Neuroscientist (Dr. Tara Swart): Evidence We Can Communicate After Death!

If what you're saying is true, then I. mean, this is a revelation. Yeah. And I. I couldn't speak about it until now that. it's possible to communicate with. someone that's passed away. And I'm saying it from the point of view. of being a neuroscientist and a. psychiatrist. And it's taboo because we. are afraid that people think we're going. insane. I mean, I've been part of teams. that have locked people up and had them. injected with stuff against their will. because of things they were saying. that's not that dissimilar to things. I've experienced. So, I wanted to find. out as much science as I could to try to.

back it up. And do you think you found. the answer? >> Yeah. How sure are you? >> 100%. And the things I found out are. going to shock you. The floor is yours. Okay. So, I'm Dr. Tara Swart. I'm a. neuroscientist and a medical doctor who. specialized in psychiatry. And I lost my. beloved husband to leukemia almost 4. years ago. 2 days before our fourth wedding. anniversary. And everything I believed. in. had gone wrong. I was just totally lost and broken. But. then, I started getting signs from my.

husband. And in my desperation, I did. consult a couple of mediums. But not. being impressed by them, I ended up. thinking, "If it's possible to. communicate with someone that's passed. away, and I am all about optimizing my. brain, then I should be able to do it. myself." So, I went down a rabbit hole. And what I've uncovered in this research. is going to have a really beneficial. effect on a lot of people. Why? Because. it means that we are capable of so much. more than what we think the human mind. is capable of. >> So, listen, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to try and ask the questions. and challenge you in ways that I think.

the viewer might challenge you. I want. you to ask me those questions. I see messages all the time in the. comment section that some of you didn't. realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you. could do me a favor and double-check if. you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple It's the free thing that. anybody that watches this show. frequently can do to help us here to. keep everything going in this show in. the trajectory it's on. So, please do. double-check if you subscribed and uh. thank you so much because in a strange.

way you are you're part of our history. and you're on this journey with us and I. appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank. you. Dr. Tara Swart, good to see you again. You, too. Thank. you for coming back. You were our most. viewed guest on the show of all time. Our last conversation did just over 20. million views and downloads, which is. pretty staggering, but you're back to. talk about something entirely different. this time. >> Mhm. Which is this idea of science, which. kind of intertwines with all of your.

work on neuroscience that you've done. throughout your career. My first question to you is what is it. that you think you know that the vast. majority of people don't quite. understand, comprehend, or have accepted. yet. And take me right back to the sort. of first principles of. that thinking. I believe that we are capable of so much. more than what we think the human mind. is capable of now. And I believe that. the brain actually filters down the. capability of the mind so that we can. exist on this material plane. And.

things that I found out during research. for The Science is going to shock you. The abilities that we have that we're. not aware of are way beyond what you. might even imagine right now. In what. departments and facets of my life? Let's just start with something really. simple. How many senses do you think we. have? Five. I can I can smell, I can. touch, um I can hear, I can see. Um. is it five though? I think Yeah, five. Is it five? Have you heard of a sixth. sense?

Being able to see ghosts and stuff? Okay. So, I think most people would. agree that we have five senses. And some. people would say, "Isn't there something. like a sixth sense?" And I don't think. it's agreed what that might be. So, I. actually did a literature review of. several pieces of research about how. many senses humans have. And we actually have 34 as we currently. understand it. 34? And so, what does this mean? Like, what. is the cuz you're making an assertion. here? What is the assertion that you're. making, and what does that mean for the.

material sort of uh consequences of my. life? I'm making hypothesis based on both the. analogy of the observable universe and. the fact that we have this expanded. suite of senses to challenge you to. understand that you are capable of much. more than you think you are. And you. know, you're a really good case in point. for me because you love rationality and. data and science, and you don't really. love intuition and. the you know, the unknown, the unseen. So, you know, I think if I can convince.

you of anything by the end of this. podcast, then. the impact that that could have on. society, I think, is huge. I mean, the. things I found out are going to shock. you. What do you mean by that? I, as you know, was a was a psychiatrist. in the past. So, I'm able to diagnose. people and say whether they have a. mental illness or not. In the past 4 years, I've been keeping a secret, and. there were times in that 4 years that I.

had to ask myself if I was in clinical. depression, if I was psychotic, if I was manic, if. the way that my consciousness was. expanding, I mean, Steve, I've I've been part of. teams that have locked people up and. put, you know, had them injected with stuff. against their will because of things. they were saying. That's not that. dissimilar to things I've experienced in. the last 4 years. So, I guess we better get into the secret.

because I sat here with you almost 2. years ago now, and we had a fantastic. conversation, but there was something you didn't tell. my audience when we had that. conversation that reached more than 20. million people. There was something at. that moment in time that you didn't tell. me, which was this secret you've been. keeping. What is the secret, Tara? Um. I lost my beloved husband to leukemia. almost 4 years ago. And I've written this book which. mentions my personal story, so.

and I trust you. So, I really wanted to. come back on. the podcast and just explain a little. bit to people about what's been going on. for me for the last 4 years. So, your husband. Robin. You met him 2016. And he passed he passed away from. leukemia in. 2021. >> 2021. Now, from 2021 when he passed. away, what what happened in your life?

What was going on in your world? If I. was a fly on the wall in your contacts, what would I have seen? He'd been given 2 weeks to live, but he. actually lived for 3 and 1/2 weeks. And he died 2 days before our fourth. wedding anniversary, so I was literally. reading condolence cards on my fourth. wedding anniversary. If it wasn't for the people that I have. around me who became like a fortress, I don't think I would be here today. You know, never having had that. experience before, it was just so so.

devastating. Um. and even though I'm a neuroscientist and. a psychiatrist, I just. I just was like like totally lost and. broken. And then. I started seeing robins in the garden. every single time I went to the window, both in Hampshire and London. I've never ever seen so many robins in. my life, like not before or since. I. still see them sometimes, but. I noticed it. I thought.

of course, that's what I want to see. I. have no idea what it means if anything. Um. and then about 6 weeks after he passed. away, I was asleep. and I heard a noise in the distance and. we had been burgled once, so I went to. check it wasn't the alarm in the. garages. Couldn't work out what it was, thought. maybe it was birds in the distance, went. back to sleep, it was about 4:00 a.m. And then I got woken up. by a massive thump to my shoulder.

I wouldn't demonstrate it on you because. it would be too much for me to hit you. that hard. It wasn't like a tap. So, opened my eyes. and I could see next to my bed. a very vague, hazy version of Robin as. if he was pushing himself through. treacle to be seen. And I was just transfixed and I saw him. become more and more clear. I could see the outline of his hair and. his face and then suddenly he just.

dissolved from the top down and my eyes. went like this and I remember seeing his. shins and his feet. And I was like up on. my elbow watching and I I just gasped. out loud. In my desperation, I did consult a. couple of mediums. And again, I had that dual conversation. I said to myself, this is the kind of. thing that crazy, desperate people do. And within the same breath, it's okay. for me to be crazy and desperate right. now. I've lost my best friend, my life.

partner, like my everything I thought. about how the world worked has crashed. around me. And I ended up think, you know, being. not being impressed by the mediums and. just at some point, I can't even. remember when now, thinking, if it's. possible to communicate with someone. that's. passed away. And he was my husband and my best. friend. And I am all about optimizing my brain. and expanding my consciousness, then I. should be able to do it myself. That's.

that's the start of my journey that I've. written about in signs. And do you think you found the answer? >> Yeah. How sure are you? 100%. I mean if if if what you're saying is. true then. that's a pretty I mean that's a. revelation, right? So many people have. lost lost people or. um. have gone through different types of. loss in their life and it you're telling. me that through. the work you've done over the last. couple of years and the research you've. done.

you understand how to communicate with. them in some capacity? Mhm. And you're 100% sure? 100%. So listen, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going. to I'm going to. I'm going to I'm going to challenge you. in ways that I think um. the viewer might. challenge you sat at home. So I'm going. to try and ask the questions that the. viewer might ask because there's you. know people. the I this idea is quite a significant. perspective shifting one. So my job in. this conversation, although these are. sensitive matters matters of course is.

just to try and play devil's advocate. where I can. I just I want to say that you know you. know me Yeah, I know you. >> know that you've asked me to come back. on the podcast several times and I've. come when I'm ready. Yeah. So I want you. to ask me those questions. >> Yeah. So when does this journey begin. then? So this you suffer this tragic. loss in your life. You go to the. mediums. You're let down by them. Where does this. begin? Where does your research your. your journey of discovery begin? It starts with this decision to um.

you know, try to. communicate with him myself. There's a realization at some point that. it's not a one-way thing that when. people pass away, they also have to. learn. So it's it's it's like two people. having to learn a language to speak to. each other. Like two people who speak a. different language having to learn a. language that they can both speak. That's that's how it felt. Obviously as a scientist, I then wanted. to find out as much science as I could.

to to try to back it up which really. comes down to the science of whether. the mind or the psyche or the soul can. exist separately from the body. Mhm. And I will say that way before I even. started thinking about this stuff, just. the the moment that he died, which he. died in front of me, once he'd actually passed away, I. remember a really strong feeling of. looking at his body and just knowing. that wasn't him. And that the essence of who he was, I. didn't know where it was, but it was not. there lying in that bed.

And when did you. realize that you were going to start to. collect research and do research on this. idea of being able to communicate in. ways that most people don't realize we. can communicate through signs? And also, when you talk about being able to. communicate through. these 30-plus senses, is that just with. the dead or is that with each other? Like, can I communicate through you. know, is there other ways that I can tap. into these senses that you discovered. through your research. that will help me be more effective with.

the living, too? Mhm. I mean, I think it starts with yourself. So, I think that the fact that if you're. not even aware that you've got 34. senses, then you're obviously not. consciously tapping into. something that you're not aware of. And and some of them are non-conscious. senses anyway. Um things like the pH of. your blood or like the balance of oxygen. and carbon dioxide in your blood. You're. you know, you're not going to be. conscious of those. You can't. necessarily exert much control over. them, although obviously if you slow. down your breathing or you do a certain. type of breath work, it it could have an.

impact on those things. The conclusion. that I came to, so like I said, I went to the brink a. few times. I went to the brink. Let me give you the first example. I. realized that the first anniversary was. coming up on October 26th. And around, you know, a couple of months. before that, I was doing the best that I. had been doing so far, but I was very. aware this anniversary was coming, and I. wanted to prepare myself mentally. But from the 4th of October, I suddenly like was in aches and pains.

all over my body, which actually lasted. for 6 or 7 weeks and it was accompanied. by me feeling so depressed. that I actually had to look in the. mirror and like go through the criteria. for clinical depression and work out if. I was actually depressed or not. Um. and I didn't meet all the criteria, but. I was in this physical pain. I could not. understand why. I went for a massage. It was so painful. I didn't go again for a year. So eventually I looked through my um. diary or calendar on my phone.

and I looked back to October 4th, which. was the day that it started, and that was the day that I'd taken him. home to die. That was the day I took him home from. hospital. I didn't remember that date, but clearly my body had and the trauma. was just re-emerging as like physical. pain. Um. and I only realized quite a lot later. that I had to to do some somatic work to. actually get rid of. the last bits of trauma that. um talking therapy can't actually get. to. Somatic work. So body body work,

whether that's massage or dance or art. or craniosacral therapy or. tai chi, you know, like anything. physical. Because basically there's an area in the. brain. It's actually inside, so I can't. really show it to you on this, but it's. kind of inside there. And that part of the brain is to do with. articulating speech. and it basically gets shut down by. trauma. So those sort of phrases like I'm. speechless or I'm dumbfounded or I have. no words. indicates the fact that there may be.

residual trauma that's held in your body. that you can't actually articulate and. get out and solve through talking. therapy. So it requires some kind of physical. therapy. So that was obviously to do. with my um sense of pain. And it took me a little while to kind of. put together what that might mean by. really like tapping into why it was my. body. um manifesting pain to to sort of remind. me of something or show me something. But also, in the first couple of weeks. after.

um, Robin's body. Robin's body was taken away the morning. after he died. And it was uh. just under 2 weeks till the cremation. In that time, I would wake up in the. morning and I would be absolutely. freezing cold, like shaking and. shivering. And it was October, it wasn't. like midwinter. And I would blast up the heating. When. someone else was in the house, I would. realize it it was like a sauna, it was. actually a bit embarrassing and had to. like, you know, turn it down and like. open some windows. And Robin actually.

hated being cold. And he would have been. in the morgue in a refrigerated drawer. that whole time. And again, I think it. was my sense of temperature that was. kind of on the same wavelength as where. I didn't consciously think of where he. was, but I was feeling freezing cold. So, it was. looking back, it was things like that. were coincidences, absolutely. But then, over time, and I'm talking a couple of. years, I could ask for specific signs. and get them. Sometimes at first it would take a.

while, and then it became like it would. happen that day. I could ask a question in my head and. get an answer. I mentioned having, you. know, sort of again being at the brink. of my sanity, having to question things. I was experiencing something called. thought insertion, which um, in. psychiatry is one of the symptoms of. schizophrenia. It's when you have a. thought in your head that you know isn't. yours. So, I was experiencing that really. vividly. But can you imagine experiencing that. and at the same time being a. psychiatrist that is is saying, "Right,

Tara, you do realize you are having like. a psychotic symptom.". And. so, in my research, one of the things I. realized that maybe, you know, if you're. going through grief and you don't know. the things that I know, you can't. articulate to yourself that grief in. many ways is like psychosis. It's changing the levels of. neurotransmitters in your head. It's. changing the electric electric and. chemical like signaling in your head. I. just have so much empathy for people. that. that have to go through that and don't.

have the wherewithal or the resources. that. that I did. Do you think one needs to cultivate. their ability to see signs? Do you think. it's like going to the gym? Totally. Totally. I've It took me years. Um and. like I said, I believe it took him years. as well. Um. So yeah, I I say it's like learning a. language, but you're right. It's like. going to the gym. And what does one need. to do in that gym to grow their. sign muscle? Well, it always starts with believing, right? >> Yeah. Um Do you think that's what one of.

the big issues in terms of being able to. access these other dimensions or. dynamics is most people just don't. believe in it? So I wouldn't I'm not even sure if I'd. say most people. I'd say a lot of people. don't believe in it. Or they secretly. do, but they're scared to talk about it. cuz they think people ridicule them. Yeah. Cuz cuz I don't know. My my brain. my brain feels like I need to have the. scientific evidence of things for me to. accept them because I think sometimes I. worry that if I don't have. scientific rigor around my beliefs, then.

I would I'm susceptible to believe. anything. And I'll believe it in a. spaghetti monster at the bottom of the. garden and I'll believe, you know, every. religion in the world and every and. everything and then I'm unanchored and. then I blow around like a plastic bag in. the wind and then I have no orientation. Yeah. >> Yeah. So I think rigor is. the basis of my beliefs. I have to have. some sort of scientific evidence. I know you do. Yeah. Um It's not to say I'm not open-minded. because I've had my mind changed so many. times in my life that one would be. dumb now to not be open-minded and to.

not listen. I agree with you about. rigor. I completely agree with. My. entire career has been based on that, but. I just you know, I was pushed up against. a wall, so I had to. think differently. And I think the. question that I posed to myself is is. what if? You had to think differently. So, um the psychologist Carl Jung talks. about um when he talks about the. collective unconscious, he talks about. those basically three main things that. all humans experience, which is birth, life, and death. And so, we have this.

common experience, which is actually. part of our inherited gene and brain. structure. Um so, everyone who's ever. lived will experience those things. But if we look at ancient wisdom, for a start, we are made of the carbon and hydrogen. and oxygen and nitrogen that came from. the Big Bang. So, we're all made of the. same thing. Our ancestors lived in the. cycle with nature. I think us actually. having broken our connection to nature. is a huge part of why we're so. disconnected and unhappy.

So, if you think of the life cycle of a. salmon, for example, it, you know, it goes through its life. cycle, and eventually its bones. contribute to the phosphorus on the um. floor of the forest. So, it never really. goes away. Um. in many other ways, our ancestors. repeatedly saw the cycles of nature, and. therefore. always kind of knew that everything gets. renewed and nothing ever completely goes. away. And. I think that's a really important thing. to return to. I think,

you know, when we question things, which. you're absolutely right to do, I think we have to look at things that. we didn't think were true that we now. know are true as just ways of being open. to the fact that things in the future. might become obvious or known that. aren't known now. I think that is an. important place of being open-minded to. to sit at. And so, for example, um. want to hear about slime mold?

You tell me if that's something I want. to hear about. So, slime mold are single-celled. organisms like amoeba. who go about their daily life on their. own very happily as long as their basic. needs are met. But if for example, they're facing. potential starvation, they will come. together and form a slug because the. slug can move towards your vegetable. patch, you know, a new food source, and. they can survive. Equally, if they are.

if they are facing potential um. extinction, they will come together and form a a. sporing body like a mushroom. So, that's got a stalk. and a fruiting body that can release. spores that will go into the atmosphere. to all different places where these new. baby organisms can can grow and thrive. But if you think about it, the single cells in the stalk. are sacrificing themselves for the. greater good cuz there's no chance that.

they're. they're going to get released into the. atmosphere as a spore cuz they're in the. stalk. So, some of them actually cheat and. climb up the stalk to get into the. fruiting body and displace other cells. from the fruiting body. So, things like that and for example, the mycorrhizal network, which is how. mushrooms and mycelium feed the roots of. trees, even trees that have been felled. can be kept alive for centuries because. the my- mycorrhizal network, which is.

the connection between mycelium and tree. roots, can bring water and sugar to that. tree stump to keep it alive. And trees and mycelium don't even only. do it for the same species, they do it. because they're part of the entire. forest and it's symbiotic relationship. And they care about each other. Things like this would have been like. thought to be fantastical 10 years ago. Um you know, we're in in LA at the. moment and I saw the driverless car for. the first time. Now, when I was growing.

up watching sci-fi, I never thought I'd see that in my life. So, that's all I'm saying that. and and I'm saying it from the point of. view of being a cognitive scientist and. I'm talking about the nature of. consciousness. I'm not talking about. other not asking you to believe, you. know, other parts of science, but based. on the fact that. we don't know everything. We've learned. loads of things that we thought weren't. true before. I strongly believe there's a benefit to.

humanity of raising this kind of. question and having this conversation. which. I ask you why it's a taboo conversation. What, you know, why shouldn't we be. enlightened? Why shouldn't we feel. better? Why shouldn't we be more. connected? Whatever we've been doing up until now. certainly hasn't been working. When when was it that you made the. decision that you were going to write a. book about. this called The Signs? Was there a. particular moment in this process where. you realized that you were going to to.

dig deeper and that then you were. ultimately going to share this with the. world? I wasn't intending to write a book at. all, but I'd got to the point where I. had something that I could share with. people that I actually thought would be. useful. And at this point you're. communicating with Robin. on a daily basis. >> On a daily basis. >> Yeah. Give me some color to that. What does. that mean? Give me some examples if you. can. Well, either will be that like I'll. ask a question in my mind and the answer. will come in my mind, but I know it's. not my own thought. Or. I'll just get a direct like message from. him in my mind that I know isn't me, but.

mostly it's the signs. So, I've talked. talked to you about the first. anniversary and how hard that was. By. the time of the second anniversary, I was actually in America. and I'd been filming in studio for a. week and then I was on the road on the. Navajo Nation. and that was due to I was due to fly out. of the Navajo Nation on the second. anniversary of Robin's passing. And.

on by that point, I was feeling a bit. like I'd completely burnt out. And I had a choice about how to. re-emerge. Um, you know, whether that. was going to be in a good way or I. wasn't going to be able to make it. Um, and I had this analogy of a phoenix. rising from the flames in my mind. So, on that trip, I said, "Darling, send me the sign of a phoenix." You said. that to who? To Robin, in my head. And I I chose the phoenix cuz it's.

really unusual. So, it's not like if I. said, you know, a dog, I'm probably. going to see a dog on the pavement every. day. But I chose something that is not. an easy thing to see. And I was actually in Oklahoma City. where, you know, you wouldn't expect. necessarily to see like something. unusual. Every single day between my. hotel and the studio, I went through. Chinatown and I passed a restaurant. called the Phoenix Garden with a big. emblazoned. like, you know, sign. And. on the way there, I had had an indirect.

flight from Boston and the flight. leaving Boston was late, so I missed my. connection in Chicago and I had to spend. a night in Chicago. And then I was, you know, late for. filming and stuff. And so, when I was. leaving. to go to LA, I was leaving on a on a. Sunday. And from the Monday onwards, I had a. podcast every single weekday in LA. And so, the team said to me, "We know. that you cannot miss that flight. We are. not going to put you on an on an. indirect flight. We absolutely promise.

you direct flight to LA, so you're fine. from Monday onwards.". We were in the middle of nowhere for. like a week and basically, my flight. wasn't booked cuz we didn't know which. airport we were going to be at. We. arrived on the eve of the anniversary of. Robin passing and my flight was booked. that day and it was from Flagstaff in. the Navajo Nation to LA, Flying on the day of his anniversary, no. direct flights. I had to fly through. Phoenix, Arizona on the day of his. anniversary.

You probably heard of that old analogy. of when you buy a car, you end up seeing. the car everywhere on the road. Like I. buy buy a new car and then I go. everywhere and it seems like everybody's. got my car because of Do they call it. confirmation bias in science, in. psychology? Where once you've got. something in your head, you're more. likely to see that thing. Mhm. I think. they've done studies on this where if. you are exposed to something or you're. told to think about something, you'll. see it more in the world. How do you. separate what you're saying from that. proven psychological phenomenon? I don't. I say use it to your advantage.

But how do you know that wasn't what was. happening in your life? Because if you. thought about the word Phoenix and then. over the course of a couple of days, you're looking at everything, but you're. only going to register the things that. are emotionally reg- resonant. You know, I might have seen Phoenix a. lot of time over the last 7 days. And it. means nothing to you. Yeah, so I didn't. I didn't register it. Again, I would say. the number of times this has happened. There is this the sort of like. how narrow I make the criteria. So, you. know, sometimes I say I need to see a.

button or a symbol of a button or the. word button, but it's got to have. happened three times by 11:00 p.m. tomorrow. Um and one of my friends says that, you. know, we share something which is if you. see a pair of lions. Um and we send each other pictures of. it, but she says it has to be if you. went out of your way and you walked a. different way and then you saw them. If. it's like you know, the normal way that. you go or somewhere that you know that. they exist, that doesn't count. It has. to be if you went out of your way. So, I. had a previous um thing with Robin which.

is about the figure of eight or in the. infinity symbol. Um and there's a story. in the book of how that was cropping up. for me when I actually met him. But there was a day recently where I had. some space that I had three spaced out. meetings in the day. So, I thought I'll. take the opportunity to walk for an hour. between them all. >> Mhm. And for the last meeting of the day, I ended up walking past um. UCH, which is the University College. Hospital, where he was having treatment.

And that had been a really traumatic. time for me when he was in hospital. there. And I have I will have to say I kind of. avoided that area since then. I'll tell. you about a particular story that was. like really traumatizing for me. Um so on this walk to um where I was. going for the evening for a book launch. event, I ended up walking past the. hospital. And I and I actually said in my head. like "Why would you make that happen to. me? Like why why do I have to walk past. that building? I never want to see that.

building again in my life.". And again, I said you have to send me a. sign. And um by the time I got to Euston. Station, so you know, you can people who. don't know can Google this, it's not. very far, there was an elastic band in the figure. of eight sign on the pavement, and that. means something to me. Um. So the thing about this this. confirmation bias thing is it it's. dependent on the reticular activating. system, which is the system of your brain that. filters out what's not crucial to your.

survival and then filters in what it. wants you to notice. And so. actually, one of the things I've written. about in the book is the art of. noticing. Because really, we live in this world. where the li- you know, life is passing. you by at 100 mph. You're not noticing. things that could actually be crucial to. you thriving rather than you just. surviving. And in this model called shared trait. vulnerability, which falls under the.

field of um research called. neuroaesthetics, so basically, creativity is a positive. personality trait, right? >> Mhm. But there is a a high correlation. between creativity and psychopathology, which is mental illness, particularly. depression, schizophrenia, and. alcoholism. And there are quite a few high-profile. examples of um creative people who had. mental illnesses, like Alexander. McQueen, Kurt Cobain, Van Gogh. So, what that.

shows is that there's an area of overlap. of three particular ways of thinking. that are underpinned by neurology. that are the reasons that people with. mental illness are so creative. And they. are basically. um. hyperconnectivity. So, that's that's two things. That's. joining the dots in the material world. of things that aren't obvious to other. people, but it's also hyperconnectivity inside.

the brain. So, if you think about all. these lobes, So happy. If you think about all these. lobes, the more lobes that are firing at the. same time, and there's also a cortex. that's known as the association cortex. So, that one, you know, these lobes can. be firing, but they're not necessarily. connecting up with each other. The more. interconnected all this firing is in the. brain, the more the brain opens up to. new ideas, and so that underpins. creativity. And also, this usually.

really involves the visual cortex, which. is in the occipital lobes, and that's. why sometimes people, whether it's. through psychedelics or, you know, sort. of sort of altered states of. consciousness through creativity, can. can see things that they didn't see. before. Mhm. There's also something. called novelty salience, which is. noticing new things, um or just noticing. things of importance that you would. otherwise have filtered out. And there's. something called um. attenuated latent inhibition or low. latent inhibition, which is to do with.

that filter, and it means that the filter allows more. things in than it normally does. >> Mhm. So, you can see we've got. hyperconnection, we've got noticing more. things, and we've got the filter like. loosening and allowing more things in. Now, if you've got a high IQ, high working memory, and you've got cognitive flexibility, which is you can think, you know, out of. the box, that's a really good thing. If you've got a low IQ, you've got. deficits in your working memory,

and you've got what's called. perseveration, which is you just go over. the same thought process process over. and over again, that can lead to you having a. psychological crisis. So, I took that model and thought, "If. grief is like psychosis, and I'm. currently in a very vulnerable state, is creativity a conduit for me to get. not only back to the state that I was in. before, but into a state of expanded. awareness where I can loosen the filter. as I choose as I choose fit. I can. notice things that I would have passed.

by before, and I can think differently about how my. mind works, how the world works, possibly what happens after someone. passes away.". And then I went and, you know, looked. into near-death experiences and terminal. lucidity and dark retreats. Like I said, I went down a rabbit hole. And what did. you find in that rabbit hole? At the border of life and death, usually. within 1 to 24 hours of death, someone who has.

whose brain hasn't been functioning, who. can't remember the names of their own. children, suddenly becomes completely lucid and. says, "Steven, darling, come over here. Let me, you know, let's have a nice like. mother-son chat.". And then that gives a lot of people. hope, but usually that means it's an. hour or 23 hours till the person's going. to die. We can't explain that. How can a. brain that's irreversibly damaged. suddenly function completely normally? There is no explanation for that. With the near-death experiences,

I was particularly compelled by three. stories. Dr. Mary Neal, an orthopedic surgeon, she's in that Netflix documentary. Surviving Death. She was submerged underwater for 15 or. 20 minutes. She should never have been. able to be resuscitated. She describes her whole journey of going. to another realm, seeing, you know, a. being of light, being told that her life. isn't over, she has to turn back and. return to. the physical world, even though she. could see her bloated body and her.

friends trying to reach her to. resuscitate her and they couldn't. Dr. Eben Alexander, who wrote Proof of. Heaven. He is a doctor. He was an atheist. He was in a coma with bacterial. meningitis and was pronounced clinically. dead. And then basically came back and. said that he saw heaven. And he now believes in a God that is. benign, that cares about the future of. humanity. So, for me as a doctor, hearing these stories from other doctors. was really, really convincing.

And then there's one story that um Dr. Grayson told me, he's a professor of. psychiatry at University of Virginia, who has done 50 years of research into. near-death experiences. And he told me the story of a patient in. ICU. who kept going into cardiac arrest. And he had a primary nurse, who was a. young um 20-year-old nurse and they had. a really close bond. And one weekend, she was she had time. off for the weekend and he had a.

different nurse looking after him. And he went into cardiac arrest and he. had a near-death experience. And in that near-death experience, he saw his primary nurse. She said to. him, "Your life isn't over, you have to. go back and get better. And please tell my parents I'm sorry. about the red MG.". So, he wakes up in ICU, he's got this. replacement nurse looking after him. And he says, "The strangest thing just. happened. I um.

had this experience of being in this. other world. I saw um my primary nurse, and she said I had to come back. And she. also said tell my parents sorry about. the red MG. So, the temporary nurse starts bursting. into tears, runs out of the room. He has. no idea why. Someone comes in and says what's just. happened. He explains, and they tell him. that his primary nurse was given a red. MG for her 21st birthday, took it out for a test run, crashed it. into a tree, and died.

Now, he didn't know she was dead. But he saw her on the other side, and. she told him to come back. And the guy that told you this story was. who relevant to the patient who said. that? Dr. Bruce Greyson. He um has done. 50 years of research on near-death. experiences. He's got over 5,000. recorded cases of patients of his own. that he's looked after that had. near-death experiences. And he also. shared with me with me the numbers of of. uh.

cases that other people have on. databases. So, you know, we're looking. at over 10,000 cases globally recorded. at the moment. What is it that you believe based on. those near-death experiences like the. red MG story? >> Mhm. And based on this phenomenon of terminal. lucidity? So, Professor Alexander Batthyany who. wrote Threshold about terminal lucidity. put it really nicely when he said, "Maybe at the border of life and death, we see something that is true all along,

but we don't, for whatever reason, see it or. acknowledge it whilst we're alive and. well, which is that the mind and body. can operate independently of each. other.". It is quite It is quite shocking. There's this case from 2009. An 82-year-old woman with Alzheimer's. disease who was nonverbal and. non-responsive and had no apparent. recognition of her surroundings or. families for years. And then one day before her death, she. suddenly sat up in hospital, looked.

around, and recognized her daughter by. name, spoke clearly, reminisced about. the past, thanked her family for caring. for her. Her speech was coherent, her. memory was intact, and her personality recognizable as. though she had never been ill. She fell. asleep that evening and died peacefully. during the night. And what do you think's happening there? What do you think's happening there? It's possibly, you know, partially. explained by a a surge in. neurochemicals, but it's not explained. by how can those neurochemicals act if.

the physical neurons and synapses are. damaged? So, there is no explanation. The only explanation. is that the mind is not emergent from. material matter. It's not. The The mind, the thoughts, the. emotions, the psyche cannot be solely. emerging from physical matter. That's. the only explanation from what we. understand so far. And so, what is it that you now believe? You believe that our souls and our. bodies are two separate things. And.

where does our soul live if it's not. living inside of me? So, like where is Robin? Mhm. So, I believe that, you know, whether. whether you want to call it the. universe, consciousness, um collective consciousness, Godhead, cosmic soup, I don't The word for it. isn't important. There's There's. somewhere. that that energy goes and it still. exists in some form. And if you believe. in reincarnation, then you may believe. that it then enters another body as a.

vessel and, you know, has a different. life. Um. But. it doesn't go away. How do you know? I'm going to say something that you're I. know you're not going to like, but. I know because I feel it personally. I. feel it from I feel it like with the. person I've been closest to in my entire. life. Who I know would never leave me if they. didn't absolutely have to. But I can back that up.

To the extent of I can I can say you. can't prove that this isn't true. I can back that up with everything that. I put in the book. And I'm not the only. one. Dr. David Eagleman at Stanford. says, you know, this idea of the brain. being like a radio. and receiving signals from outside. We. can't prove it, but we categorically. cannot say it's not true. Professor Donald Hoffman suggests that. space-time is not the basis of how the. universe works. Suggests that. consciousness is the basis of how the. universe works. We can't prove that's.

not true. And I find that really. exciting. I mean, as a scientist. you're supposed to challenge the status. quo. You're supposed to be curious. You. can't as a scientist believe that. everything we know now is all there is. There's no point to being a scientist if. that's what you believe. I asked you this question about the gym. earlier on about is it kind of like. training in the gym? Are there things. you think people could do to heighten. their ability. to speak to. loved ones that might have passed or to. heighten their ability to tap into. signs? So, I go through this in the book and.

and I chose the order quite carefully. So, I talk about neuroaesthetics, which is. you know, noticing beauty basically, if. not like. actually engaging in the arts. There's a. lot of evidence for engaging in the arts. in terms of like um increasing your. novelty salience, which is noticing new. things, which is part of the journey of. opening up that filter. Mhm. Um. and then there's a whole chapter on. nature because I think a lot of signs. come from nature, like. butterflies, robins, um.

sort of, you know, spiral formations, cloud formations. So, noticing nature. more can help you, you know, also to. receive these signs. And then community. is a huge part of it because, you know, if I had this conversation with you and. you totally shut me down and said, "It's. not provable. This is ridiculous. I'm. not airing this episode." That would. have a very different like effect on me. to you even being open to like asking me. challenging questions that I welcome, but also. engaging in this conversation and and.

sort of, you know, maybe. feels a little bit like maybe. questioning, you know, some things that. you might do differently. Um. So, those are three very important parts. of like sort of part two of the book. Part one is more about what are signs, what are you missing, you know, have you. been receiving signs already? One of the. things that I when I was going through. my sort of um transition from like being. religious to being agnostic, I'd say, cuz I wouldn't call myself an atheist, is. I was watching all these um. atheist minds debate and talk and stuff.

And one of the things one of them said. is that if coincidence didn't happen in. our lives, then that would be a miracle. Like statistically, mathematically, if. it's sometimes you don't think of Dave. and then the phone. that would actually be more. mathematically improbable. than it happening sometimes. Mhm. If you. think about, you know, the if if you had. this on a like a distribution curve or. something, it is likely. mathematically that really unlikely. things will happen sometimes. >> Okay. Right? So, I I've always had that. in my head as a way to sort of.

rationalize coincidence. So, when. coincidence happens, I think, well, probabilistically, really unlikely things have to happen. and if they never happen, then that's a miracle. Okay. Does that. make sense? >> Yeah, it makes sense. >> Like mathematically, you'd say like. likely things happen often, unlikely things happen less often, >> Yeah. extremely unlikely things happen. way less often. >> Yeah. That's like the nature of like. maths, right? So, when extremely. unlikely things happen, I say, "Actually, that makes sense because.

probabilistically those things happen. infrequently. They're not happening. every single day." Like right now, I'm. thinking of I can name 10 people. I. guarantee when I go to my phone, none of. those 10 people have text me. But if I do that every day, one day I'm. going to say, "Hey Steve, checking in.". Which makes sense because of the the. laws of probability. >> want you to do that. I want you to just. like. be open to naturally thinking of someone. and seeing if that does happen or, you. know, kind of or asking for a sign and. seeing if it comes into your life. That that's. That's all I'm asking. Like what, you.

know, just try it. It's not going to hurt you. And I'm not just saying that to you. I'm. saying it to everyone. And how do you think that would benefit. me? I think it makes you believe in. something bigger than yourself. Yeah. Um. >> And why is that so important? Because I think a life where all you're. trying to do is get through and meet. your needs is. life can be better than that. Um. I think a life where you feel more. connected to yourself, to others, to.

something greater gives you purpose. Um. There's a lot of research that shows. that having a purpose that transcends. just yourself is actually really healthy. and important. And what is that for you. now, that transcendent layer in your. life? How do you define it? Is it a. religion? Is it something else? It's. definitely not religion. Um. I guess it's spirituality and, you know, a form which will mean different things. to different people. It's definitely about caring for. humanity. Is it a god?

A creator? For me, no. Um but 85% of people globally believe in. religion and a god, so it's important. Um. I think for me it's. about. giving like a voice of relevance and. helping people to feel seen and heard. cuz I think that's very lacking. And, you know, I'm in the enormously. privileged position that you have given. me of being able to do that, and I want. to use that in a really like positive.

way. How does this overlap with or sit. alongside what people call intuition? Cuz you talk about that as well in the. book. Yeah. Um. I know there's so much like there's. still like so much else I want to say. Just keep going. >> So intuition is I mean intuition is what. it is. It's accessing inner wisdom, right? But I've I've included it as a. really important part of the book. because I believe that it's a way to. receive and interpret your signs. But um.

I just want to go back to something I. said earlier which is about how. trauma can be stored in your body and. you know to some extent. it can't be retrieved through talking. therapy cuz there aren't words for it. because it's actually embedded into the. tissues of your body. There's a really exciting new hypothesis. for how that might work called the. serotonin hypothesis. So previously. I think it would make sense that if you. know for example when when Robin was in. hospital. I would like.

sit in a very hunched over position and. my fists would be clenched cuz I felt. like I was fighting for his life all the. time and if I relaxed for a millisecond. he could die. Um. so it makes sense to me that that. those postural issues would show up for. me later and you know in terms of like. aches and pains and you know perhaps. sort of well not perhaps my as my. Pilates and yoga teachers keep telling. me like issues with you know certain. parts of my spine and stuff. But um the serotonin hypothesis is very.

exciting as a neuroscientist because. a lot of people have heard of Bessel van. der Kolk's work and the book The Body. Keeps the Score. And it makes sense kind of intuitively. that the body does keep the score and. and like I've said there's no amount of. trauma that you can't you can't. articulate verbally. So we believe we. understand there are imprints of that in. the body. Mhm. But we have we've never really. understood how that works. Um and. we, you know, I've talked before, I.

think with you, about intuition. through a process called Hebbian. learning, which is neurons that fire. together, wire together, gets pushed. deeper and deeper into neurons from the. outer cortex, the limbic system, the. brainstem, into gut neurons, and that's. why intuition is called gut instinct. And we understand that through stress. postures, you could have bracing patterns in your. muscles for like the trauma that you've. experienced. Fascia is the connective tissue that. holds your entire body together, all. your organs, all your muscles.

And until fairly recently, fascia was thought of as a vestigial. organ. It was cut away in surgery. without thinking of any that it would. have any effect on the rest of your. body. Now, it's understood more to actually be. an an organ of its own and an important. one. And the serotonin hypothesis. goes some way to explain how the level. of constriction of capillaries and the. amount of nutrients that's released to. skin, fascia, and muscle.

is a mechanism for how trauma is held in. the body. And with that in mind, what do we do to get rid of that trauma. held in the body? Physical activities. Um, so dancing, singing, drumming, humming, chanting, massage, yoga, craniosacral therapy. And. you'll notice that the ones I started. with are, you know, very related to. ancient wisdom. So, our ancestors knew. this. Um, for example, in ancient Greek.

um. uh ancient Greek burials, they would. wail and beat their chests. So, they. were getting rid of grief by. like screaming, but also by beating. their muscles and letting like trauma. exit their body. I'm very well aware that. there's probably a lot of people who. have sent this conversation to a friend. who is struggling right now. Mhm. And. that that friend who has lost a loved. one, potentially a husband, potentially. a wife, potentially, you know, God. forbid a child or a grandparent or.

something, is listening to this because. they are in search of answers for their. own healing. Mhm. You've been there. Mhm. You may still be. there in some. degree. If you were to advise them on. their own healing journey, what advice. would you give them? The first thing would be. to not repress or deny how they're. feeling and, you know, really.

feel the emotions that that have to come. along with grief. Um. I've, you know, I had amazing talking. therapy, which definitely helped me a. lot. So, if people have access to that, um professionally, then great. If not, then, you know, if you've got close. friends that you can talk to, then. talking it out does help. But, I've really learned that there's a. limit to how much that helps and that. some sort of. physical therapy, um is really helpful. as part of it. Those would be the.

basics, I would say. Time in nature has been so healing for. me. Um. some form of creative outlet, whether. it's making or beholding. So, you don't. have to be good at art if if you. draw, you know, a picture of how you're. feeling emotionally or a sketch of your. loved one, it doesn't have to be good. You get benefits from doing that. It's. an out creative for your grief. That's. probably the second level and, you know, the third level to me is if you've got. any inclination to receive signs, um or.

just be open to. you know, white feather landing at your. doorstep. Um. or a bird coming to visit you or. something that means something to you, then. that can bring a lot of comfort and. guidance and joy. And you also assert that things like. being in nature creativity. honing into our intuition increase the. probability of us receiving these signs. Mhm. Well, receiving and being able to. interpret in a way that's meaningful for. you. Gut instinct.

Um in the book you talk about how. strengthening one's gut health can have. a an impact on gut in instinct. >> Mhm. Explain that to me. So, the the body is basically the. physical foundation for um you know, all. of your senses to be able to to flourish. to your higher mental faculties to be. able to flourish and ultimately for you. know, whatever spiritual experience you. have of life to to be able to be at its.

fullest and best as well. So, taking. care of the physical foundations is. really important. And um you know, we. could talk about all the usual things. like sleep and diet and exercise, mindfulness, stress management. But, I. want to really focus strongly on the the. gut brain access because a lot of new. research has come up since I wrote the. source. So, it's actually you know, we know a. lot about this bi-directional. communication between the brain and the. gut. It's actually a three-way system.

which is the brain, the gut itself, the. gut neurons, and the gut microbiome. which is trillions of bacteria and fungi. and you know, organisms that. um. are basically determining the health of. our entire system cuz they're connected. to our immune system, to our skin, to our oral microbiome, and. and the brain. So, the way that you. the most direct access you have to your.

brain is through your gut. The gut is. the most direct way that you can. influence your brain and you can do that. through exercise, obviously diet, um. supplementation, even like um meditation and art and. music therapy have a beneficial effect. on your gut microbiome as well, which. has a knock-on effect on the neurons and. the the brain. And they communicate with. each other many ways, mostly through the. vagus nerve. What's the vagus nerve? The vagus nerve. is a cranial nerve, so it comes from.

your skull. It's Latin for wandering. because it's the longest nerve that goes. through your body. So, it goes There's. two, the right and the left, and they go. all the way from your cranium. What's my cranium? Your cranium is the. bone around your brain. Yeah. Um so, inside that, um down your neck, they go. through your diaphragm and to your. intestine. I'll put a photo up on the. screen for everybody who wants to see. where their vagus nerve is. Also other. nerves, so the nerves that innervate the. gut organs, um they're called afferent. intestinal nerves. They're also involved.

in this communication. Then there's. hormones, and there's cytokine um messages, which. are chemical messages that aren't. hormonal. Your immune system actually. also produces neurotransmitters, and. there are immune cells in your brain as. well. So, those are all the ways that we. know currently that the brain and the. gut communicate with each other. And so, what does this mean in terms of. my gut health and ways to influence my. my brain? Does it mean that I I need to. be really big on my prebiotics and my.

probiotics to make sure my my gut's. intact? And if I do that, then my. intuition will be sharper. Mhm. So, that's true, but I always like people to. understand what's behind that, not just. mindlessly take prebiotics and. probiotics. So, what we're trying to do. is reduce inflammation throughout the. system. And so, basically, because. the brain is a small organ in in our. entire system, but it uses up at least. 20% of our energy, so it's very.

vulnerable. to um. what what we call oxidative stress or. free radicals. So, every time like. there's any turnover of cells in our. brain or our body, basically as we live, the wear and tear of daily life, we. release free radicals, which are. molecules that can damage cells, particularly nerve cells. And because. the brain is has such high turnover of. energy, it's particularly vulnerable to. free radical attack. So, reducing.

inflammation and putting things that are. neuro protective around it, like certain. vitamins and minerals, is really. important. And the hippocampus part of. the brain, which um it has high cell. turnover cuz it's to do with memory, laying down memories, and obviously well. into adulthood we're still doing that, that's also very vulnerable to free. radical damage. And that's why we can. get memory and cognitive impairments and. dementias as we get older. So, the the modern Western diet causes.

something called dysbiosis, which is. that your gut isn't in a good state, and. that creates a cascade of inflammation, and releases molecules, some of which. can cross the blood-brain barrier, and. therefore cause inflammation in the. brain. So, we want to minimize that as. much as possible. And put in as many protective and. beneficial factors as possible. If we're doing that, the system's in. what we call homeostasis, which is good. balance. It's kind of starting to take. care of itself. It's got all the.

nutrients that it needs. It's hydrated. It's oxygenated. That's when you've got extra resources. to do the higher mental functions. And up until today, pretty much, I've. described those as being able to solve. complex problems, being able to think. flexibly, creatively, override your. biases. But now I'm proposing that there's more. than that that we can do. There's. accessing levels of intuition that we.

didn't know we had. Very much through. through the same mechanism of how I. described trauma being stored in the. body, hidden wisdom is also stored in the. body. It's not just in your brain. And therefore, the same therapies like. beholding and making art, humming, drumming, storytelling, dancing, yoga, just movement can help us to access that. intuition that isn't just in our brain. and our mind and take us to a next level.

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and Romans used to bury people actually. for days, and then they would come out. and be like the seers and the mystics of. that um community. But, there's most research um available. in dark retreats cuz it's still. happening today. What is a dark retreat? A dark retreat is um have you heard of. silent retreats, silent meditation? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, my girlfriend went on one. Yeah, so that's the kind of thing she. would do. So, basically, you can go away. for a few days to a few weeks, and. you're just in silence, and you're. meditating and doing breathwork most of. the time. In a dark retreat, you are in.

like pitch black for I mean, you can go. and do it for a few hours or a weekend, but it's meant to be in sevens. So, 7 to. 49 days. The monks do 49 days. If as a. you know, a person who's interested. spiritually, you wanted to do it quite. seriously, you would go for 7 days. And you would be in a room or a cave. that's got double walls, so it's. completely dark. And um.

the reason for doing this is that not. all of us can have a near-death. experience, right? So, this is a way of. emulate It's the closest way of. emulating that for anyone like you or I. to get access to the benefits of a. near-death experience. Um which I've outlined them all in the. book. So, in a dark retreat, at first, you sleep a lot because it's dark, you're releasing a lot lot of melatonin. from your pineal gland. So, you fall. asleep in darkness, you awake in. darkness, and basically, that kind of.

makes you feel more sleepy, so you sleep. a lot. After a couple of days, you start to see. like. pulsations of light. It might be like. little shooting stars or kind of just. like little sparks here and there. And then eventually, it feels like the. walls. are dimly alight. So, in complete darkness, you start to. see light.

Obviously, there's an element of like. hallucinating at this point. And so, after 3 4 5 days, you will actually. start to see animals, real or sort of. fantastical. And eventually, people see like deities. or beings like people do in near-death. experiences. Um and when people come out of these. retreats, they experience many of the. same benefits like, you know, a real. sort of.

like joy for life, less fear of death, more compassion for other people, less. fear of failing, so, you know, taking. more healthy risks. So, it it's a way. it's basically of emulating a near-death. experience. And it therefore convinces. you that there's more than you can see. in your day-to-day life and. therefore, that expands your mind in a. way that's beneficial. Yeah, it's. another. example of an altered state of. consciousness. You can also get altered. states of consciousness through.

conscious connected or holotropic breath. work and through the use of psychedelic. um. plants as well. How do we know that it's. it's not just a. changing of our neurological state or. the the chemicals in our brain that are. causing us to interpret things. differently with our senses because, you. know, we've all. I said we all many of us have. experienced having some kind of. stimulant or psychedelic or some. compound in a rave or a festival that's. made us see the world differently for a.

moment. And science would say that's. just the neurochemicals in our brain. doing different things which are. changing our perception. They wouldn't. say necessarily that it's a different. realm or a different dimension. Yeah, and I I think you're right. I. think it is that. So, as a. neuropharmacologist, I, you know, understand as much as the research says. about the It's mostly, like I said, in. in the body in the brain with. psychedelics, it's mostly 5-HT or. serotonin 2A receptors. And there's a. level of hyperconnectivity within the.

brain, particularly, as I said, in the. visual cortex here, which allows people. to see things that they don't normally. see. Um and I think the way to. apply that in your life is. that it's a glimpse into what's. possible. Mhm. Um once you've experienced that, it. could either be that you find other. natural ways of experiencing that. So, there's there's a paper I can forward to. you that shows that certain forms of.

conscious connected breathwork produce. the same effect as a moderate dose of. psilocybin. Which is magic mushrooms. >> Yes. And this um research came out after. psilocybin was banned, and practitioners. thought, "Well, what are other ways that. we can help people to achieve these. altered states of consciousness?" Um. and personally, I believe that, you. know, having like com- a completely like. awe-inspiring experience in nature, or. for me, like the ballet, particularly.

when I've been so lucky sometimes to sit. in the wings, and you just completely. feel like you're part of it. I mean, I've literally had. a spiritual experience sitting in the. wings watching, actually, it was one of. my friends, the principal dancer, dancing. Just so overwhelming. It's completely an. altered state of consciousness. Um. So, there are other There are other ways. of accessing that. Um. but I think it depends like why you want. to and what it means to you. But at minimum, these sorts of things. that I'm talking about are ways of.

understanding that. there's more to life than what we know. And how does that meaningfully change. like the concept of what happiness is. and contentment is, and like living a. good life is. So, what I think is really interesting. is that we don't actually have to. experience certain things ourselves. So, there's a lot of research that shows. that students from various different. areas of expertise who simply learn. about near-death experiences actually.

get some of the same benefits, and that. these can last for over a year later. So, understanding that when someone sees. that there's something greater than us, when someone sees the interconnectedness. of of everything, when someone. understands how. small some of their problems are in the. greater, you know, picture of things, helps people to be more compassionate, more grateful, kinder to others, um less. materialistic.

Is is really interesting, and I think. anything that we can do to help us, you know, free us from some of those. chains that I think hold us down in the. material world, particularly in the. Western world, is. it's healthy for us physically, mentally, emotionally, but it also brings in this element of. spirituality that I think is just so. lacking in the world at the moment, and. and could be so helpful, because if we. look back. at the way that our ancestors used their.

senses and their intuition to interpret. the land, like. a cloud formation could mean that rain's. coming, but it could also mean that your. ancestors were talking to you. Just seems like such a beautiful way to. live, and. when we lived in, you know, in. Paleolithic times, we didn't have spare. resources for having fun, but we adorned ourselves, we danced, we. told stories, we made, you know, cave. art. So, I think that just really. reminds us that those things that are.

often seen as luxuries or frivolous, they're not at all, they're. fundamentally important. Believing in in. these things itself is good for us. Is. that what you believe? You believe that. believing in something transcendent, whether it's spiritual or religious, is. actually just good for us. So, that's. reason enough to believe it. It's reason. enough to believe it, but I think it. will naturally change what you do once. you believe it. You're not going to live. in the same way if you if you you know, believe some fundamentally different. things. >> And the ways in which it changes what.

you believe are beneficial to you. So, are you saying that that is reason. enough to believe it? Like to want to. believe it? I think it's reason enough. to try it. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it causes. people through human history to do awful. things, right? To kill themselves, to. to strap bombs to themselves and do. horrific things because they believe in. something transcendent. It it can also lead to like. destructive behavior. I mean, I don't.

think there's any evidence from. near-death experiences that that's the. case. I think. I know what that what you're referring. to is something that's, you know, more. fundamentally like religious and. Cuz I was watching that I've been. watching Jack told me to watch this uh. capture bin Laden documentary, so I was. watching it last night and. these people flew themselves into. buildings. because they believe in. you know, they were obviously. radicalized in various ways, but they. they believed in going to a.

afterlife that would be better than this. one. And they were sacrificing. themselves. for the greater good. So, it's just it's. I guess it's a side point that just but. the belief in transcendence itself in. some regard isn't necessarily always. going to guarantee our behaviors on on. this planet are productive. Yeah, and I. was going to say like perhaps it's. something more dogmatic, but I think. you're absolutely right to raise that. point. And I'm not trying to sit here. and say. I found like the perfect solution and. everyone should do this and it's all. good. Like that's just I know that's not.

true. I'm not trying to say that at all. I think we should absolutely be. questioning everything that that I'm. saying and I will keep questioning the. way that I'm living my life and keep. trying to learn and grow. I guess the. point is just the belief in something. transcendent. Does that make our lives. necessarily better? I guess the answer. is I can't it can. Yeah. I'm really obsessed at the moment. actually with this idea of purpose and. meaning because obviously we're living. in a society that's more and more. individualistic and. >> Yeah. independence is kind of vogue and. um because of a variety of things that.

have happened over the last 50 60 70. years, we have more independence. Women. in particular have a lot more. independence which I think everyone is. very most people are very um supportive. of. >> Mhm. We have more choice than ever before and. with choice comes independence. So I can. choose now when I have a family and. maybe I couldn't choose before. Mhm. Um. and with choice and with freedom. I think some of our. more short-term hedonistic desires and. temptations take hold and we end up. sacrificing the tribe and shared.

responsibility and dependence and a lot. of our meaning came from like those. things. Mhm. So I I feel to some degree. that when we think about how we ladder. up from like me to like my family to my. city to my nation and then maybe to my. God Mhm. those layers have fallen away. now for many of us it's just me. >> Mhm. and that's causing a crisis of meaning. and purpose in in life because we're. kind of unanchored. Yeah. What's your perspective on this and um.

do you think it's true that we're like. when more unanchored than we've ever. been and how do you think we get back to. that if we can relate to feeling a. little bit lost and unanchored and. the sort of prevalence in my view of. people having more and more midlife. crises and turning to religion or. spirituality or something? >> Yeah, well I I actually called this in. March 2020 and it's on record cuz I was. on a podcast and I I said I. foresee a huge mental health crisis but. we could choose for it to be a spiritual. revolution.

And so then obviously the you know, the. rest of the pandemic happened and then. there was sort of a return to society. which I think people found really hard. mentally as well. And at the same time there was the cost. of living crisis, the wealth gap, a new. war, the crime rates, you know, certainly in London like just for my. life experience they had you know, significantly grown. Um. for reasons that we're all contributors. to but you know, it changes how safe you. feel in society.

And. I'm a big fan of technology obviously. I'm a scientist but. it is ironic that we seem to be more. disconnected than ever when. in in one way we're we're more connected. than we've ever been before. Mhm. And. I you know, I I've said this before but. I'll say it again. I think. the way out of that is is a return to. ancient wisdom to true connection which. I believe can coexist with. being technologically connected and. advanced. Um.

but yeah, I just I just think we've lost. what it means to be human which means. you know, really being in touch with. yourself and being part of a community. and and caring about. something more than just your own life. and and your immediate you know, inner. circle. And what is true connection in your. definition of the word? Cuz I guess there's false connection if. there's true connection. Mhm. So what's. true connection? Um And what is false. connection? Well, I'll just go over you. know, what I've said before cuz it's. about connection to yourself, to others.

and you know, sort of the world or. something greater. And I think you know, it's about something that's. that's deep and not transactional. It's. about something that's meaningful. It's. about something that's altruistic. I I think it's about contributing. That day when you walked past the. hospital, what did you experience? Um it triggers me seeing that building. And I just. I you know, I had obviously looked on.

Google Maps, but not really realized I. would walk past it. And if I had. realized, I would have walked a. different way. And I remember just. thinking. it's unfair that I had to see this. building. It was unnecessary. unnecessarily a trigger for me. And. and obviously obviously saying to Robin, you need to send me a sign. But there's. a reason for that, which is you know, I. mean I went to that hospital every day. for. a month for his first day and I think. about 3 weeks for the second one. Um. but.

he had two admissions to ICU. And. one of them I'd been, you know, to visit. him for the day. He'd been bedridden for quite a few. weeks by then. And I came home. I was just sort of de-escalating and you. know, sitting on the sofa and getting. ready for the evening. And then suddenly. I saw the emergency line was calling. And. I could hear them saying. his heart rate went up to 200. Like. ICU are here now. You know, we did a.

crash call. And they're just like. talking talking talking. And I suddenly. just said. should I come back to the hospital? And she said yes. In a tone of voice. that was like. you need to get here as quickly as. possible. Got in the Uber. It's a. 30-minute Uber ride from my house. And. messaged my best friend and said that. I've got to rush back to the hospital. He was on the 15th floor. So, I was like. waiting for the lift. Got up there.

Saw the matron coming to unlock the. door. And I just said, "Is he in his. room?" And she said, "Yes, he's in his. room." But she her face looked like. not good. Ran round and saw all the machinery from. ICU in the corridor with like 100 wires. coming out of the room. Ran into the room and just saw Robin sat. up in bed. Huge smile when he saw me. And he just said to me, "When I thought this was the end, I just. kept thinking, please let me see her.

face one more time.". And. you know, after that he did get a bit. better, but then. um. Well, in that first admission eventually. I said to him, you know, you've got to. start sitting up. The doctor said you've. got to sit out of bed. And. the therapist had come round. He said, "I don't want therapy. I've got you.". So, like I took the therapy. The reflexology lady came round. He. pretended he was asleep. And eventually. I said, "Darling, you've got to play the.

game. I cannot do this by myself. And you And you can't just keep lying in. bed. You've got to sit up.". So, he got helped into the chair. And that day when I went to say goodbye. to him. I hugged him like face-to-face. And I. had didn't quite realize that the whole. time I'd been kissing him from the side. of the bed cuz he'd been in bed. And when we hugged face-to-face, I just. burst into tears. And I had never shown. him anything but a smiling face the. whole time. And I left. And I just got this barrage. of text messages saying, "I'm not.

spending one more night away from you. I'm wasting away in this hospital when I. could be with you. When you come in. tomorrow, we're going to tell the. doctors that I'm leaving.". So, I thought, okay. Came in the next day. It's ward round. And I was pretty much like part of the. ward round. Like the consultant would. say everything and then say, "Is that. okay, Tara?" kind of thing. And he said, "I want to leave I'm. leaving today. I want to be at home with. my wife tonight.". And she was very clever. She looked at. me and said, "What do you think, Tara?".

cuz she knew I'd never put him in. danger. But also, I'm standing in front of the. man. that I love. And I'm either going to tell him that I. don't trust him, I don't trust his. decision-making. The person who always always had my. back, or I'm going to have to show him. that I have his back just like he always. had mine. And I said to her, "I understand why. you wouldn't be in favor of this, but I. think I can manage it.".

And within 2 days he was discharged from. hospital. Um. yeah, off IVs. Um but still on oxygen. We still had to go in to have like the. bone marrow tests and get blood. transfusions and platelets and things. But he slowly started to recover. He It. was a slow recovery. So, normally within a week you would get. the second round of treatment. He wasn't. strong enough for that, but. um we got to the point where she.

actually said that we could go to. Hampshire, and then he stopped using the. walking stick, he stopped using the. oxygen. We came back to London for the second. round of treatment. She said, "I I could. not have imagined you would bring him. back in as good a state as he's in.". But the second round of treatment was. totally brutal, and it didn't work. Um so, he was in hospital again. for a few weeks, and then like I said, on October 4th, I took him home. Even then,

the female consultant said to me, "The last time you took him to. Hampshire, he got so much better. If. anything changes, bring him back to. London." And. the male consultant. gave me two syringes of bone marrow. stimulating um drugs and said, "You. cannot use this without our permission, but if anything changes, inject him with. this and bring him back to London." So, I still had like a glimmer of hope, which I shouldn't really have had. Um. and like I said, he he lived for 3 and.

1/2 weeks instead of two. Um. yeah, and like right towards the end cuz. he was in a hospital bed on an air. mattress. He said like maybe you could like come. and lie on the bed with me. And when you. couldn't move, he couldn't raise a glass. of water to his lips or anything. He somehow like moved his arms cuz I. always used to sleep like on his chest. Um. and then after a few seconds he said I'm. just really claustrophobic and you know,

I'd like had to put the rails up to stay. in the bed cuz it was so small I was. going to fall out and I said it's okay, darling. And I think that I think that. was his way of saying goodbye to me cuz. he died 2 days after that. What's on your mind? Um. just like very sad. Um.

I don't want him to get forgotten. I've dedicated like my book to him. But I I also know because. we've had this conversation that. there's something. there's something there's there's still. like. something that I have to do in this life. which was the reason that I had to stay.

So. yeah, I I think. there's a like a purpose to fulfill that. that Robin wants me to so that that's. what I'm going to do. How do you think about falling in love. again? Cuz I. played out the horrific thought myself. in my own life of losing my partner and. and how difficult it would it appears to. be from this vantage point to. fall in love again and meet people and. to to think about those things again.

Like how would. How do you think about that? Um. So, I. actually. experienced unconditional love, which I. didn't believe in. So, the first time. Robin said to me, "I love you. unconditionally.". Because I had some baggage from previous. relationship, I said, "Don't say that because I don't think. that exists.". And he never said it again. But every day for the rest of his life,

he showed me that it was true. So, at. some point, I just knew it was true. I would say, you know, obviously people. say things like he would want you to be. happy. And. you know, I was still wearing my wedding. rings for over 2 years. And you know, even some of his friends said, "You. don't need to wear them anymore." But I. said, "I want to." And I wore them for. as you know, as long as I still needed. to. I. I'm open to receiving love, but I'm not. going to go and look for it. Let's put.

it that way. Why? Um. I don't know. I mean, it's not really my. style anyway. But. I think I've been so lucky with what. I've had that I don't. I don't. I'd be okay if I didn't like have. something like that again. Obviously, I'm too young to like not want to have.

that again. But I'm I also feel quite. vulnerable. So, I'll just like see how things go. I've watched so many entrepreneurs treat. sales like a performance problem, when. it's often down to visibility. Because. when you can't see what's happening in. your pipeline, what stage each. conversation is at, what's stalled, what's moving, you can't improve. anything. And you can't close the deal. Our sponsor Pipedrive is the number one. CRM tool for small to medium businesses.

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to usecadence.com. And to get you. started, don't tell anybody this, but. I'll give you a code, which is code. diary, which will give you 15% off and. an extra 15% off on subscriptions. And if I told you I'd been through what. you've been through, and I asked you the question, should I go and look for love again? What advice would you give to me? If I'd lost my partner and. I was what, 4 years now? Mhm. Away from. that me. >> Really? Yeah. What What advice would you.

give me about love? I think it's very personal. I think, you. know, if you. want to be in a relationship, that's. absolutely fine. Um. if you're not sure, that's fine, too. I. think there's different levels of how. long it would take people. I do know that when. you know, the majority of voices were. around around me were sort of saying. like, it's okay for you to do that. again, but one of my friends who's. engaged to someone who was a widower, he said to me at the time, I'm telling.

you right now, 2 years is not It's not. long enough. And that felt like a. relief. Um. so obviously it's almost another 2 years. now. I, you know, I think I believe that. if love is meant for you meant for me, then it will come to me. So, I'm not I'm. not. I'm I'm just calm about it. How are you. different? Like, what are the very material or like. very obvious ways that you're a. different person on the other side of. this? Um. What would your friends say if I said,

how is Tara different? Well, I think they would say that I'm a. lot more like fragile and vulnerable. Cuz that Cuz they're like very, very. protective of me, still. Um. I know they would I know what they would. say cuz some of them have said it and I. didn't really like to hear this at. first, but they said you're going to be. able to help so many people. You know, the first time someone said. that, I was like, I've been a doctor, I've been a coach, I, you know, my whole. like personality is about helping.

people. I didn't need my husband to. suffer horrifically and die so that I. can help people. But now, I do actually feel that I can and I want. to. And what do you want to help them. with? And who do you want to help? People that are grieving? Not just people that are grieving. I. think. you know, people that are. struggling and suffering in different. ways and people really, really want to. feel seen and I think that's like an. important. place where I would love to. do something. I think I've got more and.

more curious about. the idea that I might be wrong about. subjective reality and how I see things. And so I wondered if if there's a. clearer definition of the subjective. reality that you see. Like do you do you. think we are the spirits that inhabit. our body and then like why? Is there is. there reason why. I've come into this body? Is there some bigger karmic purpose as. to why I've I I live? This ultimate question of like what is. the meaning of life? In the world view.

that you have, like what is the point? What is the point? Why did I need to. live? I don't know if I can answer that. I'm. going to I'm just going to say like. what's coming to my mind. >> Okay. Which is. So. like you and I. might never have met in our lives, right? >> Mhm. And for some reason we did. And. we had never met before I did the. podcast with you last time.

But people cannot stop talking about. like the level of chemistry as if we'd. known each other our whole lives and. I've always said I felt like I was. talking to my little brother. And then that episode goes on to have. like the number of views that it does. Mhm. I don't believe that that's random. or a coincidence. I think. and there's a reason for that and for me. in a way you were the worst person for. me to come and do and tell this story to. you for the first time because you were. the most skeptical person of all the. podcast hosts that I can think of that.

I'm going to go on. Mhm. So. there's obviously some importance to. that. I can't explain it. I'm I'm not I. didn't come here with all the answers. I'm just. lucky enough to be someone credible. qualifications that's had a. you know, an experience that most people. don't talk about that. I can open up for people. That that's I. would say like. all that it is. But I want to add. something else that I'm feeling is. relevant as well, which is. because of my friendship group.

and the kind of conversations that we. have I wasn't allowed by my publisher to. include personal stories from my. friends. I had to source stories from. people I had either never met or only. met once or were friends of friends. So every personal story that you read in. The Signs, which has the person's real. name. and it is written by them and gifted to. me for this book. are people that I don't know. And. they're all saying the same thing.

They see, you know, light disturbances. when they think of their lost loved one. or they get unmistakable signs or robins. visit them. Um. Yeah, I haven't made that stuff up. Like. there's something to it. I I don't know. exactly what it is. I I hope I find out. before I die, but maybe I'll only find. out after I die. I don't know. And is there any meaning to. all this stuff? It's kind of going back. to the question I asked earlier because. you said you think we met for a reason. Mhm. And one could hazard a number of.

reasons as to why that was. Maybe it was. because you're going to go on to help so. many people and reach so many people. with an important message, whatever. But. I don't know, this is my curiosity. trying to reach a conclusion, which is. for what for why? Like why are humans here? Why why. doesn't my dog Pablo have or does he. have the same capabilities of seeing. signs and communicating with. >> Oh, he's got more capabilities than you. in many respects. He I mean. >> about that in the book, right? You talk. about pets and animals. Okay, let me talk about that a little.

bit. So. dogs and cats can smell certain diseases. and um they can smell imminent death. So, there's something called hyperosmia, which is um, in humans, it's the ability. to smell more than the normal range. So, there's a very famous nurse called Joy, I think it's Milner, who smelt her. husband's Parkinson's disease years. before he was diagnosed. And her ability. to smell that disease has caused a new. swab test to be created that takes.

chemicals from the skin of people to. predict if they're going to get. Parkinson's disease. So, there are some outliers in humans. that have, you know, they're called. super smellers, for example. Like, we're. not all capable of that, but some people. are. Blind people. rewire the visual cortex of the brain in. the occipital lobes here for. echolocation. Humans aren't built for echolocation, bats and dolphins are. But, people who are blind can use up the. unused visual cortex.

to um, learn how to recognize. how close objects are to them by how. long it takes sound to bounce back from. surfaces. So, basically, animals have senses that. we don't have. Some very rare people can have some of. those senses that animals have that most. humans don't. We're also capable of. rewiring some of our. um, neurons for senses that replace ones. that we don't have. And I'm just going to bring us full.

circle, you know, kind of where we. started with. can you suspend your disbelief by. understanding that there are lots of. things that we can't prove at the. moment, but, you know, we sort of. science is science is. to on the quest to push boundaries, which is that Russell Foster. suggested that not that the only cells. on our retinas are not just rods and. cones, which are for vision, but there. was a different type of cell that senses. the passing of time through the.

light-dark cycle, and, you know, that's. how we create our circadian rhythms. He. was ridiculed by scientists who said. we've been studying the eye for 150. years and you think there's a new type. of cell that we've missed out in all. that time and you found it. And sure enough, now there are. identified cells called melanopsin cells. which blind um rodents. can still keep to the circadian rhythm. because they can sense the the changing. light and dark cycle, but if you put.

opaque contact lenses on them, they. drift off the circadian rhythm. So, I I'm not going to be able to give you. an answer at the end of this podcast, but. maybe that's the beauty of everything. that we're not at the end of knowing. everything that we need to know, but. there's a lot of really interesting big. question marks. Do you think we'll ever. figure out these answers? Do you think. science will ever get there? Do you. think they'll come a day when we make.

discoveries that prove. that many of the things you that you. write about in the signs are in fact. true? Like scientifically justifiable, repeatable. Yeah, I think so, but I don't think. we'll be here at that point. I'm always. just fascinated because you know so much. about neuroscience and the connection of. not just neuroscience, but spirituality. and um. and then also human psychology in. general. The thing I'm always so.

fascinated about with you is that you're. able to tell me things that I didn't. know. Like you said to me last time. about looking into someone's left eye. and the fact that sweat leaks through. the skin and that menstrual cycle sync. up. And these are all things that are. like really actionable that have helped. me to look at life differently, but also. now I don't think I've looked in. someone's right eye in the last 2 years. Especially when they're like annoyed or. something, so. Is there anything else like that that. you've become curious about or. discovered. or talked about since we last saw each. other. that might be pertinent to you now.

>> Um I think we've discussed it which is. like noticing beauty. That's been a real. game changer for me. That's like. gratitude to the next level. And that's an active practice of going. through life looking for something. beautiful. Well, it was but then it. becomes a habit. Yeah, okay. Um and it's. producing oxytocin just like gratitude. practice does. So obviously it's kind of. self-rewarding. Mhm. So then you. naturally want to do it more and more. But I notice I point it out to people. more as well now which is that I'm. obviously trying to like. create a bit of a like crowd effect. Um. not consciously but I just can't help.

myself. Like if I see something really. pretty then. I'll say, "Oh, like you know, did you. see that?" Um Certain people do that. often and they do seem to be the. happiest people. My girlfriend does that. all the time. She she'll like like stop. the car because there's a flower that we. need to go spend 45 seconds looking at. across the other side of the road. >> And to a lot of people it's just a. flower and we've kind of almost become. used to seeing flowers. >> habituation. Yeah. So even if you walk. past like an amazing tree or an amazing. building every day, eventually you'll.

you'll just not notice it cuz you're. habituated to it. So saliency is. you know, keeping yourself primed like. what I call the art of noticing. Mhm. And where are you right now in terms of. your journey of grief? I mean, much better is the first thing I. need to say cuz obviously it's been a. long and dark time. Um. I know that I know. I'm not there yet because there is a. part of me that is.

like afraid to let my light really. shine. Explain that. I think I sort of touched on it before. that if I I feel like if I. you know, if I like throw myself back. into my career now cuz I've had quite a. few years out. and it becomes really successful that. there's a level of guilt associated with. that but. you know, at least I'm aware of that. Um. I've had a few conversations with close. friends about it. I. have quite a timeline ahead of me.

because of book publication and book. promo. And then like, you know, next things. that we might do. Um. So, I think I just need to like keep. working on that as things unfold. Um. I know it's wrong, but it's how I feel. at the moment. We meet up again in 10 years' time. Obviously, we're going to see each other. before then, but say we we get together. in 10 years' time, and this next season. of your life has been a great success. Well, what happened? Wow. Um.

I got over myself and like put myself. out there and like really shone, and it. actually did really help loads of. people. Um Look at the smile on your. face as you say that. Yeah. I really want to say thank you to you as. well for everything. The feeling is mutual. You know, it really is. You you were. transformative for for this show, and um.

everywhere I go still today people come. up to me and tell me about how that. conversation helped them, it inspired. them in some way, but also helped them. understand, as you said earlier in this. conversation, that all that we know. isn't all that there is to know. >> Yeah. And just that, you know, I've. tried to play a bit of a skeptic. throughout this conversation. I am. naturally skeptical, but the other thing. that's that the from being a podcast to. the other thing that happens to you is. you become more open-minded. It's it's. almost this paradox. You think you're. going to learn more, but actually. through the through the conversations. I've had, I've realized that there's so.

much that I don't know. And actually, that's forced me more into. an agnostic position than I was before. And what I mean by that is it's forced. me into a state where I can't fall into. the trap of thinking I know things. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, this is also why I I I I. find it hard to commit to any belief, like a religious belief or atheism, because there's I continually see it. over and over again, and someone will. say something to me, and I'll be skeptical, and then I'll. reflect, and then I'll look at the. research or the science or whatever, and. I'll change my mind. And if you change. your mind that many times, you realize. that.

um your mind should probably not. be fixed to any position. I love that. I'm so glad of you for hearing that. That's like an incredible thing for. people to hear. But it's true, and I hope that of my. audience. You know, I was sat with my. team a while ago, and I was saying, "Do. you know what DOAC stands for?" It. stands for Davids here, I get it. But it. also stands for people that have that. are dreamers, that are open-minded, which is the O, that are in search of increasing their. awareness, and that could be in. any. definition that you want to describe it,

whether it's awareness of health, psychology, who they are, and the C is about. connection. So, that's really like. hearing your stories makes me feel like. me, too. Mhm. I feel that, too. I'm struggling in. that way, too. So, that's the framework. that I think about the show, and that's. the also why. I try and remain open-minded to all. things that I hear, um. and let people speak. I've never. actually said that before, but there it. is, guys. Um. and I And that's why I'm I'm so. compelled by this conversation today. Of. course, like I'm skeptical. Like I think. skepticism is healthy. Yeah. Um but I'm.

also open-minded, and that means that. I'm willing to take what you've said to. me today. and to investigate it and run the. experiments in my own life. And if I am open-minded, maybe I'll. receive some evidence for myself. >> Yeah. So, thank you. Thank you for doing what. you're doing. And also, you know, as you said earlier, it's much. easier and safer in life just to sit in. a box of the known. Like, you're not. going to get any arrows. Yeah. But it's. when people through history have dared. to say that maybe. the earth revolves around the sun, or.

that maybe the earth isn't flat, they've. taken the arrows, but that's pushed us. forward as a society into a better way. of being. So, I always applaud the. the the those that have the guts to ask. questions. You know? So, I hope that's the audience that I've. cultivated. I hope they're not too. narrow-minded. or too fixed. But, I'm sure they will. debate and share their anecdotes in the. comment section. I'm actually really. looking to to I'm really looking forward.

to reading the comment section. >> I know. On this particular conversation, cuz I know what it's it's going to be. full of stories and anecdotes and. experiences, which I think it's going to. be really enriching. But, I do ask. everybody in the comment section to be. um. open-minded and empathetic and kind. Um. actively. Which means replying to people and being. kind, because, you know, grief, no matter what your opinion is on. it, is um. is a very delicate thing. And uh. we're all trying to find ways to be.

more happier and more connected and uh. to deal with the reality of of our. experience. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast. The last guest leaves a. question for the next guest, not knowing. who they're leaving it for. Okay. And the question left for you. is. what is the best thing. that someone has done for you? Oh, God. You sure you don't make these. things up? >> what it says here. If anyone wants to. read it, it's what it says in the book.

It It's got to be. Robin showing me that unconditional love. really does exist. Tara, thank you. Your new book, The Signs, beautiful book, by the way. Thank you. Beautiful book. The new science of how. to trust your instincts. will be out in September. So, if you're. listening to this in September, then. it's out. And I'll link it below for. anyone that wants to have a read of this. book. Um.

the really truly unique thing about you. is that you blend all of these different. perspectives into your. your own perspective and your own. writing and your own research. And so, in reading this book, it pulls everybody. in. It pulls in, I think, the skeptics. It. pulls in the believers. And it pulls. them all into the same room to confront. a new possible answer to the nature of. reality. that might just serve to help so many of. us. So, I highly recommend everybody. gives it a read because. if you're someone that likes to expand. your mind and think beyond the known,

then this is this is the book and this. is the moment in time because of all the. reasons you said about loneliness and. individualism and all these things that. people need to read books like this. So, I highly I'm so excited for it to be in. the world and I'm so excited to hear. what everybody um everybody thinks and. how they receive it. So, thank you for. writing such a wonderful book. And thank. you for coming back. And. thank you again for many years ago now. blessing our show in a profound way that. pulled in a huge new audience, which has. set us on a. on a an incredible journey. So, yeah. Thank you, Tara. >> you.

This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to this show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to this. show. So, could I ask you for a favor? If you like this show and you like what. we do here and you want to support us, the free, simple way that you can do. just that is by hitting the subscribe. button. And my commitment to you is if. you do that, then I'll do everything in. my power, me and my team, to make sure. that this show is better for you every. single week. We'll listen to your. feedback. We'll find the guests that you. want me to speak to. And we'll continue. to do what we do. Thank you so much. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say. to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you.

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