Mary Portas: How To Stop Living A Life That Isn't True To You | E85

i like a really good life and i have a. very good life. i knew i was a bit different as well. though you know you felt different i did. feel different i was doing. tv shows radio shows i had my own. collection. i had the business oh god how [ __ ] is. that life. and i lost me in that there wasn't times. where it wasn't. fantastic there was but where was i i. didn't stop. to breathe we've really [ __ ] this.

planet for you guys. we were blind we're blind consumers. living in life while we. slowly killed the planet and our. well-being so it has to be you guys that. don't know. my mother died when i was very suddenly. of um encephalitis when i was 16. and she was the center of you know the. world and. i had to grow up very quickly and all. that misbehavior. went into sort of responsibility this is. this is. really painful yet somehow i i wasn't. able to express it.

[Music]. mary portis you may know her from the. high street you may know her from. business or you may know her from her. books. but the experience i had with her today. is honestly incredible she is hilarious. she is smart she's witty and she is. willing. to be honest at all costs and that. really speaks to one of the central. principles she'll talk about today.

which is this idea of the importance of. being true to yourself she's made the. mistake that 99. of people that are listening to this are. going to make are currently making. or are in the process of overcoming. which is living a life that isn't true. to who you actually are. and today she's also going to tell you. about an idea that will be fairly. radical to some people. especially people who are building and. have built big businesses. which is based on her new book rebuild. how to thrive. in the new kindness economy.

she has achieved things that most people. in business would never. even dream of she's been a media star. she's been a political figure at times. and through it all through the hardest. of times through grief. through trauma through broken marriages. through public scrutiny in the press. she has emerged as an incredibly. outspoken. honest humble intellectually challenging. and stimulating. humorous inspiration leader entrepreneur.

and public figure i laughed i realized. and i was deeply. inspired and you will be too so without. further ado. i'm stephen bartlett and this is the. diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening. but if you are then please keep this to. yourself. mary um you're a very stand-out person. with a very stand-up personality. and you've managed to achieve some. pretty remarkable things in your life.

and. from a place of curiosity that always. makes me wonder what it is that made you. different and. i like to always start with people's. childhoods and their upbringings because. i tend to believe that that's the most. influential part of their life typically. so. is there anything from your um younger. years that you think has been defining. in the person you went on to become. um i well of course i think that that. probably is the case. um i was one of five kids but i was the.

fourth out of five. um and uh we were my parents were. irish had come over in their late 50s. from ireland my father was a protestant. my mother was a catholic so you know. from belfast from the north of it um of. ireland so this wasn't. you know they they uh this was the time. when that wasn't looked on too. happily so they came over and chose. watford to live in. [Music]. it could have been dagenham but they. chose watford those were the two options.

and. um i'm kind of proud george michael. elton john so we're we're kind of and a. good football team. but i think um i think looking back on. my childhood my my older siblings we. often talk about this we're very very. close it's sort of a two-year one-year. gap between us all. and i was the fourth and i remember. vividly. thinking i'm not the eldest i'm not the. youngest i'm not the first girl and i. didn't feel particularly special. but so i was very um. naughty as a child you know just spent a. lot of time.

up to pranks and trying to find my voice. i think really. very loving household um my father was. very. high highly strong hard-working. and my mother was a poetical musical. and was pushed us academically put us. all through the grammar school system. i remember my sister coming home from. school and saying i'm number two. in the class i looked at the register. and my mother said and who was number. one.

so i think that gives you a sort of uh. taste of what what life is like but um. we're very close and um but my mother. died when i was very suddenly. of um encephalitis when i was 16. and she was the center of you know the. world and um. just by the the place where i was in the. family my eldest siblings my elder. brother michael was at university and my. sister was just about to go. and work um go training at uch.

and my other brother was hairdressing. and so i ended up looking after being. the one at home. and looking after my younger brother. and i had to grow up very quickly and. all that. misbehavior went into sort of. responsibility. that's what i think happened anyway i. mean you know and i i just took on the. role of the. the i wouldn't say parent because i was. not very good at that at all.

but the one who managed stuff at home. and even when my elder siblings then. came back. and to this day you know it's mary's. house that we meet at or. really yeah it's really interesting. because i'm i'm the youngest of four. and i feel like i took on that role. where i feel like i had. because my parents were absent by the. time i was 10. why were they absent. my mom just decided that i think she. decided that she'd raised all of the. kids already you know like yeah it's. almost like they've i've done my. my work as a parent all my brothers and. sisters were older than me.

so she would then just sleep at her shop. because she was getting burgled a lot at. her shop. getting lots of like racial attacks on. her shop so she would literally go and. sleep in the back room after after work. wake up work go sleep in the back room. but she had a 10 year old at home. yeah and so i just learned this huge i. had this huge void of independence i. became super naughty. breaking into my school yeah all sorts. of stuff i set far to mine. that was by accident i thought i could. do a little bonfire on. the wooden steps but yeah oh my god the. nuns i was.

looked. the passing of your parents. [Music]. at a young age how does that impact you. well mine sort of went from from uh you. know this. terrible traumatic my mother was the. central figure um this sort of fiery. redhead who. just was the backbone and i don't look. back in hindsight i go oh amazing but. she was. i was just about baked just about baked. you know she'd i'd had enough.

of love and time from her at 16 i think. my younger brother laurence at 14 that. was terribly difficult so you at 10 i'm. with you i can feel that that that's. that's that's a very lonely place for a. young boy. um but my father remarried. within a year i used to come home from. school and he'd be crying you know and. uh and i was actually then finding. lawrence and i were managing his grief. with these young kids really you know.

and he remarried very quickly and um and. then he died. of a heart attack nine months after. getting married. but in doing so left the family home. to the new wife of nine months so we. were all. out on our own really after that and. that i think i look back now. i look back now and i didn't look back. for a long while didn't look back. at all but i look back now and i see. that i was in grief for about four years. i mean i used to walk to school crying.

and then just get on the bus and smile. it's grief but i don't you know. somehow i suppressed that and um put it. into. a life that i never dreamt i'd have. that's for sure from that. did you ever get help with that grief. never i remember the headmistress. saying you know if you ever want to come. and talk and the headmistress was a nun. called sister saint james who was you. know this wonderful. actually i really really liked her she.

was pretty scared by most standards but. i really liked her. um but that was it i wasn't good against. hitting the headmistresses office and. have a sob. especially with a nun and have to beat. my chest and say about 10 hail marys. so i didn't know i don't think any of us. did this was the. late 70s i didn't remember it's funny. like last night i um i got a little. eight-year-old and he's. into elvis presley for whatever and i. put on some youtube and we were. dancing to elvis presley he was trying. to do the little movements and i said.

he said elvis died didn't he mummy in. 1977. yes the year my mum died so my mum died. in the july and elvis in the orgs and i. remember everybody grieving elvis. and i was going no and i couldn't get on. this i was like what. and everyone's like elvis has died the. headline so i'm just thinking no my. mom's died. this is this is really painful yet. somehow i. i wasn't able to express her. the grief for those four years how did. how did that impact you.

um thereafter and also not processing. that grief. well i think i had a lot of anger yeah i. mean my temper was very quick. i don't have that now i've done a lot of. work on it it's called meditation really. yeah and also being able to come to a. place of acceptance. and and having techniques on but i think. i had a lot of. anger i mean my father would you know.

was very quick tempered um but then with. five kids running around screaming the. house i think i would have been. so i think that was there um. and i i don't know i just i think what i. did was i just kept going. blindly i mean i didn't have any any. goal or any vision it wasn't like oh i'm. going to show them. i just kept going and i think what i did. was. ignored the deep sensitivity the deep. me i think i ignored that so i believed.

i was this. naughty going fast quick-tempered. individual actually i'm not i'm really. soft. i wasn't that but i didn't know that for. a long long time. was that a was that sort of exterior the. slightly tougher exterior. some form of emotional reaction or. defense from something do you think. because. if that wasn't who you were wondering. where that must have came from. well i think it was a part of my. personality my behavior but i think.

i i believe that that was me. and i believed that that was going to be. part of my success you know being. quick-witted. i mean fiery doing things fast. which is you know being a part of my. work but i think i didn't ever discover. the deeper sensitivities and there were. times when i felt vulnerable and there's. times i felt lost and i wanted to be. understood and it was like oh it's mary. and you'd go well no because everybody. judged you on that. it went weirdly even i think the persona.

that i had on tv. with the orange bob was that and people. would edit me. to that and i would often think but i. spent so much time behind the scenes. sitting with those. shopkeepers holding their hands or. talking to them but. nobody wants nobody wanted to see that. they wanted to go. and actually yeah it deeply there was. another part of me that wasn't expressed. you talk about this um step mother. i wouldn't even call her that really. what would you call her the woman my.

father married i mean i i i. again i i think about that and i'm i'm. talking. with my children on this and um. and when i had to write my memoir you. had to go back on this and and. i just cannot understand anybody. not looking after children who are. grieving for their parents i can't. imagine. you know being with anybody or me. marrying anybody i mean i was married a. second time to a woman. and she took on my children i can't.

imagine anybody doing what she did. i just it doesn't fathom in my head. here's a woman. who had a child the same age as my. younger brother who left us. homeless left you homeless well my. father left her. our family home we were 19 and 16. we had no home we had nowhere to live. and she didn't let you live there oh she. sold it she took it. nine months of being married to my. father after 25 years of marriage in a. family home that he built.

are you still resentful about that yeah. no were you at the time. no that's another thing i don't feel. resent. i don't know all we wanted. was for dad to be buried with mum. because you know we were brought up. catholics and. when mum died and she was a deep. catholic. um they we booked the plot so that dad. they have the plot so he can be buried. on the same. ground and she didn't want that so we. had to bring the family priest and go.

and see her. and we got that in the end and i no i. didn't ever. ever feel a dot of resentment. do you carry those feelings resentment. regret. yeah bridges i just genuinely don't. regret a thing. my life's been extraordinary i had. extraordinary amounts of pain. extraordinary heights. and it's been colorful and one that i. would never have predicted. when you think about the pain think of. the moments of the greatest pain in your.

life what are those moments. um undoubtedly my mother dying that. that um where you wake up and it's. it's like something's on your chest. that was and i remember it was sunny. sunny hot i i didn't like the summer for. years it was july hot. july the late 70s that summer when it. was boiling hot. and i just associated that and i used to. love when it became. automotive cold you could go indoors and. hide it felt like a security.

to me and everybody was out playing. tennis and walking and happy. and somewhere and you just this heavy. black. pain deep inside you. um and both separations i've been. you know uh in two big relationships. where i've been married and that. that when you split up a family and i'm. a family person when you have to sit and. go okay how do i do this. how do i do this how do i sit with you.

my children and say you know this little. life you've got. this is moving on that was those i. actually remember. you know lying awake three nights on the. road not sleeping. a dot and getting up there must be so. much adrenaline in my body i mean i. don't know. i lost about a stone in weight and i'm. pretty slim i remember putting on my. trousers. dropped below my hips oh my god. that sort of stress and pain but you. have to keep going because you are. responsible. for these children that's what i wanted.

to ask you about is having been through. so much. stress and pain which is just this. unavoidable part of the human experience. you can't avoid it right yeah if you try. and avoid it you probably end up with. more. um rumi talks about the bruises the poet. sufi perk roaming the bruises and how we. learn from those bruises. tell me about that well he's just one of. my great. i've discovered him um a 13th century. sufi mystic. and he talks about the bruises that we.

hit. and how they repair but that's how we. grow. what have you what have you learned. about how to cope with. unexpected [ __ ] and pain that life. throws at you because you know. you never see it coming i mean a lot of. people have had it over the last 12. months right. last 18 months with the pandemic. couldn't have seen that coming. lots of people's businesses just smashed. to pieces they've lost loved ones. how does one cope with. that kind of like grief whether it's a. professional grief or a.

you know um the grief of a lost loved. one or the grief of a lost relationship. is there anything you've learned over. the course of your life where you think. that's probably. the best or only approach well there is. the wonderful line of this too shall. pass and it does. [Music]. for me i have found great. great resolve from some of the great. teachings. and the philosophers who i have read.

for a long time now probably about 15 20. years. and and even if we look at the basis of. most religion which is a patriarchy and. has been completely screwed and. bastardised by most men. but actually if you look at the truth at. the heart of it it's much the same thing. that we all have to follow and you have. to just connect. deeply with your inner whatever you call. it whether it's your spirit whether it's. your soul whether it's your. as oprah says my inner frequency you.

know when that. gets shelved or you're not aligned. that's when you start to behave. and you follow whatever's happening to. you rather than actually connecting. truly back with your strength your. resource. and so that for me has been and i've. tried to guide my children on that and. actually. found that that has been i wish someone. had done that a little bit more it was. it was shrouded in religion when i was a. kid in the catholic faith which i just. could not connect with at all you know. my mother literally you know going to. confession you used to go into the.

church and see these eight-year-old. women beating their chest and saying. dear god you know i've seen anything. what's she done you know this is crazy. this isn't this isn't life what the some. poor old but i'm kneeling down beating. her chest. that's not what the world's about you. know that that's what i've discovered is. if you try and get back to your essence. and. know and try and align and connect with. some deeper strength whether it's. through meditation or whether it's just. pause. and breathe it will come through and it.

does. i mean that's not to say we should we. have to go through grief. we have to go through mourning we have. to let that go through our bodies. leaving it in your bodies is the worst. thing you can possibly do and i've done. that over the years and i've. had my back put out i've been laid low. because it's in there. so i've i've learned to do that i had. you know first when covered hit it was. shocking for me i mean all my clients in. my business which has been my backbone. for 21 years. just closed down and and nobody said are.

you guys okay. they just stopped work i had 55 people. well what the actual [ __ ] is happening. here. and i'm talking to my kids about being. connected to your source and i'm like. jesus wept i've got to pay for all this. and i don't know where i'm going to do. this and i'm just looking down the. barrel at 60 and i suddenly went into. that complete. fear i was like you need to pull this. back i was. actually pretty i felt i was a little. bit ashamed that i wasn't better. if i'm honest i was such a shock.

such a shock and i've written about it. in the first chapter of my book because. i want it was so shocking and it was. like well they were falling down like. dominance. that the the clients and we were like. what we thought as a business was just. going. [Music]. um and it just slowly but surely i kept. on connecting back to that. sense of me that deep truth that the. world would look after you. there was a great interview i heard and. i can't remember who it was.

and i can't remember i'd like to think. but i remember he was a he was a. a philosopher and he and he said we're. talking about money. and he said think of a time when you've. never had enough. can't think of a time when i've never. had enough money i've had very little. money. but i've lived and i remember just. holding on to that. when it when is the world never ever. truly looked after you. and if you can realign back into that. sense of.

connecting and not go for the short term. whether it's you know following a route. that you're you're trying to short term. fix it through stress or through that. anxiety. and you connect back to that true source. it always works. you said during the pandemic you you. felt. it almost was as if you were saying you. felt shame that you weren't. good enough i wanted to get. more detail on what you mean by that no. what i meant was that i i.

the work that i'd done on myself on. knowing. that you know this too shall pass. connect back you will be all right the. world will look after you. i i didn't well it took about a month. and then i was like okay and i had. all the kids under one that was. homeschooling happening. i was on you know phone every single. morning with the ceo of my business we. were on. facetime it was you know we were on zoom. calls hideous it was like.

all the time it was this world that. you'd been thrown into. where i thought all right you know. approaching 60 ease up now port us. you know you don't need to be doing as. much everything just fell apart. bam like that like that. oh my god what has happened here. so i was a bit disappointed that i. wasn't more. you know arm baby really okay. i was like sort of done a lot of work on. myself but i got it back i got it back.

she says talk to me about so i want the. detail as to because i i read that. you'd said you you felt like you were. spiraling. out of control a little bit when the. pandemic first struck and i think a lot. of people can relate to that. that sense of um panic total uncertainty. and i mean we had all of our like high. street clients. completely just cancel all work not even. because they were. they'd gone bankrupt but because they. just didn't have certainty themselves so. yeah. they just stopped it was either like.

totally stopped or paused or wait we. don't know what's happening here right. so if i and you you have in your agency. you have. pretty much all high street players. right so i can't imagine. and so i want to know when you say you. were spiraling what does that mean. uh well for example one of my clients. was a big piece of business that would. do the other side of the world i won't. mention. it was a million and a half pounds bam. clothes done. stop that stopped you like what what i. meant by that was i.

i've never in 21 years ever had anything. where i thought. financially i've made myself so. financially secure. over those years i've never had anything. that thought that might go. i've never i've never wanted huge. amounts i like a really good life. and i have a very good life but i've. never wanted. you know the big amounts i've always. thought you know this is this is really. good and i so i've never i've always. shared the pie as it were you know i. like a big slice of the cake but i also.

i like sharing it out so i was never. i've gone ahead i've got. never that i like a lovely life and. and so suddenly this was like that might. not be the case. and you are the young lad that you've. got to put through school. you might be working till you're 70. whatever. to get this back up but i was like i. don't want to do that. you know so it was going against my my. flow and my energy as well you know. that i wanted to go off and do other. things i was ready to go and do the. the things that one should be doing at.

60 plus when you've had a. very big career and doing stuff that and. i suddenly go oh god i've got to get. this back on. and so i just didn't like the way that. that frightened me. it did frighten me you know there were. sleepless nights. but then suddenly this place of. acceptance came and you realize. there was magical times where i thought. i am in lockdown with all three of my. kids. you know one of which had left home. one who's doing a masters and one who.

was eight. this isn't going to happen again you. know and there were times where they. were just out in the grass playing. around with us together. and that's that's the magic you know. that's the magic for that little man. there with his big. brother and sister there were times we. just would sit up on um. a place near us in swift's hill and just. look at flowers and draw flowers and i. thought. this isn't going to come again like this. and so i was able to sort of. slowly but surely build back. and things got better and there's a huge.

debate now about. what the new normal will look like. especially as it relates to working. and remote working and i wanted to get. your stance on. this whole remote working debate i'll. give you my opinion first because my. opinion tends to be quite controversial. i tend to think people have. overestimated the um. remote working thing and i say this. because i believe that the office is one. of the last sort of institutions of like. community and human connection. dating's gone socializing facebook. social media. dating we now have all these dating apps.

and it's felt like in my life especially. as like a 25. 26 year old whatever that going to the. office was actually one of the places i. actually got to meet people. in my life and and connect and form. communities and go to a football team as. an adult. and if that all moves to zoom now like. every other part of my life is dictated. by. a glass illuminated screen i worry. and we have had people sat in the chair. from. mental health psychologists and all. sorts and the the consistent theme. for them has been if you can give.

someone community and connection in. their life. then they um then they do better they. are healthier and i felt like the office. especially i know you've got an amazing. office i've read about it i've. read about the atmosphere there and and. how impressive that is and we also. went to great lengths when i was reading. about your office it felt a lot like. mine. it's not hierarchical you wouldn't know. who was in charge people are themselves. it's very flexible and open we don't. have these rigid archaic systems in. place. and so it was a really enjoyable place. to be and i would hate.

for that places like that to be um. to disappear i think the old office has. to change and die. and be reinvented but i wanted to get. your take on that. well i think you said it i think you. know i think i think there's a lot of. businesses jumping on the bandwagon. thinking how can we you know save money. on rent. yes and not looking at the mental health. well-being i've seen this. i think my officers we opened them up as. soon as we could. we have two days where we say we want. everybody in. because we believe that is everything.

you've talked about. and i know even when i go in and i will. see them all. and we will have a laugh and we'll talk. about stuff that's. not even in the work world but those. nuggets those little. messages those little nuances that. happen. are what makes us human it's ridiculous. to think we do i heard google aren't. opening those up for another year and. you think. what the actuals stop this have they. actually. asked their people i have a young. daughter who's been working at home.

consistently since she went out to the. world of work. and it is not good for her mental. well-being. and i have watched my children get up at. 8 00 a.m. and go straight on zoom that was where's. where's the travel time. where you listen to a podcast or you. listen to a piece of music. or you read something or you bump into. someone on the street and say morning. do you fancy your coffee yeah where's. that gone out of our lives we take this. away. and we take what it is to be human if. you. when i did my high street report i.

talked about exactly what you're talking. about. we lose this we lose. what jane jacobs who wrote the death of. the american city. back in the 60s well before i talked. about this she talked about those little. things where you bump into someone on. the street and you say morning are you. getting a newspaper and you say can you. daughter babysit tonight. she said these little things are trivial. but the sum isn't trivial at. all it is a social infrastructure a web. of security that makes us human. the office is the same the office is the.

same now i started in my office was. saying you've got a baby you can bring. it in. bring dogs in this was like. 10 years ago what you know we need to. ease up and realize. that we need more of this in our lives. i've had to sublet parts of my office. because we had too much space. but we bloody went out and sublet and. fought because we wanted to keep it. because i knew. that this was deeply important. especially to your generation.

and you know i know there's people and. and my kids have seen it they. they said that the sort of 40 pluses. yeah it's nice having some time i. understand that. you can pick up the kid you of course. but let's get that balance. let's get that balance and you're right. the more we close down. the more we squeeze our little souls. because those small trivial things are. what make. up our lives i know that so i. would be so pro it i i really think this.

needs to be the things. that are part of our society which are. deeply important that do need bloody. government intervention i know tories. don't want to intervene and it's a free. market and all that crap. transports one our high streets are one. our national health service is another. and the way we. work and connect i think is another so i. would be putting this on the agenda i. heard on one of those. what is it called question times which i. keep getting asked to go and i think oh. dear god. um and i was listening to there nobody.

was all these sort of aging politicians. who. weren't running businesses who didn't. see the impact. of not of of getting together it's it's. vital please please anyone listening and. if you're listening and you're a. millennial or a gen z. and you don't think you've got any power. pull together get your pals and put. pressure at the top. an awesome open back up. i think that clip will go viral on. linkedin so that's that's great i think. you can reach a lot of people with that. one. my linkedin's very highly engaged so i. think that'll bang um but no i.

you know i think that i'm more at ease. because i think in the professional. world it's going to become a battle. of um employees choosing. where they want to spend their time and. where they want to work and so my. objective here isn't to. so what i what i tend what i feel like i. saw was. these kind of fragile dare i call them. leaders in business. doing all this kind of virtue signaling. on on social media and online going. oh we're going to let our employees. decide and if they want to work and i. i've said. publicly like you as a leader you have.

to have a backbone and your company. culture should be reverse engineered. from the mission. so you know if you're if you're i don't. know building cars then you need your. people at the factory but also. work should be it should offer more than. just pay. and if it is to offer more than pay. something meaningful it would be. community connection. and these things so my stance as an. employer is i'm going to create the. environment which offers you more. community than you're going to get. anywhere else. good pay more free more flexibility. around things that matter in your life. kids etc and i think i'll be able to. hire all your staff.

that you have working from a zoom screen. at home and i think eventually you'll. figure that out and you'll go back. but yeah and that's my [ __ ] yeah. that's what i think i think it's a. competition of like the anatomy i'm with. you. you know it's it's look you as i say. you're young. i remember when i wrote work like a. woman i was like looking at this and. thinking who. who created the code who wrote this [ __ ]. how do we want to work i want people in. my business that have a voice that feel. i will sit with a 23 year old and i know.

we'll sit and have a great conversation. as much as. the 45 year old is running the business. i we've actually put that with these two. days. when the chief execs in we want everyone. in. because this is the time when we learn. this is the time we laugh and we. really do laugh i mean i'm the biggest. joker the biggest kid in the office of. mine. and my daughter's been coming in so she. can get some just some interaction she. works in food policy because something. completely different. and she goes mom you're the biggest kid. i said i know i need people around me i. need it and i. love to laugh and it's just fantastic.

when you're in an office and you hear. that. and it's not difficult this stuff you. know it's all about. when you feel as confident as you do. you're able to give up that control yeah. that's what you're giving up and saying. you know what i know who i am. and i want you who works with me to know. who you are. and so let's give up that control that. doesn't mean that i'm going to have any. lazy bath. coming in and you know sauntering in. whenever they want and taking no. they know i talk about the kindness.

economy the kindness economy is doing. what's humanely right. it's not taking the piss so you have. very you know. strong ethos and ethics and guidelines. of what you believe. your business is and where you want to. go but let everybody be themselves. within that. and part of that is connection i mean. it's fine for me sitting in my north. london. you know home working or i'm in the. cotswolds what about the ones who i've. seen them on zoom. in their bedroom sharing a flat you're. waking. in there and you're doing zoom and if.

any. owner of a business or organization. isn't understanding that. shame on you and think about it they're. then probably. picking up a phone to do their dating. then when they're hungry. they they pick up the phone and open. ubereats and deliver and order their. food. and it's conceivable that this. generation and i actually write about it. my book i show how we're getting more. and more stagnant as the years go on. because we're optimizing for. productivity and financial gain as. opposed to human connection we're. actually optimizing we're doing. everything in our power. to sacrifice human connection and.

socializing and even things like. exercise and movement. for increased productivity and um. i think it's time to you know i do i. think the government would be effective. in intervening. i mean oh i've given up yeah i was going. to say i don't know what they ain't. going to come from them. they had some like loneliness i think. theresa may appointed the first ever. loneliness tsar for the uk. who was that jesus i don't know but i. have been knocking on your door there. dystopian like. image of this like these like tanneries. in the streets being like [ __ ] talk. to each other like. do you know what i mean like i just feel. like.

i think um i think it's going to come. that's why in my book i think it's going. to come from business and i think it's. going to come from people like us. changing that 100 percent agree i think. it's 100. politics i think once we get past this. little woke virtue signaling thing which. leaders are doing now where they're like. we'll just let our employees. do whatever they want and they can just. be all out whatever i think then you'll. have the second wave of that which is. um which is reality um you need to talk. about it on your show you need to talk. about this when you're doing business. you need to get this out there. you need to be a voice for that because.

you know it's. um it's only by sharing our voices and. having an opinion doesn't matter who. knocks us so who comes back that you go. no. this feels right this feels right this. is deeply important. deeply important to the next generation. you know we've. really [ __ ] this planet for you guys. you know my generation i've. you know we the generation before me the. the um. the baby boomers they know that so we. have to. we have to hold on to something deeply. precious here and there is a movement. and understanding is. greater and deeper we were blind we were.

blind consumers we thought that having. it all. was having more stuff and living a life. while we slowly killed the planet. and our well-being so it has to be you. guys that go no. if we get one thing out of this that's. going to be there that we're going to. change. all those ridiculous ideas that my. generation and the baby boomers bought. into. quick one i'm trying to get in good. shape for summer as i imagine a lot of. people are. and just in time for summer you'll have. released what i consider to be one of. the most important best products they've.

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you're going to start your journey with. fuel or if you're a current customer and. you've not tried the protein yet. i highly recommend specifically if you. like salted caramel like me. you give this a while back to the. podcast. you say they're having it all and having. more stuff we thought that was it which. leads me. into something else i wanted to talk to. you about i read you'd said um. that you're in the public eye you're. making more money than ever and it was. extraordinarily exciting but at. the age of 48 you found yourself crying. almost every day.

i was probably physically exhausted um. i just didn't get that joy you know i. just was on this. i was doing tv shows radio shows. i had my own collection i had the. business. i had two kids it was it was crazy. and and i was the nature i was the scent. it wasn't like. you know i had some husband who was. raising. me it was me you know and i thought yeah.

but i and the more that comes you'll. know this the more it comes the more it. comes the more it comes. comes keep coming keep coming keep. coming you got to do this gotta do that. and there were parts of it that was just. you know incredible i looked back at it. what. some great years but i was exhausted. and you're not allowed to say that. actually i was thinking about that at. that time there would be those. you know women on the front of the. sunday times magazine like that we can't. show our pose but it'll be like that. you can have it all they got eight kids. and they would get up and they would be.

doing you know yoga at 6 00 a.m and then. having a global call with china or. whatever then you know they'd be. bringing dropping the kids off at school. while chatting to god those whoever. sorting out. the day and you just thought oh god how. [ __ ] is that life. where are you where are you and i lost. me. in that it there wasn't times where it. wasn't. fantastic there was but where was i. i didn't stop to breathe i didn't stop.

to truly connect. truly connect with me and i remember i. went away. um to some very expensive spa place. where it was all. on shanty and downward dogs and eating. stuff and everyone's all this. you know you go where rich people are. because you got money and you go and you. discover you. and um and i remember sitting in this. yoga session and i just was crying and i. was like. please stop please don't marry please.

stop and there's all these sort of. women in their lululemon and i was going. just crying. and i thought and i went in to um. there was this wonderful indian guru. i used to sit in this little room which. you could go and meet and chat with and. i remember going in to see him. and he didn't say a word and i just was. crying i didn't want to speak with him. but i wanted to go to the bookshelf that. was behind him. because i knew there were some books. there and i picked up. eckhart tolle's new earth.

and i just took it and as i left he went. that's the right one. and i went back to my room and i read it. and i read it on the beach days and i. was like oh my god i've got the world. wrong i've just completely got this. wrong. and that was a start of my journey. it took many years i'm still you know. getting still. partly hybridizing that life i'm never. going to sit in an ashram but. i i discovered how to connect back.

truly with me and stop loading this. stuff in your life mary. and and saying no two questions there. which is. regarding this book this eckhart tolle. book that you you talk about. um a new earth what was it what was the. the key lessons that. imparted on you about life and how. you're living. i'm i was living totally outwardly to my. ego and my persona. marry portis mary with bob mary the. business woman.

marry the mother i was not connecting. truly with. who my spirit my soul. so everything was done to feed that. and you believe that that is you you. believe that that is your personality. you believe. all of that you talk about you thought. you'd become a bit of a caricature. oh for sure but i also milked that that. was very profitable. but you know i knew it was brand mary. the red bob the rings you know i've.

always loved fashion awards lots but it. was very much you know. a signature so and um. yeah of course i mean i i advise. businesses globally on brands i was i. suppose a brand why itself. and i i just didn't want to be that. anymore philosophy is very clear on this. idea of like abandoning your true self. and the consequences of your ego you're. out. yeah yeah and it seems like such a. clearly. losing game and i think people listening.

to this are probably have to be well you. are some stage in the process you've. either. um you're probably you're either at the. start and you've not yet tried to. abandon yourself. because you think that you know because. the outside world has convinced you and. incentivized you to do so. especially social media that'll have you. trying to abandon yourself and become. the kardashians whatever whatever or you. are in the process of. um abandoning yourself or trying to and. you're feeling. the sense of despair and probably lack. of orientation that comes with that or. you've come out the other end which it.

kind of sounds like you've. you've got to where you've realized that. you try to abandon yourself and the only. true answer is to. to be yourself because everything else. is despair you either succeed in. abandoning yourself as this one. i think it's called stoddard this. swedish philosophy used to say. if you succeed in abandoning yourself. then you end up in despair. if you fail in abandoning yourself then. you end up in despair so the only. true true path to joy is to. accept who you are yes i think you know. the thing is it's you know it's knowing.

what the truth is it doesn't mean that. we're not going to have on. this we are truly connecting on a truth. here i don't think we're. you know performing but part of it is. performative because we are doing. a job that's going to be this podcast. but it's being on the path some people. never even know that past there. you know most people don't and that. you know it i remember when i first. discovered it and people like don't. you know don't talk about that because. you might sound a bit odd on you know.

spirituality or blood don't talk about. that and you're like. and i didn't for a long while you know i. i. even was chatting to a great producer at. the bbc saying why isn't there a show on. something like this. on the bbc like no don't mention. spirituality in the bbc at the moment. you're like what this this needs to get. out there. and it's not hokey pokey stuff this is. our truth. and i think what i've tried to do is to. allow. the people who work with me.

express that and know about it and we. share it we share it in the business. and it just opens this whole thing up. and there are times when you have to be. as i say performative and be. i'm mary portas you know going out i'm. working i'm writing a piece or i'm doing. a course but i'm rooted in who i am. deeply and i think it isn't whether. whatever we call it whether it's. spirituality whether it's our soul. whether it's our spirit whether it's our. truth whether it's our vibration whether.

it's our. you know whatever our vortex. or our frequency is oprah says whatever. getting back to that you know i remember. and i was listening to. the um lovely irish uh. irish poet and i'll think of this. surname and i'll think about it and. they'll all come to me after i've done. this but anyway i remember him. talking about when he used to give the. last rights he's been ireland and he'd. go. to give the last rights to whoever was. dying and he'd go in. and he'd see these little pinched faces.

that had lived a life that wasn't in. line with their true. self because they couldn't they had no. choice and. he just said it used to make him feel so. so. sad and then he would give them the last. rights and he would literally see the. pain on their faces their. skin just un un stress. and un wrinkled because they were able. just to be. and that is the greatest gift i think we. can give to anything and and to our kids.

you know i mean i put them through a. great. academic system because i could but i. always said. you choose i remember my daughter coming. to me when she just finished oxford she. got into oxford and she was like. um i was deeply proud. and she finished a degree and she said. mom i know. everyone's going to expect me to go in. and make a lot of money i don't want to. do that. i said why do you explain that to me. like you know i'm really going to judge. you on that. and um she wanted to do something that. just connected not with which. but with where her truth was and that's.

the only thing i think we need to try. and find in life now your truth probably. was that you know. you wanted to get to that place where. you were able to say. i did this because that's the truth that. was important to you because everyone. else is saying you can't do something. you're not sitting in this system i was. much the same. much the same yeah i met some old school. friends they were like. whoa you know my life because i was just. always the one in trouble or. i remember getting 17 percent in physics. and thinking i don't give a [ __ ].

i don't give a [ __ ] oh my god i was like. 17 i never felt embarrassed i was just. like. i knew i was a bit different as well. though you know you felt different. i felt different but i wanted to be like. the middle class girls. that were living in charlie wood and i. came from the working class. so it was the kids from watford that got. into. the grammar school that that were the. sort of that parents didn't have the. money we used to get the bus out and. then the middle class from charlie wood. and all those areas just. their parents used to drop their cars.

and then they'd get to the sixth floor. they drive in themselves i was like oh. my god i want to be this. and then i went nah nah. i don't want to be that life oh my life. i want my life. brony ware talks about the same thing. she interviewed people on their. palliative patients i think it's called. on there who does this. brony ware she was a an australian. palliative nurse i don't know if that's. the right word. and she interviewed people on their. death bed and asked them one question. which was what's your biggest regret. as they were dying wow the number and. she released the blog and it the number.

one regret of the dying. as she writes in her blog was quote not. living a life true to myself. oh man i remember watching the film of. alan turing and it just actually. heartbreaking and here was a gay man who. could not. live his life and i just thought that. has got to be i think that sort of. the 50s and 60s was worse than any time. you know that american dream of the. housewife and being the the. two kids and living the american dream. and. actually you had to suppress your.

sexuality. your frequency your truth your love. your ability to soar isn't that just. the worst torture torture. torture daily hourly yeah. yeah subconscious torture almost yeah. and it's still going on in hollywood. yeah. you you married a man i did marry a man. then a woman then a married woman. and i'm with a woman now well i never. it's interesting i i don't.

i don't know whether female sexuality is. particularly different. from male sexuality but i'm. i've been in love with two men in my. life and i've been in love with two. women. i've never sort of i never was a child. oh my god i'm a lesbian. i fancy linda evangelista i've got to do. something about it. i know i had relationships with women i. had relationships with men and. it just didn't ever bother me um but. once i. had fallen in love with the woman i.

remember you know saying to my. sister she was like but you're not a. lesbian i said well i don't know what i. am do i have to put a label to it. and the interesting thing is. when i did and you know and married mal. that. all the prides and the you know they'll. grab hold of you and put lesbian. oh okay well i've got to do this for the. sake of all of you and be a voice. which i wanted to be but you kind of. also go now you're also labeling me yeah. it was a really but i also don't want to. let you down stone war.

and i will do the opening speech at. pride because i know you need women and. i've just had another one that came. through on you know lgbt. virgin radio mary would you go into. right. i don't want to be also categorized in. that way because i'm not a former prison. as well though isn't it well it is. but i also don't want to not be a voice. because i think it's important for. you know when when i did uh meet mel. there wasn't there was. no women in the public eye besides sandy. toxic. who were in same-sex relationships and i. remember this. my children having to you know when they.

went to school there was no books on it. i mean i'm talking what are we milo's. now 26 so i'm talking you know he was. nine. there wasn't so i thought i had to do. that and i did it and i don't mind doing. it. but you know there is a fluidity to it. labels good and bad yeah those kind of. labels those like. socially categorizing labels where they. put you in the label. because they maybe want to understand. you but because they want you to rep. like lead the charge of a movement i get.

that obviously young black. yeah yeah you know guys there's not. actually many many of us up here in the. young. yes male represent category. and i'm only actually half black i'm as. black as i am white because my dad's. like my mum's black and i'm like i will. represent the black people. yeah stand behind me and then you feel. okay yeah you say yeah as you say. yeah you know there's probably a net. positive impact of me doing that for. society. so i'll take on that uh responsibility. but then i go back to well i know who i. am so write what you're saying.

write what you like and say what you. like because. i know intuition hmm topic i've heard. you talk about a lot. you'd said previously that the biggest. mistakes in your life had come from not. listening to your intuition. [Music]. what comes to mind when i say that which. mistakes i think you know i i think i'll. know when i'm. needed to have got out of you know. relationships and. it kept telling me something and kept. telling me and you're like oh no. no i've suppressed that i've suppressed.

it in times where i've you know thought. in business i don't particularly like. this person. and yet they pay me a lot i've. suppressed that. and it always ends up always you know. you feel it you feel it and ideas. sometimes you know ah they just come. if you're really really feeling free. and in tune they just come and they're. they're wonderful it's been my. it's been my i'm sure it's yours but.

it's been my. you know ability to sort of feel. something deeply know that that's right. and you can get people that can analyze. put data behind it logic and i've. listened to them in the past and i've. let things go ah. not regret but oh that. you know even you know now. i i've always bought i've always wanted. to do and it's just trying to get an. idea you know a totally. sustainable secondhand recycled.

vintage take a whole space like a. massive mail that's closed down and. create tomorrow's. where you everything is about you know. recycled upcycled vintage remote. and i've got to get on and do that but. it's too big. but i just know it will you know and so. i have to follow the instinct on on. doing that. but i think just just sometimes you just. it's the small things as well it's just. the small things where you feel. it's come from there and you push it.

down because you put too much logic and. reason behind it. and i think in business we need to let. that open up so much more. certainly in my area of business i. reckon we ended up with such. so many crap businesses because logic. data and systems overtook. instinct creativity and innovation and. we need to bring that back. and interestingly you talking about high. streets what has come back is. people understanding the importance of. connection and community. through high streets and we will see.

that coming back um. and i you know i had the labour party. get in touch with me and saying they. wanted to re. you know look at what we were doing on. the high street report 10 years ago. because when i did it 10 years ago. they didn't understand that it was all. about bottom line. all about bottom line what's your view. on. the younger younger generation coming up. you know there's a lot of i think we. talked off. off microphone about um some of the. themes coming out of. you know this this uh instagram. generation like.

you know it's like really binary cliches. like find your passion. there's this idea that like um working. hard is now. toxic um and just generally what you. what. what's your if you were to impart advice. or you were to give a perspective on. this kind of like instagram generation. who and their perspective of the working. world um. what advice would you have for them. i think you know the there's the good. and the bad and the ugly isn't there i. mean i think. it's i think it's a really tough world. to be in.

that you are always on that's a very. tough place to be. um and i purposely you know don't do as. much even though i should be you know. because i just say i only want to do. something when i really have something. to say. and i know it drives some of my agents. around the bend you know it's in social. media. yeah and i think it's deeply difficult i. think we've got. two strands coming through i think we. it's used as an incredible place for. voice and change to happen and i think. the gen z's. are going to be probably the best.

generation that we've seen in. a very very very long time and the more. i read about the more my i have a social. anthropology unit. in my agency the more we research this. the more i utterly love them and i'm. more i want them to make this world. better. and i think they will and you young. millennials absolutely i think. and i think there's a lot that comes out. of it that's fantastic. the other part of it is oh boy i would. love. to change what are now used as icons and. role models especially around beauty.

fashion. and young women it is just too much to. live up to. and i i find it that i find. just terribly stressful for individuals. and the way that they've been sold how. they need to look how they need to. behave how their body needs to be what. their beauty regime should be. it's it's ridiculously tough and i you. know i. i live in a society where i'm seeing a. young generation that are pushing. against that but there's an. awful lot of young women particularly.

and men out there. who how they are looked and how they're. perceived and what their life is like. and and 40 pluses i look at some people. on facebook and i think. really you're still doing this [ __ ] you. need to go out there and. show what new shoes you've bought or. what you had for brunch and where you at. really really isn't it a bit of a. pyramid scheme and not a pyramid maybe. like a. network marketing scheme in some. respects or. some kind of like network effects. because what's happening is you let's. say you've got.

i don't know the kardashians at the top. then you've got people below them. looking up at the kardashians and. thinking [ __ ]. you know what i need to get fake bum and. i need to change this and i need to. change this and i need to post. when i'm wearing my chanel bikini on the. side of that boat so they'd. follow suit which then cascades. downwards and everyone's just trying to. this is what i'm talking about the. pressure i'd love the kardashians to. turn around and say let's not buy any. more stuff and let's recycle wouldn't it. be brilliant. imagine what that would do for. consumerism that's probably the. most impact they could have in the world. is if they just cut out the fakery and.

yeah lived more ethically but they just. they're pinned back by. the financial incentive but i you know. when i was doing my research in my book. and looking at the spend. on the pressure on young people. who follow the kardashians to get the. new this the new that. it's insane it's insane. because i used to look back and think. well you know my mother couldn't afford. stuff. so we just we just put up with it but we. weren't sold the marketing dream. we weren't sold this [ __ ] and this has.

gone. so deeply into society so deeply that we. do need people like you that go this is. just. crap standing up and saying this is crap. and anyone comes on dragon's den trying. to sell that crap. it's almost like the way i see it is um. like social media in this. that the world the kardashians it's like. they're holding a bit of your. self-esteem hostage. and the ransom of the apparent ransom is. you've got to go get that bag too. or whatever and then when you pay the. ransom you get the bag.

you don't get your self-esteem back and. it just increases the ransom just. increases now they're like now you've. got to get an even better bag. and it's just endless like that's. exactly what i wrote about i was part of. that. when i was creative director at harvey. knicks i was i sold this stuff to people. thank you yeah. bloody brilliant look i'm gonna make. this sexy and. and uh and it was it's not dissimilar. now it's just got faster and faster and. faster and faster and faster. and it is totally all based on i'm not. good enough. i'm not good enough we have to convince.

them that there's something they don't. have but need. we really need this revolution there is. part that are doing. it but there's a whole part of society. that are still buying into this. this lack of self-esteem and we as. marketers have been selling that. for years i've definitely been selling. that yeah so. at my previous mayor business. quick one as you guys might know if. you've been paying close attention. i'm in the process of starting a brand. new business and when you're starting a. business there are a million things to. do from branding to websites to all.

sorts right. logos videos promotions all of this. stuff and so it's incredibly hard to do. all of these things when you were a. one-man. or woman band and that is where. fiverr.com comes in and solves a huge. problem for me. if you've never used the website before. it is the best place to find. freelance support across multiple. services in the most cost-effective. and reviewed and rated way and i use it. in every sort of facet of my. professional life including. for this podcast sometimes and including. in my businesses and as i start my new.

business. which i'm going to tell you about soon. i've started to rely on it once again so. go to fiverr.com. ceo and check out how amazing fiverr.com. is. you said you know it was something that. i i thought maybe i was the only person. in the world that also felt which was. before we started recording you said. that you don't get excited about things. yeah i mean i have great things in my. diary or someone said oh aren't you. excited you're doing that tomorrow and i. just think no i just don't get excited.

and. you said you don't either i don't know. well i so i didn't actually say anything. but then. my camera guy here jack that's worked. with me for some time says steve always. says that. and it's because there's people who will. say to me oh my god you're doing this. next week or you're going on holiday or. going to this place or you're speaking. in dubai. are you excited and no yeah when they. hit me with the question i go. no no as if you're trying to work that. through because i've never sat with. anyone and worked that through or talked. that through and. and but it doesn't stop me really. enjoying like.

experiences the experiences and there. and now i don't put it up there maybe. that's the thing. for me i thought and i might be wrong. but maybe we're going to work it through. now i thought. my lack of excitement was a defense. mechanism because i also need to defend. against going down. when bad things happen so i think over. time i've just. developed this character trait where i'm. just here in the moment focused on what. i have to do right now and i'm trying to. be. stable and calm so i don't swing upwards. with great news i don't swing.

downwards too heavily with bad news and. that also means i don't swing too far. into the future. or swing too far into the past that's a. really good maybe. that's it because my friends get excited. about small things and big things. well i've got dinner table at brat and. you're like. great but it doesn't it doesn't excite. me yeah i don't know that maybe that is. maybe that is a subliminal thing that. we've both done i. i hadn't thought about that but i felt i. even had it like. my my partner said to me oh you've got.

that aren't you excited. and i said no and i actually have to. tell you i don't get excited. but my girls going into therapy yeah you. have to sit you down and tell you i. don't get it that doesn't mean i don't. feel joy yes. that doesn't mean i don't feel complete. but i don't get excited or maybe. someone's going to listen to this some. really. incredible psychoanalyst and they're. going to go we'll go and we'll work this. out and tell you why. it is really interesting because you as. i think it's so important for you.

for you to say what you've said there. which is you still enjoy yourself when. you're there and doing these things. but it's like future anticipation. and i think that must come from living. having lived a very. intense life where the most important. thing in your world is. being in the present right now and. fixing the thing right in front of you. yes. and you've probably not had a ton of. time to sit but then also also i have to. say the privilege of having. had so many great experiences yes. you know so there's not really a. restaurant you've not been to that's.

been a mate you know like you've been to. amazing restaurants you've been to. amazing places you've done. achieved amazing things so you're bro. you're sort of like threshold of what. might. it doesn't seem that anything excites me. you know i remember. now you've said something and i remember. just i i think it's being what you talk. about totally connected i remember. a true surge of joy coming through my. body. [Music]. when i was walking through a supermarket. this is nothing to do with the. supermarket. but i had my baby daughter in front of.

me. and i had my husband with me with my. little son and i was. totally in a place of joy in a. supermarket. but there was something about this. place of these two beautiful kids i had. love it's just and i remember. this search coming and i'm like i feel. really happy. and i've had other times like that and. they've not been. sitting in can at a restaurant they've. been.

really fundamental. simple simple simple places. where i felt that surge of joy okay. where you where you feel you're an elect. i can feel it now right the way you can. put it and you can feel your energy. going through your body which is. beautiful. and i would rather have that than this. excitement. if i told you that later today you were. going to. walk down the street and feel that same. surge of joy that you got from the.

supermarket would you be excited. no if i told you now that when you walk. out this this door you're gonna as you. walk out down the street. i promise you you're gonna feel that. surge of joy would you be excited to. no but i feel that warmth and that. energy going through my body that thinks. yes i want to be in that place. but it's not excitement and because what. i was trying to figure out there. is if excitement to us i was trying to. figure out if we. the reason why we don't get excited is. because we've realized that true joy. doesn't come from the restaurant or from.

the. holiday or from the the going and doing. the tv thing whatever. it's actually really the joy comes from. something that's actually very hard to. predict it's like those. really meaningful moments and so when. someone says are you excited to go to do. that experience on tv you think well. that's not joy. and in fact joy will come in those. really random moments random yeah. i sat in the garden with my sister last. week and i my sister and i love my. sister. she's just one of the great people i. know. she was always quieter as a kid and she.

always let me be like she was three. years older but she. was always like you know when she was 18. and i was 15 she'd take me out to the. clubs like no one's done it you know. like she was like come on. and i just sat with her it was just a. moment we were just sitting together we. weren't speaking. and it was just that moment where that. connected you can see it in your face. when you when you describe these moments. yeah your face lights up. yeah that that's joy that's what that's. why. when you talk about the office and we. talk about the high street. it's the trivial what we think are.

trivial that's what. makes the world that's what makes life. that's what fuels us. laughter in the hallways and those. little jokes and catching up on what. happened on the weekend and stuff. totally or like me trying to wash the. dog in the garden the other way and. i my partner nearly was waiting for. laughing because i couldn't get the dog. i said bam over here. the hose was going everywhere and it was. just that moment of madness. and joy that the little dog running. around the garden it was just those. things. but also maybe we don't resonate i was.

just thinking then with the word. excitement because think about what that. word means when i think of the word. excitement i think. that's not a that's not a state that i. live my life in never so. when someone said are you excited i. think well am i oh. no no never so maybe there's a better. question which is. are you looking forward to the. experience or are you um. i don't know maybe there's a better. question but i don't do that either yeah. looking forward isn't because you're not. looking forward to it. you know are you happy you're doing it i. don't know.

your mission now in life seems to be. focused a lot on them as you say like. making businesses kinder. and it seems to be much more. philanthropic than it's ever been before. why why does that matter i don't know. just came to me it's one of those things. that came to me. a certain point certain time. well i i about. five ten i can't remember the years.

where they go but about. seven years ago i looked at my business. and thought. i remember it no it's not longer than. that it was eight years ago. and i my little baby son was born. and um this beautiful little man came. into the world and. on he he was born on the monday. and on the saturday my 18 year old son. was going. out into the world to university.

and i mean obviously this you can. imagine the emotions that are going. through my body there's this young. man that's coming to this world and this. young man is going out into this world. and it was just visceral and i i i do. cry when i'm feeling. you know um happy or sad or i listen to. great music. i can it clears me especially if it's. nick cave. and um i kept on crying and just.

this movement and i remember sitting. with milo who was going off to do the. very bright land he was going off to do. philosophy and economics. and we were just chatting on the bed i. remember clearing his bedroom and. there's a little cricket back there and. i don't get emotional because i remember. going off to find the cricket bat and i. remember also being. really [ __ ] off because all the sports. shops was closed and they become joby. sports and jiggy sports you know like. no that's not a sports shop i want to go. to a sports shop where someone says i'll. give you the cricket back and. knows about sport and but i found one.

in in in sherburne where a friend lived. i found this little and i was looking at. the crooked back and thinking all the. memories you know it's just that lovely. numb. packing his stuff and i'm just looking. at his little hands sitting next to me. on the bed or big hands and. stuff what do you think you'll probably. do because i don't know because. i'm doing economics it goes and i. suppose i'll end up going into finance. in the city and i was like i just. remember this. like this deep and i remember sitting. there and thinking. [Music]. that's not your frequency that's not you.

i mean you're you're. go getting your but you've grown up with. me. and you're gonna have to change you. [Music]. to go into that world and then i looked. at the little horatio the baby thinking. this is. this is what we all do we all bloody. have to change. and i thought actually i've done this. i've i've changed i became you know when. i was on the board of harvey nichols the. business woman. when it was mary queen of shops when it. was married whatever on the tv i was. that.

what the hell am i doing am i still. doing this. and so i went on that journey then and i. that's when i decided to change the. whole way that i ran the business. and i wrote work like a woman on that. realizing that actually what i had. suppressed. was my deep sensitivity and i called it. my feminine instinct because i do. believe. the power of the feminine has been. suppressed over millennia. there's no two ways about it there's no. two ways about it. we have created a male dominated.

alpha energy in the world because we. killed and we through through the church. millions of women who were the sages. who were we've suppressed femininity and. that. power is the power that's going to take. us through. into the next part of the world and i. started looking at this. and i started i never saw myself as a. feminist. because i'd you know look at me i looked. at my life why do i need to be that you. know. and i started to go what are we doing.

with our children through work. that we this young man has to suppress. his creativity his sensitivity. to go and be a bastard basically because. they get to the top this was at the time. of you know. money power fame those are the ones your. trumps your philip greens you hear loads. of what you. unite them they're brilliant yes sir. this. and i started to go on that journey then. so that's exactly when it was it was. eight years ago.

nearly nine and i wrote the book. created a new culture in my business. opened up started to talk about stuff. that made me feel vulnerable. started to bring in this more. compassionate way of working and. actually connect with what would have. been seen as. soft skills or hr department actually i. believed were going to be the new power. skills. love kindness actually. no because before you know 12 years ago. if someone wasn't working. like oh done out.

you know boom on to the next you're not. good enough how do you do that what's. going on in that person's life. i remember discovering one of our great. creatives. suffer with depression and he'd actually. told someone else. and one day he's like that i wouldn't. have looked at that before okay how do. we work with this. so i started on that journey then and. then i realized that you know. over the years that even the planet. that we were killing was all part of.

this the way that we. suppressed ourselves in search of more. we've just killed the planet we've. killed our well-being. and i just kept on going on the journey. and then i did a ted talk on it. um and they asked me to do a ted talk. and i thought what am i going to talk. and it just kept them coming up this. theme so i talked on. when i called it we need the kindness. economy we need an economy that isn't. about growth. that isn't about money at any cost that. just doesn't measure. linear how do we create well-being.

it's not that i'm anti-capitalism i like. money how do we create a world to that. and i started to go on it. and then covered it bam and it was there. it kept going this is what you're meant. to be doing mary. and i'm looking at how to get back to. make the same money as i did before. and all the while i'm chasing that my. god my business is going there and this. voice is going. just there it's where you meant to be. and then one day i woke up and and i. rang my chief executive i said i think. this is where we need to go and she's. amazing.

and i'm also thinking well she's 40. something with two kids and she's you. know. in this business with me it's all right. me going this is amazing can we. but i think we should go this route and. we talked about it and talked about it. just. and the more i talked the more it opened. up and my head of strategy and my answer. proceed we were all like yes. actually we need to be advising business. on being better. better to people and better to the. planet. and that's how it all started and that's. my journey now. that is it am i excited by it no but.

do i get up and think that it's deeply. in there with me and i just have to. follow it now. and that's where i'm i hope that. explains it. no you haven't done it it's really. powerful and i think it it perfectly. ties into all the. prior themes of listening to intuition. and um. i think that's super super powerful i i. have two more questions for you one of. them relates to what you've just said. there which is. um in a very practical sense what does. that mean for a business to become more. kind. you talked about people and planet but.

in terms of like. the boardroom pay. you know all of it it's actually looking. and going. we we know that simon sinek wrote the. great books on you know. why rather than just it's looking at. what your business. is here for what is your philosophy and. your purpose really understanding that. and connecting it deeply to you on a. human level first of all. and you know you've got a lot of.

wokeness going on and. well yeah our purpose is to make the. world better no. you know what is your true. purpose as a business and now once you. start to work on that. and your self and i've done it through. the book. you then create the environment. through your people to how you pay them. through how you inspire them through how. you connect. your customers through your truth of how. you manufacture. how you create how you collaborate.

you create a different way of being a. business that's not siloed. it's not individualistic you move from. me to we. so everything that you do you are. thinking. that bit wider than yourself it's like. being a mother. or a parent in any sense undoubtedly. i would always put them first always. not evenly always. so you think about that in your business.

doesn't stop me being me. it doesn't stop me developing doesn't. stop me opening up doesn't stop me. growing doesn't. but i am being a responsible connected. kind individual. we need to do this with the world and. the reason i put people. planet profit in their order is the. planet's going to go on without us. we'll [ __ ] it and we'll die quite simply. and it'll regenerate it's done that. as we know i said whatever. but we can make that change happen.

we can do it by being more humane by. being kinder. and by creating commerce. that feeds and gives social progress. as well as financial progress. and it's possible it's totally possible. you know that. now obviously some people go it's all. right from us sitting from her money. doing that yeah. i've made money yeah but i'm doing it.

and there's people who are doing it who. haven't and those are the ones i take. the hat off to. those are the ones and if i can just put. a bit of volume on it then. i will because i've got a bit of a big. mouth. and i actually you know you know some of. the people i admire the most. one guy in particular called novar he. always talks about how if you want to. start taking on some of these worlds the. world's big problems like the. environment et cetera what you have to. do. is you have to make sure people aren't. worrying about feeding their kids first. and foremost. because i don't begrudge or blame anyone.

that can't feed their kids. that that isn't thinking about saving. the environment you know what i mean. because i would be. taking course you know so there's a bit. of sort of fundamental social work that. needs to be done for us to get to a. place where well i mean we can look at. that in terms but it's again what was. value my mother had very little money. but she fed us. and she didn't make us obese by buying. [ __ ] food that was too. cheap yeah same with fashion and people. go oh yeah but that fashion. it's democratic everybody can afford it. you stand out some of those shops. everyone's coming out with three carrier.

bags of [ __ ]. that's going to go into landfill or we. don't market the hell out of it. via that and we tell the truth that. buying something that lasts and recycles. and upcycles. and that you share is actually where the. new. sexy is sex is the word you know i it's. really important that is important i. call it status. status symbols we've moved to now we're. into status sentence how do we create a. world where we understand. that being sentient and connecting with.

experience. and life and being generous in the world. is more important than symbols big move. massive move and we need to look at the. brands we need to look at power in. business. and that's where i'm starting i wrote. down earlier because you said the word. and it's been something i've been very. curious about the word of meditation. what role is that played in your life. and why did you embark on that. practice because it steals my mind and. your mind is the biggest. tool you have that can just [ __ ] you.

over terribly. or it can really ignite you amen. tell me about the upside of meditation. as you've seen it. well i started by doing little podcasts. to listen to someone tell me how to do. it because i was a bit hopeless and. me sitting still ain't great um. and it's just i i do each morning with. it i only do 10 minutes and then i'll. try and do it at the end of the evening. and i still my mind and i just connect. and i feel my energy going to my body.

and i clear and any time a little thing. comes in that says. i go thought and then i laugh at it i. don't get annoyed i just go. and i laugh at the me that's the thought. that just tells you all this [ __ ]. and then i just open up. my energy as much as possible and then. during the day where i find myself where. i might be. going out of sync i just have this thing. that just says pause. and i pause and then i relax and i could.

be sitting in a meeting like this and. where i might be wanting to talk more. i just stop and let it come back in. and it's just helped me hugely. closing the tabs that's a really good. visual. closing all those tabs down but just. they're not great lastly love. relationships something i think. very you know career driven. professionals like you.

um often tend to struggle with for. various variety of reasons. have you struggled with relationships. love holding together relationships. investing in them. i don't think i have i mean i don't. think it looks particularly great that. i've got two. um failed marriages but actually. they there were some brilliant years i. knew they were long. and they created beautiful things so i. don't see them as failure. i genuinely don't see them as failure. it's a part of my life and i.

i've changed i i am not the same person. that i was when i met or. and i'm on a very different part of my. journey and that happens. um and i think we can just get. so hung up on that you know i've had. incredible i've had long relationships. now i've never really struggled. with relationships i don't think. no i've had pretty decent long ones.

as i was on my own the last which has. been the first time in in. ages that was really unique for me you. know. when was this just recently you know i. split up with my. wife melanie back in three years ago. and i was you know three years on my own. still single now. no but i'm not going to tell you who is. that'll be a nice headline. [Music]. who are you with i i i sound fair to. them you know because it's just.

no no one in the public eye and order. would they want we want to be thrown. into it but. but you found that's that's super yes. dare i say exciting. that's some very nice joy but. but but came in a i think i manifested. it as well. really yeah i just thought oh god now. i'm ready for something and i i. genuinely feel i sort of. opened up my we spend so much time. feeding energies that just. are not worth it that you just have to. keep pushing up. in that three years what did you what. was what did you tell yourself.

because a lot of people when they when. the garage is empty they just want to. fill it with anything. do you know what i mean because that. makes them feel they feel complete or. you know. when there's someone there they feel. like they need someone just to fill the. garage but. what did you do for those three years to. patience i guess or you know you talked. about manifesting well probably one of. the most toughest three years of my life. at least three years i. i grieved first of all the loss of your. marriage yeah. you grieve and i think you have to. grieve. and um. [Music].

covert hit not easy i had to gosh on. your own. and or yeah you're on yeah yeah and you. have your kids. and you're resettling where you live so. you everything changed. everything so my business changed. my marriage ended where i lived changed. so it was a huge amount of change and. actually the last thing. i was able to do was bring anyone into. that i had to be. with me um. [Music].

yeah and it was it was very very painful. very painful and. a lot and i i think it's only in the. last. six to ten months i've come through. amazing well listen mary you've um been. just the best guest ever so hilarious. and intelligent and honest. which is amazing i need to be more. hilarious i was just thinking you're. thinking of [ __ ] i need to be more funny. am i funny you are funny yeah. oh that's that's the only time you're. funny through being honest no this is. the thing you're just honest and a lot. of people. they skirt around what they they truly. think because they're trying to find the. correct.

politically correct words or phrases and. you don't seem to give a [ __ ] which i. think makes for great listening. you you're already there well yeah i i. am. yeah but maybe you're more descriptive. so it's even more hilarious. but i you know yeah just thank you so. much my pleasure and thank you for. rescheduling me. another bit of a nightmare you were. definitely worth it. i really appreciate it love and luck for. all you do thank you please shine your. light in the world that's needed i mean. it i'll do my very best.

[Music]. oh. [Music]. you.