Malcolm Gladwell: Working From Home Is Destroying Us! | E162

sorry now I'm getting emotional um. Malcolm Gladwell. business Guru a rock star journalist I. just want to explain things to people. it's not in your best interests to work. at home if you're just sitting in your. pajamas in your bedroom is that the work. life you want to live we want you to. have a feeling of belonging and to feel. necessary and if you're not here it's. really hard to do that what if you.

reduced your life to. the language of happiness has to go. alongside the this question of what. contribution you're making to the world. you live in if you could make an amazing. contribution to society as you have at. the cost of your unhappiness would you. choose that. no wow. we're social animals casting someone out. is the great sin it is not conflict that. drives people away it is neglect that's.

when you do harm. sorry now I'm getting emotional um. it's varied I don't know sorry. [Music]. if we don't feel like we're part of. something important what's the point. [Music]. so without further Ado I'm Stephen. Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening but if you are. then please keep this yourself.

[Music]. um first of all I want to say thank you. I feel obliged to you because your books. outliers blink have been very formative. for me as over the last 10 years since I. was running my businesses and trying to. understand certain dynamics that I. didn't understand those books seem to. arrive in my life at the right time so. it's a real honor to to get to speak to. you today oh thank you. um going back then what are the what you.

know you've become a. tremendously well known and highly. acclaimed writer and thinker and. podcaster but when I think back to your. your early years says before 10 years. old what were the factors that you look. back now in hindsight and connect and. say Ah that's the reason I ended up. becoming the person I am today. oh wow you you mean you say before the. age of 10 yeah like sub 10. well I by at.

the age of 10 I had been I had already. lived in three countries wow Jamaica. maybe even four well Jamaica England and. Canada. and it's possible a brief stint in the. United States so I was well traveled. um although you know you're dimly aware. of these things at that age. um and I had a uh you know I have an. English father and a had an English. father and a Jamaican mother so I was.

conscious of myself as an outsider. a little bit which I think is very. useful. um. and. I was living in that point in. kind of Southwestern Ontario. the kind of one of the. sleepiest but also most amazing. places in. the West I mean a. a place of kind of uh almost absurdly.

happy people and no crime or dysfunction. and you know 10 churches in every. village and. uh a kind of I realize now in retrospect. a kind of magical place to have to I. grew up without any kind of broader. anxieties. so there was I was never scared of. anything there was nothing to be scared. of when I was when I was growing up um. which I realized now was probably an. enormous blessing.

on that first point of realizing that. you're a bit of an outsider why'd you. cite that as being a a good thing. for a lot of people that leads to. bullying and feeling you know feelings. of sort of social inadequacy but why'd. you say that's a good thing well I think. of it as liberating. you know I'll give you a small example. when I first came to Canada I was six. years old and in in rural Canada when. you're six all the boys have been. playing ice hockey since they were in.

skating since they were four. so I remember very distinctly. being aware of the fact that everyone. played hockey and I didn't and also. being aware of the fact that wrongly but. I felt that it was too late for me to. learn so I was permanently outside of. hockey culture I was the only boy who. didn't play which is incredibly. liberating which meant that I could. choose none of them got to choose what. they. wanted to do right I did you know it so. it was like I didn't have to participate. in. these kind of uh compulsory rituals of.

the Canadian upbringing. um and having choices. being an outsider it does allow you. a kind of range of Freedom that is. denied people who are embedded in a. culture. and what did you choose. well eventually running. um but I think I chose just to you know. the amount of time. seven-year-olds spend playing hockey in. Canada is enormous I mean it's just so I. think I just had more time to read and.

kind of it said full-time job for for an. eight-year-old or a seven-year-old. um you know I just I I had a quite a. solitary childhood which again I think. was a blessing. um. you know I think a lot of I didn't I. didn't I had time to kind of indulge my. curiosity and read lots of books and. um I wasn't kind of I see a lot of. children today pushed into unwanted. social interaction I don't understand.

what is it really necessary if you're if. you're seven you'd rather spend an. evening by yourself. isn't that fine I think it should be. fine one of the things that I you know I. read about in uh the story of success. was about the impact that parental. involvement at that young age and this. is kind of maybe maybe somewhat linked. to what we're talking about parental. involvement can have on someone's. outcomes and I my parents were I was the. youngest child of four so my parents had. resigned to the fact that they had to. parent me so I had this huge freedom and.

I think I always cite that as being the. reason I went on to become an. entrepreneur because I had this huge. void of Independence. but um so I wanted to get your take on. on that because I that led me to believe. that. less parental involvement would lead to. Greater Independence which would lead to. better outcomes yeah but except that yes. I actually completely agree with you but. I wonder whether. um you know the kind of so if you're. describing a kind of benign neglect.

which is which youngest children I'm. also a youngest often encounter but. benign neglect is not the same as a lack. of Parental involvement because it's. it's benign neglect it's also it's. considered neglect it's that your. parents have simply they haven't removed. a safe structure around you the. structure remains in place what they've. removed they just stopped hovering over. you they realize it's no longer. necessary or productive or they no. longer have the time for it but they've. not abandoned you.

so you know I think it's you know. sometimes I think we those of us who are. youngest. um do our parents a little bit of a. disservice when we when we when we. describe their absence from our. childhood They're Not absent they're. um they're just simply wiser in a way. that they that they uh that they they. choose to parent yeah I thought my. parents were absent but you're right. the house was still hot we had a reef. over our head I was still attending.

school yeah I got expelled ultimately. for like 30 attendance but I was still. kind of going you know I did the same. thing yeah I read about that I thought. yeah we were similar but my mother was. complicit in my my mother would was. quite happy if I chose to die oh really. well I think she realized my mother is. quite subversive in a very very quiet. West Indian kind of way and I think she. understood that. if she chose to. I didn't have any great desire to go to. go to school on a regular basis I think.

she realized that if she. opposed that desire should make it worse. so she decided instead to endorse it and. so it kind of she sort of diffused. whatever rebellious. intent I had. just by saying she would sign fake notes. for me to give to the principal I mean. she was wow. wow. what about your father what was he like. he said you were very very competitive. he thought I think he was competitive I.

don't know whether I think I was quite. competitive but in a kind of at games. and at running. um my father was a a very very. Englishman he was. from Kent he was uh he liked dogs and. gardening. and long walks in the rain. uh he was. uh exceedingly intelligent but it. combined with a kind of humility that.

was. and I realized that as I get older it's. the humility that was the more important. um aspect of his. uh personality so he would never he was. probably smarter than most people he met. but he would never ever. Make That explicit and he was if he. thought that you even had a slight edge. of knowledge in some domain over him he. would defer to you. which made him an incredibly curious.

he was curious about everything and. would ask. he had friendships with people who had. dropped out of school at the age of 10. I mean he was and he was a man with a. PhD in. you know in mathematics. um so he was a wonderful he was he was a. really wonderful role model for a uh for. a little boy. how did you and why and how did you. learn the value of that humility and the. impact and the importance of it when. you're dealing with other people.

well I think it's because. you can't be a good journalist unless. you have. a kind of uh Baseline respect for what. others can teach you if you're going to. interview be a good interviewer you must. enter into every interview. with the expectation that you know less. that the person you're interviewing has. someone something to tell you. right and that's actually much more. difficult than it sounds because nor in. normal conversation we have an urge to.

assert ourselves and we think we have a. kind of. um intellectual Advantage informational. advantage that's why we you watch people. talk. interruptions are all about often about. the other person asserting. their superiority on that point someone. says oh it'll take me forever to get. here the other person says no it won't. right. you can't be a journalist if you have to. turn that off if you want to Be an. Effective interviewer you have to trust. that. this person ultimately can teach me.

something that I can't learn on my own. even if in the moment I'm not getting. anywhere you just have to quiet that. voice and let them. keep going and keep. you know asking the right kind of. questions that requires an assertion of. humility. um it took me years to Kind of Perfect. that as a journalist. um and I would watch it when I worked at. the Washington Post. I would watch the great journalists and. they all had that just that ability to.

kind of. to to make it plain to whoever they were. talking to I know less than you that's. why I'm having this that's why we're. having this conversation right. it's a beautiful thing when it's done. right when it's done well. it's gonna be reflecting on various. people one of the people that made me. reflect on the interesting he was Joe. Rogan. how he's he feels like such a bridge to. his audience listeners because he does. come across as being tremendously humble. regardless of who's who he's speaking to. he always seems to understand his. intelligence as well. who always calls himself a monkey yes.

that's a kind of yeah yeah well he yes. he well he has this wonderful thing. um where he can put himself. he's squarely in the position of his. listeners which is a really you know for. a for a host of. of any kind of show like that is if you. can do that you can win you're going to. win right he there's there's he's he's. having the conversation that his. listeners wish they could be having with.

with these subjects in his in his uh on. his show. on that point of Journalism at what. point in your your early years did you. was there any inclination that you might. become a journalist you might go into. that profession if any. never in the I mean I had thought about. I liked writing I didn't imagine that it. was a. profession it didn't occur to me that. you could actually make a living doing. it so I always was thinking of other. things I wanted to do and then I kind of. fell into it by accident after my after.

I I graduated from uh University so I I. never really I just I thought something. you did on the side you know I I didn't. it seemed unimaginable that somebody. would pay you to do. this kind of work lack of Role Models. lack of. I mean I think it's a it's a little bit. of a if I grown up in. you know New York or. Toronto or London. I would have been much more aware of. people who who.

you know were in the creative. professions but I grew up in a town of 4. 000 people there were no one there was. no one in my town who made a living in. the creative professions right you you. wouldn't live in a small town like that. and do that so I didn't know I have. friends who grew up in you know. Manhattan and they they knew they knew. film my film filmmakers and actors and. you know fiction writers and is as part. of their parents Circle when they're. growing up I knew none of that what. advice would you give to to people.

around that age say that you know early. 20s just maybe just graduated and. thinking about going off into the world. because I hear a lot of these these. stories about certain small factors can. have such a tremendous impact on your. outcomes like the city you live in would. you encourage you younger people to go. and get into those big cities if they're. if they're trying to. have careers in things like journalism. or Media or whatever or business and how. much of a how much of a swing does that. have because I always think you know I'm. on Dragonstone and I see these.

entrepreneurs coming in and pitching. tech companies and I always think. sometimes I think you're at like a 90. disadvantage versus just being over. there on the west coast of America in. San Francisco. um I I think sometimes I think it's more. than a 90 disadvantage but situational. and environmental factors on outcomes. it's always been this puzzle. in many countries but particularly. United States about why do immigrants do. so well. and. uh you know the one of the explanations. was immigrants to the United States have.

always been very aggressive about. seeking educational opportunities or. maybe they brought with them education. that so that was one argument for the. longest time but now we realize actually. it's less that and more that they unlike. many people many Native Americans are. willing to move where opportunities are. so the the. immigrants are mobile. in a way they don't have any Roots they. don't have family that's keeping them in. one place another they simply make a.

beeline for the. places where they can you know further. their own economic and personal. interests the quickest and the most. efficiently native. people don't do that too many. encumbrances. my advice to people young people is. always where do you want to move. first question you should ask yourself. your your default should be you're going. to move somewhere. right don't fall in the Trap of doing. when you're 23 of doing the comfortable.

thing and staying near family and. friends that's there'll be plenty of. time for that later. only question on your mind should be. where should I move and once you decide. where you move I think a lot of other. things fall into place so if you are. someone who. imagines it you would like to start a. company in the tech world and then yeah. move to move to Northern California or. Austin Texas or Tel Aviv or whatever you. know go where the I think you're. absolutely right you need to go where. the opportunity is it's not going to.

come to you magically and you are at a. huge disadvantage if you're not there. it's it's just no question about that. people have confused the efficiency of. digital communication the kind of um the. logistical efficiency of digital. communication with emotional efficiency. and kind of psychological efficiency it. is it is only logistically efficient it. does not resolve the quiz and help. someone trust you more or take a chance. on you or get to know you in all of your.

complexity yes. I wish yeah it's one of the things my. parents said to me at very young age was. we lived in Devon which is you know. Devon right down in the corner on the. farm. um and they they were very clear at. young age they said you've got to leave. here so just just so you're all well. aware for the four of us you have all. got to go out of this city so when we. were all very clear on that and all of. my friends are still there every single. one of them all of my best friends are. still in Plymouth even if they went to. University in another city they came.

back. um it's not to say that they're not. happier than me and this is maybe my. next question which is. um because like because I hear that. immigrant tell all the time that. immigrants tend to have better outcomes. relatively whatever it might be but my. question becomes um are they happier and. I say this actually because of a. conversation I was having last night. with my friend who has built his family. have built a billion dollar company in. this country. um the dad was the first generation. immigrant here the dad is just. completely overwhelmed with work like he. is obsessed to the point now the sun.

said to me last night I don't actually. think he could he knows what makes him. happier little but because he was in. survival mode when he came here they've. got a billion dollars actually I think. it was worth five billion now but is he. happy. and I I sometimes ponder that the first. sort of generation immigrant is on. survival mode the second generation has. the chance of being in a maybe a. thriving self-actualization. situation but I don't know if you had. any light to shed on first generation. happiness I'm always I'm dubious of this.

so I I all this happiness stuff and I. say this and I'm I'm fully open to the. possibility that I'm wrong but. um my understanding of happiness is. because of the research on happiness is. that it's a fairly stable. trait in other words there are people. who are happy. regardless of where they are and people. who are not or people who don't appear. happy or people for whom happiness. represents itself differently so I would. say of your friend's father.

you know maybe he is happy he just. expresses it differently he built a. massive business he's made his family. stable he's created a secure beachhead. in a whole new country you don't think. that makes him happy when he puts his. head on the pillow at night I think it. probably does it's just not just it's. not the kind of lie on the beach read a. good book happy but it sounds to me like. a. pretty amazing set of accomplishments. that would make him will he die happy.

having done that yes he will I think I. don't know I never met the man but I'm. just I'm wondering generally what's that. people say they've never met a happy. billionaire. I just don't I don't believe that I. think they derive I think people who've. who've um accomplished something like. that they drive a different kind of. satisfaction from it. but it doesn't it's not a lesser kind of. satisfaction. um. you know do I work more than most people. if I look at the cohort of people I went.

to college with University with do I. work more than most of them yeah. probably. uh do I spend less time. you know uh watching movies and reading. books and going on holiday yes. absolutely does that mean I'm less happy. no I think I'm pretty happy. I. you know it's like and I I just I yeah. that's I'm a little bit skeptical of. this narrow definition of happiness so.

so I think I think it's based on this. idea that to be happy or whatever you. have to have this kind of recipe of. ingredients and they have to be equally. balanced you have to have you know. strong interpersonal relationships or. meaningful connections you have to have. you know exercise you know these kinds. of things so when you see an individual. who's so out of balance because they. they just work 20 you know every waking. out of every day and they don't make. time for friends families or walking the. dog people and they're you know consumed.

by it people from the outside go well. that's that's not a happy person and you. would I would think the science would. support the fact that people tend to be. happier when they have stronger more. meaningful relationships and they have. more of more balance in their lives. generally yeah no I think so you. understand I'm making so let's go back. to your friend's father so your friend's. father is uh not someone about whom we. can generalize yeah uh he's clearly a. you know he's an outlier of some.

um. sword he's probably he's in I imagine. there's a whole series of traits that. he's in the 99th percentile on probably. incredibly intelligent incredibly driven. you know list them all so that kind of. person is never going to have. a balanced life I mean you could put him. in. you know the the the the the cornfields. of Iowa and say you're going to be a. you're going to be a farmer that's all.

you can do and he's gonna he's gonna. live he's gonna be someone who's like. working you know 80 hours a week and. right that's just his temperament so the. question is what I'm saying is happiness. for him is probably going to look. differently than happiness for lots of. other people but he's highly unusual. for the average person yes balance is is. appropriate but you didn't ask me about. an average person you asked me about. someone who's who built built an. enormous business from scratch. yeah I worry I think I worry sometimes. part of the reason I think ask the.

questions for myself that I'm being. dragged by my own like insecurity so I. sit here with a lot of you know. successful maybe billionaire CEOs that. have built these great companies and you. find out that the reason they built them. is because their mother. um in the case of one of my previous. guests which was on two weeks ago who. and he said this on the podcast he's got. a billion dollar beer company you find. out because his mother when he was a. young kid basically always convinced him. he was never enough he should come into. his room smash his toys and say things. to him to convince him that he was just. never good enough so he's had this. almost neurotic obsessive drive to prove.

to the world that he is good enough and. you wonder how voluntary that that that. drive is and what it's come at the cost. of and is he really. you know is this individual really. happy and fulfilled or are they just. being pulled by their insecurities but. you know there are maybe another way of. saying this is that. um so to use that person as an example. so he took uh uh a kind of trauma and. made something productive out of it yeah. he had a great deal of certain personal.

costs but he took something that might. have defeated others and ended up. contributing substantially to society I. wouldn't he may not be happy but I would. describe his life as a Triumph. right and the other thing I would say is. that the language of happiness has to go. alongside the this question of what. contribution you're making to the world. you live in that there are many people. who are not personally happy but who. make enormous contributions and that's.

that's a parallel and in many cases far. more important. um function you know was. Florence Nightingale happy probably. probably not Jews she's supposed to tell. from what I know about her life she had. all kinds of psychological issues or. whatever but she made an enormous. contribution that continues to this day. right she started a Hulk you know so. there are like I said I would like to. have a kind of. I would like to the to evaluate people's.

lives along a whole series of dimensions. and understand that not everyone can. satisfy each of those dimensions in any. moment one of those. you know being happy feels like. something that I would like for me. making a great contribution to society. feels like something that others would. like from me and I I wonder you know. which if you could make a huge this is. just a tangent here but if you could. make it amazing you know contribution to.

society as you have at the cost of your. unhappiness. would you choose that. depends on what the contribution was the. contribution you've made in your life. you've helped millions and millions oh I. see uh. would I have done what I did if I. thought it was coming at a significant. cost to my own happiness yeah uh. probably not but then I think the world. you know but if I was doing if I was a. you know uh a a biologist who had.

working on a breakthrough for some. disease I might the calculation might be. different I mean I'm not saving lives. I'm entertaining people or enlightening. them but it didn't read me they would be. enlightened somewhere else I'm not. crucial to the functioning of society. but if I was. I might feel very differently I think. you know it's funny where the I'm I'm. over here because I have this. um book now in paperback the bomber. Mafia and it's a story of these.

uh group of men pilots in the 1930s in. America who have a dream about. a better way to fight Wars and they're. all down in Alabama and they have these. ideas about how the bomber. high altitude Precision bombing can. revolutionize Warfare and save countless. civilian lives their dream turns out to. be. uh. they can't pull it off in a second world. war they they start out the war with.

high hopes and by the end many of them. have had their careers destroyed because. they pursued an idea which didn't work. it didn't work at the time now it does. work they really pioneered a kind of. warfare that is. um essential to the way we think about. war today and as as today you know saves. countless lives didn't work in their. time frame so in a sense they sacrificed. their career and large part of their. happiness for uh uh for a future cause.

they were long dead before it. paid off am I glad they did that. absolutely. would they be glad if you resurrected. some of these guys from the dead and you. said look I know in 1936 you had a. vision about how to make war better and. it was finally realized during the. Kosovo campaign of the 90s 60 years. later. are you happy you did what you did. uh you do feel now that it was worth. sacrificing your entire career over this. lost cause because it turned out not to.

be a lost cause and they would I'm sure. from the grave they would say I am so. grateful that I did what I did right. even though one of these guys one of. them one of the heroes of the book is a. man named Haywood Hansel. brilliant passionate. romantic figure in the second world war. who has this extraordinary set of ideas. about how to revolutionize the era war. in the second world war which he tries. and fails to implement in the war. against Japan and by his by the age of.

40 he's this is a man who devoted his. life to the Air Force he's a career his. father and grandfather they're all like. career Military Officers he this is his. whole world. he's basically through. by the. by his late 30s he's just pushed out to. pasture and spends the next 30 years of. his life basically. as the guy who failed in the second. world war right. he would say it was worth it I think if.

you think so yeah I think he did I think. he would and I'm we should all be. enormously grateful to him for making. that sacrifice. um. I I am grateful for them for making that. sacrifice but I tend to believe that. people are more. motivated by their own. ego than they typically often allow. their own sense of like wanting to. accomplish something so they can be. someone that accomplished something and. I tend to actually think this probably.

from doing this podcast so much where I. often get to the root cause of a. successful person's achievements and. find out it was just time and time again. it was just an insecurity from their. childhood. it was they had it you know they were. bullied they were beaten up and it's. this almost involuntary pursuit to prove. the bully my mum uh being outcasted and. being nearly black in an all-white. school to to fit in or to prove someone. wrong and if and then you look at it. from the outside and you clap and go oh. they were courageous or they were Brave.

no they were insecure so why wait why. why does it bother you that insecurity. manifests itself as courage and. absolutely doesn't I did a a tour of. this country where I opened the show and. say you call me Brave I was actually. just insecure yeah so it doesn't bother. me I just think it's reality we didn't. talk and I think obviously in hindsight. bias we we say oh this person will say. courageous they were so intentional they. had most of the time they were just. insecure like they didn't get Christmas. presents and they were bad but that. makes I like that though because it to.

me to my mind it makes courage far more. accessible when we realize that courage. can have many many fathers I love it. yeah I think it's beautiful it's a. beautiful notion and the idea people can. take what can be harmful damaging. traumatic things like I was saying. before and spin them into gold is this. is the this is the at the heart of what. is so kind of Joyful about you the human. Spirit right it's it's incredible like.

that was actually the the headline of. the Guardian newspaper two weeks ago was. my face with the title that said uh. insecurity was my greatest motivator and. it was and it was because I never. understood this idea that I was because. I expelled from school dropped out of. University after one lecture I never. understood this idea that other people. thought I was Brave when and really I. was like a coward running away from. things I didn't like fueled by. insecurities like oh it was actually. cowardice and insecurity if you're. really being honest yeah and so go match. your point about these um. you know these these people from the.

1950s yeah 1950s 30s I wonder what there. driving underlying force was because. well they were it's funny so there's a. little group of men and they call. themselves the Brahma Mafia. and they are. they're all in their 20s. they're young men in the 1930s and. they're in the army. and there's no such thing as the Air. Force in the 1930s anywhere and Air. Force is a division of the uh of the. Army in most countries and the people.

running armies in the 1930s think planes. are a joke they're a toy right and here. are these young guys and they actually. think planes are what the future of. warfare is and they feel they feel. overlooked and ignored and they're you. know in the 1930s if you were in the. Army you had to spend time you know. learning how to ride a horse because the. Cavalry was still a thing and they would. you know you'd have to. groom your horses and you know Trot.

around the and these guys think this is. a joke right they're just this is the. most absurd thing they've ever seen why. are we riding horses when we've invented. this thing called an airplane which can. fly hundreds of miles and drop bombs and. revolutionize Warfare and no one's. listening to them and they they're they. are. um they feel like they're outcasts. who are in an institution that they. don't belong in and they're they're. really at a loss and their solution is.

they're all up in Virginia right around. the where military headquarters is in. America they decide to as a group move. to the most remote. uh Air Force Base uh In America which. when they say remote meaning as far as. possible kind of psychologically from. Washington DC so they moved to this. little tiny corner of of Central Alabama. um Montgomery Alabama which even today. Montgomery Alabama is the middle of.

nowhere and they want to be they want to. be off by themselves and left a kind of. dream and they have a massive chip on. their shoulder but about that who they. believe to be the the morons running the. army so again you have a and they they. spark this kind of technological. Revolution they dream big and reimagine. what work can be but it's all born of. frustration uh isolation alienation.

um rejection rejection I mean it's it's. exactly what you're talking about here. their motives they come across as these. heroic idealists and. these brilliant kind of technological uh. thinkers that's not. that's not how it begins psychologically. they're disgruntled it begins as these. kind of lonely upset disgruntled they're. like I'm sorry we're out of here we're. going to Alabama and they were they. would they would get us only about 10 of. them and they're on this I've been to.

this Air Force Base even today it's like. it is literally in the middle of nowhere. and they're just like don't call you. know basically they're like we're hiding. down here don't call us we're like on. the you know as it happens it's such a. marvelous Story the second world war. then breaks out when they're in the. middle of all of this dreaming and. there's no one else who's been thinking. about. air War policy and so all of these. disgruntled guys get whisked out of. Alabama and they occupy all the top. positions in the U.S Air Force at the.

beginning of the second world war so by. magic by sheerus chance this group of. Misfits gets plunked into the center of. the American Military machine when. America enters the war in 1942. um so it's like they get a lucky break I. mean if if the second world war never. happened they might still be there like. you know fussing and groaning and. grumbling and which is this other thing. that you know uh thing that I've.

observed in I'm sure you've seen the. same thing in doing this in doing this. podcast is the amount of times that. sheer Serendipity unleashes this allows. the innovator to turn their. um disgruntlement and Neurosis into gold. right it's just something random happens. and boom that they they see a window and. they think that's it right that's a. shaft of light that's my light. um but if the window been closed they.

could still be disgruntled and running. around. history will never know the history will. never remember that yeah we never look. back and see that that outcome so even. in that case it sounded like that one of. their initial driving motivators was. more like I told you so so going back to. your point about would they be happy. today because they never got that. particular I Told You So moment before. they before they died no they yes they. would have had to live to uh you know a. hundred and hundred years old to get out. to get there I told you so a moment the.

question I would have liked to ask them. is. did they did they still have faith at. the time of their death that their. vision would be realized at some point. so there's a whole class of. of uh. innovators who pursue an idea and then. they're just early right and it comes to. fruition afterwards it's a famous case. of a I've forgotten his name but there. was an American.

um biochemist who had this idea for how. to fight cancer tumors. um by starving the. cancer tumors grow you know blood feeds. them they have all these blood vessels. that they connect that's how they and. his idea was let's choke the supply of. blood to tumors and we can kill them. that way and it's called angiogenesis. and physical nitrogenesis someone will. correct me anyway he had this idea in. the 60s and he it takes him sort of 30.

years to figure out that it works and I. I've often wondered and then he dies but. he gets eat just before he dies he has. this kind of. finally boom he demonstrates that his. life's ambition actually works I've. always wondered had he died like. just before. the moment of would he have died happy. did he die. believing it would someday come his his. notion which is in which is kind of if. you think about it it's.

it's intuitively it makes sense if I can. starve the tumor of. of blood of its blood supply I should be. able to choke the tumor that's it's a as. an idea if I just explain that to you. none of us knew anything I'm guessing. about medicine it makes sense right so. he has this idea in 1960 whatever it is. and I think his faith was strong enough. that. had he died before proof of concept. he would still have died happy I think I. don't know though I would love to have. asked him that to have asked about a.

hypothetical question. I mean another thing I've learned from. this podcast is generally that the. destination is just a thing that goal. ultimate goal is just a thing that gives. us orientation but we're always on a. journey and I imagine if he had. accomplished that one he would have set. off on another one another Journey so. um. one would assert that because he was. striving towards a meaningful goal I. always say you know when people ask me. what I want for my life now I say if I'm. striving towards the meaning for goals. surrounded by people I love and I feel I. feel somewhat challenged I am happy yeah.

and the minute I'm no longer striving so. the goal is complete or I'm not around. people I love and it's not challenging. me it's not outside sort of the outer. limit of my comfort zone Then I then. you're not satisfied so he sounds like. someone that was striving towards a goal. a meaningful goal and that was. challenging him so I imagine. accepted lots of other people began to. believe. that he was wasting his time so he has. that he has he is surrounded by a small. Court of people who believe in him and.

presumably a long-suffering wife but. uh the general World in which he's. operating is rolling their eyes by the. end and that's his that's his challenge. that's his challenge so I mean that by. the way as you know incredibly typical. of I mean this this goes into one of my. I'm I'm actually. obsessed with this and this is one of. the reasons I wanted to write about our. Mafia because it is a perfect example of. this idea that it's incredibly simple. but is so often overlooked when we look. at Innovation everyone. including the innovator.

radically underestimates how much time. it takes to bring an idea to fruition so. the reason most innovators. do what they do is not that they have a. clear picture. but rather they are they are. massively deluded about their own their. own idea they think it's so obvious and. they should be able to pull it off in. you know five years if they realized it. would take 30 they would never do it. right so they're they're their their.

success is based on this illusion. they're by definition delusional. um and every but everyone everyone. involved always thinks that just because. I can describe it clearly and I can make. a case or what I'm doing I should be. able to will it into being overnight. right and I I there's not a single. can you come up with a single. significant Innovation that took less. time than the innovator imagined. no just never happens yeah for so many.

reasons yeah I mean legislations that. weren't often the big one yeah that goes. in the way of anything there's a hundred. reasons why everything is takes longer. yeah. um like the the Battle of Lafayette. honestly believed in an idea they. hatched about. completely revising the way war is. fought they thought that you could fight. a war entirely from the air. you would no longer need armies tanks. Navy anything all you would need is. bombers they thought you could fight the. entire second world war with a fleet of. bombers okay they had this idea in 19.

let's say 35. they thought they could. pull it off. when the war starts in 1942 they thought. they could pull it off seven years later. we can't even pull it off today we're. getting close. but like it's been they underestimated. how long it would take to bring this. idea to fruition by like basically half. a century right that's the that's what. they're doing but everyone has this. delusion do you know how long my. favorite example is. the the automated teller machine the. cash machine is invented.

if I'm not mistaken. in the early 1970s now if the guy who. invented it there's a guy forgot his. name we had him right here right now and. we said when you came up with this idea. and whatever it was in 1973 how long do. you think it would take. to spread this idea throughout the. entire world he would have told you. it'll be all done by 1980. it's a. no-brainer couldn't be easier I'm making. everyone's life easier Banks like. consumers like it it's cash out of a. machine all you got to do is punch in a.

code this is the this is not like. computers or I'm not changing anyone's. life everyone wins you know how long it. actually took it took 25 years to make. an ATM machine to make it popular ATM. machines take they're not so they're. invented in the early 70s and they're. not really everywhere until the mid 90s. in the West. why they don't you tell me take a long. time. consumer Behavior has got to change and.

they've got to make space for them and. it turns out it turns out it's. complicated consumers took a long time. to my mother is still not taking any. money out of anything. you know so you know she's still I mean. she's 90. she may eventually. but you know it turns out people are the. thing that that guy and all of us didn't. understand is so when it comes to how we. handle how we deal psychologically with. money we are extremely conservative. so I can give you the I can sit you down.

and say never have to line up in a bank. again. 24-hour access to money and you will. still it'll take a generation for you to. warm up to it a generation yeah that's. it isn't it because the generation is. going to pass because that's too. stubborn to change yeah interesting you. write a lot about this idea of timing. you've written about it in outlines I. believe about the importance of timing. now everything you've said there makes. me feel. maybe a little bit scared as an as an. innovator an entrepreneur because I.

might be 50 years out and listen I'm. trying to quench these insecurities now. so I I can't wait 50 years what have you. learned about how we can. um improve our timing or understand if. our timing is good. is that even possible is it possible to. know if our timing is good when it comes. to inventing things creating things. launching a podcast are we too late. people say that to me a lot is this too. late to be starting a podcast you know. yeah.

okay cat is timing something we can. control or does it just live in. hindsight I well I do think a lot of. people claim. to understand timing and really what. they're doing is they're they were just. lucky. and they're after the fact. assigning themselves you know a pat on. the back for what. um that is not to say though that there. aren't people who. have a kind of. um at least in flashes have their finger. on the pulse of some kind of marketplace.

Steve Jobs comes to mind with. yeah think about Steve Jobs of course is. that he's not he's not a Pioneer in. anything. so he's always late he's late to every. Market that he eventually wins so his. genius was an understanding that being. first is massively overrated he's 10. he's 10 years late on the smartphone. he's. you know every all of the ideas that go. into the first uh the Macintosh computer. are all taken from Xerox Park.

he didn't demand any of that stuff he's. so his genius was in understanding that. if you are the first person and you're. probably too early. interesting but also and he understands. as well that. um that in that world of consumer. electronics. um you're better off being the person. who tweaks the idea than the person who. truly innovates in other words what. consumers are interested in is a kind of. mature. experience with their Electronics the.

average consumer doesn't really want to. be the one who's pioneering how to. work a kind of. you know stage one laptop or home. computer or they don't want the remember. I don't know if you remember the Palm. Pilot Palm Pilot was an early a way too. early smartphone that was big in the. kind of 90s and it it was for it was. used by a very small number of very. technical technologically focused people. jobs would have looked at that and said.

you're never going to win selling a Palm. Pilot it's just not. you need to kind of tweak it two steps. and make it something that an average. person would want to use he was very. commercial in the way that he. um approached uh uh product Innovation. that was his genius so he's in some. sense I think he is exactly what you're. talking about someone who. um who had an uncanny sense of how to. bring something to a mass Market. and when the time was right to do so.

yeah although he yes when I when the. time and when the time was right yeah he. did a very good job of never being too. early. the weird concept of being too early but. not one that people are that familiar of. between the ages of um 24 and 34 you. spend 10 years working at The Washington. Post yeah what was what did you you know. that was your 10 000 hours per se what. did that give you that in hindsight you. realize has been so sort of foundational. and important and significant to what. you went on to do.

those those are 10 years. well it taught me when I was talking. earlier about that thing about reporting. requiring a kind of fundamental humility. it that was. uh. uh was hammered home. in those years. um. I also learned to write without anxiety. so. you can't be a newspaper reporter. if you have any Neurosis whatsoever.

about the act of writing you just have. to you know you have a limited amount of. time the discipline of being forced to. write something every day in a limited. amount of time. for 10 years. um cured me of. a writer's block. ing anxiety you know hey you can't be. that way you're right it's just like. it's like a it's like a boot camp for. writers it just is it um that was. enormously. um useful in.

[Music]. um. in kind of freeing me up to spend my. mental energies on. other parts of the writing process right. what about writing generally and the. value that and role that writing has. played on your. self-awareness your personal development. because you know we're living in a. generation I think where writing is. becoming less popular and maybe even. less necessary. maybe that's true maybe it's not.

um but I because I do this podcast. because I have other obligations to. write because I have a Instagram. following of millions of people that. expect me to write things every day. I started having to write like it was. the discipline I had to do it at 7 pm I. had to post something and it only in. hindsight I've reflected on how much. that changed my life it helped me. understand the world I was living in. because every day I have to say. something that's true. and in hindsight I go [ __ ] I wish. someone had told me how how much I think. I could Advance my wisdom understand. myself just by.

having having some kind of commitment to. publish. every day more from like a personal. perspective you know I'm wondering if. that's if it's if you found a similar. thing I tend to think writers people. that have a something making them right. every day and publish are infinitely. just so much more wise and Incredibly. more self-aware. similar thing with podcasters to be. there. so I think of curiosity as a habit not a. trait. um and I think that too often we think.

of it as a trait not a habit by that. distinction I mean. it's not people are not naturally. curious or not not naturally curious. they there are people who have. cultivated the habit of curiosity and. those who have led at life life fallow. what you're describing is an. institutionalized a way of. institutionalizing the habit of. curiosity if you are required to write. something every day. then you are you've put yourself in a.

position where you're forced to think. about and look for things to write about. every day that's institutionalizing the. habit of curiosity right I think all. successfully curious people do that in. one form or another put themselves in. situations where they have to come up. with. some new idea or have to are forced to. look for interesting new things or you. know why you know. um anyone who has ambition does this for.

many people. the idea you know ambition is very often. rooted in a sense of dissatisfaction. with your current state of knowledge. um or practice what does what does. dissatisfaction do it is another. institutionalization of the habit of. curiosity it forces your your. unhappiness and dissatisfaction with. what you know forces you to go out and. look for a solution to that feeling.

right find things that to keep going and. you know instead of stopping get up and. look again and so these are all versions. of the same. um of the same thing so I I sort of. agree with you that there's. writers who have obligations writing. obligations do it's a tremendous. advantage in terms of of. um of uh pushing pushing them to kind of. think freely about things. The Tipping Point.

in you wrote that book in 2000 yeah. did that change your life. well it uh it was it it allowed me to. think you could make a living writing. books and it validated my feeling that. the way in which I wanted to write books. had an audience. so I was on I didn't know I had a. particular way that I wanted to write. books but I didn't know whether anyone. else. liked it shared my Approach so that book.

made me think oh okay there's a there's. a universe of people out there who. um who are into this kind of thing and. that was that was again freeing you know. at each stage in my career I've been. lucky enough to go through experiences. that allow me to shed various anxieties. The Washington Post sheds anxiety about. writing. Tipping Point sheds anxiety about. whether the kind of writing I want to do. as an audience those are two enormously.

freeing things what was the way that you. wanted to write that you were unsure if. the public would receive. I wanted to jump around and go on lots. of digressions. I wanted to use. uh I wanted to make ideas as. make adventure stories around ideas not. about necessarily around people or. narratives. I wanted to kind of ransack the academic. world for really interesting insights. and apply them to kind of everyday.

stories I wanted to kind of like. it's an idea of like. um making a book that is a jumble of. different genres right so in the course. of reading a chapter you should. entertain a new idea meet an interesting. person. be have something that you believe. challenged it should be fine to have all. those components in one chapter of a. book. and the next chapter it should be fine. to move on to something completely. different that was what I wanted to do I.

wanted to jump around. all the success you've had as a writer. has resulted in you now being doing a. lot of public speaking. one of the things when I was reading. about your your sort of philosophy. towards public speaking that surprised. me was that. um you say you don't try and start a. public talk with a wow. with it with a wow moment I think the. quote was that never starts his talks. with a wow moment or anything to hook. them in but it says tries to draw them. in slowly. and this surprised me because I I've. always thought that the opposite.

approach was better as in like when you. walk on stage people are typically on. their phones whatever and you don't have. their attention so trying to get them to. pay attention within the first 10. seconds by saying something. that is somewhat I don't know. provocative was a better approach I was. Keen to hear why you take that stance. the question is what do you want your. audience. and in this sense it's no different from. writing what is the experience you want. your audience to.

go through you have them for whatever 45. minutes an hour. and I want them to feel that they have. progressed. I don't necessarily want them to agree. with everything I said or think I'm. wonderful that's not important I want to. be in a different place than they were. at the beginning so to have thought. about something that they hadn't thought. about. to have moved their position on. something a little bit to be emotionally. in a different place so if they started.

out one way I want them to be something. somewhere else they started out. distracted I love them to end up being. focused I just want movement right so My. worry is when you start with a bang is. you compromise the movement so. if for example I'm I want them to be. amused their journeyed to be a journey. towards Amusement if the first thing I. do is tell them an incredibly funny joke. the Journey's over. right it's about time so.

the central problem of these speeches is. that they've committed. like I say 45 minutes to an hour that's. a long time and everything has to be. about that you have to think about that. time frame you're telling a story Within. a 60-minute window right and they're. going to judge you by how they feel in. the 60th minute not how they feel in the. a minute one. um movies you know the movie that fails.

you sit in a two-hour movie and you're. enthralled for the first 90 minutes and. then it falls apart in the end you leave. unhappy you have never I you have never. given a movie recommendation where you. said the following you should totally go. and see that movie the first hour is. amazing now I will warn you the second. hour is terrible yeah you never do that. right yeah you would actually but you. would say oh you should totally see it. it'll be it'll start a little slow and. you'll wonder why you're there but wow.

the last hour that you would say I've. described to you this you know from a. logical perspective the same experience. 50 good 50 bad but all I've done is if. by by putting the bad first and the good. second I've made it something you. recommend and by reversing it I've made. it something that you would never tell a. friend to do right I actually talk a lot. about to my team about how um people. remember this the peak and the end of an.

experience and all the like psychology. tests they do and big tech companies use. this as a way to. um create a more memorable recollection. of any of the sort of customer. experiences and also of the studies. they've done on whether if someone. misses the flight at the start of their. holiday versus if they miss at the end. of the holiday the recollection of the. holidays drastically different exactly. they missed it at the end this [ __ ]. awful holiday there yeah so that makes. sense but my I think my thing is I. wouldn't even have their attention at. the peak of the experience or the story. if I haven't held them at the start with.

some kind of promise and we actually see. this with like Mr Beast who's the. biggest YouTuber in the world. much of the reason he says he's. successful and now you 100 million. subscribers fastest growing YouTuber. over the last five years is because he. will at the start of the video and this. is a little bit to do with algorithms he. will tell you the promise he's making. you that you're going to get at the end. so he'll do something in the end like. uh he'll basically create the plot in. the first 10 seconds and go in this. video I buy a million iPhones and then I.

text them all at the same time. and you're now waiting till the end to. see the plot realized I guess well he's. he's promising to tell you a story yeah. right so with most stories if you go and. see a. um if you if you pick up a mystery book. mystery story. um it's the same thing by virtue of. being described as a mystery it's making. a promise the promise is I'm going to. you know create some.

I'm going to lead you to a dark place. where you don't know where the solution. is and I'm going to give you the. solution so like that yeah he's he's. when you when you when you make the. contract with your audience. and the contract says I'm telling you a. story. you can hold them without you don't have. to why you're not wowing them but you. are you are binding them to you if you. can if you're promising a story then you. deliver on that now he's probably. promised. successfully come through so many times. now that people believe him when he says.

I'm going to tell you a story they. believed and they're quite willing to. sit and wait for the for the the you. know the the the the story to be. completed. he actually just say that he says the. second thing is you actually have to. deliver the the punchline of that story. I am so excited to announce our new. sponsor for this podcast and that is. Blue Jeans by Verizon for any of you. that aren't already familiar with blue. jeans they are a video conferencing and. collaboration tool who offer an. immersive communication experience that. drives pretty unparalleled employee and.

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with water it's been a game changer for. me because I'm trying to drop my calorie. intake and I'm trying to be a little bit. more healthy with my diet so this is. where he all fits in my life thank you. heal for making a product that I. actually like The Salted Caramel is my. favorite I've got the banana one here. which is the one my girlfriend likes but. for me salted caramel is the one. are you um are you an emotional person. do you consider yourself to be an. emotional person yeah. does that does that impact your your. writing and your storytelling and your. your.

um. authorship. if that's even a word in my podcast very. much so less so in my books. um because audio is so much more. emotional. um so a lot of my religious history. episodes. um many of them are quite emotional. um. and uh they're the ones that I value the. most the ones particularly the ones that. kind of. um this in this season for example. there's two episodes. which one will almost certainly make the.

majority of those who listen cry. um. and that's something you can do in audio. and that I think is great accomplishment. real tears not. kind of. um. uh not you know there are some people. who kind of cheat their way to tears. manipulate the way the audience but. well-earned tears. um on that I love that kind of. Storytelling where you can move someone.

so deeply that they will respond. emotionally to what you're saying. I saw a quote actually from you that. said um I cry but I don't get mad I. cried but I don't get angry that was it. yeah I don't really get angry much. [Music]. I I don't come from my I don't come from. a family that does anger I don't sort of. see the point it never gets you what you. want it doesn't make sense rationally. it feels terrible emotionally. it just makes everything everyone is.

worse off and unhappier after the angry. episode than before so it's like if you. remind me why this is some I mean I if I. have. I try to kind of squelch it whenever I. have an Impulse to do and then I just. find it goes away the impulse when was. the last time you cried. oh I don't know two days ago really. yeah. I tend to cry most often when I'm by.

myself I think about something that. causes me to. get emotional. is it typically in your writing or is it. is it you think no I'd be walking down. the street and I would um I will I will. be pursuing a line of thought that will. bring tears to my eyes really. is that what happened two days ago. oh you're walking down the street and oh.

are you able to share what that line of. thought was I was thinking about my. father. right uh. I was with my daughter. taking her she's 10 months she's in the. little baby carrier. and I uh. uh my father never met you know died. before she was born and uh. I would dearly have love for him to meet. her. and they have a lot in common I think. although it's hard to tell at 10 months. but um.

it seems to my mind they have a lot in. common and I was just reflecting on how. lovely would have been. for them to meet. you're a person of Faith right. so you believe you're Christian. Christianity or yeah that's the. tradition of Griffin yeah yeah same I. grew up in Christianity my we were. always in charge growing up until I was. about 18 years old how has that impacted. the way that you see the world and your.

your work and your writing and even that. particular moment because. um being of the Christian faith I. imagine that oh I'm guessing here so. excuse me if the guess is wrong but I. imagine that your belief is that he is. here. and he has meta. uh. yeah. yes I do think that uh. sorry now I'm getting emotional um.

yeah I do believe that. why is that um why does that make you so. emotional. um. [Music]. it's varied I don't know sorry. it's very difficult for me to talk with. my father without.

uh. his loss was that. just the saddest thing that ever. happened to me. that's right I I would be fine I'm. you know it's it's in many respects a. very beautiful thing what you're saying. in in the sense of his um. the love you clearly have for the man.

I I um I always feel particularly moved. when people talk about their fathers and. I've talked about someone's podcast a. lot because I I'm living with this kind. of ongoing regret ongoing. forecast of regret that I'm gonna regret. my father is not at a young age and and. we're not so close and we don't have a. close relationship and I can't seem to. figure out why I don't. do something about it so one of these. stories like that I think it's this. could really Stark reminder to me that.

like. parents don't live forever and I'm. living with that illusion that my. parents are going to live forever and. I'm also forecasting the regret based on. speaking to people like you if that. makes sense I'm like it's when people. say what do you regret I think I say I. think I'm going to regret. not um. not having a close relationship with my. parents when they're gone. yeah. well one of the ways. you realize that you're.

uh. grief is one of the ways you keep them. alive. [Music]. you know the the thing I feared the most. when my father died was that. uh. was it I would forget him. and. my grief reminds me that I am not and so. it's very it's very valuable. it's um.

if I was if I was not. uh. moved by the by thinking about him that. would be a a great tragedy in my mind. but is there a cost to that grief. I think so I mean. I think it's a kind of uh. I said it keeps him alive. um. and. it reminds me.

somebody a friend of mine once wrote. uh uh in a book about his own father. that my father he wrote the following. line. my father died 25 years ago. I know him better now than I ever did. back then. um. which I think is one of the most. beautiful lines. true lines. that I've ever. read and I I as time passes.

I see that more and more true. of my own father that I I feel I know. him better now than I did when he was. alive. um. and it's hard to explain why that's true. but I uh. but um. and I feel like. if I were to ask my father. about how sad he was about dying.

the knowledge that. I know him better now than he did and I. did when he was alive. would make his he would find out that. fact would make his passing easier in. his own mind if that makes sense it's. getting awfully convoluted but I feel. like it's one of the things that makes. death of a loved one less tragic. is that you have an opportunity to get. them to know them better. um. I realize that's hard to it's a very.

hard concept to explain it's very. difficult for me to explain when I read. that it just seemed it seemed so. enormously resonant and true. [Music]. um. that something about. the opportunity to kind of reflect on. them. over an extended period of time. and to see them reflected in you know I. mentioned my daughter. to see my father's reflection in her. clarifies my father in my in my mind. you know that specific traits that are.

um that are popping up in her. everything from the the size and my. father had an enormous head my daughter. has a truly enormous head and I look at. her head and I think. that's him that's you know like. but uh. we have wandered off.

into. all manner of. complex territory yeah it tends to. happen on this in this conversations but. it's really interesting that that. expression because I was thinking about. how I recently had um someone I knew I. knew passed away and the process that. happens in in the wake of their passing. is you first as you would perfectly. saying they were very well in person in. this country they Trend number one and. you you see this outpouring of the. impact they had on others and you go oh. my God it wasn't just me that felt that.

way about this person but then their. parents came here and sat on the sofa. and we just compared notes about this. individual and you can start to see as. you kind of describe it there the. patterns and oh yeah no and and it's. almost like the investigation starts. once they're gone and yeah yeah. and so that's why that was that quote. particular quote was so resonant. Timmy um. on the topic of relationships one of the. things that I am in your book blink in. the first chapter you talk about John. just John gottman oh yeah I read about.

John gottman completely separately I. read about his when I was trying to read. about relationships and what ruins. relationships I read about this idea of. contempt. ing them yeah I actually when I talked. about my show that went up and down this. country in the show I talk about. professor John gottman I talk about. contempt and how that's this Insidious. little hard to see force in. relationships but you actually got to. meet him what did that teach you about. relationships and. um. and the ones that are going to last in. those that are gonna yeah.

kind of obvious but crucially important. point which is a reminder of how. we're social animals and. casting someone out is the Great. um. is the great sin the great injury not. being angry with someone or or anger is. wrong word but. government is clear that anger is not a. predictor of.

the expression of anger is not a. predictor of the failure of a. relationship the expression of contempt. is. um. and he makes that crucial distinction. that if I confront you over something. that I'm unhappy about. I am the implicit understanding is I'm. doing this because your our relationship. is of such importance to me that an. injury needs to be addressed right. contempt is where you have given up on. the relationship like ah what's the. point right it doesn't matter.

and that idea that it doesn't matter. whatever is worse than I can't believe. you did that. super interesting and it made me kind of. think a lot about. um. would it you know if you're thinking. about building. organization structures relationships. family anything that's that that. is keeps people engaged and happy over. the long term. understanding that distinction is.

crucial it is not conflict that drives. people away it is neglect. right and not every encounter has to be. positive to be useful. and you know when I when I thinking. about. the team I work with on my podcast. revisions history for example. we know many of them are much younger. than me and uh there are things I can. teach them and I have a choice do I. bring this up. look guys we screwed up on this this.

isn't good or I let it slide my. personality is such that I often would. let things slide otherwise no no that's. wrong and that's I am I am impairing our. relationship by letting I think I'm in. the moment helping things just by. letting my irritation not get the better. of me. no I'm impairing a relationship. when I say to them this isn't good work. and here's how it can be better I am. affirming to them that they are part of. my team.

and when I just shrug and say. whatever. then they become Superfluous right I. have truly injured them in that moment. this idea that that's a lot of what. effective management is is. um is implicitly ensuring subordinates. that they belong. that you're you're part of the team even. if that's manifested as in. in terms of. approbation or conflict or what have you.

um. uh and that neglect is the. is that neglect is the enemy and in this. shoe in families as well right neglect. is the enemy the thing that you can't we. were talking earlier about about benign. neglect benign's the key word right. considered neglect is fine but when you. turn your back on a child. that's when that's when you do harm. um. and you know none of us were talking. about our parents turning their backs on.

us they were watching from far and not. doing anything totally different yeah. totally different it's actually. completely changed my perspective on my. own childhood because you're right I. always thought of them like it being a. form of like bad parenting but it but in. fact I they loved me very much and they. were there at a house and I was safe and. I had a foundation to to flourish in. without that if I wasn't out on the. street you know. yeah. lovelessly which I actually think would. have been even worse than being hungry.

just being Loveless uh completely. Loveless and love again even in my child. we weren't maybe an affectionate family. I still don't call my parents by mum and. dad I still call them by their first. names not really but I knew yeah it's. weird it's very strange it just I think. it started as a joke my mum saying she. felt old if we called her mum and she. wanted to be our friends and it was just. a joke that I was born into and never. knew otherwise so I call them by their. first names but I was still well that. they loved me because it was this it was. it was actions it was like trying to you.

know being there whenever I was at. danger those kind of things like. um as opposed to smothering. that's really interesting though that. idea and it kind of does it's a bit of a. narrative violation that by giving. feedback and by being honest and. constructive in your feedback you're. actually. showing people that you in even in a. professional sense that you that you. care and that you are together on this. yeah you're not you're yeah that they. are necessary to the process. right it's that feeling of of of of that.

they've if they feel they are necessary. then you have you know we've noticed. this I've started this little company on. this Audio company with my friend Jacob. Weisberg called Pushkin produces all of. our podcasts and others um and you know. we've noticed that the people like every. small company we have people who come. and go. and the people who. go are the ones who this is an obvious. observation but it's an interesting one.

the people who have tended to leave are. the ones who are the most socially. disconnected from. their organization so who came into the. office the least or who were not were. based in another city and we hired them. largely to do remote work or they have. they don't feel it's very hard to feel. necessary when you're physically. disconnected and. um you know as as we Face the battle. that all organizations are facing now. and getting people back into the office. that this people it's really hard to.

explain this core psychological truth. which is. we want you to have a feeling of. belonging and to feel necessary we and. we wanted you to join our team and if. you're not here. it's really hard to do that it's not in. your best interest to work at home I. know it's a hassle to come to the office. but like you know if you work if you're. just sitting in your pajamas in your. bedroom is that the work life you want. to live right don't you want to feel.

part of something. I mean it just I I I I'm really getting. very frustrated with the inability of. people in positions of leadership to. explain this effectively to their. employees that. um if we don't feel like we're part of. something important what's the point. it's not you're not just doing this to. get a if it's just a paycheck then. it's like then you what if you reduced.

your life to right it has to be. I don't know I I this really is getting. me kind of I was in I was in Los Angeles. a few weeks ago and um. I was. pitching some idea to a studio I went to. two Studios. I won't name them both have these. beautiful gorgeous fancy offices other. sorts you only see in LA right fantastic. you know sun is shining you go into the. parking lot and there are no cars there. and you go into these places where they.

normally would have 500 people and there. are four now they say it's because of. covet it's not covered it's just they. they just did everyone's just decided. they want to work at home like this is a. business that is in they are in the. business of forging an emotional. connection through storytelling to an. audience and they cannot even form an. emotional connection to their own. employees right what is going on here. this is nuts you're totally preaching to. the choir by the way because I've had.

this I've had this conversation with. with all of my companies in all of my. teams and even the people in this room. now know I've spoken to them about it. I've wrote a letter and I said listen we. believe in um interperson in all. connection the value of it this is why. we've never done this podcast on Zoom. even in the pandemic yeah because I. because part of the reason I do it is. because of this and what I'm not doing. it to publish an episode I'm doing it. because I like to meet someone and. connect with them if you take that away. from it I don't want to do the podcast. and it's the same with my work like we. ran a company who was that when we had.

700 employees we were no tourists for. company culture for having this where. the office was like a community center. you know everything happened there and. our employee base again as the BBC wrote. were on average about 21 22 years old. the minute the pandemic comes around for. the first time ever we see people. quitting on mass because Suddenly It's. them doing a to-do list in the boxer. shorts at home and the only upside we're. bringing them in their life the only. sort of remuneration we're giving them. other than you know the work is.

interesting whatever is pay it literally. then becomes the pay we're giving versus. the company down the road that are. paying you to set in your box of shorts. and do your to-do list so it became pay. versus pay and to be honest there were. other people that were willing to pay. more so we we saw tons of people leave. and I realized that Central to the value. that we bring to these people's lives is. community and togetherness and. connection so I fully fully believe in. it and I also think that and this is a. controversial thing to say people don't. typically know what's right for them and.

and I'm not saying it's just the context. of work I'm saying like look at other. areas of our life where we've sacrificed. Community for productivity or efficiency. where maybe we now sit at home and tap a. glass screen to get our food and then. swipe on a glass screen to get a date. and then click double tap uh photos like. that's probably what you would have. chosen through convenience but then the. cost on happiness which you don't get to. see when you make that transaction. so I I think I said to all my companies. and even some of my foreign companies.

like the most important thing for me is. to give you Clarity on who we are then. you can decide where you work yeah and. the problem we've seen over the last. couple of years is spineless virtue. signaling scared CEO specifically that. are in San Francisco like the Facebooks. and the twitters who all had to follow. the same kind of leftist do whatever you. want without realizing that. company culture should be reverse. engineered from your company's mission. and if and when you think about your. company's Mission the thing that will. help you achieve your company's mission.

is connectiveness is employee retention. is the sense of community is all the. other things other than just pay these. are all so. um when you think about it from that. perspective thing in fact bringing. people together giving them freedom I. mean don't like they can still have as. much Freedom as they like to decide the. days and what you know they've got to. have freedom because that's also. connected to them fulfilling the mission. but. saying that we are a group of people. that get together because we believe in. that we believe in the value of it yeah. and every time I say this you know. there's a big cohort that yeah amazing. and then.

I mean I was at an office this morning. and it's exactly what you've described. they said there's usually 500 people in. there my team were there with me empty. empty completely empty I went to another. office a big ticketing company they. built they'd started building the. construction of this building in central. London during covert they spent what I. believe hundreds of Millions on this. office. completely empty and I go what's going. on again well we're trying to get people. back in we do pizzas on Tuesday. downstairs people still don't come in. why don't you give them Clarity why. don't you say this is who we are because.

they're scared you're scared they're. scared to be clear just do whatever you. want decide whatever you want. that's not how teams work name a team. that runs on that basis in sports. do whatever you want. yeah so I think I believe I have a. hypothesis that we're gonna return uh. not not to where we were before because. I think that was somewhat broken as well. but I think we're going to return to a. nice Middle Ground. well freedom and Clarity sadly if an. economic recession will you have that.

effect yeah um I mean if when people. start to get worried about their job. um I think that might be easier to get. them uh it's sad that it's going to take. a lot of pain. um but um yeah I suspect that will bring. that will change the culture somewhat. the kind of climate I think it will be. and it Jack is a good example here Jack. was freelance so in the company I. described with the great office culture. whatever Jack used to come in as a. freelancer so he wasn't part of it so he.

was one of the people sat at home in his. boxer shorts I'm guessing and he was he. would part of the reason why and this I. don't want to speak for Jack but from. what I understand do correct me if I'm. wrong jack is Jack wanted to move from. there to from being this freelancer to. being full-time in our team was because. he saw that he was missing something. Jack please correct me is that accurate. yes what were you miss what did you well. I'd come to your offices and I'll see. what it was like being part of a team. which I haven't seen before and yeah I. just realized that's what I've been. missing from my work the whole time. and so he was in the freelance sitting.

at home and then saw this group of young. people that were all friends and played. football and went out on Fridays and and. thought you know what that's actually. as important as just getting a check you. know so yeah that's my hypothesis I'm. actually going to start using our office. coach as a way to employ people which. kind of bucks the trend that it's gonna. sort of disincentivize people to work. here so yeah oh I mean if it it could. have it could have a really lovely thing. where if you preferentially. select people.

based on their desire to work in an. office that's a really wonderful way to. kind of build a nice office culture. right yeah just for the moment you can. just sort of. cream skim all the people who exactly. what a party that would be. those are the people I want to be with. anyways I mean so. yeah another thing that I found um very. curious was this idea that too much. information when making decisions. sometimes can sometimes distort reality.

and be unhelpful because. I mean in most of the Pursuits in most. of the businesses I run. the phrases like the more information. the better and even when we're trying to. figure things out we're using looking at. the analytics we're trying to get as. much data as we possibly can to make our. decisions now now in blink you kind of. contest that idea yeah that's sometimes. less information is much. well particularly you know and if these. are unsupported decisions so. um if you're going to be using decision.

making tools analytic you know Advanced. analytics and you are confident in. whatever algorithms you're using to kind. of then find but for the. for for sort of much more human decision. making you know we have all kinds of. problems a classic one would be. you know you you want to buy a car and. there are six things you're concerned. about and. you you fall into the default mode of of. weighing all six equally when in fact.

you know price is probably five times. more important than color of the car you. know but you have you to make the. mistake of thinking oh I don't want to. buy that one because it's the wrong. shade of green when it's you know Far. and Away that I and that parallels was. something that I I didn't really. understand until I started this company. with I've observed a kind of startup in. operation with this company Pushkin. which is. um. it's really really hard for decision. makers.

to focus on more than a handful of. things you the the idea that focused is. a limiting variable in a lot of crucial. decisions it's something that I didn't I. understood it abstractly but now I. understand you simply the reason as a. company you want to pick you know two. lines of business not five it's not that. two lines make more. rational business sense than five but. because you can't focus on. five she can't see him being you only.

have a limited amount of your limit of. space in your head right and like so. that idea that we have a limited amount. of space in our head Obama President. Obama used to every morning he would uh. he would have someone lay out his. clothes for him so he didn't have to. think about what clothes he was going to. wear I know on the theory that if you. spend if you devote space to what you're. going to wear that morning you have less. space for other stuff he's absolutely. right it's totally true so we clutter. this idea that cluttering our.

decision-making process. with extraneous information in the hopes. that makes us better off in the end is a. Fool's game don't clutter like I said if. we're talking about unsupported decision. making. um if you are you know. IBM sorting through some complex fine or. but I mean for every day kind of stuff. that yeah clear away. prioritize very be very clear about your. priorities.

focus on what is crucial that's the way. to be a more efficient. um decision maker in in in the kind of. in the in these immediate unsupported. domains. I really need to do that with my. wardrobe upstairs because I've just I've. got [ __ ] hundreds of I wear two of. the black t-shirts and there's a hundred. in that like in that cupboard but I. could just take the others out and I. could I could really I just thinking. about my life generally How I Live it's. kind of a cluttered clutter experience. which I think my rule is every time I.

buy an item of clothing I remove an item. of clothing from my closet so I have. homeostasis. slightly obscure um topic alcohol do you. drink yes because I I read about your. I've seen various sort of opinions you. have on alcohol and I assume that would. mean you you didn't. why were you laughing yeah these are. things I would but which I love to kind. of opine. it's half tongue and cheek wait what so.

yes what's your what's your question the. really interesting thing that I was I. was actually reading about just before. you came was about how alcohol is such a. situational thing and how in for many. people it's a depressant if they are sad. alone you can make them more anxious if. they're anxious and then at a football. stadium it can make them jubilant and. feel connected and happy. what's your opinion on alcohol do you. think it's a. a bad thing for society do you think it. should be banned. no I mean I mean like I said I do drink.

not to excess but um uh I think of it as. we're stuck with it in a good way I mean. uh we I do think we have we're. relatively Cavalier I mean this is a big. theme in my book talking to strangers. yeah a whole chapter on alcohol and how. a lot of what we talk about is that you. know when we talk about a section the. culture of the problem of sexual assault. particularly among young people it's. really an alcohol problem that's driving.

it right it's very very few cases of of. you know accepting violent rape if you. talk about. what we think of as sexual assault um. where one party thinks it's conceptual. and the other party does not that kind. of which are the problematic cases in. many of with young people. someone's always one or both parties are. always drunk in those situations it's. very rare for that not to be the case. and understanding that oh. if we want to tackle really really.

serious things like sexual assault we. have to get our hands around. drinking problems first and to. understand that something weird is. happening and drinking has happened in. drinking culture in the last generation. in the west. um which is that the. the fringes have gotten more Extreme. More young people abstain from alcohol. than ever before but at the other end of. the Continuum what it means to be a. heavy drinker today is very different.

from what it meant to be a heavy drinker. 50 years ago heavy there is more binge. consumption and. um over consumption of alcohol at The. Fringe today than it was in the past. among young people and that's really. problematic. um and trying to understand how to in. reintroduce a culture of. um not necessarily sobriety but of of um. uh of balance in of. um moderation in alcohol consumption is.

one of the kind of I think one of the. sensitive Central tasks facing society. today why is that the case why is there. more binge binge drinking on one end we. don't really have a good understanding. of why part of it is I think that. um Norms around uh female drink I talked. about in in talking to strangers Norms. around uh female. alcoholic consumption have changed very. dramatically so. 50 years ago if a man and a woman go out. on a date there is zero expectation in.

fact they would be. a it would be considered problematic if. the woman drank as much as the man. now there is in many situations. particularly in colleges universities. there is a an expectation that the woman. will match a man drink for drink and. that is. so incredibly problematic for a whole. series of physiological reasons not just. that women not just by the way that. women are tend to be have a lot way a.

lot less than men it's not just about. weight it is that women process alcohol. in a fundamentally different way than. men so two a man and a woman who weigh. exactly the same amount can have exactly. the same amount to drink and the woman. will be a lot more inebriated at the end. of that process that is a physiological. fact about men and women so if you have. as a norm that women should match Men. drink for drink you are asking for. trouble. right and our failure to talk frankly. about alcohol abuse among young people I.

just think is Criminal it's just like. it's just I feel the same thing about. um in some sense about about cannabis. where. I don't have a problem with people. smoking dope but the idea that we can. have THC levels uh in cannabis that are. north of 25 or 30 percent is insane are. you kidding me it was a one percent a. generation ago and people are smoking. the same amount and it's 25 times as as.

I mean it's just like nuts like why do. we suspend the laws of biology when it. comes to uh to mind altering substances. it's just it drives me nuts yes money is. the reason but anyway another time. another time um so we have a closing. tradition on this podcast where the last. guest leaves a question for the next. guest. um not knowing who they're leaving it. for yeah and so it means that all of our. guests are kind of speaking to each. other I guess this guest has asked the. question.

what is one thing you regret not saying. to somebody and why didn't you say it. oh wow. what is one thing I mean the the obvious. answer everyone's going to give is I. didn't say I love you to some loved one. so I'll skip the obvious answer and try. and do something less obvious. um I think it would be I'm this is not a. cop-out. there's a there is a. a genre of. politeness.

that I have neglected and that is people. doing everyday things at a lower. the person who being kind Kinder and. more appreciative of the person of the. janitor who sweeps the floor in the. office you work in or the. the woman who cleans your hotel room or. the you know I could make a long list of. the nurse who picks up after you know. you in the hospital or. that.

those kinds of people doing thankless. things. I have been I believe I would be I. regret that I have not over the course. of my life life been more obviously. thankful to them. why. why that why did that I mean I agree but. what's made you realize that. now uh. well my mom was in the hospital. she's out now a few weeks ago and uh.

I just realized wow like I don't know. it's just something about that. it's obvious but it's not obvious it's. just like. here are people. doing you know very Elemental things. caring for people who are. you know in that moment helpless not. getting paid an awful lot of money. working really really long. shifts just went through an experience. where they were risking their lives by. going to the hospital.

for a couple years I mean it's like what. we asked these but we put these people. through. and the idea that we would take them for. granted seems. that I have taken and for granted seems. to me. outrageous. so maybe that's why. welcome thank you so much for being so. generous with your time and thank you. for the conversation. um you're a very special person very. very important thinker for very many. reasons I love the way there's so many. observations I've had for instance.

speaking to one of them is that you. really listen which is strange because. often I sit here with podcast guests and. it's the whole like listening to speak. thing but for some reason when I speak. you listen and it sounds like a strange. thing to say but that is really really. surprising because you're very very. smart and maybe that's your dad maybe. that's the because that's what I saw and. it's like that's what you described of. your dad was that humility almost. um so that's incredibly surprising but. then the way that you think and how. considered nuance and your admittance. that you could probably be wrong which. you said many many times I think is also. incredibly refreshing but uh but it's.

also why your books are so great and. it's why your podcast is so great it's. why I would recommend everybody to go. and check out the bowl of Mafia because. there's a certain curiosity and wonder. and Beauty to the way that you write and. the reason why you're writing that is. very rare and I hope to one day emulate. in my own writing so thank you for all. of the inspiration and thank you for. doing this. um your podcast you're in season seven. now season seven of revisionist History. yeah and uh that's coming to a close. you've got is it two episodes. yeah season yeah and people can get that.

everywhere so Spotify Apple everywhere. yeah. amazing thank you so much Malcolm for. your time thank you generous thank you. [Music]. [Music]. thank you. [Music]. [Music].