Maisie Williams: The Painful Past Of A Game Of Thrones Star | E181

they were asking the right questions. we can stop as much as you want by the. way. Game of Thrones flips my whole world on. its head I sometimes worry that I'm like. alienated because it will happen when I. was so young and like literally from the. age of 12 I've been like set for life. I had a traumatic relationship with my.

dad and ever since I can remember like. I've really struggled sleeping it had. like met its like Peak and I was at. school I was taken by a teacher to the. staff room she was saying like what's. happened. I think a lot of the traumatic things. that were happening I didn't realize. that they were wrong I would look around. at other kids and be like where does the. joy when does that come for me. when you were 22 you talked about issues.

with substance abuse yeah I would just. had that sense of impending doom and I. didn't know how to make it go away. [Music]. I'm gonna come and give you a hug. [Music]. before this conversation starts I've got. a favor to ask from you 74 of people.

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what do I need to understand who you are. now what do I need to know about. that part of your life. um well I as like a young child before. the age of like eight. um had. quite a traumatic like relationship with. my dad and I don't really want to go. into it too much because it affects my.

siblings and my whole family. um but like that really consumed a lot. of my childhood. um. ever since I can remember like I've. really struggled sleeping and I think a. lot of the traumatic things that were. happening I didn't realize that they. were wrong but I knew that like I would. look around at other kids and be like. why. why like why don't they seem to. understand this like pain or dread or. fear like.

like you know what where does the joy. like when does that come for me like I. you know I kind of always felt like a. felt things very deeply. um in comparison to other people and so. when that sort of period of my life. ended. um I imagined that like you know. everything is just like up from here. like everything's perfect now. um all those things that I was concerned. about were actually wrong and like now.

I'm sort of free. um. yeah and then you know at different. stages in life you realize that. there's never like an end destination. for that freedom um and it's. yeah it kind of comes from within I. guess like when are you going to. let yourself be free from. from the pain but yeah that really. consumed a lot of my childhood that was. sort of like what I was identified as. you know what I identified myself as for.

a long time and then. you know everything changed and I sort. of became this like. you know character who. uh who wouldn't let anything bad happen. to her or anyone around her and. yeah I guess like maybe there is some. sort of like connection between those. two things. your mother left your father yeah before. I was born actually well no I guess. she.

escaped when I was about four months old. so. it was you know bad before that and then. uh yeah have you spoken about this. before no. I don't know I like you I'm sorry I feel. like this is an um. it's something that I've been like. learning a lot about recently and I feel. like I can speak about it now yeah. um does it has it taken you time to like. to can I ask the question about have you.

spoken about it before because. um. I think at like 25 years old there was. like really foundational things I. learned about myself that that I only. learn I mean you know sometimes you read. something or you hear something and you. go [ __ ] that explains this thing. so my question there was just like did. it take you time to connect those dots. yeah definitely. I think that people sort of talk about. like rewiring people on your podcast. actually speak about rewiring your brain. but that first in order to do that you.

have to recognize when your your brain. is doing a pattern that you want to. rewire and quite often like it's already. triggered so many things and like you're. in a bad mood and you have no idea why. and it's hard to kind of like Trace back. from that point so like that awareness. um. and like finding that kind of for me had. to come first like when it really. started to I don't know when I really. started to understand it. it was like capturing those minutes.

where I was like why does that make me. feel really uncertain or. angry or like make me wanna like. shout at someone like what what is that. and then you can start to go like. work your way back you know so you were. seeing like social triggers or. situations where you were you know I saw. you I saw you said when you spoke to. Lewis house you said I've always been. quite an anxious person yeah and I.

really reflect on that because I you. know I'm not an expert in anxiety I've. been anxious myself I've been an anxious. person at times myself but um. I I've always wondered for many years if. we're we're born that way or if if we're. predisposed or if something happens and. then we become anxious. have you. thinking about how you saw sort of. social triggers have you connected any. dots regarding being an anxious person. as you call it to those early years.

as you've grown up now. um. yeah. I guess I think like a lot of that. anxiety. as I started to sort of recognize it it. came from like not really being myself. and like then feeling anxious about the. way that you're being perceived or. whatever but knowing that you're not. really being honest and that will of. course make you very anxious because if.

you have no idea who you're projecting. then you really have no idea how other. people are going to hear it because you. don't even know how you mean it and you. know that sort of like facade of like. I don't know whoever you know whoever I. thought was like capable of like getting. through interviews or social like. settings or whatever. um. and I think that like struggle with. identity and like the big questions of. like who am I I think that everyone.

struggles with that. um but I think that like you know. there's a period of your childhood. um where. you know certain situations. can really stunt. um like. or just Ulta forever like who you are. going to become. um. and that's not to say that you can't. also just like become a very peaceful. and uh.

you know content and fulfilled person. um but like that sort of Basic Instinct. of like what do I what brings me joy you. know you've kind of second guessed that. a lot as a kid and you're not known. you know whether to trust what you. really think or feel or you know. whatever sort of like mental. manipulation. um and that can yeah really have like. lasting effects so. yeah kind of like discovering that and.

being like yes I struggle with you know. my identity and knowing who I am so that. brings me anxiety because I don't know. who to be in a social situation. um but then also sort of going back back. far enough that you're like oh. I don't know if that person really. exists anymore and that's okay because I. can find. you know something. um. yeah you know find like a good.

version of myself. um but yeah I don't know how do you what. do you think about that. um about which part well I guess. um like it feels like a lot of people. are trying to retreat to like being a. child and like the things that brought. you Joy and like who you are at your. core and who you are when no one's. looking and. um. uh but you know can can that that part. of you be so damaged from a very a young.

age that. that you could be searching for. something that. um. you know is just for you to make up. that's a really interesting question. when I've never even pondered before. um I was thinking about in fact Lewis. Howes and I think shortly after you had. a conversation with him. it would have been because I know the. timeline he I think he opened up for the. first time it's so funny because. when I rewatched your conversation with. Lewis.

you start sharing things that were. difficult in your early years you don't. share anything like this with him and. then he says to you he's quite stoic and. he goes yeah I went through things like. that as well you're aware of what he. yeah yeah I am now see he went through. um they're pretty you know horrific uh. child abuse at a young age from I. believe a babysitter if I'm correct that. was looking after him. I had sexually abused him and he talks. my reference is only him talking about. how he feels he has to go back and for.

like forgive. himself. the child that he was and heal himself. heal the child yeah yeah so he has I. don't know if you know but he has his. face. at that age on his wallpaper of his. phone and with his therapist he's worked. through healing that young version of. himself and then moving on to the next. to the teenage years and so do I do I do. I know if we can um if that child that. we're seeking. still exists in there I mean my very.

naive assumption would be that they do. yeah. um are they are they still going to be. childlike. I don't know. there's something. quite naive about it being childlike. which may be wisdom. makes irreversible but. when you when you talk about Joy you. talk about struggling to feel Joy at a. young age. what is that how do I how do I how do I. understand those words.

I think like. you know when you watch. kids play. um. and like there's struggles and there's. tiffs and there's like whatever but. there's like. just like complete inhibition right and. it's just like running or it's like. going on the slide or it's like. I felt like I would often stop in a.

situation like that I'd be doing. something and then I would just stop and. be like something awful is going to. happen. and just like. I couldn't. continue. um. tissue yeah maybe Jack could you grab a. tissue please. we can stop as much as you want by the. way we don't have to carry on. it's a great thing for podcasting yeah.

yeah maybe I'll hide them around the. other side I could put them just like. here cool is that that's off camera yeah. it's all good. um. yeah I would just. um. had that sense of impending doom and I. didn't know how to make it go away. um. and I had to like.

great memories I don't even know it's. hard to remember a lot of them a lot of. those times that I felt very free I was. actually on my own. um. but I would never have like thought I. was like an introverted person like I. always would have thought that I was. quite extroverted because. um I'd perform a lot of people you know. um. but yeah I yeah I struggled I yeah I. struggled with that when I was a kid.

um. and just thought like. how do I stop feeling like this and just. feel like. everything's okay you know but at that. age I'm guessing you didn't know why you. felt like that so knowing how to to go. about. yeah healing from it is is an impossible. task right it's good point about you. can't solve for something that you. you're not aware of yeah. going like nothing's wrong like nothing. is wrong everything's the way that it's. supposed to be. but it wasn't but I did I just would.

tell myself that like what is wrong with. you like. was there an age when you found found. out. because I kind of asked this question. earlier but was there any was there a. moment where you found out what was. wrong yeah. when I was about eight. um. I. was quite like a complex like string of. events that happened. but basically it had like met its like. Peak and I was at school.

and I guess I was well I mean obviously. I was really struggling. um. and I don't really know what happened. but I was taken by a teacher to the. staff room and. um. she was saying like what's wrong you. know like what's happened. have you are you hungry well and she. said I don't know. yeah you're hungry I said yeah she said. did you eat breakfast and I said no and. she said oh why not and I said we just. didn't have any breakfast and you know.

and then she says well you know do you. normally have breakfast and he's not. really and so you know the sort of they. were asking the right questions. okay. so you can get them. I'm gonna come and give you I feel. really confounded.

okay yeah. yeah. no I I do think it's important because. I had so many people who loved and cared. about me so much but I'd never been. asked the right questions where I could. really say. what was wrong. um.

and. um my mum came to school and picked me. up and. um my siblings were also at secondary. school at the time and they. um some of them was were with mum and. one was not and they were dead still and. yeah. um and it was the first time that like. it was all of the doors were sort of. open and all of these things that we.

were experiencing were like out on the. table and. it was really really hard because I. still wanted to fight and say no like. these things aren't bad like. you're trying to take me away from my. dad and that's wrong you know like. um because I was like indoctrinated in a. way like you know. um.

I think that's why I'm obsessed with. Cults because I'm like I get it I get it. I was in a child cult against my mother. um yeah so I really was sort of fighting. it for for at the beginning but but. basically like my whole. world like. flips on its head and even though all. these things that I'd was feeling I. thought oh my God I'm so glad I don't. have to see my dad anymore. uh it still was like against everything.

that I had ever. knew to be true you know. I don't know if I'm being too cryptic no. I don't think I am I don't think you are. you can be as cryptic as you wanna. yeah yeah I understand what you're. saying and that's the that's one that I. need to to get the context um and you. can just talk as come whatever you about. whatever you want to talk about in terms. of what makes you comfortable I don't. know I don't know where your line is. yeah. you need that.

um. when I watch cult documentaries there's. a lot of um manipulation that goes on in. these documentaries there's a lot of. fear that causes silence. um. and that's usually why. people find it that's often why people. find it difficult to leave those. situations and then when they do have. these like I always observe this like. conflicting array of emotions like they. have this love for this person but at. the same time. as you've you've described it once out.

of that situation there's somewhat are. probably you know a spirit spiritually. free and happy to be gone so that that. conflict of emotions always fascinated. me how two truths can almost exist in. the same place. you can feel. you know so. um liberated and free and at the same. time just like that impending doom is. kind of still there where. yeah. it's like all your problems don't just.

sort of like go away you know. um. yeah you still. like care a lot about that person or you. still sort of understand. you know the pain or whatever that led. to those very very poor decisions. as you sit here today 25 years old how. do you feel about. your father.

well to be honest with you. I've been thinking about this a lot. um. and. like I've been trying to do this thing. where I stopped taking things personally. and like not just like you know when. someone's had a bad day and they like. push in front of you in the queue but. like the big things in life like what if.

I said that it was not like it wasn't. because of me that that happened. like. it it if it if I wasn't there it would. have been something someone else like. it's not. um. yeah it wasn't like because. there's something wrong with me that. like these bad things happened when I. was a child. is that a thought you had.

yeah yeah yeah. I felt like there was something. inherently wrong with me or us because. like we did lots of things wrong all the. time which is like why you know. you you know you'd be mistreated or. whatever because you're like oh like we. really need to be better at this because. we keep doing things wrong and we keep. getting in trouble type thing.

um but then I was like well you know. like and especially well because it was. someone you know my a parent and I felt. like oh they're supposed to like like. you and so. you know but then I was like well what. if like there's just like no connection. between like me being. you know his daughter and like it could. have been like literally anyone like. experiencing. that pain and it would like still be the.

same and then I just kind of could. separate myself from it a little bit and. I could start to sort of reflect on him. as a person and be like what happens. that you get so stuck in your mind that. you can just like. you know permanently like mistreat. people. um. you know what. children. children. like your own children.

but but you know. taking that step back and seeing it like. more objectively. kind of like makes me quite interested. in in the guy I don't know him at all. um and I'm like. what happened to you when you were a kid. like. who are your parents. is this something that you were always. like when you were a kid did you like. pull the legs off bugs or like. you know did this did you learn this.

like you know these are all the. questions that I would ask yeah yeah and. so that's kind of like how I feel about. them now where I'm just like what if. like he would make a fascinating. documentary and it's like nice to to. like. you know not feel the the personal pain. of that anymore and actually just think. like. you know. I don't know if any of the answers to. that will like help me in my journey. um but it is sort of like a nicer way to.

think of him than. you know as like someone who doesn't. love me or like me or like whatever. you know he talked about that feeling. that you were to blame for. outcomes in your life that might well. especially as a relationship early as. that weren't you weren't to blame for. um were there symptoms of that as you. grew up this kind of the feeling that. you know. um when things happen it was because you. did something wrong or you were you were. to blame for things did you feel that as.

an adult in your teenage years at all. yeah definitely I think that like I. really. um. wanted to control a lot of things that. you just can't control because. like. if I don't then if I'm not worrying or. thinking about this or like wanting to. control this then like it's all going to. fall down and like then I'll blame. myself and it'll be like a you know. something that I could have done better. or should have done differently. um.

yeah I feel like. I guess it was more just like trying to. control like the uncontrollable and that. then leading to like another way that I. could like. beat myself down you know. it's interesting because I've seen so. many other interviews you've done and. without knowing that early context a lot. of those a lot of the things I was. hearing didn't make sense yeah yeah not. that you know it makes sense is maybe an.

interesting use of words but. um it always felt like there was a part. of your story that was. Untold. yeah. it you know I think when I was like 12. and I'd done a bit of Game of Thrones. and was doing interviews and like the. first interviews that I'd ever done. I remember people sort of being like but. you're so young like how do you. protect like how do you show this pain.

like you've just seen like the death of. your father or like how do you know that. like how no how do you. act that sort of like Fury and I just. like in my head was like that's a really. stupid question because I've known how. that feels but like you know I it's like. I don't know something nice to just like. leave in the past I guess but. it's it's hugely influenced like.

everything that I do as an actor like I. get to access all of that confusion and. pain. in my job and I get to like really feel. it in like every. fiber of my being but there's no like. consequence and there's no like you're. not really shouting at anyone or hurting. someone or it's like it's all pretend. but like the emotion is is real and like. just being able to like let that out is.

something that I didn't do for a long. time and so it's like it just all sort. of came to the surface and. I guess like holding you know. the early part of my story like to. myself is also just because I haven't. really understood it the way that I have. now and and I'm sure I'll understand it. you know far better in the future but. I feel. um I feel like now there's like some.

sort of closure to it where the journey. might help other people whereas before. it was just like pain pain pain pain. and no like conclusion right right no. like okay we're through the other side. yeah it was just like other problems. that come from like the same problem. problems yeah. um. but yeah I mean it's like you know.

going into that audition to play Arya. Stark I was sort of surrounded by girls. that like were joyous and like were. free and like. like they were kids there were kids who. were happy and. um you know. had you know had whatever they had. um. and I thought wow I really. um you know here we go again like gonna. be a disappointment but you know for.

that. moment actually that was that was what. they needed and so that was sort of like. a. moment in my life where I was like huh. maybe this thing isn't all bad maybe. there can be something like beautiful. that comes from. you know this this part of myself that I. find like. um. unnatural like or like just different to. to other kids.

here we go again I'm going to be a. disappointment. oh yeah. yeah. what do you mean by that. so when you when you got the role you. presumed that you were going to let. people down yeah yeah no. I just like going into the room I meant. like okay oh no I'm not gonna be what. they're looking for but I I did end up. being what they were looking for but. like you know I just um. yeah yeah yeah of course.

um. yeah. I don't know like did you did you like. always feel ever feel like disappointing. yeah. yeah of course yeah there's been moments. in my life where I've definitely feel. like I've let myself down and other. people down and it's not a good feeling. to to sit with but I think I've tried to. channel it into. um.

into making myself I actually went for. an audition at 14 years old to do the. junior Apprentice you know The. Apprentice the TV show so they launched. the junior apprentice and I went for the. first audition got through to the final. 20 and then I got long story but I got. this email from the BBC saying that. someone had leaked the press that I was. going on the show so they said this is. jeopardized your chances of going on the. show and I don't come from a family. where we had much so going back to. Plymouth and telling everyone you know. like all my friends oh he's going to. London and going back and saying like. they've just called me and told me I'm.

not on the show was was devastating for. a long time lots of tears I felt like a. disappointment of that phase in my life. um and several times subsequently but. um I I think I've always been somewhat. optimistic going into situations. I generally feel like I've got nothing. to lose. um. [Music]. and I think maybe that's a bit of a. privilege to be honest I think mindset. privilege is a real thing just like. perspective privilege something we don't. talk about enough and.

um had I been in an early situation. where someone was continually. telling me the things that I was were. doing were wrong or not good enough or. whatever I can quite easily see how I. would anticipate that feedback going. into anything where. um feedback was going to be given. and it's actually pretty remarkable I. mean. you know because those early experiences. you would assume would smash someone's. like self-esteem pretty severely and and. make them kind of retreat into safe.

places one of the safest places is where. we don't get feedback and someone. doesn't shout at us or you know but that. that first this is your first audition. right Game of Thrones yeah or one of I I. had an audition before that which I also. was very excited about and then didn't. get so that was like my first like okay. you know professional rejection but. you're still putting yourself out there. in situations where you could be. rejected yeah definitely and I think it. was because I the only time that I. really felt that joy that I saw in other.

people was when I was like dancing or. performing and there was this feeling. that I would get that I was like this is. like. I feel like human you know. um and so I was like I've just got to do. anything I can to like do this forever. and so from a very young age I was like. I want to go to Stage school and I want. to. yeah I'm happy to leave everything and. go and do that and.

um yeah so I I really every opportunity. was like. um yeah I guess that little part that. you said like I've got nothing to lose. it was like yeah. on the other side of this could be. absolutely everything so I I have to do. it. I read this book I say red I watched the. summary on YouTube. but I'll just say it sounds more. impressive I read this book called The. Body holds the score then if you ever. heard of it and one of the most. fascinating things about it is it talks. about how acting and moving the body in.

like yoga have been proven to be the. best forms of um uh antidepressant like. without you know taking ssris or. anything they've been proven to and I. remember thinking acting is a great. antidepressant how is that possible but. what you're saying now Rings it talks. about how it kind of disassociates from. Identity when we Act. um and so what you're saying now seems. to. validate what I read I'd love to read. that because that's like exactly what I.

instinctively like discovered. uh like it just happened and I thought. ah like this is what I'm supposed to do. um have you ever figured out why why. acting was a because I I say the word. escapism but it why it was so liberating. for you is it because is it escapism is. it because it disassociates you from. your own identity is it because you can. create this new. there's like two parts of it it was like.

how I felt. like within my body like everything. floated away and like the way that it. felt to move my body or the way that it. felt to like contort my voice or like. whatever it just like like that feeling. when you're like can't stop laughing it. was just like. incredible and then there was the way. that it made other people feel and. I guess like with with acting with. dancing it was like it was very it was.

very much about the way that it felt and. not necessarily the way that it looked. or like how other people would. experience it but with acting it's like. you get that sort of two-way thing and I. also saw the joy that it would bring. other people and like. I guess like you don't you're like not. disappointing you're like making someone. laugh or you're making someone happy or. you're like and that was like you know. fun and new. yeah I was gonna say Game of Thrones was. a Smash Hit but it feels like a slight.

understatement. I feel like smash it is let's yeah it. it huge the fame piece. I've had a smidge of Fame like seven. people know who I am right and sometimes. it can be a little bit difficult so I. can't even you know I can't even imagine. especially with the the sort of. confounding factors of your age. trying to figure out who you are.

becoming famous for being a character on. a huge show yeah um. being in your sort of adolescent years. all of these things all at the same time. when you look back and you know you and. you remember you're saying about how. people were like forecasting your. downfall because of all those factors. yeah yeah. that actually the strangest thing about. it. the hardest thing I think was.

like needing to articulate. who I was and what I loved the things. that I didn't like and what I had an. opinion on and what like you know. um yeah that I remember at the time. being like oh gosh I really don't know. anything about anything I really need to. know these things I need to you know. and then like you know years later you. go like oh I said that my favorite film.

was this and like that's not true and. it's like you don't need to know any of. that stuff no like it's all. um it's all just like a journey right. it's all like there's never like an end. um what advice would you give that. person 13 year old. amazing to be honest with you like I. wish that I'd have just um like trolled. it all a bit more. and like whatever I like. instead of really digging deep and going.

oh what is the real just like whatever. you feel that day that's okay and it can. change the next day because that is just. like life. you don't have to be beholden to. anything that you've said or done you. can let it all go and like rip up the. rule book because I hated London moved. back to Manchester and went to New York. and you go actually I'm gonna go back to. London like this is what I'm gonna do. now and it's not going to be like. something that you're like oh I wish I. hadn't done this like you're like no. this is this is what I want now and. that's like. that's just sort of the way it is so I.

kind of wish that I'd just like you know. not just like tortured myself to know. like what is the real answer to these. like silly fun questions. um and then been like oh no I've like. portrayed myself all wrong this is not. who I am because it's just it's like. it's like water. would you would you change the timing of. the events that happened in your life if. you if you could. like acting when I was super young.

um. the only thing I really feel like we. didn't have a lot growing up but like. I've I've never. you grew up on a continent in a council. house. and. like you know have always had like a. awareness of how hard my mum worked like. raising us giving us everything that you. know she did putting food on the table. um you know but that kind of I I never.

I remember like when I was sort of like. 18 and a lot of my friends started going. to UNI getting jobs whatever I remember. like there was like I was like I never. even though I know what that struggle. was like growing up like I've never like. struggled to get a job or. um struggle to make rent or anything. like that and I think. not that I would change that of course. like I'm so fortunate but I guess like I. I never want to I never.

want to lose sight of like the. perspective of like just how fortunate. that I've been and like just how tone. deaf it is for me to believe that I like. would understand what it's like to. you know to struggle to make rent and. want to be a creative person and not. know whether to get like a sensible job. or to like because I don't know what. that struggle is like at all. um. so yeah I don't know that like I I. sometimes.

worry that I'm like alienated in in some. ways because it will happen when I was. so young and like literally from the age. of 12 I've been like sat for life and. that's like very different to how I was. like before that age. is there a mixture of emotions. surrounding that like being set for life. at 12. um as you grow now I've sat here with a. couple of guests who come from like a. council a council estate or grew up in. in very difficult situations and they. often express this kind of I remember. Jack commit doing it expressed this kind. of almost. guilt's a bit of an interesting word but.

like why did I I remember Jack saying to. me I can make thousands and thousands of. pounds from just making YouTube videos. and I watched my dad not make the same. amount of money in like a year or. whatever and I could just make it from. one YouTube video and he would go back. and feel he'd meet someone I remember. him saying he met someone in a pub that. was like a cancer doctor. and he's making more than them just sat. at home he anyone who expresses his kind. of like. I don't know guilt or Injustice have you. ever felt that. um definitely like. um.

just yeah real like the guilt around. like. allowing yourself to have nice things or. do nice things because you're like able. to. like I felt like when I was a kid. everything stopped happening and all my. problems were going to go away and then. like all my problems didn't go away and. then I was sat for life when I was 12. and I thought all my problems gonna go. away and I was like well this doesn't. it's not like that unless all of my. friends and family are that way too.

because like how are we all supposed to. like be okay if the only one person is. okay. and. you know you give people what you can. but you don't see the the pain take that. take the pain away for another person. doesn't take the pain away for yourself. like. and then you realize that like actually. life is something else entirely and like. the biggest problem that a lot of people.

face is. making money. and like I'm making enough money to live. and like. support their family. but being able to do those things. isn't in it like the only thing that. like makes you happy like when you take. that problem away. there's sometimes still a very hard. discussion that you have to have with. yourself where it's. like a yeah like a fundamental chat.

where you have to. tell yourself that. well I don't know there's a lot of. things. I don't want to take away from the fact. that like having money enables you to. like even be able to comprehend or like. another set of problems yeah yeah like I. know that that in itself is like an. incredibly privileged position to be in. um. uh. but like money won't take the pain away.

it will take like the stacking bills or. you know. um or the fear of like losing a house. you know. um it doesn't undo trauma you can't you. can't buy you know. yeah yeah yeah yeah even if you can keep. the heat on and the electricity and feed. yourself there's still there's stuff for. many people another level of trauma. which um money can't seem to solve for. directly. um the. the post game of thr you know I I.

remember sitting here with some one of. the guys from One Direction Liam Payne. and um he talked about how. post One Direction you he has this. identity which is he's a part of a boy. band and then leaving that it can be. quite Troublesome psychologically who. and I think he talked about the same. thing which is like who am I where do I. belong how do I then go and ident like. find out who that person is and start. creating for that and not just being. this this character this you know member. of a boy band that I've that the world.

knows before did you ever feel that post. um Game of Thrones. yeah in a way but but I felt like I had. got to a point already within being in. the show that I was like oh I feel like. I'm. like cosplaying as this like person I've. created and I don't think that this. really is who I am. so sort of leaving the show me that I. could leave that as well. um. you know I kind of like wanted to like. say the right thing and do the right.

thing and like act like I had everything. figured out and like be a good role. model and you know. and which is all very good things to. want but it's like it was it wasn't like. very authentic it was like just like. trying to be liked I guess right and. then you're like oh I actually you know. I don't want to do things that make. people like happy because like I wanted. things to make me happy and like I want. to you know represent myself the way. that makes me feel most comfortable.

um and not like just the way that's most. like palatable or like whatever. and so I I already got to the point. where I was like oh this isn't really me. and I'm like desperate for something to. just like drastically change so as I can. like cut from that and and that's sort. of what happened when the show ended. then also sort of sped up by the. pandemic and being like ins like. solitary. um. so I was kind of like very ready for. that and it wasn't like oh who am I I. was kind of like oh who could I be you.

know 21 21 22 years old. how are those years for you so this is. like around the time the show is. concluding yeah included when you're 22. yes when it came out yeah. um I just didn't really go out a lot and. I. I just felt quite. I just I don't know it was just like it. was like the most successful it was ever. going to be and it was like most people. would like recognize you on the street.

and. and like I had just got so like. rehearsed at like oh thank you that's so. nice and I just like everything I said. and felt and did it was just like oh. none of this is it's like. um. I just I felt like very going through. the motions of Life uh it was like yeah. acting again yeah yeah yeah yeah. um. it wasn't. the like the the hardest like most awful.

and traumatic like oh it was like. terrible it wasn't it was fine but I. just like I knew that something better. was coming at that age they're 20 years. old how do you feel about yourself. oh I didn't really have a very like good. opinion of like myself and my self-image. it's I forget that I really didn't like. myself that much. um. I don't know I just I just told myself. that I.

was like. awful and disgusting and. like unattractive and unkind and. like just like not a a good person and. like unlikable I just told myself that. like every single day and so in ways I. sort of became like that because. um you just like beat yourself into like. a mess you know mind is quite powerful.

in that way yeah really powerful mm-hmm. Fern talks to me about this a lot I know. you did have podcasts right yeah yeah I. listened to her chatting about this on. your podcast yeah yeah. do you know the origin of those of those. of that self story like where where it. originates from obviously you have a a. thread that most people don't have which. is the world is giving feedback on you. every day now because you're in the. press and you're a young woman and we. know what that can be a pretty vicious. thing but it do you know the origin of.

those self stories I feel like I've I've. felt self-conscious like even before all. of that so it definitely before like. Fame and so it definitely was enhanced. by that but I think it came a lot. earlier. um. and. I'm actually still trying to figure this. out like at the moment with my therapist. we're trying to really Trace that back. and a lot of this like has come a lot of. the discovery has come through. meditation I've been doing a lot of.

Transcendental Meditation and like. there's something about going into that. state that like brings up like a little. ticket and I go ah like that's but but I. haven't quite figured out the answer to. this one yet I'll wear it like initially. stems from but I've definitely felt like. embarrassed of myself or ashamed or like. you know thought oh like I'd be playing. at a kid's house and thinking like their. parent thinks that I'm like awful I'm. like the child that all parents don't.

want their kids to hang out with like. I've just felt this way about myself and. I was like. you know I wasn't trying to get them to. do like naughty things or anything I. just was like a kid that was just like. but I thought you know I'm I'm like. like I'd go to someone's house and I'd. like my shoes and like maybe they're not. in the right place and I haven't put my. bag in there and this parent is gonna. like not like me or like whatever I I. like felt that like. like self-awareness to that degree where.

I've like critiqued and like. beat myself up like since I was very. very small. yeah I don't really know I don't know. where it comes from yet Elena well the. question I I naturally ask is when when. was the first time someone. told you those I mean even the example. of like oh God if I put my shoes in the. wrong place well you know what happens. if they're in in the wrong place and. what's the consequence of my shoes being. in the wrong place because Me growing up. with my shoes were in the wrong place.

there's not really a consequence for. that no you know yeah. I don't know. well I have some theories on it. um. but I don't know it can it doesn't. concern just me so I don't know yeah. yeah just like I I think that I've like.

um I've witnessed. uh like people just feeling like just. them existing in one spot is like them. just taking up too much room in this. world and I think that I've like just. taken on a piece of that. um where like just living and breathing. like you're too much and like you're. irritating so.

but it's not true and if anyone ever. feels like that it's not true. because we can know these things are. objectively not true but it just this is. the thing that really fascinates me is. like how can we have how can we in one. on on one hand know that something is. not true yes and seemingly we're not. able to. completely eradicate that story because. that you know I I used to think. definitely used to believe before doing.

this podcast that these stories we. believe there's evidence we have whether. it's wrong true or false about ourselves. I used to believe that there was some. way of just like. erasing it and you just you do this you. do this you tap your head you wiggle. your stomach like that and then it's. gone to therapy twice you do this spin. around and it's gone but no matter like. I don't think I've ever met a guest on. this podcast that has gone through some. kind of traumatic early experience in. their life and has ever erased it ever. people will say they've you know they've.

built. new evidence which counteracts it so. that the New Evidence makes the. decisions in their life but it's still. there and traumatic events can make it. flare up. I'm one of like I consider myself to be. one of those people where. I've got to be very aware of of my my. triggers because you know they might. take over the control room once in a. while um. and start calling me shots so. I I feel like. um.

I feel like just like experiencing it. all in the moment. is interesting and like not sort of like. predicting that there's like an end to. it. but you go like huh I have been in this. situation before and like last time I. wasn't aware of these triggers and now I. see exactly what's what wants to happen. and I'm not gonna do it. and like there's the piece of your brain. that's like actively making those.

decisions and going but then there's the. like. I don't know Consciousness or like you. know the spirit that then observes it. and goes huh. like. what happens next like you're playing a. board game right and like something. happens and then like you're sort of. above it and you go where will this go. next. and and every time that your brain. doesn't manage to do that it's not like. going straight back to that place that.

point even though like that's the way. your body's reacting it's like you're. still at this point in the Journey of. life and this is how you're experiencing. it in this moment and like it's not like. oh you failed at like healing because. like there's no end to it it's just. you know in this moment what can you. what can you can what can you learn your. brain has gone back there even though. like previously you've managed to avoid. this or you've managed to sort of like. avoid a trigger or like you know rewire.

something but it hasn't this time so. it's like what can we learn from looking. at it this time how do I see it. differently to a time when I would have. like done this before. and it just it keeps going like every. minute is like an opportunity to like. see. where it will go next. um. and it will never be erased because like. it's a vital part of who you are and.

like without it like you're you would be. in an entirely different person it's. like what is that film. um Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. he like gets his relationship removed. from his brain basically wait yeah I. haven't no but yeah I've heard about. this thing called the Eraser test which. they do on people which sounds exactly. the same yeah. um. it's important it it gives you it it. gives you you know all of the tools to.

make decisions in your life. um if I could give you an eraser. um. would you use it not a single piece. why. because. I feel I think that there's a point in. everyone's life where. they. experience firsthand that life is.

extremely unfair. and it can happen at any point. and it's unavoidable I think well I. don't know Melissa maybe isn't. in a few years I might have a different. answer to this question. but. the things I experienced when I was a. child no person should ever experience. at any point in their life.

but. it's taught me so much. and. I feel this like. com complex like.

a deep emote like these complex Deep. Emotions. um. that are ultimately what I use every. single day as an actor. and. um I can I can I can recall those things. and I'm. I don't know that. I'm grateful for that I'm grateful to. understand. the. deepest pain. and fear and also like the most.

liberating joy and freedom. and like maybe you don't have to go. through those awful awful things to feel. that but I did and. you know this. spectrum of emotions that are like. within me. I feel like incredibly. fortunate. for. because I think that that is something. that's different about me. so you you go through that phase after. being 20 you go through quite um.

significant what's the word. self-disparaging self-hate. um as I've heard you describe it. you find it hard to to think or say nice. things about yourself. have you overcome that. because when you did that interview with. Lewis you were talking as if it was in. the past yeah I desperately wanted it to. be and I still do I think that. um I've got like a lot better at it.

um but you know whenever. whenever. you know I sort of. fall back into. pain or whatever. it always comes back to like this. fundamental feeling that like I'm just. not worth like. any of it like I'm just like not worthy. of like. you know.

and that's like. it's like it's hot it's. it's hard to combat that when you're. like well but I'm really really talking. to myself differently and I'm really. trying to like put up boundaries and I'm. trying to really respect myself and like. do you know. um. treat myself with some respect and then. you just like still get to this point. where you're like ah. so that's like difficult and like that.

is something that I struggle with and I. have like you know. periods of a long time well that doesn't. happen and then you know periods where. it comes back again. um. but yeah just like keep combating it and. telling myself that it's not true and. that I am like. I'm worthy of. everything in life of of. whatever I want from life.

has has. um has anything helped. truly not like you know we say oh this. helped uh here's five tips to help you. [ __ ] [ __ ] we write in our books. and stuff but has anything truly helped. to advance that feeling of worthiness. yeah I. meditation and uh spirituality which are. two things I didn't have a relationship. with for my whole life up until. um 2021.

so yeah five minutes ago five minutes. ago yeah. so just last year. um. everything everything really changed. after that point I. you did mushrooms didn't you no. it was it was awesome. Transcendental Meditation. um. uh and and then like a couple of like. very. like surreal life-changing spiritual.

experiences just like in day-to-day life. like not high or anything. um that I just like couldn't ignore and. I felt like oh I'm like I'm not alone. like. you know like there's something else. um even on like the hardest days like. there's something here that's like. gonna be there like gonna you know. take care of me.

um yeah. and so that's like. easier to then just like keep going you. know. when you were 22 you talked about. um previously having. issues with substance abuse. uh yeah well yeah did you talk about. that or have I just inferred that from. you use the word substance I mean I I. feel like I spoke about this a little. bit on Louis yeah yeah. but like.

I don't want to undermine it but. I guess. whom I say like what normal teenagers do. and what normal teenagers don't do. um but like you know I. like party like took a lot of party. drugs and like partied when I was like a. teenager. um and. I was in the position where like I could. buy more but I didn't really do that. you know to a terrible degree.

I yeah yeah and but but it was like. definitely something that I was like I. need to stop doing this if I want to. like feel happiness. um. because that's the slippery slope. especially things like very accessible. things like alcohol even yeah you know. I've had people very close to me that. have have become alcoholics because of. you know trauma they've been through and. stuff like that and I do do you drink. now what's your relationship like. without alcohol and stuff no not really. I mean I I don't I'm not like sober.

um but I don't I don't really drink like. in the house or like on a weeknight type. thing it's usually like with dinner or. like you know a gig or with friends or. yeah. but yeah a lot of that is like quite um. was quite a welcome like. release I guess it wasn't like something. that I. you're so busy as well I struggled with. if you're filming like 250.

filming days per season or per year yeah. I mean the whole production yeah okay. but yeah yeah exactly it was it was it. was like hot it was you know very busy. schedule a lot of sleep needed to do to. get through there I had a few words to. say about one of my sponsors on this. podcast my girlfriend came upstairs. yesterday when I was having a shower and. she said to me that she tried the heel. protein shake which lives on my fridge. over there and she said it's amazing low. calories you get your 20 odd grams of. protein you get your 26 vitamins and. minerals and it's nutritionally complete. in the protein space there's lots of.

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because I'm trying to drop my calorie. intake and I'm trying to be a little bit. more healthy with my diet so this is. where he all fits in my life thank you. heal for making a product that I. actually like The Salted Caramel is my. favorite I've got the banana one here. which is the one my girlfriend likes but. for me salted caramel is the one quick. one as you might know crafted are one of. the sponsors of this podcast and crafted. are a jewelry brand and they make really. meaningful pieces of jewelry the really. wonderful thing about crafty jewelry is. it's super affordable it looks amazing. the pieces hold tremendous meaning and.

they are really well made I think I've. worn this piece for almost a year it. hasn't broken hasn't changed color. because it's really really good quality. and it costs roughly 50 Quid people will. be surprised when they hear that they'll. probably assume that all of my jewelry. is like solid gold and cost thousands. and thousands of pounds but what's the. point when you can achieve the exact. same effect from a piece of jewelry. that's high quality and costs 50 Quid. that's why I buy crafted we before we. start recording we talked a bit about. Reuben yeah.

your voice changed when I mentioned Ruby. yeah yeah and you're you're wearing a. shirt that he a t-shirt that he designed. yes created yeah. inspired by these artists called. Jean-Claude and Christo it's dope my. husband and wife who wrapped a bunch of. iconic landmarks and buildings in fabric. so cool yeah it's quite cool it's very. me so. um when I'm not wearing all black to try.

and be uh stew Economist on this podcast. um what is how is how is. how has it been going through trying to. figure out romantic love. that's a that was a very difficult thing. for me as I talked about earlier but. how's it been for you what's that. Journey been like. um I think that I I definitely like. resonated when you spoke about. um. like rejecting a lot of like. relationships friendships or whatever. because it's like.

cringe or like not real or like whatever. I I feel like I definitely spent a lot. of time doing that and I never really. confronted. um. the the part of myself that. um. I know it was like desperate to love and. be loved but I didn't really know how I. didn't really know what that looked like. or whatever. um.

I don't really know how deep to go with. this. I never like had relationships where I. was like mistreated. um but that was mostly because like my. trauma response was like whenever there. was like any hint of like. I don't know conflict I was like I'm out. like. no I don't I seen this one before and. I'm not gonna be Hoodwinked by this but.

like the truth is is like they were just. like nice people and I just ran away. like you know and. and cut off like whatever emotions were. there and just like Marie sorry like. it's not really gonna work type thing. um and then. you know with confronted with someone. like Reuben who. um. stop. [Laughter]. um I think that I I met someone who.

um whenever I would start doing that and. start going like oh. they he like saw it within me and was. like you see what you're doing like. you're you're like trying to. sabotage yourself again and like you can. do that like I'm not gonna stop you. yeah. that was the first time that like. someone was patient enough. you know even though you're really. trying to push them away.

to be like. that's fine like I'm not trying to like. tell you not to but like just observe. what is happening right now and like. you can sleep on it fine like you can. sleep on it for a month if you want to. fine like whatever. and it was the first time that. yeah. I. I realized this pattern that I hadn't. been able to capture like catch before. and um yeah it's been incredible it's.

been like four years now and we live. together and. um. I've like never never knew that like. peace and joy and like happiness and. like. like coexisting with another person. could like be this way I never saw this. in my life and like it's just all new. and like. yeah all beautiful. so interesting how sometimes it takes a. certain person to like get over that. wall.

you know and it's funny because I feel. the exact same way we try and stop. people getting over the wall because it. feels like self-defense it's ultimately. self-sabotaged but we we try and prevent. them climbing the wall but then if that. person can get in they can go about. writing a new set of evidence you know. we talked about evidence if that wall is. essentially evidence it's like it's it's. a it's a shield built on faulty evidence. from a from another experience if they. get over it they can help us go on the. Journey of making new evidence but it's.

it's very difficult to get over and then. eventually something they do can just. back get inside that that last line of. defense and it's good when they do right. because. you can learn how wrong you were about. so many things you believed um. and then you go like wow every single. thing that I've. just like Define myself as like. it can all be. different. and like that's. like real freedom I I think.

like yeah just one of those little. pieces. were. yeah everything you. thought you knew about the world just. like. changes you can then be like what else. am I wrong about or like what else. not like even right or wrong it's like. what other ways can I. like experience this like what are the.

how else. can. um. yeah like what new sort of like. possibilities are there. for like who I am and what I'm gonna do. who are you. and what are you gonna do. [Laughter]. um I am. a. um. I'm like a kind and sensitive.

person and. I. want. uh. and I want to like. I want to like I want other people to. feel happy. like I want to I can't like bring like. make people happy but like I want to.

cons I like I'm considerate of like. people around me and like how they might. be feeling or whatever why is that. difficult to say I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I had to like really. think about it maybe it's like. like um if I if I if that's like really. who I am at my core which like I I.

really feel like I'm speaking from that. there's pain there because. why was I made to like feel like I was. such a monster you know. yeah. it's painful because I think like if I. take away all of the things that I. project and like oh like I'm someone who. like speaks their mind and like I don't. care what you think and if I like take. all of that away and I'm like who am I.

really. and I actually just like. you know. like someone who's quite sensitive and. like wants to make you know want wants. to be considerate of the people around. them. like why why do you just like keep. putting things in front of you that are. going to stop you from just like being. that when who you truly are isn't a bad. thing like. those aren't bad qualities to have as a. person so why like why. you know. why am I so ashamed of that or like.

whatever you know. like why yeah why why am I tripping. myself up to like not be that maybe. because like once that wasn't good. enough right and I'm telling myself like. you know that's not good enough. it seems like it makes sense as an. explanation. yeah I was thinking as you're saying I. was thinking well you know if you've if. at one point you had to be someone else.

or you had to be you had to meet. expectations in order to be told that. you were. good enough expectations that were. unmutable you might spend your life. dancing from one expectation to another. just trying to please. the world's expectations and I know you. know now because I've heard you talk. about it that expectations are really. trying to meet social expectations. anyway really are the. slippery slope isn't quite the word but. but it is quite I think slippery. slippers maybe a good phrase to use. because. it's all down from there isn't it once.

you start playing that game. it's the self-destructive spiral down to. [Music]. a place that's hard to climb out of. like maybe I don't value just like. like just kindness and can sit like cons. uh consideration in other people. I'm just spitballing on this by the way. yeah so am I yeah what makes you think.

you're invaluate other people well. just because I I have this other sort of. theory that I've been like steering for. a while where it's like you. you hate them like you you despise the. most like what you are. or like you're you're the you reject the. most. like. who you are inside that would make sense. if who you were was rejected right.

if you were told that who you were is. not a good person and that is a belief. that you have then if you see that in. other people you think well that's not a. good person. because yeah. yeah. I'm just a bit boiling as well but um. you said that you. kindness was a quality that you um in. other people either didn't you thought. you weren't didn't like it yeah maybe. it's something I don't that like value. enough I don't like if I don't think.

it's I'm work like well you were told. not to Value right directions in a sense. because you were that and it was real. negatively reinforced yeah. yeah I'm just guessing but yeah. I guess we both of them yeah what what. is success to you if you are if you know. if you look back in 10 years from now. and say I was successful over those last. 10 years what would that be. well there's like a lot of like tangible. things that I want to do with my career.

um no no no right okay so yeah just like. exactly you. know yeah but like I mean I guess. success would be like. like knowing in my soul that like I just. I deserve any of any of those things or. like. like just uh. um. feeling adequate what is success. well I've I've already said that I don't.

feel like it's a destination right. it's like a happening every second. it's not like it can't look I can't. stand on the other side of success and. look back and be like what a look at. that moment it's like what you look back. on it's every like every time you're at. a Crossroads or a decision and like how. what did you choose to do that's all you. can control is like what's happening. right now. like are you going to choose.

this path or this path like are you. going to behave one way or another way. are you going to do the things that you. don't like about yourself and continue. to do them or are you gonna like do it. differently and you're gonna like talk. about yourself in a different way like. and that's like it's every second and. and there's no other side to it. um I don't know maybe Enlightenment if. you. if you believe that um.

but it's about the. the journey with you're 35 years old you. sat here again yeah and you go. those last 10 years yeah they were a. good 10 years yeah. which I'm sure you will say but if we. sat here you're 35 years old I'm like. I'm dead by then I'm like 75 or. something. I've just turned 30 and I'm like living. a crisis I'll be 40. so. um I love all my 40 year old listeners.

thank you subscribe. um but you're 35. um I'm sat here and I'm 40. we're. looking back on the last 10 years and. we're going yeah that was really really. a great 10 years what would have had to. have have happened in your estimation. for that to be true. um. I guess like. um like control oh no control that. sounds like. like I I. um.

I guess it would be like looking back at. all of the moments and. you know seeing seeing the the conscious. decisions that were made rather than. just like. acting on impulse right. I guess success would be like that was a. point that was really challenging and. like I feel really proud that I didn't. slip back into that old habit or I. didn't like. you know. I I didn't like just go completely. selfish and think like oh my problems.

are the worst in the world like I just. think had a bit of perspective and I. like picked myself up and I I kept going. like I guess that's like I would look. back on those moments and feel like. those decisions like would define those. ten years and I'd be like proud like. proud of of that. um. yeah do you have a do you have a do you. have a sense of mission about you at all. Mission definitely. I mean. the the freedom and.

like the The Joy the. I feel through performing. um and I'm I like it's just it's changed. my life right. and like we're at a place where you know. there's a lot of people who. want to like you know make art creative. people who want to. um sustain a lifestyle of like making. art and like you know.

um whether that be acting singing you. know writing uh. and now I guess like the mission is like. I I want to build companies or like. um you know work with people and like. kind of continue the ethos of like. um you know pushing creative people to. be able to sort of like sustain a life. of like you know creative work because. I'm like in a very fortunate position.

where I do what I love and what. I do also brings me money and. the way that the work makes me feel is. like the best thing ever. and like that those like three things I. think are like a foundational piece of. like being a like a human and like. it's like should not be as hard as it is. for like people to be in that position.

and. um I when I when I'm around like down. about like the world and like. like whether it's the government the. environment or like. anything. um. I like kind of Wonder I'm like what if. like more people could do what they love. for a living like would we actually be. in like just in a better place like. not that those things like influence any. of these like poor decisions but.

like I see like so much there's a lot of. pain like like there's a lot of pain in. the world and like life causes people a. lot of pain. and I am. yeah I just I feel. um I feel like you know art and like. expression through ART and like. channeling. like creativity. I wonder if that would contribute to. making the world a better place.

I want for that to contribute to making. the world a better place. you're a very different person to the. person I watched in all of the previous. interviews. yeah well I didn't I'm still the same. person but I definitely have a different. perspective when I watched um because. you did a few interviews about three. four years ago and in those interviews. um just like I don't know what it was. you were very. very high energy. do you know what I mean like very very.

high energy. um you seem to yeah exactly sorry that. yeah yeah yeah you seem to just be very. um. considered and. uh. what's the right word. very considered and a bit more. calm. now then oh now now yeah. yeah I think that that's like exactly. how I feel and like it's so. like it's so exhausting like.

performing in that way it's not. fulfilling it's not real. it was like I guess I was that way as. like an escape from. from the the quite like the quiet like I. didn't know what was going to be in. there when I like stopped. like. I think that it's like quite a scary.

even though like on the other side of. like self-discovery or like trauma. healing like on the other side of it is. like the answer to all of your problems. like it's it's terrifying it's. terrifying to look inside you because. you've always told yourself that like. you're not good enough and like it's. terrifying because you're worried you're. gonna look inside and be like Oh all of. those things were true but no it's it's.

terrifying to be like wait maybe like I. am actually worth like worthy of like a. good life like and maybe I'm like. stopping myself from doing that like. that's. a crime. that's not like and I think I mean it's. like I've said this a lot but it is a. journey. but I think it's it's it's like a scary. thing to start buying off and then once. you start buying off then you start to.

realize like how selfish that you've. been and you you don't like yourself for. like a number of reasons. but then you start to. like not other reasons to dislike. yourself but it's like. you just I don't know I feel like I like. this you have one life and like and I've. been spending all of this time like. stopping myself from doing it and like. that's. awful.

of myself to do that but it's also to do. that to yourself. it's also just like a waste of all of. that and there's like that other. perspective. um. yeah. but yeah just like stopping and having. that. having that sort of um conversation I. guess like with myself has like it's. changed everything it's changed like.

and it's been so much better now. so much better and it's less tiring so. many people don't don't want to go near. that. onion yeah you know they don't want to. they don't want to go near it and it's. funny because I I I I you know sometimes. with my own naivety or my own. um. mindset privilege or because I'm someone. that loves introspection I'm like go and. peel it back go and peel it why won't. you peel it back on let's go to therapy. yeah you know I must be a pretty.

difficult friend to have if you don't. want to peel back layers because I only. want to peel back I don't want small. talks so yeah yeah but but I sometimes. encounter people that don't want to peel. back the layers and it's frustrating. because you you see the consequences of. unpeeled back layers everywhere in their. behavior and you think well you just. need to peel back the layers and you'll. find the sauce once you know what the. sauce is then you can go about solving. against it or understanding it um. but yeah I don't know what to say to. people when they don't they don't. I guess it's none of my business and.

everyone in their own time. some people maybe will never. start the Journey of understanding. themselves and healing and peeling back. layers yeah sometimes people who you. love and are very very close to and like. you you'll never be able to control that. or or like. force them to or do it for them was. there a catalyst or something that. helped you to take that step and and. start wanting to peel back layers and.

understand was there anything that. or was it just the pain of staying the. same was greater than the pain of making. a change. I think like. I had always been searching but I never. I never knew like how to go deeper how. to like yeah okay and I think. um. yeah Reuben.

meditation. therapy. the pandemic like well because we were. just at home every single day. like a lot of variables like stopped. shifting so I could track my mood like. more. um. accurately because like there wasn't a. bunch of different things happening each. day but I could see like like I could. see it so I guess like the Stillness you.

know. um. but like you have you have to you. you have to you have to choose like what. you want there's Comfort sometimes. within the pain or within like the. um onion. and like you have you have to. choose. whether. got like going going there.

it is gonna be like paint like the most. painful thing you ever do but like have. you know every possibility on the other. side or is it just like safer to like. not and like get by. and like it's okay because I'm not. hurting anyone and like I hurt myself a. little bit but like I can deal with it. it's like that's the thing you and it's. like at that sort of a hard decision to. make and there's never a right time and. like it never like happens as fast as.

you want it to happen and you just like. have to chew like that ultimately is a. choice that only you can make and you. can't make for other people you can't. like persuade them and you can't like. you just have to choose and you have to. do that multiple times where you go I'm. fixed now and then you're not and so you. have to choose again like am I going to. get back on the horse or am I gonna not. and it yeah it's just. professionally then yeah.

yeah oh your face lit up again. I'm like it's I. I it's very liberating to speak this. freely. um in with you in this private setting. but like understanding that it's going. to be public because I I've never really. done that I don't think. um and I'm a bit scared I have to be. honest like I'm quite like concerned a. little bit it's like creeping him yeah. but I really hope that it like. um Can Help the people that it's like.

you know. or I don't know well I hope but um yeah. I hope that's okay what is what is the. concern. um. I don't know it's. like the media training part of you. that's like don't say this and also. because like a lot of things that I've. discussed like they do concern other. people and so you know there's that as. well. um because it it just gets yeah I don't. know.

but it's it's fine it's fine it's gonna. be okay. were you were you um. were you anxious about coming here today. um. uh yes. but I had prepared well no I just had. I wanted.

sometimes I'm anxious because I don't. know where it's going to go and other. times I'm I'm anxious because. um. I I like it's like are you gonna be open. or not or are you going to be honest or. not I guess yeah so that was sort of the. anxious thing where it was like. you know I I went to morning yoga this. morning and I was doing breathing. exercises in the car.

um because it's like it's very easy to. slip back into the like. uh yeah yeah. it's like still a part of me it's still. a very very prominent part of me so yeah. why did you want to do that today why. did you why did you want to be um open. today. like there's a piece that's like missing. and like if I try and really talk about. things honestly like I just know that. there's this like massive like hole that. I'm like dancing around the edge of.

um. and I don't think that it like. yeah. I don't think that that like helps. anything. so. yeah. I guess like what I what I wanted to. speak about today and like we've got we. have spoken about it and it's like been. a lot more emotional than I. you know anticipated but it always is.

right. um. but I I it's like. you know like freedom of expression and. like making art really did change. everything and like. I want other people to to feel that. and like I couldn't talk about that and. without like fully talking about what it. helped me escape from I guess. so yeah it's funny with being an artist. that we um I used to think that our.

creating art was exclusive I said this. in our show what we did up and down the. country open with this I say once upon a. time I used to think that art was. exclusively reserved for people that. were like artists if it's in your bio. then you can do it you can paint you can. create you can make music you can dance. but it only fits in your buy and you've. gone to like school for it yeah everyone. else we're all like other things artists. over there everyone else over here and. um it was actually when I left my job as. a CEO that I thought to myself at a.

fundamental level if I remove all these. labels that society's given me what am I. and that's when I discovered the art in. me that I'd been suppressed because. society says you're an artist and I'm a. CEO. yeah but we're all artists and that. realization has been so amazing for me. in my mind and my mental health and all. those things. do you think we're all artists I do and. I think that you can there's a lot of. words you can use for that that might. make you know people more comfortable. with you know that as a label but I.

think like fundamentally like. since the beginning of time like humans. have like made things and they've just. like got increasingly like complex and. like they maybe they've altered like the. human state in like lots of ways and. like you know the way we think and the. way we behave or whatever but like we've. always made things like at our. fundamental level like we've used tools. and we we've made things. and whether you like see your approach.

to life or like your mind is like more. like analytical or something like it's. there's it's still like creation like. you're still creating things. um. and finding like. what you create like very freely and. like being able to do that as much as. possible is like an incredibly. fulfilling thing and it doesn't have to. be like painting or like these very sort. of rudimentary like clear sort of.

artists Industries like. I don't know like I I've listened to. like some business podcasts and stuff. and they talk about like sort of like. running a company yeah you can probably. have more insights but like when people. are doing like what they're amazing at. and like other people are doing things. that they're amazing at and like you. don't get people. to do things that like they're very slow. and like don't understand or like don't. like doing or like and that's like how. you can like move very quickly.

[Music]. and and so it's like but what about like. the whole world like not that the whole. world is like a company or whatever but. like like what if we could all do what. we're like. that comes effortlessly to us like. yeah and it's not just like a but like a. bunch of people sitting around painting. like it's not that at all if you think. about artists as like that very sort of. like. but if people were like free to create. and to like explore their mind and like.

you know Express through through. building through making. um the thing that um people sometimes. struggle with is they will say well I've. got this job and I I can't do that I'm a. you know I gotta go to this building sir. and I gotta put you in I've got to do. this thing and I've got I'm a cleaner so. I've got to do this or I've you know I. work in a supermarket or. um I'm a driver so I can't I can't be an. artist I can't create anything sorry. Maisie. yeah well.

and this is what I always want to be. like incredibly. um. I guess like. from that person's perspective yeah I. don't have a clue like what I'm talking. about right and it's like it's all like. very nice like in theory but like get in. the real world and like I understand. that perspective. and that's why I think it's like. a like.

like a like a a problem like that's. rooted through like even the way that. like children are like educated like all. the way through to. like the way we see. like our working life span like. but I believe I I understand what you're. saying you're saying wouldn't it be. wonderful if everybody could get to that. place if that was even if it's a you. know and I I I personally think that.

um I really would love you know if I. could waive a wand and everyone. listening to this could maybe take one. thing away from this from my my from how. I've received it it's like we don't have. to give up on that dream of creating. just because like I remember working in. call centers I remember doing all of. those things but I would. I would also prioritize as much as I. possibly could. understanding the context I'm in and. everyone's in a different context not. one that I can speak to. that um the way out of that for me was. like owning my my own space of creation.

even if that meant home and like playing. a video game where I got to like build a. virtual world or in the case of me it. was I was building this business called. wallpark and it's actually more so now. that I'm like learning to DJ and I'm. like doing these shows I'm writing these. books that I'm like. um no matter how much I get caught up in. my identity of like building businesses. whatever I should always reserve a split. space for like creating if possible and. that is so good for the mind I hope. everyone because I know everyone. listening to this there'll be a guy you.

know driving up in a lorry listening to. this right now but he knows he loved. playing the drums and at some point he. told himself that oh I can't do that. that's a silly thing that's a. distraction yeah it's a waste of time. that's the worst one yeah yeah I think. like the the. like snowball of like opportunities that. like or possibilities that it opens up. when you just like. yeah you don't tell yourself no I can't. do that anymore because I don't have. time or I don't have.

um you know it's like yeah I'm I have to. do this instead or I have to do this. instead like switching switching like a. little portion of your week over. to like freely creating. um. I I think it can bring incredible things. for people wasted time is a really. interesting concept that I've I think in. the last two weeks of doing this podcast. I start to think a lot about was. actually last night someone said to me. oh we should watch um but they say. Prison Break.

and I remember like my brain went that's. a waste of time and then I corrected. myself to them and I didn't say it to. them but I remember going do you know. what nothing is really a waste of time. because if you think about the way. creativity works and how we Source. inspiration from so many random things I. think it's and also if you just if it. relaxing is not a waste of time no but I. think we've been quite conditioned to. see if it's not productive and resulting. in some kind of you know quantitative. Roi it's a waste of time yeah what's. your relationship with.

time and empty time and space. well I mean it's changed a lot but I. think like currently. um I I don't. like. I don't try and like control like time. this is taking too long this isn't like. you know this needs to happen now or. like oh I should be doing this but I. haven't. um. I've spent like a lot of my time like. I've spent a lot of my time.

uh like it's torching myself over like. whether I spent time in like the most. like. uh. like. useful way or whatever. um. but now. it'll it. feel like we even said something. recently because like we've been talking. about time a lot and like. sort of this discussion of like is it.

linear like. and this is kind of like you know quite. like can be quite sort of. hypothetical or whatever uh dense things. about like the history of the universe. and like what we all are and what it all. means. but he said something very interesting. recently where he was like I I feel like. what time can do is like arrange itself. before you. and like he sort of talks about like his. schedule like sometimes in a week like. there's a million meetings and they're. all happening at the same time and it's.

like uh like are you gonna go like uh I. need to change everything he was like oh. do you just like Let It Be and then it. magically kind of like this person needs. to do something earlier and this person. needs to do something like later so like. these calls all move and then we need to. cancel because so I've got covered like. he was like it like if I like stress and. try and manipulate my calendar to be. like perfect. one that's really really stressful and. two I don't do that and it sometimes.

just like it most of the time just sort. of falls into. into place and so I I've always thought. that was really interesting so in those. times where I was like I I need to be. doing this right now but like I can't do. it I can't focus I can't whatever. I am like the space the the block of. time where I'm supposed to do this is. going to find me. that sounds like I'm like avoiding all. responsibilities no it makes perfect. sense to me.

many ways I received that the first one. was just like okay I can't control the. future anyway so there's so much anxiety. surrounding trying to the second thing. is that like. my priorities and what I care about will. end up shaping this all anyway so like. if this ran over by a couple of minutes. and I wanted it to run over that's fine. because I made the conscious decision. that this was my priority versus I don't. know walking my dog or something and so. my priorities my values will hopefully. lead me and then there's loads of things. out of my control which is not for me to. worry about anyway so the future should.

be somewhat fluid and accepting that's. not always an easy thing but it's. probably a better way to look at our. time. I want to enjoy the journey so. you're enjoying the journey right yeah. more so now than ever. yeah good. are you uh yeah I'm enjoying the journey. yeah yeah I am I just take every day I. think I've just always just taken every. day as it comes and like some days I do. really [ __ ]. and that's okay.

but I can't do anything about it now so. I just try and. to just. as I said earlier like channel that into. like. learnings feedback yeah. being better. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast which you might be aware of. um it's where the last guest writes a. question for the next guest oh cool now. I have okay I haven't okay so they don't. know who they're writing it for. and you will never know who asked it. okay. and I don't get to read it until now.

okay this person has a bit of a. interesting handwriting okay mine is. worse I'll say but but um here we go. what's the last decision you made. that went. completely sideways. plus what did you do. to correct it. brackets if you could correct it.

was like a lot of a lot of things I'm. thinking of and I don't know like. Okay so. I have been working in Paris recently as. you know. um. and I uh I was diagnosed uh like a year. and a half ago with ADHD and I take. medication every day and I like. prescribe that in the UK and I'm like. working in France so I ran out. um.

and like couldn't get any more in time. to like go away. I don't know if this is going to be like. insightful nobody's been sightful at all. um. to correct it I tried to get some sent. over but that like wasn't working for. lots of different reasons. um but I guess like the main thing that. I did. was like stop beating myself up about. like. not like organizing it better so as I.

had it because I was already feeling. like terrible. um but. you know torturing yourself over this. and telling yourself oh you could you. could have your medication right now if. you'd have just or if you'd have just. done this then you'd be fine right now. but instead you're gonna struggle like. instead of sort of going down that path. I just was like it's done I can't change. it. like I'm I can't do this like oh like my. my brain is like hitting a wall with.

like you know I don't know to-do list or. like whatever. and I had just have to ride it out what. made you want to go and get. checked for ADHD but then even that. assumes you wanted to go get checked. I've been speaking to a psychiatrist for. like a long time so he's known me for. for quite a while. um and we've sort of like yeah between. between him and like therapy that I do. sort of more actively.

um. like more regularly yeah. um and he suggested it yeah. yeah and it made sense to you it did. like a lot of the things that I like. have noticed about myself. um. like I always remember my mom being like. yeah but you know I struggle with this. and I struggle with that too like you. know and I think she raised me knowing. all the things that she knew about. herself like in a very particular way. and I got to do a lot of things that.

came very naturally to me. um uh and she was sort of forced to do. things like she just you know. and so but it was like funny because he. was sort of telling me all these things. I'm like yeah but my mum does that and. he's good yeah it runs in the family. interesting so um yeah it was quite a it. was quite a interesting thing just for. me and my mum to go through actually. um. yeah like had more perspective on myself. but also like more perspective on on her. too which was kind of cool what is your. relationship with the mum I realize I've.

not mentioned her yeah we haven't. um my relationship with my mum is in a. really really good place now. um no I mean she. it's like it has been my whole life. um she. I mean she like kind of gave me the. greatest gift of all and just like. supported whatever it is what I wanted. to do. um. and it kind of led me to like the most. extraordinary places and we did a lot. like together.

um. and in more recent years I think I've. like I've well you know grown up but. also sort of like you know been more. more independent and like that is like. adjusted our relationship. um as it does like you know very. naturally. um but it's just been like interesting. for the two of us to navigate that from. from being like quite in ways. codependent you know like she traveled. with me while I was like. between the age of like. like 12 to 16 17 and like those are.

usually the years when everyone's like. Mom like you're not cool I don't like. you and like me and my mom were like. thick as thieves and we just like. traveled like travel the world together. like me and her. um uh so we were like very like very. very close and like very like had a you. know and we still are we still have all. those things but it was it's just been. very interesting like you know growing. up and and having. uh. like having parts of my life that that. are like just simply my own and like.

parts of my career and struggles with my. career that I get through on my own. because like you know I I that's okay I. can do that now and just like the way. that that's been like strange for us. both I think. was there a point with your relationship. with your mother where you started. having those difficult conversations. about the things you were realizing. about yourself and your past and is. there because I I'm just I'm not that. close to my parents so I've just never. had. um I've never had those conversations. yeah like we. yeah we've definitely had like those.

conversations. um. yeah it's like incredibly painful. like. it it yeah I think. there's like so much pain you know that. you have like in your own experience but. like you know you'll. it's yeah it's like. very painful to think about like people. that you love like being in pain as well. or like whatever so.

yeah. well Maisie um thank you thank you for. uh thank you for coming here today and. thank you for having this conversation. with me. um I learned so much from you know some. everyone I speak to but. um. it's interesting. You're such I feel like I feel like. you're I feel that you're such a good. human being at your core and it it.

almost. um. uh yeah it's difficult for me I feel. like you're such a pure good human being. you know and so I really like feel I. feel like every tear you've cried and I. feel all of your all of your pain as. well. um I've never actually got up and hugged. someone during the conversation but no. you are you're such a beautiful pure. human being and um I'm so deeply hoping. that you um. you get comfortable with that truth too.

however long that takes for you because. it is the truth and um because that is. the truth it means that you're so. deserving of so much. more so than I am you're definitely no. you are because you are you are. literally like a within there you are a. complete Ray of joy and sunshine and. love and kindness and all those things. that I'm striving to be even better at. so. um thank you and you know. uh thank you for your honesty because. it's unbelievably difficult and it's.

easier not to be but you you won't even. get to see all of the the people that it. serves and helps in so many profound. ways so that's what I want to thank you. for and your suit and it's just. tremendously inspiring we didn't even. get to talk about how hard you've you've. worked um professionally we did a little. bit off off air but um to achieve all. the things you've achieved at such an. unbelievably young age but. um that inspires me um your openness and. honesty inspires me your wisdom inspires. me and you know I'm so excited you're 20. [ __ ] five which is unfair it's like.

crazy it's crazy. um crazy that you've done so much and. you're such a beautiful person at such a. young age so thank you Maisie thank you. thank you for having me. um and thank you. um thank you for this incredible podcast. I think. um. you as you have spoken about have a real. range of guests but I think that you.

um you approach everyone on like a very. sincere and like. um consistent level and I think that. like you as a person are like very real. and that sort of brings out like a real. openness and in the people that you talk. with but you also like. clarify at every sort of Point any part. that you don't understand which not only. makes it helps you understand but it.

brings like the audience in in a way. that like a lot of other people don't. whether because like they don't want to. ask questions because they don't want to. look like they don't know or whatever. like you you. are like very authentic. um and like. it's incredibly calming to be around. um so thank you. huge compliment thanks Maisie.

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