Louis Theroux: "The Thing That Makes Me Great At Work, Makes Me Bad At Life!" | E198

What makes me good at my job is also what makes me bad at life. This is maybe more than. you bargain for Louis do. Our next guest has interviewed everyone. Amani Chicken. It's. a cathedral of poor. That's a little offensive. You're a very fascinating person. How do you. connect with. I'm just so curious about what takes someone to that place, why people do. the things that they do. The question I get asked most often is, how do you not get angry with some of these people,

especially the ones who are sort of spewing hate? If, if people see like your temperature. wrestle intimacies from them, that's never gonna go well. I think also there's some part. we thinks maybe other person's got it figured out, and I haven't. Your former wife said there's nothing real about you, Jimmy Saville. He also said something. about insincerity being your specialty. That's good. I'm glad you brought that up, . I remember. it vividly. First of all, I neglected my personal life to focus on achieving professional success.

The price was paid by those nearest and dearest to me. When did you get that feedback? I saw my relationships as a life support system for my kind of work. self instead of the other way around saying to my wife, well, this is what I do. I did. a lot of great segments just by being available at a moment's notice. I just think, oh, this. isn't going well. So it became a bit of an impas. Is it something that comes with a cost and is it something you want to.

Before this episode starts, I have a small favor task from you. Two months ago, 74% of. people that watched this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So. if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you. do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've. seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. Louie, you're a very fascinating person. Thank you, . And I've, you know, I've, as I've read.

through your story, I read your autobiography as well. I was trying to understand what I. needed to understand about your earliest experiences to really understand the man that you are. today. Mm-hmm. . The interesting personality you have and the trajectory you went and took. in your life. So please enlighten me. What, what, what are the most pertinent things that I need to know.

about your earliest years to understand you? Oh my goodness. We could, I, I could, I spent. two hours answering that question on its own. I dunno how interesting it would be. I'll. try and give you a brief answer. I like the long answers. Oh, do you? Yeah. Well, first of all, my, um, parents are my mom's British. My dad's. American. They are both, um, in, in different respects. So free thinkers, they, they grew. up in the sixties and they embraced aspects of the counterculture. They regarded their.

own parents as being in certain respects of limited and cloistered. And, and, and so my mom joined, uh, VSO volunteer service overseas to get experience of life. in Africa. My dad joined the Peace Corps. He would've been probably enlisted to serve. in Vietnam, and he didn't wanna do that, so he went to teach in Africa as well. And that's. where they met. So I was raised, um, I was born in Singapore where they were teaching. Uh, my brother was born in, in Uganda where, um, where they were teaching at that time,

my older brother, but then we, they settled in London. And, and so growing up I was conscious. of, of them as people who, who, who really encouraged us to open our minds and maybe, you know, in, in it was sort 99% positive. Like 1% I think. Like a lot of people, you know, people use this term social justice warriors right? As. a form of judgment about overly do gooding. Like there there's an element of, I don't. tend to use that term cuz I sort of, it's become, it's been weaponized. But I suppose.

in a sense my parents were kind of social justice warriors. Like they were very much encouraging me to challenge or us to challenge racism where. we saw it to challenge sexism, to be, uh, open to new experiences, not to fall into. easy judgements about other cultures and other countries and other people. And, and, and, and I only say the 1% sometimes that can be inflected with a little bit of a sense of. superiority. And I talk a bit about that in my book, A slight feeling that we weren't really like,

quite like other people, you know, other people were maybe not quite as smart or not quite. as literary, you know? And I don't, I don't, you know, I strive not to endorse whatever. is in me. Remains in me of that I try to unpack and eradicate, but nevertheless, that's the. way. Looking back on it, that's something that I see and pick up on. My dad's a writer, a. novelist. My mom is a, you know, after teaching, uh, my dad became a very successful literary. novelist and travel writer. My mom went on to become a radio producer and worked for.

the BBC World Service, which is, for those who don't know, that's the service that broadcasts. all over the world. And it's, it's a bit like Radio four, but broadcast this tiny language. It's extraordinary. institution. It sort of represents in some ways the best of the bbc. But, um, so I was. growing up sort of aware that we, you know, we were a family that loved books and, and. loved reading and, you know, we watched TV and listened to pop music and did the normal. things. But I think underneath it was a feeling that to really count in life, um, you should be.

a literary writer. Like that was, that was. Without me fully maybe acknowledging it that. was underneath this thing that you should really, I think still my dad probably feels. that, like he's very supportive of me and my TV making, but he's like, Lou, you thought, have you thought about writing another book? Lou, you, you, you know, you've got time, you've got the talent. You can, I don't, I. don't wanna push you into this, but Lou, you know, you should think about writing a book.

That's a great idea for a book. You know, that kind of thing. Anyway, so that all of. that was under underlying my attitude to life than they sent me off to, um, school, primary. school. I'm gonna have to, I mean, you wanted a long answer. This is maybe more than you bargain. for, I suppose alongside that is the, the influence of friends and, and, and, you know, I can start the, and, and the, so the countervailing impulses of growing up in the seventies and. eighties in South London and being exposed to funny, creative people and my friendship.

group. Which who, you know, met some of them had gone on to work in civilian lives, as, you. know, restaurateurs or, or, or, or you know, music, other stuff. But, but Saliently were, uh, Adam Bucks and Joe Cornish and another friend, a Sandler who were super creative. Adam and Joe went on to have their own TV show, and I was conscious of falling in with. a little group, Amelia of, of um, like-minded kids who were very funny, really into movies,

tv. And that was where I suppose I began to feel that there was, well, you know, I don't wanna. o in hindsight, it's tempting to, um, sort of read back, read back what I do now into. that. But I just know that, that, that friendship group was very important to me and maybe counteracted. some of the more, cuz I was academic. I was, I was, I did really well at school. I feel I could just go on and on. Should I. go? Should I keep going? I just listen here. Cause the other part of it was that I was,

um, I was quite an anxious child, so I, I would, I would, I worried about everything. and, uh, I, I would think about things that were on the horizon. Like when I was five or six years old, I remember fixating, you know, there were various things. that came and went that really worried me. But one was, um, the idea of mohole dancing, which was a big, I dunno if it's still like in, in state primaries. Um, at that time,

Every May holiday like you would do may pole dancing. What is that, sorry. It's, it's a, it's, it's a, it is an old English or maybe British tradition. where there's a big pole. I think it's like a fertility, right? , you knows to touch a. wicker man about it. You know, it's an enormous kind of ma a pole like maybe like, like a. totem pole almost likes a 20 feet high and then there's ribbons around it. And as children you would skip round it and you would sort of braid the ribbons together. to form nice patterns. And I remember seeing them doing it in primary school and thinking.

like, that looks really hard and I'm gonna have to do that next year and I dunno how. I'm gonna do it. And just, I remember being preoccupied with how am I gonna learn how. to do that? I only mentioned that as an example. Like there were other things that, just reading. before I could read. I remember seeing my older brother reading and think, I dunno how. you do that. And just getting very worried about it. So in general, my, I'm someone who. is pre, I know everyone worries, but I just feel as though that. feeling of worry and anxiety was quite a strong background note. And sometimes I would control. my anxiety, not consciously, but again looking back by working hard, like by, by by sort.

of just sort of becoming almost like super focused on academic work and um, and as a. result I did very well in school. And um, you know, like those people who look back. and say like, well I was a fuck up in school. I was the opposite. Like I didn't always, you know, I would get in trouble. Like, and. sometimes I was regarded as, especially when I was younger, 12, 13 as a disruptive element.

cuz I was also quite cheeky and sometimes tried to com communicate and connect with. people via teasing. Right. Which is, I don't know if that's a common, it's quite a British. thing in a way. It's certainly a big thing in my family was. What's now called bans. Right. And sometimes. I try and do bans with my teacher and then it wouldn't go well. And so, but, but in general, which is confusing, like regarding being regarded as a black sheep in class or a disruptive. person in class. And then, um, but then also getting in trouble.

They said like, it's fine for you to mess about and get in trouble and then you do the. homework and you are fine, but you're a bad influence on the other kids. I used to get. told that you're a bad influence on your, I was like, that's not true at all. Like if. anything, my friends were just as naughty and were leading me astray, but nevertheless, because I could sort of go home and then become sort of organized and focused on my work, I got a, I got for a brief period, I got labeled as the troublemaker.

Anyway, going through school, I, I sort of, Sort the, the load stars for my, um, so sense. of who I was and how I would progress in life, such as it is. I mean, I was never that tactical, but as I went, as I went through school, I thought, well, I'm, I'm pretty good academically. I guess I'll just do well in exams and stuff and then see what happens. And meanwhile with my friends, we'd be seeing movies. I got into rap music in the late eighties, and so we were dressed like a sort of hiphop nerd. I was smoking quite a lot of weed, but.

still studying. This was sort of, again, age 16, 17, but it never really interfered with. my, with my work. I went on to Oxford and then having done well at Oxford, um, left. university and, and at that point was like, well, what happens now? That was when it felt like, okay, now I've no longer really got a clear path. Does that.

make sense? Yeah. You know, I think if you. If you are, if you're academic, if you find. academic work, not easy, but you find that you do well at it, cuz it's not easy, but. you apply yourself and you do well at, then sometimes life can be a weird, um, bump in. the road, like real life. It's something like, well, where are the exams? Because I know I can do those, you know, what. do I do now? So for a while I thought maybe I would be like a professor or an academic. or something, but then something in me told me that wasn't quite right. So then the rest.

of life is another story. But I hope that sort of answers your questions about those. different, um, those different, uh, sort of sources of, of how I, you know, whatever it's. personality and interests. One of the things that really stood out to me in that answer was your, your early relationship. with work. You said you used to work hard to kind of suppress or kind of distract yourself. from the anxiety of life. Is that accurate? Well, what it is, is, um, Well, I, I worried.

about things in general and um, you know, one of those worries was homework or doing. well in, in, in school. Another worry was getting on with my peer group. But, uh, in so far as I can, I could. control those sources of anxiety. Like, you know, I work is actually relatively straightforward, like in terms of like, how do I get more, you know, how do I attempt to relate to people.

better? Well, that's, that's kind of hard. It's like mysterious. But how do I do well at these assignments I'm being given? Um, then you just sit down and do them, um, until you get it right. And, and you know, a lot. of these things are. Aren't are subconscious. Like I'm not thinking like, oh, how can I. control my anxiety? But I would just find that I, I I, if, if exams were coming up, I'd get super anxious.

And, um, and I don't mean to pathologize it, like I've never been diagnosed with an anxiety. disorder. I've just slightly worry prone. And as it happens, I've become less worry. prone as I've grown up. And it may be that there were other things going on, you know, in my family life, who knows. Um, in, in, you know, my parents' marriage wasn't always. happy. They subsequently divorced. There were other things that probably were going on that were. stressful, but for whatever reason I found that, or without, almost without meaning to,

I, I would, I took my studies, uh, very seriously. I have to sort of slightly check myself when. I say this cause I do, I'm also aware that I've looked back at some of my reports having. kind of got quite attached to this narrative of myself. A sort of super swat, right? Super studious. And I've looked at some of my old report cards. and some of them are, are, especially when I'm six or seven, sort of say, um, you know,

Louis's a pleasure to have in class, but I sometimes it would be nice if he would let. other pupils speak. He, he, he enjoys the sound of his own voice kind of thing, which. is very apropo for this podcast. Probably , you know, and like, so, so I, I, I had a sort of rambunctious side and almost. in social settings, my mum tells a story essentially in my book, but of, of how, when I was about. five or six, I would come home, I'd be really sad, I'd be like, I don't know, I don't think. I don't like school anymore. And she'd sort of think, well, Louis's obviously not getting.

on well at school. I need to talk to his teacher. And she went into to class and um, and talked to the teachers. and said, do you understand Louis's very sensitive. He's a very sensitive young man. As I said, I would've been maybe five or six, seven years old. And the teachers were like, really? Yes, he's a very sensitive, like, just be mindful that, you know, things you can say might hurt. his feelings. Something like that. And they were like struggling to recognize her description of me. And then.

on the way out of class, she passed the classroom, could see through one of the glass windows. in the door, and I was running along the desk tops or doing a dance on top of a desk. In. other words, like it was almost like in the setting itself, I was a wild child and, and. she running a muck. But also I had like this doubling like, then I go home and be kind of be, be worrying about. small, which I think is probably still true of me in some ways that I have a, um, I have. that sort of disruptive trickster impulse alongside certain, um, a certain sensitivity.

Is that defense mechanism or a a a way to, I don't know, survive in a social setting. or is that the true you Are I just who I am and I think, you know, I could say, oh, well. I was a younger child and. my parents found me funny and I, I wanted to perform and I, I wanted my dad to, you. know, I wanted to get my, the approval of my parents by being silly. But the fact is, is who knows? Like, I just know that, you know, things like your sense of humor or your.

inclination to, to be cheeky. That's just always been in me, you know? And, you know, I'm slightly wary of attempting to, to sort of, um, unpick where that comes. from, because I just know that's, that's, that's always been in. The relationship with. work. I, I think even for myself, I, I learned my relationship with work at a very young. age and I've, I think I developed quite an unhealthy relationship with work at the expense. of other things that matter in life. Yeah, me too. I think I can relate to that. And that's what I was trying to understand.

is like, when did you, where did your relationship with work come from? On one hand I was guessing. maybe it's from his father who was very, you know, insistent on being an intellectual. Is a, is success Louis or is it from the distraction of, from anxiety and from the social thing. where you could be successful at exams? Cause you were good at that, so you double down. I think it was all of the above. Like. my dad's got, both my parents have work ethics that border on the sort of being over the. top. My dad, uh, would, you know, he's a, he's a, as I said, he's a writer and at the.

weekend, Like, he didn't really take weekends off. Like certainly Saturdays he would often be writing and Sunday mornings he was often writing. and, and he, he's an extra. I wanted to give both my parents a shout out. See, I'm, my. parents were, um, were basically first generation university educated, came from very much not. at the high table of life. And, and so for my dad to, to sort of become a wealthy literary.

writer, it's kind of an amazing thing that he did, you know, in the world of, you know, it's one thing to be a popular novelist, that's hard anyway. To be a, a, a novelist or travel writer who's extremely successful, hadn't, you know, sold. hundreds of thousands or millions of books just, uh, without any leg up in life is an.

amazing thing. And, um, I wonder if I've ever told him that. I hope I have. Anyway, he'll. listen to this probably cuz he, he follows my, he follows my career with interest. So some of that I would've taken on board just through osmosis of seeing that. Likewise, um, my mom being super studious, going to Oxford, she grew up in Tooting, you know, and, and her, her sense of self belief, or her sense of her own destiny, whatever it.

was. And in her small, you know, peer group of kids who were educated at a state school. and then through her own hard work and the support of her teachers going to Oxford, you. know, in the sixties as a woman, that was extremely unusual. So that, that was in the air. But in the end, and, and my older brother, who was very studious. And the other thing just to reflect on is that I saw my brother as the more brilliant. child like he was to, to, the way I saw it at the time was more effortlessly. Brilliant,

like sort of child prodigy material, you know? And I thought I was just kind of a sort of irrelevant bit of after birth that, you know, trailed around after him. And so when I noticed that I was getting fairly good results, um, when I sort of 11, 12, it didn't feel particularly impressive. Like, it felt like, well, I guess. I could, I can do well if I work hard.

It's not like I'm kind of brilliant like my older brother. Um, but I think when I, you. know, again, in hindsight I think mainly what I see is, um, is a sense that I just felt. like this was something I had to do. It wasn't a choice. And I even later on when I was at. university, I sometimes used to worry that, um, I wonder if I'm missing out. You know, people say it's the best years of your life and you should be hang, you should. be just. Going wild, having fun. And I did a, you know, some of that, but I was also.

conscious of like, maybe I'm missing out by working, by studying too hard. That's what. I read in, into your story of university was that I wrote, I actually wrote in my notes, worked his ass off at Oxford on the point of affection. This is also something I probably didn't learn from my parents. If I'm honest. I still call. my parents by their first names. Um, did they encourage you to do that? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I. just didn't, I didn't learn affection and actually, you know, even growing up at 10.

years old when one of my friends turned to me and went, you're my best friend, my body. like, Because the, the idea that's I was someone's best friend made me cringe. And I had this, I think I had this like emotional intimacy affection issue growing up. Although. I think being a best friend is something you show, but don't say, yeah, , it's a bit creepy. You're my best friend. Yeah. I remember feeling stressed when a friend said that to me and, and thinking, uh, because you then you feel like, you say, oh, you are my best friend.

And then it feels a bit inauthentic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. You're like, do it. Don't. say it . You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I love you. It didn't feel necessary to say. on Yeah, exactly. But, but what, what is, what did you learn about affection at a young. age? I, I feel really lucky that my parents, um, I feel as though they were, you know, they, they worked hard. Like I had a working mom. My dad was, as I say, had a huge. Drive to be successful, but.

I, I always felt like the love that they had for me was just taken as red. Like, I, I never. questioned it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way that felt positive. And. even though, you know, I think there's a tendency or a temptation nowadays to look back and, and be thinking about things that could have been otherwise. And I think, you know, parts of that therapy culture are really valid, but there's also. a sense in which, um, you can focus on negative stuff. And I'm not sure at a certain point.

how, how healthy or helpful it is. And, and, and so for me, I, I never kind of questioned. like the love, the love that they, they had for me. And I, it was, it was never the case that I felt I was kind of, um, seeking their approval. Like I remember friends at school saying, well, my. . My parents say if I do well in. common entrance, they're gonna get me a watch. And I remember thinking, that's quite weird,

you know, or my, my parents never, I never felt like they needed to be I, that I was. in any sense doing like working hard for them. And if they took an interest, that was kind of a bonus. But I didn't rush to show them. like I got all A's, or you know, I was, I came first in all the exams or whatever. I. wouldn't really talk to them about it. Like that was just something that I did for me. What about emotional expression? I think that's something that we learn how to say, like,

I love you. And to hug and to be, to touch and, uh, cause you said bounce, you said? Yeah, like I've. my. humor is really important. I say such a kind of what though? Cause that's so dead. It's cringe. I mean, have my kids voices in my head. But, you know, humor is a very important. way of communicating. You know, humor is really, I often think, you know, in terms of how I.

see life, that's why worrying, I sound a bit humorous, but anyway, how I see life is like, humor is like the, the missing dimension in terms of, it's almost, it can't really be. expressed. But my, uh, we, we shared a sense of humor as, as a family. And so we would make each. other laugh. And so teasing was important. Wouldn't, it'll, um, just not taking yourself. too seriously. My parents. Well, I would say, um, like I respected them, I would've, I see.

how my kids behave towards me and I'm that classic thing of like, God, if I did that. to my parents, that would not have gone well. It's not that I think of them being especially strict. I didn't feel they were at the time, but I wouldn't have dared to. Um, I, I don't know, like there there was a sense of of of. them having boundaries that I would respect and observe mean. They, they slight also,

they slightly cheated because we went to boarding school, me and my brother, age 13. So those difficult teenage years of sort of 13 to 18 or 13 to 17, they were part timing. it. And if mom and dad, if you're listening, I'm sorry about, that's what it is, right? They, I mean it was weekly boarding and they got me in the holidays, but other than that, they were getting me half of Saturday and Sunday. So I've got kids who are teenagers and. You know that that's where like the, the, a lot. of the conflict kicks in. So, uh, when I look back at how I related to my parents, there.

were, there were times when, um, it felt like they didn't get me or they were being too. hard on me, or the mixed messages because they were sort of on one hand being free spirited. and saying like, if you wanna smoke some split Louis, like, that's fine, just be careful. you don't get caught, like, kind of thing. Or other times you'd be like, how dare you, you're going out there, you know, what, what. are you doing? Like, it was like, well, which part of the, are we being, are you being counter-cultural.

kind of dudes or are you gonna be like Victorian parents? Like, which is it? But in general, um, I, I kind of, I kind of got it. I kind of got, I got, I kind of got the, um, you know, that it was about, there was a foundation. of love and approval that was, you know, it was unconditional. And, and, and I think if. I had anything, to sort of, and to sort of reflect, reflect on approach them for, not. reproach, but sort of reflect on things that in hindsight could have been different.

It's the feeling that because they were work focused and also because their relationship. was complicated, sometimes it felt like, um, that me and my brother and I were slightly. a si a side effect. Like we weren't, and again, I could spin that as a positive actually. Like there was a sort of a level of us being autonomous. You know, we had whatever the opposite helicopter parents is. They, we, we slightly had that.

Like, they were like, okay, cool. You know, you do, you, and, and, and, um, and I think. again, that can be, I, I kind of quite grateful in some ways for that, but. You know, they. had their own thing going on. It reminds me of something Tim Grover said, which I've repeated. a few times. He says he used to train Michael Jordan and uh, Kobe Bryant. And he, I spoke to him on. this podcast when we did the LA Run and he said that sometimes an event that happens.

in our life or something that happens can create our brilliance. Mm-hmm. , it can be. responsible. In the case of that kind of void of independence your parents create, creates. someone that works and that goes and gets stuff and that's able to travel and be an. island. Um, but it also can create our dark side. Mm-hmm. like the same event creates our brilliance, but also our dark side. So my question to you is from that particular experience of. having that independence and feeling a bit like you were a side thing in their lives, what was then the, the dark side? I can see the upside. I can, what's the upside? For me it felt like the upside you were saying is the independence.

you had. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That being the space to grow and. become your own person and not feel that you're especially kicking against. Anything but licensed. to follow your own interest. I think that's all positive. I think, um, uh, what is the look? I think in general, what, you know, I've said this and probably someone else said it as well, like that, you. know, what you think maybe your disability is also your superpower. Exactly. And I think,

um, uh, I think that I, in, I think I've struggled with intimacy sometimes. My, you know, and, and I think I, you know, in terms of relationship building in, in my. private life, like it's a running joke between me and my wife, like that she's extremely.

sort of emotionally acute and that I'm slightly the opposite, which is kinda weird when you. think about my job, which hinges on. Uh, supposedly being sort of maybe emotionally or psychologically. perceptive, but it is almost as though, but I see in my mum as well, like my mom having. worked at the bbc, went into, um, therapy and became a relationship counselor. And it's funny because, um, my mum also finds it difficult sometimes to, to fully inhabit.

her, her emotions if it doesn't sound an odd thing to say. And, and I, I'm gonna probably. regret saying that, but let's make it about me. And I think with me, I think, um, yeah, I don't always find intimacy easy. Like it's, it, it, it's so, so, so I sort of, I, I experience. like a lot of the times my work. Is a license to be intimate without consequences. Like to get to, to a bit like what you are.

doing now. Like you talk to people, someone in a prison, you know, who's been sentenced. to 10 life sentences, he's like, okay, how does that feel? So what is, what's life like? And, and then kind of get getting or whatever happens to be. All the work I've done in some sense is about attempting to peel layers back and, and, and. see inside someone's psyche and then get on a plane and fly off and go home and live my. normal life almost at a, a less intimate plane of existence. And, um, so clearly, you know,

and the other joke I've made over the years is like, oh, what makes me good at my job. is also what makes me bad at life. So, so for me it's, I think, and I think if you ask my friends, they might say, you know, be like, oh yeah. You know, Louis's a good guy. I hope they would say that, but, but. they'd also might say like, he's a little bit absent. Like he's a little bit, um, I, I don't feel I'm an especially attentive or present friend and, and, and you know, I'm.

not, you know, some people are really gifted at friendship. Oh God. They like really get, they're there and they think about and they make arrangements. And I don't make really, I'm, I'm not very good at social arrangements. All these sort. of boring things that are the qualities that are really the stuff of life. Like, um, just. getting together, reaching out. Are you okay? How's, it's been a while since I saw you. I wanted to, let's meet up, let's, which in. general, this is a crush generalization, but I think women are slightly better at than.

men. And I think that's been one of the many gifts my wife has given me is actually involving. me in life. Like in a, just a normal. So neurotypical way, whereas I, my tendency would be to sort. of disappear into my slightly in cell-like shell, you know, of, of kind of in a metaphorical. shed of kind of counting. I, the joke in making my book is like, you know, separating my collection of screws and.

nails into their different jars. You know what I mean? Like that for me is like that, you know, a lot of guys would be like, yeah, that sounds like heaven to have two hours. to organize my shed, you know, and not, and not realize that you're missing out on the. tapestry of life. So I plead guilty to whatever that is. Maybe that's just being a man I can, I can relate. to. It's funny, I was having this conversation yesterday with my friends where they were. all saying, yeah, Steve doesn't like to socialize. You know, I, I would rather sit upstairs for. seven days on my own working than, like, someone said to me, this, you meet all these wonderful.

people in this podcast, and you, and it's such a wasted opportunity that you don't text. me, Hey, let's go for a coffee. Yeah. And it's just outside of my nature. My nature is to sit alone on my laptop and. work. Yeah. And so again, my girlfriend, my partner is the opposite. Yeah. So she's dragging. me. And so I really, I think it's quite a common dynamic, you know, not bragging. Two. nights ago I was a GQ man of the year. I see. Thank you. Applause. Thank you. Um, uh, I was one of the honorees and, um, so there.

was a, like, there was a, a banquet, like a, a posh dinner catered by Heston Blumenthal. And, you know, stormy was gonna be there. Mo Sal, Leah Williamson, the footballer. I. didn't get an invite. I must have. So it's not just men now, it turns out, uh, extraordinary. list of like Andrew Garfield, an extraordinary list of incredible people. And it wasn't even an awards bank. It wasn't even like the bs, like where you sit and sit.

through the speeches and then at half past 10, when you're starving, hungry and quite. tired, you sit down, eat your food. This was like a banquet. Banquet where you just sit. around and have a delicious meal and then a few people pop up and say a few words between. starter and the main course. So it was like, and it wasn't even that, it was like maybe a couple hundred people, like. quite small as these things go. But the point is, is before on the evening of, I was like, I don't wanna go. And I said to, I knew I had to go, but I said to Nancy, my wife, I.

was like, I am not feeling this. She's like, what is it? I said, I just, I can't. You know, I dunno, I just feel really anxious. And she's like, but you're not even giving a speech, are you? You know, cuz sometimes it's that like, what. if we win and I have to give a speech? Or, or you're worrying about whether you're gonna. win. It's like, I knew I was an honoree and I knew I wasn't gonna say any, I wasn't gonna. have to give a speech. And it was just the idea of, of having to talk to people, like in a relatively high. wa high wattage setting. So you think like, I don't wanna be wandering around like a blithering.

idiot. So there's a sort of little stress that sits alongside that. But there was no. real reason on paper why I shouldn't have been thinking, well this is gonna be amazing. This is gonna be a night. I remember my whole life, you know, and I attempted to adjust. my mindset, you know, using kind of Paul McKenna like, or Uri like, you know, just visual. Like, think about what this is. This is gonna be, no one's expecting anything of you. This. is a chance to sit down with some amazing people and have fun.

But nevertheless, for the first kind of hour I was there, just thinking. I kept just saying, oh, and Nancy were like, what's the matter? So I think that's just for what I think that's. in me. It's probably in a lot, a lot of people. And, um, you just deal with it. But, you know, why, why should that be the case? I, I don't really know why. Is it something that comes with a cost and is it something you want to change? Uh, if. you're being really honest, if I could dial down, I think sometimes I think I have changed.

It actually is the first thing to say, because there were times in my life where I said no. to things just because I thought that's gonna be a bit like, you know, I did the maple dancing. in the end and it went fine. I did learn, this will surprise you. But I did learn how to read and, you know, despite. all the anxiety I had about doing that. And so, and then as life went on, I think there. were times when I said no to things, opportunities, which probably just because the idea I, I.

was asked to go on David Letterman's. Chat show. Um, when it was on cbs, this would've been in around 2001. And I said, no, cuz I. thought that's just gonna make me anxious. And looking back on it, I probably wish I'd. done that. Why would that, why would that make you anxious? I find the chat show experience, or, or not, especially, I mean, I've done it a few times and as life goes on, it seems, you know, the idea of public speaking or, you know, when I first got into tv, it, it.

was like, why am I doing this? This is not me. Like, this is not what I was cut out for. This is not something that I. aspired to do. And it sounds really, you know, the whole notion of it feels, um, intimidating. and, and, and just a bad fit. And, and nevertheless, I knew that, you know, just briefly, like. I was working magazines as a, um, as a journalist in New York and, um, That's, I, I, I aspired.

to be a, a TV writer, partly as a way of sort of avoiding comparison with my dad. Not directly, but I suppose that was in my mind was like, I wanna write and be creative, but I know I'll never write books. You know, I didn't feel like I wrote, when I wrote it. didn't feel, especially as though it came as easily as I, as it should, you know, it's. hard when your dad, like, I relate to people with famous parents, like, you know, people.

like, you know Jacob Dylan? Yeah. Who's Bob Dylan's son. I dunno why I reached for that comparison, but Jacob Dylan, that track one headlight. Do you remember that one? No. Okay. For people who know, they. know , you know, it's a great track. It was a huge international hit, but his dad's Bob. Dylan. That's a painful, maybe not painful, but that's an extraordinary. Legacy to be born into and in a, in a related way, like I was conscious of my dad, his name. as a writer really meant something. And that it was, um, that if I was to attempt to write.

something, it was gonna be a case of very likely kind of falling short, at least in. my own mind. But the idea of writing in television was, was less, I felt would set, would, wouldn't. invite the same comparisons. Plus, I used to watch TV and I like tv and there was something about the democratic kind. of nature of television, in fact, that everyone watches tv. I thought, well, that's a way. of working in a medium that will connect with people. And so it was in the mid nineties.

TV was, uh, in a kind of a mini golden age. The Simpsons was on, Seinfeld was on, friends, was just about to come on the, there were. all these amazing. TV shows. Larry Sanders was another one. Did you want to connect with. people you studied history at Oxford? Yeah. And as someone that is, appears to be a bit. of an introvert by nature from what you said about your experiences. I've got double. I have a duality where I'm partly shy, introverted, and then partly outgoing.

and extrovert. So with your writing and with the TV writing was your, and with the magazine. writing, I know you did some stent at, um, spy and was it Metro in Boston? Metro In San. Jose. In San Jose. San Jose, California. Was your, was your objective and the, the thing that you found fulfillment in your work. from, was that connecting with people? Um, or was it just, I don't, I think I connected. with people not to sound, um, you know, oxymoronic or whatever it is. No Tologist by connecting.

with people, like, in other words, like I always find. I do my best. Connecting sounds a bit weird. Yeah. Face to face. I mean, maybe at one level, but in the end I think I was just trying to do good work and get approval. Like maybe. more than connection, like just trying to sort of get an A at work. Do you know what. I mean? Like, so I would feel good and think like, oh, I got 10 outta 10 on my article. or on my piece of writing my, my film review. And then if people said to me that was really good, that was like getting a, you know, like.

you got a good review or whatever. You know, people, people say like, you, you did a good. job. Then it, it was maybe a way of, um, it just a little, it's just a little, uh, spurt. of whatever that is. Like, just kind of pleasure, you know, you just worthiness a worth, feeling. worth, you know? I don't want, I, I think I've got a healthy, relatively healthy sense of self-esteem, but. nevertheless, I, I think I, I, I, I, whether I require it, I enjoy. , you know, getting,

I got a, I got a series out at the moment. This isn't my attempt to segue into the promotional. portion of this interview, but nevertheless, here we are. I got a, um, I've got a series out at the moment on iPlayer called Louis through interviews. and we had one that went out a few days ago where I interviewed Bear Grills an alumness. of this very podcast. I listened to your interview with him, by the way. Thank you. In preparation. and, um, and when it went out, for whatever reason, I think, cuz I thought it was a good.

show and I hoped it would, I hoped it would get a good reception. I was on. Um, I thought I'm gonna go on Twitter and see what people were saying and it was. surprisingly quiet and then I felt a bit like, um, okay, now I'm going to, I'll try at Louis. through, I'll try hashtag Bear Grill. I tried a few different search terms and then I suddenly. I had a vision of my, you know, you get a vision of yourself like, Oh, while I've become.

that grubby guy, kind of like, it's so of sad. It's like trying to fish for fish for approval in the vast swamp of the Twitter verse, right. Casting my line and nothing much is coming back. And I thought, well, and then one that. came back, I looked at it and said, just watched Louis through's interview with beg rules. Wow. It was hella boring, . And I was like, I just caught a boot. And then I was like, well, that's what you get. And by the way, it isn't boring. No,

it's not boring. The point I was trying to get to was, um, then couple days later I got. a review, great review in the Times, just sort of pointing all the things about it that. I knew to be really, really good. It was sort of the perfect review, you know, rave saying. like, this is fresh, it's new, it's different, it's fun, it's entertaining, it's revealing. And I felt really good. And on one level I was like, Because before that, the first three.

episodes, I hadn't really checked Twitter. I thought, I don't, I'm not that guy anymore. I don't really care. Like I make the shows and I know they're good. And the ones that. aren't good, I know none of these is, is a clunker. They're all solid. And, and then here, and then I suddenly thought, oh, I went back to, I regressed into being the needy sort of, um, the needy, insecure person, which is, you know, and, and that guy is always there, by the way. I think a lot of people could. probably relate to that, which doesn't, it doesn't mean, you know, which, which is, um,

which is fine by the way. But I suppose to, to your point, um, or, you know, in all the kind of work in the work. I do is not like, is it an urge to connect? Like it's an urge to do good work, and then. it's nice for that to be recognized. And as much as I, I could, I'd like to pretend. I. don't really care whether people like it or not. I do care. Actually, do you know what's funny is my team are very honest with me and we're in the car. the other day and I believe it was Holly. Holly and my team who might be upstairs now,

and I said, um, we were talking about your Louis's coming on the podcast. I said, oh, he's got the new series out where he interviews people. And I turned to, I think it was Holly, it might be someone else. So sorry if it's someone. else. Um, I turned to them and said, how is it? Because they'd seen it before me and they. went, it's actually really good. Oh, nice. That's what they said to me. And they would. be, and they would be so honest with me. They went, it's actually really good. And then they explained why it good cause me, here's my thing like that actually, like, isn't it, it's actually like, it's actually really good. But see when I, because I've,

I'm a very glass half empty kind of guy with respect to praise. Yeah. So what I'm hearing. there is it's action surprising. Yeah. I'm hearing like, cuz I'm hearing is that a surprisingly, in which case, why would that be surprising? I can, I think I can assert white would be surprising. Um, I think that, The generation. Holly's in. Mm-hmm. , they don't watch, um, shows like that on BBC one, typically. Mm-hmm. . And so BBC two, but BBC two, sorry, on the bbc should I say. Yeah. Um, but that's what.

I got from it is her generation who are like 22, 23, who spend a lot of time on like TikTok. and Instagram and these other platforms. I think, um, it was, I was actually quite surprised. That's fine. And I think that's. probably true. And also I think in my world, if I'm gonna talk about stuff, you know, we, there's a troll in all of us, right. And, and, and in general it's more enjoyable to. talk about stuff and dunk on stuff because it's shit. Right. Like, and that sounds horrible. I'm slightly oversimplifying. I think you're right.

There's a lot, especially in the, in the journalistic or in, in, so the media village, it's like, did you see it? Nah. Yeah. That was rubbish, wasn't it? And there's a sort of reassuring. feeling of like, yeah, yeah. Let's all, let's all give it a kicking. Yeah. So, so when you acknowledge that something's good, you're almost saying like, I'm going. grudgingly acknowledge that. That was good. Yeah, I think you're correct. You know, that's. a bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. I think pretty much everything, especially when, cuz we probably. consider ourselves working in the media industry. Sure. So for the team to go, it's actually really good. Yeah. Um, and then she went on.

to explain to most things aren't that good? They're not, I mean, most things are fine. Yeah. But most things are like only about as good as they need to be. Do you know what. I mean? Especially in the interview format. Like how many other ways can you create an. interview format that is original and inspiring. And that's also what I got from her was like, she was talking to me about the way the format. was constructed. Yeah. I think we pushed things forward a little bit. Like it's not a paradigm. shift. Like we haven't completely flipped the script as they used to say in hip hop.

circles. But it is, you know, we, we worked on the grammar. We tried to do things a little differently. So we created a, for one of a better term. format, you know, that allowed for. Elements of, um, actuality just being silly, having. fun or being in live settings where the unexpected could happen, but also bits of, um, uh, conversation. that would be going to places that were quite deep.

So, yeah, thank you for that. And that, that that's, that's, thank you for paring that. one TV I, I read when you were 18, I think maybe 16, um, if someone had said to you that. you would end up in tv, you would've, you would've been sort of perplexed at how that. would've, the steps that it would've taken to get you down. Yeah, that's definitely true. You, you are in San Jose, I believe at the time. Um, is. that where SPY was? The magazine? No, I was that Boston Rewind. Just to rewind, and I. also wanna mention one other thing, which is, cuz we talked a little bit about studying.

and, and I feel as though whatever that is, that work ethic has stood me in good stead, but I don't feel that that's, I often think there's. A very understandable, sort misconception about the level of importance of, of academic. work. You know, that whole staying school kids and, you know, we were talking, I think, off, off mic about Mr. Beast, the YouTuber and, you know, the media landscape we're in. now. It, it would just, it's just simply not correct to say that, oh, the path lies through.

academic work. Right. And I was talking to my cousin, Justin Thru, oddly enough, he says, Thoreau, who's. an actor, he's a director, uh, a writer. He wrote Tropic Thunder, iron Man Two, he's been, he's also like high profile Hollywood actor. I interviewed him for my podcast. I'm not. trying to plug, that'll be weird to plug one podcast on another podcast. But he, and he, he was like someone who struggled in the academic setting. Like he, he had adhd. He. Flunked out of a school. He went to another school where they recognized his special needs.

But the point is that I sort of think so many as I think we undervalue, there's a tendency. to undervalue those parts of, of, um, of life that that lead to success, that that exists. I mean maybe you, maybe I'm sort of out of line here cause it sounds like you are all. over this, but those parts of like, the parts of life that helped me become whoever I am. part of its academic part of its, was almost inimical to academic success. It was the part. that was free spirited and naughty, and that was bunking off school and seeing movies and,

and, um, or, or getting me in trouble and, and, and, Whatever that is, and it's hard. to really bottle it and know quite what it is. You know, there, there is something that I struggle sometimes with over discipline, right? And, and or a sense of like doing well in controlled settings. But actually it's that. you need the yin and the yang of both. And, and when I went out and did stuff that was. successful on tv, like working, doing my first segments at a show called TV Nation, having.

been hired by Michael Moore when I was 23, partly like a work ethic, you know, doing. preparation and being, you know, turning up on time, as they say is like 90%. Of the battle, but actually then being just sort of allowing those creative juices sort. of to, to, you know, whatever that mysterious quality of, um, humor and connectivity, just.

being silly and disruptive, like those are really valuable. They say don't, they, they. say conformity is great to succeed in school, but it's not great to succeed in life. There's, maybe that's what it is. You kind of need to be to conform once you get out, you sort of do. And I think, and, and I wanna come back to your question, but, but I do. think that that's also, you know, three, four years ago I started a company and there's. a part of me that's overly. So overly conventional, you know, and, and as a result seeks out unconvention.

in my work. And that's positive, you know, it means like, I love spending time with people who feel. like they give free reign to the darkest, weirdest impulses that I think to an extent. we all share, but keep repressed, you know, whatever those happen to be. People involved. in sex work or, or, or people involved in religious cults or, or hate groups. And, and that, that's sort my stock in trade is talking to those people. Cuz I feel as. though I kind of get it. Like, I, I understand that those, that, that's part of the full. compliment, as horrible as it might sound to say, like, we all have like unacknowledged.

and secret, um, impulses that, you know, we, we have sort of civilized, uh, uh, in, you. know, and, and, And repressed into, into, you know, we've inhibited them into our souls. so that we can function and, and not go to be sent to prison or whatever, be canceled. But, um, for me, like I, I, I sort of, I, I do it to a fault, to the point where I worked. at the BBC in-house, in BBC Studios, just cuz I sort of liked the idea of the structure.

Like, I'm a company man going to the factory and, you know, building my tv. programs but. not owning them. And cuz I just thought, you know, and I like going to the can, I used. to love working at TV Center cuz it felt like going to the factory and then eating at the. TV center canteen. You know, it just felt, felt like comfortable. You know, my, my granddad worked at the London. Water Board his whole life. He had one job that he started when he was 18 and, and finished. when he was, whenever 65. You know, to some extent those were the times. But that temperament.

is slightly in me the whole time. When, when, when he left, they gave him, um, some, a box of cutlery, you know, that was. the, you know, you worked here for 47 years here. Here's your silver, your silverware. in a walnut case. And it was on a, it was in private place, like not pride of play, it wasn't on the mantle piece. But you, you used, we used to look at it. That's what grandpa got when he'd worked at the Metropolitan Water Board for 47 years. You know, you sort of reverence it. Like, and it was only used for special occasions. And, and there's a little bit of that in me. And so when I finally. Went outside the BBC.

and set up a company three or four years ago. I'm sure most of your listeners probably have their own, although many of them, not most, but many of them will have their own companies or will be fully cognizant of what it takes. to make it in the sort of the world of, of, of free market and entrepreneurship. But for. me, that was just absolutely not my lane and it was my wife who pushed me to do it. And so that was a case of me needing to break out of whatever I was doing and say, do you.

know what? Whatever you think that is risky or mysterious, or, um, you know, a bit a spy, you know, like just a little bit of judgment. Like, oh, I don't wanna be one of the YPI. guys. Like we just had an ipo. I've just got my first Maserati like that cuz I, I'm Antagon, you know, I've complete that, that whole mindset. I feel like I'm alienating maybe some of your listeners. Like, it's not my mindset, like. I'm just like, I, I almost valorize the opposite of that. You know, to an probably, um, an.

extent that's sort faintly unhealthy. Like, like I don't want be the guy, I don't want. a flash car. I don't want flash clothes, I don't want anything. I wanna be anti flash. Right? Like my watch, you can see this. My wife was saying to me. last night, um, you know, maybe time for a new watch. This is a Casio, whatever that. one is. It's a F nine one W. These costs like 10 pounds, 15 pounds you can get them at, at Argos. Do you, have you ever seen that watch before?

I have. That's, I was listening to a, about Andrew Tate on the way here, a podcast. You. know who Andrew T is? Yeah. What's your, anyway, so Andrew Tate feels like he's, that guy reduced. to its quintessence where he is, like, one of his catchphrases was, um, people say, why. have you got a, you know, green Bugatti? Do you know this meme? And what does he say to them? He says, um, well, he says, he says, what colors? I say. to them, what colors your Bugatti? , right? That's him in a nutshells, like unapologetically.

troll, like ostentatious displays of wealth and arrogance, right? So I'm the anate. You. can put that on my, you put that on my gravestone? The anate. So I'm like, I don't give a fuck about your Bugatti. I think it's embarrassing. that you have one. No offense if you, no, I don't. I don't have a car, but, you know, fine. You know, and that's kind of a joke. Like that's, I, I, my point really is that. that's something I need to keep an eye on, you know, cuz actually ostentatious, uh, Almost.

like ostentatious humility is its own poison. Like, like why are you so wedded to the idea of having a shit watch? By the way, it's not. a shit watch. It's completely reliable and it's, I've never had it. The only thing that. goes on it is the strap. So, so I've got one that's got a, a, you can replace the strap. after about five years. The strap goes. I've got two of these. I'm not bragging . I've got one, I've got my, I've got my spare one in case I can't. find this one. Anyway, last time my wife said it might be time for a new watch. I've gotta. embrace, I'm trying to lean into being the guy that isn't showing off about what a lack,

what a not show off he is. You think I've lost the thread? I haven't. The point I'm getting to is that, um, so I needed to start a company and not, because it's, it's oddly ing after a while. Like there's nothing, there's nothing cool. about making. Hundreds of hours of TV and not owning any of it. Right. That's just me. being a little bit of a chump. And partly that's, you know, there's a quid pro quo I. suppose.

Like, well you don't get stressed, you turn up, you're making things for a public broadcaster, you're getting a decent salary for sure. But people would say like, why? You know everyone. else, so who do you work for? It's like, well, I'm bbc, I'm on contract. I work from contract. to contract three years at a time. Like really? You don't have your own company? Like, no, why not? Like, you know, cuz everyone. else does, like Jamie Oliver or Hug Furley Witting Stall or, or you know, whoever you. care to mention. Any presenter, bear Grills, bear Grill of any longevity, um, would, would.

be making their own shows. You know, it's, it is a, it is a no-brainer. And I was like, oh, I guess I just, I'm fine doing my, I'm a creature of habit, you know, that was sort of what, I'm just sort fine. I don't wanna mess around with it. And then. having done it three or four years ago, like, yeah, I probably should have, should have. done it a bit earlier. But it, it's, so, so it's that thing of, um, the point which now. landing on the point sounds a bit vanilla, was that you can sort of get in being a creature. of habit, being sort of embrace into whatever that, you know, your own sense of self as,

um, risk averse and, um, conventional. Sometimes, you know, I needed to challenge myself in order to discover that there was. a, you know, a world out there that was sort of more creative, more lucrative, more fun, more adventurous. That's happened a few times in your life where you've kind of taken a. leap into the unknown, which is actually quite surprising. Having, you know, described yourself as a creature of comfort. Even habit Have habit, sorry. Yeah. Um, what, no, I don't mean to habit, like I'm trying to, like tell you off.

I can say habit, maybe of comfort as well, although, you know, but habit is really what. I meant. Yeah. Creature of habit. Cause I, cause I was reading about when you made that. transition from being a writer to a TV presenter. Yeah. And. I, I, I remember writing some quotes about how, um, how like there was one about. feeling like an imposter a little bit to some degree and getting on that plane to go and. interview these Christians. Once Michael Moore had sort of, um, put you at front and central. country, that's, and thinking, what the fuck am I doing here?

Yeah, that was, I remember it vividly. It's extraordinary as you go through life, so much. disappears, but there are times when you realize you're at this mo sort of momentous moment. I suppose often it's high stress moments. Which, which is really revealing, isn't it? Because actually risk avoidance, you know, that, that almost like, God, my mind's whizzing. now, but that bent of my idea, like the greatest happiness, you know, in philosophy, there's. a utilitarian ideal that's supposed to be the, the metric for how you judge whether.

an action is good or not. And it's like the greatest, will it cause the greatest happiness of the greatest number. of people? But then if you unpack that, like, well, what is happiness like? Well actually. how do you measure it? And how do you measure? Is it happiness in the moment? Is it happiness. as it's recollected over time? Is it, um, a happiness that, you know, um, you can, uh, that will spread to other people or, you know, it will exist for a hundred years. Uh, and, and so actually there's a, there's a sense of fear and discomfort that will subsequently.

lead to sense of, of, of, of triumph or self-satisfaction. I, you know, is it happiness? Is it, I don't. know, like that fear is such a, such a blunt instrument for attempting to me measure reality. And, um, and in general, fear, which you would equate with unhappiness can very often be. what ends up creating the conditions for real achievement. And I, I, I, I, I remember sitting on this plane having been given a job by Michael Moore.

as a presenter on, you know, TV Nation. It was a network TV show on nbc. One of the, there were then three networks in America. I was 23. I, I was, as I say, awkward in every. apparent way, disqualified for being a, a, a correspondent on a network TV show I was. in, I was having, I was in the union like, you know, as probably still the case, but. definitely then, TV shows were unionized to an extent in America further than they would.

be in the uk. So I would be, I was in the Writer's Guild of America, uh, as a result of being hired. And so they were required to fly me business class. Like I don't think I'd ever been in. business class. And somehow that contributed to my imposter syndrome. My sense like, I. shouldn't really be here. I remember sitting there thinking like, this is all kinds of. wrong. Like, I dunno what I'm doing here. I dunno why they think I'm qualified to do this. And.

nevertheless, this is what's happening. And, and I was that it was a segment that, uh, was about, you know, TV Nation was a kind of satirical, fact-based comedy show where. you went out and slightly made fun of people with to prove a political point or to sort. of make some sort of social point. So I was interviewing religious cults about when the end of the world was going to happen. So it was sort of like slightly cheeky, um, , irreverent take on religious fanaticism. or religious weirdness. So the eyes, like, I wanted to know, so when will the world end?

Is it on a Tuesday? How can I get prepared? And I was sort of in a wide-eyed way. Oh no. Like, will there be, you know, and are the. spaceships going to land? And what will the aliens look like? But I was just incredibly. conscious of, of thinking like, why have I been given this huge, um, it felt like a big. slab of pressure and, and sort of licensed to fail very publicly and very embarrassingly. And, and I also knew I wasn't, you know, but I'm also wasn't so disconnected, connected.

from reality that I didn't think like, well, it's a huge opportunity. Like my, and my, my girlfriend at the time was very supportive and was like, you know, you, you should, you, you can do this Louis. Like, you're, you're really good with people. And, and, um, and, and you know, don't, don't, don't worry. Like you, you can, you've, you've. got this, you can handle it. When you try to talk yourself out of it. I was, um, it. wasn't like I ever thought I, um, I, I won't do it. Like I, it, it was no question for.

like, I'm gonna do it. Like, I have to do it, but I, I, I sort of didn't want to do. it. Does that make sense? Has that been typical of your life where, you know, you've gotta. do it, but it feels kind of painful and anxious as you approach the challenge, even like with. starting your own company? Yeah, I think so. Like, there's times when I, you know, I suppose. that's where the work ethic part fits in or whatever, like that part of, if, if you commit. to doing something, like I'm very, I, I hate to let people down.

Like if I commit to doing something, um, or turning up on time or I still struggle with. that part. Like, especially as you're in the, when you're in the public eye or you're in. demand and people write and ask for things, I still, you know, will you come to our school. and give a talk or I do. I. I, I'm, I'm a, I'm very agreeable in that sort of technical. sense. I'm, I'm very inclined to agree to do things and that can get you in trouble because you.

find you're over, I, I find I over agree and make unrealistic commitments, like, oh, that'll. be fine, and then I'll do that, and then I'll do that. And then you look at it and you're. like, there's just no way on earth I can do all of these things. So I try and ring fence my commitment levels, but that's not easy. So, but in a, in a positive. way, um, that sense of like feeling like I need to show up, having agreed to do it, having. been offered a, um, an opportunity, even though it might sound enormously stressful, like.

I would never, I think this may be a world in which I never got into tv. I dunno quite what I did end up doing. The thing that it makes me reflect on. The extent. to which we are conditioned and groomed into behaviors that can be healthy or unhealthy. or positive or not positive. And I think that's the part of the libertarian ethos that I have. a huge, well, among others I have a huge issue with is like, oh, just let people be themselves. People need help to fulfill their potential, right? That idea that, oh, you know, you can.

pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Like I, with all the advantages I had of like a first. rate private education, supportive parents, e even I like didn't see myself as someone. who would have various kinds of success. I didn't feel that that was in me for whatever. reason. But other along the way, people among Michael Moore, um, people at the BBC who then commissioned. me to do my own series off the back of TV Nation, when I got commissioned to do weird.

weekends, my wife Nancy, other people along the way have sort of, um, seen things in me. that. I didn't see in myself even this interview series going out at the moment. I, I never, it sounds awful. I never aspired to have like a TV interview series. Like it. was something that would be mentioned from time to time. And I would say like, that's. not really me. You know? I like going out, like my, my comfort, like my happy place really.

is in terms of tv. Like, oh, go and be in a prison for two weeks and film the inmates, or go to a mental hospital or go to a, um, a brothel, like I made a film about a brothel. and just hang out there for two or three weeks and just be afl. That, that to me is, it sounds awful, but that's, that's like pure bliss, like work-wise. But the idea of, oh, we'll have a formal sit down interview and you'll talk to someone. famous who probably only has a couple of hours for you, and then we'll piece it all together.

and do shoot. I, I never thought like that's really something I want to do, but. Patrick Holland, who was then in charge of BBC two, had listened to my podcast and said. like, I really think this would work. Some, not this exactly, but there's a, there's, there's a TV show that takes aspects of this that could exist, that would, you know, involve. you talking to people. And I, and I remember you would think like, oh, that would, that. must have been exciting. Like someone saying like, I wanted to do it. This TV format involves partly chat show,

partly documentary. I just thought, I didn't think like that's something I'll never do. I did think, like, I just felt very blank about it. I know that's horrible, like people. are going to listen to this and throw up in their cards, but I just thought that sounds. sort of stressful. I'm not sure if I really wanna do that. What, but I made myself, the point is I made myself. do it because I had a team around me who I knew expected me to do it and at some level. I had enough sense to recognize that it was an opportunity. These people that have seen.

things in you that you maybe couldn't at the time, have seen in yourself or seen roles. for you that you maybe at the time couldn't have seen for yourself? Michael Moore, Nancy, and then people at the BBC that you mentioned. Are you aware of what. they're seeing in you now in hindsight, what they see? Uh, yeah, I think so. And I think. in with, with a bit of time, I've been able to appreciate, um, that, I know it sounds. sort of glib and maybe even false, modest, but to, to appreciate that I have something.

to offer. Um, what is that? Well, um, it makes people feel uncomfortable when you're asking these. questions. No, no. I'm fine with it. Okay. Like, cuz I feel as though I can analyze it. Um, With the benefit of 25 years of doing it. I think it's something to do with like. a little bit of intelligence, a little bit of humor, a little bit of un sort of unor. awkwardness. Like I think that's part of it, like just being a little bit awkward, a little bit of,

um, sorts of authenticity or, or whatever that is. Like, just sort of feeling like, I think maybe that that same thing of not really fully chasing it or fully sort of needing. it, oddly enough is almost the, you know, it's like to go through the door, you have. to not want to go through the door too much. I dunno if that's even, that's definitely not a saying and it doesn't actually make. any sense, but whatever sense you can make of that contradictory statement, if you want.

it too much, I think. There's, there's, then you need to step back and think about quite, it's almost like then you're not ready. Um, grasshopper, is that the right, is Grasshopper, is that what these are saying? Karate kid? Yeah. I think if I can talk, if I can call you a grasshopper, Steve. No. Um, you know, it's like, it's that feeling of, uh, you know, at the end of the day, , um, there's more important things in life and, um, I don't wanna overdo, I actually got lost.

in my metaphor a bit, but I think in the end it's like those different qualities of, of, of, of it's, it's that compliment of qualities and then just luck. But I don't think luck really is a quality, but alongside, I'm now at the position we're. having done my job for long enough. It's put me in a slight, I think there's loads of people. who could be, uh, whoever I am, like occupy that cultural place that I'm in. But, you.

know, and partly I've earned my place here, and partly I've been really lucky. But I think, you know, when you said something earlier, it also made me think of another. quality, which is to do with, which isn't a negative thing, which is that, you know, that idea like you, when you were told, you know, when I was told that, oh, you know, Patrick, you know, is quite keen to do some sort of talk format or some interview thing. where you're on tv and I, and I just think like, well, I'm not really sure. I, I, I think one of my, cuz it goes back to what you were asking earlier about what.

is the downside of these various qualities. Like, I do think there's a term Anne Hedonic. Have you ever heard that term? No. It just means, I think it's a clinical term, but it. sort of, it sort of means averse to pleasure or lacking in pleasure. Like, there's a part of me again that, um, I think my wife has helped me with is that. I, I kind of sense that I'm not always connected to pleasure. Does that sound weird? Like I, I, you know, sometimes I, I sort of drift through life and, and I have to sort of stop.

and remind myself I think because I, I sort of. I, I tend to see downsides and, and I, I'm working on that and, and I, I really do. Like, I, I sort of need to, it's really odd, like I've won three Bs, not bragging. Uh, this. just came up and I, and I mention it's a fact. And, um, and when you win a, after you've. got a lot of awards up there. I'm not seeing a b. Maybe those are just I presented after to someone else. Some of them ones a camera.

I'm not sure that camera is an award or you can do a cutaway of that later. You know, it's odd. Like I, my main thing on winning, each time I won a ba I first thought was being. Oh shit. Now I have to give an acceptance speech. Right. And I have to get up there and, um, you know, in high, like, the pleasure, you. know, you get a little pleasure over the subsequent years when you can bring it up again and again. as I like to do. But actually it's really hard. Like I, I, most of the time when I get.

good news, sometimes I don't even, I can't notice the good news. Does that sound really weird? No, that makes sense. I don't know if that make, thank you. for saying that. I think you're being polite. Yeah. I I'm not someone who, I'm not someone. who, um, is, who automatically feels connected to the good things that happen to them. How. does one remain happy if they have that sort kind of default to, oh my God, where am I. gonna put this third BA that I've won? Or now I have to do a speech. Well, that's awful. But you just sort of follow your routine,

you know? And actually, I am a happy person and, um, I, um, I, you know, I, I I take pleasure. in the simple things in life. You know, I, I like, um, doing stuff with the, you know, stuff with the family or, you know, really, I really am a terrible, I've made a simple. place. Like I, I like watching Match of the Day at the weekend. Like you say, like, yeah, okay, lots of people like doing that. What's like, but you know, like that, that for me is one.

of the small things in the week where I'm like, I know I'm gonna be happy for the next. 45 minutes or, or hour, you know what I mean? Or on, on a, on a Saturday night, I listen. to loose ends on Radio four, and often I'll be cooking and, and that's a small thing. And I get a little, a little tiny little boost out of, um, now I'm gonna enjoy it. Usually. I enjoy listening to it. There's little thing, I, I mean, I, I'm not, if someone says like,

you're gonna go on holiday to The Bahamas, I'm trying to imagine what a really big, happy. thing would be. I, I would normally experience that as stress and anxiety. I think that's quite normal though. Holidays are stressful, aren't they? Maybe you've got. your priorities in order, in fact, because you don't seem to be compelled or sat, um, or derive your happiness from like, the big wonky stuff from like the Lamborghini, the. spaghetti, the bfda. Yeah. What color's your spaghetti?

The GQ man of the year stuff. You seem, seem to drive it from the, the simple, intrinsically. fulfilling things like, you know, cooking, listening to a thing that's intellectually. stimulating. So maybe we're all, maybe everyone else is a weirdo and you're actually incredibly. normal. Don't know. I, I think there's more of us out there than you might think, but. maybe not. We're all trapped in our own brains. There's no way of measuring. I do think that, um, you know, I mentioned that when I saw that I got a nice review in the. That gave me like. a, as I said, it gave me a buzz. You cared about your work though. Yeah. You really cared.

about, well, that wasn't even about, I mean, I do care about the work. I mean, work is a big source of pleasure. Like in the sense of either being on location. and, um, being aware of it going well and getting into an almost like a mindset in an. interview of feeling like, yeah, this is all good. Like I feel connected. I feel, uh, cuz. it's a high stress in a way. I'm sure you have a little bit, if you have an interview. with someone, you feel like you've been trying to book it for a while, uh, the moment comes,

you're like, the next two hours are really important. You want it to go smoothly. You want it to feel like a revealing encounter. You, you. wanna be probing and insightful and intensive and immersed and not distracted, but also. thinking ahead and, and all of that's going on. And then it starts and then you feel like, oh, it's going okay. And then after you're like, that was a good one. And then in the edit you're putting it together and you're piecing things in like that. All. of those, the simple pleasures of. Of craft, you know, like it's really, and it is simple.

Like it's no great mystery, but that, that's, that's a big part of, um, of how I connect. with, uh, well my own happiness. How do you connect with people? So actually I wanted to ask you this for my own sort of learning. You've done this for. multiple decades. You've sat with people from every corner of the world. You have all of. these different experiences, and some of them are a little bit, you know, in the nicest. sense, a little bit out there. Mm-hmm. , I'm glad I landed with a PC word. Yeah. A little bit out there. Wonder what the non PC word . But you have, um, it was.

funny when I asked you about the qualities you have, I think you absolutely nailed it. And all of those make you incredibly disarming that almost like lack of intense seriousness. makes you really disarming individual. Um, how do you connect with people? How intentional is your approach to connecting with them mm-hmm. in your new interview series, but also just generally Some of it is stuff that. You know, I didn't, I just sort of came. by by accident, probably most of it, which is a thing, you know, natural curiosity, which.

I think you have a feeling of, um, of just, just wanting to know why people do the things. that they do. Right. And, and, and sort of getting out of your own way a bit, you know, in the sense, cause the question I get asked most often is like, what, how do you not get angry with. some of these people? Especially the ones who are sort of spewing hate or coming out. with stuff That's really objection. I find it slightly confusing question because I think.

that's so, is so far from what's in my head most of the time I'm genuinely think like, why, if, if it is someone, like say a neo-Nazi or someone involved in religious intolerance, I'm just so curious about what takes someone to that place. What, what, what's in their mind that to actually berate them. To give him a hard time or even. be particularly journalistically confrontational. That's not, that's not my default mode. That's.

so interesting. Cause I just think in life generally, those who like seek to un, even. in our personal relationships and romantic relationships, those that seek to understand, tend to build bridges. But if you seek to like, as you say, berate. Yeah. I get told off on this podcast a lot. on like Twitter and in the press, like, because I don't berate people. Mm-hmm. , like when. I had Matt Hancock here, I asked him the questions I really wanted to know, but I didn't, I didn't. come to berate him. No. He would've gone this. Yeah. The wall would've gone up had I done that. There's other ways of, and some people.

use a confrontational approach and that's fine. And then I think in general, um, you. know, there's many ways of doing interviews and I think probably, you know, I haven't. interviewed many politicians, and it's probably related to that, the feeling that they, they, they have their. They tend to have their guard up, they tend to be, uh, followed a strategy of, of attempting. to be as, as risk averse headline averse as as possible. And it's like those aren't the.

people I'm, I'm interested in people who are genuinely attempt, who feel like they've got. something figured out or, or, or are involved in a, in a world or a lifestyle or just some. situation that is, is either self-sabotaging or, or filled with angst. So in the end, I see it as not, I'm not trying to get one over on people. I'm not trying. to, I honestly, most interviews I see it as a, as a potential win-win. You know what I. mean? Like, I, I should think like, well, there's no, there's no reason why you shouldn't.

tell me the truth and you're involved in something that you're relatively open about. And, and I'll, I'll just assume that that's probably the case. Now, obviously you are. briefed, you've done as much research. As you can. But um, I think if you feel as though. you're coming from a position of, um, sort of shared inquiry, then that's contagious. Um, I think also I sort of tend to think, I think there's some part who thinks maybe.

other person's got it figured out and I haven't. Right. A level of humility so that when they say stuff, I'm genuinely thinking like, well, I guess maybe or may. Or they say something bonkers. I'm like, well, that isn't right. But I enjoy bumping up against that and I don't go in there thinking I'm gonna, I'm. gonna get this person. Like, I'm gonna get one over on them. I sort of feel as though, you know, you come in and you just sort of try and just see what's.

going on. You know, if, if people see like, You are attempting to wrestle intimacies from. them, that's never gonna go well. You just create the space and the sense of, of understanding. and allow them to sort of walk through that everything you've just described there, that. creating the space to like understand them, the humility, which is ultimately creates. that safety, which allows them to open up are the exact things that I know my partner.

wants from me in all of our interactions. Mm-hmm. . So because you've got that skill in your work, I'm here assuming that you also. have that at home mm-hmm. , is that correct? Um, I think I could work better on it. Like, I'm very aware that the skill set, I often think about the skill that I have in my work. of being supposedly a good listener and an empathetic. And present person. I, I slightly fail at, you know, kind of, I think a very, probably. normal way in, in my relationship. Like I, I have a very happy marriage and probably.

you should check that with Nancy. Uh, cause, well, I'm slightly reviewing my own restaurant. if I can use that metaphor. Um, and um, but yeah, on good reads, I gave my book a five. out of five and, and you know, I'm giving my marriage five out of five. Uh, so I think, I think I could do. I think I could, I could improve. This episode is.

brought to you by a Mercedes-Benz who recently got in touch to support the DI of a co. Thank. you. I'm a huge fan of their cars. In fact, I have one of my own, which is like an Office. on wheels, and they have an exciting wide range of cars that I'd love to tell you about. The Mercedes EQ is the luxury electric range of Mercedes-Benz, and it is available across. many models from the SUVs to the saloons, meaning they're ideal for all business needs. The innovative next generation technology found in all Mercedes EQ cars is really paving. the way for the electric car industry to make your electric car switch so much easier.

Mercedes-Benz has a service called Mercedes Me Charge. It's a subscription which provides. you with access to a wide network of charging stations across the entirety of the uk. The. app shows you the precise location and current availability and price at the selected charging. station of your choice. And this enables businesses to effectively plan their route ahead of their. journey. You can search Mercedes-Benz Fleet today to discover how the Mercedes EQ car range can. help your business get ahead and if you already drive a Mercedes E. Let me know how you find.

it. As some of you may know, Intel now one of our sponsors on this podcast, and I really. want to tell you about that vPro platform, which has totally changed the game for my. businesses. Let me tell you why. Intel vPro is built for businesses. It offers professional grade performance. and the most comprehensive security, which is something that is key for every entrepreneur. But the vPro platform also offers complete modern management capabilities, which simply. means that it's perfect for a hybrid working setup. Intel has spent over 15 years developing this technology with ecosystem partners, and I.

truly think it has the potential to move businesses forward, making your business journey far. more productive and efficient. So I really encourage you to go and find out more@intel.co. uk slash vPro and let me know what you think, because for me, I know it's added no end of. benefit to all of our systems and business continuity. In your autobiography on page 150, Are you serious? Yes. Gotta get through this, my life. in strange times in television. Do you know what I'm gonna say? Get it on audiobook for.

an extra chapter about Jimmy ssl. That's true. Speaking of page 157, and Jimmy, Jimmy SSL. on that page, your former wife, seeing as we're talking about relationships and reviewing. them, et cetera, she said, there's nothing real about you. Yeah. And to the point of Jimmy ssl, he also said something which was to the same vein. about insincerity. Yeah. Being your specialty. Yeah. That's good. I'm glad you brought that.

up, It's quite a, uh, telling sort of ringing piece of, uh, self exposure where, where, yeah, I, my wife and Jimmy several both make the same critique of my interpersonal qualities, finding me lacking in. basically authenticity, lacking insincerity. There's nothing real. about, well, the first thing is when a relationship is ending, um, you seize whatever you can.

to hurt the other person. I think it's, I think when someone you really love and you think really loves you, I mean, I, it was my girlfriend at the time, although we were married, and that's a whole other. complicated. But, but yeah, when that relationship was ending, I think there's a feeling of betrayal, isn't there? It's like, I thought we were, we were together forever and I trusted that. that would be the case. And, and here we are. Clearly you don't feel the same way. And, and so I'm in the position.

of, in her eyes being a kind of trait and inauthentic someone who didn't deliver on, um, on what was promised, although it wasn't promised. But what was, what seemed to be. implicit. Um, I think, uh, yeah, in, I mean, I remember where we were, like when the Jimmy. Sa, the first documentary I made about Jimmy Sa, when he was alive, when Louis met Jimmy,

not available on the iPlayer, um, but it's on the internet, you can find him. And um, I remember when we promoted it, um, before, I think it was when we promoted it, and he, he agreed to do an interview to promote it. And he, part of that was a profile interview. in The Guardian, and he was interviewed at the King's Cross in one of the, in the hotel. there, in one of the hotel rooms. And the guy from the Guardian came down, and I don't. even know why, I don't even know why it came up.

Um, but I made a joke and he said, ah, in sincerity your specialty, Gosh, you asking. me to get inside the mind of Jimmy Saville to think about what he meant when he criticized. me? I think he thought that, um, I think that journalistic role where, um, well, I think. part, I think you know what it is, is like the best const, there's two constructions.

I can put on that. One is just that in journalism you sort of required to inhabit this place of intimacy. Like actually, like, hey, let's do this and let's do that, and then afterwards you sort. of disconnect and sometimes that can feel jarring. I don't think actually that's what. he meant though. Like I think, I think maybe in some cases there's a, there's a pop journalism. that can feel slightly in sort of transactional where you're like, let's grow down on location. and, and have fun.

And, and yet if you looked at it. dispassionately. It's slightly cynical and calculating. It's. like, well, you're doing this for a TV program. And, and so there's a part that slightly feel. a little bit uncomfortable. I think really what he was talking about, there was a sense. of humor. Um, he was, he was calling out my sense of humor, which is sometimes an aspect. of it, which sometimes involves, um, almost self parody, like an element of where you. say something, uh, almost as a way of par sort of paring or satirizing your own.

This isn't gonna make any sense, Steve, but you satirize your own worst impulses. The. best example I can give is when I said to, um, when I was with Neil and Christine Hamilton, right. I did a program and they were accused of sexual assault and, and while I filmed. with them, and then I, uh, and they would become media circus and I carried on filming, and then they did a deal with the male on Sunday.

to sell their story. And I was interviewing them during all of this and I said to Christine, how, how much did the mail on Sunday pay for you, uh, for the interview? I was just curious. Cuz I knew probably they got 10 or 15 or 20,000 pounds and I was just curious. And Christine. said, I'm not gonna tell you. And I said to Christine, Christine, this is me. I'm not a journalist, I'm a friend. Like. you can tell me. And a lot of people gave me shit for it. Right? Like that what I said.

But in my mind, like that was a funny thing to say because quite obviously, um, I am a. journalist and whether I'm a friend or not is actually not established. I'm not clearly not a friend, but I'm not also clearly a friend. Right. So that was. kind of a funny remark because I was being nakedly insincere, which is fun. Like sometimes. to me, what's funny is saying, But not like sort of saying the wrong thing, saying the.

thing that sort brazen as a way of, of just sort of identifying the hypocrisy and having. fun with it. So I, I tend to think that, I think that's what Jimmy Saville meant was that sometimes. I would say things that would kind of definitively either untrue or quite clearly being said. because they were not clearly true. Anyway, that's way you asked that question. And then. when you ask a question about Jimmy Saval, I'm gonna give you a long answer because it's.

easy to be misconstrued. But I think that's what he meant. I think I'm in general, like fairly, um, a fairly. straight up person, but I also think that the tendency to believe your own bullshit. to drink your own Kool-Aid is, is almost universal, almost a precondition of life. Right. You. know, NTHA, the German philosopher. Uh, who I try not to quote too much cuz it makes me. sound pretentious, but he has, he has a couple of really good quotes on this where one is,

um, for the true deceiver, you know, for the most effective deceiver, first he must believe. his own deceptions. I, I'm mangling that quotation. But the idea that in order to con someone, you sort of. have to believe the most effective con artist is the one who believes their own con, you. know, you and, you know, like, or a seducer, like they say that about Casanova, you know, one of the most, um, notorious womanizers, um, in human history.

And they say that he actually, each time he seduced someone, he fell in love with them. You know, and maybe it's true for sales in general. Like, you really gotta, if you believe. in that. And, and so I'm, I'm fully aware that for me to say like I'm an authentic human. being and that my journalism relies on. A kind of true connection. I'm, I'm, I, you know, the little part me thinks like, I think, I believe that, um, I'm pretty sure I, I pre, I know I do believe that, but I'm not my own best reference on.

whether or not that's really the case. I neglected my personal life to focus on achieving some. sort of per professional success. The price of my lack of emotional mouse was paid by. those nearest and dearest to me. When did you get that feedback? Cause I remember the times in my life where I've got that feedback. from friends, family, romantic partners, and at first, sometimes we sometimes argue against. it. We, oh, fuck off. And then we walk away and we go, eh, this is true. I think I've. had that feedback in my relationships more or less, um, consistently.

Uh, and, and until maybe. Four or five, six years ago. Like, I think, again, I feel like. I'm reviewing my own book. Like, and now folks, I am happy and healthy and well adjusted, and I've arrived at a spiritual place of tranquility. But I do, I am conscious that I, um, all through.

my twenties and thirties, I saw my relationships as a, um, I think, I think the other phrase. I use is, is like I saw my relationships as sort of life support system for my kinda work. self. Do you know what I mean? Amen. I can relate instead of the other way around, you know? And so I would say like, well, I would take off when I went. Worked for Michael Moore. It was even back in, in the nineties. It was a source of friction in the relationship that,

like, without much warning, cause I became the fillin guy who, when other stake people. couldn't do segments or because they were, they found, weren't available, weren't stressed. about it, I, I'd be like, let's get Louie to do it. I, I, I did a lot of great segments just by being available at a moment's notice to fly. somewhere and, and never thought really, which I don't know that, that it was the wrong thing. to do at that time. We didn't have kids. Um, and so I'd be like, okay, I'm off for three.

or four days. And um, but as it went on and then as I had kids, um, and I was still doing. the same thing, sort of saying to my wife, well this is what I do. There's a chapter in my book called This is What I Do. You know, you knew when we married. that we would be, um, that I was a sort of globe trotting TV documentary maker. And she, um, She said, yeah, what did I do? When we, when we met, I was a TV director as well, and I've changed what I do and you need to change what you do.

Like, I don't mean to sound like she was being horrible about it, but her attitude was like, people make a, you need to make an adjustment to accommodate the fact that we now have two. small children. And how did you receive that? Um, at first I think I received that as. well. Not, not well. Like I, it didn't make me angry, but it, I, I was somewhat inflexible. because my attitude was, look, I was, because I went, you know, I, my parents had, my dad.

traveled a lot for work. My mom was a full-time TV producer and we had people at home op pairs. who, um, who made sure that when we got home someone was there and would make us a meal. And so I was like, well, we just need to get help. She said, I don't want, I don't want. Us to get help. I said, you, she said, well, I said, I said, you can do whatever you wanna. do. You, you can carry on working five days a week, six days. You can travel as well if.

you want. We just need to get help. And she's like, I don't, I want one of us to be here. and I want for some of that. I want it to be you. I don't know. Does that sound so you sound like me. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, well, I said, I, I guess I don't see it that way. So it became a bit. of an impa impasse for a while. And then, and then, um, well then we had another child. and um, and she said, well, now we've got a baby and two small children and you've agreed.

to take, to make sure you only work in the. And I was like, did I agree to that? And she said yes. And I couldn't remember it, but. I was like, well, she's probably right. And um, did you make rules? I read that you made. some rules, you had a rule that I wouldn't go away for more than two weeks. And um, and. actually for most of the time it was between sort of a week and 10 or 12 days. Are you flexible now? Well, I don't wanna make my wife sound like, I know there's some.

people I hear that and go like, well, you know, Louis was obviously bringing back the. bigger wage and, and so he should have been. I, I honestly think my wife was right about. most of that. I feel the same way about my partner and it's almost identical that it, it took me to find the right person to compromise my inflexibility where they, they made the. case to me that quality time and this relationship was actually an equal priority, let's say, to the work and with the right person, I was finally willing to bend.

And I was finally willing to, you know? Yeah. So, but I think it takes the right person. Yeah. To me it does. Anyway. Yeah. The right person, the right relationship, the right. life stage. Yeah. I also say that these interviews I'm doing, part of that is an agreement that. we made, well, even in agreement, a kind of agreement I made with myself in lockdown and. being around my kids are now 16, 14, and eight. You know, turns out older children in many respects need more management, need more sort. of parental presence in their lives than younger children. And so I said, well, maybe a way.

for me to travel less and not be taking off for, you know, two or three months a year, cuz you aggregate those two week trips or 10 and they add up to maybe a quarter or a. third of the year. And now I, I can, I can, my schedule is much more, I said like, if I do these interview. And we make TV shows in the uk and that there's a more controllable schedule, and I could. be around more. Nancy helped me set up the company. She's working more, I'm home more.

And so it's actually like, it turns out conforming to those expectations of family involvement. It is really positive. Like it can actually be a creative boon. You know? It's not the. enemy necessarily. It can be, it can make you a more rounded person that ends up being. beneficial. That's exactly what I used to think it was. I used to think it was the enemy. of my professional success, but I've come to learn that it may be the friend. It's the, yeah, it serves it. Um, you mentioned anxiety throughout this conversation. Now.

sometimes when people talk about anxiety, they talk about it as in. Like an emotion. They kind of, it's a flippant word to describe a situation where you're thinking a little. bit much, but then there's what people would describe as sort of real anxiety that kind. of crippling like, ooh, you know, that we've all felt that like insane and shakeable sort. of deep nervousness about a situation and worry. Which one are you referring to? Uh, I think the first one, I, I don't think I've ever. had a panic attack, for example. Um, I don't think I've ever had a feeling of, um, kind.

of in being incapacitated. I mean, I've had moments where I've had stage fright or moment, you know, that, that thing where due to you, you just get, even recently, like there's. been moments where you just get this sort tremulous feeling of nerves and your voice. starts to shake. Have you ever had that where you've been in a situation where, or sometimes it's just,

sometimes it, it's to do with you're in a. , you get into an argument with someone and. you get really upset and your voice goes a bit like this. Like it doesn't, you know, it was just kind of horrible. Uh, or sometimes it's just where you feel like you are. Like I've been once or twice in, in situations where, um, I just think, oh, this isn't going. well. And then your, your confidence goes. I mean, dunno if that's quite, that's sort. of nerves which are slightly different from anxiety. Anxiety, like where, but the anxiety.

I mainly mean is just a kind of sense of foreboding, a pervasive feeling of, um, of worry about. something that's gonna happen. Because one of the things we talk a lot about on this podcast is about mental health and. about how that affects people that are in high profile, high stress positions. What's. your, you know, mental health is a topic that kind of emerged in cultural relevance about. maybe a decade ago now. But when I was a kid I didn't understand it. I didn't know what that was. And I, I be honest, I think the stigma was very much my belief.

It was kinda like, people are crazy. Some people are crazy. Yeah. Um, what's your journey. been like with your own mental health? I feel really lucky to have, um, broadly speaking, good mental health. I also think what you're saying is exactly right and I think that there's. a kind of, there's a continuity, a blurring that exists so that, um, you, I think mental. health as opposed to mental illness is a good way of thinking about it like that. Cuz actually, um, we should all be striving toward, Being our best selves, we should be.

managing our anxiety. I think a lot of men especially fail even to recognize when their. mental health may not be as good as it could be. And the extreme end, you've got incapacitating. mental illness that requires a set of interventions, possibly medication, even sort of residential. rehab settings. But for, for, for the rest of us, it's just a, it's keeping an eye on, on how you're doing.

and, and no, you know, sometimes I notice my emotions from the outside. Like, I, I notice. that my voice is raised. I'm like, wow, I'm angry. You know, like, or, or, and even when. I'm sad I, or grumpy or whatever it is, I'm not the first really to see it. Or my wife will say like, are you in a bad place? I think we've been guilty of failing. to see mental health as a holistic condition. Like in other words, that. Your support network. needs to be in place. You need social inter, these are really basic, but you need social.

interaction. You need, you need, um, exposure to things outside of work. You also need endorsement and approval in work. And all of these things need to be sort. of pulling in the same direction. And there may be people in your life who are undermining. you and you may need support from people to nudge you in the right direction. But, you. know, not to sound really bland about it, I feel as though I've, um, you know, through,

through sort of my wife's so perceptiveness and her ability to sort of see how, how just. so involved me in life a bit more that that's, um, that's kept me in a good place. We have a closing tradition on this podcast, which, Which is the previous guest writes. a question for the next guest. Oh, wow. Okay. And the previous guest, you don't get to know. who the previous guest was, but the previous guest has written a question, um, for you.

not knowing it was for you, and they said, what is your opinion on hallucinogens? Hallucinogens? Um, I, my opinion is, I think, um, you know, if you, if, if you feel like. you are, if you're of age like 18 plus, I dunno how your younger listeners are, you. know, maybe even maybe slightly older. Um, and you feel like you've got solid mental. health. I think it's a, it's not a bad avenue to go down.

It's not something I've massively dabbled in. Um, I've noticed, I dunno about you, I, in my social settings, um, it seems to be mushroom oil. It's something that's increasingly. being used. Uh, And I think actually in a, you know, in a, and I think we're all aware. of the slight, there's sort of dissonance between our levels of acceptance of alcohol. and then the sort of relative unacceptance of things like whether it's marijuana or mushrooms.

and mushroom oil. Like, I'd like to see that leveled out. Like I'd like to see as it is in California and. elsewhere, I'd like to see cannabis legalized and, um, I think mushroom oil, without giving. too much. Could be really positive. from what I understand. Louis, thank you so much for your time today. Pleasure so much.

from you for, for so many reasons. Um, and your new documents on the bbc, BBC two, and. on I Player Lou through interviews is incredible. Yeah, you're six them out there, they're right. now. Um, they're incredible and you're interviewing some incredible people that are, are being. very vulnerable and open with you. But thank you for the inspiration as well. You're someone that I've watched for the, for decades. Thanks Steve. And that's given me a life full of enjoyments and thank you. for coming and doing this. Pleasure. Quick one. Right now, one of my sponsors on this. podcast who I absolutely adore, crafted the men's jewelry brand, are having a sale right.

now up to 70% off a brand that's already incredibly affordable. If you ever see me wearing jewelry on videos in real life, it's crafted jewelry, this particular. piece. These pearls here are one of my favorite pieces to wear when I'm trying to wear a fashionable. item. All of their pieces, I wear all of their rings, I wear all of their jewelry. And I. did, before they sponsored this podcast, I actually asked them to sponsor this podcast.

because I was such a big fan of the brand. I'm not somebody that rolls around in Rolexes and stuff like that, but I do want quality. jewelry that isn't gonna change color, that is gonna be durable enough to keep up with. me. Um, that looks fashionable and that has a sense of meaning. And that's exactly what. crafted has in their rings, in their necklaces, in everything they produce. I know the founders, I know how much they care. And if you're a man that often struggles. to find a good place to, to buy good quality jewelry, that's not gonna change Color, that's. not gonna break. Um, crafted is the answer, and it's incredibly, incredibly affordable.

And they have a sale on right now, which they never, ever do. 70% off. I employ you to go and check it out. For many years people have been asking for. a coffee flavored hu and quite recently Hill released the ice coffee, caramel flavor of. their, um, ready to drink hus and I've just become hooked on it. Over the last couple. of weeks, I've been on a really interesting journey with Hue, which I've described and. talked about a little bit on this podcast. I started with the berry ready to drinks, then I moved over to the protein salted caramel.

because it's a hundred calories and it gives you all of your essential vitamins and minerals, but also gives you the 20 odd grams of protein you need. And now I'm balanced between them. both. I drink mostly the banana flavor, ready to drink. I've got really into the iced coffee caramel. Um, flavor of, of heels ready to drink and. now I'm drinking that as well as the protein. Make sure you try the new ready to drink flavors. that the caramel flavor's amazing. The, um, new banana flavor as well is amazing. And. obviously, as I said, the iced coffee caramel flavor has been a real smash hit.

So check it out. Let me know what you think on social media. I see all of your tags in. Instagram posts and tweets about you.