Lilly Singh: My Deepest Insecurities Led To My Greatest Achievements | E136

could you do me a quick favor if you're. listening to this please hit the follow. or subscribe button it helps more than. you know and we invite subscribers in. every month to watch the show in person. i wanted to be powerful and have. influence because i wanted to prove. people wrong you can't start the. internet for very long without stumbling. upon lily's sink lily. i was born into the reality of being a. disappointment right away there were. rules about being a woman my mom did not. grow up with queer culture so for me to.

expect her to operate from a place of my. lived experience how is that math ever. going to add up. welcome to the first episode of a little. late with lilly singh you got given a. late night show when i said that you. said i'm so sorry tell me why you said. that because i don't think the thing was. good. the community that i did this show for. is pissed at me because i nervously made. a joke out of context and that broke my. heart every day did you have anxiety at. the time i developed it during season. one of the show. is the struggle worth it for me yes it.

is i believe in what i believe so much. more than the hurt that i feel. so without further ado. i'm stephen bartlett and this is the. diary of a ceo usa edition i hope. nobody's listening but if you are. then please keep this to yourself. [Music]. lily. thank you for being here it's a real. honor and we've got a mutual friend jay. shelley who's really spoken so. incredibly highly of you and then when i.

got a chance to delve into your story i. became pretty fascinated by many things. i want to start because i always i. always believe that the foundation of. everybody that i sit here with and also. myself having studied some childhood. psychology is their childhood so i guess. the question i had for you is. when you think about 10 year old lily. and the lessons she had learned by that. age about the world and life. what were those lessons and where did. she learn them from. the lessons at the age of 10 i don't.

think were necessarily beneficial ones. um. i was. born into the reality of. being a disappointment right away being. the second daughter in an indian family. i was told in my adult life that my. grandparents great grandparents and. india didn't find out about my birth for. about two weeks because they had said if. it's not a sun is not worth calling home. about so that really colored in a lot of. my childhood because whether it was. ridiculous things like.

oh you know girls aren't supposed to. talk that much ridiculous things like. girls aren't supposed to whistle. whatever girls weren't supposed to do. was very apparent to me from a really. young age so the lessons i was taught. that there were rules about being a. woman there was expectations about being. a woman. and i had to. fit that mold if i wanted to be. not even accepted but if i want to make. people proud i think more than anything. i never felt like i wasn't accepted but. if i wanted to be. extraordinary in the eyes of people that.

were disappointed in me i had to fit the. mold and so a lot of my upbringing was a. little bit of this. uh simultaneous i need to fit the mold. but then this rebellious side of me. being like but i don't want to and kind. of negotiating that balance. what you said about your grandparents. wanting a boy and generally in an indian. culture they're being a desire to have a. boy how did that impact you. i i read that you were a tomboy growing. up yes yes yes yes i was obsessed with. doing the rock johnson i loved wrestling. i wore baggy clothes i rebelled in every.

such a way because of this expectation. that was set upon me i think in my adult. life i have learned and i don't think i. knew this growing up i don't think i. even knew this years ago i think this is. a quite recent revelation. that experience has put a very heavy. chip on my shoulder that i carry in my. adult life and i think for a lot of my. life i was. scared to admit that or i was. embarrassed to admit that because no one. wants to admit that they have this chip. on their shoulder but now i fully. embrace it that ship on the shoulder is. for most of my life i always felt like i. had to prove myself in every instance no.

matter what it was whether it was school. grades whether it was my dancing ability. whether it was. how i could speak up at a family party. no but in every instant i always felt. like i had to prove myself worthy. because i was born into this reality. where. being a girl is lesser in indian culture. and that has followed me into my adult. life and if you look at the pattern of. everything i've done in my career i've. only now connected the dots that the. common thread between all of that is. proving myself. and so even when i started making. youtube videos in 2010 a lot of people.

asked me why did you do that and i can. give you the answer that i think people. want to hear which was i wanted to. create a path and no one else was doing. what i was doing and sure that's all. true to some extent but the real reason. was i wanted to be. powerful and to have influence because i. wanted to prove people wrong i think. that has always been that chip on my. shoulder i wanted to prove that being a. girl. was worthy of celebration and so that. has been a thing that has followed me so. so that is truly the chip on my shoulder. that now i'm just fully transparent.

about. when i think about my own insecurities. and the things i pursued at like 18. years old they were all the opposite of. the thing that invalidated me when i was. a kid so when i was a kid only black kid. in an all-white school parents with a. broke family and a perfect white picket. right you know neighborhood and so my. pursuit in life was like if i had the. things that i'd missed as a child if i. had money and if i was i'd know famous. or whatever then it would be filling. some kind of childhood void i wonder. when you said then i wanted to be.

powerful and have influence is that. because you. you didn't when you were younger as well. is that part of it i think it's more so. that the people who are the most. powerful in my upbringing were men. they were. the men in my family the men at a family. party that were in the corn they got to. control a conversation what they said. goes. men notoriously in indian culture are. the decision makers the powerful people. and i know one thing that the men in and. i don't want to paint all indian culture. or men but i'm just saying as a kid it. was evident to me that the uncles made.

the decisions they got to decide what. was acceptable not acceptable and so i. knew one thing that the men would. understand was power money and influence. and so i think i strived for a career. that would give me those things so i. could kind of prove a point to them. being like you may not understand my. value in any other way aside from money. power and influence and to some extent i. was not wrong i've done a lot of cool. things in my life but the things that. really. made my dad and my uncles go wide-eyed.

were things like the forbes list where. things like oh she's in a headline she. has her own show those are the things. that they understand to be of value and. i'm not saying that's right or wrong and. i'm not trying to dissect if it's right. or wrong i just knew they would. understand that and so for me to have an. impact. of course i want to help people of. course i want to pave the path that's. all true. but those are not the things that the. people that had power as a kid for me. would understand they understand power. money and influence so i would be lying. to say that that wasn't a driving factor. and you so you moved to la your youtube.

career starts really gaining traction. you said it a second ago that you. pursued youtube because of your very. honest power and influence right but. when you start on youtube there's no. guarantee of power and influence right i. know your first video did like 70 views. or something crazy yeah yeah. so when you started youtube a very. strange thing to be doing back then. recording yourself especially doing like. funny stuff in your room or whatever for. sure what what were you thinking like. what was that yeah i was thinking a few. things one was that i was always a very. creative kid i was the kid that wanted.

to be the center of the dance circle at. a family party i wanted i watched ace of. cakes i wanted to bake cakes i wanted to. be creative through any means necessary. but i think i was convinced that. creativity was a phase that it's. something you do as a pastime as a kid. your career shouldn't be creative you. let go of that you get a real job et. cetera et cetera when i was in. university and i discovered youtube it. was a glimpse of. i could be creative as an as an adult i. could. express myself in a way that's like on. my own terms there is no gatekeeper.

there's no rules this was. something that i got to make the rules. about i got to decide i built a little. community of people that also were in a. little bit of a dark place so i got this. sense of connection that i wasn't. getting in real life um and the real. real talk of it is that i'm an obsessive. person. once i started making youtube videos i. was obsessed with it i was obsessed with. learning how to do it well. exploring how else i could be creative. learning how to get more views learning. how to market myself i with everything i.

do i'm a very all or nothing person. which has been. a great pro but also very detrimental in. my life um this type of obsessive. personality especially if you you become. obsessed about something that isn't. fully aligned right which is possible. right because there can be two. conflicting forces the force can be i. want to be really successful and then. the other force can be saying well this. isn't my purpose and. they can surely come into it's also very. problematic when you're obsessive over. something that is governed by numbers.

that is a very dangerous combination. when you're obsessive and your success. is measured by views and subscribers and. stats that is a bad recipe right there. because i would actually. be this is 2010 before youtube had a had. very complex analytics now you can see. and now you can you can know how many. people with dogs on their laps are. watching your videos like it's intense. how many analytics you can get now back. in the day that wasn't the case i would. actually have my own spreadsheets like a. crazy person just on my wall. every day tracking okay how many views. this video did this many subscribers.

there's people like an obsessive degree. and i don't regret that because it. got me great success but i've had to. slowly unlearn a little bit of that to. not go completely crazy in my adult life. before that youtube phase with the. spreadsheets and stuff like that. did people consider you to be a lazy. person did they do they like count you. out. one thing i can say is i've been called. a lot of things in my life. i have never been called lazy so when. you were because that that phase before.

the youtube and the spreadsheets right. what were you doing with your in your. life at that phase so i was applying to. grad school i had just finished. graduating and i was applying to grad. school and let me let me put an asterisk. to my last comment i'm sure my parents. would call me lazy from time to time. it wasn't lazy as much it was as it was. my heart is not in this thing so i do. not. i do not think it is worthy for me to. put my energy into it that's what i was. getting at yes which is how someone can. go from being perceived by their parents.

or in my case by school as being i got. kicked out of school for the same thing. and then just years later they can see. that i'm obsessed when something is in. line with something has caught me like a. fish on a home right exactly better or. for worse maybe it's caught one of my. insecurities and dragged me off into the. future whatever. but i just thought that was interesting. that like maybe in that phase of your. life others would look at you and go oh. she's lost because. the moment i walked into my parents room. and i said i want to make youtube videos. um what i actually was doing five. minutes before that is i was right. trying to write an essay to get into.

grad school and it was bad and i was. like i'm not this makes no sense i don't. even care about the outcome of this i. closed my laptop right then and there. and i said if i don't care about this. i'm not gonna do well in this and so i. really had to shift my focus somewhere. else and that literally five minutes. later i went to my parents room and i. said i can't do this. i want to try making videos on the. internet and they were like. say what now um this was in 2010 and. they gave me the best advice ever and. the best blessing ever which was you. have a year so they also give me a bit. of a ticking time bomb they said you. have a year to try whatever you want to.

try whatever this youtube thing is you. have a year and if it doesn't work out. you will go to grad school and you will. do exactly what you were doing five. minutes ago and so i also had a bit of a. a time period that i had to figure. things out in which was a huge blessing. because it made me every moment for that. year work on making this pop off. when you had that conversation with your. parents how big were you on youtube if. at all. not that big not that big at all i think. i had like my views were in the. thousands probably okay um and this was.

2010 like i said so i vividly remember. when i hit 1 000 subscribers now your. cat can meow and you will have like. 10 000 subscribers but this was a. a lot of hustle to get to even a. thousand i know this because i made a a. justin bieber never seen every parody. when thousands of breakfast i was like. i've made it baby. when you reflect now on the role that. your parents were playing in your life. like even then like having to go to them. and then like granting you this year. it all sounds incredibly like imprisoned.

you know what i mean. yes i think for a lot for a lot of my. teenage years my young adult years i. probably viewed it like that i no longer. do i've done a lot of work to try to. figure out and respect my parents. context which has really really helped. me in their circumstances and really put. value to it not just dismiss it so i. actually think a lot of what they did. although the moment didn't seem right. and even now a little questionable. sometimes it actually really helped me. like this one year if they were so.

liberal to me and let me do whatever i. might have not worked as hard in that. one year to be honest. you know and if they did not teach me. the value of a lot of the things that. they value i probably wouldn't be the. person i am today so i actually don't. hold that against them at all it's. really interesting mo god a guy that. came on this podcast said that when he. used to work at google when they. interviewed people and said would you. erase the most traumatic or difficult. moments of your life um. knowing that it would erase all the. lessons it taught you as well and. everything that came with it would. people do it 99 of people said they.

wouldn't no and there's an interesting. thing about how we look back on our. trauma because we also don't know the. other outcome because it's interesting. it's. and i agree when people ask me in. interviews what would you say to your. younger self and what would you change i. always say i wouldn't change anything. because even those like horrible. decisions those questionable moments. they have all resulted in something. really really great that's the exchange. of the universe and that's just how. things work magically um. and it's interesting how knowing that. right now i can sit here and tell you. that i would not change anything about. my past any trauma any pain even knowing.

that. i will still sit here today and think. that the pain i'm experiencing today is. intolerable. and not acknowledge that 10 years from. now i will probably say the same thing. about the pain i'm experiencing today. something to always keep in mind. we have this way of humans as humans of. thinking that whatever pain we're. experiencing right now is for sure. definitely the worst pain and it cannot. get worse it always does. and we always think that it's still the. worst pain when you were a kid you. thought i remember when i was a kid my. mom i said i couldn't get this shirt it.

said backstreet girls on it and i. remember thinking this is the worst day. of my life and my life is never gonna. get worse than this i remember thinking. that i'm gonna run away my mom hates me. she won't let me be a backstreet girl. how dare her and then years years later. something else happened i thought that. was the worst and we keep doing that as. humans don't we we keep thinking that. whatever this is today this is the worst. that perspective completely true. completely true been through it myself a. million times i always say you know this. is. the current crisis always feels like the. fatal one until hindsight tells you that. the current one is the failure right um.

but what does even knowing that it still. doesn't seem in my case to stop the. current crisis feeling. faithful it helps a little bit takes the. edge off but when we're in the heart of. the storm for whatever reason. what else helps you to gain perspective. on the situation i mean like really i. don't mean like the advice that we give. in our books and stuff i mean right what. actually helps. what actually helps me when i'm going. through pain and i can't see myself. coming out the other side.

is. truly to i'm a very. logical person in the sense that i. always think about things through. to the best of my ability. facts or like diagrams i just have this. brain that likes processing things and. so i think about. okay. what is my success rate of getting. through things. it's actually 100 right now i sit here. at 100 we all sit here everyone watching. actually you sit at 100 right now no. matter what yeah 100 is where you said. that so i think about things through.

that lens but i also think about. just is the struggle worth it. and. for me yes it is i believe in what i. believe so much more than i the hurt. that i feel and that's the balance i. think we need to keep in check is it. worth it is your struggle worth it and i. think you really need to do the work to. make that answer yes. and i didn't always. operate from a yes. but i think now i do i believe. i found my purpose and i know jay talks. about this a lot but finding your. purpose and what your purpose is on this. planet helps you get to that yes so for.

me. i think my. my struggles are worth it i think the. pain is worth it to get on the end. you became. a hugely i'm going to look back to that. sort of topic in a section but to give. the listeners a context you became a. hugely hugely successful. social media star creator whatever you. want to call it. um. built one of the biggest youtube. channels still to to this day some. millions of millions of subscribers yeah. that is uh that makes you in the 0.0. whatever percent anomalies in the world.

so i hear the obsessive thing you said. about the spreadsheets i guess that i. thought for her to get there she must be. pretty obsessed i walked in here and you. were like ooh she has google doc written. all over her well like there's like but. we all i think at times in our lives. probably look back and think i was also. probably toxic obsessive you know. because the things that i was ex you. know especially when you're in the. numbers business right and the metrics. business so what else about you when you. think about that phase of your life from. 2000 and. you know maybe 13 when you hit a million. subs to where you hit.

14 point whatever seven million subs. what was it about lily outside of the. obsessive part. that made you. such an anomaly through that phase of. like. career success in youtube. this has required a lot of reflection. because um. i was trying to think recently. what my purpose is going back to our. previous conversation what is my purpose. because i i thought my purpose was. specific projects i would work on. specific things in the industry and i.

kept thinking that's too small that's. that's such a in the moment purpose like. what is your greater purpose so i had to. go look back through my life recently. like what is the common thread here and. the common thread between everything. especially during this time period. you're talking about can be summarized. in one word and that is disrupter. i think my purpose is to disrupt and i. think i've done it continuously in my. life from being a tomboy as a kid to. being outspoken in a room full of uncles. to getting into the entertainment. industry not through an agent not. through moving to la but through youtube.

where there are no gatekeepers from. the first late night host wherever that. historic moment was like i continuously. feel the need to disrupt not because i. am actively trying to disrupt because it. is just who i am as a person and i know. this even on the personal side. um. the first. openly queer person to host a late night. show the first woman of color first i've. just been associated with so many firsts. and i used to hate it like i used to i. remember thinking and telling my. therapist. i don't want to be the first i don't. want to be the first anymore i hate.

being the first i don't want the. pressure of all this i just want to do. what i love doing. and my therapist joked and said yeah you. need to pick a cause you got a lot of. things going you have to pick an issue. but i have since embraced that instead. of looking at it as a. thing that i hate about myself and i. want to change about myself and that. causes me stress i haven't accepted that. it is my purpose to disrupt it is just. how i am built i am built to break. systems and molds again not because i'm. actively trying to stir the pot but. because it is just how my brain and my. being operates i have to break molds.

so when you ask me that question between. that time period what was it about lily. it's that lily always would ask the. question of how else can this be done. and why isn't this being done this way. and maybe there's a different way of. doing it and when she gets told that. this is the way things usually are done. i just simply do not accept that i. everyone on my team knows that's the. worst thing you can say to like this is. how things are traditionally done i just. don't accept that with anything.

clearly you're someone who's built a lot. of evidence that the look you just gave. me is the look my parents give me just. like no yeah do you know there was so. much going on in my head and then i was. thinking about different ways to take. that and different feelings i got from. that yeah one of them honestly was like. especially hearing the obsessive thing. listen when i ask these questions i'm. not because i think because i relate to. so much of what you're saying yeah i'm. asking the questions to to pick dig. deeper not because i no i love it i love. it but it's just. the look is like my parents looking at. me like yeah right she likes to distract. her yeah because my brain went my brain. went oh my.

she's so even when you were delivering. it so passionate that i felt i was like. that's exhausting to be obsessed it's. exhausting on the other hand i was. thinking. why is your brain wired to disrupt. things like why so i understand the from. an innovation perspective it's going to. be fruitful you're going to create new. things but why is that your. predisposition is it going back to your. childhood and saying i think still like. the system i have asked that question to. myself as well why is that no matter and. this is where it can be to a detriment. sometimes because sometimes i'll take. simple simple tasks that are don't need.

that much effort but i will make it so. i'm disrupting even those small small. things maybe there's a different way to. throw a party maybe there's a different. way to have a friendship maybe there's a. different way to decorate my house and. every aspect i have to disrupt and it is. exhausting it's absolutely exhausting. and i've tried to figure out why why. what is it in me. i'm still trying to figure it out but i. think. from my work thus far i've determined. that it's just that from the moment i. was born i was already a disruption i. was already that and i think that's just. me stepping into my power fully. embracing that's who i am and being like.

fine i'm not gonna. reject that i am going to fully embrace. that's my purpose in life because. another thing is. you know when you ask me about the chip. on my shoulder. the part of the story i didn't say is. that i actually did come out the other. end so in my adult life when i announced. my first world tour after becoming a. youtube success i very purposely. announced it in india i was like i want. to announce the tour in india i want the. first stops to be in india i know that's. where you know my great-grandparents are. now that's where my parents are from i.

know it'll mean the most there to have. the biggest impact so after i announced. that tour i went and did the eight-hour. drive to visit my grandfather for the. first time in my adult life i had never. met him as an adult before and. this was the the grandfather where and i. hold nothing against him because i again. i respect people's circumstances but he. was the one that didn't want to hear. about a daughter who didn't believe a a. daughter in the family would be. worthwhile. he was standing outside of his house and. greeted me with a flower garland and he. said the words to me this is like an 80.

year old indian man said the words to me. i was wrong you have made this family. more proud than anyone else could have. ever done and he showed me all these. newspaper clippings he had saved with me. so that moment for me. also validated. what disruption can do. it can make progress. progress comes from disruption and. breaking systems and so i think that for. me was a very and i i remember it so. vividly because it did leave such an. impact on me but that for me was like. look this is what disruption can do this.

is what the uncomfortable. process results in. and am i right in therefore concluding. that that disrupt the the fuel of the. disruption was that chip on your. shoulder. and it creates almost a bit of an. injustice and a sense of anger in people. that i've seen so many times in myself. and thinking about my friend umar who's. come comes from a somewhat similar. background an indian guy went on to. create a billion dollar company he he he. grew up with this internal just almost. frustration anger this sense of trying. to correct an injustice and that.

manifests this chip on its shoulder and. i guess life. if you start with that predisposition. and you go through life with that idea. of like disrupting the status quo. you will win and that will reinforce. that yes so now imagine when i work with. you if i came up with a conventional. idea you know from 33 years of. experience that the rewards are on the. other side of the disruptive you know. what we call first principle thinking. when you go to the extra effort of. thinking about something from fresh. right and that's um it's that. i also will be really honest i thought.

that that moment of. uh my grandfather knows now he knows. what's up he knows my name would. eliminate the chip on my shoulder it. didn't. i don't think it will ever actually go. away why um i'm still trying to figure. that out i think it's because that same. chip is still reinforced in so many. other places in the world. it's still that i'm was the only female. late night host and so when i was at. that seat in that table surrounded by. men that chip was just reinforced it's. like a neutron exactly so i think it.

keeps getting reinforced it was never. just about my grandfather it was just. about the system but that is also i. would just say i have to get really. honest and say that mixed with ego once. you get a bit of success i think jay-z. says success is the most addictive drug. it is once you disrupt and it comes out. the other end and you see how amazing it. is you're like i just keep doing this i. keep doing this i need to keep. disrupting i need to that's been. something i've had to. really. meditate on in my adult life is that. when does that stop when does that. desire just more and more and more and. more disrupt disrupt when when when when.

does that stop yeah that can be the real. enemy of happiness right absolutely. yes happiness is often right here but we. can't see it because we're still trying. to chase it that way we're still trying. to it's always the. it's in the future mentality you know. happiness will come success will come. these things will come maybe it's like. right now. right even saying that there is not. enough right now yeah because i say that. to a lot of people but still struggle. with it you have to do a lot of work. it's a lot of work it's not just where. it's a lot of work and how you assign.

value to yourself how you assign value. to other things for most of my life i've. hustled so i built an entire brand out. of hustling anyone that knows anything. about me it's a hustle harder hustle she. wrote how to be a boss or first book. it's a. now. over the past two years i've done the. work to not hustle less i still work. very very hard but it's what does all. this stuff actually mean what is the. value you tied to this stuff is what you. thought it was going to be i think you. can only learn that once you get there. and you get it and you're like oh it's. not giving me the feeling i thought it. was going to give me and it probably. never will because of this value we've.

assigned to all this stuff. have you gotten to the point where you. you know that you are enough. who this is turning to therapy what did. you think it was gonna be clearly never. listen to this vodka okay i'm gonna. cancel my therapy appointment. i saved myself 300 um. we charge. um. i am just now actively right now in the. process of believing that. through writing my latest book my latest. book was a lot about that it was about.

am i enough right now because i think. i'll be honest it's a buzz word oh you. are enough like for example kids are. born these days and we it's the first. words we tell them are you enough you're. not you're great just the way you are. i think we need to find the balance of. hard work and spirituality of business. and spirituality there's intersection of. these things where yes i think now i'm a. full complete human being does that mean. i don't have goals and aspirations i. don't want things i still have all of. those things but i'm at the point right. now where. those things whether i have them or. don't have them will not impact the way.

i define myself. see a lot of. my life i've defined myself as youtube. sensation. late night host actress who has this. role. i am doing the work to realize that i'm. actually a complete human being that has. value aside from that and those things. are just cool things and experiences i. get to do and i can strive to be great. at them i can perfect my craft but i'm. not. lesser if i don't have those things and. i'm not more if i do have those things. this is an active thing i'm working on. and when you get to that place if we are.

lucky enough in our lives to get to the. place where we realize we're enough. that's you know i had this really. interesting conflict in my life which. i'm sure that listeners have heard about. before where. when someone said to me one day maybe. seven years ago they said you need to. realize that you're already enough i. remember thinking what a load of. [ __ ] yep i'm not gonna get out of. bed if i have that viewpoint i don't. need to strive for anything [ __ ] get. out my office right and then upon. reflecting on that writing my book. whatever. i realized that my thought that knowing. you're enough inhibits ambition is. actually false what it does knowing your. enough kills fake ambition the minute i.

knew i started to get closer to. realizing that i was enough my ambitions. were all things that i actually wanted. that were actually in line with my so. it's this weird paradox of when you know. you're enough it doesn't inhibit. ambition it's the foundation of real. ambition it gives you a lot of clarity i. think and you're absolutely correct. because. when you don't feel like you're enough. everything feels important. everything feels like something you have. to obtain everything feels like a. challenge you know when i didn't feel. like i was enough and i felt like i am. the late night host i am this actor i i. am my job this is what defines me if.

anyone asks me who i was i would never. answer as. i'm patient friend i'm a nice i would be. like i'm. in this show i mean that's how i would. or i would define myself by my struggles. which is another whole thing not by ever. my potential i would never say i'm. someone who's gonna change the world. because of xyz i would say i'm someone. who had a really tough childhood we. either define ourselves by our struggles. or by these other external validations. and accolades that we think are. important. when i did that i would care so much for. me what was so important was i need to.

prove this troll wrong on the internet i. need to that's that's my priority i need. to prove this troll wrong i need to get. this rating i need to and then the. second i was like you know what. my purpose is to disrupt uh i know what. my values i'm a complete person already. suddenly that stuff became way less. important to me. suddenly i was like oh actually my. priority is going to be. i want to tell stories that i think are. really. meaningful i'm not saying that it has to. be a box office breaker.

in that i'm saying i just wanna tell. stories that are important you things. become a little more clear when you. accept you make space for priorities to. become clear when you stop pretending. that all this other stuff is important. so i totally agree that is something i. struggled with where i thought and i. think that was my resistance against it. when people would tell me you're enough. and when they just tell kids they're. like no that kid's gonna grow up and. they're not gonna they're not gonna. become anything if you just tell them. they're enough. again i still think that there's. a intersection between hustling and. spirituality i don't think we have to. pick one or the other i really don't i. think there's a way for both of those.

things to co-exist but i do it has. become apparent to me that. being mindful. feeling like you're enough. it actually allows you to hustle with. more clarity. i had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast as the seasons. have begun to change so has my diet and. um. right now i'm going to be completely. honest with you i'm starting to think a. lot about. slimming down a little bit because over. the last couple of probably the last. four or five months my diet has been. pretty bad um and it started to show a.

little bit really over the last two. months i go to the gym about 80 of the. time so i track it with 10 of my friends. in a whatsapp group and this tracker. online that we all use together we call. it fitness blockchain and i'm currently. at 81 percent um so 81 of the days i've. done a workout in the last 150 days. right so i'm going to the gym about six. times a week. that's been a little bit impacted by the. derivative live tour but i'm trying to. stick to it. and so one of the things i'm doing now. to reduce my calorie intake and trying.

to get back to being nutritionally. complete and all i eat is i'm having the. heel protein shake thank you hill for. making a product that i actually like. the salted caramel is my favorite i've. got the banana one here which is the one. my girlfriend likes but for me salted. caramel is. the one you know when people are saying. oh you need to get this rating and. you're thinking well i'm going to prove. them wrong and whatever and you're. getting dragged by external you know. measurements or validation and then you. get to the point where you say you know. what i actually just want to tell. stories. people reach that crossroads a lot in. their life where they've kind of like. built an identity in your case tens of.

millions of followers by doing something. and then you know in other people's. cases it could be they're working in as. a lawyer and then they they catch sight. of what their purpose might be and at. that crossroads life says to you if you. go down that route you're going to lose. a lot of this stuff that you've built i. know it's not aligned with you but. you're going to lose friends a network. an identity don't go down that road. right and you face that so clearly in. your life that crossroads.

and even leaving youtube. you know when you have. 14 million. you have your damn mind yeah but yeah. totally but tell me so like at that. crossroads in life what advice would you. give to people when in your case you're. one of the ones that really had. you know i don't want to say a lot to. lose because that's a presumption right. so it's like. the public would think that you had a. lot to lose by taking a different route. right. you're absolutely correct i think one of. the reasons i for so long kept holding. on to the strings of youtube to be like.

no i want to do other stuff but i'm. still going to do this i want to do that. stuff but i'm still going to make these. videos i'm still going to dress up as my. parents was that it was that i didn't. want to lose this traction i had this. audience i had this instant. gratification i had of having this. massive audience at my fingertips i also. to be honest i was scared of this. term relevancy i think relevancy is used. as currency these days like you're not. relevant so you're worth less now and we. have this. this way to measure people based on. relevancy this. can be summarized in one easy sentence. which is you cannot expect to grow and.

also stay the same. it just cannot happen you have to make. room for growth and so. in order for me to fulfill my ambitions. of i want to do stuff with movies and. tvs and i want to i want to just do all. this other stuff that is me growing in. my craft i cannot stay the same i can. you have to make space for that you know. i also always think about if i have. again going me going back to diagrams. and the way my brain thinks if i have. 100 energy at the start of a day i can.

only spend 100 energy no more energy is. coming i you have a hundred so where are. you going to put that energy it can be. to old habits it can be to holding on to. the relevancy but then that limits how. much energy is left for growth so it. really is just a decision you have to. make of making room for growth. and when you did. make that decision back in 2019 to to. was it 2019 you left youtube. i still ok. yeah but yeah i think around 2009 to. where i stopped consistently uploading. videos yes so um.

when i read about why you left youtube. there was clearly some symptoms of life. saying to you. you're [ __ ] up here in some way what. were those symptoms. i think doing things because you feel. like you have to doing things because. you feel like you owe people doing. things that you're not really passionate. about um and feeling like you don't you. haven't given yourself permission to. grow and how does it emotionally feel. um. stagnant i felt like. i was trapped i felt like i owed people.

this version of myself that was stuck in. space and that was not allowed to grow i. felt not creative i felt um. not free. and i felt like. even though i what i loved about youtube. was freedom i can post whatever i want. whenever i want there's no gatekeepers. i felt trapped in that system it became. the exact opposite of what i loved about. youtube which was you have to serve. every monday and thursday you have to. post a video you have to appease these. fans it has to be like this has to be. this long if it is the algorithm it.

became the exact same thing i never. wanted in the first place which was to. be trapped in something like that and so. um it just it stopped feeling right to. me it stopped feeling like a place that. i could grow and learn and thrive the. lily that i would see on camera at that. point in the lead up to you deciding to. depart versus the lily that would be. there right after you stopped recording. tell me the difference between those two. people yeah she's just as weird in both. instances i can tell you that she's just. as weird she's just as quirky but one of. them was definitely a bit more. performative. pretending to be a little bit more.

passionate than she was. pretending not to be tired and exhausted. and pretending to be excited about what. she was doing i think after i turned off. the camera i was like oh god i gotta. edit this thing i gotta do this thing i. gotta go through these there was no. growth it was just such a repetitive. pattern and. as a creative i didn't want that that's. if i wanted that i would have just done. the grad school thing right. and then obviously you get this big um. opportunity which is well written about. and i've watched the episodes i've. watched season one and season two first. grapes no no.

why did you say i'm so sorry. so first of all the context of the for. people that don't know so you got given. a late night show you were the first. woman of color. to be like over 30 years yet and over 30. is to be led into that. boys club. on a major network. when i said that you said i'm so sorry. tell me why you said that because i. don't think the thing was good. and i'm not. necessarily proud of it you know. when i. got the show. again me being the streptor the whole. first season the the advertising was.

we're gonna break the mold we're. knocking down the doors of late night. we're gonna do things differently and. then i proceeded to do things pretty. much exactly how they've always been. done why um because. for the first time in my life i was in a. situation where i could not call the. shots. i couldn't make the decisions i didn't. have the resources to do things. differently the system is not built to. do the issue the system is not built to. do things differently. it's hard to do things differently when. you're told okay so the episode has to. be exactly 22 minutes and 23 seconds it.

has to be that amount of time can't be a. second over it cannot be under the acts. have to be broken down like this because. our commercials have to go in these time. things so you had a joke that went there. can't go there anymore you have to do it. like this oh you're following jimmy and. seth and the audience is kind of used to. their formats you can do things. differently but it has to start with a. monologue so you have to come out you. have to hit the mark you have to do the. monologue. so many times when i did that monologue. which was the worst part of the show it. was like a 10 minute monologue of. mediocre jokes because i had a.

tiny writer's room and very few. resources this is to no discredit to the. writers i just had such few writers that. were too overworked. there were. episodes where i would miss the mark and. i would mess up and it was the best part. of the show and i would have to do it. again. to get it right and i would always think. why can't we just put the mess up on air. the best part of the show even beyond. that was before we were even rolling i. would go out and i would warm up the. audience and i would just riff with them. and talk some jokes and it would be so. just natural and funny and you would.

never see that in the show. why. we didn't have enough cameras to shoot. the audience so. we couldn't put it in the show so the. system was not built for. breaking the mold. at that time did your gut tell you. something was wrong absolutely from day. one i thought. this is going to be very hard. it's gonna be very hard to make. something that i'm proud of here and i. when what i hated about it was the. proudness and the pride was of something. superficial i was proud of the headline.

i was proud of the historic nature of it. i was proud that i got to make history. but none of. the work could back it up and that broke. my heart every day to know that i'm just. riding this headline and i'm not going. to be able to deliver on this there was. episodes i visually remember this there. was a several episodes where i would be. with my. we didn't even have a showrunner it was. my head of development for my production. company who acted as the showrunner for. the show and i would be walking and the. show would be starting in five minutes. and we would be going over the monologue. and i looked at her one and i said.

this is not funny. and this is not good and i don't want to. go out there and i don't want to have to. pretend it is. and she looked at me and she said. it's a quantity game it's not a quality. game and that broke my heart because. late night is a quantity game it's i. shot 96 episodes in three months and i. don't want to come across if i'm. complaining and all this but. i'm trying to highlight that. it was very difficult for me to go into. the system being the control freak guy. and being the disrupter and just try.

everything to disrupt it and it's just. too rock solid to be disrupted. i asked these questions in part because. i've just joined a show called dragon's. den okay which is like shark tank yeah. yeah five of us that investor walks in. and since then i've been offered a lot. more shows right. and. i mean you've been there right loads of. [ __ ] loads of proofs coming in for shows. big promises whatever. and some of them are really tempting. because it says oh you're gonna be on. netflix but then my gut says to me. that's a [ __ ] show though that is a. piece of [ __ ] so i'm asking from a.

perspective of advice when you find. yourself in the. in the shadow in the shadow of a great. temptation i'm you know steve butler. might be the first whatever whatever. whatever but i but i look at what's. going on the system in which i would be. operating as you did. what advice would you give to me based. on the lesson you've learned in. hindsight. i will answer this question by telling. you exactly that the lesson i learned. which is. it wasn't until the show finished that i. really had to reflect on that experience. be like what am i gonna do differently.

you see when i was offered the show the. first time it was brought to me i. actually said no people don't know this. i said no. and it disappeared for like a month and. it came back to me again and i thought. okay the universe is sending this back. to me again let me let me evaluate this. the reason i said no first was because i. never grew up with the dream of being a. late night host i know some people have. that experience where they're like i. grew up with late night television. watched every night. i don't think my mom could tell you what. jimmy's last name is like she they never. watched late night they i never grew up.

with that experience so it wasn't my. desire it wasn't my passion to be a host. um so that's why i said no but when it. came back around and it was explained to. me the historic nature of this. three things came into play one my sense. of responsibility and duty and to my ego. those things together i was like i want. to be part of this historic moment that. would be really cool also i have a. responsibility for this because what if. i say no and it goes to someone else. then this history is never even made and. we never even got this shot so all of. these. reasons that i thought were so valuable. and valid is why i said yes i was naive.

to think that that would be enough to. get me through those long shoot days it. wasn't because i would come home at the. end of. 96 episodes in three months. broken and i would think. that. was not fun and i didn't enjoy that and. i have no memory or no positive thought. to even show for that hard work. i learned the value of having fun. and doing things you're passionate about. i believe more than anything else those. are the things that actually contribute. to longevity more than anything else.

even money ask any person with a lot of. money. you'll go tired of money you'll go tired. of buying things you will never grow. tired of having fun and being passionate. about something and so since i wrapped. that show any project that comes to my. desk now. my agents will be on the phone and we'll. talk about the money for a while we'll. talk about the schedule for a while and. then i'll dedicate an amount of time. i'll say okay now we're going to talk. about if i'm going to have fun and if. these people are actually nice to work. with and do i even care about this do i.

care about this and what is this do i. even care about the message here what. this is saying if my answers are no. my definition of success right now is. that i will not say yes to it i have to. have fun right now where i am or i'm not. successful so that's my advice to you is. don't undervalue fun and passion because. those. you will never go tired of those things. it makes it even more difficult in that. situation where you're coming home after. filming those nuts by the way which is a. ridiculous number of anything. this should do the math for everyone. that's two to three episodes a day.

and traditionally late night house do. one a day. so you're coming home exhausted after. doing something that you didn't find fun. right and then. the exacerbating factor of all of that. which i i reflect on and i say to myself. steve you've been able to deal with this. part as well is the show was by some. people well-received but by others. heavily criticized. specifically the community which is the. youtube community you'd come from. people made very hurtful very. shallow. criticisms sometimes your personal.

criticisms about you in the show yeah. unless you're. the superwoman. which is the pseudonym i think he used. to go under that has got to. doing something you don't enjoy that is. not aligned with you and then being. criticized for it. is like the holy trinity of a bad place. to be right 100 even you saying this has. given me a fourth pimple on my cheek and. i'm sweating because it does it does. evoke an emotional response out of me. and it's not just the youtube community. it was the south asian community that i.

got critics from it was a queer. community that chris says. every and every community there was. people not all but there were some. people that were criticizing me that's a. really hard pill to swallow when i just. finished telling you that part of the. reason i said yes to the show was to. help pave a path i felt a responsibility. to communities. the tough part about being a minority. anything. is that so many people are counting on. you to reflect their experience the best. you can do is reflect your own the best. i could have ever done is talk about my.

experience. and my lived circumstances. that's never going to satisfy over a. billion south asian people. queer people women that's half of the. population right there there's no way. and that's the hard pill to swallow to. know that you can go out there try your. best and still because you're the only. one. people are going to criticize you i. think that is not discussed enough about. why it's so hard to break through it's. because. so many people are counting on you it's. an unrealistic expectation i also had to.

and this is way easier said than done. and i'm still working on it i had to. learn. not and i mean this with love but i mean. this very bluntly not to take advice. from people giving it from inside their. comfort zone. the amount of people. especially on youtube that would. criticize. the jokes on my show the delivery on my. show the. sound quality of my show without ever. never having stepped foot into a late. night studio. as a logical person i have to i have to.

shut that down. because that's the equivalent of me. watching basketball and being like you. missed that three-point shot oh my god i. could never make that shot so i really. had to retrain my brain. to. take away value from certain people and. add value if jimmy fallon wanted to give. me critique on my show i would have been. all ears and taken notes and been like. thank you so much but if some person on. the internet has never done this i. simply cannot take their critique. seriously and i know some people hear. that and they think that's a really.

perhaps. snobby way of looking at things but not. really no practically speaking you. cannot take advice from people. who are doing it from inside their. comfort zone because they actually don't. know what they're talking about. in that period and especially in this. sort of the cloud of that criticism. was there a particular day where you go. that was my hardest day emotionally how. i felt where it all just got because. i've had those moments in my life where. all the factors just line up on one. particular day and i think yeah yeah. this one's hard to talk about but for. the sake of having honest conversation.

in my first season. the first season was by far way tougher. than the second the second i. tried to make it more fun i put more of. my team into the staff i trust but the. first season was really tough this was. the 96 episodes in three months i talked. of. this was um we didn't even have a show. runner. we had half a dozen writers which is. half of what usually late night shows. have. i was just worked. to such an extreme like my from morning. to night was just at that studio i was a.

writer i was trying to produce i was. trying to host i was just in such a bad. state. and. one of the tasks that was on my plate. because of me i said i had to do this. was i had to watch every single episode. before it would air so at the end of a. shoot day at like 10 p.m. i would sit alone in that studio and i'd. watch the episode to be like. is this good and then. one of the eps said you don't need to do. this we can watch the show for you take. this off your plate and after much. convincing i was like you know what.

today. i'm so tired i'm not gonna watch this. episode. this episode was my interview with. jessica alba. and even though it was not the first. episode to air it was the first one we. shot because we shot out of watch was. the very first episode we shot i'm. obviously so nervous i'm so new to this. i'm trying to be funny. jessica alba had made a comment about. her kids and how they tied towels on. their head with cherby twists and. in an effort to try to be funny and try. to sound personable and make her kids.

not embarrassed i said oh i have lots of. friends that tie turbans and in my head. when i said it i was like it's the. coolest thing ever there's nothing to be. embarrassed about like i'm so familiar. of course not hearing the sentence of. towels on heads and turbans in the same. sentence and how that could be really. problematic historically. that was the one and only episode i did. not watch before it aired the one out of. 96 episodes and the very next day i was. getting dragged on twitter. the sick community was so upset at me. i apologized profusely.

and. i remember that day i was just the. lowest i've ever been where i thought. the community that i did this show for. is pissed at me because i nervously made. a joke out of context. i didn't watch that one episode so i. beat myself up about that and then i. watched every single episode after that. again and tortured myself all over again. but that was really tough for me to to. to feel like i let so many people down. to feel that i didn't get the benefit of. the doubt of just being a human being.

that was nervous and misspoke and to. also. have this idea validated in my brain. that oh if you don't do 300 if you don't. watch every episode if you don't do. every job it's gonna come back to bite. you so that was a very unhealthy moment. for me um and that was a really tough. day if i was a flow on the wall that day. in your room in your bedroom what would. i have seen. a lot of crying i think i cried though. like. in my green room that day. i remember my friend actually came to. visit me because he was like oh i know. you're in bad state i didn't even. realize he was there i was just staring.

into space the whole day just. i just felt like crap. the whole day. for weeks i still do talking about it i. still feel like crap. did you have anxiety at the time i. developed it during season one of the. show she developed here i never was an. anxious person. um. i think. 2019 this show maybe even leading up to. the show i definitely developed anxiety. for sure where i would like be in my. green room not. being able to control. my body's responses not being able to.

control my thoughts like that definitely. was something that developed during that. first season of late night. and then the second season you enjoyed. it much more i enjoyed it much more. because. i was able to make some changes i. thought we're not gonna shoot a studio. i'm gonna shoot in a house i'm not gonna. do a monologue i'm gonna do a rant these. things alleviated some of the pressure. from me um did i still think it was the. most amazing thing we ever made no i. thought it was better but the thing is. people had already made up their mind. after the first season. after that first season because it. wasn't instantly which is another tough.

thing about any new voice trying to do. every anything. if you don't impress people right away. they're giving up on you. like the second season of the show. i truly believe if that was the first. season of the show. people would have been like oh she. actually broke the mall she's doing. something different but you can't get. there you gotta go through the process. trial and error you gotta every show in. history has taken many seasons to find. his voice and find its footing. but it's the when you are a minority. you're just not given the benefit of the.

doubt you know. there's something that i really take. away from this as well which kind of. goes back to the first question i asked. on the topic which is um that even in. the face of like temptation i need to. make sure that i hold on to my values my. professional you know my personal values. and you know people offering me a. netflix show whatever if it compromises. my like creative and personal values. then i have to say no regardless of. temptation until they are going to allow. me to do it in line with who who i am. like the creativity that you have that. made you successful.

may i offer you a please a devil's. advocate perspective here because i've. also had this conversation my brain lots. and lots of times. i wish. that. i'm just i'm going to speak from the. south asian experience specifically as. well because that's my lived experience. but i wish. we could hold out for when we're allowed. to do things exactly how we want to for. them to get done. i truly believe if we were to all do. that nothing would get made. and i think that everything is progress.

and so i think it's balancing the line. of like i want to be true to my passion. my vision but there is a little bit of. compromise i have found has to happen. and as painful as it is that's why i. don't regret the late night show i think. that compromise had to happen. because when you when i'm in rooms right. now with my production company and i'm. having meetings with netflix and the. hulu's and all these people. the room of people giving me notes. do not look like me they still do not. so the option i have is to.

mold the show into a way that is. slightly palatable for them so it gets. made. so that another show like this could. potentially get made and i use never. have i ever as an example the historic. show on netflix is number one in 30. countries because of that show other. shows like that will get green light. other south asian stories will get. greenlit because of that show so that. show has proved to be. a great. path paper for sure. do i believe in my heart that that's the. exact show the creators wanted to make. and that they didn't have to no i think. they had to understand that progress.

has to be made so often when i'm in. these rooms. i get irked and i think. you're not understanding the cultural. nuance i don't want to cave on this i. don't want to explain to you what diwali. is i don't want to have to phrase this. like this i have to ask myself the. question. is it better to hold my ground and have. the show not be made or is it better. to get it made. seventy percent of the way i wanted to. be made so that the next iteration of. the show can be 80 and then 90 and then. 100 that is the reality of minority.

storytelling right now and i wish it. wasn't but that's what it is so it's. negotiating those that reality a little. bit as well and that's not just a. just a minority storytelling thing. that's like i was thinking about various. facets of life and business and. negotiation when there are multiple. factors at play there are stakeholders. who have a say they're investors there's. a timeline that constrains you there's a. limitation on resources right as you. described all of these factors cause an. unavoidable compromise where you have to. go. you know but i guess it's that balancing.

act of like what are my non-negotiables. then what am i completely not willing to. negotiate on um. after the second season of the call you. get a call saying that the show's not. going to be continued. tell me about that day. so. i'm gonna describe it as mutual although. yes the network does control like what's. what they're gonna put money towards or. not. i was secretly hoping two things and. they're both completely contradictory. half of me was like. i know this show is a win for the. community it has to keep going it has to.

keep going or else it's going to be a. fail for the community so i wanted it to. keep going the second part of me was. i really hope this show doesn't keep. going because i'm going to literally. collapse and die if this keeps going. um. and i always. judge things by what my gut reaction is. to them so when i got that call. my gut reaction was actual relief that's. how i knew that it was the universe. doing me a favor i would never do for. myself because if they let me i would. have tortured myself for 10 more seasons. honestly i would have the universe gave. me something to never got myself.

i got that call. i felt a wave of relief. knowing i would never have to torture. myself in that exact situation again but. it also going back to what our purposes. and getting clarity it made things a lot. more clear in my mind and in that moment. i was able to see oh this has been a. huge distraction from what i actually. care about and i actually want to do. this was an obligation this was. something i thought i had to do this is. not my passion it was never your passion. never once did i say i wanted to be a. late night host i did say i want to act.

i did say i want to tell stories i want. to produce all of those ambitions paused. during the late night show i couldn't. audition i couldn't do anything else i. literally sacrificed two years of my. life for something that i didn't even. want to do that's a sad sad thing that's. a sad realization so i think i was. rewarded with a lot of clarity in that. moment but what did your ego say in that. moment well obviously my ego was bruised. of course my ego was bruised i didn't do. i didn't do good enough if i had done. better um. i've let people down. i.

should have gotten more seasons this is. a bad look how do i make myself seem. like a winner all of that stuff. yeah very honest yes. same thing yeah i have things in my life. at the moment where i'm in the exact. same position where i'm like i don't. know if i. love doing this but if i was fired from. doing it or if they said they don't want. to continue. i would be in the same conflict like i. think there's certain things in my life. that aren't aligned with me completely. but at the same time you kind of want to. make sure it's done on your own terms. and that's the ego right no one wants to. be rejected no one wants to be canceled.

no one wants to feel like they could not. do something especially publicly. right it's not a private rejection it's. a public it's a very public type of. rejection so definitely my ego was. bruised um. and i think. more than anything. i learned from that experience that part. of the problem. is that i. easily put labels on myself and i think. we do this to ourselves and do with. other people as well i just kept calling. myself first late night host first this.

first late night host has to do this and. i have to do this and that pressure like. i'm not just that i'm someone who. tried really hard at this new thing and. had to learn a new like all that contact. is it's worthwhile context so now when i. think about myself through that context. i have more compassion for myself. and it pains me that other people also. didn't give me that context but i can't. control other people i can control. myself i do that to myself as harsh as. other people were to me i was way more. harsh. i had to put way more pressure on myself. and. since that experience i have also. learned to not label myself so i just.

got this new show this muppet show that. i was like wanted so badly and i was. like oh my god i have to get this i have. to get this is gonna be a life-changing. thing and the day i got it. i had to have a talk with myself to be. like you are not now. the lead of the muppet show that's not. now your label you will not now describe. yourself as this thing because then. that's just gonna be the late night host. again it's going to be the youtube. sensation again you are lilly you are a. complete human being this is a cool. thing you get to do that's one of your. goals great you get to do it you take.

experience but this is not now your. definition i think part of that struggle. with late night was it just became every. part of who i was and so people weren't. criticizing the show they're criticizing. me they're criticizing every part of me. and who i was and that's just a really. unhealthy boundary amen you know and. people do that i've noticed i've done. that more in my life when. i didn't think i was enough so my. identity or the label would make me make. sense to the world it would make me. you know put me in a community i would. become. social media ceo and then the problem is.

social media or any of these labels you. described comes with a set of implicit. instructions on how to behave and how to. be and how to act and that can be really. imprisoning generally i wrote this. chapter in my book called resisting your. labels because of how imprisoning. they've been in my whole life and also. you know as we're going to get on to. with you now when i left my label so. when i was no longer a social media ceo. i had a bit of an existential crisis and. life goes well just go be another one. again because that's what you are and i. think that's when people have these like. midlife crises where they realize they. spent the last 10 years or whatever. being the label and not the person.

you leave. the late night show. how was life like for the next year. well in the pandemic role exactly that. was right around the time of the. pandemic so i think that was. a very strange time because i couldn't. bounce back into anything else really. everything was shut down. and my plate was pretty empty because my. gigs were cancelled my travels were. canceled projects were canned everything. was. paused so it was a very hard time to let. go of something that was keeping you. busy and that was how you defined.

yourself. through the pandemic and i think a lot. of people can agree with this the. biggest silver lining was the work i was. forced to do on myself. and is when i wrote this second book be. a triangle because the thing about the. pandemic was it wasn't just that i. didn't know what to do with my time. it was that was the first time i was. faced with the reality. of. me not believing i had any value because. i didn't have work. and that was a sad scary realization for. me it was the first time my schedule. allowed me to sit there and be like now.

i'm alone and i'm with my thoughts and i. feel like i'm ceasing to exist as a. person because i don't have a purpose. and i don't have value and that's really. sad because that means every time work. goes away i will feel this way and. that's not. that's not what i want. that's not setting me up for success. that's not setting me up for a. spiritually happy life and so i did the. work to really dive deep into my soul. and be like. you're gonna figure this out and what i. came to the conclusion of is that. i. don't have any original thoughts when it.

comes to who i am as a person and what i. want out of life and what i value out of. life everything i've operated on has. been what people have told me whether. it's school whether it's my parents. whether society. i have never given thought into what it. is i actually want i never thought that. was an option it sounds ridiculous to. say but i guarantee you people that are. listening to this will actu actually. also think and be like wait have have i. ever done that ever stop to be like let. me work on myself like a project and let. me actually think about life as it's the. greatest project i'm ever going to work. on and so.

i vowed during the pound pandemic to. create a. strong foundation for my life what does. that mean because that's a fluff word. and you know i hate fluff words i've. already expressed i hate fluff words and. so how i define a foundation is i wanted. to create a. safe place in my mind that i could. return home to. that was not connected to anything. external and not connected to what was. happening in my life because my biggest. fear was that. the pandemic would be over and then i. would have work stuff happening again. and then again i would just teeter to.

happy sad success fail whatever was. happening in my life i would change to. my core and i didn't like that i wanted. to create something that was true to me. and no matter if i won 15 oscars from. tomorrow or i failed tomorrow that safe. place in my mind would still exist and. so that's what i did in this book i came. up with four things that i don't think. will ever change in my life to make up. the foundation. of that safe place in my mind. and that's why. you call it well good good good good. question he's like so the illuminati. be a triangle yeah yeah so when i.

discovered that a foundation is what i. needed to create i jumped onto google. and i was just like how to build a. strong foundation foundation and google. spit back. the triangle because structurally. speaking the triangle is the strongest. shape it has the strongest foundation. out of any shape and then i started to. think about triangles a lot and i was. like oh my my brain is very visual like. i expressed and i think of things in. diagrams and i started to visualize a. triangle and i thought the shape is. actually really interesting because. when you add to any other shape you. change the shape it turns into something. else you add to a square becomes a.

rectangle you add to a circle it becomes. an oval you add to a triangle. it stays a triangle it just becomes a. bigger triangle and i thought that's. really interesting i want to build my. life like that where no matter what. happens what experiences come my way i'm. still building on this foundation that. will not change. because especially in this industry. and all industries you could really. easily lose yourself but what's. happening in your life but the goal is. to create something that doesn't allow. that to happen and the triangle is the. perfect shape for that and what is the. what constitutes your foundation what.

are the ingredients of your foundation. if it was a recipe yeah so i talk about. four things that make up the the. foundation of my triangle i know the. hardest part of this book was figuring. out what those four things are. um and how i did it was i looked for. several months i looked at every. struggle and issue or conflict in my. life and i looked at it through the lens. of four things. that was one way i determined them the. second way was what are four things that. will never ever change no matter what's. happening in my life so i came up with. four pillars which are relationship to. yourself relationship to the universe.

understanding distraction. and implementing design i think no. matter where you are in your life who. you are what job you have what country. you live in how old you are those four. things are always true in your life and. it is the lens to which you can look at. everything in your life through. i had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast as you might. know crafted one of the sponsors of this. podcast and crafted are a jewelry brand. and they make really meaningful pieces. of jewellery and this piece by crafted. when i put it on for me it represents.

courage it represents ambition it. represents being calm and loving and. respectful and nurturing while also. being the antithesis of that seemingly. the antithesis of that which is um. sometimes a little bit aggressive with. my goals and determined and courageous. and brave the really wonderful thing. about crafted jewelry is it's super. affordable it looks amazing the pieces. hold tremendous meaning and they are. really well made on that point of. distraction which i'm going to talk. about because it was it was a big part. of your book and you you referenced.

there that you'd nev the pandemic was. the only time in your life where you'd. really been forced to. all the distraction fell away and you. were left with yourself um so many. people that i know and i'm sure you'll. you can relate to this um. fill their lives with distraction and. noise and things and busyness to avoid. stillness to avoid meditation or taking. time to their for their own mind. you you've picked up meditation and. breath work and things like that can you. speak to me a little bit about the the. impact that's had on on you specifically. breath work because i'm getting a little. bit more into this at the moment yeah.

when i read that you'd start doing it i. thought. and i'm still let me preface by saying. i'm so novice and there's much to learn. i'm just starting my journey with really. getting into meditation and breath work. but. i um over the past year. started to have. so this is from like a scientific point. of view before i even hit the spiritual. point of view i started to have panic. attacks which i thought i knew what they. were i think most people who have not. had a panic attack they think it's the. same as an anxiety attack they think. it's like oh you're really stressed and. you don't know how to deal with what's.

happening in your life that's what i. thought a panic attack was until i had a. panic attack and i'm like i was very. different. the first time it happened i just missed. it because i was like i don't know what. that was the second time it happened i. was like this is a reoccurring thing i. was talking to my friend. and we were talking about something so. unrelated it was like he was telling me. a funny story about work and suddenly in. my brain. i started to get outside my body like i. was watching myself and i started to. have these really strange thoughts like. i think i'm gonna. take my head and slam it against the. table for no apparent reason and i'm not.

gonna be able to stop myself and then i. started spiraling i'm like and then i'm. gonna have to call the ambulance and i'm. gonna be bleeding and everyone's gonna. be and then it's just like you. progressively are just spiraling to. being sure that you're gonna smack your. head against the table and nothing you. say can change your mind this is a. minute of just completely irrational. dangerous thought and then. suddenly i was like oh wait no. no i can i can stop myself from hitting. my head on the table. of course i can stop myself that is a. panic attack it's happened once before.

to me when i was driving and i was like. i'm going to drive off this cliff and. there's nothing i can do that's going to. stop me i won't be able to control. myself it's going to happen. when that sort of happened i talked to. my therapist about it. and she explained to me that as someone. who always operates on 10. because i'm always just working really. hard and i'm always thinking about the. next thing i'm an all-or-nothing dead. person i have an obsessive personality. that some things can trigger my nervous. system just go a little bit into. overdrive and that's the body's response. it's it's going into overdrive your. nervous system doesn't know what to do.

breath work really helps with that it's. just bringing your nervous system back. down to a state that's not not an 11. you're bringing it back down so from a. scientific point of view breath work has. been my saving grace to just health. having said that from spirituality. it's just my belief of you know i talk. about these pillars and i talk about a. connection with yourself. meditation is. you making time for the partnership with. yourself you know i believe we're all in. a relationship to ourself whether we. want to acknowledge it or not most of us. are bad partners to ourselves we don't.

make time for ourselves we don't listen. to ourselves. um. if anyone treated us how we treat. ourselves we would not be in a. relationship with that person probably. so meditation is more than anything else. it's not about religion it's not about. doing something so specifically it's. about making time to be in a. relationship with yourself and that's. something i really really value and i. think that's a huge form of self-love so. from a spiritual point of view also. meditation is my everything some people. are really avoidant of like that time. with themselves though i think it is. because sometimes when i talk about.

meditation the a common response i get. is. oh i'm not good at that that doesn't. work for me and i ask why and they say. well i i can't turn my brain off i have. all these thoughts that go in my brain. and then so i'm not doing it right and. my response to them is who says that's. not right. maybe what you need is to hear those. thoughts maybe you've not given your. brain a chance to get those thoughts out. and what you need during meditation is. to hear those thoughts who says that's. wrong. the only thing meditation the only i'd. say if there's one rule of meditation is. just spending time with yourself. whether that's you hearing these. thoughts that are uncomfortable it's not.

about problem solving it's not about. solving everything it's just about. giving time to yourself allowing. yourself the space and energy to be like. i care about myself i dedicated these 15. 20 minutes to hearing myself out that is. the only. only thing. in the book as well i think chapter six. you start you talked a little bit about. your difficulties with making friends as. an adult yes. uh yes so. um one of the things that i have come to. terms with is that i like i've been. mentioning i'm a very all or nothing. type person across the board and it has.

been good in some instances because it. has allowed me success in my career but. is bad in some instances because. when human things don't live up to my. expectation i write them off in. situations where i don't have to. um i'm throwing a party. uh this party has to be the best. everyone that rsvp has to show up and if. they and so i'll throw this amazing. party that everyone has fun at but if. one person didn't show up that said they. were gonna show up. in my brain i go. well it was nothing it wasn't good it.

wasn't exactly what i thought if it's. all or nothing there's no middle i have. learned that that is not healthy and. that it and that that also hinders me. because there will be no joy and. there'll be no celebration there'll be. no progress if you're all or nothing i. did that with friendships. i told this to jay jay is my friend in. l.a but for a long time i struggled. because my definition of friendship was. all which meant you have to know me. since i was a kid you have to know me. before i was famous you have to know me. before all of these things so that's a. true friend and so my definition of. friendship was very rigid.

and so when i met jay later on in my. life i struggled with that because i was. like he's such a good friend he's so. supportive but ah he didn't know me like. how my other friends know me from back. in toronto so i i don't really know if. this is a real french no you gotta let. go of these definitions and these labels. we put on things and. and be a little more organic with things. because that's where humans lie in that. compromised organic space. when i heard the thing the analogy you. gave about the party one person not. showing up and you being like well yeah. it's not perfect yeah um that sounded.

probably. like also the underlying reason why you. were so successful yeah that's what i'm. saying so that's why it's been so hard. to challenge that belief because it has. served me so well so i think now what. i'm learning is when that serves me and. when it doesn't that's actually been a. lot of my work in this book it's not. being mad at myself or having certain. thought patterns and not trying to. completely do a 180 and be like now i'm. not that person anymore it is learning. which ideas. serve me well in certain circumstances. and which ones do not it's unlearning.

this idea that i have to be one thing. all the time for example. speaking of labels i call myself a. hustler i hustle really hard as i hold. my whole brand and i found that on days. when i was lazy and i felt like just so. tired there would be a lot of resistance. in my brain because i wasn't living up. to my own label. i was. doing the opposite of this label i put. on myself but i've learned you cannot be. everything all the time we exist on. various places on various spectrums and. so it's not about changing who you are. as a person it's about learning.

what ideas serve you well in certain. circumstances and which ones do not and. then. on and off on and off on. have you got a lot of friends. people might think i have a lot of. friends i wouldn't say i have a lot of. friends i think i have a good number of. friends. and it depends how i define friend. people that i can call just to call and. ask how they are without an agenda for. the phone call. like five. four five. i think that's a good number i'm not mad. at that number.

yeah i mean it's a good number i think. especially as we get older i mean jay. we're talking about jay shetty by the. way um me and jay were talking about. this the other day about how when when. you get older in life as well the the. amount of friends you have it becomes. increasingly harder you don't have the. work thing you don't have the university. school whatever so really it's more. about depth and quantity as opposed to. your producer it's also a little bit. about um. at least in my experience. watching the adults in my life as a kid. they never prioritize friendship and. they never place value in friendship and.

so i believe for a long time that as you. grow up. you need to value. the companion you have as a partner and. that takes the place of friendship and. you don't have time for friendship. because you have a job i have since. unsubscribed to that idea. um. i never saw anyone value friendship that. doesn't mean i can't value friendship as. an adult and i've actually learned this. from jj is very good at maintaining. friendships jay's the type of person. that will message you with no agenda. you're like hey just checking in just. saying hi so i've started to reciprocate. that to him and call him and facetime. him just be what's up. but that's something i had to actively. learn because growing up i don't think i.

could name one adult that was like i'm. going to go out with my friends. were you comfortable with friendship in. both platonic and romantic. were you comfortable with it because i. remember think because i grew up in a. similar way i genuinely would cringe and. feel deeply uncomfortable when someone. said the word best friend oh i don't use. the term best for anyone today even. today i tell you this steve is my best. friend and my body oh my god i'm so glad. you said this because everyone knows i. do not use unless you're talking about. my dog who can do no wrong i do not use. the term best friend because i do have.

this little bit of like. cringe-ness where i'm like that means i. rely on you and work with the head and i. don't know if i want that so there is a. little bit of work to be done there. still um. but yeah that's interesting i thought. that was only me no yeah i think i said. this to a couple of guests and you're. the first one to 100 100 people that are. like oh they're my best friend i'm like. oh it sounds dangerous but that. i i've learned that with that comes a. commitment issue romantically so i i. also would run from any prospect of sort. of romantic commitment because that also. it felt like a. bird trapped in a cage it felt like.

prison to me so in the same way that. friendship was just like yeah. i think it's because my parents weren't. affectionate they weren't affectionate. at all to be honest we didn't have that. very close relationship that a lot of my. white friends did i don't even call my. mum and dad mum and dad i call them by. their names i mean you probably can't do. it no i could never did i get slapped up. in the face if i did that it was just a. distance also what it is is. you know i talk a lot in the book about. unsubscribing to ideas that do not serve. us but i encourage people to look at. everything in their life as an idea. a lot of things we think are fact and.

our rules are just ideas they're still. just ideas so what we even think of. friendship's supposed to look like what. we think a relationship is supposed to. look like how we think a romantic. relationship is supposed to be those are. all just ideas and i think because i. thought they were facts like it has to. look one way i resisted that a lot just. like i did with friendship i just told. you with a romantic relationship i do. the same thing that means that you have. to sacrifice a lot there's a lot of. compromise you can design any. relationship the way you want as long as. two people are on the same page so i. encourage everyone to think about that i. think what has really helped me get over.

some of the anxiety with commitment. relationships is it doesn't have to be. this idea of what i think it doesn't. need to be this one way i can design one. that works for me and someone else as. long as we're on the same page. i'm trying to figure out where to go. with this because i want to go down the. relationship route but i'm also gonna. there's a there's a point you're talking. about unsubscribing from ideas one of. the ideas you talk about unsubscribing. from in the book in chapter three is. about the the idea of success and what. that is and the definition of it if lily. at 60 years old told me she was. successful. what would that mean.

see if you asked me this years ago i. would have answered this question. in relation to accolades i would have. said numbers i would have said oh that. means she's made had made several movies. that are box office hits. now my answer and i it's been a hard. journey to get here but genuinely my. answer is that at 60 year old 60 years. old i still fully understand and believe. i'm a complete human being and. everything that has happened is just. extra cool stuff my goal is to never.

write another book. truly. i know i said that after my first book. and i'm saying it again right now my. goal is that this book can be can be the. blueprint for that safe place in my life. forever that i never have to. make another blueprint that is true if i. never write another book again that. means that i was successful in this week. so truly 60 years from now i want to. know that i'm fully complete and. anything that would have happened or. didn't happen was just life experiences. goals cool stuff but it's not i'm not.

lesser or more because of it. relationships then romantic ones yes. have you been uh. difficult to date. difficult to find romantic love. probably. absolutely i'm sure all of my exes right. now were like do you have to think about. it. absolutely if i asked your exes. why it was you were you know in their. point of view why you were difficult. what would be the common response the. most common response.

that. a few things. one would be that i have an inability to. forgive. ooh i do. um. that i am very transparent about this. might scare people off but as soon as i. know i'm going to get into a. relationship with someone i very. honestly tell them i say. one of my weaknesses is that if you lie. to me or wrong me and betray my trust it. is very difficult for me to trust you. again even if every part of me wants to. i will not be able to and i tell people.

this very very honestly where does that. come from i'll tell you right now um i. didn't know first i thought it was like. oh from my childhood from this was but. no i think that's all a lie. i think my inability to forgive people. stems from my inability to forgive. myself. i think that because i expect perfection. for myself and i for so long didn't give. myself grace to be human i didn't give. people grace to be human either and as. i've done the work to treat myself like. more of a human and to be and to to have.

the inner dialogue of like it's okay. it's okay you don't always have to be. performing you don't always have to be. perfect you're allowed to be a human. you're allowed to be lazy or allowed to. be flawed the more i've done that work i. have given people permission to do that. as well in my relationships i've noticed. since writing this book one of the. biggest changes i've seen in my. relationships is that. i can actually forgive people now. and i think it's because i've learned to. forgive myself. i've learned to embrace humans for being. humans and that started with myself so. that is something that nx would. definitely say.

also with the fact that i have very high. expectations all of my exes will say i. have absurdly high expectations. ouch yeah. that's a tough one the expectation one. are you in love now. i'm in love with. myself. which is the most important love i think. and i think that's perhaps why i was. never a good partner before i don't. think i was ever. unconditionally in love with myself my. love for myself is always very. conditional.

always based on my performance always. based on my ability to. accomplish never just for like the. things that were me. yeah you know you had such a high. standard for yourself you talked about. that obsessiveness and even that the. party if one person's not there it's not. perfect. are you saying that that same level of. expectation would sometimes be mirrored. onto the person you would expect them to. be 100 wildly ambitious or because i had. this perspective i'm like why aren't you. changing the world why aren't you some.

of my past relationships definitely it. would irk me if i was working. and the person i was with was not and i. don't even mean had a job i mean if i'm. working at two in the morning you should. be working at two in the morning we. should both be equally as ambitious that. i i notice that sounds ridiculous and. i'm admitting that i was wrong and. that's not a good perspective to have. but that's how i felt like i want. someone equally as ambitious since then. what i have learned. is that what i thought i wanted if i was. actually dating someone that was just. like me that would be horrific me and. jay talk about this all the time.

me and jay talk about how. both of us in some part of our life. thought that we wanted to be with. someone just like us me and jay are so. similar. we in any time anyone is having a. disagreement we take the same side we. always have the same perspective we're. so similar. and since meeting jay i've learned that. oh if me and jay were in a relationship. we would kill each other we would. actually hate each other because there's. no balance there. you need someone to balance you out and. bring something else to the table amen. and i have fully acknowledged that now.

and i think i was a little delusional in. some of my past relationships thinking i. wanted me. but i don't who that no none of it you. might think you want that but you would. kill that person you're totally right. you know my girlfriend now is very much. in every way the opposite of me and that. is in fact as you've described that is. actually the value of our relationship. is one plus one e will equal three when. we have different perspectives and. healthy debates around things like that. right um. i've never asked anybody this question. before but oh my god i love it hit me. what is the the one question because i.

when i saw that you've done it you know. you're on a book tour at the moment. you've got a great book that's that's. just come out april 14th yeah and on. that i was watching you do all of these. interviews and doing some great shows. and things and i was thinking to myself. having been in this process over the. last week where everyone's asking you. questions. what is the most. uncomfortable question. you think that i could ask you. that would make me feel uncomfortable. yeah. it can be a topic.

or a question you kind of already asked. it to be honest. for me it's it i get very uncomfortable. when we talk about people critiquing. things i worked very hard on because. those are my babies my projects are my. babies and. it. to be just really blunt it hurts my. feelings and i think i thought for a. long time i had to put on a facade that. it doesn't hurt my feelings but it does. i think i am a sensitive artist in a lot. of ways and so.

the question you asked about people. criticizing the show i think that is the. most uncomfortable question you could. probably ask aside from that. another really uncomfortable question. i have been asked this though is. in the book i talk about. my experience coming out to my parents. and that is really uncomfortable because. i'll just be really honest a lot of. times when anyone tells a story about. their coming out experience people's. instant reaction is you're right. everyone should have been very. understanding you should have been cared.

for and nurtured accepted right away. that is the default answer. it was a very difficult thing for me to. do. to go against that and in the book talk. about how i was wrong in that moment. um because i. didn't do that before i came out to my. parents i. was offended by their. lack of instant accom accommodation and. celebration they were very supportive. they said everything that they knew how. to say at that time but because it was. not instant celebration.

i judged them harshly for that and. that's a hard thing to admit when. you're the one coming out because by. default like i said everyone thinks. you're right and everyone thinks you. should be celebrating accepted right. away and to actually challenge that idea. and say no actually that's not where. humans operate from this place of. instant knowledge and accommodation it's. actually a learning process and we. should meet in the middle and we should. be compassionate that's not a popular. opinion i don't think. and so that was difficult for me to talk. about.

it's definitely the most. mature. useful position and you've expressed at. the very start of this conversation when. you highlighted your parents context. in regards to the potentially the. mistakes they made and the lessons they. taught you before the age of 10. and you. talk about that in the book as well. understanding the having empathy for. their context right and how that formed. their reaction to that situation i think. is just the most. amazing place to be in because then you. you don't i mean the first thing that. comes to mind is you're not going to. walk around with resentment that they. weren't you know they weren't perfect as.

you might see in like a fake movie or. something. but also it i think you can have better. communication when you when you are able. to. lean into their world and understand. them and and it tends to be the case. you'll know because i haven't my mom's. from nigeria i was born in africa like. in all facets of like the the first. generation second generation immigrant. story you actually tend to both want the. same thing mm-hmm so your parents would. have different ways of going about it. yeah right because as you say like often. they don't know about youtube so doctor. or lawyer was the path to this.

the happy successful secure life right. and i think immigrants like i had to. with my mom when i said i'm starting a. business i'm never speaking to you ever. again you didn't speak for two years not. just that i'm going to tell all your. family not to speak to you. sadness. having it took me a long time to get to. the place you got to yeah it took me. long too i also for two years was like. held again resentment against my parents. um and i created that drift and. that was how i learned this lesson and i. think it's also because. the world today the internet today.

social media today it really really. encourages us to label situations. conversations and things very easily. right wrong cancelled you made a mistake. you cannot redeem yourself you are now. bad you are now good that is not how. humans operate it is not it is not a. realistic lens. through which you should view humans you. know. to. expect people to know everything you. know without having your lived. experience is a really entitled place to. come from and i'm even going to. challenge people online that cancel.

people for saying incorrect things and. behaving in incorrect ways and the. person can apologize over and over again. we don't accept apology we're creating a. culture of expecting other people to. operate from our lived experiences how. is that possible. how is that remotely possible my mom did. not grow up with lady gaga bops. she did not grow up with queer culture. so for me to expect her to operate from. a place of my lived experience how is. that math ever going to add up it's. never going to and i know online we like. to sit on our high horse and think it.

will but it will never it will never add. up. that's an unpopular opinion i'm sure on. twitter but that's okay i will die on. this hill no i think it's popular it's. definitely a popular opinion here. because okay. um so when you look off into your future. you've got a lot going on movies disney. plus there's all these other things. happening in your life now what is the. next. and i'm i'm scared of us sort of falling. into accolades and numbers and yeah. accomplishments no that's not what is. the next there's a time and place for. those conversations i'm happy the goals. that i have for myself are.

um associated with. elevating storytelling so i do. definitely want to be on screen and. behind the camera and produce and write. and start in stories that highly. underrepresented voices that is. something i'm really passionate about. because i believe stories make the world. go around stories are how i understand. myself and other people and i think. there's not every story has to be about. everyone but there should be stories for. everyone and so i'm very passionate. about that so and i just love being. creative in that way so i think. acting producing.

i have a book club called lily's library. that's all about south asian stories as. well that's just something i'm that's. just what i'm most passionate about so i. think most of my goals will align with. that. lily thank you for writing such a great. book and i think there's going to be so. many people that are listening to this. now that have heard the context of the. the journey that led up to you creating. this book that might be having questions. about their own foundation. and i also will say i don't know if you. can see if anyone was watching this it's. a short read it's a short concise and i. guarantee you you will hear my voice.

reading it to you because i've written. it in that way. so how many pages is that anyway 93. neither you golf an hour an hour read no. it is it's really it's really digestible. it's the type type of handbag book that. you could travel with and really um if. you're one of those people that doesn't. like tiny letters and thousands of pages. this is definitely a book for you and. it's written from such a place of as. you've expressed today self-awareness. wisdom and vulnerability and those are. always the best books because they are. the truest and the most necessary. so thank you for creating a wonderful. book we do have a closing tradition on.

this point let's do it which is the. previous guest that's the question for. the next oh nice okay. how many times. have you been. properly. in love. i'm gonna say. perhaps. including in with myself three times. and i'm not just thinking about love. romantically i don't think love is just. romantically i think one time.

romantically. i think one time with myself. and i think. one time after writing this book truly. truly truly. when i saw my mother for all the glory. that she is like i have no problem. saying i'm in love with my mom and the. person she is. um. i was gonna answer with a higher number. but for me what translated what i the. synonym i used for properly was. how many times have i been in love.

where both people in the equation became. better versions of themselves. and that's what eliminated a few of the. a few of the numbers i think in every. scenario i'm talking about both people. were better versions of themselves. because of the love. it's a beautiful answer yeah once. romantically it once romantically. figure out which one of you. you know who you are. thank you thank you thank you so much i. appreciate this is such a joy thank you.

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