Jordan Peterson: How To Become The Person You’ve Always Wanted To Be | E113

If you want to know something about. yourself, sit on your bed one night and. say, "What's one thing I'm doing wrong. that I know I'm doing wrong that I could. fix that I would fix?" You meditate on. that, you'll get an answer, and it won't. be one you want, but it'll be the. necessary one. When you're trapped, some. of it's your own inadequacy. What you. can do to begin with is every bloody. thing you possibly can do to put. yourself in the most virtuous and. powerful negotiating position possible. Wherever I go in the world, [music].

people come up to me, and they often. have a pretty rough story to relate. It's an awful thing because you see, even in the revelation of their triumph, the initial depth of their despair. So, I wouldn't change that. But, it's not nothing. It's certainly not just happiness. It's better than happiness, but it's. almost unbearable.

Quick one. Can you do me a favor if. you're listening to this and hit the. subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this. podcast? Thank you so much. The conversation. you guys have been waiting for. I say that because of the thousands and. thousands of messages I've had since I. announced that Jordan Peterson, the man. himself, all the way from Canada, came. here to sit in my kitchen. and have a conversation with me. And what a conversation it was.

One of the most moving moments in the. history of this podcast takes place in. this conversation. And I think the thing that people love. about Jordan Peterson is his unrelenting. desire to just say what he believes to. be true, not what he believes to be correct, not what people want to hear, not what people will be happy to hear. And it's because of that, it's because. of his pursuit of truth, that he's managed to change millions and. millions and millions of people's lives.

That is absolutely no understatement. So, without further ado, I'm Steven. Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening. But, if you are. then please keep this to yourself. [music]. [music]. Jordan, um first I feel I feel like I owe you a. debt of gratitude and I want to say. thank you for the the impact you've had. on my life and I'll I'll point at the.

the specific impact you've had on my. life. Um. I and you asked me before we start. recording why this podcast had been. successful. One of the reasons is. actually something I've I've gained from. from reading and listening to your work. and that's this real commitment to. trying to be your true self and trying. to be your truth. This podcast wouldn't be successful and. I wouldn't have been successful in terms. of um pursuing myself had I not. understood the the importance of truth. across all facets of life and in my. relationships, which was a real pivotal. thing for me.

Mhm. And that's thanks to. changed in your relationships as a. consequence of that? So, um. W-. I I believe it's really difficult to. truly connect s- with someone if you're. not b- speaking and being your truth and. I I wasn't. I was I I think I was. wearing a mask in my relationships in. the context of I didn't express how I. was thinking and feeling. I was trying. to be who I thought my partner wanted me. and at the point when I like I let down. the mask and I started speaking my.

truth. Unex- actually as I was departing from. the relationship the relationship got. stronger than ever before and it was. like we were never actually connected. until I was being true with her, with my. feelings, with what I wanted, with my. life. And since then, I I would. categorize my relationship as being the. strongest thing I've ever seen in terms. of a romantic connection with someone. And so, when you were starting to talk. in your relationship in a more truthful. manner, what did that mean that you had to.

admit? I mean, you just said that part. of it was a disconnect between who you. were trying to be and who you really. were. So, that's a persona issue, right? So, you think maybe and everyone has. this proclivity to some degree as. they're deeply. um self-conscious and uncertain. And so, instead of allowing the person they're. with to connect with that underlying. uncertainty and inadequacy, they. act out a persona. And then the problem. is is that well, perhaps the person. falls in love with that persona,

but there's no real connection there. It's it's an artifice. And you know, having said that, one of. the things that Carl Jung, the great. psychotherapist, said about a persona is. don't be thinking that you're better off. if you never formed one. So, for Jung, it was a voyage from. say, undifferentiated self in infancy. and so forth, through persona to. authenticity. Because you have to act.

out your ideals to some degree, right? And. and and you have also have to formulate. a avatar of yourself in some sense. that's a mediator between you and other. people in casual social encounters. Like, you don't want to walk into the. bank and have the teller tell you about. his or her day when you say, "How are. you doing?" Right? I mean, now and then. that can happen, but generally it's too. much intimacy too quickly. And so, you. need this this functional shell. But,

the problem arises when. that functional shell is all that there. is. And then the real person underneath. is just desperate and and unhappy. because. nothing of what's being acted out. reflects a true underlying reality. What is the consequence, the long-term. consequence of acting? So many people, especially because of the worlds I live. in on Instagram and social media, we we. kind of build out these personas and. then we almost follow the implicit. instructions that come with those.

personas. Well, that's the problem right there is. that well, that that I'm trying to get a hold of. the Disney people at the moment because. I want to do a lecture series on. Pinocchio because I think Pinocchio is. brilliant work of art. Um. and. if you're a puppet and an actor and. Pinocchio is both at times in that. movie, both a puppet and an actor. So. why an actor? Like why is there why is. there something wrong with being an. actor? Well, the first question is,

well, who sets your role? And then the second question is, who's. pulling your strings? So you've put on. this front that is there to make you. popular and sexy and desirable and to. mask from yourself your own. inadequacies, but that's a role. Well, who wrote it and for what purpose? And so Jung said for example that we all. acted out a myth and whether we knew it. or not. And you know, maybe you're. acting out a tragedy. May maybe you're. acting out narcissus.

You don't know. because you've put that you've put that. on yourself in an attempt in some ways. to deliver to people what they want or. more accurately to look as though you're. delivering to people what they want. And. it's not nothing to do that, right? Because at least you're attempting in. some sense to adapt to the social world. Someone who's really infantile and. dependent, someone who's never left. home, part of their problem is that they. haven't crafted a persona. So you don't want to denigrate it. entirely, but it's no substitute for the.

real thing and it turns out that. not only is what we want from each other. the real thing, but that's also the adventure of your. life. And so, if you aren't. truthful, and that means unfortunately, especially at the beginning when you. start to be truthful, it means. deeply coming to terms with your. inadequacies in humility. So, it's very painful. Without that, you. don't have the adventure of your life. You have the role that has been.

that you've. ac- acquiesced to. And that'll take all. the meaning out of your life. The adventure of your life. You say, "Imagine who you could be." And then aim. single-mindedly at that. Um I encounter. these young people who appear to know. who they could be, or they they've. imagined who they could be, but for. whatever reason, they seem to choose the. certain misery of their current. situation, the job that's sucking their. soul out, or that relationship, um over. the uncertainty they'll encounter as. they go on the adventure of their life.

So, what would I say to these young. people who always say to me, "Steve, I I. want to do this." But you can see them. stifled by fear because it's like. Yeah, well, it's like make a plan, man. It's So, when I was. doing my clinical work, which I I did a. lot of career work with my clients both. at a beginner level, I would say, like. really a beginner level with people who. had no employment whatsoever, no history. of employment, who were undereducated, and who lacked every skill you could. possibly imagine. These were people who. were really in dire straits, up to.

people who were operating at the top of. their profession, but who could still. strategize forward. And so, for example, let's say you're at a dead. end in your job. Okay, so, "I don't find my work meaningful." All. right, so that's a problem statement. Like, "Well, why not? I find the work I. do repetitive and boring and without. spirit. I have a bad relationship or a. neutral relationship with my boss who. doesn't know who I am. Um I have problems with co-workers." All.

of that needs to be differentiated, right? And analyzed in detail. So, we might say, for example, let's say you. believe that you're undervalued at work. And maybe you are. What you need to do is you have. something to say. And. we would have to figure out what it is. that you have to say. But it would be. some variant of. I'm bringing more value to the table. than I'm being compensated for. And that's demoralizing me. And it's. also not good for you, you being my. boss, because if I'm actually more.

valuable than is being recognized, then. the fact that you're not valuing me. properly means that I will become. demoralized, I won't work properly, and. you won't get the best out of me. So, it's bad for both of us. And. if your boss is, in principle, not. amenable to such a discussion, then what. you should seriously consider doing is. finding another job. Okay, so let's say we're going to set. you up for this. Okay, this isn't like. next week's enterprise, man. This is. your life.

So, the first thing I would ask is, well, do you have your resume or CV in order? Well, I haven't typed it up for 3 years. Well, what do you think about bringing. it up? Well, I'm pretty nervous about. that because there's some holes in it, and you know, I didn't do so well in. college, and I'm kind of embarrassed. about my resume. It's like, okay, bring it in. Let's go through it. Let's Let's Let's at least update it. Let's look where the holes are. Let's. look at where the inadequacies are as. far as you're concerned, right? This.

isn't my judgment, it's your judgment. Let's walk through those judgments and. see if they're warranted, because maybe. you're just too guilty and ashamed and. self-conscious and anxious, and you're. not. you're looking at your resume more. critically than someone else would. And. maybe there's some holes that you need. to rectify. You know, you're you're at. you you were two courses away from your. BA, and you dropped out, or something. like that. Well, maybe we need 6 months to address that. And at least, even if you can't be fully.

educated, you could be taking some. courses online. And so when you went to. a new job interview and they said, "What. about this hole?" you'd say, "Well, I I. came to terms with that 6 months ago and. in an effort to rectify it, I'm taking. the following courses and here's my plan. for completion." That's a really good. answer. And anyone with any sense who's. interviewing. will accept that as an indication that. although you're not perfect and who is. that you have a good plan and that. you've thought it through. Like that's. the kind of answer that.

in all likelihood will cement your. candidacy for the position. Okay, so now. you're going to go to your boss. Well, you have to have your CV and your resume. in order. And you have to be able to stand on it. solidly and which at least means that. you're prepared to address the. inadequacies in a credible, realistic, believable, and truthful manner. All right. Now, what you do is. apply for like 10 jobs. You don't have to take them. But maybe you have to go to an interview.

or two or three or four and maybe. there's a bunch of opportunities out. there for you that you didn't even know. about. And maybe someone offers you a job. And so now now you can go to your boss. and say, "Here's the situation I'm in here at. work. Um here's my evaluation of the problems. in relationship to me. Here's what I. could do for you if you gave me a 40%. raise and the opportunity to progress, but I'd like to see a plan for that and.

um I've been looking for other. opportunities before conducting this. discussion and I have some.". Mhm. Well, then if your boss treats you with. contempt at that point and doesn't. listen, then perhaps he or she is a. little more narcissistic than might be. optimal and it's time to find a new job. But this isn't something you do. trivially and. so when you're doubtful, say you're. trapped. You ask yourself, "Well, "Why am I trapped?". That's a hard question, right? Because.

some of it's your own inadequacy, a lot. of it, and all of the part of it that. you can deal with is your own. inadequacy. So, even if it's unfair, you know, even. if you're hemmed in for any number of. reasons, inappropriate. like ethnically predicated oppression, let's say, or maybe you live at you're. in a a workplace with that really is. sexist in some fundamental sense. Well, that's not good. It's not just, it's not.

fair, it's it's not meritorious, all of. those things. Man, maybe you shouldn't. be there, but. what you can do to begin with is every. bloody thing you possibly can do to put. yourself in the most virtuous and. powerful negotiating position possible. And you have to think like a snake in. some sense. to do that. You got to get the details. right. You have to be prepared to bite. And and you have to have your eyes on. the prize, so to speak. And people. aren't taught this sort of thing ever,

really. They're not taught how to. negotiate. They're not taught how to. goal-set. They're not taught how to. conceptualize appropriate success in. some broad sense. In some sense, that's. what the humanities are supposed to. teach people. So, on that point of understanding my. inadequacies or someone's inadequacies, I really believe um that it's really. difficult to undergo self-development if. you don't have self-awareness. And I was. I was really trying to understand from. your writings how someone is to build. their self-awareness. It's almost like.

the unknown unknown. If you don't have. it, how do you build the thing? I know a good exercise for that. It's like a prayer in some sense. In. fact, I would say it's proper prayer. If. you want to know something about. yourself, sit on your bed one night and. say to yourself, you got to mean this. Like, you got to be desperate. This is. no game, this. It's like, "My life is not everything I want it to. be and perhaps it's not everything that. I need to be. And by need I mean my life. is so unbearable that.

the suffering that's attendant upon that. is make me nihilistic, cynical, bitter, resentful, homicidal, genocidal, in the unable to have a good. relationship, pro-. prone to punish people for their virtues. because of my jealousy, uh. driving the proclivity to see evil. everywhere except within my own heart. Like these are problems, man. And. you ask yourself, you sit on the bed and. say, "Okay, man, I'm ready to.

learn something. Like what What's one. thing I'm doing wrong that I know I'm. doing wrong. that I could fix. that I would fix?" It's like. You meditate on that, you'll get an. answer. And it won't be one you want, but it'll. be the necessary one. You know, and it it's often. something that will point you to small. things. So Carl Jung said, "People in the modern. world don't see God cuz they don't look. low enough.".

And so imagine you're in your messy. bedroom. You know, and you're sitting on the edge. of the bed trying to have an honest. dialogue with yourself and the little. voice says, "You know, it's pretty disgusting in. here." And you think, "Well, I'm way. above such trivial niceties as. organizing my room.". It's like. Well, that's pride. That's arrogance. If you're above. organizing what's actually yours, how in the world are you ever going to.

organize anything else? And so you get. on your knees and you think, "Well, it's time to. you know, take a brush to the toilet.". And maybe that's where you start. And so and that works. Like that works. You start making those micro. improvements, like real. micro-improvements, real on-the-ground. actual micro-improvements to things you. know that are wrong, you'll improve unbelievably rapidly. Well, you're talking about this sounds. to me a little like um.

an overdose of arrogance and also the. need for humility. Do you think the. Western world suffers from arrogance. because of our. our our relative um. privilege and luxury that we kind of. overlook? well, that's a temptation, right? I. mean, when the when the left radical. lefty types go after people for their. unearned privilege, they have a point. Now, the point is. the existentialists called it. thrownness, which is not.

that's a Heideggerian term. And thrownness is the fact that. we kind of experience life as if we're. tossed into it, thrown into it, you. know, you're you're male and not female, you're. you're Hindu and not Christian, you're. tall and not short, you have an. arbitrary range of talents and an. arbitrary range of limitations, none of. which in some sense you chose. It's the cards you're dealt. Now, some. of those are cards of privilege. You know, maybe you're born intelligent,

maybe you're born symmetrical, maybe. you're born healthy. Um maybe you're. born into a culture where it's much. easier not to be absolutely deprived, maybe your parents are rich. And so, all of that in some sense is unearned. Now, along with that comes a good dose. of existential guilt. Because at the. same time, and this is true for anyone, regardless of their cultural background, the. ground we walk on is soaked in the blood.

of historical atrocity. And so, that's on you. because, you know, people think, well, who's the Nazi? Well, it's the fascist. or it's the or who's the radical. communist? It's the. radical left-wing ideologue. And the. fundamental truth of the matter is. that's best dealt with as a spiritual. matter. Is the adversary is within. Really. Most profoundly. And so you have to take.

the responsibility for that historical. atrocity onto yourself. I was talking to. Guy Ritchie this week about his movie. King Arthur. It's quite an interesting. movie in many ways. And when Arthur, who could be the hero, takes the sword, he's so overcome by. visions of his murderous uncle that he. can't pick up the weapon. Well, think about that. Now, you have weapons. at your disposal, but they've been used by your murderous. uncle.

I dare you wield them? And the answer is. maybe it's easy just to leave the sword. on the ground because you do want to be. responsible for atrocities going. forward. And don't think you couldn't. be. And don't think you might not enjoy. it. And so. the way you pay for your privilege is. with your virtue. I mean that most particularly. You have. these opportunities and this existential. guilt. And the way you expiate that and.

atone is by doing your best to live the. best possible life you can manage, to. speak the truth, to treat people with. respect, to abide by the principles of. the dignity of the individual, and to. put your house in order. And that's how you pay for your unearned. privilege. All of us. And we all have our privileges and our. and our curses, you know. All of us have. that. That's why it's not useful to be. envious of people. You know, you see some You're a young. man, you see someone drive by in a.

Ferrari with a blonde, and you think, "My god, he's got everything." And you. know, the woman in the car is a. prostitute who's got a cocaine addiction. and her her life is just one catastrophe. after another. And he's had to lie and. cheat his way into this position, and. he's afraid that everything's going to. come crashing down on him, and that's. what you're jealous of. And it's just not that. profound. You don't want someone else's fate. Man, your fate's enough. And your adventure's.

enough. It's plenty. It's more than you. can ever fully realize. And so that's also part of the reason. that we all believe that the individual. has some intrinsic dignity. It's Don't. be so sure that your position and your. room is so damn trivial. It might be. your attitude towards it that's trivial. And if you're in dire straits and dire. circumstances, just look at how much. opportunity you have to make things. better. So, not that it's easy. I You don't even. want it to be easy.

No, so. On that point of you you don't want it. to be easy. I really contended with this. idea of struggle and chaos in my life. and the role it plays. And once upon a. time I thought I was trying to. rid my life of chaos and struggle. I. thought that's why I was trying to get. rich and get the Ferrari and the blonde. I thought that would create a life free. of free of struggle. But then I looked. at some studies and I saw heard about. this thing called gold medal depression. when Olympians come back from the. Olympics and they've lost their. orientation. And then the day when.

someone offered to buy my company for a. eight nine no nine figure number, and it. filled me with this emptiness and this. dread. And I and I and I tried to. understand the role that struggle would. would would have to play for me to be a. fulfilled human being for the rest of my. life. Yeah, well, that the the observation. with regard to your company, that's a. that's a great observation. I mean, we're built to walk uphill. And when you. reach the pinnacle of the hill, you want. to stop and appreciate the vision, but.

the next thing you want is a higher hill. in the distance because. it's the uphill climb that it's it's. from the uphill climb that we derive our. value and I mean this technically. So, almost all the positive emotion we feel, especially the the the the emotion that. fills us with enthusiasm and that's to. be filled with the spirit of God, by the. way, because that's what enthusiasm. means. That's. experienced in relationship to a goal. And so, in some sense, and this is part. of the religious enterprise, you want a.

goal that you can never attain. Right? So, you can always move closer to. the goal that recedes as you move. towards it. You think, "Well, that's. frustrating." It's like Sisyphus pushing. the rock uphill, but it's not because as. you pursue that goal, you put yourself. together and your life does get better. and richer and more abundant. That's why. the highest levels of virtue and goal. are in some sense transcendent. You want. them to be above everything you're doing. so you can continually move towards.

something that's more sublime and. better. That's what you are. You're. You're here to live, not to. not to sleep. And the problem with the. vision of mai tais on the beach is that, well, first of all, that's an envision. that's a vision of of drug-induced. unconsciousness. Second, it's only going. to work for about a week. Third, you're. going to be a laughing stock in a month. and depressed and aimless and and. goalless. It's no, that's not It's It's. You want a horizon of ever-expanding. possibility. And so, it does happen to.

people as they cuz they've staked their. soul on the attainment of an. instrumental goal. And it it can be a. pretty high-order goal. It was in your. case. But then you think, "Well, I've Now I'm there. Now what?". Well, the answer can't be. "Well, I'm going to live in the lap of. luxury and never have to leave the What. do you want to be? A giant infant with a. gold with a gold bottle? You never have. to do anything but lay on your back and. suck. It's like. Well, you see the problem with that as a.

as a. as a conceptualization, it's no, you. want to be. like an active warrior moving uphill. with your sword in hand and. that's that's dynamic, that's exciting. and that's why so many young men. disappear into video games. It's that's. all acted out in the video game. So, they have to act that out in their. own life. Not that I despise video games. cuz I don't, but they're not a. substitute substitute for life. They. might be good training under some. conditions for life.

So, One of the things I was also really. really keen to ask you is about the the. what's happened in the world over the. last 2 years. One of the shifts we've. seen in the business world is this move. to remote working and I hate it and I. hate it for a variety of reasons because. I feel like there's very few. institutions in in our in my life where. I have a chance to meaningfully connect. with with people. Dating has become. screens, socializing has become screens. and the office, the institution of the. office in my life was one of the places,

especially as a younger man, where I got. to meet pretty much 90% of my current. best friends and also. partners and and I really worry about um. sitting behind a Zoom uh. doing my work um for for the for the. next 10 years. What is your take on. remote working? Well, I like it and I don't like it. I I think. it's very difficult for us to understand. our embodied environments well enough to. duplicate them in a healthy and.

comprehensive manner. in the virtual world because we just. don't understand what it is that we're. doing when we actually do things rather. than represent them. So, for example, I've thought a lot about online. university. Okay, so then you could. imagine. Well, you can certainly imagine online. lecture courses. Uh and you could say, "Well, the fact. that they can be delivered on a large. scale. very inexpensively is a virtue. You can.

bring the knowledge to a very large. number of people at a low cost, so why. not do that?". And so that's half the university, and. then you could say, "Well, imagine that. you generated the system of universal. tests, which is a possibility, and that. means you could bring accreditation to. everyone at a low cost as well, and. that's that. Universities are online.". But that presumes that you know what the. university is, and you don't, because. well, here's some other things the. university is.

An excuse for young a credible excuse. that's socially sanctioned for young. people who have not yet established a. career goal to adopt an identity of. upward striving for 4 years away from. their parents while they meet a new. group of friends. Like that might be 90% of the university. for all we know, because it's certainly. the for me, for example, when I went to college, I I left home when I was 17, and I left. a small this small town I had grown up. in, and in many ways I left the peers.

that I had been associating with. Now, a. couple of them came to college with me, so I had a toehold there, but I made an. entirely different group of friends, and. they were friends whose goals were quite. radically different from the friends. that I, let's say, in some sense left behind. Well, the reformulation of my peer network. might have been the most important part. of of the first part of my education. Now, I was fortunate at this place, it. was called Grand Prairie College, I had.

seven professors. Seven, which is really good, who really. loved to teach, and so I also learned a. lot in the formal sense, but while I was. doing that, I was also negotiating. Well, how much partying do you actually. do? Cuz zero isn't the right amount, but. every goddamn night till 3:00 in the. morning isn't the right amount either. because you have to balance that in some. sense with practicality and upward. striving. And so, and and how do I live. with other people? My roommates. So, I.

had one roommate who's a really good. friend of mine still, and he walked a. thousand miles with me this year when I. was ill, literally. So, um I really like living with him because. he was tough guy, worked in lead. smelters, and. he was a cowboy, and he was a tough guy, 4 years older than me, about 3 years. older than me. He'd come back to school. after bouncing around through these like. tough working-class occupations, and he. had his feet on the ground in lots of.

ways, and. I really liked him as a roommate because. I'd buy some groceries, and. then he'd buy some groceries, or I'd. make dinner, and he'd make breakfast. And none of that was ever explicitly. negotiated. He was just very aware of. this reciprocal It's reciprocal. altruism, technically. He was very. good at. We were both good at tracking our mutual. obligations and fulfilling them. So, we. had a very peaceful relationship. I. lived with him for a year, and and then.

a little bit in different at different. times and in different places. And I I. learned to. live with a whole variety of roommates. I've had many roommates. Uh. We had a kind of a frat house in the. first college I went to, and I think. anywhere from six to 20 people lived. there depending on the week, you know? It was really It was ridiculous. It was. way too much fun. And that was also a problem, but. when I look back on that time in my. life, I certainly can't reduce the. educational experience to.

virtual classes and virtual tests. That's Maybe that's 10% of it. And we. don't know how to replicate those. environments that are so formative, especially in in their everydayness, you. know, cuz you live with your roommates. That's a 24-hour thing. And so, the problem with virtualization is that. we don't understand our environments. well enough to be certain that we're not. excluding something vital when we.

concentrate only on what we think. conceptually is important. Now, I meet with my son pretty regularly for. a project we're working on, which is an. app that will teach people to write. while they write and use it. So, we're. quite excited about this, but I meet. with him virtually once a week. And it's. actually very efficient. He's on the. screen, we can see our project in front. of us, we can do mutual editing of some. of the of the underlying material,

educational material. There's a real. place for it, and. I have a cottage up north in Toronto, where we've set up a studio like your. studio here, although ours isn't quite. as impressive, but I can. have an. interview and discussion with anyone. anywhere in the world, even in a foreign. language, and that's like unbelievably. remarkable. But but. that doesn't mean that. we know how to virtualize reality or. that we should flee into it, right? And.

these new technologies, they're. unbelievably radical, and they're very. hard to master. And so, we all have to. be careful and try to keep our feet on. the ground to some degree when we're. using them. So, for example, now, I've. really only figured this out in the last. 3 months, I get up and I I do a series of. exercises that my wife taught me that. are based in the Kundalini yoga. tradition. That's real helpful, flexibility and breathing exercises. That reduces my anxiety during the day,

I would say about 25%. And then I try to. reserve some time either for writing. or I'm working on a number of artistic. projects and so I'm going to do one or. or those for a couple hours in the. morning and then maybe a walk or. something with my wife and breakfast. I. breakfast during all this. And then I can turn to. the sort of connected world, email and. the podcasts and so forth and so there's. this balance between privacy,

introverted privacy let's say, and. disconnect from everyone. except for my wife and then uh. contemplated. reconnection with the virtual world. That seems to be working out pretty. well. Um you want to get a balance of. that that's actually to use a terrible. cliche sustainable, right? So you want. to hit your projects hard. but you have to. leave in that. not with entertainment but with culture. because those are not the same thing.

Um entertainment is an approximation to. culture. And you need to leave in that. with culture that's beauty and drama and. art and all of that and then with. intimate relationships and friendships. and. well, it's very difficult to get the. balance of all that correct and. it's very difficult to do that. virtually. So but I certainly wouldn't. forego the technology and neither would. the rest of us. It's like people. complain about their phones but they. carry them with them everywhere they go. and I'm not cynical about that. The.

phone, it's not a phone. God only knows. what it is. But it's definitely not a phone. And so it's not surprising that since it. just appeared and it's so insanely. powerful that we don't know what to do. with it and that might even wreck. everything. Like God only knows, Twitter. itself could bring civilization to a. halt. We we don't know how to manage the. unintended consequences of our. technological prowess. And that's exactly it. That's it's the.

we we invent technology often it seems. for efficiency or to increase. productivity and it's almost impossible. because of that ignorance to what the. um the unintended consequences might be. to predict them ahead of time. So, we we. optimize. doctrine of conservative political. philosophy, right, is. beware of unintended consequences. It's. like, "Oh, no, this thing will just do. what I want it to do and nothing else.". Like. No, even Marx knew that wasn't true. Marx Marx developed the concept the.

concept of alienation. You know, we get. alienated from our the products of our. effort. That's part of the reason he. didn't like factories and. uh. and and fair enough, you know, because. factory work, which is repetitive, in. some sense destroys our artisanal. relationship with what we produce. Now, the the problem with Marx's analysis is. that. yeah, but it's pretty damn efficient and. it lifts people out of absolute poverty. really quickly. So, but that doesn't. mean that and existential philosophers.

after Marx developed the concept of. alienation to quite a high degree. And technology does alienate us. because of its artificiality and its and. its and its coldness and its mechanistic. nature, all of that. And. well, we have to contend with that. wisely and. then you ask, "Well, how do you contend. with things wisely?" And I would say, "Well, don't pollute your thoughts with. deceit. You compromise your own wisdom. How are you going to make intelligent. not intelligent decisions wise.

decisions? That's why you shouldn't lie. It's like. you're warping the mechanism that. orients you in the world. Do you really. want to do that? This is a brutal world, man, and I've. seen this in my clinical practice. People whose houses are built on. foundations of sand and the wind starts. to blow and the floods start to rise and. they are in such trouble. Such trouble. If you're lucky. and something terrible comes your way. and you're reasonably honest and your. relationships are in good order, maybe.

you won't end up in hell. And and I mean hell. I don't mean death. There's lots of situations you can get. yourself in where death would be far. preferable to what you're going through. So, you you need to be afraid of that. It's like, don't lie. I In my clinical. practice, in 20 years, working with every sort of person you. could imagine, I never ever saw anyone. get away with anything even once.

So, yeah, we're all subject not least to the. judgment of our own conscience. Try to. escape from that. Cuz. no one can escape from that. Over the last 2 years, the world has. gone through this this pandemic. For a. lot of people, this is the first time um. espe- for a certain generation, this is. the first time they've experienced such. unpredictable tectonic um. uh destabilization in their lives. Like, we I didn't even believe society was.

something that could close. I didn't. believe the tech There was I didn't even. know there was tectonic plates under my. business that could shut down my. business, right? And also in your. over the last 2 years, you've undergone. some really, you know, I don't even know. what the right adjective is to use to to. Tectonic's not bad. I We'll go with tectonic then. Um. tectonic, you know, unfortunate um. challenges, I'll say, and in your life, but also, you know, with your family. What are the lessons we learn from.

the the pandemic and from that type of. tectonic suffering about what actually. matters in our lives? Well, we'll see with regard to the. pandemic because. although in some sense it is in some. ways over, our reaction to it is by no. means over. And part of the reason that. we overreacted, I would say, so. precipitously to it is that we were. unprepared for such things in our. naivety. And then we rushed to imitate a. totalitarian society in the immediate.

aftermath of the pandemic emergence. And. that's something that everybody should. think about a lot. And we're not done. with all that totalitarian nonsense yet. A lot of that's driven by. well, fear and naivety. I mean, 50% of. Democrats in the United States believe. you have a 50% chance of being. hospitalized with COVID and 25% of. Republicans believe the same thing. And. you can point a finger at people and. laugh at their ignorance, but you should. really ask, well, why is this.

overestimate. of that magnitude and what does that. mean in relationship to policy? And I've. had conversations with people advising. at the highest level of government, in. particularly in Canada, who've told me. flat out, and they're very reliable sources, that. none of the COVID policy for the last. year was driven by reliance on science. It's all opinion poll. And that's really pernicious because. well, who's asking the questions and how.

did they set up the answer and who's. answering and in what emotional state? And so, to what degree are we led by. considerations of short-term. propitiation of unwarranted fear? Well, that's no way for free people to live. It certainly won't work in the long run. We're already seeing tremendous supply. chain disruptions and likely the. emergence of an inflationary pressure. that we haven't experienced since the. 1970s in the aftermath aftermath of the.

oil shocks. And none of that has sorted. itself out yet. I believe that we will. conclude that our response to the. pandemic caused more death and misery. than the pandemic itself. And we have no end game in sight. Another thing I asked. the people that I was speaking with is. like, "When is this over?". "Well, we don't know." "Well, what would. over look like?". "Well, we don't really know.". And now what you see is this. insistence on about a monthly basis that.

a new and radically different variant. has emerged. And. this virus Viruses mutate all the time, but this virus particularly mutates, and. there are small mutations and. medium-sized mutations, numbers, let's. say, and also effect, and and. larger-scale mutations. When is that a. variant? Well, how about whenever it's. convenient for the pharmaceutical. companies? Think, "Well, that's. cynical." It's Is it now? The biggest. lawsuits in the history of the American.

judicial system have been levied against. the largest pharmaceutical companies on. a regular basis for the last 20 years. And since when. have has it been a proposition of the. political left that pharmaceutical. companies necessarily have our best. interests in mind? Now, I'm not. particularly cynical about. pharmaceutical companies. I think they. have a hard job both in terms of. research and development and marketing. and sales. And they're going to do what. they can to market and sell.

But that doesn't mean that they are now. to be the arbiters of all public policy. because our politicians are too cowardly. and incompetent to do anything but. devolve their responsibilities to. so-called experts, domain experts. Politics is not public health. That's medicine. Politics is. the art of. analyzing the entire situation and. charting a course forward all things. considered. And for politicians to trot. out the experts and say follow the.

science just means that they've. abdicated their own responsibilities. And I think it's appalling. I mean, I'm not convinced that the. evidence that masks work is. scientifically credible. It's certainly. at least doubtful. And that's just. masks. I read a paper the other day. suggesting that. to prevent the transmission of one case. of COVID, you have to lock down a. thousand people. Like, how is that justifiable? Especially given that the mortality rate. of COVID is actually quite low, unless.

you have a pre-existent health problem, particularly obesity, and although old. age also qualifies as it does for most. uh diseases, but not all. And with regards to, let's say, the. issue of child vaccination, it's like. children have an unbelievably tiny. chance of. dying from COVID. I don't think there's. any scientific justification for. immunizing children under 12. Now, at least it's debatable, and I'm. not a domain expert, although I'm a. decent scientist, and I know how to read.

the research material. And so, well, we'll see what we have to learn. from these tectonic shifts underneath. And you know, you might ask yourself, well, was that a tectonic shift in dire. physical necessity because the COVID. virus was genuinely so dangerous, or was. it an indication tectonically of our. absolute inadequacy in the face of even. a moderate existential challenge? And maybe it's a little column A and a. little column B, you know.

So, I have to ask the question, if if we. were to make. you Jordan Peterson the president of the. world, and these were your decisions to. make, do you know what you would have. done um. differently, or in response to this. virus emerging in Wuhan? I would say, well, thank you for the. offer, but I decline the position. And. the reason I would say that is because I. think the right solution to the more. serious problems is to be found at the. level of the individual. So, I don't think.

if I wanted to pursue what I regarded as. the ultimate goal, I the ultimate goal. for me is the encouragement of the. individual. And that's not a. that's not essentially a political. enterprise. It's essentially a. theological enterprise. And politics has. to be subordinate to that. And so, I've. debated throughout the entire course of. my life. whether I would adopt a political. career. It was my initial ambition when. I was very young, 14 I would say.

But when push came to shove at every. decision point in my life, if I had to. choose between. working on the encouragement of the. individual and pursuing a or pursuing a. political career, um. I always chose the. the former. And that's happened every time the. decision has come up. I remember being approached by people in. Canada to. involve myself more deeply in a. practical role, um and also publicly as a political.

figure, but. I'd rather do what I'm doing. I'm in contact with people working. politically all the time, both on the. people in the middle, people on the. right, people on the left. I'm agnostic. about that because I know full well that. conservatives have something to say, and. left-leaning liberals have something to. say. That's basically predicated to some. degree on their temperament. So, conservatives tend to be more.

conscientious, so that's orderly and. industrious, dutiful, patriotic, uh. willing to make and keep verbal. contracts, reliable, capable of. implementation at the level of detail. So, that's kind of conservative virtues. there, but they tend to be lower in. creativity, openness to experience. They. don't think as divergently, and their. conscientiousness tends to constrain. their creativity. Whereas the liberal types, they're high. in openness to experience. That's the. creativity dimension, but they tend to.

be lower in conscientiousness, particularly orderliness. And so, what. that means is. those with a liberal temperament tend to. be creative {slash} entrepreneurs, and. those with a conservative temperament. tend to be managerial and. administrative. That doesn't mean they. can't run. businesses. Well, you want a. conservative person to run your. business. You might want a more liberal. person to pepper you with. off-the-wall ideas. You know, and then. if you're going to run an enterprise, business, or a society,

there has to be a continual dialogue. between people of different. temperaments, so that we can keep the. ship of state, let's say, tracking to an. ever-moving destination. That's why free. speech is so necessary. It's not another. right. It's the right. So, because none of us know what's going. on in the final analysis, cuz the future. is different than the past, really. We have to talk about what to do all the. time. Because even if we made wise decisions.

in the past, that doesn't mean that we. can. mindlessly replicate those decisions. right now in the present to deal with a. changing future. So, I want to help encourage people to. become the sort of people who can engage. in that free dialogue. And I think. that's the best way forward, especially. as we all become more technologically. powerful. It's like, you better be smart enough to use your. iPhone. And that's pretty damn smart, let's say. wise, cuz that's no trivial gadget. And.

if you're not careful with it, it will. turn on you. It will build authoritarian. presumptions into our artificial. intelligence systems, for example. And then look the hell out. So, if you're going to have. a hydrogen bomb, you better be wise enough to wield it. On that point of the encouragement of. the individual, we all have people in. our lives that we want to encourage.

We hope. Yeah, we hope, right? And um. we sometimes fall foul of trying to. force our own bias, our own intention. for them on them. What is the best way. if I've got a friend in my life or a or. you know, partner that I want to. encourage to. Mhm. come out of their place of despair into. a better place, how do I effectively do. that without overpowering them or. stifling them or making them feel. inadequate, which is sometimes the. consequence of trying to change someone. you love? Mhm.

Well, example's good. Mhm. But then, I would say disabuse yourself. of the notion that you know what is best. for this person. You don't Not only do you not know, you. actually don't want that responsibility. For two reasons. Let's say they do what you say, and something good happens to them. Well, whose victory is that? Yours or theirs? And if it's yours, did. you just steal it? And then let's say they fail.

following your advice. Well, they. pay the price for that. And you can skip away merrily and say, "Well, I should have spoke more. carefully." It's like, you don't mess. about with people's destiny. You do not. know where they're headed. Now, having. said that, you do what you're doing in this. interview, in this podcast. You ask people questions. Real questions, you know? Like, "How are you feeling?". "I'm not doing so good today." Well, you know,

"What's up? What's going on?". And you can't think, "Well, I'm going to. ask questions to lead this person in a. particular direction." Cuz that's the. same game, the same instrumental game. You have to see. what it is that you want to know. Cuz. see this, when people ask me questions. after my lectures, you know, now now and. then, or during a Q&A, now and then people. will get up and they'll ask a real. question. It's part of the ongoing. dialogue. Something struck them. They. stand up. There's something they really. want to know. It's an honest question.

And that goes real well, but. not infrequently, someone stands up with. a little prepared speech that's packaged. as a question. So, I get this from. Christian traditionalists fairly. frequently. They get up, and they ask me. about my religious convictions, but. really want they want to do is corner me. into admitting that I should accept. Jesus Christ as my savior and and join a. particular, let's say, uh. um denomination. It's not a question. It's just a manipulation.

And so, your questions, like your. statements, your question should be. honest. And. if you ask people questions, and you. really listen, they will untangle themselves. And that's partly why people love to be. attended to, you know? Like. if I meet people on the street, you. know, I ask them their name. They're all. usually flustered when they come up to. me. They don't really want to interrupt. me, and and then they're flustered. And. the first thing I do is shake their hand.

and ask them their name. And I listen, you know? Not that good at remembering. names, but. I listen to it. And And they know how to. say their name. And so, it kind of. settles them down. And then it sort of. marks them out as a person against the. background, eh? And then, if I really pay attention to. them and listen, they will tell me. something in like 10 seconds that I need. to know. Cuz they are They have something to say, you know? And then, if you listen, people tell you. what they have to say, and then you get. wise, because you collect all that. And so, you want to help someone.

Well, first of all, you would decide. that. you're aiming towards help, right? And And that you do that in the spirit. of ignorance. This is what every good. clinician learns is I don't know where. you're headed. I don't know what's wrong. with you. This is a hard problem, man. It's like, what's your problem? I don't know what your problem is. So, let's find that out first, and then. let's find out. One thing you can ask people, this is. actually useful in an argument with. someone you love. They're they're upset. with you.

What are your preconditions for. satisfaction? Now, I wouldn't state it like that. It's. like, if I could give you what you wanted. right now in the context of this. argument, and I wasn't doing it in a. manipulative way, what is it that I. would have to say or do that would in. principle satisfy you? And that's a hard question, you know? And the person might say, "Well, I think. you should apologize and about this, and. you know?" And I And then I will say, "What words should I use?".

And they'll say, "Well, if you loved me, you'd know." And I would say, "No, I'm. stupid and ignorant, and I don't know. what the right words are to satisfy you. So, why don't you give me a hand with. that, and I'll utter them inelegantly. and awkwardly in a good faith. demonstration of my commitment to peace, and that won't be so good because maybe. it would have been better if I came up. with it myself, but maybe next time I. can do slightly better.". And that works. It It.

requires the person who's after you. to think through. the question even of. whether there's anything that could be. said or done that would satisfy them. And if the answer to that is no, well, probably the relationship is over. But. certainly, the person that they're accusing has. been put in an absolutely impossible. position. But usually, almost inevitably, if the person meditates on it for a bit,

there is something that would satisfy. them that can be negotiated as long as. they're willing to give you the. opportunity to do it, you know, stupidly and badly. So, listening, man. Jimmy Carr, I talked to Jimmy Carr two. weeks ago. He's a comedian. Yeah, he was. it was real interesting. Um, he said comedy is the most. dialogical of. of the entertainment forms. And I. thought, well, what do you mean by that? Because you're just talk. It's a monologue, right? Now, I do.

monologues, but I pay attention to the. audience, right? I'm always talking to. individual people in the audience and. watching the reactions and listening to. the audience as a whole. So, even though. it's a lecture, let's say, or a talk, I'm watching the audience and. responding. So, we're in a kind of. dance. Well, Carr pointed out that. comedians before they hit the road, and. this is virtually in invariably the. case, they have their new routines. So, their. their their corpus of potentially funny.

jokes, and then they do 200 shows in front of. small audiences. And. the audience either laughs or doesn't. And if you're listening, you collect all. the jokes that people laugh at. If you. do that 200 times, you have nothing but. hilarious material. But you listened. And then you can go out on the road. And. that was very interesting to me because. humor is a mysterious. phenomenon, experientially and. conceptually. And it's sort of. precognitive and instinctual, but it's.

also extremely sophisticated. Then. there's an element of transcendence. about it, right? Because you can laugh. at yourself. And that's in some sense. the highest form of humor. And so, it's so interesting that we can. criticize and elevate ourselves at the. same time. And that we find that. intensely pleasurable. And so, a good comedian collects ways to. do that and shares them with the. audience. And he's listening. And so, if. you want to help someone, the best way to help someone is not to. give them advice,

but to listen to them. So. I had a guest actually come on this. podcast Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr was on. two weeks ago and we had a great. conversation about. um happiness and the nature of. happiness. And the guest before Jimmy. Carr wrote in my diary, which is a. tradition we have now where all the. guests that come on write a question for. the next guest. So, there is a question. in there for you. But, the guest wrote a. question um which changed his life, which is um are you happy? And I, from. reading your work and understanding your.

position on happiness and it not being. the thing to aim for, which really. struck me because I thought, you know, [clears throat]. I thought life was the North Star of our. lives was to try and be happy. I guess. my question is. What I was going to ask you that. question? Aim to be good and pray for happiness. So, the question I was going to it was. pretty much that. Is what is a better. question for me to ask you if I'm. checking in on you? Because we ask that. question with good intentions, are you. happy? [clears throat]. What's a better question for me to ask. Jordan Peterson? How are you doing?

How are you doing? Hm? How are you doing? Hm? Brilliantly and terribly. [snorts]. That's. You know, when you listen to a profound. piece of music,

one that sort of spans the whole. emotional experience, it's not happy. Happy is elevator music and. probably you just shouldn't listen to. that at all. Right? And And you think, why? Well, it it's harmless, it's treacly, it's. sweet. Uh. simple, it lacks depth, it's shallow, that's a problem. Um.

It It have that deep sense of awe and. horror, I would say, that is characteristic of the best of. all music. You know, you listen to some. mis- simple music, so-called. Hank. Williams is a good example, you know, the. blues cowboy from the '50s who died of. alcoholism when he was 27 and whose. voice sounds like an 80-year-old man. Simple melody, you know, but. there's nothing simple in the song and.

and in the voice. It's deep, you know, it's like the. blues. It's It's like black blues in the. States from the '20s and it was. certainly influenced by that tradition. There's this. admission of a deep suffering. at the same time as. you get the. beautiful transcendence of the music. And that's meaning, you know, that's. awful in the most fundamental sense, but.

you need an antidote to suffering and. it has to be deep and you know, deep. moves you tectonically and it's not a. trivial thing. And but that's better than happiness. And maybe if you're lucky, while you're. pursuing that and while you're immersed. in it, you get to be happy and and you. should fall on your knees and be. grateful for that when it happens, you. know, it's a gift. It really is a gift. And it comes upon you unexpectedly, your. happiness, you know. But.

you aim to climb uphill to the highest. peak you can possibly envision. And that's that's better than happiness. Why did you include terribly? Well, for example, now when I go. wherever I go in the world, people come. up to me and they're usually. I wouldn't say they're happy to see me. They're often in tears, you know, and they often have a pretty rough story.

to relate, you know, they were suicidal. or nihilistic or homicidal or. trapped, desperate. You know, and they tell me that real. fast. And then they say, I've overcome that to. a large degree and thank you for that. and. and you think, well, that's really. something to. have that happen over and over. In some ways you might think, well, how. could anything better possibly happen to. you than to have people come up to you. all over the world, strangers, and open.

themselves up like that, like they're. old friends, so quickly. But, at the. same time it's an awful thing. because you see. even in the revelation of their triumph, the initial depth of their despair. So, I wouldn't change that. But, it's not nothing. It's certainly not just happiness. It's better than happiness, but it's. almost unbearable.

God, tears again. [gasps]. [laughter]. It's been quite a. 2 weeks in the UK. It's been amazing. It's been amazing. Such a great country, this country. Such a profound place and it was so.

wonderful to see Cambridge and Oxford. and. to be welcomed by the students and. I saw the queues around the block and. the the reaction you got. I watched the. talk in in Cambridge and. um it was so wonderful to see because. it, you know, I know that you don't do. what you do for credit. That kind of. seems to be the you know, the antithesis. of the the pursuing your truth and doing. it for the in the cause of truth, but um. it was so wonderful to see someone that. I know has had such a profound impact on. so many be received in such a way. We.

have a closing tradition. One of the you know, I don't know be. this, but one of the the really great. CEOs in our country, young guy has built. a multi-billion dollar company, really. great guy, sat here yesterday and I. actually told him for the first time who. he is writing the question for and I. couldn't believe his face. Oh my god, that's the one person I want to have. dinner with. This is probably the most. successful young person in our country. Mhm. And he was And so he knew who he was. writing the question for. So, the. question that the previous guest wrote. is for you. Is. Why do you do.

what you do? To see what will happen. Some programs you you cannot predict, right? You cannot predict how they're. going to end. You have to run them. Well, you know, I believe that truth. will save the world. I believe that. So, you speak truthfully. And you watch what happens and you take. your consequences. You know, and maybe you hope and have. some faith that in the final analysis.

things will work out in your favor, but. perhaps they will and perhaps they. won't, but. that's faith, eh? That's faith. It's Faith isn't believing. in things you regard as ridiculous. Sacrificing your intellect. It's. a decision. You know? Will truth, beauty, and love save the. world? Well, you could find out. Thank you doesn't seem to quite cut it.

for the impact you've had even on me and. also for giving me your time. I know you. understand the tremendous value of time. I've I've seen it so much in your work. So, I'm going to say thank you, but I'm also. going to make a commitment to do. something which I think is more. important, which is just to be truthful. And I think with the platform I have in. the years I have ahead of me, maybe. that's the greatest good that I can do. to the world. So, because you've come. here, that's a pledge and a commitment I. want to make to you as my highest form. of thanks that I can give in a karmic. way. Hopefully, that will make the world. a better place for for everybody.

Well, at least it will. help. ensure that you won't make the world. worse place. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. [laughter]. Much appreciated. A huge honor, thank you. Thank you so much. [music]. [music].

[singing]. [music].