Johann Hari: Everything You Think You Know About Meaning & Happiness Is Wrong | E82

the most effective strategies for. dealing with depression and anxiety. are the ones that deal with the reasons. why we feel so bad in the first place. we need to stop asking what's wrong with. you and start asking. what happened to you if you think life. is about money. and status and showing off you're gonna. feel like [ __ ] it's not like i'm. explaining quantum physics right and. we've all had that experience where you. crave a consumer object. you build up to it you get it you get. home and you just feel flat. is it's not the trauma that destroys you. it's the shame about the trauma.

and giving people ways to release that. shame. is an antidepressant god. change is really possible. today we have a real treat for you. this guest today johan hari is one of my. all-time favorite ever podcast guests. ever and i'm not saying that to blow.

smoke up his ass when i had the. conversation with him and when i started. reading his books many years ago. i can quite honestly say that no book. i've ever read in my life has had more. of a positive impact. a more transformative impact on the. topics that matter most to my. fulfillment and happiness. than the work that johann has done he is. a comedian on one hand. he's an incredible storyteller he spends. a decade writing his book so you know. the information he's going to share with.

you today. is both profound it is evidence-backed. and it is compelling. true important and everything that our. society at this point in time. needs to hear this could well be the. most important podcast i've ever. recorded. if you asked me if there was one podcast. that i wish the world's. got to hear it's definitely this one. above all of the other podcasts i've. ever recorded this is the conversation. so without further ado i'm stephen. bartlett and this is the dire ceo.

i hope nobody's listening but if you are. then please keep this to yourself. [Music]. johan it's uh it's a real pleasure to. have you back on the podcast you are one. of my all-time. favorite guests top three i don't know. the order but you're definitely up there. these other two i don't actually. and not just because of the conversation.

we had but because you changed my. fundamental beliefs. around depression mental health. the importance of human connection and. everything in between. and that had a really fundamental. positive impact on my life. it's also you feature heavily in my book. i talk about you on this podcast all the. time. so you know the amount of times i've. plugged so really what i brought you. here today was to get the royalties from. all the friends no but no but i do i. talk about this podcast all the time so. give you an old bag of crisps please.

that's all you're getting that's why i. wanted to get in the podcast because. you know you changed my life and i'm not. saying that's no smoke up your ass i. genuinely mean that. with your book lost connections so the. first question i have is like completely. off track but. i've just finished writing my book. published it's all great and everything. you're. you're onto your third fourth book now. yeah yeah talk to me about why you like. writing books what is it about writing. books. why are you doing that oh for me.

i write books because there's a question. i want to answer for myself that i don't. know the answer to at the start. so we'd lost connections i wanted to. there would. for me there's always a core mystery. that i want to understand right so we've. lost connections to core mystery was two. really simple things when i. when the book came out i was 40. uh all. throughout my lifetime depression and. anxiety have increased in britain. the us crossed the world i wanted to. understand why right why is it that with. each year that passes. more and more of us are finding it. harder to get through the day i wanted.

to understand it for a personal reason. which is that i had been really. depressed myself i had done. everything i was told to do by my. doctors and i remained depressed. or chasing the screen my but before that. um i had a kind of core question which. was. you know we had a lot of addiction in my. family one of my earliest memories is of. trying to wake up one of my relatives. and not being able to. um and i wanted to understand what. causes addiction. and what can we actually do about it i. want to understand a personal level but. also. at a social level what we could do about. it so for me.

i always start with a core question um. so a book i'm been working on for the. last 10 years that i'm sort of writing. at the moment about. um something i have to be careful what i. say about a series of crimes that have. been happening in las vegas. for me there's always a core question a. mystery. and then i'm like okay i want to take. the reader on a journey. as i try to unsolve this mystery i tried. to solve this mystery for myself right. so um all of my books are.

long journeys where i you know for both. books i traveled more than 30 000 miles. went to a crazy mixture of people and. for me the best journeys. are not where you find yourself everyone. goes are you on a journey to find. yourself to me the best journey is where. you find other people. right so i think about the crazy mixture. of people that i've got to know for. these books. who i love who are still you know. important people to me from you know. for the addiction book i think about. chino hardin who's a. trans crack dealer in brooklyn who's one. of the smartest people i've ever met. uh rosalia retta a hitman of the.

deadliest mexican drug cartel. he's unfortunately not one of the. smartest people i've ever met but uh you. know. or for lost connections uh you know i. think about these people will probably. talk about these people in berlin. who transform who's starting from. position a terrible depression. transformed their city in their country. i think about this. couple homeless couple i know very well. in vegas. so for me it's always about finding. people and solving mysteries. and i write to figure out to try to. understand the world and to figure out.

what we can do about the world you know. so for me it's it's. i would i can't imagine writing a book. where i. felt i knew in advance of course i've. got ideas when i start right. i don't start as a blank slate but i. can't imagine writing a book. where i felt i knew in advance i was. standing above the reader and going. well reader you know i mean there are. books that do that you know if you've. been in it i'm a journalist i'm not an. expert. right so if you've been an expert for 30. years on. uh just read a fantastic book about. octopuses right if you guys spent 30.

years studying octopuses. he knows a [ __ ] ton about octopuses i'm. very happy for him to stand above me and. say. let me tell you a little crazy [ __ ]. about octopuses that is crazy [ __ ] right. but that's great it's called other minds. i really recommend that book. um but i'm not that i'm not an expert so. for me it's about the journey come on. the journey with me come to all these. different places. come with me to a favela in rio come. with me to the killing fields in mexico. come with me to a gulag in vietnam let's. go on the journey let's figure out what. the [ __ ] going on. and of all the books and this is i know.

that i can probably guess the response. here they'll hold like i'll choose your. favorite kid. which one oh chasing scream i have a. really easy answer to that. because only because um. so chasing screams a book i wrote about. the addiction and. and the war on drugs and it's because. it's the book that i've. it sounds uh so fagrandizing and wanky. but it's the book that i've seen do the. most good in the world it's a place. where i've been to. so many places where people have used. that book and the things that. to me the happiest moment in any book.

and the whole process of writing. is when so i track down people i think. are really interesting and important. uh so to give an example there's a guy. in vancouver called professor bruce. alexander. one of the most amazing human beings. alive. who did a really important experiment. this transformed how we think about. addiction. called rat park i suspect we'll talk. about it and. bruce you know that experiment was known. before my book and before my ted talks. and stuff. but as bruce says you know it got a huge. boost from that.

and and and that evidence is now used. was used in norway where they're just on. the brink of decriminalizing all drugs. um in all sorts of places in mexico i. remember having a surreal conversation. with some mexican politicians about it. in all sorts of different places. and to me the most exciting moment is. when the people i've written about. get in touch with me and say oh people. are contacting me because of you. because they've read about me and it's. that moment where you feel that you've. been a conduit. between someone who's doing something. really important and.

people who needed to know it and to me. that's like the blissful. feeling you know so chasing the scream. just because. um that's that's what that's the book. i've seen do the most work in the world. you know what i mean quick interruption. today we have luke with us behind the. scenes watching this podcast be recorded. luke is a subscriber of this podcast and. as i said in the previous podcast we're. gonna start bringing in subscribers. to watch the show being filmed to sit. behind the scenes to and to meet me and. the guests. if you want that to be you all you've. got to do is hit the subscribe button. wherever you're listening to this.

podcast. so let's talk about rap park i i read. about this study. numerous times but i think it's you know. you've probably talked about it before. but i think it's so. important and foundational for so many. reasons and and speaks actually speaks a. lot to lost connections as well. in many respects um but i would love you. to tell the story of rap park and. exactly what it what it is. you know rap park was for me i found it. very challenging when i learned about. rap park because i realized. that all my life i've been. misunderstanding some of the things i.

was seeing right in front of me so like. i said we had addiction in my family. we still have addiction in my family. it's very difficult. and when i started doing the research. for chasing the scream god 10 10 years. ago exactly 10 years ago almost. i am if you'd asked me let's say her in. addiction because i was close to me if. you said to me john what causes heroin. addiction. i would have looked at you like you were. thick and i would have said well stephen. the clue's in the name. right yeah obviously heroin causes. heroin addiction right. we've been told this story for a hundred. years that's become totally part of our. common sense it was definitely part of. mine.

so we think we're sitting here in east. london we think. if we kidnap the next 20 people to walk. past your flat in east london. and like a villain in a saw movie we. injected them all with heroin every day. for a month. at the end of that month they'd all be. heroin addicts for a simple reason. there's chemical hooks in heroin that as. you use it. your body starts to crave you want more. and more of them and so. at the end of that month people would. have this tremendous physical hunger for. the chemical hooks right. that's why we call it being hooked um. and that's.

that's the story we have in our heads. now that story is not completely wrong. it turns out it's a very small part of a. much bigger picture. and the first thing that i remember the. first thing that alerted me to that. was in my research i was interviewing. doctors and experts and it was explained. to me right. here in britain if you and me step out. into. the street and we get hit you get hit by. a truck right god forbid terrible loss. to the world. um you'll be taken to hospital and if. you say you broke your hip. you'd be given a lot of a drug called. diamorphine right.

diamorphine is heroin it's much better. than the [ __ ] you'd buy just like the. road from here. on the street because it's medically. pure heroin right. and anyone watching this if you if. you're british and your nan's had a hip. replacement operation. your nan's taken a lot of heroin right. now if what we think about addiction is. right. that it's caused primarily or entirely. by exposure to the chemical hooks. what should be happening to all these. people in british hospitals who've been. given a lot of powerful heroin. some of them should be leaving and.

trying to score on the streets you. should be meeting people in their name. meetings. who say well you know i started i had a. hip replacement. this has been studied very carefully it. never happens right i remember when i. learned that. i'm just thinking the first person who. told me that was dr gabor marte. and i remember thinking saying to him. gabor that can't be right. how could you have a situation where. you've got someone in a hospital bed. they're using a [ __ ] ton of really. powerful heroin they don't become. addicted. and you've got someone in the alleyway.

outside who. you know is shooting up actually a. weaker shittier form of the drug. and they and they do become addicted how. could that be and i only began to. understand it when i went to vancouver. and interviewed professor alexander. professor bruce alexander. so bruce explained to me the story we've. got in our heads that addiction is. caused primarily or totally by the. chemical hooks. comes from a series of experiments that. were done earlier in the 20th century. they're really simple experiments um. your viewers can try them at home if. they're feeling a little bit sadistic.

and bored in. covid times right not heroin is it. no they don't have to try it you take a. rat you put it in a cage and you give it. two water bottles. one is just water the other is water. laced with either heroin or cocaine. if you do that the rat will almost. always prefer the drugged water. and almost always kill itself quite. quickly within a week or two right. so there you go that's that's our story. that's that's how we think it works. but in the 70s professor alexander was. working where i met him on the downtown. east side of vancouver which has a lot. of. he's working with a lot of people with.

very bad addiction problems. and he starts to look at these. experiments and he says well hang on a. minute. you put the rat alone in an empty cage. it's got nothing that makes life worth. living for rats. all it's got is the drugs what would. happen if we did this differently. so he built a cage that he called rat. park which is basically. heaven for rats right they've got loads. of friends they've got loads of cheese. they've got loads of colored balls they. can have loads of sex everything that. makes life worth living. for rats is there in rat park and.

they've got both the water bottles the. drugged water and the normal water. this is the fascinating thing in rat. park. they don't like the drug water they. don't use it very much. none of the music compulsively none of. them overdose. so you go from almost 100 compulsive use. and overdose. when rats don't have the things that. make life worth living. to no compulsive use and overdose when. they do have the things that make life. worth living. and obviously we are not rats we're more. complicated. but the core of this there's lots of.

human evidence that i can talk about. but what what this taught me and a lot. of the other evidence taught me is. the core of addiction is about not. wanting to be present in your life. because your life is too painful a place. to be and. it actually makes you realize why our. approach of punishing people with. addiction problems is such a disaster. actually makes. the problem worse the opposite of. addiction is not sobriety although that. is valuable for some people. the opposite of addiction is connection. and we're living through a great example. of that right now just. just i think two days ago the government. announced massive increase in.

alcohol-related deaths. massive increase in other drug-related. deaths in britain and in the united. states. why would that be right we i think. rightly. in order to suppress the virus which we. had to do we have had to become more. disconnected. and that has caused an increase in. addiction now that tells us something. about what was causing addiction all. along and what the paths out of. addiction are. so i thought it was a very long answer. perfect answer and obviously with the. with that in mind you know covert. has um accelerated the um.

adoption of remote working which i. you know there's been a lot of debate. around that whether it's a good thing or. a bad thing. my stance is pretty clear i think it's. an awful thing and i say this because. you know after reading your book i. understand that um. connection organic connection in our. lives is. has this like has been on this sort of. macro decline and one of the like. institutions in our lives that has held. that together has been the office. so like most of my friends come from. working in a big office. you know if i think about where 90 of my. connection comes it came from the office.

and to think especially as a young. person who hasn't got a family or kids. whatever. that that is also now going to move to a. screen i think is a [ __ ] terrible. idea. to be honest um i wanted to get your. your thoughts on that because i think. i i don't i think people think of the. convenience factors but. we thought of the convenience factors. when we in we created social media and. dating apps and all these other things. but the unintended consequences of the. convenience tends to be. you know stripping us of connection once. again and like what do we have left. like everything else is on a screen now.

so if you take away work from me i'm. like. i probably wouldn't see anybody like. porn you know i can do that online now. dating swipe swipe swipe so it feels. like. you know the last institution of. connection is being uh is that war. i think that's really interesting i. think there's a. there's two things i was thinking about. as you talked about that stephen one is. what a lot of us get out the web the. relationship between social media and. social life. is a bit like the relationship between.

porn and sex and she mentioned porn. because i'm not anti-porn porn's going. to meet a basic itch right. um but no one you know spends an hour. looking at porn and feels. like satisfied and seen speaks me. physically. not the way you do after you've had sex. right unless you're having a very bad. sex step.

in a similar sort of way you know. it's not that the these. a lot of these technologies are attempts. our unhealthy relationship with the. technology itself is neutral. a lot of our relationships with these. technologies are attempts to fill. holes in the way we're living right phil. whole but unfortunately we're talking. about porn but you know what i mean. um the the the and even if you just. think about when the internet arrived. right. the internet arrives for most of us the.

early 2000s or 1999 i got my first email. address in 2000. and a lot of the things that we're. talking about had already. been going rising for a long time big. increase in loneliness before that. and what happens is the internet arrives. and it looks a lot like the things we've. lost right. you've lost friends here's facebook. friends you've lost status in the. economy. here's some status updates but they're. not the things we've lost it's like. giving pawn to a sex starved man in. prison or something. it's not the thing you've lost right i. mean it'll meet a certain basic hitch.

but it's not the thing you've lost. and if interacting through screens met. our basic needs as human beings. we would all be very happy zooming all. the time right sitting on zoom would be. as good as sitting in the office right. you know and people often say to me why. do you travel to so many places. to do all these interviews why don't you. just talk to them on skype or zoom and. always say. because you get 10 of the experience. through a screen people don't open up to. you they don't feel they've met you. i wouldn't remem all these people i'm. describing to you i can picture them so.

vividly. people have interviewed zoom i can never. remember even what they look like right. so these forms of interaction they've. got a place you know look it's better to. have zoom in a time of a plague than. than nothing which would have been the. alternative in in the context of covid. but it's not it doesn't we evolved to. interact. to look into each other's eyes to see. each other to interact in three. dimensions. we did not evolve to interact through. screens it doesn't meet our deeper needs. that is why i've never done this podcast. over zoom despite the.

temptation yeah so we we started doing. in just we started we upped everything. in december and really started going for. it you know built the team and all these. things. and that's obviously in the middle of. the pandemic there's flight restrictions. no one can fly in. and we've got the most amazing guests in. the world that want to come on via zoom. and i just said. i do this because i enjoy it right. that's like the fundamental reason. that's the reason why i'll keep doing it. for the next 10 years. and i would not enjoy doing it over zoom. it would become like a job to me because. i like. meeting people and obviously the the.

conversation we have now. you can feel the emotion you can you can. hear the you know. you can see it my eyes you can see at. certain points you know you can feel. what i'm thinking. and that unlocks for a podcast that's. meant to be a little bit more. um deeper it unlocks that depth we've. had you know. tears and we've had all sorts and i. formed real friendships. from it so many pretty much all of my. guests i feel like i'm friends with it. straight after because of the. vulnerability. so i just i just made a rule that i. would not do anything over zoom and when. people ask me to go on their podcast. over zoom the answer is the same.

i don't want to do it and i with my team. my office is actually downstairs. so we come in every day there is one. thing about work i think everything you. said is totally true. so there's one thing about work i would. say which is a slightly different point. uh but relates to remote working which. is so. uh i mean we can talk about some more. detail if you want but for the purposes. of this part of the conversation. there's a lot of evidence that um. lacking control over your work makes you. depressed. right i'm sure we could talk about that. more um. one thing that people do benefit from i.

think from zoom not actually. funny interestingly not so much in covid. times as evidence people are working. more hours under kobe than they were. normally partly because zoom meetings. take so damn long. um but some people. i think as we come out of this which we. will. as we come out of covid um the pandemic. some people i think would like to have. more leeway about. when they are in the office oh yeah and. would like to and i think.

it's interesting when you look at the. research on this. it's not so much the ratio is it 20 at. home it's whether you can choose. yes it's the amount of agency you have. um. so in that sense i think that's where. and of course we didn't have any choice. about coping but the that's the bit. where i would say. we'll probably have some value going. forward 100 agree. i i actually wrote about um motivation. intrinsic motivation. and extrinsic motivation and one of the. big factors of. people feeling motivated in work is as.

you say autonomy feeling like you have. control of your work and. and that's the that's also the balance. that i've always tried to create at my. companies which is. um one way you can book um as much time. off as you need. without having to put like tell a. computer and ask it for approval. and there is no bitchiness there is no. one that's going to look at you the next. day and be like. oh you've had a couple of days off and. giving people the same level of freedom. that i've always had has been super. important. um but at the same time like i'm i've. been super clear even though it's an. unpopular narrative right now.

i think this remote working future where. you know these companies are coming out. and doing all their virtual signaling. you know whatever i think it's a load of. nonsense and i think they're actually. harming. people by supporting the idea that we're. going to all. especially younger people live our lives. through screens and i think that people. are going to figure this out i actually. think. people have overestimated the stickiness. of remote remote working. because the narrative is companies that. offer remote working. will attract all the staff all the good. talent so you're gonna have to do it.

but i actually think companies that are. able to offer community. and much more than work which is for me. is what a good job is much what's the. it's the friends you make the. experiences you have the challenges. you're. driving towards together the worthwhile. it's like the worth while striving for a. challenge. with a group of people you love for me. that's like become my. my the reason for why i live i i managed. to get it down to those three things. which is. people i love uh worthwhile challenge. right and i don't know how that links.

into your work but that's i think the. most foundational i've managed to get. with like my reason to live is like. oh at least my reason to work so if i. think like. you've gone to a really important um. one of the most important things that. relates to depression anxiety in your. own life. which is meaning right so there's all. this i mean. it's funny exactly a year a little bit. more than a year ago a year and a month. ago i was in moscow. it was the last thing i did before i got. covered it was grim i. interviewed this fascinating uh russian.

psychologist. called um dimitri leontyev and his um. so his dad had actually been a super. famous uh so his grandfather had been an. incredibly famous. psychologist but he's a very. distinguished psychologist as well and. um i remember him saying like um. british and american people british. american philosophy if you go back it's. very often about happiness the belief. that you should try to make yourself. happy. right obviously it's in constitution the. pursuit of happiness right. and he said when russians hear that we. just laugh right that's a child's game.

trying to chase happiness it's the. child's philosophy so. you can't you don't have that much say. about whether happiness will come and go. he said. what life is about is not happiness but. meaning right the pursuit of meaning. and actually when you've got meaning in. your life you can tolerate a lot of. unhappiness. and you even think about something as. simple as uh a dentist or a good example. a dentist drill. right so if i now took out a drill. opened your mouth and. you know jabbed it into your teeth and. it was agony because that would have no. meaning in the context between us it. would be different it would literally be.

torture it would cause you. terrible suffering and you'd be. traumatized for ages but you've been to. the dentist and they've done that right. and it didn't traumatize you most likely. some people do get traumatic dentists. that's a different story. it's rare um why because it had a. meaning right you could tolerate the. pain. because there was because it was for a. purpose all right if i don't tolerate. this pain my teeth are going to get. [ __ ] up right. um it's worthwhile and i think that's. one of the things that's a big. a big driver depression anxiety is one. actually. it was one of the two hardest causes of.

depression and anxiety that i wrote. about lost connections for me to. it was the one one that was most chat. one of the two that was most challenging. for me. was this crisis of meaning so for. thousands of years philosophers have. said. if you think life is about money and. status and showing off. you're going to feel like [ __ ] right. it's not an exact quote from confucius. but that is basically what he said right. but weirdly nobody had ever. scientifically i'm looking to is this. true how do we know. no one had actually scientifically. investigated this until an amazing man i. got to know. named professor tim casa who did an.

incredible amount of. uh spent 35 years researching these. questions. he discovered loads of things but i. think for what we're talking about. there's two in particular. firstly he discovered exactly as the. philosophers warned. if you think life is about money and. status and showing off. all the values you get from advertising. instagram everything like them. the more likely you are to become. depressed and anxious by a significant. amount. and secondly he discovered as a society. as a culture. we have become much more driven by these.

junk. values right they've been rising all. throughout my lifetime. your lifetime and and i was talking. about well why is that right and there's. many reasons that i go through the book. why does that make us feel so bad. um a key reason i think is just. it trains us to look for happiness in. all the wrong places. right you know your technical crew know. everyone knows. everyone watching this knows you're not. going to lie on your deathbed. and think about all the likes you've got.

on instagram right. you're going to think about moments of. love and meaning and connection. um but but as professor casa put it to. me. we live in a machine that is designed to. get us to neglect what is important. about life right. we live in a machine where we are. bombarded more 18 month old children. know what the mcdonald's m. means than know their own last name. right so from the moment you're born. you are trained to think if you don't. feel good there's a solution for that. work harder buy [ __ ] display on. instagram to make people go omg so.

jealous right. that is the script of our society and. it's. it's like kfc for the soul right you're. not going to find happiness there. but the more meaningful values are lying. just beneath the surface right nothing i. just said i mean. it's almost like a hallmark card at the. level of banality everyone knows that at. some level. and yet we don't live by it and this is. true of a lot of things to learn from. lost connections. it's not like i'm explaining quantum. physics right it's not like i'm. not that i could do that it's not like. i'm explaining at noam chomsky's. linguistics or something.

these are things at some level we all. know but we live in a machine like. professor casa put it. we live in a machine that has taught us. to neglect to mistrust our own instincts. about what will give us a good life. and to and to pursue um. other things instead do you know what i. mean does that make sense of course it. makes [ __ ] sense to me. of course it makes sense do you feel but. i really. feel the reason it was challenging is. because i could see. how much of my own life was driven by.

these junk folks i was never a. materialistic person i was never. i was once nominated for an award as the. worst dressed gay man in britain so i. was never like a kind of did you in. material no i was beaten by david. furnish who i've always thought was very. well dressed so. i show so much i know but you know. a big part not i was never like i was. never like trump it was never 100. but a big part of my life. was driven by trying to think about how. people perceive me. managing people's expectations does it.

still. yeah of course it's still a part of my. character but it's a radically smaller. part of my personality than it was. uh 15 years ago because i was thinking. as you're saying that i was just. thinking i was thinking this is also. true but again the question. posed my mind was how would i get out of. the machine. when so much of the things i. enjoy keep me within the machine so. you know i could i could abscond and go. to bali and go and live on a beach and. just. you surround myself with a couple of.

friends and you'd give up my louis. vuitton. shoes i don't have a ton shoes but you. know what i mean give up my lamborghini. which i also don't have. and i could i could escape but much of. the joy of my life comes from doing. things like this having conversations. with people like you which means that i. have to live in london and then to. promote this i'm gonna have to use. instagram and social media and then i'm. gonna get a little pat on the back from. the algorithm if it's good or bad and. and so in the pursuit of some of my. intrinsic joy. and fit goals i i'd have played with. this a lot i. i i'm i'm putting myself in the machine.

and i can't see another way to live. the best i say to myself the best you. could probably do steve. is live within the machine but just live. much more consciously. know that you're in the machine and it's. the minute that you don't know you're in. the machine that the machine becomes. your puppet master. and then i'll start [ __ ] buying louis. vuitton again so it's funny there's. doing things you're saying louis vuitton. because. i once a party met calvin klein and. until that moment i i thought calvin. klein was a fictional character. like rory mcdonald so someone said oh. this is kevin clinton i almost said. i like the clothes and then i was like.

is this. like it was it was like suddenly meeting. you like ronald mcdonald or something. so i think tim caster discovered two. answers to actually lots of answers but. two specific things that he discovered. that i think really help answer your. question so. and they operate at different levels so.

what can we do about the fact we live in. the machine there's two things there's. one thing that's going to sound very big. and is very big which is we can. dismantle the machine. the machine was created by human beings. and it can be dismantled and. again i went to places that have started. that sao paulo. in brazil uh city was full of. advertising it was doing people's heads. in. they banned outdoor advertising people. felt much better do you remember the. campaign that happened here when was it. it's in the books it must have been at. least four years ago five years ago. maybe. there was a campaign on the tubes skinny. too i know this is funny. yeah exactly somebody who don't remember.

there were it was a picture of. a super ripped guy. and a super lean woman and it said. are you beachbody ready right and it was. an advert for some. john i'm so out of touch with sorry i. know. so what was it a protein shake it was. like a a protein a powder. right right right i'm so unhealthy i. don't even know what that powder would. you conceive of what you would do with. that powder except snort it which i. assume is not what you did but.

anyway and city khan just banned it just. said you know what this makes people. feel like [ __ ] it's got an insidious. vile message which is if you don't look. like these people i.e if you're like. 99.99 the population. you're not fit to go to the beach just. banned it there was a campaign to. vandalize. that poster which uh people vandalized. it just with the slogan advertising. shits in your head. so that was a great slogan so you can do. a political thing. we don't have to allow all this stuff. right um and we can build up to that in. all sorts of ways. smaller steps and one is a more personal.

one. and that's something i now do i have a. group of friends we talk you know. once every couple of weeks we talk about. okay what are the times when we've been. tempted by [ __ ]. you know like uh we had the conversation. the other day and one of my friends said. you know oh. she'd got retweeted by some famous. person and it lifted her move for five. minutes and then she was like i need. more i need more i. need more and then we're like okay but. did you write that day she's writer. she said no no it distracted me i didn't. write and we're like. okay but and of course you only had to.

say it don't you oh yeah. that's the thing that gives my life. meaning that's the moments when i feel. flow not the sugar high of. you know um i've tried to remember it. was it was someone really famous. um so just having these so i would say. and and those things are complementary. by the way when we have those. conversations. with the among ourselves it makes us. feel more powerful to take on. the aspects of the machine that are. [ __ ] us up as well what you've. described is like a counterbalance right. because. you've got the machine whispering in. your ear every day every time you log on. social media walk down the street look.

at the internet look at the newspaper. and it's saying bye louis vuitton. [ __ ]. and then what you've described there is. just by having someone. um in your ear once in a while going. down by louis vuitton live your life for. you know intrinsic. your intrinsic values you know things. that actually matter it acts as a bit of. a counterbalance. and it's so true because i know this. stuff. right done a lot of reading about it. your book really helped me understand. it lots of other books i've you know you. talked about um. professor tim casa read his writings. after you wrote about it in your book.

i know this stuff yet. once every quarter i'll pop up in the. whatsapp group with. dom and sophie and i'll go. what about a lamborghini and they'll and. they'll they'll respond to me i mean dom. goes [ __ ] get it because he's this. he's bad egg but um. he's like you might as well know but um. but my all it takes is one of my good. friends to go to me. but why do you need that and i go yeah.

of course you're right but this is what. tim casa puts him really well. i remember him saying it to me we all. have a need intrinsic values but. intrinsic values are very fragile. yeah and they can be very easily. hijacked by. signaling around us which is why. you're right we need to counterbalance. it we also need to. actually get less of this [ __ ]. please right. and that's a social thing that we can. fight for right there's all sorts of. there are countries that regulate these.

things sao paulo banned outdoor. advertising. there's all sorts of things we can do we. but also. um it's not just that we're bombarded. with the advertising. externally we then police that among. ourselves right when i remember when i. was a kid and people were obsessed with. nike sneakers and i was a kind of fat. kid who sat in the corner of reading i. didn't give a [ __ ] about. um uh basketball and yet i wanted these. things right. why did i and it wasn't it partly it was. exposure to advertising. but actually it was more um. the way we police it among ourselves so.

once you set and train those values. people then police among themselves so. that's about how do we undo that and. it's partly about saying people. how does this really make you feel right. very occasionally you will meet an. extremely materialistic person. who will tell you that donald trump. would be a good example right. who will tell you this makes me feel. good and yet you look at them. and you see that they are achingly. unhappy right. i've rarely seen a more unhappy person. than donald trump um.

so you can see but one of the dangers of. these values. is one of the reasons that makes us they. make us feel so bad. is that those values can then pollute. your relationships. when you measure it scientifically. people have high levels of junk value. what called extrinsic values is the. scientific term. people have high levels of extrinsic. values junk values. have less successful relationships that. break up more often. because relationships where you value. the other person for. very superficial external things like. you know do other men feel jealous when.

they see me with this person. um those aren't good relationships right. i've been in uh. so many of them you were nodding very i. thought yeah it's just. exactly yeah no it is and um you talked. about how. you know there's the fear one of the. reasons why people are less happy in. those relationships is the fear that. this person would leave if i lost my. money or my looks whatever. and then you alluded to the point that i. was thinking most about which is. um you formed your connection with them. based on something. basically extrinsic something.

superficial so you have these like. surface level connections. and then your life with that person you. don't your psychological needs don't get. met because you don't have the you know. in my case like an intellectual. connection with them you can't talk. about. the things you want to talk about you. haven't formed that basis on a deeper. level. but then i just wanted to this is if. this was a confession box. here's what i would say in the same way. that as a young. 28 year old guy who's been successful um. uh you know i guess that word in my ear. that just says buy a lamborghini like a.

little kermit every three months. i also get in the same year from the. same little [ __ ] evil kermit. says to me there's that a hot girl. who's completely i don't know i don't. want to get cancelled because i've got. some stuff coming up in the media but. there's that hot girl who has made. herself. look um beautiful on the outside do you. usually see the distinction stephen. right. like there's nothing wrong with sexual. attraction in front of people. we don't want to counter pose a world of. junk values versus puritanism.

do you know what i mean it's like sexual. attraction is one of the great joys of. life yeah. i was just trying to i don't want to i. don't want to say it in in the words. there is that person who offers nothing. more than. um just they look good they offer. nothing more and the same way it says. come on steve go for it. and every time i've gone for it it. doesn't take me very long to be. miserable in that situation. and then on the other hand i've got. these other this other person.

in my life who is the antithesis of that. who is all substance. and um something in my life tries to. sway me back to the junk. people but i think there's a thing about. um i in several ways i think. what you said is really important. because. it's not like there's this category of. saintly benign human beings. who are immune to all these temptations. and you know we need to be more like. that. every human being is a conflict of. intrinsic and extrinsic values and. extrinsic values are.

a certain measure of them is healthy. right desire for external success is. nothing to be ashamed of. uh finding people hot and wanting to. have sex with hot people is perfectly. is something we all have right at the. expense of. a meaningful relationship it's like a. balanced diet isn't it you want to have. um you want these. you want these things to exist in a. balance with. all your other motivations but what i. don't think. what definitely doesn't work is because. i tried this myself i remember.

being quite cut off from my own um. status seeking behavior and sort of. not owning it and i think actually. when you just acknowledge oh yeah this. is part of me this is a part this will. always be a part of me. there are some pleasures to be found. there it's not it's not barren. right um but. you always want that to be one part of a. much bigger picture then you can have a. healthy conversation. with yourself and with other people. about these aspects of yourself that's.

very different to. and especially if you live in a society. and culture that is all about. getting you to be that one thing and you. know presenting as images of success. i mean you and i both met lots of rich. people. and i've got to say they are the most. miserable bastards. or you're one of the very few cheerful. rich people i know right. if i think about says a handful who are. happy and they're almost. always uh i'm trying to think of. i can look well one person who inherited.

it so i don't count that. um some artistic people like a few. people who. pursued their artistic dream like elton. john and became really rich he's happy. after a [ __ ] rocky journey as. everyone knows. and the machine that's [ __ ] us all up. do you believe that because it's. making us all care it's conditioning us. to care more about extrinsic values and. these. like you know all this nonsense do you. think it's in. it's it's hindering our chances of. forming meaningful.

romantic connections i for just from. what i've grown up in this instagram era. where it looks like. everybody's getting prettier on the. outside and everyone's getting uglier in. the inside. because instagram and the machine have. told us that this is what society values. how big is your ex how white is your why. how perfect is your hair you know. so it feels like life is gone okay the. game everybody get in get in everybody. get in okay. you're gonna this is how you win you'll. get the most points in life if you have. the best hair the best uh eyes the best.

boobs you know biggest six-pack. chest that is the game do you understand. everyone's going yeah okay okay and if. you see someone that has that as well. pam on the back and we go okay cool and. we've had ten years of this black mirror. experiment. so all of our values have gone you know. extrinsic and junk values. and i think we're struggling to form. meaningful. connections because that didn't the. machine told us. that didn't matter you know it's funny. after the book came out.

a group of people i did not expect to so. i was. absolutely inundated on it was. particularly my ted talk about it came. out. inundated on instagram by massive. instagram. yeah um start what we call it influences. like really people with some of the. biggest instagram followings in the. world. messaging me saying you're so right i.

feel like and i remember getting a. message i. always say who it was but from someone. who was a big instagram influencer. messaging me saying i'm so depressed. i don't want to get a bed in the morning. my life is terrible i. didn't hear this person also i clicked. on the instagram page and literally five. minutes before sending me that message. and five minutes after. yeah she had done a kind of glowing my. life is you know i can't know the words. but you know kind of my life is so great. um bragging and and i really.

yes but the thing i would say. that is so important about this it's a. funny thing to say i know it might sound. odd. but the widespread nature of our. depression anxiety and addiction crises. in one sense although. terribly painful and horrible and. excruciating and i've been there. is a positive thing because. the system is not working for more and. more people. and it becomes harder to defend this. system and these values.

when it makes everyone feel like [ __ ]. right. at some point you have to go you know. what this ain't [ __ ] working for us. so think about where we are i lived here. as i said for 10 years right just. not far from here so tower hamlets. you know i mean the tahoe says some of. the hot i think. if i remember rightly when i lived here. it was i think it was the constituency. in england that had the highest level of. poverty right. um so there's a lot of distress in tower. hamlets right i mean and by the way you. can be distressed and not be poor a lot. of this distress is happening in.

middle class and wealthy areas but think. about where we are look for signs of. distress. connect with the people who are. distressed fight together with them for. something better. and of course that has to be something. people do i can't tell people what the. signs of distress around them are and. they'll be different. in you know um a coastal village in kent. to. you know glasgow where my mom's from to. the isle of skye. different there'll be certain shared. factors but. look for the signs of distress i mean. you're spoiled. for signs of distress they're all. [ __ ] around us right.

i mean think about um the number of. people who drank themselves to death in. britain last year and how much that went. up as we said. and then meet them where they are. because god. change is really possible right and i. think about that in my own life. you know i'm gay right i didn't hear the. concept of gay marriage till i was 20. and my friend andrew sullivan wrote the. first book advocating it right literally. i did never crossed my mind i remember. the first person i was ever in love with. when i was 16.

i never had a sense of a future didn't. even occur to me that we could get. married it never even. entered my head right um you think about. the scale of that transformation. i remember just before kovid i was on. the tube. and there were these two girls who can't. have been more than 16. and they were making out and i was. staring at them and i think they thought. i was like an elderly person. and i had to go oh no no i'm gay i'm. just really this is really moved this. could never happen when i was your age. like i said i just thought i was like a. mental person but. the the how did that happen right.

it happened because ordinary people. came out they appealed to other people. around them. lots of heterosexual people saw that it. was. pointless to be cruel to gay people and. they could be loving and accepting. instead. and that change happened unbel you. basically got. 2 000 years of gay people being. horrifically persecuted. and then like 70 years of this from. from less than 70 years 60 years from.

send them to prison to yay they can get. married right. so absolutely change on when we talk. about things like oh. you know we're trapped in this machine. that's making us depressed right. that can sound like such a big thing. right we had. 2 000 years of homophobia right and i'm. not saying we've completely overcome it. obviously. but there's stunning progress right. the things we're talking about are much. more recent inventions than homophobia. right. like infinitely more recent and.

homophobia. terrible though it was only ever. affected a small part of the population. the things we're talking about. [ __ ] make they don't make everyone. depressed but they make everyone less. happy than they could be. so these are you know these are. absolutely things that can be challenged. they can be challenged in individuals. lives. and we can deal with them at the. political level as well. it requires a transformation in. consciousness which is happening. and we can talk about addiction if you. want in places that solved. that made extraordinary changes in that.

and massively reduce their addiction. deaths that i went to. but we need to understand this. differently and we need to listen to our. pain. we need to stop insulting our depression. anxiety and addictions. by saying they're a sign of weakness or. madness or. purely biological although there are. some biological contributions. and start listening to them listen to. the signal as a society. and as a culture because it is telling. us. where we need to go and what we need to. do i've been a hill fan for a long time.

as you obviously know by now but in the. last six months i've got a real. opportunity to get to know the people to. get to know the ceo of huell which is. james to get to know the founder which. is julian. the teams that agonize over the. ingredients that go into these amazing. recipes. and i can honestly say with my hand on. my heart my appreciation. and admiration for huel and its people. has multiplied by a factor of 10. because and this is the singularities. not only are they nice people. but because i've seen first hand how. much they are non-negotiable.

about the values of huel they will not. compromise they will not compromise. on the the goodness of the ingredients. that goes into the products the amount. of. proteins and minerals and these things. regardless if they can't get to where. they want to get to with the products. they will cancel the product i've tasted. products and they've said we've not. managed to make it this. we've not delivered on our promise of. veganism we've not added enough fiber. so we're canceling it and that sort of. non-negotiable set of values. has made me realize that they have my. back when i choose cure.

let me talk about you okay. and your connections yeah and your. romantic connections your friendships. and all of those things. sometimes i find it fascinating that. obviously since you know people can. know a lot of stuff but applying it to. oneself is challenging. i've you know some of my my favorite. guests that i've sat here with i'm. thinking about jamal. kreishi who i sat here with who's like a. you know you one could call him like a. motivational. uh coach you know probably doesn't quite. characterize who he is but. my last question to him was um are you.

good at taking your own advice he went. absolutely [ __ ] not he was like i'm. the least motivated motivational coach. in the world. so my question to you is how are you. doing with your connections in your life. in your. mental health and all of these questions. i think people are often most articulate. about the things they most struggle with. right so and it's interesting because. sometimes that's presented as hypocrite. give you an example. there's a left-wing political who but. there's a left-wing politician. i know who is incredibly articulate. about greed. and how terrible it is and is incredibly.

greedy right. now you could look at that and go that's. hypocrisy. and of course at one level a kind of. boringly obvious level it is. but to me what's more interesting is. that is a person who's internally. struggling against his own flaw. right that is a person who has this. force within him. and is genuinely trying is so articulate. because he's wrestling with it all the. time. and so i think um in a sense taking your. own advice is sort of like. the fact that you needed to articulate.

the advice suggests that internal. struggle do you know what you mean yeah. i think about um ian foster. one of my favorite writers who famously. said only connect. who was someone who really struggled. with connection um. partly because he was a gay man of a. much earlier generation. who uh well his connections. his loving romantic connections were a. crime right so he was really. there were other ways in which he. struggled with with connection as well. so in terms of myself. um i was always very lucky with.

friendships. um all my life i've had amazing. friendships. for me um you know i said before there. were two causes of. two cause out of the nine causes of. depression anxiety that wrote about in. the book there were two that i struggled. with a lot. and this so one was drunk values the. other. it this was a hard journey for me in the. book. i learned about this through a story of. a scientist discovered it. who i met and she explained i think.

people understand it better if they know. the story even though for like a minute. you're going to think. what the [ __ ] has this got to do with. what he just said but just bear with me. so in the mid 1980s there was a doctor. called vincent felitti. who um was approached. he was in san diego in california and he. was approached by kaiser permanente who. are one of the big not-for-profit. medical providers in california. and they came to him and were like we've. got a problem. and we need your help and the problem.

was. um obesity. obesity was massive rising hugely. exploded since then but it was. rising and rising and they were like. look nothing we're doing is working we. give people diet advice we talk to them. about nutrition. we even give some of them personal. trainers nothing is working. so they just gave him a quite big budget. and said just do blue skies research. work with really obese people. just figure out what the hell we can do. so dr felitti starts working with. uh 250 severely obese people people who.

weighed more than 400 pounds so people. who are really. you know in terrible danger he's working. on this thing. he's interviewing them he's thinking. what can i do and. one day he's talking to one of them and. he has an idea. which sounds like it actually is a quite. stupid idea. he said what would happen if really. obese people. literally stopped eating and we gave. them like. i know vitamin c shot so they didn't get. scurvy we gave them like. vitamin shots would they just burn.

through the fat supplies in their body. and get down to a normal way. so with a [ __ ] ton of medical. supervision they try it. and incredibly at first it worked. there's a woman i call her susan that's. not a real name. um who went down from being more than. 400 pounds to 138 pounds it's amazing. right. and people are like how can this be. what's going on uh and her family are. like you've saved her life. and then one day something happened they. didn't expect susan cracked. she went to kfc she wasn't kfc that's me.

projecting whatever it was. uh some fast food place she starts. obsessively eating. and pretty soon she's back at her. dangerous weight not where she'd been. but a dangerous weight. and dr felitti called her in he's like. susan what happened. said i don't know i don't know. and he's kind of dumbfounded and he says. well tell me about the day that you. cracked what. did anything happen that day it turned. out something had happened that day that. never happened to susan. she was in a bar and a man came up to.

her and hit on her not in a nasty. predatory way in a nice way. and she felt really freaked out and she. goes and she starts eating and. if he's like huh what's the significant. could this be significant and then he. said to her. saying he never asked his patients. before he said susan when did you start. to put on your weight. in her case it was when she was 11. and he said to her well did anything. happen that year that didn't happen any. other year anything when you're eleven. she said she looked down she said yeah. that's when my grandfather started to. rape me.

dr philippe interviewed everyone in the. program and he discovered that more than. 60 percent of them have put on their. extreme weight in the aftermath of being. sexually abused or assaulted. and he's thinking what's what's that. about how what. and susan explained it to him really. well she said overweight is overlooked. and that's what i need to be this thing. that seems so destructive and of course. it's bad for you to be severely obese. was performing a positive function for.

all these people it was protecting them. from sexual attention. right um and just things like ah this is. this is kind of interesting um so he. but this is a small group of people it's. 250 people it's not much you can't. draw big scientific conclusions based on. this so. dr felitti goes to the cd center for. disease control who fund a lot of. medical research. and he got funding to do a massive study. everyone. who came to kaiser permanente in san. diego so more than 17 000 people. for a whole year no matter what for.

headaches schizophrenia broken leg. anything. got given two questionnaires first part. says. did you have any of these bad. experiences when you were a kid things. like sexual abuse. severe neglect that kind of thing second. part said. um have you had any of these problems as. an adult it was initially only going to. say. obesity but and this is where it comes. to our story at the last minute they had. loads of other things like depression. addiction suicide attempts. and at first when they added up the. figures people they were like no there's.

been a mistake added up again. because the figures were so extreme for. every category of childhood trauma that. you experienced. you were two to four times more likely. to be depressed obese and addicted. but when you got into the multiple. categories the figures just went crazy. if you had six categories of chance of. trauma. you were 3100 more likely to have. attempted suicide. and 4 600 percent more likely to have an. injecting. drug problem i mean these are just.

insane figures you very rarely get that. in science right. and i remember dr felitti saying to me. like that that he he realized. it was like there had been a house fire. and we have been focusing on dealing. with the smoke. not on dealing with the fire right dr. robert ander who's one of the other. scientists who worked on it said to me. he realized when you see things like. obesity depression addiction. we need to stop asking what's wrong with. you and start asking.

what happened to you but. it's kind of difficult to talk about. this but so dr felicia is a super nice. guy right if you met him you'd really. like him when i interviewed him he was. like. 81 so ages ago lovely. good decent admirable man. and when i interviewed him in san diego. the first time i was sitting with him. and i was getting angrier and angrier. and i actually ended the interview early. because i was getting so angry.

i remember walking to the beach in san. diego walking around thinking. what the [ __ ] is this about why am i so. angry with this lovely old man who's. done this amazing research that's helped. so many people. and i'm thinking so. when i was a child i'd experienced some. very extreme things from an adult in my. life. and i had i didn't want to think about. that i didn't want to. uh i didn't want to think about that in. relation to the depression i had. experienced. i didn't i didn't want to give this.

individual power over me now. um but one of the reasons. i'm glad that i went back and carried on. talking to him is because of what dr. felicity. do you think is really relevant to what. you're asking so. obviously they'd asked all these people. who came for healthcare about their. childhood trauma. so suddenly they've got all this data so. they said to people's gps don't call. them back in. but next time they come in look at the. childhood trauma thing and if they've. experienced childhood trauma say to them.

something like this. i see that when you were a child you. were sexually abused or whatever it was. i'm really sorry that happened that. should never have happened to you you. should have been protected that was a. failing. would you like to talk about it and 40. percent of people did not want to talk. about it but 60. of people did and they wanted to talk. about it on average for five minutes. and then it was randomly assigned some. of them were told we can go to. therapists to talk about it more. what they found was just five minutes of. an authority figure saying.

i'm so sorry this should never have. happened to you that alone. led to a significant fall in depression. and anxiety and people who refer to a. therapist had an even bigger form. and what this shows it fits with a whole. load of other evidence from people like. professor steve coles at ucla professor. james pennebaker at florida state. university. is it's not the trauma that destroys you. it's the shame about the trauma and. giving people. ways to release that shame is an. antidepressant.

so for me. learning that and it's one of the. reasons i made myself put it in the book. and talk about it. is so very often people who survive. abuse as children. internalize the voice of the abuser. right almost invariably the abuser says. you made me do this you're a bad person. you made me do this. right and so although of course there. was never any point in my adult life. where i. thought that was a rational you know. there was never a point where i would. have if you. you know if someone had told me they had.

been abused and told me negative things. they'd been told. i would never have thought yeah the. abuser was right obviously. i didn't reckon with that. internalization in my own life and i. think it meant that. a lot of the time although i always had. great friendships. with romantic relationships um. they would i would often cauterize them. at a certain point. because i didn't feel at that time that. i deserved to be loved. i didn't feel that i deserved to be. treated well so it would mean that.

sometimes i would get into relationships. people who didn't treat me well. or sometimes if they did treat me well i. would end it prematurely. at the point at which they were treating. me well because i've internalized so. many of these negative. uh and destructive and untrue ideas. and and the process of thinking that. through obviously i had a therapist as. well. the process of thinking that through and. releasing that shame made me. much more open to.

know love you know uh because i didn't. it was possible to overcome that does. that make sense stephen does that are. you still on that journey. oh yeah and i think anyone who you know. how would i put it yeah of course. of course. and through all of your your work and. your writing you've you know. you've highlighted to the world but also. clearly to yourself the importance of. that. um of romantic connections well it comes. right back to where we started isn't it.

why do i write to understand to. understand things i didn't understand at. the start. to go on a journey there are things i. want to understand. um and and sometimes they're big things. right. um and sometimes they're very personal. things and sometimes they're both. uh and then to track down okay who. who knows a lot about this who's found. interesting things out about this and go. and sit with them. and kind of pester them and keep going. back year after year until. i feel i understand it and i feel now i.

understand it. and i gotta say it's quite frustrating. watching some of the kovid debate at the. moment because um. there's been this big increase in. addiction depression. and a lot of the way it's taught even by. super well-meaning. admirable people as almost everyone in. this debate is. so many of the ways in which people are. encouraged to think they are helping.

people. with the best will in the world and with. a good heart. often strip these things of meaning. so there's a thing for example that very. well meaning people say which is so. depression is just like you know. depression is. a disease like diabetes you know. you wouldn't shame someone having a. broken leg. they're absolutely right that depressing. anxious people should never be. stigmatized but actually that. that's not the way you remove stigma you.

don't remove i mean. no one ever doubted that leprosy and. aids were biological phenomena. and you might notice there was a damn. lot of stigma about them right saying. something is biological and it's true. there are some biological components we. can talk about if you want. some biological contributions your genes. can make you more vulnerable to these. things so they do not write your destiny. um but but sexting is biological does. not actually the. there's some good scientific evidence it. it increases the stigma because it makes. people think god those people are really. different to me they're like a. different species what actually undoes. stigma is to say although there are some.

biological contributions any of us would. feel like this in this situation. actually that your pain makes. sense there was a moment that really all. this really fell into place for me as. well as one of the two. totally revolutionary moments for me in. the research for lost connections i went. to interview. this south african psychiatrist called. derek summerfield. and he told me this story about. something that happened to him so. derek was in cambodia in 2001 when they. first introduced chemical.

antidepressants for people in cambodia. they've never had them in the country. before. and the local doctors the the cambodians. were like. what are they they didn't know what they. were antidepressants. and and derek explained and they said to. him oh we don't need them we've already. got antidepressants and he was like well. what do you mean. he thought they were going to talk about. some kind of like herbal remedy like. jinkobeloba or something. instead they told him a story they had a. farmer in their community. who worked in the rice fields and one. day he stood on a land mine.

left over from the wall with the. americans and he got his leg blown off. so they gave him an artificial limb they. did that in cambodia because they've got. a lot of land mines. and after a while several months the guy. goes back to work right so he goes back. to work in the rice fields. and but apparently it's super painful to. work under water when you've got an. artificial limb. and i'm guessing it was pretty traumatic. to go back and work in the field where. he got. blown up the guy started to cry all day. after a while he just wouldn't get out. of bed he developed what we would call. classic depression right this is when. the cambodian doctor said well you know.

that's when we gave him an. antidepressant and derek said what was. it. they explained that they went and sat. with him they listened to him. they realized that his pain made sense. he only had to talk to him for five. minutes to realize why he felt so [ __ ]. one of the doctors said well we realized. if we bought this guy a cow. he could become a dairy farmer he. wouldn't be in this position that was. screwing him up so much. so they bought him a cow within a couple. of weeks his crying stopped. within a month his depression was gone.

it never came back they said to derek. so you see doctor that cow that was an. antidepressant that's what you mean. right. now if you've been raised to think about. depression the way we have that it's. primarily or entirely a malfunction in. your brain. that sounds like a bad joke i went to my. doctor for an antidepressant she gave me. a cow. but what those cambodian doctors knew. intuitively from this individual. unscientific anecdote. is what the leading medical body in the. whole world the world health. organization. has been trying to tell us for years. right your pain.

makes sense if you're depressed if. you're anxious. you're not weak you're not crazy you're. not. in the main a machine with broken parts. you're a human being with. unmet needs and what you need is. practical help and support. to get those needs met so one of the. things we have to be asking as a society. and culture is. what's the cow for the things that are. screwing us up right what's the cow for. the things that are making us depressed. instead of seeing depression as a. malfunction. we've got to see it as a signal that's. telling us the person is distressed.

and and has unmet needs and and together. help them get those disparate because. what the doctors didn't say is. all right mate this is your problem. you're on your own right together they. help to solve the problem. we've got to solve the underlying. problems for which depression is a. signal. and you said you tweeted um about this. you said um. there is good evidence that after covid. we can reverse our. spiraling depression and anxiety crisis. but to do that we need to radically. expand the menu of responses to it. yeah think about what we were talking.

about to give one example just from up. the road. social prescribing right every single. doctor's surgery should have a social. prescribing wing. it should be the first thing that is. suggested certainly for mild and. moderate depression. uh is figure out if the person's lonely. and. disconnected from the natural world if. they are suggest they might prescribe. and there's a real power in doctors. prescribed not just saying oh you might. want to think about this. because people feel so disempowered to. find each other in such a. lonely and atomized society that's one. example obviously the last third of lost. connections. is loads of very practical examples and.

we have to do that in our own lives. right like we can. socially prescribe ourselves yeah i. think there's an authority in doctors. absolutely we can we shouldn't we should. be doing it for ourselves we should be. urging other people to do it. but in a culture that's become so. disconnected. from understanding our needs and. actually where we've been told a rival. story. that has some truth in it you know there. are as i. stress a lot in the book i have a. chapter about this there are real. biological contributions to. depression and anxiety that can make you.

more sensitive to these problems. and can make it harder to get out but. what's happened is. an overly simplified biological story. has become. the main thing we say about depression. when i went to my doctor and i was a. teenager and i was felt like pain was. leaking out of me. my doctor who was a very well-meaning. decent person just said the same wrong. with your brain and all you need to do. is drug yourself. right and chemical anti-depressants gave. me a little bit of relief for a while. also gave me really severe side effects. in my case although not everyone.

and ultimately i remain depressed right. so what that story did that over. simplified story which has some truth in. it for some people. well that oversimplified story did is. cut me off for many years for. 13 years from exploring the deeper. causes. if right early on there's no criticism. of my doctor they're just part of a. system you know that's not of their own. creation and a lot of doctors want to do. better and want to have better options. to give people that. they haven't been offered them. themselves. and it cut me off from a deeper more.

nuanced story. that helps me to find a way out of my. depression so i think one of the things. we've got to do is. help people to find stories that make. sense of their pain. because that's the way once you. understand why you feel something you. can begin to find your way out of it. but just being lost in a haze if you're. just biologically broken no one is. there are some biological contributions. but no one is broken by their biology. no one is no one is with there's nobody. who with the right support can't find.

their way out. but with the right support is a crucial. clause there. that we have to build as a society that. we have not built right. we just haven't built got me thinking. about psychedelics. for a number of reasons because. psychedelics you know it's been of a. i think there's a bit of a revolution. going on in the the perception of. psychedelics you know we had the war and. nixon's like war on drugs in the like. 50s or 60s or whatever it was i wasn't. alive then so. excuse my uh inaccuracy but we were. lucky you dodged the bullet of nixon.

not a good guy yeah i wasn't there. either but i'm not ready to talk about. him but i just i know that he was. pivotal in like you know. slamming the the gauntlet down on the. the chance of. even researching some of these compound. psychedelic compounds but what i've. come to learn over the last six months. working in uh you know one of the. world's leading um sort of psychedelic. and non-psychedelic mental health. companies which is a tie. and spending some time there is how. remarkable. the s these stats evidence and findings. are. um for things like psilocybin which is.

the compound derived from. magic mushrooms at helping those with. treatment-resistant depression to. overcome. um their you know their their feelings. of depression. and it matches up perfectly to the. philosophy and really the. the perspective that your book gave me. on mental health because. it approaches the um the. what's the correct word to use the. indication of treatment resistant. depression. from the stance that something has. happened to you and that thing might.

live in your subconscious. you know and it's an unlocker of that. thing in the same way that therapy might. be for some for some people. but what's your you know having written. this book and studied. depression for so long and anxiety. what do you think of psychedelics so as. you know for the book. as chapter about psychotics because i. went and interviewed the leading experts. in the world on this people who've been. doing the. cutting-edge research i interviewed them. in um johns hopkins in baltimore. at ucla here in london at ucl at nyu. and somewhere else oh in brazil and um.

so i'm strongly informed of psychedelics. for some people it's a slightly. complicated picture. in a way that i think helps us to. understand what's going on. so think about treatment you mentioned. treatment resistant depression some. really good research was done on this. here in london. by david professor david nutt and dr. robin carhart harris. they get people who've been depressed. for a long time and nothing's helped. them and they've tried lots of things. and nothing's helped them. and they gave them remember rightly. three doses of psilocybin in the active. component magic mushrooms might be wrong.

on the number but. something like that and exactly as you. say. huge numbers of them have a. it's amazing they feel the strong. feeling of connection. to the natural world to their own. traumas to everyone around them as. anyone as you see psychedelics. experience a really profound spiritual. experience. and that deeply lifts their depression. and anxiety. so a taste of connection this wasn't.

true for literally everyone but it was a. very high percentage. an intense feeling of meaning and. connection helps to lift them out of. their depression. there's a coder to that which robin. talks about um. so i'll give you an example one of the. people who told me about it's a woman in. the program who worked in. um she worked in an office in like a. coastal town in britain that was quite. kind of run down and grim. should be very depressed she goes she. takes the silocybin. her depression lifts she feels deeply. connected and then she goes back to work.

in. the office and she comes back and is. like. i can't go around my office acting like. we're connected we're all equal. nature is beautiful i have to live in. this disconnected way to exist in my. office right. so over time her depression comes back. because. she's had a taste of connection but then. she goes back to live in a disconnected. landscape. right a disconnected emotional landscape. and i think um so what the evidence. shows.

is the way i think of psychedelics is. administered in the right way of course. that's an important clause. what they can do is give you a taste of. how it feels to be connected. to have meaning but i think of that as. like. a compass that can point you in the. direction you need to travel. it doesn't do the j it gives i mean it. gives you a flash of what it's like to. be at the end of the journey. but then you're back at the start of the. journey and you know the com you know. the direction in which you need to. travel. what it doesn't do is do the journey for.

you right or not for more than the six. or seven hours. you know you're you're under the effects. of the the psychedelic. so and this is true of a lot of the. i mean there's some i'll come to some. complexity of the evidence in a minute. but. so most people are not going to want to. take psychedelics a huge amount at the. time right i mean there's some. exceptions amanda fielding i don't know. if you met her. so amanda who people don't know amanda. is um kind of amazing. uh british heiress who's a great. champion of psychedelics. who um seems to remember i don't want to.

get it wrong cause i didn't write about. her so i didn't uh i don't remember the. exact number but. i seem to call her saying she took. psychedelics for the whole of 1986. so. just every day right so some people will. have the means and want to take. psychedelics all the time. but that's a very small part of the. population right so. what what we know works is giving people. psychedelics. to give them a sense of what it can be. like to be connected and then helping. them. to integrate into their lives ways they. can bring. take that connection forward so there.

was a guy i interviewed who was part of. the johns hopkins study. who had had this very profound. experience with psychedelics. his dad had died when he was very young. no one had talked to him about his dad's. death when he died it was just kind of. silence. and when he died he had this vision. where his he saw his dad he found his. dad in a wood. and his dad said to him you know you. built up these walls to protect yourself. but we can take these walls down now. you're safe go and seek right because.

he'd been cutting himself off for so. long from. from things like romantic connections. and then. when he when the psychedelics the effect. of the psychedelics. the immediate effect of the psychedelics. went away he then started becoming like. a very deep meditator. doing all sorts of things that kind of. built in. that that that sense of connection into. his life so i think. that that to me is the great value of. now there are some people who say they. have more enduring effects beyond just. that immediate taste of connection and. the. my kind of compass metaphor so the good.

evidence for that would be the johns. hopkins study. so the guys at johns hopkins did her. amazing scientists did it. i always think about this in relation to. my mother because um they took. really long-term smokers so my uh my. mother smokes 70 cigarettes a day. and uh there's an amazing there's a. photo of me and her two at a time. she's like there's a photo of me and her. when i'm uh about six months old i found. a few years ago. where she's um she's breastfeeding me. smoking and resting the asteroid in my. stomach. and when i showed it to her she said my.

mother's scottish uh what. i showed it to her she said you were a. difficult baby i needed that cigarette. [ __ ] [ __ ]. but um so they took people like my. mother who a super super long-term. smoker she's been spoken since she was. 14. and they gave them i think it was three. doses of silocybin over a few months. and 80 of them stopped smoking and a. year later. 60 of them were still non-smokers so. there's some evidence of. though positive long-term outcomes it's. quite a small study. so yeah i think this is a really.

important i think some people oversell. it and say it's. the answer which is not right but i. think it can be a very useful tool when. i talk about. with depression what we've done up to. now. is basically since the since the 90s. is with depression when people present. with depression. almost all the time there is one option. on the menu which is chemical. antidepressants. which do give some people some relief um.

we need to. radic that needs to stay on the menu but. we need to radically expand the menu of. options. and psychedelics are another great. example of something that should totally. be. beyond the menu should be available to. people. in a medical context and i would argue. outside medical context as well. i mean it's part of the argument of um. my book chasing the scream about how we. need to end the war on drugs. and move towards regulated models of. access to drugs for all sorts of drugs.

so. yeah i think i think it's really. important i think we're getting there as. well it's uh. you know the public markets and the. commercial model and the amount of. investment that's going into. psychedelics is just. staggering a thai have raised i think. 400 million. in the last 24 months it's another thing. where. you know we're thinking about change. when we feel like we're up against when. we are indeed. up against these very powerful forces. what think about cannabis right yeah. when the day george w bush becomes. president in 2000. 15 of american citizens support.

legalizing cannabis. today it's 70 and because new york just. legalized. uh that hasn't started yet they've just. voted the legislature voted to legalize. now half of all american citizens live. in a state where cannabis is legal right. so you think about how quickly that. happened cannabis being unbelievably. demonized from the 1930s to the to. the to like your lifetime yeah um. and then this huge shift in opinion. really quickly. because people saw it in practice right. people saw cannabis legalization and. practice colorado went first.

um mason taver who led that campaign i. interviewed a lot for chasing the screen. just all it takes is one place to breach. the damn two places washington state did. at the same time. and people are like oh is this the thing. we were so [ __ ] afraid of. oh actually you know it's you know. pretty straightforward. just i feel like social media has played. it played a role in this because. we now have this like connected. consciousness of like a whole country or. the whole planet. where we can we can pick up on an idea.

share it. and like virtue signal it signal it. rapidly. into existence into where we all go yep. that's right yeah. like a whole country can do it when you. think about if you go back hundreds of. years before the advent of the internet. if the king of the land or whatever the. politician had said something. we couldn't um sort of get together in. the same way. and um form our own opinion as this like. because i see like. i think about twitter as this one brain. and. one day it will say you know same-sex. marriage is.

great and that idea can very quickly. become adopted because you can get that. idea to. like a billion people and basically vote. it into existence using like. you know likes and retweets and a couple. of influences. and so i you know so i would have said. that if you. i would have said that 10 years ago what. you just said i would have had the. optimistic view i think the evidence. since then has gotten. you're definitely right one of the good. things about social media is we're. geographical distance feels much more. collapsed. and we feel much closer to the whole.

world ideas are spreading yeah and i. just. but if you look at the mechanisms by. which those ideas. spread this is not inherent to social. media this is inherent to the current. business model of social media. so if you look at my friend tristan. harris uh has done his. totally interview has done a really. important work on this he was a google. engineer. who uh saw what was happening inside. google and. and spoke out um. so if you look at how these ideas spread. so we tend to think of it as a neutral. playing field right.

so here's a good idea gay marriage. psychedelics help depression whatever it. might be. enters this level playing field some. people like it it spreads it grows right. now sometimes that happens of course. but if you look at um so these business. models of premise the business model of. youtube twitter facebook is all promised. on. you pick up your phone now you scroll. through twitter you scroll through. facebook. the longer you are scrolling the more. money facebook makes obviously because. of. both exposure to adverts and because. they're learning more about you every.

time you do anything. so their business model is premised. every time you put down your phone it's. a disaster for them. and every time you carry on scrolling. it's great for them so they've designed. very complex algorithms. to figure out what keeps you scrolling. what keeps everyone who walks past this. building scrolling. and it turns out because of the quirky. human beings that we could talk about. well if you want. things that make you angry will keep you. scrolling longer. than thing things that out things things. that outrage and anger you will keep you. scrolling. longer than things that make you feel.

good if you see something that makes you. feel good. it makes you want to go and be out in. the real world if you see something that. makes you angry you want to keep. scrolling you want to express your rage. right. if it's enraging it's engaging so. although that's not the goal of youtube. and facebook they want you to be angry. their algorithms are figured out. angering and enraging content. keeps people scrolling longer therefore. although it's not the intention of the. designers. the the practical effect of these apps. is. they are designed to make the algorithms. function in such a way.

that they will feed you things that make. you angry and upset so this thing that. you thought was a level playing field. right oh. good ideas will prevail bad ideas or die. out is not right. actually on in the main it will select. for things that make people angry so you. look at the nyu study. if you look at the um the figures for. the 2016 u.s presidential election. i think the figure was 19 out of 19 out. of the 20 most uh. shared stories on facebook were lies. like actual lies like. the trumpet um donald trump was endorsed.

by the pope right which was not true in. fact the pope. criticized donald trump um so you see. when. you think about infowars the disgusting. filth. uh this guy alex jones who. uh is a a cynic cynic not even. not even a lunatic a cynic who says. things like. the sandy hook massacre didn't happen. the parents. were are liars they're crisis actors so. you think about you know. how many children it was 26 i think were. murdered at school.

and he unleashes a mob against these. parents whose children. have been murdered where those parents. have had to move loads of times because. they are. hounded by his supporters threatening to. kill their surviving children. it's hard for me to imagine a more evil. thing. infowars in the 2016 election. more infowars stories were shared on. facebook in the world than the entire. new york times washington post guardian. and bbc combined. so you think about this landscape that. is enraging people. um so it's not now.

you don't have to have a business model. like that social media doesn't have to. work that way. right you can have all the good things. about social media the. collapsing of social distance the. connection of the world without that if. you have a different business model we. can talk about another time. and tristan talks about that brilliantly. but. so i i i get what you're saying and i. understand. there's a truth in what you're saying. which is we can hear ideas more readily. but there's a cost well it's not just a. cost there'll be a cost in any model.

but actually we're communicating through. a poisoned. mechanism that doesn't promote the. spread of good ideas that actually. promotes the spread of false. and uh hateful ideas um and we've got to. fix. that as well as um. yes then we can have all the joys of. connection without this you know. infowars [ __ ] or or other forms of. i completely agree um and you you know i. saw you'd written. when you went off to write your new book. which we're not we're probably not. allowed to talk about on this uh.

my publishers will tase me that's fine. they've told me very specifically. i'm super excited to read it it's. january next year january next year yeah. how exciting yeah. can you you can say the title that's on. amazon uh it's called stolen focus. nice okay i'm not i'm. why you can't focus and how to think. deeply again okay but my publishers. literally. don't i can't do an american accent. that's a [ __ ] word they don't. actually smell like that i've told them. like they're the. they're actually like very nice new york.

we won't talk about that. but um what i would like to talk about. is focus. what are you doing in that process where. you're writing you're writing a new book. now what are you doing. are you out researching you're on the. internet you're reading other books. you're speaking to people what are you. doing. so i spend a lot i spent a long time. researching my book so the book that i'm. gonna. the book that i'm writing now which is. about i'm really not meant to talk about. because it's about a specific set of. crimes that.

uh other people have written about i. don't want to i don't want to set up the. journalists. but um so i've been going there for 10. years. and i've been getting to know the people. 10 years and i've been. deeply researching it for 10 years and. there's a thing about. um when you're trying to understand a. subject whether it's depression or las. vegas or i'm writing a biography of name. chomsky that i've also been working on. for a really long time. and i probably won't write for another. 10 years at least. there's a thing about such an important.

part of my books is people opening up to. me. and people generally don't open up to. you the first time they meet you you. know they think who is this person why. does he want why do you want to ask me. these very personal questions what's. going on here. generally people open up to you at the. end of the second year so for me. it's so important it's incredible. privilege and luxury that i get to do. this. um for me what's so important is this. very. long span so i'll spend ten years. writing in in this moment since you know. what i'm doing at the moment.

so i'm writing about vegas so there's a. couple tommy and shea. who i knew over many years uh when. he was murdered um and what i'm doing at. the moment. is i've got all the audio i've ever. recorded i've got. hundreds of hours of audio with them i. paid to have it all transcribed and i'm. just. reading through just mounds and mounds. of transcripts they keep all right. that's a scene that's a moment ah i. forgot he said that. you know this is that's the time this. happened to us that's the time we were.

you know in caesar's palace and then oh. yeah and the guy so it's just going. through. so at the moment i'm in the stage of. what i think of as. finding out what jigsaw pieces i've got. i'm not even assembling the jigsaw at. the moment i'm just going over okay. and you know there'll be i'll read 300. pages of transcripts and think oh we've. got nothing that time. you know and then another time there are. days when you're like. oh they were so articulate that day or. this crazy thing happened. so at the moment i'm assembling the. jigsaw pieces and then. probably in two months i start to put. the jigsaw pieces together so i'll.

i'll have some i'll like index it and. i'd be like all right okay so. he talked about his childhood in hawaii. this time that time that. okay then you put all that together and. then you go oh okay this is this is. where he described. gambling all right okay so you're trying. to piece it all together slowly over. time. be to do that you've got to initially. immerse yourself in the actual. place and go back a lot and build up a. huge. reservoir of just stuff and.

the other thing and this was hard for me. because i was a newspaper journalist for. a long time where. you know everything had to be. you know you've got 24 hours to write it. you don't have time for dead ends. you have to have a high tolerance for. dead ends so for every expert i've. quoted to you i need to be 10 experts. who were decent people and told me. nothing i used in the book right there's. a great uh. i know absolutely nothing about nature. so this could be [ __ ] but there's a. metaphor that thoreau the american. 19th century american writer used where.

he said. um apparently if you want to find a. beehive and you don't know where the. beehive is if you stay in a place and. wait for a bee to come along. and catch it in a jar just keep it there. for a couple of minutes. it will fly off in the direction of the. hive so you let it go and you run. and it the b is faster than you will. then you stand. you follow it as far as you can and then. you wait there you catch another bee let. that one go. follow that and if you do that like 30. times you'll find the beehive right. i don't that's true but that's what. thoreau says um and i think of writing.

as a bit like that. it's like you. you start with a subject it's really big. why are so many people depressed. you look for people who've talked about. an interesting way you go and talk to. all of them. and then at the end of every interview. you say who else should i talk to and. you're going to talk to all of them. and you say who else should i see and. you get this kind of growing concentric. circle until. sooner or later you find the person who. like vincent felitti i interview i can't. tell you how many people are interviewed. about childhood trauma. and depression many of whom you know. were nice people who told me nothing of. interest.

and i forget who it was it was a chain. it was a chain through about five people. who said someone said. you should talk to vincent felitti who's. he went to san diego and you're like ah. this is this is the thing right and and. some of that can be. sometimes you're lucky i knew in chasing. the scream i want to tell the story of a. drug dealer. and i remember chino was the second drug. dealer i interviewed him to be the guy. in baltimore. and i remember chino uh first thing he. said to me. almost the very first thing was. i was conceived with my mother who was a.

crack addict was raped by my dad who was. an nypd officer. and i was like tell me more and i never. looked for another drug dealer i was. like. she knows my person right and china is. an unusually incredible human being in. all sorts of ways. he's no longer a drug dealer he's um he. he. arrested no no he was arrested he was. wreckers but he uh. he now campaigns to end the war on drugs. and actually had. shut down the horrific spafford the. horrific youth detention center that he. was detained in he's a.

completely incredible person but um yeah. so. sometimes you're lucky and you don't. have to do the long chain you just find. the right person very early. and sometimes you spend five years. finding the right person. but for me it's a the the fun is the. the journey right the part of the fun. sometimes it's the fun of getting an. answer. vincent felitti you're like oh i now. understand childhood drama and addiction. and depression but yes it's a long a. long journey but i. i i'm really lucky i just love you. sometimes you meet writers who go.

it's agony it's agony and i always want. to go can't [ __ ] work in a call. center for a week and come back and tell. me how difficult. i'm not saying there aren't challenges. in writing there are but anyone who is a. writer a professional writer. whose attitude is not everyday thank. god i'm an atheist but metaphorically. thank. god i get to do this job i'm so lucky. that's got to be your default position. it's a it's an incredible. privilege to get to do it i know that. sounds hashtag blessed and wanky but. like it really is.

like a great um to get to kind of. investigate. complicated things and try to find. answers and explain them to people. who need to know and there's a lot of. people who need to know the answers to. these questions it's a great thing. but that's clearly why you've written so. many great books because you have. a intrinsic. joy for your work because the lengths. you've described there. ten years five years three years the air. miles you must have done to write these. books there's a whole part of greenland.

that has melted because. there you go yeah i i i i'm not. going to [ __ ] i finish i wrote my. book um. over the space of a year and a half but. i. wouldn't have done what you did i i and. and that speaks to where my intrinsic. motivations and joy comes from. i enjoyed the process of writing the. book but the thoroughness that you put. into your books is just. staggering to me because i don't share. that intrinsic joy for the process which. you clearly do.

um but you have a lot of intrinsic joy. for the other things that you yeah. exactly. important it's a shame it's just shame. to some degree i think part of my. conditioning of growing up in the social. media era where we get instant. gratification. made the the thought of you know when. i've got a. instant instagram story i can do or this. five-year book project but that's why i. really restrict i give you an example i. won't say his name but there's someone. a contemporary of mine a british writer. who's now based in the u.s who is. one of the cleverest people i know a. totally brilliant i mean just.

politically. intellectually just an outstanding. person. and 10 years before if he'd been. exactly the same person 10 years before. he would have written. three brilliant books that changed how. people think about the subjects. and i've watched and it's been really. depressing. as he just atrophies his energy tweeting. all the time and he's got a huge twitter. following and i'm not saying that. doesn't do any good. it does sound good but and ever whenever.

i see him i you know i mean. uh in the cities and i would say he he. you know we i. see him and he's just adult and you know. there's a line um. and ginsburg the poet said uh i saw the. best minds of my generation consumed by. madness. i feel like i saw the best minds of my. generation consumed by twitter. just [ __ ] i'm not saying there's no. value in it but. atrophying that energy and i've been. there right um years ago but. and so for me you're right a huge part.

of writing a book. is deferred gratification i've gotta. interview people. for this biography for example i'm. writing noam chomsky he's an incredible. person. i interviewed someone two days ago. knowing i'm not gonna look at that. transcript. for seven years right and knowing. somewhere down the line i'm going to be. glad. i did that interview because that person. is quite old and they'll be dead if i. wait seven years and. you know and so you've got to be it's. very hard to defer gratification if you.

can get an immediate hit. of but it's a very shallow hit right. when i meet people and i quite feel. difference right. sometimes people come up to me in the. street and they go uh i follow you on. instagram or whatever and there's and. it's a very shallow connection. and sometimes people come up to me and. they'll say i read your book. and they will even their physical. demeanor is different it's like being. approached by someone. who is a friend right and they will. always have some not always but most of. the time have some.

much more detailed story i always feel. like i feel like if someone follows you. on twitter it's the equivalent. of shouting to you across a crowded bar. whistling exactly. whereas if you're lucky whistling i'm. slightly throwing the pint at you and. glassing you but. whereas if someone's read my book i feel. like i've gone on holiday with them. right the level of kind of intimate. because it takes a long time to read a. book right deeply personal. it's very and they've been in your head. right they've been injured childhood. yeah they've been and they've and. they've been on this if they remember. it's. a really big journey right so.

there's an intimacy to that so i think. it's it's worth. it comes back to what you're saying. about porn right you could spend your. whole life sitting at home wanking over. porn. right i'm not against porn right i look. at it myself but. sometimes but we all know the hard work. of having a relationship. is ultimately going to be more. satisfying than your whole life one can. overpower. right speak for yourself exactly okay. very.

and i feel like a lot of life is on that. principle right like. of course you can to me the people i. know. i mean i know who look who are tweeting. all the time and i know a lot of people. with really big twitter followings. it's not just that they partly it's. their atrophying their lives on. [ __ ] also it makes them really. [ __ ] unhappy. i know someone i won't say who but. someone who's got a very big twitter.

following. who's got an ex it's a bit like our. instagram inspired so we're talking. about before. huge instagram photos sort of huge. twitter following. bumped into in the street a good few. years ago now. again like miserable as [ __ ]. right and made more miserable by i mean. i think about someone i know this is not. a famous person someone i know who. uses a uses a lot of meth. and is on twitter all the time and. genuinely if you said to me should this. individual quit twitter or meth.

first i would say quit twitter it's. worse for him right. i don't mean that as a glib joke not. that meth is so great but it it. it just has such a negative effect on. people the thing i. dislike most about it is. for me um. [Music]. almost everything about being an. effective person in the world. is about being sincere and open-hearted. you know with humor and comedy and all. that stuff but you want to be.

sincere and open-ended and what i don't. like about church and i think again it's. one things i feel happening to me as i. look at it. is the voice of twitter the kind of. generic voice. is you are sarcastic you're cold. you're one-upmanship a one-upmanship all. of these. things that are antithetical to. just a good life right if you want to. succeed on if you want to win at twitter. and i've seen this happen to so many. people i know um.

how do you do it be sassy be nasty. be maximally judgmental there's no. tweets and going oh this person's. screwed up but. we all screw up sometimes let's you know. let's forgive the person to move on. there's no tweets in that. all the tweets are in kill the person. destroy them escalating outrage because. of the algorithms because the way they. work. um binary exactly just. it's not a forum it's a forum that. promotes. unkindness and aggressive certainty when.

almost everything in life. that's meaningful comes from kindness. doubt listening to people also. encourages people to respond to. different. to me the worst possible way to go. through life. is to inc and again this is a big lesson. for me. i think about chasing the screams person. is a good example i can say. worst way to go through life is to meet. people who are different to you. and say that they're terrible and. condemn them. right to me that almost all the pleasure.

in life is encountering people. encountering people who are different. and listening to them and think oh this. person's different to me that's really. interesting i think about someone. when people i most admire in the world. is a woman called christina dent. who read chasing the screams which is. why she got in touch with me. so christina is an evangelical christian. in mississippi who's a republican. right pretty different to me i'm a gay. atheist who. hates republicans right and christina. um so christina.

is very opposed to abortion and she put. her money where her mouth is. she believes that if you're going to say. that women shouldn't have abortions. you've got to help them look after the. children that are then produced. so she fosters a lot of um children. in mississippi and if you foster. children in mississippi you know most of. the kids who get taken away from their. parents. their parents have addiction problems so. christina gets to know lots of women. with addiction problems the mothers are. the kids she's fostering. and because christine is a fundamentally. kind and good person. she's just like she starts thinking why.

did no one help these mothers. years ago why are they criminalized why. are they put in prison and. denied access to public housing and all. of these things someone should have. helped them so she starts learning a lot. about drug policy one of the ways was. through. reading my book chasing the screen and. she set up a group called end it for. good. that is evangelical christians in. mississippi who are campaigning to end. the drug war. right and i got to know christina well. she's an amazing person and i think if i. had ever interacted with christina on.

twitter if i got to know her through. twitter. we would hate each other right we would. look like diametrically opposed people. in fact she's a friend of mine i love. her she's a. fundament i mean really a deeply. admirable person right. often that that kind of connection can't. happen through. anger-fueled algorithms it can only. happen in fact angerfield. algorithms will destroy those. connections right and so i used to. remember what was it that happened.

something happened with theresa may. who i'm sure you can guess i was not. politically sympathetic to. and i was about to tweet something nasty. about her. and i knew it would do well on twitter. i'm trying to remember what this was it. wasn't when she resigned it was before. that. i was about to tweet it and i just. thought i don't want to be part of this. [ __ ] machine. do i part this even someone who deserves. to be criticized as i believe you know. powerful all powerful people deserve to. have criticism and i think theresa may. deserved a lot of criticism because i. disagree with a lot of things she did.

but she thought what is this adding to. the world other than more. spite and more anger and more cruelty. there are ways to oppose harmful things. that are not cruel and angry and and i. just see. so many people that i've known for years. you know senior media people who i just. feel have been poisoned by these ways of. interaction it's made them. cruel and i don't see any superiority i. was crawl when i was. heavily using these sites it's made them. cruel. and mean and petty and and and.

worst of all i'm persuasive yeah. you know when i see people because i. think i won't name the person but i. think if someone is one of the most. followed. uh political people on twitter in. britain boris johnson no no no no uh. kirsten i'm not gonna go through it but. not a politician but someone who's a. publicly political person who i knew. god 15 years ago who was a. thoughtful interesting person when i met.

them and is now just. cuddled with uh anger and. when i met this person you could have. sat them down with any ordinary british. person. they would talk about politics and they. would have thought about what he said. you know. they wouldn't always have agreed but it. would have been thoughtful now. he could talk to maybe five percent of. the british population who would fire up. to share the anger he has and 95 just be. like what is this this is just so. aggressive and hyperbolic and over the. top.

and i don't blame this individual it's. not his fault. you've got a step away from these things. you. what i don't think you can do is be in. the middle of it be looking at it all. the time. and not be made crude or meaner by it i. just don't think you can i do think we. can change the algorithms in ways that. would mean that we wouldn't have to be. like that. but we're a long way off that right so. for me. if someone's listening to this now and i. had to ask you the very binary question. should they delete their twitter. instagram.

or not in the so we're always encouraged. to think in these d. and it's perfectly good question but. we're always encouraged to think in. these deeply individualistic. ways right it's a bit like think about. global warming biggest crisis in the. world. terrible disaster right um and we're. always encouraged to think. uh global warming's so bad should i. personally. recycle more should i personally buy. this and not that. and the truth is your individual. consumer choices make no [ __ ]. difference to global warming. what you have no virtually no power as a.

consumer. what you have is a huge amount of power. as a citizen right. we've got to if we band together as. citizens enough of us and demand that. everyone has to do certain things that. are necessary to stop. to to deal with the climate crisis then. you have power and agency. you personally tweaking your individual. behavior i mean don't do grossly harmful. things and i feel. we mentioned my own flying that's. obviously a harmful thing i i never fly. just to go on holiday but i do fly a lot. to go. to research my books and that is a a big.

burden but. it's much more meaningful to focus on. collective activity so. if people want to think about the harm. that twitter does the heart that. facebook does i would say go to the. website at the center for humane. technology run by my friend tristana. harris. which is about putting pressure on the. truth is my friend james williams who's. a former google engineer brilliant guy. lives in moscow. he always says talking about you know. should i individually delete these. things it's like thinking the solution. to air pollution is should i put on a.

gas mask. well all right if the air pollution is. really bad in beijing you might want to. put on a gas mask. but a much better thing to do is to you. know as citizens demand we deal with the. sources of air pollution right which can. be dealt with. in a similar way deleting your twitter. may well be a good thing to do i don't. use i don't ever look at twitter. almost never i use go through buffer app. but that's the equivalent of me putting. on a gas mask it gives me a very. short-term. personal uh protection but if i then go.

out into a society. where people are being made angrier more. politically extreme. having their attention destroyed because. they're all on this stuff me putting on. my own [ __ ] gas mask. it's worth doing i'm glad to protect. myself but that's not where we should. start. thinking about it right but if i'm a. selfish bastard and i want to be happier. should i delete my instagram and my. facebook and my twitter i must i don't. give a [ __ ] about everybody else this is. me being you know. just pretending um i just want to make. sure that my life is more peaceful. less chance of depression less chance of.

anxiety should i delete. twitter and facebook and instagram i. mean i personally would say. you know i mean i have it because i'm a. crudely because i. want to reach people with my messages um. you know and there's a mixture of that. some of that is the kind of benevolent. thing i think these things are important. and people need to know about and some. of that is a. more junk values uh i want to sell my. books right. but um. i don't feel i could tell an individual.

they have to make their own assessment. what do they what do they get out of it. maybe they're you know promoting their. charity or whatever i don't know. that's all following kim kardashian. i mean what i would say is know that it. comes with a huge cost. now you only you can weigh is the. benefit. worth this huge cost yeah and there's. some people who for whom it will be. right and there's many people for whom. it won't be. but i would say the constant focus on. individualism even if you're purely. selfish. to me it's a bit like okay imagine we. were having this conversation in 1937.

and we're really worried about the rise. of the nazis yeah. uh and people who worried about the rise. of the nazis let's imagine they were. saying. well i'm signing a pledge saying i. personally will not invade poland. right that's very nice i'm glad you're. not going to invade poland. but someone's going to go and have to. stop the people who are going to invade. poland yeah yeah in a similar way. fine say i'm not going to participate in. these hateful anger field agreements. good good for you. just like you shouldn't invade poland. but someone's going to have to stop the. people who are polluting the society and.

[ __ ] us all. up which doesn't mean shutting down. facebook and twitter it means uh. changing their business model um which. absolutely can be done. i mean as james williams always says the. google engineer i was talking about. um the acts existed. for more i'm gonna get this wrong the. axe existed for more than a hundred. thousand years before anyone thought to. put a handle on it. um the internet has existed for less. than 10 000 days sure but we can change. these things if we want to. it comes back to so many things we're. talking about people need to know.

that they have power you are so much. more powerful than you think. as a citizen incredible changes can. happen. when enough people persuade the people. around them. right and and do it in a spirit of love. and compassion. i think that's the perfect way to end. this conversation hooray. optimism exactly well and it's not even. like a kind of airy theory at all let's. be honest. it's true it's very practical margaret. mead the anthropologist said. never doubt that a small group of. committed citizens can change the world. it's the only thing that ever has it.

reminds me of um. watching martin luther king's last. speech where he said to this huge black. congregation. on this stage he said um he was telling. he said i'm like. you know will you guys get there you. guys get to the mountaintop he goes i. don't get there with you. but you guys get there and at that time. you never would have imagined that. america could. make the progress it's made to as you. said to the point where it's got a black. president now and. when he said those words it sounded like. you know wishful thinking or whatever. but obviously the world um.

to some degree you know last couple. years haven't been the best you know. example of that but. we got there well progress is possible. there's obviously still a long way to go. on. as you know much better and i don't want. racism and all sorts of things but. huge amount of progress is possible and. we must never. we've got to never discount the progress. that's been made because that's very. disempowering. actually you know i remember uh you know. even just things as simple as. of course we've got a huge way to go on. gender but i think about my. grandmother's right. that's not some distant past i know my.

grandmothers. i loved my grandmothers i knew them well. obviously um. when they were the age i am now my. grandmothers were not allowed to have. bank accounts in their own names. my swiss grandmother um wasn't allowed. to have a job outside the home without. her husband's. written permission he could legally beat. her he could legally rape her he didn't. but. he could in fact it was legal for men to. rape their wives. everywhere in the world when my. grandmothers were the age i am now. there were no women leaders there were. no women leaders of companies. there were no women leaders of countries.

um there were almost no women elected. representatives right this is not some. distant past. and i know we've got a lot and it's very. aggravating for women to hear a man like. me. mansplain this i get that um but and. because especially because we've still. got so much further to go but. you gotta always bear in mind the. incredible progress that happened and. how did that happen right. women didn't blow anything up they. didn't you know uh. tear the society down they they they. banded together and they fought for. something better i mean my great my. swiss grandmother didn't even have the.

vote. when she was 42 years old right and my. scottish grandmother had a. [ __ ] hard life right incredible. transformations and changes are are. possible. we need to seize the power that we have. because we were talking before we live. in a machine that's designed. to get us neglect to neglect what's. important about life we also live in a. machine that's designed to make us think. we are not powerful. a machine that's designed to make us. think we can't change things. or the only mechanism to change things. is to change the way you shop. right and there's some value in changing.

the way you shop but um. pick up the power you have right as. citizens you have we have incredible. power. we are all better off because of the. power the. previous generations have seized you. know think about you know. i'm gay you're black think about what. the lives just two generations back. again black people were in this country. they were a lot grimmer than our lives. right um. so incredible changes are possible we. just need to fight for them.

thank you i always say thank you to my. guest at the end of the podcast for. various reasons but. obviously and i know it probably makes. you feel uncomfortable because i just. repeatedly blow smoke up your ass but. um the uh you know you can literally. bless no no. not with the cameras but the effort you. go to. to put this work together is just like. outstanding right and there's so much as. we've discussed there's so much like. there's such a lack of patience and a. superficial nature to the society we. live in and. people want instant gratification but.

the delaying of the gratification and. doing the hard work. i i just you know it's just a tremendous. service that you're doing to. our society at a time that needs it the. most and especially the topics in which. you're. sticking your finger into and poking to. understand. our topics that are at the very heart of. much of our sort of social problems and. um it also present much of the. opportunities if we find the right. answers so thank you you've taught me a. ton. i can't wait for your new book right. when people ask me at any point in my. life they asked me to recommend a book i.

always say lost connections because it. was that transformative and. um yeah um and what's your twitter. handle all right. what's my snapchat my publishers give me. this [ __ ] horrendous blurb please. knock it out but i meant to say if. anyone wants to know where to get the. audio book or the book. then go to um for the depression book. www.thelostconnections.com because it. turned out there was a [ __ ] band. called lost connections. who knew and the uh.

um and the addiction book is chasing the. scream as in. dot com uh and they on those websites. you can find out where to follow me. everywhere except snapchat. because i'm strongly opposed to so and. your new book's coming soon. and soon yeah i can't wait [ __ ] me. that's going to be amazing and people. can uh also watch the. film adaptation of chasing the screen. which i meant to plug the oscar. nominated film adaptation. uh which is called the united states. versus billie holiday and is where do we. go. in britain on sky cinema in the us on. hulu.

and you should interview andrea who. played billy holliday who is. beyond a goddess and a [ __ ]. incredible person. lure her i'll give you an intro she's. she was nominated for the skirt did not. get it. i am the true victim of covered because. i would have been in the oscars. as one of the producers and i was gutted. that didn't happen anyway. plenty of time there for you for that to. happen exactly no one suffered in covey. mode. thank you so much anne cheers thanks so. much i really appreciate it.

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