Jocko Willink (Former Navy Seal): Use This Weird Trick To Overcome Fear, Anxiety & Self-Doubt!

This is what I learned from 20 years of. being in the Navy Seals. Discipline, drive, how to make decisions under. pressure, leadership, strategy, and. tactics that you can apply to business. and you can apply to your life as well. So, let's go. Jaco Willink is a former Navy Seals. officer. who uses his decades of military. training to help people become masters. of discipline and master their lives. Your excuses will destroy you. Your. default mode should be to take ownership. because if these problems are because of. me, then I'm capable of fixing these.

problems. So, what's step one? First of all, small steps can be. painful. Even something as simple as. going to the gym. If you're completely. out of shape, sometimes that can be. enough to make you say, "I'm not doing. it anymore." You need to envision a path. of where this can lead you to. Number. two, most human instinct is to hesitate. But you see that problem over there, you. got to go solve that problem. It's not. going to go away. So, if you're in the. woods and you don't know where to go, start walking. And worst case scenario, you figure out that you walked the wrong. direction. Okay, now you can go walk in. the other direction. But standing there. not doing anything is just waiting to. starve to death. And the next challenge,

detach from your emotions. Good leaders. have control of our emotions. If I have. to yell at you to get my point across, I've made like 47 other mistakes. My. goal is I don't have to say a word and. you already know what to do. Is there anything else that you'd add to. that list? Absolutely. In fact, people don't really. talk about this and this could apply to. just about anything. So if you're the. type of person that doesn't, you're. going to struggle. Jocker, was there a hardest day while. you were in the Navy Seals? Yeah, that was the lowest point of my life.

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episode. [Music]. Joo, surprisingly, I couldn't find an awful lot in your. childhood that would indicate to me how. you became the man that you are today. And I say that because there's a bit of. a stereotype that someone like you who. becomes a Navy Seal must have some kind. of traumatic early event that shaped. them to become some ultra resilient. human being. When you look back on your. childhood,

what are the sort of dominoes that fell. in that early chapter of your life that. made you the man you are today? I wish I. could positively identify the thing, the. moment. The closest I've come is that I. a little kid. I was a little kid. I. wanted to be some kind of soldier. I. wanted to be some kind of commando. And. that's I so I collected little little. soldiers, little plastic soldiers. And. one of the I had different military. units like historical military units.

from around the world. And one of the. historical military units that I had was. the British commandos. And so I had. these tiny figurines and they had. machine guns and they had kayaks and. they had uh little boats, little. inflatable boats. And I thought to. myself, that's what I want to do. I I. want to do that. I I wish I could do. that. And then when I was probably. around. 12 or 13, I realized you actually could.

do that. You could actually get the job. of being a commando. And then it was. just a matter of figuring out which one. of the American branches had the closest. thing to what I thought was a British. commando. And the closest thing that I. found was being in the being in the Navy. and being in the SEAL teams. And at 19 years old, you applied to be a. Navy Seal. Mhm. Okay. So, I have to ask a very dumb. question here, which is what is a Navy. Seal? So.

there's special operations which I guess. you know from England this is the the. the SAS and the SBS. So those are the. two sort of units that we get compared. to the most. And uh so a Navy Seal is a. part of the Navy but you're the special. operations component of the Navy. And. the the term SEAL is actually an acronym. which stands for sea, air, and land. Because even though we're in the Navy,

we are trained to operate in the sea. In. the air, so in the sea meaning we dive, in the air meaning we parachute and. repel, and then on the land meaning we. conduct land warfare operations. And you. take all those things, combine them. together, and that's what our job. consists of. I was under the assumption. that to become a Navy Seal or to be in. the SAS, you had to have 10 20 years in. of military service. You had to have. like an established military service and. then you get some like pop up on your. computer and it says like come to this.

this building over here. And so to hear. that you applied at 19 years old, I was. like, "Oh, I didn't know teenagers could. apply." Yeah. No, I I was 18 years old. when I joined the Navy and I joined on a. contract that got me sent to SEAL. training and it took a year to get. through. So I was 19 when I finished. that up. There is there's always debates about. well don't you want someone that's more. experienced and I actually loved the. fact that I was basically raised in the. SEAL teams. It it was just awesome. It. was an awesome way to grow up. It was an.

awesome way to spend those those years. of your life learning the trade that you. wanted to learn. And so I thought it was. awesome and I think it worked out pretty. well. There is a. usually the the the percentage of people. that make it through SEAL training is. about 20%. People that are under the age. of 20, it goes down to about 5%. So. yeah, I was one of those like small. percentage of people that are very young. but still make it through. And what is the characteristics that.

they're ultimately testing with the. design of that training? What are they. testing for? Will you keep going. in the face of. whatever? Well, they they call the uh one of the. weeks hell week, don't they? Mhm. So, they try and simulate hell by the. sounds of it. Yeah. They try and simulate hell. It's. it's. they actually were trying to simulate. combat initially when they created that. week. They wanted to take as much combat.

simulation from World War II at the time. and put it into a very compressed. schedule so they could create these frog. men to go overseas and conduct. operations cuz World War II was going. on. And so they needed to compress the. training cycle. So they compressed a. bunch of that combat simulation into. it's about 5 and a half days, no sleep, lots of physical activity, lots of. stress, lots of pain, and lots of people. quit. How many people quit in that particular.

week? Mo. I would say most of the people that quit. probably of of. it's probably 80% of the quitters quit. in that week. It's been long discussed. I think there's a book um called Grit. where they discuss what it takes in. terms of character traits to get through. these kinds of endurance tasks. And. people often think it's those that have. the biggest muscles or that do the most, I don't know, cardiovascular exercise. But from what you've observed, and this.

is maybe a broader point about adversity. in life, is there any similarities in. the people that are able to get. themselves through adversity? It it's. there's there's some internal. drive that you either have or you don't. have. And if you have it, you won't. quit. And if you don't have it, you're. going to quit. And it breaks people. The. other thing is you might be an. exceptional swimmer. and you might be exceptional upper body. strength but you're not that fast of a. runner. They're going to find that out.

Or you might be a fast runner but a bad. swimmer. They're going to find out what. your weaknesses. You might not like the. cold. They're going to see it. You might. not like the boat on your head. They're. going to see it. They might see that you have a bad. temper. are going to find that and. they're going to pick at that thing to. either make you come out the other side. or make you quit. It's a pretty It's a. pretty amazing. thing. It's a pretty It's a pretty. amazing thing. It's a pretty profound. thing to look at from the outside and.

and and see it cuz when I was going. through it, it was just sort of I was. young. I didn't care. I was going to do. it. There was nothing that they were. going to tell me that was going to make. me quit. I never thought about quitting. If they told me to get back in the water. again, let's go. They told me to put. that log on on my shoulder, let's go. Put the boat on my head, let's go. I I I. didn't care. Can you teach that? That. let's go. Let's We're going to jump back. in the water. Let's go. I think that I think that's one of the.

few things that you learn in basic SEAL. training is to shrug your shoulders and. go forward. Like, one of the things they do is. they'll they'll line you up on the. ocean. And this is in California. And. sometimes people think that California. is nice warm water, but it's not. It's. 55 degrees. And I don't know what that. translates to in centiggrade, but it's. cold. And one of the things they do is. they'll they'll line you up and they say. interlock arms and you get arm- arm with. the guy next to you and they say forward. march. And you march in the water and. they say take seats and you sit down and.

they leave you in there and it's called. surf torture. And you just sit there and. they'll after a while they'll pull you. up out of the water. They'll line you up. and the doctor will come down and see if. anyone has hypothermia. And if no one. has hypothermia or signs of hypothermia. yet, get back in the water. And then. they just keep doing that. And so, yeah, it's uh what you learn to do is okay, I'm going to go forward. There's no I. can't get out of this. I'm going to go. forward. I'm not going to quit. So, I'm.

going to go forward. Bring it on. And I. think if there's anything that you. learn, it's to to. keep pushing. through things that suck. And I would. love to say like, oh, so keep pushing. through adversity, but this isn't. adversity. This is just things that. suck. It's one level below adversity. Adversity is when you're having a. challenge. This is just something that's. going to suck, and you're going to have. to push through it. cuz I'm asking. myself if this is something I could. teach, you know, or I could be taught. because I I look at someone like you.

who's, you know, done all the things. that you've done through your life and I. go, did did you have some kind of innate. advantage or can we all become Joo? If I had to guess, I would say no. I I would say you can't. teach it. I would say that you can grow. it. If you've got the seed of some sort. of fire, you could probably grow and you can get. better at it. But.

it's same thing. You go back to like. prison. If you've ever met anyone that. was a prisoner of war. or people that went through like the. Baton Death March, there's some people. that had a will that they were not going. to die. They I'm not going to die. I'm going to. keep going. And and the people that. died, they they did not have the will to. live. And think about how bad things. have to be before you say, you know. what, I'm just going to lay here and. die.

That and that can get to that point. I. had a guy on my podcast that was he was. shot down in Vietnam and he was shot. down in South Vietnam, captured and so. he had to do a seven-month trek through. the jungle with his captors and at one. point he's in a two-ft tall bamboo cage. in the jungle and he's trying to fall. asleep but he can't sleep because the. rats are gnawing at the wounds on his.

legs and and he shackled. And he was with guys. that. did not have the the intrinsic will to. carry on. And if you didn't have that. will to carry on, you die. You talked about the role that having a. why plays and I was thinking about, you. know, if I just if I just lost my. girlfriend or someone I'd gone through.

some severe rejection or someone in my. life had died and their part my parting. promise to them was I was going to do. this. The role that having some kind of. reason to carry on plays in how we. handle adversity or things that suck. Did you see have you seen any patterns. in that? Is it important? cuz there's. books behind me that literally say start. with your why and those kinds of things. Yeah. And you know that's a. anything from oh my girlfriend dumped me. and I'm going to prove her wrong to.

something that much more significant. which is my girlfriend died and I told. her I was going to do this. I'm going to. do it for her. Both those things. depending on the human being can be a. strong enough I a strong enough why to. get through. And I've I've I have. friends that were. I have one friend that was into Vietnam. He was in Vietnam and when he showed up. SEAL training, he didn't know what it. was. He thought he was volunteering to. be like a diver, a a diver that would do. construction under under boats. He.

thought that that that what it was. And. so he showed up and they're like, "This. is SEAL training. He's what's a seal?". And they kind of explained it to him and. then he went and made it through all. that torture, all that mayhem. And why? cuz that was what they were telling him. to do. And he was, "Okay, that's what. we're doing. Let's go." So, again, I. would love to be able to, you know, give. you this profound anchor that people. need to have, but it's like, "Oh, do do. you want to do this or not?" Which is.

what I think a lot of it boils down to. Do you actually want to do this or not? Do you actually want to do this or not? Because if you actually want to do it, what's going to stop you? Nothing. And. if you don't really want to do it, what's going to stop you? Just about. anything that comes up, just about any. obstacle that gets in your way becomes. an excuse. It becomes a reason. It comes. a rationale for not proceeding down that. path. And and and this is interesting, too. You when you talk to people that. went to SEAL training that didn't make. it, most of the time it's.

some reason. There's a medical reason. There's a family problem. There's very. few people that look at you and say, "Oh, I quit cuz it sucked." Which is. what, by the way, which is what happens. to the vast majority of people. The vast. majority of people that don't make it. through SEAL training, and by this I. mean 80 90% of the people that don't. make it through SEAL training, they. didn't make it through because they. quit. Then there's a small percentage. that had a medical problem. And then. there's a small percentage that got. performance dropped, meaning they.

couldn't perform the runs, the swims, the the the technical aspects of the. job, and they failed. and they get. dropped. But the vast majority of. people, they quit. But they don't. usually say that. And even in their. mind, they probably don't believe it. They probably believe, well, you know, it was my leg and once my leg was. hurting, I knew I was going to have a. hard time on the runs. And since I. wasn't going to be able to make the. runs, I just that's why I quit. But it. wasn't really quitting. It was cuz my. leg. So, it's it's it's like I said, it's a.

very it's a very strange and and and and. really kind of a a mystical thing. Excuses. You're talking there about. people making excuses. Yeah. What have you come to learn about the. nature of excuses and if they are our. friends, our enemies, if they're ever. useful, your excuses will destroy you and take. everything that you ever wanted from you. if you let them. Doesn't sound like a friend. No, it's definitely not a friend. It's. definitely not a friend. It It can seem. like a friend just like your friend that.

uh keeps feeding you drinks at the bar. can seem like a friend, but are they. really helping you in any way, shape, or. form? No, they're not. They're not. So, when you when your excuses make you feel. a little bit better about the fact that. you didn't execute on what you needed to. execute on, then they can make you feel better, but. they're not helping you. They're not. helping you at all. Is that what you. when you think about extreme ownership, which is the title of um this book here. in front of me, is are excuses the. opposite? Excuses and blame, is that the.

opposite of extreme ownership? That is. the opposite of extreme ownership. Extreme extreme ownership is this went. wrong. This failed, didn't accomplish. this, and it's not the fault of my boss. It's not the fault of my girlfriend. It's not the fault of my parents. It's. not the fault of the weather. It's my. fault, and I'm going to take ownership. of it, and I'm going to fix it. That's. what extreme ownership is. And this is a. very difficult thing to do because it. hurts. Because when you look around at.

your life and you look around at your. job and your financial situation and. your relationship and your physical. health and when you look at all those. things and all the problems that you may. have with those things and you say, "The. reason I have all those problems. is because of me.". That can hurt. That can sting. And a lot of times our ego rejects that. and makes excuses and lies and then we.

don't have to change anything and then. nothing changes. if someone was on the extreme end of. that disease of excuse and blame and all. of those things. Is there anything that. you could do or you would advise them to. do to kind of walk back from there to. get over the other side? Because I think. we can all think of people in our lives. and maybe even ourselves at times who. have gotten into a chronic pattern of. using excuses and blame as a form of. self-defense because we don't want to. turn that mirror back at us and have to.

confront reality. Like I think sometimes. if I think about my some of my closest. friends, those that have the lowest. self-esteem will use excuses and blame. the most because it's, you know, personal responsibility might. not in the short term at least do. anything for my already low self-esteem. So I'm going to blame the world as. self-defense. What's step one to get out. of that? Well, unfortunately, what. happens a lot, and you you may or may.

not have seen this, but I I would assume. you've seen this at some point in your. life, people, and this is a term. There's a. term it's rock bottom, right? This is a. term that we hear for someone that's. addicted, someone that's an alcoholic, someone that's physically let themselves. go, someone that's put themselves into a. situation with their finances or their. work or whatever, where they reach rock. bottom. But when it when it when the. excuses all go away and people can.

actually confront the fact that this is. all because of me and this is it hurts. but is also unbelievably empowering. because if these problems are because of. me then I'm. capable of fixing these problems. So. even though extreme ownership hurts and. is painful, it's also liberating because. now you have control over your fate and. over your destiny and that is a glorious.

thing. Is that to you how you start to. build confidence? Confidence seems to be. this really elusive thing. Confidence. ultimately is a belief you have and. these beliefs are like instruction. manuals for our life. You must have seen. in your you know in your all your years. some people really build their. confidence and I guess you've seen other. people destroy their confidence. So what is the nature of how we build. our own confidence? Yep. You're right. I have seen it and. I've had to do it to people. I had to.

take people and build their confidence. And so how do you do that? You know, if. you're a young officer in the SEAL teams. and you you feel like maybe you kind of. got here, you got lucky, you barely made. it through training and all of a sudden. I'm saying, "Hey, you're in charge of. this squad right here." And you don't. feel like you have the confidence to do. it. And so it comes time to make a. decision and you're sort of looking. around and the guys are looking at you. like, "Hey, you going to make a call or. what?" And finally someone just steps on. you and says, "Hey, I got it. Hey, everyone move over to this building.". And now your confidence goes down even. lower, which is a problem. So how am I.

going to build your confidence? Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to. take you I'm going to put you into a. situation. that I know you can handle. I'm going to. put I'm going to give you a task that I. know you can do. It's look, it's not. going to be a total softball. It's not. going to be a joke of a task, but I'm. going to give you something that I know. you can handle. And I'm going to let you. do that. And I might let you do that. two, three, four, five times. I might. say, "Hey, on this next operation, Stephen, I want you to uh you're going. to you're going to you're going to hold. the left flank with your with your.

squad. The whole everyone else is. assaulting buildings. They're setting up. external SC. You're just Hey, just you. just hold this. You just set your team. up on this burm over here. and and watch to the north. And look, this is a pretty easy job. All right. And so you go out there, you take your. team, you get on the burm, you look to. the north, you do a good job. confidence goes up a little bit. Now, look, there was no pressure. You didn't. have to make any decisions, but you did. what you were supposed to do. And I. might have you do that two or three.

times. And then the next time I say, "Hey, you know what? Hey, good job out. there. I'm going to build up your. confidence a little bit." And then I'm. going to say, "Hey, I need you to handle. security to the north. and to the west." All right? So, you're. going to have two squads now. So, I'm. just going to give you small tasks that. I know you can handle to build up your. confidence and over time you will become. more and more confident and you're going. to hit some challenges and you'll. overcome those challenges and if you do. great your confidence grow if you fail. in a challenge I might have to reset you.

a little bit but this this sounds like a. big long process but it's actually. usually not that long it's actually. people kind of nod their head oh yeah I. can do this contrarily sometimes I get a. a guy who's overconfident. and you know I got Stephen walking here. like uh you're darn right I should be in. charge and what do I do with you because. now you got an ego you're not listening. to people now I'm like hey Stephen you. know since you're doing so awesome why. don't you run this whole assault team. tonight and you go yeah no problem and.

then you get out there and you're not. ready to lead a whole assault team. you're not ready for that chaos and that. confusion and that mayhem and so about. halfway through the assault when there's. you've completely lost control. I might. walk in and say, "Hey, Stephen, I'm. sending Chief down there to straighten. you out." And you go, "Roger, thank. you." And you get humbled. So, if someone's trying to build. confidence from a work perspective, we. do the same thing. Whether it's a a. business, a company, give that person a.

task, a project that they can handle and. help them build their confidence. Now, as far as you as an individual human. being, it's a very similar process. Train, study, work, practice. Train, study, work, practice. Train, study, work, practice. And eventually. you will increase your confidence. So I in your book you were talking about. the fact that you didn't like speaking.

You didn't like public speaking. So what. did you do? Did you sign up to go talk. in front of a thousand people, you know, tomorrow afternoon? No, you started. small and you built a little bit of. confidence and then you win a little bit. bigger of an audience and the confidence. grows a little bit more. Little bit. bigger audience, the confidence grows. and you get to a point where there's no. audience that's going to stumble you in. any way. So that's the same process. It's it's basically exposure therapy, right? It's it's basically exposure. therapy where you expose yourself to a.

little bit and this is you know you're. talking about Jordan Peterson exposure. therapy. I give you a little bit. I. don't overwhelm you with it because if I. overwhelm you with it, you're going to. be scared of it. I mean, if you lack. confidence and I put you in charge of. something that you can't handle, your. confidence is going to go back even. further. So, I need to give you enough. exposure that you do well, increase your. confidence, and you're going to do fine. Whenever we're swimming, I don't know, a. couple of centimeters just outside of.

our depth in any regard, we have that. thing that some people have dubbed. imposter syndrome where we start, the. story we tell ourselves about this depth. is that we're a fraud. We shouldn't be. out this far. Um, we're going to get. found out. And that can sometimes I. think if we tell ourselves that story. about whatever, you know, depth we're. swimming at, that lowers our. performance. Sometimes it can make us. our confidence decrease. What is your. take on this term imposter syndrome? Do. you think it's a real thing? Yeah, I think it's a real thing and I. don't think it's bad. I don't think it's.

bad because if once again, if you're. coming to work for me and you're like, I'm glad you hired me. I'm ready to take. over this department. Look out. I'd be a little bit questioning. the fact that you're so overconfident. that you're going to go in and do things. that you might not really understand. Now, if you had a little imposter. syndrome and you said, "Hey, Jo, I. really appreciate you hiring me. Um, you. know, I haven't really done this type of. work before. Can I ask you a couple.

questions?" I'd be thinking to myself, "Okay, he's humble. He's wanting to do a good job. He. doesn't think he knows everything." I'd. feel more comfortable with someone like. that. So, I don't think imposttor. syndrome is a bad thing. I think if you. feel it, it's actually a good indication. that you're humble and you have an open. mind and you're going to listen to what. people have to say. So that's number. one. And number two, if you feel like. you have imposttor syndrome, if you. going to. a meeting and you're going to get.

assigned a project or you're going to be. discussing a project that you're really, wait, should I even be here? Should I be. put in charge of this project? What you. do is you go into the meeting and you. say, hey everyone, I really appreciate. everyone coming to the kickoff of this. meeting. Hey, just so everyone knows, this is my first time running a project. like this. I'm definitely going to have. some questions for some of you that done. this before. So, if you see me going off. track on something and you see a mistake. that I'm making, please let me know. because what I want is for the team to. win. Okay, there it is. It's on the table. I.

don't know everything. I'm not that. experienced in this particular thing, but I'm humble and willing to listen, and I want the team to do well. No more. imposter syndrome. Is that the same in the Navy Seals? cuz. one would assume that you, you know, as. a leader, you've got to tell people what. to do. That is. wrong. In the Navy Seals, and that is. not a good assumption. In the SEAL. teams, you the good leaders in the SEAL. teams absolutely have an open mind, want. to hear other people's opinions on how. to execute an operation, want to hear.

what shortfalls there are when a plan is. presented that, hey, what about this and. what about that? And a good leader is. not going to impose plan as in fact my. standard operating procedure was to have. my subordinate leadership come up with. plans instead of me trying to come up. with the plans. In fact, that's the best. way to operate. That means you ask them for the plan. 100%. Why? There's a multitude of reasons. Number.

one, I want you to have ownership of the. plan, right? So, if I'm imposing a plan. on you, then that's not really your. plan. I want you to I want you to come. up with a plan and I want you to go to. your team and I want you to collectively. come up with a plan that you all embrace. and understand and buy into. So, it's. going to be a better plan from your. perspective if you come up with it. Also, if I come up with a plan, I'm in. the plan. So, when I'm in the plan, I. can't see the plan as well. I want to be.

outside the plan looking at it from the. outside from a different perspective. where then I can see the holes in the. plan and I can ask you some questions. about the plan that you came up with. And finally, if I'm coming up with a. plan, if I'm staring down at the map. coming up with a plan, well, who's. looking up and out? Who's looking at the. followon operations? Who's looking at. where our our other units are out in the. battlefield? Who's checking on the. intelligence that we're gathering about. the enemy? If I'm looking down and in, I'm not looking up and out. If I'm.

coming up with a plan myself, I'm. looking down and in. If I'm letting you. come up with a plan, I can look up and. out. You can look down and in. And we. can have a lot more awareness of the. battlefield. Often leaders and managers, we get, I. think, caught up in. in the proverbial trenches. We get a. little bit too close to the painting, so. we can't see the picture. How important do you think it is to be. the leader that's able to take a step. back?

That is the job of a leader. That is the. job of a leader to take a step back, detach from the situation and. see the entire picture of what is. unfolding or what is being planned or. what is happening. If you are in the problem, you won't see. the solution to the problem. it it you we will very rarely. So you. have to be able to detach. And that's. one of the the main things that I tried. to teach young leaders when I was in the.

SEAL teams. It's the same thing that I. try and teach leaders now is to take a. step back, detach from the chaos, detach. from the mayhem, detach from your. emotions, detach from your ego, and be. able to assess the best way to execute. and. give, you know, the book, the book is. called Extreme Ownership that you. referenced. That doesn't mean that I do. everything myself. In fact, what I want to do is I want you. to take ownership. And how do I get you. to take ownership? I give it to you. Hey, Stephen, how do you want to run.

this project? And and listen, what if you come up with a terrible. plan? Oh, no. No. Let's say let's say. you come up with a let's say I come up. with like I in my mind I've got. something that's going to be a 95%. solution. And I say, well, you know, I'm. going to delegate. So, Stephen, how do. you want to do this? And you come up. with like an 80% solution. Now, what. should I do? I'll tell you. I'll still let I'll still. run with your plan. I'll be like, "Okay,

Stephen, sounds good." If you come to me. with a 70% plan, I might say, "Hey, Stephen, what about this?" And you go, "Yeah, I'm going to make adjustment. there." And all of a sudden, we got it. to a 78% plan and we're still good. If. you come to me with a 20% plan now, I. can ask you three or four questions. before you say, "Hey, Jo, let me I'll be. back in a couple hours. I'm gonna go. reformulate this thing." And by the way, all that's training you, right? All. those questions are training you. You. coming up with a plan is training for. you. Because if if I'm got people that. work for me and they can't come up with.

a plan by themselves, I'm complete. failure as a leader. So, I'm going to. train you so that you can come up with. plans and I can look up and out. takes a lot of patience, doesn't it? Because you know, you know, in those. many of those situations that you're not. going to get from A to B as fast as you. possibly could have. It's a investment in a long-term. efficiency because even though I might. have to invest a little bit more time. right now and I spent 10 minutes. explaining to you why this tactic would.

be better than that tactic, even though. it's going to cost me 10 minutes right. now or maybe a half an hour, we look up. in 6 months and you're actually coming. up with better plans than me. You know, I read throughout your books. you went from being that young teenager. who passed training to really like. leading the Navy Seals in many respects. Well, leading an element of SEALs. Yeah, that's um when you look back on that. accomplishment,

have you figured out what it is about. you in particular. that allowed you enabled you to do that? Is that something? Is that Is there a. muscle you grew? I was I'm a hard worker. I, you know, I I was never great at. anything like as a kid. I wasn't the. fastest. I wasn't the strongest. I. wasn't the smartest.

But I did I did know that I could work. hard. I had to work hard and I listened. to people. I didn't think I knew. everything. I I even sometimes I'll joke. about, yeah, you know, when you're young. and arrogant, even when I was young and. arrogant, like we all are when we're 23. years old or 22 years old and you're. young, you think you know everything. Even then, I always had that little like. you don't know everything. And I think. that humility paid a played a big role.

in me being able to be successful. because I was never afraid to say, "Hey, I'm not 100% sure what to do right now. What do you guys think?" Or, "Hey, I. feel like I've reached the limitations. of my thought process. I need some. help." And so, I think that's one of the. main reasons that I was able to to to do. a good job to do to do a good job. When. I meet someone like you, I I wonder I. go, "This guy must have seen so many. things. So many things that the average.

human being will absolutely never see, you know, and I cuz you were you were. sent all around the world on some. absolutely incredible unimaginable. missions for for 20 20 years for for the. average person who has no idea what your. eyes have seen. Can you paint me a picture of some of. those extremes? Well, it's war.

So, it's it's war. It's. people being wounded, people being. killed in Iraq with the insurgents that. we were fighting. It's them. torturing people, mutilating their. bodies, raping. beheading people. horror.

But you know, it's interesting when when. I talk to other people, when I meet. people, I always think to myself, what you're saying that you think when. you see me, I always think that when I. see other people because. other people, we don't know what they've. been through. You don't know what kind.

of childhood they've had. You don't know. what kind of horrors they've seen. You. don't know what kind of abuse they've. suffered. you don't want to kind of you. don't know what kind of trials and. tribulations other people have faced. So. I I don't I I look at everyone and and. and also the trials and tribulation that. someone face someone faces. that that's profoundly difficult for. them regardless of what it was. regardless of if they were a a person. that you know got injured really bad.

they're when they were in high school, they're 15 years old and they broke. their leg and they they they couldn't. play their sport anymore and now they're. 17, but that was a traumatic thing for. them. And yeah, so when I when I look at other. people, when I talk to other people, I. always think everyone everyone every. human faces challenges and you don't. know what they've been through and they. they might have been through things that. are worse than what I've been through.

And I usually my assumption is people. have been through a lot of challenges. and. they they persevered through it and here. they are. So I'm going to give them the. benefit of the doubt. But humans aren't supposed to be exposed. to those kinds of images. And I think if. you spoke to, I know a trauma. psychologist, they would they would. class a lot of those things that you've. seen as what they call like tort. traumas, like really really traumatic.

events. How how does someone like you go. about processing those things to ensure. that that trauma doesn't show up in. later life? You know, we talk about. soldiers coming back from war suffering. with PTSD and things like that. What. have you done to sort of insulate. yourself or at least help you understand. some of some of the things you saw? There's evil in the world. when there's evil people in the world. and evil people are going to do heinous. and atrocious things.

and that's a reality and that's always. been the reality. and the best thing that I can do is well. when I was in the military do my best to. to stop that kind of atrocious behavior. and. when and I'm out of the military. Try. not to try and. help people move away from those.

thoughts. I mean, when you're talking. about like your my my family like my. family didn't. they my wife wasn't tracking what was. going on when I was overseas. She didn't. know what was happening. most of the time. you know, when my guys. got wounded or my guys got killed, she. knew. She went to their she went to the. hospital to visit them. She went to. their funerals, but I wasn't dragging.

her down. the the. to the depths of human nature. I took that and same with my kids. I. didn't share with them that these things. happen. So, and and that's so so I think. from my perspective, you know, it's like the reality of the. world is yeah, there's evil people in. the world. I accept that reality. I understand that. reality. There's also good people in the.

world and there's people that do amazing. things. There's people that sacrifice. their lives for their friends. and that's part of humanity. So I like to focus on that part of. humanity rather than. the dark side of humanity. But if you. really want to appreciate the. the light and the good, then you have to. recognize that there's darkness and.

there's evil. Was there a hardest day while you were. in the Navy Seals? Is there a day you. look back on and say that was the the. most sort of emotionally testing day? Yeah. Losing guys in combat. and that stays with you? Oh yeah. Always. I just can't imagine,

you know, I just can't I've never lost a. friend. I've got two older brothers. I've never lost my brothers. I just. can't imagine. I can't imagine how. difficult it is to like go forward when. you've lost, you know, you refer to. these people as your brothers. and. I'm not unique.

And the guys we were over in the Battle. of Amati when we were over there, the. the Army and the Marine Corps, they were. losing guys every day. This is not. unique. I'm not unique. There's guys. that were in charge of units that lost. 10, 12, 15 guys. And. it's not unique for human beings either. because even though you haven't lost any. friends, you haven't lost any of your.

brothers, you will. This is part of life. And so. this is part of life. people have, you know, everyone's died. and in combat people have died and. people carried on. and I know that my friends that died, they would not want me to sit around and. mourn and and and.

break down and drink and and and pop. pills. They wouldn't want me to do that. at all. They'd want me to live. That's. what they would want. They would want me. to live. They want me to go out and make. things happen. and and drive on and enjoy and surf and. play guitar and do jiu-jitsu. That's. what they'd want me to do. 100%. 100%. In fact, they would be disgusted. if what I did with the gift that they.

gave me was piss it away. They'd be. disgusted. And I won't do that. Not Not. a chance. I'm going to live like they would want. me to. In those moments, that's certainly what logic tells you. But those moments, it's hard to be. logical in those moments, right? Yeah.

I. ended up with some pattern recognition. on this whole scenario. Unfortunately, because when you lose. friends over and over and over again, you start to see what happens from an. emotional perspective, from a spiritual. perspective, from a physical. perspective. And what I what I.

began to recognize as a pattern is and. the way that I explain this to people. that go through loss like this is you're. going to have you're not going to be in. control of your emotions sometimes. So, and since you're 31 years old, you've. had control pretty good control over. your emotions since you were 7 years old. or 8 years old. Occasionally you'd break. down. Occasionally you'd lose your. temper. But you've gotten more and more.

in control the older you've got gotten. So you're not used to not being in. control of your emotion. We as adults. are not used to losing control of our. emotions. So what's going to happen? You. lose one of your friends. You lose one. of your family members. You're going to. get hit with a wave waves of emotion. that you can't control. And this sometimes. causes people to to. really overreact.

and think that they're in this terrible. place cuz they think, "Oh my gosh, I've. been able to control my emotions for the. last 30 years and now I'm losing now I'm. I'm I can't control my emotions. There's. something wrong with me." Is what they. think. And this is what I learned is that those. waves of emotion, they're gonna they're gonna roll back. and you're gonna you're going to get. control again. You're going to take a. breath and then you're going to get hit. with another storm, but it's going to go.

away. And you're going to get hit with. another storm, but it's not going to be. as strong. And then it's going to go away. And. you're going to get hit with another. storm, but it's going to be a longer. period of time. and it's not going to be. as strong. And what this is is this is your. this is you processing what happened. And eventually you do get you regain. control of your emotions. And there's. still going to be times there's still. going to be times where you're going to.

be 3 years, 5 years, 10 years down the. road, you're going to hit with a wave of. emotion and. you're going to be caught off guard. It's going to catch you. I had a guy on. my podcast. that was in World War II, Korea, and. Vietnam. And so we were we we talked about World. War II where he was, you know, a young. private soldier. And then he was a. little bit more senior when he was in. Korea. And then in Vietnam, he was a.

battalion commander. So he's in charge. of 700 guys. and we we were talking and I I I said. something along the lines of I I asked. him something about his the casualties. that he took in his battalion. And so. now this is you know he was in Vietnam. in I don't know 1967 or 1968 so it's. been 60 years. and I asked him about casualties that he. took and he got choked up.

Got choked up. lost control of his. emotions for a for a second. And when I. saw that, I felt so relieved. I felt so relieved because I thought, "Oh, it's always going to be like this.". And that's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's normal. Lost your friends, lost. your brothers. Is it Is it Is it wrong that you get.

choked up when you talk about There's. nothing wrong with that. Here's a guy. that lost his lost lost some of his men. 60 years ago and he's getting choked up. right now. Why? Cuz he loved him. Cuz he he wishes he could have brought. him through that conflict and he didn't. and he feels it and he lived a normal. life. Retired from the army, got follow. on jobs and had another career. But he lost his friends, his brothers, his men, and that hurts. And it's not.

going to go away. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with you. Nothing. wrong with me. There's nothing wrong. with me. Do I get choked up sometimes? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I lost some of my best friends. Does that hurt? Yep. Do I wallow in that? No. Do I dwell in those emotions? Nope. I. don't. And they wouldn't want me to. and.

they'd be disappointed if I did. I think it's really important because as. men we we don't we get conflicting. messages about emotion and how to. express it and what that looks like and. if there's weakness to certain emotions. or if you know but the it's the. psychology seems to be pretty clear that. the suppression of these emotions, the. trying to hide them, the total. compartmentalizing of them doesn't. actually make them goes go away. They. just appear somewhere else in a bottle.

or in some kind of recreational drug or. somewhere else. So, and nor does. suppressing them isn't going to help. And nor is letting them run your life. So, because you're sad now you're going to. make a bunch of bad decisions cuz you're. sad. No. No. It doesn't doesn't work. like that. Doesn't work like that. You're sad. Okay. You get emotional sometimes. Okay. Got. it. Now, get control of your emotions. and carry on with your life. And.

sometimes you're going to get hit with. those waves, and that's okay. I I think. that's a big misconception. and sort of relates to what you're. saying. Oh, I'm I'm having an emotional moment. right now. There's something wrong with. me. No, there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. The. other extreme is, oh, I'm letting my. emotions run my life and I'm making a. bunch of bad decisions and my excuse is, well, you know, I lost some friends or I. had this traumatic experience happen to. me. That's why I'm doing that's just an.

excuse and it's a very easy excuse. And. in society, the last thing I want to say. to you is, well, you can't act like. that. Oh, you lost one of your friends. Hey, that doesn't mean you can make. excuse. You can't use that excuse. No, I. I go, "Hey, man. Uh, okay." It's what I say, right? I'm a polite person. I'm. empathetic person. You're sad. You're. making bad decisions. You're saying it's. cuz you lost your friend or you went. through this traumatic thing. And I go, "Okay, I.

how can I help?" Instead of saying, "Hey, man. Yeah, guess what? It's time. to carry on.". Don't Don't dwell on the I I I've told a. thousand veterans this. Remember, don't. dwell. Remember, remember your friends. Don't. dwell in the past, though. Remember, don't dwell. That's what we. have to do. And the emotions. Yes. Embrace those emotions, but don't let.

those emotions embrace you. Don't let those emotions run your life. There is there is a cuz people say, "Oh, uh, suppressing your emotions is bad.". Okay, so I'm just going to let all these. emotions out and they're going to run my. life now. No, no, no. At a certain. point, you say, "Okay, my emotions are. now leading me down the wrong path. I'm in control. I'm not going to allow my emotions to. make my decisions." They're in the. calculus. I'm not saying take your.

emotions out of the calculus, but they. have to be one component of your. calculus, not the whole equation. The. equation has to include emotions. Yes. Logic, yes. Future, yes. Goals, yes. Family, yes. Work, yes. Finances, yes. All those things have to be in the. calculus. Emotions has to be a part of. the that calculus. You can't pull them. out of there or they'll bite you. But. you can't make them the overwhelming.

denominator of everything that you do or. it's going to be problematic. I heard you tell a story which I thought. was really inspiring. Actually, I was. just listening to it before you came. about a friend of yours who was going. through hardship in their life and you. your advice for them was to start. walking. Yeah. Yeah. It was a guy who was Yeah. going. through hardship with his job, with his. marriage, and the marriage was coming to.

an end. The job was not was going to. come to an end as well. And he's out. there and doesn't know what to do. And the analogy that I set up for him is. if I'm in the woods, which is where you. are right now, you're in the woods and. you don't know where to go cuz the. wife's not there anymore. The job's not. there anymore. You don't know where to. go right now. So if you're in the woods. and you don't know where to go, start walking. You got to start walking because the.

perspective is not going to change. You. have to start moving forward. You have. to t start start taking steps in order. to improve your vision, improve your. perspective, change your perspective, make some kind of progress. And worst. case scenario, you figure out that you. walked the wrong direction. Okay, now. you can go walk in the other direction. And that's that's going to be fine. But. standing there lost and not doing. anything is just waiting to die, waiting. to starve to death. Don't let that happen.

It's overthinking. It's that anxiety. It's that ruminating that I think I've I. mean I've done it multiple times in my. life when the solution is I can't get to. certainty on the problem. So I I try and. think my way out of the problem which. only seems to cause more harm than good. Yeah. There's definitely a level of. risk conditioning that you get inside. the military because there's you're not. you're just not going to be certain. about anything. And you have to be able.

to say, "Yep, I'm going to make this. decision right now and here's what we're. going to do. I'm going to make the. smallest decision possible. Going to. take the smallest step possible, but I'm. going to take a step because I'm never. going to know everything. And if I take. the time to try and know everything, everything will have changed by the time. I know it. So, I'm going to absolutely. take that step and take that action. I mean, that's a metaphor for life as. well, cuz there's a lot of people trying. to get to 100% certainty whether to. leave the job or the marriage or the. start the business and they're.

struggling maybe at 60 70 maybe 80 90%. certainty. But for some reason, we seem. to need, you know, certainty. That's why I use the what I what I call. the iterative decision-m process. I'm. only to take small steps. So, am I trying to leave my I don't like my. job. I'm miserable there. Okay. Does. that mean I walk in tomorrow morning and. say, "Hey, boss, I hate it here. I. quit." No, it doesn't mean that. It. means I say, "Okay, I'm going to start. putting my resume together. I'm going to start checking out.

LinkedIn. I'm going to start seeing what. qualifications I might need that could. improve my ability to get a new job. Once I've done that, I'm going to start. sending out my resume. I'm going to. start building some relationships with. some people. And now I look up and I get. another job offer. So, I didn't make a. crazy short-termed emotional decision. I. made a slow, progressive, iterative. decision-making process that led me from.

a situation that I didn't like to an. opportunity that seems more promising. And this could apply to just about. anything. I see this a lot in businesses. I see. that the the real cost in business. I. spent about 10 years working in. marketing. So I was my job was to work. with the CMO and the CEO helping them to. try and make certain marketing. decisions. You know that invest in this. platform, do this thing, whatever. And I. came to learn over time that the biggest. cost wasn't making a bad decision. It.

was the time you waste the nine months. waiting for Joanna to get back from. annual leave so we can have a meeting. with Dave and procurement to get the. invoice signed off versus the CEOs that. I worked with that said, "Let's do it. now." When the decision was quite. clearly. low cost, relatively low cost or. reversible. Mhm. It was always speed that seemed to to. pretty much speed that seemed to win out. because most decisions are either. reversible or actually more. inconsequential than you think. Very few. decisions are final. Very few decisions.

are final. Even something like buying a. house. Should I buy this house? Oh my. gosh, it seems if you buy a house and. you decide it wasn't the house that you. wanted, you sell the house. It's like now look, could you get caught. in a bad market and could Yeah, that can. absolutely happen. So, you need to be. smart about your decisions that you. make. But most things are not as final. as they seem. Most things you're going. to be able to and will you look you paid. the realer so you lost 3% there. You.

paid the other realer, you lost 3%. You. had to pay the mortgage fees. So you're. going to lose some money, but it's not. like you buy a million- dollar house and. then you decide you don't like it. You. don't lose a million dollars. You lose. 80 grand or whatever, you know, and it's. okay. Two years, three years, you get it. back. What? So people think of decisions. as being permanent. Yeah. If you're if. you're in marketing and you approach me. and you say, "Hey, listen, CEO, there's. a new marketing. opportunity that we'd like to get you. into." And I go, "How much did it cost?".

And you say, "A million dollars." And I. say, "Oh, that's a lot of money. Can is. there can I try it for a shorter period. of time?" "Well, yeah, but you won't get. as much for your for you won't get as. much volume." And I say, "Okay, well, still I don't want to invest that much. cuz I'm not sure about it. Let's test it. and see where it goes." and you say, "Okay, we'll try that. Here's 100 grand. and let's see what feedback we get, and. if it's good, it's good. If it's not, we. go somewhere else." Do you think you're. conditioned in some ways to have this. sort of um bias towards taking action?

Because if your background in the seals, there was often some kind of time. urgency. There was some factor that's. causing you to have to take a decision. Is that. Yeah. In business and life, there's not. there's not like we're going to lose. this or someone's going to die or. there's going to be an attack. In the. business world, the consequences are. prolonged and usually not as extreme. So, you can get away with less action. even though eventually it will catch up. with you. And you've got an example of. that in your book. And the the.

father-son deal and one of them takes 9. months to execute and the other one. executes immediately. And the one that. executes immediately is successful. The. one that doesn't takes nine months to. execute fails. So it eventually inaction. will cost you in and you say. interestingly that oh in the SEAL teams. you must be conditioned to do this. I. had to condition people to take action. even in the SEAL teams. Even a young. SEAL leader who you would think would be.

by nature aggressive and an action. taker. You put them in a pressure. situation where there's not a ton of. information and they need to make a. decision. They don't want to act either. So, one of the things that I would teach. was that their default mode was to be. aggressive. Their default mode was to. take action. I would teach that. Same. thing we just discussed. I wouldn't say, "Hey, look, that means you have to take. action." But your default setting should. be I'm going to do something. Cuz I'd. have a young SEAL officer and there'd be. some training mission and there'd be a. problem in a building and there'd be a. bunch of paintball flying around in.

there and he wouldn't want to go solve. that problem. he'd back away from that. problem and I would have to go like push. him in the back and say, "You see that. problem over there? You got to go solve. that problem." It's not going to go. away. You got to be aggressive. That's. got to be your default mode is to take. action and make things happen because. most human instinct is to wait. Most. human instinct is to hesitate. Most. human instinct is to let things go. longer and stick with the status quo.

that seems to be on the on the front the. lowest risk. in the situation is to not do anything. It usually appears to be the lowest. risk. But just like the example that you. gave in your book, it's it definitely. seems lower risk. Oh well, he wants. money, wants investment, new thing and I. don't know the lowest risk in that. situation is to not do anything. And. that's what many people do whether. they're in the SEAL teams or whether. they're in business. So to train people. to oh I need to take risk some level of.

risk take action because in the long run. I say seven out of 10 seven out of 10. times action is better than inaction 70%. of the time action there's definitely. times where you got to hesitate there's. definitely times where you got to hold. back there's definitely and that's the. other book you got there is called the. dichotomy of leadership because there's. times yes absolutely action. aggression there's also times the other. end of the spectrum was like, "Yep, now's not the time to make a move." So, it's it's definitely a dichotomy, but.

the. to me 70% of the time, you better take. that action. That's got to be your. default mode. I asked you what your your hardest day. in um the seals were and you said about. losing friends, what was what was your. proudest day? Is there a proudest day. where you go, do you know what? I I. really showed up in a in a way that I to. a standard that I held myself to. And. because I did, we accomplished something. great together.

against the odds. There's a a multitude. of times where I was in Iraq. I was in a detached moment in time, you know, moving down a street, sitting in a vehicle, maneuvering, and I was and I was. watching my guys. I could see my guys and I could see what. they were doing. And I could see.

one of the most beautiful things in the. world, which was guys that were. exceptional at their job, working. together as a team, maneuvering, protecting each other, accomplishing the. mission. And I got to see that many times. And. that's always had nothing to do with me. Had to do with them. Had to do with.

being able to see. Look, were we perfect? No. But were. there moments. when you see an element cover and move. for each other. on the battlefield? A simple plan with the right priorities. with decentralized command. Was there. times when I got to see all those. things? Yes. And that without a doubt, those. were those are the best days.

Says something about, you know, and I. think I've kind of seen this throughout. your work is you have a real focus on. service, serving others as a path to I. guess fulfilling yourself. And we often. think I think many people think in life. that the path to self-fulfillment is to. serve yourself. But it seems like you've. kind of figured out that the path is by. serving others. Yeah, I think that's. there's there's an underlying. core.

component and belief and and innate DNA. in the SEAL teams. and that is you take care of your you. take care of your friends. and and that's not. in fact if you're the type of person. that doesn't take care of your friends, you're not going to be a good seal. you're not going to be a good seal if if. you put yourself before the team. Look, you can be a great shot, you can be. strong, you can be fast, all those.

things, but no one's going to really. want you in a platoon if you put. yourself above them. And people don't. really talk about that. No one ever told. me that, but you feel it. And if you're. if you're not self-aware, you could you might slip into where. you're looking out for yourself and it's. a problem. And this happens in life, too. You know, if you're if you it. happens in business where I see a guy. that he's taking care of himself. and and.

you know, it's a smart guy and he. usually thinks he's pretty smart and. usually thinks he's a little bit smarter. than everybody else and usually thinks. that no one else is going to notice that. he's taking care of himself and. everybody sees it. Yeah. And they dig themselves a grave. They. they dig themselves to graves and they. I'm not saying they don't get away with. it a little bit. Usually they get a. couple promotions, you know, they get to. a spot, but ultimately people don't want. to work with that person and so they. burn their relationships and they don't. do as well as they should.

And which is the the kind of nice thing. is if you take care of other people, they'll take care of you. If you screw. other over other people, you're you're. gonna get screwed over. So, yeah, I. think there's a there's there's. definitely that underlying theme in the. SEAL teams. I've seen it now in. business. And it is it is. it is going to if you if you look out. for yourself all the time, it's going to.

catch up with you. I think everyone can. relate in this. If anyone's ever worked. in a business and they have colleagues, I think everyone will be able to think. about the colleague who is always. seeking credit is um is always you know. being selfish in the way that they're. showing up and then they can also think. about the colleague who's the complete. opposite of that and it's often it's. funny it was making me think as you were. speaking that leadership is in fact in. many respects it's given it's not taken. I.e. the person that's showing up for. other people but also delivering on.

their own work is often kind of elected. the leader of the group. This is you. know we talk a lot in business I think. it was Steve Jobs that said the very. very best leaders in my organization. were those that were so good at their. job and they were never thinking about. like being a leader but that's the. reason they ultimately became it. Yeah. Uh when people ask me and I got a. I got a book I wrote called leadership. strategy and tactics. It's like how to. get promoted. How do you get promoted? Don't worry about getting promoted. to. focus on the team, focus on the mission, focus on doing a good job, focus on.

supporting your teammates. If you do. those things, you're going to get. promoted. And it it takes you'll have. this, you know, the dark part of your. personality will say, "Yeah, but they're. not going to notice. They need to see me. now." And you'll raise your hand and. say, "I want credit for that." And the. minute you do that, the minute you raise. your hand and say, "Give me credit,". your credit goes down. It's an. unfortunate truth. The minute you ask. for the accolades, your accolades are. decreased because every you're looking.

out for yourself and everyone can smell. that and they don't like it. Yeah. You're saying that the miss I'm. more important than the mission in some. respects. Terrible. Terrible. Did you have people like that in the in. the services when you were you were out. there? People that were clearly selfish. in the seals? Absolutely. Y. how did you deal with that? Well, if they were my boss, then I would. make them look good,

build a good great relationship with. them. If they were my peer, I'd make. them look good, build a great. relationship with them. If they worked. for me, I'd make them look good, build a. great relationship with them. I think that as you you know some people. that have that kind of um. you know they've got some kind of. is it a defect? I think it's probably a. little bit of a defect but they they. just they just feel like they need that. recognition. They feel like they need to.

take care of themselves. And again going back to what I was. saying earlier, like what do they go. through in their life that makes them. think that they got to look out for. themselves? And it'd be kind of nice if. I could be a person that they go, "Man, this guy's. treating me really good.". And maybe I could help them transform. from someone that doesn't trust that. they're going to get the recognition. that they need to, hey, there's good. people out there and I'd like to be a. part of this team.

Were you ever successful in that. transformation? I was successful. I was also. unsuccessful. You know, some people are. some people they have that defect and. it's strong and they're going to look. out for themselves and there's very. little you can do about it and you you. know, you try try um but it's it's a. very the ego is a very very powerful. thing. I mean, you know, the eagle is so. powerful that there's countless cases of. military history where a human being got.

himself and possibly his troops or his. troops killed. because of his ego. So, if you can die. because of your ego, you can absolutely. make some pretty dramatic mistakes in. the business world because of your ego. And it happens all the time. It happens. all the time. leaving. leaving the military. I have this quote. where you said, "So, I'd say if there's.

anything that I struggle with now, it's. just that does anything else matter?". And the answer is no. The answer is no. Nothing else matters. Nothing else is. close. So, I have to deal with that. You. said that on the Tim Ferrris podcast. talking about your time um in the. services, but also more specifically the. battle of Ramadi. Ramardia. Mhm. um as being the highlight of your. life. How does one go through sort of 20. years of highintensity combat and all.

that adrenaline and all of the you know. gosh it's harder to think of many. greater senses of like purpose and. fulfillment and mission and then. real life. Yeah. So, number one, as I mentioned earlier, remember but don't dwell. And. have you seen the movie. Napoleon Dynamite? No, that's a bummer. There's a character in the movie.

Napoleon Dynamite. His name is Uncle. Rico. And Uncle Rico played football in. high school. And now Uncle Rico. uh lives in a van and sells cooking. wear. So he kind of peaked in high. school and he lives in the past. He's. always talking about state championships. and if he would have play had that extra. point and if coach would have put him. in, he's got he's living in the past. And so. while that quote right there,

no doubt that you just read from me is. accurate. I mean. there there will not be I don't think. anything in my life that will have as. much intensity as much mission focus as. much meaning as much. as much opportunity as much loss like. that is combat is is like life but. amplified and intensified. So every.

emotion that you have like you have an. emotion when you when you formulate a. new plan and when you sell a business or. buy a business you have emotions that's. like combat but it's amplified it's. intensified and it's it's a lot more so. the that quote that you read is true. nothing will compare to that it won't. but I don't want to be like Uncle Rico. living in the past talking about how. this is what it used to be like and if. Yeah, there's my big game. I don't want.

to do that. I want to, as I said. earlier, I want to remember, but I don't. want to dwell on the past. Has it ever crossed your mind to go back. in any capacity? Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Every time. like a every time a war breaks out. somewhere, you you you want to get your. get your knife out, sharpen it up, and. let's rock and roll. Of course, because. Yeah. Well, because of that quote right. there. like this is this is it. Like. that's that's it. I'm lucky that I got.

to do what I got to do, you know? Like. that's a blessing. It's a it's the it's. what I wanted to do since I was a little. kid. I got to do it. And so if you asked. me if I got the chance to do it again, would I? Yeah, I would 100%. You could though, right? You could go be. involved in some capacity in the. Seals. Yeah, there's ways there's things. that I could do to, you know, like be a. guner again and all that, but there's. also it's also not the same. So, you.

know, if I cuz I retired from the Navy. and and so I'm not in the military. anymore. I still work with the military. I still train the military, but. to go and be a gunslinger again. Um, now. you're now you're doing something. different. Now you are a mercenary. Now. it's a different situation and. the that component that you talked about. of like mission. brotherhood.

is not going to be the same for me and. and quite frankly I think that I. part of me. wants to. not sour. that memory and and all those memories. I don't want to I don't want to, you know, I don't I don't want to I. don't want to sour that memory. I I have. a beautiful beautiful memory and I don't. want to tarnish it with me chasing.

around the past. You know, when fighters, they retire. from fighting. and then they they just they they want. to go back, they do it again, and it's. just not the same. Anderson Silva was like that for me. He. was Superman and then he went back a. couple of times and I didn't want to. watch him get beat up. It was like. Yeah. I that's how that's that's a I. feel like that. I feel like that. I. don't don't think I could rematch my my. Anderson Silva the Spider Championship. run. I don't think I could rematch that.

Discipline is freedom. It's the title of. your um your book here. Discipline. equals freedom. Now, that seems like. it's untrue because when people think of. discipline, they think of rigidity and. and taking away their freedom, having to. be disciplined. Why is why does discipline equal. freedom? Because the more discipline you have in. your life, the more freedom you will end. up with.

So if you lack the discipline to. exercise. and eat healthy, you will end up being. a slave to disease. If you lack the discipline to work hard, save your money, you will end up a slave to finances. If you lack the discipline to manage.

your time correctly, you will end up. with no free time. If you have. self-discipline, if you have the. discipline to save your money and work. hard and invest your money properly, if. you have the discipline to. manage your time correctly and not waste. a bunch of time, if you have the. discipline to exercise and eat healthy, you will end up with freedom.

And it's I know it's a counterintuitive. It's contrarian, but. I've seen this over and over and over. again. If you want freedom in your life, you have to have discipline. There's going to be some kid listening. to this now. I always think about the. personas that are listening and they. are, you know, eating Doritos off their. belly. Spit them out. [Laughter].

Spit them out. Start now. Because if. you're a kid right now and you're eating. Doritos off your belly, I know they. taste good and there's some immediate. gratification, and I get that. But I'm. going to tell you, it starts right now, throw that bag of Doritos away. Get rid. of it. Go do some push-ups. Go spend $12. at the hardware store and hang up a. pull-up bar in your room and start doing. pull-ups. And if you can't do one. pull-up, hang on that bar. And you're. going to start to get a little bit.

stronger. You're going to start to get a. little bit healthier. You're going to. start to get more focused. You're going. to start to become more resilient. And. you're going to start to be able to do a. pull-up. And you're going to start to. eat healthy all the time. And you're. going to start to understand the world. better. And you're going to start to progress in. every aspect of your life. And you'll see that if you have that. kind of discipline right now,

you're going to end up with freedom. And if you don't have that kind of. discipline. and you keep eating those Doritos. and you don't work hard and you don't. exercise and you don't apply yourself, you're going to end up. you're going to end up shackled. You're going up shackled by a boss that. you don't like doing a job that you. don't like to do with.

sicknesses and diseases that you don't. want. Relying on people that you can't. even count on. alone. and you don't have to. But if you have discipline, if you have discipline, you will attain. freedom.

And it starts with just spitting the. Doritos out. Starts with spitting the. Doritos out. Yes, indeed. How do you guys manage your stress? This. month is stress awareness month and it's. a topic that I'm super passionate about. and we talk about a lot on this podcast. I personally manage my stress by. prioritizing my health and wellbeing. Going to the gym is my number one form. of therapy and I couldn't be without. those two things. As you guys know, Whoop is a sponsor of this podcast and. I'm an investor in the company as well. For those of you that don't know, Whoop.

actually created a stress monitor within. this device. Not only does this help me. to identify periods of high stress in. real time throughout the day, but it. also provides me with the tools I need. to deal with stresses as they come up. throughout the day. And it's based on. scientifically backed breathing. exercises and research that's been. developed by leading neuroscientists. It's a feature that has been. gamechanging for me and I highly. recommend. If you're someone that's. looking to manage your stress levels, then head over to join.woop.com/ceo.

where we'll give you 30 days risk-free. and zero commitment to try Whoop. Let me. know how you get on. One of the things. you do, which is I mean you you're super. famous for it, is this idea of waking up. early. Now, I'm not someone that wakes. up early. I know you no alarm clock and you're. usually up by 11:00. I I. Well, I So, no meetings before 11:00. Okay, got it. So, I I stay up quite late. Y. um. what's the best case you could give me. for changing that? And do I need to change that? Cuz I what.

I what I do is, you know, I flew into. LA. I'm jetlagged. I'm flying back in a. couple of days. I'm going to be. jetlagged when I land as well. So, what. I'm trying to do is just protect my. sleep at all costs because I've come to. learn that it's really the foundation of. my performance. So if I if I'm unslept. and I show up at work, the chance that. I'm not going to show up correctly in a. variety of ways, emotionally, creatively, whatever, is high. And that for me is the greatest. risk. So I just in the last sort of year or. two of my life, I've just said, "Okay,

prioritize sleep." Because then. everything else seems to follow. But. when I heard that you wake up sometimes. at 4:45 or 4:30, like pretty much all. the time, and you I've literally seen. you on social media upload your your. alarm clock day after day after day, I. go, "Shit, maybe I should rethink." No, I think if you're if you've got a system. that's working well for you and then I. wouldn't change anything, right? If you. feel like you're performing well, you're. physically healthy, you're getting all. the work done that you need to do, you're a naturally more of a a late.

night, late morning type person, I'd run. with it. It's. if you were telling me, "Yeah, sometimes. I get up, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I. work late, sometimes I don't. I'm not. don't work out every day. You know, sometimes I feel groggy." If you were. telling me that kind of thing, I'd say, "Okay, pick a time and start waking up. at that time every day. Doesn't have to. be 4:40. It could be 8:00, could be. 7:00, doesn't matter. Could be 11:00, but try and go to bed around the same. time and try and wake up around the same.

time. And that's going to be a great. foundation for everything that you're. doing. And I would say when you wake up. in the morning, do some kind of exercise. because I think that is very helpful in. getting your day started correctly. What are your non-negotiables in your. life in terms of habits, routines, disciplines? I wake up early and I work. out every day. That's that's kind of my. my that's that's that's those are the. minimum requirements.

in my life. Train jiu-jitsu. I I don't get to chain. train jiu-jitsu every single day. But if. I can train jiu-jitsu, I'm going to. train jiu-jitsu. I'm going to work out. every day. If I can surf, I'm going to surf, you. know. Um I I obviously have to work. every day. I I work every day doing. something, you know. I've got a bunch of. different companies. I got to write. books, podcasts. So, I I work every day. Are you ever undisiplined?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um uh chocolate chip cookies. They're a they're a a discipline. lapse for me. Uh yeah. So, yeah, I'm I'm. not a cyborg. When people look at. someone like you that's, you know, done. all the things you've done. You've been. a a seal and you've you've written all. these books and started these companies. and actually the drink I'm drinking now. is one of your your products which is. the what's that in front of you? The. Yeah, it's a it's an energy drink called. Go. Called Go. Um, delicious by the way. Oh, thank you.

I think my mouth has been connected to. my brain during this interview, so I. think it's working. Um, I understand. there's misconceptions that people have. of me because they assume it's kind of. like the halo effect. We assume because. someone's done something well, they do. all things well. Um, but there are so. many things that I think would really. liberate people and make them inspired. if they could see how deficient I was in. so many things in my life, you know, because they just assume that if you've. done one thing, well, you have a good. podcast, you have a you must be like, you know, the perfect picture of what.

are the big misconceptions generally, moving away from this idea of. imperfection, but just generally about. Joo because you've you realize you've. become a bit of a character, right? you. know, like Navy Seal that comes with an. identity package. Yeah. I think the biggest misconception. I think and it's it's it's not just me, but it's really the military in general. is the misconception of this kind of. authoritarian and even. authoritarian.

dictatorship from a leadership. perspective. And even when when we were. having this conversation, I said, "I'm. going to let I'm going to let my. subordinates plan." And you kind of had. a stunned look on your face like, "What. are you talking about? Why would you let. your subordinates plan? And so there's. an idea and a misconception that. the leader is going to stand up and bark. all the orders. So that's one. misconception. The another one is I look. like a Neanderthal and so people are. think I'm going to scream and yell at. everybody. And I I never yell at.

anybody. You know, I I my business. partner, Leif Babin, who's worked with. me, who's in my task unit at at SEAL. Team 3 and deployed to Ramati with me. and we now we've written a couple books. together. We have a business together. and he was like my direct subordinate in. Ramani and dur during a workup and. you know like never yelled at him and he. likes to point out that he gave me. plenty of reasons to yell at him but. never yelled at him cuz what what good.

is that? And by the way, if I have to. yell at somebody, what does that say? That means if I have to yell at you to. get my point across as a leader, I've. made like 47 other mistakes. My goal is I don't even have to say. anything. That's my goal as a leader. My. goal is I don't have to say a word and. you already know what to do and you make. it happen. And I look at you and give. you a thumbs up and say good job. That's. my goal. So I think the biggest. misconception is the idea of someone in. the military or myself being a.

authoritarian leader being very. close-minded. Like you know I I got. asked a question the other day about you. know if you were if you were if if China. attacked Taiwan and you were taking. troops in there what would you be. focused on? And I said, I'd be focused. on keeping an open mind because if you. have a closed mind about what the. mission is, about how it's going to. happen, about what your troops are going. to do, about what the enem is going to. do, if you have a closed mind about. those things, you're going to get caught off guard.

You have to have an open mind. You have. to be accepting of the information that. you're receiving. You have to be. accepting of the other ideas that other. people have. And if you have a closed. mind, you're going to fall apart. kind. of counterintuitive in some ways because. the reason people often think they've. been made the leader because they have. loads of the correct ideas. So I think. as as people often climb in life they go. well I've been right so much that. they've put me here as CEO so now I need. to defend my righteousness at all costs. even when I'm not you know sure cuz.

that's a weakness. Yeah. And you quoted Steve Jobs earlier. and I I think actually actually it's. from your book which was I don't hire. people so I can tell them what to do. I. hire good people so they can tell me. what to do. So yes uh in your lead in a. leadership position you should be. listening more than you should be. talking. You were talking a second ago about. shouting and aggression. It made me as. you're saying it, I was thinking, you. know, there is a stereotype that a man.

is aggressive and he shouts and all. those things. You know, there's a bit of. a stereotype there. I what I was. actually thinking is. it's never been so unclear what a man is. than it than in 2024 in the context of. how a man's men are show up. Are they. meant to be masculine or feminine or. somewhere in between or whatever? And. for many men, you are a man's man. you. know, when we think of Navy Seals, we go. men.

Do you know what I mean? So, I I was. wondering because it's it's never been. as clear, I think, what a man should be, you know, when you're raising a kid. that's a man or when you're being a man. yourself. Um, what do you think a man. should be? And I I want to give a bit more context. here. There's a lot of men struggling. right now. There's a lot of men if you know I talk. about it a lot that if you look at the. stats around suicidality in the UK the. thing that's most likely to kill someone. between the age of like 18 and 40 is. themselves. for a man you know there's a so men are.

clearly struggling in some capacity with. purpose or or meaning or something. So, I almost feel like, you know, a lot of. these sort of toxic influences of what a. man should be have now emerged to offer. answers, but I doubt those toxic. influences. And I say there's got to be. another role model, another sort of. blueprint for what it is to show up as a. man. Well, I was going to give you a real I. guess it would have been a real cheap. answer of uh I think it's Marcus. Aurelius's stop discussing what it is to. be a man and be one. I was going to I.

was going to walk out of here with that. one and be like, pretty good question. avoidance there. Um, which but there's. some merit to that, right? Like and and. I was almost thinking like do do we. really not know do we really not know. what it is to be a good man? And and I. would go so far as to say to be a good. human being, right? Because when a few. years ago there was these there was. these discussions going around about. toxic masculinity, right? And you take.

these traditional masculine traits and. people were saying this is toxic. masculinity and they're bad and I wrote. a couple articles about it. If you take any trait of a human being. and you take it to an extreme, masculine. or feminine or otherwise, you take it to. an extreme, it's it's going to be a. problem. It doesn't matter what it is. So, if you take even a really positive. trait like. generosity, if you're a a super generous.

person, that's wonderful. Is it possible. to be too generous? Well, yes, it is. Now, you're getting taken advantage of. and now you end up in an abusive. relationship. Like, there's all kinds of. problems that can happen. So, when we. talk about masculine traits and what's a. man, well, what are some of the. traditional masculine traits? Um, to be. competitive. Now, is it bad to be hyper competitive. where you. screw people over and you hurt your.

health because you want to win in this. particular category? Is that bad? Yes, it is. Does that mean we have people. that are not competitive at all and they. don't care if they win or lose? No, that's not good either. So, that's. that's one trait. What's another good. masc aggression? Aggression is a masculine trait. Is it. good if I'm walking into a restaurant. pushing the hostess out of my way? Of. course. That's terrible. That's. terrible. Is it good if you and I are.

working together and I say, "Hey, shut. up and do what I said." Is that good? No, it's not good. So, can you take aggression too far? Yes, you absolutely can. Can you get to. a point where you're not even asserting. yourself at all and you're getting W? Yes, you can. Is that good? No, that's. not good either. So, there's a bunch of traits that we. could run through that are considered. traditional masculine traits. And if you. take any of those traits and you take. them to an extreme, they're going to be. bad. Stoicism, right? Being stoic, being. unemotional. Is it is it good to have no.

emotions whatsoever? No. That's called a. sociopath, right? Is that good? No. Is. it good, like I was talking about. earlier, to let your emotions run your. life and make your decisions based on. your emotions? No. That's not good. either. What do we want to be as a as a. human, as a man? Want to be balanced. Want to be a want to be balanced. You. don't want to be extreme in any. direction. Even when you asked me like, "Oh, Jo, what are you undisiplined on?".

I told you chocolate chip cookies. I. could have also said, "Uh, yeah, sometimes I like to. eat uh mint chocolate chip milkshakes. Sometimes I get lazy to work out. I'm. like, you know what? I freaking warmed. up and this sucks and I'm I'm leaving.". Uh, sometimes I'm supposed to I was. going to write something and now I. didn't write anything. I was supposed to. write a thousand words today. I didn't. write any. And guess what? I didn't. write any tomorrow. I I'm a slacker. So. if I was so disciplined that, you know, my wife was like, "Hey, I'd like to go. out for dinner." I was like, "No, I. still got to write my thousand words.".

Is that good? No, it's not good. So any. any characteristic, if we take it to. extreme, it's going to be a problem. And. so we as people should be balanced. And. I think. what we need to be attuned to is it's. it's much easier to be extreme. It's. it's much easier to be extreme. It's. it's it's much easier to say, "Oh, no emotions. Cool." And turn them off. That's easier than or or total emotion.

mayhem. That's easier. It's harder to. find balance. It's harder to find. balance in business. It's harder to find. balance in life. It's hard to find. balance. And what we have to do is we. have to be attuned to the the feedback. that we're getting. We have to be attuned to the feedback. that we're getting. So if we're talking. to our wife and she says you're not. going to be home for dinner again. tonight for the ninth night in a row. that you're going to stay late at work, okay, you need to be paying attention.

enough to say, "Oh yeah, guess what? I'm. a little too focused on work right now.". And then the other end of that spectrum. is my boss says, "Hey, Jo, wait. You're. leaving early again? Well, you know, it's wrestling season. My my daughter's. got a wrestling match, so I'm I'm going. to leave." O, okay. I need to be attuned. enough to say, "Yeah, if I focus 100% on. my job, I'm going to lose my family. If. I focus 100% on my family, I'm going to. lose my job." We as humans are supposed. to be balanced. And by the way, there's. going to be some things that we don't.

control. Somebody asked me the other. day, "What did I learn. about myself. from the highs and lows of my life? The. highest point of my life and the lowest. point of my life. What did I learn about. myself?". And I said, I learned that I don't let. the highs and the lows affect me too. much. because we're going to have wins, we're. going to have losses. We're going to have successes, we're.

going to have failures, we're going to. have good nights, we're going to have. bad nights, we're going to have good. relationships, we're going to have bad. relationships, we're gonna have good. ideas and bad ideas. We're going to make. money, we're going to lose money. All. these things are going to happen. And if you oscillate emotionally. up and down drastically, it's going to. be problematic. So finding a good, stable, centered way. to be. and look at the world and take.

everything that you see with a little. bit of a grain of salt and don't get. swayed. too drastically. in one direction or the. other, you're going to be okay. And if I was to try and sum up some of. this idea about being a man or being a. good human, it's like those books. I. wrote a book called Extreme Ownership.

That number one, take responsibility for. what you're doing. Take take ownership. of your world. Take ownership of your. life. There's number one. Number two, the second book, Dichotomy of. Leadership. Be balanced. Be balanced. Don't be extreme. Extreme. Look, do you. have to sometimes get out there in the. in the fringes a little bit? Occasionally, you probably had some. business situations where you're like, "All right, I got to let go half of my. staff right now. That's an extreme move, but that's how we're going to start." Do. you have to do that sometimes? Yes, you. do. But don't let that be where you.

live. Live in the center. Live in a. stable area. And then finally, discipline equals freedom. Couple of. words you use throughout this. conversation make me want to add some. things to that list of what it takes to. be a maybe not a good man but at least a. happy and fulfilled man. One of the. words you used is brotherhood. And I was. thinking about all the things you got. from your time in the seals and it's. almost a bit of like a microcosm of what. I think a lot of men are looking for. You know that sense of purpose that. brotherhood and they find it these days. in like video games and stuff right.

which I video games I've got no, you. know, I cost no judgment on people that. play video games. I've played video. games my whole life, but there's a it. seems like there's a reason we're. getting like increasingly addicted to. these video games cuz they're giving us. something that we're searching for in. real life and not getting. You use the. words brotherhood, purpose. These are. things that the SEALs clearly have in. huge huge amounts. Is there anything. else that you'd add to that list of what. it takes to feel fulfilled? Yeah, jiu-jitsu.

It's it almost says become a joke. amongst. me, my friends, people that listen to me. is you got some kind of a problem in the. world. You got some kind of problem in. your life, go train jiu-jitsu. There's a. reason why I say that. Cuz the things. that you just mentioned, discipline. Guess what you need to go train. jiu-jitsu when you're tired and you. don't feel like it? Discipline. Guess. how you feel when you're done? You feel. awesome. You get a bunch of dopamine. Guess who you're there with? A bunch of. dudes that you can relate to. And guess. what you're going to do together? You're. going to struggle. You're going to go.

through some some. hardship together. You're going to. sweat. You're going to choke. You're. going to get your arm broken. Like these. things are going to happen. Not going to. get your arm broken, but you may. But. you're going to you're going to be with. a little brotherhood. And by the way, women train jiu-jitsu, too. My daughters. all train jiu-jitsu. It's all good. It's. all good. So yeah, jiu-jitsu is one way. Now look, could you go to the rock.

climbing gym? Yes, you could. Could you. go to the CrossFit gym? Yes, you could. Could you go to the to the Yeah, the. soccer field, football field, whatever. Yeah, you can do that stuff. So yeah, go. do that stuff. Go do that stuff. That's. shared suffering together with a group. on a regular basis, whether you want to. or not. That's some that's those are all. little components of being in the. military or being in the SEAL teams. That's what it is. That's what you're. doing. What does what does a SEAL platoon do?

They train to get ready for go to war. How do they do that? They go to the. desert. They carry their guns. They run. through little choreographed moves. They. get hot. They carry weight. It's. suffering. It's just shared suffering. and they're working together and they're. learning skills. That's what you're. doing in a jiu-jitsu gym. That's what. you're doing on the soccer field. So, go. out and do those things with other human. beings and it's going to make it's going. to make things better for sure. It made. me think of business as well. Business should be that way. If you if. you're in an organization,

you're doing the exact same thing, right? We've got a problem. We need to. solve it. We've got to allocate. resources. We got to come in late. tonight. We got to make this thing. happen. We got an emergency. Like, that's what a business is, too. That's. the way it should be. It should be. We're working together to solve. problems. And when we're successful, we. get rewarded for that. So, yes, this is. called human interaction. I'm sorry that it looks like war is the. best way to do it. It's not. I would. much rather people start a business and.

create a product and and and create. jobs. I would much rather people do. that. And you can find that same kind of. camaraderie. in business. In fact, it's interesting. You know, I I have a consulting business. and so we work with companies and. companies that went through the 2008. economic downfall, those they're so. bonded cuz they went through this. traumatic experience together. Companies. that that kind of did well out of the. gate, they're not people are leaving and.

people are but companies that went. through some trauma together, they stick. together. So yeah, if you frame things. right in your life, if you frame things, if you frame a business challenge as an. opportunity to build a stronger team, if you if you frame a personal challenge. as an opportunity to overcome and. improve yourself, these things that seem so horrible are.

actually. very positive components. of your. existence and they're going to make you. better. As you said that, I thought, damn, I. should take all of my teams. We should. go do like a survival week. We have uh we we run a program like that. at Eson Front where we teach we teach. people like some basic tactics and we. have these high-speed laser tag guns and. we send them out on missions and there's. explosions and there's gunfire and. there's role players that are screaming. and yelling and it's it's mayhem. And.

those teams that go through that, they. bond. They also learn how to make. decisions under pressure. They also. learn how to detach. They also learn the. fundamental principles of combat. leadership that you can apply not just. to the battlefield, but you can apply to. business and you can apply to your life. as well. So yes, is that helpful? It. absolutely is. Struggle sucks. Depends on how you frame it, right? Depends on how you frame it.

Cuz I'm thinking about you stood at the. beach at the, you know, and they say, "Walk out, Jo. Link arms and walk out.". You describe that as sucking. Yep. But what you're also saying is there's. huge value in. things that suck. On the the other side. of something that sucks is something. worth cherishing. I would say not just huge value, but the. value. It's the value. You want to know if you're a you were. talking about young men that might not.

have any direction right now. Go do. something that's hard. Go try and accomplish something that's. hard. You may win. You may lose. You may. succeed. You may fail. I'll tell you. what, you'll be better. If you avoid those things that are hard, if you don't accept that challenge, if. you don't step up and step into that. cold water and you sit on your couch and. eat Doritos, I I I can tell you this is not a good.

move. This is not a good move. Don't do that. Don't do that. Just get. up, move towards that challenge. Whatever that challenge is, move towards. that challenge and go attack it. And you may be successful and you may. not be successful, but you will be. better. And the next challenge you're going to. be more prepared for. And the next challenge after that you're. going to be even more prepared for. And you're going to fail. And you're.

going to fail. And you're going to fail. And you're going to fail. And then. you're going to win. And that's life. Life without those challenges. It's existence. Don't just exist. Go live.

You used the word balance a second ago. and um from reading through your story. it appears that when you were in the. seals you didn't have a whole lot of. work life balance in whatever way people. will define work life balance and. talking specifically here about your. relationships your family your wife. I'm right in saying that you were out of. balance at through that season of life. in terms of you know yes I was out of. balance. I was out of balance.

I was out of balance, but. the ship was still moving in the right. direction. So, what does that mean? That means that. my wife. picked up the slack. That's what she did. So, I was out of balance. She recognized. it. She recognized that I had a job.

and that that job was important. She. recognized that. I was going to war. I was taking I was. taking guys to war. my decisions. could mean the lives of these guys, the. deaths of these guys. My wife understood. that. My wife understood that what I needed to. focus on at that time was making sure. that my guys and me were prepared for.

war. That has to be the focus. That has to be. the focus. To not focus on that means I might not. be coming home. Means some of those guys. not might not be coming home. She understood that. She knew that. She stepped up. She I was out of. balance. She was in balance. She pulled the. family unit into balance.

And And. I was I treated my wife like a princess. My I mean I never I never I mean I gave. my wife everything except for time. I. could not always give her the time that. she deserved. She never complained about it one time. That's legit.

She knew. She knew that and she understood it. It's a team. First law of combat leadership is cover. and move. We work together as a team. While I was doing my job, while I was.

serving the country, she covered for me. where I couldn't deliver on the home. front. With three kids and then four kids, she. covered the finances, the water heater. that's broken, the car tire that needs. changing. She did all that stuff. I can see the emotion in your face when. you say that.

Where does that come from? Where is that emotion? That's appreciation. It's appreciation. It's like. I'm gone and she's there. She doesn't. know what's going to happen to me. Doesn't know if I'm coming home. She got three freaking kids running. around.

Like, and this is my wife. Guess what? There's hundreds of thousands of. military wives that did the same thing. And spouses as well, cuz there's there's. guys that are married to females that go. on deployment as well, that hold the line and and do the job on. the home front. And you know, they they don't they don't. get the appreciation, the outward. appreciation, the recognition that the.

people that are in the military get, but. they deserve it. Do you think you could ever express the. gratitude you have for for her in words? Do you think do you think it's possible. for her to know how much you appreciate. her for holding the line and for. covering you? Do I think I could express it. in words? Probably not. Does she know?

Yes, she does. Jocker, we have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next guest, not. knowing who they're leaving it for. Mhm. They leave it in this book. Question that's been left for you. If you could bring someone back who's no. longer with us and have a conversation. with them, who would it be and what. would that conversation entail?

Well, I'd bring back Mark Lee, Mikey Monsour, and Ryan Job. And I tell him, "Thank you.

Thank you. What would you be thanking them for? Everything. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for I mean the list is quite.

ex extensive but thank you for putting. your life on the line to make the world. a better place. That's um I think a a. level of gratitude and appreciation that. we can't really express um in words to. people like you that put your lives on. the line and sometimes don't come back. from war and put your families through. it things that the average person. frankly wouldn't be willing to do um for. the sake of an important cause. Thank. you for that. Thank you on behalf of all.

of the people that will never be able to. say it to you. Thank you for what you're. doing in this chapter of your life. because you are maybe whether you know. it or not, you are saving, improving, and changing lives with everything you. do with your incredible podcast, with. all the books you've written. You've. written this, you know, you're writing. children's books as well now to try and. help shift the mindset of people at the. very while they're still seeds and. they're formative. And I think that's. also going to change improve lives. and. thank you for all the inspiration you've. given me over the years because you'll. never get to see all of the people who.

hear a line that you say, the way that. you say it, the stories that you tell. Um, and for some of those people, it's. just the subtle nud nudge that they need. to take that first step to spit the. Dorito out and to change their lives. You know, when I when I think about my. friendship circle and I told told some. of my friends that I was speaking to you. today, those are young men and women. that can all pinpoint the moment where. they encountered you and they can. pinpoint how it moved their life forward. in some way. You'll never meet these. millions and millions of people, but I.

just want you to know for sure that. they're there and they're watching now. and they've been watching and they'll. continue to watch. So, Joo, thank you. It's been an honor. It was an honor to. serve and thanks for having me on here. Appreciate it. Heat. Heat. [Music].