Jimmy Carr: Nothing You Could Buy Will Matter In 5 Years

I've got one [ __ ] life and this is. it. It was not preordained that I was going. to be a successful comedian touring the. world and being on TV. I just I knew. what I wanted to do and then I pursued. it. I was so broken and I was so. stripped of serotonin. It went from. being on the cover of the paper to. going, you know, this is morally wrong. I was having panic attacks. It's [ __ ]. terrifying because you think, is this my. forever now? And when you're depressed, it's the appetite for life is just gone. What's the thing that you're good at,

that you could get better at, that you. could be better than you last year? That's the key thing cuz take that. thing, if you can find out what that is. for you, and then apply some hard work. and time, that's your luck. Be happy. I think it's a it's a powerful thing to. aspire to. You know, when you're on a. plane and it's going down and the oxygen. masks come, you have to grab your mask. first or you're no good for anyone else. You being happy makes the people around. you happier, better for your friends, better for your family, better for the.

world. When you clicked on this video, I don't know what you were expecting. When they told me Jimmy Carr was going. to be on the Diary of a CEO, I don't. know what I was expecting. But what I got and what I learned and. the person that showed up is not the. Jimmy Carr that I know from TV. It's not. the Jimmy Carr that I've watched on TV. for many, many decades. The Jimmy Carr.

that came here today is quite honestly. a genius, a philosophical thinker, an expert on the topic of happiness, someone that writes in his brand new. book about finding and pursuing your. purpose. Jimmy Carr has typically been known for. his very comedic one-liners. What he shares today, it's deep. It's. profound. And when you find out that he was a.

Cambridge graduate, it kind of makes sense. Because Jimmy is a very very smart man. Not just book smarts, he's life smart. This podcast today is one of my favorite. of all time because it has everything. Not just those profound truths that I. know I know will change your life, but. also a very remarkable, compelling, vulnerable, personal story. One that starts with his mom and his. dad. One that starts with dyslexia and. feeling rejected at a very young age.

One that journeys through being. canceled, controversy, panic attacks, depression, and ultimately finding himself. He says it himself. This is the Jimmy Carr you don't know. But I'll tell you this. This is the Jimmy Carr you should. So, without further ado, I'm Steven. Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a. CEO. I hope nobody's listening. But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

It's so funny because every time I do. this podcast, I always try and think of. a new place to start. But having read. your story and having read the stories. of my guests before they arrive, I. always end up starting in the same. place. So, I was just sat there trying. to think of a new way to to come into. it. But, I'm going to go for it. So, your. childhood, Jimmy. Very very pivotal and. I was reading throughout your childhood. about these really really pivotal. moments. Pivotal moments of changing.

school and family and mom and dad. Take. me to the the most important context. from your childhood. I suppose, I mean, listen, it's it's. when you remember stuff. We're all um. unreliable narrators when we look back. on our lives. And I think the gift of. lockdown was that. uh memory and speed are inversely. proportional. That when you slow down in. life, you remember more. You kind of And. And it's a great time for kind of. recalibration and thinking, "Well, what. happened?" So, the things that I. recently became a father, so you're.

thinking about childhood again in kind. of this new way and thinking, "Well, what are the What are the things you. would want for your child? What would. you want to give them?" And also, what. were those key moments where you get to. decide who you are? And I think that the. key bits in my childhood were the. moments where you become aware you are a. story you tell yourself. So, I moved schools when I was 16, and I. was kind of not a tearaway, but I was in. trouble and I was messing around and I. was with a. a fairly rough crew. Uh and I switched.

schools and told a different story. Not. to be Machiavellian, you just kind of. arrived at the new school and went, "Well, I guess. I guess maybe no one no one knows me. here. I could just be whoever I want to. be." And you become aware of how And not. consciously, but I even at that early. age aware that you're not a noun, you're. a verb. You're a doing thing. And you. can do things differently and you can do. better. And then so, that that lesson obviously that you then. forget that. And you don't make good on that again. for a while. So, I was kind of in my.

mid-20s when the next big kind of sea. change of going, "Right, I'm going to. leave a a job working for someone and go. on an adventure." And it was I mean, for. me that kind of mid-20s thing was It's. not childhood, but it feels like even at. 25, I was. um. in an archetypical way, still a child. Because I was living my life for someone. else. I hadn't really taken the reins. yet. I hadn't really made a decision. until I was in my mid-20s. So, it felt. like to me I was like a big kid when I. was 25, and then suddenly at 26, yo ho.

ho, a pirate's life for me. I just I. [ __ ] off and joined the circus and. became a comedian and started leading my. own life. In a way, I think I mean, part. of the reason for the book is I think a. lot of people aspire to that. A lot of. people want to. want to find their purpose. and they want to they want to pursue it. and you know. it's very sad a lot of people don't get. to do either. And when you change school at 16 years. old and you talk about you were able to. kind of shed this identity that that.

school and environment and the teachers. that had given you. Well, I think you've got baggage haven't. you when you're even when you're 16 you. got baggage you go into sixth form and. you're all you're the terror white kid. you're going to do like that you're. going to do. you know this well in your exams. It's. it's a. um your past indicates where your future. is going to go and it doesn't have to be. that way at some stage you just have to. you you cut those apron strings or you. cut with the past and go no I could be. academic. You know I'm I'm a I'm very. dyslexic and I didn't really learn to.

read and write till I was about maybe 10. or 11 with any level of proficiency and. then I managed to get myself to. Cambridge and part of that is like a. force of will you just go right I'm. going to I'll do that. I'll figure out. how to do it. I'll figure out what the. code is. And often I think it's that. thing of like the thing that comics do. incredibly well I talk about like the. superpowers of comedians what comedians. do brilliantly is they're great at. pattern recognition and that strikes me. as like the most important thing in life. for humans is pattern recognition well. that that kind of works like that. How.

do you write an A grade essay? It's not. about knowing about history it's about. knowing the structure of what that essay. looks like and so you kind of lift the. structure and go right well I'll just. I'll I'll write to that formula. Mhm. Cracking the code on stuff and I think. at every level you're trying to crack. new codes you're trying to get better at. stuff. And and do you think if you go back to. that that changing school scenario again. you were given this identity and that. identity came with a set of like. implicit instructions on who you were. which we then all.

for some reason subconsciously believe. and then obey and then we start. fulfilling. 100% I mean I think the the the things. that dictate our lives are our beliefs. Your your life is as good as your you. believe it's going to be. I think I'm a. real advocate that disposition is more. important than position. And 95% of life. is how you look at it, and 5% is what. happens to you. So, the idea that you go. what what are you going to believe? Well, most of our beliefs that the. beliefs that really affect us are the. presuppositions that we make. We don't.

even think about them. We just think. it's oh, I'm not the kind of person that. does that. I'm not the kind of person cuz I'm not. from that background, or I'm not I'm not. from showbiz. I don't know anyone in. showbiz, so I'm never going to be in. showbiz. And then you allow yourself at some. stage, you go, well, [ __ ] that. I'm. going to allow myself to dream or to to. try and be more than. But you know, the. premise of the book kind of is there's. nothing special about me. It was not preordained that I was going. to be a successful comedian touring the. world and being on TV. That was not like. a lock. I don't have a.

irrefutable talent. I just I knew what I. wanted to do, and. you know, what do you want being the key. question in life, and then I pursued it. kind of doggedly because I I found my. purpose. And that strikes me as. something that's. achievable, not you know, I'm not. suggesting everyone goes out and becomes. a comedian, but I want better lives for. everyone. I read um. I read that you said.

you spent a lot of time cheering your. mother up. Yeah, I think most comics, I mean, the. cliché is the comedian is depressed, right? Mhm. That's the go to and it's such a. pleasing irony. Why wouldn't it be? Because you go out there they you know, he's makes us laugh, but he's really. down. You know, the old. Yeah. You know, the old story There's an old. joke about a. guy's like super depressed, like he's. going to kill himself. He's really down, and he goes to see a psychiatrist, and. the psychiatrist says, well, you need to.

you know, you need to cheer up. Grimaldi. is in town. The great clown Grimaldi is. in town. He's the greatest clown the. world has ever seen. He's I saw him last. week. He's hilarious. You won't even be. able to breathe cuz you'll be laughing. so much and you'll forget your worries. and you'll just be happy again. And the guy goes, "But I am Grimaldi.". The great old joke about, you know, it's. like, okay, tears of a clown thing. I. think it's parents. I think my mother. was. If you talk to comedians, you'll talk to.

a lot of comedians on this podcast, right? So, I think the question to ask is which. parent was sick? It It tends to be, you. know, one of them and it tends to be. either physical or mental. With my My. mother was depressed. You don't know. that when you're a kid. You just You. know something isn't right. You know you. have to The atmosphere has to be. changed. So, you become very good at. at changing people's states. And then that becomes your job. You lean. into that. That becomes a very important. thing that you place a lot of value on. Now, I hadn't put that together till I. was in my mid-20s.

But the idea of going being able to. change people's states is a it's a. it's an interesting skill set. I mean, I. like to think of myself as a drug. dealer. But I'll never be taken by the feds. because the drugs are already on you. You've got the the endorphins there. You've got the good [ __ ] in there and. it's about letting that out in a very um. sort of organic, natural high of. laughter. And I'm a huge advocate of live comedy. because people laugh so much more.

when they're in a crowd. It's a It's a. social noise. It's very tribal. It's the. the idea of like, we all belong to this. thing. If you want you watch your. favorite show on on the phone on the bus. and you'll smile and it won't do you any. good. physiologically. But if you see it in a. crowd of 30 people with all your friends. around, it's like. laugh. You cry laughing. I guess that's why they put canned. laughter on TV. I think to encourage, yeah, to. encourage. I mean, the canned laughter. thing is slightly a myth, but yeah, they. they. they do, you know, and it does encourage.

you to kind of do a little bit, but it's. um it's really about that thing of it. being a tribal thing where you we sort. of want to belong and laugh with. something. And I kind of feel that as a. comedian you're part of a very long. tradition. There's always been comics, you know, there was comedians and then. there's variety acts and then there's. court jesters and then there's trickster. gods. Uh you know, Anansi and the Monkey King. and all these kind of all these things. from our our sort of deep-rooted. culture. There's always someone. saying the other.

S- s- slightly outside looking in. Um I. think being an immigrant I think it's an. important thing with that. I mean, I. don't read as an immigrant in any way, shape, or form. Just your average white guy, but and I. sound like I was privately educated, but. it's interesting in the book of like. people's perception of you. You have to. be aware who you are. and you have to be aware how you're. perceived. They're both important. And you I think acceptance of that is. like a it's like that thing of what's. the first step on the journey to finding. your purpose. It's like well, you have.

to know who you are. Have to start with. like there's an honesty to comedy of. going right, this is what I've got. G- Going back to the that the first. person you asked would have. I guess assigned to chair up which was. your mother. What was. Did you know at the time she was. depressed? No, I just thought it was normal. I d- I. mean, genuinely like. n- she was a lot of fun and she was very. charismatic and people liked her. I. still could see that and then you could. see people are complex and nuanced and. you could see that she was you know, she. didn't get out of her dressing gown most.

days. She didn't. she wasn't engaged in in a in a way that. was normal. She didn't take care of. herself. Um and. it's a great sadness, you know, you kind. of look back and you feel a bit guilty. that maybe you could have done more or I. think even the debate now, the culture. that we that we have at the moment where. people are talking about mental health. and they're talking about getting help. and what to do and talking therapies. It feels like there's a whole world. that's open now that maybe things might. have been different if if it had been. you know, 20 years later.

But it felt like she was quite isolated. and and depressed. One of the things you you talk about. linking to that is the the root cause of. a lot of things, you know, mental. elements, depression, um addiction, is a lack of a lack of. purpose. And it's a you know, like. hazarding a guess at what the the causes. would be. And with depression, um. it somewhat bizarrely seems to be quite. generational at times. Did you ever. figure out or hazard a guess in your. later life what caused her to feel the. way she did?

I make a lot of cases in the book for. conflated words. Like, you know, words. that you sort of think they mean the. same thing, but they don't. There's a. that's sort of a theme in the book. I've. sort of going, well, I think happiness. and pleasure are different and I think. um. envy and jealousy are different and I. think. uh depression and sadness are very. different. I think some of it was. circumstantial, which which is sadness. And the you know, sadness is better. If. you could choose between sadness and. depression, go with sadness because it's.

circumstantial. It's about. uh it's about nurture. It's about what's. going on in your world, who you're with, what's going what's happening, that's. getting you down. Okay? With depression, it's a much more serious thing. There'll. be people listening to this or watching. this that. suffer with depression. It's a serotonin. imbalance in the head. It's a proper. medical element and we'd never think of. it like that. We never think of it like. that, right? You've never told anyone. with. uh cancer, "Snap out of it. Come on. Come on. Let's snap out of it. Let's go. and get a drink. Come on, cancer. Come.

on.". But someone depressed, you've. Mhm, 100%. 100%. People have done that. People Come. on, you're depressed. Come on, we're. going to get a drink. We're going uh you. got nothing to be depressed about. I'll. tell you what's great. You know, uh you. do that and and you go, "It's so crazy. when you stop and think about suicide as. a symptom of depression, not as a the. that's a stand-alone. It's a symptom. There's an epidemic of it going on. And. people aren't taking it seriously. It's. It's uh It's I I think comedy is a very. valuable tool as well because it lends.

perspective. Mhm. And really, what is suicide? It's a It's. a. It's a. It's a permanent solution to a temporary. problem. Mhm. It's so sad. You know, when you hear. about young people, that's it's just. It's a heartbreaker. Mhm. And I think often that thing of like. purpose is the is the cure. Mhm. Do you think it. Yeah, so what I don't know why I'm. asking this question cuz these are these. are, you know, these are very complex. questions specifically around mental. health, but I I I think it All of these.

questions come from my own place of like. deep deep curiosity. Um as it relates to. to mental health, the apparent increase. in it in our society, whether that's. because more people are, you know, labeling it or because they're more. people are actually going through those. um those elements. think there's I think there is a um. you know, if we take it over, you know, not a huge, not geological time, but. over like a 30-year time plan, uh what's. happened the last 30 years? Well, it's. the rise of the individual.

Right? We've all become uh the. individual's become more powerful and. the group or the tribe has become less. powerful. And that is not only a force. for good. There's a negative to that as well. So, people feel that families are. smaller, um groups are smaller. People. feel like they go their own way. So, we've never been more connected and felt. more alienated. It's you you you know, we're set up to to to fail almost. There's a generation of people that feel. like they're incredibly connected and. they have a huge number of friends. online,

but they have no one to talk to. And that's a It's a It's a It's a. difficult thing. And they don't feel. maybe part of a group. They always feel. a little bit other. So, that's you know, if you There's a great book called. Selfie and a great book called Tribe. I. remember sort of reading them back to. back and thinking, "Yeah, there's. something's going on here." And why do. why does everyone want to go to. Glastonbury? Why does everyone want to go to a music. festival? It's not necessarily cuz they you know, I love that song. See that song anyway, play that song on your headphones. But. they want to feel part of something and. they want to be in a crowd with other.

people and feel a sense of belonging. There's there's something a little bit. Our society's unbelievably great. And I love that kind of Steven Pinker. enlightenment now thing about, right, it's the best it's ever been. There's. [ __ ] terrible things happening, but. it's the best it's ever been. I love. that positive attitude. But there are. serious issues. Especially, I mean, it seems especially. for young people, it seems like it's. um. I mean, part of the reason to write the. book is I have a son, but also the.

people that come and see my shows and. the people that go, well, I don't I. don't know what to do. And yet. you know, that and they come out for a. laugh or whatever and you go, well, I'm. not I'm the jester here. I don't have. any answers, but this is what worked for. me. So, sharing that felt like a um a. really a sort of privilege to be able to. do that. And you think about your life. and your childhood and the people that. you met along the way that made huge. differences with seemingly small. interventions.

The world seems to be hurtling more and. more in the direction of individualism, loneliness. I mean, the stats would back. that up that we're getting more and more. lonely as we're moving online in in you. know, Facebook announced they're. changing their name to meta last week. and they're. you know, building the the metaverse. which we're all going to live in and. It's interesting how empathetic and. beautiful people are one-on-one. You know, if you you've ever met someone. one-on-one that that cancel culture is. an interesting thing to talk about, right? Cuz I get canceled at some stage. in the next 2 years. It just happens. Let's just accept that.

for a joke I've done online. It's. already out there. It's pointless me. worrying about it. But that thing of like one-on-one with. people, people are incredibly empathetic. and kind. And there's a thing that we're. doing now where we're not on a Zoom. call, we're across the table for each. other looking into each other's eyes. having a conversation. There's an. intimacy to that. There's like a There's. like a Okay, we're we're going to have a. conversation here, and we're going to. see each other's points of view, and. we're going to talk about it. And it's a. it it's. There's something about this that goes. back. 10,000 years. Like people have always.

done this. The online thing, you What. What are we missing from that? Without. that immediacy. And I think that the. crisis in. lockdown, where people were literally. locked down, shut away, it's just it's. not good for us. How do we change it? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think. there's. I don't know is is the answer. I mean, I. think there's. The really simple [ __ ] is is not getting. done. For me, it cuz it feels like this big. boat that's going in one direction, and. it's speeding up. And what I mean by.

that is we're actually building our. lives into the digital space, which is. making us more socially connected. online, but more disconnected in the. real world. interesting thing going on. I mean, I. It's interesting and terrible. Um where. people are I sort of quote a lot in the. book. I use a lot of quotes, because I. sort of think quotes are the truth. Like. the It's everything else has been burnt. away. There's nothing left but these six. or seven words that just sum something. up. And you go, "That's just [ __ ]. That stuck around for 50 years for a. reason. That's just [ __ ] true.".

So, the I think it's Eleanor Roosevelt. that said, you know, "Comparison is the. thief of joy.". Which I love. Because we're comparing our lives to. everyone else, right? We're the classic. you know, a millennial kind of phrase of like, "You're comparing. your insides to someone else's. outsides." But even there's another. thing layered on top of that now, where. I don't know you online. But you have an online profile. And you. might well be jealous of yourself. online. Because you look at your pictures of. yourself online, and you're always. smiling. And you're always with.

beautiful people, and drinking a. cocktail on a beach, beautiful car, beautiful thing. That thing of like, you. can't you're disconnecting with how you. feel and how you put you choose to. express yourself digitally. Um so that there's it's a it's an odd. thing that's that's happening. I think. like feeling connected to other people. and laughing with other people. I think. it's. Here's how we fix it, right? It's nature. and nurture. Right? So oldest debate in the world, nature nurture, what's important? Well,

who [ __ ] cares? Nature's the cards we. were dealt, right? That's what we got. We got this. I got this. You got that. Okay, well all right, you win. So. So but that thing of going the nature. nurture thing is right, you've got the. nature, that's fine, that's the cards. How you going to play it is the nurture. And I think there's a perception that. nurture is finished at. 15, 18, 20, 21? At what stage do you. think you're done? I'm done, off to the. world now, going to kill it. Like it's a. nonsense.

Nurture is like an ongoing process of. like and thinking about it, giving it. even 5 minutes thought of going, "Right, who do I like and why do I like them?". Well, I like I like who I am with. people. That's why I like them. So when I'm with my child, I like who I. am when I'm a dad. I like playing that. role. I like being that part. I like I. like who I am when I'm with my friend. Johnny and we're chatting about music. I. like who I am when I'm with, you know, my my my friend Matt and we're chatting. about aliens or whatever, you know, those things and spending finding more.

time with those people and laughing and. connecting with the people that make you. happy. Mhm. That seems to be the the the you know, the smart thing. I mean that you know, I. suppose there's simple [ __ ] like, you. know, putting your phone away for a day. You. ever done that? We did it on our last. holiday. My girlfriend. had a holiday for 2 years. Yeah, but. that thing of like we put our phones in. the we check the phone in the morning to. see no one interesting's died. All. right, you don't want to miss a biggie. You know, what I mean, you don't want to. miss [ __ ] Diana, too, whatever the. [ __ ] So you put the phone in the safe.

in the morning. Mhm. and then you have your day, and then you. check it in the evening. You give. yourself the the the rush of I've got so. many emails. Oh my god. And and then it's it's interesting. though of that that feeling of. decompressing, and most people don't. don't have that. Not that, you know, it's not I'm not saying that digital. world is, you know, a terrible thing. And it's. clearly the way we're going, so we have. to learn to to live with that. We talked there about one half of your. parental equation. Mhm. Tell me about the other half.

Mhm. Well, you know, I've just become a. father. And I'm acutely aware. that it doesn't always work out. I. haven't seen my father in 20 years, I. guess. Um it's a long time. Um and I I don't have a relationship. with him, and. listen, there's there's three stories, mine and yours and then the truth. Um. but that's the fact of the matter is I. don't have any relationship with my. father. So, uh that makes me um it's. another lesson in life though, isn't it? Should go, right, if you don't have a.

father, don't be a dummy about it. Don't not. have a father. Just find a different. one. Find that archetype is so important to. our development. Having a mother is, you. know, when my mother died, I didn't go, well, I guess, you know, the older female nurturing. um. archetype, I just I guess I'll live. without that. You go you find other. people that are going Maybe not one. other person, but you find a you put. your team together. You put your nurture. together, and you you go, well, I need. to find those people. You need to find I.

mean, I suppose I'm lucky in the the job. that I do that you have certain, you. know, people are further down the road. So, if you look to them as kind of. mentors, or you look to them as as uh as. people that you want to impress, and you. want to you you know, you're aware of. that what you need. And and now you've had a son. Yeah. That must be a. You know, there was two things you. talked about that were really really. pivotal in recent times. One of them was. the pandemic, and And one was obviously. the birth of your of your own son. What. are the the top-level, you know, shifts.

that have occurred in you because of. those two events? Well, I suppose I mean, I got I was kind. of late to fatherhood, I think, because. um. I think it was I think psychologically, I think maybe I didn't want to be. uh. I didn't want to be a father because I. didn't want to be my father. Mhm. Uh and, you know, so you find a. different way through. You find. different models. You know, I've got. friends that are incredible fathers. And. you kind of model that. And it's that. thing of like.

it's what humans do. We kind of go, like, I got Well, I could kind of do. that. I could see what he's doing there, and that's amazing. So, that felt like I. mean, it's such a. I mean, everyone does it. It's like not. a big deal that I've had a kid, but it. It's a big deal in my life, obviously. It's like it's uh. It's There's a quote in the book. I. can't I love quotes. Um it's like having. a medical procedure where your heart now. lives outside your body. I kind of There's a bit of me that kind. of I wish I'd done it sooner. And then. there's another There's another bit of. me that goes.

I wasn't ready for it sooner. I'm ready. for it now. Interesting. My friend said that to me. He's just had a baby, and he said, "Oh, I just wish I'd done it sooner.". I'm thinking, "Really?". But you know, it's. But it got you to to there. It's like. it's It's going to There's a great. Chinese expression, a great old proverb. The best time to plant a tree is 20. years ago. The second best time is now. Mhm. They're pretty wise, those Chinese guys. They know what they're talking about. Going back to, you know, your university.

time, cuz I remember cuz just kind of. going through in chronological order, I. remember I was reading about how. you, you know, you you leave the nest, you go and get, you know, you go and get. a You go to Cambridge, which I thought. was amazing, considering you're, you. know, you were an undiagnosed dyslexic. I'm a diagnosed. At the time you were undiagnosed, right? Yeah, I got diagnosed at college, but I. only got diagnosed as dyslexic to get a. free laptop. I mean, that was like I I didn't really. particularly care, didn't make any odds. You just get a long longer to sit your. exams. But it was um yeah, it's a it was.

not it was nice. I mean I think I. wouldn't recommend it to young people. because I think it's um. uh Cambridge is still now very. anachronistic. It's like going to. college in the 1950s. Mhm. It's like a time machine. It's like it's. just it's very old school and I mean. maybe it's changed a bit, but I don't. think it's changed much. Like living in. a church. Yeah. I don't think it's changed much. in every sense. Yeah, so it's you know, it is what it. is. But there's you know, it's also what. you're going there for. I think I went. there for.

in an unthinking way sort of it was a. away from something. I think I'd. remembered at a very deep level not. being able to read when I was a kid and. kind of being in the special ed class. And then wanting desperately to prove. myself. And so you kind of get there and get. your degree and go, right, well I never. have to worry about that again. Mhm. Which is dumbest thing in the world. I. mean it you know, everyone with any kind. of education has educated themselves. Because. really, what do you remember from. college? Years ago. Yeah.

Like it's whatever you're reading now. And fast forward a few years, you get. your degree, you get a job at Shell as a. marketing exec. Again, unthinking. Absolutely. unthinking. Like it it wasn't like it. was like a binary thing of like going I. didn't make a choice when I was 16 to. stay on at school. That was just like. the sensible thing. What what's everyone. doing? We're all staying at school. Okay. We're all going to go to. university then at 18. Okay, right, what's the best one? Okay, we'll try and. get into the best one. If you can't get. into that one, get into the second best. one. If not, you know, so you it's like. it conveyed about. And then after.

university it was right, everyone's. getting jobs. Okay, I guess I'll get a. job. But it I mean it's amazing how. little thought I put into my life. Mhm. Amazing, really. And when you consider. that I do something that is considered. to be uh you know, very creative. You. know, I write jokes and tell jokes for a. living. And you go, uh I it was a lack. of imagination that kind of [ __ ] me.". And and it [ __ ] you, right? Tell me. how What were the symptoms of being. [ __ ] by that? Well, I think it was the it was again. sadness, not depression, but in my. mid-20s just thinking, "Is this it? Is.

this all there is?". It felt like it was a trudge. I didn't. have any purpose. I was um. working to live, not living to work. And. I think it's not not everyone's going to. get that. Not everyone gets that break. And I'm very aware that it's not like. come on, dummies, get a job that you. love and get up and you're excited about. every day. It's like it's not easy for. everyone. It takes an awful lot of work. to find out what that thing is that's. going to make your heart sing. And then, you know, you find something you love.

doing and you never work again. It's not an easy thing, but if you can, it's worth betting your life on it. You wrote about that in the book, the. two adventures we will have in our. lives, which is finding your purpose and. then obviously going in the pursuit of. it. But sales like yours happened crazy. early. Like. kicked out of school, dropped out of. college, and then went right up and. started a company. Like that seems. And then you'd left the company by the. time you were 27. You were You were. almost onto midlife crisis, I think, at. 27.

true. Which is. It's It's completely true. That's great though. I mean, it means. you get to die 50 and you've done. everything. Exactly, yeah. So, what was what was the what was that. journey cuz do you see I mean, I sort of. talk about a quarter-life crisis of. being finding your purpose and cutting. the apron strings. And and and that's. about I think it's about responsibility. Mhm. It's about going, "Oh, I'm in charge of. this. I can't blame anyone else. This is. all me. This is all my fault." Which. should be an empowering phrase, but. sounds terrible. But it's all my fault.

The idea that right, I'm I'm in charge. Uh and I think it's often that thing of. like the expectation of parents or. whatever it is, the the idea that you're. living your life. vicariously through someone else or. someone's living vicariously through you. rather. is like. I I J.K. Rowling said this brilliant. thing about. where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line on taking. responsibility for your life? Cuz if a. 16-year-old kid says to me, "Yeah, I'm. kind of [ __ ] up, but my parents are. dicks.".

You go, "Oh, that sounds fair enough.". Yeah. Okay. But if a 40-year-old says. the same thing, you go. [ __ ] please. Come on. Yeah. You're 40. Where do you draw the line? The answer is somewhere. Somewhere you. draw the line. And there'll be 16-year-olds listening. to this going, "Yeah, I'm not blaming. anyone for any anything. I'm just I'm. I'm doing this myself.". Where do you draw the line? I think I was about 25. You think 25 is where you got to. No, no, no. That's where I drew the. line. you, okay. It's different for everyone. Okay, for you. be it's your road to Damascus. It's your.

"Oh, this is my one life." I mean, I. think my loss of religious faith was a. very important part of my um. Same. life. I think it was a huge thing of. going, "Religious faith faith for me was. the ultimate in procrastination." It was. about the next life. Yeah. And it was also there's. potentially a puppet master and a judge. So, I've just got to play to this Bible. potentially or, you know, what when I. was the same. I lost my religious faith. in Christianity when I was 18. Right. I was a bit late to the party. I. was about my, you know, 24, 25,

something like that. it's it's um and I don't view it I don't. view atheism as like uh this isn't going. to be um Christopher Hitchens and. Dawkins. You know, it's not like it's not like a. dry intellectual. aesthetic. It's like it's a rush of. blood to the head. Yeah. It's like I've. got one [ __ ] life and this is it. And. we're in it right now and there isn't a. second to waste. Let's do this. What are. we doing? What am I doing? What's. exciting? What's fun? What's and and. kind of stand or fall, it doesn't.

matter. Yeah. When I realized that I was an. atheist after trying to convince my. brothers of a Jesus and a and a God and. then really realizing I was an atheist I. spent two years absolutely obsessed with. atheism. So Dawkins, Hitchens, I watched. every video, every book you could read. and then I was an antagonist to to. religious people because it's almost. like I was trying to. at the center. Yeah, it was still. You don't lose it overnight. So it's. still it's like it's like people that. are you know. people would you know well I I live as a.

you know a hippie commune with no. belongings. You're still putting money at the. center. Yeah, exactly. of it's still the focus of that. religious thing of going well I've lost. my religious belief so now atheism's my. new religion. Exactly. an addict never really gets over an. addiction they just get addicted to. something new. Yeah. And I think that's why I think purpose. is the thing. And I think purpose as. well for someone who's had a religious. upbringing to go right well I'm going to. find what's the new thing? What are the. new rules for me? What are the rules for what's my. morality? What's my life going to be.

like? So that's it's very exciting. I. mean it really feels like it's a. I would encourage people to kind of. think about it and for me it was just. the the basics. I don't know how you. lost yours but mine was like so basic. It was exactly the same. I read I read. how you lost yours and it was I it was. exactly the same. If I'm right about this then all those. it's not yeah it's good news for me and. the other Christian boys but it's very. bad news for Ishmael. Yeah. Mark and Al, Tarek, it's bad news for. you. Yeah. So you went somewhere. to Jerusalem, yeah. I went to Jerusalem. and I had a look around and you go oh.

this isn't [ __ ] This is Disney. I. mean Jerusalem's one of the most. beautiful cities in the world. I would. encourage anyone to go there. It's it's. wonderful and I I love Israel but. you go you go there and you go this is. 900 years old not 2,000 years old. Please. This is let's stop kidding. ourselves. This is not none of this. happened. This is Disneyland. Um and I think there's a stage of. throwing the baby out with the. bathwater. And then you read more and I don't know. if you've kind of done this but you read. about the myth and what it is and what.

it you know the the story of Christ is. interesting. It's an interesting story, but the story the the. the the myth of it is interesting, not. the factual character. Mhm. I couldn't care less. Um but that thing. of like what remains when everything is. burnt away, that's what I get from that. story. Mhm. Okay, so if you burn everything else. away, what's essential you? What's the. thing that's left when there's nothing? Mhm. That's interesting. You go through. trials in life, you go through, you. know, hard times and what remains?

And when you lost your faith on that. point, did you Were you kind of. destabilized. by. Yes. unanchored almost, you know? Yeah. I didn't leave my job to be rich. and famous on TV. I left my job. for I don't Yeah. Yo ho ho, a pirate's life for me. We're. doing comedy. I'm doing a gig above a. pub. Someone gave me 20 pounds cash in. hand. That was I mean, it was crazy. I. had had like a good. job. But it's that thing where you go.

the good is the enemy of the best. How much to not live your life? How much to not follow your dreams? How. much do I have to give you across the. table? Now, I'm saying this to you now, right? And you're you're a wealthy man, you're. an investor or whatever, so it's going. to be a high figure. But for most people in their mid-20s, they've just left college or early 20s, they've left college and you go. I give you 35 grand to compromise on. everything and always be tired and just. and work to my time. And people go, "Okay.".

That's the the thing of like working for. someone else is. I think. that that's the big shift, right? So the. the my stand-up is a metaphor in the. book. I'm not trying to get people to. become stand-ups. Frankly, I don't need. the [ __ ] competition. But the idea of going going and doing. your thing, even if it's less. successful, but doing your thing, being. your boss, being your CEO, great. Like I'm all about that. When people. tell me they've started a little. business or done a little thing, you. just go, "Yeah, [ __ ] boss." Because. you you get like a serial.

entrepreneurs, cuz they do it once and. go, "Yeah, I I'm not working for. anyone.". I'm not. Let's challenge this. And so, when I started my business, I had many, many bosses, cuz I had lots of clients. So, I've got people that can call me at. 3:00 a.m. and just give me [ __ ]. And I think even as, you know, when I. And then I had investors as well, and. they can call me and give me [ __ ]. Yeah, but we Listen, Bob Dylan got to this before we ever. did. We all have someone to serve. I. mean, that's just the the nature of. life, right? So, I listen, I work for. myself and I'm a [ __ ] boss and making.

huge money. I've got an audience to serve every. night. Got 2,000 people that need to laugh for. 2 hours, three times a minute. And. that's my boss, right? So, I've got to. lean into I've got to make sure that. they're happy, or none of this can. happen. So, we all have people to serve. Of course, that's that's part of life. You have But you find out you do it on. your terms in your way. Great. I don't mind the call at 3:00 a.m. I. don't mind the audience wanting more. I. don't mind you know, that's great. I. love the travel, anything. That's all. fine, because I have the true north of a.

of a purpose. Mhm. You know, and then it's it's the other. thing on life where you kind of go. I write in the book quite a lot about. money. About the idea of like, what is it? What's going on there? Cuz it's such a. powerful thing. We spend so much of our. lives. We give up so much for these. tokens. And it's that classic line, you. know, to buy [ __ ]. we don't need to impress people we don't. like. It's It like. Who was it? The It's Byron has the.

quote, "Money is a magic lamp.". You have to know what to wish for. You. have to know what you want. Mhm. Otherwise, what you doing? Like. There's I mean, we're sort of in the. city of London now. There's people. working in the city that are just like. they're making huge money and they're. they're buying the Rolex, but what for? Quick one. Um when Jimmy got here, off. camera, before we started chatting, he. uh. he walked up and he saw the Huel bottle. on the table and I went to explain to. him what Huel was and he goes, "Oh, you. don't need to tell me. I I drink Huel. all the time." And he went on to explain. that he has Huel before he goes up on.

stage because it it's nutritionally. complete and gives him all the vitamins. and minerals and energy that he needs. before he goes up on stage. Um, and. that's exactly why I have Huel. And. that's the beauty of having a podcast. sponsor that you so deeply believe in. and one that has genuinely transformed. your life. I've just landed back from. Indonesia. I am all go because my entire. schedule, cuz I've been away for four. four weeks, has been condensed into the. month of November. And I am running right now at a. tremendous pace to get everything in my. schedule ticked off. Huel is there to.

make sure that my health and my. nutrition is ticked off at the same time. as my professional ambitions. That's the. role it's always played in my life. To zoom me right in on that moment then. You're working at Shell as a marketing. executive. There's a day, is it a moment, is it a. comment where you think, "Fuck this.". And then to go from there to comedian. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense to to an. external onlooker like me. I mean, Make it make sense for me, please. Okay, so I had a boss there, a guy.

called Mike Hall, who I'm recently kind. of got back in touch with a little bit. So, I was I was working for Shell. I. initially worked for an advertising. agency. He's the one you call an [ __ ] in your. book. No. Joking. But But that would have been good. Uh, so he's he's the That's a typo. Um, I'm joking. The, uh, so I was working for an advertising. company and then I figured out, okay, advertising is this is [ __ ] Who's. Who are these people calling me asking. me for [ __ ] A marketing manager. Right, get into marketing. So, I got a job with. Shell. So, I'm working for Shell. And.

then I kind of I figured out, look, I'm. not happy here. I was kind of low. energy. I was not the funny guy in the. office. I was just like, "Ah, this is. This is [ __ ] We're all working here. for shareholder value. I could give a. fuck." And uh, I. I went, "Okay, well, what's a cooler. job? What's a better version of this?". So, I went and did like the McKinsey. Boston Consulting interviews. So, I was. like I said to my boss, nice guy Mark, I'm like, I said, "Look, I'm going to. I'm going to go and try and get a job on.

these things." And he sat me down in his. office and just went, "No. I can't see it. I can't see it. Just you're just going to have the same. problem somewhere else. I just don't see it.". And that was kind of. enough. It was enough that he saw me as. like a funny nice guy and just went, "Yeah, this isn't for you. You're in the. wrong stream.". You know, so the ladder the analogy of. the the the ladder that you've climbed. is leaning against the wrong wall.

And there's no finer. like like ripping up your CV. metaphorically, going, "I never need. this again.". No one needs to know how I did in my A. levels ever again. No one gives a [ __ ]. about my degree. I mean, maybe some of. this stuff will come in handy on QI 10. years later, but otherwise, who cares? And you're just off doing your thing. And it's you know, none of that was. wasted. I mean, an education is a. incredible thing. What a gift to have. Um but it just felt like it was it was.

kind of freedom. And they they did a. little voluntary redundancy thing, which. was meant to get rid of the dead wood. It was meant to get rid of people at. you know, 55, 60 and just get them out. the door so more people could come in. And I was on the management graduate. scheme thing, blue chip thing. I just went, "Yeah, can I What would I. get if I left?". "Five grand." And I went, "I'm out.". [ __ ] great. Not only am I leaving, they're giving me more money to leave. And I was it's weird. I had like a. reputation when I started doing comedy. of being um.

the hardest working comic cuz I went out. 390 a year every year the first 5 years. Just like was like just on it. I was so feckless at work. It's a a good indication of if you're. doing the right thing. If like I used to. put in a meeting at 11:00 a.m. on a. Friday and another meeting in at 2:00. a.m. so that I could go to a movie in. Leicester Square and be back and just. go, "Oh, yeah, nothing happened.". Just like a lazy [ __ ]. Isn't that interesting? I was exactly. the same. I my attendance in school was.

30-40% but then and in fact it wasn't in. my business class. It was 100% my. business class and then when I left. school as this lazy kid that was going. to fail, I outworked everybody at the. thing that I love doing. Which is business, right? right? So it's a really good feedback. loop of like for anyone listening to. this of going, "What do you find easy?". What do you know, what's your edge? That's the other thing I talk about a. lot in the book. Your edge. What's your. thing? The thing that you do better than. anyone else. You don't have to be the. best in the world, by the way. You don't. have to be better than anyone else. But. what's the thing that you're good at.

that you could get better at that you. could be better than you last year. That's the key thing cuz take that. thing, if you can find out what that is. for you, and then apply some hard work. and time, that's your luck. Mhm. Be lucky. I always say that. I like be. lucky. But that that's what I mean by. luck. Luck and happiness being sort of the. same in German. It's a lovely uh sticky. phrase. Like be lucky. Like if you put. that in, you're you're buying lottery. tickets every time, right? So that hard. work you put into the business, it's. like lottery ticket, lottery ticket, lottery ticket, lottery ticket and hey.

presto, one of them hits because you're. there all the hours, working all the. hours and you're working smart. You're. working at the thing you're best at. You're kind of super focused on that. I want to talk to you about that point. about hard luck because that's been um. stigmatized in our society. But before. that, you you said something which is. [ __ ] you know, find that thing within. you that you can be the best at, the. thing that you enjoy and etc. etc. When. I when I say that to people, they always. say to me, "But Steve, how?

How do I find the thing? How do I find. my purpose? Is it just I sit down with. myself and make a list? Do I. Yeah, I mean I I literally went through. uh it's two books um Zen and the Art of. Making a Living I would recommend to. people. It's still available. And. there's a book called um What Color Is. Your Parachute? They're quite corporate. both of them. Even Zen and the Art of. Making a Living is quite corporate, but. it's basically you write essays about. yourself. And you you it's a workbook. It's like a big chunky workbook. I did. both of them. And it kind of and for me I kind of then.

slightly threw it away and went show. business, baby. But it's interesting of. like knowing yourself. Like who really knows you? Your friends probably know you. Ask. them. Ask them what they think. It's It's an. interesting sort of process to kind of. go like and you could be a ripe old age. and this would still apply. Like do you. know who you are, how you're perceived, and who you really are, and what you. feel like? Um because it's it's that. thing where you got I like those. personality tests online are not dumb to. do. You know, there's there's that um.

Myers-Briggs or. No, no, there's there's a Jordan. Peterson one Understanding Myself. Like. 100 questions and it tells you things. That's That's worth I had a crack at. that recently and really enjoyed it. Like cuz you get the results and go I. agree with that. Oh, that's surprising. Well, you know, it's it's interesting. It's almost like a um. a. um. a horoscope. Like everyone likes their. horoscope, right? Because. everyone's a little bit egotistical and. like oh, I wonder what it says about me. And I think those personality tests kind. of can be very very useful for going.

well, how are you going to find your. edge? What's the thing you enjoy? Is it. being with people? Is it on your own? Are you introverted, extroverted? That. Myers-Briggs thing might lead you in a. direction of going well, I can't be I'm. not going to be a salesman. I'm going to. be And these are jobs we're talking. about as opposed to. um. something beyond that like a purpose, a. career, uh an entrepreneurial spirit. Mhm. Um. People find that. So, I've done I've. done the Myers-Briggs. I've done this. I've done the Jordan Peterson test. And. it's clear that my passion is X. But I'm.

in that job unthinking as you describe. it and I've got mortgage to pay. I've. got, you know, bills. mean that thing of like I nearly fell. into that trap. I was like the things you own end up. owning you. Like there's nothing you can buy in the. mall that you give a [ __ ] about in 5. years time. There's nothing. Like like in the early. phase of your life, don't [ __ ] buy. anything. Because it's like it you know, the. things you own end up owning you. Like. the payments on a sports car nearly.

stopped me going to comedy. Because you. Well, what ties you down? If I bought a. house in, you know, the '90s when I was, you know, working for Shell, I would have been a great investment and. I never would have left. Because you're paying that mortgage, you're doing that thing. What do you. need? You know, what do you What do you. need the money for? What are you using. the money for? You know, when you take. away the commute and you take away the. the lunch that you're buying and the. night out the weekend and a couple of. drinks to, you know, because you need. some fun. It's it's it's amazing how. little when I First year in comedy, I. made literally no money. I mean, literally nothing. First money I got was.

80 pounds in cash for going to driving 5. hours to Plymouth and back. But I had a. little bit saved. I had this like 5. grand from Shell and I was living at my. mom's. initially. So it was like it's fine. I. had enough. You know that that amazing story about. um. Kurt Vonnegut and uh Joseph Heller. No. They're at a party in New York and the. party's [ __ ] incredible, right? So. the guy It's in the Hamptons, right? So. the guy he's married to a supermodel. He's got Warhols. He's got Picassos. The.

house is unbelievable. Like the Wolf of. Wall Street party. That's the incredible. amazing party. Everyone's there. And Kurt Vonnegut, incredible writer, says to Joseph. Heller, "This guy made more money one. day last week than you made out of. Catch-22.". Like laughs at him. And Joseph Heller. goes, "Yeah, but I got something he'll. never have.". Enough. Hm. What's enough? What's enough for you? What's What's. enough? What's the There's two things. going on, right? There's There's safety.

and security. Right? There's our caveman. thing of like going, "Well, I need We. need to be secure." That's about a bear. not attacking, right? We feel pretty. secure in our worlds. Right? And then. scarcity is about It's another caveman. thing of like going, "Okay, so we need. to collect some stuff cuz winter is. coming, so we need some We need some. coin. We need a little bit of gold to. take care of us.". How much is. enough? I mean, there's going to be a. trillionaire. Next 5 years is going to. be someone's going to be a trillionaire. It's going to be in the news. You know.

why? Cuz a billion wasn't enough. And then millionaires and billionaires. and trillionaires. But they're working for money. The money. is the is the important thing. It's the. That's what That's the whole center of. their being. It's interesting cuz as I reflect on my. childhood, I was clearly the one of the. big drivers for my success was. insecurity. Broke family, black kid in an all-white. school. Um. Parents were never in the house. I'm. going to school every day with [ __ ]. stained trousers and stained T-shirts.

and no money. So, like this this deep. insecurity must have been like sort of. burnt into me that like. if you get money, Steve, then you won't. feel ashamed anymore. It's It's interesting I think it's a. really interesting point because as. someone that lost their faith. Mhm. Um I think fame and fortune are the. secular heaven. Like we get rich and famous and. everything's okay. Yeah. There's no problems when you're rich and. famous. That's what I thought. Everything's fine. Well, of course, because it is like a If you think about.

like legacy now becomes. the afterlife. Yeah. And fame and fortune become. uh the recognition of people that we. don't know becomes. a type of heaven. So, I think that's a It's a perfectly. rational thing to to you know, are you. moving towards something or away from. something? Well, in an ideal world, it's. kind of a mix of the two. And at what. stage do you personally, and I think. probably if I was I'm not a. psychotherapist, but I would say you.

need to build some ritual around it. And. I'm sure you did when you sold your. company or left, but build some ritual, have a trip, do something shamanic, and. go, "We did it. We're okay. We have. enough.". Yeah. And now focus on towards something. Yeah. But that's like that part of your life. is kind of over now, right? It's like. the the. What was that thing for you? What was. the. Trying to Trying to Trying to escape. pain and get to a point of. I guess freedom. And freedom is a very. psychological thing. It's the freedom.

from shame, freedom from not being able. to, freedom from having to do things you. don't want to do. And I think really. freedom from shame. I think that's. probably the very heart of it. I think that's what it is. It's very deep, man, cuz it's that thing. where you go, "I feel um empathetic. towards the younger you." That's like a. tough thing to have to go through. Mhm. But you go, "It's kind of great. It's kind of great. Look at what Look at. how far. you got. Mhm. on away from.".

Yeah. Without even the towards, without even. the amazing kind of, you know, and it's. it's like, "Well, what next?" That's a. It's a sad story, but then you you you. look at people that got given everything. and have done nothing because they had. no sense of purpose. They had no fire. under them. They had no. I think. Yeah, it's it's it's kind of an. inspiring. story. But then it's you know, there's. no. I suppose it's like, "What What's going.

to motivate you next? What's going to be. the thing that you go, you know, what do. I want to do?". And this is exactly it. So, you think. about how important purpose is for. people to feel stabilized and fulfilled, etc., as we've talked about earlier. And. then you think about these people that. are they're striving for a million, a. billion, a trillion. Well, think about what a midlife crisis. is, right? So, I talk a lot about. midlife crisis in the book and you go, "Well, midlife crisis is someone that's. found their purpose and they've done. their thing and then they've gone, is. this it?". Yeah. Is this it? And then they want something. like excitement.

So, what do they buy? Sports car. Is it exciting? Oh, [ __ ] no. I mean, maybe. Maybe if you're super into cars, I guess it's good, but like that on it's. all advertising speaks to this, right? I. know I'm right cuz all advertising ever. is about it's no longer about the. functionality of the product. It's about. the Well, what What What What do you. want? You want to You want to feel like. uh. Self-esteem. Like self-esteem, great, Rolls-Royce. You want excitement? We got Ferraris for. you. Mhm. You want to get your dick sucked? We got. a Porsche. Whatever the thing is, the. you know, you got that that that kind of.

there's a different one and they're. playing on different emotions. And I think being aware of I mean, I. come back to it all the time. What do. you want? Is the fundamental question. Like in any. scenario, when you sit down to eat, what. do you want? What do you want from life? What What do you want? What's What's the. thing that you want? And often it's it's. often asking that question multiple. times because the first answer tends to. be. [ __ ]. Well, I think wishing wells work,

right? But they don't work when you. think they work. It's nothing to There's no magic. The. magic is, if there is any, knowing what. to wish for. Knowing what that thing is. You can Someone says, "I want a million. pounds." You go, "You don't know what. you [ __ ] want." You want tokens for. things that you might want in the. future. What do you want? What are you doing? What are you trying. to be? Who Who Who are you trying to. become? I ask people this young people. specifically this question and they will. say things that are all about external. validation. So, I want to be like, yeah,

they'll one variation of famous that you. know, that makes you public speaker and. you say, "Why do you want to be a public. speaker?" And really when you get to the. crux of it, what they actually want to. be is they want the admiration that they. think public speakers get because, you. know, their dad didn't talk to them or. something. Yeah, but I could I could see that. The. idea of going I think a lot of that is. like. that tribal thing of going I want to be. recognized. I'm in a very privileged. position in that I'm famous. And I would. argue that's the norm. That's the norm for the longest time in. human history. That everyone knew.

everyone. We used to live in what for. like. 10,000 years, you know, what longer. The longest time we were we were in. tribes between 60 and 100 people. Everyone knew everyone. A stranger was a. weird thing. And now we see strangers all the time. and we act like it's normal, but it. ain't. And so that desire to belong, to. be famous, what what is was ever thus. It's always been that way. There was a there's a you know, it was. in ancient Rome people wanted to be. famous and wanted to be adored and. wanted to be that's like a it's valid.

and and you know, how do you deal with. that? How do you. how do you get that thing? And if if it. helps them strive. I think like I make a real distinction. between jealousy and envy. in in the book and I talk about jealousy. being bad. I don't want you to have. that. I don't want you to have that. I don't. necessarily want it, but I don't want. you to have it. [ __ ] that guy. He. shouldn't have that. Why did he get. given that? That's some [ __ ]. Envy's really good. Envy is like it's what you want. It's. like motivation. It's like oh, that.

guy's he's got an electric scooter. That. looks really cool. I'm going to get one. of those. Great. You know what you tells. you what you want. It tells you what the. what's the thing that you're attracted. to. So I think it's like can be a real. force for good. So that thing of like when you were a. kid and you're looking at the other kids. and they're suited and booted and clean. and tidy going to school and their. parents are there and you go right. I'm. building that for me. I I investigated this particular topic. in my in my book at great length. And. but I want to ask you the question as if. I don't know the answer because I want.

to hear get your take on it. Um I agree. with everything you said and I I also. especially this point about knowing that. you're enough now. Um. in my book I got to a point in chapter. 18 where I'm like, "How do I know that. I'm enough right now, but also get the. purpose and fulfillment that comes from. ambition and striving for more?". And it felt like a contradiction. Like. I'm enough, I have everything I need. You know, I think we're talking about. here, we're talking about gratitude. It's that thing of like you're grateful. for what you've got. You're grateful for.

what you've got just the solid stuff. You lose everything tomorrow, you've got. your health. Mhm. Right. And there's. people out there that don't. And you've. got friends around you. Great. You You. know, that gratitude can't be stifling. You've got I mean they're like. practicing gratitude. I mean they've. done all the statistical studies on it. It makes such a difference to your life. to be grateful for what you have. And to. go, "Right. This is [ __ ] amazing.". Like I you know, the older you get, the. more your friends die. The more you go, "Fucking I never got to see this. Never. got to enjoy that thing. Never got to.

sad." Had a friend pass away recently. and you you just you become aware of. your mortality and you're so grateful to. be here and to be in this game and to be. uh. around. But that gratitude can't stop you from. going, "But I also want to go further. and farther." And I think the great. thing about being a comic is. we're brilliant with failure. We We made friends with failure a long. time ago. We've died many times on. stage. I've written more jokes that. don't work than you.

So many more. You may not have written any jokes that. don't work. I've written thousands of. them. But that thing of like that feedback. loop of failure is so it's it's such a. great life lesson to learn because you. go, "Well, look. I can fail all the time. and I'll fail and I'll fail and I'll. fail. And I'll eventually I'll fail so. many times I run out of ways to fail and. then I'll we'll call that success.". And you kind of you build and build and. you kind of go, "Well, what's the next. thing I'm going to do?" I I'm very lucky. cuz I have a job which is it's a task. without end. And that's where I think.

happiness lies. in those tasks without. end, where you go, right, I'm going to. spend my time trying to be a better. comic. You want to try and write in a different. style. I'm going to try and be I'm going. to try and be a goat. I'm going to try. and be on the Mount Rushmore of comedy. Now, I know that probably won't happen. But I've got a [ __ ] lottery ticket. and I'm allowed to try and do it. And. that feels. like an incredibly that feels like a. life's journey. I don't know if that Did that answer the. question? I don't know if it did.

But then the. the question was about. No, you did cuz you reframed. beyond. You reframed my point which was um about. knowing you're enough. You reframed it. to gratitude. And when and gratitude and. ambition can coexist. Yes, but it it it's a tricky one though, isn't it? Because sometimes you feel. like am I being ungrateful by wanting to. more? Yeah, I yeah, yeah. And also and how much of a kind of you. kind of go, well, jeez, I've already got. a lot of stuff. Do I need any more. stuff? Do I need any more? But it's I. guess it's not about.

things or people. It's about how we. spend our days ultimately. So, it's not about like there isn't a. god. No one's keeping score. There's no. one from above who's going to go at the. end of your life, okay, let's take a. look at the stats. And in my head, I. kind of wish there was. Someone going, you did that many. So, what's happiness? Well, I've got a couple of theories on. happiness. I think flow states are where happiness. lives. What's a flow state? So, I know, but I'm just. if you get into a state where you lose. track of time, that's a pretty good.

indicator. A lot of people get it with uh sports. Okay, so you you're doing something that. you so enjoy, you're so engaged in this. activity, you forget even where you are. You might get it playing video games. I. get it on stage. What I'm just in this. moment and I enjoy it. I'm totally. engaged and I'm I'm in the flow. You see. musicians. kind of embody it on stage. Spend as much time in a flow state as. you can in life.

If If that can become your job, then. tremendous. That is. that's success. Everything else is. Who cares? But that thing is like that's. amazing. So, what's your flow state? What's the state What's the thing you do. where you go This is This is my [ __ ]. What is it? For me? Yeah. Uh a lot of things come to mind. One of. them is um I've got this show that's. touring at the moment. It's in the. London Palladium in in February. Um and. I was As you were saying that, I was.

imagining sitting in the chair on stage. with with my choir and it that feels. like my flow state. Feels like I'm just. on my own. Just [ __ ] floating. You'll try and hold on to that moment. Yeah. You'll try and it's like quicksilver cuz. it's like the time will just float by. and you know you'll be there. And. there's kind of a high before the high. even thinking about it. But that thing. of going that's next February. Mhm. That won't do. You're going to need that. once a week. You're going to need that. once a day. That more of that like. leaning into that edge of going that's. If that's where I'm happy,

that's where you should be. This is. lovely, actually. I think I think kind. of there's it's a I think the reason. sort of panel shows are so popular on TV. is because this is missing from our. culture. Like this is how we should end. every day. Mhm. The reason podcasts are blowing up is. because people desperately want to be in. a conversation. And there's something. very intimate about podcasts. There's. something about. the long form and listening that's. really. When you don't do them on Zoom. Yeah. You can't do them on Zoom. There's. no eye contact. My other theory on.

happiness. is it's expectations exceeded. Oh, yeah. Because listen, what are birthdays a. [ __ ] right? New Year's Eve's a [ __ ]. waste of time. Amateur drinkers. I've. never had a good New Year's Eve. Never. New Year's Eve is [ __ ] all. And why? Because the expectation is this is going. to be the best night ever. We're going. to It's going to be huge. Everyone's. going to be there. Even if everyone is. there and it is a really good night, you. go, "Yeah, but I thought it was going to. be amazing.". And it was just. really good.

Mhm. And then sometimes on a [ __ ] Tuesday, someone goes, "I just want I bumped into. the guy and then we went to a thing and. then we ended up at a. had a [ __ ] great time." It's the it's. that thing of like tricking yourself. into kind of just lower your. expectations. Maybe a little bit less. time looking at what everyone else is. doing on holiday on Instagram is pretty. healthy. And looking around trying enjoying the. little simple pleasures and. "Oh, we ordered in and the food was. [ __ ] amazing and it arrived half. great.". Does that link to your point about.

comparison being the thief of joy? Of course, yeah. Compare and despair. Everyone's having a better time all the. Check. Instagram now. We're going to feel like. dummies for sitting here having a really. interesting conversation. Oh, [ __ ] We should be [ __ ] water. skiing in the Amazon. Yeah. We're dummies. But it's being where you're at, right? So, it's. And that's raising our expectations of. how our life should be going when I see. Timmy doing his jet skiing and. But it's it's all the places you won't. go.

All the things you won't do to be where. you are. There's a million people you're not. because you you did this and you didn't. do that. Now, you could have gone down another. road. Maybe you could have been a great. sportsman. Maybe you could have been a. great academic, but you didn't go down. that road. You went down this road. And enjoying that and being where you're. at is kind of it's kind of important. Do. you know, once you commit to something? It's like. you know, you're it's fine. You can't rely on all these different I. think it's it's overwhelming at the.

moment what's going on in in social. media. Um because it just feels like you're. constantly bombarded by. options and easy lives. You know, the latest kind of iteration. of the fame heaven myth is reality. stars. So, there's there's big difference. between again, another conflation, but. being a celebrity and being famous. I'm famous, but I'm not celebrity. I'm famous for something that I do. But celebrity is just.

themselves. The Queen or a Kardashian, they're just. themselves, and the money rolls in and. it's tremendous. And you know, it's just. it's a [ __ ] lottery win. Hard work very pivotal to your um. You get in here today by the sounds of. it, especially in those early years as a. comedian after leaving Shell. What role does hard work play in our. society? Um is there any in becoming a. successful individual or whatever. pursuit or whatever passion you're. pursuing? There's a There's probably a. counter narrative that I think has.

emerged in our country, maybe because of. social media has allowed people to kind. of converge behind that and relinquish. responsibility of their situations by. calling hard referring to hard work as. being a really really sort of toxic. thing. And I've I felt that more recently. I. didn't see it when I was younger. I mean, let's let's You know what? Let's. have a You gambling man? Uh no, it depends. I mean, in life, not. not in the casino, but. Yeah, let's let's put a bet on that. Let's see how that works out for them. I just don't think that's going to bring. them happiness. Which part? The hard work is toxic.

Okay. Okay, don't do don't do hard work then. Good luck, dummy. It's just not going to work for you. That's not going to pay out. Because. what's the metric of our society? It's. results, right? And I don't care how. There's two great myths in our society, right? There's one myth is talent. and ideas, and there's another myth. which is hard work. They're both [ __ ] Total [ __ ]. [ __ ] Cuz the ideas are cheaper than. table salt, right? There's There's.

everyone's got ideas. I've got an idea. for an app. It's the Uber for. fill in the thing here. It's Yeah, great. Sure, sure. It's Every idea is. about implementation. Every. Sports is a good analogy, right? So, Michael Jordan, greatest of all time, right? There's no. debate. He's the greatest. How much did. he work? [ __ ] more than anyone else. How much natural talent did he have? Uh. more than anyone else. What if he hadn't. worked? You never heard of him.

He never would have made the team, let. alone being the greatest, but wouldn't. have even made the team if he hadn't. trained. It's a good analogy for life of going, "Look, whatever talent you have, if you. don't do the work as well, it's it's. it's just a waste of potential." So, I. think it's it's the absolute. fundamental. Now, hard work and drudgery are not the same. thing, right? Like there's a there's a. working smart and working hard, and. there's a difference between the two. Like if you're if you're working at. something and it's like hard work alone. won't do anything, you know, it's about. what stream you're in.

And the I suppose the extreme example. would be if you're collecting. um. you know, recyclable metals on a favela. dump in South America, work as hard as. you want. Nothing's ever going to You're. never going to get to that level. So, you you work hard if you must, and you. work smart if you can. If you can't you. know, if anyone listening to this is. already in a privileged position. in the. uh you know, odds are Western world, doing okay, have a digital phone, that's.

you're doing better than a third of the. world before you even start. You know, most people don't have running. water. You know, most people don't have. a flushing toilet. The world's in a. [ __ ] terrible state. So, it's that. thing of going, "Well, work as smart as. you can. Work at the thing that you're. best at.". I think school teaches us maybe the. wrong lesson. School teaches us a lesson. about mediocrity and being all-rounders. And yet we live in a world that does not. reward all-rounders. Who gives a [ __ ] about all-rounders? If you if you get a D in physics.

and you get an A in English, I say just go to English lessons. Because we're going to get you up to a C. grade in physics. I'll tell you what the. world doesn't need, someone who's [ __ ]. at physics. Still [ __ ] at physics with no natural. So, find out what you've kind of got a. natural you know, that edge thing. Find. out what you have a natural ability for. What's the thing that you do best? And. again, I would remind people it's not. the best in the world, just better than. anything else you do. Lean into that. Like I'm all for. following your dreams if your dreams are. what you're best at.

And the opinions of family and friends. don't count. And then it's it's a little bit I. suppose it's a bit tough love. It's that. thing of going look Look at what your. inner critic says. Okay? And it won't be wrong. Look at what your inner critic says. about you. Walk back the cruelty. And you've got it. Okay, that's the. reality. That's the starting point. That's. that in your book and I was I was in I. was laying in bed. It was actually audio. book I was listening to it and I and. you said the thing about your inner.

critic, which a lot of people obviously. don't want to admit is their inner. critic is usually right. And I remember. sitting there thinking there that can't. be right. Let me check this. And then I. started listening to my inner critic for. a couple of seconds and I thought no, that's right. That's right. That's. right. But please expand on that idea of. being. the the the idea of the inner critic is. going look, I I went to a. fancy university, right? And I think. Cambridge is where impostor syndrome was. built. There's There's a lot of impostor. syndrome in the world, right? You arrive. at a new workplace and you go, "Jesus,

they must have made a mistake and got. the wrong CV and given me the job and. all crap." Or I'm at this new college or. I'm I'm at this new I'm starting this. thing and I don't know what I'm doing. That feeling of I'm not enough and I. don't know what I'm doing is why you buy. the business management for dummies book. and [ __ ] read it the night before. It's what drives you to do the homework. So, I got to Cambridge and I thought I'm. not smart enough to be here. And then I. worked my [ __ ] nuts off and it turned. out I was wrong. And I was smart enough to be there and I. did really well.

Because I [ __ ] cuz I was motivated by. the I'm not good enough to be here. I. need to work. I need to work hard. You. know, you start in comedy and you go, "Oh my god, I've. given up everything to be a comedian. I've got 20 minutes of jokes that work. I I'm going to need thousands of jokes. that work. They all have to work. [ __ ]. You get to work. What's the motivation? What's the thing that wakes you up at. 4:00 in the morning and you go, "I need. to [ __ ] do this. I can't rely on just. being I am just going to wise crack and. you know, asking a comic to improvise an.

hour-long show is like asking a magician. to do real magic.". The work is done in the gym. By the time. I get to the stage, I know it's going to. be a good show. I know I've tried these. jokes on other people. I know we're a. lock. You know, 10 20% of the evening is about. the fun that happens in that room, the. messing around with the audience, the. the showing off, the work that I've done. in the gym, the muscle memory of knowing. how to make people laugh. Great. But I'm. going to arrive ready.

There's something really interesting in. that when you were talking about the. reason why you succeeded at Cambridge is. because you didn't feel like you were. smart enough to be there and etc. etc. etc. That also sounds a lot like what I. described when I said the reason why I. pursued money and trying you know, tried. to be successful was because I felt. inadequate in my in myself it and it. became this great motivator. Yeah. And this there's there's like a there's. a there's a plus to that and then. there's this potential danger in. But are we being a bit like. you know, that that thing of going.

giving kids too much self-esteem. Giving. people, not kids necessarily cuz this is. about life stage, right? What we're. talking about here isn't about when you. leave college and when you're young and. when you're doing something, right? There'll be people listening to this in. their 40s that are going to start a. business and do something [ __ ]. exceptional with their lives. There's. people in their 50s that are going to do. that. There's people in their 60s. I. don't believe there's like a a knock-off. point. People in their 70s? Yeah, [ __ ] those people. The Delta variant dealt with them. They're gone, man. There's none left. I'm sorry. Hey, the good news is the.

pensions crisis is over. But that thing of like going, well, you're going to you know, people people. do. people do extraordinary things. If they. if but they they put the work in. And and I think people lean into the. myth of like. that thing of like oh, he was a genius. You read you know, Forbes magazine or. whatever about business people doing. incredibly well. It's like, well, this. guy is a genius. Steve Jobs thing is. they're genius. Genius love Bill Gates. He's genius. And then you read about. that these these guys that are like. finance guys, they wake up at 5:00 in.

the morning and he only sleeps for 3. hours a night and he does so much and he. knows everything and uh he works so. hard. It's It's always both. It's always both. And then plus time, you need you know, that 10,000 thousand hours thing isn't. isn't wrong. It's just that's the. minimum. What could you stand to do for 10,000. hours that won't feel like drudgery? What could you stand to do now for the. next 10 years of your life that won't. feel like uh this again? And if you're only motivated by the.

paycheck, it's like, well, how hard could you work? Quick one. As many of you know, I've. been trying to make my life a little bit. more sustainable as it relates to energy. ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport. and bought an electric bicycle. And My. Energy as a sponsor of this podcast is. one of the brands that make that. transition much, much easier. They are. at the forefront of British renewable. eco-smart technology and their products. are really really changing the game. If. you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm. holding in my hand. This is called the. Eddi, right? It's the UK's number one.

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Eddi. It's It's a real game-changer of a. product and one that I'm going to be. installing in my home soon. Paychecks, you talked about one of the. lessons you brought over from your. business career was um. branding. You said one of the the most important. things you carried over from your. business career to stand up is branding. You sell your specialty. Yeah. I think that's that thing like I. mean branding in a very loose sense. It's that thing of like knowing how. you're perceived. So when you walk on. stage, if you're like suited and booted.

and you look as if you're hosting a TV. show, how long is it going to be before. some dummy at a TV channel goes, "He should be hosting a TV show. This. guy looks the part.". Like that thing of like that simple. thing of going this is a visual medium. I'm standing in front of people. I don't. think It's not like people go, "Oh, you. know, if you don't get them in the first. 5 minutes, you're in trouble." 5. minutes? You're having a laugh. If you. don't get them in the first in on the. Before I've hit the mic, they've made a. decision about me in a club. You know, this guy Oh, this guy is. [ __ ] knows what We can all relax. This This guy knows what he's doing.

It's like the wishing well. Yeah. And it's like that thing of like. you go. uh. you know, someone someone uh. faking confidence. is. exactly the same to the casual observer. So that thing of like what you're What. What are you faking? Fake being a good person. To the casual. observer, it's the same. Being a good person to the casual. observer, tax. Seems like a good segue. Yeah. Well, I mean the tax thing's. really It's quite an interesting thing. when you get publicly shamed.

Mhm. Uh that you can't You know, you learn a. lesson. You You still go. I totally missed that. Oh, okay. Well, I mean it's. What happened was there was a. the long story, I suppose, is. you have an accountant, right? And your. accountant says, "How much tax do you. want to pay?" "Oh, Oh, a scheme." And. you go, "Yeah, great. Is it legal?". Yeah. And they go, "Yeah, it's legal." And you. go, "Okay.". And they go, "Yeah, you can pay as much. as you want, or pay this, or what's It's. quite They They use terms like, "It's. quite an aggressive scheme." And you go, "Okay. But, there's less tax, and you. get to keep more. Okay, then Well, that.

sounds good.". And I suppose every anyone that's ever. bought an ISA. has done a tax avoidance scheme. Mhm. That's a government-backed tax avoidance. scheme. So, I was doing a bunch of. those, and government enterprise. initiative things, and trusts, and quite. complex financial things. So, the money. was rolling in, and it was just all. going through the accountants out to. these things. And. one day it all caught up. So, one day, I don't know how exactly. I. presume HMRC leaked something, but. that's okay.

Uh and it went from being on the cover. of the paper to going, "You know, you've. done an aggressive tax scheme. This is. morally wrong." And I'd never thought of. it as being moral. I'd never I'd just. gone, "Well, I pay as little as you can, and whatever. I'm still kicking in a. lot.". Um and it was just like. I I had that feeling. It was almost like. um suicide with a bungee rope. You felt like you were losing. everything. And then, it kind of snapped. back, and it was okay. But, the. sensation of what it would be like to be. canceled. I've had that. That kind of,

you know, not PTSD. I haven't been in a. bomb blast, but, you know, you have that. feeling of like what that would be like. Um. So, and then the Prime Minister comes. out, and he's at the G20, and he does a. press conference where he talks about. nothing other than your tax affairs, and. how morally reprehensible you are. And. he's the guy that brings in austerity, and gave us Brexit, and, you know, Scottish independence, and whatever. And you go, "Ah, [ __ ] I'm. This is going to be" And then, I'm doing.

a topical comedy show that week. where we're talking about the most. talked about things. And I'm the most talked about thing. How did you actually feel in that. moment? I I. behind the scenes? I had. So, the news broke on a Sunday. I was I. didn't sleep for about maybe 3 days. I. mean, you know, I didn't sleep, you. know, there's always an hour here or. there, but. I was having panic attacks. And that sensation of a panic attack, if. you haven't had one, is you you you. can't. get comfortable in your own skin.

You can't sit, you can't stand, you. can't eat, you can't drink. You You're. just like. nothing feels right. You're kind of. just off. And I I took some I took like. a beta blocker on the first day. And then I had the meds. I had like the. beta blockers and the Valium and the. stuff I got like prescribed enough to. send me down a black hole. And then I didn't take anything. I just. had them as a talisman of like, "Okay, I'll have that." But it was kind of. panic attacks and waves of that and. guilt and shame.

and. you know, hard lessons. Cuz you find out who your friends are. So, couple of people that I was pretty close. to were. gleeful. Were like, "Oh, that guy's been brought. down a peg or two.". Like. it's a it's a hard thing. It's a hard. thing to learn. And then some other. people stepped up to the plate. You know, and you go, "Wow, that's I'm. not really interested in fair-weather. friends." Like everyone comes to a. showbiz party. Of course they [ __ ].

do. The showbiz party, baby. Um. but the people that call you when you're. at your lowest. and go, "Fine. I love you. You're You're not the worst. thing you've ever done.". You go, "Great.". And on that point, you you talk. openly about how you've had. depressive bouts. Yeah, I mean, I I spoke about it in the. book because I think it's a um. I wanted to kind of deliver on Listen, if I hadn't talked about the tax thing.

in the book, I think people readers. would have felt short-changed. Very much. like HMRC did. Um. But again, the depression and anxiety, I. suffer more with anxiety than. depression, and I try and see it in a. very positive way. I try and be as. positive as I can in life. And go, so if. I have an anxiety attack, you go, well, that's sort of the flip side of. creativity, right? So, if you have a. mind that's whirring all the time, you know, sometimes it's going to wake. you up at 5:00 in the morning with a. panic attack. And that's all right. You. know, I can white-knuckle that. I'm I'm.

lucky that mine aren't that severe. It's. not like I'm. better and braver than other people with. mental health problems that need to. medicate. I'm just lucky that it's not. as bad for me. But, I'm I'm aware of it, and I think. talking about it does help, because all. we have is talking therapy. So, if that talking therapy is someone. listening to my book and and going, oh, he seems all right, and he's he deals. with this, and he's going through it, and I know that I'm not alone in this. Because the first time you have a panic. attack, it's it's [ __ ] terrifying, because you think, is this my forever.

now? Cuz it's all you can feel, and it's. overwhelming, and you go, well, this is. this it? Is the first time you get. depressed? First time like a real depression hits. you, it's like, oh, wow, this is a. this is awful. When was the first time? Um the first one was probably early. early 20s, like after college, like uh. uh. a black mood that just wouldn't shift, and it was. yeah. Uh.

yeah, it's pretty it's pretty scary. And then, I had I had one in Australia a. couple of years ago, like 2018, where I and I could kind of see what it. was, like there's a bit of your mind. that's like always, uh you know, aware, and it was like I. traveled that I I'd done like 160. flights that year, and it was I did. Australia twice in a month, and it's I. was so broken, I was so stripped of. serotonin, and I took a Valium to sleep. on the plane, and that strips more. serotonin, and I was just like, it's the inability. to feel joy. Um so, I don't know if you've had anyone.

die in your life, but sometimes someone. on their deathbed you make them their. favorite meal. You get the food from the. specialty place. I remember going to see. a friend who was dying and we bought him. Scotch eggs from Fortnum & Mason. Like. his favorite thing. And he looked at them and he was. grateful, but he couldn't eat them cuz. he just didn't have an appetite. And. when you're depressed, it's the appetite. for life. is just gone. It's just you haven't got it. Um. but it's this too shall pass. You know, the the that thing of going, "Well, you. can just.

you know, I can white knuckle it and. just kind of get through that and other. people can medicate for a couple of. weeks and then sort of okay.". And do you think these things are. It's an interesting question to ask and. probably quite naive, but do you think. these things are. a symptom of the way we live our lives? Panic attacks, depression, or do you think they are. part of the innate human human. experience regardless of the way that we. live our lives? I think it's a it's a great question.

I think uh I think depression is a part. of life. I think it's you know, probably people. have always had that and it I think. there is a um. there's a. there's a benefit to these things. There's a. um. uh. it's not only negative. You know, melancholy can be a very beautiful. thing. Sometimes it's very appropriate. to be down, you know, when if you're. grieving someone. That's you know, you. talk about being depressed when someone. dies. You you it's grief. It's a.

different sort of thing that's uh of. course, it's it's uh it's normal. I. think that thing about for me. I think. you know, the nurture thing is the thing. that we can change. I'm a I'm I'm a. great believer that we could change and. and do better. But yeah, maybe it's maybe it is a. symptom of how we're living our lives. and we could do better. You know, I'm sure if I was doing. um ayahuasca every weekend, I'd have. less panic attacks. But at the moment, I don't feel kind of.

drawn towards that world, but I'm kind. of aware that that exists. I've kind of. got some friends in that world, and I. kind of I'm aware there's other I've got. a friend that was on antidepressants for. 30 years. and started doing ayahuasca and is now. off them. Now, it's not even first-hand. It's definitely not scientifically. relevant. Don't take medical advice from. me, kids. But it strikes me that there are other. ways. There's other ways and that. there's ancient cultures that had this. [ __ ] locked down. You didn't lose your virginity till you. were 26.

Yeah, very late. And again, I spoke. about that in the book because I think. there is a. a perception in society that it is a. race and you need to do that early and. you need to be, you know, [ __ ] with a weapons-grade. dick because. everyone's watching Pornhub and, you. know, whatever. It's It's uh I thought. it was a nice thing to share because I. think some kid of 24 is going to read. that and go, "I might be all right. I might be normal.". You described that as being a a fear. I.

remember very distinctly trying to have. sex when I was 16 and just being totally. [ __ ] terrified because I thought my. penis was I thought it was I mean, I. think I probably watched too much porn. or something at 16 or 17, but I was. like, "This is not a penis. This is. tiny in comparison to that.". I think we have to get our dicks out. now, all right? I think we have an ending for the show. like 15, and I and I totally bought it. What was it? Was it fear? Was it. I think it was You know, I think it's. fear. It's like, you know, there's a lot.

of other things going on. Obviously, it's like maybe a religious faith, 15%. of that, and maybe a little bit enmeshed. is the term they use where you're you. know, too close to one parent, and that. maybe stops you from forming bonds with. with other women. So, I was very close. to my mother, and that stops you from. kind of going out and having normal. relationships. In some sense, you know, there's a million different reasons. It. kind of doesn't matter. It's like you. everyone gets there. Mhm. And the perception, I think again in our. society, and the reason to put it in the. book is because you go, "Not.

embarrassed. Give a fuck." I like very. happily talk about it, and you go, "Don't get too caught up in the reasons. Uh think about now. Think about what. matters." I think you know, that school. of therapy, the Freudian analysis that's. all about why that happened. I don't. give a [ __ ] What are we going to do. about it? I like CBT and NLP more because it's. more like, "Yeah, what are we going to. do though? What are we doing now? What. are we doing today?" NLP? Neuro-linguistic programming? Yeah, Peter Jones was talking to me a. lot about this one when we were having. our breaks in Dragon's Den, and.

what role has NLP played in your life? What has it done for you? And for those. that don't know, including me, what is. it? Um neuro-linguistic programming is like. a I suppose it came out of the um. West Coast human potential movement of. the '70s. It's a sort of almost like a. belief structure of for life. Uh and. it's been you I think it's been used. nefariously a fair bit. You can find. some negative stuff on it online. I. happened to, when I was working for. Shell, there was a budget for training. And obviously, I'm not working on an oil.

rig. I was like, "Okay, well, I'll just. I I'll I'll go on an NLP course." It's. like this kind of. slightly hippyish thing for a big oil. corporation to send you on. And the idea. of it is the map is not the territory. It's like the fundamental questions in. life are going, "But your experience of. the world is not the same as everyone. else's.". And how you see things within the map. inside your mind is how the world is for. you. And you know, so these premises of. like the quality of your communication. is the quality of your life.

Which made sense to me. Everything about. it, I read this kind of I was taught by. this guy called Ian McDermott. And. everything I he said, like for you know, 20 days on this course, I just went, "I. agree with all of this.". I I it it everything felt right to me. about that. It felt like, "Okay, they've. someone's given this a lot of thought. and we're all standing on the shoulders. of giants. We you know, and this seems. like a pretty good way to. um to think about life. Um so, the idea that the map is not the. territory, the idea that you go what you. imagine how things are, you could.

imagine it a different way. It's very. difficult to change how you think about. the world. Very difficult. But it's so. much easier than changing the world. The map is not the territory. So, you imagine the world, right? Yeah. You imagine. um. London. Yeah. And the size of London and what it is. What you have in your head isn't the. real thing. Mhm. It's your perception of it. It's your. perception of how things are in this. room is not the same is not the same as. my perception of how they are in this.

room. Um so, it it's it's it's different for. everyone. Mhm. The the idea and the the analogy being. there's a map that's 2D and it tells. you, right, that's Britain, that's. France. You have an idea of what Britain looks. like from above. It's got fuck-all to do with reality. Mhm. No one's ever seen it from that angle. So, you you know, those lines don't. exist. Those lines are man-made. The the borders aren't real. And how does that help you in in life? Well, I think it's the idea of going, look, you can change the way that you.

think about things. So, I was thinking. about things in I can do I can do these. this narrow bandwidth of things. My. belief system, the assumptions I'd made. about life were well, you can get a job. and you can work for someone and after. you get a job and you work for 40 years, you get a pension and when you get the. pension. Mhm. I was on a conveyor belt. Sure. And suddenly I went, I could believe anything. I could believe that I could do. anything. I could believe that I could be the guy. on the TV show. telling jokes. And you can. What you believe dictates.

your life. You'll you'll be the barrier. You'll be the thing that stops you. No one else. You know, people spend a. lot of time worrying about other people. Oh, what if they don't help me? What if. they don't you're going to be the thing. that holds you back. You said that that the best goals are. those without like the destination. Right? The the I mean listen, it's the the the. listen, this is very self-helpy chat, right? So we are legally obliged to say. at some point, it's the journey not the. destination. We have to say that, but.

getting there isn't half the fun, it's. all the fun. So what's next for you? Okay, well, I have plans. I always have. plans. But I have quite grand plans. If you if you say now that you want to. make a billion dollars, I'm going to. delete this episode. Uh I'm trying to get better at comedy. I've been sort of going about 20 years. and I'm trying to change up my style a. little bit. So I do this is inside. baseball people. You can switch off now. if you're not interested in comedy. So I. do one-liners. I everything's a.

fastball, right? And I do sort of three. a minute on stage and I try and get. people into a state where they're. they can't breathe, where they're. laughing so much, where they're. a a joyful. experience where they can't remember. anything I said, but they remember how I. made them feel. And I made them feel so. happy. That's what I want to do. Okay. I'm trying to change that a little bit. I'm trying to change it up. So I'm doing. I'm trying to write routines between. sort of 7 and 12 minutes long, trying to. write longer pieces with a bit more to. them. So I'm trying to sort of find a. it's been really interesting with the.

book and with coming on podcasts like. this of like finding a different voice. So going like I'm a public figure. I've. been on TV for 20 years, pretty famous. I've never spoken like this before, right? So we've just done a couple of podcasts. recently where I'm chatting to people as. I am and you go, okay, so that's there's. a serious side to me and then there's a. a funny side to me. People are nuanced. and complicated and great. And I'm. trying to bring a little bit of who I am. to the stage now. I'm trying to. reveal a little bit more about me. and that's a very exciting.

prospect and so writing a new show. So. I'm sort of halfway through a tour. and I kind of pushed the [ __ ] it button. and recorded a special that's going to. come out at Christmas. And I've written. new stuff. Why? go out and do new stuff. Why? It's exciting. It's It's like the the. trying new stuff, doing new things, trying trying to get. people to a different state. So, it's a little bit. for the for the adulation of it cuz you. kind of go, "Well, I want it to be a better experience for.

the audience. But also, I want more applause breaks. I. want it to be a um. a higher volume laugh." You know, there's a there's a. It's difficult to describe, but there's. like there's there's a laugh that you go. everyone in the room laughed, bang, but. then it's gone. And then get them again, bang, and then and then it's gone. You. want a rolling. laughter. You want to You know, I want. to get better. I want to get better. I've seen people. that are better than me on stage with. worse material. With with worse jokes. He goes, "So, you.

want to get better as a performer and. you want to get better as a writer." And. it feels like this I feel like I'm at. base camp. I've got the kit. I've got the right. gear and I'm I'm on the mountain, but we haven't got anywhere near the. summit. And that's for me tremendously. exciting as a guy in his late 40s to go, "Ah, we're just starting." Most of the. great comics that I love did their best. work in their 50s. Inside your book in the front cover. Mhm. and this is my um last question for you.

It says. that one of the things the book will. help you understand is the meaning of. life. Pretty profound. I'll do it in five words. Okay. Enjoying the passage of time. That's it. It's enjoying the passage of. time. It's It's. The chances of us being here now. are so small. The chances of us existing it's. it's all you know, if you look at the if. you look at the stats, the it's not just.

our parents had to get together at that. moment, but their parent, their parent, their parent, their parent going back a. billion years as we climbed out of a. soup. The chances of this happening are. incalculable. And yet we're here. And we have this shot, and we're. breathing, and we're healthy, and we're. This is incredible. Enjoying the passage of time is about. It's about all I got, and it's enough. Thank you.

Um I I found your, you know, your book. incredibly refreshing for so many. reasons. Because it was laced with. humor, but because it was so. inclusively written. as a self and so relatable as a. I kind of felt like it was low-hanging. fruit, the self-help thing, because you. go, "Well, I can't tell those amazing, but he does not know his way around a. dick joke.". And you know, and and Jordan Peterson, great 21 rules for life, but it's like. it's quite pitchy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's difficult. You know, so you go, "Actually, sugaring.

the pill and going, 'Look, there's this. great, interesting world out there, and. it I think this is like a I think this. book is a gateway drug. I think this is marijuana. This is like. some really mellow. weed, and then it'll lead you in a. different direction.' And like, maybe, 'Okay, well, I need to read some more. stuff by him, or I need to investigate. that, or that sounds interesting.'". And the honesty you start the book with, even confronting the fact that there's a. stigma to writing self-help books, it. immediately builds trust very early that. you're not going to [ __ ] me, and. you're not going to try and be anybody.

you're not in this book. And so, I I as. I as I listened into the audiobook and. the chapters passed, you'd established. this really high degree of trust with me. because. you kind of had pointed at the elephant. in the room so early. It's it's it's interesting that thing of. like the the experience you had as well. about the inner critic. Yeah. Where. you engaged with the book Yeah. to a to. a degree where you went, "Is that true? Is that a You know, it's a it's it's an. interesting thing to be able to give. someone I haven't met. Mhm. something that is essentially very tough. love.

Yeah, I know. It was And the other thing that was even. tougher love was at one point you say. that I am the person I am with when no. one's watching. And at that exact moment. as I'm in my boxer shorts with the pot. noodle like spilled on my belly and it's. like 2:00 a.m. in the morning. I'm. thinking this is who the [ __ ] I am. Yeah. I I like I swear I feel I feel like I. sat up in the bed and was like. I love I love that thing though of going. like if you're listening to this in the. car. Yeah. and you just threw a beer can. out the window. You go yeah, that's who you are. embarrassing thing. And that's not terrible. You just have.

to be okay with that. It's a good it's I. think honesty is one of the great. superpowers of comedians because. everything's built on that level of like. people aren't going to get the joke if. it's not honest. Yeah, yeah. It but it's it that that bedrock of like. acceptance is a great first step. Look, you are where you are. It's not where. you're going to end up. Mhm. And you know, I think I I get the. feeling a lot of people listening to. this podcast are looking for something. They're looking for a kind of a a steer. And it's it's you know, it's there's. going to be movement. You're going to. you're going in the right direction.

Just the desire to get there is enough. to get you started. Thank you. It's I'm so incredibly happy. you wrote this book cuz it also showed. me as someone I've watched on TV since I. was a child. I've I've been around a long time, baby. I know. So, it's also surreal meeting. you because as I said you know, one of. you one of the people that I sat there. in my house in Plymouth that [ __ ]. place that you described earlier. Yeah. Um and I I I watched you growing up and. I knew one side of you. I knew the the. quick jokes. I. Yeah. Do you remember the sketch you did where. you say you come up on stage and you. say, "I'm going to do as many [ __ ]. one-liners as I can." And you just.

hammer them all out. And reading this. book and also meeting you today is. exactly what you've described as your. kind of ambition. I've come to learn A. how unbelievably [ __ ] smart you are. I didn't actually know you'd gone to. Cambridge until I read about it. Um. B how um multifaceted you are as a sort. of philosophical thinker. And C your incredible ability to weave. that all together into. shine lights on really important truths. in society. And that's why when you told. me that your ambition going forward is. to bring a bit more.

content, we'll say, and a little bit. more probably profound meaning and I. don't know I. to to to your to your comedy. You know what it is? I saw Chappelle the. other week. Really, yeah. I shock people. Yeah. And he disturbs people. Yeah. And what I need to do is disturb people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you have all the everything. it takes to do that because you really. are a genius in your own right. So. You're way too kind. But thank you. It's. been a. pleasure. Now I have to write a question.

for the next. Yes, you have to write a question. So. all of our guests write me a question. Yes. Okay, well, what do we do first? Do I. get the question first? I'm going to ask you the question first. So all of our guests leave a question in. the diary as they leave and they don't. actually know who they're leaving the. question for, which is interesting. Right. We had. Patrice Evra who's a Manchester United. football legend. Okay. Is this Is be about the offside. rule? Is this going to catch me out? It's not. Okay. In fact, interestingly, this is a. question which changed his life when his. his partner asked him this question one. day.

and it. disturbed, troubled, and caused a sense. of introspection that made him. really really consider this seriously. and that changed his life. That was the. catalyst. So when I said to him to write. a question, I looked down at what he'd. written and it was the question he. described on this podcast. So listeners. of last week's episode will know. will know this question. Okay. The question is. are you happy? Yeah.

It's a great question. Yes. It is a really great question. It's really good. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful and I think, you know, um. that thing I said earlier about like be. lucky. I had a friend a friend's father. when I was a kid who would always say be. lucky. And I remember thinking it was. ridiculous because you can't be lucky. But that you know from the. the German luck is happy. Be happy. I think it's a it's a powerful.

thing to aspire to. You know enjoying the passage of time is. my answer for the meaning of life but to. be happy is everything. And I think you. are responsible for your happiness. You know. objectivism and Ayn Rand get given a. hard time I think because I think people. have conflated pleasure and happiness. and I think those guys are just. hedonistic fools but you being happy is. better for the world. You know when you're on a plane and it's. going down and the oxygen masks come you.

have to grab your mask first or you're. no good for anyone else. You being happy makes the people around. you happier better for your friends. better for your family better for the. world. It's a great question. Weirdly my like one of my ex my. ex-girlfriend asked me that question one. day. and I felt really defensive and like she. had like really vulnerable when she. asked me it. And I thought I thought I was happy and. I still think I was in that moment but. there's something about that question. which really strips you to your essence.

and like I think it's it's very nicely. framed as well. I like the way you asked. it and I like the silence around it. Because it's often that thing of like. conversation is the the the pace is a. bit it's too quick with filling. silences. That's actually something you kind of. sit with. Am I happy? You know and listeners it's almost. impossible that you won't have answered. that question. And if you're not know that that's okay. Because it's going to change.

And you know. happiness I think is about like that. it's the base state isn't it? It's that. thing of you know what's your base. state? What's what's going on with you? Are you a happy person generally? Are. you able to. deal with the stimulus of life and still. maintain? I suppose I need to put a question in. here. to write a question. Okay. Thank you. Please excuse my terrible penmanship. Do. we do the question on air or do we do. after? I'm going to come in and give you the.

book and then you you scribble the. question. Thank you so much, Jay. My pleasure.