Jamie Carragher: The Untold Story of Liverpool Legend That Pushed Himself Too Far | E206

I couldn't get it out my mind I had to. get hold of a psychologist. [Music]. can't go on. Jamie carragher is a Liverpool stalwart. 730 odd appearances it's never going to. be another Jimmy character he's a winner. he will you know. it's just ridiculous I'm no huge Ronaldo. fan I think that's pretty obvious it's. sad for him the ways people are speaking. about Messi towards the end of his. career and Ronaldo and it's completely. different it's almost like he feels like. he's not racism I've got so much.

admiration for him for his mental. strength to be able to withstand fresh. air criticism and I saw too many players. never recover from that I knew from the. first time I played football for me. winning was all that mattered if you say. to me what do I miss most of being a. professional footballer it's women. I'd rather cheat and win than not win. when Jaime loses a game is he different. that punish myself when I didn't perform. well and I regret that but absorbs that. thing of oh my God. I was just driving myself mad when I was.

at my absolute Peak and best. that's when I needed more help the. feeling your stomach is that bad you. just you zombie there I always remember. and the only time I've ever did this in. my whole career. much of your success has been a result. of a winning mentality in some of the. toughest moments where does that come. from the reason why I've become the. player I have I think it's. before this episode starts I have a.

small favor to ask from you two months. ago 74 of people that watch this channel. didn't subscribe we're now down to 69 my. goal is 50 so if you've ever liked any. of the videos we've posted if you like. this channel can you do me a quick favor. and hit the Subscribe button it helps. this channel more than you know and the. bigger the channel gets as you've seen. the bigger the guests get thank you and. enjoy this episode. [Music]. Jamie when I.

start this podcast I usually start with. people's childhoods but as I was reading. through your story I think this is the. first time I'm going to start before the. person was even born. because I I read that. there was a possibility that you weren't. even going to be born because of a I. guess a misdiagnosis that your mother. was giving about you. can you take me back to that story yeah. that was uh. would have been about let's say would it. be in about 1977 obviously 78 I was born.

and I mean mum has had two miscarriages. before me. and then. when I it will she feel pregnant with me. did the doctors nurses didn't know what. was wrong with the new something was. wrong and initially they were saying. that we think your child has got Spina. bifter and I think. well I'm saying it in those days maybe I.

don't know if it's the same now there's. a chance you could terminate the. pregnancy if the if the baby was. whatever in order. and my mom was I think was given that. option and she my mom's my mom's very. holy things the right way that probably. at that stage in the early 20s she would. be going to church every day. she still goes every Sunday now. so here thing was not with the way she. says to me was. if our Lord wants me to have.

a baby who's got Spina bifter or maybe. something else that's that's what's. being decided for me that's fine it's my. child I love that child. and. what I find. fascinating when you think of sort of. today. is that. the closer it got to the me being born. it wasn't Spina bifter but they still. knew something wasn't right. and it wasn't until.

I was born that I had basically my. insides were on the outside. so I've I've uh gastro's gastroskitas. it's called the condition now I've got a. big scar right across my stomach I mean. if if someone has that condition today. and plenty of babies do it's a really. small scar. but the the thing that I think is. fascinating or just makes me think wow. on my mum's side is the fact that as. soon as I was born I was rushed away. straight away to Alder hay children's.

hospital hospital which is still going. strong today in Liverpool and because of. what I've gone to achieve I've got a. real link with the hospital. and. uh through our charity we actually. funded the uh the ward that looks after. babies who have oh really what I had uh. but. I get pushed away. to children's hospital and I mean mum. doesn't know anything. there's no phones there's no she's still.

in the Zachary Hospital. obviously I've got a problem straight up. to older hey my dad go straight there. but again there's no the technology. isn't like that and I just think how. long it must have been before one we mum. knew I was all right what I had how. could it have to go you know you aren't. quite fathom that when you think about. today and how quickly even get in touch. with with different people so uh I just. think about what was going through my. mum's behind there for that sort of the. next hour or two until you know she. probably found out everything was okay.

your knowledge of that story and that. experience has that. left a lasting impact or impression on. you in terms of the decision your mum. made your mum made or being whisked away. or the operation or having this guy or. anything like that has that left any. sort of impression on you at all. yes. all about me more I would say you know. to to. have had two miscarriages to have that. going through your third pregnancy to. think you could lose the baby the no one.

can quite give you a definitive answer. about what's going on with you know this. child in your stomach and then to. to not know straight away I just I just. I only know of now and when people have. kids and I've had my own kids and. everything's so documented isn't it. whether it's you know the first picture. on Instagram you're there with the the. baby when the baby's born. I I wasn't actually maybe we can get to. that later I wasn't there for my uh. firstborn. and that's something I do regret but I.

just think about how. my mom must have felt and and sort of me. look at my mom because I've been very. lucky the life I know leads the. experience about I've I've had. you know it's it's not there if anyone. doesn't make you know saying he says no. longer with me dad of course but yeah. for me want to sort of make that. decision and uh I'm still here today. what about your dad what what um talk to. me about him and his character and what. impact that had on you before the age of. 10.

it's a real big character yeah he's you. know he's. he'll be in the pope he'll have a debate. he'll get up and sing he'll he'll have. an argument with someone he's like a. real Larger than Life sort of character. who did you care about impressing the. most just not even in the context of. your parents but just who were you. trying to impress when you were young. because for me you know it might have. been my older brothers it could have. been my dad it could have been you know. a teacher who are you trying to impress.

I mean the obvious wants to save me that. because he was the one who was always. there in terms of he talked about. football or like yeah. I mean mum never watched him play. football okay. I mean memo must have watched me play. five times in my life and that's nothing. to do with not being proud of me or not. being able I know it's not the done. thing now but it was always the case of. my dad took us the football and stayed. at all you know and and did what we. associate with women things and now. obviously.

that type of comment or then thought. certainly back then be classed as like. sexist now and rightly so but that was. just the way it was it wasn't I don't. think my mum was. sort of badgered me dad to go to the. football she always just felt well okay. that's your thing to take them to the. football whether to be going to watch. everything as young kids or you know. play me games for. you know amateur teams little boys and I. want to start on that journey and when. you when he took you to football did he. have high standards and expectations.

for you when you were playing. yes but I think that came not because he. was so desperate for me to be a. footballer I think that became because I. think he knew pretty early on. I had something. you know my dad had played football he's. had a. watched football my dad was a massive. football fan so he he done everything he. could do in football in terms of played. amateur football. managed amateur teams went to what you.

have it at home and away so he was just. he was obsessed with football. so from a young age I think he was quite. tough for me a couple of times I'd Stand. Out only because he knew the standards I. could get to I'm one of those times is. like a story I put in my book. and I think sometimes with me Dad. listens back I think he. I think he doesn't like me to say the. story because I think he looks back at. it and thinks oh I wish I hadn't done. that but I've got no problem with it you. know I think it's part of my life past. my story that basically I was seven. years of age.

and I didn't want to play in a game it. was that cold it was freezing it was. Hailstone and I got tackled and I. pretended that was a hair crying and. come off buddy me Dad and I'm the same. we we couldn't suffer bluffers or. phonies we'd say you know that's. hypothetic and he knew I was putting it. on. unless you say it was the last time I. did. and I read that part in your Memoir yeah. in your Memoir it says there was some. reigning football boots when you got. home yeah maybe there's a little bit of.

artistic license there with the uh the. guy who wrote it but. no I think it was that and I think. throughout my football career. not much I'm talking about the big thing. for me and the big thing for me that I. want to pass on to my son. is having character. after me will will. take you to places that you don't think. are possible if you've got that. personality mental strength.

character I think that overrides a lot. of things that's really why I'm asking. these questions because I could see. throughout your career that much of your. success has been a result of a winning. mentality and character in some of the. toughest moments and that's not the case. with all the footballers that I've. spoken to that's just the case with some. of them even when I sat with Peter. Crouch she referenced you as being. um so set on winning and so obsessed. with winning that you didn't even that. he didn't think you were ever enjoying. it and so I'm trying to figure out and.

you smile when I say that because you. you know it's true I've read you I've. heard you say that subsequently but um. where where does that come from where. does that character and that obsession. with victory at all costs to the point. that you cause suffering in yourself. where does that come from. foreign. something like that maybe you know you. speak to a lot of probably. more people who give you that handset.

than I do and maybe have a better. insight into it to me in some ways now. I'm not quite sure. but I knew from the first time I played. football. for me winning was all that mattered and. if you say to me what do I miss most of. being a professional footballer it's. winning. it's not the taken past not the training. a lot of people always say this I. footballers say this all the time I miss. the dressing room I don't miss the. dressing room. I missed the dressing room after the. game and we win that life you've done.

something together. and I listened to crouchie's podcast. because I've seen it pop up somewhere I. think it was made online or some piece. of crowd said Stephen Gerard and Jamie. carragher race off players after 15 I. thought I better listen to this one uh. but. what Peter Crouch said Is Right. and he's probably looking at me a little. bit dumbfounds I can't understand that. but I can't understand him. for me Bill shankly said football is a.

matter of life and death and. I don't think he meant that I think that. was obviously tongue and cheek at the. time and no football club knows that. statement. is not true more than Liverpool Football. Club. but it's very close to being true. that's the way I see it that's football. for me. is a way of life and and winning is all. that matters and for me when I played. I'd rather cheat and win. than not win and uh I don't ever be any.

different. and that's why I think football is. taking me to places in my life. that almost means a tear to me I but. it's always taking me to places where. I'm like I don't feel like I'm ever. gonna get over it. you know results or something hasn't. gone well. you mentioned that that post-match. feeling is is the best and potentially. the feeling you missed but I've also. heard you describe it as relief you know. and that's um that's an interesting. thing because people would think the. post-match victory feeling would be.

Euphoria and Elation but for you to. describe it as relief is a. curious word. because I knew how bad I'd feel if we. didn't win or they hadn't gone well it. was almost relief that I'm not going to. feel like that. for the next two or three days because I. would I think I punished myself a little. bit when I didn't perform well or we. didn't win. and I regret that but I don't know if I. could have done anything different. it was what it was me you know what I. spoke to a site at one stage I spoke to.

I had to I had to. I wasn't asked to I had to get hold of a. psychologist sport psychologist that. were new because. what I was doing to myself was. I was just driving myself mad really. with the standards I was expecting of. myself and this I must say was not when. I was not playing well in shorter. conference this one was when I was at my. absolute Peak and best. that's when I needed more help. because I got to a stage where I felt I. couldn't make a mistake. if I if if I didn't play well I thought.

we're gonna lose. yeah because I wasn't Daft I was playing. at my best I was a huge part of the team. and there's lots of other great players. around there of course but I knew I was. a huge influence in the Rafa beneath his. area era. and I felt I'd go into big games. thinking if I don't play well today I'm. not going to win. and. if I made a mistake and I always. remember the mistake I made it was aware. that Atletico Madrid.

Champions League group game will win a. one nil but under pressure constantly. and I'm I'm playing really well I'm in. control. that was me and my elements away from. home in Europe. for Liverpool trying to get that clean. she's organized and talking to everyone. and a longboard and he scored. and in the airport on the way home. she's like this can't go on. uh this has got to stop you know that. what I'm actually doing to myself I've. played great I've made a little mistake.

you know they've capitalized on it. but you can put yourself through that. what was the symptoms that you were. confronting in that moment why what. couldn't carry on so you had made that. mistake you're in the airport you're on. the plane whatever. what is the what's happening I couldn't. get it out my mind I couldn't I got like. shoot two nights when I was sleeping. I mean you want to say not to sleep and. I get a couple of hours I'll be like. constantly on my mind and wake up it was. the first thing to think about. and I was just like.

what am I doing to myself but how would. you stop it but but the fascinating. thing was. when I spoke to the sports psychologist. that guy called Bill Bez we kind of knew. him from. the England squad. speaking to it and then it got to the. stage where I spoke to him probably two. or three times a season. almost like I reflect and you know. what's gone on. I couldn't change we actually got to the. bottom of actually this is what Tamika. knew who you are. this is the drive to sort of if you if.

you did probably dismiss mistakes or. were not too bothered I'll be I'll be. fine next week. that wouldn't make I wouldn't make you. who you are and. I could still never Shake It Off I could. I couldn't but I almost by speaking to. him it made me understand and accept. that's what it was so I still went. through turmoil if I didn't play well. if I made a mistake I always wonder if. that was.

like a byproduct of being a local player. I always think what would I have been. like about a plate for Aston Villa or. Tottenham you know I I didn't know that. many people you know I felt like you. were playing for. the club of the supporters of your. family and friends really if you know. did you ever feel anxiety in those. moments the feeling of anxiety so when. something is plaguing you so much that. you almost feel that kind of sense of. nervous energy that keeps you up at. night and you feel it in your stomach no. it was never anxiety I would say anger.

and I want to put this rice it's like. I didn't even want to sleep when I get. to train in the next day did that come. out in your home life because it's hard. not to take that home with you yeah I. think it will have time. yeah. yeah 100 percent. I remember something came up. a year or two ago. on here on Twitter about. a group of players or a certain player. or maybe being a manager went out. another meal.

or a few drinks after they'd lost. and with this big debate on uh on. Twitter well why shouldn't you know some. fannular fans are like he shouldn't be. like they shouldn't go out and there was. this few big debates and I think Gary. lineke mentioned something that I've. never not. chain I've never changed my plans on the. back of the results. okay that that sounds nice I thought it. was unbelievable I would change plans. every single week if that game didn't go. well. so that's where it was affected my home.

life so in terms of organizing a night. owls going for a meal with friends. whatever it may be. I couldn't I couldn't show my face if. we'd have lost and I played poorly not a. chance and I couldn't believe that some. players. could could just carry on with the life. I'd be a bit like oh no you no you. because the feeling your stomach is that. bad you just you don't even want to be. he's gonna be there he's gonna be. whipped people you don't speak you know. that's that's what animal she got me and. I go back to that you know would it have.

been different at another club I would. never wanted to play for another club. but that is the one thing I do think. about would it have resulted some. performances affected me differently. you come home after a you know. losing a game or something. you've got your family there your kids. run up hey. I mean to be fair me kids were quite. Young when I was still playing. but there was one game that stands out. when I couldn't get out of something I. was opening a restaurant I opened a.

restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago. called Cathy Sports England. in Liverpool. and the two times we opened. those two games I didn't play well. and in my head before the game I'm. thinking I've got to play well in this. game because people will think of it. don't play well I've got my mind. somewhere else and I was probably too. focused on the game in some ways and. then I had to go and almost open the. restaurants and there was people here. I remember the second one it was like no.

I went I was there 20 minutes I was like. I've got to go if I spoke to Nicola. which I might have done but I won't tell. you before this I asked the question and. I said when Jamie loses the game is he. different and what's he like what would. she have said to me. hundred percent yeah. 100 what you said you reckon. he's not there. when I'm talking to him I think she'd. probably say that. maybe now at different times but I would. be I'll be in a chance.

I'd just be sort of Daydream is people. will be speaking to me. and. it's probably best just to leave me. alone and not. try and get my mind off because. I couldn't. even if I if it did get my mind off I. know I'd go back to it. and you're talking about going home. I always remember one time when I said I. was in a trance where I was with the. players so I always remember. we were playing a game against Evan. which for me is the biggest game.

I had a nightmare. in the game and we were going for a meal. afterwards with the team like an. official not a sort of few drinks it was. it was to to refuel basically this game. is an early morning kickoff we had a. Champions League game on the Tuesday. night in in Eindhoven. foreign. and we've gone to the center of. Liverpool for a meal just to make sure. eating the right food. and I remember just staring. just couldn't stop I was just I wasn't. even eating just just staring.

and next I get a text message. Stevie Jared. it's just like he's there. he's gone don't worry about it it's gone. finished forget about you know just. you've got the time but I was just I. he could just see everyone was. devastated. but for me I just no I'm not trying to. make out that I cared more than anybody. else because everyone's got their own. ways of dealing with things but. I. yeah it was a yeah it was.

it's a huge part of my life football it. always has been always will be I think. I'll always be affected by football. results. when I went that's when I was playing as. an Everton fan as a Liverpool fan right. now. football results will affect me it. sounds painful sounds like suffering. doesn't sound like well when you win I. can assure you I make sure I I I enjoy. them I know afterwards I said before. that it was relief but you had that. moment of sort of Joy the reason it was.

difficult to enjoy. and why I'm probably different to a. Peter Crouch or certain players who came. in as a I think they'd come in from. clubs where they played once a week and. if they played well it was like I don't. need somebody to that game I'm gonna be. off for two or three days but as we have. a game Tuesday. Champions League or a cup game. and they'll be ready to enjoy that right. bang we're back on it now it was almost. like you're just on this train and you. nothing's getting in the way nothing's. not Unstoppable I can assure you it. wasn't the whole Doom and Gloom I loved.

it and so many nights and times and. experiences but I do wish I was a little. bit kinder to myself on the back of a. poor performance or a defeat I mean does. what I keep thinking about one standing. out. we we we won the FA Cup Final in 2006. personally out of the great season we'd. we kept 33 clean sheets which was one. away from a record which was which was. obviously a lot. we played the Cup Final I scored their. own goal I didn't play well Stevie Jack.

had wins the final and we go on the open. bus tour. around Liverpool so I've had a great. season but not had a great last game. and my son's on the bus with me and I go. on the top of the bus to start with. but you're on the bus for maybe three or. four hours. within an hour I was downstairs I just. sat there thinking oh. it didn't go well I didn't do that you. know I didn't do and I was thinking now. when I look I'm embarrassed I'm like. what are you doing it was one game. you've had an unbelievable season the. team have we won the FA Cup we finished. the season with a trophy.

but I couldn't it was almost like I was. up there acting because I didn't feel. like celebrating but we won the cup. you know just because I hadn't I I'd. made a mistake hadn't played. particularly well. I know most players will be able to go. I've had a great season there's only one. game we won. I found it tough people that have that. Winner's mindset they um as you kind of. alluded to a second ago they often. struggled to understand those that don't. to relate to them and they often have a. lot of friction with the people that.

don't have the Winner's mindset because. when you see the world and that way I. saw it a lot in um Michael Jordan's. documentary Last Dance brilliant wasn't. that yeah amazing I think I've got a. poster upstairs book after I watched it. but um he had that mindset where he was. you could see he would like pick on. certain people who who wouldn't meet him. at his level did you ever find yourself. and Stevie doing that where if someone. came into the dressing room and they and. they weren't at that level you would you. would either you'd force them out or. you'd I mean that's kind of what Peter. Crouch was alluding to right that he was.

kind of saying that you two would be. protecting the bar yeah I mean. I think what what happens is I think. what Peter was trying to mention which I. think is a little bit unfair the way he. described it was that when a new player. came in. I think. me and Steve were fans we ain't just. players we were fans it was like oh God. I hope he's good you know like a fan was. out this new Fella's good and when. you're coming after the first training. session it'd be more than a joke oh God. this doesn't look good does it or you. know what I mean that type of thing.

about God because I hope this goes well. uh but I was Stevie. Stevie was different to me and I was. very vocal very emotional. Stevie's maybe body language on the. picture times will be questioned if you. know he wasn't happy with somebody he. might turn away. you know whereas I'd be. remonstrating screaming shouting you. know and not in terms of someone hadn't. played Paul poorly but might have been. more in terms of organization someone. doing the job for the team where are you.

where you need to be I always felt like. I was. the coach of the team in some ways and. because I played a center-back and I. could you know see the whole team in. front of me yeah but we would be on top. of people but I don't I wouldn't like. that to come across in like a a bullion. way or you're trying to you know keep. people down here we loved. because you wanted to win that was all. that matter it wasn't about securing. your place or making sure I was. protected in any way it was that thing.

of like. it's Liverpool it. the big clubs. it's not enough to play Ford man I know. some people think I played for this club. and it's on your CV and it's a great. achievement to get to a Liverpool or. United Chelsea City. but it's not enough to play for and. you've got to win the whole existence of. those clubs about winning if they're not. winning there's no point. you know so that was my thing my drive. at Liverpool was to win every single day. when Jared Julia came in came in as a.

managers Julia so Julia Gerard we'll. just call him Gerard Julia. um when he arrived at uh Liverpool in I. think it was 1986 1998 1998 he came into. the the club. um. the place took to him at faster than I. read because he one of the key decisions. he made was around Paul lince. you see the players talk to him yeah and. no I think he found it difficult to. start with really I think it was a a big. split in the camp. in that the players would come before.

that with Roy Evans and Jared Huli came. in he was new to it. and. yeah I think it was tough for him enough. for this season. yeah did that turn at some point did he. win the trust of the players yeah I mean. yeah he put Paul in great. fella I get on great with paulins great. player as well. didn't have the career that Liverpool. he's had maybe at other clubs. and I think gerardi just wanted to make. a fresh start and he wanted to I think. most a lot of managers do it.

the the take on. you know the uh the big guy if you like. and it was certainly that he was I think. he was maybe England's captain or Vice. Captain at the time. but he wanted a completely. revolutionized Liverpool and completely. changer and yeah he had a Wedgewood with. paulins and the thing was not about him. having weeds as such but also the fact. that he didn't sort of back down he. really held his own he had a strong. argument in the team meeting I think wow.

we just stood up to probably one of the. best Midfield players of his generation. what was that strong argument in the. team meeting it was it was over. Poland's question what we're doing in. training as senior Pros do at times you. know we're trying to get it right why. are we doing this why are we doing that. and I think General and Julia saw this. has this opportunity to sort of stand. his authority it was almost like I would. imagine he was glad. paulins had said it and it was what it. was Poland's in some ways and I don't. think the message was for Pauline. because I think he was always going to.

get rid of NC I think the message was. the rest of us. you know don't don't try and take me on. this is what we're going to do publicly. in front of in the team meeting yeah. told Paul yeah basically but not you. wouldn't be at this club anymore but he. questioned his desire in a game uh. Anthony fairpoints was probably one of. the bravest footballers you'd say but in. a particular game against Manchester. United. we'd lost it 2-1 and we'd lost two goals. in the last minute and I think it was a.

very so defeat for everyone. so I think everyone was a little bit. emotional about it. and because he had jumped up and said. something he just went straight back and. said he wasn't happy that he'd come off. he shouldn't have come off my captain. should come off on a stretcher from Old. Trafford and it was it was interesting. with Jared Julia in that. we we had him the first foreign manager. and all of a sudden people would. associate him with this flee football. and being maybe a bit nice but that was.

that was what the Liverpool team was. before General Juliet came he completely. went the other way and was once a big. strong powerful player's aggression and. that's why me and him are such a great. relationship because I was such a. competitor maybe he didn't have the. quality that some of the players had in. the Roy Evans team if you're liking some. of the football they played was. outstanding. but he just wanted people who would die. for that [ __ ] because I I read that part. of the reason why his reign as manager. sort of came to an end was because he. made some bad signings and he was.

he didn't really inquire enough about. the players that he was signing's. character and their personality and so. and I was just so compelled by that idea. that that's one of the most important. things when you're building teams is. finding people that have the same like. mentality and character versus just. great sort of technical players I think. about the same in business like I'm. always considering how someone will. um support our culture make our culture. better raise the bar in terms of like. that mentality versus just being able to.

do [ __ ] a thousand kick-ups or. whatever and loads of skills yeah I I. think you do need the same mentality to. play for Liverpool what does that mean. and the other big clubs. to be able to withstand pressure. criticism. that comes your way so often I saw a lot. of Liverpool players who would start. really well. and it wouldn't it wouldn't make me. think we've got a great player here I'd. always think. let's see a couple of months down the. line because I knew what was coming.

because every player goes through a few. by games he gets criticism whatever it. may be and I saw too many players never. recover from that. and that that tells me now for me the. top level football is mentality it was. do you have that personality character. to get you through. those tough moments and come back and. fight back and not give in can you teach. that I don't know you tell me what do. you think.

um I tend to believe that it comes from. ex experience I think resilience and. that sort of character those character. traits come from being knocked down. loads of time so when the tenth failure. or knockdown comes or the tenth moment. of hardship comes you're more equipped. to deal with it. um so players that haven't been through. the tougher you know challenges in their. life maybe in their personal life maybe. where they come from don't have that. well it's interesting we're doing this.

uh this afternoon and this morning. someone in front of the operation. yes indeed yeah right so he's going for. the operation he's a professional. footballer. and. painfully haven't been able to probably. sleep about it thinking about it you. know just. want to do as much as you can you know. to help them because it's your son. but the thing I keep jumping home to him. and I keep saying it almost every day. we're not using this as an excuse. this is not going in the way.

it's like this happened is it okay boom. we're going again it's like. this I know for a lot of people or. players or young players or whatever it. may be. would be a hero to come across and. understandably so. but it's not in years to come gonna be. oh I didn't quite do what I wanted. because of that knee up yeah and this. never happened and that it's like no. there's there's going to be lots of. things in his career. as in my career obstacles in the way.

you've got to get over them you've got. to get them all the way or you've got to. deal with it and then keep going. nuttings and that was always my mindset. and that's what I'm trying to put into. my son I'm pretty confident he's got. that mindset of not the structure. nothing getting your way you don't use. anything as an excuse or a reason why. something didn't happen that no excuse. mentality just you keep going nothing. gets not no obstacles in the way. you said earlier on that you might not. have cared as much as you did you might. not have had that that same level of um. sort of excruciating Obsession and and.

care about the results and the outcome. and winning if you'd been at another. club and you were at another club which. is England and you didn't seem to care. as much you said that you remember I I. was quite shocked to read that that. remember the text message that said [ __ ]. it it's only England and. um generally you didn't seem to be as. excruciatingly hard on yourself after. losing for England. as you did with losing for Liverpool. I think that was down to the fact that I. didn't carry the same responsibility.

because I I never really played I was. like a squad player really I wouldn't. Clash myself as patriotic. not at all. can you be patriotic if you're on city. is that is that a word or is there. something I have no idea. I'm actually massively passionate about. my own city. um. maybe that comes from the way we're. brought up in Liverpool. you know the. thing of you feel as if like a lot of.

the country's against you and maybe. that's. some of it's true some people outside. other people think oh that's a chip on. your shoulder but there is that so we. sort of buy into that and that doesn't. mean like. I'm against England as such. but it watching England now in the World. Cup would never take me to a place. emotionally. the way it would if I saw a Liverpool. playing it just wouldn't take me there. it's not like a conscious thing of ugh. I'm not gonna make I'm not gonna be.

happy about this it's just. inside me and and that wasn't just when. I was playing for him that was when I. was a. child I'd be thinking why in England. because they haven't players you know we. almost felt like England was a team from. down south or a London team that's just. the feeling I had and but I think if if. I would have become a Mainstay of the. England team. I think I would have felt that I think I. would have got there and that's me one. disappointment in my football great it's.

the only team in my life from when I. started five years ago I didn't dominate. I'm gonna say dominate was. be a Mainstay of the team be one of the. voices of the team be one of the leaders. because I wasn't good enough. that's a simple fact there's lots of. plays that you've encountered in your. career that didn't reach their potential. you're talking about Reaching Your. Potential doing your best getting to the. getting to the top of your potential a. second ago when you think about why. those players didn't reach their. potential if you had to point out. characteristics or behaviors that led. them to miss their potential what would.

those behaviors be. the traits of losers hmm. I think blaming other people at. different times for their own. poor games mistakes. always looking for excuses I would say. I think I'm I'm pretty honest and I was. as a player and I always remember. when I was a young lady I had a bad game. I keep talking about games. you remember them more yeah but a very.

famous coach it was a huge inspiration. to me was running around. and uh I played a game and played poorly. and I did the ninja after the game. saying it was my fault those goals were. my fault. you know this was the. a coach who was a a real sort of man's. man a legend of Liverpool Football Club. he wasn't the coach then he still used. to come in and walk around the training. ground. and he said don't have to do that again.

he said you don't need to. open yourself up like that he should be. honest with an injection room and see a. manager but he said you know what I mean. somebody's got to be clever and look. after yourself a little bit and you. don't need to. be as honest you think you're doing the. right thing and I think. I knew exactly where he was coming from. I think at times you need to be honest. but I think it was probably a lot of the. times like that you maybe need to. protect yourself a little bit but you're. never hide behind the fact that it was. someone else's fault and again I keep.

going back to me soon because I'm not a. coach or a manager and people say to me. you know could you give something back. but I was trying to give it back to me. soon and things like that don't question. them aren't you don't make excuses don't. blame the manager or if you come in and. say oh the culture the trainer well get. shot out of it don't don't be in the. direction I'm saying oh this isn't good. or that isn't good. quick one from one of our sponsors I've. got a tip for all of you that will make. your virtual meeting experiences I think. 10 times better as some of you may know.

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in my life and I have this laser laser. focused on what I'm putting into my body. it's funny because as you get older you. can start to feel the things you're. putting into your body more and more and. more. um and if I if I put something into my. body especially things like gluten if I. put those things in my body I feel them. tremendously the next day my energy. levels my sleep and everything in. between huel has been probably the most. important partner in my health Journey. because. I've been in the boardrooms I've been to. their offices. tens and tens and tens and tens of times. I've seen how they make their decisions.

on nutrition and I trust it most of my. team that are in this room with me. consume it and get the benefits of it. too so if you haven't already tried your. do so. on the point of questioning the manager. one of the things I read was that Gerald. Julia Julia cuts his bloody name Julia. Julia cool one of the reasons why he. ultimately ended up leaving the club. um was because he started to lose his. authority in the dressing room now Peter. Crouch said to me that. great managers even when they don't know. the right answers pretend they do.

because they know that if they ever get. to a point where the players know that. they're not in control then the. Authority's gone and there was a story I. read about Gerard wholey a. um. picking a team and then going and asking. Jared if it was the correct team. and then Gerard said it's not the. correct team and changed it. this happened in. in spring in 2004 in in the run-up to a. Premier League match way to Manchester. United. Jared Julio picked the team but then. consulted with Gerard whether the.

selection was right who said it wasn't. right and then Julia changed it. I don't I don't it rings a bell I don't. know the specific game if that was the. right game but I think towards the end. of his time. I think the results are going well and. marriages no matter who they are they. will lose confidence and Stevie at that. time was obviously a mega stat and. you're trying to maybe keep people on. side if you're like not that I think the. players were ever offside with with. Gerard Julia but that confidence and.

belief in the manager starts to have. away when results don't go well I. wouldn't say Gerard Healy ever lost. digestion in terms of how we felt about. him. as a man but it was it was a time for. her to come to an end there's no doubt. about that and it's an interesting one. that does a manager lose the dressing. room. yes. he's always lost part of adjustment. because the players who he's not picking. but I think it's when that belief goes.

really but for me. again I think I was different to all the. players because I never played for the. manager. ever. I always play for the club and again. because it was the club I always felt. like I played for the club and the. supporters and I'm not saying that too. Curry favor with the supporters as such. but. no manager bought me. you know I I didn't no one managing. anything as such I mean bro you haven't. given me me Debbie or supposing.

but the managers played me but I never. had that sort of feeling that. we need to win this for the manager. Rafa Benitez comes in next what's the. difference between Gerard Julia and Rafa. Benitez in terms of style because I find. it so compelling that managers can be. great for various different reasons and. we think of management as like a formula. but as I sit here with football players. that I've had seven eight nine managers. they all say that managers are. completely different in their stolen. approach.

yeah raffle was completely different. Jared Julia was a manager. I think Gerard wholey was the type of. guy who could. he could manage an organization didn't. just have to be football I think he. could have been a bank manager he could. have. been a CEO if you're like he organized. people get everyone focused on you know. what do we want to achieve and but the. actual day-to-day stuff of coaching I. thought it wasn't as Forte and I'd sound. strange I don't think he had a huge.

knowledge of the game enough but it. wasn't somebody was going to say. something something to you in a coaching. session or a tactical point that made. you think oh I never did that before or. that's a bit different it wasn't like. that his thing was bringing people. together for a common goal and almost. what I've described them to other people. people say. Clive Woodward the the England rugby. College World Cup winning culture was. probably similar in that now he's had. all the cultures but he's always been. coming up with ideas to create sort of a.

Siege mentality or togetherness whereas. Rapha was a coach he was on that. training pitch every day. and he was a lot colder than Gerard. Julia he was a lot more interested in. the kids the wife you know yourself you. know we speak ask me about my dad or. different things like that was Jared who. Rafa didn't want to get involved in. anything it was just football I mean if. the guy was obsessed with football Raffa. was just like he was probably above me. somewhere but it was different but it. doesn't.

I I mean I'll be honest with you when we. describe managers. like the one who come a couple after was. Roy Hodgson and it didn't go. particularly well but we point it. when a new manager comes in. I want to get whatever I can from. so it may not work for Liverpool I may. not like. X but I might like lion's head I'm sorry. so. you're always going to be a sponge and. taking things in and learning things and. I think when John Julia came in I was a.

bit Power Player. and then became a fully fledged member. of Liverpool's first 11 for the next. five years and then Rafa came in. and then we again stepped up a level to. become the Vice Captain and one of the. leaders in the team one of the best. players in the team. so I always think I got the most. from these these other managers coming. in you know certainly I don't think he. would have ever heard of me. maybe you know not too much but I think.

it's important when people come into. your life figures of authority. you've got to basically squeeze. everything out of them to your advantage. and I think I did that with both. managers. let's do the biggest prone con then so. from what I of these individuals as. managers so Jared Julia you said he's a. great sort of man manager CEO type. that's probably from what I hear one of. his greatest strengths his downside is. maybe a lack of football knowledge is. that what you're I wouldn't say it was a. downside because he had cultures around. him. who who did the training sessions it.

just it got to its its natural end right. in that. you know we shouldn't forget him and he. nearly lost his life managing Liverpool. and he's then making decisions is he. in a fully you know football focused. state of mind but he's actually. recovering from almost losing his life. and we made a few signings that didn't. work and and to be honest that's always. How It Ends for Liverpool managers when. it comes to the end that they have a. summer where they buy a few plays they. don't quite work out and then the next.

manager has to has to come in because. you know the the energy and the. excitement not just from the squad but. also the supporters just peed at an. house so rapha's great tactically. obsessed with football obsessed with the. game but his sort of downside was if. there I mean everyone has a [ __ ]. downside I have a downside as a manager. yeah yeah is is probably the the man. management stuff you yeah but I don't. think that's that stops US winning as. such yes nobody is everything yeah Alex. Ferguson is not a cult she's bought but. we more like a Gerard wholey type figure. and there's cultures there Rafa Benitez.

people question his man management but I. I don't question the research and I. don't question Gerard who like oh the. managers you've just got to do what's. your strength that's your strength or. what if Rafa benite says his strength is. not the man management I'm putting this. act on it's all about being obsessed. with football and coaching every single. day do what you're good at and it is not. interesting is there's so many ways to. win because when I sort of sat here with. all the United players Rio Patrice Gary. they all say about Sir Alex Ferguson. they go manager but only came in the.

training room dressing around twice in. 26 years whatever and I and then you. hear about these other people like Rafa. who also tremendously successful. um won the biggest trophies you could. possibly win but wasn't that way. inclined history is written by the. winner it doesn't matter what you do so. if Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't do well at. Man United. those same plays be sent to you he's not. at the training ground yeah he's never. there yeah we don't do tactical work he. doesn't do any culture it it's all about. women. and and to be honest what you're saying.

that is interesting because one time I. remember Rafa Benitez. he knew someone at United and he said. physician doesn't even coach because in. rapha's mind you've got to be. to be a top man you're a coach you know. I think when him and Mourinho came along. they were like cultures I probably. couldn't get their heads around the way. Alex Ferguson was and it was almost. it was almost a little bit dismissive. and it wasn't like I was trying to. defend the Manchester United manager it. was just a training if infection doesn't. even do the coaching I said so what yeah. it's like it doesn't matter he wins.

there's different ways of winning and. that's my thing on TV now there's no. right or wrong way to play football it's. being the best you can be at what you do. and that and if that's for Rapides is. being on that training now coaching not. getting involved in stuff away from the. pitch well that's someone else's job. you know no one is perfect at any Alex. Ferguson wasn't a great coach so he. brought in great coaches I think that's. really important not just in in. in football management I actually think. in life in that for me I'm a little bit.

weary of getting involved in things but. I think that's not my area of expertise. I think I'd be a little better arrogance. of Michelle to think I could just. parachute myself in there and. you know start running the show or you. get right involved in it so I think we. all got to know what our students are. and all God are no way we need help. because we all need help that's what. Richard Branson taught me. um you know reading through his story. but also getting to speak to him on this. podcast this is a guy who didn't know. what the difference between net profit.

and gross profit until I think he was 50. which is the one of the key principles. like understandings of running a. business. dyslexic can't look at presentations if. you try and show him words on a slide. deck he'll he won't look at it he'll. only look at pictures he's got so many. deficiencies in areas that you think are. critical to business but. the one thing that everyone says he says. and everyone around him says was because. of all of his deficiencies he made up. for it by being the best delegator in. the world so he found people that could. plug all of these gaps and gave them. huge responsibility and you think you.

know by the age of. at the same time when he doesn't know. the difference between net profit and. gross profit he's running 50 different. companies virgin is now 400 different. companies and you go how is someone. who's in his own words like not good at. business. doing that well just a supreme delegator. and Sir Alex focused in the same bad. coach but had can't remember his name. that guy that did it Carlos Keys lots of. different ones didn't he but I think I. think what you're saying. is really good because.

the Creator I've had has afforded me so. many opportunities I'm so fortunate that. I I mean I'm speaking to you you know. you're speaking to other people who are. experts in their field. but when you speak to them and that. story about Richard Branson. is perfect in that. if you don't know them and you know say. my family and friends sometimes they're. fascinated by some of the people I meet. and I said I'm lucky to be in certain. situations and. they look at these people like that.

they're extraordinary and when you've. got a sort of relationship with someone. whether it's someone I work on TV with. they're just normal people and they've. got the same sort of insecurities that. you've got but they've got something. about them where they've got sort of. maybe it's an opportunity that's a. reason they've grabbed it with both. hands they've an enthusiasm something. about them. put them in that position but do not. Extraordinary People they've got an.

extraordinary talent for that you know. which finds themselves I feel it in that. field so. that thing where people are so impressed. with someone or think they're going to. give them these words that they've never. heard of before. I think the olds that are getting now I. realize that a lot of people in you know. great positions it's not because they're. some genius sometimes as I said it's. opportunity they've seen a niche in the. market whatever it may be they've just. gone out there and grabbed it you know. there's a real trap I've noticed based.

on exactly what you've said where. someone's successful so what we do is we. assume that they get everything right. and so with Richard Branson because he's. a super successful entrepreneur we. assume that he's the best at marketing. branding Finance all of these things and. I noticed this a lot when I was in San. Francisco and we were it was when. Snapchat the app had blown up and we. were building a chat app and what you'd. see the team doing was whenever we were. trying to make a decision we the team. were going well what does Snapchat do. because Snapchat was successful we. assumed that their marketing strategy.

every feature they had everything they. did with the login form we assumed. everything they did was right. um and I came to I came to sort of see. that bias in myself and it's exactly. what you've described if we see someone. who is at the top of the game. we assume that they are Godlike in. everything that's what you do with. Richard Branson she means the best. speaker in the world you've seen the. best salesman who know in reality from. what I've learned from doing this and. honestly looking at my own life because. I'm not actually good at business like. I'm not good at the business stuff I'm. not good at like Finance. um operations processes but I'm good at.

this one thing and that's what I learned. from Richard is Richard's good at this. one thing he's like good I'd say he's. good at The Branding piece but he's just. an unbelievable delegator. um so that's yeah I mean that's that's. what I got from all of that but it's. it's funny having this conversation in. the wake of Richard Branson because he's. the the best example of that one of the. obviously one of the defining moments uh. I think in football generally not just. as live as a Liverpool player or a. Liverpool fan was that final away at. Istanbul.

you uh you go in at half time I think. it's 2005 final you go in three nil down. when you go down that tunnel at three. nil down. honestly do you think you can turn that. game around no no no. not at all no what are you thinking when. you walk through the tunnel then there's. gonna be six nil is that what you're. thinking oh how can we stop it being six. nil. I think if you lose again three nil. it happens. if you lose five or six and it's. remembered.

and that was my fear that was fear what. happened in the dressing room what did. Rafa say. not a lot. he wasn't a motivator he was he was a. tactician. and he made changes in this system-wise. strategically to change it but if I'm. being honest I think he changed the. changes he made was not to win the game. I think the changes he made was to stop. it becoming five or six nil. because we actually brought on a. defensive Midfield player Didier man we. went to.

you can call it three at the back but. you can you can be B5 at the back if you. like rather than playing four. don't get me wrong the changes helped us. go on and get the goals but I think. initially we need to stop what AC Milano. doing otherwise this is going to be a. massacre why did the game turn around. I think the change is Rafa made. a little bit of luck. and Steven Gerard. hmm he scores the head oh 54 minutes or. something and then within a couple of. more minutes you've you're three now.

three three but that's that's the little. bit of looking you just go so quickly. right after that that happens in some. games and. we did get a little bit of a look uh I. think the Lions would actually flagged. for an offside the referee didn't see it. and they carried on playing for 30. seconds so the lantern puts his flag. down. and that's in the run-up two was getting. our second goal. so we scored the second goal and then. generation it's just you know when. you're on a football pitch you smell it. it's 3-2. we knew it was good I knew it was gonna.

be three three everybody knew it was. going to be three three just what is. that I don't know. you just the the. reason I know is because when we score. 3-2. no one celebrated the goal scorer. everyone just runs back. he started celebrating he starts. celebrating but it's. he was going crazy I remember thinking. you shouldn't do that yeah but. everyone's back it's like everyone's. saying oof in his own and you don't need. to speak to other people. sometimes there's moments in games it.

just you can smell it you can feel. something's happening is that a culture. thing as well because there's certain. clubs you have that when when they go. two-nil down three nil down no everyone. goes oh they're gonna do it they're. gonna come back and there's that. mentality where you go yeah we're not. safe here they're coming for us. I think Liverpool man united have got it. City you seem to have it now a city yeah. certainly in the last couple of years on. the Pep Guardiola. I've always felt Chelsea have had that. in the last 10 years or so even when. they went at the best they'd still find. a way to win.

and yeah I know our club's got that and. we'll always have that you just it just. you feel like something's gonna happen. why why is Liverpool done so well in the. Champions League. I think a lot of that is emotion. belief getting winning those finals as. well yeah winning finals the history. that's gone before the anfield crowd. believe that the opposition coming to. anfield believe that something's going. to happen special this is a this is a. mythical football ground do you believe. they're the best fans in the Premier. League.

I I wouldn't say that and the reason I. wouldn't say that because everybody. thinks they're the best fans yeah and I. think if I do say that. I won't be turning on my Twitter. notifications in a few days after this. podcast comes out but but no. um. I would say yes I. but every set of supporters what they do. to follow their team home and away I. think I'm feel special I don't think. anyone could deny that that there's. something special. Adam feel that doesn't happen at any. other places where. I think when we say that you know the.

crowd suck the goal in well the. opposition manager would always say. before the game. no Spectators ever scored a goal. that's pretty obvious. but Adam field it almost feels like I. think even top managers even Pep. Guardiola he's his record that anfield. maybe the greatest manager of all time. he's had some of the greatest teams of. all time his record and I'm feels. horrendous and he. he hasn't changed his mind when he goes. to anfield it's just like the.

environment the atmosphere just he. mad things happen at HomeField was that. the Pinnacle of your career that that. final battle oh yeah Istanbul. I have to be honest. I couldn't believe I was playing at that. level. well. I was a huge football fan. probably the biggest football fan in the. dressing room who was just obsessed with. football red watched everything. and I know about all the great teams you.

know going back to the Real Madrid teams. of the 50s the Stefan postcas. um then you probably got to buy a Munich. teams of Beckham Bauer Krave teams just. before that. uh Total Football Holland then you've. got the AC Milan team the great teams. who dominate European football AC Milan. late 80s early 90s I could name all the. players. what they did guardiola's team of. Barcelona obviously that was after we. were involved in the Champions League. and. I'm very honest about. my capabilities of footballer.

but I didn't think I was that level. some people may still think I'm not. that's obviously football's opinions but. I always remember when we won the. semi-final against Chelsea. I wasn't thinking right we're going to. win the championship meet me first few. days afterwards was I'm playing the. Champions League final you know this is. like Maldini berazi Crow you know all. these players who who I absolutely. idolize and know so much about the. defined by the European Cup. or a tournament I always think the.

greatest players of all time. they've either dominated the European. couple they've won the World Cup of the. Euros or something it's winning leagues. is not enough to be really. put yourself on a level of the real. greats that's what they all do. and it was almost wow I can't believe. I'm I'm playing at this level you know. that made me think about Ronaldo. obviously he's he's out the World Cup. now and you've had a couple of strong. opinions on Ronaldo over the last couple. of weeks have I to be honest following. the interview he did and then I'm a man.

united fan so I I didn't take it. especially well what he said and how he. did it and I thought it was very. self-serving and looked selfish Etc. um but there's probably another way to. do it and I wonder now I actually wonder. if he regrets doing it I regret I wonder. if he he knew it would play out like it. did and then he'd go to the World Cup be. benched again which almost kind of. validates Eric tenhag's position but. what's your whole stance on the Ronaldo. Saga. I actually only watched the full. interview a couple of days ago he did.

with Piers Morgan I'd only seen clips of. it. and I watched the full interview. I'm not sure he's a guy who regrets. anything or too much if I'm being. totally honest or simply doesn't give. off that maybe in his private thoughts. I think the Poetry one will have hated. him but you know it's. he's fallible you know he's he's not. superhuman he's he's one of the greatest. players of all time he's special but I. I mean I'm no huge Ronaldo fan I think.

that's pretty obvious and that's not for. his football and ability I actually I. got so much admiration for him for his. mental strength I just think it's. unbelievable. I think probably one of the strongest. players mentally. because he. he's had that thing his whole career for. how good he is he still had such a messy. on his shoulder it's always he could. never almost sit back and go. I'm the best almost relax he's always. had this constant yeah be not as good as. Messi and I know people it splits people. but I would say the majority of people.

would probably side with Messi out I. would I would imagine I think that they. do. and I think to always have that and. always have that thing of trying to. prove people wrong and I've got that on. a completely different level. it's almost like he feels like he's not. rated even though everyone says he's one. of the best players of all time and I. and I can't help but admire that drive. because. I've got that drive but just not that. ability that he's got. but I just I mean I'm saying I don't. want him to sort of ruin his legacy with. interviews I mean I don't really care.

it's not not my problem but. it's it's it's sad for him. the way people people are speaking about. messy towards the end of his career and. Ronaldo and it's completely different. and it's not to do with what's going on. in the pitch I think it's always that. idea that Ronaldo was about himself it. was the eagle whereas Messi has painted. this this like sync figure when I don't. actually think that's true. but people are talking about what messy. to win the World Cup you know with. Ronaldo it's like he's not the same.

player but who is the same player to 37. so he's getting criticized for not being. the same player 37-38 when really he's. getting loads of that stage of his. career but because of the way he comes. across he storms off the pitch uh storms. down the tunnel he he's given that. interview people have obviously going on. Forum now and uh where does he go from. here because he because if he had had a. phenomenal World Cup then there'd. probably be a lot of doors open for him. some top sides would probably want him. even just for a year contract or. something but in the wake of being a.

disruptive employer at his last role and. then going off to the euros and being. either a disruptive employee or just a. little poor performing employee he makes. you wonder like what manager is going to. want to take on that ego but also. without the upside you get with just. like incredible unfilled performance so. it's now just it seems like it's just. it's tilted the other way now yeah I. mean Ronaldo hasn't changed yeah he's. always been that sort of. character everyone's known that but he. was with the hassle yeah exactly now and.

that's like everything in football you. know when we talk about a manager making. a decision. can you put up with that and it's not. it's in your business isn't it in your. life you know you don't cut off your. noses about your face but when I get to. that stage where you're thinking this. will become a more of a problem. and again I say that to be soon you know. when a manager looks at you as a player. every manager wants the same thing. performance low maintenance that's it. you know Satan players. you know and it's when it goes starts.

getting weighted to the high maintenance. is basically the scales are more tilted. towards the high maintenance it's time. to go did you see any high maintenance. players in your career. that were specific particularly. troublesome. that weird or wind were. it's funny at Liverpool. in that. I think Liverpool's a unique Club. and I'm sure it's still the same. Liverpool supports have an obsession. with the manager that I don't think I've. seen at any other club.

so when the team win it's about shankly. Paisley now it's klopp we know there's. great players. but the adulation I think starts with. Bill shankly. and when we when Liverpool win it's. about the manager and the players it's. not the players then the manager so the. managers are at Liverpool I think have. always had a great deal of authority. they've always had the people with them. so it's never a case of a players could. get a manager out and I never saw that.

at Liverpool certainly not when I was. there Roy Hodgkin had a tough time at. Liverpool. he wasn't the right manager for the club. and the club moved around after about. six months why was he the right manager. he just he didn't get the club he didn't. say the right things in the Press. he was he was too defensive for. Liverpool for the top not just for. Liverpool but for any top club but. listen he'd had success in his career. playing that way and he wasn't going to. change when he was in the 60s so it was. just the wrong appointment it didn't. work I read that Gerard deliberately.

missed a penalty to no that's not true. yeah I wonder I couldn't believe it was. true but I read that's what I read and I. thought there's no [ __ ] way that. Jared would miss a penalty I actually. went upstairs before you came and. watched it to see Gerald's body language. and Gerard did look pissed off. nothing like that and I mean I was I. felt sorry for him hey to be honest but. me points of making them what the club. is. I think it would always be difficult at. any stage. for a player to have this big ego to.

sort of try and think he was more. powerful than manager because I think. that's why managers love being Manager. of Liverpool is because they'd always. get time you look at you can clap now. and there's a spell in in the season. the pandemic season where he's done he's. not amazing he's a Godlike figure. but other people actually lost six games. a whole against teams in the bottom of. the table in a row. and I'm not saying you should have been. exactly what I'm saying this I know the. clubs that question would have been.

asked. I don't even mean one Liverpool support. as a saying one yeah it would have. actually even contemplated that for. anything because that's the type of. support that they've been brought up on. the manager knows what he's doing well. one of my best friends is um I love my. maybe my best friend in the world is a. Liverpool fan and I I said to him this. year when Liverpool was struggling I. said what would it take for you to. become clop out he wouldn't answer the. question I pressed him I pressed him for. weeks and weeks and weeks eventually I. was like if Liverpool get relegated are.

you still klopping he was like yeah and. he just like leaves the group chat but. it's like a religious phenomenon yeah I. just I don't even with Vegas in a menu I. know he was he was a mumbly unbelievable. but I just think when I go to see man. United's past a big rival it'll be. George best and Bobby Charlton in that. and then maybe you know Maples becomes. after them in some ways maybe I'm wrong. but it just feels like different at. Liverpool I think that gives managers. huge power and why I don't think I've. ever encountered what I would call. player power as such at Liverpool.

probably why Liverpool have been. successful though because many other. clubs have struggled with that even. Manchester United most recently with. some of the big personalities we've had. where the manager doesn't have authority. and you just get you get into the first. season and you go the manager is going. to be fired because we're not going to. get rid of this world-class player. um and then you I was speaking to Jesse. lingard about this like. because you can almost feel it in the. air when when it's coming you know you. can feel that they've lost that phrase. lost the dressing room I've always. wondered if that was true.

because it's a real thing yeah I think. so I mean I I probably felt that when. Roy Hodgson was there I don't think many. players were enjoying the training or. having them and I was almost felt like I. was trying to like come on you you know. is there private comments though between. you and Gerard where you go uh this is. not oh yeah of course listen we're not. we're like fans if that would be maybe. I'll tell her what are you doing here. why has he done that uh I I always. remember and the only time I've ever did. that did this in my whole career. we lost a home to Blackpool under Royal.

I think it was an international break. and I'd stop playing for England then. and I couldn't sleep. and I went in the next morning and I. went straight into his office. and he was actually having a coach's. meeting. and I was probably. 33 34 so I was a really experienced Pro. and we just had this big discussion with. all the cultures and it wasn't. and probably said things soon that. happened maybe you know he was talking. about what he wanted to do for that and.

everything you can do that you can't do. it wasn't me questioning him as a. manager it was almost like I want to. help him and not because he again he. needed help as a manager he needed help. as a Liverpool manager as such. and. it was almost like no if you if if you. come out and say that or if you play. this play everyone's just going to you. you can't do that anymore that's got to. stop I wouldn't name the names I was. talking about I wouldn't do that but. that wasn't a case of me saying you. don't know what you're doing you needed. it wasn't an arrogant way.

it was in a way as if like again the. club was just like oh my God where are. we going what are we doing it wasn't for. sort of it was more trying to help the. situation. reading trying to help him as a as a. managers I knew it was tough. sounds like he's lost a dressing room at. that point oh yeah yeah yeah no I said. that you know a lot of the play is what. I'm saying is he hadn't lost me as such. as I said no no manager could lose me or. get me in some ways and that I always. felt like I wasn't really playing for. them I mean I was behind every manager.

and wanted to take things from every. manager we hear these stories where. they're like the the CEO has had a. conversation with a player that's a. disgrace is that is that is that true. have you ever heard of that happening. where the CEO of the club will have a. conversation with the player about the. manager is the manager right do we need. to move him on what's going on in the. dressing room because if I was to CEO of. a club. and I wasn't like I'm seeing on the. pitch that the club is performing badly. I might go and post TV aside or you. aside and go how's everything going that.

happened once to me and I just. absolutely completely said this is an. absolute joke. that happened in 2007. with American owners. Hicks and Gillette oh gosh that was a. yeah they'd had a big follow-up with. Rafa Benitez over transfer attacks. whatever it must have been and they. wanted to sacrifer and bring Jag and. cleanseman. and they. me and Steve had the same agent.

and rather it wasn't a case of we'd. speak to them on the phone I never. really ever you know never spoke to no. need to. they said. would Stevie and kind of be okay if Rafa. Benitez was changed and we brought young. klinsman in. and I was like what we've been in the. Champions League final about two months. before so we've been in underneath we've. been in two Champions League finals in. three years. but listen I'm not defending the. Americans in anybody but I know Rapha. but he says as a manager there's. hardware for a CEO and an owner I know. that he pushes them to the absolute.

limit where I think in the end they. think oh he's you know the performance. high maintenance type of thing it is. like that as a manager. but it was like what. absolutely not I mean why are you even. speak no it's. I couldn't believe the question was even. asked number one because of how well. we've done as a team but also number two. why are you asking me it's just like no. don't ever almost put me in that. position or situation or you can fire. the manager yeah but if that did happen. at that time you can imagine it happen.

at other clubs certainly Chelsea who was. just a revolving door and Rafa was. eventually fired by them wasn't he I. believe. yeah but like three years later or. something like that that was like that. was when it was at its best it wasn't a. football and decision like that was a. personal decision so you so you. I'm guessing you didn't go and tell Rafa. that conversation had happened no okay. eventually you retire and interestingly. which kind of Buck's the trend again you. you said you were. happy that your career was done um why.

the roller coaster of emotions. it was yeah I just I had enough of it. you know behind the highs and lows. and the high was never as. high as the low was low. if you like. so now I was done I didn't it's very. difficult to leave Liverpool. I'd seen other plays Lee because in. Liverpool fans eyes I'm rightly so ways. better than Liverpool I actually said. that an interview once who's bigger than.

Liverpool. but we've had plays with left and gone. to Real Madrid didn't last longer but as. a local player you could never move to. another English Club. or certainly feel like you were going on. the up. you may be your career might be petering. out and you go lower down Liverpool fans. would be fine with that but a local. player moving. very difficult there's you look at the. reaction to Mike alone moving to Real. Madrid and then subsequently ends up at. Manchester United even Steve McManaman. is not loved as much as he should be for. how good a play he was at Liverpool I.

feel because he left on a bus when I. went to Real Madrid didn't go to a big. rival he went to the biggest club in the. world. that was always in my head. not that I could. necessarily move to. a European giant but the thing of. how do you get out. how do we tell how do I time this right. I don't want to carry on playing when. I'm embarrassing myself and embarrassing. the club or the supporters so I've.

almost got the timings out and I know. towards the end of my career there was. Liverpool fans really questioning. why I got a new contract at a certain. stage you know why I was playing and. saying games ahead of another player not. not massively not where people outside. of Liverpool would know but. again you smell it you feel it the local. paper fans you know it just you know. you're not stupid and I had that to. start to be clear the flip side of that. way. it was always that thing of am I fully.

rated am I good enough to play for. Liverpool so I always had that. through my career and. I think the one thing that's helped me. in my career is. I've always had the feeling that I'm not. fully rated. or I think I've been underestimated a. little bit as a player and maybe in the. role that I do now where. no one's expected what I've ended up. doing so it's almost maybe that takes a. little bit of pressure off but I've. always felt like.

I've got something to prove they don't. quite think I'm good enough I wasn't. sure I wasn't Stephen I wasn't Michael I. wasn't Robbie Fowler when I got into the. team I was a slow being and I got better. and better and better as the years went. on through experience and maturity. but absorbs that thing of. am I good enough did that make you work. harder than people around you. yeah yeah. I I yeah 100 it always felt like um. always I have it now where I always feel.

like. there's some fight of some battle to win. or something like. you know and I never look back I never. sort of think I've done that. I I always remember something Brendan. Rodgers said to me. you just become Liverpool manager and. he'd been promoted the year before with. Swansea. and he told me about Alex Ferguson sent. him a letter as I think Alex Vegas must. maybe do two every manager gets promoted.

and he's written this letter well done. congratulations and he said to Brandon. Rogers something. he said. but remember never lose your fear. and I remember Brendan Rodgers telling. me and it was like a light bulb moment. and I went I've never lost mine. it almost like yeah. I'm not trying to compare myself to. Doug's face what I'm saying is when he. said that was like a piece of advice to. Brendan Rogers and I'm sure he said it. to all the managers and players.

but it was like probably the biggest. figure in English football at that time. and I didn't say nothing to Brenda wow. that is so important to success I think. always having that fear. without letting it sort of overtake you. where you can't actually you know. mentally you can't achieve what you want. to do but always have that thing where. you think someone's going to take me. Place someone's looking to beat me so. who am I competing with you know always.

having that and I've I've still got that. today I've also got the fear that. use the next plunder coming. um you know what. what angle are they going to come out. I'll think about what I'm going to say. before I get to a game it's the opposite. of complacency right that's yeah yeah. and whether you can put that into people. I've never had complacency in my life I. don't think I ever will. do you think yeah it's a good point do. you think you can teach that or is that. just a. yeah because I don't even we do you ever. do you ever feel I mean obviously you're.

very successful. do you ever feel like you've done enough. um of course not I I don't yeah of. course not. do you think that's that's a that is a. treat with with people you know you. bring on the podcast as well it's just I. I mean even when I'm speaking to you a. lot of time I'm speaking about poor. games I'm not speaking about great games. and it just that constant feeling as if. I can do more I should have done more. but I'm the thing I'm most curious about. is of course I see that in on all my. guess I mean Eddie Hearn comes to mind.

his book is called Relentless and he's. you know I remember I remember him. asking him like what's the end game and. he's like well you know one day we'll. we'll sell this company okay so that day. you sell the company then you go to the. beach and have the pina coladas and you. could just sit in his face for horror. the thought that even if he sold. matching boxing he he would need to go. and just carry on fighting for something. and we all have that we all I think we. have it hardwired into us as just. generally as humans and this is why. we're here in these buildings and have. this the roads and the cars that our. ancestors put something in us where they. said you're gonna struggle forward but.

then I think other some people have it. to an even more obsessive degree and. it's usually people who've had some. early experience where. losing. um. came at a real cost to their self-esteem. or to someone around them that mattered. or their dad or you know they just. learned early that losing meant that. they were they weren't enough they. weren't Worthy. and that's kind of what I was trying to. understand in you is. because that I see that particularly in. your story that like obsessive. competitiveness but I don't see it in.

everybody. so where did that like what was the cost. of losing or not winning or not you know. I've said it before I go back to me. a child with football a feeling of. winning losing you were playing since. you were three or something right yeah. playing really early and. I was thinking about you know I was. thinking about what I'm going to say. when I come on here what am I going to. say that's you know. different than you know you have lots of. guests and even that's you know. everything like yeah just just thinking.

you know well nice point would you like. to be I don't know what you want to ask. me. but. I think that the role I'm in now. we talk about the. you know I've read that book bounce have. you read that book no the table Yeah the. ten thousand hours sort of mindset of. you know that and. you know I was a footballer for. professional football for 17 years but. you don't realize when you're in it will. be forwarded that it's actually a small. penalty of your life really.

and the job I'm in now I'm probably. going to be doing that a lot more than. I'm actually a professional footballer. and. I actually think my 10 000 hours. of what I did as a kid is almost not. just to be a footballer so actually be. a Ponder an analyst whatever you want to. call it. because I don't think anybody I want to. talk I'm the reason I'm talking about. this is because I'm talking about being. competitive now as a. pundit talking on TV making good points. analyzing games is that who's going to.

come next who's going to try and take my. place but I I don't think. many if any. I've had my. education in football the way I have I. don't think anyone could have done more. in football. than what I did to prepare me to get to. where I was when I finished what about. Gary. no do you think Gary do you say no what. a meat what I mean by this is not in. terms of like. putting hard work and I'm thinking talk. about I was getting taken to football.

games from the age of four or five. amateur football. I was in the back of the van with all. the players so listen to men talk. football. straight when you come back go back to. the pub everyone back the pub so we'd. meet at the pub. 12 on a Saturday and a Sunday my dad was. the manager we're all back at the van. I'm listening to these I'm five six. listen to men talk football back to the. pub I'm playing on the pool table all. the football results are coming in but. again that constant talk of football why.

don't you become a manager people would. think you'd become your leader yeah I. actually think Leeds is interesting in. that I think it's almost like a. different type of leadership now I think. in the 70s 80s maybe 90s. we always cast a leader as me. you know whether he had the captain's. arm on your screaming shout out to. referee your own players you're aging. people on and that is leadership. but I don't think that that person. necessarily ends up always being the. manager I'm just thinking of Michael. arteta I played against him I don't.

think he had him say a word on the pitch. and then you could say someone like a. Tony Adams well has he not Arsenal. manager you know he's that leadership. well he's had a little goal with the. management more than a little goal but I. think management now is set up for more. of the studious types not that I don't. think about the game but. I actually think I've made a great. decision not to be a manager because. I think when I was playing I thought. like a manager and I think. what managers put themselves through is.

probably what I put myself through as a. player where you really torture yourself. and you get that emotionally involved. and. I I would back my football knowledge I I. wouldn't be embarrassed if you're in. trouble Peg Guardiola came on Monday. Night Football and we were talking to. football and I might disagree with. something he said he might disagree with. I wouldn't feel out of place. but would I make a good football manager. I don't think so I spoke to Michael. Holman's and sometimes it's when someone.

else says something to you it really. hits home and he. I was interviewing him but he said to me. you're not a people person and I was. like what aren't I even not really said. you don't have a. you know you don't suffer feel you know. you're quite sharper people at times. and it was only I thought well yeah he'd. probably raised and that wouldn't help. you be a. top football managers you've got to put. up with things and basically. you know if if a player came into me and. said he was injured my first thought was.

he's telling a lie. I'm like that with my kids if they say. the sick. you know I just I can't get that feeling. up we had that. no the bluffing you know that type of. I'd always think I'd be questioning you. know players speaking of your kids how. did fatherhood change you. because I heard you say it changed you. and I couldn't didn't find the details. so how did it change you. well I don't think it changed when my. wife is pregnant I don't think I. realized the enormously of having a kid.

or having me some I should say. I wasn't there for the bath. I was Liverpool had a game. in Europe on the Tuesday in the. Champions League and I was with my wife. on the Sunday she went in but obviously. I didn't deal with the baby by the Mundy. and we were traveling I had to go but I. say I had to I didn't have to go. but it was always that I think at the. time it was like oh it should be okay. you know my mom was there and I went. and there we're gonna be three and after.

half an hour I was like uh but we we. sung up was born the day before the game. we played the game in Europe and I. always remember we got we drew three. three and we went off to Champions. League which was a big a big blow and I. always remember Jared Julia after the. game toasten me. and I always loved and admired him for. that because I used to think. I can't believe he's done that because. I think I'd feel like my stomach's being. ripped out if we're just gonna have the. champions league as a manager in some. ways and it was I I didn't I didn't.

realize how big it was to to have a. child uh I think. yeah they do not just for being there. when James was born more for being there. you know you know he's going through you. know it's not easy. uh you know the birth of a child so. yeah I regret that. I would advise anyone in my situation to. you know be there but I think I think it. is the common thing now I think even. when you see.

you know different example but sort of. regime still at the world cup goes home. on the back of his house getting baggled. whereas maybe years ago that'd be seen. as if like well yeah yeah you'd have to. wear a cup yeah you're playing for. England you know and I think there's a. lot more. probably get empathy and understanding. from football managers now to sort of. you know family matters but with me with. me kids it's like I wouldn't say I was a. kid person before I had kids you know. with relatives or something.

but I feel like I'm completely different. now so I've got nieces and nephews who. it's funny really because. man and Nicholas kids are but we're all. they're older so James is 20 me as 18 me. lives in New York now. but we've got nieces and nephews and. we're almost at times in the house on. our own it's like should we go and see. the kids we see the kids not even our. kids it's a bit like we need a fix of. kids for sort of an hour you know we're. handing them up have you got a boyfriend.

have you got a girlfriend you know all. this thing that you did when your kids. were growing up because we we really. miss and. I think my wife would have wanted more. kids but I was no we've got two we've. got the boy and a girl Nicola your. childhood sweetheart. um you married her in 2005 I believe. yeah yeah yeah you've forgotten yeah. Champions League yeah. one of the quotes that um struck me was. this so did you speak to her no no no. because you know why because she tells.

me everything really she can't keep a. secret she would tell me everything I. reckon I could have got it I will find. out maybe in the future party. um this quote here where it says. this part of my life story is the one I. find most difficult to tell I could talk. to you for hours expressing my fondness. for certain players or football teams. but doing the same thing about the woman. you love question mark hmm. yeah I do find that even with shorter me. Mom or Dad.

really you know saying you love them and. I do to my wife of course I do but. there's there's definitely when we have. disagreements. my wife I'll you know it'll be I'm not. saying too much. but you say but when you're on the phone. talking to sky or you're doing your. newspaper column you can't shut up you. know about football and ideas where's. this you know I I want that and. I'm just not I just I do find it.

difficult I'm just not that patient to. come out with those. words and. I do find I don't know if it's. I don't know what it is I mean I think. the brothers are the same. we were yeah you know we're not like a. an overly Huggy kissy family I'm like. that with my kids and I'm like that with. my wife but I wouldn't say I wouldn't be. classed to someone whoever does it now. which she can't see as an affectionate. person or a romantic person. I wouldn't say romantic I might say. affectionate is that different I don't.

know affectionate I think of like. kissing and schmoozing romantic I think. of like gestures you know like the roses. and stuff like that oh probably more. yeah yeah I would do things like that. maybe yeah yeah. as you look back on the role that your. parents played in your life what would. you. um I've got all of these wonderful. photos here which I printed off earlier. on oh cool. show me. I'll slide the photos to you and you. tell me you tell me what the person. means in your life then what about that.

one. oh that's me Dad yeah yeah huge. influence yeah still like. a huge influence now. a larger than life character I think. these past I wouldn't well this I know. I'm a strong character no I'm a big. character and I think that comes from. from me Dad uh I think. that personality and character he's. passed on to me. I think is the reason why. become the player I have because. the reason I got there was not.

justability. I don't think my ability is Champions. League final level. but I think my personality and character. is and that's what dragged. you know Jamie had a footballer to a. Champions League final because I can. and mentally strong and tough and you. know it. you know what and you have ups and downs. in your life in your career but as I. said not getting your way not in. stopping you no obstacles in the way and. I think a lot of that comes from me Dad. what about this one.

foreign. [Laughter]. [Laughter]. [Music]. [Music].

what does this mean to you. yeah. that's me life. yeah that's. me Nick London's two kids in Ibiza. uh yeah I'm really proud of my family. and what we we all have and listen we. said before no one's got no one's. amazing no one's got. you know he's got all the answers we. have ups and downs like any family or. you know you have words.

at the moment me as in New York now we. haven't got we're the same as any other. family. can't sleep is she okay my wife's going. to sleep probably three or four o'clock. in the morning because of the time. difference making sure she's in and you. know just that whole balance of life she. she was only supposed to do three months. she then told us a week ago she wants to. do a year. and we're excited to bring her own but. so proud of her to go to New York at 18. living on at all you know but it's it's. it's tough but again so proud and James.

what he's doing playing football I mean. uh not easy I know being a son of a. footballer a girl but I always say again. don't use that as an excuse because. there's positives to that as well you. know uh but no really really you know. we're proud of them and what I always. say. to them is. have a story. when you get to my age older make sure. you've got a story so.

you know what have you done do amazing. things that me has gone to New York I. don't know whether that's going to lead. but what a thing to tell your own kids I. lived in New York for a year you know. and that's I always drawn that into the. kids. you know he wants to do special things. amazing things. just go on Smash life basically just go. and do it Jamie thank you thank you so. much and we have a closing tradition on. this planet no I haven't got a question. you can you can you can take your time. on that part okay the part and also when.

I ask people this this question they. usually take like. five minutes to think about the answer. which is funny but um the question. that's been left for you obviously the. person didn't know they were leaving it. for you is. interesting you. do uncomfortable situations bring the. best or worst out of you. I would say the best. I think.

whether that's. on the pitch off the pitch family stuff. I think when when. in the moment I think I can. almost narrow it down and not get too. hysterical or two it's a bit like okay. need to do that that and that. and almost. be a little bit calmer in there and that. comes maybe as well. on the pitch when.

if you know you've had a bad injury or. you feel like someone's going to take. your place or you feel like something's. a bit like. almost was a car compartmentalizes it is. that the right word yeah uh not always. good with words. but no just get that. focus of like that's what I need to do. and I think that's I think it's it's. probably a strength of mine of like not. worrying about its face I think I like. doing that with the kids. or my wife if they come to me with a.

problem. and it's always easier someone else's. problems because you don't have as much. the emotional attachment and to think. about a few other things but it's a bit. like. and that's what I love about being a dad. helping your own kids with those. problems and being I've been there. before and. sort of given that advice the best thing. about getting older I think is. experience and being able to give that. to someone. and I think a lot of the time you know.

it's funny with me son. in that I think when he's in a really. good mood and he's happy and his life's. going really well. I know he's out with his mates and he. doesn't need but. I know sometimes if he's. not feeling 100 I can just feel it I can. smell it. and it'll come to me and you know you. you want to be there to help you know. that sort of passion on something so I. think from an individual point of view. yes but I also love the fact that.

I love helping people on that side of it. when because we're all we're all in. uncomfortable situations at different. times and whenever life's going great. I'm obviously in something around the. corner. slightly terrifying because it's so true. Jamie thank you so much thank you thank. you for having the conversation I really. I was so excited to talk to you because. of the mentality you have and how how. that's resulted in such tremendous. career says for for Liverpool but now. also as a pundit and I can see that kind.

of Relentless fight in you and how that. hasn't disappeared and I find it so. incredibly inspiring that mentality is. at the very heart of your success. because I do believe to some degree that. that is something that people can pick. up like Talent is one thing being seven. foot tall and becoming a basketball. player but knowing that there is this. other thing which is the the values we. hold in our mind and the behaviors that. creates that we can all embody which you. perfectly embody I mean Peter Crouch. really I think I told you after the. reason I reached out to you is because. of that conversation with Peter Crouch. and I just thought God like the way he. talks about you like you're on this.

other level of. extreme you know winning mentality. um is tremendously inspiring but also. there's a cost to that and you've kind. of detailed the cost you went to is it. Billy the psychologist you went to Bill. Bill yeah Bill Bestway can you kind of. detailed the cost of it is this still on. though yeah yeah Oh I thought we'd. finished no no I'm just wrapping up. but yeah that's exactly it it's um it's. the cost of that mentality which I think. is also important to be clear on um so. thank you for being so honest really.

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