James Bay: Imposter Syndrome, Trauma & Controlling The Voice In Your Head | E166

i remember writing hold back the river. and everybody at the label jumping for. joy and thinking that they had a hit on. their hands. i dreamt about being on those stages in. front of all the people that my heroes. were in front of. i remember this burning desire i was. dead certain that i wanted it more than. everyone. chaos in the calm comes out debbie is. the number one that's crazy and the. winner is jasper thank you so much this.

is insane nobody could have made us. understand it was going to be traumatic. who i was. on the chaos and the calm campaign i. needed to stop all of that for my soul. and my mental health yeah it's pretty. [ __ ] intense. ed sheeran invited me to open for him in. football stadiums around europe and the. bit i hate to admit and i'm anxious to. confess is that. life can take a toll on people to be. male and talk about your. feelings it was more about can you suck.

it up though it's all like an act. would you do it all again. i'm really concerned about what happens. next. so without further ado. i'm stephen bartlett and this is the. diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening. but if you are then please keep this. yourself. [Music].

james. so you're a 90s baby yeah 1990 same as. me 1992. okay what about those early. years. defined you. and the person you would go on to be. when you look back at the dots and say. well that that and that. is the reason i am who i am what are. those first dots i grew up in a in a. kind of commuter belt town called. hitching in hertfordshire which is about. an hour outside of the centre of london. i hated going into london it's horrible. busy noisy smelly awful.

the quiet calm of my little hometown was. perfect it was safe. pretty much safe. um. i'm the youngest of of me and my brother. um and then there's my parents my mum. and my dad and we don't have. my i only have one cousin who was born. 10 years after i was born. so we were small family it wasn't a big. crowd it wasn't the sort of noisy. experience growing up uh in that respect. my parents are pretty fiery people.

and. they're kind of. party animals in a way they they're very. social. they're very loud and and and um kind of. excitable. so i feel. that that was going on all the time they. had people around all the time and they. kind of i suppose inspired me and my. brother to sort of be okay in all sorts. of social situations. and uh. i think all kids myself included go. through moments of shyness and moments.

where they're a little more outgoing. than maybe a little more shy again than. outgoing again. i remember most vividly the sort of. shire times and i stood behind. my older brother. who would lead. nine out of 10 times into any situation. with other kids or whatever. so i felt. i was a more timid. person. gentle. compared to my parents and my brother. who were more. um.

just louder. well your parents affectionate. in a kind of. uh. i want to say like wartime ways stiff. upper lip kind of way my. dad was older than other dads. um still a great dad. but he might you know he was 42 when i. was born. uh he's nearly 75. and. he comes from like very well his parents.

were. you know his dad was flying. fighter planes in the second world war. most of uh. my friends. parents. parents parents like there's there's. another generation usually involved. whereas for me it was my dad's dad who. was doing that. so. my parents come from this. you've asked if they were affectionate. uh they were affectionate in their sort. of steely way. [Music].

it wasn't. it wasn't. sweet and sugary. and cuddly. to be honest. for example. when i showed some vague interest in. performing of any kind. my mum. was less oh that's nice she wasn't. really that wasn't her. energy her energy was like okay if. you're into it do it and do it like mean.

it. go on. like it was it was with a bit of a smile. it wasn't like it was like it was. encouraging and i got on board with it. but um. ultimately it was like. if you're gonna give it a shot don't. don't do it by half. look at and she'd name any one of my. heroes. and or any one of her heroes musically. you know my parents are big music fans. she said look at what they give it.

you've got to give it that. and without quite saying it she was. saying. you know you have to be believable it's. all like an act. um so. affectionate. they were encouraging and and they were. excited by for example when i got into. music and wanting to play an instrument. and performing and all that they were. excited about it i think but they. weren't like if i wasn't into it they. weren't. you know if if. the one and a half times in the early.

early days that i kind of went oh i. don't know if i want to play guitar. actually it's probably a bit hard they. weren't like oh. and they weren't saying try harder then. they were just like. okay. what about your dad then when he finds. out that you want to be you know you. might want to pursue that avenue well. one thing my dad and both my parents um. said a lot about. and kind of required of me. was that i would do something to earn. some money and actually go back to i was. 12 or 13. when they first said pocket money's done.

and i think i know a lot of kids who are. getting that until sort of 16 at the. time. some of them longer. because there was various kids whose. parents weren't. they didn't need their kids to get a job. they just wanted their kids to be kids. and. have a nice time and i guess it's not. that my parents didn't want me to have a. nice time but from like 12 years old. they were like there are jobs you can. get there's a paper round there's this. there's that and there was a my dad. who had loved music and going to see. music live since he was you know much. younger since way before me and my. brother came along.

he was definitely like there's a job at. the market like so-and-so's kid is. working down at the market. go and ask him how he got the job try. and get the other shift and i did i got. that shift my brother got one of the. shifts as well and at 13. in january. at 4 00 am i was on my bike on the way. to the market in the dark. shivering my nuts off. i remember the like anxiety dreams that. i would have before getting up for that. because as a teenager i just wanted to. be asleep.

for hours and hours and hours and you're. supposed to like we know more about that. now it's like really good for teenagers. to get as much sleep as they can kids of. any age but teenagers apparently very. important my dad didn't know any of that. not interested. you know if james wants to buy guitar. strings because he's snapping him off. his guitar all the time and i can't he's. like i can't keep paying for that. which i respect. i didn't know the time. um. my dad and my mum. but also because my dad had had jobs as.

a as a kid you know helping someone a. like a. you know a corner shop or something he. he like heartily believed in that and. was trying to instill that in us. from clearly you know very early on. because whatever our hobby might have. been. he's like i don't want to have to fund. it. and i understand that we don't come from. money. you know we don't my mum was sometimes. working and sometimes not because you. know she was being a stay-at-home mom. half a time. um. but um my dad was was you know bringing.

in the the big bit that that paid for. the family to sort of exist. um. yeah so he he was uh. he believed. as long as we could sort of fund the. things that we wanted to do more or less. then. they were doable. you talk a lot about how um having idle. time is really really important to. discovering who you are and being a. creative and. and finding yourself.

something it's actually a concept that. i've not really heard before talked. about from from my guests is the. importance of just having. a window of time and i imagine even. today when it comes to creativity that's. that's maybe a big part of your creative. process can you talk to me about that. that early age then how idle time helped. you to become who you are. um. almost against the odds basically it. helped me become who i am today. and it helped feed my creative. everything um what do i mean by that. my mum's the type of person who so when.

i was a kid in the house you know if i. if i was. having some idle time. another way to say that if i wasn't. doing anything. middle of the afternoon. she'd be on me like you know straight. away or my brother like what are you. doing. you can't do nothing. you could tidy your room you could come. and clean this thing for me you could go. out the back garden and do this thing. for me you could do that. what do you mean you're doing nothing. that's my that's a vivid memory. and it's not like unfair.

i i respect it in certain ways but i. know as a at this point someone who's. sort of. professionally kind of creative and you. know wound up in a position where i can. sort of call that my job that it's very. important. to be staring out the window there was. some quote i can't remember who said it. and somebody told me the other day and i. haven't got any sort of reference names. for you sorry but a guy said uh let's. just say it was einstein einstein. perfect. um einstein's wife said to him what are.

you doing he was looking out the window. he said i'm working. and that was it. and it's perfect for a creative that. because it's bang on. if i'm staring out the window into space. as the rest of us might say. then it just looks like i'm staring in. space. but i'm probably having an idea for a. song or a lyric or working something. over in my head i find it hard to say. that stuff to you or anybody without. worrying that i sound pretentious or. like a bit of a dick. um.

but i know that's the experience when i. was a kid. thinking about something i wanted to. draw whatever it may have been and. having some of this like idol time. like i said my mum is like on me like. no that's not okay. so maybe that's why i. i'm sort of concerned even now. that i look. like a. pretentious. idiot no i i can i have to say i. completely agree and it's it's.

logically it makes a ton of sense that. you have to clear the mind to allow new. ideas to arrive and that we all i mean. every business every person that works. in the business will know the best ideas. don't come from a boardroom they don't. come when you're trying to think of them. they come when you go for a walk or. you're in the shower yeah all these. places where you have that space yeah um. so it makes perfect sense i remember. david gilmour and pink floyd said every. time i sit down guitar in hand to write. a song in that really creative mood i. want to write a song and i'm going to. and it's going to be great nothing comes.

and it's it is generally that way. so it's quickly a long time ago it. quickly made me understand and sort of. cherish the opportunity to. sit around. with the tools nearby. and just exist and think and dream. and. play. by which i mean play guitar play music. but just play. creatives and just people generally i. think. have a lot of guilt. associated with.

just sitting around but it seems to be. so incredibly imperative to creation. it's a huge huge part of it it's. probably 95 of the reason why it ever. works if it ever works. 95 of it is about. having you not not watching a clock. not there not being any sort of. consequence and we put i put hundreds of. consequences on myself. we all do. um. but as soon as you do those things.

the kind of the quality. starts to sort of. lessen. um. so yeah it didn't help that experience. when i was a kid. of my mum sort of going no no no no no. get yourself busy yeah you got you know. if you're not you know it was almost if. you're not if i don't see you kind of. playing and and and getting something. from the playing then you're not. spending your time you could be helping. me you could be doing this you could be. doing that is there is there a is there.

some homework you haven't done and yeah. there probably was like hundreds of bits. of homework i hadn't done but i was. already so into. trying to write a song or get better at. playing the guitar or being creative in. some other way. that of course i was pushing the. homework under the rug. um. but that. unfortunately that that even that small. sort of pressure that i felt then has. ended up as like so many like you say. you've met so many creative people who. feel that sort of guilt. it has um. heightened the sense of guilt so it's a.

strange one to juggle. and uh. and i find myself fighting against it. and that's a that's really inconvenient. to what i'm trying to do. as a passion and actually for a living. suddenly. what insecurities did you have at that. young age i spend a lot of time talking. about all of mine but no man someone. about your theirs um. insecurities i had an insecurity so in. school in like primary school as a young. kid.

i was um i was a fast runner. i was good at drawing and painting i had. this a selection of things that i was. good at and like the talk in the. classroom was that i was the best at. running. i was one of the best at football i was. the best at drawing. and i'm not fully sure how. but that started quickly to really. matter to me. to the point that as far as you know. what insecurities did i have. i. i think back.

about the worries that i had about what. if one day i'm not the fastest. and what if somebody draws something. better than me. and i hate to admit that i don't know. why i felt those things. but. i had i had an ambition and a dr and a. drive. that. wanted to. be really really good. at. these things um. and as a kid yeah i wanted to sort of be. able to feel like i was the best at them.

why do you know why i don't know well i. know it's dangerous territory is what i. wanted to say i know now as an adult. that's dangerous territory. because there's enjoying things and. being really good at them. and then there's a there's a difference. between that and whatever somebody. decides is the best why. one. theory as to why. one of my theories i suppose just as i. think about it now. is that i could maybe then sort of. maybe i could validate. idle time.

i think i really enjoyed. and to this day i really enjoy. are having an endless amount of time and. space to create. and i'll throw that thing about being. the fastest runner sort of off the table. for a minute because it doesn't really. sort of relate to the context of. the other things i loved then that have. sort of fed through into my life now. um. why why why was i why did i worry about. that stuff.

but yeah i wanted to i wanted if if i. could be if i could say people think i'm. really good at this then i could have. a reason. for why i. should be allowed any amount of time. to focus on them. and you could present that evidence to. who. my parents. anybody. trying to stop me doing it. a part of my conscience because i have a.

conscience that feels guilty if i i'm. looking at the clock all the time it. made me a very punctual person. but i also look at the clock out of. paranoia how much time have we got how. much time have i got and it shouldn't. matter at all to creativity that. but i find myself doing it all the time. you know i actually i i have a baby now. we have a nine-month-old daughter and. and and um adam ada adam. some people do pronounce it some of you. it is much better to be fair i learned. this but um.

lucy went out to kader out the other day. and because lucy's the absolute greatest. she was like it'll just give you a load. of time to just. have a guitar. you know next to you and think about. the things that you sort of you see what. i'm getting at she just gave me. hey you just do you for a bit. and gift it's a it's a that was a uh. incredibly generous given now i know. what it's like to be you know a. first-time parent and it's it's a it. takes a village um.

uh. and still an hour into that time i knew. i was an hour into that time because i. looked at the clock. i didn't need to. but i still carry it. uh. it's [ __ ] frustrating. was there any anyone in your circle at. that early age that made you feel like. that wasting. weight quote wasting time or not using. time in a evidently productive way was. meant that you were a lazy person yeah. is that it was.

that was part of the language of of of. who and what i grew up around. um. you know. yeah like i say like we didn't we. weren't a sort of. we weren't like a particularly wealthy. family neither were any of the sort of. friends that that. that my family had or that you know. everyone was somewhere between. working class and sort of just about. middle class. but i felt a lot of penny pinching all. the time partly probably because of what.

my parents come from so how they operate. so and it felt like middle class. came like later in life. i think my parents are there now but. like that's slightly sort of besides the. point what i mean is. um. time was precious. uh. and you had to the the the language. around. idle time was you know don't waste it. before anybody had thought about what.

anybody was doing with idle time they. were already being told not to waste it. that was a that was. yeah in my wider circle as a kid. around you know my my family and my. family friends and friends of friends. that was the energy. so there was like a pressure. and there was of course yeah a narrative. that that said. oh he just sits around all the time he's. so lazy not directly to me necessarily. but if anybody was doing any sitting. around of any kind for any prolonged.

amount of time. lazy. guy so it was a negative thing. and i felt a pressure and a sort of. self-conscious. need to stay away from that. while all the while i absolutely kind of. craved it for for being a creative kid. who wanted to draw and paint and explore. music did you get the impression that. people in your family and close to you. had high hopes for your future. you know i do think.

that they thought i really wanted. the kind of things i've achieved. i do think that they believed i wanted. this stuff. and i think they saw that. in my. how how i went about my days. um. i remember a friend of mine who's still. such a good friend of mine matt. we learned to play guitar together me. and tom who i mentioned who who plays. bass in my band. and and matt and my brother alex and i.

you know we were all playing guitars at. the same time learning to do this that. the other. and me and matt were doing our gcses and. we were in like a biology class. we did the same we had the same science. class. and we were talking and matt is a. brilliant beautiful soul. who. is sort of. he's a total party animal but he's. wonderfully sort of earnest in his own. way as well. and we were we were sharing the. pressures of what we're supposed to do. after our gcses after our a-levels are. we going to do uni oh my god who are we. going to be what are we going to do. and he said man.

one thing's for sure i don't think. you'll ever have an office job. and i knew how he meant it and i really. i really appreciated it and i've never. forgotten it and i think i've i've. brought it back to him i've brought it. up with him again. since. and in a strange way it felt like he was. a guy you know you asked what my parents. would say well he. was someone who was very close to me at. the time as well. who i felt believed in me. what's funny is he was one of 10 of us. who were all starting to play the guitar.

at the same time we all. looked at. jimi hendrix or the red chili peppers or. any of our our rock heroes. in the same way and we wanted it we. wanted that because you do when you're. 14. yeah i want to do that. and i remember this burning desire. and i can't tell you even to this day. whether it was the same or less or more. than any of the other guys. but in the moment i was dead certain. that i wanted it more than everyone. and i did sit with my parents some. nights with some music on the tv or on. the radio or or coming off the record.

player. and almost get emotional about how badly. i wanted to do that kind of thing make. that kind of. sound like when i grow up was the sort. of thing i was saying. and they didn't take the piss out of me. they were very straight faced about it. i think they like i think it excited. them and obviously they had no idea if. it was actually going to happen. but. they did encourage it so. my very long-winded answer to your.

question if you called them up is. yeah i think they i think they. would have believed or hoped that i'd. sort of got close maybe even half as. close as i've come. um. yeah and off you go to study music right. in brighton. um. it's it was it's really a wonderful. thing to hear that one of the real sort. of catalyst moments in your early career. was. just a clip of someone some punter in a. pub recording you. singing yeah that ended up on youtube.

youtube and i will say it was at a time. when. there were youtube sensations popping. into the charts getting signed by big. record labels very exciting because they. got 500 000 views overnight they put the. video up at 7 pm and by 7 am add million. views had 2 million views. that video that went online with me it. was there for six weeks or more. 25 views maybe. maybe 26 views. um. and i didn't i wasn't i hadn't thought.

about it i met the guy because he filmed. me and he said i'll put it online. you know he'll do like a little sort of. filter on it little edit. thanks man. great i'm just glad you you liked my. song. and i didn't hear about it until this. record label found it with its 25 views. and they called up my manager i had a. manager at the time still same manager i. got today. called him up and said we'd love we love. this we'd love to meet you meet james. um.

can we fly you to new york which was a. sort of that's where they were based. that the record label it was just a very. whirlwind exciting experience just to go. and meet these guys they just wanted me. to come and sit and sort of play for. them like in the flesh. and um and so i did and they went on to. be the label that i signed to after a. second visit and it was all very. exciting given that it feels like you. know that was one of a million open mic. nights that i was performing at at that. time just rolling up putting my name. down playing three songs moving on to. the next one what has that taught you. about. knocking on doors and you never know. which one's gonna open you know what i.

mean because. as you say people look at that and go. are [ __ ] so lucky you know but um. what does that what has that told you. about. the nature of how life happens and. i guess it's taught me to use the idle. time. my idle time in that in those years was. long empty evenings. that i filled with finding open mic. nights. to hone my craft sounds a bit. pretentious again but it's exactly what. i was doing it's exactly what i was. doing and it's exactly what i'm doing at. every gig i do today the only difference.

is that there seems to be some people. today who are actually there to see me. and they've done a bit of homework they. say they like my songs and that's so. flattering but every single show i do to. this day i just want to be a bit better. i just want to deliver a slightly more. effortless every time more effortless. hopefully more moving. and enjoyable experience for the people. standing in front of me back then. it was seven or eight maybe 11 or 12. people smattered around a bar privately. trying to have a drink probably after. work trying to catch up and i'm in the.

corner. barking. and they have they don't know who i am. and they haven't they haven't paid to. see me or anything and. i want their attention. and i don't just want their attention i. want the thing that i've written to be. good enough to effortlessly turn their. head. that's how it has to go. and i had a lot of time to fill with. those. um trials it was all trials uh it's all. training. um so i did and i remember earlier than.

when that thing was when that guy filmed. me in that bar i remember years before. that when for example i was taking a. couple of originals and a couple of. covers to an open mic night and people. really enjoyed my delivery of the covers. which was really encouraging. um. and then i'd do an original they i i'd. play the verse and they just talk. talking away and i play the chorus and. they're still talking then i'd play the. bridge. and a few heads would turn and i think i. go home that night thinking the bridge. has got something but the other bits. need work clearly the other bits need.

work because i didn't have them in the. verse and i didn't have them in the. chorus. but i had them in the bridge. and that's why it was all training and. so i go home this is when i'd moved to. brighton actually particularly. i had a lot of idle time between lessons. and. the course i was doing. and i filled it with just trying to be. better just soaking up i was going to. record shop this is just right before. streaming sort of exploded. uh it wasn't like a thing so i was. buying records still. um. the difference i suppose for my.

generation at times i put them on my. computer and stick on my mp3 and i could. walk around without a stack of cds in my. pocket. or in my bag anyway. i was soaking up as much as i possibly. could. [Music]. just trying to get better trying to. create. a more. enjoyable experience for anybody who's. in front of me because that's all i love. about music. and that's what i want that's why i want. to do it because. for some reason i want to be able to. create that for other people.

people often overlook that part but it. seems to be if there was a sort of a. through line or a common. thread between all the guests i sit here. with whether they're comedians or their. music artists the ones that have become. really successful and also really unique. and. and yeah unique is the right word really. unique. is you get this like bit before where. they were. performing to no one and kind of just. doing it for the love of it for. themselves and it seems to be that that. in fact that moment is the defining. moment when no one's there when there.

isn't the arenas and there's that part. there that 10 000 hours part that they. talk about. is the most important part. somehow i think it probably is. everything that might follow that or. that does or everything that followed. that for me has been so important. but there are moments in the very. beginning for anybody whatever they're. doing that are vital to how to what. happens next. um. 10 000 hours is is the right like. description and reference. um.

and all those open mic nights. and i was busking when i was in brighton. as well which is kind of wild you're. just walking down the street with a. guitar on your shoulder and then you. stop. amongst all the other people you're. walking next to and you have the balls. the confidence somehow the courage. to start singing at people in the middle. of the street. it was always terrifying until i was. sort of. getting into the first chorus of a song. and then i could almost sort of blend in. um. but but give it some to try and catch.

some people anyway. those all of that those times. they are vital. it's about. learning about what doesn't work it's. about sometimes you know. there's people who are like. hell-bent on. talking over you and they've every right. to. they've every right to. um if they haven't come to see you. intentionally or or it's not a private. you know actual sort of venue where.

people buy tickets to come up then. they've every right to and and it's how. it was always about how i managed in. those situations. i remember. going into noisy pubs that wanted to. hold an open mic night at the same time. and someone plugging me into a pa saying. go on i mean thinking this place is. rammed and they're all just having the. greatest night of their lives just. having a big old chat and they're. drinking their pints and all this and. i've gotta sing into this and i remember. being so excited. i remember thinking.

i'm gonna get them all. i don't know that it worked every single. time but i i remember winning over rooms. and leaving so these weren't open mic. nights actually i remember in between. the open mic nights there'd be some. individual who'd seen me and say will. you come and play at my pub which felt. like a real win. will you come and play at my pub on. thursday night on saturday night. whatever it might be sunday night. i say yeah all right and half the time. they'd say there's 20 quid in it for you. and i say all right absolutely. play for an hour sure.

you could pay me nothing to play for two. hours at that time and i'd have done it. i just wanted the opportunity the stage. the microphone the opportunity. and i remember yeah a couple of like. really busy rooms for the people who had. no idea who i was and i remember you. catch some eyes and people going oh. there he is you know another guy. plugging in a guitar. you know. let's all sort of speak up a bit when he. sort of pipes up. i remember thinking i'm gonna get you. it's interesting one of the really. interesting things i was just thinking. about as you're explaining that story is. how. the environment in which you started.

your career in those pubs noisy pubs. trying to you know get people's. attention. you described it as actually changing. the music you would go home and say okay. the chorus held them yeah but this part. didn't so the environment actually. changed the creative because you you. realize that attention. you learnt very early that their tension. is is the thing we'll all listen to a. good song. yeah. but you know people forget the ones that. aren't good enough. that's a that's a a quite a sort of. brutal sort of comment in itself because.

i i you know i can't guarantee that. every song i've ever written will hold. every room in the world every time. but i still love it enough to try it. again and try harder um so yeah it does. it does change to me it absolutely. changes the music because. until i changed those things. i was just playing i was playing. something that wasn't because i was. often going back to the same rooms. not always and it always eventually. changed but i would go back to the same. place because that's just another place. that i knew i could go and play a few. songs.

um. and if across a two-week period i didn't. get around to changing some stuff and i. still played the same song then it just. wasn't every time it wasn't working. every time i was getting them for the. same minute in the song maybe it was the. second chorus or something so yeah it. you have to adapt if you just keep. taking the same thing and ultimately. flogging a dead horse. i was never if i kept doing that i was. never going to. be on any any of the stages that i'd. seen my heroes on you know when i was a. kid at home and i was being affected by.

all that stuff i saw on tv on vh1 pop-up. video or even music in movies or or any. live stuff that i got to see on tv you. know that was broadcast on tv um i. dreamt about being on those stages in. front of all the people that my heroes. were in front of. so many people singing their words back. and i was never going to get there if i. just stubbornly took around the same. song that i wrote when i was 17 that i. might have thought in my heart of hearts. was so incredible. that doesn't matter i have to open my. mind up to what other people think and. accept it.

i was trying to understand and learn. that as a 16 year old 17 year old before. i got to brighton um. when we were me and my brother and and. tom we were in a band as. 13 14 year olds and then we were in. another one as 15 16 year olds and and. 16 17 and to 18 into 19 then i left the. bands kept changing i just said another. one and another one often i was moving. it on. right because. uh. something wasn't quite good enough and.

so i thought well let's change it into. this and let's change it into this thing. and let's tweak that bit and that bit. and let's make that bit better and we'll. change the band name and we'll be this. and it'll be fresh for people and then. we'll keep them. i don't know why i was thinking about. that back then in such a sort of like a. r kind of. mindset but. i was and i still sort of do. when you so six weeks after that clip of. you singing in a pub yeah um. six weeks after that clip goes online. you end up signing a record deal in new.

york right yeah it was there was two. visits to new york so it was probably. more like sort of a couple of months two. or three years for the story to say six. let's go six. it was actually it was 98 days yeah. and four hours very quickly after that. clip you end up signing this record deal. and then soon after that your first ep. comes yeah to the world the dark of the. morning yeah. five tracks i listened to it earlier on. oh yeah. wasn't on spotify so i had to go on. sorry about the music there you go okay. you're only 16 quid.

i wish it. thank you what was that like then that. first ep goes out into the world does. your life change at that point. um. there was a change. it all felt too fast i think once i once. i signed a record deal. as exciting as the initial sort of part. of the ride was. everything started to move quite fast. and in hindsight what i realized. i was nervous about the pace of things. but i had this.

huge. um. i don't know what to call it it's a. record label obviously this this this. this huge like backing this body of. people. who wholeheartedly believed in me and. wanted to sort of throw me kind of in at. the deep end but really just sort of. throw me in the ocean. where it's all really going on i've been. like on the shore training open mic. nights little shows solo acoustic stuff. whatever writing trying to get better. staying up all night writing using all. that idle time learning to swim learning. to swim.

and then they they basically looked at. me having visited uh new york a couple. times and played them some songs and. gone oh you're ready to be in the sea. you're not like surfing a big wave yet. but we're gonna put you in the c now and. i was like. whoa. um. so it it it was fast uh but within a. year you've got a headline sold out uk. tour yeah that was and and you know on. the one hand yes on the other hand it. was rooms full of 50 to 100 people but. they were all there to see me.

for the first time ever. they were all they'd all bought a ticket. because somehow they found my music. they'd found the ep which again like. because of where streaming was at it. didn't go straight onto spotify and. apple and all that stuff. it was some like soundcloud like thing. it wasn't even soundcloud that it went. on to where people had to go and find it. and they think they hadn't they had a. choice maybe to pay pay if they wanted. to which is kind of sweet burn camp days. kind of yeah but it wasn't okay in camp. i mean i don't know i wasn't there yet. but. um. so i had those songs. and they they were like let's record.

there was like couple of months between. signing recording that ep and releasing. it. it felt very fast and it was exciting. but yeah i've been in this training. mentality where which i was doing kind. of at my own pace i was trying to do it. all the time i was constantly training. as i say. but i didn't i didn't appreciate there. would kind of be an end to that in a way. in another respect i'm sort of still. training but at that time with what was. going on it was like no we're going to. step up a gear now and there's a few. more people involved and they're going. to push you onto bigger stages literally.

and metaphorically. um. so. i didn't feel fully ready for it and i'm. kind of glad i don't think you're. supposed to ever be completely ready for. any of these things. things move even faster from then on. right because your. your second eb comes out let it go and. your album comes out in the same year. album was march 2015. okay ep was was so same six months it. was 2014 into 2015. and uh let it go. um. had come out towards the end of the.

summer before and and then and then. the album in 2015 and. uh. i remember let it go as a song. i loved the song i've never known really. i can't write a song and say that's a. hit guys. that's just not. i can't i don't do that um i've tried. i've tried but it's not really sort of. my calling to be able to do that i write. the songs and i remember writing hold. back the river and everybody at the. label and my managers everyone sort of. jumping for joy and thinking that they. had a hit on their hands which is very.

exciting to be a part of and i think at. the time i thought really how do you. know that and then they worked they did. their thing they went to work and they. got that song around the world. and i got that song around the world i. suppose as well. um. and it kind of took off but let it go it. was an interesting moment because i. remember doing lots of different. festivals in america and all around the. world. i remember a place there's a festival. called outside lands which is in san. francisco or near san francisco. and um. i i got on stage in this sort of valley. type shaped bit of land.

throughout this outdoors festival. because there were sort of banks of. grass at the sides quite a big stage and. it felt like quite a lot of people saw. three four thousand people i was like. wow this is exciting. and they all sang the words to let it go. every single word particularly the. choruses and we filmed it as well like. on my phone or whatever and it was. amazing and i came off stage and the. promoter said. i hadn't i hadn't met him i was like one. of the newer artists on the festival he. said that was incredible he said you're. in front of 20 000 people. i there like no way. i said they were all yeah they're all.

singing the words he said yeah 20 000. people. singing the words he said we'll have you. back. i said thanks and i sort of went on my. way but um. that was a real moment where everyone. recognized that there was whole back of. the river and there was let it go as. well and let it go might be able to. carry this album as well so that was. things moved faster again i remember. actually as far as things moving fast. we got on a plane after that show in san. francisco at that festival we flew down. to l.a we crossed the airport we got on. a plane to australia we flew for 15. hours we did a show. in sydney.

and then we got on a plane and we flew. back to l.a and carried on the tour so. we went to. sydney to do a show for about we went to. sydney for about barely 36 hours. 30 of them are on a plane. where's the idle time. out of time on a plane is like not. whatever but it's all sort of cracked up. to be you can't get your guitar out and. start writing so um. i guess it's like emergency rest time in. a way and try and get your head down on. a plane which is as we all know kind of. tough but.

um. yeah it idle time starts to sort of. disappear a little bit and it felt like. writing a song in a hotel room on tour. felt like such a heavy cliche to me that. i was never very good at that either. i've got better at it now. but we had a lot of time in hotels and i. was crap at using that that idle time to. to write more songs. what did you feel like throughout that. process so you put you know you put the. album out um. in 2015. it was right so 2015 put the album out. that is a smash hit.

um. let it go one of my favorite songs oh. it's so funny because when i listen to. that song it takes me back to so many. times in my life yeah so many times in. my life. i was listening to it before and i. almost start to feel the feelings of. like. the relationship heartbreaking that i. was going through when i was when i was. that age funny man bro i played that. song all the time. all the time thank you. it's funny how music has that power of. just sending you back to. for what it's worth just as a sort of.

maybe an interesting little sort of side. fact i recorded that album at the end of. 2013 and at the beginning of 2014. i. took two stints. and it came out in 2015 um but i. finished recording in january 2014. uh. september 2020 was the first time i. listened to it after i finished. recording it well i just. i played those songs so much and i had. the time in my life but like i just i. didn't. you know it's gonna have something to do. with the bit of perfectionist in me and.

we all have a bit of that but like. so much sort of pressure. and hype felt felt heaped onto that. first release for me that first big. album release. that i couldn't listen to it. and i still don't really i mean i don't. i suppose typically i don't spend my. time listening to my music once it's out. i have to do so much listening as we're. finishing the productions and the mixing. and then once it's out it's it's less. for me. it's so much for the fans but. the the frenzy around that music on the.

first album. in a ways and i don't um. i don't resent anything or anyone here. but i it stopped me listening to it i. was playing those songs every day. somewhere in the world live. and um. yeah i didn't i didn't feel a need or a. desire to listen to it at all so it was. interesting. six seven years later listening sort of. for the first time and for the first. time listening and going this is decent. this is okay.

work harder though keep trying that's. really the other voice that sort of. rings in my ears. chaos in the calm comes out. davey's number one. that's crazy. yeah wow the things that that sort of. does to. you emotionally and psychologically and. that i it's a it's a. it's a little bit of a trauma in its way. actually i was this not to sort of drop. names um that's not really my style but. i was at a show a great artist called. maggie rogers who was just fantastic i.

know maggie and i'm a big fan at the. same time and i was watching the show. with sam smith. and niall from one direction um. three of us are watching the show in la. and it's like her her debut album show. and she's had a really great reception. particularly in america but in various. corners of the world as well. and it's a party it's like a big event. it's really fun and she's playing a. great show and sam said. she's about to go on a roller coaster. ride and it will involve trauma and it.

is trauma he said. and we know all about it. each each one of us three he was talking. to me and niall he said we know. what that's like and he said we know. that nothing could prepare us could have. prepared us for it and that nobody could. have made us understand it was going to. be traumatic in a way. um beforehand. and we we we see it now with maggie and. we're fans of hers and we're so excited. and we can't you can't communicate that. to someone and because i use the word. trauma it's good and bad. and again i wouldn't change a thing and.

i don't think sam would or nile or. maggie i don't think any of them would. change a thing about their ascents. that they went through. but you just said to me chaos from the. carmen's you know debut album went. straight to number one it did and it was. amazing. and i'm still trying to work it out to. this day. you know when i talk about sort of. trauma because it really affects and. changes. someone's life and changed my life. um and i love so much about what. happened and i would i would love to. experience that again.

um but also it it changed so much about. me and my life. and i'm still trying to work that out. does any of that make sense all of it. makes sense cool the part of the trauma. that changed you. what is that part. great expectations follow. that's difficult. and i thought my duty.

was to come with something brand new. again second album third album and i'm. i'm having a great time i've just put. out my third album and i'm i'm i can't. believe i even get to say that it went. in it was number four it's a top five. album not everybody got gets to say that. about their third album so i'm so. grateful for the reaction i really am. and yet there's a part of me that you. know. spent such a long time promoting that. first album after it came out that you. know. uh. i would like to create that exact same. experience again for different music. that i've made.

that is easier said than done. every single time the chances of anyone. getting a number one album at any time. there's only one number one spot you. know. me. as a lover of so much music. with so many influences and inspirations. different artists records songs. i put a handful of those into. at the end of the day i put a handful of. those into my first album what inspired. it you know and then that created uh me.

as an artist and i arrived you know the. shock of the new. on my debut album and a bunch of people. around the world said yeah. i'll buy that literally and. metaphorically i'll buy that i'm into. that. and i represented something to them. i can't believe that to this day i can't. believe i represented something to them. that they were willing to sort of buy. into and want to share and kind of agree. with and feel the words and the melodies. in in their way. and then another album it's time for.

another album. it was about. showing a different side to myself. and i appreciate now in the fullness of. time with the greatest perspective or. with greater perspective. years after my second album release. that only i am in my head. nobody else is. so um. it was interesting who. uh received the second album who who.

of all the people that got on board for. the release of my first album and. followed my music and me as an artist. some of them came for the second album. some of them i guess kind of went oh. it's not the same thing so. i'll just sort of come back when maybe. it's i don't i can't sort of speak for. people. but um. my expectation. naively was that i could do the same. thing again by surprising people with. something they hadn't had before because. they hadn't had my debut album before. and um. it didn't quite go.

the way i hoped it would go. as i say that i don't want to sound. ungrateful because i had. so many people around the world. really love my second album. and i'm so grateful for those people. um. it peaked at number two in the album. charlotte yeah i can't i really cannot. complain in the slightest and when the. one above it is this it's a soundtrack. to a movie it was the greatest showman. that that just. reigned supreme for so long in 2018 at. the top of the charts there was various. number of other artists who didn't.

unfortunately sort of beat. that soundtrack either so they all kind. of went to number two as well. but it did it peaked at number two. people loved it and they're still. telling me that they do and i'm you know. it's there's a there's a real sort of a. clash between. my gratitude towards all of those that. reception and the other part of my. brain that i suppose bought into the. hype of my first album and wanted the. same frenzy. in hindsight now if you could go back.

and you could just move the order of. things. you know what i'm going to say right you. could just move the order of things. would you. maybe put you know. electric light first oh good i don't. know because then that would have. managed the expectations right the. expectations was always the curse of. happiness it's always the killer thing. because if i told you when you were. whatever age yeah your album would date. would peak at number two in the album. charts you'd be the [ __ ] moon i would. leak yeah. jump for joy yeah definitely.

sorry that's awesome. we go again on that i would jump for joy. i did not mean that sorry but would you. move the order of things honestly no. no. no no no no no no. i wouldn't move the order of things at. all um because the psychological. difficulty. comes from. purely the fact that you have to almost. compete with your own success right yes. it does but it was all my choice at the. end of the day and i do stand by i love. electric light and um it came when it. came i i what's interesting is.

electric light i'm so proud of and i. adore it every song it was also a. reaction to what i felt personally to me. was was like almost overkill on my first. album i had had enough. of. who i was when i was roaming around the. world. on the chaos and the calm campaign. what i represented and the songs that i. was playing. i needed to stop all of that for a. minute.

for two reasons one it was exhausting. i'm. i keep wanting to throw this in i was. very grateful to have that experience. like beyond grateful. but i just for my soul and my mental. health i needed to. creatively kind of go elsewhere. um. uh so so. so i did and i also just had like i say.

to you as a creative. more than one thing or one set of things. inspires me to do what i do. and i wanted to celebrate that in the. music i created for a second album. so i. went deep on david bowie and blondie and. prince and lcd sound system all that. list of artists and more i love love. that music. and uh. i don't know that that resonated in the. same way with all the fans of the first. album it certainly did with some of them. and maybe it didn't so much with others.

um. i can't control any of that. the only thing i can control is what i. create. and that i do there is there is so much. of a part of what i create that i do for. myself which i think is the same for. every artist. um. so. so i chose to do that. uh. so you see what i'm saying in ways it. was a reaction. to. something i needed to do as a reaction. to how my first album campaign had gone. we wouldn't have changed the the things. around you know the order of things when.

you when you spoke about mental health. yeah when was your first sort of. introduction to mental health good. question um because it of course has. become so. talked about in the last five years it's. suddenly become like. more okay than ever to speak openly. about it my first introduction to mental. health when i asked that question i mean. you're i remember at one point thinking. so the timeline of my relationship with. mental health is people with mental. health at one point maybe 10 15 years.

ago when i was younger i thought it. meant that you were crazy and then as as. i experienced things myself and then. there was a word for them i understood. that we all have mental health yeah and. that we're all none of us are too tough. to experience different mental health. predicaments at times and then going. through my own journey with mental. health that's when i was like ah okay i. understand now. as a kid i thought it meant someone was. unhappy and you couldn't help them. depressed. and and unable to be helped um.

and as i grew up. i remember struggling with you know as a. teenager. to be male and talk about your. feelings. wasn't. the should never be the sort of first. choice. i i remember feeling like it was. it was more about can you suck it up. though it's like your dad talking. my dad has been. been on his own journey with mental. health previous to me even being.

born he he had some struggles and he did. he did talk to some professionals about. it and i really respect that. so actually it wasn't my dad talking. um. it's funny though. he comes from those kind of attitudes. both my parents come from those kind of. attitudes. you know. it's that stiff upper lip thing again. that kind of brush it all under the rug. thing again.

i come from that. you know difficult things we don't talk. about then or we shout about them. no in between. and i didn't want the chaos of. the shouting as a kid and as a teenager. i never wanted that. it was always too much to deal with. so. i joined the sort of brush it under the. rug brigade. um. and.

so it took me until i was into my 20s it. took me until i was touring. extensively and relentlessly. so really only five six maybe seven. years ago for me to sort of finally. understand that life can take a toll on. people. when it's when it when it's relentless. when work is relentless or when anything. in life is sort of relentless and. weighing down or bearing heavy. it can take a toll and it's okay.

to talk about that to try and relieve. some pressure and some strain and some. stress. that came as a result of various. individuals that i was touring with or. that i knew doing their own touring. needing to stop for a bit. maybe speak to a therapist. to help them. and that it was okay. so it only came in the last sort of. few years for me. reading back through your story 2019 was. a bit of a mixture that's when you did. the tour with uh ed sheeran. and i i was reading about almost this. conflict that you're undergoing which is. i need to show up and perform and be who.

i you know who i have this. responsibility to be but also this other. conflict of like you just weren't. feeling good. yeah. uh. i sort of encountered various sort of. people fans. or not or people i work with or people. interviewing me or whatever who and this. is ultimately like really quite. flattering they think i'm. you know. i don't know how to put it other than. like bigger than i feel i am.

as an artist. i don't know if i agree with them. and so i felt like an imposter syndrome. essentially in that time. uh on the one hand i'm being you know. it's really disproportionate and and and. probably unhealthy when i think okay ed. sheeran has invited me to open for him. in football stadiums around europe for. three months there's 80 000 people every. night. wow. and the bit i hate to admit and i'm.

anxious to confess is that there's a. part there's a voice in my head saying. why aren't you doing the stadiums you. call myself all sorts of names. why isn't it your show. come on. i feel. ridiculous saying that. i also just it's a little embarrassing. because. i'm doing good. and. i don't want to sort of get ahead of my. station or i don't want to seem like big.

headed but i tell you i am very. ambitious and driven. everybody is i understand that and i am. in my way. and so i do want those kind of. uh. rewards of selling out such an enormous. venue and so many and so often. in the way that. he adds an example and and also i will. say that. he he was kind enough to have me on that. tour as the main support act who would. go on. right before him there was three of us.

most of the time. you know open a second opener me the. third opener and then him. and it it was pretty. wonderful and exciting to find that in. in. almost every stadium it was it was a. third of that crowd which rounds out. approximately 20 or 30 000 people. singing all the words to my songs which. was just. again i was very thankful in that moment. that he brought me in front of such big. crowds because it was exciting to see. that i. my music was still reaching.

and it stopped my ambitions and my drive. feeling silly. the bit the bit i was a little bit. confused about there is you're saying. you felt like an imposter in those. moments but the voice is saying so i. would expect the voice in your head to. be saying why are you here but the voice. in your head is saying why aren't you at. the top of the bell why isn't it your. show why don't you have your own stadium. show or you know even a you know arena. show or whatever it may be why your. crowd's not bigger yet james. gosh that's such an insidious thought. isn't it because.

if you're. james bay big and you still. have that voice whispering about that. [ __ ] me yeah it's pretty [ __ ] intense. and i appreciate. that like. it's probably a bit cruel. cruel is a good word. it's just a it's a standard issue i. suppose it's a sort of sorry it's a. standards issue it's i i you know i'm. holding myself to a standard that. might be unrealistic but then i'm so. driven and i f or i feel so driven and.

ambitious to achieve those kinds of. things that i can't shake that. voice. where's that voice coming from. deep inside um. deep inside because it's it's it's sort. of a voice i recognize from. various chapters of my life. uh. it's. on the one hand i was i was too sort of. timid and uninterested in in drinking. and partying as a teenager to sort of go. out and get amongst it on the other hand.

that voice was talking to me back then. saying. don't waste your time doing that james. get better at songwriting get better at. singing get better at playing guitar. to the point where it's it's you know. you're able to confidently play well. and and make it look effortless. get to that point. and then you know then maybe we can have. a night off well you got to that point. i'm still i'm still yeah i'm still.

working. in my mind is there not a bit of a fear. in in terms of listen if i'm if i'm. playing in a big arena there's 20 000. people they're all singing the words. back to me and i still have that voice. whispering inside my head saying this is. not enough or you've not achieved enough. then that voice will always be there. regardless of the the height or how high. you are i think so. i think therefore trying to kind of come. to terms with it is one of my big. exercises at the moment because it's. holding your happiness hostage right. kind of yes and i know that it's winding.

up my managers for example who i've have. a very close and long-standing. relationship with people i cherish. and they're saying james like mate. um. you you've got to sort of reign that in. you've got to try and find a way to. round that in because. because it's okay. more okay then i've i'm i'm able to. realize half the time so. um. and i don't want to jeopardize my. relationship with them or or all sorts.

of people. um. i'm working out therefore that i can. potentially control. some of the unhappiness. and and make my life better and easier. as a result. i'm just trying to. tame. the various voices. what do those voices say today. they say.

some of them say well it's very nice to. be here. you've been invited to. talk on this on this podcast that's had. so many exciting guests. some of those voices say. yeah they just they had someone pull out. so they've got you last minute because. you know they you know there was someone. exciting who. who you know who clearly. you're a backup you're just you're just. a backup you know you're just somebody. who they thought all right i guess you.

know there's a there's a voice that's. quite extensive in those kind of details. and and sort of takes me apart a little. bit. um so it's it's versions of one of that. one voice and it's versions of that. other voice that are. speaking. often in my head and and that's what. they're saying. all of these voices they have they have. adverse consequences some of those. consequences are positive. in the light of the world they turn into. drive and motivation or perfectionism. right which end up producing really. wonderful art obviously some of the. consequences of those voices can be very.

um personally as it relates to your. happiness detrimental right. talk to me first about because i want to. talk about the positives that those. voices that have you know manifestation. on that side but talk to me about the. the. negative detrimental impact of being. having those voices. the longer i sort of exist with these. voices the the the the negative ones um. the more they can have an effect. unfortunately a negative effect the more. that they can sort of um.

they can. stop me going out into the world and. doing certain things. you know the more they can get into my. head and sort of inhibit my ability to. sort of. speak to you in a free-flowing way for. example. or. um. go to a party i've been invited to by an. artist i might know or by by somebody. whose work i might admire i'm being sort. of hypothetical in that respect but it. could very much sort of be a that could. be a reality.

and the benefits of coming and speaking. to you and the benefits of. going to some party or whatever. are just that those are the things that. color life and that's that's just a good. thing um. but sometimes the voices get so loud. that that i don't go and do these things. and i and and. i my life remains kind of gray. just personally and privately. and that's not helpful to when i get. that idle time back.

in the moments that i do. because all the things that color life. feed. wonderfully in my most of my experience. into that idle time. whether i do create something or not. um. so they they are an obstacle they are a. barrier. those those negative voices and. i'm trying to grow and get better at. sort of managing them and dealing with. them. and understanding that no voices.

no narratives kind of go away entirely. happy or sad. they they don't. you know 2019 was a difficult year and. i've learned since then. through various types of therapy. one of those is songwriting for me. another one is typical sort of therapy. as we know it speaking to somebody. i've i've i've learned a little bit more. about. sort of being able to quiet the the. negative voices or control them a little. bit. um.

you can never do any one of these things. a hundred percent. i'm i'm learning um and there's a part. of my mind that wants a hundred percent. yeah here they are everywhere 100 be the. headliner at this thing 100 be able to. stop those voices so they never come. back. and i'm just still sort of trying to. learn that there's no 100 anything. anywhere. everything is a as a gentle sort of. balance. that's a really liberating thought. though because there's so many people. that are still struggling with things. after many decades and that will beat. themselves up because it's still there.

yeah and and i actually had this. conversation this week this weekend i. think this weekend yeah it was on. saturday morning with my girlfriend. where i said one of the things i've come. to learn from doing this podcast and. just my own sort of early traumas is. that we shouldn't hold ourselves to the. standard of completely riddling. ourselves of our trauma or insecurities. it's really about diminishing the power. they have over you to the point that. your decision making can be made through. another set of stories yeah so like with. relationships we had a lot of traumas so. i still have those and i'm still i still.

think to some degree a relationship is. prison maybe 40 percent now it's still. there but the 60 percent is like you're. being an idiot [ __ ] get on with it. and it's 60 rather. you know so it makes the decision but so. yeah. perspective. trying to sort of gather a better and a. broader perspective. on your present circumstance or whatever. or me on my present sort of circumstance. trying to sort of get the full context. certainly helps the negative voices.

quiet down a little bit in 2019 you said. you described it as feeling like you. were drowning yeah and that was. definitely had a lot to do with the the. the negative voices and feeling like. they were all getting way too loud and. way too much and way too overpowering. and and it could feel at times like i. was sort of drowning in those and there. was such a stark contrast between the. walking on stage with the big sort of. smile and the and the ground gestures. and the performance. because that's a real spike in the day. it's a real high it's wonderful and it's.

a real process and i know it to the. point that a lot of it. is sort of like muscle memory. i'm in the moment no question i'm in the. moment i'm very present. but i know how to do all sorts of things. on stage and i know i'm good at them and. i've done them for 35 minutes and i'm. off stage and the voices are back i'm. walking down the steps from the stage. and the voices are back in there um. saying what. saying could have been better. saying. they're just waiting for ed sheeran on. that tour so which they were granted but.

like. um. they'd take even something like that. that was okay you know it's okay that. you know it's very exciting and. flattering and humbling that i've been. invited to open on that tour. and that's what it is. but the voices were turning those things. around on me. and saying and using them as a reason to. tell me i wasn't good enough what has. therapy taught you about that. those voices well the things i've just. said really they've it's therapies. taught me. um.

very sort of. crucially it's taught me that they're. not going to go away entirely and i. think that's been a really important. thing to learn and talk about again and. again and again because i can be quite. um. uh. i can't think of the word but i i would. absolutely like like to work out how. what the ingredients what the recipe is. to get them to go away forever i'd like. to know what it is. and use it and be done with it and never. hear from them again and so therapy's. teaching me still.

that. um. it's actually it's not that's not the. process the process is about. talking. with them and asking them hey you know. reasoning with myself. reasoning with them. bringing in more context. um. bringing in a broader perspective. and then asking myself you know. are these voices right honestly. because in the worst moments i'm saying. yet you're absolutely right to all these. voices and i'm not good enough.

in 2019 when you feel like you're. drowning what are the symptoms of that. what are the what would i what are they. that's a heart that's a good question a. hard one to answer the symptoms are so. invisible to most people everybody. really. and often me. because i'm i i feel a sort of duty. sadly sometimes in my personal life. private life as well to be so on. so much of the time sometimes as a you. know like a sort of drug i use to keep. myself high.

it feels like that. because that means that i don't have to. feel the sort of despair. um. you know i again like when i go back to. my parents my my family my home life. they had lots of people around very. social people. and everything was very. um up. or it was shouting. and. fury. or it was like calm water. there was no in between. um. and it sort of it turned me into this.

person where. you know if if if there are two sides. and a river in between. and. you know there are two banks and i'm on. one bank and i want to get to the other. bank. um. i always try and jump over the river. uh and that's not that's that i need to. get better at getting in the water. getting a bit wet. wading through against the currents that. are trying to send me downstream. and like climbing out the other side.

and drying off and it all taking the. time that it takes because you typically. like the river i'm talking about is. never any less than like. 20 feet wide so i'm not jumping over it. you can't. i can't fly. i'm gonna have to just get in the water. and go through what is the river in that. metaphor um. the river is so many things in that. metaphor. uh it's all. it's it's the the river is the dealing. with those voices. it's probably confronting you know some.

of the issues that i've carried forward. from. from my sort of childhood. if not a lot of those issues. the river is. the fighting within an imposter syndrome. an issue with imposter syndrome. um. the river is kind of a lot of the sort. of demons that i have ultimately um. but but but getting in the water would. give me sort of perspective. and wading through.

that teaches a lot probably about like. it being everything being about the. journey rather than the destination. in my in my household at home it was. about. we're furious we need to get to not. furious so we'll force ourselves. straight there by blocking things out. and there'll be no processing and. talking about who feels what and how and. how it makes them fit this out the other. um. the perspective is. is. you know very important zooming out in.

in my life i find is is helpful very. often. somebody actually not to go off on too. much of a tangent here but it really. resonated with me only a couple of days. ago someone from my label was telling me. about her time a long time ago now. actually but she was working with the. bee gees and it was in the early 90s. and their household name to us today we. know everybody knows that bg's music. like they know. other household names and. this lady was talking to me she was. saying she said i was about to turn 34. and i was working with barry gibb.

and he said um. what do you think of my music what do. you think of me as an artist she's been. quite open with him about i'm about 10. 34 i'm ancient people in pop music think. they're ancient beyond 21. everybody. um. and he he said no you're not no you're. not in that ancient they'd be silly. because he was in his 50s or something. at the time. he said what do you think of my music. what do you what do you know about me. she says you're a legend she said you're. just you're a household named legend i. love all your records you're brilliant.

he said you know what he said to her. when i was 33 i just got divorced i've. fallen out with my brothers. um i hadn't had a song on the radio for. years. uh if we were doing any gigs we were. playing working men's clubs. this was the late 70s i think. and he said i was 33 and we'd had our. initial sort of spike our high our hits. late 60s very early 70s. we had it all and it went away and i. always believed.

that in pop and in music and in. entertainment you have you you have your. big moment and then it's all down from. there. um. he said and then someone offered us the. opportunity to write a soundtrack for a. movie the movie was saturday night fever. and obviously ever since then you know. he's talking as a 50 something year old. he said it's just been up and up and up. from there. and now you're telling me i'm a. household name he said i unfortunately. if i'm honest he said i still struggle. with all sorts of these demons that i'm. not good enough and having this and that. success.

but he said i've got more perspective. now and i appreciate. when you tell me that you know you think. my work is so. well known. and i thought. before all that that it was all over i. just thought it was a decent bit of. wisdom from obviously yes granted he's a. total legend and. you know he's. gonna be quite a good example in that. respect but like. so easy to slip into that mindset of. like it's all done you've had your time. but life is long. hmm. i'm trying to remind myself for that.

knew what 31 yeah. [ __ ] nuts ancient knife. that is so most people don't start their. careers by that point yeah i i. yeah. i guess. you know. but the drive is there i keep coming. back to things i've said before the. ambition is there i've. you know i'm very hungry to to. be doing it. what are you hungry for. connection.

so my favorite thing about where does. that come from. um in music. performance. creating creating writing recording. releasing performing. there in all of that is so many. opportunities for connection not just. for fans but with people i work with as. well i cherish my working relationships. i don't love. lots of people coming in and out of my. my sort of work circle i like to grow. with people is there this weird paradox. of the thing you're chasing in terms of. like you know that peak again you talked.

about this like big moment that you were. you know you stood there and you watched. this young artist who you know is going. to go through it. but at the same time knowing that there. comes a real cost with that. that because i sometimes when i speak to. musicians it's i have that a lot where. they're like. i think i'm thinking of craig david who. i think he had his one number one album. at 18. you know quite honestly says you know. i'm looking for that moment again but it. was also pretty much the worst moment of. my life. and it's funny man yeah and it does come.

back to that when i referenced trauma. and maggie's concert and sam what he was. saying and. um. it's funny how that that that works but. we see. there are some real. one-in-a-millionaires. who might have two three four. consecutive. peaks. um. and. all. everybody else looks at that and even. the people who go through that look at. it as like but something could be better.

it's funny i can't explain that and i. suffer from it like so many people do. um. but if nothing else. it's because i really care about and. love what i do and i really want to be. in it i really want to be. kind of on the pitch. i've. slipped into a football analogy but for. good reasons or for like slightly toxic. insidious like. because i love the game. for good reasons. are you sure. yeah you're sure it's good reasons oh.

yeah i'm talking about the. the accolades here though because number. one is just a comparative measure so. okay and actually i'm the same i'm. playing devil's advocate for the sake of. conversation that's that's fair and. number one is just a comparative measure. there's nothing inherently special about. it other than you are better than. someone else i can't on that just. quickly on that i can't tell you how. many times uh people i work with have. sort of like and and me as well we've. we've gone wow our grammy would be great. wouldn't it yeah that would be awesome. and we've also said like five would be. awesome and we all know that 10 would be.

incredible. and just off the top of my head a. household name legend called david bowie. got one i think posthumous. grammy award for a music video. and the the grammy award one for the. music video is just as valid as the rest. of them but it's a little further down. the list. you know the big record of the year. artist of the year all those ones are. the the most exciting ones. apparently and um. and he didn't suffer it seems for for. that one music video.

grammy award. and there's a handful of my other. absolute favorite artists of all time. who have recognized all around the world. who haven't got near to. certain awards ceremonies or whatever. and it just couldn't matter so but i. suppose my point is that i've found it. unfortunately easy to get wrapped up in. the hype of those. those things. um. i hate to confess that. but part of my working through it all is. is. getting out into the open so i can hear. it sort of with my own ears as well.

because. music is not those things it's. so much more than that and that's why i. fell in love with it as a small child. in a way that i feel is the same as i. love it now. i love it just as much i'm just as blown. away by great music. as i was when i was i don't even know. how young. let's talk about your new music sure. your new album you know. yeah let's we can do that i struggle i. struggle talking about my stuff.

um. but let's talk about it why do you. struggle talking about it. uh your body language has shifted. somewhat yeah because. i feel like a salesman. oh right. um that's fine no i you know i. also the other reason i feel like a. salesman sometimes you know but also the. other reason is that like. these songs that. they mean a lot to me i just i write.

about things that. mean a lot. in my life you know there's been a. degree of sort of vulnerability that. i've sort of gone to in the writing of. these songs for this new album leap. that i don't feel i have been able to. tap into before and reach. so um this is why i asked you the. question about your affectionate parents. right. because you've clearly been on that. journey of learning how to be a. different type of um vulnerable. you know the yeah you talk about it like.

the thank you i love you vulnerable yeah. yeah that's why i was searching for when. i asked that question at the start. whether you had a lot of i love you. thank yous at home i'm just remembering. that whatever i said was sort of we just. laughed because it was so [ __ ]. stunted whatever i said go on sorry no. that's the point that was that's why i. asked the question because you know. you've been on that journey of trying to. be a different type of vulnerable yes. yes um and that's becoming more evident. yeah. i i you you're feeling it does in this.

new music 100 i'm really glad and that. you feel that because i'm trying to. access that for all the reasons that. you're sort of circling around actually. yes that optimism as well comes through. in a big way well and when you talk. about you know i'm trying to access a. different kind of affection i am and i. had said to you i am trying to access. that and i had said to you. that i felt like i was i have grown up. to be a different kind of affectionate. than than the people i grew up around my. immediate family um yeah i'm not afraid. to say that because i don't criticize. them.

um for how they were affectionate it was. different. it was different and as a result and. i've talked about it um and i will talk. about it now like in the writing of this. album. it's taken me going into a. a new depth of vulnerability to find. ways to say in songs. these things i love you these things. like i need you these things like thank. you. because those those phrases were not. thrown around freely in my in my house. it's not to say they didn't exist in my.

house when i was a kid it's not to say. they didn't exist there. but i'm not used to that. environment. but i want it. and i've had a baby and i i i want it in. her life and i didn't write these songs. when she was she wasn't here yet when i. wrote these songs but for half of them i. knew she was on the way. so it changed my perspective again and. it probably did affect the writing. um but it. it's it's it's all you know. sort of so honest that it that it's of.

course rooted in. feelings that are about me. uh and how i feel. and i just i'm trying to change the. landscape. my immediate sort of landscape in my. life my personal life. and that's why songwriting is such a. therapy can be such a therapy for me. because those those very personal issues. and scenarios will will come out in my. songs. and then i'm i'm actually glad to say. that i've i've arrived now on this third. album with songs that manage to say. those affectionate things that we've now.

listed a number of times that i'll. happily list again but probably feel a. little probably make me feel a little. bit uncomfortable so funny but yeah. there's a song called there's a whole. bunch of songs this album i could. happily and easily reference but one. life has been a big moment one life is a. song that has been a was a big turning. point in the writing. i love the gesture i've only got one. life and i want you in it um as a lyric. uh as a notion who's that for lucy. 110 000. what does she mean to you everything.

why. she knew me before i. you know got near. the music industry. i think she she knew me who went. together but she knew me but like. intimately as a friend before. i even. was certain how much i i definitely. wanted to leave my safe little hometown. venture into the big wide world and try. and. do music.

um. [Music]. and she's. wanted to sort of stick with me ever. since and there were many years when we. had no idea. where it was going or if it was going. anywhere and we're still not certain. we still we still live every day like. it's like it could all be gone tomorrow. and i and and. you know as a result in the healthiest. way i can possibly express i feel like i. need her. she's got the most um.

healthy and brilliant [ __ ] radar. i've ever met. you know. mine's not so good. mine's sort of attracted to the shiny. things. and the shiny possibilities and she's. like. i suppose i'll say she's got my back. often better than i have. um have you told her how much you. appreciate her in person. i hope so. i i.

i. i do try to. and you know what. in a beautiful way. she'll say yeah i shout. you know she'll say like. yeah all right. she'll she will give me the time of day. but she's steely and i love that. and she's driven. and she's ambitious for me for us for. her for our family. but i do tell her.

i do talk to her about it. what do you think your life would be. like without her. god forbid. calamitous. tragic. difficult. difficult. um. she sort of helps. tame my kind of. wild emotions.

she absolutely sort of she knows them so. well and she she i mean i think it's. important to say like. and i do the same for her. she knows how to let them kind of run. wild and free. but she knows how to sort of. sharpen my focus. when i'm struggling to do it for myself. um. yeah.

she's quite vital. and i'm very okay with saying that. uh. we've been on a journey man we've you. know. we really have. and i can't you know we continue to to. get to be on one and that's just. it's so important to me. it's a beautiful balance. it's a beautiful balance. it's a it's a beautiful thing to to hear.

i mean. you've known this person since you're. seventeen uh i've noticed i was 15 15. you got together when you were 17. so. you've been together somewhat 13 14. years now that's. that's one hell of an achievement and uh. especially because you often hear that. those earlier relationships when you. really are changing and figuring out who. you are are the hardest to ever hold on. to because it's kind of like how is the. analogy i always think of it's almost. like two parallel lines but at the start. of our lives there these parallel lines. are like. the variance in terms of the direction.

that they can go in is so far you can. become completely different person in. your 20s yes and when you're 14 you. don't know who the [ __ ] you are yeah. fitting in so to survive all of all of. those chapters. it's amazing i can't explain it fully. it feels like a wonderful sort of. coincidence sometimes that we've you. know we've. we all here we are all falling through. life. and our paths have never veered too far. away from each other's.

there's something. about it that all kind of just comes. down to chance which i love because she. never. compromised especially in the earlier. years she had an opportunity through the. degree that she did to go to america for. a year and she did it and we decided to. sort of hold on to each other in that. time i didn't get to go. but we sort of said we'd. we'd be together and just sort of see. you on the other side sort of thing but. that's where chance goes out the window. because that's hard work true and this. is and this is some with the soul mate.

analogy which can sometimes be a little. bit dangerous is. it ken i was asked if i believe in cell. mates the other day and i didn't know. what to say. um because like yes and no right like. yeah because we. yes but. it was i suppose as i look back in a. sort of pragmatic kind of fashion. at that moment when she went away. it was such a big scary big wide world. moment for her. and i went into my first year living. away from hitching my hometown first. time ever that i was like on my own. doing my shopping for myself or like you.

know. paying the rent for myself. and to check in with each other every. other day. when the time uh difference allowed on. skype or whatever it was. or a very expensive text message. was so. critical. to. us. feeling all. right and all anybody's ever trying to. do. whatever age they are it's just feel all. right.

um. she. helps me do that did back then and still. does and i i know i do the same for her. you know she's like a sort of anchor. and you know the rest of me is sort of. floating around in a stormy sea how much. did that go into this album leap how. much of that those feelings towards her. and that new sort of ability to be a. little bit more vulnerable uh more than. ever before. um. i i've been very honest in all of my. lyrics that i've ever written really but.

but vulnerability requires me to. being vulnerable in my sort of lyric. writing requires me to kind of. be more direct and and and open up and. be more open and talk about. what i'm talking about in the songs. um. so so much of of. of. what. she means to me. went into this album.

in a more vulnerable and more direct way. than it ever had before. um. and we were actually at a point i felt. like it was overdue in a way because. our choice our choice together. has been. in the last nearly 10 years. where people have known about me in some. capacity in some public capacity and. i've you know. gone around the world and sold tickets. to shows and. released music and all of this stuff and. been on tv a bit whatever.

our choice together has been to keep our. private life quite private but then. there was a moment where it felt like. she didn't exist and that was just awful. it felt like that we were living a lie. so it's overdue in a way that i'm. saying this is lucy she's the she's like. one whole half of me. and. more than that here's here's what she. means to me. so on the one hand it's the first time. i've been more sort of public about. talking about my my relationship on the.

other hand it's a total celebration. and rightly so. um. if she was sitting here now listen to me. say that she'd be like cool down. simmer down like you're getting a bit. over because she's most humble person. i've ever met but um. yeah it was it was sort of time. why leap. we need another two hours for that that. um um. because. it's something i needed it's a bit it's. it's been a bit of a mantra as a word.

um i i sort of needed to it i've needed. to hear it i've needed to use it. i've needed to say it i've needed to. exercise it. uh. leap in the net will appear is a is a is. a phrase a quote from a guy called john. burras. he said leap in the net will appear. i read that. and it sort of blew me away. because i'm so paranoid about the net. where it is when it's going to be there. how strong it is will it hold.

i hate to admit. i feel like i'm sort of revealing a side. of myself that i'm quite sort of. self-conscious about but i'm very. concerned about the net. and i'm quite um can be so reluctant to. leap. i if that's surprising to people because. they think i sort of spend my life. getting up on stage that's a different. thing i know that might be confusing in. itself but it's just something i i do. and i know how to do and i love and i've. compartmentalized it in a different. place in a different way.

but just to leap in many respects sort. of. literally. uh. figuratively spiritually whatever i. struggle. what is the cost if we don't leap. you'll never know. you know. you'll never know if the net will appear. i think we want the net to appear we. want to leap do something wonderful in. the air and land safely. and if you don't leap there's no. wonderful in the air.

and there's no landing safely. so you've not gone anywhere or done. anything. and then you probably did. interestingly as well i think. regardless of really what happens in the. air i think like um. the leap itself is the is life and i. think it also almost seems to be the. case like regardless of what happens in. the air you land safely part of it seems. to me that even if you land on your back. you land comfortably but i've struggled. to trust this yeah yeah. and there's been some voices in my head. that have really.

um stopped me sort of trusting those. that beautiful. sort of concept that you've just sort of. presented there was your concept well. it's john burroughs no. um. can't have it back. no it's the way that you put it was. really great and and. so i've looked at it from all angles. yeah if it's my concept then then i've i. have looked at it from an angle that. from which i do celebrate it enormously. which is also the way i think you. delivered it then but i've i've also. sort of looked at it from a nervous.

standpoint and not and not moved. but. in in a fight against. and in a campaign against the negativity. that i've struggled with in the last few. years. and actually a lot in my life it's not. just about 2019. i just was having a particularly. difficult time that year. um. i i wanted to use it as as a as an album. title to represent so much of what is in.

these songs so much of the heart in. these songs is about. in the face of difficulty i have i have. this and this and i have you and that. references lucy quite directly most of. the time. you know that's the you i'm talking. about um. it's about silver linings. i've struggled to see them when they've. been there sometimes. and i just needed to make music. that's that that. celebrated and represented them to.

remind myself. um because yeah sometimes i feel like. i'm drowning 2019. before 2019 you know. um but there is there is there is. leaping always as an option. hindsight seems to tell us that the. greatest risk is taking no risk at all. you know the greatest well the most the. most costly leap would be taking no leap. because if you think about that and. ultimately it means it means a life of.

stagnation it means no. challenge it means no excitement it. means no heartbreak if you never put. yourself in a situation to even be you. know and yes so um and i've seen that. throughout my life is just that you know. sometimes when i when i think about risk. actually it's a real. misunderstanding of what the risk. actually is the risk actually was it's. funny because when i tell people i. dropped out of university started a. business this business made 700 million. whatever they go oh my gosh you're so. courageous and my head has always. struggled with that concept right i was.

courageous or brave. because in my head the courageous and. brave thing to do. was staying at university. right that was the risk the risk was. staying and potentially ending up in a. life that wasn't for me the cowardice. thing to do. was. leaving and and going for it that was. the coward approach so i think sometimes. if you like really like analyze yeah you. know and sort of kind of swap the all. around you can be a bit more empowered. you throw a bunch more perspective at it. yeah exactly and sort of life context.

and and yeah it's their life context. people don't realize that they're gonna. die someday. you know what i mean and i i think about. that a lot i have a sound timer i don't. know if it's behind me it's worth. reminding is that in the bottom corner. yes that's why it's there we're looking. at that guy yeah because that's the only. way you can really see. time yeah i think humans struggle with. finality. and infinity. the two concepts that something can end. and that it can last forever we don't. think we we really don't think we're. gonna die right we've heard about it. it's a story i've seen a couple of other.

people do it yeah yeah but when you. think about the things you're consuming. your mind with the concerns the. procrastination this is not someone who. thinks they're going to die right you. know that there's a timer so this yeah. we think we've got time to procrastinate. yeah but now it's very true it's it's. and it's and it's. worth reminding ourselves once in a. while just turning it over yeah and oh. [ __ ] i'm going to go and leap. i'm going to go and do something i've. got to go and you know take a risk or. else i risk. nothing being my day-to-day. yeah that's um that's sort of dangerous.

and. and uh. i yeah like i i was just. feeling quite sort of safe. keeping my private life private and my. but there was so much i had to say about. it. i keep my private life private and my am. i you know trying to sort of say. you know what my public life is. people who are interested. and that's that. when.

i suppose i'll use this word the most. wonderful way to go about it. was to. share. in the way that i have today with you. but also. in by celebrating. one of the greatest things in my life. that will always sort of change and. evolve and has done for the time that. lucy and i have been together. um. so it it doesn't sort of set something. in stone. that i can't then you know explore sort. of sharing or you know.

um. using is the wrong word. celebrating again. it's it's been it's been. sort of enlightening and. help me feel lighter. to. to share it. to celebrate. to celebrate like full stop. because it's so easy to get it's dragged. down by.

sort of darker thoughts. that are always going to kind of exist. don't like forget the. the light on the horizon the silver. lining. that's there as well leonard cohen i'm. not gonna get it right but he said. something really great about like. everything has cracks in it that's how. the light gets in. you know he smashed that when he said. that. i am so excited to announce our new. sponsor for this podcast and that is.

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oh this is an interesting one yeah. so our previous guest leaves a question. for our next guest right. go on okay so the question they um. they left for you and i really want you. to think about this because this is a. really interesting one. is. would you do it all again. um. oh. why are you battling with that because. it's like there's consequences with her. how i ask it i want to say yes.

i want to say i'd do it all again. because it was [ __ ] brilliant. i wouldn't do it all again so much of it. was brilliant but i there's a caveat to. my answer i would do it all again if you. let me. like i didn't. if i wasn't going to waste the time i. have going forward like can i just go. back in time do it all again and come. back to this moment and then carry on. from here as i was. do you see what i mean i got you i don't. want. to. fill the next 10 years.

with doing the last 10 again. okay okay so but that's. doctor yeah. yeah well it would be you'd have to go. through and experience it again so the. next period of your life would be the. same thing again i'm guessing from the. question okay let's see this is what we. don't know so because my answer the. reason i say no is because i wouldn't. enjoy doing it all again because you've. done it. like i personally wouldn't get the same. oh my god oh wow oh you know yeah see i. was thinking i was i was i didn't know.

that it was i've been through it before. the old men in black men in black yeah. yeah so otherwise i'm answering the same. as you okay interesting i i. there's yeah there's a there's a sort of. fantastical fantasy world within which i. would do it again where i was. where i was just doing it. but um. before i said that i thought well no i. really i'm i'm really excited about what. happens next what happens next. i don't know and that's what keeps it. exciting that's also what makes me sort. of.

you know. fight with all these voices. but it's also what makes it exciting. well james um you are a person who is. particularly. enjoyable to talk to oh thanks man and i. think likewise very much likewise thank. you evidence of that comes you know when. you're looking at those music videos and. they're giving you a little bit more. depth and you're the person to try and. search out the depth from a very very. young age or clearly someone that wants. to go a little bit deeper. and that makes you a man of my own heart. because i.

that's this is what i do in my spare. time probably to the detriment of you. know casual social situations. um but your new music is testament of. everything you've said today it's it's. it's evidence that you have unlocked a. new. sort of i almost thought it was like a. wall falling and like something. wonderful flowing out of it that hadn't. been there before thanks man i think. people who listen to lee are gonna are. gonna feel this conversation. um but they're also gonna feel this this. new side of you that's. um created art that feels much more.

relatable because it's much more. well-rounded if that makes sense. so look thank you all right it really. you know. i'm. those are incredibly kind words and i. and i. i appreciate them. and um i'm a bit blown away so that you. that you feel that towards the music so. i'll hold on to that for sure. thank you thank you. i had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend. came upstairs yesterday when i was. having a shower and she said to me that. she tried the heel protein shake which.

lives on my fridge over there and she. said it's amazing low calories you get. your 20 odd grams of protein you get. your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's. nutritionally complete in the protein. space there's lots of things but it's. hard to find something that is nice. especially when consumed just with water. and that is nutritionally complete the. salted caramel one if you put some ice. cubes in it and you put it in a blender. and you try it is as good as pretty much. any milkshake on the market just mixed. with water it's been a game changer for. me because i'm trying to drop my calorie.

intake and i'm trying to be a little bit. more healthy with my diet so. this is where heel fits in my life thank. you for making a product that i actually. like. [Music]. [Music].