Jada Pinkett Smith: “I Just wanted to stay alive until 4pm!”

I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it. was just a really dark time I went out. and I knew I had to make it look like an. accident cuz I did not want my kids to. think that I had. committed please welcome Jada pinket. Smith Jada I knew you as a Hollywood. actress I never knew you were the. daughter of two drug addicted parents. and a teenage drug dealer yourself on.

the streets of Baltimore I really. thought I was going to be the next big. time female drug dealer I was absolutely. Fearless but getting 2 n mm pointed at. you they pointed two guns at you that's. a big wakeup call but what happened. somebody set me up and then I had to. always have this tough exterior now as. I'm dismantling my defenses I'm in a. really raw place the holy slap what. happened I knew I was going to get. blamed but like it was insane you say.

protection is your love language did you. see that as a Act of love the. entanglement conversation we broke up. and then what did you do J my mother my. kids they were like how could you do. this do you regret putting that out. honestly I've got this wonderful picture. that I found oh I know that picture do. you know why this is. relevant yeah I lost him back to. back that's the way it is.

I just want to start this episode with a. message of thanks a thank you to. everybody that Tunes in to listen to. this podcast by doing so you've enabled. me to live out my dream but also for. many members of our team to live out. their dreams too it's one of the. greatest privileges I could never have. dreamed of or imagined in my life to get. to do this to get to learn from these. people to get to have these. conversations to get to interrogate them. from a very selfish perspective trying. to solve problems I have in my life so I. feel like I owe you a huge thank you for. being here and for listening to these.

episodes and for making this platform. what it is can I ask you a favor I can't. tell you how much um you can change the. course of this podcast the the course of. the guests were able to invite to the. show and to the course of everything. that we do here just by doing one simple. thing and that simple thing is hitting. that subscribe button helps this channel. more than I could ever explain the. guests on this platform are incredible. because so many of you have hit that. button and I know when we think about. what we want to do together over the. next year on this show a lot of it is. going to be fueled by the amount of you.

that are subscribed and that tune into. this show every week so thank you let's. keep doing this and I can't wait to see. what this year brings for this show for. us as a community and for this. [Music]. platform Jada yes I always believe that. in order to understand someone you have. to understand their context and having. read through the entirety of your book. there was this line that stood out to me. which I think.

might. be might summarize the most important. part of your earliest context which is. when I go in search of the origins of My. Broken Heart it is the sense of not. being the priority to the two people who. gave me life that creates a fracture in. my feeling of worth yeah why did you. write that. line because it's true you know it's. like our parents are like our first. mirrors and so my parents were really.

young when they had me I mean my mom was. 17 right 17 18 she was 17 when she was. pregnant I think she was 18 by the time. she had me so youth on top. of. addiction and I just realized you know. as I was going through my life in. different therapeutic settings I was. like oh wow like the first mirror I. had was kind of non-existent in a way. because.

drugs were my parents'. priority you know during my upbringing. and. so I didn't really get the reflection. of feeling like a priority to the people. who brought me into the world now thank. goodness my grandmother came into the. picture you know and she really she was. a a beautiful powerful mirror for me. that you know even to my you know it's. still a mirror for me to this day.

um where I could see myself I could see. the beauty of myself I could see my. gifts and my talents was through her and. what she was reflecting back to me but. um I think it's important. that I think it's important if it's. possible for children to. feel that sense of. um that sense sense of importance that.

sense of priority from their. parents I had an air of sort of. loneliness as I read through the pages. this kind of lonely young girl who was. searching to be recognized and loved and. to someone to sort of hold her hand and. guide her through those early years. and other than in your grandmother's. garden with your. grandmother it it found like that place. of home was never was never really. there yeah yeah I definitely had it with.

my grandmother now once she. passed that's when I took to the streets. to like figure. out. finding my home finding my tribe finding. my power finding my identity finding my. purpose finding my. worth. yeah your dad mhm Rob. yeah he um he took for a walk one day.

and explained to you why he couldn't be. your. father he. did I was seven and. um he just said he said look I'm a I'm. an addict and a criminal and I can't be. your father and I was like now mind you. he hadn't really been in my life that. much anyway I didn't really know he. wasn't present in my in my life enough. for me to even know what it was like to. have a father but what I did appreciate.

in that moment was like wow just thank. you thank you for like being honest now. I didn't realize at that time because I. was so young how that would. affect my relationships with men ongoing. you know as an adult. woman um but yeah in that moment I was. just like thank you somebody is like. being honest with me I'm not crazy. something is absolutely not right here. and he's letting me know what that is is. and he's saying.

hey I'm going to keep my distance you. know 10 years old 12 13 years old what. does Jada think she's going to be when. she grows. up at 10 11 12 13 I I definitely was. like I wanted to be an artist definitely. wanted to be an actress you wanted to be. an actress yeah I did I did I wanted to. be an actress I started very young I was. doing theater um I think my first.

professional gig was like seven years. old as one of Madame Bon Bon's children. in the. Nutcracker um and then I was in you know. different theatrical programs in the. summertime and what have you and then. the uh when I got the opportunity to. join Twigs which prepared you for. Baltimore School for the Arts I joined. that after school program so Arts has. always been been a big part of my life.

do you know why cuz when as I read. through those early years of your life. it seemed that acting was doing. something the the performance the being. on stage. the the validation I think it was giving. you was doing something for you that it. might not have done for someone else who. hadn't walked the steps You' walked up. until that point the validation but also. an. outlet it was a real outlet for me where. I was able to EXP Express certain. feelings that I didn't feel like I had.

the permission to express at. home um and um it was a. huge it was a huge outlet for me in that. way I mean to the point. that my theater teachers would often. tell me um you know they try to steer me. into like more why don't you try more. comedic roles you know I was always. going for the very dramatic very high. highly emotional you know uh.

roles um and my I just remember my. theater teacher always trying to guide. me into. diversifying the monologues that I would. choose uh for for my pieces to work on. in. class I read um read some books I think. one of them was called the body holds. the score which talks about mhm the role. that acting can play as sort of a. therapy yeah and it's.

so it seems to not be a coincidence that. the amount of actors I've sat here and. spoke with who have pretty um. Unthinkable Early Childhood experiences. domestic violence in the home Etc that. then find acting as an outlet for a form. of escapism almost escaping the identity. embodying a different role absolutely. totally agree totally. agree as I read it in your story I was. like not another. one yes another one.

it's. classic yeah and I I reflect on some of. the words you wrote in the early part of. the book where you're talking about your. mother and your father there being. domestic violence in the home at an. early age your mother running out of the. house dropping you on the floor because. Rob had punched her I believe your. father had punched her yeah the these. are stories I guess you've heard after. the fact from your mother. yeah but I guess you believe those.

moments leave a mark. absolutely I mean my mother talks about. it to this day and we'll choke up she'll. you know cry it's like it's it's you. don't get over things in the sense of. like it's forgotten you know you learn. to cope with it you heal in a certain. manner but it still can leave a certain. imprint upon you um and even hearing. those stories are not easy you know even. as an adult because she didn't really. give me the details until I was.

was I mean my kids would dag on their. adults before she shared with me the. level of violence that she dealt with. with my dad did it help you understand. yourself did it help you connect. dots I don't. know if it helped me understand myself. as much as it helped me understand my. mother and then that helped me. understand a lot of how her journey has.

imprinted upon me in a certain manner. you know so I guess it does if you take. you know through through my mother and. her journey helped me understand her. journey which has affected me so yeah I. guess you could say that it helped me. understand myself more I say that. because I sat with um you know Gabel. matate gab gab M I do yeah yes yes he. was the he's the person that opened my. eyes to the fact that even the things. that occurred when when we are babies.

yeah we interpret them to mean um. certain things about ourselves and he. says babies are incredibly selfish so. for example if the parents are arguing. the baby will interpret that is. reflection of them MH and I think about. the early context that I think I read. about in your story but also that. appears in mine and how I interpreted. that to mean that I wasn't enough in. some way yeah um which is a real through. line throughout your story yeah for. sure I and I think. that probably is probably.

more subconscious unconscious than that. which the abuse of drugs. and how that reflected to me that I. wasn't worthy in a certain manner. that why is it that this particular. substance has more power over you know. has more attention more power more. influence than me. to the point that your father will tell.

you I'm. relinquishing my parental rights because. I'd rather be a criminal on a drug. addict than try to get my [ __ ] together. for. you is the way I interpreted. that and at the same time was like just. thank you for being honest instead of. sitting up here pretending like you're. doing something different thank. you you know which a lot of people would.

do Tony was he your he was your mother's. first part partner after Rob no she he. was her first husband first husband okay. yeah after Rob and he seemed to be a. pretty solid he yeah he was he was. indeed it's this guy comes into your. life and plays the role of a father by. all accounts he seems to do a pretty. good job and seems to love on you in a. way that is sufficient for a child. but then he.

too vanishes out of your life makes a. exit makes an acit yeah which I. understand you know as an adult now. looking back and and looking at the. circumstances you know he did the best. that he could he's a man that was trying. to get his life together and my mother. was was deep in her. addiction addiction to heroin at that. time and so. you you can't you can't.

negotiate with that it's either you want. to get help you know um or you have to. sometimes you have to make clean breaks. I know that now as an adult and you. don't always know how to play the. middle you know and so I get it what. does that do to you as a young a young. woman who's trying to figure out what. where safety is it's devastating ating. it's devastating I mean I completely.

abandoned feeling like I could depend on. anyone which is why I just took to the. streets I was like you know what I'm. going to figure. out how to make money gain power and. create a situation where I can protect. myself and my mother and make sure just. in case she doesn't make it I'mma be. okay you take to the street. when you say take to the streets what.

you mean by that when I would see you. know the high rollers the hustlers I was. like oh that's what I want you know I. want. to have the Mercedes I want to have big. wads of cash in my pocket I want to have. friends around me that will protect. me and I want to be able to have. security and stability created by my own. hands I don't want to depend on anybody.

not only do I not want to depend on. anybody I can't depend on anyone and so. the. streets that's where I saw. security because we didn't have doctors. and lawyers you know. to look upon you know like that's the. aspiration right because in our. neighborhoods that's what we had we had. hustlers. right and they had the good life so you.

could be a hustler or you could be a. Hustler's girlfriend I wasn't trying to. be the girl one trying to be a. girlfriend and. so I'd look. to to that lifestyle. to offer me the security that I didn't. have at. home as an opportunity for me to create. that security that I didn't have at home.

security. protection safety these are all words. that appear over and over and over again. in your. book I know right yeah childhood to. adulthood those are the the most. recurring words yep and you you found. that security in part through a. lifestyle of drug dealing yourself MH um. which again I said to you before we. started recording Jada that I knew you. as a Hollywood actress you know that's.

what I that's what I know of you of I'm. not someone that's hugely involved in. Media or TV or movie so that's what I. thought I never in my life IM thought of. you as the daughter of two um drug. addicted parents who had chosen their. addiction over you and I never knew that. you started dealing drugs when you were. very very young were you were you not. scared dealing drugs in Baltimore. and you you don't have time to be scared.

that environment was a war zone right. and so it's like stuff was popping off. all the time so you just get used to a. certain level of violence you get used. to a certain level of. um just vigilance because that's what. you're. given so you just learn to adapt to that. kind of environment so the levels what. what somebody might consider.

dangerous for me was just. normal it wasn't like ooh I'm going into. something crazy here you know it's like. [ __ ] everything's crazy so what right so. I look at it now and I go what in the. world you know but I have I'm living a. different reality in that time when I. was living that. reality that's what life was and. everybody that's what we were all living. was there moments.

that were wakeup calls hell yeah and you. were dealing drug listen getting two n. millimeters pointed at you at one time. one to your head that's a that that you. would think that's a big wakeup call Jay. we don't all know what 9 millimeter is. oh you know I guns you know it's two big. guns you know when did that. happen. um I had to.

be. 17 17 17 years old because that was my. senior year of high. school and what what was the reason that. someone pointed two guns at your. head I was I had uh posted up in this in. the projects in this apartment on the. bottom floor where I would sell drugs. out of the window or through the door of. that particular.

apartment and somebody set me up to make. a long story short somebody set me up. and um as I was making the exchange. through the door that had the chain on. it two guys from the side of the door. which I couldn't see because I'm looking. through the peephole two guys from the. side of the door come around and kick. the door. in and pull out guns Point them to me. and take all my money my jewelry and.

stash and I was really lucky to make it. out of that alive for sure because the. person who led that robbery ended up. killing two drug dealers um two weeks or. a month after put them in a uh put him. in a trunk shot the trunk up and uh. murdered. two guys and um he ended up doing life.

for that. but uh I could tell as he was leaving. you know you it's so interesting when. you're in moments like that I can still. see his eyes as he's leaving me and how. he's making a choice in the moment of. what he's going to do with. me and by the grace of. God he left me there. why well when and of course I you know.

my crazy self because of. who because of the protection that I was. under at the time I called that person I. was like I just got robbed he knew. exactly he knew exactly he's like I know. who this is don't worry about anything. um I was like I want my [ __ ]. back and. so we actually um. that person whose Wing I was under he.

made for a meeting for us to meet in. that area a couple of days later he was. like you're not going to get your money. back you're not going to get the drugs. back but maybe there might be some. pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll. you know he hasn't sold yet and that's. he was exactly right he had you know a. couple chains or. whatever and I told I asked him I said. you. know why' you just leave me there like. and he said you were too pretty and that. was the first time and I talk about this. in the book that was the first time that.

I was like well maybe I am pretty. because I was like maybe I am pretty. because you know he cuz this this was a. stone cold killer and I talk about even. when I met him how he looked like he he. had never. felt any kind of love in his. life and I'm just I don't know what kind. of crazy nut I was at that time I was. just so.

all I can say is just out of my mind. like I was just in such an alter reality. I I I really thought I was going to be. the next Queen pen first of. all again a lot of people don't know. what queen pen is Jan yeah well you know. I thought I was going to be the next you. know like big time female drug dealer. you know and I really had I I was I I. was crazy I absolutely was just a nut. because I had no fear whatsoever I was. absolutely Fearless. to be rolling with these wolves like.

this and like it was nothing like it was. absolutely nothing I think about that. today I think of my daughter I'm like. what the. like I don't know all I can and that's. when I know and I think back on. everything that I've been through I was. like there is a God for sure there was a. God cuz that. dude for me to even want to see his face. again was like I want my [ __ ].

back and he had it he had it for me he. was like there you go you know and so um. but it prepared me for Hollywood it. prepared me it prepared me big time how. it prepared me in a way because I was. running with Killers that's it's as. simple as that right so the Hollywood. Flex you know dudes who. were presenting themselves as like these.

powerful you know if you don't do what I. say like bro. honestly it it it just didn't resonate. that way for me I just looked at it I. looked at all of that as just kind of. like puppy. play it didn't resonate with you but. from the words you describe in your book. about how you received in Hollywood it. appears that H you didn't resonate with.

Hollywood either for a while I did not. yeah for a minute this Rough Around the. Edges Rough Around the Edges yeah. because I mean it it was part of what. was refreshing for a lot of people but. it was also the thing that was. standoffish too right what is that um I. think just that that edge that I came. with that. no you know having no [ __ ] to give. basically was just like I'm here to do.

me. what you know and I got something to. offer and if you can't see it well then. that's on you you're lost you know just. that kind of attitude and just kind of. like you know I wasn't your Prim. proper uh. demure young lady you know it's just. kind of like as just rough. rugged and rambunctious since. interesting isn't it in life how a. certain type of demeanor or attitude or.

mindset can help us to survive and. thrive in one context but sometimes we. need to figure out how to turn that [ __ ]. off yes and that's what I had to learn. to do cuz you weren't in Survival. anymore I wasn't in Survival anymore you. know. and I talk about this in the book you. know how Warren batty bless him he was. probably one of the first people that. was just like. hey you're in Hollywood now okay I get.

it but why don't you allow people to see. some other aspects that charm you have. that smile you have like let's take that. let's take that chip off your shoulder a. little bit you know and he was the first. person really to talk to me in a way. that wasn't like making me. wrong right he didn't make me. wrong for being who I was he was just. like there's so much more to you let. people see that. you know and that was the first time I.

actually listened because he didn't make. me wrong and I bet you Warren has no. idea that how how much that conversation. and the time that he spent with me. really meant to me was really awesome. because he was he was so respectful and. he really. honored where I. sat and where you you didn't get that. often in Hollywood it was just like no. you got to change this you got to do.

this different you you'll never get jobs. like that I was just like well then I. won't work. cuz you know I was very rebellious. sometimes in that. way um but yeah he really that really. stuck with me and from that day on I. just started on the Journey of trying to. figure out how to not lose. myself but also. feel find a way to.

feel safe to take that approach because. like I said I was. around wolves all the time so I had to. always be on guard I had to always have. this tough exterior I always had to. carry the attitude like I'm not the one. you don't want to come over here it's. interesting cuz when. you putting up such a barrier to defend.

yourself. um Can often make us quite hard. to form connections yes absolutely the. reason I paus there is because I'm. thinking about what you said in the book. after Tony left you who was your. mother's new husband he left abrupt. abruptly after playing the role of of a. father and you said the line about um. the rejection was was brutal something. broke inside me my grief was Oceanic I.

put on a li I put it on a library shelf. labeled unlovable and I tried to leave. it there that's another word that comes. up over and over again this word UNL. unlovable and it's funny because when. people are when they feel unlovable. themselves they do often put up these. walls which make them it's almost like. self-fulfilling it's right you know. exactly and that's the essence of what I. felt in J when she arrives in Hollywood. is this person who's got this sort of. little bit of a tough exterior up but. not because not because she's not you. know yeah not because you know it was.

really just it was it was so many things. I was trying to protect it was defense. not offense what I'm saying exctly yeah. it was and and I still to this day you. know people like you know I still to. this day have to like manage that. because it's. just it's just in me it's just part of. me it's something because it was such. a um. it was you know it was something that.

was built at the foundation you know. it's in my DNA default it's yeah it's my. default so it's like and I I do it well. I can just you won't know anything. that's going on but like you said it's. like well then you don't give yourself. an opportunity to make the connections. that you really want to have and you're. going to be misunderstood stood yeah all. the time which that is like that has. been my life too just.

misunderstood another thing I learned. from reading the book which is going to. shock you that I didn't know but this. shows how little I am tuned into media. and Hollywood all that is your. relationship with Tupac oh yeah he comes. over introduces himself yeah first day. of school Baltimore School for the Arts. and um as soon as I walk in he's holding. Court he's holding Court. he's a like he's a charismatic from day.

one he's holding Court I'm like who's. who's that peanut head dude over there. you know and I'm coming in I'm rocking. you know I'm Jada I'm walking in I got. the rat tail I got the fly clothes you. know and he turns and we our eyes just. meet and I'm like oh and then you know. I'm I'm going to hold my court you know. I'm. saying and so then he comes over you. know my I'm like oh okay cool yeah.

whatever and so he comes over and he's. like hey I'm Tupac and I'm like Tupac. the name from the gate was just like. never heard a name like that before that. was such a. powerful different name and I was like. Tupac and he had this big smile and I. was like it's not a lot of people that. have that kind of like Charisma and. courage to just walk up on me on just. like I'm Tupac I'm you know what I mean.

you need to know me you know and from. the right from there Inseparable we. became the best of friends from that. moment on we just connected it was as if. we already knew each other it's. crazy people will find it hard to. believe that at that age in that. environment it wasn't a romantic thing I. know people have had a really hard time. you know understanding that Pac and I. had a hard time understanding. why it just didn't we didn't have it and. I talk about it in the book you know.

that being on the back of porch of my. house and we're like having this. discussion I'm like okay Pac just kiss. me and he kisses me and it's the most. disgusting kiss between us both I mean. he pulled back just like and I pulled. back and I was like see dummy you know. and from there it was just like and then. there was one more time he kissed me and. it was just like like and I talk about. that in in jail when I go to see him in.

danam Mora that's a whole another thing. and once again it's just. like. dude doesn't work but. throughout our. relationship we definitely had this. beautiful. closeness that was really. intimate but never physically intimate a. lot of emotional.

intimacy a lot of um. intellectual. intimacy um we just knew how to reach. each other in ways that was very. difficult we knew how to get around each. other's walls and we didn't get offended. when we would fall into our defaults of. Defense which could be be pretty Fierce. between the two of us he was.

quite uh a Powerhouse and so was I we. could be very challenging when we got. riled up so arguments we were very. passionate but because we were one and. the same in that way we kind of. understood that language like a this. joke is is you know what I mean so we. didn't get offended a lot until one. particular time which comes later in the. book yeah when you come from the same. place so you know origin stories you. don't have that misunderstood thing you.

talk about because you understand I just. understood him I just understood him and. he understood me he really got me and he. really knew how to pull my coattails in. ways that a lot of people didn't and. same for me with him I just. knew how to reach him in ways that and. and that had everything and I think. because we didn't. have that kind of I think sometimes. physical intimacy can really get in the. way MH you know um and I think that God.

just made it that way in which Gody was. like no no no I need you to to be I I I. got a plan so that's not part of plan. did you know did you in your heart of. hearts know that Tupac was going to go. on to do what he. did I knew he was going to go to do. something m. I did not know he would.

become the Tupac we know him to be but I. knew he was going to do something great. in hindsight when you look back at who. he was the character traits the. ingredients that were within him why did. he go on to do what he did what was it. about. him he wore his heart on his sleeve and. he could join. you and so what I mean by joining you is. that he's not talking at you he's. talking with you he had a way of being. able.

to speak about subject matters. that he's going to sit with you in your. broken heart and speak to you from there. because he knows that broken. heart he's lived that broken heart so. and whether it's your broken heart. whether it's your. rage but he just knew how to penetrate.

those emotional spaces in people and. that's what I mean by joining you he. knew how to join you. emotionally in so many different. vertical of. emotion you know he was supremely. intelligent as well he was so authentic. also and so raw that I think that was. really refreshing as well he gave you. him. and he was Unapologetic so he's going to.

give you his intelligence he's going to. give you his fear he's going to give you. his pain he's going to give you his. anger you know he's going to give you. his sympathy he's going to give you his. understanding right. but it was coming from. that that heart space that that that. real space within it wasn't a gimmick it. wasn't like oh I'm going to talk about. this because this is what's hot. no you know right wrong or indifferent.

he gave you his truth and some truth. people could rock with with them and. some truth you couldn't you know what I. mean and um but regardless it was what. was real for him at that time he was. always. authentic but it's not easy it comes. with a cost right it comes with a. cost because it's almost the opposite of. conformity in a way authenticity yeah. exactly and he was a rebel in that way. and I think people.

really I at at points in his. career you know he could speak he would. speak for the community and then at. points of his career he would speak from. that that really intimate place of. woundedness Dear Mama yeah you know that. so many of. us related to nobody was speaking to us. in that way. that could that could go from Ambitions.

of a. rider to shed so many. tears to a soldier Story come. on come. on you know to I mean he had so he could. speak to us from so many different. angles that is just the evidence of. authenticity isn't it because people are. multifaceted in their nature no one is. just ambition of AI yeah we were all all. the shades all the shades right but rap. rap music especially back then was very.

narrowing it was like this is how to be. a rapper so someone willing to be. authentic it's funny I've seen this over. and over again they they are the most. resonant people in the world because. they represent us in a way that a lot of. others aren't brave enough to represent. us in that's also what vulnerability. does yes that's what you do as well in. this book well thank you because because. you're willing to lay it all out we can. relate to many people will be able to. relate to many parts of you and. you know without books like this we get. narrow views and those narrow views.

those are crafted by other people and. they're the least relatable narratives. right yeah and we're also. multi-dimensional you moved to LA you're. working three jobs you start trying to. climb into the ladder of Hollywood um at. this point you you meet a certain Fresh. Prince the Savior Prince the Savior. Prince oh yeah and I was quite shocked. by I think of I think of Will Smith I.

think charismatic he's good-looking guy. yeah you didn't seem to think that. way no not at first yeah what did you. think at first I mean he was the fresh. prince I was like okay he's cool you. know but I was like not not not the guy. for. me you know why was he too soft I. wouldn't say he I wouldn't say soft I. would just say that he didn't seem.

deep and I talk about this in the book. how at that time a troubled dude seemed. deep to me versus just. troubled it's like stay away from the. troubled right and so he wasn't troubled. it didn't seem to be right and so I was. like that's not deep like he just seems. like you know just didn't draw me in.

that. way you didn't feel the same way anymore. though do the the Deep Parts he's. actually yeah exactly yeah yeah don't. judge a book by its cover that that's. that's what Will Smith told taught me it. was like not to judge a book by his. cover and I learned that you know years. later when we had an opportunity to have. you know we had a mutual friend and so. we were able ble to share some time at. Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to.

see a totally different side of him. Dwayne Dwayne Martin yeah yeah you went. to that jacket Potato Place yeah the. baked potato mhm what was it about what. did you see in will that night I found. it really interesting because one of the. things that you described seeing in him. was someone who quite was quite adamant. in taking over the world yeah he so. ambitious you know and in such a. beautiful way he had Big Dreams Big. Dreams and.

um and he was so. joyful he was really joyful but. grounded and that was the part that I. missed he was grounded it was. like he' been through some things and he. was. really. intelligent so he's what you call you. know he go from the hood to the White. House and everywhere in.

between right and I always find people. like that. fascinating that have a wide. range within. them places that they can go you know. you drop Will anywhere and he's going to. figure it out and fit in he had asked. you to be his onc screen girlfriend. hadn't he he okay yeah so I AUD IED for. fresh prins I think it was the second. year to pay one of his girlfriends and.

they were like you're too short I was. like all right cool. right and so that was the first time. that I actually met will I came out of. the the. casting and he was you know coming into. the casting office or about to leave or. something and he was like Hey I was like. yeah what's up you know I was like no. need to talk to me they always said I'm. I'm short yeah know so I'm on my way and.

then and I think I I think I was. probably about 20 um and he wanted he he. wanted me to play his you know his. girlfriend as a series regular so he. flew in to North Carolina to meet me and. I was like n I'm going to do movies now. and he was like all right cool that's a. that's a bold that's a big. rejection to reject the fresh prince of. ballad when he says you can be his sort. of recurring onscreen girlfriend in a.

hit show and you say TV's not for me I'm. going to focus on movies big cool well I. had just done it I had just come off of. a different. world and I knew like I had the. protection of Debbie Allen on a. different world right and so when I. wanted to make moves Debbie was there to. help me that's not to say that I would. have that same assistance on fresh. prints and at that time they locked you. in mhm you couldn't do anything you know.

what I mean they have you for six years. they got you. locked and I I just didn't want to be. locked like that and so I really wanted. to try my hand. at doing movies and then Dwayne Martin. when I turned will down Dwayne Martin. got on me because he felt the same way. you did it was just like it's Financial. Security how could you let something. like this go and you know who's to say. when your next starring Mo you know role. is going to come in and blah blah blah. blah blah and I was like but I'm so glad.

that I didn't take that role because I. tell you what if I had taken that role. will and I would not have been married. and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow. and been Trey's bonus mom my life would. have been totally. different you sure I'm positive yeah as. in you're sure that you wouldn't have. gotten married I'm. positive because you seen yeah no you. would have seen the red flags listen. no yeah no earthquakes are hard to.

predict sometimes you feel tram is ahead. of time often they come on. suddenly and in your early 20s you had. your first maybe not even your first but. what you describe in the book is your. first breakdown personal earthquake when. you're driving down the street one. day mental health and Psychiatry have. come a long way since then um I I I. would guess that at the time many people. wouldn't have been able to tell you what.

that. was I had no idea what was going on me. just thinking about that moment just. it's like. um I was so overwhelmed you know and I. was like I I didn't know what was going. on with me and it came over me in an. instant I was fine one. moment I'm turning my car around to meet. a friend on the corner that you know I. saw to say and to say hello to her and.

all of a sudden my body shaking all. these emotions come over me and I I'm. like I'm starting to it's like waterfall. of like tears and I I'm like and I have. no idea like my brain is not catching up. to what is happening with my body all I. know is that this waterfall this volcano. of emotions It Was Fear anger.

Despair and I was like I I got and she. was looking at me like are you okay and. I was like I don't know I you know and I. get in the car and I'm trying to drive. and I'm like you can't drive pull. over and then I pull. over and then I just. remember feeling terrified to just let. it go and I let it go and then I'm like. I want to. die I want to.

die and I. remember making it. home and all I could do was call my. mother and say you got to come here. I'mma kill. myself you know and I think about that. and I'm just like wow and my mother was. like she was maybe a year into her. sobriety. right and what a terrifying call to get. like if I get that call from Willow or.

Jaden or Trey I'm just you know it's. like and. um so she's figuring out because she. just started a job at this. hospital I'm so terrified to be by. myself I call my H girl MC light and I. tell her like you got to come out here. I'm afraid to be alone by myself I'm. going to do something to. myself and she flies out and so she.

holds me down until my mother. comes it's a crazy. moment have you figured out what what. your body was telling. you I think my body was telling me that. I think my. mind. was telling me. hey we have some things we got to pay.

attention to up here enough with let's. keep it moving I'm going to make it so. you're not going to just be able to keep. it moving anymore you have some things. that you got to pay attention to some. things that need to be addressed and at. the. time like you were just talking about. nobody was talking about Mental Health. at all and.

specifically mental health was. considered like a white people thing. black people don't have mental health. issues right and so suicide for sure was. a white people thing so I was real. confused I I felt. really I felt like something is is has. gone really really really wrong here. because nobody else like me feels like.

this nobody knows what's going on. and maybe I'm losing my mind I'm. actually going. crazy no so it was a scary. time when I read about that it sounded. to me like you had been you've been. playing defense for just a little bit. too long yeah for sure for sure and. that's I guess one of the costs of the. the toughness right they're like as you.

say we'll just keep it moving we just. keep it moving nobody a me are they no. it's going to catch you you can deal. with it or it will deal with you those. are your Cho those are your two. choices but you you did keep it moving. even in that moment it seemed it seemed. like you you carried on with the work um. I think you were you were recommended to. go and see a psychiatrist right yeah I. went to see a psychiatrist they put me. on um Prozac and I I started therapy I.

started. therapy but it does still appear that. you kept it moving because you you kept. working you didn't seem to want to show. anybody outside of your sort of inner. circle hell no why absolutely. not because that's what we do we keep it. moving right and so I was like I got the. help that I need I got a doctor and I'm. on Prozac. just like right so I'm like okay I'm.

doing what I'm supposed to be doing. and I can't let anybody. know and we're GNA keep this moving. because that's what we. do plaster over cracks yeah we just at. that time I'm going to take a break. because you know I'm having I'm. depressed what at that time that that. seem absolutely ridiculous quick one I. discovered a product which has changed. my life called Eight sleep this product.

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about that okay just for you guys did. you go back to Baltimore I did I went. back to Baltimore um and because I. was going to continue working but not. live in LA. anymore and so I bought a. farmhouse I bought a little farmhouse. on I want to say it was about 6 Acres. maybe six or nine acres if I remember. correctly and it was.

um I was going to build a life there for. myself in a little quiet. corner and you know I was like all right. I'll if I need to audition I'll either. go to New York or I can just fly back. and forth from. La I will was trying to hit you up at. this this point in your life yeah he hit. me up he had just Sheree had just sent. him divorce papers and um he decides to. call me and of course me not knowing.

anything about marriage thinking that. marriage you know break up of a marriage. is like breaking up with a. boyfriend he's like you know um where. are you and I'm like I'm in Baltimore. you know renovating my. house and he's like are you seeing. anybody and I'm like no he's like good. you seeing me now and I was like. what once again that kind of bold you. know approach I was just like oh clutch. my pearls a little bit so he was like. you know call me when you get back to LA.

so when I got back to LA I called him. and we went out on our first. date in and around that time pack had. been sentenced to Rikers right he'd been. sent sent to jail for he been sent to at. that point in time he was at Rikers but. then he was on his way to damura which. is a horrific place where they send. terrorists yeah usually yeah I think the. 9/11 some of the people that were. involved with 911 or the well Trade. Center bombings were sent to damura um. while he's in.

jail while he's in jail what do you have. here. oh yeah now as I slip from grace and the. world has turned against me a few claim. to have love for me but once again you. show your love after deep reflection and. spiritual awakening I have come to. realize the friend love and soulmate was. there all the time I have not seen or. felt from anywhere anyone the intensity.

and loyalty that you have shown me that. is why I want to commit myself to you I. want to marry you he sends you that. letter yeah he it's much longer letter. than that but that's the words that I. put in the book a marriage proposal. that's why he was in Rikers when I went. to go see him in Rikers and Rikers is. actually. that's a. really danur might be where they put.

terrorists Rikers is. like I remember going to see him there. and. um he was in such bad shape you know and. um I Rikers I.

like yeah Rikers. was bad danur yeah terrorists are there. but far more Humane conditions than I. would say. Rikers it feels it feels like the. emotion is still right on the surface. with you when you think back to these. these moments in your life oh. yeah it feels like I just came back from.

seeing Pac at Rikers and I had to leave. him there was just like. yesterday but I'm also in a very raw. place in my life right now as I'm. thawing out as I'm dismantling my. defenses you know I call it the thaw out. so I'm I'm in a really raw place. obiously Pac was he gets out of jail and. sugaright I mean talking about timing I.

think it was like a week ago or two. weeks ago that someone's been convicted. for Tupac's. murder a lot of emotions yeah how did. you feel when you heard about the um. conviction or that someone had that. arrested an arrest had been. made. um I was like I was. glad that an arrest had been made this. this was someone. who we had known had been in the car he.

he had had. done some Street interviews about it you. know um and I was just hoping I was like. well I hope they're bringing him in. because we're going to get some. other questions. answered. so you know my hope is that we'll. get more questions answered. in the book you question but then you. confirm that pack Tupac knew how you.

felt about him when he passed away. because you and him hadn't been speaking. no and I think there's a really. important lesson in in this for all of. us. yeah yeah we had a we had a. huge. fight huge it was one of the biggest. fights we had ever. had and and. [Music]. um and it was about how he had been.

living you. know and uh I. really at that time you know really had. to let him know my position that I just. felt. like you know where he was sitting with. everything was just.

just it wasn't going to end up. well. right. and we. had a magnin I mean it. was just beyond the two of us just at. each. other um. and I was just like [ __ ]. that I'm not calling him this time he's.

going to have to call me he was way out. of. line so I really dug my heels heels in. the ground in regards to like. nah you I let my pride I let my ego come. in I really took for granted that he. would be living forever like he had. already survived so much like it never. like I never I I looked at Pac as being. Invincible at this. point you know cuz he survived so much. even so much that people don't know.

about you know. um but just like I say in the book I'm. like. man don't do. it don't do it don't don't don't hold on. to like that prideful part of yourself. you know with someone you really care. about like no you know he going to have. to call me this time you know I was like. nope was that the last time you spoke to.

him that was the last time I spoke to. him that was the last time I spoke to. him I was the last time I spoke to him. and you know what's. crazy it meant absolutely. nothing it meant absolutely nothing and. so that's the test I always have I'm. like okay you're in this beef with. somebody will this beef matter on your. deathbed and then right away I'm like.

nope let me give him a call you know. what I'm. saying that's my that's my. test almost a year later he gets shot in. Las Vegas you get a phone call while. you're filming on set that he's from I. believe from his mother um Shakur and. saying that he's in hospital in a coma. and a few days after that you find out. that he's passed away yeah I was on my.

way you know fa was like no rush he's. going to be. fine um he had his fiance there with him. and his. family. um she was like so you. know come after your trip in New York so. I was on my way to. him and. my girlfriend Fawn came to the door and. she I I knew as soon as I saw her face.

that he was. gone oh I know that. picture yep that was Thanksgiving he. came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with. me and we were at one of my friends. house you look like brother and sister. yeah we look like brother and sister. because that's what we were yeah he came. to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving. with. me we talked about mental health earlier.

do you do you know how to grieve someone. the loss of someone like like that in. your life no I'm still I'm still um. working out my relationship with. grief. actually yeah I haven't I haven't really. I yeah I'm. still working that out. because this chapter of your life was. loss mhm unor loss chapter 12 of your.

book I've got this other picture that I. found that I thought was um. relevant oh now you do you know why this. is relevant I do Maxine and and Tupac. are both in that picture same. picture.

do you have a. tissue. thanks. thank you give nice. hugs. um yeah that's.

a. yeah. sorry. yeah I. am I lost Maxine and Pac back to.

back so like to you know this picture to. be flanked by. them yeah I lost them back to. back maxing was a good friend of yours. um pack was your brother yeah and she. was like my sister you know she um. I met Maxine on Jason's. Lyric and.

uh we became like super tight and she. lived in Canada and. so she wanted to come to Hollywood. and make a career for herself so I told. her that she could come live with me so. she came to to live with me. um she we we feel feel as though she. um had a.

misdiagnosis that she had some kind of. thyroid. disorder that really. um disrupted. her psyche mhm and um she ended. up jumping off her mother's balcony. committed she committed. suicide um. so that was really.

tough it seems it seems unimaginable. that that chapter and season of your. life could be filled with so much loss. and so much complicated. loss you know because in all these. situations as you write about in the. book there. are reflections where you you say in the. book If I you know you're left with this. feeling if I'd done this I could maybe I. should have done it like this or I wish. I'd treat that situation differently in. hindsight as we know is a wonderful. thing isn't it right you know and I've.

sat here with a lot of people that have. lost a lot of people by by Suicide and. they all have the same Reflections yeah. they all have that last phone call with. the person where they had to put up a. boundary and yeah you know I've sat here. even in LA in that chair with I remember. BOS um her her partner at the time. calling and saying listen if you don't. come and do this I'll jump off this. bridge and then he does and yeah. it's like that existential. disappointment of just life.

being what it is it's like grieving that. grieving it's like she in. a she went from this like. happy person like having this. condition that just. right and so I just sometimes I just. go this is when I just have to like.

reconcile with. God it's like wow God like you really be. doing some stuff like you know what I. mean and it's like and sometimes I get. in grief around what life. is and then I have to make peace with it. feels thinking about your story it.

feels confusing that God could seemingly. hand someone so much you know wonderful. career wonderful family all of those. things but at the same time and maybe. maybe there's a relationship maybe. there's a relationship between the two. because had you not had the had you not. come from where you came from maybe you. wouldn't have had all the wonderful. things that you have but also had you. not come from where you came from maybe. you wouldn't have experienced all the. loss that you've experienced MH so maybe. there's a relationship between the two.

because I've not experienced that loss. but I don't come from where you come. from so I didn't lose friends growing up. right I didn't lose friends in in the in. my 20s either right. um having all the different experiences. that I've had as painful as some of them. are it gives me the opportunity to join. people in a certain. manner you know and in really powerful. places you know like I have a beautiful.

friendship with. um Lauren London and she is the. Widow of nipy. hustle and because of the loss that I. went through with. Pac I could reach out to her. and I could go. hey anytime you need.

anything anytime you need to talk I'm. here and Lauren's quite like me defenses. you know what I mean but I just kept. walking closer and closer and I just say. all that to say. that we've been able to meet each other. in a certain place because. of the type of losses we've had. mhm that can really. create beautiful.

connection you feel me I feel you yeah. so there are blessings and. pain you just got to you just got. to know that to be true and wait for. that door to. open you know and that's just one one. tiny example example of. like the blessings that I've found in a. lot of the loss that I've had in my life.

in general you know there's almost an. irony or a paradox in the fact that your. pain caused a disconnection but then the. pain caused connection. deep. because. heartbreak there's this beautiful scene. in heartbreak which is like it breaks. you. open breaks you open and you got two. places that you can.

go you can go into the deep Wells of. Darkness or you can go into the deep. Wells of. light and I've been to. both and I've learned I ain't trying to. be over here no more you know what I. mean so I always use. heartbreak discontent. pain to help me search for bright.

light and beautiful blessings within. them in the opener of the book you. described in the prol the life that the. world would have seen in over the next. sort of 10 years of your life before you. before you turn 40 you describe the you. know your super successful Hollywood. actress you've got this husband who is. you know Will Smith and he's a super. successful Hollywood actor you got these. kids you got the family you got the.

house you got it all yeah externally. you're killing the game so internally. you must be killing the game right. internally you know I was spiritually. bankrupt right I I find it so I found it. so interesting hearing you describe the. relationship that both you and will had. as it relates to conflict resolution. uhuh I find it so interesting cuz I've. come to learn over the last couple of. years that the way we deal with conflict. predicts the long-term health of our. relationships oh God yeah and I think.

there's this professor professor I think. it's called professor John gotman who. studied couples and tried to figure out. why they end up in divorce and he says. the number one reason is because they. build contempt. contempt that's all about conflict. resolution how you're dealing with your. [ __ ] yes absolutely now you remind. me of my partner because she wants. connection she wants to talk she wants. to resolve things she's you know she. wants to deal with the emotions. I would like to not I will buy you.

something to make sure that you're safe. right I'll pay for your stuff right but. I just want to work yeah and I and. that's the way you. describe and so I resonated with Will in. that but I I you sharing how you felt. throughout that story helped me to. understand my partner and all the. conversations she's had with me about. what she actually wants from me and me. misunderstanding. her because we have different Love. Languages yeah and your love language. starts when you're a kid right yeah for.

sure and wills does too. absolutely what was that conflict of. Your Love Languages Wills you know was. very much like yours it's like M I want. to work I want to work hard so that you. can have everything in the world that. you'd ever want you know I'm you're not. going to need for. anything right am I Lov like was like. but I just want you to be here with me I. don't need all of that stuff I want to. look in your eyes and you know feel your.

love and feel your protection here with. me. and you know it was like that connection. I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a. masterpiece out of our connection you. know and he wanted to make a masterpiece. out of you know the the the life. itself right and neither's wrong. wrong neither is wrong and that's what I. had to. learn that that that's where we we've.

come to now and understanding neither. one of those wants are. wrong how do you balance. them because it can't be one or the. other how do we balance it like yin and. yang everything about life is. balance so I just want you to know that. you're your. partner you talking to me yeah just I. just want you to know that because in in. as couples we get into these power.

struggles no my way is right no my way. is right well if you didn't have this. you know you know it gets into all of. that right and it's like. stop it's not about anybody being right. or. wrong how do you get the balance of it. that's it right and so. yeah it took Will and I three decades. CHR I haven't got that kind of time yeah.

three decades okay three decades that's. what we'll get to that will get you it. doesn't have to be that you know it's. like do it. now cuz that's what I've said to my. girlfriend is I've told her that I've. got this opportunity now because things. are going well in my career so I just. want to f for now and then we're going. to have all of our lives together I. actually said that to her one day and. she reminded me of it a week later when. we were arguing yeah I was like we're. going to have all of our lives together.

so like we'll connect later yeah we'll. connect later it's like what kind of. foolishness is that you know what I mean. and I'm going to tell you like. this I bet you when you're on your. deathbed you're not going to think. about whatever it is you're trying to. accomplish and achieve. what do you think you're going to think. about most when you're on your. deathbed how you were loved and how you. loved no 100% okay and even as I said it.

I thought about Tupac and how you never. know how long you've got left with. someone you don't know why would you. ever want to wait and put that off it's. an excuse though isn't it it is an. excuse to justify my own toxic or holism. well you know I wouldn't call it toxic. I'm I'm I'm always careful with this. word toxic that we're thrown around. right cuz we're all so wounded exactly. and it's not.

listen when intimacy makes us have to. look at our. [ __ ] right it's easy to go I piss you. off I got you this diamond ring I got. you this you know beautiful bag I'm. gonna take you on this trip it's like. right but like real emotional intimacy. see we got to we got to deal with our. stuff a lot of stuff comes up.

there but that's where that's where. connection and love and true. happiness true fulfillment is what's. going on in our inner. landscape you talk of this loss of. identity when you married will and this. quote I wrote down it feels like I can't. grasp my own Journey at times I feel. resentful and angry I don't know what to.

do about it you and will had these two. sort of different Visions for happiness. in your lives together his being that he. wanted to take over the world as a. global you know movie star all the. things that he is um and within there. you start to lose yourself a little bit. it seems this word. resentful yeah very interesting word. yeah can you give color to that word why. you why you chose to use that word cuz. it's true you know it was. like I. felt as though at that.

time all right if if I'm I I want to. help you do all of those things I'm here. to help you with that. right. um and I'm like and in. return I should get a bit of what I want. which is. connection. right and so you just for me just giving. and giving and giving and giving and. giving and forgiving.

forgetting well not even forgetting not. realizing. that I. was abandoning. myself in the hopes that if I just keep. pouring into this if I just keep pouring. into him if I keep pouring into his. dream I'm going to eventually get what I. want right and that's a false idea in so. many ways right the I and so many of us. do.

that if Will looked back and was trying. to give me whatever the hell it was I. was asking. for it wouldn't he wouldn't have been. able to accomplish it anyway because if. I'm not connected to myself if I don't. have a good relationship with. me there's nothing he can. do. so I was going to be asked out anyway. you know what I'm saying so it's like. that's part of the. journey there's no right or wrong.

everybody's always trying to find the. good guy or bad guy in people's stories. there's no good guys or bad guys we're. all wounded trying to figure this [ __ ]. out you know and so it took me a long. time to realize it is not his. responsibility to make you happy he. can't it's impossible. possible but it took me. forever hardheaded stubborn you know.

because that romantic idea and that's. why I talk about checking the. boxes it's like I did everything I was. supposed to. do you get to have your dream how come. I'm not having mine and that's because. will was doing what he wanted to. do he was making himself happy he was. making himself. happy and he says that to you doesn't he. he says you when you separate he says he. wants you to go and he's like go go go.

make yourself happy go make yourself. happy and how did you receive. that not. well not well because you know there can. be truth but you know what I'm saying. it's like how. we you know I think it was very true but. I think think at that particular point. of time I was just still really. resentful I'm just like you know oh so I. helped you get your happiness now you.

just going to you know throw me to the. curb and you know I got to do it all on. my own now you know but that's the truth. I had to do it on my own you know just. like he did you got to do it on your. own you got to do it on your. own you got to do it on your. own. and a lot of that's what this this is. about and me detoxing.

from. needing fulfillment and validation. outside of. myself detoxing from needing it from. will my marriage my. family a career like I had to get to the. Bare Bones of. Jada and walk what I call the exiled. lands. and those exiled lands are going into. the crevices of you know those places. within that were holding me back from.

myself all the fears all of the false. information and false ideas of what life. is and what a marriage is supposed to be. and you know who I was supposed to be. what a wife is like all of it. perfectionism perfectionism. and then I just went off to be. completely. imperfect and took joy in that because.

being in Hollywood I mean this is a. place that values the appearance of. perfectionism I think every looks. perfect on the surface yeah and I. think it's not a healthy. idea it's just not. healthy and it's not true and nobody can. live up to that you know which is why. I've been dismantling that need to be. perfect for myself and that's been a. painful.

ride. but leading up to your 40th birthday. which is also where the book starts. MH I I read the first pages of the. prologue and I couldn't quite believe. what I was reading because the place. you're at in your life this chronic. state of discontent that you describe. I I remember when I got to the chapter. 17 in the book which is no socker Mom. here that was the first time I had to.

stop reading because it was a lot of lot. for me to take M hearing that that's. what was going on in your head and your. mind that's the way you viewed life you. didn't see any path forward for you um. you're 39 years old um apparently you. know on the surface it seems like you've. got everything that anyone would dream. of having but internally there's this. chronic state of discontent tent. yeah if I was I often say to people if I.

was a fly on the wall but if I was a fly. inside the walls. yeah what were you what was going. through your mind 39 years old about to. turn 40 oh I was in a very very dark. place very dark. place just I remember the I read where. you said if I got to 400 p.m. every. day I was like I made. it I made it and even that was like so.

hard I mean you know I was talking to my. mother this morning because she just. read the book and she said I can't. believe you didn't talk about how you. woke up every day. crying really yeah and I was like you. know Ma I I just I think it was enough. to tell people that I was looking for a. cliff to drive off of. you know and what she brought up was. like she knew I was unhappy but she.

didn't know. why so it wasn't that people around me. didn't know that I was really. unhappy it's just that everybody. believed what I believed which is why it. was so hard for me to talk about which. is like you've got everything what are. you unhappy. about. right and so that's how I was feeling. you've got everything what are you. unhappy. about and that was just I had so much.

shame around that because I didn't. understand and even then there wasn't a. lot of conversation around mental. health and so I was just like [ __ ] it I. can't keep doing. this I went. out and it was just a really really dark. time when you say you were looking for a.

cliff to drive off of you're not saying. that theoretically or as a metaphor no. I'm saying I was looking to the point. where I was like big sir I knew exactly. the route to. drive and it's this really narrow route. and sometimes it gets really foggy there. at night and you I'm not I'm not making. it out of that out of that. drop I I remember driving. that one time going to Big Sir because I.

was looking like here like on mahand I. was like these drops aren't going to. like I need a drop that I'm not making. it. back I don't want to be disfigured I. don't want I want out and I knew I had. to make it look like an accident because. I did not want my kids to think that I. had committed. suicide. no I was I. was yeah I was in a lot of pain I was in.

a really really dark place and when. you're in that place you just can't see. your way. out and you really think I really. thought something was really wrong with. me. because what I was feeling wasn't. matching the ex exterior of my. life so I really did feel like I I was. just born.

broken and I was just wired in a way. that. just what was the. truth if that's how you felt what was in. hindsight now what do you know to be the. truth of that emotion and that state of. your life 39 40 years. old what was actually going. on that. I really feel like that sometimes when. we get into these states. of wanting to.

die you know for those of us who have. had like suicidal thoughts and what have. you sometimes it is chemical that's a. different thing I think mine was more. psychological something is asking to die. but not. you and it's a it's it's a different way. of. looking at. things right and so and it's it is a it. is a.

extreme shift in. which I had to get out of my cycle of. self-hatred. I was in a psycle of self-hatred that I. didn't even. know cuz we're unconscious of. it so the mind is tricking us you know. what I mean. we got to be careful with this this. isn't as reliable as we think you know. and so.

um but I was in a I was in a cycle of. self-hatred and it wasn't until thank. God for my son that I was you know he. introduced. me. um his friend's father did iasa and they. happen to be talking about it and they. talk to me about it Jaden came in the. kitchen he's like you got to sit down. with Moises and Mato you got to hear. about this experience ma that their dad. had was Jaden saying that intentionally.

did he know that you needed that no he. wasn't saying that in he was just. curious he was just he knows I'm curious. he knows I'm a Seeker right. right that was. divine and so I went and talked to them. and I was like hey is your dad in town. and then their dad came and I talked to. him and he I was like I need that. and then the universe opened up a door. for me to have my own. ceremony for days of like.

intense tense ceremony but that's when I. got to see that cycle of self-hatred I. was like this is. you these are your thoughts this is how. you feel about yourself this is the. problem and so the medicine really. showed me. this. pit of self-hatred I was in and it.

helped me get out of it chapter 20 of. the book you you titled surrender yeah. surrender is an interesting word why is. surrender so important in your journey. you have to surrender everything you. think you are and everything you think. you know I've spoken to a lot of people. that have done Alcoholics Anonymous and. they talk about the importance of. surrender yeah it's like surrendering. you know for. me also surrendering to a power a higher.

power and that's a constant that's every. day I have to remind myself and deep in. my surrender to a power far greater than. myself chapter 21 the holy joke the holy. slap and the holy. lessons it's interesting because there's. Sim ities between chapter 19 and chapter. 21 in that you took a lot of the blame. for.

situations chapter 19 the entanglement. conversation yeah because when you watch. that clip online at the at the red table. will looks tired and he looks sad and he. says that thing he says I'm G to get you. back yeah it did it made it look like. you had cheated on him or something I. have to like check the facts because if. you see that clip in isolation it looks. like you cheated on will or something. which is not what happened. yeah but you put that out anyway you you. could have not put that out I know do. you regret putting that out no you don't. I don't if I didn't put that out I.

wouldn't have. seen that next place of healing that I. needed because I can take so much. like. discomfort it wasn't until I saw how the. people around me were affected. did I mean my mother my kids my friends. people.

like they were like how could you do. this and I was. like well I just wanted to end. everything you. know will wasn't ready for the world to. know that we weren't together and that. we were living separate lives and I just. took it because I just wanted to stop I. just want it to. end people are like no my mother was.

like what are you she was like you need. to get your ass in. therapy she's like you are codependent. as. hell you know and everybody was just so. and then how people that love me so much. were affected by that. time I don't think. it would have. penetrated and for me to really look at. that part of. myself if it hadn't been for how the.

people around me. reacted because I don't really care. about public in that way like most. people do I don't whatever because I. understand the chaos and the just. absurdity of all of that but people who. love. me I needed that mirror to. see. that place of healing that needed to. happen in me in the dynamic Within. Myself what was that Dynamic within.

yourself just like martydom oh okay. throwing yourself under the yeah that. martyrdom that I'm I will martyrdom the. holy slap yeah you you you write about. in the book how you didn't realize that. will had actually slapped Chris yeah. until much later you thought it you. suspected maybe it was a skit or it was. a skit and then I realized it wasn't but. I didn't think that he actually made. contact with Chris looked like he ducked. it social media grabbed onto this eye. roll mhm and they um social media.

believed that that ey roll was some kind. of like go get him will yeah and even if. it was it was like I can't force will to. do anything you know and you will. weren't together we weren't together as. you know we were family I was there with. him as family but we weren't together at. that time were you surprised by the. reaction. and to that moment both for you but also. for. will yes and. no I was surprised at how much I knew I.

was going to get blamed but like I. didn't think that it was going to be I I. mean it was insane you know it was like. wow um but I knew I knew we would have I. knew it was going to be a storm in the. book you say protection is your love. language mhm he protected you didn't he. um did you see that as a Act of. love you know it's a really complicated.

moment it's a really complex moment I. would say yes and no in a certain manner. you. know. um but I definitely think in his. way but it was it was so much more it. wasn't about me that's why it's complex. right it's like it was about a lot more. than. just that moment a lot more than just me.

that's what I know you know what I mean. cuz you know well and you know where. he's come from and yeah and I I there. was a lot that was stirring up for him. at that time because of emancipation and. he and Chris have their own history. going back to the ' 80s yeah going back. to the 80s and it's a deep. one J. thank you thank you for writing this. book because it's it's not until we. understand people's context that we. understand them and when we understand.

them we realize that they are just so. much like us yeah in the wounded the. imperfect the survival the defense and. all of those things and that's exactly. what I got from Reading worthy um but. also as I said to you I think before we. started recording there were so many. moments in there that acted as the. advice that no one around me could have. given me because they've not walked in. those stairs you act as an elder to me. in the book because you you've helped me. to figure out and shine a light on a. certain area of my behavior which comes.

from um maybe a wound that I have that. is going to hold me back and lead me to. a place I don't want to go to I promise. you yes yeah exactly and you're right. you use the word breadcrumbs but that's. exactly what the book is it's these. these it's your story but throughout. your story you leave these little. nuggets of wisdom and lessons that will. guide those that read the book to a. better place in their own lives and they. can subjectively Define what that better. place is but the wisdom is enduring. because the wisdom is human and it's. true so there's something in there for.

everybody it's one of the best books. I've ever read because of the the. writing style the vividness I I felt. like I was in your grandmother's Garden. I felt like I was there at um all of the. key moments when when you have what I. describe what I thought was a panic. attack on the highway and those moments. the moments of sadness the vividness of. the writing is so is so profound but the. vulnerability of the book is the most. impressive thing it's easy not to be. vulnerable it's easy to paint a. narrative that is self- serving but. that's not what you do here you seem to.

be in the pursuit of the truth and. that's exactly what I take away from. this book so thank you so much J thank. you thank you for creating a safe space. at your gray. table and uh for holding my tears today. I appreciate that thank. [Music]. you as you may know this podcast is. sponsored by hu if you're living under a. rock you might have missed that I. discovered hu's RTD about four years ago. hu's RTD is basically a meal in a bottle.

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