Invest in This – It’ll Be Worth $1.5 Million by 2030 | World Leading Investing Expert - Cathie Wood

I've read through a decade of your. research to figure out what the best. investment is, so anyone can get rich in. the future. And you predicted that this. will grow by at least 5,000%. Yes, and my conviction is so high. because of what I do on a day-to-day. basis. Is there a woman on planet Earth. that manages more money from an. investing capacity than you? Maybe not. I'm overseeing nearly $30 billion. Okay, so I might have $500. What should. I be doing with that? So, this is all. you need to know. Cathie Wood built a.

multi-billion dollar fund by spotting. trends before anyone else. And now, with. over 40 years of market insight, she's. showing you how and where to invest, too. AI is the biggest technological. disruption in history. And this. incredible rate of change is making. people uncomfortable. But if you are on. the right side of change, investment. opportunities and job opportunities are. going to be enormous. But people don't. know what to do. For example, many. people think Apple is a very safe. investment, but it's probably going to.

be disrupted by artificial intelligence. But yet, Tesla's going to be the. biggest. You've invested just over 2 billion in. Tesla. Yeah, because Tesla is the. largest AI project on Earth. So, AI has. to be a top priority, not an. afterthought. Say I've got questions. What's your top 10 public stocks that. anybody can invest in? What's the. philosophy towards investing that will. make one rich over time? And then, if I. want to invest in AI, how should I be. investing my money? According to our.

research, these investments will go up. more than tenfold in the next 5 to 10. years and create incredible. opportunities for investors. So, number. one, This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to this show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to this. show. So, could I ask you for a favor. before we start? If you like this show. and you like what we do here and you. want to support us, the free simple way. that you can do just that is by hitting. the subscribe button. And my commitment.

to you is if you do that, then I'll do. everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better. for you every single week. We'll listen. to your feedback, we'll find the guests. that you want me to speak to, and we'll. continue to do what we do. Thank you so. much. Cathie Wood, is there a woman on planet Earth that. manages more money from an investing. capacity than you? Well, there's probably not someone. overseeing Yes, nearly $30 billion.

Uh but I know there are teams out there, including women, that manage maybe a lot. more than that. What is it that you do? Invest in companies that are going to. that are technologically enabled and. that that are going to transform the. world as we know it. Robotics, energy storage, artificial intelligence, blockchain technology, and multiomic.

sequencing in the life science space. The last is the most complicated. And. how long have you been an investor? I. started when I was 20 years old at a. company called Capital Group, and I was. introduced to the firm by Art Laffer. Now, Art Laffer, he's one of the most. important economists of our time. He. created something called the Laffer. Curve. He's advised most presidents. since President Nixon, and he's advising. President Trump as well. And how is.

these five big innovation platforms that. you speak of, how is that going to have. an impact on. the average person's life? Like, why do. they need to know this stuff? How is it going to change their. decision-making and change their career. and Now that the world is moving so. quickly into this new world, uh and Bitcoin has become so successful. an investment, many people are trying to.

figure out, okay, how how do I get. involved with the new world? And when I. say get on the right side of change, we. think there's going to be a lot of. disruption to the traditional world. order. And when I say that in terms of. people understanding what I mean, I think many people think Apple is a. very safe investment because huge hoard. of cash, very successful smartphone, you. know, number one market share of.

smartphones. in terms of profitability, by far. And yet, we can tell you, and this is. one of what's called the Mag 6 that led. the stock market over the last few. years. The top six stocks. The top six stocks, the market was very. narrowly focused on this ilk of stock, and we were saying, you know what? Apple is probably going to be disrupted. by artificial intelligence. And one of the reasons we started asking.

questions very early is what is the. ultimate mobile device? Ultimately, it's. going to be an autonomous vehicle. Apple should have been all over that, and they were trying, and we saw one. management turnover after another. This. is an AI project, and what we were. learning as they were turning that team. over. time and again is. they they weren't getting AI right. They.

were not positioning correctly. You're. concerned for Apple? I think Apple. it has so much cash, it has such a loyal. customer base. Uh it will be fine, but. maybe. its revenue growth has slowed to almost. nothing. And so, maybe it'll be a mature cash. cow. That's not what we do. We invest in. technologically enabled disruptive. innovation. AI is the biggest.

technological disruption in history. And. if they're not going to get it right, we're not going to be there. So, if I. want to invest in AI, if I agree with. you, Cathie, and I say to you, you know, I think I think you're right that AI is. the biggest technological wave coming. into shore and the biggest opportunity, how how should I be investing my money? In in in your view, how are you. investing your money to capitalize on. AI? Many people used to invest in AI. through one stock. That was Nvidia. That.

was the check-the-box, I own the GPU, the chip manufacturer, which is the most. important chip manufacturer in the AI. age. And its valuation, meaning. its. price relative to earnings, um really. got up to very heady levels. And we were. saying at the time, well, if Nvidia's. valuation is correct, there there there. are going to be a lot of other winners.

Who are they? Uh well, our largest position in the. flagship strategy, ARKK, is Tesla. And as we were trying to help people. understand why we were swapping away. from Nvidia to stocks like Tesla and. Palantir, which is a software provider, um we were trying to explain that this. new world around AI is going to happen. very quickly.

And uh Tesla is the largest AI project. on Earth. Uh I posted that on X, and. Elon liked it, so it must be true. But it is true if our research is. correct. Uh we believe that um. the entire ecosystem associated with. autonomous. uh taxi networks is going to be worth 8. to 10 trillion dollars in terms of.

revenue generation in the next 5 to 10. years. And if you want to put that in. context, the the entire GDP of the world. today is about 130 trillion. So, 10. trillion is going to move the needle. Tesla are launching their first cyber. taxi, I believe, in Austin in June, potentially. Yes, it So, the cyber cabs will launch. next year, but in Austin in June, those. will be Model Ys. And I'm looking to buy.

another Model Y because it will in. effect be a cyber cab. Okay. And if I. chose to, I could have my. Model Y drive me to work and then let it. out for the day and earn money on it, have it pick me up at the end of the. night. And some people will do that, and. Tesla will provide the platform for. that. I think a lot of people don't. realize just how much of the economy is. about driving. Yes. So, taxis, deliveries, all these kinds. of things. It's a huge Is it the single.

I think it's the single biggest employer. in the world. Yes, transportation, broadly defined. Yes. And And it's not. just on the ground, of course. As we've studied autonomous taxis. moving forward, we believe the cost of. transportation will come down fairly. dramatically. So, in the US today, an Uber costs roughly. two to four dollars per mile. Um at scale, now this may not be for 5.

to 10 years, but this is the direction. that Tesla certainly is headed. We. believe that Tesla will be able to offer. a service for 25 cents per mile. And because of that, we think there will. be much more congestion in the roads. When you cut the price of something, you. get more of it. And that led us into the. air. And so, we've been studying. studying EVTOLs. Um What's an EVTOL?

EVTOL is an electric vehicle takeoff and. landing. Like a drone type of. but for for people. Yeah. So we own. Archer in our portfolio. And of course. AI is a part of this new world as well. Um and it's a part of the defense world. as well as we are trying to save our. soldiers and um. and move out there with autonomous. drones. So autonomous. uh mobility on the ground, in the skies,

ultimately on the water. So so Tesla. So that's one big We we. think that's going to be the biggest in. the short term in terms of revenue. generation, the biggest application of. AI. We think the most profound. application of AI is going to be in. healthcare. Because of AI, and this is already. beginning to happen. Uh. we are able to diagnose.

cancer with a blood test in stage one. Think about that. If you discover cancer. in stage one, you can save most people. Crazy. Right? And maybe even before. stage one. Why? This is the convergence. of sequencing technologies. So DNA, RNA, protein sequencing. uh technologies, and then the third uh technology that is.

breakthrough and already making a. difference is CRISPR gene editing. The. convergence of those three technologies. is beginning to cure disease. So uh a. company called CRISPR Therapeutics, which is one of the largest in our ARKG. fund and in the top 10 in our ARKK fund, uh has developed a therapy. uh to cure sickle cell disease with and.

beta thalassemia. Both of those are. blood-related diseases. with one treatment. Think about that. Now, the. preconditioning for that is gruesome. It's It's It involves It's almost like. chemotherapy, uh which is going to. change. Uh but nonetheless, there's huge. demand for it because, you know, these. people go to the emergency room 10 to 20. times per year for blood transfusions to.

save their lives. Of course they're going to go through a. tough regimen. They want to live a more. normal life. Uh so it's already. generating revenue. Both Both of those. are already generating revenue for. CRISPR Therapeutics and a company called. Vertex. So this this. Well, there's three or four different. companies you've mentioned here. Tesla, the other one was Archer. Archer is the EVTOL company, yes. So. it's your flying cars, basically. They're your drone cars. Yes. And CRISPR. and Tesla. So if I start with Tesla, you. were bullish on Tesla. You were making.

big predictions about Tesla before. pretty much anyone else out there. I. think in 2015. Mhm. And at the time in. 2015, you said that you believed the. stock would get above 4,000, roughly. Right, on the old stock. Yeah, on the before the stock split. And. you were right by some significant. margin. Um. I think you predicted it would be 4,000. before the stock stock splits. And I. think at its peak, that equates to about. 18,000, maybe 12,000 at its peak. Yes,

well. region. We We We were right about two. early years. or Tesla got to where we believed it. would go two years before most expected. You know, in 2018 and 19, many people, as Elon was dis discussing. and describing production hell for the. Model 3, um many people thought the company would. go bankrupt. And uh and yet we knew.

that if Elon Musk. could create a reusable rocket that. could land on a barge. in the water, he would be able to figure. out how to produce at scale the Model 3. That was to us a simple um conclusion. Now, as in hindsight, as we're learning. from Tesla, production hell, and they. themselves were worried. That's why Elon.

slept on the floor in the production. factory and just became maniacally. involved, which is how he works uh as uh. So yes, and now our prediction, the. stock is I'm not going to be exactly. right on this, 270 280 uh dollars. Uh. our prediction in five years is 2,600. And 90% of that valuation comes not from. the electric vehicle, but from this.

robotaxi platform. Uh because the. electric car, if you think about it, is, you know, a one-shot sale. You know, sell and hope they come back when. they're replacing their car. This. essentially means that we'll be driving. cars that we can. click a button and then then it becomes. an autonomous taxi. So I go on holiday, I have my my Tesla car at my house. When. I go on holiday, the car turns into a. taxi and starts chauffeuring people. around. It makes me money. But also, from the consumer's perspective that are.

trying to hail a taxi, at any point I. can go on my Tesla app, press a button, a autonomous car comes to me with no one. driving it, and it takes me to my. destination with no driver at all. Um and then the recurring revenue model, I believe, is you subs you subscribe. probably could It It could be a You. could subscribe to the network or they. could uh. you know, maybe it could be either or, subscription or ala carte if you don't. think you're going to use it that much.

So. now, when I'm here in the UK and Europe, many people do not believe what what you. just said. And and they don't because. your regulators have not allowed FSD. here. I think they might I I. Somewhere in Europe, I think they're. beginning to consider it. Maybe even in the UK here, they have are. considering it. Um in St. Petersburg, Florida, where. we're based, um.

I can go from my house to anywhere, and. flawlessly the car will take me there. Now, we still have to sit in the. driver's seat for now, but in June uh or. soon thereafter, when they turn the. system on, if regulators permit. Right. now, we're state by state. I think. that's going to change so that we'll. have federal regulations so that this. can happen a lot faster. One other thing.

about Tesla, though, in that 2,600. uh dollar number, we do not include much for humanoid. robots. Now, I. This And and this is happening faster. than we thought. Um. she And the reason it's happening faster. is humanoid robots, they are the convergence of the same. three technologies or innovation. platforms as robotaxis. Robo robots, robotics. So actuators and.

so forth, getting them to work. Energy storage, battery operated. And. AI. Mhm. So Tesla's way ahead of the. game on humanoid robots. And yet we have. very little. Now, Elon thinks that the. humanoid robot business is going to. dwarf the robotaxi business. And we. think he's right, uh but longer term. So. as I mentioned, we expect all in, around.

the world, including China, not just. Tesla, but the entire ecosystem, an 8 to. 10 trillion dollar market uh in the next. five to 10 years for humanoid robots. Uh we expect a 26 trillion dollar. revenue market. Now, that's going to be. a little further along. Uh robotaxis. will happen faster, but it may not be as. distant as we were once thinking.

For anyone that doesn't know, humanoid. robots are basically robots that we'll. have in our home and at work. Mhm. So. these are There was a video that I think. um Elon retweeted the other day showing. one of the human humanoid robots. dancing. Dancing, yes. Was that real? I was like looking at. that video thinking, surely that's not. real. But he confirmed, I believe, that. it was real. Yes. Yes. Now, when we went to the. cybercab event, uh there were some humanoid robots. dancing there, but they were tethered. and they were remotely controlled. Yeah. Uh now, cybercab, I think, was.

About a year ago. Yes, maybe. So since then, they've been able to untether them, and. uh I do believe that those that dancing. robot was was um. not tethered and not remotely. controlled. It was quite shocking to see. a robot doing that, because if a robot. can have that dexterity and mobility, and then you overlay that with the AI. technologies that are accelerating. rapidly, it begs the question.

And the question is quite clear, which. is what about humans? Yes. Um and just to put a finer, you know, note on this, um. Elon will not be satisfied until these. robots can thread a needle. So that's where we're going. What does. that mean for humans? So, you know, the. history of technology. is that it has been a net job creator. throughout history. But, humanoid robots are getting awfully.

close to what we do, right? So, it's a. good question. I I think creativity is a. big part of that, ingenuity and. creativity. And, you know, I think. there's going to be a. they're going to be a. lot of new inventions uh in the future. So, let's see what those are. But, even. today, there's something called vibe. coding. Have you heard of it? Okay. Because we've moved into the world of. natural language programming. What is.

vibe coding for someone that doesn't. know? It's. Vibe coding means you know a natural. language. I know We all know a natural. language. Ours is English for the most. part, but it could be any language. Um. we're going to be able to go to chat GPT. or to especially now, they just. launched, I think, last week something. called Codex, Replit, uh and Anthropic's. fantastic for for um.

programming. And, we'll say, "This is. what I'm attempting to do." in English. language. And I And I've seen demos of. this just internally. We We're going to. replace some of our software that we're. buying from outsiders and customize it. for us because, you know, we don't have. to buy off the shelf anymore. One size. fits all. I think there's going to be a. lot more customization and. personalization. and creativity explosion here. You know, it's interesting that this is happening.

when the demographic profile of the. developed world is as it is. Uh we have. a very low unemployment rate in the US. I know the unemployment rates in Europe. and the UK have been dropping. to much lower levels than where where. they were stuck for years. I remember. thinking, "Wow, double digits.". Uh. we have a demographic issue. I mean, if. you if you watch what uh. Elon Musk worries about the most, he he. worries about the population implosion.

uh because. Collapse? Uh collapse. Collapse in. population in the developed world um. because we're not uh. uh. we're not producing children above the. fertility rate. We're We are setting up. for a shrinkage with China's going. there, Japan is going there. And so, we're going to need productivity. uh. productivity to help us if we can't find.

human beings. Uh okay. So, you're So, you're saying. that the ro- robotics and AI could. actually fill the gap that we lose in. terms of productivity because our. society's going to be like an inverted. pyramid. It's going to be more um. elderly people and less young people. Yes. Yes. are going to. Yes, absolutely. It's Productivity is. going to be essential. So, as we're. looking at real growth ahead and mhm. when you think about real growth. uh you should be thinking, "Okay,

somebody's benefiting from this." Um and. I'm going to set what I I'm going to set. up the number here uh by describing what. has happened historically. If you look. from 1500. to 1900. and you try and figure out what real GDP. growth was back then, real economic. growth. um as best as uh Brett Winton, our chief. futurist, in consultation with academics.

can determine. It was roughly 0.6%. per year. And then we had the Industrial. Revolution. Uh we had. the internal combustion engine, telephone, electricity. And for the past 125. years, real GDP growth has been 3%. And and most li- living standards have. gone up over time. Some more than.

others. I know that's a debate, but most. have gone up. If we as we look forward. based on the five innovation platforms. around which we have centered our. research and investing. if we're right, real GDP growth in the. next five years could accelerate to. 7.3%. And that gives you a sense of uh. the economic uh. activity, wealth generation out there.

And. what when we are presenting to. investors, we are actually presenting to. them not only because they're investors. but because they have children or. grandchildren who need to adapt to this. new world. And our mantra in giving away. our research, which we do. is get on the right side of change. We. also do podcasts. Um we we try We do a lot of outreach.

because we think this is a very. important moment in time. Uh seize the moment, grab hold of these. new technologies. because that growth rate is more than. twice where we've been. And if you are. on the right side of change we think the. opportunities are going to be enormous. Uh investment opportunities and job. opportunities. Yeah, I feel like I've I. feel like I'm. I feel like I can't figure out what.

how the displacement rate. meets the creation rate. So, the destruction rate of of current. jobs will meet the creation rate of new. jobs because many of these new jobs I I. guess there's some of them we can't. predict yet. I I understand that. But, even the ones that we can't predict yet. would need to be inherently. human, i.e. need the skills of a human. for them to be occupied by by humans.

Um so, what category of stuff is that? Like, my my girlfriend's a breathwork. practitioner. She's upstairs now with 10. women and she's teaching them. breathwork. Okay. So, she's fine. Yeah? Like, cuz. they're doing that in person, what. whatever. She's fine. Well, and. maybe she's not if people decide. it on chat GPT. Yeah, on chat GPT. But, but if they want to be with a group of. women. Yeah. and, you know, learn from an. expert whom they respect. There's as. much the social experience. That's going.

to become more important. Relationships. are going to become more important. Many. people in our business. I think are going to be out of jobs. because. uh the business has become really. nothing I I shouldn't be this. disrespectful. It's not quite right. But, uh at all. Uh but you know, so many. are just hugging benchmarks. uh whether it's S&P 500 or MSCI World or. the Nasdaq that a machine can do that. A.

machine can do that easily. And that is. what passive investing is is machines. doing it. I think in order to earn a place in the. new world, you've got to add a lot of. value, more value than a machine can. So, in our case, we're saying "Okay, well, our stocks are not in those. benchmarks." Uh and therefore. you know, they're they're We are doing. original research trying to figure out.

who they are and where they are, these. these companies that are going to. transform the world. Why can't AI. replace what you're doing in terms of. So, and we think about that all the. time. So, AI. can. use pattern recognition. It's all based. on history, right? Uh it can use pattern. recognition, maybe, to do what we're. doing. What are the three characteristics that. define an innovation platform for us?

The most important one is they follow. something called Wright's Law, which. measures the learning curve, how fast. the costs are going to decline. with this new technology. Technology is. deflationary. Costs fall over time and. they're passed through into lower prices. or better performance, one or the other. Um. that is the most important. A machine. can figure that out, I'm sure. But, asking the questions uh are going to be.

important. Like. there wasn't before 2014 when we started. Arc much on autonomous mobility or. eVTOLs. or, for that matter, AI. AI had become. science fiction. There weren't any. breakthroughs in recent years. But, then. we got some breakthroughs. So, could So, Wright's Law is the first, figure out. that cost curve decline, and and see how. quickly the technology can prolific.

proliferate across sectors. That's the. other criteria criterion here. The. technologies. that we are following are going to cut. across economic sectors and apply uh. to more than one group of people. And. then, the third is that these. technologies serve as launching pads for. new technologies. So, in the case of DNA. sequencing, which was the base.

technology we needed that. before CRISPR gene editing. uh could be created. We needed to be. able to understand what was mutating in. the genome, where the programming errors. were, so that gene editing could come in. and edit out those programming errors. And do you think in 5 10 years from now. that unemployment is going to be higher. or lower? In 5 or 10 years,

um. let's let's assume we don't have a. policy mistake and and a recession. So. just just steady state, I think it will be the same or lower. And most of this is because those baby. boomers are retiring. Uh they. come out of the employment. They come out of the labor force. And uh. and the generations following them are. smaller. Even now what's happening is.

uh we're we're passing through the baby. boom echo, meaning the children of the. baby boom. That cohort was. I don't think it was any bigger than the. baby boom uh. baby boom population. Do you think. there's because of the speed of and the. acceleration of AI the like this the. length of careers has radically reduced. cuz you would go to like you'd go to. school, then you go to university, you. qualify as I know an accountant and.

that's like a 10-15 year process. You. get a job as an accountant, you start. working your way up. But now with AI. coming in, these some of these jobs are. being. completely annihilated. extremely quickly. At the same time vibe. coding. Yeah. is booming. So I think what's. going to happen and this will be very. healthy for productivity. We're going to. have a lot more experimentation and. people taking risks on themselves. Uh. and maybe this idea of a corporation as.

we know it is going to change radically. You know, crypto is enabling distributed. autonomous organizations. Uh just like Bitcoin, there's there's no. no one governing it, right? The it's a distributed network. And you know, let's see how these do and. how vibe coding. and AI integrate into the crypto I and.

I'm going to stop calling it crypto. because it should be called digital. assets world, which legitimizes it more. Crypto sounds nefarious. Digital assets. is where you know, more than. young people and uh I'll say. young people are spending more than half. of their discretionary their free time. online. And so property ownership online is. becoming more important. It's it's being. legitimized by the way people are.

spending their time. On this point of. robotics and AI, your your biggest. position I believe is Tesla, isn't it in. your fund? Yes. Um. but obviously Elon decided that he. wanted to go into politics. He wanted to do. Oh, Elon. the Department of Government. Efficiency called Dodge. So teaming up. with Trump to try and eliminate. government waste. Now as an investor. Mhm. you must. not love that. Well, the I I have two um. I have Cuz it did impact.

two points of view. performance of the company. Do you know. I have I drive a Tesla when I go to. America and it was the first time ever. on the last trip to America in January. I live in LA now. Oh. Um what what I'm. driving my you know, my cybertruck. It's. the full self-driving. It's incredible. But it was the first time ever I. thought, [ __ ] I like I could be. attacked. So I probably shouldn't get a. cybertruck. I should probably get. something else cuz I had all these. reports of people being attacked. Mhm. And so it was quite interesting to. hear in the earnings report which I. listened to that there's been this. decline in revenue in profitability in.

vehicle sales growth etc. in Q1 of this. year. Mhm. which I think even Elon in that in. that earnings call highlights is a. consequence of him becoming political. Yes. Uh I think that surprised him. Uh. um. so. I have many thoughts about this. Our. government has become so bloated, it is. scary. And uh our indebtedness is. growing. And if we want to remain the reserve.

currency of the world we're at risk of. of losing it and and on our tail is the. whole. digital asset world, right? So. um. government spending is taxation. It's either taxation that's going to. happen immediately or will happen in the. future. or will happen through inflation, which. is the most regressive tax at all. So I. think his the the sentiment was was. right in terms of you know, getting in.

there and seeing what technology can do. for the government, which is really. what's happening. I'm watching it in the. FDA how they're starting to use AI. It's. phenomenal what's happening. Uh so. the question I usually get So I I'm very. happy that uh. half of the solution is understanding. the problem, that someone is in there. with that focus and determination. He of. course has said he's stepping away uh.

this month as a matter of fact to spend. more time with his companies. Which you. must be happy about. Well, of course I'm happy about it, but. I I have with the exception of this. political dynamic, I don't think. that Elon. uh not being there on a day-to-day basis. is what has caused the problem in the. first quarter. It was much more macro. We had a negative quarter in real GDP. growth in the first quarter. So macro.

which is hitting everyone and the. overlay of this political dynamic. The. news cycle, thank goodness, moves fast. and so we'll we'll be through that I. think. And by the way, there are news. reports even this weekend saying those. who were feeling about him you know, as it relates to Dodge and you know, one. party are having a change of heart. because tax rates are going to come down.

because we're being more disciplined on. the on the government spending side. Elon's way of. managing his companies is to attract the. best and the brightest, not only. scientists, engineers but also business. people. Uh they these are people who want to. solve the hardest problems in the world. Um he sets a timeline. that seems uh reasonable to him for.

milestones to occur. And he doesn't interfere unless they. start missing those milestones or the. timing of those milestones. Then he gets. involved and that's where you hear he'll. go in and he'll just fire people. wholesale and you know, and and you. know, get the program going again. And. he's he's done that certainly at Tesla. He's done that at all of his companies. And so he's really.

troubleshooter-in-chief. Once he understands and has set a. strategy. he then becomes troubleshooter-in-chief. Have you met him? Oh yes, we did. actually. Our. first podcast with him was in 2019. Oh I. saw that podcast. production hell. Yeah. And uh we were so. happy. So as you know, we have a social. strategy, so we push our research out. through social media as we give it away. or as we're evolving it. And uh he liked.

a piece of research that Tasha Keeney. had put out on autonomous back then. And. I was on a phone call I couldn't get. off, but I heard this whooping and. screaming through the office and I I I. thought it sounded good. It wasn't an. emergency, so I I didn't have to leave. that call, but I got out. I said, "What. happened?" "Elon." And I said, "Okay, ask him if we can do a podcast." And we. were there the next week. Oh, incredible. Yeah. What do you think of.

him as a entrepreneur? I think he's the Thomas Edison of our. age in terms of uh in terms of his. um. in innovative ingenuity and. I also think having met him a number of. times, I think he's a very good person. He wants to do the right thing. If I had. to say one thing, he wants to do the. right thing to transform.

the lot of most of humanity. And he. started. uh with Tesla, SpaceX and Tesla. Tesla, you know, was a an environmental. move. Which I think a lot of people. attacking his cars who are probably very. um. supportive of the environmental. movement, uh they they've forgotten. Sending. uh. a rocket to Mars and with humanoid.

robots and ultimately people um he. thinks will transform. life on Earth as well because as we've. learned from space history uh what we. learn about material science and. technologies that help us break through. into these very difficult or problems to. solve is going to help us here on Earth. as well. Uh so I think he's a very good.

person and wants to do the right thing. That if I had to describe him, that's. what I say other than genius of our. time. I often wonder, right? You know, cuz. he's had such a impact on the world in. many, many ways through the companies he. started. I think the uh the biggest risk. really is just his own his own health. Doesn't seem to sleep much. You know though, he he says that he does. sleep. I think he he he he recommends, I. think, if I'm right on this, getting 7. hours sleep a night. Uh.

uh and. yes, but when when he is focused, uh you know it. And I mean, people even. look and they they There were many. pictures of him, whether it was. standing, you know, with other policy. makers, and then he zones into something you. know he's zoned in and thinking about. only that and a problem that he wants to. solve. So, You've invested what, just. over 2 billion in Tesla? Let's see. So,

it would be roughly, yes. In that. region? Mhm. Bitcoin. Mhm. You invested in Bitcoin. very, very early. What was the the first. price what you bought Bitcoin for in I. think it was 2015? Yes. It was in. um the summer of 2015. Uh we got in at roughly $250. Uh today it's $104,000, I think, roughly. So, we did get in very. early.

And we knew we were onto something. uh really when people were making fun of. us saying, "Okay, that's a marketing. trick. You're you're new to our business. and you know, new to our to the new fund. world and uh you're trying to attract. attention." And we were thinking, "Wow, they have no idea how much research. we've done on this.". And Art Laffer, uh my professor, again, from USC, we had. him uh. we had him read our first white paper on.

Bitcoin. Bitcoin, could it serve the three roles. of money? So, means of exchange, what we. use every day uh to to buy things, a store of value, uh like gold, and unit of account. Would prices be. quoted in terms of Bitcoin? Chris Bradysky was our first analyst on. Bitcoin, wrote the paper, Art Reddit, and you know, from a added to it.

enormously in terms of economic theory, which was great for us. And then he said to us, he said, "This. is what I've been waiting for since the. US closed the gold window in 1971. A rules-based. global. monetary system. like Bretton Woods under the gold. exchange standard.". And I said, "Art, that's a very big.

idea. Uh how big is it?". And he said, "Well, how big is the the. monetary base of the US? Uh back then it was 4 and 1/2 trillion. And Bitcoin's market cap or network. value was 6 billion.". And I said, "Okay, that's a very big idea.". And we were trying to get it into our. portfolios. Regulators were hesitant and. but I bought it right then for for. myself and haven't sold it and I'm very.

happy with it. You bought it for. yourself personally? Personally, because we couldn't buy it. $250. Uh so, we couldn't buy it back then, but. we finally got through the regulatory. process and we were able to put the New. York Stock Exchange said, "Okay, you can. put a 1% position in the portfolio.". And it was of a grantor trust called. GBTC. So, we did. And we just never sold it. They didn't tell us we had to keep it at.

at 1%. So, Oh, it's risen to be more. Oh, yes, it it ballooned. And what is it. about Bitcoin that you believe. was and is still a a good investment. opportunity for the average person? Yes. So, at this at this price, it's about a $2. trillion uh market. uh market cap. And so, halfway to that original 4 and. 1/2 trillion, but our price target actually has.

expanded since then. Um because it's not just a global. monetary system. It is a new asset class. And that's a very big idea as well. What. makes a new asset class? And we haven't. had one truly since. equities in the 1600s. When you say a. new asset class, you mean a completely. new category of. of funding companies, yes. Right?

So, an asset class would be something. like technology is an asset class, right? No, it would be like stocks, bonds, commodities, real estate. This is a new asset class and most. people will agree with that. We we did a. study on it. If this asset does not perform like. other assets, in other words, it. provides diversification for funds. And because it is behaving differently,

institutions have to consider it. uh because they're competing against. each other and if one puts it in, they all know they're competing against. each other. So, others have to consider. it. And uh we believe that part of the. opportunity has not been tapped. And. just to put some numbers on this, right. now, we're approaching 20 million Bitcoin.

outstanding. Which means the number of. Bitcoin that. uh have been minted. over time. uh by Bitcoin miners. So, there's 21. million in total, right? There will be. at the end of the minting process, 21. million. So, we have only 1 million to. go. Yeah. Uh 1 million would be. what is that?

That would be a hundred billion dollars. worth, a little more than that, right. now. So, just for someone that might not. know much about Bitcoin, Bitcoin is. mined using computers and so far they've. mined 20 million of them and there's 1. million of them left to mine. Mhm. Yeah. So, institutions. really just started considering Bitcoin. cuz the SEC gave the. uh the the green light. uh to Bitcoin with uh the the approval.

of the spot Bitcoin ETF in January of. last year. And it takes a while for institutions to. do their research and and commit. Uh and so, they're just now committing. and there's only a hundred billion. dollars. of new ma- market cap uh that is going. to be created, whereas they have. trillions of dollars under management. Um and so, we think there will be a lot.

of incremental demand and uh to satisfy. a lot of that demand, someone's going to. have to sell. Which means the price goes up. Which yeah, if people don't want to sell. because Bitcoin's been awfully good. And. our forecast, right now it's um. right now the Bitcoin's around a. hundred, a hundred five thousand. Our. forecast. uh for 2030.

is 1.5 million dollars. And we do that uh. uh. the building blocks for that, the three. biggest building blocks. are institutional, which has barely. started, uh store of value or digital gold. Young. people. are much more. uh. comfortable with digital gold than gold. So, on the institutional side, that.

means institutions, investment. institutions start investing in it. Mhm. Young people start investing it in it as. a way to save and store their money. Yes. Yes. And then uh the. the the the the very important use case. that many people do not discuss is how. important Bitcoin and stablecoins, which. are backed by US Treasuries, are going to become to the emerging. markets.

Uh in emerging markets, many of them are. at the whim of policy makers who uh. show no discipline in fiscal or monetary. policy. And so, they they're used to. going through booms and busts and booms. and bailed out by the IMF and they need. an insurance policy. So, if you're in. Venezuela, you need a currency that's. going to be stable. Exactly. Well, this Bitcoin is. uh so, stablecoins are stable vis-à-vis.

uh the dollar. Uh Bitcoin is more of an investment. because. it does appreciate over time. Now, you. go through it's volatile, no question, and that's the first thing people have. to know about it. Uh but it is becoming. less volatile as more and more. investors hold it. So, you think Bitcoin. will potentially. multiply in value by 15 times in the. next 5 years? Mhm.

Wow, that'd be pretty crazy. It's a very. big idea because it is a new asset. class, it does represent a global. monetary system unlike any other digital. asset out there. Um it is backed by the largest computer. network in the world. The the layer one, which is the base layer, has not been. hacked. Think about that, since 2009. when it was released, not been hacked.

How many how how many systems can say. that? And it is a technology. It is native to. the internet. And again, digital assets or any Bitcoin, Ether, Solana, all of them exist because they're vying. to be the native currencies to the. internet. And to to enable smart. contracts. and really transform the financial.

services industry. Why did you invest in. Coinbase? Coinbase is um. an exchange. for for digital assets. And uh and increasingly derivatives. It has just It has gone global. It just bought Deribit, which is the. largest options uh exchange out there. Uh and it owns a futures. So, it's.

really going after uh. the derivatives market where there's a. huge amount of activity, which is. fantastic because it's all legitimizing. digital assets. And it is the most regulatory compliant. exchange in the world. Um. Binance is another major exchange, but. has had more run-ins with regulators. around the world and really hasn't been. allowed into the United States.

It also wants to become. part of the new payments infrastructure. And so is evolving strategies that way. as well. Um we've gotten to know management very. well. They fought the fight against. regulators in a magnificent way, and. they have educated policy makers um. importantly, who understand that this. innovation we almost lost this. innovation to the rest of the world. because of our regulatory stance.

Uh they've helped policy makers. understand that, "Hey, you know, this this infrastructure is. what developers did not build into the. internet in the early '90s cuz they. didn't know finance or commerce would. take place. That's all this is. It's. that simple, right?" So, if I'm trying. to invest in just to summarize it, if. I'm trying to invest in AI, that you'll. keep positions there and you'll keep. thoughts on companies like Tesla. I.

heard you invest in Twilio. Uh we we had invested in Twilio. They. had a uh they had a management turnover, so we moved away from that. But uh. Palantir Palantir? Yes, Palantir is a platform as a service. company, which we think uh is not only. going to help governance move. governments move into the digital age, like our defense department, and now. it's moving into other departments, but. also these huge huge enterprises.

because it's not forcing them to rip and. replace anything. They'll build on top. of whatever technology infrastructure is. there and over time just use usurp the. role of the legacy technologies. So, very important company we think in uh. the digital age. It's had a very big. run. We have taken profits and, you. know, while it was having a big run, Nvidia was selling off. It was down more. than 50%. So, we put some of our.

Palantir proceeds in back into Nvidia. Is there anything else in the AI bucket. when you're thinking about stocks? Well, when you're thinking about uh. chip companies in particular, uh TSM is the platform for chip. manufacturing. It doesn't matter who. wins. We We do think there are going to. be many more competitors to Nvidia. Nvidia is still number one. Have you. heard about Grok?

Oh, yes, Grok we are invested in in our. um. in our private fund. Oh, okay. So, just. for people that might be confused. Do. you mean Grok with a Q? Uh yes, that's. that's in our private fund. We own We do. own Grok. And that's a very important. company on the inference side of um. of the equation. I've invested in Grok. as well. Yeah. I should probably disclaim that. Well, I think I think you're going to do. very well. Um. So, TSM though is where all the chip.

manufacturers go uh for production. It. is the most sophisticated manufacturer. of chips uh in the world. Uh there is. geopolitical risk there. Most of its. business is in Taiwan. It is. diversifying into uh. certainly into the US, and I think even. into Europe. Uh so, I think uh that will. continue to be a very important company. as well. So, what are the What are you. What's your top 10? In terms of public stocks that anybody.

can invest in. If you had to give me your top 10. So, I'd have to give you and they're listed. on our website, and I won't go in order, I'm sure, but of course, Tesla, Coinbase, uh Robinhood, uh Roku is uh an operating. system for connected TVs, highly. misunderstood stock. CRISPR. Therapeutics, which uh is. Gene editing? Gene editing for sickle cell disease and.

uh beta thalassemia. Uh Palantir, I think I've mentioned uh. in the AI software space. Archer just. moved into the top 10. It's the EVTOL. company, which and it also signed a. deal, an exclusive deal on both sides, which was quite impressive, uh with. Anduril, which Anduril, which is the um. most sophisticated defense tech play uh.

and is growing like gangbusters. So, so. that's terrific. Shopify, uh which is a shopping platform back end. and really using uh AI. Roblox? Oh, that's the one we're missing. Roblox. Roblox. is a game, right? Yes, it's a. user-generated gaming company. Uh the fascinating and it's also a. social platform. Uh it started for children younger than.

13 years old. And what's interesting. about it is. they've stayed with it because 60% of. its user base now is above 13. Which is very interesting. It's the. largest user-generated. uh. um. content provider out there. And what is fascinating about it is I. know one of my friend's daughter has. started her own dress shop on Roblox,

and what she doesn't understand is that. she's she's learning about business, but. she's also learning how to code, especially in this new vibe coding. world. So, I think it's going to be a. very important company going forward. Uh the the interesting thing about. gaming. and technology transitions is that it is. the only entertainment median medium. that has not fallen apart with. technology transitions.

Mhm. Um it has actually grown because those. who love their games from 25 years ago. still play them. It's grown with each. technology revolution. So, uh and. user-generated content in gaming is. um the next big thing. A business is only as good as the people. inside it. So, how do you make sure. you're hiring the best? Our sponsor. LinkedIn can help you find these. applicants quickly. I believe in taking. time to hire slowly, but I also.

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I will speak to you then. If you had a thousand dollars to invest. Mhm. and you had to invest it somewhere, where would you be investing it? Well, and how would you be like the general. philosophy towards wealth creation at. such a stage if you had a thousand. dollars? How would you be thinking about. creating wealth for yourself? A couple of things. Averaging into. um.

either an ETF. What's an ETF? ETF, exchange-traded. fund. So, it treats a group of stocks. like one stock. Mhm. So, ARKK. is. it's nearly it's 35 36 stocks, but you can buy them. by purchasing ARKK. And you can do that. on your mobile phone by downloading. do it on your mobile phone. of different apps that allow you to just.

buy that one ETF, which means you own 35. stocks. Yes. And. And your team are basically choosing. what those 35 stocks are. Yes. based on your research. Right. And. ARKK are our highest conviction stocks, uh and they they they offer an exposure. to all of the innovation platforms that. we've talked about. Whereas ARKI here in. Europe is focused primarily on. artificial intelligence and robotics.

Because we think that convergence is. going to be pretty explosive. What you. don't get there. uh and you do get in ARKK, we also have in another very focused. fund, ARKG, which is really health care. applications of AI. Um and and other. health care other health care names that. we think uh are going to be pretty. transformative in the new world as.

regulators really understand how. important AI is going to become to. discovery, uh research, trials, development, uh to. diagnostic tests, and to curing disease. Another question popped up, which is. about Ethereum and these other. cryptocurrencies. Do you invest in any. of these these others? Yes, we have uh. we have Well, in our public funds, we've. put them. I I don't think we can own. them here in the UK yet, but in the in. the US, uh we have them in um.

some of our funds, both of them. Mhm. They're key to the financial services. re- revolution. So, uh to get people to understand and feel. comfortable with that, uh we don't call. it the crypto revolution. It's the. digital assets revolution, and it's. simply the finternet, the financial. internet. Okay, so that So, we do. We. do. And do you believe Are you more. bullish on the price potential of. Bitcoin than Ethereum?

Yes, we think Bitcoin is the biggest. idea. It serves the three three. revolutions. Global monetary system, they do not. Um. New asset class, they are part of a new. asset class, but Bitcoin's going to be. the biggest. And new technology, it's. the most secure. uh blockchain technology out there. What about all these other Solana and. all these other So, Ether and Solana, so. the big three are the are those are the.

the big three. Um and we think they'll. all be successful, all three of them. Bitcoin the most. We're very interested. in stablecoins, but that's just like. cash. Uh and you know, there are. millions of crypto assets out there. We. think most of them die. Is there any way. to invest in stablecoins? Like how do you invest them in in the. stablecoin? right now, it is through Coinbase. They. have a deal with Circle. Um any any revenue that Circle.

generates, it's it's it's stablecoin is. USDC. Yeah. Any revenue, they split 50/50. uh in US. Uh Circle itself has announced that it. is going public, and so we're looking. forward to that. And what's what's the the sort of. psychology or mentality one has to adopt. to be a good investor? Depends what you've bought. If you buy a. strategy like ours, which would be in. the aggressive growth strategy,

put it in you know, averaging in over. time, just like with Bitcoin as I. mentioned earlier. Uh averaging in over time. What does averaging in mean? Averaging. in means, you know, buy a little every. month, maybe every payday. I think one of my daughters was buying. Bitcoin every week, but not a Bitcoin. She couldn't do that. A Satoshi, you. know, so. And. close your eyes. Like you're this is a. long-term investment. If we're right, uh.

according to our analysis. Now, you This. is our research, our analysis, no. promises. We can't do that, but. according to our research, the. technologies around which we have. centered our research. uh and which have focused our. investments, they we believe will go up more than. tenfold in the next five to ten years. And that's how much explosive growth we.

have ahead of us as these technologies. converge. and create incredible opportunities for. investors. And you know, I'm hearing a lot of. invest a lot of people um as they get. into investing, of course they have. their day jobs, but once they have. accrued enough, you know, they're making choices about. dialing down their day jobs and spending. more time investing. You asked, what are.

some of the jobs of the future going to. be? I think individual investors. are going to be providing for themselves. if they are investing on the right side. of change. So, if you're right, that. means that by investing your fund, I'd. make a thousand percent return roughly. Yes, no promises, but this is all based. on research, and you can find it in our. big ideas. Uh big ideas 2025 is on our website, ark-invest.com.

Uh and you can find a lot more. of information about our funds on. ark-funds. uh dot com. And I should probably say. this is not in investing advice. It is not, and and I want to make sure. Do your own research. You can lose all. of your money. Yes. You can lose all of. it if you decide to do any of these. things. But that's why we put ark-invest. separate from the fund site, because. that's just research. Learn. Learn what. you're investing in, or learn why we've.

invested uh the the way we have. You. know, that's that's what we do all day. long is we try and help Well, first of. all, we're doing the research. We are. making the investments, but I think one. of the most important things we do. is communicate what we're doing and why. we're doing it. What do you think of Trump tariffs, everything that's going on in America at. the moment? What's, you know, for the. average person, should they be.

concerned? Are you bullish? Do you think. Trump's got it right? If you look at. what happened to the equity market when. Trump was elected, the stock market. Uh. yes, the stock market. It went crazy to. the upside, as did our strategy. And why? The promise was. deregulation, and that I think is. underestimated uh how important it is, because we're strangling in regulation. It's just. This is not our DNA. We We got to get. out from under this.

Lower taxes, lo- lower interest rates is what he. wants, of course. Um and lower tariffs. What he didn't tell us. was exactly how he was going to go about. that process. And it has it has felt chaotic. And I've had to go out and explain. what's going on, try to explain what's. going on.

And I I have to tell you, it scared me. silly to see what was going on, because. I knew that businesses. were paralyzed, and that we could have a. mess on our hands. And I certainly com- communicated. through my channels. Art communicated. through his channels. In fact, I think. in one publication, he said, I have. never been more scared in my career.

We were trying to really get into. Trump's head, and and I know President. Trump listens to Art, but he also. listens to a lot of other people. One of. whom was Peter Navarro, who seemed to have. a hold on Trump when it came to tariffs. And yet, when I saw Treasury Secretary. Bessant really push aside Navarro, and. that could only happen with Trump, I. knew we were going to be okay. I knew we.

were going to be okay, because. throughout all of this chaos, I think what he is trying to do is not. only get tariffs on the US down. throughout the world, but maybe more important, get non-tariff. trade barriers down. Like for example, I didn't even know the UK would not. accept our beef or ethanol. Well, Mhm.

now you're accepting our beef and. ethanol. I I don't know if I don't know. if people in the supermarkets will buy. it, but anyway, this was but other. countries much many many more non-tariff. trade barriers. And so he is just trying. to bust that up, you know, make it more. visible. You know, for example, Canada, I think. they charged a 250% tariff on our milk. And one of President Trump's promises.

was to take care of the farmers. Okay? That's why you see the rhetoric around. Canada. Now, do I agree with his style? I would never do it that way. I'd never. do it that way. I and it was. unfathomable, you know, for me because. he is sensitive to business and he must. have known that everything was going to. stop. And. but he also knows that he has to sound.

crazy for other people to take him. seriously. And he has and people have to. believe he will do crazy things in order. for people to take him seriously. And he. does do crazy things. So, do you think. it's going to work out? I do. You do? And I think the stock market is. beginning to smell it. If I if I just had to invest in one. stock right now, what stock would you. recommend I invest in? Okay, well, I have to give you our Your. portfolio. So, it'd be Tesla. It would be Tesla if I if I had to give.

you one stock. Okay, interesting. Because think about it. It is it is a. convergence. among three of our major platforms. So, robots, energy storage, AI. And it's not stopping with robo-taxis. There's a story beyond that with. humanoid robots. And our $2,600 number. has nothing for humanoid robots. We just. thought it'd be an investment period and. you know, the re.

But I think he's going to start. generating not only productivity gains. internally, but revenues from humanoid robots. What. are you concerned about? In terms of the way that the world is. going and everything that's happening. What are the things that keep you up at. night? I've got many of concerns, so. got many unanswered questions and. worries about how things might play out, but keen to hear yours. I am such an optimist. I really do have. to dig down deeply. If you'd asked me. this a few weeks ago, I would have said,

you know, this tariff situation is going. to blow the global economy up if we're. if we're not careful. So, I'm much more. settled about that right now. I'd have to say I am concerned. that there are going to be people caught. out. um by these new technologies and for. whatever reason not willing to adapt. because there going to be huge. opportunities if they do. And so one of the reasons we give away.

our research, you know, I'm very honored. to do a podcast like this is to get that. word out. There is so much information available. You can just go to our site and listen. to our podcast. And if anything inspires. you, go for it because it's going the. opportunities are going to be enormous. When you say you're concerned people. might get caught out? Caught out in.

you know, disrupted industries. I mean, we think the whole transportation. industry is going to be disrupted. Um we. think retail as we know it going to be. disrupted as we are. Retail is in like shops and stuff and. Yes, although if they adapt with more. social personal experiences, I think. that anything physical you'll want to. have a social dynamic associated with. it. But in terms of what I think is. going to happen to retail is we're going.

to have our personal shopping assistants. and they're going to they're going to. anticipate what we want, which I can't. wait. I hate shopping. Uh anticipate. what we want uh or basically flag. something that they know we would like. if we would knew it were available. And. they'll be disintermediating. all of the traditional sources because. they can go anywhere in the world. Um so. just think about almost every sector is.

going to be disrupted. Healthcare is. going to be disrupted enormously, I. think. For the better. For the better, but. those who are wedded to doing things the. old way are probably going to be. disrupted, you know? Yeah, that is my concern as well. And and just how we handle that as a. society. But I think if we can help people. understand. that they have a lot of control over. this.

if they're willing to learn and dream. and use their imaginations. Not everybody is though, as you know. Yes, but they have to do it for their. children at least, right? If we took the. general population in the London and. said, "100 people, how many of you. understand what AI is?" Or "How many of. you use ChatGPT?" We'd have a certain. percentage, maybe I don't know, 50% or. more. If I went to. the countryside Yes. and I stopped a lovely person shopping. at in the local village and said, "Do. you use ChatGPT?".

It'd probably be significantly lower. percentage. They be they they wouldn't. care about that. What is that? Whatever. Um I I wo- wonder about the inequality. of like. education, but just initiative and how. those that really do have a proclivity. to lean in and to experiment and to mess. around and to learn. because maybe there's an incentive. because they work in a city and their. employer is asking them to or be off to. the races with this disruptive. technology. And there's just like a lot. of the rest of society, of middle.

America and the countrysides and those. types of people who. are just not even going to see it. coming. But that's why we're out there. And the. the important word that you used was. initiative because I really think uh you. know, when people hear the word. inequality, uh. they like to blame something, right? There will be no reason for this. I'm. sure someone's going to come back at me. for saying that, but I I'm of course. there are people who who we have to help.

along the way. No question about it. But. for those who are healthy and uh are. listening to this podcast. and are saying. uh you know, I don't I don't know. exactly what she's talking about, but. I'm going to start reading up on some of. these. new ways of doing things and make sure. to at least understand it. I think within that kind of initiative, they'll find it. They just will find it. There's going to be so much opportunity.

It's going to be so exciting. And I. think. again, creativity and you know, especially young people using their. imaginations, you know, they're they're. not held back by any preconceived. notions. So, I ask all the questions I. ask because I'm trying to like solve. little question marks I have in my head. about the future. And it's really. difficult at this time to see around the. corner because so much is changing so. quickly. And there's all of these. converging technologies as you described. like robotics and AI. And then when I.

put robotics and AI together, you're. like, "Fuck.". Do you know what I mean? Cuz I go like. there's like I keep coming back to this. question of like, "What am I going to. do?" And not in You know what's good. about that? You know what's really good. about that? That will motivate you. It does. Of course it does. It's great. It's. great. me to ask people like you the question. 17 times in a row. But it's a real point cuz I run. businesses. We have at our headquarters, which is around the corner, it's about.

25,000 square foot office. We have, you. know, hundreds of people in that. building. And I'm thinking about the. roles that we're hiring for and I'm. we're now looking at them through the. lens of agentic AI, so AI agents. And. And then if I overlay that with robotics. and AI, you know, I'm going, "Oh, there's what. roles. would we need to hire in the future?". Because. theoretically. like can you name a single role in a. media company that would when I'm. talking about in the robotics era that. would really need to be done by a human?

I guess other than one could say. human-to-human sales. would still have some kind of element of. human touch to them. You know though, I. mean, we've learned a lot from the. ancient game of Go. Yeah. So, you've heard about AlphaGo, which was uh. Alphabet, Google. Um. basically devising a program to compete. against the Go champions. Go is much.

more complicated than chess. Yeah, it's. like a game a board game, basically. Right. Uh so, I think the the champion of the. world at the time was a South Korean. And he was sure he was going to beat. this machine. Well, the machine beat beat him. And he was crestfallen. And. then he got his. chutzpah, to use a New York word, back. And. he said, "Wait a minute.

I'm going to start playing against. machines.". And so now. he's playing against machines. His game. is so much better that when he competes. against humans, and those competitions. are the more important ones. Right? When he competes against other. human beings, the machine has kept him. as his champion. And of course, everyone's using the machine. So, we're. all. we're going to artificial intelligence.

But he still can't beat a machine, can. he? He still can't beat the best machine. in the world. No, he can't. And and But. I mean, he can occasionally. But but. people don't want to go see machines. competing against machines. I get that. in because human humans like human error. and they like to be able to relate and. to aspire. But as it relates to the. world of work, the incentive is. productivity. And my. my humanoid robot isn't going to get. sick, and it's going to have a PhD in. everything. So. I don't want to see a human failing at.

their desk. Right. Oh, right, right, right, right, right, right. But then you you're your. robot and your AI is really focused on. the past, right? That's what it's. ingested, It can make predictions there. based on that past. Pattern recognition. how my brain works, right? Like a neural. network. but. that's why we chose the word disruptive. Disruptive means the traditional world. order and patterns therefore that.

you know, the the robots and others will. recognize is going to change. Right? Sorry, what does that mean? Is it So, what when we're doing our research we. have a white sheet of paper. There's no. history for this. Right? And so, we're. doing a lot of original research. So, AI. machines might use our research as that. cuz we put it out there. But it is. think differently to you to a human.

though? In terms of is I thought the. human brain was building, you know, predicting essentially something based. on lots of information. And AI is. basically doing the same thing with. neural networks. It's making a. prediction based on lots of new. information. And therefore, if we get to. AGI, it can create new information. Yes. And and and it will. But I mean, AGI Elon will say it's. two years away. And it does seem, you. know, we're able to generate PhDs and. rocket scientists now in the AI world.

So, he's probably right. But I also. think about this as giving us. superintelligence. So, could ChatGPT do. what we've done? Maybe, I don't know. Actually, it's a. very interesting exercise. I'm going to. ask our team to do that before I put it. out. Uh to do to do a model, a SpaceX. model, financial model, income. statement, balance sheet, cash flow. statement between now and 2050 when we.

have in 20 in the 2040s, Elon expects, if not sooner, to colonize Mars. Uh I'll. see what kind of model it comes back. with. In terms of how much In terms of. how correct it is and what it uses to. get there. Family man. Mhm. SpaceX. A financial model. Our income statement. Okay. Income statement. ask the really smart model, SD3.

Make a. SpaceX You're an investor in SpaceX? Yes, in the private fund, yes. So am I. Huh. Make a SpaceX. income statement. Income statement based on Uh. Elon's predictions? Yes. Based on Elon's. predictions. Yeah. This will be very interesting. Now until 2050. Mhm. Okay, I'll put that on the screen so.

everybody can watch. And this is essentially going to look at. everything he said about going to Mars. and colonizing Mars. and then tell you how valuable that. company's going to be Yes. I'm not sure if you asked the question. that way. Did you. Did you say I just said make a SpaceX. income statement based on Elon's. predictions from now until 2050 and then. I can ask it what the market cap would. be. I wonder how long it's going to think. It's thinking for a while. Yeah, it's going to think a long time, I. have a feeling. And then it's going to. take you through and I think uh you.

know, it was interesting, DeepSeek. uh the breakthrough it had. on the reasoning side was it kept asking. questions so it could get to the right. answer faster. Mhm. I think they're all. adopting it now cuz cuz DeepSeek is open. source. Yeah. And they didn't need to. spend much as much money on the training. side because they. That's what they said. They said $6. million trained on a high-end. workstation and that that of course. caused a trillion dollars worth of.

damage in the US market with Nvidia, one. of the biggest. casualties because people said, "Well, wait a minute. We're doing these data centers. You mean we don't need all those big. data center servers to to do this work? We could do a high-end workstation for. $6 million?" The answer is the. pre-training. for that model was done on a 50,000 GPU. cluster that the hedge fund had. Mhm.

And the last step of the large language. model was the $6 million step. Okay, it's made its mind up now. Oh. So, it says Starlink revenue in 2050. would be 250 billion. Mhm. It says. launch and Starship revenue would be 120. billion. So, the total revenue would be. 370 billion. Cost of goods sold would be 172 billion.

Gross profit therefore would be 200. billion. Operating expenses 37 billion. Operating income would be 161 billion. After tax, so the net income would be. 128. billion. All right. And I have to I to to be honest, I. haven't seen the last stage of this. model. We haven't That'd be very. interesting. I'd love to get a a copy of. that if you could send it to me. Can you. Yeah. 100% I'll send it I'll email it to you. straight after. You know, when I asked. ChatGPT earlier, I said, "Who is the.

number one woman in the world in. investing?" It repeatedly said your. name. Mhm. So, that's a pretty. remarkable thing to have accomplished, especially in a male-dominated industry. where there isn't many women that manage. to rise to the top of that industry. So, what what is it about you in. hindsight? You know, it's difficult to. be objective about oneself. But what is. it about you that meant that you were. successful in a male-dominated industry, in an industry that's incredibly.

difficult to be successful in? My advice to all young people getting. into their first job especially, but. even later jobs, is. my mission when I started was to make my. boss look brilliant. Now, why do I why. do I say that? It's much more applicable. today and possible today than it was. back when there were no computers and no. cell phones, which is when I started, right? But what did I do? My boss wanted to.

communicate, he was an economist, wanted. to communicate in charts that you know, he couldn't find. So, I. figured out a way. I went to our. time-sharing system. That's all you could do back then. Time-sharing is an ancient mainframe. technology. And I figured out a way to. make these charts and delight him. And. and and I loved doing it and I loved.

learning. I loved learning about. technology. I learned tech and about. economics through him. So, that was the first thing. And then. Why is it important to make your boss. look good? Well, I think because if you do make him. look good, um first of all, you should. you owe him a debt of. of gratitude if he turns around and. gives you more growth opportunities. So, but if he or she doesn't, then you know.

it's time to go to the next place where. you make that next boss look brilliant. and maybe you have the growth. trajectory. I had bosses who they they. loved the fact that I loved what I was. doing, that I had such high conviction. in what I was doing. And I I'm going to. give Art Laffer a lot of credit for. that. When I walked into the financial. world, I knew more about economics than most of. the people in the room.

And that was a great source of. confidence, a great source of. confidence. And when I was leaving that firm, uh someone said my my boss at the time. said, I was moving from LA to New York. My my boss said, "You've only been doing this for 3. years. You're not ready to become their. economist." And. um. and I just thought I was ready. And more. important, the company to which I was. going thought I was ready. And as I was.

leaving, um both he and and others said, "Remember, you know more about economics. than anyone else in the room. You'll So, take that with you." And I did. And I. think that sense of confidence. and understanding the way the world. works from a macroeconomic point of view. was critically important. Now, when I. got to New York, I could not even speak Art Laffer. Laffer's name because the Laffer curve. says, "If you cut tax rates that are too.

high, you will get more revenue.". And what had happened is Ronald Reagan. had cut tax rates. But Paul Volcker at the Fed was trying. to starve the economy of inflation. So, we were in back-to-back recessions and. no, the government wasn't getting more. revenue. So, Art Laffer was, you know, on I couldn't. say anything, but you know, that was. fine. I knew he was going to be right. and we were right. That was the story of.

the '80s and '90s. And that's why uh. Jennison Associates and the Chief. Investment Officer there, uh Sig. Segalas, um gave me an opportunity to get into. equity research. I wanted to grow. I. loved the stock market and he loved my. conviction and so he started me on. cyclical companies, which of course I. would know a lot about. But, Jennison was primarily a tech-oriented.

firm and of course, knowing that, I. wanted to delight the boss. I wanted to. get into the technologies and I made it. my business to know as much about them. and and I was the only one willing to uh. research stocks outside the US. Think. about that now. Art Laffer? Arthur Laffer? Yes. He wrote this. letter. Oh, he did? He wrote this letter. Describing you. Oh, to you? To me. Oh.

He said there was this young lady named. Cathy Duddy, later Cathy Wood, whose face was the map of Ireland and. whose ambition was over the moon. I was. a tough teacher and grader and Cathy's. first steps were shaky, but in short. order she rose to the occasion and aced. the course. Impressed as I was, and. believe me, I was very impressed, I. helped Cathy land her first job at. Capital Group in LA and from that point. in time it was game on. I followed her. career closely after Capital Group, then. on to Tupelo and her final job as an.

employee at at at Alliance. Alliance Bernstein. As you may imagine, she was the star investor at each stage. In 2014, Cathy took a giant. entrepreneurial leap in the founding and. funding of ARK Invest. And the letter goes on. to say she's a mega success and God. bless her. She never has forgotten her. now aged professor. Well, that was very nice of him. Um. uh.

so, he he has been so important to my. career. Now, I'm going to get a little. weepy, but um. I gave him 1% of my company when I. started it. And uh. so, he deserved it. He deserved it. because he gave me a big big break. He. believed in me first. Why does that make you emotional? I don't know. We have We've gone through. our life together and what's so. interesting now is. um. it's.

so interesting and and fun is. Bitcoin has rejuvenated. Art. He's 85 years old or 84. and. I'm seeing his excitement and he wants. to spread the word around the world and. now we're going into stablecoins. together. And. he just started an account on X. He has. a flip phone. He doesn't do email and yet he has just.

started an account on X and so we now. have this technology relationship. because he wasn't going to technology, but he knows he's seen like. ARK altogether, we have 3.3 million. followers and he's seen the reach that X. has and he's also, I think the other. thing and I'm I'm haven't answered your. question. It was just very nice of him. to do that, you know, and I see it's a. typed one page and very sweet. We have a.

closing tradition on this podcast where. the last guest leaves a question for the. next guest not knowing who they're. leaving it for. And the question left. for you is. Hm? Great question for you. What is the. craziest idea. you ever had that turned out to be. right? Well, there are just a a few One thing. that it's it's not that crazy, but it. just gives you a sense of how. not obvious in the early days of ARK.

I remember saying. I remember saying. well, you know, autonomous vehicles are robots. And I was in a research meeting and. everyone said, "No, they're not.". And of course they are. You know, it's a. crazy idea, but and there was something. I mean there. some things I'll say. and the reason that's important from our. point of view is this convergence idea. Robotics, AI, energy storage. So, wait a.

minute, this is a very big idea. So, it. seemed it seemed like no, it's like I. think it is and and so it was like we. were we were, you know, feeling our way. in the dark cuz that was 2014 and. nobody was really talking about them. And there's something like that very. recently. Oh, we were talking it's not a. crazy idea. It's it's just we're trying. to solve problems. Um. someone uh. when as we were going on and on at our.

brainstorm on Friday about humanoid. robots, uh someone he he's he's our um. what do we call him? What do you call. curmudgeon? Uh no, good way. In a good. way. I don't even know what curmudgeon means. Curmudgeon means. contrarian. curmudgeon like. yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not going to. work, you know. Um. he humanoid robots. He said he said, "I. don't think that's going to be a thing.". He said, "We really need robots that are.

going to be able to carry a lot more in. terms of weight than those things will. on those stilts." And in my mind kind of. flashed. um. transformer robots. They'd have legs and. all of that. You'd be able to fold them. up so they look like a tamp tank. Mhm. And so that's what I said on uh I know. this doesn't sound so crazy to you, but. I don't. I'm just imagining the future, going to. Disneyland when I'm 11 years old. We had.

just come over. uh from Ireland and seeing someone. holding a phone on the Carousel of. Progress and. you know, saying, "I'm going to have one. of those." Um it sounded crazy at the. time and I felt a little crazy, but. always So, you think we can have. transformer robots? Yeah. So, the robot. that cleans my house can transform and. maybe become. everybody laughed at me. But, I think. that's going to happen.

Another one was and this was on These. are just little ideas in in terms of how. things hit my brain, but. uh someone was talking about Boring, which is another one of Elon's. companies, the underground. transportation. Big tunnels and stuff. Yeah. I forget what someone said in. a post on X, but I my answer was. Mars. Obviously. And people were laughing at.

that. And and then as they were talking. about it, they're saying, "Of course. they're going to put that transportation. system underground. We learned why you. shouldn't have it on top of the ground. from Earth." So, just a little things. catch me in a funny way. It's not the. craziest. They're just like, "Oh, maybe. that is the way things are going to. work." I wonder if if Elon dies before. we get to Mars or if he just dies in the. next 10 years from anything, from any. cause, how much of an impact that will have on. our rate of progress. generally with space and electric.

vehicles and humanoid robots? Could be. quite profound. He is getting us so far along that, you. know, there's just going to be a runway. he's created for years and years. Think. about it, Mars 2040, 50, you know. Cathy, thank you. Thank you for doing. what you do and um. that's a a sort of multifaceted point of. gratitude because you do so much. Um you. do so much in educating all of us in. terms of innovation, investing and what.

the future looks like, but also from. your funds perspective and your. company's perspective, you do so much in. open-sourcing and putting the research. and the work that you guys do out into. the world when you don't necessarily. have to. But, uh as I've heard you say, it's a great benefit both to the world, but also so you do it because it also. brings people to your fund, right? And. it certainly did for me. That's how I. came across you many, many years ago. when I had was reading some research. with my brother um around investing in. the future and innovation and. understanding your thesis around all of. those things, but also from the.

education side, you're distilling this. complex research into simple um. language and information that the next. generation can understand so that this. moment of transition doesn't catch them. off guard and that's an incredible. thing. But I but I have to say as well, you're such an inspiration for the very. fact that you have achieved what you've. achieved in your life. It's it's exceed. it's extremely rare for someone and I I. don't always like to talk about gender. or race or these those kinds of things, but it's a point of it's a particular. point a pertinent point in this case. because you have succeeded in a very.

male-dominated industry. And I think. just your presence, your existence alone. is going to inspire lots of women um and. men, people like me, um to pursue. finance and investing as a career. Oh. So, thank you so much for doing what you. do and thank you for being who you are. It's incredibly important and you've. demystified so many things for me over. the years even though we've never met um. but watching your videos and reading the. research that you guys put out. So, I'm. going to link all of that below. Link to. your websites and your funds and all. those things so people can learn more. But yeah, thank you. Thank you, Steven.

Thank you for doing what you do and and. it's been an honor and a privilege and I. know you have an incredible audience. So, you've built a fantastic business. here and I have a feeling uh. that this new world that that you're. fearing is going to be very good to you. I hope so. Yes. Thank you. The hardest conversations are often the. ones we avoid. But what if you had the. right question to start them with? Every. single guest on the Diary of a CEO has.

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