How To Take Full Control Of Your Mind: Prof. Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox | E96

My work now is helping people to. optimize performance, get a good. relationship with them self, finding a. peace, happiness, confidence. Professor. Steve Peters, he's a world-leading. psychiatrist, arguably one of the most. famous, renowned, and important of our. time. You will come out the other side much. better. People do recover from broken. relationships. People don't know what. the next relationship will be. Not. everybody is the same. What tends to happen is people either. don't recognize they're getting stressed. and it becomes chronic and they've got. these behaviors which are damaging to.

them as people think stress is where we. wringing our hands and panicking and. that's not really true. Stress comes in. all different forms and often isn't. recognized. Even for people in a much more serious. situation where they become suicidal, you can tell them with honesty there is. always a future and things do change and. feelings do move. And we have to accept. that reality. We cannot know everything. about the person we're with and if our. chimp switch are panicky a bit and want. guarantees and what then we we're going. down the wrong path and we have to tell.

our chimp you can't do this. [Music]. Professor Steve Peters, he's a. world-leading psychiatrist, arguably one. of the most famous, renowned, and. important of our time. He's also a. doctor and a hugely successful author. Some of you, most of you, will know him. from his best-selling book, The Chimp. Paradox, which has sold millions of. copies worldwide and that's a book that. actually saved the lives of some people.

very close to me. He's worked with. elite-level athletes including Steven. Gerrard and the England football team. and Ronnie O'Sullivan, gold medal. Olympians like Sir Chris Hoy and. Victoria Pendleton, as well as business. leaders and CEOs and he helps them. overcome what he calls mental. dysfunction. He's helped them optimize. for performance and he's really helped. them get out of their own way. And in. many respects in life, we're all in our. own way. Steve's invented this. groundbreaking concept called the chimp. model and it focuses on how there's.

these kind of three parts to our brain. The first part is called the chimp, which is our sort of desire to be. impulsive and irrational and emotional. and short-term. The second part is what. he calls the human and you'll hear him. talk about this, which is logical and. rational and thinks in terms of facts. and thinks things through in the long. term. And the third part is what he. calls the computer, which is our set of. core values and beliefs. Steve's work. focuses on how we can manage and control. the interaction between these three.

parts of our brain and we all have these. three compartments within our brains. And if you can understand them, if you. can understand these three elements, it. gives you greater power to utilize them. to be happy, successful, however you. define it, and to live a much more. fulfilled life. Man, this episode gave me so many. personal epiphanies, so many sort of. penny drop moments, and so many personal. realizations. It's one of the podcasts. that I I I know I'll reflect on going.

forward and I know for sure will change. my life forever. So this is one where I. implore you to listen to the entire. conversation cuz I think it will change. your life, too. So without further ado, sorry, that was. a very long intro. I'm Steven Bartlett. and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope. nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. [Music]. Professor Steve Peters, thank you for. for joining me today. I've been a big.

fan of your work as has a lot of people. close to me in my life for a long, long. period of time. Where I wanted to start with you is with. with a question, which is. how do you define yourself. professionally? And I've read, you know, I've read about the diverse amount of. work you've done across multiple sectors. with sports stars, with leaders, with. with the NHS, with the the fire service, with. you know, broad spectrum of people. But. what is the sort of basis of your work. and how do you define what you do?

Okay, well, thanks for inviting me. Um. Coming from medical background, I define. myself as a doctor who is specialized in. the mental health. area of medicine. Uh and then moved a little bit sideways. into just mentoring and helping people. to gain understanding and insights into. the way that their mind functions. And then applying that into whatever. they take me. So effectively, I'm an. educator. um with a medical basis. But I still. have patients I would treat, but the. generally my work now is helping people.

to optimize performance or get a good. relationship with them self, um finding a peace, the kind of things. people want, happiness, confidence, or. even things like high-performing teams. So a vast spectrum, but the the basis of. all of this is do you understand what's. going on inside your head? Do you. understand yourself? And what's the cuz. some people are easily confused between. psychiatry and psychology. What's the. distinction as you see it? Well, the. distinction is that psychologists are. expert in usually a specific area within.

psychology. So educational psychologists. would look at how we educate children. and and adults and how they learn best, whereas you might get a clinical. psychologist or work with someone who's. got maybe depressive illness and look at. the cognitive aspects of that, the way. we think and behave. Um a. psychiatrist is a medical doctor, so we. tend to treat mental illness as opposed. to dysfunction. Mhm. So mental illness. is where we know that the in simplistic. terms, the brain isn't functioning well.

Something is going wrong. Often it's. transmitter systems. So we treat them. Um but when we might find as a. psychiatrist that it's dysfunction, so. then we would do overlap work with what. psychologists would do. Right, got you. Um you your book, The Chimp Paradox, really focused on psychological. dysfunction. Yes. Um and was that born. out of your that was born out of your. work in psychiatry? Yes, I mean, when I was in the NHS as a. consultant for many years, um people. come to the door who had mental illness, which then we would treat and and.

support, help them get them on their. feet. Um but also a significant number. of people came through the door who. didn't need treatment per se. They did. They had The mind was fully functional. and operating well. They didn't know how. to operate it. So because they didn't. operate well with the mind, it was. creating a lot of emotional distress. And so they would present as if it were. an illness, but in my my book, it wasn't. an illness. So I worked with that. dysfunction and out of that work was. born the neuroscience basis of the the.

chimp model to say, "Look, let's have a. look at the brain and see what is the. brain actually doing and how did it. develop and how can we apply that to you. today?". I want to go down these two paths. I. want to go down the the mental health. path and then also the mental. dysfunction path. So if we start with. the mental health path, um there's. there's this kind of prevailing. narrative in culture at the moment that. mental health disorders are on the. increase and that people are getting. more and more depressed and more and. more anxious. Um in your view, is that.

is that accurate? This is a complex topic. Uh the answer. would be that we're more aware of it, so. it's probably reported more, but. um mental illness per se. will can sometimes be born out of mental. dysfunction. So if we get stressed in. our work say and we don't manage it well. or in relationships and we don't manage. that well, then we know that given time. for many individuals, the. neurotransmitters in the brain start to. malfunction. Right. So we can create.

effectively an illness by not managing. the mind well. Alternatively, it can. spontaneously malfunction. So people can. have a great life, look after them self, yet still suddenly go into a clinical. depression because the system has. failed, much like say a thyroid might. fail. Haven't done anything wrong, it's. just the system has failed. And is the the the the changing world we. live in, the more sort of digitalized. world where I don't know our lives are. being I guess more optimized for I guess. productivity and um. optimized against things like exercise.

for example. You know, I can order my. lunch by clicking a button now and I can. meet dates just by swiping on my phone. Um is it your belief that that changed. world, the a more digital world, the. more social media-centric world, the. world we live in today, is more. conducive with mental illness? I think again I have to talk in broad. terms. Everybody's unique, which means. that somebody will find that really. advantageous to just press a button and. the lunch arrives and they don't need. that people interaction. We're all on a.

spectrum. The vast majority of us are. built to interact. We are gregarious by. nature and we like people around us and. we like to have relationships. So. clearly, if somebody's isolated in an. office or working from home, then they. will miss the aspects of they don't. actually compensate in some way which. satisfies their need for this. interaction, then it's likely they will. start to become distressed. So in that. sense, I think because most of us are. gregarious and we're more and more. isolated, uh if we don't make steps to.

change that round, people will find they. get more stressed and more anxiety will. appear and more clinical depression may. appear. Yeah, I asked that question just cuz I'm. I'm I'm I'm unsure as you said said at. the start of your answer whether it's. just because of awareness has increased. around mental illness or if um the world. we live in now is make is not meeting us. I guess our fundamental human needs. I. think it's a bit of everything and I. think therefore researchers will look at. the idea that for example, social media. has a massive input, which it wasn't.

there. So we've got back 20 years and. there wasn't social media as such. And. now it's become very prominent in many. people's lives and we know that most of. us don't respond well to criticism and. and if it's public criticism, then we. really don't respond well. So that can. be an extremely destructive force on. people. However, if people use social media. appropriately and and are able to block. out any of these negative comments that. people make, then they'll probably find. it an advantageous thing to actually. communicate with friends and family. So.

again, it's it's not so much what's. happening in society, it's how we. interact with it and learn what works. for us as individuals. So it's stopping. and getting time to think, what are my. needs? And a lot of people don't really. know that. You have to discover them. And then how do I put them in place that. work for me? And on that point of needs as it relates. to sort of mental. good mental health, um are you able to. point out fundamental things that we all. need to have or things that are most.

conducive to generally broadly with good. mental health? Yeah, so if you came to me and you said. right, can we just do a like a a bit of. a psychological profile? Let me have a. look at my life and see how I'm going, then. often people are not what we call great. historians. They don't give me. information. I've got to sort of pull. the information out with the appropriate. questions. And the areas yes, I would touch on. So. first of all, I would certainly look at. the relationship you have with yourself. What's your own self-image, self-worth, self-confidence. I would like to see.

where you stand in those areas. Cuz we. start with you. If if someone's in a. good place, then it's likely they'll. cope with the world. But if someone's. not in a good place with themself and. within themselves, then it's unlikely. they'll cope with the world because your. starting point is not good. And when I've done that, then we look at. things like relationships. So you want. to see what kind of relationships do you. particularly need or want at this point. in your life? And what kind of. relationships have you got? And are you. maximizing them? Are they dysfunctional?

You know, is it to do with the. communication between you? We look at. communication. But apart from that, I'll I'll go to. fundamental drives. You know, do you recognize the drives. you have? And the obvious ones are. eating drives, the drive for sex, for security, for. territory. We'll look at how you apply. those because these are drives that all. of us have to greater or less extent. But sometimes it's hidden drives. So one of the ones is a purpose. Recognition. You know, a feeling of value.

in what you do or who you are. So these. are drives we all have, but often they. get neglected because people don't. recognize them. And once you actually. point them out and you say, well, how. are you going to fulfill these? Then we. can work on what works for you. So I. don't tell people. I don't have like a. recipe book. I I can't do that. I know. that people can. I can't. What I like to. do is work with you as a team. And you. say to me, this is what my needs are. I. challenge that to try and make sure it's. really clear. And then we look at what you think will.

work for you. Maybe I'll come up with. ideas and suggestions. I'll challenge. beliefs you've got. And then we work together to see what. are your outcome objectives. What do you. want to achieve in the next 3 months, 6. months, 12 months? And look at what's realistic. So it's. it's quite a detailed. almost like an MOT on the person's mind. Make sure everything's up and. functioning. Two things I was super intrigued there. by is that the idea of self-image and. what that really really means. Cuz I've heard the term of, you know, self-image. I guess that's how you see.

yourself. Yeah. Um insecurities and all? Or is. insecurities uh. impact how you see yourself? Well, this. is where. 20-something years ago now, in the early '90s, it struck me as a. younger doctor that. um. the mind isn't one entity working. So. when I ask people about self-image, I'm. now going to split the mind a bit and. say, what is the self-image that you. feel you would like to have and that you. are aiming to to present to the world?

And what's the genetic self-image that. your mind is giving you and the mind. interpreting? Hence I started saying you. have this circuitry which is rational. and logical looking at the facts. And. you have a circuitry which is. emotionally based. So it's not logic and. emotion. It's logically based with. emotion and it's emotion based with. logic. And we don't control that. So if I try. and That's detail. I'd have to listen to. that one again. Is What I'm saying is we have control. over the the circuitry which I call the.

human circuits. And your self-image then. might be that I'm a compassionate guy, that I'm a trustworthy person, that I. always give 100%. This is what your. self-image could be when I discuss with. you and your circuits are responding. However, if you've moved the blood supply and. oxygen uptake into what I'm calling the. chimp circuits, circuits which are quite. primitive but think, you don't have any. control over that. So they will generate. thinking.

And the chimp circuits may give a very. different answer. Because they're much more likely to be. emotional and say how you feel about. yourself rather than reality. So the feeling could be the reality, but. it's it's likely not to be. So we get two images from two different. circuits. And what is informing the. chimp? Right, so the chimp, when it starts off. in life, this is getting heavy. neuroscience. As we develop in the. fetus, the the chimp circuitry, which is. the orbitofrontal cortex, heads it up. This is a part of our brain just above.

our eyes, starts to think, but it thinks. in an emotional way. So it it reacts to. things. It doesn't think ahead with. consequence. It reacts impulsively and. it relies on the center of the brain, the rest of the limbic system. It's part. of the limbic. to actually store this our experiences. memory. So for example, if a child gets told off. at the age of two, it's likely be to be. in chimp circuitry. Then if it wants to. avoid being told off again, it will. conceal what it does.

So if it's eaten a chocolate biscuit, it'll just. try not get caught. Okay, because it's. impulse will to be eat the chocolate. biscuit, but then it will learn, but if. you do, you can get caught, you get told. off. So therefore conceal being caught. So this is impulsive and not thinking. long-term consequences or values or. because this circuitry just does. impulsive how can I get what I want? And get away with it with the least. emotion or painful emotion. Whereas what happens when we're around. two is a secondary system, the human.

circuits start to develop. So these run. from the top of our head, almost like a. vertical one down into the center of the. brain. And this part, the dorsolateral. prefrontal cortex, we have control of. This is our active thinking conscious. awareness of things like future time. So. we look at consequence. If I steal the. biscuit, what will happen? Is there an. alternative? And now our values start to come into. play. It's not the right thing to do. Whereas the chimp brain doesn't work. with values.

It has values, but they're not our. values. So we then start having this battle in. our heads. But that circuitry doesn't come in till. we're 2 years old approximately. So. that's why we don't have memory before. two because it's not actually. functioning. And it stores factual. memory rather than emotional memory. So when you say what informs the chimp, the chimp has got all this intuition. And intuition is previous experience of. what happens. So as it's going to take the chocolate. biscuit, the chimp's brain will remind.

it, this may not be a good thing. It's. pleasurable, but it may not be good. So. that generally the child now feels on. edge. They know what they want to do, but they're on edge and they don't know. why they're on edge. until after think it through and then. the chimp will remind them, you're. getting this feeling because you could. get caught. So the way that system works, it gives. you a feeling. You interpret the feeling and then you. make a decision. But it's based on feelings. What was the prehistoric. use case for the chimp? Well, the chimp.

brain, I mean, I I used that because. when I looked like 30 years ago, I. looked at the human brain and then. compared it to the hominids and spoke to. specialists in the hominid group who. were saying that the chimpanzee's brain. is is almost the same as ours in these. particular circuits. So that's why we. find them entertaining because they. demonstrate what we do. Yeah. You know, and and they will be devious and they. will be quite violent. They're also. compassionate, but they're all impulsive. and not thought through well. And when I looked at that with the other.

great apes, so the orangutan, the. bonobo, the gorilla, they didn't. actually have the same circuitry as the. chimp. And I couldn't wait for the research, so. I jumped the gun a bit and called it the. chimp paradox because in the last two, three years, it's been published now to. show that the chimp brain and our brain. is closer than we thought. In the way that we think with that. particular circuitry. So that's why I picked the chimp, but. it's seen in all animals and it's it's a. defense mechanism to protect you. So obviously eating the biscuits a good. survival mechanism. The fact you might.

get caught is incidental. You hope you. don't, but you have to eat. So these. circuits are based to help us to. survive, so they give us all our drives, but they also give us experience of what. happens when we act in a certain way. And if it doesn't work, we change our. reaction. Right. And you said drives there, that was the. second point that I was intrigued by is. how how one goes about understanding. their drives. I think. um when I in in the world we live in, especially you know, the social media. world, it feels like our drives and our.

values are somewhat um sometimes handed. to us and we don't even know that. something isn't our true sort of. intrinsic driver or values. But because. of I don't know, a desire to be to fit. in or to be to gain approval from. people, we take it up as a value of our. own or or we say, if we're asked, that. that's something that drives us, but. it's not. So we might say we want to be. we want to land a gig or we want to be a. public speaker or whatever, but really. probably underpinning that is our desire.

to be to get recognition and to to be. loved, I don't know. Okay. But how do. you go about understanding what your. true drivers are in life and not the. things that you say just to. Yeah, this is where when I looked at. this, as I say, a long time back, you. start to see that if you ask people, which is what I I. to put away everything and just get a. blank piece of paper. That's where I. start. My starting point is always write. down the perfect person you want to be. Because this now excludes any of the.

drives and a lot of what you're talking. about is actually behaviors attached to. drives. They're not true drives. Drives. are things like the need to eat, the. need to have security. Uh these are drives. The need to be a. parent. And we have these compulsive. driving forces within us that get us out. of our seat and make us find something. Uh whereas getting approval from people. is actually based in the orbital frontal. cortex, the chimp again, where it's. terrified of being excluded from the. troop. So a chimpanzee in the wild must.

be part of a troop, otherwise the. leopard's waiting. Yeah. So lots of eyes. protect you. So the chimpanzee has an. inbuilt need to be with other chimps. And in order to do that, it must prove. to the other chimps that it's worthy. Mhm. Cuz if it isn't, they could exclude. it, which would be death. So we we carry. that drive still. We need to be. approved. The problem is uh the. chimpanzee's got it right, we've got it. wrong. The chimpanzee recognizes it any. only wants approval from its immediate. troop. Whereas we actually try and get. approval from the whole world. You know, so one person on social media.

tells the world they did not like us and. we can potentially fall apart instead of. saying actually they're not in my troop, so it's not important. Mhm. So it's. important this is an example of how. giving insights people can start. recognizing actually find your own. troop. Cuz that's what you need to focus. on, not the rest of the world. You'll. never please them. Mhm. You know, they're not part of that. So. drives you have to look at and we have. I've gone through the list of this. And. then we say to you for example, how. strong is your troop drive? We all have. one, that's the need to belong to a.

group of people or maybe just to one. person. But generally we like to have a number. of people around us. So it's looking and. saying how strong is that drive and are. you fulfilling fulfilling it correctly? And and also when you've got your what. I'm calling the troop of people around. you, are you actually looking after the. troop and maintaining it and using it. appropriately? Mhm. Makes a lot of sense. I've sat here with. a lot of guests and some of them have. tens of millions of subscribers and. followers online and they still uh.

remarkably they still um pretty much I'd. say 95% of occasions. can have their day ruined by one comment. on a YouTube video on Instagram per post. and it does it does like. it does so blow my mind a little bit. that. um. you can have such a big tribe and still. one Yeah, I get that. But if you think. that um we society, we're told basically. to respect everyone, which is correct. from our human brain. Our chimps are. actually saying just close in and get.

the people around you that matter. And please them and look at their. approval. And that's what our friends. do. They'll be critical, but it's it's. very constructive and done with love. So. we accept criticism from friends. We. know they're on side. But if you start. expanding that inappropriately to the. whole world, then you're going to. stretch your chimp to pieces. Because. what you're saying is I think it's. really important that that person. approves of me as well. So again, I look. at the reality of life and say, let's. just get in your factual memory some.

real truths of life. And people may. disagree, but I I ask them what do you. believe? Cuz truths are relative to us. So one of the things we know is and I'm. I'm give statistic as a loose statistic. 80% of people approve of us. 20% love us. 60% just approve. And 20% are just not pleasant people. And if we go around believing that we're. really going to make them into pleasant. people or we're really going to. please them, you're going to lose. So. you have to step back and get that fact.

And then you don't worry if 20% of the. people don't like you or make critical. remarks. You just dismiss it and look at. the 20% who do love you, who are going. to give you constructive criticism. And respect you. So again, it's that. learning that your drive is out of. control. You're allowing your drive for the troop. to extend to the world and that's not. appropriate. It never was meant to do. that. So it's an inappropriate use of. this primitive drive we have. So tell me through that that process. then. So I get a blank piece of paper. I.

write down who I want to be. Yeah. Um I'd say things like I want to. be and correct me where I'm. That's okay. I'm wrong here, okay? Cuz I. You won't be wrong. But if I say I want to be um I want to. achieve great things, is that a drive? No, that's not a drive. That's something. you hope for. Yeah, okay. So we get the terminology right because. if you hope for that but accept it may. not happen, that you know you're working. with the human circuit, which is logical. and rational. So we hope to get like I. work with elite athletes, which is a. privilege. And they hope to get say an.

Olympic medal. And they hope for that. They accept they. may not get this. Even if you're on form. on the day, somebody may be better or. you may make an error. So as long as you. have that, then it shouldn't be. stressing you. Okay. It would be okay. But if you move into saying I have to. get an Olympic medal, we're now moving. into the chimp circuits. Yeah. Cuz. that's not true. Yeah, you don't have. to. You know, you don't have to. You. know? But if somebody absolutely says to. me, you don't get it. If I don't get. that, then life's not worth living. I'm not going to argue. What I'm saying.

is that's a choice you're making and you. must also accept the consequence. So I I can't put I can't change that. So so when you start your list, what I'm. really asking you for is you What are. your character traits? Mhm. So so discipline. Yeah, I mean again, I. would test the waters cuz I don't know. what you're going to say here. You're in. the spotlight. I I'll just do a quick. one for you just to say Do you Would you. like to be a really nice good person or. would you like to be successful? You can. only be one of them, which would you. prefer? Um a really nice good person.

I know where I stand with you now. So we. have to now make sure that you. understand that's the prime reason that. we're going to do the work is to get you. to be the person that you want to be. This is the good news. Mhm. If you write. on the piece of paper the perfect person. you want to be. So give me some more. character traits. Traits. All the things. that come to mind are the impact I want. to have on those that encounter me. So Right. So you you you want to be. inspirational. Yeah. Yeah, I I guess. that is but but also just like um.

empathetic and compassionate. Okay, brilliant. You want to be an empathic guy, a. compassionate guy, inspirational. You're. probably going to add if we go through. this and have time, honesty, integrity, trustworthy, you know, respectful. You. When you've done all this, this is. really crucial and it is lightbulb. moments. If you think about this, that if you had. control of that part of your brain, which you have, and there was no. interference from the rest of the brain, then that's exactly how you would be in. life. True. That is you. So what I'm.

saying is the reality is fantastic. That. is you. You It's not who you hope to be, it is you. It's not a myth. It's neuroscience. It's. you. What we're now saying is that. doesn't present to the world because now. your chimp and the computer system, the. backup to both human and chimp, now. impose. all the things and so the world might. see something different. So you said to. me I want to be compassionate. And I walk in and say, I've had a really. long journey today. All went wrong. And. you're busy and you just get irritated.

and say, for goodness sake, stop. moaning. And then afterwards you think, well, that wasn't very compassionate. So I'm. not compassionate. But that's that's. misunderstanding the neuroscience. You. were always compassionate because your. intention was always to say, sorry Steve. that you've had a rough journey. You know, because obviously it's. important or otherwise I wouldn't be. telling you. I mean you still might want. to say just stop moaning after a while, but it's done nicely. But what happened. is your chimp is saying, I don't need to. deal with this. It's doing my head in. So I'll just have a go and that will. stop him. And there you see this.

immediate reaction without thought of. consequence. So then our rapport fails a bit cuz I. think, pooh, not nice guy this. But actually, when I understand the. science, I think he's probably a nice. guy. His chimp wasn't very good there. Yeah. That's very different to you going. away at the end of the day thinking, what's wrong with me? Why was I lacking. in compassion? The answer was get the. neuroscience right. You've never moved. position. You're always a compassionate. guy who's trustworthy and honest and so. on. Your chimp has interfered.

Now this is very critical. I expand on. two points here. Cuz the listeners are. going to go up. Hang on. If this is not an excuse model. 100% I'm tough on people. It's not an excuse model. You're 100%. responsible for managing the chimp. So. you need an apology. So when you know the chimp's been a bit. brisk or rude, you're going to stop and. say, I apologize. You are responsible. So I'm not saying blame everything on. your chimp. I'm not saying that. And the second point is you gave me an.

answer there by saying I want to be this. compassionate guy. And people say surely. everyone writes the same list. Absolutely not. In the '90s when I. started to really pull this together and. was looking at the neuroscience. Clearly as you probably know, I worked. in the field of forensics. And if you. take a typical person, so we'll take. who's typical person and we say, what. would you give? You gave me the right. list. Peaceful, calm, you'll go through. integrity, honesty, compassion. That is. really common on the list. However,

when you get to the psychopath, they wouldn't put these. I When I asked. them, they did not put honesty. They did. not put compassion. They were not. relevant. They had a very different list of who. they would ideally like to be. And it wasn't pleasant. It was all about power. It was all about. ego. These are what are in critical This what. I'm going to be. So actually the human. in that person is not the good guy. I used to say it's often the chimp in. them that's the nice guy. The actual.

human's not so nice at all. So it isn't. a good guy, bad guy. That is not at all. what the model is. It's saying you we. all have these systems. Let's find out. who we are, what kind of chimp we've got. cuz they're spread in characteristic, and then what have we got in our. computer? I know this is really heavy going. No, not. I hope this. No, it makes perfect sense. It's my. brain is spiraling off into loads of. different examples where that that is. true. And the one of the first ones that. came to mind was about like leadership. And in the in the the business world,

and I was thinking about the likes of. Steve Jobs. And you hear about these. leaders that are maybe they appear to be. led more by their chimp. Because they are incredibly short all. the time. They are. they seem to be incredibly emotional. However, when you reflect on what. they've achieved in their careers, they. also like even you know Sir Alex. Ferguson's that maybe an interesting. example. They appear to be. either using the chimp as a as a. intentionally or out of control.

Yeah, I mean again, there's nothing wrong with the chimp. People said to me oh you you paint this. picture of this like terrible being in. our heads. And I've never said this. And. when I wrote the chimp paradox, it's in. the title. I said it's your best friend. You know, my chimp is my best friend. That doesn't. mean I always agree with him. I know. I've said to people I see him as this. inept best friend who doesn't do the. best things for me at times, but he. means well. So I know this part of my. brain is 100% on side. It just operates. in a way that maybe I don't agree with.

at times. But it does I learn to communicate with. it so that I can get it on side and. harness its power. So the chimp is the. part of brain that gives a sense of. humor. The human doesn't possess that. It's the chimp that recognizes anomalies. and makes us laugh. It's the chimp that has intuition. We. haven't got that. The chimp reads body. language. We haven't got that. So our. human circuits fail. So this. complimentary circuit when it works. together, we know even if you go to the. corporate world, that business decisions. that are made with logic and emotion are.

the best decisions. And that's. emphasized in neuroscience that we know. decision-making by both human and chimp. circuits together are the best. decisions. Mhm. So you use your chimp's. intuition and its enthusiasm and its. drives, but you harness them and you channel. them. So you learn which is what this is. all about, mind management. Mhm. So you. start to know I've got this amazing. machine now, but it's almost like a. living machine. I'm I'm going to get it. on side and help. So I agree these.

people the chimp will drive them to be. successful. I'd like to think that my. chimp's really very very strong. Mhm. But it's on board because I manage it. and it knows I I'm not against my. emotions and my my my emotionally based. brain. I'm not against them. I use them. I I think what's the message they're. telling me. So any any emotions we get are messages. Mhm. They're not meant to be engaged. with. They're meant to be worked on so. that you actually use them. Quick one. I talked to you guys about. Huel a lot. So I'm going to do a quick.

intermission to tell you about a bit of. a change that's happened in the last 2. months in my life. As you guys know, my. favorite Huel product historically has. been the ready-to-drink, which is these. bottles here. They are nutritionally. complete. However, recently since Huel. introduced the Huel protein, this now. plays a huge role in my diet. The salted. caramel flavor protein from Huel, which. is only 105 calories and has 26 vitamins. and minerals and 20 g of protein, um. serves two roles in my life now. First. thing I do when I wake up in the morning.

is I have a glass. And then at night. time, after I've been to the gym, straight off to the gym, I have a glass. It tastes amazing. If you're going to. try it, follow my instructions here. Get a couple of cubes of ice, put it in. a blender, put on the salted caramel. protein, and it tastes like a delicious. smoothie. I've already gone through one. tub of this. I'm actually on my second. tub and I've got two more tubs to go. before I'm going to reorder more. But. genuinely, the salted caramel flavor, maybe because I have a liking for salted. caramel, for me has been a game-changer. I wanted to talk about exactly that.

topic, which is like managing your. emotional reactions. Yeah. Um across different facets of. life. And I think. um I'll get let me just give you an. example of a situation that I went. through that I wrote about in my book. So I'm just going to be completely. honest cuz that's what I tend to do on. this podcast. Um I broke up with a girl. and um like 2 days later I found out. that she'd slept with somebody else. Mhm. And when I even though I'd broken. up with her when I when I read the. message that she'd slept with somebody. else, my brain Yeah. Revenge.

Message her. Destroy her life. That's what my brain. said to me. But I. um and and I'm at a place in my life. where I feel quite. secure in myself image, let's say. I. don't feel particularly insecure. I'm. I'm I'm I'm a confident person. But even. I couldn't seem to get a grip of my own. um. desire to react emotionally in that. situation. Okay. Um and really. interestingly as well, it was actually. my friend calling me. I went to the gym.

I thought maybe I'll go to the gym and. that'll like clear my head. It was my friend calling me and and this. I don't know where this fits in. psychiatry, but my friend said to me, "Steve, just remember you broke up with. her. She's probably doing this to um. make herself feel better and to you know. rebound or whatever.". But um that was one of those key moments. where I was like, "God, like. the damage you can do if you don't know. how to control. that like primitive urge to just uh. Okay. You've covered a lot of ground. there. Yeah. That could be an hour's work here. So I'm going to need to take it back and.

then try and go very steadily to try and. drive home. There's a lot of areas. One. is first of all, what would you expect. somebody's mind to do confronted with. the same situation? What would you. expect them to do? Probably the same thing. Exactly. So. nothing abnormal happened. There wasn't. a problem. Yeah. You're saying this is. absolutely healthy and normal, but maybe. not helpful. Yeah. And what you really. said, because you've told me this, if it. wasn't a problem to you, you wouldn't. have mentioned it. So clearly, your. human brain is saying, "I don't want to.

get revenge. That's not what I want. What I want is to just be calm and. collected, accept the reality of it, and. move on.". Unfortunately, we have to learn now how. the mind works. So it's like saying you went to the gym. So therefore you're a fitness man. If I. said to you, "Right, I've never been to. a gym for 30 years. I'm going to go. tonight and at the end of the day I'm. going to be super fit.". And you laugh because you know that's. ridiculous. It's not the way the body. works. So we have to now look at another. aspect. Now we know it's normal. How.

does the mind work when we get a really. nasty shock and something which is. devastating? So the. the reason that chimp is there and the. reason we're here. is for us to be safe and present the. next generation to the world. That's. what the chimp's agenda is. So what. happened there is the generation that. you thought you were going to get was. taken away from you. So this is. devastating. So we expect you to be. devastated. We also expect you to accept. the mind is going to now grieve and. it'll take approximately 3 months, give.

or take. Are you talking about. heartbreak here? Yeah, you've got to grieve. Yeah. So the the mind has a rule on the. way it deals and processes grief. I. can't speed that up. So if some like if. I meet you at night and I say, "Right, I'm going to get you out of it." I'm. going to fail. Because you have to go. through these ripples and and work it. through. So your your human brain can do. it in seconds cuz that's logic. She's. gone. She was dishonest. It's a good. thing she's gone now. No more wasted. time. Yep, that's easy. But the. emotional chimp brain has got to process.

it. It cannot do it overnight. So you've. got to now allow a round of 12-week. process and you're going to go through. various stages of grief in the loss of. what is a very significant relationship. And on top of that, there was another. insult. It wasn't just she said it's not. for me. She slept with someone else. So. that is really going to get your chimp. You know, we expect it now to be. devastated. And your chimp's reaction, some people wouldn't, uh but it's common. that it wants revenge.

It wants to say, "Right, if you did this. to me, you're going to suffer now.". Um. In reality, what you just said by your. nodding is that's not what I want. I. just want to move on and accept it. wasn't for me. She did what she did. That's her problem, not yours. And what your friend did is start to try. and turn it round with some facts to. calm your chimp down and say, cuz it. always looks to the computer, "Let's. look at reality." And the reality is if. I said to you, "Um this girl is going to come back into. your life and you'll bring all that. pleasure you used to have, but she's. going to have affairs every few weeks.

Is that what you want?" No. And so you. did break it off. You you know, so you you try and look at. it in a different way and say, "Let's. look at the reality and the facts of the. situation." But you cannot stop the. grieving. You can't stop the yearning or. the bargaining. Cuz guys in the. opposition often go back and plead. And. then she'll say, "I made a mistake." And. and then you have to make a decision. Mhm. You know? And then they'll bargain. again. And then if you go through that, you're going to disorganized stage. But this can all be circumvented. If you.

suddenly met somebody new, your chimp. might recover very quickly. Is that what. tends to happen? Well, that's we know this is the. rebound. Right. So this is never a good thing. Okay. I'm I'm sure some of you listening. are going to say, "I married the person. I met on a rebound." So of course, it's. all probabilities, but generally. speaking, you need time to get over. this. Gather yourself so you're in a. good place when you do meet somebody. else to have a good relationship. That's. interesting. quite complex, the whole thing. So yes, rationally, we can pull you along, but. we've got to give you a lot of TLC and. naturally go through grieving. Don't be.

harsh on yourself. And what your. experiences are totally natural. Unhelpful, but natural. So many people. are going through a grieving process. And it could be a significant life. event. It could be the loss of a. partner, the death or Is there anything. in psychiatry from your experience that. can Okay, that process is unavoidable. But is there anything that I can do to. help that process be easier? Yes, there is. I mean, one is. understanding it. As you say, if you. start to go through this and say to. people like, "This is how your mind has. to do this." Like you tell me with the.

gym, you laugh. I can't do it in a. night. Well, how long? You say like it's. a bit of a piece of string. But roughly. speaking, if you keep going regularly. two, three times a week, maybe 3 months, 6 months, you're going to see a. difference, for sure. And it's the same. with me explaining the mind. I would. explain to people that we go through a. grieving process. You are likely to. experience the following emotions or. stages in the grief process, but you are. unique, and everybody grieves. individually. So, it's very important, as I said earlier, I don't have a. process,

you know, like a recipe and say this is. what we're going to do. I work with you. as you grieve. But, I want you to get. insights. That's the key. So, the work I. do is giving understanding and insight, and. so you learn the skill of managing your. emotions and the skill of understanding, the skill of mind management. That's. what I'm about, teaching a skill base so. you can be independent of me, but use me. as a fallback. On that on the point of rejection, which. we talked about a second ago, is it the. stories that I then tell myself about. myself, which impact my self-image, that.

really hold that hurt me the most? Because it feels like when you go. through emotional sorry, romantic. rejection or heartbreak, it feels like. um even if you it's not at the front. sort of like front of your mind, the. fact that someone didn't want you or. they were they wanted someone else. makes yourself tell yourself that you. are not good enough, not pretty enough, not smart enough, you you weren't. enough. And it feels like so much of the. hurt and the pain lives inside that.

story you're telling yourself about. yourself. And again, if you stop and we. look at what you've said there, are these factual statements or are they. impressions and feelings? Impressions. and feelings. So, we know that the chimp. brain is in full flow now. Yeah. So, what we're saying is don't quench that. It's not wrong. It's expressing and it's. like, as I said earlier, you've got this. best friend. So, if this happens to me, I now say to him, "What is it you're. telling me?" And he'll go through all. this, you know, it's the end of the. world and you know, you clearly no one's. ever going to love you and and then we.

sort of counter it by saying, "Well, let's look at that." So, we start to. rationalize and that can help the. grieving process. Cuz we start saying, "Well, let's not just sit there with. these false thoughts. Let's challenge. them and let's replace them with truth.". Not brainwash. It's no good saying, for. example, say I'm your best mate and. you've just fallen apart and you say, "It's cuz I'm ugly." It's no good me. saying, "No, you're really handsome.". That's not. That's an impression again from me. What. what I'd be saying is let's look at. facts. If we look at people in. relationships, do people find a partner.

eventually? And the answer is most. people, yes. So, the chances are very. high. And if you can get through this, will you eventually get back on your. feet? Is there a future? Yeah. Yeah, there always is a future. There always. is a future. Even for people in a much. more serious situation where they become. suicidal. And obviously, as part of my work, you. can tell them with honesty, there is. always a future and things do change and. feelings do move. So, when you start. giving these facts and rationalizing the.

facts of the situation, that is going to. be powerful for starting to settle your. emotions. Mhm. But, giving falsehoods, Mhm. you know, I know you can do it or you're. That's not going to settle your chimp. They're streetwise. Yeah, yeah. So, he'll just keep agitating. Whereas, if. we talk facts, then it'll settle. But, again, there's a key point here. We have to find the facts that resonate. with you as facts. Because if I said, like I just did, will. you find another partner? What's what's. the general rule? If you said to me,

"Yeah, but I don't believe that. everybody does." There's no point me. forcing this truth onto you. I'd have to. look for others that might resonate with. you. Yeah. Such as, if I go out and I. actually start socializing when I'm. ready, then the chances are I'll. increase my probability, so that gives. me a better hope. You might work with. that. Yeah. So, you've got to find what resonates. with the person. And again, that's why I. don't have this recipe. I'm saying. discover them, but think around, but you. can offer common things. Yeah.

Super interesting. And it. again, it perfectly explains why in that. moment, for some bizarre reason, my. friend telling me, being very sort of. rational with me, things that I. genuinely did accept to be true, just. completely diffused my brain. Because he's acting effectively as your. human. Yeah. That's what he's doing. He's coming in rationally and stepping. back and saying, "Let's look at the. facts here." And he's hit some nails on. the head where you think, "Oh, that's. settled me down a bit." Yeah. So, but. what tends to happen is you tend to. isolate yourself. Most people do this.

after this has happened and they go. within themselves and they engage these. emotions, which generates more and more. falsehoods and distorted ways of. perceiving themselves and the world, instead of being able to, which is not. easy, talk to themselves rationally. Mhm. And preempting things like, you. know, let's work with reality. It's not. easy to do that. So, when you can't do. it, it's not a failure, you turn to your. best friends and they'll do it for you. That's so interesting cuz I just I just. realized um something that I've started.

doing in the last year and people think. I'm a proper I'm a little bit strange. for doing this, but in those moments, specifically as it relates to like. romantic situations where I'm struggling. to get a to to respond act or behave in. a way which I want to, which is in line. with who I want to be, I've got this. habit now, two things. just correct you. I've got it. Sorry, yeah, please. It's who you are. Who I am. Okay. Not who you want to be. That is so. important because it, you know, if you. get that, it's a lightbulb moment to. say, you know, you are this really great.

individual. And it's not just blowing. smoke up people. People, by and large, 90% of people are great people. Their. chimps, because they're not managed, can. create havoc. Or their computers can. have beliefs in which cause them to act. in ways which are not helpful. So, they're they're the gremlins I talk. about. So, when you look at that, I'm. saying you're always this great person. The world may never see it. And my job is to help you to present. yourself as you are to the world. Then. they will see who the real you is. But, that doesn't stop you seeing the real. you. Mhm. You know, when you get home at night,

look in the mirror, don't see your chimp. looking back. You know. Yeah, I know what you mean. Look at look and see the human in you. looking back, the real you, and respect. that. Cuz that's who you are. So, I've. interrupted you. No, but please, thank. you for doing that because it's it's. important and I I realize that even the. slightest like misuse of words can send. you down a different path. Exactly. Exactly. I'm I'm very keen on making sure my. terminology is right as I describe. myself and others. So, if you see me doing that, please do. correct. I. I I again, I write about that in my own. book about how just like the the misuse.

of like one or two words can completely. send you down the wrong wrong sort of. train of thinking. But, what I was saying is there's two things. that I've started to do. The first is I. now write in the notes of my phone um. statements I know to be true. Yeah. And. the second thing is, this is the. slightly strange thing, is I will. have a conversation out loud when I'm. alone to try and rationalize against how. I'm feeling. Brilliant. So, I'm going to pick these. both up because these are really key.

points and this is why I'm going to. promote the book now. I was saying that I wanted to share. this. These are common features that we. have and there's lots of them. And one. of the things you said scientifically. really intrigues me. So, you mentioned. what I call the grade A hits, the truth. that resonate with you. Put them in your. phone, look at them and they stabilize. your chimp at any point. So, you have. grade A hits. So, we we touched on one, for example, not everybody's going to. like you. And there are nasty people in. the world. I'd like to add some. positives. There are some fantastic.

people in the world and there'll always. be people who love you. You're never. alone. You just need to reach out. So, those are nice grade A hits if they. resonate with you, but a very important. one. When we looked at therapies, and this. has been researched for the last 50. years, we we intrigued to know why do. they work? And I'm giving you the the. model I introduced to try and show the. neuroscience base. Um but, the. intriguing bit was when you speak into. the air, effectively, it's the chimp. brain giving out its thoughts and. feelings.

And your human's listening. So, actually rationalizes as you listen. And it's not unusual in business. meetings, I've seen it, where I've. worked with corporate teams and said, "Just speak what you think, but don't. judge them." They let the chimps out and. at the end I say to the person, "What do. you think about that?" And they'll laugh. and say, "I don't agree with any of it.". Because now I've listened to myself, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah. So, it's very. important that we do speak out and this. is what the base of therapies are, that. when we talk, we start to listen to. ourselves and we start to be understand. and process. Because that's because our.

human brain is actually now taking the. lead and listening. Yeah. Cuz it it felt. cuz there's been a couple of key moments. where just context is I've been in a. quite a challenging relationship where. my partner's going through a journey. They actually live in Indonesia, long. way long long way away, and she's going. through her own journey and sometimes. she's not always communicating with me. Sometimes she can be unpredictable. Sometimes she can kind of go missing for. a couple of days in terms of like being. emotionally vacant. And throughout that.

journey, I've tried not to like control, manipulate, impress myself, have high. expectation, and just kind of be and let. her do what she needs to do. And. obviously, my chimp brain Yeah. will always be. trying to jump to conclusions or trying. to seek control or to dominate or to. force the outcome or, you know, to force. expectations on on her or the situation. And my sort of human brain is um is. wanting to be that compassionate.

empathetic person who is understanding. and isn't trying to force an outcome out. of somebody. And so, when I have that. struggle, it'll be lying in a hotel room. somewhere at night, my brain is going da. da da da. Yeah. And then I have to speak out loud. to kind of calm myself again. So, I have. to state what I know to be true. And I. if you look to the notes of my phone. now, it's not me just saying this. There. are a list of 20 things that I remind. myself of that are like fundamental. truths and they calm me. Yeah. Um. what I advocate and I like people to get.

me five and then we challenge them and. make sure they are really strong. And they apply generically through life. Yeah. You know, and and it does settle. our emotional mind down. But, having. said that, it it's not a panacea. It's not like. it's always going to settle. Sometimes. we have specific experiences which can. throw us. And then we have to learn how. to manage these emotions. So again, when. you say you're in the hotel room and. your mind is spinning, stop the battle and I say express your. mind. So say to the chimp, "Exactly what.

is it you're trying to tell me? What are. you worried about?" And we have to. accept, and this is important, that. sometimes our relationships are based on. trust. And we have to accept that reality. We. cannot know everything about the person. we're with. So, clearly we'll ask questions and we'll. form a relationship, get to know them. But at the end of the day, any. friendship or relationship is on trust, and we must accept we will never know. Sometimes we'll never know. And if our. chimp switch are panicky a bit and want. guarantees and what have then we we're.

going down the wrong path and we have to. tell our chimp, "You can't do this.". The biggest thing to follow on to that. is, as you've experienced, and. almost universal, you get your heart. broken. It's extremely painful. It can. damage you. And it often you lose. confidence in all areas of your life. So. it's time to just build back up and give. yourself time. But if you experience that and you go. with the flow, not engage with it, you. will come out the other side much. better, much stronger. And then you come. in with the factual evidence again that.

people do recover from broken. relationships. People don't know what the next. relationship will be. Not everybody is. the same. So you start, like you're. saying, giving all these greater hits to. it. I'm I'm someone that tries things and um. that was one of the things that I tried. Yeah. Um, cuz it felt like the right. thing to do when my brain was just. losing a bit of control. And it. genuinely worked. So I carried on doing. it. Um, but it's good to understand the. kind of basis in psychiatry. Um, Can I just follow that through? Cuz I.

know people listening. And when you um. you said to me, you know, this I my mind. spinning in a hotel room. There's. another really big truth I say to. people. Your chimp cannot cannot deal with. uncertainty. It's based on the So it's. never going to be happy. And your job is. to say, "Look, we have to live with. uncertainty.". You have to tell it that that you cannot. guarantee it. It's bit like going with. the elite athlete. You cannot guarantee. a gold medal. So don't try because. you're just going to stress yourself. You know, accept that it's a throw of. the dice in sport. Life is a throw of.

the dice. All we can do is try and alter. the probability with the dice. But there's a big factor here. The chimp. can't deal with some outcomes you can. As adult humans, we can deal with. anything. And that's a fact we can put in our. computer, which will again, for a lot of. people settle down. There's nothing you. can't deal with. You will deal with it. The chimp believes you can't deal with. it. And it doesn't look beyond. Whereas I'm. saying, "Look beyond and say, whatever.

happens in life, you'll look back and. think, I did deal with life." And maybe. we can deal with it quicker if we work. with a mind and learn how to expedite. things like this and and not sit with. them as problems. Learn how to move it. forward and be much more positive. Uncertainty. Stress. One of the topics um you write about in. your book, A Path Through the Jungle, but also I've I've been quite intrigued. by over the years is the idea of stress. I think it's been painted as a really. negative thing, something to be for us.

to avoid at all costs. But from what. I've understood, that's not necessarily. the truth. Stress can be a good and a. bad thing. Yeah. I mean, trying to just go with the. neuroscience again. If we look at where. stress comes from, um. it's a good thing provided we act on it. Uh, if you have like gone a big dipper. ride, your brain releases a lot of. noradrenaline. And we know this is a good thing. You. get a thrill from it. But if you keep on. being in a stressful situation,

noradrenaline stays high and that now. becomes damaging to us. And it's joined by the big one, which is. cortisol. And they're all of the. negative hormones and transmitters. And. so these, when they're held at high. levels, become damaging. In short. bursts, they're actually healthy because. they can wake us up to saying, "Right, you need to act.". So we do have resilience hormones coming. in. Uh, and they will then give us an. opportunity, as long as you recognize. it, to say stress is welcome provided I.

act to remove it. There's something I. need to do, whatever's causing me the. stress. What tends to happen is people. either don't recognize they're getting. stressed and it becomes chronic. And. they've got these habitual behaviors. which are damaging to them and they. don't even recognize them. Um, and then they get symptoms of stress. which they also not recognize. Because. people think stress is where we ringing. our hands and panicking, and that's not. really true. Stress comes in all. different forms and often isn't. recognized. So for example,

um we know things like all your drives. may go out. So your eating drive, sex. drive, sleep drives, these all start to. falter, can change in any direction. But. also things like irritability, suddenly. finding you've got a short fuse, constantly being tired. These is This is. usually an evidence of stress somewhere. in your life. Um, but even more subtle ones, when you. get people with gr- really bad anxiety, so you have a generalized anxiety state, gross anxiety, um they can be appear selfish. Because. suddenly they become so vulnerable in.

their own eyes and stressed, they don't. actually pay attention to people around. them. And when we treat them and they. get better, they suddenly start engaging with people. again and show demonstrate respect and. com- and understanding. And but while. they're not well, they become almost selfish or appear. that way. So again, you can get people. who are stressed and appear to be very. self-interested. And it's really vulnerability. They're. under stress and we misunderstand or. misinterpret it and start thinking.

someone's a selfish person. I mean, they. may be selfish, but I'm saying it is one. of the hidden stress factors that can. start appearing. In terms of the causes of stress, um. I think one of the widely held beliefs. is, especially now as we think about. mental illness, is that it's a lot of. it's about sort of pent-up, unaddressed. issues. Or us not releasing or expressing what. we're thinking or feeling. Is that. accurate? It is, but then the etiology. of the cause of stress is is multiple.

So again, it could be for example that. you've got an ongoing problem, somebody. bullying you. You know, that's. stressful. Or you're lacking a partner. and it really isn't working out. And. that can stress you because you feel. like it's never going to happen. You. know, there's false starts and you start. to become stressed by it. Or as you. said, you could have experiences from. way back. which have never really been worked. through or addressed. And they therefore. keep surfacing. They bubble under these. emotions and that will definitely create.

stress. It tends to be they they don't present. with stress as such. They present with. odd emotions. So they translate into. things like irritability. And and when you say, "Well, let's look. at why you're being irritable," it's. unaddressed issues that that you need to. get up to the surface in the time you. want to do it. and then clear the computer system as. I'm calling it. So you've processed. these issues. And sometimes addiction? An addiction to? Well, so um I've my.

business partner, and he's talked about. this very much openly at length. He's. actually come on this podcast and talked. about this. He obviously um he became a. alcoholic. Yeah. Um, when we were. growing the business, um I I believe in. his words because it was incredibly it. was incredibly difficult. We were, you. know, 20 years old. We had, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of. employees all around the world. And we'd. never done this before. And um. we were living together. And I think the. pressure of the business um and the.

stress, as he would describe it, um. meant that he he was turning to alcohol. to cope. Okay. So two separate things again is. like, I mean, I don't know cuz I'm just. giving like a little potted history. So. clearly um. alcohol is a coping strategy, a very. poor one, that people use to get social confidence. for example or remove anxiety or even. depression. And generally it won't work. out. It will end up being a problem. within itself. But alcohol disorders are.

then in in approximately one in eight. people will change the brain in the way. it functions and they then get these. cravings and addiction. Uh, whereas a. lot of people it's more of a behavioral. addiction. So it's a case of getting new. behavior, work out what's causing the. problem, and we sort it and they can. stop and drink alcohol socially. But we. have to accept that genetically uh, some. people, I'm going to do my medical role. here. I I worked with alcohol services. for some years. Um, and patients who are. addicted mean they actually have a.

different brain system. So we know that. their brain will cause craving. and they will respond to certain. medications that behaviorally drinking. people won't. So again, it's learning. which group you're in. And they have to. they must abstain. Because we know that. if they drink small amounts of alcohol, it sets the system off again. So we get. this repeat behavior and have to say, you know, unluckily, it's bit like no. different to someone who can't drink. milk. If they've got lactose. intolerance, the answer is you can't. drink milk. Um, and if they've got an addictive.

genetic loading towards alcohol, then. they mustn't drink. They we're saying it. this is just a one-way. street to disaster. Is that Is that a. thing? Oh, yeah, yeah. People are genetically. predisposed. We know it runs in. families. And we know that people's. brains react differently to alcohol. intake. And there there is a subgroup. where we're changing the way that they. operate in the brain. So therefore we. know that, as I say, they will get that. craving. I mean, there was once a group. of guys in London early days when my. career. in the alcohol services. And these were. all guys who had problems with alcohol.

And I asked them, I said, "Look, I've. got all the medical knowledge, and but. you tell me. The reality is what makes. you think you're an alcoholic?" And they. said something interesting, which rang. true with the neuroscience later in my. career. They said, "We know we're. alcoholics cuz if we go to a pub and we. ask for a drink, it won't stop." Yeah. Whereas people who are drinking for. other reasons can stop. Whereas we. immediately change one drink and we. change. Yeah. And that was such a. fantastic thing to get from these guys. I'm indebted to them because it was.

almost a question I'd ask, and it seems. to run run true. Yeah. Nearly every case. I know now we've got a problem. Whereas if people say, "No, I could. stop, and I don't, you know, bite my. nails when I leave." I just think, "Okay, I'll have one today." But someone. who's got a true addiction, a physical. addiction, they said their mind changes. After one drink, it's just completely. different, and you can't stop. The. craving appears. I I am I've been saying. um. when I talk about my business partner, Dom, and he doesn't mind me talking.

about cuz he's been on as I said, he's. been on this podcast talking about He's. very, very open, and he's a big he's a. big um public speaker about the topic of. alcohol and sobriety. But um the way I. would describe my experience with him. and my other friends is just as a graph. So, Dom's drinking, if he had and I'd. say this, I've said this multiple times, if he had one, the graph would looks the line of the. graph would look like this. Mine would. be I could have three and then stop. Yeah. Yeah. So, his was always like. this. So, if he if he went to the bar, I. knew the end of the night would be.

him falling over because there wouldn't. be the thing in his brain that he can't. stop. He can't stop. And whereas I could have two, and I'm. like, "Woof, that's me done." Or I don't. need any more, or, you know, I'm. whatever is and that's. Well, interesting when I started looking. at this and we detailed a bit, the. neuroscience behind it brought me back. to the chimp model because we know that. we make decisions from either the chimp. system or the human. And when we drink. alcohol, it actually interferes with the. circuits of rationality. So, the human effectively gets disabled.

So, now our chimp is fully in charge, so. it does impulsive things which the next. day it may very well regret. And that's. because at the time the decision-making. they've got is impaired. So, and. you know, most people say, "Oh, I'm. better for a drink." It's interesting. that most partners say no, they're not. Mhm. They're not. So, we the brain. actually fools itself. So, so there is a biological basis. behind the. decision-making we get when these people. have got addictive uh genetic.

personalities so that they actually. can't stop. I'm conscious of um people thinking. that, you know, cuz we'll all know a. friend like that. Yeah. But it doesn't. necessarily mean they're an alcoholic, does it? No. I mean, I don't I don't personally. like the term. I think we just look at. the you know, the fact that they're. uh addicted to a substance of some kind. or they've got a craving. I'd much. rather. give that term an allergy, otherwise it. feels a bit judgmental. So, I'm just. saying, you know, how do you use. alcohol? Do you misuse it or do you use. it appropriately? What Where do you. fall? And if you've got an addiction to.

it, then let's look at that addiction. and see whether it's a physical. addiction or psychological addiction. So. again, it's like going through a grid to. make sure we get the right thing for the. right person. Quick one. As many of you know, I've. been trying to make my life a little bit. more sustainable as it relates to energy. ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport. and bought an electric bicycle. And. Myenergi, as a sponsor of this podcast, is one of the brands that make that. transition much, much easier. They are. at the forefront of British renewable. eco-smart technology, and their products.

are really, really changing the game. If. you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm. holding in my hand. This is called the. Eddie, right? It's the UK's number one. solar-powered diverter. So, what is a. solar diverter? It's a device for people. like you and me that means you can. divert your excess energy back into your. home rather than back into the grid, which will save you power and money. It's super user-friendly and easy to. install, and you can control it using. the Myenergi app on your phone. To find. out more about this product and more.

products like it that will help you make. that sustainable transition, head over. to myenergi.com, and um I highly recommend you check out. the Eddie. It's um it's a real. game-changer of a product and one that. I'm going to be installing in my home. soon. One of the things you talk about. extensively is about forming habits. Yeah. And um a lot of people in my life. recently, including myself, have tried. to be tried to form habits, especially. during the lockdown when so much of our. lives was um our habits were broken, our. cycles were broken because we were all. trapped in our houses. So, whether we, you know, had formed a habit of going to.

the Starbucks then the gym in the. morning or whatever, we had our habits. broken. So, I spent a lot of time. thinking about how I could form. healthier habits in my life. One of them. was working out every day. Um but I and. one of the sort of, I guess, popular. narratives is that if you do something. for 21 days, it becomes a habit. What is. the truth about habits and how we form. them? I mean, there's a lot of research on. this, and they're a little bit. contradictory. So, read and believe what. you you like. But I mean, the general. feel is that if you look at why we form. a habit,

it's either consciously done with a. belief system or it's unconsciously. done. We aren't thinking about it. A common. one, for example, a a poor habit is. uh and I use this a lot when I do. keynote speeches to say to people, "When. you go home, if you're with a partner. that you love, um how do you present to. them when you arrive?". And it's amazing how most people mourn. Which, you know, they've not thought. that what They don't want to see. somebody mourning. You don't meet. someone and say, "You could have this. every day of your life. I'll come back. and see you." You know, so what you do.

is you walk in and think, "What habit. would you like?" And the belief then is, "If I go in mourning, they could leave. me.". Yeah. This could damage Now, that's. going to shift your habit. So, once. you've turned the belief around is. you're unconsciously doing it without. thinking, "This is damaging.". And so if you actually sit down and and. work that out and put it in your. computer system, then when the chimp. gets through the door, it's not going to. mourn because what the chimp has to do. scientifically is consult the computer. before it does anything. It all happens. in a tiny fraction of a second, but if.

the computer's programmed to say, "Don't. forget,". it will unconsciously remind the chimp, "You need to be in a good place when you. walk in because that's what they're. going to decide on whether they're there. the next night." Mhm. So, you start to. recognize that being someone who mourns. all the time or complains when you first. meet someone isn't ideal. So, we have these unconscious habits. which we're not aware of, which we can. bring to conscious by starting to look. at our life and say, "Is this how I want. to be?" But you have to ask the. question. Or we have habits like we eat too much.

Now, these are different because the. first one wasn't based on a drive, it's. just based on a a behavior that we've. gotten to a pattern. The The eating. habit's much more complex cuz now you've. got not only a behavior that we've got. into like eating too much or eating the. wrong things. Uh we're driven with an. incredibly powerful survival drive to. eat. So, now we we have to deal with two. aspects. One is what is it the habit. that we want to get and what are the.

beliefs we're going to underpin with it, and how are we going to manage this. drive? How are we going to fulfill the. drive in a way that our chimp's happy, that it's got its drive fulfilled, and. we're happy? Mhm. So, now you really. have to look at that. So, that's a big. battle. That's not an easy battle, but. it can be won. It can be won. So again, habits are not. straightforward. Mhm. They need to be. subdivided and say, "Let's look at. unconscious, conscious, whether they're. linked to drives, or they're linked to. some really bad experience." Sometimes.

we have a habit because we've got a bad. bad experience. It's like you you. explained that you went through a really. bad time with this girl. If it got. repeated, God forbid, if it got repeated. three or four times, you can see how. your habit would be to distrust. Yeah. And it would become a habit because your. belief is that. the these women are not trustworthy. And. suddenly your chimp generalizes all. women are like this. And you hear a guy. saying this. And clearly that's a sound. true. You know? And so with you, I'd be. looking and saying, "When you meet these. girls, what are you looking for in the.

girl? Are you looking at physical looks? Are you looking at Do they make me. laugh? Are you looking at their values?". Mhm. So, we can actually start looking. at how you're choosing your partners. Mhm. And that might help you to avoid. the behavior, the habit of picking up. what you might then define as the wrong. person. And and worse even to blame. yourself then instead of saying, "Right, let's analyze this." So again, there's. habits there where it's based on. um your belief of what you've. experienced, or you're letting your.

chimp make decisions. instead of your human saying, "Hang on, can't I make decisions from a more. rational basis than just keep deciding. on an emotional basis?" There's a lot of. reflective work that goes into being. able to understand and kind of rewrite. those. first like spot, understand, and rewrite. those um those those beliefs you have. What What is What is the path to What is. the path to reflection for, you know, not everybody can go and see. yourself every day and chat to yourself. I'm going to be mentioning my book now.

Go ahead. Not trying to promote, but. Um the obviously I help I've helped a. lot of people, and it's been a massive. privilege. It's very humbling when. people do do well. But one of the. complaints people said is exactly what. you said. I can't work with everybody, and I've got a team. Uh so, we'd run. lots of stuff, workshops and. one-to-ones. However, um for Joe Public, some said, "I want to work on my own.". And so I wrote this uh Path of the. Jungle as as a manual. with lots of diagrams, lots of science. references this time for people who want.

to follow them up. Um I hope it's really readable, and it. starts from square one and says, "Let's. look at the structure and the function. of your mind." Then it takes you through. this a journey almost through the mind. saying, "Let's look at how emotions. work." We talk about grief processes and. relationships. Um talking about. interacting with others. So, I've done a. lot, and basically what it leads to is. eventually you learn how to become. robust and resilient. In other words, get yourself into a great place, uh and. it and this text you with practical. exercises that you try out and find the.

ones that resonate with you. Across. eight stages? Yes. Understanding your mind, emotional. management, working with emotions, changing habits and managing life. events, the two main stabili-. stabilizers of the mind, creating a. stress-free lifestyle, optimizing. interactions with others, and then stage. eight is pulling it all together. One of the um the last thing I really. wanted to to talk to you about was this. um this idea of um fear of failure, which I think underpins so much of. specifically for my audience um one of. the big barriers in their life. The. I I get I get thousands of messages.

every week and it's people trying to. take that step to to become to start. their business or to you know start that. hobby or pursue that dream they have, but there seems to be something holding. them back. Okay. I mean, I'll just take. what you've given me there because it. could be a a multitude of reasons. As. I've I keep saying, everyone is unique. and that's that's what's intriguing. about working with people. It it's. fantastic cuz every person is different. But you mentioned a fear of failure, so. I'm going to be controversial. I don't. there's no such thing in my book as a. fear of failure. What we're really.

saying, and it's really important. subtlety, as you said before about. language, your fear isn't failure, it's fear of. not being able to deal with the. consequences of failure. Now, that might sound the same thing, but it isn't because if you fear of. failure, there's nothing you can do with. that because it's it could happen. Mhm. So, you're stuck with fearing failure. Whereas if you say I fear the. consequences. of failure, not being able to deal with. them, now you can do something cuz we can look. at the consequences and address them and.

get people to be able to say, I can deal. with it. Whatever happens, I can deal. with it. So, the fear of not actually. succeeding disappears because they've. got this, I'm aware, I've got a plan. Mhm. So, I meet a lot of people who say. that to me, particularly athletes, I fear failure. And I have to correct it and say that's. not actually what the brain is looking. at. It's saying, I fear not being able. to deal with the consequences of. failure. Mhm. And that's something I can. work with. There's just two other things before we.

round up that I was really intrigued by. Um and we you might have might have. touched on both in various ways. throughout this conversation. This idea. that if you wake up in the morning and. you set your state just by saying to. yourself, I'm going to have a good day. increases the chance of you having a. good day. No. Is that. Well, again, I'm not into brainwashing, but there is some truth in the sense. that what you're really saying, if you. stop, and I do advocate people to sit on. the end of the bed when they get up and. say, let's just reset and get some. perspective before I begin my day. I do. advocate this strongly.

Because what you're doing is you're. actually saying to your computer system, this day is going to be good. So, you've. added a lot of underwritten beliefs now, which are things like uh I'm going to. make the most of it. I've no intention. of dwelling on misery. I've no intention. of being negative. There's lots of. things you said in that one statement. potentially. And you've primed your. computer with that. So, when you go. downstairs then and you get a letter on. the doorstep that's got a bill, your. chimp will immediately go to react, but. it has to look to the computer. And if.

you've already said it's going to be a. good day, it will remind the chimp, there's no. point in stressing, it's going to be a. good day. And it can therefore be. scientifically accurate that your chimp. will stop. And that gives you human. chance to go, so when you get a bill, And connected to that, my last point is. about gratitude, something you talk. about a lot as well in the power of. gratitude. Yeah, it this uh again, the. research uh shows that people who are. grateful for for things in their life. And again, I do promote this and say, let's look at what you've got. And let's. look at what's really good things that.

have happened to you. And there's so. much we're grateful for. The evidence is. overwhelming that people who are. grateful throughout life have really. good psychological and physical good. health. So, it affects the entire system. just by being grateful and seeing life. in a different setting rather than. constantly thinking what I lack. Mhm. Look at what you've got. You can practice that. And you can practice and that in itself. can become a habit. That can be a habit. There's lots of. habits we can do. I've offered some in. the book. Yeah, it's amazing. Hopefully.

it'll help. So, listen, this this book. is um your first book was amazing. because as you say, it introduced the. idea and the the sort of the model. Yeah. But the what I think is so um. amazing about this book is how sort of. inclusive it is and actionable. And as. you said, there's pictures, there's. diagrams. It feels more like like a. workbook you get when you're trying to. um methodically work through your. problems. what it is. And we're using it as a. companion to the eight workshop series. video, which runs through the eight. stages.

So, you're absolutely right. So, this is. for someone who really takes it. seriously. And they can dip in and out, but I'd advise them to to go through it. steadily and apply maybe some of the. things every week. because I think that's how we get them. into our life as as permanent habits as. you say. Um I can't recommend this book enough. because your work has helped so many. people. And I I said to you before we. started recording, my business partner. was really struggling with um problems. in his life. And I said he doesn't read. a ton of books, but the book that he did. read was The Chimp Paradox. And he.

evangelizes it and credits it with. helping him overcome his alcohol. addiction, but really kind of get his. psychological sort of like his yeah, psychological dysfunction in order. And. for for you to have then gone on and. created a book like this that is a. methodical workbook, I think is really. going to have even more impact on. people. And I'd highly recommend anyone. listening to this. I'm not just saying. this cuz he's sat here, but um you. really are an author of our time that I. think has um helped to un- shine a light. on the most important um thing in the. world, which is the human mind. Um I.

think that is the center point of all of. our decision-making control, influence, love, happiness, fulfillment. And um I. don't know a book or someone better to. help us understand it than this book and. you. So, Well, that's very kind of you. to say. Well, don't forget congratulate. your colleague because I can only offer. They do the work. Straight, yeah. So, he's the one who's managed it. And he's. the one who needs to pat himself on the. back. Same with everyone, you know, I. don't do it. I just offer the tools that. you can do. You got to pick them up and. do them. So, then congratulate yourself. So, but thank you very much for inviting.

me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank. you, Steve. Thanks. [Music]. [Music].