Hinge CEO: The Truth About Dating Apps, Attraction And Finding Love In 2024!

We've done deep dive research studies on. how can we help everyone to become more. successful daters. So, what makes daters successful? So, the faster that you can. the faster you're going to find someone. who's like, yes, this is the type of. person that I want to be with. Justin McLeod, the founder and CEO of. the fastest growing dating app, Hinge. I built Hinge because I wanted a. girlfriend, but we had to suffer through. a lot of failure to finally get to. success. Why does the world need another. dating app? I think it just needs one really that. works well.

I'm going to be completely honest. Much. of the reason why I never used dating. apps is I had no success. So, if I. wanted to be the world's worst dating. app user, what would I have to do? A lot. of filtered photos with you in. sunglasses or hanging out with a lot of. friends, one-word answers to your. prompts, just like everyone. And what. about serial daters? Some of us have models in our head that. are exceedingly narrow. They have to be. over 6 ft and need to work in this type. of job. And so, you go out and you're. just looking for some reason to say no. because it doesn't fit your model. Give. people more of a chance.

AI, the conversation around AI and. relationships has always been quite. pessimistic. Sex robots and stuff. Yeah, that's certainly not going to be. what Hinge is working on. The bigger leap though is to move much. closer to a matchmaker model and setting. up dates with a much higher likelihood. of success. It's happening already. It. used to take a thousand swipes in order. to get on a date and now about 50 likes. Have you seen any changes in the dating. culture? Yeah, in order to get on a. date, people need to know this. So,

Quick one. This is really, really. fascinating to me. On the back end of. our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9%. of you that watch this channel. frequently over the lifetime of this. channel haven't yet hit the subscribe. button. I just wanted to ask you a. favor. It helps this channel so much if. you choose to just subscribe. Helps us. scale the guests, helps us scale the. production, and it makes the show. bigger. So, if I could ask you for one. favor, if you've watched this show. before and you've enjoyed it and you. like this episode that you're currently. watching, could you please hit the. subscribe button? Thank you so much and.

I will repay that gesture by making sure. that everything we do here gets better. and better and better and better. That. is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do. we have a deal? Justin, what is your job title? And. founder and CEO of Hinge. And to. quantify what Hinge is and the impact it. has on the world, how many people use it. as a product, its reach, can you give me.

some color towards that? Uh, like I can. say that today we're setting up a date. about every 2 seconds. So, every other. second someone's going on a date because. of Hinge. Um, we've created. millions of relationships and it's I'd. say marriages at this point. The scale. is far beyond I think what I imagined. when I when I started this thing. I probably need to understand you a. little bit better because it's so. abundantly clear from all the CEOs that. I've interviewed that.

there's often a series of catalyst. moments that send them on the path. indirectly. I mean, it's like the first. domino that falls in their life that. brings them to be sat here today for for. us to be talking about it. What are. those first dominoes in your life that. fell? I I don't I think there are a number of. them that probably like ended up. defining my my life. I was an only. child. Um, had a entrepreneur father who. had a ran a small business. And um, and. my mom worked for my dad.

I was sort of naturally as a kid good at. math. I was good at computer science. Uh, I would spend my summers at nerd. camp. uh, going and learning how to like code. as a kid. And I will say addiction is. the last piece cuz I I wanted I like was. desperate to be cool, was desperate to. fit in. And that actually became like a huge. piece of it as well for me. In your. first year of university, you went to. see a drug and alcohol counselor. Is. that correct? I did. So, when I went to. college, you know, it was I would say. the overachieving part of me started to.

slip away and I just kind of just. doubled down on the uh, drinking and. drugs and partying. My freshman year, at. the end of my freshman year, I thought. to myself like, gosh, you know, like I. haven't been to bed sober since school. began. Like not one single night. And. maybe I have a problem. Like maybe. something's going on here. So, I I. voluntarily went in to see this drug and. alcohol counselor. It's like very sweet. woman named Jane. And she listened to me empathetically. and heard me out and she was like,

Justin, you know, I I think that you. probably have a pretty serious problem. with drugs and alcohol. I think that you. should definitely keep coming back and. seeing me and I think you should stop. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like that's that was like, what. are you talking about? I'm like a. 19-year-old kid. So, I just kind of. ignored that and went about the the. partying. Um, but I had some inkling at. that point that like probably something. was not good. You had to rehab eventually. I did. I had to spend my summer in rehab.

after my freshman year in order to even. come back to school because I had I. would I'd still get in trouble a lot at. like with campus safety or whatever, getting caught drinking or. uh, and I'd been written up so many. times that I actually got referred back. to that same drug and alcohol counselor. for an assessment. She's like, well, I've already actually assessed this kid. He's clearly has a problem. So, I had to. spend my summer in rehab in order to. even come back my sophomore year. So. many people I've spoken to had an. alcohol addiction at some point in their. life. Speak about the 12-step program.

and the role that that played in them. turning their lives around. Did you When did did you learn about the. 12-step program at all and did it help? I did and I would occasionally go to. meetings and they were like. people from the town. Like no one no no. one from like college was going to. these. I was literally only college. student. I did stop drinking the the and. the day that I graduated from college. And um, and 12-step programs was like a. a huge piece of of my recovery after.

that time. Why that day? I woke up that morning. after being out at a party the night. before. Was graduating that day. I'd. gotten a okay job in Washington D.C. where I was going to move in the in once. school ended. But I just remember thinking to myself. like. that the steering wheel of my life was. broken. That's kind of how I and I think. that gets back to your sort of. enslavement idea or that you just don't. have control anymore. Like I envisioned.

my life going like this direction. Like. I I wanted to have a big career. I. wanted to go make an impact in the. world. I wanted to have like deep. friendships. I wanted all these things. and yet every day it was like one more. drink. Right? One more drug and tomorrow. I'll like start putting my life. together. And I've been telling myself. that for years at that point. And I. remember thinking to myself like, I. don't know what the point of living is. if if like without drinking. But I'm going to try to find out.

And it was just like, how much longer am. I going to allow this to continue to to. go? Like I I. I didn't get the job that I wanted, right? I wanted I wanted to go work at a. you know, Goldman Sachs in banking, which is the and that's just like what. the I was a mathematical economics major. and that's what all like the top math. econ majors went and did. And. and I didn't I didn't get the job. I got. some like, you know, decent job at some. management consulting firm that no one's. ever heard of in Washington D.C. And uh, I'd lost the girl, which we.

haven't talked about Kate yet, but my I. had a girlfriend all through college and. I'd like lost her. It's just It's just. my life was like not headed in a good. direction. It was so clear and I just. viewed that as a moment to like change. it. When did you meet Kate? I met Kate the. basically like literally the day I got. out of rehab. I like got out of rehab at. 8:00 p.m. one night. in Louisville, Kentucky. I drove all. night back to school. And.

uh, and I woke up the next day and. decided to celebrate getting out of. rehab by going out and partying and. drinking. And. uh, Kate found me passed out in a. stairwell, like on the landing of a. stairwell. Uh, the first day of my. sophomore year. It was her first day of. school, first. day of her freshman year. Later in that year, we had a class. together. We started sitting together. We started getting to know each other. and we just had this incredible like. magnetic connection. When you reflect on meeting her and.

how you felt and all of those things. I. mean, you now uh, working in the. industry. When you look back, is there anything. that is consistent with, you know, all. the people that Hinge has brought. together today that happened in that. moment? Cuz, you know, you see on the. movies they say you'll feel this thing. in your belly and there'll be. butterflies and there'll be crazy, you. know, all this kind of stuff. What was your experience like? Did you. have butterflies? Did you know she would. they were the one? Um, I think I. I'm not sure it was like the moment I. saw Kate like I knew she was the one,

but I think the. our our like relationship really started. to build as we got to know each other. better. Um, so, it wasn't for me like. one of those like instantaneous like. this person is the person. It just grew really, really quickly as. we got to know each other better. Whether that spark is a good thing or a. bad thing, I think has been debated. I. know you had Logan, our our relationship. scientist on um, from Hinge and I think. the spark can sort of like burn out and. what you're looking for is really like a. nice slow burn. Within 2 years you had.

broken up. Uh, we'd broken up like we were on and. off. you know, six or seven times I think. during college. And then finally by the. end of college we'd really like gone our. separate ways. Once I gotten sober, um, I would think about reaching back out to. her all the time. But I just wouldn't. cuz I had enough sense to realize that. like I had probably like messed up this. girl's life enough and um, it just like. wasn't healthy and so I would. I remember being like a year two years.

sober, and I would like. you know, dial her number on my phone, and I would just like stare at it, and then I would just like hit the end. button, and. I just didn't feel. I just didn't feel like I was good for. her, and I and I just needed to stay. away. And when you ultimately end up reaching. out to her when she's living in London. and working in finance? Yeah, so I I. 4 years in, I'm sober, I'm at business school, and I. I.

finally I'm like, okay, I'm going to. like write her a letter, like an apology. letter, um. and see if we can reconnect, and I I. wrote her this letter, and she was. living in she'd moved to London at that. point. And she called me back the next day, and. she was with someone at the time, and she's like, well, I'm going to be. home for Christmas time, so maybe I can. see you at Christmas time. And. then she called me back the next day, and she's like, listen, I just if I see. you, I don't know what's going to. happen, and.

I just. uh. I have a stable life now, I have a. partner, we just bought a flat, like I. just can't. And so I was just totally. heartbroken, cuz I really thought in the. back of my mind like someday we'd I just. felt like we were like meant to be. together, and I thought like one day. we're we're going to end up back. together, and I think in that moment I. realized like, wow, I've really messed. this up, like there's no there's no. going back. You were at Harvard at the time. Yeah. You're single. Mhm.

You're sober. Which makes it hard to meet people, I. guess. Precisely. I mean, that's the thing is I. is I. um both it was very special with her, and also I really had trouble meeting. other other people. Like I really relied. on drugs and alcohol as a crutch, and. then when I graduated, I threw myself. into work, and then I but then I arrive. at business school, where I think by the. way we're there to like study business, but it's like a huge party atmosphere, and like everyone connects around. drinking and and partying, and I just. couldn't.

it was like. just too hard for me to be around any of. that. Also hard for me to meet new people. I. mean, that's the case for so many of us. today. So many people who much of the. reason it feels like they continue to. drink and do those things which they. don't necessarily love is because it's. almost unavoidable if you want to it. seems unavoidable if you want to. socialize and be. not be perceived as a weirdo. Yeah, and just the whole culture and the. whole like the it was just all revolved. around drinking. So it's it was just. constantly saying no, constantly saying, no, thanks, I don't drink, like.

Is this at all correlated? You know, you're in that situation where you're. you've given up drinking, you're a bit. heartbroken. Does this also. explain why you were so compelled to do. something in the dating space? There was a business plan like a. business school like. business plan competition, and so I was. working on like a few ideas for that. And nothing really hit. Like I was. trying to work on I had like various. little silly ideas, and I tried to work. on them, but it always just felt like.

homework, and I just like wasn't getting. much traction. And this was kind of shortly after. everything had happened with Kate, and. she'd, you know, told me in so many. words that like. it was time to move on. And. there was this last chance dance party. happening at at Harvard, where people. were going to like list all their. crushes, and then if two people like. listed each other, they would like let. you know right before the dance. So this. was like a moment of like, okay, like. we're heading towards the end of school.

I think it was around Valentine's Day, and so this is like your last chance. your second year. If there's anyone that. you had a crush on, this is like your. moment to find out. I was actually like pretty excited about. this, cuz like I again I was like so. awkward. Like I didn't know how to like. connect with people or meet new people. I just like I didn't know how to do that. without the crutch of of alcohol and. drugs, and I was walking to class one. day with the with the um student body. president, this guy Brett, and he was like, yeah, we actually. decided to scrap the whole thing. It was. just too complicated. Like a thousand. people all listing each other. Like how. are we going to manage all the.

you know, like too hard. Like we just. scrapped that whole thing. I I I went to class, I started sitting. there, I started thinking, and I was. like, I bet I could just like build this. really quick on Facebook. Like I I I. used to code. I like knew how these kind. of things got worked, and Facebook had. recently opened up their API for canvas. apps like FarmVille and things like. that. I was like, you could just like go. through and just check your friends that. you liked, and you can just build. something like this really quick on. Facebook. So I enlisted a friend, um. her her name is Francis, and we got.

together, and we built this thing, um. where people could like list their. crushes on Facebook, and it would tell. you if two people matched, and we. launched it, and it made a bunch of matches, and it. was fun, and people had like a good. time, but. then. it was. you know, you find out if you have a. crush, you either do or you don't, and. then everyone's done with it. But the idea then started to to like. percolate in my mind like, what if you. could actually introduce people to their. friends of friends? Because at the time.

there was there were online dating. sites, but no one my age used them. There was a lot of stigma around it, cuz. it was like a long arduous process you. did on desktop computers, you answered. like deep questions about yourself, you. paid a lot of money usually to use them. And the idea of like creating something. like really simple and easy that would. just connect you to friends of friends. suddenly just like popped in my mind, and I don't know how to describe it. I. just like I was so excited about this. idea. I was just convinced this is going. to be the future of how people were. going to date, and I like couldn't stop.

working on it. And to set the scene. there a little bit, this is a time which. is hard to remember where there's like. OKCupid and match.com, but there's not. like mobile dating apps. Right. That's. exactly right. There were no nothing was. mobile, and nothing no one really used. it, or if you used it, you didn't really. talk about it. Like people my age just. like didn't use or talk about online. dating services. That was just not a. thing. The term dating app was not even. a term yet. Do you think that's it? Cuz I so many. people. ask me the question about how to know.

which idea to pursue. Many entrepreneur types, creatives have. lots of ideas. They have a shelf full of. them. Yeah. Um. how do we know which one is the one. worth pursuing? I I can only speak to my experience. Like I don't know what the right what. the right answer is, but I will say that. when I was I had other ideas that were. interesting to me like intellectually. Like, yeah, like this is a good idea, um. but it just didn't hit me in my heart, and I would I would like try to work on. it, but like I said, it felt like it.

felt like doing homework. Like, okay, I'll like force myself to work on this, but it just wasn't. I don't know. And then when the idea for. Hinge hit me, I don't I just don't know how to. describe it except to say like it it was. like it like infected me, and this this. this service this app was like going to. come out of me no no matter what, and. it's like I like was almost possessed to. have to work on it. But I think there was a the the magic of. me being open and like thinking about. ideas and trying to work on ideas, and. then I was like open, and then when the. right idea hit,

it almost didn't even feel like a. choice. Like I just had to work on this. So many people have the idea, so many. people feel infected by their belief in. that idea, but then. the vast majority will. be. incarcerated by fear and. you know, loads of naysayers telling. them, you can't make an a dating app. What the hell is that? Yeah. Which is exactly the feedback that I. got, by the way. Like I entered it in. the business plan competition. We were, you know, we didn't place at all. We. were told like this is a horrible idea.

I wrote a paper on it for our class. They told me it was a horrible idea. I. um I had friends telling me it was a. horrible idea. I would later try to raise money, and. VCs would tell me it was a horrible like. everyone was like there was very little. positive feedback I was getting on the. idea for Hinge. I just had this. thesis that if you could make a a dating. service that was stigma-free, if you. could make something that was really fun. and easy and lightweight, then young. people would use it. I would I would I'd. always hear that the dating market is. full, it's saturated. This is what VCs.

would tell me when I would try to raise. money. They'd be like, match.com owns. this market, you'll never be able to. beat them. And I remember thinking to myself like, it's not how could you say a market is. saturated? Like I don't I almost know no. one who uses dating services. Like it's. not saturated. You just have to fix the. problem why people don't use it, and. people don't use it because it it has. stigma to it. We we can't remember that. Yeah. This this generation can't. remember that there was a stigma around. dating on the internet. In fact, what's. so funny is as you said the word stigma,

I said to myself, what stigma? And I. thought and then I thought back to my. childhood, and and I remember the. what I thought of people that used. match.com. Yeah. Lonely weirdos. Totally. And that was definitely that. was that's how people. that's how people thought about it in. 2011. It was just not. you know, the iPhone had just come out a. few years ago. The App Store was. relatively new. Yeah, and people did not. meet strangers on the internet to go. date. That was just weird. So when did. it go from.

Facebook to an app? Uh so we started working on it. It was. originally this yeah, Facebook canvas. app, and. that was 2011 to 2012, and um. but it was really having trouble. getting people to adopt this thing. I. was not a good product designer, not a. good brand. It was originally called. Secret Agent Cupid. It would uh. introduce you to friends of friends, but it was really a complex.

user interface. You'd like answer. questions about your friends. There were. like little rankings. Like it was try to. be really social and like show you which. of your friends are most in demand. It. had like all these different components. to it. It was like way overcomplicated. People would come in, and they like. wouldn't understand like, why am I. answering questions about my friends? Like, what's this? I'm here to date. Around the end of 2012, I'd raised a. little bit of money from just like. angels and friends and family, like. $100,000 or so. We're running out of money, not making a. lot of progress. I made the call around. Thanksgiving. I got together with my.

team and I was like, we just need to. start over from scratch. Let's throw. this whole thing out. Mobile is the. future. That's more things are trying to come. out on the App Store around this time. So, let's redesign it for mobile and. let's make it just like a dead simple. We'll just you connect your Facebook. account, we'll show you a photo, you. know, their age, like one or two lines. about them, and then you just say yes or. no, are you interested in this person? We had literally like 2 and 1/2 months. left of cash to like tear everything. down, rebuild it from scratch, and then.

take our remaining money and throw a. giant launch party in Washington D.C. With your remaining money? Yeah, that's. it. Literally took our last $25,000 and. threw a giant open bar party in D.C. And. you had to download the app to get in. We had submitted our app to the App. Store. with what we thought was like plenty of. time, about 2 weeks. Um, and App Store. review times were typically like just a. couple days at that point. And then a few days go by, we don't hear. anything back. A week goes by, we still. haven't heard anything back.

Uh, I started trying to reach out to. like the head of the App Store, but no. one who they don't care I'm like some. random kid like with a app idea. No one would return my calls. It is now the night before the launch. party and we still have no we don't have. actually have an app to launch. So, I. like literally have like my last. $25,000 spent on this launch party with. no app. I remember being. literally like sitting we had a little. co-working space and that night I was. just like sitting on the floor like.

covered up my head in the in my jacket. and just crying on the floor thinking. like, wow, these last 2 years have been. for like nothing. I've worked so hard. and I'm going to launch an app tomorrow. there's no App Store like there's 2,000. people are coming and there's no app. And then I went home that night and um, woke up the next morning and somehow. miraculously. uh, the app had been approved in the App. Store. And so, we had the party that night. 2,500 people came. They all saw each.

other using the app. The next day people we made more matches. than we'd made in the entire history of. the app up until that point. And they had to download it to get in. They had to download it to get in. And that helped overcome I think you had. to like jump-start the stigma cuz we had. a lot of like the very like the cool. people in the social scene in Washington. D.C. coming and all downloading it in. front of each other and talking about. it. And so, the fact that it was like. really really dead simple and the fact. that everyone saw each other using it, I. think like started to like jump-start.

and get over that stigma problem. And. then we had like 400 people log in the. next day and we're like, okay, wow, if. you 400 people on their own came in. I. mean, up until that point it was such a. like literally a trickle of users coming. into our like little app. Like I would. I'd I remember I would like sit there. and like look at the logs and people. like a user would come in and like, oh, okay, like a there's a user using the. app. And then we're like, okay, then he. just clicked this button and like then. he like passed and then and then he. would leave and I'm like, okay, wait for. the next user to come in like sitting. just like watching the logs. So, hundreds of people coming the next.

day, few hundred more the next day, and then. it just started to like build and build. and build after that. Was it like a snowball effect? Yeah, it really was. And and once once. we'd hit it with the with the product, it started to spread through word of. mouth. Then people in D.C. started to tell. their friends in New York and then we. started to build up a waitlist there and. then people in New York told their. friends in San Francisco and they would. like build the waitlist up there. And then we would start opening cities. one at a time once we felt like we had. enough liquidity. And how would you open. those cities? Was it the same.

We'd throw another launch party. Like. no, literally my life was just like. throwing launch parties in cities like. we would we would, you know, from Boston. and San Francisco and um, New York and. L.A. We were just like. I remember 2012 well and there was. that was kind of the golden age of. apps in a way. I remember cuz we worked. a lot quite a lot on um, on apps back then and uh, there wasn't many apps. The App Store. was was grow felt like it was growing.

very quickly. I was, you know, people. were discovering lots of new apps all. the time. Feel like people are. discovering less apps at the moment. I. don't know if that's true or not, but it. just felt like that was kind of the app. boom moment. So, things like a launch. party I can you know, I can see how. those things would work then, but I I. question whether people listening to. this right now that have got an app and. they've got $25,000 for a launch party. and like that's that's what solves all. their problems. Probably not. Yeah. So interesting. And then Tinder around. that time starts to emerge a bit bit. foot further on, right? Yeah, right about that time. So, right. around the time we threw that launch.

party, I think Tinder had launched just. a couple months prior out in L.A. So, almost the exact same time. We had a. very similar model. They took off hugely. and we started to grow as well. In fact, their growth helped our growth because. it would like the category was emerging. and now people were like um, seeing. Tinder and Tinder was a. was an app that was all about location. and ours was all about friends of. friends. And that was really the the. main difference. But, as a result, people viewed Hinge as. like this sort of like.

more serious intent dating app because. it was friends of friends, people you. meet at a house party or dinner or. wedding, whereas like the other one was. a little bit more of like a casual. reputation and like meeting at a club. And as a result, all of a sudden the VCs. who were telling me there's no way this. market's totally saturated, now I was no. longer begging for money. I was like. turning away. There were people were. trying to send like like trying to raise. around at that point. Um, we went from. like. you know, begging for scraps to like. raising almost a $20 million round where.

I was turning away money because I just. couldn't take anymore. So, it really. that changed the game. And was it a straight line up from. there? Huh. Uh, no, definitely not. So, we had some good success in 2013, 2014. 2015 growth started to level out. Um, Tinder had definitely gotten successful. Beat us at the game of like overcoming. stigma. Like. that it was cool to use. It was cool it. was it was quick. It was easy. It was.

fun. Ours was just like. a Tinder. copy that was friends of friends, but we. weren't we were like the growth just. like wasn't there and um, and more. importantly though, around that time there was an article. that came out in Vanity Fair called like. the dawn of the dating apocalypse. It. was all about how dating apps had. destroyed dating culture and romance and. and Hinge was featured like. pretty heavily in that article. I always remember just thinking like, gosh, this is not what I.

like I built this because I like wanted. a girlfriend. Like this is not what I. what I wanted to build from a like a. values perspective. I I remember going out with my. my head of marketing at that time, her. name was Katie, and I was I was about to. head home for Thanksgiving and we sat at. a little cafe in New York and. I I was just telling her like, gosh, I I. like. I wish I could just start over from. scratch. Like this is not the company I. want to build. This is not what I want. to do. And she's like, well, I mean, you're the CEO. Like what's stopping. you? I went home and I thought about that.

and, you know, nothing was stop like what was stopping. me? We just raised a big round. We had. resources. And so, uh, I decided to reboot the company. again. So, we first reboot 2012. Uh, this reboot let go of half the company. and then threw out the old code base and. built something new from scratch that. would be about. really helping people who wanted to find. their person with like a long-term. relationship brand. and totally changed the user interface.

and the profiles and the whole flow and. design it for people who actually like. really want to find their person. If you hadn't have had that interview. with Deborah from cafe.com Mhm. before, right? Yeah. Do you think you would have made that. decision? Tell me about that interview. with Deborah from cafe.com and how. changed changed things for you. So, in. 2014, someone reached out to me, her name was. Deborah, and she had downloaded Hinge.

She lived in New York. And the very first person that she that. like we suggested to her, she liked and. matched with and then fallen in love. with. And so, she'd reached out and was. like, how did you like I want to learn. more about you, want to learn about your. company. We were just, you know, we were. getting popular in New York, but not. hugely popular. So, we met up for an interview one day. in Madison Square Park near my office. and. um, and I you know, I didn't have my I like. it was dumb luck. Like I don't know the.

like the first person that happened to. show up on her app. Like we didn't we. didn't. it was just we were lucky. But, as we chatted, um, you know, kind of a. standard interview, at the very end of. the interview, we were getting up and. she's like, you know, one last question, have you ever been in love? And I was. like, well, once a long time ago, but I, you know, I. just didn't realize it until it was too. late. And Deborah turns off the tape recorder. and she's like, listen, I have to tell. you a story. And she tells me. the story of of how actually she sort of.

had this misconnection moment. She. wasn't with someone that she had met. much younger and they had found each. other all these years later and realized. they should have been together. And she was like, you know, you don't have to make the same mistake. I did. Like you can still be with the. one. You just have to do something. dramatic. You have to just go over there. and like pour your heart out and like. put yourself on the line. And I was like, listen, lady, like. you know, it's been almost 8 years since. I've even seen her. It's it's kind of. over. There's there's no way.

That said, I was about to head over to. the um, launch party for Hinge in London. and I thought, okay, like. I'll just shoot her one last note. And. so, I reached out to her and I said, hey, I'm going to be in London. Would love 15 minutes just say hi and. goodbye. It's just weird to think that. we're never going to see each other. again. And she wrote back and she was like, uh for the first time, so and and now. another 4 years. And.

uh. she was like, "Listen, I don't live in. London anymore. I live in Switzerland, but. um I'll be around this weekend and um. happy to hop on the phone.". So, I. like got that message. I went to the. airport. I got the I got a ticket to. Switzerland. I got on a plane to Zurich. And um. and she. reached out the next day. She's like, "Hey, I'm around if you want to chat.". And I'm like, "Great, cuz I'm going. through customs in Zurich right now.". And she agreed to meet me at a little.

cafe. And uh we sat down with each other. And. I I think at that time I. you know, part of me thought like I. really want the girl back. Like this is. it. And part of me thought like. it's been 8 years. Like I've changed so. much as a person. Like I'm sober now. I'm like running this company. Like. she's. with someone else now. And by the way, it was literally like a month away from. getting married at that point. She was. She had a fiance. She had a fiance, yeah. And and to be married in a month.

Like. uh so. like on the verge of getting married. So, I thought we'd see each other and. kind of just like. laugh it off and glad we saw each other. and and you know, I just did I honestly. didn't know what was going to happen. It. was like it felt. but there was this hope in me that like, "Wow, maybe she really is the one. Maybe. we'll like realize it." And we sat down. at this little cafe and um. and it was just like. uh. I think we both felt like an incredible. amount of.

that connection that we'd always had. And we sat and we we talked for like 7. or 8 straight hours in this cafe. Never. even got up to get a coffee. And. at the end of that conversation she's. like, "I think I'm calling off the wedding.". And um. And so. uh about a week later she moved out of. Zurich and moved from. um back into back to New York into my. like 300-sq-ft apartment in the West. Village. And.

and my. and this is a long way of getting back. to your question, which is like how does. this relate to Hinge and would I have. done the reboot? Because. here I am and I've like gotten. the person. Like this is the person that. I've always want like wanted. Like I. finally got her back. And it was totally. amazing for. like a month or 2 or 3 months maybe max. And then the honeymoon period ended and. we're two people living in this little. tiny apartment together in New York who.

haven't seen each other in 8 years. And we've got to like start figuring. each other out. And it wasn't perfect. And. the part of me like I would have if I. were just dating this person, I would. have run, right? I would have like cut. it off and been like, "Okay, like not. the right person. Like. it's not it's not perfect like I. imagined it was going to be." But she'd. called off this life. She like cut She. you know, she'd left a her person. She'd. left um. her whole existence over there. So, I.

couldn't just like break up with her. And that's when I think the real work of. the relationship started and like real. intimacy and vulnerability and like love. started to form. And I realized like I. would have just passed over this person. And I think it just totally changed my. my mentality of how. a dating app should be designed. Because. I think up until that point I thought. you know, it's a it's a numbers game. You just got to like get through enough. people and once you find your person, then it's. then it's kind of happily ever after.

after that. And. realizing that like how many people, you. know, we all must just skate right past. because we don't because we're not. vulnerable, because they're not. vulnerable and we failed to like make. that connection. And so I wanted to like rebuild an app. if it were really for a relationships, um you just it would be a very different. kind of app. You would have to like have. people slow down. You would have to have. people be more vulnerable. You'd have to. people share about themselves and put. themselves on the line a bit more in.

order to form that initial connection. And so that was the foundation and sort. of like the design principles for. what we wanted to. build with the new Hinge. Fairy tale endings are made for movies. because there's a lot of work that. happens when the credits after the. credits roll. Totally. Yeah, we were just getting started. I. had no idea. And you also when you talk about this. new vision for Hinge, it's quite. idealistic. You know, this idea of just. being able to create an app where people.

slow down and they give more information. and then more vulnerable. It tends to be. the case that your ideal scenario for. how humans behave isn't actually how. they want to behave. Right. Especially. these days because we're all we all. believe things should be like quick and. easy. And it's not quick and easy. You get you. get out what you put in. And so we were. always fighting this balance of like. what people are willing to do and what. they should do. You know, and and we. were trying to to like we could of. course build an app that's just like.

makes it like what people think that. they want, which is like quick and easy. and fun. But you have to slow people down, get. them to put in a little bit more effort. And it's a real. it's a real balance of of like. getting people to be. vulnerable as much as at least they can. tolerate. And because the more that they are, the. more effective their experience is, the. better chance that they have of finding. their person. How was that received when. you come up with this new vision for. Hinge, which is going to be slower, much. more meaningful, and much more deeper,

and really based on forming long-term. connections? How was that received by. people? Uh. I think in theory. it was. it was. celebrated, right? In theory I think. people are like, "Yes, the world needs. this kind of this kind of new thing. Like we definitely want something that's. like a little bit less like fast food. and more like. you know, a nice nutritious meal when it. comes to dating.". You know, it was it was still hard to. really get people like they like it in. theory, but then they're like, "Wait, I. have to fill out like three prompts? Like wait, I don't just swipe on people.

I have to like like something about. them? Um wait, if I like someone, they're just going to see it? Like. you're just going to tell them? I have. to add a comment and like say something. about them?". So, it was like a lot to get people's. head around who are used to something. that was quite different. But it was. effective. And that's what mattered the. most. And you know, the that was a it. was such a huge mindset and shift for us. to stop thinking about user engagement. and user retention and all these like. classic metrics that you know, VCs look.

for when they look at like social media. apps. And to just think, are we getting people. out on more good dates or not? And. that's going to be our North Star metric. and we'll grow through word of mouth. because people are actually going to go. on good dates and they're going to tell. their friends about it. And so that was. our North Star. And so we didn't worry so much about. like all those engagement metrics and. you know, we didn't there weren't as. many matches and there wasn't as much. whatever engagement on the app. It was. actually way more efficient and. effective at getting people out on good. dates. And so we launched this new.

thing. Our user numbers actually started. to decline initially from the old. version of the app. And what about money? Yeah, and so right about that time we're. starting to we've burned through all. that cash in order to build this new app. and we're starting to run out. And so I. went out to start fundraising again and. telling the story of like, "Look at. these. like we were way more effective now. People love the product.". But on the other hand, we used to have I. don't know at the time 400, 500,000. users and now we're down to like. 100,000, 150,000 users. And that's a.

pretty tough. story to tell to venture capitalists. And But you're shrinking. Yeah, we're. shrinking. But. But we're going to grow because look at. how amazing these and no one like really. bought that story. And I was flying. around everywhere talking to every VC. And I could talk to you know, at that. point Hinge has gotten popular enough. that any VC would like take my meeting. and talk to me. But it was just I probably had 50 or 60. VC meetings and like not a single not a. single yes. But at right on that time we.

also started talking to um Match Group. They saw they could see what I saw. They. saw, "Wow, this is actually something. that's different. It's differentiated. and it has real promise.". And so when we were down to like once. again like days of cash, while like a. week or two left of cash, we negotiated. a a deal for like an initial investment. from them. That would set the stage for them to. eventually acquire the company. And between 2016.

and 2019 when they acquired the company, what was growth like? Uh it was slow at first. 2016, 2017 we. were kind of still figuring out the it. was a completely new model. And so we. were figuring out how to really make. that new model work. And we were like. you know, um tuning it. And around 2018 we felt like, "Okay, we've really started to like now people. are really starting to love this app. It's starting to really grow through. word of mouth.". And and then we started to. like pour on marketing money and at that. point it was showing like how much that.

could accelerate the growth. And that's. when Match Group invested. Hinge Labs. Mhm. What is Hinge Labs? I don't believe. any other dating apps have something. like Hinge Labs. Yeah, and it's all part. of this idea that we want to build like. we're just focus on user effectiveness. And does this actually get people out on. good dates? And a huge piece of the you. know, a dating app is is relatively. unique. It's not just a piece of. technology. It's. you know, what what it's the people that.

are on there and how they're behaving. and the technology. Like that's your. experience as a user. It's not just like. we it no matter how good we get at. product and product design or whatever. Like we have to control for the. behaviors of other people and making. sure that we have the right people on. who are behaving the right way. You. know, we can only guide them so much. with um. you know, UX. We also have to like kind. of coach people and guide people and. teach people how to become better. daters. And so, Hinge X or I'm sorry, Hinge Labs. was developed to sort of study daters.

who are successful, study daters who are. not successful, figure out what are the. patterns, what do we see, and how can we. help level up everyone to become better. and more successful daters. And so, Hinge Labs really does, you know, deep. dive research studies on just what is. what makes daters successful, um and and gives us the fuel to be able. to um. build better product or build user. guides, things like that.

So, what makes daters successful? Makes dating successful? Yeah, like, you. know, I've got friends that seem to be. successful at dating and friends that. are just those prolific serial daters. that go on 100 dates a year and never. seem to make any progress. Yeah. And. also, are there like categories of. daters that you talk about? You must. have got like categories like the serial. dater that's never going to be. successful. They're just doing it for. the fun of it. Yeah. like one-hit wonder. We We definitely. have different profiles, but we Anytime. we try to like just put people into. discrete categories, it never works cuz.

people are complex and they have. different Everyone's story is kind of. unique. And so, it's hard to put people. just like into buckets. Um. and. there are I think some general. principles that I've learned. and we've learned through Hinge Labs. And, you know, again, you had Logan here. relatively recently. And if if people. are interested, they should definitely. go listen to her podcast because with. you because it's like a master class in. how to become successful in dating. Yeah. But, I would say like the more that you. are willing to be.

honest and vulnerable and real, like the. quicker you can find those connections. and the higher quality connections that. you're going to get. I think that's the kind of upshot and. the way that we really try to. design Hinge to help people maximize. their success on that front. Why does that matter at a human level, being honest and vulnerable? Uh I think. two reasons. One is that you get to an. accurate assessment more quickly of.

someone, right? Like, if you're trying. to be pretend to be someone you're not. or you're just trying to be cool or get. a lot of likes or whatever, people aren't seeing the real you. And. they're going to eventually see the real. you. So, the faster that you can just. put like be clear about who you are and. what you're looking for and what you. want and what's not perfect about you, then. I think the faster you're going to find. someone who's like, "Yes, this is the. type of person that I want to be with.". And you're going to avoid all those. people that were attracted to the kind. of veneer that you'd put up, but then.

they get to know the real you and then. that's not And then I'd say the second. piece is that it gives people like. hooks to grab onto. Like, there's just. nothing to talk about with someone who's. perfect and and invulnerable and. invincible. Like, what do you like what. do you have to say? Like, we connect. over the the cracks of and the little. imperfections. And that's how we connect. and relate to one another. And so, you'll form a much better and deeper and. quicker bond with someone when you open. up like that versus try to. impress.

Okay, what about this then? So, if I. wanted to be the world's worst dater, if I wanted to be the world's worst um. most unsuccessful Hinge user or dating. app user more generally, what would I have to do? Uh So, I've got your first point, which. is about be really inauthentic. Pretend. I'm perfect and use fake photos or you. just portray myself in a way that's not. authentic. of like filtered photos with you in. sunglasses or hanging out with a lot of. friends, one-word answers to your. prompts, you know, just like everyone or.

no one or wait for likes to come to you. I think like that that's the kind of. mentality they're trying to get people. out of. We want to We want people to. like fill out deeper Like, that's so. much of our work is like helping people. select better photos that show more of. their personality, help people answer. prompts, which are these short questions designed. to get you into a conversation, and answer them thoughtfully uh to. uh be really thoughtful with your likes. because the more thoughtful you are with. your likes, the better our algorithm. gets cuz we actually understand who you.

like and who you don't like. So, don't just like. you know. No, because then we can't we. can't learn your taste, right? And we're. not going to get closer and closer to. the type of person that you like. Okay, interesting. And what about these um. these serial daters? Cuz I've got some. friends that are like those serial. daters, literally 100 dates a year. And. I'll sit with them and we'll chat and. they'll tell me, "Oh, yeah, I've been on. like three dates this week, etc." For. those people, I'd love to be able to. give offer them some advice. Thinking of. one one of my friends in particular, who I know was is going to watch this.

Yeah. I mean, I was one of those people, right? I mean, I was a person who um. uh. you know, constantly was I wouldn't. necessarily just go on a whole lot of. first dates, but I would go on a whole. I'd had a whole lot of. two- to six-week relationships. And um. and then as soon as I would find. something. quote-unquote wrong or I wouldn't feel. good in the relationship, then I was. like, "Well, this doesn't work. Like, this is wrong." Cuz I think I had such a.

I such a fantasy about what a good. relationship looked like. I like my. model was totally broken. And I think. for so many of us, we're like we're. trying to fit. like a model in our head. with the real with the reality that. we're trying to like match this reality. to like some model in our head about. what a good relationship is or should. look like. And I think my model was like. you know, it stays sexy and fun every. single time we're together. Um we don't. fight. There's never any You know,

there's like I I think I just had this. like very happily ever after moment in. my mind. And. so, I skipped over and passed over so. much because it just didn't fit this. like model I had in my head. And I think. some of us have. models in our head that are exceedingly. narrow. They have to be like over 6 ft. and they need to work in this type of. job and they need to be like this. And. so, you go out and you're just looking. for some reason to say no because it. doesn't fit your model. And I think the biggest thing is for us.

to. um. like change the model in our head that. we're that like of like what we're. trying to look for. and like widen that aperture a bit and. give people more of a chance and like. see things through a bit more. People have to. um people this high height thing you. mentioned, the 6 ft thing, seems to be a. lot of conversation because. I think the vast majority of people. the the vast majority of women, I.

imagine, would want someone that's more. than 6 ft. Is that correct? Uh no, I don't I don't know if that's. actually true. But, people like someone. taller than them. Taller than them, okay. Yeah. Um. 6 ft seems to. just one example. I mean, I don't know. about the height, but I think it's just. the point is like we have very specific. and narrow models. And I think a lot of. people who end up in successful. relationships say, Mhm. "This isn't uh you know, if I were. making a shopping list and like you. know, writing down all my like little. features that I'm looking for in a.

partner, like this person didn't. necessarily. that like I would have I would have. missed this person." There's a website, isn't there? I can't remember the name. of it, but you go on there and you say. what you're looking for in a partner and. it shows you your statistical. probability of finding that person. Okay. Yeah, I don't know about that, but. yeah, I think if people saw that It's. horrifying. Yeah, it'd be pretty. horrifying like how you're cutting out. 98% of people based on your criteria. The salary, the height, the way um. the race you put on there. And then it.

shows you it goes like you have a 0.0%. chance of finding this person. right. Um and you obviously want them to. be single as well as another criteria. Um which I find interesting. One of the. things people say about dating apps and. like dating app companies and founders. and CEOs is they want people to stay. single because then you've got more. customers. Mhm. And surely, if every if you have. this metric where people are becoming. um. they're getting married, you're losing. customers. Yeah. So, our belief on that, which has. always been um.

we we like our motto our our tagline is. designed to be deleted. And that came. from, by the way, we were working with a branding agency. and. they were like, "What's Hinge's. stick? You know, like what makes you. different? Like, you're Tinder, but. what?" And I was like, "I don't There's. no gimmick. Like, there's no like, 'Oh, we're Tinder, but like X or Tinder, but. Y.'" Like, every single part of the app. is like designed to be different and. like designed to help get people out on.

great dates. And that's kind of where this like. designed to be deleted, which by the way. was like there's so much debate. internally about that cuz it's so. it sounds so technical like design like. in your own tagline like designed to be. like that and it's people won't. understand it. But, we kind of went with it because. it's the only thing that really. represented what makes Hinge. um. really different. And what does that mean? And it means. that do we get people out on great dates. or not? And that's what's driven every. design decision and why Hinge looks. different than all the other apps is.

like that optimization function. And. so, in terms of a business model, the belief is that like we will grow. through word of mouth, which is the most. effective and efficient and. cost-effective way to grow. if we just create more great dates and. more relationships. And. the thesis is like as long as there are. single people in the world, which I'm. pretty sure there are plenty of single. people left in the world, that they'll. want to use Hinge, which feels more like. a utility that's truly effective versus. like perhaps what something that feels. like a little bit more like a game.

Since the. company started, have you seen any. changes in the dating environment, the. dating landscape, dating culture? Yeah. Yeah, Gen Z, for lack of a better term, has different dating patterns. I think. in some sense, like when I started. Hinge, people were There was a lot of. stigma around dating apps because um. uh people just didn't use them at all. Then I feel like everyone started to use. them and it became sort of the default. way to meet people. And I think this is.

why we've actually like Hinge's growth. has accelerated so much even recently. Is that there actually is a desire to. move away from the sort of like quick. hit, superficial Swipe, swipe, swipe. Yeah, yeah, and moving to something. that's. People are willing to share more about. themselves and be more like I think like. Gen Z's generally. willing to like, you know, it's like the. Tik Tok instead of the Instagram kind of. feel of. being vulnerable, putting yourself out. there. You don't have to look so.

polished and so perfect. And that's. actually great for. for. uh dating cuz that's exactly the kind of. ethos that we actually need for people. to be successful. And Hinge, as I was reading, is got. these sort of five first principles. What is the um current company mission. statement? Well, so. the we want to foster intimate. connection to create a less lonely. world. And. a lot of social We'll call them like. social networks. They started social.

networks. We're also I think had a similar. mission. Like you wanted to get you. connected to the people who matter most. to you. And they've all kind of like. like they all became social media. companies instead because it turns out. that like brands and influencers and. outrageous people are just more. interesting than your friends. And it's. easier to get you to spend more time in. app and more time looking at ads if we. like show you much more sensational. content than. than like. you know, real um.

like creating real moments of connection. with the people who matter most to you. And that's what I wanted to drive home. like really clearly in our mission is. that. like Hinge at its core, even if we were. expanding new business lines or do. something in the future, like we are a. company about intimate connection, about. one-to-one deep connections between. people and we don't ever want to deviate. from that as our core cuz it's really. what the world needs right now. First principle two, radical trust. So. you've got designed to be deleted.

Number two is radical trust. Yeah. Which. means? So radical trust is our. commitment to And so these cultural. principles that you're reading off came. from this book um called How We Do. Things. And so when I when we rebooted. the company in 2015, beginning of 2016. we um. at that point I didn't think about. company culture. Kind of thought oh, it. was just like. it's just we're a bunch of people in a. room trying to solve problems. Like. that's And we were only 30 people. So.

culture just kind of emerges naturally. among that group of people. It really. rotates around the founder. But I didn't. think consciously about it. When we did that reboot, we we let go of. half the company. We took the remaining. half and we went and did an offsite and. we did a a breakdown and a really had. like some really honest at times tearful. conversations about like what had gone. wrong. What did we do right? What What didn't. we do right? What do we wish we had done. better? Um and a. a lot of them were of course like.

product decisions. Like oh, we focused. too much on the competition and copying. the competition and not focusing enough. on our customer. But a lot of it was like how we operated. as a company. And coming out of that, we actually. started a like open source Google Doc. that listed our kind of what we believed. and how we think sh- things should. should get done around Hinge. And originally it was just like a long. doc of just all kinds of principles. It. was me just trying to like. put my management algorithm.

like down and on piece of paper so that. everyone was very clear about how I made. decisions and how we should all make. decisions and how we should prioritize. and what we should do. So then eventually as Hinge got a little. bit bigger and we started to you know, have more than 100 employees. that model didn't make as much sense. anymore and we put it in this book. called How We Do Things, which was at. that point just a list of. all our lesson It's really about It's a. story of our lessons learned. It's like. we did it all the wrong ways. and that led us to learn to do it the. right way.

And so that's where just to give the. context on where these principles came. from. So designed to be deleted was like. we used to focus on the competition and. focusing on like what features our. competitors had. When we did the reboot, we just focused. on. you know, making our one metric. getting people out on great dates and I. like prohibited people from looking at. the competition. I didn't want any of. their apps on my phone. Like I just just. focus on. novel innovation in service of our. customer. Radical trust was about. a lot of the decision-making was like.

very top-down. and um and I think people felt. disempowered. They felt a lot of. whiplash and radical trust was about how. do you push decision-making down to the. front lines? And how do you empower people with the. information that they need? So have a. lot of transparency from the top down. about like where we are as a business, what our needs are, what our problems. are so that people on the front lines. can go solve it. Love the leap. Love the leap is this idea that small. incremental optimizations can be can be.

great, but real uh. the the things that matter require like. a level of um a much bigger innovation. leaps and we have to not be afraid of. failure because when you make those much. bigger innovation leaps, a lot of them. like won't of course land or you have to. I think even more importantly trudge. through a whole lot of failure to. finally get to success. I think there's. a culture of like that comes from people. especially who have worked in tech.

companies and much larger tech companies. of like oh, you just test and iterate. Like you test this thing and then if it. works, great. And then if it doesn't, then you just like move on and try the. next thing. I think the difference. between that and then the way that like. often a founder and entrepreneur will. think is like I believe in this thesis. and I'm going to get there no matter. what and if I had like. I mean think about how many iterations. of Hinge I had to eventually get to the. successful Hinge. If I just been like. oh, I'm thinking about building a dating. app. I'll throw something out there and. see if people use it. Oh gosh, they're not really using it. I. guess a dating app's not a good idea. I'll go like build a.

you know, whatever uh a car hailing app. You have to like trudge through that. So. that's Love the Leap is like you have to. suffer through a lot of failure to make. like the big innovation leaps. Do you see a variance in even your team. members, but other people you work with, they're biased towards failure? They're. at different failure appetites. Yeah, and it gets harder and harder as you get. bigger and and bigger and you're. fighting against like larger cultural. inertia. Like and this is very human by. the way to like not make mistakes and. not um.

look. bad. And that's why by the way this. whole book is written as like here's all. the mistakes that we made and how we did. it all wrong just to give people the. permission know like we're all works in. progress. We're all trying to learn. Um so you are overcoming like a much. larger cur- cultural inertia to get. people to take risks and and make. mistakes. How do you do that? Uh you exhibit failure from the top. Like you admit I think when you've when. like. when you've made mistakes like when I've. made mistakes or even talking about.

you know, my development plan or things. that I'm working on. I just think it is. like you almost all of these cultural. attributes have to be modeled from the. very top. Super interesting. Cuz most people are. just incentivized to just do their job. So when you bring along a a new idea or. a new innovation. you know, incentive structures mean oh, listen, I'm not getting paid to take. that [ __ ] risk and then maybe be made. to look stupid. Yeah. So I'm not doing. that. Yeah, I think that's right. And. that's why I think we're and we're. continuing to evolve these principles.

and and and refine them. In fact, we're. going through a process right now. It's. kind of ironic cuz we're we're walking. through these and I'm about to release a. new version of these to the company and. there has been a bit of a refinement and. we're actually kind of changing this one. and combining it with the first one to. call it Love the Problem because so much. of about what we're really trying to get. across through this is that you have to. go like really deep and develop a deep. thesis on a problem and that's what you. do I think at this stage of a company. You don't take like wild leaps based on. the intuition of a founder anymore. You like do deep research on a problem.

You get conviction around it and then. you're not afraid to. like fail again and again trying to. solve that problem because you are. convinced that it's a real problem and. you understand a lot about it and you're. making a very informed decision You're. taking a very thoughtful approach to. solving it. Number four was and it currently is in. my iPad here, guided by principles. And. that one's definitely staying and that's. one of the biggest um. uh. my own personal journey and I would say. like this journey and it just it it's. sort of what I talked about when I.

talked about how this got created in the. first place is that. if you keep making the same mistakes. over and over again and you're not. having an honest self-assessment about. where you are and how things are. working, you won't get better. And so. both of my own personal journey and this. has happened through. you know, recovery through alcohol and. addiction and getting better and better. as an entrepreneur is like I was always. self-reflecting and thinking about like. okay, like seeking feedback. Like what. didn't go well there? What did go well. there? How can I do that better next. time? And it became like I said, too arduous. for me to even to track all these things.

in my mind. So I started putting them in. that Google Doc so that everyone at the. company could hold me accountable to. this like management algorithm I was. developing. And what I wanted us is to do as a. company is always make decisions based. on principles. Like what's the. underlying reason? Like if I'm making a. decision, no one should ever think well, that's just cuz Justin likes it that way. or that's just because. some other leader at the company, that's. just what they want. So let's just do it. their way. We want people to think like. to understand. like how am I making these decisions? What's underneath that? What principles.

do I believe in that made me to choose. this over that? Because if you make that. really explicit and clear, then you gain. trust, people understand like why you're. making the decisions, and two, they can. start making decisions on their own. without you needing to be in the room, and start developing their own. principles. for how they make decisions. And so so many of our meetings start off. with like, well, here are the principles. that we sort of aligned on as we started. to make, you know, think about this body. of work. And it just. aligns everyone on the. um.

What's the What are What are What was. the like the core set of assumptions and. beliefs and values that we have before. we get into the details of the work. And. that kind of counteracts the whole CEO. because I said so, you know, vibe, which might get, I. guess, um might get compliance, but it. probably won't deliver upon whatever. someone calls leadership. Yeah, it's not. scalable. And maybe some CEOs always. know the right thing to do, but I don't. always know the right thing to do. I I. think my job, once we got past 20 or 30. people, which by the way, I didn't know. the right thing to do even when we were.

that small, but. I thought I did. Um but as we got much. bigger, like I can't be close enough to. the. to the information to like make really. great decisions. And so my job primarily. is is building and fostering the culture. that makes good decisions. I've been thinking a lot about company. culture, and I threw this at Brian. Chesky when he was here. This idea of. how you create company culture. Like how. do you decide? I think some people think, especially. post-pandemic, which caused all of these. companies and businesses to start. thinking about what their company.

culture was way. You'd see CEOs and managers. almost like brainstorming a. principle-less culture. And it was more. like how What days do you want people to. come in? Mondays and Wednesdays? Should. we say Tuesdays two days a week, one day. a week? Should we, you know, um. And that just doesn't feel right. It. doesn't feel like it's based on. anything. So I said to Brian, I said, one of the things I'm thinking about is. maybe culture is. already there, and you just kind of have. to reverse engineer it from the problem. you're trying to solve in the world. Which means, for example, if we want to.

be the best dating app in the world, then there's a set of behaviors we're. going to have to exhibit to get there, which is going to require a set of. values. And then with those values, we're going to use those values to. create systems, processes, and hire the. people that we need. And so you can. almost reverse engineer your mission as. a company. um backwards to figure out what your. culture is. You said something about like you're. just describing the culture that already. exists. And I think that's kind of true, especially if you do it early enough. where it's not out of control yet. Um.

when it's like relatively close around. the founder, you've only got like 30 or. 40 or 50 people, then you definitely. have some sort of culture. And at that. point though, I think you want to start. defining. defining it so that everyone's clear on. what it is, cuz it will start you'll. start losing as it starts expanding and. people start It's a game of telephone, right? And it will like it will get lost. over time. So you want to get really. clear on like what it is. I think it's the the best of what is as. well, right? Cuz I think you're you're. trying to like.

articulate when we're at our best, this. is how we're acting. And when we're at our worst, this is how. we're acting. Cuz both are always. happening within a company, like and you. don't want to. you want to constantly prune away the. stuff that's not. that's sort of not great, and start. having more on people replicate what is. great. So it's that It's more like a. pruning process, and not just like a. here's our culture, like describe it and. and put it out the door. But you On the. other hand, you can't just like. throw it up on a wall and invent it from.

scratch. Like once an organization is. big, you can't just say like, our. culture suddenly is going to be X, Y, and Z. It'll be so inauthentic to what's. actually going on on the ground that no. one would ever follow it. I almost think. about like parenting in a way. Like you. can tell a kid a rule or tell a kid like. a but you always have to be watching and. like giving those little guidances like. here and there. You always have to be. giving those little nudges when you see. when you see people acting with in. accordance with the culture and praising. it or not in accordance with the culture.

and giving them constructive feedback. Cuz it's such It's this living, breathing thing. Like defining it is. just like one one step, but a very. important step. And as the company grows. and scales, I was thinking about this idea of um. the best of what is. Is it possible that the best of what is. when there's 10 of you, and you're. potentially sleeping under a table like. the stereotype goes, is not going to be the right culture for. when there is like. 200 of you? Yeah, totally. And you know, the the.

book you're reading from right now is. when we were, you know, 50 to 100. people. And. and now we're 300 and something people, and and we're evolving them, and we're. actually changing some of them because. I've learned things over time that like. no longer work at a company this big. I'll give you an example. One is that idea of radical trust, which. we just talked about, which actually. kind of pained me to talk about because. that's not I've learned that's like not. right for a company this big anymore.

You want to push decision-making down. somewhat, but if you do it too much, especially in a larger organization, you. start getting like a lot of silos and. everyone just doing micro-optimizations. And there's. there's you actually want to be. there needs to be much more of a. conversation. And actually watch the the. the Brian interview when he talks about. pulling decision-making in. And that. actually is, I think, more in line with. where you have to be if you want to stay. innovative and still think like a. startup even at a big scale. So there's. things that I took for granted, because.

when we were 100 people, that was happening already, but I didn't. see it because I just had I knew. everyone's name. We were all in the same. room, and so there was a lot of. CEO and executive team influence on the. team that that was kind of hidden cuz it. just happened naturally. So we thought. we were pushing decision-making down. However, I was I was in conversation. with junior developers and junior. engineers and junior designers all the. time giving them like little nuggets of. feed like I was like I was involved, just not officially.

And I think as we got much bigger, we. realized like, oh gosh, you can't just. like push decision-making down and like. hope for the best. You have to like pull. it people in and coordinate. And there. are people at the top that have a view. across what's going on across the whole. company that need to actually be making. decisions. We can't just like push it. down. Just to be super clear on that for. someone who is, you know, in their first. month of business, um pulling. decision-making in in that regard is. empowering people to make decisions, but. those decisions coming again through the. central lens of the company's mission.

When you're really small, it's it's it's. happening already, right? If you're If. you're a team of 10 people or 12 people, like you're all aware of what each other. are doing, you're talking, and you're. being conscious about if I'm the. marketing person and the and the product. person over here working on this product. feature, I I'll think like, oh, I should. probably market that product feature. Like I There's just this like. understanding of what's going on. So you. are making You're like set kind of a. hive mind. You just take that for granted. And as. you get much bigger, you can either. make you know, I think the extremes are.

you you just have like a founder who. makes all the decisions. Everything just. gets brought into them. Which I think makes a lot of people feel. disempowered. And the other hand, you. push decision-making completely down, and you say, you all just handle it. I'll just articulate the high-level. vision and strategy, and you But then. you usually don't make great sort of. uh interdisciplinary. or major cohesive. leaps that are that feel cohesive. Everything starts like. So it's this balance of.

having just like a constant. conversation, opportunity for feedback. I still Ultimately, the decision-makers. are the people who are close to the. work. However, we are like pulling it in. and articulating strategy and and. generating conversation. I'm in the room. with more junior people. a lot now than I Frankly, more now than. I used to be, so that we can continually. um. bring people along on what the strategy. is, what are the big leaps we're making, and what are all the little ways that we. keep this cohesive.

It's interesting because in the age of. the internet, um and the age of dating. apps and all these other tools and. technologies, even though we have better internet. connections, the stats continue to show. that we're getting lonelier and. lonelier. Yeah. Which is a word you used. central to your mission, the word. loneliness. 52% of Americans report to feeling. lonely, and 57% of Americans report to. eating their meals alone, etc. So. something's clearly failing, isn't it? Something's clearly not working in this. pursuit of connection and social. connection and social media, etc. Yeah, and I think So loneliness has been a.

problem that I think has been creeping. up on us for a while, but. it's really started to accelerate in the. last few years. And if you look at. you know, I've seen charts that show. like. time spent together in real life. with friends and time spent consuming. media consuming like digital media on. apps. And it's like over the last like. 20 years, the one is almost completely. displaced the other. We used to spend. hours a day with friends.

in real life on average, um. and make like having genuine. connections, seeing and being seen. And now, people are virtually almost. always consuming some form of digital. media or they're working. So even when. you're at the gym, you're probably like. listening to, you know, a uh like. whatever, like a music or a podcast, or. you are. with that, Justin.

Nothing wrong with that. Listen, that. get rid of my cuz we're not designed to. be deleted every day. you're because because you're conscious. I mean, so in I'm not saying all media. consumption is bad. I'm saying that like. when you are But when you're pulled in. all day and it's completely displaced, like you're no longer talking with. friends because you're just like. doomscrolling on social media platform. X, Y, or Z, you've you've really we've really lost. something, and I think it's that, I. think, more than anything has led to. this like. crisis level acceleration in in. loneliness. I'm so interested in the.

disparity between men and women in. dating. We've had lots of conversations. over the years on this podcast about. this, but. even in your app, you see a big. disparity between like the bottom 50% of. men or the bottom group of men on dating. apps and like the top one or two percent. of men on dating apps. I'm going to be completely honest. Much of the reason why I never used. dating apps is I had no success. Mhm. I. would get like no good matches. I was a. 18, 19, 20-year-old kid that had.

nothing, was super scruffy, had no. money. I had no chance on these apps. And I had this best friend called Logan. Mhm. who looks like he comes out of like. a Calvin Klein ad. We were both broke. Yeah, yeah. But he. could go on those apps and he would he. would clean up. And I look over at him. and I think, "Jesus Christ, like what's. left for me?" I genuinely believe, and. people might find this quite shocking, in my life, I've been on five dates. Mhm. In my entire life. My strategy is I go all in. So, the. minute my current girlfriend said she.

wanted to go on a date with me, I pulled. up an Excel document and it was a. three-day. like itinerary. I just. I just went all in. I've only been on. five dates in my life. But I but I. emphasize with men that really struggle. with dating apps and have become. disillusioned. In fact, when we had, I. think it was Whitney Wolfe Herd on from. Bumble, um. I was really surprised because. those men showed up in the comment. section Mhm. and they felt like they've. been forgotten about.

So, uh it's a big I mean, it's a big. focus for us and we I mean, part of this. is like larger cultural forces that I. think are at work, but um part of it are. things that we can really address, I. think, within dating apps. And. some people are just. good at dating apps and some people, I. think, are quite datable, but they're. just not good at dating apps. And I. think I think the question is like how. do we help. really make it a much more focused.

quality over quantity experience. How do. we help the people that are struggling? And this is where I actually think a lot. of the promise of of what's being. unlocked through AI and generative AI is. going to like really help us coach. people who aren't finding success and. help them find better success and create. matches that are much more like quality. over quantity. I mean, that when we. rebooted Hinge, we wanted to make it. more quality over quantity. And. we went from a world where people used. to like it used to take a thousand. swipes in order to get on a date, and.

then the new Hinge it took about 50. likes. So, we made a big leap back then in. terms of helping people get on on good. dates. I think now with AI, I think there's. like a whole other leap of focus in. terms of learning about you, learning. about who's out there, helping match. people up in a in like a really nice. one-to-one way, and you don't feel like. you're in this like. very crowded room where you know, some. every all the attractions, you know, are. all the attention's going to just a. certain group of people. And so, I think.

there is a like. I think the future's getting brighter. for us to be able to solve that problem. What are the what is that disparity? I. read, and this might not be accurate, um. 2021 study by Hinge found that the top. 1% of men on the app receive more than. 16% of all of the likes, while the top. 1% of women receive just over 11%. This. indicates a significant disparity in the. level of attention men and women receive. on dating apps. And similar things. from Bumble, um a 2022 study by Bumble. found that men send an average of 13.

messages per day on the app, while women. only send roughly three messages per. day. This suggests that men are putting. in significantly more effort to initiate. conversations on dating apps. And then. more broadly from that, we've had people. on this podcast like. Scott Galloway that talks about how the. very. top 10 10% or the top group of men. having all the sex and basically there's. this kind of like disillusion, disenfranchised group at the bottom of. men who are having no sex and are aren't. finding relationships, are not having. intimate connection. And it's that group.

of men that he says are the most. dangerous of all cuz they're like. lonely, broke, disillusioned young men. Mhm. We still have work to do to there's. like a major opportunity to help those. people that are struggling to find their. person by helping them. zero in better on. the person that they like and and the. person who will like them back, helping. them put their best foot forward and. make sure that they are not shooting. themselves in the foot by like choosing. the wrong photos or like not putting. getting one-word answers on prompts or. any of those types of things.

So, that I think is the. the key is. like. so like a a big effort at at Hinge right. now internally, we're calling it flatten. the power curve, but it's it's it's. essentially that. It's like how do you. help the people who aren't getting to. success? How do you level them up to get. to success? And then how do you focus. the people so that. um there's not that kind of like power. curve behavior on in society and on. dating apps. We think we can actually. correct what's going on and more largely. in society through dating apps.

And so I'm clear, we do that by coaching. people to be better at dating apps, basically like picking better pictures, understanding better ways to reply. We. do that by. helping them match with people that are. more suitable to them and that are more. likely to Yeah, and I think giving like. better, more warm introductions so that. people have a people have more focus and. more of a chance. And you also limit. like what's going on in terms of um. people sending too many likes or. matching too much and getting them to.

focus on the people that they actually. really want so that you don't. over-engage the rest of the user base. Is there a challenge in getting people. to go from the app to the real world? Cuz I would I would always be super. scared of that. Yeah, I mean, there's uh. that's the whole point of our app and. that's very much what we're like pushing. people towards. Um. but yeah, I mean, the whole the whole. funnel is a challenge in terms of. getting, you know, getting people to. sign up, getting people to like create. profiles, getting people to like move. from a match to conversation and.

conversation to date. You mentioned AI, big topic of conversation this year, of. course. Um generative AI and how that. might be able to help people find their. person. I mean, the conversation around. AI and relationships and dating has. always been quite pessimistic because. people are thinking about sex robots and. stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's not the that's certainly. not going to be what Hinge is working. on. How how can you use AI to You mentioned. it briefly there, but I want to make.

sure I'm clear. How specifically? You can give me feedback. Kind of like. Whoop does. They have that they've. released their AI feature. one level of it is like just thinking. like how do you make the the dating app. experience better? How do you help. people build better profiles? How do you. help coach people through the. conversation process and help them move. them off to a date? So, you can. certainly. like coach people, be like, "Hey, you. should choose these types of photos or. whatever." Like all that is possible. with AI. What I think like the bigger leap though.

is to move much closer to what feels. like a matchmaker model. And that I. think starts to solve some of the. problems that that what you were just. talking about where. it's less like you're just sitting there. evaluating and that that whole idea of. like creating a profile, matching, trying to chat, trying to move it off to. a date. Like when you work with a. matchmaker, you just have an interview. and they learn who you are. They go out. and interview other people and they say, "Hey, we think you all should meet. We'll set up the date. And then after. the date, I'm going to follow up to see. how it went and provide some feedback.".

Interesting. we can get closer and closer to that. model where we're like going almost. straight to setting up dates that are. with a much higher likelihood of success. than sort of leaving it on the user to. create a personal advertisement for. themself and, you know, do all the work. to sort of. find through people that are going to. like them, that are going to that will. like them back, etc. The word company, by definition, means group of people. Um you talk about.

hiring in your principles quite often. and just generally. in this book. Principle number five here. is people with heart. Hire people who. embody the core values. I I I've come to learn, longer I've been. in business, that hiring is really. central to everything. Um culture being. the thing that binds those group of. people together, but. what have you learned about hiring and. what would your message be to maybe your. younger self that is 2012, when you were. relaunching the new Hinge? What would. you say to that guy that you know now. about hiring? We made a whole lot of hiring mistakes. in the beginning and um and it was still.

it we sort of did it like we did the. principles, which is we looked at, "Okay, who are the people who have. succeeded at Hinge? What are their. attributes? Who are the people who have. not succeeded at Hinge and like what are. their attributes?" And then we started. to just create attributes for like. who like who succeeds and who doesn't. And then we started to design an. interview, which we call the culture. interview, which still everyone goes. through at Hinge, which is essentially like assesses for. those attributes. And. um. that led to a dramatic increase in.

success, making sure that we, you know, when people came, they didn't quit or. weren't fired within their first year. And um now we have extraordinarily low. attrition at Hinge, especially voluntary. attrition. Um and I think it's because we focus so. much on making sure we get people in who. have those values. And then once you. have people in who have those values and. they're all around other people who have. those values, it's like a place they want to stay. because it feels. it they feel so aligned with the people. that they work with. And if there was if.

you had to get rid of every value but. keep one, when it comes to hiring a. Hinge person, which one would you keep? Our three core values are authenticity, and courage, and empathy. That's like. and it and they are a bit of a trifecta. because one without another. is like is very imbalanced, I think. So, um you want people to be authentic. You don't want them to like be so. authentic and so blunt that they like. are rude and mean to people, right? There's that the level of empathy. But I think like those two values. especially that like authenticity,

showing up, being who you are, saying. what's on your mind, and that level of empathy is ultimately. what builds trust. And I think trust. like within an organization is really. the lifeblood of the organization. And. those two values I think build more. trust than anything else. They're like. the two ingredients of a great. relationship. 10 years from now we sit here and we. have another conversation and we talk. about what Hinge is, the impact it's had on the world. What do you tell me?

I think the. the. next-level impact that we can have. in terms of shaping dating culture and. coaching and teaching people to become. not just better daters, but like we. become it's. better better people, really. And. coaching people how to like have more. harmonious relationships, form better. relationships. Like I think there's so. much opportunity. to guide people on that process. And. and so the idea that 10 years from now.

we like really shaped. dating culture. in a way that just made everyone more. successful. That I think is like the. vision for where where we're headed. As you know, Whoop are sponsors of this. podcast and I'm an investor in the. company. And last month I had the chance. to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's. the VP of performance at Whoop and I. learned so much from our conversation. about circadian rhythms and things like. sleep. Study show that for every 45. minutes of sleep debt that you accrue, that your decision-making ability will.

drop by up to 10%. And when you're. chronically underslept, you'll only be a. fraction of the person, the fraction of. the boss, partner, friend, manager that. you can be. That's why I'm obsessed with. Whoop, which not just tracks, but. coaches you on how to get better at. sleep so you can bring your best to. everything that you choose to do. If. you're not convinced, you can try Whoop. for 30 days completely risk-free with. zero commitment just by going to. join.whoop.com/ceo.

That's join.whoop.com/ceo. And let me know how you get on. If you. don't like it, there's no commitment. Join.whoop.com/ceo. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're going to leave it for. And the question that's been left for. you is. if you could go back in time and give. one piece of advice. to your 10-year-old self,

what would it be? Ah. Well, what comes to mind if I could have. impressed on myself that like. uh. you are. I mean impressed on myself that idea of. intrinsic worth. If I could have like. let myself know that I was worthy no. matter what, regardless of like who. dumped me or who ostracized me. Um.

that's what I wish. In some sense I wish. I could have understood and then on the. other sense it's like shaped my entire. life and is the reason that I have Hinge. and the reason that I have Kate. So I think maybe the advice I would give. is just buckle up. Because it's going to be a really wild. ride and it it uh. it um. you know, does have a way of working out. in the end. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's a. pleasure. You've built a really incredible company. and you've built a different business.

And that's that's so evident in the. product that is Hinge. In a market where. there's a lot of people doing the same. obvious thing, going for the low-hanging. fruit. It was so clear to me from a very. long distance that at some point someone. was being guided by first principles. Mhm. Because you went an an obvious. route which has turned in your favor as. society has evolved and we've got sick. of surface-level things and people are. dissatisfied with not actually. the promise of these apps not being.

realized which was you told me you were. going to help me find love. Yeah. And. I'm still using and swiping on this app. three or four years later and feeling. despair, maybe even feeling worse than I. did when I started. But Hinge took a. different route and when you describe. Hinge to someone, you say. it's an app that cares more about. meaning, that cares more about fostering. deep connections, and that as you say in. your own words, slows things down a. little bit so you can take the time to. find a much more um real, authentic, potentially successful bond than. the rest of the dating market. And.

that's why Hinge has always been I think. has always represented the future. Because at the end of the day people are. coming on these apps to find love. And. it's clear to me, this whole designed to. be deleted thing, that and from. everybody that I've met at Hinge, that. that is a promise you are genuinely. trying to deliver upon. Yeah, I mean it's totally true. And that. idea of first principles is exactly. right. I think you have to just like. rethink from the ground up like how. would I build this and stop thinking. like oh, other apps do this, we'll do. this with this twist. And that I think. is what. initially.

you don't find success through that path. cuz everyone's like well, this is. different, this is weird. There's no. blueprint. Right. And um but over time that like. the the compound interest that comes. from actually building an effective. product that grows through word of mouth. is. is you just And now today Hinge is, you. know, the fastest-growing major dating. app, we're the number one app in the UK. and Australia and and. quickly growing in in Europe to become. like a top dating app in in Europe. So. it's. it pays off eventually. You have to be.

very patient. I see that in Great Ormond. Street, you know, I see it sort in the. Whoop founder. These unobvious decisions. that they made because they're so guided. by their first principles, usually based. on the founder's personal experience. And that's what I see in Hinge. So thank. you for creating an app that I consider. to be a really great one and a really. important one. And being someone who's. driven to end loneliness ultimately and. bring people together cuz it's never. been more important than it is now. Thank you, Justin. Thank you. Quick one from one of our sponsors. A. lot of you have asked me the question. about Huel over the years about where.

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