Growing A 10+ Million Youtube Following At The Age of 22: Joe Sugg | E172

i start to feel anxious getting followed. by a guy like my mind is panicking i. actually can't concentrate on driving. because i know this person is just. trying to follow us. a strictly fine list written a book a. west end an internet. sensation you started at 19 20 years old. by 22 you had about 6 million. subscribers yeah that's [ __ ] nice it. was so uncertain about where that was. going to go the rise but also the fall. can happen so quick. the imposter syndrome i already had got. amplified anxiety self-doubt the whole.

thing just didn't feel real. diane you met her on strictly first real. proper girlfriend yeah the further you. go in that competition the higher the. pressure is and the stress gets we saw. the best and the worst of each other i. always thought it would be a very. private thing it's actually end up being. the complete opposite. hand on heart. do you think if you'd never started. youtube you'd be happier overall. good question. um.

so without further ado. i'm stephen bartlett and this is the. diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening. but if you are then please keep this. yourself. [Music]. joe. tell me what are the most important. things that i need to know about you. from your early years in order to. understand you. uh in order to understand the man that. you are today today i was quite a loud.

child i was a loud annoying child. growing up when we look back through. like family videos. um. it's it's quite embarrassing to watch. particularly me because. um i. i'm the i was the sort of boy that'd be. like mommy watch this watch this like. repeating myself over and again and. we're watching it back like oh shut up. like you were an annoying child but then. um at some point. i flipped and i don't know when that was. but at some point i flipped and became a. very. sort of timid quite a shy child.

um. always very creative even from an early. early age um i was uh. a good drawer i used to illustrate and. draw a lot of pictures at school. um. which definitely came from passed down. from my parents mum and dad both very. creative in their own in their own sense. i went to a very very small primary. school um in rural wheelchair and i. think there's 52 pupils in our in our. whole school going from there to.

secondary school was a big change for me. because that was going from 52 people. was in the whole school to. over a thousand so that was a big which. probably could have a. a reason why. i went from being. sort of. quite a loud annoying child to being a. lot more sort of oh about my debt fear. i'm now a small fish in a big pond. you were i read in the book. in chapter one of grow that you were. quite self-deprecating at that point. in secondary school yeah yeah yeah yeah.

primary school i i feel like primary. school i was a. i was a lot more confident. everyone knew everyone very well and i. just felt like a lot more popular then. and then. yeah moving to secondary school it was. much more like yeah like i said it was. it was a very different. place. um and. that's when i first sort of encountered. teasing and bullying and stuff and i. wasn't necessarily like. bullied i wouldn't but it was more like.

if there was over like teasing going on. or things that they were trying to sort. of dig. i. very quickly sort of realized if i'm. already sort of poking fun at myself. they will get bored of trying to poke. fun at me so there's less chance of that. happening at that age in secondary. school would you consider yourself to be. a confident child. no. no. do you know what's silently confident. like in my head i've always been the. sort of person where i can. i know what i'm capable of and i know.

that. that i think. you know i know that i'm. i can do certain things to a good. standard and i know that i i can be a. good student and all this kind of stuff. but on the outside. not as confident at all so like with. work and stuff i was very confident i. was confident that i'd be able to get. the grades and. do well in school and things like that. but it's more the sort of social. side of it i found that a lot more. difficult. well if i'd asked you at that age what. you wanted to be when you grew up what.

would you what did you tell me say like. 16-ish 16 i wanted to be i wanted to. work in media but i wanted to be more go. more down the route of um. animation my goal as a kid initially. first of all it was. an archaeologist of course i wanted to. be in diana jones and then uh secondary. school um i wanted to work for admin i. wanted to be an animator like model. builder. um or just i think i've got i've got a. lot of patience. and uh if you know animations like oh.

how long it took to make chicken run or. wallace and gromit you know these films. take a long time to make so i wanted to. yeah i felt like i'd be good to do that. i wanted to want it to work for hartman. you your your grades at a level were. really good. yeah which was surprising because then. you know most people with those kind of. grades like gays and stuff would then go. off to university yeah you chose not to. no yeah it's. so we did. uh work experience i don't see the same. like when you turn 16 you have to get.

into a dentist did you yeah i fell. asleep every day so. i am. i decided to go roof thatching with my. uncle so my uncle is a roof thatcher. which is a. a very old traditional craft that they. don't really teach anymore it's very. like kind of there's no classes you can. go and take and you can't study for it. you've got to actually go on the job and. work on the job and you learn that when. the master thatcher thinks you're ready. you then go from being an apprentice to.

a master thatcher and. my school remember my school advised. that i didn't do it but i went and did. it anyway shouldn't done sorry. but i i so i went and did that and then. um. i absolutely loved it and it was i was. outside i think what it was i was. outside. it was. it was tough i wasn't really i was. lifting a lot of straw and moving things. and sweeping up but i i absolutely loved. it is there's something about like when. we finished a roof we look at what we've. done and it's just.

that feeling i wanted to bottle that up. and be like that's what i want for the. rest of my life so i decided that i. wanted to be a roof thatcher for the. rest of my life. i'm the sort of per i'm very kind of i'm. very. bad at making my mind up on things as. well there's a lot going on i'm very bad. at making my mind up on stuff so i was. like what if it doesn't work out later. on down the line i need to have. a levels so if i if this doesn't go to. plan or you know after a while i don't. like it i can at least then try out. university and go back to.

trying to. work for. something in the media or or arden or. something. so um but i didn't i'd sort of i i. always like the idea of having safety. nets. underneath me so if something if. something doesn't go to plan it's all. right you've always got that safety net. of. and that's kind of like in a way what. roof thatching became because i started. doing youtube as a hobby off the back of. the thatching did it my spare time and. that started to take off and.

and become. a full-time career but then i was. in a way safe going into that because i. was like if it all doesn't pan out. because it's going back to when youtube. wasn't really a career as well so it was. it was so uncertain about where that was. going to go. but i always felt very like. secure in the fact that i knew that if. it didn't pan out i try it for a year it. doesn't work. i can go back to a job that i genuinely. really really love so. yeah the two the two ideas that that. almost in sort of collision there was.

this idea that you are. very self-confident in your abilities. and that you've always needed a plan b. yeah i was trying to make them make. sense as two kind of separate ideas. because one of them sounded a bit like. self-doubt this idea that sometimes. there's a struggle to make a definitive. decision and that there's a need for a. plan b. are you someone that has. self-doubt at the same time because i. think it's i think it's possible to. understand your talents but also have. doubt in. the future and. how things will pan out yeah i'm the.

sort of person where i think of. the best case scenario so like i i have. those. like i've got a very vivid imagination. so with everything i go into i always. think of the best possible outcome which. then gives me that sort of. self-confidence but then i also have. mr self-doubt on the other side who. finds the worst case scenario. and then they they have a battle in my. head. of. how i should think and it i think that's. where the indecision comes from with a. lot of stuff i live with it i'm glad.

i've kind of got it because without like. i would i wouldn't want to always have. the self-doubt there. and i also wouldn't ever always want to. have the self-confidence there because i. think that would make me. a completely different person maybe a. person that i don't like either. so. i don't know it's there's um. yeah i have i have both. that's the thing with them with the. self-doubt if it's just a little bit too. high and i learned this actually from a. guest on his podcast called near iel he. um.

he wrote a book on why we get distracted. and ultimately like why we procrastinate. on things and he says procrastination is. the result of us trying to avoid. a task or thing that's that we have. psychological discomfort associated with. yeah so when you're like you know you've. got the essay to do you'll end up doing. the washing up because that's the task. you're competent in and whereas with the. essay you know there's loads of research. to do you're not necessarily you don't. feel comfortable starting yet there's. something missing so there's mental. psychological discomfort so you just go. do the dishes yeah and i think. self-doubt is one of the things that. leads us to have that psychological.

discomfort where we just kind of delay. it and wait for that perfect time or. go do the dishes i have that all the. time it's i i always say it's because. i'm creative because i'm creative it's. like i get scared. i don't scared the right word but i yeah. i put it off like if i know i've got. something i want to do that's that is. creative and. requires a lot of sort of sitting around. thinking beforehand and then putting pen. to paper or. or um anything that's going to involve. the creative process. i delay it and i.

i think it's a thing of like what if i. start doing it and instantly i don't. like it and i'm like oh this is not how. i imagined because you you sort of. in your mind you have this version of it. it's always going to come flowing out of. the pen or you're going to start filming. something and it's always going to go. perfect to planning and it doesn't and. it very very often does it all just. completely flow. um and i think that that kind of puts a. block in i'm always like. if i'm going to do it i need to make. sure everything's prepared beforehand. that is very interesting a lot of the. time is what we say to ourselves that. we're the reason i'm not.

starting it or the reason i have that. procrastination is because i'm a. perfectionist i i really want you know. everyone loves that because it's a nice. way of framing yourself. as being as having really really really. high standards and being honestly it's. kind of like saying i'm the reason i've. not started it yet or the reason i. struggle is because i'm amazing yeah. it's almost like saying that when really. a lot of the time it's probably. self-doubt and that psychological. discomfort associated with you don't. feel fully competent or like you could. fully. nail it and you're trying to avoid the.

mess which which we all encounter as we. do anything yeah i think it's like it's. kind of like that i. i think it's from that part of my brain. that's like seeing the best possible. outcome so like let's say for example. uh i'm doing a painting. in my head i'll have that thing of like. almost going ahead cause because my. imagination i see it finished and i'm. like this is it's gonna be amazing it's. gonna you know i'm gonna post it online. and people are going to love it and. things like that but then i. start and it doesn't quite go i'm like. oh actually this is in my mind i've gone.

through this process of like doing it. over and over again and getting it to. how i want it to go and then i start. doing it it's not going how i imagined. it and that sort of scares me a bit and. that's why i think i. put things off more from that kind of. side. unfinished paintings yeah a lot of them. too many of them what what have you. learned about is there anything that. you've learned or any anything that's. helped you get past that initial. um hesitancy of procrastination or. because you know you know reading. through your story and even speaking to.

you today even before we start recording. i was like god this guy's got so many. ideas i was going to say yeah. that is something that i've. struggled with especially nowadays where. like. going into things like business like. starting businesses and stuff. i feel like from what i've seen very. rarely do you see people that are doing. so many different things and it is that. thing of like i'm a plate spinner like i. love spinning plates of different things. and trying to keep up with these. spinning plates and i.

take time to sort of sit back and look. at these things and think. when are you going to sit on one thing. and actually just do that thing. and devote you because you see like you. look throughout history of like artists. and people who have devoted their whole. life to. sculpting i mean. and um i sort of tell myself i'm not. going to achieve. anything sort of near that if i don't. dedicate my whole life to one thing but. for me i just find it so difficult. because i'm like i've got a limited time. and i want to dip my toe into everything.

and it's weird because i feel like i use. this analogy and i don't know if it's a. great analogy or not but. with. the youtube sort of career that i've had. over the last 10 years that is something. that i did. sort of double down on and really focus. on my energy on at one point but then it. became a point of. branching out and doing different things. just as a form of like stability as well. because we didn't know we still like we. back in those days we didn't know how. it's going to last for so we did sort of. branch out into different things and i. think i just got a bit carried away with.

the branching out and just i was like. there's so many things to. sort of see and try out and do. i see like the that youtube thing of. like catching up like going out to sea. and catching a wave and caught that wave. in. um and it was incredible it was a. record-breaking wave it was a major wave. kind of thing and you know uh. and now i feel like i'm sort of. i'm back out on my board again and i'm. paddling around i've caught a few little. waves but they've not been. like another you know ripper of a wave.

like like the youtube one was yet but i. i'm sort of like. i know that there's more big waves out. there. but it's just kind of like knowing which. way you start paddling you know like how. surfers sort of start to paddle out. trying to catch them and you watch them. they sort of get it and then doesn't go. and it's like i feel like at the moment. i'm sort of. paddling out. and sort of waiting for that sort of. next. big wave in a sense why do you need a. next big wave.

good point i should just stay on the. beach i think that's actually what my. therapist i have the therapist i speak. to and i use that analogy with her and. she said. exact same thing why do you need to. catch the next big wave why not stay on. the beach you don't need to. go out and. constantly catch big waves. i was thinking this because you said. earlier i mean the question i was going. to. ask before you talked about the wave. analogy was kind of similar which is if. you're happy spinning multiple plates. and trying lots of things and sculpting.

for the joy of sculpting. it seems like and this is i'm guilty of. this in the biggest way it seems like. there's this other narrative which is. saying no no no no no forget what you. love doing focus because success is the. most important thing yeah when i say. success i mean like. accomplishment yeah because real success. probably is actually being happy yeah. and you're happy like but but it's. almost. almost like we deny ourselves of. happiness because there's not a gold. medal there or there's not a gazillion. followers there yeah but you're enjoying. sculpting yeah for the sake of sculpture.

it's it's like it's like a punishment of. yourself like i feel like i um. in a way i yeah it's kind of like a form. of like joe you know you love doing this. and this makes you genuinely happy. so why don't you just do it i mean and. if you love it that much and you stick. at it and do it then. good things may come from it but it's. not gonna happen straight away and it's. like it's almost like i get into i think. of like i like to sort of the things i. know i love doing i put aside and i. focus on the things that.

that maybe i don't love as much or not. as passionate about as much. but i'll sort of almost put that before. the little things that make me really. happy it's bizarre i have no idea no. idea i've tried to i've tried to like. think about it a lot and it's it's weird. that it comes from i don't know where. where it comes from because are you. saying because those things you could be. although you might not love them as much. you you might be able to be successful. in the eyes of the world in them or i. think it's because i've got that thing i. mean it's looking for instant success.

and stuff which is weird and maybe. that's because of. like. before on youtube and stuff there was a. time where. you know. we were. i say we like might speak for myself but. like me and a lot of the people around. at similar time that on that sort of. wave that we are on. we all. um. everything we sort of would go into. almost became an instant. success in a way it was like yeah i. think because we like back then.

i felt like it was it was so much bigger. anything you sort of went into you you. know it did end up sort of getting. attention and doing really well and and. things whereas now maybe not so much and. i think that's kind of crazy. we signed some youtubers back in that. those days so. maybe not because you were you were very. very early but yeah in. 2013-14 we signed a bunch of youtubers. and still to this day none of them were. near near the size of of you and that. sort of british cohort of like youtube.

megastars but still to this day i d and. they must have been 18 19 20 years old i. still think it ruined their lives yeah. because i watched an 18 year old 19 year. old kid who had started a youtube. channel got to two hundred thousand. three hundred thousand subscribers when. there was no video that was the only. shop in town for the video yeah yeah. before facebook video and instagram and. snap and twitter video so that was where. as brands we were just pumping all the. money into these youtubers yeah i. watched those kids turn down 15 grand to. show up to a [ __ ] movie premiere yeah. or to just show face when that.

when that wave comes into shore and hits. the beach and it's over yeah i don't. those i don't those kids are in a. psychological trap almost with their own. personal expectations of the world. and i and i and i really worry about. that because. success has often is can be a curse. because because of the way it messes. with our own personal expectations of. ourself and of the world yeah and in in. some respects that sounds like what. you're saying your expectations back. then everything you guys touched did. turn to gold. yeah now you're saying it's it's a.

little bit more difficult yeah bronze. from yeah yeah. do you want does any of that resonate. with you 100 yeah i think that's that's. a big part of why um myself and casper. is also a youtuber we started a. management company because in the future. there's going to be kids i mean we. already seen it then like young kids. that were shooting to fame overnight but. even i think nowadays with other social. medias it happens even quicker like the. the rise but also the fall can happen so. quick and i was like. for for me and casper we want to make a.

management company a big role of what we. have in that is. being in a way called mentors when. needed to. to for any questions they have or. anything that any concerns they have. about that kind of thing we can sort of. give. it's i kind of use it as like a i guess. like the you know like um. the hunger games a guy who's like sat on. the train he sort of takes her through. it and be like look this is gonna happen. i guess like a a. mentor a very different version yeah. like yeah kind of like mental kind of. role yeah um. and that. for me is like one of the like the best.

things. that i do at the moment is having that. sort of one-on-one with our own clients. and sort of if they've got any sort of. issues being able to actually offer. advice. and see it make a change i'm joe at 19. yeah yeah and you're joe at 30. right. what do you say to me. i'm about to um but as you were i'm. about i'm thinking about uploading that. first video yeah. what advice would you give me i would. say. if you want it to get to that level you. can do it if you put in the sort of the. consistency and you're you're making.

stuff that is gonna get seen and stuff. but just be prepared for. there's other sides of it that. aren't aren't all bells and whistles and. that kind of thing there's there's gonna. be obstacles there's gonna be things. that. that you're gonna need advice on and. we're going to be here to. to help and hold your hand through that. if you need it. press negative press. um. you know haters you're going to get. trolls that's the bigger audience size.

the. the more. issues it brings in terms of the more. eyes that are on you the more people. that watch your stuff that might not. like what you do and then they've got a. thing out against you and there's. there's a lot what's the mental cost. i would say. that. if you're me. it's still worth it. it's still. don't ever regret doing it. it's still worth it like you. there there of course there's there's. negatives but. the positives that you've gained out of.

it or you will gain out of it. um in everything. outweighs a negative and don't get don't. get. bogged down by the negatives because. there's more pos you know there's more. positives going to be more positives and. negatives. the the negatives don't matter as much. as you think they're going to matter at. the time at the time when you experience. these negatives and these things that. you know don't go your way or. that's going to happen but. don't let it don't dwell on it don't let. it consume you because.

there's positives beyond that that and. you'll you'll look back and you won't. regret it what is the worst thing that's. going to happen to me. the worst thing is going to happen to. you over the next 10 years so i'm 19. years old. you know how it all plays out yeah. overthinking. overthinking and worrying about what. other people. how they perceive you. what cost is that going to have.

a few sleepless nights. a lot of anxiety. self-doubt guessing at 19 years old joe. didn't know what anxiety was no no what. is it. it's a feeling of. claustrophobia. feeling a bit trapped. um. do you remember do you remember days. through that period i mean you talked a. little bit in the book about i think. 2015 or so a couple of years in i mean.

so you said earlier you started at 19 20. years old by 22 am i correct to say that. you had about six million subscribers. possibly yeah that's [ __ ] it's nice. yeah it happened really quick i was very. fortunate that. my. uh my sister zoe sort of um and alfie. actually um her partner they. really encouraged me to do it. before youtube we used to um. buy blank cassette tapes and make our. own. radio shows or.

i guess by podcasts back in the day like. as like kids we're always taking our. parents camcorder and recording shows. and zoey was very much like. the leader in that she was very much. sort of uh the director let's say. um and i was always the sort of. sort of i just did what she told me to. like i was a little brother that would. just go along with it and that kind of. thing and um so when youtube came around. she started to get a bit of success from. it and she was like you should give us a. go because it's the kind of stuff that. we were doing. as kids or have done we're kind of like. it's not.

that far off from what we used to do. but you know there's an audience that. can watch you from around the world and. and um. and uh so yes i gave it a go and it and. it i think back then the success of like. the. some of the some of the stuff you'd film. back then wouldn't it be like a drop in. the ocean now in terms of like how. big social media has got and youtube and. stuff our stuff wouldn't be watched. nowadays it was like we were very much. kind of hit it at the right time. and uh.

yeah so i started and it just sort of. snowballed and it sniffled really. quickly i remember there was a time. where. um. i was still. thatching on a roof five days of the. week. and then um i had an email come through. asking if i'd go to fly out to los. angeles to interview simon cowell. and yeah i flew out there and it was. first i'm ever experiencing a business. class flight i still had like straw in. my shoes from like being on the roof. and like hadn't showered like kind of.

like just grotty thatcher getting on. this plane like a chauffeur-driven car. pulled up to her house and took me off. to the um heathrow airport and i went. through the it's like a little secret. bit. um where they put these barriers down. you have your own like private security. kind of thing and you go through and and. i was like it just blew my mind and and. uh i hadn't even got to los angeles yet. first time ever flying on my own like. solo. and uh that whole experience was just. like.

the whole thing just didn't feel real it. did not feel real it just felt like i. was sort of like living like a double. life in a way of like. like yesterday i was on a roof. thatching and now i'm. sat in simon cowell's. fancy house sort of. talking to him about skype those. experiences. especially when they're really quick. when they go from zero to a hundred. people when that when i sit here with. them often talk to me about impostor. syndrome yeah. because. you as you said you're kind of living a.

double life you're like what the [ __ ] am. i doing i'm just drawing my shoe in. simon cowling definitely yeah imposter. syndrome. there's definitely a lot of that going. on um and that must result in. overthinking and doubt and yeah all. those things yeah and that's another. thing actually that i would say to. younger joes but you're gonna get this. thing called imposter syndrome. um. you'll learn about it later. but. yeah it'll be there. um. and i've yeah i've had that even even. now to this day like. even. sort of like even now with this podcast.

like i've listened to this podcast all. the time. and even on the way here i was a bit. nervous because i was like you get. like these you know these. incredible ceos all and these people. that are so good at talking and i. struggle to get a sentence together most. of the time and i'm like i even me i. feel like. there's people on there that have done. such amazing things and i'm like. even for me it still gives me that. little bit of imposter syndrome of like. there should be other people there's a. lot more people that should be sat in. this chair.

rather than me what's the risk of that. because you know i met a lot of people. for me the risk is um. you end up like avoiding. like opportunities in life and stuff. because. i'm sure there must have been people. that we've asked to come on this podcast. before that through imposter syndrome. said no like they because we do get a. lot of people come here and they'll say. similar thing we've had i mean i can. think of a few people who literally came. here and was like i don't know why. you've asked me to be here. and that must impact performance it must. make the whole thing unpleasant i mean. at least the lead up anyway yeah until.

i'm such a you know it does yeah i think. like a good example. for me is is. doing strictly or even um actually. probably more so i was uh. waitress in the west end so i i did a. stint on on the west standard waitress. and this was coming off the back of. doing strictly so my confidence actually. it completely changed me in a sense that. it gave me such a big boost of. confidence which i didn't hadn't. had for a long time. um. and so riding on that confidence i. agreed to do a audition for uh ogie and.

waitress in the west end. and um. i remember i kept asking sort of my sort. of my team being like have they asked me. because of. like. strictly or you know will they be honest. and like if i'm not good enough will. they just tell i don't want to sort of. put me in it if i'm actually not good. because oh i'm not too standard that. they'd take someone on i mean if it's. not me. and uh they were they were sort of like. i think you're you know just go along. you'll be you'd go this kind of stuff.

and um i remember even after doing the. audition and they said they really loved. it and things like that i still in my. mind i was still like but did you though. what like are you sure like are you sure. and especially like the. the the backlash that i kind of got from. that was. was quite like i mean it's it's nothing. that. sort of worried me too much but there. was a lot of like people that was. messaged me being like. you you don't deserve this as people. that have trained their entire lives in. musical theater. and they're not gonna they didn't get.

that. they won't ever get that opportunity. because people like you coming in taking. those roles and so i started to have. like a massive and that kind of like. that imposter syndrome i already had got. amplified and i was like maybe i. shouldn't do it and just sort of but. then i wonder i wonder if there's been. any i wonder if there's been any times. where. people have then turned around and said. actually you know what i don't i don't. want this because. of what people on social media have said. did i mean or given their opinion on. um so that was a real sort of.

that was a definitely a moment that. stands out to me of being like. i. probably shouldn't be here doing this. in your in your journey with social. media and youtube was there a moment. where you go that was where i really. started to see the symptoms of. getting burnt out by doing this was. there a year or a time we just thought. [ __ ] i don't want to i don't want to. open my emails i don't want to i don't. want to upload yeah there it was. i think around 2016.

17 i think it might be. um i remember it clearly it was just a. time where there was just a lot going on. i think youtube was. like. uh. massive we were you know. like i think at the time i mean i run. at the time i've had three youtube. channels that i was trying to all keep. up at the same time and this was. actually before i had any i was doing it. all solo as well so i'd think of the. ideas i'd shoot them all edit them.

um obviously distribute it i guess kind. of in a way market it by promoting it. putting it out there and trying to get. people to watch my stuff but i also had. a. uh a book coming out. which i was working on uh we'd also me. and casper did a feature. um with bbc studios like a sort of uh. like a straight dvd kind of like film of. us sort of traveling around in a camp. fan so there's a lot of things going on. and obviously lots of other different. things in the background. and it got to a point where i was like.

my life as a roof thatcher before all. this was there was no. feeling like this how i'm feeling now it. was just i had my s. i had such a solid structure like up at. this time go to work until this time go. back unload the straw load up the van. again go and see my nan give her the. paper. go home go to the gym and then that was. it was that was it. there's been a lot of times throughout. my life where i've looked back and. thought that was like i think i think. it's because that's that structure it.

does make you feel like it's. i i was living a more. yeah yeah. hand on heart. do you think if you'd never started. youtube you'd be happier overall over. the last 10. years hand or not. i think i i'm more happy the route i've. gone down. as well i think because the thing is i. can't i can never. sort of. as much as you know i.

i've had my struggles online and stuff. actually the online has also been such a. big help for me and especially like in. terms of like youtube and the way that. i've worked with them and personally and. like had support from them has been. incredible so i'm very fortunate as a. creator on youtube that you youtube. actually give me a lot of support and. i've had a good team around me that have. given me the support. and the friendships and the family that. i've had around me. although i went through a time where i. did struggle a lot and i i had that burn.

out and i had that sort of anxiety and. worry and self-doubt and stuff. i've. had a really good. set of people around me that have helped. me sort of get past that even with the. the roof thatching you know. i i look back on it now because i'm. so so far down a different path but if i. went back to thatching i'm sure there. were times where i'd be up on the roof. when it's like sideways rain wind. freezing cold thinking like what am i. doing up here like so i think it's all.

sort of comparative to where you are at. certain points in your life did your. love for youtube shift though because. obviously. you start posting less frequently on. your main channel yep. to the point where. it and it's funny because as someone. that's kind of observed the whole. youtube journey over the years there. seems to have been this point which. you've literally spoken about where. multiple youtubers appear to have kind. of vanished a little bit yeah and then. they end up posting a video saying. like almost giving their reason why.

saying they're going to come back yes. there's another one a year later saying. they're going to come back and they. never come back what is going on i think. i mean i have to see i can't speak for. everyone but for myself personally i i. think it's. partly because. your my audience have all grown up or. the audience i had back then they've all. got older they've all they're all in. there sort of i presume a lot of ones. started watching me when they were 14. 15. they're all now in their 20s they've. got their own stuff going on and the. stuff that i.

knew how to make back then is not what. they want to consume now as content it's. what i sort of gauge from it. i have like i have i have a guess as. well which is i think very much in line. with what you're saying i think that the. algorithm might have changed a little. bit yeah and i think that. i think a few things happen when that. happens so i think as a creator you get. psychologically demotivated yeah when. you're doing the same work and you're. not getting you're getting uh basically. you're getting a vote from your audience. to say which sounds like we don't like. it yeah anymore yeah and then it seemed.

like that happened all at the same time. with that initial sort of youtube cohort. and so a lot of them. because they saw declining numbers and. whatever they were making decided to try. other formats and other things and go. into other places i remember back in the. day like youtube seemed to be much. shorter form videos yep and now you have. a lot of long-form stuff a lot of. 55-minute hour joe rogan three-hour. videos on there yes there's always like. rumors that go around being like oh this. you heard the latest this is what now. you know this is what the algorithm. wants and stuff and i i agree with that.

to a degree but i also think. you've got the people that take it to. the extreme sometimes and like you know. the reason why i'm not doing this. because of this and i i never want to. solely blame it i think that's why i. don't always blame it on an algorithm. this might go back to me being the sort. of. self-doubting kind of imposter syndrome. type vibe again of thinking like it's. not just because of this mechanical. thing that goes on in the background. it's also because. i need to switch things up and change my.

you know who i am online or what i'm. doing online. uh i need to move i need to shift what. i'm doing with the times and i think. that's. harder. than i. then i thought when i was sort of like. i'm gonna change my stuff now and it's i. think it's. more difficult than i thought was there. a point where you you saw numbers. decline and you thought where you start. to think wait a minute this this is not. how it used to be yeah yeah when was. that it was. right before i.

said yes to doing strictly. i thought you know it'll be fine i'll. get used to it and try with different. content and things and i started to post. different stuff and it just wasn't doing. performing as well as it used to and i'd. always kind of like prepared myself for. it like my dad actually gave me a good. piece of advice and looking back on it. of being like. this what you're doing now is great but. you know in the future it's only gonna. get more people trying to do what you do. and there's many people there's always.

there's always people out there that. have. new talents and stuff and it's gonna. it's gonna change over time and there's. gonna be people that come into this that. have got. you know not saying that. yeah there's many people that come into. it that. have got. super talent and stuff that's completely. dominate and things in it so you unless. you've got really got something about. you. you're gonna. struggle to keep up because it's gonna. get bigger and bigger and i kind of like. i look back now i'm like actually. a lot of what he said.

makes sense you know there is you know. it's that's the sort of way it's gone. how do you define yourself now. who are you now like as a from a. self-definition point not that that's. something i like to do to myself i don't. like to self-define but if you if you're. someone if someone asks you to write a. bio what'd you say. it's one of the hardest things for me to. answer it genuinely is if if i'm ever. asked to. sort of sum myself up what i do i just i. think it's like my instagram bio is like. i. i am creative or something like that.

because i don't i find it so hard to. sort of pigeonhole myself as this is. what i do and this is what i am um. so i'd say like. it's it's difficult i just like to say. i'm just a creative person. i am so excited to announce our new. sponsor for this podcast and that is. blue jeans by verizon for any of you. that aren't already familiar with blue. jeans they are a video conferencing and. collaboration tool who offer an. immersive communication experience that. drives pretty unparalleled employee and. customer engagement experiences me and.

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excited for for some time to announce. this partnership and in the coming weeks. i'll explain the features and really why. it's perfect for you if you haven't. considered using or switching over to. blue jeans yet but if you can't wait. head over to bluejeans.com to learn more. honestly it's been one of the real sort. of game changers in my business. you wrote a book. right. about being outside and in nature. it seems like a fairly unobvious. topic for someone like yourself to write. about so it's very compelling.

why why did you decide to write about. this about the importance of going. outside during. the lockdown we're all sort of looking. for things to keep us busy and and i. like we mentioned before i love hobbies. i'm always looking for things to do and. i had like a balcony that ran off from. my living area. and i got into. gardening in that small little balcony. of the things i could do at the time and. the things i had lying around i got. really into it and i was like sort of. like caring for.

a plant i'm just trying to make a plant. grow or putting time and effort into. something else. um and and sort of not being in the sort. of. the whirlwind was going on online on our. phones and stuff at that time. disconnecting myself from that and sort. of reconnecting myself with something as. simple as as nature. made me feel so good it took away all. kind of anxieties um. i just felt very calm and very like. it took me back to.

my childhood in a sense of like how i. grew up i was very lucky to grow up in a. in a. little uh cottage type place um so. getting all that thoughts it's it's part. memoir i talk a lot about like growing. up in the countryside and like and sort. of things actually living in london and. and all that kind of stuff but also. a part practical guide of hopefully. giving some tips for other people in. terms of like how. they can find their own balance that. suits them in terms of the real world. and social media world it's quite a.

personal pivot isn't it going from being. a youtuber who's uploading across three. youtube channels and is glued to a. screen to. standing here holding these pots. yeah yeah. yeah it is very different i think but. that's. that's kind of like how i've been i like. to separate out. like those two things and what i've. realized is separating those two things. out is really beneficial for me. um. but it's but it's in no way sort of. saying that social media is bad and this.

kind of thing you shouldn't be on social. media because like it's a tool that we. all use and we kind of like. need to use that in terms of like we've. got a personal computer in our hands. it's kind of like an extension of our. arm we use it for so many things so it's. not saying like don't use your phone. your phone is evil it's more kind of. like. finding a balance that's right for you. that. is going to help you feel better about. yourself mentally. on that point of thinking um. mental health has become an increasing. conversation over the last uh 10 years.

social media has played it's kind of sat. in the middle of that debate um being. someone that started a big social media. business i talk about this a lot um and. obviously you know people when we talk. about social media and mental health. they'll say well you made all your money. from it so. and and my rebuttal is always the same. which is. you know if i if i've spent 10 years. within it and i knew there was something. wrong and i didn't tell you. yeah i'd make me even more of an [ __ ]. right just because it had made me money. so having having been like very deep in. social media over the last 10 years i. think we're probably more qualified than. most talk about the impacts it has on us.

um the mind for better and for worse. when you were going through your hard. times on social media when you were. having those real anxious moments where. um you've written a few things about how. there was about a two-year period with. when when you'd really got going where. you just had this overwhelming sensation. that felt like it was impossible to. escape. wha why are you telling anybody about it. were you talking to people were you. speaking to zoe your family and saying. i'm getting anxiety right now yeah i'm. also my sister cause my sister has. suffered with it a lot throughout her. career um so.

i. i found it i was very lucky that i could. speak to her about it and um and. obviously got a therapist as well um. that was recommended to me um through my. sister do you remember that first time. you spoke to her about it. she was she was very good about it to be. fair because she's been through a lot of. that stuff she sort of. um straight away made me feel better. in knowing that. at least. sort of acknowledging what it is and. then bringing some sort of understanding. to it. um but it definitely definitely helped.

having someone so close to me like my. sister being able to sort of help with. that. and you spoke to a therapist about this. yes going to see a therapist has a lot. of stigma surrounding it so especially. men are often very reluctant to do that. because i think especially once upon a. time going and seeing a therapist meant. that i was. crazy oh yeah yeah so. your journey to actually getting into. the into therapy can you talk to me. about that process and what.

pushed you ultimately to take that step. yeah i think for me it was. i was. i never saw it as a. sort of. i i don't know whether it's because of. my. sister. once again like through everything sort. of in a way sort of paving the way. through that of like being like. she was. um seeing single therapist so i already. felt like with my sister my big sister. can do it then then i can i mean she you.

know if she can do it i can i could do. it so i was quite lucky in a sense it. was actually a very easy process for me. what has therapy done for you. practically is there anything that's it. really helped me with that particular. challenge that i had. it's made me. realize that i. am a i've got a thing about people. pleasing i'm a people pleaser. so i. i often. feel like i can't be my unapologetic.

self in a situation. without. risking causing offense to someone i'm. like terrified of upsetting someone or. saying the wrong thing i'm learning. through therapy that how to sort of. manage that and to acknowledge it first. and foremost and then to sort of and. we're working on that at the moment of. trying to sort of work on like why. i have this thing of. being worried so much about what other. people think about what i do. it's a tough business to be in if you if.

you have that as a kind of. predisposition has your therapist been. able to offer you any advice about. overthinking at all. yes. uh. more so in like the sort of anxiety. side of things there's three there's. there was i think two or three points. that she suggested and it's like. de-de-catastrophizing. the catastrophe. um using time to separate so like if i'm. if i'm feeling anxious. i've got a sort of.

the way you think about time helps for. example i was at um. chelsea flower show recently with my mum. and um. i was i was engaged in conversation with. someone else and i was but my mind was. thinking like there's so much going on. around me and i started to feel anxious. i just needed to get out of there and it. started to make me feel sick that i was. like i couldn't leave and i and i had um. i remember had a glass of champagne in. my hand and i was like i don't know what. to do because i can't i was starting to. think of all these different scenarios. of being like i can't just be sick here.

because i'm in like someone's garden. i can't just like i can't just run away. and leave big conversations i'm so. worried about going to them sorry. i can't listen to what you're saying. right now because my mind is. panicking i need to go. i was so worried about how they would. think of me so it's like all that going. on but if you. what i've learned is that if you take. that and think this conversation is max. going to last five minutes. that helps and he's like no that after. those five minutes you can walk over. there and you can be on your own and do. this kind of stuff and it's going to.

help so it's like kind of like if you're. going into something that you think oh. it's going to be a five hour. thing or exactly two hour exam you break. it down into like chunks so it's like. i've got okay this two-hour exam is. uh. four 30-minute chunks. and that that starts to make me feel. less. anxious about things and then also sort. of thinking ahead of that whole thing so. you've got an exam thinking well after. this i'm gonna go and do this this and. this and this and when you're thinking. about things further in the future it. actually starts to.

make. make me feel more calm diane. you met her on strictly yes. strictly gave you a lot didn't it yeah. it did yeah yeah. what was really interesting is that was. your first girlfriend yeah. that's that's first yeah first real. girlfriend first real proper girlfriend. yeah at what age. 27 26 yeah i wonder if. had you met her outside of strictly if. you would be together. yeah because it seems like you would.

have done a pretty good job of. overthinking your way. it's we have the same conversation we're. like how lucky it was in a way that. we were. even punting together because when your. partner's if you're if we weren't even. partners on the show we're on the same. show we still say we may not have got. together because when you're actually. with your partners you don't see each. other throughout the week. so. we're like this we sort of see it as. like the stars sort of realigned there. and we and but it wasn't um.

it was it was an odd sort of uh. situation i guess it's not it's not how. i thought it would happen i used to be. quite like nervous about sort of getting. a girlfriend publicly because. i would always think what. because i had at the time i had this. sort of uh. large female young female demographic. that were. that really into sort of what i did and. things like that and i was kind of like. i've seen through like friends i've got. girlfriends you know and when they. introduce their girlfriends to their.

audience it's a bit kind of like a i. always thought it would be a very. private thing and in my head the whole. time i was like you'll be very private. and it's actually end up being the. complete opposite it's like you can now. watch the moment we met which is. kind of unusual. it seems from just speaking to you today. and getting to know you but it does seem. like that was the perfect way for you to. get past because you were forced. together yeah yeah yeah and it's you. know what i mean in the context of the. show you were forced to spend time with. each other you weren't there to fall in. love but they put you together to do. this very quite intimate thing very deep.

journey over many many months yep and it. feels like from from just understanding. you a little bit that was probably the. best way for you to get past a lot of. that sort of talking yourself out of it. 100 and you know what you you you see. the i feel like. on that in that environment anyway. especially for me it's like we saw i. feel like we saw the best and the worst. in each other over that sort of 16 week. period. there had been times where we were going. to training in like things we weren't. going to plan without going home and we. you know stress. the further you go in that competition. the higher the.

pressure is and the stress gets and. things like that so we we saw the best. and the worst of each other within those. 16 excuse me everything is 16 weeks. and um and i was and afterwards i was. kind of like. when we even sort of like had time to. really kind of sort of address. things like posts. um and be like i actually kind of want. to spend more time with you because i. felt like i kind of i've seen the best. and the worst and i can you know i'm. happy with that and it is vice versa and.

so um so yeah that's how it. you know sort of how it sort of happened. so the show ends yeah you get to the. final you do very well. and then fun you did the tour yes which. everyone a lot of people do and they. love that process as well when did you. decide that. your dance partner was not just a dance. partner and was. a girlfriend it was it was actually it. was before the tour before the tour was. before the tour yeah it was after the. show finished. um and like a few days after we had time. to sort of like we obviously missed each.

other because we didn't see each other. so after we realized like i do miss like. miss spending time with you and things. like that so obviously we had a. conversation had a sort of decided and. to see each other more often and things. like that and we actually then went. uh went away. to a place in the new forest wait a. minute that was very quick you had a. conversation on whatsapp or in person no. no like in person okay so you met up a. few times yeah yeah yeah and then. straight to the phone and then uh we. went yeah we went uh we went to.

the new forest like a little trip right. um. and i remember we were getting like. followed because there's a lot of like. um. sort of there was a lot of like. attention on us at the time i think. and um and so yeah we were getting we're. getting followed by. a guy like i'm very like sort of. aware of like what's going on around me. and stuff i think it's i think it's just. from the career that i've had in the. last ten years i don't know but i'm like. i was like that guy who's part i could. see from my flat i was like that guy's.

parked there he's a. paparazzi paparazzi yeah and um. this is going to sound really like. really wanky but i i i was lent to aston. martin that that morning. so i went down and i was like this is. the best i should do things like this. more often i get. lent cars like this and i was like and. so i went down and um. parked it and he must have seen me parks. and you knew what car to follow and. later on that day i was driving along. and i looked to the review mirror i was. like i think we're being followed. and then um i recognized the like the.

license plate was something to do with. the car. and um and it put me on so much edge i. was like driving along thinking like i. actually can't concentrate on driving. because yeah i know this person is just. trying to follow us. um. so. i i um. i yeah i sort of turned off from where i. was trying to go to because i don't want. to actually turn up to where we're going. so i was like trying to like show you. shake him off a little bit so i was like. right diane you know how to work. bluetooth yeah put on the james bond.

theme song. and we had that moment of just like. trying to sort of avoid. um this this guy. who was following us and we did manage. to do it obviously very safely did the. pictures come out in the paper no no. nothing luckily because we were moving. on the move. um but but yeah i remember that very. clearly of that kind of like a moment of. being like. this is not what. i'm used to at all don't know if i like. this but but then yeah that's where we.

sort of. yeah that's where you're a couple years. into the relationship now yeah you live. together right yes yeah. how's it going yeah it's going good yeah. going really well it's. it's really nice because we are both. very like she's also one of the. professional dancers so she's still very. much involved in the show and and when. the show is not on she's involved in the. tours and things like that so a lot of. our time is separate and we had one year. obviously 2019 was a year we were like. together.

and. but we had our own stuff that we're. working on it's a very busy year for me. and also a very busy year for her with. like tours and and back then even like i. think they do like cruise like i did. like cruise ships and stuff as well so. like. loads of different tours and stuff so we. were away a lot of each a lot of the. time but then when we come together. it's so nice because we've got so much. to there's they say like distance makes. the heart grow fonder and all that kind. of stuff and i i genuinely kind of i do. believe in that i think especially in. this sort of situation like.

although we are away from each other. a fair bit because of our work. commitments and stuff. it works really really well and like. when we do when we are together. it's nice just to spend quality time. together. um. but yeah no i'm absolutely loving it. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the previous guest asks a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're asking it for. do you remember. a moment. where you realized. that you loved your job.

when was it and why. and was there a moment when you realized. you hated your job. when was it and why oh. good question. um. the moment that i remember that i loved. my job. was. there's there's a lot of little moments. that stick out but i think. this is going back to like the old. youtube gang so like me my sister um. alfie marcus butler jim tanya a lot of.

that kind of. the brickery we were called back in the. day um we got invited to. harry potter world. um. and i'm. i've i'll admit i'm not the biggest. harry potter fan but. just being around like having like a day. out with with that group that first sort. of because it's kind of like our first. sort of big group out somewhere and just. being around these people we're all. going through. the same situation which i really. appreciate the fact that others people.

within this group that i could chat to. and speak to about. what was going on and it was such a new. and exciting time and we're all kind of. on that journey up. um and i remember that's all that memory. is always stuck in my head and there's. weirdly there's a there's a vlog i've. vlogged we all vlogged it so it's like. it's actually been documented so we can. go back and watch it in the future and. stuff but. um that really sticks out so what about. the second part of that question the so. a moment sorry a moment where i hated my. job yeah.

i guess it was the time where. i had that burnout feeling and i was. i had so much going on i just thought. you know what i actually don't really. know if i want to do this anymore and i. i remember telling my manager at the. time. um alex. uh. that i was like i just don't know if i. want to do it there's too much going on. i don't i actually. can't really. handle it i'm you know and i'm thinking. about. my old job and how much sort of simpler. that was and thinking like it's like but.

i had all these things going for my head. of like that thing of like don't be. ungrateful but also i am struggling with. it. um and i guess that moment. would feel like the time that i hated it. but it didn't last very long because. my manager at the time alex she sent me. a like a care package she like went out. above and beyond and sent me this care. package of like a a book and. um weirdly it was a harry potter book. which as you know not not the biggest. fan but. at the time it was exactly like i said. it's exactly what i needed um.

so but right before she saved the day it. was um. yeah tough sorry about that that time i. think. um joe thank you so much thank you for. your time thank you for writing a really. important book i think thank you these. kind of messages. in the digital overstimulated world. we're living in especially our. generation the generation that are. coming are very very important and. they're very simplifying which i love. because it's very easy to write very. complex things that are um that try and. make things more complicated than they. are in order to make yourself sound. super smart or to try and trick people.

to buy something or to think you're a. scientist but i love stuff that is. simplifying it makes it much more. accessible. um and i think that is that is why i. love this particular book so much but i. also really appreciate your honesty. because you're talking about topics and. themes that on one hand very few people. will ever get to experience with the. crazy career that you had in youtube and. that you're having in the media and all. of these things but but also topics that. are not always easy to talk about which. is. the difficult harder times and and that. balance is exactly why we do what we do. here so thank you for your time thank.

you very much pleasure thanks for having. me i can't see wait to see what happens. next so. safe. i had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend. came upstairs yesterday when i was. having a shower and she said to me that. she tried the heel protein shake which. lives on my fridge over there and she. said it's amazing low calories you get. your 20 odd grams of protein you get. your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's. nutritionally complete in the protein. space there's lots of things but it's. hard to find something that is nice. especially when consumed just with water. and that is nutritionally complete the.

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