Graham Hancock: They May Have Secretly Found Antarctica 300 Years Before Us!

This could be the last time I speak. about myself, my work, because there's a. chance that I might not make it off the. operating table this month. And a. journalist who has very bad blood. towards me has been trying to publish a. story on me for more than 2 years now, and it will come out in the next [music]. month or two, and I didn't want that to. be the last word on my life. >> What do you want the last word of your. life to be? >> I'm here to communicate about the. possibility of a major forgotten episode. in human story. I'm talking about a lost.

civilization. >> So, most people think civilization. started 6,000 years ago? >> Yes. >> But you believe there's strong evidence. that there could have been a previous. civilization? >> 20,000 [music] years ago, and I'm going. to present the evidence for that here, Stephen. And it suggests a golden age. where there was no violence, no [music]. cruelty, where great healers and sages. were at work. They're extremely. sophisticated. [music] However, if you. follow the myths further, as I've done, you find something odd happens. You find. that they stepped away from the original. purity and become a culture that begins. to impose its power on others around the.

world. And then, sewn into those myths. is scientific information which record a. gigantic cataclysm all but wiping out. the human race. >> If what you're saying is true, what does. that mean for our lives? I guess also. our future. >> Well, there's always this feeling in the. myths that we brought [music] this upon. ourselves. And when I look at our. civilization today, I see a civilization. [music] that ticks all the mythological. boxes for the next lost civilization, and that we are most likely to be the. cause of that cataclysm ourselves, unless we wake up.

>> Graham Hancock, what will you care about. on your last day? >> Most of all, >> This is super interesting to me. My team. gave me this report to show me how many. of you that watch this show subscribe, and some of you have told us, according. to this, that you are unsubscribed from. the channel randomly. So, a favor to ask. all of you, please could you check right. now if you've hit the subscribe button. if you are regular viewer of the show. and you like what we do here. We're.

approaching quite a significant landmark. on this show in terms of a subscriber. number. So, if there was one simple, free thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here, to keep this. show free, to keep it improving year. over year and week over week, it is just. to hit that subscribe button and to. double-check if you've hit it. Only. thing I'll ever ask of you. Do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll. do. I'll make sure. every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder. and harder to bring you the guests and. conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that promise since. the very beginning of The Diary of a. CEO, and I will not let you down. Please.

help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get. on with the show. >> [music]. >> Graham Hancock, I guess the first. question I wanted to ask you is what is. it you've committed the last more than. 30 years of your life to understanding? >> What it is is a a puzzle. I'm puzzled by aspects of the human. past. There could be. and I think there's a lot to suggest. there was a major forgotten episode in.

the human story. That's why I refer to. us as a species with amnesia. And when I. use that phrase, I need to give credit. to Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote a book. called Mankind in Amnesia. I think we. are a species with amnesia. I think we. have forgotten something very important. in our own past. And when I turn to the. experts, I find much of what they say. very interesting and very useful. But. some of what they say extremely. unsatisfactory and and not responding to.

the problems that that I have in the. past. And that's led me to to take my. own approach to the past, to look at. that, and and to offer. uh readers, cuz I'm mainly an author, occasionally make TV shows, to offer. them an alternative point of view, which. is rational and and and solidly based, but which is contrary. to key aspects of the mainstream. narrative. We only have decipherable. written scripts from the last 5 and 1/2.

thousand years maximum. Before that, we. don't have any any writing that we can. at any rate read. Go back 10, 12, 15, 20,000 years, all you can base it on. from an archaeological point of view is. what they can dig out of the ground. And. I think what they're missing, the. ancients did leave us memories of what. they went through. We have myths and. traditions and scriptures from all. around the world which record a gigantic.

cataclysm affecting the human race and. all but wiping out the human race. Everybody knows the story of the flood. of Noah. Of course, the flood of Noah is. just an one example of hundreds like. that of stories from around the world. Uh archaeologists pour scorn on Plato's. story of Atlantis. Uh but Atlantis is. another of those stories that remembers. a global flood that wiped out a former. era of existence leaving only a few. survivors. And the archaeological. response to them is.

there was a local river flood. They exaggerated it. It was a big deal. for them, so they said it happened to. the whole world. And I'm sick of. archaeologists saying that. This is the. memory banks of our species. This is the. record the only record we have of a. period before 6,000 years ago. And we. shouldn't despise it and scorn it as. primitive superstition. We should say. what can we find in here that we can. coordinate with scientific facts that. we're aware of. Let's see if there's. something to this rather than just.

dismissing it. Many of these myths. contain. imagery and a series of numbers. A very. important academic study published in. the 1960s, a book called Hamlet's Mill. by Giorgio de Santillana, Professor of. the History of Science at Massachusetts. Institute of Technology and head of the. foundation Professor of history of. science. This is not me speaking. This. is major major historians of science in. the 1960s. They found encoded in those. myths numbers and imagery that could. only relate to one thing and that's an.

obscure astronomical phenomenon called. the precession of the equinoxes. I'm not. going to go into the technical details, but to observe it and to record it and. to predict it to predict its effects in. the future involves very precise. astronomical observations maintained. over a very long period of time, hundreds and hundreds of years at least. So here we have myths of a global. cataclysm. There is just so much else. There are ancient maps that show the. world as it looked during the ice age. again dismissed as just total. coincidence and not significant by. archaeology. I feel that archaeology has.

failed miserably in providing a. nurturing satisfying answer to the. questions we all have. >> So when you say global cataclysm, what does that mean? Means that some. something hit the planet, there was we. were wiped out? >> Yeah, there there there are a number of. options and again I need to stress this. because because there's so much. propaganda in this business I'll be. immediately accused of lunatic fringe. The solid science that's been done on. this. is twofold. One aspect of it, the one.

that I think it I find most persuasive. is called the Younger Dryas impact. hypothesis and this is a mainstream. hypothesis, but it is severely. criticized within academia. The. hypothesis is that. >> about 20,000 years ago. >> [snorts]. >> a very large comet. came in from deep space and went into. orbit around the sun. This would be a comet of the diameter of. 100 km, maybe 200. Comes in, gets.

captured by the sun's gravity, goes into. an orbit. That orbit crosses the orbit. of the earth. While you're dealing with one large. object, the chances of getting hit are. extremely low. It would be very bad if. you did, but very low. Trouble is. nobody disputes this. Once comets are. caught by the gravitational field of a. very large planet or of a sun, they. start to break up into multiple parts, and this is what happened to the Younger. Dryas comet. Instead of being a single. bullet, it became a shotgun blast. It.

became thousands and thousands of. objects, of which we've cataloged quite. a lot. Numbers of them, comet Encke is. the best known bit of that. former comet. Many of the academics who. look at this think that comet Encke, which is about 6 km in diameter and. which does cross the orbit of the Earth, they think that that was the source. comet. But whereas the other team are. saying, "No, that's a bit of the source. comet. There were many other bits as. well." And 12,800 years ago, 12,860. approximately, the Earth went into a.

storm of these fragments. None of them. big enough to compare with the object. that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million. years ago, but all over the Well, the Earth is. turning, this stuff comes in. They found. it in the west coast of North America, they found it in Belgium, and they found. it as far east as Syria. So, it's like. the Earth turns and this stuff is just. coming in. Most of it is blowing up in. the air. It isn't even hitting the. ground. But an airburst from an object. that might be 100 m in diameter is. equivalent to a very substantial nuclear.

blast. So, their argument is the Earth. was hit by. a comet storm. And this they then argue, and I think they're right, uh explains. what happened then. Because 12,800 years. ago, we were still in the ice age, uh but the Earth was coming out of the. ice age. In fact, for about 1,000, maybe. 2,000 years before that, the Earth had. been getting warmer, getting quite nice. And you would normally expect that to. continue. But then suddenly, 12,800.

years ago, give or take 60 years, there's a huge interruption. There's a. radical change. The earth, instead of. warming, it suddenly goes back into a. massive deep freeze. And this is the. time when all the famous. big animals of the ice age, the. megafauna, are wiped out. The woolly. mammoths, the mastodons, the giant. sloths, these things like 14 ft tall, you know, they're all they're all wiped. out in that window around about 12,800. years ago. And most important of all is.

a very mysterious sea level rise that. occurs then. This you would not expect when the earth. is entering a cold phase. Normally, when earth enters a cold. phase, ice accumulates on the existing. ice caps. It doesn't melt and go into the sea. So, the next thing is, how do we explain. this sudden rise in sea levels at the. beginning of Younger Dryas? It shouldn't. have happened. The comet theory explains it perfectly. The the the mass, the impact, the heat, the air bursts, that would have been. enough to send the ice sheets into.

meltdown and to. cause this pulse of meltwater. Then the. freeze sets in. You have about 1,200 years of freezing. desperately cold conditions. And then. again, 11,600 years ago, whoomph, it. suddenly warms up. I mean, these are. radical climate changes. They're beyond. anything that's happening now. And uh I. I think explanations are needed for. them. And because 12,800 years ago may. sound a long time ago, but it's really. yesterday in the human story. Uh so,

something very big. happened to the earth and happened to. our ancestors 12,800 years ago. If it. wasn't a comet, another theory that's. been put forward is a radical change in. solar activity. This might have been. involved with it as well. I. don't find that as persuasive as the. Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. And you. know, maybe some other explanation will. come up. But what nobody disputes is. that the Younger Dryas was a. catastrophe. Uh it was global. uh and and it had huge effects. >> You um you chose intentionally to come.

and have this conversation today? >> W-. >> today? >> Well, I've been quite unwell, really. noticeably unwell since. January, February this year, particularly very. very short of breath. It's It's because. of the one of the failed valves in my my. heart is. causing blood to regurgitate inside the. heart rather than pumping it through the. body. And that means that oxygenated. blood is not getting to my lungs. I. probably would live another two or three. years without the surgery, maybe maybe.

even five. But the quality of life would. be very low. I I can't even walk up. three stairs without being being. exhausted at the moment. So, I've. definitely decided to to have the. surgery. Why am I doing this interview. now rather than postponing it until. after the surgery and I've recovered? Well, there's a tiny chance, absolutely. minuscule chance, that I might not make it off the. operating table. >> This month? >> Yeah. This month. And if that were the case, this would be. the last time I've spoken about myself,

my work, my life, challenges I faced. in an open forum like this. And And And. I I. I choose to do that, and I'm going to. say specifically why. without giving without mentioning names. I choose to do that because a journalist. who has very bad blood towards me. has been trying to publish a story on me. for more than two years now. And it will come out in the next in the. next month or two. And I didn't want. that to be the last word on my life.

That's why I'm here, Stephen. >> What do you want the last word of your. life to be? >> I [sighs and gasps] would. I would hope that. people will come to understand that I'm. not the person that. a very small minority. of archaeologists have mobilized social. media to present me as. I'm not a. grifter. I'm not a hoaxer. I'm not a con. man. I'm deeply committed to this. I've. devoted my my to it for more than for. more than 30 years. I'm passionate about. it. It matters [clears throat] to me.

And I think again, I'll be laughed at. for saying this, but I feel called to do. this. I feel I. I feel it's my obligation and my. responsibility to do this. >> How is that disputed? Cuz I I I guess I. need to understand human history to. understand why. the the the fundamental belief that you. have that there was a civilization that. we aren't talking about. >> Mhm. >> I I'd like to be clear. >> It's not a belief. Um this is another is. a mistake that my that my critics of. often make. They they they think that.

I'm dealing with some sort of belief. system or some sort of cult here. No, I'm not. I'm I'm just puzzled. I'm just. puzzled by the past and I'm puzzled by. the memories that have been. passed down to us. And I'm puzzled that. those memories. concur all around the world on a serious. cataclysmic event. >> What is it that the your your people. that aren't puzzled and are certain. belief? >> Yeah, they think that um glacial lakes. in North America uh gradually grew in. size and over spilled the ice dams that.

held them in place and that the um water. from those lakes, some of it went into. the Atlantic Ocean and cut the Gulf. Stream. I don't dispute that. Glacial lakes were. involved, but those lakes were filled up. at a. massive speed. Nobody disputes that the. Younger Dryas was a cataclysmic event. It's just that the degree of the. cataclysm that's disputed and what. caused it that's disputed. >> But everyone agrees that humans are. 300 15,000 years old.

>> at present. When I started on this quest. back back in the late '80s, early '90s, it was felt that. anatomically modern human beings had not. existed for more than 50,000 years. Very. recent, really. But this turned out to. be complete rubbish because anatomically. modern humans are much older than 50,000. years ago. We have 196,000. year-old anatomically modern human. remains from Ethiopia. And then finally. 315,000.

years ago, a recent find in Jebel Irhoud. in Morocco, again anatomically modern humans. So we. can say that. if we define ourselves by. our anatomy, uh brain size, capacity of the skull, if we define. ourselves in those ways, we've been. around for at least 315,000 years and. probably much longer. That's That's just. an accident of discovery. And that's one. of the things that puzzles me. If we're.

anatomically modern, if we've got all. the modern kit, if we've got the same. brains, we've got the same neurology, everything is there, why do we wait. more than 300,000 years to establish. something recognizable as a human. civilization? Why do we wait so long? We. got all the kit. There's evidence that. that our ancestors were aware of. agriculture, just chose not to use it. much much much earlier than that. The. complex of. events that leads to a city-based.

civilization, which is the kind of civilization we. have now all over the world, that you. can only really trace that back to 6,000. years ago. Yes, you can say that before 6,000 years. ago there was build-up to what became. the high civilizations. But my question is why not much earlier? Why. Why did we wait until that moment? And I. don't find a satisfactory answer to that. question, except perhaps we didn't wait. Perhaps we're missing part of our story.

And when I say a lost civilization, I do. not mean a civilization like ours. I do. not mean an industrial civilization. I. don't mean they had cell phones or flew. to the moon or any of that I. think they were very different. civilization from ours, but they had. conquered a number of peaks. And one of. those peaks was navigation and ocean. seafaring, hence the survival of maps. which show the world as it looked during. the ice age. And another was astronomy,

uh and another really important. breakthrough evidenced by by the ancient. maps, but particularly a category of. maps called the Portolanos, is accurate relative longitudes. This is. the Orontius Finaeus map. It shows. Antarctica. uh right there. Uh and and um. this is interesting cuz this map was. drawn in 1531. Uh the problem is that our civilization. didn't discover Antarctica until 1820. So, its appearance on a map drawn in.

1521, particularly when we know that the map. was based on older source maps, and the. mapmaker tells us in his own legend that. he has uncovered material previously. hidden in darkness, when we find that, uh we have to begin to wonder what is. what is going on here. Had somebody. found Antarctica long before long before. we did, uh and mapped it with extremely accurate. relative longitudes. And that's. important because our civilization.

didn't crack the longitude problem until. the mid-18th century. What that meant. was that if you're on a vessel sailing. west or east, uh you might be 300 mi. closer to a coastline than you think you. are. And suddenly, you're on it in the. night and you're dead. Once you've got. longitude worked out, you know exactly. where you are. And we didn't get that. until 1750, 1760s there about with. Harrison's chronometer. So, finding good. longitudes on very ancient maps is. another puzzle that I don't think. archaeologists solved.

>> So, you think there could have been a. civilization 20,000 years ago which was. before this Younger Dryas moment where. um I mean, I've got this photo here. which I'll throw up on the screen. I think you say is evidence that. something took place. >> It is. That's That's the Younger Dryas. boundary. And I'm with Alan West, who's. one of the scientists from the from the. comet research group who are working on. the Younger Dryas hypothesis. And our. hands are on that black stripe running. through the middle of the draw. And that. is soot. That is evidence of wildfires. burning.

It's full of nanodiamonds, tiny little. diamonds, microscopic size, which are. classic product of comet impacts, microspherules, some platinum, some. iridium. All signatures of a cometary. impact. And there it is. It's about 5 in. thick. That layer is the Younger Dryas. boundary layer. It dates to 12,800 years. ago. >> So, for anyone that can't see, it's just. like a slice of earth and there's this. black line going through through the. earth. >> We're in a draw here where a river has. cut a channel. And it's exposed the. sides of the channel. And on the sides.

of the channel, we can see this black. stripe running through. And that is. precisely the Younger Dryas boundary. >> And the current hypothesis is from a lot. of archaeologists is there wasn't a. human civilization before this point, 12,000 years ago. But you believe. there's strong evidence that there could. have been. >> Yes. >> So, civilization then in your definition. of the word, how do you define that? A. group of people gathering and working. together? >> Fundamentally, it involves It involves. the willing organization or the. unwilling organization of labor. If you. look at a site like Göbekli Tepe in.

Turkey, we have it on our timeline here. somewhere. It's 11,600. years old. This is really an. extraordinary site. It's a It's a very. sophisticated site. It's very large. It. consists of large T-shaped megaliths. that can weigh up to 20 tons. There are. precise astronomical alignments in it. This was not done by two or three people. working together. This was. Well, that's the Göbekli Tepe today. covered by a modern canopy to keep Fair.

enough to keep the the weather off it. cuz it was previously deliberately. buried by its builders. But of course, there's much more around. Hundreds and hundreds more pillars are. still underground. We know they're there. because of ground penetrating radar, but. they've not been excavated yet. So So. this was a major project. And. interestingly, the people who built. Göbekli Tepe at that at the time Göbekli. Tepe began, there was no agriculture. happening there. They were all. hunter-gatherers. >> Mhm. >> Nevertheless, they did something that.

archaeologists used to say. hunter-gatherers couldn't do. They. organized themselves. They made a huge. project. They implemented it and they. delivered it. And Göbekli Tepe is not. alone. It's one of dozens of sites like. that all over Anatolia in in in Turkey. This was a highly organized. sophisticated hunter-gatherer. civilization that was involved in making. this place. >> I'm I'm a little bit confused. So if the. ice age ended 11,700 years ago, >> Yeah. >> and Göbekli Tepe is 11,600 years ago,

>> Mhm. >> that means there's a 100-year gap. between the end of the ice age and. something as sophisticated as Göbekli. Tepe. >> Not exactly because because dates in. this frame they're not spot-on accurate. dates. Some will say the ice age ended. 11,600. Some will say it ended 11,700. years ago. But the fact is that in this. window, the world was warming up again. It was getting better. And that's when. this project was was created. And the. mystery is mystery for for. archaeologists anyway is that it was.

hunter-gatherers. And archaeologists are. now having to come to terms with that. You see, the idea was you had to have an. agricultural community first. in order to create projects like this. because that allows people to become. specialists. If you generate a food. surplus that you can rely on, then you. can take people with certain skills and. say focus on that. Become an astronomer. Become an architect. Become an engineer. We'll support you in doing that. That. was the idea and that was why it was. felt that something like Göbekli Tepe. couldn't be built until about 6,000.

years ago when there was widespread. agriculture, but that turned out not to. be true. Uh it was built by hunter-gatherers, but. within a thousand years of it being. built, agriculture becomes present in. that whole area. >> Mhm. >> Origins of agriculture are definitely. earlier than we've than we've been. taught. >> So, I I funny cuz I I don't know a lot. about the ice age, but humans survived. the ice age? >> Oh god, yes. We we we we did. It's just. It's just um. Where do you want to be during an ice.

age? That's the question. >> What are my options? >> If you were a rational being, which most. human beings are, you would immediately exclude northern. Europe. >> Mhm. >> Absolutely [clears throat]. no point in being in that frozen, miserable wilderness. >> Mhm. >> You'd immediately [clears throat]. exclude the northern part of North. America, too. No point in being there. It's just horrible at that time. Siberia, pretty rough. No, you'd look for the tropics. You'd go. you'd go down close to the equator. You'd go to the places that weren't.

affected by the ice age, that were. actually the best real estate on Earth. That's where you'd go. That's why uh if. we are looking for. a missing episode in the human story, we're wasting our time looking for it in. northern Europe or North America. Uh we. should be looking for it in Mexico. We. should be looking for it in India. We. should be looking for it in Indonesia. We should be looking for it uh. around Papua New Guinea. All of these.

areas that were that were really great. places to live during the ice age. That's That's the kind of place that the. sort of civilization I'm talking about. could have thrived. >> What is the difference, you know, cuz on. here it says the earliest known humans. were 300,000 odd years ago? >> Yeah. >> What is the difference between these. humans 300,000 years ago and the. civilization you're describing 20,000. years ago that you believe existed? >> Apart from what is perhaps wrongly. described as a slight refinement in. human features, natural selection. operating on what humans perceive as.

beauty, I don't know, but otherwise the. same. >> The same? >> The same, yeah. Yeah. And again, that's. not that's not disputed. Nobody's saying. that Jebel Irhoud human beings were. somehow different from us. They're. anatomically modern humans. >> But how did they live um. versus your definition of a. civilization? >> They lived a simple hunter-gatherer. life. >> Okay, in small groups. >> Yeah. But somehow. around 11,600 years ago. people started accumulating.

monuments that can only be made with. large groups and organized organized. labor. You've got to you you have to. have a system. You have to have play. can't build something like Göbekli Tepe. without planning it out in advance. You've got to draw it out somehow. There. has to be a plan. It's not something you. just wing. Uh so so there has to there's a missing. background to all of that which bothers. me. >> And again, so most people think. civilization started what, 6,000 years. ago? >> Yes, that would. that would be when civilizations become. archaeologically visible. So you have uh.

ancient Sumer, Mesopotamia. Uh which. roughly 3,500 I'm going to use BC. because everybody's familiar with that. There are roughly 3,500 BC. which is 5,500 years ago, approximately, we start seeing cities being built. We. start seeing the beginnings of writing. taking place round about the same time. The same thing is happening in Egypt. Maybe a couple of hundred years later, but the new work that's being done in. Egypt is pushing Egypt much closer to to.

Sumer. Narrowing that that window. Effectively, you can say that these two. civilizations become archaeologically. visible at the same time. And uh they're. not alone because on the other side of. the world in Peru uh there's a. civilization now recognized called the. Caral Supe civilization which built. pyramids uh which also goes back 5,500. years. Uh, and and this is one of the. mysteries I'm I'm looking at now is is. why we have these. apparently coincidental emergence of.

high civilizations in the same window. all around the world. Indus Valley. Civilization, roughly the same, 5,000. years old. Yeah, we're looking at Caral. here, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And these classic these The feature is. these circular plazas in front of them. and then the pyramid with her. And and uh, you know, these were not and. not expected in Peru. When. archaeologists think of Peru, they tend. to think of Machu Picchu, the Inca. civilization. That's what gets all the.

coverage. >> And that's 600 years ago. >> That's 600 years ago. That's yesterday. Whereas these Caral Supe pyramids, Caral, Aspero, Bandurria, Penico, these ones are. much older. Thousands of years older. They're extremely sophisticated. They're. built with an earthquake-proof. technology. They. instead of using blocks, they put small. stones in in textile bags. Um, those.

allow a certain amount of shifting, so. the thing doesn't collapse in an. earthquake. And this is 5,500 years old. getting on. So, again, not an. agricultural civilization at the at that. time. They're a hunter-gatherer. civilization. So, so archaeologists are. having to confront a reversal of their. model at the moment. And I think there's. room in that reversal of the model for a. forgotten episode in the human story. >> Tell me about this forgotten episode in. the human story. >> Yeah, it's uh, it's remembered it's.

remembered all around the world as a. golden age, where there was no violence, no cruelty. Um, where great healers and sages were. at work. Where powers that are scorned. in our society today, such as telepathy. and telekinesis, which are regarded as. completely non-existent by our. scientists, uh were regarded as a matter of fact of. life in in in this ancient world. That's. uh a civilization that emerged out of.

shamanism uh and. made something good. But then, if you follow the myths further as I've. done, you find something odd happens. You find. that they stepped away from the original. purity. That they've become. a culture that begins to impose its. power on others around the world. And. that's always given as the reason for. the cataclysm in the myths that that we.

angered the gods. It might have been. with our noise. It might have been with. our irreverence. We angered the gods and. they sent a flood. They weren't happy. with their creation. They wanted to. start again, wipe the slate clean. And. so there's this There's always this. feeling in the myths, and it's And I. can't explain it. I don't know what what. it comes from, but it's always there. Is that in some way we ourselves. brought this upon ourselves. >> Is this those people not understanding. the forces of Mother Nature.

and trying to sort of justify it as. uh. >> Or or perhaps a deeper understanding of. the forces of Mother Nature. >> Maybe. >> Perhaps the way that human beings are. operating in the world today um should. be. included amongst the forces of nature. We we are a geological force. Uh and. worse than that, we're a psychic force, which is full of anger and hatred and. suspicion and and and mutual. destruction. That's not going to be good. for nature. That's [laughter].

That's going to be disturbing. We're an. integrated system in my view. We we. we're not separate. Human beings are. part of all of this, and what we do. affects all of that. And that's what the. ancient myths seem to testify to. So, if I may finish on that, when I look at our civilization today, I. I don't want to go off on a rant, but. when I look at our civilization today, I. see a civilization that ticks all the. mythological boxes, every single one, for the next lost civilization. And I. envisage a situation.

10 or 15,000 years from now, when we. will be a myth, a fantasy, that our. our ancestors. actually could speak to one another on. opposite sides of the planet, that our. ancestors, they could fly to the moon. Uh, you know, they could go to the. depths of the ocean. The archaeologists. of that time will say, "Complete. fantasy, just made up, never happened.". But it did. We're that lost civilization. And we don't need a comet, and we don't.

need solar activity, because of we're so. psychically messed up as a species, we'll probably end up doing it to. ourselves. That's what nuclear weapons are about, mass species suicide. And the mental. processes that drive that, very dangerous, very effective of the world we live in. >> [sighs]. >> Hatred is a. psychic force, and.

the way it's being generated around the. world at the moment and mobilized and. focused, is um it's got to be bad for all of us. >> Especially when we have such powers to. self-destruct. >> Oh, it's terrible. This. This is what drives me nuts, is is. looking at the low consciousness level. of the so-called leaders on this planet. When I look around the whole bunch of. them, I just see very low consciousness. individuals who define everything in. material terms, uh who who are who are.

who are focused on. This also gets me into trouble, but I. I think nationalism something that. humanity needs to grow out of. We need. to grow out of nationalism. It's just an. extension of tribalism. We need to grow. out of it soon. And let me be clear, I. am not talking about world government. I. don't want anything like I don't want. any government. I'm an anarchist. basically. That's what anarchy means. It. means without government. I don't want. any government at all. But we have to.

get past this notion that by accident I. was born with this particular skin, you. know. The notion is that this these. accidents of birth define us. That we. must somehow massively respect and love. people who look like us and and and kind. of hate and fear people who don't look. like us. We have to get past that. We. have to get past that as a species. It's. really important. All human beings. everywhere all the same fundamentally. Of course we're vastly diverse. We have. we have incredible different gifts.

I value and appreciate the differences. in different cultures all around the. world. This is wonderful, but it doesn't. have to come with and we are better than. you. And we're going to kill you because. you don't share our ideas. This is. insane. It's it's crazy. We're not a. mature species. We're we're a childish. species and leading our species are. leaders who have the mentality of. deranged teenagers. >> We elected them. >> Yeah, we did. Very unfortunately, which.

shows how easy it is to manipulate the. narrative in the world today. Today who. wins in elections isn't the best person. Isn't the good person. Isn't the person. who's going to do good. It's the best. communicator who wins. >> So this. ancient civilization that we could have. theoretically forgotten, you were. somewhat implying that maybe they were. right that their own actions. caused the. great flood as they say. They they they. talk about it in mythology. >> floated that notion, yeah. Yeah. They.

might be might have been. but it's. enough to say that that's what they. believed. Because that's what all the myths say. The Noah story is prefigured in ancient. Sumer, um with um. an almost identical flood myth. The gods. are angry. A great flood is going to be sent. The. intention is to wipe out humanity. But this this god who's called Enki. says to Atrahasis, "I'm going to save. you. Build a boat. Build it now, a big one.

Put into it the seeds of all things that. you will need. Bring each animal of. every kind into your boat. This is This. is a kind of survival ark, which is. exactly the same as Noah. Noah's ark is. just copied on that. It's just borrowed. from that. >> And to people that say, "Well, these are. just stories. These are fictions that. someone wrote and then they passed them. down and there's no truth in these. things at all.". >> They're welcome to say that. Uh I I I. just happen to think they're not. And. And my job has been to make that case. I. do not claim that I have proved there. was a lost civilization. Any.

archaeologist who says Hancock claims. he's proved that is lying. I don't claim. that. I claim I'm puzzled and mystified. and I'm going to I'm going to com-. plete that journey as long as I can. I'm. going to carry on investigating and. looking into all aspects of this because. that's what I'm here to do. >> And that lost civilization, you said. they were sea-bearing potentially. >> Sea-faring, yeah. Yeah. >> Which means they had boats. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we know for example that. anatomically modern human beings uh. reached Australia 60,000 years ago. So,

that those involve significant sea. journeys. They reached Cyprus uh in the. Mediterranean 14,000 years ago. Again, they involve sea journeys. Not engine. boats, not metal boats. You can do it on. quite simple craft. Look at Look at the. Polynesians. Look at the vast distances. that they explored on outrigger canoes. Uh so, yeah, boats, but not. our kind of boats. >> Hm. I just don't understand how if if. they're traveling the seas in boats, have they they aren't classified as a. civilization?

>> Well, because. according to the mainstream model, which. I am trying to provide an alternative. to, they never existed. There was no such people. They never did. these things. The maps are just. coincidences, irrelevant. Just odd They. put Antarctica They put a a landmass in. Antarctica cuz they felt it would. balance the world. That's the theory. that's given. And it's just To me, it's. not It's not satisfactory. Doesn't It. just doesn't add up. These things need. to be explained. And it's why it's why.

in every society which wishes to make. progress, uh. mavericks, people who go against the. grain, no matter. how much they have to take, are. needed. They're needed in our society to. provide a balance to this. overwhelming. mass that science now occupies. Science. has now come to occupy the space that. religion occupied in many people's. minds. And again, I need to emphasize I'm not. against science. Science Science is.

about to save my life. I have major. heart surgery coming up in 2 weeks'. time. I'm not against it at all, but I. think it should be one weapon in our. armory, not the only weapon. >> There should be a button just down below. here. And if it says subscribe, you're. already subscribed. If it says subscribe. bar, that means you're not yet. And if. you're not subscribed, please could you. do us a favor and hit that button. It. helps the show more than you know. And. according to the algorithm, you're. someone that watches our show, but you. haven't yet hit that button. Thank you. so much. One of the. things I was super curious about cuz I.

was actually there last last week. is this place. >> Giza. >> Pyramids of Giza. >> The Great Pyramid of Giza. Here we look at it. Attributed to the pharaoh. Khufu. >> [sighs]. >> Who was a pharaoh of the fourth dynasty. >> What is the mystery here? So, again, pyramids are this big stack of like. concrete blocks in Egypt. What is the Why is it so mysterious? >> Well, first of all, they're not. concrete. They're They're hewn limestone. um and granite.

Uh. First of all, it's mysterious for the. sheer size of it. Look. So, you got roughly 750 ft along each. side, okay? >> [snorts]. >> And. they vary in length by only fractions of. an inch. They've got it just about. spot-on exact on the side length, and. you want that in a pyramid because if. you get it wrong, you're going to end up. with a corkscrew rather than a pyramid. If you get it wrong at the bottom, those. errors are going to magnify, and they're.

going to get worse and worse, and it's. not going to be a pyramid at the end of. the day. Secondly, weight calculated at about 6 million. tons. More than 2 million individual blocks of. stone. I've climbed the pyramid five times. Once I climbed it when there was an. event taking place on the Giza Plateau. Picnics, basically. And And a lot of. Cairoenes just decided to climb the. pyramid. As I say, I've climbed it four. other times without other people there, but this time there were hundreds of.

people on the pyramid. That's when I realized how difficult. this thing is to make because the. biggest danger was the other people. Once you're up. two or three courses, you fall, you're. dead. It's uh it's a 52° slope. There's. no way you're going to stop. You're. going to come down and still every year. people die on the Great Pyramid. That's. why they've made it illegal to climb it. now. So, there's that. Then there's the. almost perfect alignment of the Great. Pyramid to true north, not to compass.

north, which is about 10 or 11° off true. north, but to astronomical north, real. north. The Great Pyramid is aligned. within 3/60 of a single degree. I put it. that way because degrees are divided. into 60 minutes. So, 3 minutes of arc. The Great Pyramid is aligned to that. level of precision, 360th of a single. degree to true north. And they've done. that on a 6 million-ton monument, which. is 481 ft high, if you take account of its original. height, which has a 52° slope, which is. filled with internal corridors and.

spaces, grand gallery, the ascending, the descending corridors. All of this is extremely difficult to. do. It is It's not impossible to do. because we see it there. Could our. civilization do it? Yeah, I think we. could. But, would we do it? No, I don't think. we would. The motive wouldn't be there. People say, "Well, why I mean why do you. want to align it perfectly to true. north? It's enough to ask me to build a. 6-million-ton monument, but you want it. aligned to true north as well? Come on.

I mean, that's a really difficult. specification." We'd find that hard. Um a kind of artistry. was put to work on the Great Pyramid as. well as skill. Let's get rid of any. notion that slaves were involved. They. were not. There there wasn't slavery in. the Old Kingdom anyway, but this is a. work of love from the first to the last. stone. It's a work [clears throat] done. with great skill and care. It's a. beautiful and extraordinary thing, both. inside and out. It sits almost exactly.

on latitude 30, which is 1/3 of the way. between the North Pole and the equator. And. it incorporates the dimensions of the. Earth. on a scale of 1 to 43,200. in its own dimensions. So, if you take. the height of the Great Pyramid and. multiply it by 43,200, I'll explain why that number matters. Multiply it by that number, you get the. polar radius of the Earth. Measure the. base perimeter of the Great Pyramid,

multiply it by the same factor, 43,200, you get the equatorial circumference of. the Earth. Archaeologists know this. They say it's a coincidence, total. coincidence, just by chance. However, I could agree with them. actually if the scale was not 1 to. 43,200. But the fact that it's 1 to 43,200. changes everything because that belongs. to a sequence of numbers that is found. in ancient mythology all around the.

world. And those numbers are all. multiples of the number 72. And I. mentioned at the beginning of our. discussion the book by the great. historian of science, Giorgio de. Santillana, professor of the history of. science at MIT. He was the first to. identify that these numbers and the. imagery that go with them. derive from a phenomenon called the. precession of the equinoxes. I better. explain that a little bit. The. precession of the equinoxes. Everybody's heard the song, "We live in.

the dawning of the age of Aquarius.". I'm sure you've heard that. >> Uh no comment. >> [laughter]. >> We live in the dawning of the age of. Aquarius. That's astrology. At the moment, and for the last 2,000. years, on the spring equinox, the sun. has risen against the background of the. constellation of Pisces. That's the age of Pisces. We live in the. age of Pisces. It's not an accident that. the early Christians used the fish as. their symbol.

The next constellation on the zodiac, when you go backwards around it, is. Aquarius. And the precession is actually caused by. a wobble on the axis of the earth. I'm. going to pretend that this is the earth. >> Okay. >> And. instead of just doing this, while it's. doing that, it's also doing that. It's. wobbling. >> Mhm. >> And that affects the rising time and. season at which particular stars rise. It affects. two things noticeably. One thing it. affects is the pole star. At the moment, the pole star is Polaris. The pole star,

this is a strong astronomical north. It's the star towards which the the. north pole pole of the earth points most. directly. >> Okay. >> At present it's Polaris. It hasn't. always been Polaris. 4,000 years ago it. was Thuban in the constellation of. Draco. That's because the earth axis is. doing this. At the horizon it does the. same thing with the zodiacal. constellations. We shift gradually. through each constellation. Last about. 2,000 years in each constellation. The. great year where we come back to square. one is just under 26,000 years. 25,920.

years is the convention that's applied. in ancient mythology. So, the fact that. one of those numbers is the scale used. to encode the dimensions of the earth in. the Great Pyramid cannot be accidental. in my view. It's a deliberate choice. If. it was 1 to 57,000. I wouldn't pay attention to it. If it. was 1 to 20. 1,000 I wouldn't pay attention to it. But 1 to 43,200. that's the number of syllables in the. Rigveda for example. You find this all.

over the world, everywhere. >> So, what does that imply? What suggest? >> What it suggests is that incorporated. into the building of the Great Pyramid. was knowledge that was not supposed to. have existed 4 and 1/2 thousand years. ago. In fact, knowledge that was not. supposed to have existed until 2,000. years ago. Hipparchus of Alexandria is. the Greek who was supposed to have. discovered precession. Uh but. the incorporation of precession in the. structure of the Great Pyramid says to. me that that knowledge is much older. It.

was already old then. >> I really want to make sure I'm clear on. this precession thing cuz I'm not I'm. not super clear. >> Yeah. >> Um what does it what does it mean. precession? It means that there's a. certain star pattern that we see once. every 20,000 years? >> It it it it precesses. It goes. backwards. >> Okay. >> The direction through the through the. zodiac is is forwards in the normal. year. But in the long-term year because. of the wobble the sunrise against the. background of the spring equinox the sun. rises perfectly due east. It always. does. It also rises perfectly due east.

on the autumn equinox. On the summer. solstice, the sun rises in the northern. hemisphere north of east and south of. east on the on the winter solstice. The. key moment. for the ancients was the equinox. It was considered to define the. character of the year and what defined. it was the constellation that housed the. sun, that was the house of the sun. >> Okay, so the star pattern. >> Yeah, the. a zodiacal constellation. These The. constellations of the zodiac lie along.

what is called the ecliptic, the path of. the sun. >> Okay. >> Okay, the Earth, the Moon, we're all on. the ecliptic within. a few degrees above or below it. And and. therefore, these are constellations that. we can see the sun against the. background of. >> Mhm. >> Constellation like Orion, you'll never. see the sun against the background of. it. You're only going to see it against. the background of the zodiacal. constellations that lie on the so-called. path of the sun. And those are the 12. familiar constellations of the zodiac. And as I say,

we're living in the age of Pisces right. now and according to ancient astrology, we're going to be making the transition. into Aquarius within about the next 150. years. The sun will have left Pisces and. will be rising in Aquarius. So that. actually the song is true. We do live in. the dawning of the age of Aquarius. The. only question is whether that means. anything or not. The ancients thought it. did. We think it doesn't. I'm not sure who's right. >> So, I'm going to repeat this back to you. to check if I'm I've got it correctly, but [clears throat] I suspect I might. not have. Within the design of the.

pyramids, there was a number which you. said was 43,200. >> It's a scale. >> It's a scale that's used for the height. and the base perimeter of the Great. Pyramid. Base perimeter measure, four. sides added together, height, the actual. height of the Great Pyramid. It's true. original height. It lost about 30 ft in. an earthquake in 1301, but you can. calculate the true original height from. the angle of the. of the sides. >> Ah, yeah, Right. >> Um and when you take that height.

and multiply it by 43,200, you get the polar radius of the Earth. >> You get the radius of the Earth. >> that's from the center of the Earth to. the edge of the Earth. It's not the. diameter of the Earth. The diameter is. twice the radius. It's the It's the polar radius. >> Okay. >> A key dimension of the Earth. Measure the sides and you get. on the same scale, 1 to 43,200, you get. the equatorial circumference of the. Earth. What the Earth measures at its. equator, its largest its largest.

measure. Um and and that. uh is either a coincidence or is. deliberate. And because of the number. chosen and because that number is all. over ancient mythology, I think it's. deliberate. >> Did that means that they must have known. the circumference of the Earth? >> Yeah. It means that they knew the. circumference of the Earth and it means. they chose. a place to put the Great Pyramid which. also was relevant. This isn't latitude 23 or latitude 37.

This is just a fraction off latitude 30°. north. So, therefore, 1/3 of the way. between the equator and the North Pole. It's a It's a It's a significant. relative What it's telling us is this. monument speaks to the Earth. This. monument is locked into the true north. of this planet. This monument gives you the dimensions. of this planet. This monument is. speaking to this planet. >> How could they possibly know the. circumference of the Earth 4,500 years. ago? >> Because they're a lost civilization.

Because the the knowledge comes down. from a former time. I don't think the. Egyptians knew it. I think it came down. I think it was inherited knowledge from. what I'm here. to advocate for and to speak for, the. possibility of a major forgotten episode. in the human story. >> Which could be 20,000 years ago. >> Yes. >> And they've passed it down in in myths. and stories. >> Yes. Passed it down but not only in. myths and stories. Um this is something else that I will. I'll just hint at here that I intend to.

get into. in the new book. is that there appear to have been. organizations. in each of these civilizations. In Egypt. they were called the followers of Horus. In Sumer they were called the Apkallu. They served as advisers to kings. They. were called sages. There's a reference. to them. Many cultures refer to them as. the seven sages. They provided advice to kings in the. historical period.

And I'm wondering whether we're looking. at some kind of. long-lived organization here which is. carrying down information looking for. the right time to switch the engine of. civilization back on again. I know it's. sounds extreme but. that's what I do. I explore I explore. extreme ideas and see whether. and see whether they fit or not. And I'm. beginning to find this idea does fit. It. It fit It fits with a whole range of. information which will be in the next. book.

>> A sage that reports to the king and. dictates. >> only reports to the king but advises the. king. >> On what? >> On everything. On what to do. >> Oh okay. >> Yeah. The Apkallu in the ancient traditions of. Sumer they existed in the pre-diluvian. world. They were there in the world. before the flood. Then there and and they taught mankind. knowledge then. But. the flood came, the cataclysm came. They. were wiped out but some of the Apkallu. survived and they appear after the flood.

as advisers to the earliest historical. kings of Sumer. And I'm just wondering. whether. you know, there are there are religions. in the world which have maintained. traditions and maintained offices, priesthoods for example, for thousands. of years. I don't see why the same. shouldn't be true here, why there. shouldn't have been some driving motive. at the end of the Ice Age to preserve in. a way what they knew, and to find. mechanisms to pass it down. One. mechanism is to embed it in wonderful.

stories that will go on being told, and. another mechanism is to set up some kind. of secret society, which is operating. behind the scenes to guide and steer. society. I'm not going to present the. evidence for that here, but it's an. avenue I'm pursuing. If I If I don't. find it a satisfactory avenue, I'll. abandon it, but at the moment it's. looking very interesting. >> Then where did all this information. go? You know, cuz if the people who. built the pyramids of Giza had this. information, where did the sages go and. with their information?

>> Yeah, it's very it's very odd, actually. What What happens after Giza is. fascinating, um because once you. once you leave the Fourth Dynasty. period, you get into the Fifth and Sixth. Dynasties, pyramid building collapses. The stuff they're making in the Fifth. Dynasty, like the Pyramid of Unas, Fifth Dynasty pyramid. in Saqqara, inside, it's stunningly beautiful. Beautiful tomb chamber, stars on the. ceiling, incredible hieroglyphs on the.

side. It's. magical. But outside, it's just a pile. of dust. It's a mess. It doesn't even. You could hardly recognize it as a. pyramid. And it's true of all those. So, this is odd in itself. Normally, when human cultures create. something, they continue to work on it, and it tends to get better and better, not worse and worse. So, it's odd what. happens to the pyramids, that they get. worse and worse in Egypt. It's like, "Job done. Done that. Move on." And. that's there.

And that's going to speak. to human beings not just for a. generation, not just for a hundred. years. It's going to be there speaking. to us for thousands of years. It's going. to be sitting there on the Giza Plateau, like an enormous question mark, calling towards it those who don't see. it just as a heap of stones, but. actually see it as something wonderful. and magnificent and mysterious, calling. them to it and saying, "Learn about me. Figure me out. And in the process of. learning about me, you're going to learn. so much else." Well, in learning about.

the Great Pyramid, I find that it is. encoded with astronomical information. that should not be there if the current. model of the history of science is. correct. I think the current model of the history. of science is wrong. I think this. information was known much earlier, and. it's encoded in the Great Pyramid. Once. I know that, then I have to start. thinking, "What else does that mean?". And what else it means to me is a big. forgotten episode in our story. >> Again, why? Because they had intelligence that. they're not credited with having at that.

time. >> Yes, because it's there. Because they. should not be a monument of this. scale, which incorporates into it. information that was not supposed to be. available to human beings for another 2. and 1/2 thousand years. >> So, they must have got it from. somewhere. >> Yes, they must have got it from. somewhere. And and the fact that it's. there is it's. it's just a fact. And all that's left. for us to say is. either it's a coincidence, complete. coincidence, or.

it's the result of a deliberate. decision. And if it's the result of a deliberate. decision, that weighs much more towards. a deliberate decision because of the. scale chosen. Because the scale is part. of a system that is found all over the. ancient world. It's not a random number. It's a very specific number. Uh and it's a number that is derived. from a motion of the Earth itself, from. the precession of the Earth's axis. It. is derived from that. So, I'm situated at a significant latitude. I'm oriented to true north, and I.

incorporate the measurements of your. planet. on a scale derived from your planet. itself. That's what the Great Pyramid is. saying to us, and it's saying, "Figure that out.". >> Do you think there's something. underneath it? >> Oh, there's definitely something. underneath it. >> Cuz we think of it as this sort of like. building with the with tunnels inside. it, but. >> Yeah, when you go into the Great Pyramid. now, you go in through what is what is. called the Robbers' Tunnel or Mamoun's. Hole. The Caliph al-Mamoun. had a notion that.

there would be a entrance to the Great. Pyramid in its northern face. Other pyramids had been found with. entrances in their northern face, but at. that time, the Great Pyramid was. completely covered with perfectly smooth. limestone facing stones, and nobody. could see the entrance. They came off later in that earthquake. in 1301, but when he broke in in the 9th. century, they didn't know where the door was. Apparently, there was a place you could. almost literally press a switch and open. that door, but they couldn't find it. So, they broke in with sledgehammers and.

chisels, and they smashed their way into. the Great Pyramid, and then, at a certain moment when they're about. 60 or 70 ft into the Great Pyramid, they. hear something dropping in a hollow. space. A big. something has fallen in a hollow space. They head towards that sound, and then, they enter the original. corridor system of the Great Pyramid. And that's the way we all go in now. We. go in through that Robbers' Tunnel, and. then we go up the Grand Gallery, but we. can also go down. We can go down to the. subterranean chamber, which is 100 ft.

vertically beneath the base of the Great. Pyramid, deep in the bedrock. I actually. think that was the original sacred site. on that monument is that subterranean. chamber. I don't advise anybody with. claustrophobia to go down there. You're very conscious that you've got a. 6-million-ton monument sitting right. above you in a place that has. earthquakes. Um it can be quite oppressive, but. that's just a hint of what's under the. Giza Plateau. That's just that's an. accessible bit. Uh but it's it's it's already obvious.

that there there there is so much more. Some of it's been picked up with ground. penetrating radar. And I'll take this. opportunity to say that the hysterical. reaction of mainstream scientists to the. announcement by Filippo Biondi uh. >> What is he saying? >> He's saying that there are enormous. structures under the second pyramid, that not the Great Pyramid, under the. pyramid attributed to Khafre, Khufu's. successor. The the structures that go. hundreds of feet deep under there.

Structures that involve spiral. kind of stairways. The reaction has been. overwhelmingly dismissing this. Archaeologists have not They won't look. further. They say it's impossible, and. they won't look at it. And I think. that's shameful for people who imagine. they're scientists. They should be. looking further. I'd like to see the. technology trialed in Turkey. There are. underground cities in Turkey, Kaymakli, for example. We know every room in those. underground cities. Run this technology. on them. If they accurately reproduce.

what we already know is there, then we. can be pretty sure they're accurately. reproducing what's under the Giza. pyramids. We need to do a lot more work. before dismissing this. So I'm I remain. open to the notion that a huge. underworld awaits discovery under Giza. And the ancient Egyptians themselves. felt that way. They felt that Giza, the. ancient name for it was Rostau, it was. an entrance to the underworld. They saw. it as an entrance to the afterlife. realm. It makes sense that there would. be much much underground structures. there. >> And you've been alone in the pyramids?

>> Being with large groups in the pyramid. is difficult in the sense that the. pyramid to me feels like a personality. When I'm in there with a large group, I. I feel the pyramid withdrawing. It It. It's like it doesn't want to speak to. you anymore. It's The place becomes a. dead space. But But if you can be in there with a. very small group or be there alone. and just be still. let the silence descend, sit in that silence in the very low. lighting that's in there.

Just pause and. remind yourself that you're in the last. surviving wonder of the ancient world. It's an incredible privilege to be. there. And just let it speak to you. And it does. This is of course my critics will say. another proof that Hancock's a lunatic. But. I'm just telling you what what what what. happens to me. It's a I I think it's a. monument that communicates. >> What did it say to you? >> It said to me go further. >> [laughter].

>> Very much so. I've I I I feel. in a weird way. validated by the Great Pyramid. I think. it's um. not only me, others as well. who've devoted big chunks of their lives. to the Great Pyramid like Robert Bauval. who is a great man by the way. The Orion Correlation the recognition. that the three pyramids on the ground. are laid out in the pattern of the belt. stars of the constellation of Orion. makes radical and important changes to.

our understanding of ancient Egypt. Again, that's another thing that's been. leapt upon by the archaeological mafia. because they want to destroy every new. idea. rather than spend a bit of time thinking. about it. >> You guys know that I only drink one type. of coffee these days and it's called. Cometeer. If you don't know the brand, they flash freeze coffee at the perfect. moment to lock in all of the amazing. flavor. They've done something. incredible. They've gone all around the. world and they found the most delicious. coffees from all of these places and.

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remind us and tell us once and for all. that we're not what it's all about. It's not all about us. The whole human. story is not about us. It's not. inevitable that it comes to this, and. that we are temporary like every other. civilization. We're so filled with. arrogance and pride right now with our. technological achievements, our great. abilities, our great powers. And the arrogance that comes with that, the Greeks used to call that hubris. It's it's.

ultimately ends in nemesis. Ultimately. brings you down. Arrogance arrogance is. not a good thing. It's not a good thing. in an individual and it's a terrible. thing in a civilization. >> It also means that a lot of the things. that we've dismissed as. you know, conspiracy or you know, hocus. pocus, whatever, might not be. I mean, you talk a lot. about like astrology and stuff like that. and. >> Yeah, I think we should keep open to to. systems that the ancients used which. we've dismissed. >> Like.

>> Which might be very Astrology is one of. them. What does astrology ultimately. say? It ultimately says that. we, these beings, these humans, aren't isolated, but are connected to. the universe and are affected by. everything that happens in the universe. And it's And it's recognizing that there. may be patterns in that. And instead of. instead of just rubbishing that or doing. a few investigations, I think it maybe. worth looking further into that. Worth. looking further into telepathy, too. My. friend Rupert Sheldrake, serious.

scientist, one of the very few who's. doing serious scientific work on. issues like telepathy and like. telekinesis, being able to move things. with your mind. Mainstream scientists, most of them will. just laugh at that. Absolute rubbish. Yeah, go away, you're a lunatic. But why are we lunatics to look into. those things? It's really interesting. and it's really worth investigating. We. should realize that we have a heritage. of hundreds of thousands of years and I.

believe it's even older than 315,000. years. We do not have a heritage of 100. years, which is the heritage of modern. science. Well, let's let's be generous. Let's put modern science even back to. the Greeks in a way, but it doesn't. become what we would recognize as. science until the 19th century really. So, it's a very young thing. If you take the human being as the. as the heart of this and and and you. were to find a little pimple on the nose. of that human being, that would be.

science. >> Mhm. >> It's a pimple on the nose. of hundreds of thousands of years of. human experience. Why should we be so. arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of. thousands of years of human experience. in the favor of 150 years maximum of. so-called science? >> I mean, one of the interesting things is. I actually did go to the Amazon. rainforest in Peru. >> Um. and they've discovered these like big. square things underground. >> I've been involved in that. >> What is What is that? >> Well, the the name that's been given to.

them is is geoglyphs. >> Geoglyphs. >> I think I know this one. Nobody knew. they existed at all until about 40 years. ago. >> Really? >> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is. a rainforest and and densely covered. with uh canopy. However, it's constantly being settled. This is a. problem in itself. It's constantly being. settled. The Amazon is being cleared and. it's being turned into farms. It's the. clearance of bits of the Amazon. initially that exposed.

these huge geometric structures. >> Mhm. >> under [clears throat] the rainforest. No. longer under because they cleared the. rainforest. Now, with lidar, I've been. involved with Martti Pärssinen. In fact, he was on my Netflix show. He's a. archaeologist from Finland and and with. Alteo Ramzi, a Brazilian geographer, um. what they're doing is a. dense lidar survey of the whole of Acre. province in Brazil. This is in Acre province as well. The. areas that are still under canopy.

rainforest. And lidar can see through. the canopy and it can see raised objects. underneath and it can actually give you. the shape of that object. Then they can. go in low. you know low impact just a few of them. go in check it out see what's there and. then begin the archaeology on the site. >> I mean this is a prime example. I've got. a I've got a list here of things that we. used to believe and things that. [clears throat]. how those beliefs have changed and one. of them was that we used to believe that. the Amazon was an untouched wilderness. But in the 1970s we discovered yep what.

a thousand of these structures? >> At least. they're they're they're confident now. from the lidar work talking of thousands. 3 5 6000 there are also roadways that. run for 100 kilometers plus. There's absolutely no doubt that the. Amazon once supported a population of. millions with extraordinary clever. management of rainforest soils by. creating a man-made soil that they call. terra preta. It's still used in Brazil. today. We are having to.

completely reconceive the Amazon. It was thought of as a pristine. rainforest which a few human beings. wandered around aimlessly in hunting. whatever. Now we know that it was. the homeland. of a very large population who lived in. city-sized communities. um. who joined those communities with long. straight roadways. It's it's as though the veil is being.

pulled back and we're beginning to see a. completely untold story in the Amazon. and these geoglyphs. very precise rectangles triangles. circles squares all of these geometry. geometry what what's it what's it doing. there in the Amazon? And and when I when. I talked to a local shaman about this. and I did on on camera in the in the in. the Netflix show. he talked to me about how important. these places still are to him that these. places were made by their ancestors that.

they're are for shamanic gatherings. Places for shamans to use specifically. to contact the world beyond. Let's be. clear about this. All civilizations, including ours, although we may deny it, all of them emerged from shamanism. Shamanism is the essence. of the human adventure. And and all. civilizations emerged from shamanism and. this one was shamanism, yes. Shamanism. being the system of using altered states. of consciousness to gain direct access.

to other levels of reality. >> Like psychedelics? >> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a. month. That will give you some visions, too. There there are there are other. ways, but but psychedelics are the most. efficient way to enter the altered state. of consciousness and shamans are masters. of the use of plant medicines everywhere. in the world, but particularly in the. Amazon rainforest. This is this is where. you you see it most strongly. And DMT, the active ingredient of ayahuasca, is very fast-acting in the way that it's.

normally consumed. Okay? It's normally vaped or smoked. It produces a 10-minute journey. literally to the other side of reality. And there's not much you can do about it. once you're in there. But then you're out again. Ayahuasca. is a very clever technology. The. ayahuasca brew contains DMT. DMT is not orally active. So, you can. drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in.

it and it's not going to do anything to. you because there's an enzyme in the gut. that destroys it. >> [clears throat]. >> The ayahuasca vine. contains a chemical that shuts that. enzyme down and allows the DMT to be. absorbed orally, producing an experience. that can last for hours that can be. physically very uncomfortable. What they're doing at Imperial College. is they're giving them DMT by. intravenous infusion. Using basically anesthesia technology to.

constantly top up the dose to keep the. individual in the peak state. And unlike. other psychedelics, there's no tolerance. with DMT, so you can keep on. dosing people. >> When you you've taken ayahuasca 80. times? >> Something like that. Something like. that. Um. It's not just. It's important to be clear about a. number of things. First of all, all psychedelics are extremely serious. matters. They are not to be taken. trivially. They are extremely serious.

With uh. experienced use of ayahuasca, one of the. very common reports is this moral. dimension. That you are presented with. your own life, with what you've done. with your own life, with the pain that. you may have caused to others. And. suddenly, that pain that you caused to. another person, which you dismissed as. they just deserved that, they just. deserved those words, you suddenly get. it from their point of view. You feel. the agony that your words caused that. person. And.

and you find yourself that did I do. that? Did I say that? You suddenly see. what you are. You can't go back into your own past and. change negative and useless and. pointless things that you did. You can't. do that. But you can avoid repeating them in the. future. And it's that teaching of a moral lesson. uh that I find most valuable in. ayahuasca. It's helped me to come to. terms with my tendency to swift anger. I'm I'm very aware that that's a problem.

I have and it's something I need to do. something about. And I I was goes helped. me with that. I've I've become gentler. and and softer. Not gentle enough, maybe. It's a journey. It's not a It's. not an overnight transformation, not a. magic pill. Uh the main work with. ayahuasca comes after the medicine. The. main work comes with what you do with. the experience, how you integrate it. into your life. That's where the work. begins. People say "Oh, it's so easy to. take a. a brew." Well, it's not actually not. that easy cuz you're going to vomit and. have diarrhea, but but easy.

Um. but that's where the work begins, not. where it ends. >> And that emotion, is that Does that stem. back to your relationship with your. parents? Because I was reading about your early. your early life. >> Yeah. Look, we're all frail human beings. We're all messed about in lots of ways. We all have We all have issues in our. lives. Um and. >> regret. >> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying. hurtful and unkind things to a number of. people over the years. I do I do regret. that very much. I do regret very much.

that I wasn't. I wasn't mature enough to realize why my. parents were so difficult. Uh that I. never really forgave them for that. I. never really forgave them for. the strangeness of my childhood and and. uh. the various things that that that that. happened. I never really saw it from. their point of view. My mother lost. three children aside from me. I'm an. only child, but her first child was. carried to term before me and born dead. Then I was born, I lived, and then the.

next two both died at the age of a year. Well, I know now, as a father, I know I. know what what kind of catastrophe that. is for a person for a for a mother to to. lose three children like that. >> You said weird childhood. >> Yeah. So, this is me. This is little Graham here with my. mother and my father. I was It was 1954. that we landed in India. My father was a. surgeon consultant surgeon, and so he. went as a missionary surgeon to India to.

a place called the Christian Medical. College in Vellore in South India. Um. and we lived in a tin hut. But he was. following his faith. He was doing what. was what was right for him. He was. giving his skills to help to help. people. I I realize that now, and a a of. resentment I have towards him, I. probably, you know, shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He. was very eccentric. He used to take me. in to watch dissections. Um. there there were still hangings in India. at that time, and he would dissect the.

prisoners after the hangings. He had me. in there watching it. Um he took me. later on when I was what age? Uh. uh. five. >> You were watching bodies being cut up at. five? >> I was, yeah. Absolutely. Very strange. See, it was presented to me as. completely normal. Um but but it was it. it it was strange. Fundamentally, he was. a good man, I believe. >> But I think. allowing a four- to five-year-old child. be. to see those things is deeply traumatic.

in a way that you probably don't. recognize until later. >> I I agree. It's it's come home to me. more and more as the years have gone by. that what happened to me in those years. in India. scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the. operating theaters and the dissections. the dissections. It was. the gloom and the misery and the despair. that settled over my family at that. time, and I don't think I ever really. recovered from that. >> Did you have nightmares? >> Yeah. >> And what what were those nightmares?

>> Um. usually nightmares of loss, usually. nightmares of. suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a. I'm completely isolated, lost, alone. >> The reason I ask these questions is. there's only ever been one other guest. who I sat here with a couple of years. ago. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> who I believe's dad was a surgeon. >> Mhm. >> And his dad brought him in to watch. operations and dissections when he was.

young. >> Yeah. >> And it scarred him in a way that he. didn't realize until later. >> Yeah. >> And he told me about the nightmares of. waking up in the night and seeing those. bodies of those people around his bed on. a predictable basis and told me he he's. actually the guy that um. coached Michael Jordan. >> Mhm. >> And then um. Kobe. bef- before Kobe Bryant um passed away. and he told me still as an adult those. bodies to join him at night time. So, he'll wake up at night time and he'll. see them around.

around his bed. So, >> Well, thank you, universe. That didn't. happen to me. I I I do not have I don't. remember having gruesome nightmares. I. remember a feeling of loneliness and. abandonment. That's what I remember. >> Loneliness and abandonment. >> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was. always an outsider at school. Uh. everywhere I've been all my life. That's. what I'm for. I'm here to be an. outsider. I've come to that conclusion. And and uh.

I need to do that well. I need to provide an alternative point. of view on the past. >> There's a real cost to being an. outsider. >> Oh, yeah. But, there are also some. benefits. You know, we are what we are. And and for me, I was always strange. I. had this childhood in in in India. I. didn't fit into the British school. system. I was a total failure at school. I could. not connect. I could not connect with. any of it. It seemed I just didn't get. it. What was this about? And and and the. cruelty, the viciousness. My my dad went.

to a boarding school and had a good. experience. So, he sent me to a boarding. school in Durham in the north of. England. It was the cruelest place. Beatings going on I I was repeatedly. beaten about the bare buttocks by a. sadistic headmaster with a cane. I. couldn't fit in with the other kids at. school. And uh I don't feel victimized. for being an outsider. I feel I feel. it's a privilege. I feel I've been given. I've been given an opportunity to take a. different view of things as a result of. being an outsider.

>> Are there words unsaid here with these. two people in your life? >> are there are so many words unsaid. I'd. like to go back to my mom and say. you know, I understand why you were so. obsessed with keeping me alive and. making sure that I did something with my. life. And I'd like to say to my dad, "Look, you you were pretty crazy, but. you you did at least inspire me to be. eccentric.". It's funny thing getting older. I'm 75, 76 in August. >> [snorts]. >> One of the things it does is it you. realize how collapsed life actually is.

I remember being a teenager, and I. remember being a young man, and and and. I remember being middle-aged, and the. feeling is. you're immortal. It's going to go on. forever. Everything's going to go on. forever. And it's long, long, lots of. time to do the things you want to do. I have a message. No, it's not long. There is not lots of time. If there's. things you want to do with your life, start now. Start right away. Don't wait. Otherwise, you'll not have the. opportunity. Life is very short. It's a. beautiful, beautiful gift that the.

universe has given to us. We are responsible for returning that. gift by as far as possible within the. circumstances that the universe has. given us living a full life and. contributing something worthwhile to. that life. Not being a robot, not being. commanded what to do. Not We We need to. learn to think for ourselves. This This. is something that. is so easily forgotten. It's a miracle. that you and I are sitting here at all.

I'm here, that you're here, that we're. here together. It's absolute miracle. It's the result of billions and billions. of years of processes in the universe. which had nothing to do with us randomly. bring us together at this at this point. It's It's really quite a miraculous. situation to be alive, to be born at all. is a miracle. Um I think it was Voltaire who, talking. about reincarnation, uh who said, um "It's no more. extraordinary to be born twice than to. be born once.". Uh and I think there's a point in that.

>> Are you religious? Do you believe in a. god or. >> I would. >> that I am um that I pay. attention, close attention, to what I. would regard as the spiritual, non-physical side of life. Um but I do. not belong to any organized religion. One of the things I don't like about. organized religion is that your. relationship to the divine, whatever you. call the divine, spirit world, whatever. you want to call it, your relationship. is mediated in some way, some priest or. rabbi or mullah teaches you how to.

mediate that relationship. And I I think. what's important in for me anyway in in. the spiritual inquiry is a direct. relationship, a direct experience, rather than being taught something. I. want to experience it for myself. And. that's why I found ayahuasca very, very. valuable um because it has enabled me to. experience something that is absolutely. impossible to experience in normal. everyday life. We're so plugged in. We're so plugged in to the physical. world, and we have to be. We got to be. We got to obey the laws of physics. We. got to deal with the economics of our.

circumstances. You know, we have to make. our way through life. All of those. things we've got to do. Um. but. if they become our total focus, we become shut off from everything and. anything else that may exist. And what. the big psychedelics can do, if they're. taken in the right circumstances with. the right advice, with sincere intention, what they can do. is get you out of your own way and allow. you to connect to that wider realm that.

normally you cannot connect to. And yes, I do believe that a wider realm exists. Uh just in the same way that uh you you. you you. you know, before the invention of the. microscope, we had no idea that there. were bacteria. I think I'm right about. that. We started seeing these tiny. little things swimming around. Gosh, major discovery. Well, they were always. there. We just didn't have the kit to. see them. And I'm suggesting that what. psychedelics can be, and certainly what. they're used as shamans by for, is a. technology, a device.

for getting you out of your own way and. allowing you to connect with other. levels of reality that in daily life it. doesn't serve you to be connected with. >> The interesting thing about DMT in. particular is when you speak to people. who have done DMT. You know, I spent. about a year working in a quite a big. psychedelics company just to I got. really fascinated. I'd left my company. I didn't have anything to do with my. time. So, I started this podcast and I also on. YouTube and I also started working at a. psychedelics business cuz I found the. the studies on mental health and.

psychedelics really interesting. So, I. have quite a deep understanding, I guess. higher than average of ibogaine and. ayahuasca and DMT and my partner. is very very spiritual and has done all. these things as well. So, one of the fascinating things is how. similar people's experiences are on. something like DMT. The fun funnily. enough, your description of these. creatures saying, "You'll you belong to. us now." is almost verbatim. what what what one of my friends. described 2 weeks ago.

That they were teleported into this like. 4K realm where these creatures that are. like slightly animal in their anatomical. structure, maybe slightly a little bit. human as well, basically was like had. had taken hold of him. and they were very curious and. inspecting him. Very colorful realm and. then they kind of sent him back or at. least, you know, after the And it and it. does make one wonder. I think one of my. conclusions was if if inhaling a small. chemical. can completely take me to another place,

then and and if you from a reasoning. perspective, it's just a it was an one. inhale of a chemical, then it goes to say that my current. perception of reality yeah, is just is as fragile as an inhale of a. chemical. Like me thinking that I'm here. with you now is as fragile as inhaling. one chemical. So, to think that this is. base reality when the difference between. this and being with some grasshopper. people. >> Yeah. >> in 4K [laughter]. >> Exactly.

>> is literally an an ale. It just That for. me I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay.". >> It's an extraordinary realization when. that comes and it causes us to question. the nature of reality itself. And this. is um. This is what's really important about. these medicines. First and foremost, you're right. The these um psychedelic. medicines are proving incredibly. effective as therapeutic tools. And. that's great. I I I really. think that's incredibly valuable. But. there's another level to go, which is to. the inquiry into the nature of reality.

and the inquiry into what consciousness. is. These medicines are very effective means. to conduct that inquiry and that's why I. applaud what they're doing at Imperial. College in London. They're also going to. be doing trials at the University of. California, San Diego. Um they're going to be doing trials in. Costa Rica. Uh a whole range of places now are. looking into this cuz it's really. interesting. People coming back and. reporting the same experience when they. haven't compared notes yet. How do we.

explain that? Because it's in a vision. and people say that at the moment the. default mode is to dismiss it and say. that's just rubbish. Don't waste time on. it. Our preconceptions about the nature. of reality should not limit our inquiry. into the nature of reality. And at the. moment, still unfortunately, there are. preconceptions about the nature of. reality, which is that it's. material-based, that there's nothing. else to it really. Everything is reduced. to matter. Even consciousness is reduced.

to matter. It's reduced to the physical. matter of the brain. We don't know that. for sure. We don't know what's going on. Consciousness is absolutely not. understood. And so, when we have. mysteries like people who are injected a. small dose of a chemical like DMT and go. off into a completely other reality. That's really interesting. And it's it's. it's it's at at least as interesting, if. not more interesting, than exploring. other planets right now. I think we need. to I think we need to explore ourselves.

first. We need to. We're not in shape as a species to start. exploring the universe. We don't want to. export our toxicity to other parts of. the universe until we've overcome it, until we've grown up as a species, which. we haven't done yet. We need to know. ourselves. Psychedelics are one way to. do that, not used irresponsibly, but. used responsibly in a structured, careful, thoughtful way. They can be. very helpful in knowing ourselves.

That's the journey we need to do first. Go to Mars by all means, you know, go to. the moon, we go even further, but do. this first. Know who you are first. before you start doing those bigger and. wider investigations. Get all that. sorted out, cuz we hardly sorted out. anything on this planet, and we're. talking about exploring other planets. Well, I'm all in favor of exploring. other planets, but I'd like to sort out. things on this planet first. That's. where the resources should be going, and. we should stop kidding ourselves that we. can just escape this planet and make a.

complete of it, leave it, and. go and live somewhere else. No, we can. fix this. We are capable of fixing this. We are capable of fixing everything. Human beings have enormous potential. We're just using a fraction of 1% of it. at the moment. >> The question I you know, I mean the. obvious question that comes to mind is. how. I see, you know, maybe. I don't know, maybe some kind of leader. comes along. >> Could be. Um. I think we need to. need to move past leaders.

>> I just don't know how else humans would. change without some kind of leadership. >> difficult to see. I agree with you. It's. very It's very difficult to see how it. happens. One person at a time, um slowly through through word of mouth, through experience. But look, everything in the ayahuasca garden is. not all flowers either. There's a lot of. very wrong behavior going on there. People are exploiting that medicine. Basically, drug dealers are exploiting. that medicine and offering it. irresponsibly to people in groups of 100. or even more. That that that's that's.

actually really really stupid to do. that. Ayahuasca is an intimate. experience and it needs to be done in a. very small group, not a very large. group. So it's not it's not all roses. I'm not. I you know, I'm not trying to paint. these medicines in a. in in a false light. They have their. downsides. They have their problems. They are extremely serious. We should. always research and investigate before. any experience with psychedelics, but. they have a part to play and it's an. important part and thank God we're.

seeing its effects in psilocybin effect. on long-term depression. Very important. Post-traumatic stress disorder, very. important. These therapeutic. breakthroughs hopefully will open the. door to further inquiries into the kind. of work that's being done at Imperial. College. What does this really tell us. about the mystery of consciousness? What. does this really tell us about what we. think is real? >> If you're thinking about starting a. business, one of the first decisions. you'll have to make is actually one of.

the most important, which is where do. you build that business? Our product. team, who manages everything we do from. our conversation cards to our diaries, has always used our sponsor, Shopify. There are a few reasons for this, but. one of the big ones is that when you're. running a business, you really need your. own store and grown customer data. And. Shopify gives you exactly that. You. aren't renting space from someone else's. platform, hoping the rules don't. suddenly change, and you avoid the. classic founder challenges that. inevitably come, like sorting out. payments and logistics and storefronts,

because it's already built into Shopify. Those early days are messy enough. without the infrastructure challenge to. create extra problems for you. And. Shopify's distribution piece is. underrated, too, because your products. automatically get in front of people on. Google, TikTok, YouTube, ChatGPT, which. again isn't something you have to figure. out yourself. It's just already built. into their platform. If you are serious. about starting your own thing, start. your free trial at shopify.com/bartlett. >> Through your journey through um ancient. civilizations, what have you come to.

learn about what this consciousness. thing is, if anything at all? Or at. least what people believed? >> Yeah. >> Um and how those similar mythologies. were similar. >> Yes, I've partly I've partly come to. this through the ancient texts. There's. a very specific uh scene in a number of. the ancient Egyptian funerary text. It's. called the judgment scene. And what you see is you see the deceased. entering into a hall, into a room, at. the end of which sits the god Osiris. enthroned.

And uh the deceased is led into the hall. by the goddess Ma'at. She's recognized. by a feather that she wears in a. headdress. She's the goddess of truth, justice, and cosmic harmony. He enters. the hall. There's a scale in the hall. In one pan of the scale. is an object that represents his heart. {oblique} his soul. Heart and soul were. the same thing for the Egyptians in that. sense.

And in the other pan. is the feather of Ma'at. The feather of truth, harmony, and. cosmic justice. You do not want your heart to outweigh. the feather. at that moment. You want at the very least to be in. balance. And in order to be in balance, then. comes into question the whole way that. you've lived your life. Up on the wall. of the hall, there are 42 little. figures. They're called the 42 negative. assessors. Each one of them's going to.

ask you a question. Did you steal? Did you kill? Actually, the 10. Commandments are all in there and a lot. more as well. Ideally, you should be able to answer no to all. of those questions, but the ancient. Egyptians. always understood how frail human beings. are and that we can always make. mistakes. The question is, what do we do. when we make a mistake? Do we learn from. it or do we keep on repeating it? And. what I read into that is. you were given. you, the deceased, you were given an. incredible opportunity.

We allowed you to be born in a human. body. You could have a range of experiences. that no other physical form on your. planet could have. You you you had this. huge brain. You had this enormous. capacity. We gave it this to you. What did you do with it? Did you use it well? Or did you squander it and waste it? And. at that moment, you'd better be there. with some answers about how you used it. well. So, as I come towards the end of my. life, I look very carefully at my life I.

and um. I try to undo wrongs that I have done in. the past if I can and I try to make sure. I don't do any more in the future. I. want to be a nurturing. and positive. and useful person to the people around. me. >> The the health situation you've gone. through is clearly made you quite. introspective, probably more so than you. you might have been 10 years ago, I'm. guessing. >> Oh, yeah. Ab- absolutely. I was still. immortal 10 years ago. >> [laughter]. >> Listen, each and every one of us, every. single human being on this planet could.

die in the next minute. Life is that fragile. It's that sudden. You can never predict you you how long. you're going to live, but what something. like this does, it focuses the mind and. it does make me wish more and more that. I can leave this life with. as few regrets as possible. and that I can feel that I played a. useful and positive role. in the life of others and that I.

even played. in some way a useful and positive role. in the life of the species. to which I belong. >> Are you happy? >> I am very happy. In a lot of ways, I'm blessed to have. lived the life I've lived, to have traveled the world, to have the. adventures that I have had. I'm blessed with a beautiful and. wonderful wife and companion, my wife. Santha.

>> I've got this wonderful picture of her. >> Yeah. >> She glows. >> That's me and Santha. We met when we were about 40 years old. And um. I don't think we've been apart more than. 4 days in the entire 30-plus years. uh since then. >> Wow. >> Uh we do everything together. We travel. together. Santha's a photographer, brilliant photographer. Um and and uh I. do not have a great visual eye. So, we. work together. I do the words, Santha. does the pictures. We have the. adventures together. We did the scuba. diving together. Santha nearly lost her.

life twice in intense currents. scuba diving. She's brave. She's an. adventurer. She's a wonderful mother. This is so important. Santha and I have. six children between us. Santha brought. two from her previous marriage. I brought two from my first marriage and. two from my second marriage. So, six children from three broken. marriages is a potential disaster. Santha brought them all together into a. group of loving, deeply committed. siblings who care for one another, who.

are constantly in each other's lives, who are there to support one another. Santha did that. by just being a brilliant, loving. person. So, I'm very happy. to have such a great partner. who's stood by me through thick and thin. and who's brought out these wonderful. characters in in in our children and now. our grandchildren. You know, nine. grandchildren, six grandkids. All of it's down to Santa. >> It's remarkable that through all the. wonders of human history and all the. things we talked about, that love,

like this kind of romantic love, is. so central, so important, so central to. our happiness. I just thought, "Oh, it's. so It's just a wonderful reminder of um. how easy it is to get caught up in the. material and and all the toxic, whereas, you know, so much of it comes from just the. simplicity of falling in love with. someone.". >> Love is what it's all about. And and. love is love is giving. It's giving. yourself. to somebody else. It's putting the other. person. Sorry, I'm going to end up crying. This.

This is what my [clears throat] wife. does. all the time with everybody. She puts other people first. And uh. others benefit enormously from that. I'm. very fortunate. I think I think if I hadn't met Santa. when I did and we hadn't formed this. joint life, I think. I would have made nothing of my life. Nothing at all. I think it would have. just gone down the tubes. I needed a.

loving steering hand at that point. Anyway, very lucky. I I I am happy. There are things that make me unhappy, of course, just like every every every. other human being. I I. don't understand why those who are. bitterly opposed to my work want to try. and present me as some kind of fraud or. grifter, but I suppose it's a easy way. to lazily dismiss somebody else. Uh. another thing that has been used. is because I've considered the. possibility of a lost civilization. having an influence on other known.

historical civilization, uh I've been. accused of racism, as well. That I've been I've been accused of. taking away the authenticity of. indigenous achievements. Um and and that again has been without. without any receipts. It's not been it's. just thrown out there as an accusation. Now, for me with with a multi-ethnic. family, uh that racism abuse that has been. thrown at me constantly uh is extremely. hurtful and extremely painful. It's one.

of the few things that have been thrown. at me that I actually cannot forgive. It's unforgivable to use that lazy. easy dismissal. In a society where a lot of people don't. read anymore, I mean, I can pretty much. guarantee people who hear that on the. internet, they're not going to go and. read the books and actually find out. what I said. They're just going to take. it as face value. So, that does hurt and. it does make me sad. But generally, I'm. blessed. I'm lucky. I've lived a. fantastic.

privileged life. I've explored the. world. I'm surrounded by love and. onwards and upwards as far as I'm. concerned. >> Well, you know, Graham, I think at the. end of the day, the thing that endures. is. the impact the curiosity that you've. you've provoked in people, allowed them. to wonder beyond the narrowness of our. lives, which is quite miserable. A. narrow life is feels kind of like a. miserable life where you can't be. open-minded and explore. And And that's. why I love these conversations. It's not. to say that I. that I always accept when I have these.

kind of conversations everything to be. 100% true. But the net benefit for me is. just expanding my mind to possibility. >> Absolutely. >> And like, please don't rob me of the. opportunity to expand my mind to. possibility. What would my life become without. possibility or hope or all these things? And And actually, when I look at. graphs like this that show how our. beliefs uh and scientific understanding. has changed even in recent times as as. recent as 2017. on this particular graph, I go, "Well, I'd have some arrogance to assume that I. know it all today.".

>> Totally. Thing Things are Things are. constantly changing. You know, every. turn of the spade in an archaeological. dig can change the whole story. Change. the whole story. This is not limited to. archaeology. This is found in all fields. where there are specialists. that they they tend to get locked into a. particular reference frame and actually. defend it in a territorial way. It. becomes like a war and they they they. feel absolutely responsible to defend. that territory against all comers and. will use any dirty tricks that are.

needed to be used in order to defeat the. enemy. So you asked me a straight. forward question, am I happy? Yes, I am happy and I. honestly answered you that there are. certain things particularly the racism. assaults on me that do make me extremely. unhappy. >> What else do I need to know about. the the possibility of an ancient. civilization that might inform how I. think about myself, my life and I guess. also our future. What I found so. fascinating is especially we're in a. moment of this AI revolution where.

you've got these sort of big forces of. you've got nuclear weapons over here, you've now got this advanced. intelligence, there's humanoid robots on. the horizon. And if there was ever a moment where the. word you know existential is being used. in a in a way that is probably. appropriate, for me it feels like now. >> Yeah, feels like now to me too. This is a no doubt. our species is poised on the edge of an. abyss right now. Our technology has outgrown our. mentality. and we're not.

we're not in good shape to deal with the. times that lie ahead. I I. unfortunately the chances of a nuclear. exchange are just higher and higher and. that's just a realistic assessment of. the way the world is with this maniacal. leaders. So what could we learn from the. past that we I I I believe we can learn. that there's another way to live, that. we don't have to do it this way. >> How do you know? >> I I that's that's something I believe. >> Okay, believe. >> That's something I don't know. >> Okay. >> I guess I'm optimistic that human beings. have made it through.

all these centuries, all these thousands. of years, all these hundreds of. thousands of years, that we've made it. through, we've made terrible mistakes, done terrible things. I mean, look at. the Second World War. God knows how many people were killed. there. 20 million Russians alone, if I. remember correctly. It's just horrific, absolute horror. It's on. When I was born in 1950, the Second. World War was only 5 years away and at. the end of it and it hung over us, you. know, you were our generation were aware.

of that, but it seems to me. people today aren't aware of the horror. of global war in the way that they were. then and and and that adds to the. to the danger that we will immolate. ourselves. I think a new approach to the nature of. reality is really vital. I think we we. need to begin to understand. consciousness better. Uh and what I would wish for the human. species. is that we understand we are actually. all one.

Incredibly diverse, full of creativity and differences, but. but all one and a mother in the middle. of sub-Saharan Africa and a mother in. New York City, they love their kids in. exactly the same way. They hope for their kids in exactly the. same way. There's no difference between. them at all. As long as we're as long as we're. indoctrinated into this notion of. divisive differences. I'm all in favor. of differences between human beings. That's part of our creativity as our.

species, but divisive differences, that's what's going to kill us off. Uh and that's I think the message that. comes down from the past, whether it's. correct message or not, the message is. we. a former civilization. made a terrible mistake and it resulted. in a cataclysm that brought us down. I think we need to realize that can. happen again. and that we are. most likely to be the cause of that.

cataclysm ourselves. There may there may be a danger of. further comet impacts. The Younger Dryas. comet fragments, it's called the Taurid. meteor stream. The Earth passes through. it twice a year. in June and in October-November. There are hundreds of deadly objects in. the Taurid meteor stream. It could. happen, but I think a much more likely. way that we're going to. bring our civilization. back almost to the Stone Age.

is nuclear war. We're going to do it to ourselves. Unless we wake up, unless we. become more conscious of what it is to. be a human being, of the privilege and. the gift of being a human being, and how. that privilege and gift belongs to every. human being, not just to us. Now, I don't know how that's going to be. done. I I I do think psychedelics can. play a role. I've said many times, and I'll say it. again, if I if I had the power to do so,

I would insist that every world leader. has at least. at least a dozen sessions of ayahuasca. before they even apply for the job. >> Because you believe that would give them. the same feeling of oneness that. >> I think most of them wouldn't apply for. the job at all. >> Oh, really? >> And those who did would would probably. do a much better job. >> Hm. >> Because they'd understand themselves. better. >> Graham, what is the most important thing. we haven't discussed as it relates to. our past and what it might teach us or.

you know, how it might inform how we. choose to live our lives today. and that we haven't discussed? >> Look, the most important thing as far as. far as I'm concerned is independent. inquiry. We need to start thinking for ourselves, and that's true of the past and it's. true of everything else. To the to the extent that I that I do. get positive feedback from young people, and I do. a lot, that feedback is. thank you for being an example to. question everything. >> Mhm. >> It happens that what I'm questioning is.

the past, but that can be a model for. questioning everything. I I feel that. that. very poor journalism. being used to smear my name because I. asked questions and because I asked them. vigorously. and because most important of all I. reached a large audience. That's it, really. They won't smear. smear your name if you don't reach a. large audience. You're not worth their.

trouble. >> I know the feeling. >> Yeah. >> But I think you do. But you know, for me. my thing has always been that um. all it's done is made me clearer, like, you know, you have a bigger platform, more people um watching you, etc., and. talking about you. All it's done for me. is made me clearer on my principles and. what I believe. >> Yeah. >> And I'm actually really thankful for. that in a weird way. >> Yeah. >> Because you're forced to, you know, when. you hear so many things said about said. about you, written about you, whatever, it does focus one's mind like, like, who. am I? >> Yeah. >> And what matters? What am I Where am I. uncompromising in terms of the.

conversations I want to have, the way I. want to do it? And that's given me a. huge amount of clarity. And one of the. things that I'm really I really want to. make sure is that it doesn't make me um. bitter or resentful in any way. >> And you can see how it happens. >> Yeah, I can I can absolutely see how it. happens. >> Cuz you you have to live with this with. with um. injustice potentially or being. mischaracterized or whatever, so. it's easy to see how one can slip off. into bitterness and resentment and to. >> That's a That's a big part of the work. I'm doing on myself at the moment. I I'm.

confident that I am doing the right. thing with my life. I'm doing no harm to. anyone. and I'm putting ideas out there that are. worth thinking about. I'm confident of. that. I have no I have no doubts about. that. >> And what will you care about on your on. your last day? >> Most of all. the love of my family. That's the most important thing to me. And um. I don't know. The feeling that. I did my best. I did the best I could to.

carry out the task that uh fell upon me. quite by accident. I didn't I was a. current affairs journalist in the 1980s. I had no idea I was going to go down. this rabbit hole into the ancient world. It was a series of accidents that led to. it. But having gone down it, I feel very. very very committed to it. >> It's interesting cuz well one of the. ways that I um I've always chosen to. conduct my interviews is just to um. touch people as I find them. I remember. once upon a time I had Brian Johnson.

coming on my podcast and you know, he's. quite a he's a he has some radical. beliefs about living forever etc. He's. the longevity guy. [clears throat] And I. remember one of my team members walking. up to me beforehand and saying before he. had arrived and saying, "What do you. think of him?" And I remember saying, "I've no idea. I've not met him yet.". >> Yeah. >> And then I sat down with him, had this. interview, and he said this thing to me. at the end of the interview where he. goes, "Thank you." And I go, "What do. you mean?" He goes, "Thank you.". >> This is the first time I've done an. interview in my life where the. interviewer had like no preconceptions. of me. And he goes, "That meant that I. was relaxed and able to be myself and. blah blah blah." And I And I say that. because.

my opinion of you is someone who is. really curious about about humanity and. has this interesting idea that is really. expansive for one's mind about what. could have happened. And um I again the. net benefit for me of that is just. expanding my mind in a way that makes me. empathetic to other people. >> Yeah. >> Makes me feel like me and you aren't. different. >> Yeah. >> Like I've not I've met you today, but. we're probably you know, we we we go. back a long way. Maybe consciously we're. the same, but. >> Mhm.

>> in our history and our lineage we are we. are one of the same. And um it also. gives me a huge amount of respect for. other living things including my. ancestors. >> Mhm. >> In a way that you kind of think of your. ancestors as these like monkeys that. lived in trees potentially. But actually hearing some of these. stories makes me go, "Oh my gosh." And. actually it gives me a huge sense of. responsibility. to leave this planet and this earth in a. way that's going to be good for, you know, the future the future kids. that will live 20,000 years from now in. the future and that will probably look.

at our um fossil records and wonder. >> I think I think those of us who have a a. platform do have a responsibility. >> Mhm. >> Very [clears throat] very definitely. I. mean, we're living in this strange new. world. This this this this this world. was inconceivable even in the beginning. of the 1990s. >> Mhm. >> This this [clears throat] this this. world of communication that we live in. now. And there's no doubt that that um. this is where influence. can be applied. And and. if that influence is.

encouraging all that's good in the human. race, then that's really great. That's a. wonderful thing. And if it's encouraging. all that's dark and negative and cruel. and unkind and vicious in the human. race, cuz that's also out there on the. internet, then it's not so good. >> We have a um. closing tradition on this show where the. last guest leaves the question for the. next, not knowing who they're leaving it. for. And the question left for you is, is there a danger of us sleepwalking. into worshipping a machine god? >> Do you want me to answer that question?

Yes, we're already worshipping a machine. god. As I said earlier in our. discussion, uh in the minds of many, science has already been elevated to. occupy the space that was once occupied. by religions. That is a belief in a machine. fundamentally that's taking place there. Science should be seen as a tool, one. amongst many tools that we as human. beings have at our disposal. It should. never be the only tool, and it should.

never be worshipped. I don't ever want. to hear the words, "Trust the science.". The words for me are, "Investigate the. science. See whether it's right for you. or not. See what else is available in. the in the in the situation. Don't just. routinely, without thought, without. question, trust the science. Don't do. that. That's That's betraying science as. well. One of fundamental ethics of science is. not to trust the science. It's to. question. and challenge the science. That's what.

we should be doing with the science. And. yes, we are in danger of creating a kind. of. multi-dimensional machine which reaches. into all aspects of human consciousness. and and controls us, yeah. We've got to stop worshipping science. That's for sure. We've got to. put it in its rightful place as an. incredibly valuable tool which which can. do great things for human beings, but. which can also do terrible harm and. damage.

>> Because when we trust science, there's. something we stop listening to? >> Well, when you put your trust in. anything, you better have good reason to. put your trust in it. If I If I'm going to trust another human. being. with my life, I I really want to know. that I can trust that person. I'm I'm. not just going to say. Oh, you're a doctor, so I trust you. No, it's not That's not enough. I want to. know more about that doctor. And uh in. in in indeed I have pursued that just. recently. Science is great. Science is really.

useful, but we're not. we're not being what we should be. We're. not. living up to the potential that the. universe gave us if we just go around. trusting everything all the time. We're. here to ask questions. That's what we. got these enormous brains for and this. incredible connectivity is to ask. questions. Anybody who says don't ask. questions is doing a great deal of harm. >> Well, I hope my audience are very. curious. Um and I think they must be by. now if they're still hanging around on. this platform because we've had lots of.

very curious conversations and hopefully. expansive. I We have this acronym DAC. obviously it for Darvo CEO, but also we. think of it as like. being for dreamers and open-minded. people, which is the O, and that the A. being about expanding awareness, and the. C really being about feeling more. connected. >> Brilliant. >> Like hearing your story and about your. your partner and your journey and your. parents all makes me all, you know, I. think if there's it makes us like. spiritually connected in a way that's. >> increasingly rare. If people want to. learn and read more from you, Graham, where do they go? >> Mhm. >> I mean, you've written so many wonderful.

books. You've got another one on the. way. >> I have another. >> all of these books you've written and. the others that aren't here below. >> Okay. Um um very briefly, the the. the book that put me on the map was. Fingerprints of the Gods. >> Yeah. >> And that's the book where I really. investigate begin to investigate the. possibility of a lost civilization. Before that came The Sign and the Seal, which was which was about Ethiopia's. claim to possess the lost Ark of the. Covenant. It happened that as a reporter. in the 1980s, I spent a lot of time in. Ethiopia, and I came across this.

tradition, which is fundamental to. all religious life in Ethiopia. Uh and. and um ended up writing a book about it. that. put me on the track of a lost. civilization, led to Fingerprints of the. Gods. Then, after Fingerprints of the Gods, there's a book that's not here, which is. Keeper of Genesis, that I wrote with. Robert Bauval. Underworld. This was 7. years of scuba diving that Santha and I. did all around the world following up. tips from local fishermen, local divers.

They'd seen something interesting, something that looked man-made at a. depth of 30 m just offshore there, and. they would take us and we would find it. Uh so, Underworld is about all those. flooded continental shelves, 27 million. square kilometers of continental shelf. were flooded at the end of the ice age. That's 27 million square kilometers. That's Europe and China and a bit more. combined. Uh were the best real estate. on Earth. uh 20,000 years ago and are all. underwater today.

>> And and there's signs that there was. life there. >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Civilizations though? >> Yeah. Well, there Well, we found very. large structures underwater. Um so, that's that's uh Underworld. Then, after Underworld, I wrote. Supernatural, which is that one there. Which has been reissued in America under. the title Visionary. And that's where I. went deep into the shamanistic. medicines, the the ayahuasca, psilocybin, the and and the whole notion. that cave art, the art that we see in.

the painted caves, is. an art of visions. That this is shamans. who had entered deeply altered states of. consciousness. They'd remembered what. they'd seen. And when they came back to. the everyday state of consciousness, they painted their visions in caves. It's the best explanation for cave art. and why cave art is so similar all. around the world. And so similar to the. visions of ayahuasca shamans to this. day. >> Graham, thank you so much for all that. you do. I I won't repeat every all the. reasons why, but you've you've blown my.

mind open in a way that's just driven. curiosity. And I think that's maybe. the start of all inquiries deep. curiosity, and that's what you've done. for not just myself, but the hundreds of. millions of people that have watched you. over the years um all over the world. And I hope long may it continue, and. good luck with your heart operation. And. hopefully we'll be back again to. continue this conversation soon. >> Absolutely. Thank you very much. >> it. Thank you so. >> Really good to be here. >> Thank you so much. That was brilliant. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm. where they know exactly what video you. would like to watch next based on AI and. all of your viewing behavior. And the.

algorithm says that this video is the. perfect video for you. It's different. for everybody looking right now. Check. this video out. I bet you you might love. it.