Grace Beverley: How To Build A Multi-Million Pound Empire At 24 | E69

one of the reasons i step back from. social media was because i if something. can manifest so. physically that you're having a [ __ ]. seizure. then you probably need to take this more. seriously and that was you know like. that was that was tough. and that for me is my happiness. grace beverly ceo founder of two. multi-million dollar companies. one's a fashion empire that's focused on. sustainability and one's a fitness. empire comprising a mobile app.

a supplements business and gym equipment. she did all of that. while studying and graduating from. oxford university while growing her. online channels to millions and millions. of followers. while writing a book and while dealing. with all of the things that every other. gen z person has to deal with at the age. of 23. 23 and on the surface it's easy to. understand while. looking in someone might love to have. grace's life. but as you start to peel back the layers. as we do in this conversation you begin. to understand. her obsessive attention to detail the.

weight of her workload. and the personal cost of her. accomplishments and you see. the impact that those things have had on. all parts of her life. and it makes you reconsider despite all. of this. she's persisted she stayed true to her. values she's doubled down on the things. she loves the most. and she's cut out some of the things. that no longer serve her she's learned. she's learned lessons that most of us. would take a lifetime to learn. and she's 23. it blows my mind. without further ado i'm stephen bartlett. and this is the driver ceo.

i hope nobody's listening but if you are. then please keep this yourself. grace i started my business at 18 years. old as well. you um you faced a different set of. challenges not only have you started. your business at an incredibly young age. or. at least you got into business at an. incredibly young age you face a set of. challenges that are even alien to me in. the sense that you are a woman in. business. um you are taking on various industries.

that don't want to be taken on and that. really are sort of. incumbent monopolies in the space of. fast fashion and fitness and those. things. i guess my first question is why did you. choose business. and what gave you the. what gave you the confidence to pursue a. career that's filled with so much. uncertainty at such a. young age i think i think people often. assume that the first part of it always. has to be a kind of.

i'm going to start this i'm going to do. this and i think that mine. absolutely wasn't that at all and i. think that that's what often makes me. kind of question. you know the amount of things that have. had to fall into place for this to. happen and of course you know there's. hard work in that but there's also so. many other things that have had to go. right. um so for me you know as i kind of said. when. i was 18 and working doing an internship. at ibm that's kind of when i started and. i just started doing some i essentially. started monetizing something that should. be monetized so it's content i was.

giving away. for free and then i was going to do lots. more of that and so i decided to. monetize it. via an ebook um and then you know the. next year i did more of that and then. that's you know then it started picking. up momentum i started doing different. products and i think that. that's i guess often not seen in the way. that business is. represented it's kind of seen as like a. eureka moment then you go and do it then. you put it into action then you fail. once or twice and then you get it. and that it was far more gradual than. that and i think that. probably over the past you know so it's.

probably been so it's been five years. since that moment i'd say four years. since the business it's ready that it is. now. has um i guess was founded um. and in that time probably the first two. years were incredibly gradual. very much a kind of residual extra. income um rather than. kind of this big like these are my goals. this is gonna happen within this time. um so i guess in that it's been a. gradual process. i think the confidence has gathered.

through that and a lot of the time i. haven't been confident enough to do that. but have i guess just done it anyway so. you know when i was when i did kind of. my second set of ebooks which was in my. first year at university. that was literally because my student. loan didn't come through like that was. that was the only reason so. as in i don't think it was necessarily a. confidence thing i think it was more. okay like what are we gonna do in that. situation. um and then putting that together and. then being able to you know leverage a. platform to be able to. monetize that so and then from then.

onwards obviously it's been very. mindful it's been very kind of strategic. and that's how it's happened but i guess. i guess the answer is that the. confidence hasn't always been there and. it hasn't always been a kind of i'm. going to take on this industry. sure starting tala that that was um but. but the rest of it. a lot of it has been gradual a lot of it. has been this kind of. more just a cumulative. making one decision at a time um.

which is i guess what i kind of try and. show as well so that people can know. that it doesn't always need to be this. one big decision. and this one big business that's going. to be the biggest business in the world. it can just be you know something you're. just doing in that moment. the world has changed recently over the. last 12 months because of the pandemic a. lot of people have lost their jobs and. so. freelance websites and entrepreneurship. has now become more in focus as. people are trying to find ways to give. themselves a little bit more stability. in their income. and when i speak to my friends that are. you know your age 23 years old right. 24 next week a week after sorry um or.

who are younger 18 19 or even. older um everybody seems to have a. business idea yeah and i'm sure you're. bombarded with dms. like this right everyone has a business. idea um there seems to be this. barrier between the idea and taking. the first step like making uh the. instagram page. and is the the barrier between that is. it confidence. in your view what is it i think. it's probably specific to the situation.

the person the circumstance so. you know i was when i was at university. if. you know i think that there was. something that came together to make me. do that but i was also at university. in a place and in a time that i could. take i guess. a a risky decision in terms of how i. spend my time in terms of what i'm. putting together i wasn't. i guess i wasn't doing a part-time job. at the time that i could have put into. that. and so you know part of it is. circumstance in the way that people.

a lot of people don't necessarily have. the. the backing to put behind it or it might. be the the time they can. put into it you know lots of people are. working three jobs just to make ends. meet and therefore. you know you might have an idea but. actually being able to sacrifice the. time spent doing that isn't an option. and i think but then i think a lot of. the time as well i think it can be. confidence out of that circumstance it. can be. um or outside of that circumstance it. can be you know. should i be doing this why should i be. doing this and i think that.

a lot of the ideas that i've had you. know i'm sure you'll. have the same like there'll be ideas. that you have kind of the whole time and. it's choosing the right ones and it's. choosing. and it's being able to test it i think. i'm sure if i tested out my first. i guess what has turned into shreddy now. if i tested that out. um you know even more gradually or if it. hadn't worked or whatever. i don't know how tenacious i would have. been in terms of actually making that. happen. and as i say it's been like an. accumulation of that confidence and. actually testing things realizing their.

work and then. replicating that so i think. i mean i think we can't necessarily. blanket apply it to everyone and be like. it's because of this it's because of. this but i think that you know probably. the biggest. the biggest factors will be circumstance. confidence um. and yeah i guess there are so many. things that can stop you but there are. also so many things that can enable you. to say okay. well this is this is this i'm gonna i'm. gonna make it happen or i'm gonna take. that leap or i'm gonna at least do the. background work we'll do a survey to see. if my product would be liked or. whatever it might be i think as well if.

people looking at you or. myself that have achieved things in. business will see this very polished. product right. and they'll think well i'm so far from. that so i'm i'm so far from being. capable. of what that person has achieved but as. you've described that which i think is. so. powerful and important for you it was. taking one step up. a very very thousand stair staircase at. a time. and and as you say when we look at you. now on step 934 we think oh my god like. you know you must. you probably get this comment a lot. right she's like you must be so proud of. yourself yeah. which is like well it's been one step at.

a time so yeah you know and i think you. can be proud of the steps along the way. but i also think that i look back at. some. not necessarily some products but you. know some branding some. content some all of that and i look at. it and i'm like it was crap. like that is awful like as in i would. just scroll right past that or i. wouldn't you know. and of course things have changed. people's like tastes have changed and. all of that that kind of goes into. branding and product and all of that but. there was something you know i've sold. everything from. you know like t-shirts to notebooks to.

like whatever it would be. it's not what the everything that's. accumulated now. is the good things that have then been. replicated it's not. everything gets kind of replicated and. then you know you see all of the. end products there have been some things. that never ended up as an end product. because they were so [ __ ] in the first. place that they were never you know they. didn't deserve that extra time on them. so i think you're completely right there. is this kind of and i i think it's also. perpetuated by. you know unknowingly often by people.

like ourselves so. you know like i i think i look at the. stuff i share and i look at it and my. god i'm so much more likely to share if. it's this or. you know if this product worked out well. and. and subconsciously because there was an. end of that journey we don't necessarily. say like oh this was the thing that. actually went really wrong. because you know it's embarrassing like. you don't want to share that you don't. or you don't kind of think too because. you don't think of the kind of like. pride in the journey that's got to that. point. um and so it i guess it all does. you know you will just see the the good.

things or you might see the bad things. that are positioned in an. inspirational way but it's still curated. but it's still. what i guess is want to be seen and to. to my other point about being uh a woman. in business. that comes with a whole unique set of. challenges you know i've heard you talk. about being. underestimated not taken seriously. before speak to me about some of those. challenges that i wouldn't even. you know know about so i think first. i always also think it is important to.

preface this with the fact that. yes i'm a woman in business i'm also. white able-bodied. i was privately educated i went dogs but. a kind of huge. list of things that need to be. i guess contextualized which i've always. thought is. important and i think that i think that. it's. you know i won't face half the. challenges that. a black woman would face in the same. position i think the challenges i do. face are you know they are.

kind of often and they have to be they. have to be worked um. through i guess and and that's been you. know. a journey there have been you know. people who. have wanted to work for the businesses. who clearly. won't accept the fact that you know this. i'm not the face of it like i am. acting ceo and you know i do do x y and. z. and there have also been you know it's. been the same with partnerships it's. been the same with. you know i think people people have a. certain perception that's definitely.

warped and increased and perpetuated by. online presence and the fact that i. don't just. share my work and um and i think that. you know it does come down to it does. come down to these preconceptions and i. know as well. since i've started realizing this i have. preconceptions as well you know we'll. say like. it's about a woman who's high up who you. hear about and you're like oh god. they're doing really well. like why don't i have that and i think. you know i often think like oh well you. know apparently they're really hard to.

work with or like they're like whatever. and. we all have these own kind of like our. own like internalized. sexist whatever it might be. preconceptions in terms of these things. as well and. i think that it often comes for women. who are successful you look at them you. either think. you probably think one of two things you. either think or maybe one of three. things you think wow amazing. must be superwoman or you think wow. amazing. but like oh i've never seen a partner or. like children like. do you think they're happy in their. personal lives or you think.

wow but they're kind of like either they. haven't actually done it they've just. been put at the front of it. or they're like a [ __ ] or really you. know. really [ __ ] or like a tyrant or. whatever it is and like that is. and i think that when i look at that i'm. like actually that's probably the way i. see some people you know that's probably. the way that is. in some ways for you know for. for me and my conceptions and i think. that it's it's just it's it's what it's. it's what it's become and it's actually.

obviously got better in some ways. you know it's got hugely better since. probably like the 1950s and whatever. but there's still a long way to go in. that respect. when i knew that we were going to be. having this conversation i i looked into. the general sentiment around your brand. and you've got a huge. hugely engaged wonderful community of. people um you've got this you know this. true. like i'd call it a fan base or. supporters that understand you and they. get you probably because they followed. you for a long time. and they followed your vlogs and they. like know who you are right and then. as is the case with pretty much every.

um successful person i've seen there's. also the antithesis of that there's the. opposite there's people who. as you said we will try and highlight. reasons why. you maybe don't deserve to be where you. are you don't deserve credit this is. something that pretty. most of the guests i face um i've sat. with have faced to some degree. it's it's not easy to take right because. um i know right i come from a slightly. different background but. i know that irrespective of background. you have to work hard really.

really [ __ ] hard be honest with me. how does that feel. i think that i think it's an important. discussion to have first and foremost i. think that. and i think i'll be the first to say. that and i think a lot of you know i. spend a lot of. time in the book for example. contextualizing success because i think. it's. very important especially when you know. you're presented. three people on your instagram feed with. in the same square and one of them you.

make from school one of them's you. like your mum and one of them's beyonce. and it's kind of like this. democratization of. the news feed that makes everything look. the same and you don't see. the teams you don't see the privilege. you don't see all of the above and i. think that it's a very important. conversation to have so. to be perfectly honest i'd be rather. people have that conversation. and maybe write off my success based on. that. i think that i think also aside from. that i do think that you know a lot of. the people who. the people who do follow me and have.

followed me for a long time know my work. ethic. and they know that i work hard and they. know that you know often that's been an. unhealthy amount you know. i use work as a coping mechanism so it's. been through the worst times of my life. that's what i know i can do. and that's what i throw myself into and. i think that. i'd rather that conversation be had and. me be able to know. in myself why i've been successful and. how i've worked. and i think that i think that that's. you know i guess first and foremost. that's important and that's how i'm able. to.

i guess push through and be able to do. what i do. is because i know why it is i also know. that there have been things that have. helped me. and then you know i guess that doesn't. matter i guess the. important thing is that we're able to. have the conversations and able to like. i'm able to know as well. in myself i know that's a very mature. position to take. i've got to be honest it's a very mature. position to take but i. i'm skeptical as to whether it's always. been as easy to take as that and you've. you know so talk to me about the process.

yeah i mean i think that any justified. criticism. or you know might be justified it might. be unjustified criticism is hard to take. i don't i think you can have a mature. standpoint towards something. and equally you're still going to feel. like a punch in the stomach of course. and that's and that's fine and i think. that. one of the things that i wouldn't wish. you know when i think for my. children that i wouldn't necessarily. want them to be in is i wouldn't want. them to be. in a higher profile position when. they're younger um.

and because i you know i talk about i. have this whole chapter in. the book which is essentially a i guess. probably like the most honest i've been. in a long time because. it's you know as i've said it's a. there's no instant feedback loop. there's i can write this and not hear. about back from it for you know like a. year. and it's me talking about how actually. essentially i feel like a lot of. i became known at a time where. my self-confidence was at its worst and. therefore i was able to. i guess rather than feeling that lack of.

confidence with confidence and. self-worth. i filled it with validation and. therefore when i decided to take a step. back from social media because i decided. that wasn't. what i wanted to do kind of first and. foremost as my job. that kind of bandage was ripped off. because it didn't exist. and that's when i realized that you know. these things are the things that we need. to be able to deal with and we need to. be able to. i guess cobble together to be able to. you know no matter whether this person. thinks x y and z about yourself. how much does that matter if it does.

matter and if you do think it's wrong. are you going to do something. about it and can you still get on with. your day essentially. and i think that there are people who. are amazing who i see on social media. who i wouldn't give a single. criticism to that i can think of that. i'm sure get the exact. same thing and there are people who have. been to hell and back and get the exact. same thing. and there are people who actually have. done you know have lucked out and. get the exact same thing and in the. grand scheme of things i don't think it. necessarily matters i think what matters.

is that you know in yourself. and you also know that if there's. something you need to change. then you can change that like if you. want to if i guess sometimes when. something. like other things you know like hit a. nerve or whatever like do you need to. change that do you need to address. that do you need to do better um so i. think that. that's that's kind of how i tackle it. but of course no there's not like a. something in me where i you know get a. message that says you look ugly and i'm. like thank you. that's not an initial reaction but i. think that you have to be.

you have to be rational when we're not. designed to be taking this much feedback. and criticism or. even if it's not criticism if someone. like i say the whole time oh i don't. like that. color i don't like like clothing or like. whatever it might be. to the designer that might like rip them. to shreds or whatever it's not mean. it's an opinion and we're not designed. to be able to take that in so. i think that there has to be a sort of. rationalization on a human. part or on your like if you are in that. position you have a duty to yourself to.

learn how to deal with that or to remove. yourself from the situation. otherwise it's just untenable i guess. um you've got you know two businesses. two key businesses and. um when you run a business when you're. young irrespective of age. you undergo a couple of things real like. unexpected chaos at any given moment. then also a tremendous amount of. sacrifice. i actually want to start on the. sacrifice piece because i don't think. people as you said earlier get to fully. see the full picture. of sacrifice and cost um both personal. and professional whatever.

so talk to me about some of the. sacrifice that even you didn't expect. before you got into business and before. your business grew. um i think that at the same time as i. kind of benefited hugely from. the you know having money at university. for example. i also went to university expecting one. thing. and then actually spent it essentially. getting up at x hour working on.

university stuff because i never ever. ever wanted to give them an excuse to. think that i wasn't. concentrating fully on my university and. then. working all the way essentially. way into the night to get the other. stuff done and i also you know that. comes with. being high profile that comes with all. of these things so i guess one of those. things was very much like there was the. time. and the life experience and all of that. that because things took off. quickly at one stage even if it wasn't. like. it wasn't that the businesses took off.

you know the businesses have done much. more over the past year and a half or. whatever when i haven't been at uni. but at that point you know the the high. profileness. all of that that came with i guess. different to what i was expecting um and. um or not what i was expecting i wasn't. expecting it at all and therefore there. was kind of i guess. you know something that i really did. want for myself i didn't get but i also. got. um you know a lot more in another way. for yourself well i just wanted the. university experience really and i think.

that i was. so once this took off i'm a very. determined person and i. i get i get a vision and i'll work for. it. day and night and i think that i. actually. got to i think in that instance you. it's kind of like a fork in the road and. you decide okay well i'm taking this one. and i'm going to concentrate on this i'm. going to grow the businesses and all of. that and then. i think as well i saw the deadline for. that as my end of university because if. i had to. if it wasn't as big as i wanted it to be.

by that time or if it wasn't. you know whatever it might be i was. gonna. choose i was gonna go into a normal. career um and i think that um so. i was so dedicated to making that happen. rather than you know i wanted to grow up. too quickly essentially i'm. 23 like i you know i'm and i think that. a lot of that has been. i guess in terms of people's whether. when it's people who meet you their. kind of perception of you or whatever it. might be and so i think that was. something. where it was a choice i'd make again and.

again but it was i guess a sacrifice. that i wasn't. expecting to make and i guess that comes. with everything that comes with you know. relationships with friends. with time in general with. you know time to yourself time to. whatever i think. having a business in a way and i'm sure. some people will disagree but i'm. having a business in a way is like. having a baby and you can't just. you can't just like up and do whatever. you can't. you can't say no when a crisis comes in. at 1am you can't like.

that is what it is you get all the other. benefits. with those conditions and so i think. that you know that's. kind of a constant one like you can't. you can't say oh i'm gonna. quit this and go and do this for two. years because. especially when you've got x amount of. people working for you you've got all of. their salaries you've got all of their. pensions you've got you know like. it's it's a huge responsibility stops. with you right. yeah and and and that's you know it's. it's. it's an important one do you sometimes i.

reflect on uh. the business journey and just how like. obsessive it is and all consuming it is. and i think it's a bit of a disease i'm. like. why did i choose this to like it's. almost like masochistic. yeah like obviously it's got the most. amazing benefits but it is also like i. remember what. i remember my friend i can't remember. i think i really we'd agreed to just. just lock down things we'd agreed to. watch a movie. on a sunday night and then the sink came. up and i was just like. you know what i'm gonna like i'm gonna.

do this i'm just gonna work harder so. it's just gonna be easier for this week. and it was like. tiny sacrifice and my housemate turned. around to me and she was like. what is the point of were you working. this hard for this many years if you. can't watch a movie on a sunday night. and i was like. yeah like as in like. you're not wrong like i'm still gonna do. it but like you know you're not wrong. like it's what is the answer to that. question though so say. because i've muddled over this as well. if i'm working obsessively every day at. what point does. is enough yeah i think that it all comes.

with what you want and i think that you. know i've. i've listened to you before and i've. listened to you kind of saying that you. know there came a point that you. realized that it wasn't about money so. like what was it about. and i think for me there's the kind of. aspect of. it's it's for the businesses and i have. these really clear dreams for the. businesses that result in dreams for me. as well. sure but i think that that is. i think i'll come to a you know if i. decide to sell a business or whatever. i'll come to that road there where i'm.

like okay what is it for now. and i think that knowing myself anyway. i know pre-business post-business i'm. sure. i am like that so. whether it's this or whether it's. something else or you know and i hope i. can channel that into something else at. some point that. doesn't require every inch of your being. and. i know i'm like that so it's kind of. like yeah sure it might be for nothing. but it's i'm gonna. do it anyway like there doesn't need to. be reasoning behind the fact that this.

is. how i am i have always been. i've always yeah i've always been like. this i've always been kind of like. i'm gonna make this happen like whether. that's kind of through like. coordinating all the babysitting jobs. that you got in one night and allocating. them out to your friends. and stuff or you know like taking. essentially like any. job ever that like that i could. then you know that's all that's what i'm. like so i kind of know that. where did that come from though i.

i think probably a few things i know. that. everyone in my family is a very. hard worker and that is very. it's kind of almost like an like an. anxiety. to do well even though like my parents. were. not pushy at all i think people assume. you know especially if you go to. oxford or like whatever but the least. pushy people ever i think that actually. it all.

i kind of was discussing this with my. sister the other day was like where does. it come from. it doesn't come from our parents like it. comes from them clearly because they had. it in themselves. but you know like they both my parents. had careers when i was growing up i. lived with. my mum just me my mum and we had a. tenant who lived in um my mom's house. and my mum was. working pretty much all the time. incredibly. like i respect her so much for it. because i also never grew up thinking. like oh it's weird for a.

woman to have a career and have four. children and like whatever she just. you know she worked all the time and um. and she loved it she. loved it and she gave her like. everything to it and so i. i think i spent a lot of i spent a lot. of time. kind of in that situation knowing that. i also wanted to love what i do and i. think there. is this mislead like perception that you. know like if you love what you do you'll. never work a day in your life blah blah. blah. but i also think that there is this like.

it's a flow state isn't it like you have. something that matches your. challenge and your skill level and you. get more fulfillment than you'll get. from anything. and i think i was so i used to say i. remember saying like. i i think it was like when i was like 15. 16. and i would take like work experience. from anyone every single holiday. and every single school holiday and i. remember. my teachers saying that you should. probably choose one of the avenues and. then you can do like more within that or. something. and i remember just saying to them like.

i'm so terrified that i'll be stuck in. something that i hate. and it was like a constant like and i. don't think it's necessarily good i. don't think it was necessarily healthy i. was constantly so terrified. that you know the same was for. university the same was for whatever. like. i didn't get into oxford the first time. i applied i i. i and i went again like i literally that. same day. i went online and i found out what i. could do for a year that would earn. myself some money to be able to not be. i guess studying that year and went to.

um and applied for the ibm future scheme. which is the one they do for. gap year students that that literal same. day. and then applied again the next year and. like as in. i was i'm very like that it's. very set on kind of one thing and if. that thing then doesn't work. i either want to do it again like it's. really clear to me i either want to do. it again. or i'm like that wasn't right and then i. move on but i know that i'm. very straight out and very.

like i will not stop until like yeah you. get it right. what's the uh actual the business and. the chaos in the segment. can is there one day in your business. career over the last couple of years. which was your worst day. um i mean or your toughest challenge. i think my toughest challenge in general. was. there was this stupid stupid time that. i'm constantly praised for. that was the worst decision i've ever. made in my life which was that i was. coming up to my university finals.

i was launching a business to i think it. was a month before. my university finals yeah i was. launching a business beginning of. may the 7th may if i'm right um. and i started i finished my finals on. the 6th of june. now that meant that 40 000 words were. due and. five three-hour exams within the space. of two weeks. and i also wanted to launch my business. and i also wanted to. do well at university i'd been working. with that for three years. um but i'd persuaded people as well i'd.

be persuaded people to spend money on. this launch i'd persuaded people to you. know so i was going to do it right. people were like you're amazing like. this is so great like how can you do. this. and i'm like you are like it's not wise. it's not smart like it's not like this. isn't a competition for how many boxes. you can take within a small space of. time. that is like a fast track towards. burnout and. either something going incredibly wrong. or whatever and i think that that you. know like as i've said work was always. a coping mechanism for me so it's always. kind of like well if when if we.

have to do it now or we like run out of. money before launch and we're doing it. now and i don't care like i can. work x y and z and i actually have like. a whole like. chapter in a book where i'm essentially. talking about like that was the time. that i felt most validated in being a. hard worker. and i felt like because i was i was in. the library at 3am and i was also. on the phone with the suppliers at you. know 7 a.m the next morning. and all of x y and z and people could. see it and i was living it i was like. hustling the hustle and that was when i. was like wow. like this is it like i am the hard.

worker. like with capital h w and like this is. me. and i think that that is. like that kind of like sums it all up in. the way that that was. a huge challenge also an incredibly. unwise challenge at the time. and yet why did that feel like the time. i was doing it right. so that's actually that's a lot of what. spurred on essentially why i was writing. the book because it was kind of like how. can that be. the epitome of hard work when that is. also the epitome. of not being productive like that's.

like completely unproductive um and. not useful for anyone you're not gonna. be nice with the people you deal with at. the time. you have a higher chance of actually. like messing things up and all of that. and yet why was that the one time that i. felt like. truly validated for what i was doing and. you were broadcasting that. and i was broadcasting that and there'll. be people i'm sure who see me now who. are like. she you know did this and that and like. yeah sure i work really hard i. really do but there are some things that. it's kind of like i addressed that and.

like as i said to you while i was. writing the book there were so many. things that i noticed i was like i'm the. problem here as well. i perpetuate this how can i criticize a. culture. of the hustle culture that i. benefit from at the same time how can i. do that. and i think that i think that that's. what made me. you know that's why i say that this book. was such like a soul-searching process. for me because i was like. you know what is that why is that like. is that because i need the validation. is that because we all need the. validation now because hard work has.

become so. unobtainable because it has to be doing. this job that job. like everything in between also being. amazing at self-care also doing like x y. and z. and i think that that's when i was kind. of like okay this is a challenge. but it's not only a challenge it was a. silly thing to do so it's not even like. a. you know there are things you have to do. there are crises you have to deal with. and all of that that will. be a challenge and will also be. incredibly rewarding and all of that and. most of them are but i think there are. other things that you look at and you're. like. yep this was a challenge and it also. didn't have to happen let's not do that.

again. as you guys know i'm a massive fan of. hill i've been consuming the products. for about four years now and you know. that i attribute. much of my health and fitness goals that. i've achieved over the last 12 months to. heal. more recently i've started having the. hot and savory. bags of fuel and as someone that really. loves to have the ready to drink cure. it's actually been really nice to find a. product that is a meal but still gives. me all of the protein. and the nutrients and the minerals and. the fibers that i need for my diet so. i'm now on the hot and savory journey. join me if you want to.

my favorite flavor is the thai green. curry flavor. i like to add loads and loads and loads. loads of cake and pepper to it because i. really i'm from africa and i really like. spice. so give it a shot you mentioned burnout. yeah um. and i remember reading a quote in a in a. piece that you know an interview that. you did where you talked about. mental health generally and how you know. you'd reflected that maybe you weren't. representing mental health in the right. way i think you said um. you were giving advice but it didn't. apply to yourself in terms of like. talking and being open about it.

i want to know long way back i've just. been digging through every two and a. half years. yeah i just wanted to get a flavor for. everything oh yeah no i appreciate. home it everything but talk to me about. your mental health and the journey. you've been on with your mental health. since you were you know 18. um well as i've said i think probably. a one of the reasons that i think i. you know in that in that pose to give. context i guess i said that. i am one of the biggest advocates for. people talking about their mental health. we have mental. health days like within our the company.

like. you know you can take days off and you. can literally just take a duba day and. it could be. you know because of your mental health. whatever it might be and i'm the biggest. advocate for that and talking about it. and everything. and then as soon as it came to me no. like that was. not it's not the same case like i'm not. going to talk about it i'm not going to. deal with it and it actually got to a. point that i was having. seizures essentially um from. something really horrible that i went to. that was through that was essentially. ended up giving me ptsd.

that presented in seizures and obviously. i was having symptoms up to the point of. the seizures but i only took it. seriously when it was a physical symptom. like when it came to the point that i. was like okay. like i'm being hospitalized now like. this is not ideal. at all and that was the thing that made. me slow down and that was the thing that. maybe or not even slowed down i didn't. even think i necessarily hugely so down. after that but it was kind of like. okay this is real and this is just as. like if something can manifest so. physically that you're having a [ __ ].

seizure. then you probably need to take this more. seriously and that was you know like. that was that was tough that was. right before my third year at university. that that started and. um everything up until then like i've. been a i think i have this like really. toxic. mental health attitude within myself. that doesn't prioritize it that isn't. kind of. that kind of sees it as weakness even. though that's the last thing that i'd. see you know in any of my friends who. suffer from depression or anxiety or.

like whatever it might be. and it's completely different it's like. we don't get the same treatment like. i'll give you no i'll understand that. and i'll see that and i won't do that. and i'm sure there are lots of people. who are the exact same. you're not being compassionate to. yourself exactly and i think that that's. another reason why i really needed to. like look inside myself and be able to. evaluate that and be able to look at. like why. like why is that the case like why do. you feel so. undeserving of the justification for. like. you know having bad mental health at one.

time and i've been lucky that you know. apart from. this which was a result of specific. trauma. i've generally been you know i've had. generally good. mental health and i've you know been. able to. deal with like i guess you know like i. think a lot of the way that mental. health is presented is really. damaging in that you know people do i've. had friends who have kind of said like. oh yeah but. you know i don't want to take. meds from my depression or whatever and. everyone has different views on it but.

it's kind of being like. well any other chemical imbalance in. your brain you would because you'd say. like hey i need this to offset this or i. need insulin to offset this or whatever. and yet it's like a it's a thing it's. like a. you know what's what's she called like. mrs trunchbull you know. from matilda that you like have in your. brain that's like you do not like get. this or like you do not like deserve to. have that compassion or whatever it. might be. so i think like i've had a and i think. i'm what's so strange is that i don't. know about you but i'm able to talk. about mental health really openly.

and i literally had so i thought it was. really important for me to. um i think as a business owner i think. it's probably important for. all i mean i think it's important for. everyone but for business owners i think. it's important for everyone to get. therapy because you're not meant to go. through that much chaos. all the time like you're not meant to. have three messages a day that could. kill your business. and yet you do and you're like and then. you're like the next like 15 minutes. later you're like. so what's that like your fight you get. you get like programmed to. get up again like second nature and then.

you never deal with things so i kind of. i kind of decided i was like i'm gonna. get like i'm just gonna have it once a. week and it's just gonna be literally. like an offload. and i sat in it for kind of like two. months and i was like. i'm like i haven't cried yet and i'm a. crier so i'm clearly talking. about my mental health as if i'm doing. an interview and if i'm like. you know just able to talk about it like. yeah like i think it's important and. like this is. and it's like this is everything that's. okay to talk about this is everything. that's not and i won't address that.

and i think that that's something for me. to i guess to deal with. and i think that the important thing is. as an owner of a business that. has people within it and then you know. and as someone with a platform and all. of that. all of those things make it really. important for me to. treat mental health properly both for. myself and for other people. but i don't think i do but you are. setting a really remark you know. what you said there about being a. business owner and it's important for. you to get therapy one of the other. points that i think. of good that you'll be doing by doing. that is you're setting a precedence for.

all of your employees. that even me as the boss you know and. that creates a safe space for other. people. in my business it was the same so we met. we made mental health therapy opt out. yeah i saw that yeah so like and it. meant that the men who were hiding in. the back that didn't wanted to be tough. guys whatever you know i was going and i. told the doctors the business. my fat co-founder to go as well and that. week my co-founder dom said he got um. something like 11 messages from men in. the business that had been suffering. from mental health but just had never. spoken about it. and he became like the de facto male. therapist in our company for that reason.

what i wanted to go back to on is the. point you know you talked about. this build up that you had which. culminated in you being hospitalized. with your mental health. um i had i had a guest on the podcast a. couple a couple of weeks ago. and she was uh she's a kayaker and she. something. something changed in her life and it. meant and she wasn't listening to her. body. and ultimately she ended up getting. chronic fatigue syndrome where she went. from being a kayaker that could kayak. for two hours. to not being able to lift up her hands.

and she said there were these warning. signs in my life that i just ignored. until my body went listen if you're not. gonna. listen to me then we're shutting down. and it sounded very similar to what you. were saying so my question is what are. those what were those warning signs that. you were in some respects. by the sounds of it ignoring yeah i. won't talk about specifically. from from that perspective i do think. it's important to talk about. in terms of burnout as a whole. so when we i think the same thing. applies to kind of like. the way that this kind of productivity.

like. rat race comes across now is that. you essentially need to be working as. fast as you possibly can it's not. productivity at all. it's working i guess if you look at. productivity like the definition. is that you get the most amount done in. the least amount of time. but that has fine like that taken as one. and then that's multiplied so you're. getting the. most amount done in the least amount of. time so that you can do the. most amount in the least amount of time. again rather than being able to just. you know do that and move on and find. that's good like we should be you know.

we should be efficient we should be. effective. all of these things are important but i. think that. you know it's also the equivalent of. expecting. someone like that or a marathon runner. ultra marathon runner to sprint for the. whole marathon like. it's ineffective they're not gonna win. they're also probably gonna get injured. you know there's nothing beneficial. about it and we see. it from a physical perspective and we. completely ignore it from. a mental perspective or from a work. perspective. and i think that that's why it's so.

important to talk about especially you. and me. people who are essentially will be seen. in some way. as like what hard work looks like that. results in success. or whatever it might be the. acknowledgement. that working hard does not mean working. all the time. and like having it all does not mean. like doing it all. and all of these various different. things that actually are important to. look at. from ourselves as well because like as i. said like i realized that actually. probably i was perpetuating a lot more.

than i meant to and that was why i then. ended up. needing to perpetuate things because you. know i constantly wanted to show people. that i was actually working hard. which actually all it gave off was this. is how what hard work looks like and. therefore. there's you know it's probably stopping. a whole generation of people who. actually want to do something but. see something you know i'm not that type. of person i actually don't get up in the. morning and want to read like some. disgustingly. boring like non-fiction book and like. but actually. being able to acknowledge that and find.

some middle ground. and find some realization that it. doesn't all. like it's not going to be the same for. you as it is for someone else and the. same goes for hard work. um and i think for for me you know. i now and i think largely because of. having written this book. i now see when i'm lagging i now see. when i need a rest i now see. you know i'm able to construct a working. week that essentially you know is able. i'm able to. be ceo at both companies and i'm able to.

do all my work and i'm able to do. my own work too that isn't just. responsive to other people's work. and then i think you know and i'm able. to. culminate that in a way that is i guess. a livable way of me working. and there have been times where it's not. that there's been times where it's you. know. like hell to leather and doing. everything possible but that's a needs. must amount of time that is not. representative of what hard work looks. like. and then being able to recognize that. within myself and say like that's okay. like you're not weak because you have to. sleep like you're not weak because you.

have to. you know like sit back sometimes or your. creativity just isn't coming out. you're just like a human or not even. like even machines can't do that like if. you had a machine like working like it. would go into override. or if it was set on the wrong thing or. if it was you know like doing too many. things at once. it would go into override so like we. don't it's not even that we don't. realize we're humans we don't. realize like limits at all we just have. no boundaries yeah and i think that's. that's what's important there's been a. there's been a big shift. i think over the last i'd say two years.

there's been a huge conversation around. burnout right. and it's gotten to the point i did a. post about the day but it's gotten to a. point where. it i actually feel bad talking about. working hard and i played around with. that idea because. um on one hand you can be deceitful in. the sense that you say like i. i work 24 hours a day and i never sleep. and on the other hand you can be really. deceitful and saying listen. uh hard work doesn't matter self-care. and like yeah yeah yeah. sit back and put on a face mask yeah. like i don't want to lie to you i still. work really hard but obviously there's.

nuance and balance and sometimes i don't. have good days. yeah yeah but i don't know anyone that's. really successful that doesn't work hard. i don't know any athlete. 100 percent i think what i even realized. that was after i kind of went through. all of this like self-discovery and. writing the think pieces and all of that. and then i sat down to write the. productivity method and i was like i. feel like. gordon ramsay telling someone he's like. an idiot sandwich like i literally feel. like i'm being. that harsh just because i'm telling you. that actually if you want to get that. done you've got to get it done.

and like i think that's why the whole. reason i repositioned it rather than. you know it's not just because as soon. as you're that then you're. equally as harmful in the perpetuation. of like self-care culture. that now has these knee-jerk reactions. that's either like. it's like a cult and it's like this. wellness thing or it's like. a waste of time there's like a middle. ground like that is important for. everyone but it doesn't just need to be. kind of like you know like face masks. and everything it can be. it it has to be like part of all of it.

so yeah. you might work till 3am from. 6am every night for a month. i would argue that that's not that. possible beyond that point. like it might be and you might be an. incredibly hard worker and you know like. and. i perceive myself to be but you. still at the end of it all you still. need rest and yes you're completely. right there's no. glory and no kind of benefit in also. perpetuating the completely the other.

side you know. sometimes self-care is the most. productive thing you can do but also. sometimes productivity is an act of. self-care like. you need to it's self-care to look at. that project that you've been putting. off for. three weeks for the 50th time and. actually get it done that's self-care. like that isn't it doesn't have to be. you know this that or the other it. doesn't need to be compartmentalized. into like. you know some forms of work or self-care. some forms of self-care are. like what you know like it goes both.

ways and i think that. that's what's important i think it's. rather than choosing one or the other. it's just real. it's like being realistic and being you. know you don't always need to be like. disarmingly like i've had a bad day. today because i also feel in the same. way like i can't be asked to do that the. whole time like. i don't like when i've had a bad day i. don't instantly think like ah i will get. the reward from being vulnerable by. sharing this on social media like that's. not my instant reaction. but at the same time there is an. importance and i do think that. people like us also have a duty to be. able to share.

both sides even if it's that being like. you know like i was up till. 11 last night writing a crisis plan for. something like you know like you. you constantly have these things and. it's like. and then like so there's just so many. different. types of i guess there are so many. different angles to it. and as long as there's kind of a more. realistic thing as long as you don't. feel weak to say. that you sleep or whatever and you also. don't feel. like you're being like really mean to. say like you have to work hard to do. well. both of those things are wrong so like.

there must be a middle ground. and that the the left side you speak you. speak so i'm just calling it the left. just because it was the left. i raised my left hand when i described. it i'm not saying it's the left. but it is it's like. um i've always considered myself to be. more left than i am anything else but um. i felt somewhat alienated by this kind. of lack of personal responsibility blame. someone else um pessimism culture that's. emerging from that side and i in some. respects it's someone that's been a.

social media for about. almost 10 years i understand the. algorithms will create echo chambers and. they'll reinforce. things and you'll and they're actually. polarizing us to be the right and more. on the right and the left. on the left and my point here is that um. i like to be a bit more nuanced so i. don't think binary solutions to complex. um. problems ever make sense left you know. rich poor black white. um left right whatever it is and i post. posted something about um personal. responsibility. and being grateful and things you can do. if you're feeling bad.

and there was a lot of people that said. i was and i actually take this to. compliment they said i was toxic. positive and there's this whole new. this whole phrase not being too positive. being so positive that it makes people. feel bad. and i don't give a [ __ ] right like if we. also think we have toxic things within. ourselves and that's like it's toxic. but also like you can tell me i'm. toxically positive and i like. if so for example like i might be the. same in that i know that you know. i'm not i would consider myself probably. like a realist like i wouldn't consider.

myself like a. constant optimist but i also know that. like. my coping mechanism for anything going. wrong is to make something else go right. so if that needs me to work hard if that. needs me to push. completely into work for 40 days and 40. nights but like i'll do it. but i think that you know i think. cor you know being able to label. something as something doesn't. necessarily. mean that it's bad i think sure if. someone thinks that toxic. positivity then fine a.

i don't think that necessarily needs to. be kind of you know like. nothing is going to be nuanced enough on. social media for you to understand. unless it's like a 2000 word. think piece but i also think that like. these things exist like we all know. some of these like i know that i have. bad coping mechanisms in some way i know. that. i don't need anyone else to tell me or. if they do like it's fine but it doesn't. like there's no benefit here like you're. still gonna think that way and therefore. if you're sharing more of your thoughts. it's still gonna be like that. you might be toxically positive but it's.

that's you know that's. you and that's what you're also gonna. say and like that would also be. you would also be lying to then say okay. well i'm gonna make this more realist. and so i'm gonna do x y and z and i'm. gonna put that out there. and then there are going to be more. people who say the other side so it's. like you can either spend your life like. swinging back and forth between like. what people perceive to be right and. you're never going to get everyone. because. obviously as you say it's completely. polarized but or you can. it kind of be like yeah you might not. like this i just my whole stance is like.

i've read a lot of stuff about. psychology studied psychology for a. little while. i i've had my life experience and if you. follow me you're here to get that stuff. and you don't have to agree you don't. even have to like it and there's loads. of other and i think i just really. destroyer today. there's loads of places you can get like. fluffy you know face masks so the answer. to everything stuff it's just not here. because of my lived experience and i. understand i have a you know a bias. because i'm an individual that's had an. individual experience when i was. stalking you online grace i found it. really hard to find a boyfriend. i was i was looking a lot like i was. like i was.

i found like i was like [ __ ] we'll. try google images google images. like these are just friends and then i. was like yeah i mean i don't think. anyone will find. a boyfriend probably until i'm maybe. married with kids but i mean as in. there's not good there won't be one. yeah yeah i'm not looking for it's not. there's a boyfriend there because i read. some stuff about you meeting this guy. when you're like 15 and then you oh no. no. there's not a boyfriend there oh there's. not a boyfriend there's not a boyfriend. but there's never going to be a boy from. yeah being young being. successful being a woman i know where.

this is going yeah. so maybe i don't have to ask the. question i'm just saying like i asked. this question a lot of guests because. probably because i've struggled myself. right so being young you're a successful. woman in business. a lot of guys quite just going to be. honest would be quite intimidated. right you don't have to answer that but. they would i'm one of them i'll tell you. i'm not speaking for myself i'm speaking. from some insecure friends that i have. that would feel intimidated by their. their their partner who is a woman being. successful that's just. some men are insecure enough to find.

that emasculating yeah. talk to me about the difficulties of. having. romantic relationships when you are. young. you are successful you are a woman um. i'd say it's not necessarily what i'm. concentrated on first and foremost and. just just. from like you know i want to do. lots of things before i concentrate on. that um i also think that. one of the things that i i guess i found. because like what you're saying is.

true um but i think what i find. comforting in that is also the fact that. like i don't. want to be with someone who finds that. masculinity so i think it's quite a good. um it's quite a good kind of whittle. down yeah because. yeah if you find it emasculated like. that you don't. any other thing that people might not. like about someone you don't want to be. with someone who doesn't. you know like my work is the biggest. part of. me and that's really sad it's not but. like it's a huge part of my life and.

it will be and i would never want to be. with someone who thought that was any. sort of like great um and so. it doesn't necessarily i mean maybe it. will trouble me down the line. but currently it's kind of like yes i. completely agree. i think people do find it intimidating. and emasculating. i also think that that's kind of you. know as i say. that doesn't necessarily change anything. because it's actually not you know i. would have no interest in being with.

someone who. can be emasculated by that so and at. this point in your life do you foresee. in the future at some point you wanting. to be with a partner. yes yeah yeah i mean i think i think. naturally i think a lot a lot of people. talk i'd say probably the large yeah. yeah and i think that it's important. especially with women not to presume. because i've made that mistake you know. yeah no i mean i've i you know i. couldn't. have like one friend who i think of her. i know she she knows that she doesn't. want to. like ever have like a life partner like. she doesn't it doesn't make sense to her.

which i think is completely. i i think makes sense you know like but. i think that absolutely at some point. and um but i'm in no rush i mean i'm. very young. when that day comes yes um what are the. the difficulties you see in the current. way that you live your life. and forming a relationship with whoever. this person this lucky person might be. um i say the first problem is probably. going to be. closet space.

i think no i think in general. why is grace difficult today and why. probably yes you should probably ask a. few people um. no i mean i think that i'm an incredibly. loving person. and i'm incredibly. dedicated to the people i love and. that currently is filled by amazing. friends. and family and people i'm lucky to have. in my life. and i think that that will you know.

at some point as i say like that will. absolutely hopefully. be filled by you know that type of. position but i. i think that the difficulties would. probably just. you know be about around understanding. that work is as important as it is to me. and i think that you know like i've had. relationships in the past and that is. you know like that. does it does become a problem and i also. think that. you know then you can't necessarily. combat that by having someone who's the.

same otherwise you're. never gonna see each other like i think. i probably you know would want someone. who has the same values in that way. but there has to be like a kind of. middle ground or there has to be then. you know some sort of way in which you. will see each other once every 15 years. or something. um but no i think i think the troubles. will be. around work and they won't be around. emasculation because as i say that. wouldn't be. you know then there's no space for that. um but i think you know in the same way. as i'm able to be. a great friend and family member and.

you know all of that now it's. to me it's an extension of that to me it. won't be you know any different i know. in my qualities you know i probably. probably the part of the reason why. that's not what i want now is because i. also know that i. care a lot about that so you know if i. am in that situation i will give a lot. to that and currently i don't have a lot. to give to that. so you know i think it's a. prioritization for me and currently. that's. not a priority yeah how has running. business.

and the way that people have treated you. in business especially being a young. entrepreneur i reflect on this in my own. life. changed you as a. friend as a person you know your. patience your snappiness. your tolerance i think i'm a lot more. i think there's a part of it that's. actually quite interesting that i've. been thinking more about recently where. if you're in business and you call the. shots how does that develop in. friendship. so i i've actually talked about that.

recently i don't think i've. you know i've had to grow in confidence. to say especially to. for example men who have far more. experience than me and are technically. you know working for me like there's. been a point where it's kind of like. can i say like that this is not right or. like whatever. and i've developed that but i think you. know i think i've now developed that. well and i don't think i have a problem. with that now. and therefore i think that you know. there's going to be part of that where. you then like how does that switch off. automatically the second you step. through. your door and you're with your family or.

your friends or your housemates or. whatever. and i think that that's probably. something that i'll. you know i'm very grateful that i think. someone once. asked me like how do you stay like. grounded and down to earth and i think. that. that i don't go for the types of friends. that. obviously my friends like bring me up. and they're my biggest fans but. there is no smoke being blown anywhere. they will be the first person. to also say you know and that's what i. value like i don't want to be.

in a superior position in friendship in. family relations in whatever it is i. will never be with the friends and. family that i have and i think that. that's so important. and i think that that can absolutely. affect people. and i think that you know i've seen. people then surround themselves only. with people in their position or only. with whatever. and i think that you know one of the. most valuable things i have is that a. lot of my friends are. in entry-level jobs and i'm able to see. from their point of view what's the most. frustrating thing about their workplace.

and not feeling valued or whatever. and i'm allowed i can make sure that i. try. like my best to make sure that never. happens for people within mine and i. think that so you can get those you know. you get so many benefits from having. different people around you. primarily like no one is kind of. there yeah as we say what about when the. bill comes. oh well first of all i'll be pleased to. hear that my friends like to go to a. very cheap place okay. which i also like i'm i i love a you. know. nice dinner and a nice like whatever but.

you will not i mean. you you'll find me buying a bottle in. the club if it's one of my friend's. birthdays or like whatever you know like. i. love treating my friends i love taking. them on holiday like i love you know. but it's you can tell when that's. someone who's there for that i also have. the large majority of my friends have. been around. me for a long time and um i think. i i generally trust myself to be a good. judge of character i've got it wrong. before. um you know i've had things where i've. kind of like taken people on.

trips left right and center and then you. can tell that like that was the aim. um but like in general actually you know. i have amazing people around me and like. i think we i'm. i like to consider myself a generous. person and i want to you know do things. like. like yeah sometimes i will just be like. i'll just get this or like whatever it. might be. and and i'm in a position to do that and. i think especially if. you know there'll be a friend who's been. asking for a workplace for. a raise for three years and it hasn't. even gone up with inflation and that's.

kind of like oh. and it's not the it's not compensating. for that but it's being. like you need to be able to be grounded. enough and like. whatever to be able to still be a friend. to people who are in. you know either a very different. situation or like whatever it might be. and i think that i never. want to lose that so yeah i'll buy nice. things for people and i'll do that just. as i would for. any like anyone like my sisters or. whatever if they need something but it's. not.

i think i'll tell instantly and maybe. not maybe i'm being walked all over by. everyone but i'm happy so. no i mean we find ourselves in the same. position largely right and i think the. interesting point is. you've been successful and the people. that you love you want to share that you. know you want to have good times and. good experiences with but being. realistic. mathematically they won't be able to. have those experiences. unless you create them right and so that. creates a bit of an issue for you. because you want to you know have good. times with your friends but you know. that. you know that you're you're gonna you're. gonna have to. create that situation whether it's a.

holiday and it's not a problem for you. because you love these people and. they're good people. but it can sometimes create yeah of. course and there's a i think also like. the important thing from. because i know people who talk about. that problem but also. they love the flex so it's like okay if. you're complaining that you're always. the one paying for the bill and you're. also the same person saying for three. weekends in a row let's go to nobu or. even one weekend like. it's [ __ ] expensive like you know. like you're gonna like. that generates a certain type of thing. and i think that.

you know that's not necessarily their. fault then but i also think that there's. a. you know if you want to be doing that. all the time and you're the only person. person in that position in your friend. group then you're you know there's a. certain thing that's demanded of you. but i think like at the same time that. you can be a good friend and be like. very generous and like like i. understand that i'm incredibly fortunate. to be in my position and i want to get. them nice christmas presents. like whatever it might be and take. people on holiday like if. you know i want to go or whatever it. might be but um.

i think yeah largely yeah it's a. difficult it's not a difficult position. to be in like an incredibly fortunate. position to be in but there are there. are things that come with it and i think. that. you know thankfully i haven't been i. guess like. harmed by that too much and i you know. intend to. i don't want that to make me a bad. person and i don't know. it sounds like you're keeping the right. people around you that's probably the. most important thing right people that. will tell you when you're stepping out. of line. oh trust me yeah exactly tell me the. first person to be like this comes. across. awfully crazy.

thank you so much. you guys will hear me mention a service. called fiverr quite a lot especially if. you follow me on linkedin and instagram. and this has been another week where. i've really relied on fiverr to help me. and to help our business extend our. capacity. this week we're having a newsletter. website launching called. mentalwealth.com which is being. developed on fiverr we're also. using a freelancer we found on fiverr to. cut the edits for this podcast. promo that will go on my social channels.

and this is really the beauty of fiverr. even when i was a ceo of a company with. 700 employees or even now when i don't. have a company and we have a much. smaller team. there are still moments where we need to. extend our capacity. usually because of you know we've got a. sprint or a project to do in a. cost-effective way. thank you to them for sponsoring my. podcast and if you want to check out. fiverr there's a link in the description. below that's fiverrwith2rs.com. ceo we've talked a little bit before we. go on on. we started recording about working. culture and how working culture has.

changed and how the pandemic has shifted. things to being. you know um working from home what do. you what's your take on working culture. and how teams should operate and how. your teams operate and stuff. so i've been reading a lot about this. recently actually um general things you. know like rework. work rules like all of those types of. books talking about working culture and. i think that. the main point of interest for me that. i've kind of been exploring obviously. has been the idea of working culture but. how we internalize it and how our lack. of boundaries within this generation has.

meant that we're. have no boundaries between work or not. work so it's kind of you can be working. anywhere and everywhere so when you're. not you've kind of internalized this. idea that when you're not working. everywhere and anywhere it's the. equivalent of like. being in an office and taking a nap like. just because you're living your life. and i think that that to me is the most. that stands out as the most problematic. kind of side of working culture within. our generation i also think that that is. that is coupled with you know like.

companies like google for example who. are seen to have really. good working culture because they. support their employees they you know. unlimited holiday all of that. some of that is also a thinly veiled way. of making people work more because they. don't have to do their laundry they. don't have to cook their lunch they. don't have to. um you know they're not going to take. any of that holiday if they're given. unlimited but they do feel valued so. they work harder. you know and i think that it's really. complex and i think that it's not. necessarily like. i definitely couldn't deconstruct it as. a whole and i probably perpetuate it in. some ways but i think that.

it's important that we look at it more. and more now these boundaries are. absolutely. gone especially you know i started. having some of these. thoughts and feelings when i started. working from home before we progressed. to having an office. um and i kind of was thinking like why. am i working more than i ever have and. producing. less than i ever have and also my mental. health is on the floor yeah yeah and i. think that then when. kind of there was the office exodus. going. at the kind of pandemic um and then. people kind of saying the same thing and. all of that and i was like oh good.

and i'm like why am i feeling happy you. know the fact that everyone else is. struggling too. and it was you know it's a lack of. boundaries we have awful boundaries. surrounding work surrounding success. surrounding all of this. and it's part of a generation that i. guess bulldozes boundaries. in a kind of progressive sense but it. ends up meaning that we actually don't. know where we stand we don't know what. is good for us and i guess we. are constantly on the hustle train being. told to like do more think more achieve. more. like xyz without ever questioning.

whether it serves us because that's what. we've. been put on like if you're a hard worker. you have to go in that like. kind of way and i talk a lot in the book. as well about like the. i guess the kind of contradiction. between the. progressing values of like a four-day. work week. and you know amazing you know places. like. um nordic countries that have amazing. work rules and all of that. and at the same time like at literally. the exact same time and often by the. same. you know people the same kind of um.

examination of it. we also have this idea that you kind of. need to work all the time it's like how. are we. progressing in these two completely. different directions and we don't. necessarily know which one. is right and then if we're going down to. the full day work week is that because. it makes us more productive so. technically it's actually to make us. like. work more or produce more or whatever it. might be and so. i guess it's it's all just very complex. and i think that there's not enough. examination around it. in the mainstream i guess like you. should be able to if you're in the. financial position too.

and you want to and everything like you. should technically be able to. take your work down to four days a week. or whatever and that. seems like the most ludicrous suggestion. ever. because you know you could always be. producing more you could always be doing. this you could always well then you. should side hustle and that three day. weekend you get and like. x y and z and so i think it is i think. it's damaging. and i think that yeah as i said and. there's something funny here well. you know because we're talking about. ideas that we would probably never live. ourselves.

yeah like you're not gonna oh no three. days off for a [ __ ] weekend and. i'd love to yeah would you because. you're gonna go insane. but yeah um but i. but yeah no i think it's completely true. and i think that part of this has been. me being like okay. this is really unhealthy this is. actually problematic this is. xyz and yet and you are the embodiment. of all of this. trying to figure out but that's. important and i think social media. discourages that type of thought because. you have to be on the defensive. you have to say like yeah this is a bad.

idea and this is a bad idea and yet i do. both of them. you you have to either acknowledge it's. a bad idea or not acknowledge it's a bad. idea and just do it. you can't have this like cognitive. dissonance of thinking one thing and. like doing another. because yeah like sure that's a bad. thing in some ways but also like. you have to accept the fact that you. don't always think what you're doing is. a good idea or you don't. you know you know something's good in. theory but don't do it or whatever and i. think social media completely bulldozes. that opportunity. because you have to like stand firm you.

have to stand your ground you have to. and i found myself actually getting. quite one of the reasons i stepped back. from social media was because i. felt like i was justifying myself. constantly not to not outwardly. to myself because i was like i need to. you know but like if i agree with this. why do i do this and like all of that. and i think that i had to be like this. is causing so much like i'm going into. overdrive because i don't know how to. deal with. the fact that i have multiple thoughts. at once because social media makes you. linear. it makes you yeah it makes that like.

lack of nuance. like your thing like it's the mo and so. i think that the. i think that's kind of okay where i. realized that like we just can't discuss. anything like you have to choose your. camp you have to choose your. like whatever you um when i first came. across you it was a couple years ago it. was actually on twitter and i think. well i don't know i followed you you. followed me let's just go with you. followed me because it makes me look. better. um and i went on your profile and i. remember going down and thinking here we. have an influencer who actually. like stands for something and that was. my only like real sort of. uh that was my first sort of take on you.

another couple years passed by whatever. and i i wondered as i was you know going. through some of the tweets more recently. that. you know people just talking nonsense. whatever i i wondered. you know there's a cost to that there's. a real cost to standing for something. because then it's much easier just to. stand for nothing because then. i can't attack you for anything right. because you don't you know but when you. decide that you want to stand for. something whether it's sustainability. or whether it's certain values you then. are interrogated for perfection yeah. and one human step out of line we've got.

you. yeah no absolutely i think the same's in. everyday life but it's magnified to a. point you know. in the same way i remember when i i went. vegan like three years ago now and. i um my friend said that my friend. the reason i went vegan was because my. friend was ill at the time and she. couldn't eat any dairy products and she. was upset about it and we were um we. were actually going traveling together. and so i said i would do it with her and. we were like let's just try it like. it'll be fun and i was like. [ __ ] i really do not want to give this.

up um but we did it and then we actually. stuck to it and i was kind of like i. actually like this. it works really well for me um and um. i and she was saying how hard her. friends were taking it and how like. they were just like you know be like ha. you just ate that that actually. apparently has like this and it's like. it's the same. it's just magnified and i think that i. think that part of its projection. we don't like to acknowledge that we. think one thing and sometimes do another. in ourselves but we love to pick it up. on other people and i think part of it's.

just. as we say it's the binary of social. media it's the lack of. kind of you know it's the fact that that. is. going to happen and i do you know you. find yourself doing. things the whole time where you're like. oh yeah we shouldn't have done that or. like whatever. and i think social media amplifies that. to the point that it's. so much more of a big deal than it needs. to be sometimes it doesn't need to be a. big thing like i'll stand by the fact. that you know. cancer culture fine like in a lot of. ways not great in some ways like there. are some areas. yeah really shouldn't be said or.

whatever um. but i think that there's also like an. aspect of that that's kind of. you know we live our lives constantly. thinking one thing and doing another. like cognitive dissonance like we you. know. like you know you should be better for. the planet and yet you still buy fast. fashion or you still. like eat meat every day or like whatever. it might be. it's how we operate and i think that. that isn't allowed on social media. i don't think that's like a then like a.

complaint i think it's more like a. that's how social media is and therefore. if you're using it in that way there. kind of needs to be. an acknowledgement of the fact that. that's just. like i know that and i know where i go. wrong and i know. you know like where i'd like to do. better and that's for me. to deal with so you know and so i think. that that's. something that we see across our lives. and it's just hugely magnified. when you made this decision to step back. from social media i know you hadn't. posted on youtube either for about. 11 months i have all my dates was there.

a part of you. that thought you would let this. negativity of social media win. i don't i think any time i've thought. that i've realized that it's completely. untrue because i've realized it later so. when i step back from youtube that was. about. that was a you know a bit after all the. things i've talked about that like i was. going through. and it wasn't right for me and.

i just decided not to do it and i think. that also part of that was a business. decision. it's a like lost to income in the kind. of short term. but everything i've done for the past. three years has been towards longevity. it hasn't been about the short term. because i've been able you know at the. beginning i accumulated enough to be. able to make that change and to be able. to say okay well i want to. i want in two years time if i want to to. be able to disappear. so you know that's i think. rather than i don't think anything has. to be a defeat. like sure it could be some people.

couldn't consider it that for themselves. like great that's fine then we both win. because i realized. and once again i talk about it like i. talk about kind of like the thought. process behind it. in my book and i realized that kind of. that was actually. not you know i had this choice to. be full time influence so i guess with. my businesses in the background. and i also had the choice to lean in and. really make these businesses something. and make them. you know like much bigger and have the.

potential of. you know growing them huge maybe selling. one one day like whatever it might be. and i think that i decided as well but. actually what made me happy in the. actual work itself was the head down. get it done even like the crisis. management the working with the team. until three am the building of brands. all of that that like i was so young and. still. am that i hadn't even started my career. like sure i had. but i like everyone i guess anyone at. any time can. do three years of something then decide.

to go to business school then decide to. stop and do writing or like whatever it. might be. that was my change that was me being. like actually what do i like in the. day-to-day. it's not you know whatever like there. was a lot of stuff that i was doing that. i did love. but i a i saw what was happening. down the line i saw that it was really. hard to maintain that after a certain. amount of time. and as i said i've always had this kind. of constant anxiety that i'm going to. end up doing and something i don't want. to do. which has made me be probably quite. proactive and actually being like.

actually. no i'm gonna do x y and z to make this. not happen. and i think that you know sure like. there was part of. you know there will be parts of it where. it's like oh and also even better than. that it means i won't get the negativity. but i also. loved the sense of community i loved you. know at that time actually. i didn't get much negativity at all like. and i don't think you do necessarily. when it's kind of like just a sharing of. your life like. people loved especially the fact that i. was at uni for three years so i was. showing a really realistic like i'm. still just gonna be in my one room. home um like you know doing another.

essay like it's not that exciting and. people loved that it was. i think because you know once the. channel grows it often gets unrelatable. which. you know people have different arguments. about that but like for three years mine. had to stay relatable because i was. still within that same room writing more. essays. and i think that i absolutely loved that. like i. loved that and i will cherish that as. part of my career that i really did love. i think i know that what i'm doing now. is what i'm meant to be doing i also. think i'm really good at it. and i think that i feel fulfilled like i.

i genuinely feel fulfilled. um most if not every day what are you so. what are you what are you doing now in. terms of your. your focus and your um. i guess the question that i wanted to. ask to that point is. what are you as it relates to your. businesses like i think about the same. question for myself. what is the bit that you're really good. at and that you think you know what. that's the piece. that where i consider myself to be. irreplaceable so.

i guess the more i you know as a ceo. or a founder who's moving into another. or whatever it might be like you. you step back to work on the business. rather than in the business right. so the more i step back i think the more. you then realize what you're really good. at because those are the things that you. keep having to jump back into. and you keep realizing that like yeah i. could get this person to do it and i. could delegate it entirely which you. know you try and do and then it keeps. coming back and it's not quite right. and for me that's marketing and branding. that's like the you know the thing and. that. is i also think that a lot of.

successful businesses are you know. founder-led businesses. are the ones where i was talking to a. friend about it the other day actually. are the ones where the um founder is. product and brand. and they still have that involvement. whether it's just at vision and their. briefing at the beginning of a process. or whatever it might be. that is where the concentration is. because that is what the brand. is and we are in a generation where. brand is. everything and so the you know the house.

of cbs the like what. you know the yeah they're all they're. all. their brand and and beyond brand their. brand bleeding through to product. and so you know it's good that that's my. concentration as well because you know. that's definitely paid off. but i also think that that's the things. again and again that when i was having. the discipline to step back. and to actually you know do what i. should be doing which is not being in. the execution all the time being in the.

lead and being in the vision. those were the ones where i realized i. was like okay i have to be in this in. some way. sure even if that's you know as i say. writing a brief at the beginning of the. process. or mentoring that person through the. first few times or. being at the end of the approval process. whatever it might be. those are the things that i nothing. will go live without that going through. me not at every stage at all. but there are stages whether that's the. beginning the end both. whatever it might be it sounds.

remarkably similar to. many of the founders especially young. founders that i've spoken to who have. that realization like ben who's been on. this podcast as well from jim shark. um even like huell julian who runs hum. where at some point. i'm speaking more about ben here you. have and to be fair myself as well. because at social change i wasn't doing. process finance yeah. legal all that nonsense i was doing. brand marketing. um we have that realization that um that. is your strong point it's also the bit. that you love and all the other things. the process the business stuff.

those were systems that were created. long ago. and that there are tons of very you know. better people than you. to handle those things and it becomes a. case of where will my. investment of my time um return the most. for the business and i don't think. people have that conversation enough. because i think young founders sometimes. feel like they have to be able to do. everything right i think that is. the materialization of this hustle. culture i think a lot of that. led it's the kind of like idea of so i. talk about this thing called like. announcement culture which i thought was.

a thing but then i actually looked it up. and isn't anywhere. so i kind of like defined it within the. book about the essentially the idea that. you know success is valued as more. within this generation once it's. announceable so it's not the. underlying stuff even if that was doing. more it is everything that is. announceable labelable all of the above. so. it also comes on a micro level within. our everyday like we like to tick thing. we like to see the things ticked off. like we like to you know we'd probably. rather see 10 things ticked off our. to-do list than have actually made some. real. thinking progress in a concept that like.

whatever because that's. the way it's you know you feel more. productive you feel like you've done. more. and i think that that's also an area. where where. founders people on social media who. within businesses whatever. they need to be seen to be doing. everything to be validated and i don't. think that's a personal problem i think. i've had it 100. i think i still have it at certain. points but you know. it's a validation through being told. you're legitimate. because you do things and like i'm not. gonna lie. i don't know half of the [ __ ] that goes.

on in our finance meetings. and i will sit there and i will look at. it and i look at you know and it's like. that's great and i need to be over it. and i need to have that understanding. and i'll ask the questions. but i also think that the second i let. that. fear of illegitimacy by not doing. everything. leave that was the second that i was. able to actually be a leader. because i was able to realize that. actually. what if if i'm better than everyone at. their specific things then we've got a. business that is as big as one person. like as it goes like you should hire.

people that are better than you. at their specific disciplines so like. even if you're like if you're. micromanaging if you're. being like a bottleneck if you're like. whatever it might be. you are automatically causing. a problem or not even necessarily. causing a problem it might work that. you know like it might go to plan but. you are restricting. that growth that potential that. magnitude of the business. because you are and it's for your ego it.

is not for anything other than your ego. even if that's an innocent thing even. you know as i say i still do it i'm sure. at points. even if that's you know like you want to. be said to be on this project that did. really well. and i think that as a founder you have. to get to a point where. that ego of course it's like a. validation thing and it's coping. mechanism and you'd like to think that. you always do the best for your business. but especially when we're looked at. online and when you know we need to be. seen that we're involved in this that. and the other. because otherwise people think you know. like especially someone who i'm sure. lots of people think i'm just the face.

of the business whatever so like maybe i. need to prove that i do x y instead. but the second i stopped doing that was. the second i. as i say was actually able to do my job. remarkable when i was 18. 19 20 starting the business because i. was young i'm gonna be honest i. definitely feared hiring. really experienced people because i. thought well how am i gonna manage them. and. are they gonna and they're gonna figure. out that i'm not that experienced and. it's gonna be difficult and so i look at. the first 10 highs i did and they're all. like kids. yeah i'm like why did i hire 10 kids and. then i get to a point where i'm like 21.

22 and i start social chain. and i hire some really experienced. people then they go on to higher loads. of because. the person the people because they know. yeah they know what their teams need to. look like i always say in our companies. i'm like the most important people are. the people you have hiring all the other. people. right absolutely and that my life became. 99.9 easier when we got better people in. and i. i fell back and stopped letting my ego. or my insecurities run the show. and the other thing which i wasn't. expecting is it actually makes you. look so much better when your business.

works. like i i think the thing is that like. you've got to ask yourself. yeah would you like the business to have. the glory or would you like you to have. the glory. and like then realize that if the. business has the glory you still have. the glory. but you just have to wait a bit like you. just have to. not need to be validated every day by. the fact that you were involved on that. project that did well or the fact that. you signed that off. i don't need to sign something off if. the team is made of people who are. better than me. and like fine actually i'm sure there. are people who are far better than me. within branding but it's my brand.

so like you know like still that's going. to be that's going to be like put in a. certain direction. but i think you're completely right i. mean i actually hired. you know in my final year of uni i. actually had three students. working for me or one student and two. fresh grads and they were great. like they were fantastic and to like and. i think they're. you know amazing one of them still. working within tala now. and i think that i think that that. actually was my only option at the time. like oh i couldn't afford to hire you. know like any more than that and it was.

people who. i put them through like so many tasks. and i was like i need you to be the. right person because. i'm about to launch business and do my. finals at the same time so i'm going to. be outsourcing and i always say actually. a lot of the reason for my success was. also the fact that i was forced to. outsource so early. based on the fact that i was at. university and oxford had always been my. dream as i say i. applied twice like i was not going to. let it go i thought i deserved to be. there and i proved when i was there that. i did. and i think that that i was so committed. to getting to the end of that.

getting what i deserved and you know and. being. proud of myself even though that wasn't. necessarily my dream anymore that was my. like childhood dream i was so convinced. that that was gonna happen that i had to. outsource immediately essentially like. and who was that first key senior hire. that came into your business and how did. it feel. when you you know you saw the salary and. you thought [ __ ] yeah so. so salary wise those those are more. recent those are much more recent those. are. within the part actually probably right.

before i finished uni. there was someone who we hired and. i was like but i actually. managed to get someone else to hire them. so so. to work on essentially what would be my. account um. so the but even then i was kind of. looking at that and i was like you know. like that. regardless of who's hiring affects the p. l so like you know what and. but then more recently there have been. you know we've been hiring. ahead of product from sweaty betty you. know like all of these like the people.

it's but also like those are the ones. where i have to like hype myself up. during the interview because i'm like. you graduated from my university 20. years ago yeah. it all ties in as well because as soon. as you realize that you don't need to be. that person. you also realize that they're not. wanting you to be that person they want. to come in and do their expertise.

they don't want you to be like oh i just. want to check over this because. i'm the founder or i'm the ceo they. yeah they just want to do their job. and the better they do their job the. better you do their job the better you. do the job the better they do their job. it like it's all cyclical but it's like. ego and validation. and legitimacy that ties together to. make this kind of big old like cauldron. of like. this is probably ineffective but i have. to be. not even validated i don't think it's. vapid like i don't think it's like. you know i don't think it's necessarily.

ego in a bad way i think it comes from. like. the fact that all of us have some. insecurity that needs to be. you know especially if you start a. business young and especially if you. feel like oh. like wow i'm in this position like you. have to be. you either you're like incredibly. confident somehow and like completely. full of yourself but i genuinely believe. that most of us have some insecurities. about. yeah and so like it's all tied in i. don't necessarily don't think it's bad. thing i don't think it makes you a bad. person as i said i have a lot. but i think you have to recognize it and. i think that's the first thing i'd say.

to i actually had a. fellow founder messaged me like two days. ago and she was like i just wanted to. tell you what you told me about a year. ago. saying um like everything you know she. was at the stage where i was like you. need to be hiring people. and she's like but it's expensive and i. was like i know but they will pay for. themselves. because like if you you know like even. not even necessarily the right people. like even if it's admin even if it's. like whatever you. should be doing the things that only you. should you can do whether you're. self-employed whether you're like. whatever it might be. and you know like my my like i grew up.

like my dad was self-employed like all. of these things and i think. you see you're like there are. so many different ways of working and i. was thinking because i've seen people do. things one way like i need to prove. myself and i need to do that. proving myself is more effective if i. have a team of amazing people. and that's been like one of my biggest. biggest lessons. i asked you then what your you know what. you were really good at within the. business you talked about branding and. marketing so i'm going to ask you the. opposite question.

as the boss as um grace beverly the ceo. um what are you really bad at. big silence. kevin i think. i think there's probably like we're. going to bring in her pa now. i think there are probably a lot of. things i think i think there's. definitely i think one of my things is. the thing we've been talking about. getting involved where i don't need to.

be involved i think that's probably. you know and i think i have an anxiety. around that that actually you know there. have been times where i haven't got. involved where i probably should have. because i was getting too confident with. my moving away. and then it just wasn't right and the. product didn't shift enough or whatever. it might have been. and so i think probably what that's one. of my main things and also. only recently have i realized how much. confidence i have to have in people. and i think it was actually based on. talking about how shitty some of. google's. rules are actually in work rules um the.

book about. google working culture um he says that. like one of the most important things. at google is that they encourage and. empower everyone to be like their own. founder so like if they're on. a project like they should be founder of. that project and they should feel. empowered to. also like look at me and be like no like. this is not how it. and like and i think that that stood. with me so much because i was like you. know what. like the next day i emailed someone who. was you know hiring. someone within their team and they were. like should we get them on this or this. and i was like you decide. like you you know you decide we know the.

end goal. any way we get there i'm happy with you. decide instantly. so that you know like because people. also want to be empowered with that and. also people often. you know do much better when they're. given their responsibility. and so i think that some of that what. we've just been talking about is. probably one of my biggest weaknesses. because i'm so terrified that. something will go wrong and obviously as. the you know. success as many fathers and like all of. the you know all of that like you.

have to take responsibility when it goes. wrong it doesn't matter whether it. wasn't you whatever it might be. i mean something goes wrong right yeah. with your brand mm-hmm. grace beverly mm-hmm is the one that. they 100. hold responsible so in turn over but. also something goes right. for true but in turn over here says. something. responds to a dm yeah whatever you've. got to. almost justify that even if not even. justify it but it. apologized and it's happened it's. happened multiple times and. i think that how do you not then go to.

the intern and say. because i i i think if it was enough for. me to do that i think it'd be much more. gracious for me to just probably get rid. of them as in essentially to say like. this is not the right place because it. also. you know there's a par there's an. element of that that's not understanding. the brand that's not understanding who. we are or ethos or whatever. and if it's that far out of line and. it's like okay well this is a mismatch. here then. but i think that so my two options then. e both of them involve like you know. being gracious in some way and one of. that is fixing it if i genuinely believe.

that it was an honest mistake. and it came across wrong or like. whatever it might be then. fine and i will work with them to deal. with it and i don't believe. you know maybe someone will disagree but. i don't believe i have ever. ever ever gone to someone and be like. how dare you you've sacrificed this good. like like. you know you've done all of that because. also they do the work every single day. to make. the company great and yeah it's. frustrating like trust me like i don't. see that and think like. it's fine because last week they did a. nice post or like whatever. but like there is still an element of it.

that's like frustrated and that's like. feels like you've taken 10 secs back and. is terrified that you're about to be. cancelled or like whatever it might be. but there's either a decision then to. decide it's a mismatch or to decide it's. still a match and it was an honest. mistake. neither of those involve like ripping. someone to shreds. so how do you do sometimes though when. you do get like emotion and business. it's your baby it's it's sometimes you. know. anger or i don't know frustrations they. do manifest themselves.

in business in some ways like i'd be. lying if i said that i didn't have days. where i was frustrated and people knew. i try not to be as much as i can i try. and remain a little bit calm especially. when it's most chaotic yeah. especially in offices i think that's. particularly like we have the luxury now. i'm like. no you can't see me like as in you know. i think. i i often. like i think probably the near our. office the like cafes. they know me well because i will go in. there i will take myself i will exit. because i don't. i think in life and in business i don't.

believe. in i don't think i necessarily. react in that way naturally um and i. think to my detriment sometimes because. you know sometimes you do need to just. say you know this is absolutely not. right or whatever. but i think it's the same thing as i. kind of talked about before like you. know i'd rather. work out the best way to deal with it. there have been times where i've picked. up the phone and i've been like what the. [ __ ] has gone wrong. like why would you do that like this. makes absolutely no sense like this is. you know you should know better like all. of that and. they are first of all they are very few. and far between i'm not saying that i.

don't say that to my housemates i'm like. how [ __ ] damn. i don't understand why he would do that. like he knows that's not the case. but i would i don't i don't i mean you. might disagree. i don't think i i don't think i really. like i'm not looking at her. she also is paid to say no um. but i genuinely i genuinely i'm not a. she's the same way as a text.

i think i'm the same in relationships. friendships like everything. i am a walk out of the rumor and come. back in half an hour and. at that point i'll leave the shout or. i'll you know but. i'm not instantly kind of in that moment. which is why i sometimes also find. social media. hard because i don't want to react in. the moment and social media warrants an. instant reaction. because that's the only way that you're. being true to yourself or like whatever. it might be. like i often will think something you. know when you're angry and you think. something you're so angry about it. and then half an hour later i won't be. or i'll think it's different or i'll.

think someone didn't mean that or. whatever it might be. and so i try and even though social. media doesn't necessarily. allow for that amount of kind of like. discussion i do try and like. you know just yeah and that's kind of in. general. how i deal with things i go and spend. some time by myself and if anyone talks. to me. if you are to become the person you want. to become. what does that person look like in terms. of values the way they conduct. themselves react to things. um i think for me it's a lot of.

repositioning i as i said like i think. that i grew up. on social media at a time where i was. particularly low and therefore like a. lot of that was made up with validation. therefore like i think one of my main. aims. and one of my main like work what i've. been working towards for the past you. know. year or so has been that kind of. self-validation and that self-worth. and i think that that through and. through you know unfaltering. self-worth is.

i don't know whether it's even like a. reality like i think. people have faltering views of. themselves just like they do every other. person you can love someone absolutely. unconditionally. you can think in one moment like yeah. like you know why did they do that or. like i think that's a terrible trait. about them or whatever and i think. the important thing is being able to. bounce back from that into the original. position or being able to consider that. and still. have that worth or love or whatever and. i think so i think to become the person. who. i want to be i think it's you know i'm.

quite. you know happy with where i am now and i. think there are. like i know what i need to improve in. terms of like and i think a lot of it. comes down to my own. confidence and my own um like assurance. in. myself in order not to project that. elsewhere. so yeah like in general i think that's. probably one of my main main things. being completely honest i don't think it. involves. like money or like growth in any other. way i think the first thing that i know. that i need to improve on is that.

how how does one go about improving. their self-validation. i would love to know. but i think in general it's just like an. it's an understanding of yourself it's. an understanding that you're going to. [ __ ] up it's an understanding that. you're going to. think one thing and do another and i. think that. part of that as i say put that was part. of the reason you know i did move away. from social media because it was like i. can't have all these. people telling me one thing even if it's. a great thing because it doesn't allow. you to be like. completely in touch with yourself and.

know those differences. yeah exactly like even if it's the. people blowing smoke up your ass like. you then can't get that from yourself. because you're constantly like clouded. by that if it's people hating it's the. same thing. so i think that like i'm don't i don't. necessarily know i think all it can be. is being in touch with yourself and. understanding that you are. going to do things wrong i think i'm. very harsh on myself in the way. that i don't like doing things wrong and. i work very hard not to do things wrong. and so when i do it you know it hits me.

hard. and i think that part of that is. learning that does it hit you hard. yeah i think i think in general it. really does and i think that. i yeah yeah i think that that's kind of. one of the things that. you have to then develop that kind of. self-love and. all of that to be able to say um okay. great well like you know but i'm i'm as. i've said got this like. miss trunchbull living in my head who. just. wants one thing and one thing only and. it constantly changes and it's.

constantly more and. i think that's an important thing to. address two things the first one is. instagram you kept instagram. yes why i like. instagram in general i think that you. know i think one of the. one of the sad things that i found about. kind of. pivoting was that i loved. what i got from things like youtube in. terms of like the community as i say. that like. i loved being able to share that and i. was at this really weird.

point where i loved sharing my life but. i also didn't like sharing my life. because i like you know. and it was you know there were bad. things and good things about everything. but it was like the highs were really. high and the lows were really low. and so it's kind of like toxic in that. way and i think that instagram. instagram and twitter probably both can. be used in a way. where you i try and use it more as like. a. you know i post way more than like a. regular non. instagram non public eye whatever person. would post.

but i don't use it as a platform for. anything other than just. social media like if that if that makes. any sense at all. it's kind of you know it's pretty much. my only platform. and i just you know i post as on when i. want i don't need to post. i don't need to come across a certain. way because i don't need to. do stories at all one day you know like. whereas yeah. and probably the most widely there was a. report out that said instagram is. probably the worst platform for mental. health well. you can see why visuals filtered visuals.

unrealistic compounds i think i think i. think i also thought that no matter what. i didn't like or what i wanted to pivot. to. i also owed it to myself to be able to. celebrate my success in some ways and i. think that you know. that however many messages i get from. people saying. you know i know you've moved off other. platforms but please don't agree delete. instagram because you know. xyz like whatever it might be like. everyone has their people who really. don't necessarily really need them but. really really benefit from them. and i think that i also.

saw a lack of representation for women. in the business space who also shout. about it and i think there's a reason. for it like i wouldn't encourage a woman. to shout about it not from a. moral perspective but because you will. be ripped to shreds and because people. will have preconceptions that are. different from. successful men and you know whether. that's showing material things or like. whatever it might be it's perceived as. differently. and therefore like but i did think in. that way that not only do i want to be. able to do that. i also think that you know i think i'd.

like to do it also to make sure. you know to be able to be in that. landscape and i think that i kind of. owed it to myself also to be able to. celebrate that even if i was moving away. from that being my job i didn't post in. any way the same as i posted when that. was. my job um i post very differently but. you know it's i love it you've got any. sort of big regrets in your life. that you've uh that might help others. avoid making those same mistakes. um i think i mean i mean i think.

my it's it's the kind of same timing. thing again it's once again it's just. anything to do with allowing other. people's perception. allowing focus on other people's. perception of you over your focus on. your perception of yourself um but i. don't think i'm not really like a. as i've said much to my detriment and to. my success. i've you know i don't necessarily. concentrate on. don't maybe it's that toxic positivity. thing you said or whatever i don't. necessarily concentrate on. those downfalls like i feel like.

everything that's gone wrong. like we're not not getting into oxford. the first time or whatever that led to. me having a really great corporate job. and i was able to make some money and i. was. able to you know like work in econ for a. bit you know like all of those things. and i think that i'm very like. my pick yourself back up attitude. is bad in some ways but the way it's. good is also allowing. you to not have many regrets because you. always make something out of a bad thing. and therefore it's really hard to look. back and say that was [ __ ] because.

fine even if it didn't lead to what you. thought it would like i had for example. i had my absolute dream job lined up for. april and it got cancelled because of. the pandemic and you know i. like was very lucky to be in an industry. that was largely unaffected in fact in. some ways did really well. and i was so devastated about that. um and like maybe it will happen maybe. it won't but like you know i think that. that was something that couldn't be a. regret couldn't be whatever.

but i also know that at this point i've. moved so much away from. social media in that time that that. probably would have put me on a. like blasted me in a way that actually. maybe i wouldn't have been able to deal. with. and i think that you know kind of the. world works in like mysterious ways and. like maybe that wasn't right and maybe i. wouldn't say yes if i got that. opportunity again. and i think that that actually just. yeah i i guess maybe it is a toxic. positivity maybe it is like maybe i. should be you know i don't allow myself. to be sad about those things when i. maybe should be or i should address them.

but i think part of that. means that when i i'm asked about my. regrets i have. kind of very little that's good i mean. regrets that come with their. their upsides right and the value in the. lessons that they teach you so it's hard. and i don't think it's bad to have. regrets i think acknowledging your. regrets is. really important to be able to move. forward um maybe i'd block them out. i bet you can't wait for people to to. get your book right yes it's a real. labor of love right yeah i mean i'm. terrified at the same time. um and i'm sure there will be some. people i think i think well i think you.

it's the same as a business if you pull. that much love and your soul into. something if people hate it they. essentially hate you. like that's never nice it doesn't matter. whether you're a bad nurse or whatever. like it's not something you want. and i think that i think also as i say. there's a lot that i've put in there. that i probably wouldn't have talked. about online because. it's there's delayed feedback there's. you know i don't need to hear what. someone said. thinks about that in that moment and so. i you know. i'm excited i'm terrified um. but you know and it's also very. different like it's different from what.

i've been doing. it's not entirely about business it's. not entirely about you know xyz. it's it's different like it's. essentially another pivot in one way. and i think that you know i'm excited. and equally like you know i think about. it. some like some for some reason last. night was one of the nights that i had. kind of like constantly waking up i was. like what if people don't like this bit. and like what are people you know. and i think that that's not something. you control control and like. i think the only way to guarantee not.

having that would be to write a blank. book which i don't have much interest in. and is that those worries because i'm. because i'll be honest i don't have. those worries yeah. and i've spoken to other authors that. you know when i talked about them being. excited about the book coming out they. also didn't express those worries. so i'm wondering where those have come. maybe it's because i'm conditioned to. having a constant feedback loop. of you know whether on the businesses. whether on my socials whatever it might. be. um or maybe it's because i'm more. insecure about. those feedback things like maybe it is.

but i think that. it's also i care a lot. so you know i care a lot about it i care. a lot about my. well-being i care a lot about you know i. and i feel like some of that you know is. acknowledged that it's not necessarily. even. the right thing like i want to be able. to write my truth and to write what i. genuinely believe in. and for someone to say i don't believe. in that and it's kind of cool. back to the battle we were just talking. about there so yeah you said you wanted. to be less sort of. connected to people's feedback well i. write in the book i write.

you know at the same time like there's. i don't i don't obviously it's. completely irrational to. want to be liked by everyone and i don't. want to be liked by everyone but i think. in the same way everyone who is in the. public eye and sees something [ __ ] or. whatever it might be. you know as in it's just you know it's a. natural reaction like. you know yeah so i think but i'm very. very excited and i think that. the reaction so far to you know the. concept to the excerpts to everything. has been.

amazing and so i think that i should. probably just be more excited about it. and. um yeah you're a you're a. very um inspired entrepreneur. i noticed this when i was going through. your sort of your history over the last. four years you've started several. businesses you've had. several ideas within those businesses. and you seem like a constant stream of. ideas right. i imagine that's also a problem yes my. early investors told me they said they. kept hitting me with this whip and. saying steve stop [ __ ] emailing us. with a new idea all the time.

how have you made how have you been able. to distinguish between what's an idea. worth pursuing. and what's that because you could you. know when you get a little bit of. resource and you have. teams of people you could at any time be. the ceo that's walking in every day and. saying we're gonna do we're gonna do. this a new thing. that can be unhelpful i'm still guilty. of it yeah no and i'm sure i am. um i'm sure i am how do you decide what. to what. yeah i think i i think i use our. audience a lot i think that one of the. real. benefits of having a you know i'm gen z.

so having a gen z led brand for. your gym yeah i'm the first year of gen. z. um and i think one of the benefits. is like everyone's constantly like how. do we market to gen z how do we do all. of this and i'm definitely not like. gen z like don't ask me to do a tick. tock dance but like i. um i think that in that way i feed off. our audience a lot like i know. i'm not the most experienced at branding. that doesn't mean i'm not the best at. branding for our brand. that means i'm not the most experienced. so how can i use that in experience how.

can i leverage off. people you know how can i can i can just. ask people sometimes like i can just say. like would you be interested in this and. i like used to be like no because they. can only see it the final thing. and then sometimes people have said like. yes yeah and then i've been like. actually no. but i think it's instinct i think some. of it's instinct i think the more you. know your brand the more you really like. know your brand. and i think that lots of the time you. know it's. an equal problem when other people have. ideas and you're like. no but i want you to have more ideas. like and i think that you know it's just.

a constant learning process and i'm sure. i've had. i have had ideas that have gone you know. that just haven't gone as well as they. should have and i think that that's. constant thing i think in. in fashion especially like you're going. to have. like a certain amount of things that. don't sell as well as they should like. whatever it might be. and that's just a constant reality so i. don't think it's necessarily about. always picking out the best ideas i. think it's about picking out. the right number of ideas usually fewer. and executing them well and as we look. forward to your future. i'm sure there's plenty more ideas to.

come is there anything in the pipeline. that one might be able to know about. well actually because because i've. started. two businesses the one question kind of. press. everything always asks is like what's. next what's the next business. and there just really isn't gonna be one. for. but i think currently i am so maxed out. i think because i have two businesses. here but i also have my personal brand. sure.

so you know the book is a business. you know and that's. a lot if you think of the amount of days. in the week yeah so you're thinking like. five days i'm really strict on weekends. so i hate to tell the hustle culture. crew but i take weekends and i'm. strict on them um and so five days a. week. split between technically three. businesses that's already a lot of time. blocking. to establish what you spend your time on. and where and bearing in mind that. about you know fifty percent of this or.

not 50. 40 of the stuff i do will also be. unexpected so. i think that as i've said the. kind of ethos i have about constantly. constantly pushing on and doing more. more more. is actually detrimental when it comes to. doing things well and so i think that. you know yeah i. i've had ideas and nearly started. multiple businesses and that this time. at one point i even wanted to do like a. mini essentially influencer vc of some. form and like.

but actually i. want to prove to myself and i think i. have and i think i can. continue to do so i want to prove that i. can do. these well and i can have patience and. it's not about more more more. because i think some of that comes from. the fact that you know when things. settle it's really easy to push. for more when it's just at a settling. state and i constantly. you know why can't i push for more. within those businesses like each yeah. exactly and growth and wider more. breadth and everything. and i think that that's part of my plan.

so it might not be new businesses but. huge projects sometimes within a. business sometimes take just as much as. a new business. and i think that yeah sure probably if. my businesses were taken away from me. tomorrow. i'd probably have an excellent you know. like another one the next day and that's. how i'm programmed and i'm. thankful for that because you know. that's definitely part of the reason why. i've. got to where i am but i also think that. it's been a big. lesson for me to learn that more is not. always more. yes that's the lesson that i also. learned and i then started becoming a.

bit of a preacher to my friends who. would brag about having five businesses. and me saying one good one is much more. that's the thing i would almost. people as i've said people would say. about the end of uni when i was doing. you know like all of these things and. i think i recognized. probably too late but at some point i. recognized that it wasn't about that. and therefore i kind of was almost. embarrassed when people were like she's. got. 72 businesses yeah because i'd be like. yeah you know. i'd rather have one that was doing.

really well i'm currently concentrating. on two doing really well. and a third one which is my personal. brand which is you just yeah yeah. and then you know and that one will be. the key to longevity. for the rest of my career but so will. these two if they're done right. because you don't need longevity you. know if that happens and so. i think i'm lucky to be in a position. where i have many different. potential paths and the most productive. thing i can do in that moment is decide. on the path and. stick to it and i think it's fickle and.

i think that i can be fickle. in like a hard work you know like. diligent way. because i just want to do more and. quicker and like all of that but. actually the toughest thing i can do is. just stand still and do it right. and where where does this end then for. your businesses in your view where do. you how because. when we're entrepreneurs we kind of. forecast you know five years time i'll. sell this or i'll do this or whatever. i'll step away. what's your thinking with your. businesses i think it depends i think. that like for example i often. i'll have a view i'll say like okay well. i'll maybe aim to sell this one in two.

years and then this one i'll keep. on like and i'll you know do that. forever. um and i think that then it changes then. like. the other one starts to get really. exciting and really profitable and. you're like well maybe i'll keep this. one for longer so i think that. like i've got used to the fact that. that's not you know. there's probably not i've probably got. used to the fact that actually there'll. be a point where rather than. saying okay in two years i'm going to do. this it'll be like. [ __ ] i'm done like i'm done and.

therefore and that's too late. but i know it will be like that because. i know i will push it to you know like. the end or whatever it might be. but i'm i'm open i'm very open to it i. think also. i'm very much at the beginning of this. like shreddy. four years old tyler not even two years. old yet. and i think that i'd be doing myself a. disservice to kind of be. it's exactly what i would do jump to the. next when can i sell it when can i get. all of this. but especially because when you have a. business you kind of programmed to.

assume that. by the time you've done this. you're officially like you're no longer. an entrepreneur. you know you like sold a business for x. or whatever and it is a success point. it's a huge. you know it's a huge accolade and i. think that. for me i it's just about constantly. keeping in touch with myself and what i. want. what i want for the businesses as well. because i'm sure there'll be a point. where i'm like i can't do that. yeah like you know this needs x amount. of funding or this actually needs to be. acquired or whatever it will be.

don't think it'll be soon but there. might be a point you know and there. probably will be a point that that. happens or. where you know we've grown hugely. recently i have a terrifying thought of. like what if it gets too corporate at. one stage. and then you know it's not a joy for me. anymore and at that point yeah. like i can like very much consider that. um. so i think it's very much like an open. consideration constantly for me and i. think that. the best thing i can do again is just. not yeah. exactly have you managed to achieve. balance in your life.

well this is the sort of whole point of. the book i guess. but um. um i think i think i'm doing well at the. moment i think i wasn't doing well this. time a year ago. i think that i um i'm probably doing. well you know because. for example like as i've talked about. like i'm not in a relationship so maybe. like that would throw it all off or. whatever it might be. i think at the moment i'm doing it well. and probably too much of a focus on work.

but. that's what balance looks like to me at. the moment it's not 50 50 it's not like. a tipping set of scales it's like. sure this is what's added up oh yeah i'm. definitely happy. i think i'm i think i'm particularly. happy at the moment because i feel like. i'm somehow simultaneously living my. early 20s life whilst also being. you know being in this amazing position. and that for me that was the main thing. i wanted because i just was you know. this more more more thing was like you. don't need to be acting like you're. 40. like you you know and so i've really.

tried to maintain that even though it's. strange for me to be in my position. and living with three of my friends in. my house or whatever it might be like. i feel like i'm having that and i feel. like that's. that was a real you know that was a big. thing for me and i'm. you know happy that it doesn't. necessarily have to be that i'm in. like some sick high rise apartment by. myself with like exposed or whatever. um and that for me is my happiness. thank you uh it's been wonderful. speaking to you i find you so inspiring.

and you know people have said to me as. i've like gone through my journey that. i'm like a wise head on shoulders. whatever but you like really really are. oh thank you well you are no but you. like really are like you're 20 23 i. remember when i was 23 i was still. largely uh an idiot and you you you seem. to have. figured out no i know but it's like the. level of. i'd say self-awareness right and i can. see as you're speaking. in the way that you answer questions. you're also really you're really trying. to appreciate nuance. that's something it took me a long time. to do right so i thought the world was.

the way i saw it if you don't work hard. then you are inferior. yeah right and then but i can see you're. being very considered in how you speak. and appreciating nuance and i think. that's the trait of someone that's. that's a bit had their life accelerated. in the public eye or through you know. pressure of running businesses but. just someone that has very wise um head. on their shoulders and you're inspiring. as hell. thank you and you're a lovely human. being so i want to thank you for coming. here today and giving me your. time and um when when can we buy your. book april. i know we can pre-order now 14th.

15th thank you lexi. yeah i know mine is march so yeah but. you can pre-order now. 20 something oh yeah well pre-order. pre-orders dom when is my book now. 25th of march we'll cut it so it looks. like we've got it right first time. i'll pull up you can pre-order both now. maybe. so many people will pre-order the same. ones that you know when amazon assigns. like a specific bundle. people who yeah yeah exactly they're. like you can get these two together for.

this. i think that's the aim from this do go. and check it out because i've. i know how much you put into it. personally and sometimes i sit down with. people. and i know they had some ghosts right i. create the whole thing but speaking to. you on and off camera i know how much. you've poured into it and when when. people do that. i think they create really remarkable. pieces of work and unique thoughts so. thanks again for coming on you're a. really really special person and i'm. honored to have you here thanks thank. you.

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