Gender Expert: Men Are Emotionally Dependent On Women, We're Treating Them Like Malfunctioning Women

it is pretty clear partnerless men. childless men they don't do so well in. fact they do terribly and in modern. society that's the problem Richard. Reeves is the founder of the American. Institute for boys and men an. organization dedicated to researching. and tackling the challenges faced by. boys and men in modern society we're in. the early stages of a cultural. revolution so that women are not. economically reliant on men which is. great but one consequence of that is. that it's put a big question mark next. to the role of men which used to be.

filled with a whole script of ways to be. a man ways to be a head of household Etc. because of that they're struggling. they're behind in education wages have. stagnated you're seeing a massive rise. of young men who are single and now the. suicide rate is four times higher and. Rising they looked at the words that men. used to describe themselves before. taking their own lives and the two most. commonly used words were useless and. worthless and the most fatal place to. end up in as a human being is to feel. unneeded.

you said the hardest thing you've ever. done as a man is coup's therapy why I. was talking about what I done at home. and how it's supported her career and my. wife said that you seem to think the. problem is that you're not feminist. enough the problem is that you're not. masculine enough what I came to realize. is that men feel like that in order for. women to become bigger we had to make. ourselves smaller that is not the answer. so what would you do at a social level. to fix things the most important move. would be to.

we've just hit 6 million subscribers on. the D Co um so me and my team would like. to do something we've never done before. as little thank you and we're calling it. The D subscriber raffle and here is how. it works every episode this month we're. going to pick three current subscribers. at random and we'll send one of you a. 1,000 voucher one of you tickets to come. and watch the D SE behind the scenes. live with our team and one of you will. have a 10-minute phone call with me to. discuss whatever you want to talk about. if you're a subscriber you're in the. raffle thank you from the botom of my.

heart for allowing me to do something. that me and my team love doing so much. it is the greatest honor of my lifetime. and I hope it I hope it continues uh off. into the Future Let's get to the. [Music]. episode Richard you wrote a book called. of boys and men why the modern male is. struggling and why it matters and what. to do about. it of all the things you could have. done why why did you do this partly.

because I was warned so strongly against. it by my colleagues by friends but. professionally just saying this is such. a difficult subject to write about. particularly right now in this sort of. moment we're in culturally and and the. reason I say I did it despite being. warned or because I was warned isn't. because I'm like a sucker for punishment. I'm actually like very thin skinned. interestingly my wife said that in some. ways I was in the worst of all worlds. because I I'm thin skinned pist so in.

other words a p someone who kind of goes. out of their way to kind of make. provocative points right and provocative. so I provoke responses but then I'm kind. of upset the responses right and and. actually this this work around boys and. men is not is not intended at all to be. provocative ironically I'm trying to. make it less provocative I'm trying to. make it more databased more mainstream. like more boring in a way um but it was. very interesting to me and it was very.

hard to get a publisher in the US for. the book and so it was interesting to me. that this whole debate was one that was. just seen as too risky to enter and I I. honestly thought well hang on if I as a. fairly boring guy with. charts and research and being warned. against this who is going to talk about. it and are we sure that it's better that. those other people are talking about it. and that we're not talking about it. we're basically benching ourselves from. the conversation because of our fear. about what's going to happen to us.

professionally or reputationally we're. basically benching ourselves and that. just leaves the ground open and if you. think there's a real issue around boys. and men real questions around boys and. men it's not like it's not going to be. talked about that's not the question the. question is who's talking about it and I. actually thought we need more people. like me talking about it I.E boring. research-based policy oriented you know. non-fiction type people Brookings type. people and not just some of the people. who are currently talking about online.

and that's not there are lots of great. people talking about this online don't. mistake me but but it's almost like it. wasn't a topic that you were supposed to. approach unless you were willing to risk. something and that just seems crazy to. me when you say you come from this from. a place of stats graphs figures Etc what. is your background where does that come. from I bounced around essentially. between Academia think tanks politics. journalism so when I was over here I was. in the UK until 201 12 and uh I'd served.

in the coalition government working as. director of strategy for Nick CLE before. that I'd run demos the think tank I'd. worked I'd written for the guardian and. the Observer I'd worked at IPP I'd. worked at The Institute of Psychiatry I. did a PhD in philosophy at Warick and so. I basically found myself in this space. where either I'm trying to make policy. or I'm writing about policy or I'm. trying to think about policy in that. sort of semi-academic space and so I'm a. kind of social Scientist by experience I.

guess rather than by training uh and. that led me to the Brookings institution. in DC where I was for 10 years working. on Race inequality class inequality and. Brookings is like a big blue chip you. know policy Think Tank place it's you. regularly ranked as the the most. important think tank in the world. whatever that means today I I don't know. H and so in a way that was a kind of. natural place for me to end up and so. yeah I I come at this and I'm very. nonpartisan so I try to be as fact-based. as as possible I'm not partisan but I am.

very very concerned about trying to do. what we can to reduce the obstacles that. people face to human flourishing I know. that sounds really like vague but that's. what's Driven all of my work and you run. the institute for boys and men yeah the. American Institute for boys and men it's. actually the first Think Tank like. research policy shop on this issue. certainly in the US and arguably. anywhere uh we've had lots of. Institutions quite rightly created to.

look at issues for women and girls and. we need those arguably we need more of. them in many parts of the world but we. haven't actually thought that it was. important to have any that specifically. look at the issues of boys and men. through a kind of research lens and a. policy lens and so in the end I felt. like that was necessary and then I was. persuaded that I I had to do it myself I. actually looked quite hard for other. ways to get someone else to do it. because it was a difficult move when was. the moment where you decided that this. was the object that you were going to.

tackle was there was there a a stat you. read a moment you had a a Eureka moment. of sorts or was it just a culmination of. things it was more of a culmination. there was just a series of Statistics. that I just kept running into and not. just stumbling over but sort of just. running into with my shin bruising my. shin and going wait really and then. checking those stats with people and and. most of them I had a sense of the. direction but I didn't know how big some. of the the changes had become so for.

example discovering that there's like a. bigger gender gap in higher education. now than there was in the 70s but it's. other way around so we kind of. completely flipped the gender gap in in. higher education or or learning that the. suicide rate is four times higher among. uh men uh and boys and and Rising but. you know I think I was already on this. track when Co hit but actually Co what. probably underlined my determination.

to keep doing it because in the US at. least the immediate impact of Co was. huge for boys and men the college en. rment uh rate dropped seven times more. for men in the US than than for women. and then I noticed that men were dying. in much bigger numbers from covid and no. one was really researching that so I. found myself doing research on covid. death rates which is not my field at all. because it wasn't being done elsewhere. and those sorts of moments Illustrated. to me that.

it wasn't anybody's job to wake up each. morning and think about how is this. thing in this case the pandemic how is. it affecting boys and men it was no. one's job to do that and so those stats. that I've just mentioned to you they. didn't get any. attention because no one was drawing. attention to them whereas the impact of. the covid-19 pandemic on girls and women. was getting a lot of attention because. lots of people were producing you good. reports on that what is the the sort of. the macro then on on the current state.

of boys and men if if I had never if I. just landed on this planet and I was an. alien and I said to you how are men. getting on comparatively versus how they. used to be getting. on what information would you supply to. me to make your case and what would you. say to me so assume we're going to talk. about Advanced economy so we're going to. talk about the UK the US Scandinavia Etc. I think a fair answer there would be to. say that there are many ways in which. boys and men are struggling in those. societies. they're behind in education for sure.

wages have stagnated especially if. they're working class the mental health. challenges of men are playing out. differently but in some ways more. tragically because of these very high. suicide rates so in the UK suicide is. the biggest killer of men under the age. of 45 so playing out differently for. women and girls but I think I'd probably. say we're in the relatively early stages. of a cultural revolution in advanced. economies and that Revolution is one. where the economic relation between men.

and women has been dramatically. transformed and so the old world my My. Father's World my father just turn turns. 80 today and um the world that he and my. mom have occupied was one where their. roles are just much more tightly defined. right it was a kind of it wasn't really. that much of a question about what their. roles were going to be and women had. just so little economic power that they. were essentially forced into. relationships marriages like with men. right and so there was this economic. dependency of women women on men and I.

would argue an emotional dependency of. men on women and of course a huge. Reliance on women to kind of raise the. kids but there was there was like a. script there was a story there was a way. the economic rise of women has achieved. what Gloria steinm set out to achieve. which is to make marriage a choice. rather than a necessity that argument. which was really about changing the. economic relation between men and women. so that women weren't economically. reliant on men that was the central I. think central argument of that wave of. the women's movement. and very largely achieved and I would.

argue that's probably the greatest. economic Liberation in human history is. still playing out we need to do more in. other parts of the world but one. consequence of that is to then put a big. question mark next to the role of. men right so I think underpinning a lot. of these issues that we see kind of. playing out for boys and men is really. just there's just a gap yeah there's a. space with a question mark in it now. whereas which used to be filled with. whole script of ways you know ways to be.

a man ways to be a dad ways to be a head. of household Etc and so we've torn up. those old scripts by and large in these. advanced economies which is great but I. would say that we've replaced the old. script that women had the one my mom had. right so the script my mom had was. you're going to be a wife and a mother. primarily she was also a nurse but. parttime and so skip forward one. generation to my sister my my wife wife. my female friends and it was you're.

going to be able to stand on your own. two. feet right so in the blink of an eye we. changed the story for women in a way. that I think is profoundly positive and. how did we change the story for men the. old story my father's story you're going. to have to do as well as you can because. you're going to have to look after a. family you know make some money provide. right that's going to be your role so we. took away that story because we don't. know if he's going to be the provider. anymore I've certainly not been the main. provider. certainly not all of the time in in my.

relationships and what did we replace it. with what's the new script for. masculinity what's the new set of roles. what's the new set of Dos that we've got. for men You could argue we've got quite. a lot of don'ts many of which we. need but not a very long list of Dos and. so I think that that sense of that. category being that question mark now. being open has just a left a lot of men. feeling a drift uncertain of their role. uncertain of their place uncertain of.

being needed wanted uh and I think. that's that's feeding into a lot of the. things that are easier to measure like. mental health education employment Etc. but underlying it I I I think it's this. coming to terms with this huge. Revolution that we've. seen I I want to make sure by the end of. this conversation we do our very best to. Haz it a guess at what that list of dos. are for men but also to kind of fill.

that question mark I get so many women. and men come up to me often talking. about their young. Sons um and encouraging me to have more. conversations like this because they. want a good script for their young sons. in a world where their young sons are. going online and being offered maybe a. not so good script yes by certain. influences and influencers online so. that's that's one of my objectives with. having these conversations and I I think. it's worth pausing there just to say.

that from looking at your work you're. not suggesting we go backwards to the. old way of things no that's part of the. challenge is. that there's in some ways an. understandable reaction to change that. is disorienting it's destabilizing it. maybe threatens a sense of status among. men and to reach back for the world as. it once was very recently right this is. not we don't have to go back Millennia. probably only have to go back one. generation or two generations to men had.

their roles women had their roles. everyone knew their place and you can. see the appeal of that when there's just. so much. uncertainty but emphatically not the. answer to go back and I think in this. debate what you very often feel as if. those who are perhaps on that more. conservative side of the argument they. want to kind of turn back the clock. especially on women and women's roles. but I would say on the other side of the. argument maybe more on the Progressive. side of the argument or liberal side of. the argument in American terms there's a.

bit of a sort of turning a blind eye to. the actual problems of boys and men yeah. and so I think for a lot of young men. and I you know having spoken to them and. had some responses to my work from them. they feel as if there are two fairly. unappetizing options on the table for. them from the right they get the message. of like you should be more like your. father or your grandfather be a real man. right provide protect Etc have a wife. that can stay at home you fill in the. Gap but then they from the left the. message they get is you should be more.

like your sister the problem with your. masculinity is your masculinity and we. should just basically you should be more. like a woman right um and actually it's. not surprising to me that most young men. who are strongly in favor of gender. equality right they've grown up with it. there's no evidence they're turning. against it so they want gender equality. but they also there's something about. the way they feel in the world that. means that they don't want to be treated. as something there's something wrong. with them because they're a man right. and I think for even especially in. school RS but maybe more broadly there's.

a danger that we. treat men like malfunctioning. women so your problem is you're not. feminine enough you're not caring enough. you're not nurturing enough you're not. emotionally vulnerable enough you don't. cry enough you don't spend enough time. with your kids you're and I'm not saying. those aren't all valid challenges but if. that's all we've got if in other words.

we're just defining positive masculinity. in a way that is completely synonymous. with. femininity I'm not surprised we're. driving we're seeing a lot of young men. in particular say well no I'm not. interested in that and the only other. thing else they can see on offer is this. more. reactionary alternative and so if we. give them that choice. between being feminine and being. reactionary it's not clear to me that. they're all going to choose the former.

it's interesting because the way that. the digital world the algorithms the. social media are designed is to kind of. push you towards camps so this like. space in the middle of nuance it's just. not going to get the likes the retweets. the engagement in fact it's the the. ideas on the outside the men should be. more feminine or men should be extremely. masculine that are going to get all of. the attention because of the way the. gorithms are designed so if the if the.

answer is some kind of nuanced position. in the middle I just can't see in a. world how that's ever going to form a. tribe and be rewarded by the algorithm. so you know this is this is part of the. the beauty I guess of having podcast. conversations because you can because. we're not really held hostage by an. algorithm here we can kind of you know. speak openly but most of the algorithms. don't work in such a way at the heart of. this issue though I think is a very. difficult question which is are men and. women different okay well let's let's.

come to that but can I go back to your. previous point because I think you're. you're underselling yourself in a. way I agree that the way the algorithm. Works drives the kind of short-term. attention towards those more tribal. simplistic but the mere fact of your. success and the success of others like. you to me is an incredibly positive sign. it suggests to me that actually there is. an appetite for more nuanced. conversation there is is an appetite for. recognizing that two things can be true.

at once and that there are tradeoffs. like a is mostly good like the rise of. women amazing some causing some issues. that we should deal with and I have to. tell you my own experience of this as a. you know we've established boring chart. driven policy wonk type person right I. did this video for big think the YouTube. platform and it's had more comments than. I've sold copies of of the book oh wow. different audience of course my wife. calls me I'm traveling somewhere and she.

says have you read the comments on your. video and I said of course not like I'm. old school journalist never read the. comments should no we got to we started. reading them together by the end of that. taxi Journey wherever I was we're both. in tears because what the what we found. was young men including some teenage. boys saying thank you for recognizing. that the problems that boys and young. men are facing are real but not saying. and therefore become a reactionary.

misogynist actually saying guys this is. a difficult time there is some. transitions we've got to think about you. know come to your question about are. they different that we are different in. some ways that we have to talk about but. that in no way means we should be trying. to turn back the progress of women the. solution to your problem as a young man. is not to make your sister less powerful. or independent and there's a huge. appetite for that it's just hard to. articulate it doesn't drive the. algorithm but I I I honestly the.

conversations you've had around this. that other people are having around this. giv me a lot of hope that actually most. young men out there want that real. conversation but it does I agree it has. to start with a recognition of the fact. that there there are differences on. average between men and women and I. can't remember who said this it might. have been this Swedish Public Health. Economist called Hans rosling who I. absolutely love he's passed away now but. it might have been him it's the sort of.

thing he would have said and I'm. paraphrasing it with something like the. world would be much better if everyone. could understand the idea of an. overlapping. distribution everyone we're all train if. you say men are taller than women most. people know what that means. right on average like no if you say men. are taller than women no one in their. right mind thinks it means every man is. taller than every woman right yeah no no. one thinks that they know that that. means mostly so most of the men over.

most of the people over six foot a male. you know the average man is taller than. two-thirds of women or you know whatever. it is right so two and that's what most. sex differences are like they're not. completely separate or completely the. same they just they have overlapping. distributions and so on average men. might be a little bit less likely to cry. that's true but it doesn't mean that. there aren't some very weepy men some of. whom I think you've had on this. podcast right and who knows where this. conversation's going right or or some.

women who are less likely to and we. could we could take in aggression we. could take in risk-taking we could take. in sex drive we could take in. competitiveness and and uh we could take. in more interest in things rather than. people and put all of those on this sort. of distribution and just say look we can. accept there are differences on average. ask if they really matter and in what. way and then never use that as a way to. discriminate against an individual so. were men and women different on average. yeah and and in what ways are they. different that are pertinent to this.

conversation you know when we talk. about it's really. about societal roles and gender roles. that I'm I'm getting to here because. when we talk about the changes that have. happened and also when we get to the. heart of what a man's script should be. yeah there must be clues in how we are. different if you know what I mean yeah. the way I think about this is that if. there are these differences on. average in say say risk taking yeah cuz.

men are the ones that are I saw the. stats like 90% of men are um 90% of. people that have like gambling. addictions for example are men yeah so. it definitely opens up all kinds so that. there's let's take on average men boys. and men somewhat more likely to take. risks right so let's take that as an. example like does it. matter um well it does matter in some. negative ways because like you just. identified look there's an addiction. issue there's also like teenage boys.

like twice as likely to die as teenage. girls from from from risk-taking. activity by and large from car crashes. or accidents you know much more like to. drown all these kinds of things right. because they're just taking more risks. right and. so that aspect of kind of risk taking. and especially if the risk involves. somebody else's life or well-being. obviously that's a problem but if the. risk-taking means that say they're on. average a little bit more likely to kind. of take a risk in.

business right or they're more likely to. sign up to be a smoke jumper in the US. do you know what a smoke jumper is no. idea you're going to love this what is. it a smoke jumper is someone you know. have these wildfires out in kind of west. of the US yeah right in California and. places like that and very remote places. sometimes the only way to fight the fire. is to parachute people into the middle. of the fire or just close to the fire in. the middle of nowhere out of a plane so. you basically these are people who for a. living parachute out of perfectly.

serviceable airplanes into a raging. Inferno and stay there for as many days. as necessary to try and fight the fire. incredibly. dangerous uh and it's almost all men. okay it's hard for me to imagine a world. where it wouldn't be mostly men. selecting into that occupation because. it's very high risk right and you could. think of others is that okay probably. right you don't want to exclude anybody. but you're also not going to freak out. that that one's not kind of 5050 and. you're also going to say well that's. that's good mhm and on the risk take.

actually you I think you'll be. interested in I like to get your. reaction to this because I was very. interested to discover that if you this. is based on on one study to be clear but. I liked the study that companies that. are led by. women as in CEO and CFO yeah both women. are a bit less likely to go bankrupt. yeah than ones run by men I know you. were going to say before you said the. stats but a little bit less profitable. so yeah you know what you were going to. say before you said the stats because my.

experience has been that exactly kind of. what you described in the sense that the. the CEO of my company now is a woman and. the co of my group of companies is a. woman um and in my. experience men have a higher risk. appetite as it relates. to company finances typically um a. little bit more yeah prone to risk and. so you know for me the Bal the real real.

important thing has been combining that. set of perspectives so we get the. balance exactly so people could I think. you've drawn the right conclusion from. your own experience which. is it's like you some people look at. that data right I I'll be unfair to. about they'd say well of course look. look at these profitable companies led. by men these entrepreneurial risk-taking. men that's why men have to be running. all the companies right and these women. they're just they're just too you know. safetyism they you know they're they're. just too scaredy cat right for.

capitalism right so let's have them in. and the other view would be like hey. look at all these women Le companies. that don't go under as often don't go. bankrupt sure they're a bit less. profitable but you know they're less. risky so we should have women running. companies or your conclusion which is. given that there's probably likely. benefits to both sides of that and again. recognizing it's not all women and all. men like maybe we should have diverse. leadership teams that seems to me to be. the right conclusion from that but the. conclusion is itself the argument for. gender. diversity are based on the Assumption.

there must be some differences yeah if. there weren't differences why on Earth. would we care yeah about gender. diversity right if we don't think that. women and men bringing something. different to the party not just because. their life experience but like something. else a bit different but risk- taking. competition Etc if we didn't think that. mattered then we wouldn't care how many. board members were women but we do care. about that quite rightly because we. presume that actually there are some. differences between men and women and so. sometimes that the idea that there are. differences between men and women is.

seen as a conservative idea but weirdly. it underpins a lot of the progressive. movements for gender diversity it's so. true it's so very true and um this is. why it is difficult to talk about the. differences between men and women at a. physiological level without it appearing. to be like inherently sexist because. it's not to say that either is better or. worse it's just to say that there's. differences and I think it goes back to. what I was saying to understand the. script for male to fill in that question. mark there must be some Clues hidden in.

our biology there must be. because I I think there is because I'm. trying to you know it's interesting as a. I'm I'm 31 years old now and my my. girlfriend is 31 years old and in the. the way that the world has changed I'm. still trying to figure out if like me. holding the door open for her is me. being old school and old fashioned and a. bit misogynist or if that's be that. because that's what I want to do and she. likes it does she she loves it that's.

the big question of course you wouldn't. still be together I want to do that and. she loves it and she she will have. moments where she turns to me and tells. me she'll thank me for doing things like. that and she'll thank me for the way. that I am and she'll acknowledge that my. brain and her brain have two completely. different perspectives on the world and. it's it's the differences that make us. work you know because I'm I come to. everything super logical how can I fix. it baby it's like I show up with like a. spanner to every problem in our.

relationship and she has this much more. holistic she almost has like this sixth. emot emotional sense and together we. like navigate issues really well um but. we can't it does but it does require to. respect those differences and not see. see the old problem was one was seen as. better than the other yeah right so that. kind of lets know with all the caveats. about averages an overlapping. distribution so let's agree now that we. by this point in the conversation.

anybody listening to this gets that when. we say these things we're not saying all. men or all women right yeah if there are. differences the problem in the past was. let's say men were a bit more. risk-taking a bit more competitive a bit. more inclined to kind of rational uh. approaches to problems that that was. better yeah that's the definition in my. mind a useful definition of a patriarchy. a patriarchy is one where more typically. masculine virtues or attributes are seen. as better right and you could argue that. a matriarchy wor we to have one would be. the other way around and an equal. Society isn't one of.

androgyny it's one where they're treated. as of equal value so we don't say one is. better than the other we say they're. different and try and bring them into. kind of collaborative and constructive. and rather beautiful equality but I do. think a lot of people making the mistake. of thinking that equality requires. androgyny I find your door opening one. really interesting so I was I was raised. to when you're walking along a a street. to always with a woman always to put. yourself roadside yes you do that always.

yeah why did you do that um I don't know. now you've said it but I remember when I. was crossing the road. yesterday um my first instinct was to. reach back and grab her hand and ba uh. and basic because there was like a big. bus coming and then there was this black. cab coming and my instinct was to solve. that problem which was like to put. myself in the front of the taxi maybe I. I think in head because I thought this. was the only conscious element to it my.

body's bigger so the taxi will see me my. girlfriend's about a foot smaller than. me and she's really really small so I. thought maybe the taxi would see me and. also there's a protective element it's. two things it's if I put myself in front. of the taxi that's coming it will see me. better but also I kind of would rather. take the hit yeah but that wasn't you. didn't you didn't think all that no I. didn't it's a it's a reaction I have. right that's all coded in you yeah and. you and you and you see it actually even. in tragic circumstances in the US when.

you see these kind of mass shooting. incidents when they do the kind of when. they reconstruct Afters what we very. often see is that quite often men have. been killed when they're just. automatically putting their body between. the shooter and their girlfriend or. somebody usually a woman right and uh. and there's also this great there's a. great uh photograph of a baseball. heading towards this a kid right it's. been whacked really hard and it's. heading towards this kid and and there. and you see these two guys doing this. like in the shop they're like diving in. front of it um whereas the moms are kind.

of like doing this like the dads are. like they're protecting the kids yeah. and whoever's going to get hit by it. right and and again they weren't they. didn't think through oh my body's big I. it's just a reaction and the and this. the road one is very interesting and. again most the women that I've been with. I don't say anything I just I just do it. I just go roadside and that's because. the road could be that could get. splashed it's dirty so it could be like. a sh shivalry thing it's about but also. think more that there's more danger. there like if someone comes off the road. or something like so to the extent that.

just at some psychological level danger. more danger that side right you want to. put yourself between that and the woman. that you're with and it's happening at a. quite a natural level now is there any. danger there does it make any kind of. sense probably not but is it still. symbolically quite a good thing and my. answer would be yes. and I I don't I know not everyone's. going to agree with this but I I've come. to believe that some of those symbolic.

acts which are quite gendered are still. valuable even in a world where we want. absolute substantive gender equality and. so the test would be you hold the door. for a woman who's your. boss and that's okay you're okay with. the fact that having gone through the. door she goes to the CEO Suite right and. she's okay with the fact that even. though she's the CEO and your boss you. held the door for her and so I sometimes. fear that in our desire to sort of. squeeze out all of these symbolic.

differences we lose a little bit of. those symbols of difference which even. in a world of complete gender equality. which we're hopefully getting closer to. I don't know if we want to eradicate. them and I increasingly I find a lot of. young women not NE not wanting to. eradicate them they just they want us to. hold many of them want us to hold the. door but then by God help them rise up. the corporate ladder if that's necessary. and have no problem at all with them. being our boss them them being boss to. us that's what they ask of us I think. that's a reasonable thing for them to.

ask we could do that. right what's the rebuttal to that is it. that holding the door is a symbol of. like the patriarchy and it's a a symbol. of Oppression and that I I am you need. me she's too weak to open the door okay. but actually I've noticed there got a. lot of feminists now they're like I've. seen this a bit on on social media. they're like for the love of God guys. feminism doesn't mean you shouldn't. offer to help me get my overhead down on. the plane you are taller you are.

stronger get my bag down right. and and like I do think and you've seen. a bit of reluctance around that merely. because I think men are almost entirely. wrongly afraid if they offer right that. the woman will turn to them and say why. because I'm weaker than you right that's. by the way that's never going to happen. almost never going to happen um but she. might say no I'm good thanks I'm fine. right but spe if it's obviously a. shorter woman or a kind of you older. woman or even a man right but but more. and so I think that's a kind of danger.

is that some of this has kind of. descended into this kind of these. symbols are bad uh meanwhile we got so. much more work to do to get more women. on boards and you know increase female. safety that it sort of feels like too. much politics has become locked in these. symbolic things you said that you think. one of the biggest issues facing men. today is the issue of. suicide especially as youve you. published this book but in in your own. personal life have you been exposed to. those stories of the the impact of. suicide directly yeah yeah people rarely.

talk about. it in an open Forum but they will very. often afterwards talk about it and I had. this moment recently someone I'm. actually working with and I've been. working with for some time I did a I did. a little piece on Morning Joe which is a. daytime thing in the US and I talked. about this crisis of kind of male. suicide and she told me afterwards that. they put up a just a stat the four times. higher among men just a a graphic and. she said she burst into.

tears and she said I'm so grateful. you're doing this work I lost my son to. suicide when he was 16 and started. telling me kind of why and I I had. worked with this woman for years on this. issue and she'd never raised it with me. before I had no idea and I Now. understand why particularly given her. situation she's been so supportive of my. work it wasn't just an intellectual. thing this is very rarely just an. intellectual thing it's usually visceral.

as well there's usually something going. on there and I've had countless stories. like that people sharing their stories. and it's heartbreaking and and you've. had you know people on this show who. talk quite a lot about this Jordan. Peterson was asked in a in an event once. by this guy who said I'm thinking I I. delayed my Suicide to come and hear you. talk why should I not take my own life. no I haven't had anything like that but. it's there this crisis is there in our. communities playing out is there a I'm.

just thinking about that woman who's. been working with you supporting your. work but hadn't said. anything and I'm wondering why people. don't say something about about it when. it happens in their family with with. other deaths with with a cancer death. you'll see a Facebook post you'll see a. a whatever you'll see you know but it. seems I'm wondering here if there's a. different level. of I don't know public sharing as it. relates to suicide because it's a. different type of death isn't it it's.

one that creates a lot of guilt and. feelings guil and shame and like so. you're in her situation and I have to. tell you having raised boys one of whom. in particular really struggled with his. mental health through teen years there. are days where you just hope as a parent. that they're still around and you. think what it was and actually 16 and. we've seen a huge rise in in young young. men's suicides in the US especially and.

just think if you're a. parent and you lose a child to Suicide. the idea that you can. cannot Free Yourself of the burden of. what could I have done what did I miss. was it me right being a parent is. already a lifelong trip in rethinking. your decisions right and you add that to. the mix. I I I can't imagine it I mean my my. parents lost a daughter very young to a.

heart defect and they have an amazing. marriage and they've been amazing. parents but I do think that the loss to. this illness this terrible tragedy thing. it's just different cyc not it's hugely. grief but you but it doesn't turn them. like it turns the mirror on you it's. like was this you was this your fault. are you the reason your son is. dead just think about that for a moment. and what that kind of does to people um. um and so because of that people don't.

talk about it so you'll get died. unexpectedly yeah we're not willing to. talk about it in the same way as we are. others because we think it might reflect. on us in some way perhaps or on the. memory of that person or them yeah I. mean it's still a crime technically oh. is. it now people say it's a really. interesting thing I've really learned. not to say commit suicide yeah died by. Suicide died by Suicide I just wanted to. I've got some crazy Unthinkable stats.

here that I wanted to just add on top of. what you were saying which come from The. Institute of boys and men report that. really was staggering to me is that um a. man dies by Suicide approximately every. 13 minutes in the US yes in the United. States alone so that's not including. other countries and the UK the US okay. if men's suicide rates had matched those. of women's approximately 545,000 fewer. men would have died since. 1999 and that's again just in the US. just us half a million men.

yeah suicide rates amongst younger men. have grown the fastest the growth of. male suicides has occurred almost. entirely since the beginning of 2010s. mhm and interestingly as well rural. countries in the USA have higher rates. of suicide than those in urban Metro so. it highlights again that suicidality is. geographically distributed in in certain. ways. why what's going on here what's going on.

with this full picture why why why is. this the state of suicide amongst. men in some ways the decision to end. your own life obviously it's complex and. it varies but in some ways it's like the. ultimate signal that you don't feel as. if the world is better off with you than. without. you like so many people who take their. own lives lose their lives to Suicide. will say something like like you'll be. better off without me I've been a burden.

to you I know I've been difficult they. convinced themselves that they're not. wanted they not needed and some that. goes back to like Arthur Miller's play. Death of a Salesman Willie. lman takes his own life because he. thinks that the life insurance his. family will get will be will be a better. bread winner than he can be because he's. so badly failed in his primary. responsibility as a as a bread winner so. it's not a new idea but there's a really. nice piece a work by Fiona Shand she's. an Australian researcher and the the.

work was done primarily in Australia. where they looked at the words that men. who did take their own lives used to. describe themselves before doing so or. in some cases attempting to but usually. when men attempt suicide they do lose. their lives and the two most commonly. used words by those men who took their. own lives were about themselves were. useless and. worthless now of course this is a sample. of people who went on to take their own. lives but it's. nonetheless I think very powerful.

statement that to get to that stage you. you don't think you have. worth you don't think you have. use you don't think you're. needed and I believe that the most fatal. place to end up in as a human being is. to feel. unneeded I think to be. needed is arguably the most important. and constant human requirement and so if.

you end up feeling like I'm not need I. me my family don't need. me my employer doesn't need me my. community doesn't need me I am Surplus. to requirements if anything I'm a drag. on my parents or my. community I'm not adding value however. you define value to the people around me. I'm taking away from. it that's I that's the psychologic iCal. trajectory that seems to put a lot of. men towards this path and well short of.

suicide I think many of the other mental. health problems we see among men. addiction checking out in one way or. another coming out of the labor market. Etc they're not the most extreme form of. course of of checking out by literally. taking your own life but they are a. different form of that they are a. different way of kind of benching. yourself taking yourself out of the. equation because of a sense of like well. who needs me anyway right and so I just. think in a way that the suicide. statistics are in some ways the kind of. tip of the iceberg of the sense that.

many men have a feeling. unneeded unwanted is there an. evolutionary basis for why men or humans. I guess need to be needed amongst their. Community do you think have you thought. about that at all yeah well when we. started operating in tribes of course. like we we realized we were going to. sink or swim together right or hunt hunt. or die together maybe is a better way to. put it and so what that meant was being. needed by your. community or and or your family was kind.

of central to The Human Experience so. the kind of invention of th those bonds. and the difference is that for women. particularly once they become mothers or. if they're intending to become mothers. the question of like whether I'll be. needed is never asked in quite the same. way because you you literally needed to. grow children and give birth to them and. feed them right and so that kind of very. rooted sense of being needed for the for. the species I think it's just it's just.

more obvious with women but why do we. need men why do we need dads and that's. a much more kind of recent phenomenon in. the sense of being dads and the answer. is because actually there's this amazing. work by an Anna Machin she's a an. anthropologist at the University of. Oxford about fatherhood and she she's so. I'm just paraphrasing her now but she. has this wonderful description of How We. Invented. fatherhood because we went bipedal do.

you know all this and the baby's head. thing it's amazing so we we had this bit. of a crisis X hundreds of thousands of. years ago I'm terrible at remembering. whether it's millions or hundreds of. thousands so timeo Google it right back. back in the ancestral times is what. people say right right so what happened. was we had this massive growth SP in our. brains our heads right so we got massive. heads but we also went bipedal and if. you're bipedal your hip hi can't be that. big and so we women couldn't get the.

heads of the babies out of their smaller. hips right so we're actually facing a. bit of a crisis so the way we solved. that crisis was by giving birth to. babies way earlier than we. should way way ear in fact if we were. like other mammals uh pregnancies would. last about two. years so I don't know how women watching. will feel about that can't speak to that. but 2 years would be about the average. right we don't we obviously do it N9. months so they're incredibly vulnerable. and mom has to literally keep feeding. them right and the calorific.

requirements just the amount of food. that they need mom and baby was huge and. so dad go get food right this is only. going to work we're only going to. survive as humans if this stuff comes so. in a way that was the invention of. fatherhood and you see the brains of. fathers you know getting activated by. all this stuff so being needed by the. community family Etc to produce. something to provide something is I I I. think it's just deeply encoded it's it's.

encoded in our DNA it's like part of. like if we're not needed then we're dead. because we're going to be on our own. right so these these ties familial ties. tribal ties are are actually Central to. our identity and so the danger now is. that if people particularly Men start to. feel. like am I needed does the community need. me do my kids need me does the woman. I've had my children with. need me am I. needed if the answer to that is not.

clear I think that has all kinds of. Downstream consequences and we've just. done a really poor job of making sure. that even in this time of great. transition we still need you we need. every man every boy every everybody we. need you we don't yet know exactly what. we need you for but by God we need you. we cannot afford to lose you you are. precious and we need you you know you I. don't know what going to go on to be yet. but by God our community cannot afford.

to lose you and so that message of just. like how much we need you I just think. we've lost a little bit of that in. recent debates and too many men have. drawn the conclusion that maybe they. aren't. needed with tragic. consequences a few questions there just. because I want to make sure I'm clear. Fiona's work in Australia around these. letters that men had left before they. had died by. Suicide did she also look at the letters. that women had left no she only looked.

at men in okay fine that's my first. question and for me the the. key thing in in the suicide stats is. that it's. increasing it's increasing so if we're. saying that it's a case of men not. feeling needed then why is that sense. that men aren't needed increasing if if. we're saying there's some kind of link. between those two ideas yes. because the extent to which they're. needed is less Les clear now than it was. right so it was very clear before that.

you're needed because you're the bread. winner okay you're the provider right so. go back and I don't NE I think part of. the point here is that this idea of. being kind of this gets us into. discussions about masculinity but by. being generative like producing. providing it gets narrowed down to like. the breadwinner model of like postwar. Western societies like it's like a w. earner but that's not all it means it. used to mean going getting meat it used. to mean helping Farm together all.

there's all kinds of ways you can be a a. provider service I guess as well just. like yeah it's about being. more there's this great line from CS. Lewis the um a very good Theologian but. obviously much better known for his work. on The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. The Chronicles of nania but he this. lovely line and he was talking here. about what it meant to be a Christian. but I think it applies to what it means. to be a mature man as well he said you. shouldn't think less of yourself you.

should just think of yourself. less and there's something about service. and pro like just doing for others your. family your community Etc that I think. is quite intrinsic to these ideas of of. mature masculinity and if if men don't. feel as if they are necessary or. encouraged to have a kind of distinct. and important role in the family in the. community then I think that kind of. question mark over well am I needed.

anymore is is a real one and lots of. people like Margaret me Anthropologist. in the 70s and a lot of conservatives. were saying look if women do achieve a. significant degree of economic. independence she thought that was a. wonderful thing the conservatives didn't. right but they all agreed that we will. have to think really hard about. men how do we make sure that men still. feel connected and needed in our society. if we have very quickly changed the. central way in which they expressed that.

a few things came to mind so it's it's. interesting before I move forward on. this point um when you're talking about. this idea of humans needing to be needed. it made me reflect on some of the stats. that came out around how quickly someone. dies after they retire yeah and that. that kind of General narrative that if. you retire you don't have long left. which is kind of you know this idea of a. social tribe and feeling like you need. to be serving the tribe in some way I've. always wondered if there any truth to. that this idea that you. know retirement can speed up your.

mortality because you're yes so almost. like there's something in your body. either one of two things could be. happening number one you just sit around. more which means you know you're more. sedentary yeah exactly this is going to. kill kill you anyway but um number two. is that there's almost I don't know I've. pondered this idea that this is almost. device in our brains that makes us the. tribe and when when it knows knows that. we we might have switched from be. becoming useful to the tribe to becoming.

burdensome to the tribe in some way now. that we're consuming resources but. providing none this device in our brain. like turns us off or something yeah. that's we don't we are Surplus to. requirements and so the decent thing to. do is just you know die for the tribe. yeah for the tribe and that we the. theoretically from an evolutionary. standpoint we we we evolved as tribe so. it's not impossible that there's some. you know well I do think that we I mean. of course we didn't used to live. anything like as long this is a stat. that I came across today that this new.

book that's just come out which is in. the in. 1963 the most common age of death was. one and now it's 83 what whatever right. do you know it's like so the progress. we've made towards greater life. expectancy generally has been huge but. it has then asked these questions about. kind of being needed later on in life so. there's a couple of things I would say. one is that like having a job. is just a massively powerful way of.

feeling needed right just showing up. like we we we need you to start to open. up at 6 we need you to like and in fact. Arthur Brooks who used to run the. American Enterprise Institute uh he. tells this wonderful story he was. interviewing this guy uh who'd come out. of prison was in this new program. Rehabilitation Etc and he's chatting to. him and the guy gets a text while he's. chatting to him and he bursts into tears. like gets really tearful and Arthur. says is everything all right did you get.

like some bad you know what's happening. is this bad news and he said no no it's. the opposite and he showed the text to. Arthur and the text just said Fred can. you get over here as soon as possible I. really need. you and the guy said to Arthur I've. never heard anyone say that sentence to. me. before I've never had anyone say to me I. need you and in this case it was I need. you to come and I don't even know what. it was right fix this FL. deal with this customer I don't know but. I need you and it brought this guy to.

tears because he hadn't kind of felt. that sense of needed before and at its. best the. workplace signals to us on a daily basis. or like yeah you're needed right your. colleagues need you they need each other. that that that's huge and so if you then. don't have. that in the labor market maybe because. you've retired the question is are you. still needed and then I just think we. have to. reinvent the ways in which we can make.

use of the skills and wisdom of the. people who suddenly got time you so my. mom she volunteers as a reader in a. primary school because she has time. right and it's amazing she gets to know. the kids really well and she loves it. and so on you know my father he on the. board of a technical thing and he runs. Char they do stuff right they raise. money for all because they got time and. so they're just they're contributing to. the community in a new way and actually. as more and more women. work those Community roles that were. previously very often fulfilled by.

moms at home like School volunteering. for example right now they can be done. by perhaps by more by older people and. so part of this story here I think is. also making sure the older people don't. lose that sense too because although we. focus quite rightly on what's Happening. to young men the suicide rates among. older men are also very high uh. especially if they end up on their own. so kind of men on their own later in. life are at massive risk because if you. take my theory about being needed quite. seriously they're just looking around.

and saying will anyone even notice if. I'm gone maybe they'll be better off and. so even for those older men we have a. job of work to do to make them feel. really like yeah we need you your church. needs you your scout group needs you. your local charity needs you your. neighbors need you the kid across the. street who needs help with his. university applications needs you the. boy down the road who's like strugg bit. cuz you know his parents have split up. and just want someone to give him a cup. of tea every and talk him they need you.

we don't know the boy down the road. anymore or the family next door anymore. and I think so when you you described. that was that was you're describing like. an oldfashioned Way of the World in my. mind because even you even said the word. church I was like well you know where. there's been a rise in atheism and and a. fall in religiosity so yeah that's part. of the problem though and from this. point of view is that we used to have. more institutional structures through. which. our connection to the broader Community. could be you know captured and organized.

honestly right so you didn't have to. sort of sit there on your own somewhere. saying how can I contribute to the. community you just volunteered as an. usher or a Bible class or to do the soup. kitchen at your church life came sort of. inherent with responsibility like. because even with church I just grew up. in there in my family I wasn't religious. after the age of 18 but as early as I. knew I was in the church and I was in. Sunday School and I was in St Luke's. hospice on the on the weekends with my. mom and I didn't choose that it was just.

it came with life yeah and actually so. the the de. institutionalization of those Community. relationships as we've seen these. institutions weaken has created a real. problem because the needs are still. there but it's like we didn't have the. organizing framework right so whether. it's churches or Community groups or. whatever and and Ms like one of the. things that would happen like my mom was. at home kind of most of the time and. back in the Dark Ages when I was being. raised in the 70s and the 80s um there. were a lot of moms around right and so.

they organized a bunch of stuff and they. kind of took care of the community and. they volunteered for stuff and it's. amazing now that women are in the. workplace of course but that sense of. like there were soft institutions like. those networks but also just churches. Community groups Etc they basically. provided a way to kind of plug in my. time and energy to an institution that. then did stuff for other people it's. really hard to do that on your own right. it's really hard to recreate those. institutions online or just on your own. and so I actually think that that's had.

a bigger effect on men as well. because historically and even today. women are a little bit better at kind of. maintaining those community and social. networks than men are so absent those. institutional. roles you're going to be a scout leader. you're going to be an usher Church. you're going to volunteer for the school. PTA you're going to you know you're. going to we need men to do this this. this and this right you're going to do. that and you're right some of it wasn't. even question it was just what you. did of course we want more choice but I.

do worry about the loss of those. institutional Frameworks if we don't. find ways to replace them and you're. starting to see that now men's sheds. movements and men's groups and and so on. but it's really hard to find secular. online alternatives to those traditional. institutions you mentioned uh an elderly. man who's now alone you know maybe lost. his partner maybe um what did call it. widowed no widower what's the male W I. think widowed is both isn't it oh is it.

a widowed man um but as we think about. younger. men and the environment in which the. sort of dating love environment that. they're in what's changed there because. one of the ways that we can feel needed. is if at you know 18 years old we find a. partner and you know she makes me feel. needed my in my life my girlfriend is. one of the people that makes me feel. most needed and most important she's. constantly asking when I'm coming back. from Dragon's Den filming or when I'm. going to be here and she's you know she. makes me feel like I've I'm service to. her in the same way that she service to.

me so but but that landscape seems to. have changed as well the dating. environment the Romantic environment. yeah it's interesting again I just. reflecting on my own personal experience. too just through the lives of my sons. and know one of my sons has just spent. ages helping his girlfriend buy her. first car and he's really into cars and. all that stuff and and he's into Finance. with the the loans and he's just. basically done like basically done the. work for her around it cuz he's working. full-time and he's got a bit of time and. so that is a really good example he said.

to me the other day he said I said God. you put a load of time into's like test. driven like 20 cars and all of this. stuff loads of this for for your. girlfriend he's like well right now I. don't have that much of my own stuff to. do so it's really nice to be able to do. stuff for her and so you're right I. think those relationships they can be in. like traditional families but also of. course friends but particularly romantic. relationships they can do that for you. so it's not for nothing thing that we're. dating less dating. later um you're seeing a massive rise in.

the share of young men who are single by. comparison both to young women and in. the past and and so that's another. change which you could argue is good or. bad right is it good or bad that we're. dating later and having sex later and. taking longer to get married and so on. again I think you can argue for sure. there's lots of good stuff there but one. consequence of that is to leave a lot. more men going a lot. longer before those romantic.

relationships were also pulling on them. calling calling on them to say I need. you to do this I need you to drive me to. work can you pick me up from this can. you do to do this right and that used to. happen much much earlier uh than it's. happening now and so there's now. perfectly possibly 25 26 27 years of age. and your parents don't need you because. then you maybe you've left home they. don't need you maybe you don't have a. girlfriend so you don't have a. girlfriend that needs you maybe you're. not working or you're working in a place. you don't really feel like it matters if. you're there or not like so it's.

perfectly possible in a way that wasn't. possible until recently to get to your. mid late 20s as a man and honestly feel. like it's not quite clear who needs you. it's interesting because also when you. layer on top of that the dating app. environment um I've had a lot of people. come on the podcast that talk about I. mean I've had a couple of the founders. of the big dating apps but I've also had. have you had the Tinder founder on no. okay I've had people that have left. Tinder and started their own apps like. but one of the things that I've come to. learn is that the bottom sort of 50% of.

men are basically getting not much. action at all almost none yeah almost. none and then the like top 10% of men. are getting all the action because the. way that these dating apps are set up is. to really reward that sort of most. affluent most attractive top 10% of men. that are most desirable but I imagine if. you'd gone back a 100 years it was. really like who's in your village versus. you know yeah versus an algorithm. sorting millions of people yes but. that's it's so interesting that pattern.

that you describe of like the bottom 50%. of men basically not getting much action. if any and the top 10% like getting. almost all of it because an evolutionary. psychologist that I know looked at that. data and said that looks like human. history to. me so if we go back. further actually 95% of known human. societies were polygamous. right monogamy is very weird and very.

recent and here's one that always blows. my mind even though I've said it so many. times now is that we have twice as many. female. ancestors as male. ancestors we have twice as many women in. our ancestral past as me why is that how. does that make sense because and the. reason it's so hard for a modern brain. to get a head around that is because. you're thinking well you need a man and. a woman to have a kid right so you'd. have to have equal numbers yeah but.

you're thinking about monogamy across. human history men have only had about a. 50% chance of. reproducing so back in each generation. half the male lies just literally die. out like 50% of the men just don't have. kids so boom they're gone and almost all. women have reproduced right so if you. got almost all women reproducing 50% men. then mathematically you're going to end. up twice as many female ancestors. because you don't need that many men. to have babies and so historically. what's happened is the top status men.

with the gold and the rich whatever. they've had multiple wives or certainly. concubines or multiple partners there's. like famous examples like genis Khan is. the ancestor whoever but in Ireland. something like more than one in five. Irish people are descended from King. Whatever It Is Well I was told my. grandfather in Nigeria has I'm going to. say 10 wives okay I'm told that I have. 40 odd uncles and aunties in Nigeria not. intending to go back anytime soon just.

just in case there's a lot of. conversations you're not you're not. tempted by that model I'm not no no I am. actually going to Nigeria soon but uh. but it's it's a headache to think about. navigating that many uncles and aunties. but it's but isn't it interesting how. actually these by going online and sort. of taking away the sort of cultural norm. around kind of monogamy yeah in a way. what it's exposed is kind of this. ancient pattern which is women are much. than. men around partner selection right and. so women are trying to women are sort of.

ideally I'll go for him and women are. just going no no no no I didn't know. which way it is that's right which way. it's right yeah so yeah so so the women. are going no no no no oh he's incredibly. handsome and Incredibly rich and right. maybe whatever like maybe whereas the. men are like yeah sure yeah sure she. looks nice maybe not yeah so so you get. this incredible asymmetry between. between the two but in some ways it's. like um I'm making light of it but but. actually could you find a kind of more.

telling sign of the fact that so many. men are just kind of feeling like well. maybe a bit useless not very attractive. not very needed not very like just right. the old rules about how to kind of. navigate the Romantic space the old. rules about how to be a man the old. rules about how to succeed a lot of. those have just been turned upside down. creating this huge vacuum. uh which has being filled by all kinds. of bad stuff and and but also just this.

massive sense of disorientation it's. like a kaleidoscope you shake it right. but it's still moving we don't know what. the new patterns look like yet and so I. genuinely kind of feel like when I talk. to a lot of the young men and see them. like that is the sense they've got. they're just like whoa like the the. disorientation that they're feeling uh. as we kind of shifted the equilibriums. in some ways the online dating apps are. just magnifying that but there's a can. you IM that's not a great feeling is it. to kind and go on a dating app and not.

get any interest at. all I mean you wouldn't know because. you're not on dating app well I'm not on. dating up when you were I'm sure you got. plenty of attention well do you know. what's funny when I was on dating apps I. didn't get much attention really no I. didn't and I've got a very good-looking. best friend and he got all of the. attention so bear in mind I was 18. shoplifting food de feed myself I was. scrawny as how Okay um I was did you put. all that on the I put in my but I tried.

to put my best selfie on there and I. just couldn't get any like decent leads. and my best friend who is like blonde. and beautiful and he's got the perfect. hair and he looks like something out of. like a magazine I would sit with him and. he would just get the pick of the litter. so my whole strategy was I would just do. much better in person when I met people. but obviously it's much more difficult. to meet people if you look at the STS. around how people meet it's crazy it's. like a a vertical line upwards um when. you look at the the the line that's.

showing people meeting online just out. of nowhere and it went school's gone. down and church has gone down and. through a friend has gone down and it's. pretty much all online so if you're if. you're not I think aesthetically. beautiful in the typical sense of the. word yeah and you know have signals of. wealth and status you really are going. to struggle and I actually know came to. learn this a lot not just from my own. experience on dating app once upon a. time but also from doing this podcast. and I remember the first time we had on. a a founder of a dating app and put the.

episode out assuming everyone would love. it and just the anger in the comment. section from pretty much all men who. feel like dating apps have ruined their. lives or are just just an evil thing in. the world and it really caught me off. guard in fact reading those comments on. that particular episode was when I go oh. my God people hate dating apps there's. like this group of people that just. think it's like the the cause of all. pain um. this is really difficult stuff to talk. about I think because it's so it's so.

visceral it's Primal right we're talking. about sex we're talking about. procreation we're talking about our DNA. being passed onh and who with and so. it's not for nothing if if something's. happening in that in that market and. it's not for nothing we see a huge rise. in the share of childless men like. especially getting to 40 and and of. women but more even more so for men and. more men saying having children is. important to them more men starting to. say actually forming a family is kind of.

important to them and so there's a. there's a weird Paradox here which is. that you know the old idea of like. marriage and kids is that like women. have to kind of trap men into it right. you know as men we just want to go our. own way right we want Cowboys around in. the desert or the forest or something. but the ball and chain the woman she. traps you right and she domesticates you. and you kind of go along with it because. you to have kids but but in your heart. in your heart you're still out there on. the Frontier right and she's the one at. the half that is complete [ __ ] on.

every single level actually historically. back to where were before being. masculine meant being in the tribe it. meant generating more than you need for. yourself I love this idea of a surplus. that comes from this guy David Gilmore. that mature men generate more of. whatever it is than they need they're. Surplus generators so rather than being. Surplus to requirements which is what I. think a lot of men feel they actually. generate a surplus for others to use and. so the idea of like you heard this men. going their own way movement it's like a. male separatist thing online we're going.

to go our own way we don't need know. turning away from. women is the opposite of masculinity. right masculinity defined as like a A. Lone Ranger or a I'm My Own man is the. least masculine sentence I think you. could ever utter I'm just my own man I. do my own thing right if you're not a. man for others and in my view you're not. you're not a man and so it's quite. interesting to kind of think about how. the current world of like dating and. families and so on if it does leave many.

men feeling like they're not going to. have those connections and not going to. have a sense of being for others and not. just not providing just in the economic. sense but being needed then it does. leave a lot of them benched and they. either go their own way or they get mad. as hell so you see the rise of the. incell movement. Etc um and so again you're just seeing. these extreme the extreme examples are. the ones that get the headlines but. behind that behind the kind of men who. are acting out there's a lot more men. who are checking out they're just saying. I think I'm done with this and that's. very. dangerous marriage has also had a a.

knock on effect to this hasn't it. because this the sort of the role of. marriage in society has changed but also. the stats around marriage seem to be. changing what what information do you. have on that am I right in thinking that. marriage is in Decline a little bit bit. Yeah marriage has gone down this is one. area where it's very different in. different countries so I have to be. careful about this like in the US. there's a big class Gap in marriage like. college educated Americans are still. getting married non-oled UC Americans. are. not but in most of Western Europe you've. seen a big rise in the share of kids.

being born outside marriage now the. question then was like what job if. anything was being done by marriage and. if marriage was a way to sort of signal. and. enshrine a commitment to having kids. together raising those kids together. then in a sense like there all kinds of. only you have a civil partnership now or. there are legal documents you can have. that kind of do that and so. if it gets if the de if the decline of. marriage is related to a decline in.

fathering that's a. problem it doesn't have to mean that. because a you can be a perfectly good. father if you're living with your. partner and you're not married but also. you can be a good father if for whatever. reason the relationship with the mother. doesn't work out it's harder uh you're. going to have to kind of work at it a. bit more but you can still do it but. because of this old idea of like. fathering being bundled together with. marriage right I think that's my big. problem is it was like it was like a. One-Stop thing right it's like husband.

and father was kind of like one thing. but that's not true anymore so it's okay. if that's not true so long as we don't. lose the fathering bit because dads. matter for their kids as much as their. moms in different ways and at different. times on average but so I my worry about. the changes in family are not about. marriage per se they're about what that. might mean for fatherhood and and what. lot of conservative critics will say is. well the evidence is that actually the. men who marry are more engaged fathers.

and do stick around for longer but of. course the problem with that that's one. of the reasons they got married yeah of. course yeah right so it's very hard to. tease out cause and effect there and in. the end I'm sort of agnostic about the. marriage question but I'm not agnostic. about the fathering question like I. don't think you have a moral. responsibility to get married before you. have kids at all I do think that if you. have kids you have a moral. responsibility to be a father to those. kids that is a that is just that's an. inextinguishable moral responsibility.

and that gets a little bit lost because. sometimes on the the Fe the feminists. left to just characterize horribly say. do we need do we need dads anymore isn't. that a bit heteronormative I've. sometimes been accused of being. heteronormative for being proad you what. about samesex couples what about single. parents are we saying that they need. their dads right isn't that that feels a. bit oldfashioned a bit conservative to. get that on the other side and then and. other side yeah of course dad's matter. that's why they all have to get that's. why they should be married and of course. the truth is between the two the truth. is that dad's matter will stop whether.

they're married to the mother or not um. and both the people who insist the only. way to do that is through marriage are. wrong and the people who insist that. dads don't matter are equally wrong and. about 40% of births in the US now take. place outside of marriage which is up. from about 10% 19up in us that's crazy. that's I that's just why is that is that. it's us is really weird because it has. really high rates of like unmar married. um pregnancies and births but then like. really high rates of marriage among the.

kind of college educated at the top so. as I said this huge class Gap there's a. race element here so 70% of black kids. in the US are born outside marriage. there's also a huge education Gap here. as I just alluded to is a big big class. Gap so most kids to non- colge educated. parents are born outside marriage in the. US now and so it's weird what's happened. is that the average marriage rate in the. US is really disguising these huge. differences by race and class whereas in. most western European countries there. aren't such big differences by RCI or. class it's more of a just more of a. general decline it hasn't declined.

particularly more for one class than. another in in the UK so quite common in. the UK for couples to decide to have. kids together have kids together and not. get married and that's definitely true. in Scandinavia and Northern Europe as. well and who is marriage good for who is. it serving more men or women now. men CU I I was thinking if we pressed a. button and the marriage stats went. backwards in time I more people got. married and they got married within um. when they they gave birth within.

marriages would that be better for men. or women it' be better for men why. because uh marriage being with the kids. and kind of with the the mom is just. right now still an incredibly important. way for men to feel needed connected. involved Etc now that might change but. right now it is pretty clear that. they'll do better and like if you look. at the impact of being being married and. not married on. employment. earnings.

health physical and mental health life. expectancy huge positive impacts for men. much less so for women so it's like. women and of course if you go back if we. went the other way like you'd say well. actually women who weren't married were. in real trouble economically until. recently right. so my line from before was that like. women used to be economic dependent on. men but men were emotionally dependent. on. women and I think we've really done a.

lot on the first half of that and it's. kind of revealing the second part the. kind of the fact that actually wifeless. men partnerless men childless men they. don't do so well in fact they do. terribly so I've mentioned this. four-fold suicide difference in Risk. it's eight an eight-fold difference. among divorced men and women so men who. get divorced their risk of of suicide. skyrockets so the question is like why. and I think it is because of this sense. of like not being needed not being like.

if your kids are at home and your wife's. at home and you know you're just you're. contributing to the family unit I think. that's much more obvious and it's really. interesting in recent surveys in the US. at least men are now more likely than. women to say that it's important to them. to get. married so what does that say about. what's going on in men's heads if. they're now more keen on marriage than. women what are what's it because that's. to me sounded a little bit I know. territorial well there's a danger with.

that and of course you can you can get. into real trouble as one of your. previous guests did by talking about. enforced monogamy who who talked Jordan. Peterson oh did he okay yeah he talked. about enforced monogamy it's a very. unfortunate term it's actually a term. from. anthropology that basically was a way of. describing this new way of raising. families there only been around for a. few centuries where you just where men. and women either by law or by social. Norm are only required to marry one. person they're required well you can't. bigam is a crime what's bigamy uh being.

married to more than one person okay. right it's a crime in the US it's a. crime in the UK it's a crime in most in. most countries it's actually against the. law to have more than one spouse imagine. how how how a liberal is that the state. telling me how many wives I'm allowed or. how many husbands I thought when you. said required I thought you meant you. have to marry one that's what people. thought it meant and that's why you got. into such terrible trouble um but it. actually what it's referring to as a. social system which is which is. basically against polygamy it's. basically saying no no no no one gets.

forced into marriage what it is is. saying if you going to marry it can only. be monogamous right okay so the the. trouble is that people the trouble is. people heard it as we're going to force. you into marriage and into monogamy and. actually what the term means is we're. not going to allow you to be polygamous. okay right so it's it kind of it was. sort of misinterpreted um the term was. misinterpreted um but it does speak to. this fear I think that people will feel. forced economically or socially in into. it it's actually has not for nothing. that Andrew Tate I'm sure you know.

Andrew Tate and his work I know who he. is yeah right I don't know him I've. never spoken to him right but I'm you. know who I'm referring to right why did. he convert to. Islam people aren't talking about this. by the way this is not a polite topic of. conversation Andrew Tate's conversion. for understandable reasons people don't. want to be seen to be St islamophobia or. whatever but but I will tell you this. and we published a piece by an Imam us. Andre Tate has a huge following among.

young Muslim men in the US and the UK. and he's now. converted to Islam. publicly and the reason he's done that. is so he can have multiple. wives which is to be fair to him. entirely consistent with his world view. about gender and gender equality and the. role of men and women right and so it's. interesting to kind of think about the. role and there's this rise of polyamory. now and and so on actually thinking.

about monogamy polygamy Etc it's it's a. much more complicated story I think than. many people are are willing to admit. because it's not clear that if we just. kind of take away the sort of social. norms around like the one andone model. that that will necessarily be better for. men so when you say of course men are in. favor of polygamy of course you'd be in. favor of it like who wouldn't want three. wives. shouldn't speak for you no I'm trying to. I'm trying to satisfy one at the moment.

right but actually as some people point. out you know actually if you're a woman. is it clear that you'd rather be the. only wife of an unemployed steel worker. than the second wife of an incredibly. successful. podcaster maybe maybe for all women. that's a clear choice right but but the. kind of points simply being is we. shouldn't just assume that this is kind. of a male you know only for kind of men.

idea um anyway it's a digression into an. area that I'm far from expert in but. it's prompted by this whole idea about. dating marriage and commitment and so. where I would land on this is that even. as we reform. marriage family life the roles of men. and women we have to be really careful. to keep GR rounding men in a sense of. being needed by their kids especially.

and by their communities if so if not in. the traditional way through a kind of. you know a recently traditional marriage. as the bread winner and provider and all. that the one my father had and Al lots. of other things besides swimming coach. math tutor chauffeur all the ways he. provided for us and as a father if we're. going to replace that with a new model. we have to be really careful to make. sure that we do replace it and that we. don't actually make men feel like they. are not needed in this new world are. women asking for divorce you know you're. talking about that you know idea of.

polygamy and women and men are women. asking for divorce now more so than men. are yes women are more likely to. precipitate divorce than. men and again does about two about two. to one I think wow certainly certainly. much in the US it's much higher among. women yeah I mean that's an indication. of something it's an indication. of a healthy Freedom yeah exit power. yeah exit power yeah I mean that's what. an economist would call it right and. that that's that shows you that's a.

massive sign of success that women can. leave relationships in a way that they. couldn't before because they were. trapped economically and so this kind of. economic trap that was marriage which. the women's movement really kind of. really took aim at and just said this. institution of marriage is basically a. way to trap and oppress women in. relationships of economic dependency. which you'll be powerless because he has. the money right that feminist critique.

of traditional marriage was profound and. correct and the results have been. extraordinary in unbundling that and. giving women economic power because. without economic power women don't have. choice about marriage so now we've got. this massive rise in women's Choice as. to whether to marry who to marry whether. to have kids who to have kids with Etc. and so you see this massive expansion of. women's choice and power which is. magnificent and destabilizing especially.

for men both of those things can be true. at once yeah it can be creating these. unintended destabilizing consequences. for men and if we then add to that a. danger sometimes to either mock men or. masculinity almost pathologize them in. humor but sometimes maybe not so much in. humor as well I think that just doubles. down on this sense it's like not only. are you not needed but maybe you're. actually a bit toxic uh and so I think. there's of all the moments to not be.

really kind of making sure that men feel. really bad about themselves this is not. that moment right what do you think of. that phrase toxic masculinity I think. it's. toxic I think the term toxic masculinity. is toxic I didn't always think that it's. taking me a while to get to that but I. would now say it's basically a slur it's. a gender slur if you like and it's just. used too easily too loosely too casually. to describe male behavior that we don't. like and I I would say actually most. thoughtful kind of women's groups and.

feminists are not supporting it now um. because it just it it's not a great. recruiting tool by and large right one. one big problem with it is if you ask. people who use the term toxic. masculinity to Define non-toxic. masculinity they struggle they'll say oh. no no there are positive aspects of. masculinity so okay great great what are. they and they'll say nurturing and. caring and kind kindness and emotional. availability and you go and is that. different from femininity say no no it's. the. same okay so let me get this straight.

masculinity is either toxic or not. masculine because if they start. saying. courage positive risk-taking you know. well channeled. competitiveness do you say what are you. saying women aren't. courageous uh no no I'm not saying that. okay so sorry what what do you so it's. an empty so non-toxic masculinity is. basically an empty set so they can't. fill that category so youve either got. toxic or or nothing that's bad but also.

just think on a visceral level it. reminds me and you have a church. background so the phrase toxic. masculinity really reminds me of the. term original. sin yeah it's something in you that's. kind of you didn't have any choice about. it like you inherited it um from. previous generations and it's kind of. bad and we can't get rid of it. uh so there s you're born with this flaw. you got to repent at all opportunities. for your yeah and it feels like that to.

me it's like just and maybe this is the. third point I don't know but it's like. honestly is the the best we can offer to. young men is a prospectus that we could. make them not toxic how would you like. to be non-toxic isn't that an exciting. idea that's the worst recruiting slogan. ever and so it's driving young men away. it's an incredibly unhelpful term it's. unfairly applied it used to have some. value in Academia like before 2016 it. had this very technical term in Academia. but I think as a term now it really just. does send this incredibly unfortunate.

message to men which doesn't encourage a. debate about how to be a better man I I. much prefer immature and mature. masculinity I like the idea of saying. like what does mature masculinity look. like because you know what immature. masculinity looks like right and so I. think this kind of maturation is a much. better way to frame it than toxic. non-toxic is there such a thing as and. I've never asked this question before. but it just came to mind is there such a. thing as toxic. femininity have you watched Mean.

Girls uh I can't say I've watched it but. I know the movie and I've seen trailers. and stuff there's a new Tina uh movie I. think right okay uh an update of it but. um yeah and interest I think this. relates to the debate about social media. and the way that social media is so. particularly damaging to the mental. health of teen girls and young women. because it's very relational and so the. relational bullying that girls and young. women are more likely to engage in than. men are so men are more likely. historically much less so today but to.

have bullied physically yeah women are. much more likely to bully relationally. so they exclude you you're not my best. friend anymore you're not invited you're. Etc and they bully by using you know how. you look but so that relational bullying. gets kind of Amplified by um social. media and so if you were to try and. Define toxic femininity I suspect that's. where you would go and it would be. around ostracism and meanness if you. think the mean girl's phenomenon is. getting at something real which is the. ability of kind of women to be pretty.

brutal to each other it's probably. something more around that but I I just. think putting the word toxic before. either femininity or masculinity is just. a bad move I think it's a bad move. intellectually and I think it's a. terrible move. culturally on this subject of um. masculinity one of the sort of defining. traits of masculinity in society is that. men don't speak they don't open up and. um they're less likely to I think they. struggle more to to form friendships.

I've certainly found that to be the case. in my life if if you drop me and my. partner in London as actually has. happened and she she wasn't from here. she's never lived here before it only. took her a couple of months before she's. got a group she's going to these like. dance this class and I'm away doing. Dragons day next week so she's found a. group of Portuguese girls and she's. gonna go watch the match and I could. never I don't know how the hell she's. made friends I I've made zero new. friends in London in five years MH my. friends are my colleagues and my friends.

that I've had for 10 years that is it I. don't make new friends um and and this. is something that I have echoed to me a. lot when I meet men out and about when I. could do talks and stuff and they come. up to me after I've had men whisper to. me how do how do I make friends where. I'm lonely and when they do it they come. really really close so that the person. behind them in the queue can't hear them. say it I exactly the same experience and. they whisper it about how do I make. friends or I'm feeling lonely or. something like that and I've heard in. your work the work that was in your book. I think on page 45 you say that there is. a male friendship recession what did you.

mean when you said that that we're. seeing a decline in in friendships. generally but it's much more acute for. men so in the US 15% of men under the. age of 30 say they don't have a single. close friend that's up from 3% in. 1990 and so that's almost one in seven. men um you're seeing declining number of. men saying how much time they spend with. friends uh drinking social networks. everything You' just described which is. like the process of making and.

sustaining friends is just something. that men are really struggling with. right. now much more so than women and I think. there's a couple of things going on here. one is we're revealing the extent to. which a lot of that work was actually. outsourced to women before right so if. you're in a couple how often are the. social arrangements made by the women um. they do a lot of the that mainten the. relationship maintenance and the men. free ride on the women right every like. weekend plan that's outside of my.

comfort zone pretty much most of them. come from my partner all right she's. organized something she's an organizer. she wants to go try this thing right and. you're like let's go do vegan sushi roll. I just want to play Far Cry five I just. want to lie on my back and watch. Manchester United all right fine sorry I. chose the wrong I chose the wrong thing. yeah I know um so I think like and women. have been better at it and Men haven't. had to do as much of it so in some ways. like I think we're being exposed a bit. more in a sense that like women aren't. doing as much of that work for us. anymore they're saying look I'm like.

it's not my job to create your. friendship Network for you so we're. having to do it and we're not very good. at it and we're certain not very good at. it yet and I've had the same experience. I mean I wrote a bit I wrote a bit about. loneliness and I spoke at an event not. that long afterwards and I had a couple. of young men exactly the same as you. just come clo and just say I'm. incredibly. lonely and thank you for talking about. this and you end up hugging them and. like and actually for. me I was talking to some about this the. other day there's something about. loneliness that just breaks my heart in.

a way that other forms of suffering. don't and I don't know why but if I hear. about someone that's really. lonely it just my mom was talking about. this guy that who she ran into him and. he was going to this supermarket and you. know he was in front of her in the queue. and she's like no after you he's like no. no no you go first and he said I'm on my. own and actually the hours after dinner. especially in the summer they're the. hardest so I always come down here to. the supermarket and I buy a couple of. things and then come back and have a.

chat and you know it fills my time and. my mom because she's like a massive like. she's like a social worker to the world. she ends up chatting to him and get. taking his phone number um but actually. that. just pierced my heart it just and so. when you hear about these men young old. women as like who are lonely I think. it's huge and and so I and and back to. our earlier bit of the conversation too. is like those institutions that maybe. used to kind of connect you to other. people right where do you where do you. make friends and you just said at work.

right and so I think our colleagues in. some ways become our friends and that's. not necessarily a bad thing saying it is. a bad thing but but it's it's different. to the Friends you've made at church or. through your sports or through do you. know what I mean or wherever and and so. the other thing I'll say about this is. have you heard of the men's sheds. movement I don't know what a men's sheds. is but I've heard of male groups and. stuff emerging yes there male groups. emerging there's one which is the. Australian government just funded this. in Australia it's called the men men's. sheds and there places where men go and.

fix stuff mhm like you'll bring a. lawnmower I do stuff right um and it's. one of the things that I found I've. really learned from this I wish I'd. known more about it before it's like. have you heard of this thing about men. communicating more easily shoulder toh. shoulder than face to face have you come. across this yeah I've heard about this. it's really interesting so when my uh my. wife would sometimes when my boys came. home from school she'd sit down directly. opposite them like across the breakfast. bar type thing right and she'd sit. directly opposite and give them protein. and then she'd be like how's your day.

yeah like she like this right and then. later on we'd be driving somewhere or. watching soccer or playing a video game. like shoulder toh shoulder and they'd be. like yeah it's weird thing happened. today with her or with me right So. eventually I said you've got to stop. staring them in their face that's not. how that's not how men open up right and. so the men's sheds movement is actually. I think based on a profound Insight. which which is that men have to be doing. something in order to be being with. their friend go into any coffee shop and.

count how many people are sitting there. staring at each other for hours on end. mostly women not saying right and then. go to fishing road trips it's the only. explanation for golf do you play golf no. thank god um but like like when a guy is. saying do you think I should use the. five iron yeah I don't play golf either. right but what he's really saying is I. love you yeah or I'm lonely or need help. and so there is something to be said for.

like men and even super have studied. actually how men stand in relation to. each other like a party or something. when I've told you this you won't be. able to stop looking is that men. actually always a bit of an angle right. we just don't stand face to face it's it. spikes our threat cortisol or whatever. so we always stand a little bit of an. angle um but also like doing something. together um requires us to be more. shoulder-to-shoulder which is why some. psychotherapists now they do walking. talking therapy they realized that with. men especially like sitting them down. and staring at them is less effective. quite often than going for a walk you've. done therapy haven't you yeah how was.

it I've done therapy and I've done. coup's therapy and um I actually I will. say that I did much better with the male. therapist and one of them we did. walk um and so I'm basing some some kind. of personal experience which is like. there's something about sitting on a. chair or kind of and being stared at and. told to open up I've been there do you. find it hard to do that yes I do I find. it really really hard when I did Coupes. therapy and I've done um individual. therapy I found it really hard I find it.

even harder in couple couple. therapy it's one of the reasons. I'm really worried about the declining. share of men in Psychology and therapy I. mean you know we emptying the men out of. those professions really yeah yeah the. share of men going into psychology and. counseling has plummeted in the US and. the UK so there are fewer and fewer men. it's getting harder and harder to find a. male therapist now maybe that doesn't. matter but I absolutely think it matters. and again we basic like you just shared.

your experience I'll share mine is that. I think to have the option and when you. know one of my kids really needed. therapy too I think for him he did so. much better with a man and I I think. there's some depending on the nature of. the problem maybe you're St it's just. something about like an intuitive. connection if you're a B2B marketeer. then you want to stick around for the. next 30 seconds or say as a businesso. business marketeer you all know how. tough it is to explain what you do I've. been there too but there's a platform. that gets us and that's LinkedIn I'm.

happy to say sponsor this podcast. imagine a place where you can connect. with professionals who truly understand. your world that is LinkedIn ads LinkedIn. ads helps you to build a meaningful. relationships and drive results in a. respectful environment with over a. billion members including 130 million. senior level Executives and 10 million C. Level Executives you can Target your. audience precisely by job title industry. and much more LinkedIn members are. always updating their profiles so your. targeting stays fresh and relevant it's.

no surprise that LinkedIn is the highest. returning paid social platform and. Linkedin ads have kindly offered all of. you a $100 credit to launch your first. campaign and start reaching the right. people go to linkedin.com. doac 24 to claim your credit terms and. conditions. apply I think I heard you say that going. to couples's counseling with your. partner was one of the most difficult. things you've ever. done. yes this is a quote the hardest thing.

you've ever done as a man is when him. and your wife went to couples therapy. you said that on Scott Galloway's. podcast yes. why so my wife and I were working. through actually a lot of these issues. that we've been talking about today like. what our relative roles were and. responsibilities and and she's been very. successful professionally and we've. raised our kids together I've been a. stay-at-home dad and and then worked and.

so on and there was this moment. where it was really one of those pivotal. moments in your life where I was talking. about what I done at home and how i'. supported her career and you know all of. that and she looked at me and. said you seem to think the the problem. is that you're not feminist. enough the problem is that you're not. masculine.

enough like that's a moment that's a. real moment that was a it. was and we then started talking what did. she mean by that and it was about. responsibility it was about stepping in. in some ways to some of those roles and. and what I came to realize and this is. in some ways the book The the book. underneath that book which is my own.

journey and my own struggles with my own. sense of what does it mean to be a man. what does masculinity mean in a. relationship and a society of. profound moral equality between men and. women. and I realized that in some ways i' I'd. been sort of almost at War with my own. masculinity for quite a long time. because it didn't fit my feminist. mindset right like to the extent that.

there were things that I kind of wanted. or felt that didn't fit with the kind of. model of gender equality and feminism. that's that was a problem to be solved. rather than a way of being to be. expressed and learned about and it took. that moment of my incredibly feminist. unbelievably professionally successful. wife to say I think the problem is. you're not masculine enough and it was. just like the energy that I had and.

like I felt as if like asking for more. in our relationship for myself was to be. a bad feminist was to not support her I. was supposed to be a good. Ally you know the world is made for men. and all our needs and desires and so on. so my job was to to be an ally to her. and anything that got in the way of that. or that was difficult or complicated and.

it was well I I don't know what would. have happened to our relationship. without it but I can tell you that from. that moment onwards our relationship. grew and flourish and continues to flow. in a way that it just would not. otherwise have done because it's almost. like VI being so. direct she forced this movement inside. me where I almost gave myself. permission to give some expression to. the sides of myself that are more.

masculine I mean that's not the. conversation people hear. publicly you're not putting this out are. you I thought it was just us but I mean. people don't people don't there's so. much truth to that and I think there's. so many women that are listening right. now that are nodding their head and can. relate in various ways because of the. way that Society is to some degree now. um but that's not the narrative we hear. that a woman would turn to you and and.

ask you to be more masculine in the. context of sort of the typical idea of. what masculinity means it at least what. it means to her yeah almost the opposite. it would be with the toxic back to your. point about it is masculinity the. problem which I thought it was and it. took her to point out that no no no it's. how it's expressed that's the question. and and for me it was like I just. I thought that being assertive in the. relationship was.

somehow bad because it was associated. with kind of you know patriarchy. masculinity and like men dominating and. like and it's really interesting like. I'll bring it down to like a more benign. level I think a lot of young women. actually one of the things they feel. about a lot of young men is that they're. a bit. passive it's almost like a lot of those. men almost don't feel they have. permission to be assertive and what. women like it's it's fun for you and I. to talk about what women want isn't it. but I think there something what a lot. of the women I talk to say is like I.

just want someone who's my equal and. that's so weird to say now right but. they they want someone that's a partner. that's with them and and they say well. what know what should we do tonight or. you know where should we go for dinner. and if he says I don't know you decide I. don't mind right it's always just like. well no you decide and you make a plan. and you you you know you book it you. like show some agency here and I might. not always agree with you or even like. it we can get get into that right but.

just going passive is not what makes you. a good partner or a good feminist and I. and I I think my maybe my gener I'm. older than you maybe my generation of. men have really struggled more with that. just because I think it was kind there. was this kind of strong sense that we. that we needed to sort of yeah. just in order for women to become bigger. we had to make ourselves smaller. and I think that was a profound. intellectual and for me emotional and. relational error the point is we all.

need to get bigger we all want to rise. and grow and challenge each other and. challenge each other to grow. not silence ourselves or bench. ourselves following going through that. process with your partner how did you. change I became much more willing so one. of my issues is I'm quite agreeable. right so I don't like I avoid conflict. quite a. bit um but I also saw like provoking. conflict and disagreeing and arguing as.

like bad for the relationship and also. like me doing it as a man like bad for. her and and so I actually became much. more willing to say no I don't want to. do that I want to do this or I want to. go there not there or I'd like to do. this not that um and and it caused more. arguments which was uncomfortable for me. but it was great and it was what she. wanted there were two aspects to it if. I'm honest like one was like stand up a. little bit more for myself and a little. bit like in the relationship and be like.

no I like I disagree about that I'm. going to do this and just give her more. of a equal in that sense of challenge. but the other thing was really an issue. was just actually just the kind of. responsibility responsibility around. kind of economics and so on too and I. don't think this was just about gender. but it took me a while I think to really. get a proper sense of like just being a. a provider a coach. provider wasn't bad right making. money in a way that would help our.

family and give us more choices wasn't. bad and so there was there was that kind. of sense too as like because she' at. that up until that point she'd actually. done more the breadwinning MH uh and so. there's a kind of sense of her saying. look I'm I'm about as feminist as you. get but you know what wouldn't mind it. if we could do a bit of this you can do. a bit more of that as well I read some. study the other day and I'll I'll triple. check this and put it on screen but I. think the study if I'm going to get this. correct said that about 70% of women.

want to be with a guy that's earning. more than them something like that it. was like 70 80% or something like that. that's about right I mean you can check. it but it depends which server you can. choose a Ser yeah like but you know what. it's so interesting that's I've been. thinking about that quite a bit recently. that reliably in surveys women will say. like I want a guy that can that has. earning potential earns more can earn. more but what you have to be really. careful I think how the questions asked. and what the interpretation of it. is um I think.

actually what it's very often about is. women wanting and a lot of young women. have said suggested this to me not just. young women but but even women of my. generation that what they really want is. a. partner and earning is a really good. proxy for someone who's got their act. together right someone who's a good. earner yeah is also gonna be a good. father probably and a good partner and. so on too so it's actually just a really. good signal right the market the labor. market is a very good signal of all. kinds of other skills and so on um so. that's number one I think they actually.

just getting someone who like is he's. got his act together right he's he's. he's he's good thing he's got skills. he's got you know he's got agency he's. like and those are good in all kinds of. other circumstances too so when I was a. stay-at home Dad I like to think I had a. lot of agency and I didn't like lie on. the sofa all day like I did stuff and. organized stuff so I think it's partly. that but I also think it's partly. because a lot of women want. choice they want options to maybe take. some time themselves to be at home and.

that's a really interesting modern. development right is I think the. feminist call now from a lot of wom to. men is like I don't know if I'm going to. want to take time out to kind of raise. the kids but I'd like the option yeah. right and that's only an option if. you're doing your bit if you're earning. right and so I do know some women who. like very successful professionally and. then they have kids and their partner is. much much less successful like I know. one couple where he was he was literally. a kind of mus failing musician as she. was like this partner in some Law Firm.

or whatever it's it was like a it was. like a movie it's so stereotypical but. and she like she has kids and she's like. well I'd like to have a bit of time Ain. going to live on his you know solo. guitar YouTube salary or whatever it was. right and at that point she's mad at him. maybe a little bit too late you because. like I just i' just like you to. give me the option H and of course we. won it both ways now right like it was. great for me to be able to have time at.

home while my uh my partner was able to. just go for it professionally for a. while just totally go for it that was. beautiful for both of us but we. shouldn't make the mistake of thinking. that it shouldn't go both ways like we. can't we can't we got to couldn't get. rid of the provider model we got to. think about ourselves as copr providers. of a whole bunch of things money time. love energy and not take ourselves out. the equation at all that's not. that's not that's not what the women's. movement was about the women's movement. was about women securing economic. independence not about men losing it.

that's not attractive you've got two. sons right three three sons okay so I. guess this kind of brings us to the. penultimate point which is you if you. were sitting down with all three of your. sons which you might have done already. and they said to you Dad listen what. does it mean to be a man in the modern. world what should I do should I hold the. door open should I I don't know uh go to. the gym should I pursue a highflying. breadwinning job what does it mean to be. a man what advice would you give them.

about being a man in the modern world. honestly the advice that would set them. up to be successful in their romantic. relationships and in the world and in. their. mind yeah what it's interesting because. in some ways I think the fact that. conversation might almost be a sign of. failure not just individually more. socially because I really believe that. people believe their eyes before they. believe their ears and so what I would. really hope is that I've been showing.

not. telling um that it's not a curriculum. it's not a here are the here's the. four-point plan for modern masculinity. based on my years of research it's more. like well you've seen how I am you've. seen how I am with your mom you've seen. how I've worked you've seen how I've. raised you you've seen like how you've. seen you've seen how I interact with. people in there's this lovely phrase. from a philosopher is in the thick of. daily life like how are you in the thick. of daily life you've seen me help that. person you've seen me like they tease me. with this I pick up the lime scooters.

all the time right because someone's. going to trip over them right You'. you've you've seen how I've reacted like. and I haven't done that kind of saying. oh this is masculinity but you've seen. me do certain things that you've just. kind of imbued along the way so that. sounds like a cop out but I won't cop. out completely because I think I would. say look first of all recognize that. there are on average differences right. so there are going to be things that. you're going to be inclined towards or. want to do that just different right. there's nothing wrong with masculinity. nothing wrong with some of these. impulses and instincts that you've got.

right of course you want complete gender. equality and so you're going to look for. partners who are going to give you that. as well and above all be for others. serve and so the first two i' open the. door for sure yeah what was the second. one I can't remember but you said open. the door. um it's about career and it's about. going to the gym go to the gym sure I. mean actually all the evidence about. being physically healthy is is important.

um but then kind of get a highing job I. wouldn't say that uh I would say find. work that yes will pay don't be naive. about that but it's much more important. you're passionate about your work you'll. be much more attractive to someone if. you're passionate we only we're only. here once for God's sake and so the idea. that you're going to you know that. someone's attracted someone who like. kind of into their work just because it. makes a bunch back to. our that's not. sexy doesn't matter what the paycheck is. right what sexy is passion and agency.

and you know Verve Mojo whatever so. absolutely I I would uh I would advise. uh all of that I actually think it's. kind of weird back to the dating thing. is. that in some I think it captures a lot. of our conversation though which is that. I I've tried to raise them in a way that. would give them the courage to ask a. girl. out the grace to accept no for just. accept no for an. answer and then the responsibility to.

make sure that either way she gets home. safely so what I've got in there is a. little bit of agency a little bit of. leaning in a little bit of taking a risk. it's a risk to ask someone out right and. I think risk taking is is on average a. bit more mascul that's secondly you have. no sense of entitlement about that and. if you've read it wrong or whatever and. she's like no thank you like you are. totally cool with that right incredibly. but then thirdly either way right there. is a responsibility to make sure people.

are kind of safe and if you're in a. position where you're a little bit. stronger and able to do that great in. fact I had a rule with my kids that they. they had a curfew but actually they. broke the curfew because they were. getting someone home safely they got an. exemption from that and there was one. night one of my sons came home and he. was I was waiting for him and he was 30. minutes after curfew pouring with rain. he came home drowned rat and he'd walked. to girl home got home safely like great. now I like to think that sort of. formulation is capturing some stuff that. is a bit more inherently masculine but. in a world where there's no entitlement.

there's no sense of inequality and I. don't think that's a horrible formula. and generally speaking I've kind of. found a lot of men kind of men and women. like Yes actually actually I would quite. like you I'm as a covered garage or what. I would actually quite like to kind of. make you make sure that I get to my car. safely or kind of whatever and I don't. think that's. patriarchy I think that's good manners. and responsibility what that doesn't. mean is that and you do it for your boss. you do it for somebody else it doesn't. mean that there's any going back to a.

world where that gave you some sort of. extra power in the labor market or. something like that so I think it's. really difficult honestly right now to. get this right I think but I think too. many people also treading on eggshells a. little bit too yeah like they do rather. than run the risk of doing something. wrong they do. nothing and that's the worst of all. worlds because we don't learn but also. those kids are going to fall into their. hands of others in terms of their. influence so they're going to learn how. to be a man from Tik Tok or Twitter and. you never know which algorithm is going.

to sweep them away one thing we can be. pretty sure of is that with some. exceptions you're not going to learn how. to be a man from social media or online. you're going to learn it from your dad. your neighbor your brother your teacher. your coach the the the best antidote to. some of the reactionary content that. some young men are encountering online. now isn't other online content much. though of course we're all producing. more online content it's actually a real.

live man in your life it's flesh and. blood it's I and I think that's so much. more powerful I think that my son as a. teacher in front of a classroom of boys. is going to be a much more powerful. antidote to those reactionary figures. that they might see online than somebody. else online that's how we win we win in. real life not online I mean there's kind. of two adjacent points here the first is. your your son is going into a profession. that is incre increasingly depleting in. men yeah because I what's it like 20% or. 30% of primary school teachers are women. uh men uh no it's primary it's one in 10.

one in 10 in primary yeah okay so those. those role models are lacking in primary. education but then he's going into SEC. is it high school Secondary School uh. he's going to be teaching Elementary to. start with yeah the primary school yeah. so those role models are really needed. there and the adjacent point was you've. talked to me about what you'd say to. your sons around the kitchen table but. but if I elect you as president of the. world or at least the Western World you. in us let's say um and North America and. I tell you that you've got to solve the. issues you talk about in this book of.

boys and men why the modern male is. struggling why it matters and what to do. about it fact you had to solve the. issues you describe so eloquently what. would you do at a social level to fix. things the suicidality the mental health. issues we're seeing the loneliness we're. seeing the educational Gap we're seeing. if you're in a position where you have a. a voice you're in a position where. Authority president prime minister or. anybody actually I think it's very easy. to understate the power of Simply.

acknowledging a problem and having. empathy for the people who are. struggling from it and so whilst I could. list a whole bunch of policy Solutions. which I think would be part of the inter. you you'd have to say and that's why I'm. doing X that's why I'm having a men's. health strategy and we're hiring male. teachers and we're you know we're having. a we're funding Mental Health Services. for men Etc I would do all that but I. actually think that the most important. move would be to send a signal. especially to young men and boys who are.

struggling I see you we see you we hear. you we've got you we understand that. you're struggling we are not going back. on the move for women and girls but we. are taking your problems. seriously and we're continuing to take. the problems of women and girls. seriously simp L making them feel seen. and heard and empathized with is a. massive thing it's a massive because so.

many of them right now feel as if their. problems aren't being discussed aren't. being addressed at that level they are. being addressed online over here by many. reactionary figures but they're not. being addressed by the people in. positions of power very often they're. being dismissed sometimes and the result. of that is to create this really. dangerous vacuum in our society also in. men's lives like if there are real. problems and we neglect them and they. don't feel they they can become.

Grievances and that's a Perfectly. Natural result of having real problems. that are neglected and. so simply. saying we understand it is it is a. struggle right now there are a lot of. problems facing young men and we are on. it I can't I cannot tell you how. powerful I think that would be because. so so many men feel right now as if. their problems are sort of second order. problems they just don't count as much. they're not being addressed in the same. way or if they are it's turned back on.

them it's because you don't try it's. because you're lazy it's because you. watch too much porn it's because you're. toxic it's what so individualize back on. them and you need to fix yourself and I. think if we were just if we were just. able to say we can do two things at once. and we can continue to fight for women. and girls but we can also help you boys. and men I think it would be profound. it's so clearly so important to that. group in particular as well because. letting them know that they are seen in. a situation where they they are already.

unbelievably. alone in the sense of. loneliness um is especially powerful and. I think just from having these. conversations on the podcast I've seen. that I've seen that. um I've seen that just by having the. conversations even if we don't have all. the solutions yet just by turning the. lights on and saying okay this is a. thing people are so unbelievably. grateful and it's not just men that are. grateful if you look at the the gender. split on the podcast that I've done with.

um men and women on these male issues. the comment section are full of mothers. and grandmothers and sisters um and. daughters who are equally concerned. about men and boys in the same way that. we should all be concerned about the. issues that women and girls face and I. think that's a really wonderful thing. because I feel like someone said to me. on the podcast you know we've spent a. long time calling men out and now we. need to call them back in yes and I. think it's just a wonderful expression. of um where I think we find ourselves at. where we're now trying to figure out how. we co coexist and champion each other.

and the individual issues we both have. is um two different Sexes and um well. thank you for your work in this space I. do think that using your. platform to honestly engage to to. Grapple with this is in the way that we. have today and you have with others and. just there aren't eat as hard I think. that's an incredibly important thing. because if you're not talking about it. others will be and so for you to use. your voice and this kind of space to. just say we get it we're hearing you. we're seeing it we maybe don't have the.

answer it's very powerful for you to use. your voice to do that and I'm glad. you're getting the reaction that you are. which is to a much lesser extent in my. the reaction I get too which is thank. God because you're not framing it in a. reactionary way you're not saying and. that's why we need to go back to the 50s. men were men and women were you're. saying no no this is hard right but. yeah we see it yeah and I I love the. progress we've made as a society um I. love that I love it for all the women in.

my lives I love it for myself I love it. for my sister for my mother for my. partner for all the wonderful women that. work with me but I also know that with. all with all upsides comes a unintended. consequence as well and if we can um. manage that if we can manage both the. upside and sustain that while managing. the unintended consequence and talk. about it and this is something this is. not just about socialis it's about medic. we're talking before about medicine or. any other you know being really. successful in work comes with an.

unintended consequence over here right. you lose your friends or you might. become lonely if we can highlight both. and manage both and talk about both and. I think we'll we'll be much better as a. society and if we're much better as a. society then I think we'll be much. better um we'll all be happier and we'll. all be better and it's it's difficult to. have these conversation sometimes. because obviously this is these are such. polarizing issues yes but what the what. the [ __ ] am are we here for if not to. have those conversations if you as you. speak about this stuff and I found. myself doing it a bit in this. conversation you think like what's the.

what's the kind of least generous. interpretation of what I've just said. yeah that someone's going to post. somewhere right and but if if if you if. we constantly worried about what the. least generous interpretation of what. we're saying is we'll never say anything. 100% And and so just by saying it and. trying to be honest about it and. changing your mind but just having I. think you're proving this that the. appetite for good faith convers ations. about real issues is huge right now I. think people kind of over the. simplification they're over the. algorithm they're over the sound but now. we're all kind of in it still but but.

just honestly wrestling with real. problems and seeing that we have to rise. together I think that's a huge gift we. have a closing tradition on this podcast. where the last guest leaves a question. for the next guest not knowing who. they're leaving it for awesome I'm. assuming that's the last one yeah must. be there's no other yeah it is okay. interesting they've written a statement. at the top which is someday is now full. stop and then they've written at your. age at this point in your journey what.

is one thing you always swore you would. do one day have you done it yet and if. not why. not I can't answer that. question I'm trying really hard. because I'm trying to think of anything. that I have sworn I will do one day. and I can't think of a single thing. Richard thank you thank you it's been. such a wonderful conversation for so.

many reasons and um you know I have zero. doubt that there are so many so many men. and women out there that are have. benefited tremendously from the fact. that you do the work that you do in the. way that you do it and I think that's a. really important additional part to the. sentence which is the way in which you. do it tone matters right it really. really matters it really matters because. think you're able to call everybody into. the room um in a way that other people. aren't they call half of the group into. the room or just some of the group into. the room which I I never think is the.

best way to get ideas across. but really skillfully in your book but. in your work more generally you call. everybody into the room and you you do. it in a way which is objective it's not. political um and it's incredibly. powerful and compelling and that's. exactly what your your book was I spent. a long time after having multiple. conversations on this podcast looking. for the book that sets the right tone. and can speak to someone like me who. considers myself I'm not sure if this is. always true because I said biases and.

stuff but considers myself right in the. middle in terms of politics and all. these things so your book was it didn't. seem to be pandering to either group it. seemed to be able to maintain an. absolute objectivity which was. incredibly powerful but everything is. supported by data and stats not just. Vibes and I think that is the book that. Society is need and I think it is this. book so I'd highly recommend everybody. give it a read if you have any interest. in these subjects we've discussed today. I'm going to link it below for everyone. um it's called of boys and men why the.

modern male is struggling why it matters. and what to do about it um but also for. all of the millions of people listening. right now um thank you because I'm sure. all of them would like to say thank you. for you for for variety of different. reasons but on behalf of them thank you. so much for doing the work that you do. it's very very important and to kind of. close off this conversation thank it. means a lot to me we say that oh thank. you we need you too. [Music].

[Music].