Frank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264

When you get that call, had you known. the context, the behind the scenes, that. unhealthy culture, honestly, do you. think you would have made a different. decision? I think I I think I can say this. Frank Lampard! Lampard! Lampard has. found the net! Premier League icon, Chelsea legend! I read that your dad was the biggest. influence on your career, and then I. read a separate quote saying that. sometimes I hated him. You know, my dad was a tough man, pushed. me very hard on the football front, and. it got probably a bit too much. But the. fear of failure was a huge driving force.

that made me what I was and gave me the. career I got in the end. Chelsea fans will be listening to this. because they want to get your opinion on. what's just happened, because since. you've left, we've not really heard from. you. I came back here because this was an. opportunity to come to Chelsea, a club. close to my heart, but I could see in. training the level wasn't enough, the. size of the squad, with players that. will test you and question you, questioning you. Mhm. And then Chelsea spent more money. than anyone's ever spent in a window. It. seemed like chaos. Could see that the players were ready. for the season to finish, but low. standards are a symptom of something.

further upstream that's happened. You know, we didn't get the results I. wanted, and I know a lot of the reasons. why. Like what? So. One moment I can in your life that. really tested you at a much deeper. level. The passing of your mother, and while. you were playing at the very, very. highest level. I was a mommy's boy. I lost the closest. person to me, you know, everything to. me. The emotional support. Ugh, want to say something more, you. know, and. couldn't. What would you want to say?

Frank is a legend. There's absolutely no. denying that. But so much has happened in recent times. in his life as a manager. that unanswered questions remain. And I. wanted to have a conversation with. Frank, an honest, open conversation. to see if we could get to the bottom of. some of those unanswered questions. What was happening behind the scenes? How did it actually feel for Frank?

Is anyone to blame? What does Frank want to do next? And how. and what caused Frank to be. the man that he is? And that's maybe the. most fascinating question of all. Because there's some things. that Frank has just never talked about. before. But he's made the decision to talk about. them today. And if you have unanswered questions, I don't think you will at the end of. this episode.

Frank, how are you doing? Really well, thank you. There's always a There's always a short. and a long answer to that, isn't there? I was waiting for your secondary answer. What's the What's the long version of of. that? No, I'm doing really well. I'm um. I'm currently. uh on a break, I suppose, from working. Which is a pleasure in ways, because I'm. obviously the the work of a.

of a manager. uh I was going to say Premier League. manager, but any manager in football is. intense. Um. so at the moment I'm on a a break. It's. sort of holiday time for me a little. bit, family time. Um and probably when I'm. out of work, I learned this when I left. Chelsea, actually. Um. it was I had a year out after that, and. I and I really learned to try to improve. my appreciation of when you're out of. work. You're fortunate enough to be able. to be out of work, whatever that. circumstance is, but try and enjoy your. family and be very, very present. So at.

the minute I'm pretty present at home, which is a good thing, hopefully, for my. children and and wife. And uh. I'm in a pretty good place. I remember my my brain would often drift. off when I had my time out of work. Um. and I would think about things. professionally. So I think about things. that I could be doing, or you think back. to the past. When you're When you're. having those moments where you make I. don't know, your kids are running. around, and you you have a moment where. your brain drifts off to work. What is. What are the subjects that your brain. starts thinking about professionally? You You think a lot in management uh.

about people. So, if I If I reflect on. situations like leaving Chelsea or. leaving Everton and those things, there. is There are a lot of things that are. out of your control. You get to a point where you kind of can. get probably 70% of them and lock them. away and kind of go, "No, I'm I'm all. right with that." You know, results you. can't control, but 70% you kind of. you're okay with. And it's 30% that you. kind of niggles at you. That's how I am. And a lot of those things when you. become manager are maybe sort of like. people things. I think this stuff. tactics and all these things are huge in. the modern game, and.

I uh I'm certainly a coach. I'm not a. manager. But, when it comes to managing, I don't know, 25, 30. players, um managing a building because you are. the figurative head of a building when. you're the head coach or manager, I think sometimes when you're. reflecting, you can reflect on things. Did I have that Was that interaction. right? Would I have dealt with that. right? Could I have dealt with it. differently? And hindsight is like the. the best best thing, you know, it's so. simple to sit there with hindsight and. think, you know, I should have done. that. So, I suppose I have moments where. I go over things like that, but they're. all They're all with a with a yearning.

to sort of be a bit better or learn that. you might have done something wrong or. actually you come to the conclusion, "No, I maybe did it right." So, you. know, I dip in and out of that stuff. Um. and that probably is, you know, as I. say, I wouldn't say I'm the only one, but I certainly am someone that is. you know, I can never control when those. moments come. I can be now pushing the. swing, you know, with with my kid, and. then my my mind goes back to something. or things that head to something, and I, you know, that probably means that I'm. absolutely invested in what I do. Yeah, I can relate to all of that. And I. think any Anybody can. Um and I also. really like your analogy of once you get.

to like 50 70% peace with something, it's kind of resolved as much as you. know. And then there's other things. which feel kind of unresolved, I guess, or like there's more wisdom to garner. from those experiences. Well, I think if you don't get to peace. with the 70%, I think you can get. yourself in a bit of a mess, you know, I. think you can go over everything, can. correct yourself, and then then then. what is the answer going forward? So, I. think I kind of understanding what you. are, and then kind of no, no, that that. was fine. Whatever the result for a win. or for a loss. I've had games as a as a. coach and as a player. where I I.

we've won a game and I know I got. something wrong in the game, but you. take the applause itself as but inside I. know I got it wrong. I've had games that. we've lost and you get criticism from. the outside and I know my prep was. right, you know, in my head. So, I think. those sort of things you can kind of. stack up and go, "No, well, that's. fine." But then there there's always the. 30% and we'll always strive for and it. might be less. I don't know, 30% sounds. a big number when I say it. Sometimes. it's 10% to try and make you as good as. you can be. So, I kind of go over that. stuff because when you're out of work, when you're not working and you don't. know in football you don't know what. your next gig is, you know, it's very hard to jump too far.

into the future because everything looks. different there. So, how can you stack. yourself up as good as you can now? I want to get into all of that, but I I. want to take a step back because I think. um I feel like there's more I need to. understand about who you are as a person. and your characters and your character. and really the the. they're like the foundations you're. built upon to understand all of these. thing the things we're going to talk. about. So, what do I what do I need to. know about Frank Lampard in terms of the. influences and the experiences that. shaped your character, the character of.

the man that's sat in front of me? Cuz. you know, I've spoken to a lot of people. about you in preparation of this. conversation. No, but they all they all seem to sing. from the exact same hymn sheet. They all. say everyone says you're just a. a wonderful man, like a really good. solid gentleman. And it's people don't know this, but we. were meant to have this conversation. before. Yeah. But you've just been a total class act. in even not being able to come last time. because of, you know, reasons outside of. your control. Um. the way you conduct yourself, you just. conduct yourself as a real gentleman. Um.

and then in terms of your mentality, when I was reading through your early. years, it's clear that there was this. real. obsession to be better. I mean, Harry. said Harry Redknapp said that you were. the the hardest training, hardest. working person he's ever worked with. when you're a young man. Tell me, what do I Why is Frank Lampard. the way he is? Uh I grew up in in Romford in Essex. So, um I would call it probably a a. middle-class upbringing in terms of my. dad had been a professional footballer. Um and so I went through a pretty um.

comfortable upbringing where I was going. to school every day, aspiring to do. pretty well at school, um training pretty much every day and. playing at the weekends. After school. we're going to train at Tottenham and. Arsenal and West Ham. At one point I was. training at all three. You could in. those days. Now it's different. Uh I was playing cricket. I was playing. for Essex as um as a as a child. So, that was on Monday night having nets at. Chelmsford. And then on Sun- Saturday I. went to school cuz we're in school on. Saturdays. So, I was devastated with it. at the time as we all were, but that was. how the school worked. And on Sundays I. played. So, my my week was so busy, but.

it was content, very content. In terms. of relationship of my family, I had a. a dad who was push me very hard on the. very very hard. He was quite a hard. taskmaster. What does that mean in in reality? Um that means that probably when I was I. probably started kicking a ball when I. was about four or maybe as soon as I. could walk. But you know, like. remembering my early days would be four. or five. And then so that was me in terms of I. loved the football. Um but probably by. the time I was eight or nine, I was.

probably getting like coached or pushed. in. in what a 15 or 16-year-old might be. when they're sort of going into an. academy at West Ham say, where I ended. up. As in work on your weaknesses, go. over the park, you need to have more. stamina, your left foot's not good. enough, your agility's not good enough. So, here I was like. used to put down the the the the. cushions in the front room and have me. doing reaction front ball against the. wall reaction jump. I'm a I'm a kid. I I. I loved it, don't get me wrong, but. there were times when I didn't love it. And it got probably a bit too much. I'm. not going to.

cry about it because. it made me what I was and gave me the. career I I got in the end. And then on. the other flip of that, so I had that. kind of thing. And so after a game on a. Sunday, I we would lose and I would get. he would give me some criticism on the. way home and I would be a bit emotional. And fortunately for me, when I think. about sort of. fate and how things work together to. maybe get you to where you got you you. end up being, my mother was the the. flip, the emotional support, the you. know, arm around you, the quiet word. I.

was a mummy's boy and that was. completely my upbringing. And so as I. say, it was pretty comfortable and in. the end it led to me leaving school with. my GCSEs, getting decent grades, and. then going to sign on as a YTS at the. time, an apprentice at West Ham. I read that the quote about your father, I think it was in the Independent, that. your dad was the biggest influence on. your career. And then I read a separate. quote saying that, I have an awful lot. to thank him for, but sometimes I hated. him. Yeah. I. I I stick by that quote.

It's. I think you'll probably find it um. a lot in stories similar to mine. Um. and in the modern day, I think it's. changed cuz I think parents now my. the thing with my. story then in a different era was it I. it felt pretty organic. My dad had. played. Um he saw probably a bit of talent in me. and pushed and drove and an old school. way I wanted you to be a player, son, you know, and it was like he sent I. think he found a new sense of pride in. pushing me there. Now I think some. parents get excited about all the bright.

lights that may be and they push their. children and I think that's another. story, but I think mine was real. You. know, my dad was a tough man, is a tough. man. And he pushed me and um. I remember being over a park and it was. raining. It was crossing balls for me to. head. Heading's never been a strength of. mine. Then and now, never throughout my. career. And I couldn't, you know, I. couldn't connect. I was missing them and. he was shouting at me and I remember. sort of stumping off and. and being emotional about it and um. those things stick in my head and again, they were the building blocks of of.

myself as a person. So, you know, this isn't a sob story. It's just a. reality of what I went through. As I. said, I had a lot of other comfort, so. you know, other people don't have it as. good. And it was without that, who knows. in a football sense if I'd have got to. where I got. And how does that. What relationship does that make you. have with your work and progress and. self-improvement at that very young age? Cuz you signed at West Ham when you were. what, 14 years oldish? Uh 15, maybe. Yeah, 15.

And and I I mean, as I said, I read that. Harry Redknapp quote that you outworked. everybody else. Yeah. Um. What what what is your relationship with. your work from that very young age? Well, I'm sort of. really interested in this kind of nature. versus nurture thing. What what was in me already, was. ingrained in me maybe to be this kind of. very work ethic-y kind of person. I. think I had, you know, physical. capacity. I was a chubby kid, to be. fair. I was quite chubby. I had these. cheeks, curtains, as you had in those days. And I remember.

like, I know I needed to get fitter and. and get stronger. So, and then being pushed by my dad. particularly and encouraged by my mom. probably gave me this real desire. to and an understanding that if you. don't work, you're not going to get. there. And that, you know, that's what I. would try and pass on to my children. now. But it really stuck and it became me. So, by the time of being, you know, 16 as I. as I remember it, probably been at West. Ham in my early years, I'd. probably been forced into a bit by my. dad, but I took it on board. So, you.

know, I wanted to get faster, so he put. me in running spikes and I had to run. after training go and run over the back. And I used to hide my spikes, go out the. back so didn't want the other players to. see me cuz I felt embarrassed. Um I'd go in on days off. Um I would. practice extra shooting. I would do. everything I could to to improve. And it. probably was, looking back, um. a desire to be the best. And I was never. the best. I was probably like the second. or third best kid in pretty much every. team that I played in in whatever I did. cricket or football.

Um but I had a real desire to and I also. had a fear of failure. And as much as. that doesn't sound like a nice driving. force, it can be a really strong driving. force, I think. Where did that fear of failure come. from? I don't know. I don't know. I think it's in my makeup, maybe. I I don't know. It's probably. just how I am. I probably have it still. these days. I think it can be really. positive. It was in my football in. career and it it carried on throughout. Probably still in my management career. Um it can probably be the flip of that. in my life because. if I fear of failing something, I won't.

approach it. And I I that's me. I don't. want that. You know, my wife will always. Christine jokes with me when we go. on holiday and you want to paddle board. or something. I'm like, I'm not going. near that cuz I know I'm going to fall. off a lot, you know. And so she'll laugh. at me. So I'm like, you paddle board, I'll lay on the beach or I'll lay on the. lilo or something like that. I actually. use the paddle board as a lilo. That's. like my That's the joke. But it in a. bigger sense in my life, you know, that. fear of failure is and as a it can. probably maybe. make me. not try things I should do. But in terms. of my football in career, the fear of.

failure was a huge driving force. I and. I don't think it's a bad thing because I. think there's a certain humility to it. And my mom would certainly have been a. driver of me as a young person to stay. stay humble, son. Stay humble. Never get. too high. Stay there and you'll be fine. in your own head. So I think I had a. real understanding of my weaknesses and. I thought, well, if I can work on these. constantly and then I started to see. results really step by step. Sometimes. you go back, you go forward a few. But I. I can certainly say looking back at my. career from start to finish, I didn't leave anything on the table in.

terms of work ethic and training. You. know, and I don't want to sound like an. absolute machine. There'll be days when. you get older where you come off it a. bit or you. you start to find life affects you in. different ways. But I I when I look at. my peers in football, um I certainly had a training ethic that. at least did right at the top where the. you know, others can say the same maybe. But I felt that. I mean, that's the the Harry Redknapp. quote. He says that. um during his career um he never met. anyone that trained as hard as Frank. He. would be out there in on a winter's day.

practicing shooting for hours, left. foot, right foot, etc. etc. That fear of failure though, I I can see. how it becomes a driving force and makes. you stay out there on a winter's day, left foot, right foot, and then leaving. no stone unturned. But with all these. things, there comes there comes a more a. a cost on the other side of the coin, right? Mhm. And you I mean, you talked about the. paddleboard thing, which is that like. kind of. if I don't do it, then I won't fail. But. one of the things that I was assuming is. that it would also make you quite a a. chronic over-thinker. Yeah. Because I think people that have that. fear of failure, they try and think.

their way. through a situation before it happens. Yeah. Typically, what is the cost of being. that having that fear of failure? Um. well, the over-thinking thing is maybe a. cost, and I think it can be a positive, too. But I think it can be quite taxing. on yourself, you know, for anyone who. thinks like that. And. you know, sometimes I would I I've tried. to. make myself, you know, not an. over-thinker. However you do that, I. don't know, because I've not found a. solution to that one, because. um I think it's when you are that it's.

in you. So, um probably the the the the. negative or downsides have been probably. a bit taxing on myself. But I think you. learn to live with that, too. And I. think you understand it. I think it's um. something that I'll never master, and um. it can probably cause you into. over-complicating situations. Like. you're saying about I don't want to get. into that, but if you do get into. something and you really over-think and. you have to get into something, I now try and step back and simplify and. say, "Stop over-thinking it. Simplify. it." Because for me, anything in life,

if you can simplify the basics, you. probably get quicker to the solution. So, um. that one's just a struggle that I put up. with. But as I say, I think it's just. part of my makeup. If I wasn't an. over-thinker, if I didn't have that sort. of obsessive, sort of perfectionist. training drive, I wouldn't have got to where I got to, because I was not Lionel Messi who has. this God-given talent that's there. Wherever my talent was on the spectrum, I needed to push it and I constantly. tried to. How do you enjoy the process if you're. overthinking?

I weirdly like. I've really grown to like the stress of. what it brings. And that's And that. that's You might start thinking I'm a. strange person. I don't know, but I. loved. stressful training, you know, to put on. a physical side for instance. I loved. like that feeling of like almost feeling. sick on a pre-season run or, you know, really intense training sessions. I I. really enjoyed that. Maybe not always in. the moment, but you know, when you get. to the end of it you go, "F- I got. through that and it was so intense and. hard." And maybe in life sometimes I set. myself challenges and maybe I I'm making.

it more complicated than I should, but I. don't mind that stuff and that's. probably when I was started off talking. about that relax when you're with your. children. I think I'm I'm still. um juggling that one and I and I think. that probably a lot of people are. I. don't know. I think you know, being. overthinker is not something unique to. me. It's completely everywhere. Um. but I don't I don't know what else to. say and that's what I am. That that that enjoying the the pain. like the pre-season run if you feel sick. then you feel good about yourself. Yeah. Why? I don't know. I mean I I went to the gym.

this morning and I really didn't want to. go and I'd walk the dog and my time. limit's getting shorter. I was like, "I'm going to go in. I don't want to go. in. I'm going to go in cuz I know the. buzz that I'll get off afterwards." And. that's kind of my drug and it always has. been and you know, it probably starts. from all those early days of you know, you must work hard. You must push. yourself. You must be as fit as you can. be and it probably just stuck and it's. probably a a little bit of a life for. me. Um. but I do I do thankfully I I. I I enjoy the stress of hard work and. physical work less now I've finished. You know, now it's more to.

not get too unhealthy and unfit, whereas. when I was. training and playing, even when I finished playing for a. couple of years, if I went for a 5K, I. need to beat my 5K PB. I have to try and. beat it. Now, when I do a 5K, I'm just. going to complete it. Do you know? And. I'm completing it in like 20 or 30. seconds less. So, I've I've dropped that. one slightly, and maybe I transfer it. into other parts of my life, I guess. Quick one before we get back to this. episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your. time. Two things I wanted to say. The first. thing is a huge thank you for listening.

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going to deliver the guests that you. want me to speak to, and we're going to. continue to keep doing all of the things. you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to. the episode. When you when you finished your. footballing career, you know, there's many options you had. Punditry. I mean, I'm just talking about the. typical paths that footballers Sometimes. they just go into business. A few of. them go into coaching and stay in. football, but you you made the decision. to stay in football. Mhm. Why? And was there anything else that was. tempting you? Well, I well, I I did punditry for a. year. So, I spent a year working mainly.

on BT and doing some different things. BBC, I did a few bits and uh and I. really enjoyed it. It was great. I was. working a lot with Rio Ferdinand, Steven. Gerrard. Um Jake Humphrey, he had him. recently. And just really good people. And and it was like a step in the game. and a step I've retired, so I can do. other stuff. You know, the life of a. pundit is, you know, much easier than a. manager. We all know that. So, I kind of. put my eggs in both baskets at that. point. I did that and I did my coaching. badges. And I wanted to kind of see how. I felt a little bit. And I didn't want.

to be a manager in my 20s. When I got to. my 30s, I was like, "Oh, that's. interesting. People, managers, what how. what are they dealing with?" I just. thought about myself in my 20s more. Um and then when I finished, I did my. coaching badges, I started to quite like. it and then I got an offer out of the. blue to go and manage Derby, Derby. County. The owner, Mel Morris, kind of. went out on a bit of a limb. He was. speaking to Harry Redknapp, who's my. uncle. Harry said, "Let's speak to Frank." We. We sat for 2 hours in Chelsea in a hotel. and he offered me the job. And it was like um.

uh Christian has a saying and it's like. jump and the net will appear. Mhm. And we sat in my front room and I was. like. you know, I'm doing my coaching badges, but this is a proper job. I'm going to. Derby. This They've got some problems. and it's going to be a difficult job, but whatever as all jobs are. Uh and I jumped. Why? Um. that inner probably drive that I have, that inner desire. I you know, it wasn't. something that I I am an overthinker, so. that probably made that process of those. couple of days where I had to make a. decision really intense. But at the same time I I like a.

challenge. I love a challenge. And as. much as I enjoyed punditry, it was. you know, it it's it's challenging. You. want to do it well and you want to do it. like, you know, the top boys do it. You. have to put everything into it and do it. really well. Um but I. I was want I wanted more. I wanted to. to get on the grass. I wanted to work. with players. I wanted to try and. improve players. I wanted to see if I. could do it. It's probably more, if I'm. honest, probably can I do it and can I, you know, do something. And I was. probably naive at the time because the. minute I walked into Derby, I was like, "Wow, this is different. You know, I've.

got hold of I am now holding the meeting. rather than one of the 25 players. sitting listening." And as much as you. can think, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that." The. minute you walk in and you see those 25. faces and then you walk to to say hello. to Janette, who's your secretary and. this one and the player liaison. I'm. like, "Oh, Have I got Have I got to manage all this. as well?" And you do. You have to sort. of, you know, you have the building is. yours to kind of set the tone. So, that. first year, some of it was good. You. know what? I think sometimes in. management, a great manager said to me. me this. He said it and he was old he's old. He.

was old. And he said to me, "I think I. was a better manager when I was young in. many, many ways." He said, "Because when. I as I got older, I started to really. sort of overthink things and become a. little bit more cynical. And you know, you kind of go over these things. When I. was young, I'd just make decisions and I. was kind of free to do it. Now, I think. there's a balance to that. Experience is. obviously a clear. and clearly help as you go along. You. learn from mistakes. But I I understood. his point when he said that cuz I walked. into Derby fresh. And I made a lot of mistakes cuz you you. always will. But I also had a a. freshness and a balance and a a feeling.

inside me that was kind of I want to. take this on. And even though there's. moments of fear, you know, that kind of. when you feel like a bit of impostor. syndrome, should I be doing this? And. you got to hide it. Like I remember. having the whistle for the first day in. front of in the training pitch going, "I'm going to blow this at the end of. training." And I've been used to hearing. coaches This sounds so stupid. I've been. used to hearing coaches go, "End of the session. Stop." I was like, "What kind of whistle am I?" I didn't. want to do like a little. I don't know what I'm doing. You know, that. So, let alone like I've. got to pick a team and set the tactics. and set the tone. I was All those little.

things. And I think every. If they're honest, I I think, you know, people in business yourself have all had. those moments the most simple things. where you're sitting there going, "Wow, that little basic thing that I didn't. consider is now in my head.". So, I had a lot of those. And it was you. know, we got to the playoff final. We. got to Wembley. We lost a a final. against Aston Villa to get to the. Premier League. And I was so. disappointed for the club at Derby and. the owner who'd given me, you know, put. everything into me. And we'd had a. really good year and got there. And and. we lost it. But in terms of that first. year of management, yeah, my drive took.

me into it. And it was just a huge. learning curve. And it was a really. enjoyable year. Impostor syndrome. That I mean, that's. somewhat linked to I guess your fear of. failure. Mhm. Have you How How does We talk a lot. about impostor syndrome on this podcast. because it's it's a it's a two it's a. double-sided thing. On one hand, you. have that feeling of which I can recall. when I became a dragon on Dragon's Den. and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and. Deborah Meaden. Peter Jones has been. there for 21 seasons since the the. beginning. Deborah Meaden's been there. for 17. And I feel like I've just walked. into the TV. Like your little whistle. thing was me like, "How do I say I'm.

out?". Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um but being at peace with that, like. how did you How have you dealt with that. in your career? Because you went from. being a pundit to managing a club that. was trying to get promotion to then. Chelsea. These are huge leaps forward. Yeah. Huge leaps forward. Um I think uh I probably managed to get. coping mechanisms along the way. that have uh I've put that to the side. And in And in simple sense, I've become much more confident in. myself. Um.

away from work away from work actually, at home, much more content in myself. Again, it probably comes back to being. really settled in relationship. I'm 45. now, just turned. Um but in the workplace as well, I've. um that first year I remember feeling it. a lot. And when I moved to Chelsea, like. it should be a huge move. It's a huge. jump to the Champions League club. Chelsea. Even though I knew the club. very well, it was a huge jump to deal with players. of a different stature, etc. Um but I. found that imposter syndrome thing much. less. And I had just had coping. mechanisms where I could kind of just go.

"Okay, you're you're you're nervous. taking this meeting because you're a bit. out of your comfort zone. You've got to. be critical of a player. So, you're. going to go in on someone. You're going. to show a video of the game the other. day." And it's like, "That's That's not. a comfortable thing to do always.". And I just probably have found. mechanisms to be able to go, "Right, you. almost go into the character." And I. don't I don't want to sound like an. actor too much, but you go, "No, I'm. just going to go into it." And the more. I think you do that, um the better you. can be at coping with that thing. And. then you just kind of also have to get a. realization that you know, you can feel. a bit like that. You can feel a little.

bit like, "I'm out of my comfort zone.". Like you can make mistakes. I think. showing that you can make a mistake in. front of a group of players. is not the worst thing. You know, they're there to Like the players will. get it. You make the smallest mistake, one of those 25 at least is going to go, "What about when he said that?" You. know, but I think you've got to come to. peace with that. And you can even joke. about it after the event cuz you'll keep. making them. So, I've probably come. come to terms with being able to deal. with that side of it, I think. I am I I was thinking then as you're. speaking actually about. my experience being a dragon. And when. one of the things I've always wondered.

about players when they go from being a. player to a manager, and especially when. they've been managed under a legend of a. manager. So, like I was thinking about. Ole. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Sir Alex. Ferguson. How hard is it to like be yourself. versus be the successful manager that. you saw win? Like, because even when I. became a dragon, I think for the first 2. years for sure, I was. trying to be a dragon, not being Steve. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a that's a journey, but. do you understand the question I'm. asking?

get it. I get asked it a lot, and I'm. not in the not in exactly the way you. get asked it, but I get asked it by. football journalists who say, "So, what. did you take out of all your managers. you played and all this stuff?" And, you. know, just to jump to one would be Jose. Mourinho. It's a good one to jump to. because he had a huge effect on my. career, as many did, but he came and. probably elevated me in my playing. career to a different level. And what I. learned from Jose, and as I then went on. to manage his after that, was that the. the thing that impressed me about Jose, there was a real authentic nature to. him. Like, when he was self-confident,

overconfident, kind of brash Jose, he. that's him, you know, that was him. And. you know, maybe he's playing up a bit. now and again, but I saw him behind the. scenes. And then when I've worked with other. managers that maybe were probably. striving to be something like that, and. I think after Jose there was a there. were a generation of managers that were. a bit like, "Okay, I'm going to wear. this I'm going to wear this scarf, and. I'm going to tie it like I'm wearing you. know, or or act a bit kind of, you know, say those things he used to say or does. say.". Um and I didn't I didn't buy it as such. And even from outside when you're.

watching a manager, you know, you have. that impression. So, I think probably. yeah, you go, "Okay, can I take things. from all these managers?" From my. journalist question, yeah, I did from. Sir Alex, not from others, blah blah. blah. But when you come to it, you have to be. yourself because you get found out. And. you're you're probably right, in my. early days I also did that. I did my. first meeting at Derby again was like, "Right, I'm a next player, so anyone who. wants to knock on my door, come and see. me and I'll you know, I'll tell you the. truth and we'll have it out or you know, I'll give you the answer that you want.". And I remember like the first 3 weeks, they kept knocking on the door. I was like I was like I had to do.

another meeting. So lads, if you're. going to knock on my door, come to me. with like facts of why you should play, you know, how's your training, you know, come with something. I don't want you. just like I didn't play on Saturday like. Monday morning there's like five on the. door knocking. And you know, open policy in the door is good, but at. the same time it was like those were. like learning curves for me. Like I. probably said that. that phrase because I felt I needed to. say it. Right, yeah. You know what I mean? Like cuz there's a. player it's a really it's a really cool. things to apply. I want the manager to. be able to speak to me all the time. And. when I said it, I was like saying what I. thought I should say. And then you know, you learn a little lesson, you know, my.

door hopefully is still open now, but at. the same time I was probably playing the. part of a manager. Um and then you kind. of go what's real to me here, you know, like do I have to say that? Is there. another way of saying it or whatever? And that kind of brings me to a question. which is wouldn't it therefore have been. great for you to go and learn those. lessons when the stakes weren't so high? Um. Because even the stakes are super high. at Derby because you're you're figuring. out Frank the manager there. Yeah. And. sometimes you don't want to be at the. poker table playing with real money. Yeah.

Until you've learned. But but that's my life. You know, I I. know what you're saying and I think as a. as an as a I think I I think I can say. this. I think as an English ex-player. Steven Gerrard, others that have played. at a high level, you know, played 100. times for our country etc. I think play. the the the the the culture in this. country is the sort of say, "Right, now. you're a manager, go and earn your. stripes there because being a player of. that level doesn't mean you're going to. be a manager." So I think that could. have been a route where you can kind of. get a lot of play. Well, fair play, he. went down to you know, division two and. he's showing what he's doing and there's.

a process. The the reality is that path wasn't for. me, you know, and Mel Mel Morris asked. me to do the take the Derby job was a. question. Yeah, challenge, yes please, I'll take the challenge. You know, when. I had 1 year there and Chelsea came to. me, was a difficult time, they had a. transfer ban. You know, Eden Hazard was. leaving, it was a real transition, young. players, what's going to be there next. year? I think probably some big managers. had turned it down, I know that. So, it. was like, yeah, you know what? Challenge, I'll take it. So, you know, I. don't want to try and recreate the past. I think, why didn't I do that? Because,

you know, I've managed in four years of. management, I've had some experience. And for all the, you know, you'll always. get criticism, you know, you leave. Chelsea, people will criticize you. You. go to Everton, you stay up, you get. relegated, people will criticize you. But at the same time, I'm I am resilient. enough to deal with all that stuff now, and that's probably been probably the. beauty of having a long career in. football. And so, my my thing is, I can manage. Derby, I can go and manage Chelsea, and. do it to a good level as well, because. I've had successes as well as when it. hasn't gone so well. I mean, that's the. modern-day manager. So, I think I.

probably crammed in a lot of work in. four years. And and working at a. high-end level with players that will. test you and question you, cuz Champions. League players question you. So, it's. just my path. The um. I mean, that's it. So, Champions League. players questioning you. Mhm. You don't ever assume that happens. I. mean, I I don't know a ton about what. goes on in the foot in the room, but. Yeah, no, I think what what when I say. that, I think in um. the modern-day player, particularly, I. think that in in previous eras, it. probably would have been more vocal and,

you know, but now the modern-day player. have a good understanding of the game. A. lot of them have been coached in. academies very, very well to a high. level. Uh when they get to the top, they also. when you when you, you know, are setting. out tactics, they they'll have questions. for you. And and I I and you have to buy. into that, because, you know, you the. reality is what you want is them to. understand what you want, or sometimes. they say something, you go, "Okay, we. might change that, you know, or whatever. it might be." And I think when you get. to the to the top level in football, you. have to understand that that's there. Now, there's a they have to understand.

you're the boss, and you have to make. that very clear. Um but at the same. time, there will be lots of players that. will challenge you. "What what do you. mean by that, boss?" Come to you What. What But what about if that happens? You. know, and you get a lot more of that. And you I remember reading Pep Guardiola. once said that even if you don't know. the answer, pretend that you know the. answer. going to say that, yeah. And you know, so you there is a version. of that because, you know, I mean, you're getting things thrown at you. sometimes. It's like, you know, football. is an active game. And I think sometimes. in the modern day we look at the, you. know, on Monday night football, you see. after the event, you know, they should. have done this or people are imagining.

what um. you know, Pep Guardiola or Jürgen Klopp, or fantastic coaches are doing, and it. must be this amazing complicated thing. For sure, they're amazing coaches. But. it's an active game. So, if you can give. a good message, then the rest is down to. the players at the same time. So, you. just have to prep them as well as you. can, but they will they will challenge. it. Mhm. That that that that got me thinking. about when I sat with um Jamie. Carragher, and he was telling me about. all the managers he'd had and um above. him when he was playing at Liverpool. And then hearing from all the United. players, Nani and Evra and and Gary and.

Rio about what Sir Alex was like and. and then reading through all of all of. the managers that you've worked under. I. mean, there's so many of them from José. to Ancelotti. Um. So many of them. I mean, there was one. period at where I mean, the managers. were being sacked every 6 months, it. feels like at Chelsea. Um. And the thing I garnered from all of. them is that there is actually not a. successful blueprint to being a. successful manager. There's not like a. blueprint. There's not a way to be a. successful manager. Some of them are. tacticians, some of them are man. managers. Is that accurate? It's very accurate. I I agree with that.

Um. And uh Chelsea is a bit a bit of a. unique example because in my time there, they changed manager a lot, as you say. And I don't think that's the most. productive way to to run a. a business in an ideal way in terms of. football because in an ideal way, you. kind of go, "We trust in this manager. Let's work with it. Here's the idea. We're going to go with it." And of. course, it's the prerogative of the. owners to change that. What we did have. at the time was a fantastic unit within. the dressing room of high talent, high. personality that that led the dressing. room. So, we had a great team and a.

great squad. And And when I say that, we. had a spine of players of John Terry, myself, Petr Cech, Didier Drogba, Ashley. Cole. I could go on. And they were. personalities that sometimes would. clash. But we knew our place. We knew we. could rely on him. I knew that I would. run for him and he'd run for me. And we. also had high talent of a player that. would Didier Drogba would score in every. final pretty much. So I think we kind of. like bridged that gap of changing. managers. Um and so I think when you come back to. the the question of, you know, great. managers, I think sometimes it's um it's.

the case of compromising with with what. you're working with. You have to get the. people skills right. And that's the. first thing I learned as a manager of. the difference from playing is that you. have to deal with people. You got to try. and inspire every player within that. group and inspire the collective. So. every player will have a different. motivation. It might be money for one. It might be I want to be the best. striker in the world. It might be I want. to be in front of him cuz I don't like. him. Whatever that is, you try and tap. into. And I think the greatest of managers, in. my opinion, and I played under, as you say, a lot, and I'm trying to be one, is.

they give you something that you believe. in, that you can strive for, and you all. buy into. And it's And it's a And. sometimes it's a messy process. You. know, you watch Man City lift that. treble just now, and you look Listen to. the Champions League. There will be so. many things that we don't know behind. the scenes. This player's unhappy. Pep. had to do this. La la la la la. All. these things that come together and give. you that amazing moment. And I had that. as Chelsea as a player. And so if it's. to to for you to say, "Go on, tell me. what a great manager is." And me to go, "Here's an answer for you in 1 minute.". It's like impossible to say.

Man management, that's what all the. United players said about Sir Alex. Um. it's the only thing that they all are. completely agree on. They would say he. was the best man manager. And um an. inconsistent leader, which is an. interesting concept. And what I mean by. inconsistent leader is he would treat. Gary in a different way to Nani, to. Evra. And they all told me these. stories. And Rio as well told me about. when. um Sir Alex brought that bottle of. whiskey to his ill grandfather's. bedside. And Rio doesn't know how he. knew the favorite brand of whiskey, and. how he knew his grandad was ill. Yeah. Gary told me he used to tap him on the.

shoulder and say, "Think about your. father your grandfather's shrapnel, which is still in his shoulder when you. go out there today." That kind of. bespoke, tailored approach to. leadership, which is seems to be Sir. Alex Ferguson's um highest accolade. Sure. And I and I think that runs into. the modern day that we get very caught. up in in tactics, and rightly so. The. game's moved on from those days. tactically, but those people and and you. you'll know yourself, you know, inspiring people and as you say, to be. bespoke and kind of individualize it and. look within the group and have moments. cuz, you know, if you ask me about my.

career, you go like, "Frank, what do you. remember out of those 20 years?" Like, "Would you remember the meeting where. Jose, you know, played you a bit higher. up?" I wouldn't. He'd say, "Do you. remember the time that Jose said those. words to you that inspired you?" And it. could be like one sentence. I got, "Yeah, I remember that." Do you know. what I mean? Like, things that stick. with me that I remember that made me go, "I'm going to I'm going to run for this. man. He's going to make me better." You. know, and I had that. And I I think so, what you just said there about Sir Alex. Ferguson, I think the great managers. have. You look at and they have it in. different styles. Pep Guardiola, Jurgen. Klopp, everyone will have a different. style of that. And that's a huge part to.

their success, I think. What are you like as a manager? If you had to do like a self-assessment. I think you got you got to ask somebody. else that. I don't know. Um. I don't know. I try and be. uh close to the players. As I say, my. open door thing. But at the same time, I think I I try. and find a balance. I I think the. important thing for me was when I became. a manager was to not expect anybody, any. player, to see it how I saw it or train. how I trained or whatever, you know, for. good or for bad. And you have that's I.

think a bit of a skill, which, you know, Sir Alex probably had perfectly. So, I. try and be as close to the players. I. try and learn all the time. I'm a coach. I want to coach on the pitch. I think my. biggest pleasure. is coaching and improving players, and. particularly young players. And I've had. the. you know, the the fortune to work with. some really good young players. At. Derby, I had Mason Mount, Harry Wilson, Fikayo Tomori. And then at Chelsea, obviously Tammy Abraham, extra ones, and. Everton, Anthony Gordon, etc. So, I. think. they are the real sponges that are a. real pleasure to work with, and I love.

that part of it, being able to speak to. them. And you do find, and it's a. reality, and I remember being an older. player, a bit more cynical. When you're. a younger player, you're like come. They're They're like a blank canvas, and. you can, you know, push them and try and. push them in that. So, I'm probably. quite intense with the younger players. Um I try and be as I say inclusive in. that, and I'm I'm always trying to. learn. Um and and try and just trying to. be me. It's It's a hard answer that one. I think you'd have to ask, you know, maybe a member of staff or a player. I'd. pick the right player cuz you'd probably. get different answers because when you.

work with. I worked at Chelsea recently with 30. players. I pick You pick 11 for a game, and like eight subs. And the subs I. outfield subs, the subs don't really. like you cuz they're not starting, let. alone the other 10, you know? So, it's a. really hard balance with the modern. squad to to get there, but you have to. try and make it inclusive because if. you're going to get anywhere, you've got. to go all together, and. that was one of the problems for being. at Chelsea this season. 30 players is is. it's not possible to manage that. On the other This is maybe this is even. more difficult question. What are you. trying to work on then? What are the the. areas of as a leader, as a manager.

you're trying to work on? Cuz I can. think of for myself, I can think of a. number of areas where I go, "Do you know. what? That is still somewhere where I. have a recurring. when I reflect in hindsight, I go, "Fuck. I I I need to get better here.". What is that for you? Quite a few things I would say because. um. the overthinker thing comes in again, and I'm I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so. you know, I always want to try and. improve. um. you know, my tactical and and the. personal touch and those things, but I. think uh when I came away from Chelsea, I realized I needed to delegate time.

better. That was something I was. certainly not great at. I've got You. have your staff for a reason. They're. there to support you, and at times. they'll be better than you at certain. things. So, give them it, you know, and. give them that. You obviously oversee. that thing, and I probably spent a lot. of time um trying to be across. everything, whereas really I probably. could have come back from that and save. my own energy. So I think I'll certainly. try and improve that side. I did between. Chelsea and Everton for sure to try and. save that. I can um. uh. be pretty over reactive sometimes if I.

see things I don't like in terms of and. when I say that it's always effort or. standards. And I think I am that's one of the. things I'm biggest on is that you know. if you're going to make a mistake in the. game I've got no problem with that. Um if you're going to not run for your. teammate if you're not going to try and. throw the week with an idea that when I. train on Monday that's got a direct. relation to what Saturday's going to. look like. If that feeling isn't there. then I probably can either get upset. with the player or maybe kind of. distance the player. And I think when you're working with a. group you have to be careful of that one. because not every player has your.

mentality but so you have to either try. and bring them up to the party. or if not then they're going to have to. not be there if you're going to have. success as far as I see it. And that. sounds really harsh but it's one of. those things where you go if you can. work in a in a in a team and you're. going to take it it to exactly where you. want it to be. out of that squad of 25 if you've got. that kind of I remember managers would. say this you have you know that there's. your six or seven you know you're going. to get every day. They're going to try. and they're going to come in they're. going to be so active every day. You're. going to have the middle group of. somewhere in the middle you going to.

have the ones that maybe I'm just coming. to training. You know or you know I'm. not I'm a bit sore today. You know that. and that sounds simplistic to say. but you have to try and work if you want. to work in a forward direction and go. okay those six are with me right you try. and guard at them. Those are the ones. that can kind of pass the message. Those. ones in the middle okay can we keep. pushing and working between me and the. staff to try and improve them. And then. the ones that are there come on can we. help them can they come with us if not. you have to speak to the club and that's. where the club has to be aligned to go. okay if you want to go in that direction. and we're with you okay we'll work that.

out and that becomes a recruitment or. players leaving the club. I mean that's. you know that's that's the reality of. how it has to be. And that's the reality of business as. well. Um. uh. I've just finished writing this book and. it talks about these three lines and. basically says if everybody in Think. about a person in your team and if. everybody in the team represented their. cultural values, right? Which is what. you're talking about with your six. disciples there. If everybody. represented the cultural values, would. the bar would the overall bar be raised. or lowered? And you'll have some people. who would Imagine if everyone was like.

them, like a Frank, you know, a Frank. Lampard or a John Terry, how high that. the cultural values would be raised. Then you have other people where if. everyone was like them, you'd be relegated. Yeah. And and what to do with those three. cohorts of bar raisers, maintainers, and. bar lowers. And that's kind of what I. That's a good way of putting it. I mean, I And I think the. I think the bar raisers can take some. time to raise the bar. But the bar lowers. can get you very quickly. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of my experience because. that kind of when that kind of that.

toxicity or whatever it is, you know, like this Why are we doing this. training? Why do we have to do or. whatever, that kind of negativity which. can slip in, can be really contagious. And then in a winning sport, and as much. as we're talking here about great. managers, winning is is everything, you. know. And it's that's obviously relative. to if you're a Man City or an Everton, like Everton will win kind of 35, 40% of. games at best at the moment. And you. know that. So, you know that they're. going to be 65 or so percent of weeks. where it's not that great. The bar. lowers can go and they lower it quickly.

Whereas, you know, if you can get the. raisers to take control, um then they. that then I think generally you can kind. of get there. So, it's a really. important thing. That that's probably. one of the interesting things that as I. say, the the transition from player to. manager, trying to get that because if. you whether you were one of the bar. raisers or you're in the middle group or. the lower group, when you become a. manager, it doesn't matter what you. were. You've got to kind of get that get. the script of what it is and kind of. just push. Um so, that that's something. that I think we're all. trying to improve on everything called. the time. And coming away sometimes give. you nice time to to have perspective and.

just kind of go I'm going to put it in. line a little bit and it looks a bit. different to what I thought before that. experience. Yeah, know, this is I mean, I guess this is why some of the the. greatest managers of all time they hold. on to their Gary Nevilles and their, you. know, their disciples. Yeah. And I I spoke into Gary about this. Gary. said to me, in fact, when we were. filming Dragon's Den recently, he said, "For those last two years, Sir Alex kept. me there because of the my impact in the. dressing room.". Yeah. "Not my impact on the pitch, but on the. dressing room. I could keep keep the. standard high." Um, in the modern world, I was reading the. stats, managers are getting fired.

quicker than ever. Sure. And it almost it must be so difficult to. establish authority when the players are. aware, um, that the manager's going to be the one. to be taken out if things don't go well. Yeah. In business, it's not like that. Right. as a CEO, because I own the company and. I am the manager. Yeah. So, if there's if there's behavior. underneath me that's toxic and. contagious, Sure. I can act. Yeah. The center of authority is with me. Yeah. Whereas, it seems like in a club, the. center of authority is really like the. chairman, the owner. Yeah. Um, sometimes the manager manages.

manages to get that, but in the modern. world, we don't let managers last long. enough to build that authority. No. And that's the tough world that it. is, and I think, you know, you probably. have to earn the right. as a manager to get to a club, maybe. when you look at the perfect models. right at the top, you know, and. Manchester City is a good one to talk. about. Now, I worked with the City. Group. I had one year playing there. And I could see when I was there, they. hadn't arrived at that point, but I. could see with the stability from above. and how it run and the vision, it was. like, we're going to get they were going. to get somewhere because they had a. great structure. And it wasn't like it was going to get.

pulled and pushed and pulled for, you. know, a small period of time. It was. like, we're going to get there. And then. they hired Pep. You know, they had a not. difficult first year, but the first year. was kind of him finding his way. I need. this, I need this. And then he's. fantastic coach and they have great. players. But if you don't have that aligned thing. where, as you said, the most important. person at the club in the modern day, in. my opinion, is the owner. And it is the. structure at the top because they really. they set the tone. Maybe it's. financially, uh, maybe it's with the. sporting directors in recruitment. because you'll be as good as the players. you recruit. A great manager, again, I I.

don't want to sit here and drop names, it said to me it was when we finished at. um, the first my first season at. Everton, we just stayed up skin of our. teeth. And he was like rang me to say. congratulations. He went, "Frank, don't. rest. 80% of your work for next season. will be done in the next month." So, it. was recruitment. So, like 20% will be. what you do next season and now the 80%. is like bringing the right players. So, I think, you know, like that that. alignment as as Kip saying there is. something that, you know, if you can get. um an owner and there are great owners. and there are great sporting directors.

and recruitment and the manager and the. manager is so, you know, critical to it. But, when you look at last season, 13. managers left their club. I think it's. 13 out of 20 clubs. And you're talking. about, you know, Antonio Conte and you're talking about. Thomas Tuchel, you know, managers that. had huge successes. It shows you that the landscape's. changed to the point where the manager. will be culpable. And I think you have. to come you have to be at peace with. that. But, you have to try and get to. the point very quickly where you have. success. And that's tough. Because. winning is in the modern world of social.

media and reaction is like, "Get him. out." You know, "Get the next one in.". You know, sometimes maybe they're right. Maybe the manager is culpable. But, other times there are there are many. things. And to come back to your. original point about players and those. stalwarts and the the Gary Nevilles and. the James Milner at Liverpool in the. last whatever years, you know, people on the outside I think it's very. easy to look at the superstars, the Mo. Salahs and that. I I can guarantee you. and I know this firsthand from speaking. to people, people like James Milner and. Jordan Henderson. have absolutely set the tone of that. club for the last whatever years during.

great success. And if you don't have that kind of those. drivers within that top six or eight, I think it's very hard to sustain it. success or get success. And again, back. to my Chelsea days, we had that. naturally. And we were actually quite. diverse. So, it was like John Terry was. like the real captain like heart on his. sleeve. You could see it in him every. day. I was probably like more quiet, but. like a a trainer and standards and. myself and trying to hope that that. would bring people with us. Didier was. just so charismatic from the Ivory Coast. and kind of brought in, you know, that.

section of the dressing room and he took. a Petr Cech spoke five languages. Ashley. Cole was such a nice lad and he's you. know, best left back the country's. probably ever seen. So, we had this. amazing group. Mhm. And like if others aren't going to. follow that, then very quickly it was. like. you're not going to make it. Regardless. of the manager change, it's like you. won't you won't survive the dressing. room and that's kind of how it was. I it reminded me of a quote that I've. said on this podcast before, which is. when the culture's strong, the new. people become the culture and when the. culture's weak, the culture becomes the. new people. Right. Because when you have those that core of.

disciples, someone coming in, they'll. they'll stand out so much if they don't. fit in with you, DDA, Frank, etc. That. they'll instantly be expelled. But when. the culture's weak, someone will come in. and they'll actually influence the. dynamics and that's when you really, from my experience in business, is when. you're really, really screwed. No, that's interesting cuz I think in. football as well, cuz it's so topical, it's there's so much conversation around. it. They know I managed at Chelsea for. seven weeks, I think I did. And I spoke. a lot about standards and I was about I. must say standards to him. I swear you. say it in every post-match. Yeah, I know.

and it wasn't like. not trying to be clever and go I'm just. going to this is my line out standards, but it was like it was very evident to. me when I walked in um because. you know. having worked at Chelsea as a as a coach. before and as a player, I I I do know. the standards. I do know that. And this. is not a direct criticism of the players. either because when I look at the. players' situations where they were and. I understood how it'd been a long year. I walked in on with 10 games to go. They'd been there for the whole season. and a lot of players were not playing. They were probably going to leave, which. we're seeing now. They whether they were.

going to leave or the club wanted them. to leave or they or hadn't been playing. with the previous managers. And I could see in training that it. wasn't the level wasn't enough. It. wasn't enough to go and get a result at, you know, whoever you might want to say. at. Brentford at home or at Real Madrid. It. wasn't enough and and I can say this now. cuz I said this to the players. And. again, it's not an individual criticism. of the players because I also when. you're trying to say you want to be a. manager, you have to have a a personal. understanding of like human nature. If. I'm a player that's not been playing for. the last 7 months and I'm think I'm.

leaving in 4 weeks time, I'm probably. going to struggle to motivate that. player. You know, I'm not I've got magic. wand to motivate that player. So, I. think it was that probably the my. biggest learning out of Chelsea was when. you talk about standards and culture. I. think people got he talks about his. standards, you know, what he talks about. his culture. And I you know, maybe I. have to catch myself on and not say. every interview, but at the same time it. was if you don't have a building block. of standards, then that winning culture. that everyone goes what's winning. culture? You go, well, let me I'll try and explain it to you, but it has to start with a basic. standard and which for me is always like.

train to a level where you're going to. push your teammate, he's going to push. you and then we're going to be as. competitive as you can be. We don't have. to win. Not every team can win. You. know, there's Manchester City pretty. much win the league every year at the. minute. So, what's success for everybody. else? For Brighton it's coming sixth or. whatever. For Newcastle it's like, wow, Champions League, that's huge success. So, everyone has a version, but my guess. is those teams that have over performed, out performed, they've got something. there which is a basic standard that. they just build on. And you know, to be. fair to Chelsea, they're in a position. now where.

that's needs to be worked on again. It's. a transitional time. That brings me to the quote you said. after your Newcastle game which was the. standards collectively have dropped. I. can be honest now because it's your last. game. I might not see them for some time. anymore. But low standards are a symptom. of something further upstream that's. happened. And we saw this at Manchester United. I'm a big Man United fan. I've seen a a. decade, 5 years of just like chaos where. we've got these. amazing players, but 1 + 1 = 1.5. We. call it diseconomies of scale. In great.

culture, 1 + 1 = 3. You know, where you can make great. average players together play amazing. the football of their lives. The. furthest upstream thing, where did the. standards start to slip? What is the. thing that happens in a club like. Chelsea in your experience when you went. back there that had caused that dropping. of standards which we now saw on the. pitch with your sort of 10 games there. Well, I think um. when I was tongue in cheek, by the way, when I said I'm not going to say them. again, because it was a bit like, as I. say, I wouldn't say I hadn't said it to. them, and I've said it a couple of few. times. But I.

the position of it was that, and I think. the biggest thing about the standards. thing was. the the size of the squad. It was the. the motivation of players that. um you're going to not play, or you're. out of the Champions League squad, or. these things like It's It's like asking, you know, one of you. I don't know, you you maybe love doing. this. This is This is like one of your. great ma- You know, I want to sit and. you want to speak to all these fantastic. people that you speak to. Like, thanks. for your prep, Stephen. Now, Peter Jones. is going to do it. You know what I mean? You'll be like, cheers. Do you know what.

I mean? How long are you going to go. with that? Yeah. So, I and I think in football that's it. is that's a challenge with 20 or so. players, which is the modern squad. But. with with Chelsea, it's got very big to. the point where it's just how I felt, where I can say, you know, I'm not. criticizing that player for a a dropping. standards. I want to try and get. something out of him, cuz I had a short. period. I want to try and get something. out of him. So, I would try, but then. when you actually look at it, you kind. of go, yeah, but he's had this for a. long time, where he's not playing. So, he's not now being competitive with that. player who is playing. So, that player. is pretty comfortable, too, because he's. not pushing him. So, you kind of get.

this thing where you're like, you know, we probably took it for granted in in. some of my better days at Chelsea, when. we were successful, of like this kind of. thing that works, you know? It wasn't. even a thing you said. You know, you. didn't have to sort of have a meeting. every day and go, you know, what are. standards, coach? You know, pie chart, and that's what that is. It was almost. like this is what we do. Mhm. And at the minute, sometimes, for. whatever reason, there's a transition of. maybe new ownership, you know, not. everything was perfect before the new. ownership. I was there before the new. ownership, as well. Like, to find. consistency as Chelsea would really. want, of winning Premier League titles.

and challenging, has been a good few. years now. So, I I think that getting. the squad right, um being able probably. a a fresh voice as a manager coming in. now, who's obviously a fantastic manager. with a great record, to come in and go, "No, no, no. This is the way." And now. the squad looks compact. You're going to. compete with each other and try and. create a great environment. Everyone. needs a great environment to have. success. You know, you cannot have a. success without team spirit and. togetherness. So, when I got there, I could just see. that that that that the the spirit and. the togetherness wasn't was not there. It was nothing bad, you know, like it.

was not bad to go for the week. I could. just see like you have to train elite to. be elite. You have to. And that's not. you know, on the Monday players play. every few days sometimes. When I say. that, it's not like show me how many. sprints you can do every day. It's like, "Okay, if we're doing prep tomorrow, give me that intensity of of thought. about what what this is for you. And let. me see it in your face." But then at. Chelsea when you did that, you had to go. right, "If I want to really focus on the. the 10 or 11 for tomorrow, that means I've got to have like 18. players over there." And you kind of saw. the body languages they walked off some.

of them that they were like, "Again.". Cuz they've been having it all season. some of them. So, on a on a human level, I completely understood. And in the end, it was like I came back here because. obviously this was an an opportunity to. come to to my club, you know, Chelsea, a. club close to my heart. But as soon as I. got in, I realized that probably I. thought, "You know what? 30 players I. can motivate in 6 7 weeks because it's. not like a long-term thing. I can come. in and be fresh.". Um but in terms of what when I came in, I've I noticed very quickly that some. players were probably thinking about. this season's going to peter out and.

what's the future going to look like. And that was a a difficult situation. You said. I never crossed my mind that the size of. the squad has such a big impact, but it. makes perfect sense because you need. that sort of healthy competition. And I. believe your first team was Was it 32. players? Yeah. Which is more than you're allowed. to register for the Premier League or. Champions League. So, you had this kind. of surplus of. A lot of players. A few A few are always. injured probably, you know, so that. comes down a bit, but it's a surplus and. it's a surplus of um.

the the the makeup of the squad is. international players generally. There. was a few There were a couple of young. players, but when you try and build a. squad, it would be like, this is you. know, this is my core kind of 15 or 16. and then you go and maybe these these. two experienced players that might not. need to play right away. And then we've. got these kids that are waiting and. they're like just happy to be there. They want to play. They're going to be. training and if you give them an. opportunity, they'll be like, but when. you have like international players in a. big number, then of course, you know, you're you're telling internationals. you've got to stay at home. It's not it's not easy. And you know, to. to have the conversation every Friday.

with them and get them lined up coming. in is also not easy for your own energy. Do you know what I mean? So I That's not. easy. I I don't care how what kind of. a man manager you are. Like it's like, next, you're not playing, okay. Next, you're not playing, you know, like. whatever you However you try and box. that up to a player, eventually they'll. probably go, I know I'm not playing. You. know, like stop telling me this Do. you know what I mean? So I think you. know, that that was an interesting. learning curve for me. Like an interim. job is is what it is. And I kept getting asked, you know,

people it was kind of frustrating me at. times like, are you finding this so. hard? Are you finding this so hard? I. was like, you know what? I'm back home. in a club that I love. You know, a. fantastic training ground. I'm doing. everything I can in this job to try and. improve it. But there were I knew behind. the scenes there were a lot of things. that, you know, myself and my staff, we. want to improve. We want to coach. We. want to. When you when you lack those basics, and. as I say, I. I think. there's an understanding at the club. that it has to change now. I think it. has to it has to change. Then if you. lack those basics, then it. it's really hard to get where you want.

to want to get to. What what How does that happen though? So there's 30 32 players and then. Chelsea spends more money than I think. anyone's ever spent in a in a window in. that sort of January window. You bring. in all of these players on these long. contracts, which I've never heard. before. I think it was like eight-year. contracts. And they're all like class. amazing individual players. Um is that a Is that because the the new. owner doesn't understand those dynamics. of football? Cuz that's what it had. seemed like for me. I thought. either this is a genius.

or an idiot. Yeah. You know, I don't I. don't want to criticize anyone like on a. personal level, but as a fan looking and. I go signing these players on eight-year. contracts, they're great players. spending all this money, the impact on culture when you just. throw stars in at such quantity. Yeah. It looked in it looked like inexperience. and naivety. I think that's um. that's understood now in terms of what. it's meant with those 30 players. And I. think you've seen that now and already I. think I've six, seven, eight players. have left. So, I think but the intentions are.

certainly good. I know that cuz I work. the owners gave me an opportunity to go. in there and I had a good relationship. with them. Their intentions to do a good. job at Chelsea are amazing. They want to. take the club and be the best, you know, they have great intentions. So, now I. think those younger players now with. um. a new voice, a new manager, the the. squad coming tighter, I think they'll. have a greater chance to show what. they've got anyway. And they're talented. players. And you know, I remember being. in Chelsea when Eden Hazard arrived in. preseason it was like, is this kid he.

was a bit lazy looking, you know, and he. was a bit kind of strolling around. Is. this kid definitely a And then that. first season it was like, oh no, he's. really good. And then on the second and. third season like, no, this kid's one of. the best players the Premier League's. seen or whatever. Thierry Henry, Didier. Drogba, like you can go through all. these players who are who are like. absolute legends. Now, if you're asking, you know, those five, six, seven players. to come in and hit the ground running in. a in a difficult moment for the club, it's understandable. So, I think as a. Chelsea fan, you know, you look at it. and kind of go, right, okay. But that. that is positive. There's talent there. Okay.

And it needs to be worked with. Now, I'm. sure that you can see the squad's. getting trimmed. And I as I can say, hand on heart, the intentions of the. owners is absolutely, you know, they. spent that money cuz they want to do. well. Now, if they're going to address. the situation a bit, that's that's their. strategy going forward. But I do think, you know, you'll see players like Enzo. Fernández, Mudryk, and these players. Madueke, young players, they're going to. develop and they're going to be big. players for the club. They they they you. have to get the structure right and. strategy right going forward. What's a. I think it's that adding like I don't. know, six or seven of these.

players all at once pretty much halfway. through the season. Mhm. um in a in a squad that's already. struggling to figure out who it is. Mhm. under Graham Potter. Um it begs the. question like who's doing the. recruitment here? Because at other clubs. it's a much more strategic It seems like. a much more strategic and intentional. and football driven approach to. recruitment. Whereas from what I saw at. Chelsea and I have actually spoken to. some people at Chelsea. Mhm. who are involved in recruitment, it. seemed like chaos. Yeah, I mean I I wasn't there for that.

period. Right. So that was in I I got there in April. and like so January was the last window. and obviously they spent last summer but. I think the. the the change of ownership and then. obviously some people moved on who were. in the hierarchy of the club and so. there was changing so there was a big. change of structure. So I think you have. to give. um some time and some leeway for the. process and I and that they certainly. now are sporting directors recruitment. people in there having worked with them. who are very talented, very hungry, you.

know, good to go and I think now it will. be. um up to them to to take the club. forward. They haven't signed bad. players. I think it's maybe the the. the strategy of bringing them all in at. that time, you know, looks a bit. excitable at the minute as in terms of. there's a lot of players for success but. I think probably there's a long game and. I think there's a plan. And I think. probably most. huge clubs like Chelsea have had a. version of what this period is. Manchester United mentioned there, Arsenal for quite a long time, Liverpool. for periods, you know, so I think um we.

have to give different I think to to. over judge now when I think they have. signed some good players would be to to. be over critical. I think at the moment. I think the the proof will be now how. these players develop once now it's. feels a bit more settled going forward. Mhm. I think that's I think that's all true. I think um. What's the optimal way for player. recruitment to happen in your opinion? Because I've you often hear about these. stories of where you know, there's an. owner will take charge of a club and. then they'll just decide who they want. Which is probably what I'd be like if I. was an owner. I think I would. I'd like Football Manager. I think I'd.

just buy who I who I want to buy, who I. think looks good. Um Manchester United. suffered with that. It felt like our. decisions were commercial decisions as. opposed to footballing decisions. Then. when Erik ten Hag's come in it feels a. bit more like it's football decisions. And what in your opinion and then I did. speak to um some people at Chelsea. because I actually went to I was invited. to uh sit with Richard Arnold and a. couple of Manchester United executives. and when we played Chelsea at Old. Trafford. I was in the director's box. Okay. So I sat with the like sport the new. sporting director at Chelsea. Yeah. Um and he said there's now two sporting.

directors I believe. Yeah. Um. so it's interesting to talk to them. Um. but what is the about the optimal way. for recruitment to happen in your. opinion? Well, I think um. with a with a you have to understand. what you want the. the philosophy and the identity of the. club to be. So. for instance, I think Manchester City. are quite firm in their the idea when. they. the Pep Guardiola's come in and the the. sporting directors have worked at. Barcelona previously with him that this. is how we want to play. This is the. manager that's going to deliver that. style. So here's how we recruit for that.

style. Chelsea's always been a bit different. for me. The the beautiful game that the. tiki-taka as you call it at Man City has. not been Chelsea style. It's been more. of a winning machine in a different kind. of way, you know. In in my day it was. more of a powerful team. that was probably we were good on the. eye, but we were not that kind of, you. know, pass pass pass. We were like. powerful and effective. So I think you have to understand what. you want to be. And and once you get to that point you. probably the first thing is to recruit a. coach that, you know, works within that. and then you know that's the kind of. coach you want because this is what you.

want to be. Those conversations are in. the interview process. And then once you get to that point, I. think the recruitment has to be joined. up depending on how active the owner. wants to be and I I. I. respect and appreciate active owners. It's their clubs, their prerogative. And then the sporting directors and the. um manager. And then obviously. recruitment which brings all the data. analysis into the picture and it has to. be joined up and it has to you have to. be all very confident by the time you. want to bring in a player that you're. going yeah, this is the player we want. to bring in and there's always one or. two or three options because you may not.

get target number one. But I think you. have to be able to recruit for the style. that you want to be. So the coach really. has to have a big buy-in to that as. well. But you as a coach in the modern. day you understand the process. I. appreciate being aligned and having. other people not just responsible for. who you're bringing in but also like. giving me something that I don't know. I'm not there sifting through the data. Uh you know, they have to show you that. data and here's the reasons why, the. videos, people that watch them and also. the personality of the player because. you know, not to say you're going to. sign, you know,

10 James Milners because their character. is amazing and their professionalism. But you need to know they're going to. come in in the dressing room who's going. to they're going to be good for the. dressing room and they're going to help. in terms of how you drive forward in. terms of their personality. One of the one of the key questions I'm. I want to answer and I wanted to ask you. today is like how would you have what. would have had to happen to avoid the. situation where you had that. unhealthy culture at Chelsea behind the. scenes in those when you came back in as. the interim. What would have what could. you have done to avoid that happening?

Say you're in the you know, if you were. you could in hindsight have a wand and. and correct things that were done. I get. the first point which was about smaller. squad size. Um. what else? What else avoids that? Man, from my from my first day in the. a you're a you're a you're you're a um a. genie. and you can knowing what you know about. the the what you inherited there, what. would have had to be done previously to. avoid you inheriting that? Smaller squad is the first thing that I. got. Yeah, smaller squad. I mean. some things are just a bit.

you know, like the the there are there. are phases, you know, and I think. Chelsea. um they won the Champions League. I. left. They won the Champions League like. three or four months after I left. And. at that point you kind of go, "Okay, where's the next move?" And you kind of. go, "How was recruitment then? How what. things work then?". And maybe some players left during that. period. Maybe in terms of recruitment. you wanted to bring in my maybe some. people be like the. the the future in terms of the I when I. was at Chelsea before I wanted to bring. in Declan Rice. I was like, "This this.

kid's going to be the the the captain of. Chelsea for the next, you know, 10. years." It didn't happen, but anyway. But I think in terms of those things. it's hard for me to sit here and kind of. dissect. you know, other people's work in that. period in between, you know, like I. would have maybe had an idea. It wasn't. my idea because I'd already left the. club. So maybe like when I came in it. was it's not it's it's really hard for. me to kind of. dissect all those moves, you know, I. came into what I came into. So, you. know, that's. I think I'd probably be a little bit. casual for me to kind of go, "They. should have done this." You know, like.

in high it's a hindsight one that's. Yeah, it's kind of me wondering just cuz. I've been a Man United fan and I've seen. that happen and I saw obviously Sir Alex. Ferguson leave. And then we just had. these 10 years of what I describe as. like confused chaos. And I'm trying to. figure out almost like how in a Sir Alex. Ferguson situation, how he we could have. avoided that if at all possible. I mean. it's such a big figure. That's that's difficult, isn't it? I. agree. I don't know enough about. Manchester United, but I do I I can. understand why after Sir Alex leaving. and also pivotal players were probably. coming to the end of their time.

at the same time as him leaving. To. replace that and keep moving forward, I. mean you can there might have been. mistakes in it's not my thing, but I can. understand why it feels like a long. period for a club the size of Manchester. United, but it just shows you that I. think that how cutthroat and fast-moving. this Premier League is because if you. come off the gas gas in terms of. recruitment or whatever or you have a. bad time climbing back up there. Like. people think, "Oh, yeah, you you know, you're Chelsea, you'll be in the. Champions League again next year." Or. Arsenal, you'll be there like Arsenal. had to work a long time to come back and.

challenge for the league last year with. a lot of work. And you know, people were. criticizing Mikel Arteta in the. beginning and now, know, they've worked. together and stuck together and. recruited really well and now they're. ready to go. So I mean it's not I don't. think we should expect even you being a. Manchester United fan or me having a. Chelsea head on that. Oh, next year it's. going to be great. Like it's everyone. else is moving forward too, you know so. When you get that call, the interim. call. Mhm. You've just left Everton. Yeah. Um. you're out of work.

Um Graham Potter's been released from. his responsibilities. What's going through your head when they. say we we want you to come back in and. and take a an interim manager role? If I was a fly on the wall and when that. phone call happens. Um you nearly were. Yeah, I was. We were going to do this. So I know yeah, I mean. I wasn't going to tell the story but. No, I I could tell it for you. I was coming. to meet you and I rang you to say sorry. I'm going to become Chelsea manager. That that meeting they you know people. arrived at my house that afternoon.

So. Well just to be clear you didn't tell me. that exactly. You said I can't come and. I can't tell you why. Then then I told you after. Yeah, that's. right. Yeah, but you told me after. But I'm not. an idiot so. I kind of inferred maybe that. Okay. So anyway I mean no, I think. probably that the it's it's normal that. I consider everything and you know, I. probably considered it as in. firstly it's a club very close to my. heart as I said before. Um a challenge of working and it was. like we had two games against Real. Madrid and we had the season to pan out.

A difficult run in so I was I was fully. aware of that. Um and. I know maybe like you know, I I do love. a challenge. If that challenge had been. probably any other club other than. Chelsea I probably would have said no. I. was very happy to be at home as such in. that period. I wasn't fighting to get a. job at that period. Um so it was probably a bit of head and. heart. Um I'm not sure what probably. heart probably was a bit more. substantial in this one than the head. because. I suppose if you look back again we're. in that hindsight position but you know, what were my ne- what were my positive.

outcomes? What were my negative ones? The minute we didn't get through against. Real Madrid, which probably a lot of. people would have bet on. Um, you're kind of into that zone of end. of season and what are you playing for. as a club like Chelsea and that's not. the normal Chelsea. You should be. playing for something. And at the in the. end we played for not not so much. And. of course another reason my motivation. come down. So I probably could have been. a bit more ahead of the game in that. Whether that would have changed my mind, I don't have a regret about doing it. I. went back there. If people from the. outside want to. um, you know, uh.

criticize or have a view on it from the. outside for six or seven weeks work, I've got no problem with that. I worked. at Chelsea before. I worked at other. clubs and you know, it's another. experience. It wasn't my. most favorite experience in my. footballing career. I won't lie, but. it's an experience and I have learned. out of it. Not so not so much, but I've. I've mentioned a few of the things. Not your favorite ex- experience. Did. you enjoy it, be honest? Um, I enjoyed the first few weeks. I. felt like I was back at Cobham. I know. so many people there. I was like into. the challenge.

In the middle bit, I probably started to. understand more that there's there's a. lack of, you know, what we've spoken. about. Um, and then in the last week we. we had Man City away, Manchester United. away and Newcastle at home as our. running. And I was like, okay, let's get. through this week cuz I could see that. the players were were ready for the. season to to finish. You know, like it's. it's. again, some of that I got on a human. level. Did that not hurt you to some degree. like cuz you love this club so much and. you're a winner. And if you see these. players have checked out, you you know,

it's not just they're checking out on. you as a manager, but they're checking. out on the club that you love. Yeah, as a general as a general it. didn't hurt me because. having worked in football for a period. I've been a player a long time. I've. seen a lot of these instances and I'm. not holding the players to my standard. as such. And and a lot of them I did. know the back story and the side. stories. I could get that they were. moving on. So you know, if a player is. moving on, they might just not you know, they might not be ready for those last. few games. They might have a bit of an. issue or something and. you know. But there's no way that you you can.

accept that. There's no. No, but but is it Well, put it this way. I I don't want to I don't want to come. here and and shout too much because in a. short period um. it's hard for me to make too many. statements. What I will say is that I. think I under-. I understood the role of being interim. and I understood that probably there was. not much. There's there's certainly not much to. gain for me saying, "Oh, that was so bad. or that was so bad." now because when I. look back probably just try and set my. own thing out of it and I don't I don't. I don't want to go there. I didn't work. long enough with the players to be there.

the one gun and I can't believe that. happened at the end of the season. You. know, I walked into position with some. of them a bit disenchanted or whatever. and I. I'm not going to tell that player that. you shouldn't feel like this. I'll try. and drive them and drive them amongst. the group but it's not for me to go. because a lot of players are sit- a. couple of players sat with me and said, "Listen, I'm going to be leaving in the. summer. I'm finding it a bit difficult.". I'm like, "Okay, I I get that. I'm not. going to change that in 4 weeks or. whatever." So. So what was the objective then in the in. the 4 weeks when you're thinking about. when you realize that what was the sort. of behind-the-scenes context? Do your objectives shift and shift.

slightly and go, "Okay, success here looks now looks like this. for me.". Yeah, in reality and I didn't get that. because it would be results, you know, because everyone would um. would judge me on results. So in terms. of me it would be success here would to. to have got better results in that. period of time and come through there. working at a high-level club again. You. know, it's it's extreme pressures, it's. the media, it's the players, it's. everything is trying to get results in. games and in some games we competed. against Real Madrid, we competed against.

Manchester City, we competed but you. know, that wasn't to be but that was my. version of success but you know, football is not that simple, you know. So many journalists asked you after if. you you kind of like regret taking the. job and your answer's always been like. no cuz I've I've learned a lot. It's. your it's your club. It's it's Chelsea. Um however, had you known the context. and this is only something think know in. hindsight. Mhm. We can't know it in foresight. If there. was some magic genie that could have. shown you the context, the behind the. scenes, the dynamics, the 32 players, the culture,

honestly, do you think you would have. made a different decision? Cuz I think I. would have. Yeah. But we don't have hindsight, obviously. We It's a It's a magical thing that. Yeah, but I I think probably I know and. you and you might think I'm wrong for. saying this, but you you would probably. be taking some emotion out of it from my. point. And also just how I am about the. challenge of going into that. So, if you. say, "All right, all the context is. here, Frank, but you're not going to. know what the results are yet. But. here's all the context. You know, this. player is disenchanted." I kind of knew. that. I I wasn't sure. This is how it's. working. I'm like, I would be like,

"Okay, this is what I've got to work. with. Can I get results?" And whether I. was. um misguided in my own thoughts, I. probably would have gone, "Yeah, I'll. I'll do that." If I've got to be honest, I don't It's too easy for me to say I. wouldn't have done it for that. And and. and nobody gave me that what you said. I. mean, if you had that in an ideal world, I understand what you're saying. And. again, that's why people might look at. it. I don't I generally don't have a. problem with. you know, someone how I would possibly. have a view from the outside on someone. doing what I did. I don't think it's. that changed the world. I think my I. played for 13 years at Chelsea. I I.

coached them before in the Champions. League for 2 years on the trot. Like I I. don't think that whether people want to. have a view on me, I don't worry about. that. I went back for that challenge of. that period. And you know, we didn't get. the results we wanted. I know a lot of. the reasons why. I'll take the. responsibility for my reasons why. Um and that was it. You know, I don't. have a big issue with it. It's like cuz. it's Chelsea, it's so topical. You. manage Chelsea, one of the biggest clubs. in the world, and it's it's one of the. clubs that takes so much, especially in. the Roman Abramovich, is so much. interest because there's a turnover. You. like lose one or two games, and it's. like, "Ooh, what's happening here?" So,

you know, it's uh I'm big enough and. strong enough to handle that stuff. So, you would have Having seen the. context, you would have backed yourself. regardless? I don't have regardless. That sounds. like I'm thinking I'm some Superman that. turned out not to be Superman. Do you. know what I mean? I don't I don't. I don't know. You're asking me so. hypothetical. The season ends eventually. Um. Relief? Relieved in any way? How do you. feel in the end? The last, as I said, last couple of. weeks were quite tough because it was. seeing out a season. It's not, for.

someone like me and for a club like. Chelsea, like it's not a nice place to. be. You know, I want to want to. challenge for things and that's that's. not nice. So, relief probably, yeah. Um because I knew it would end and and. it ended and it wasn't like nice a time. Time to have holidays I'd planned. before. Yeah, for sure. Um and time to. reflect on it. I haven't got a huge. amount of reflections on it, you know? A. lot of people have, but I haven't. I've. got more reflections on the year at. Everton and the. 18 months at Chelsea before and Derby. This this period was so abstract in a. way for me. That interim role was so. different that I I can't put it into a.

context of like, I wish I'd gone in a. meeting on day one. If I'd have done a. meeting about culture, I think they. would have they would have changed. Like, I don't. it wouldn't have changed, you know? If. my tactics were slightly different that. game, I don't believe it would have. changed. And me, overthinker, I would. definitely think that. If it was there. So, you know, I might be right or wrong, but so I don't So, relief and a and a. feeling of like, I wish I'd gone better, you know? Like, that's human nature, you. know? I wanted it to be better cuz I'm a. Chelsea person, you know? The Chelsea. fans were fantastic with me. And in this modern world, I'm not saying. flick online, you'll find everyone.

fantastic, but in terms of it at. Stamford Bridge, I think there's an. understanding at the moment that the. club's not where it wants to be. And. Chelsea fans are actually pretty good. with that. There's some other clubs that. would be like, we lost at home to. Brentford 2-0 and like there'll be some. clubs that would be fans that would be a. bit more vocal. They were actually. pretty good. I think, you know, they're. they're waiting to see something better. this year, but they've also Chelsea fans. watched the team in the second division. in the in the '80s and and seen some. struggles over the years, you know, the. older fans. And so, I do think that the. success that they've enjoyed as a club.

for these 20 years or so, there's a real appreciation of it. And, you know, they don't want it to go on. forever, but I do think they understand. it's a difficult moment. I certainly. felt that at Stamford Bridge. Yeah, they were super. They were. chanting your name even all traffic when. I was there. Yeah. Um even though the the score line wasn't. great and I actually do think that the. Chelsea fans have understood that the. new ownership, what you said, to their. intentions are good. Yeah. And I think they can they can respect. they've bought really good players. There's a transitional moment, but I. think they they will appreciate that. Um. All of that stuff, all of that noise.

online, Christine, you, family, you said. mention scrolling online. How does one. uh keep those two worlds apart so that. you can. focus on your job without letting the. outside world in too much? What is have you got a strategy? What. what's your. I don't scroll too much. scroll? Do you scroll at all? Very, very occasionally. Do you have the apps? The social networking apps and stuff? I have Instagram. Right. Okay. Which I'm not very I have an Instagram. page, but I'm not very active on. It's just not really me. Um. so I don't really scroll I scroll for.

like nosiness, you know, what's everyone. up to and you know, a few friends and. stuff or whatever. Um but I don't actively do it because. uh. it's I don't have the time to do it in. terms of myself. It's just not something. kind of I appreciate anyone else wants. to show themselves, you know, somebody. then or in the gym. Like that's their. prerogative. I've got no problem with. that. I just it's for me it's just not. something I do and then think that's a. nice line. I'm quite a boxer in my life. When I say that I'm going to box off. things and when I want to box off I. don't want to hear that um. that that you know, what some fan in.

so-and-so is going to say about me here. and flick on the the comments from a. Chelsea post. I would just flick by. that. I I try and stay aware of media. because I think it's I do press. conferences every four days. You have to. understand what the tone is of what. maybe people are writing about you or. you know, the journalists. How how do you do How do How do you do. that? Is Have you got like a someone. that comes and briefs you in the. morning? And they tell you what you need to know. Yeah. Uh okay. Yeah. Yes, and I would have I would tap. into a bit in the week whether I'm. flicking on certain websites through the. week. And I wouldn't obviously go in as I said.

into the story into the comments. I. would kind of go into it because you've. got to be across things. I would do. that, but I think it's very unhealthy to. to scroll. Like, I I found that as a. player my playing career missed out the. social media. Came in towards the end. I'm so thankful that it did. We used to. just have the newspapers giving us like. three out of 10 when we played for. England and we got knocked out of the. World Cup. And that was hard. It was. like looking at the paper to see what. they gave you. And that was the version of that. And. then the social media so I I don't envy. the the modern player. As a manager, I.

think it's a bit different. I'm not in a. place where I scroll so I don't envy. these younger players, men and women. now, that are coming through and are. have sort of household names and are. getting so much attention and so much of. it's negative. I think it's incredible. that we've got to that stage that. there's that amount of hate for but it's. so easy to be hateful. Um and my my my I. would try and say to the young players, don't look at it, but the minute the. game finishes. they're flicking and it's it's. difficult. In your professional career, what what.

has been what do you kind of count down. as the hardest moment in terms of. scrutiny? In your professional and like. your playing career and your managerial. career. What is what has been that the. hardest moment for you? Playing for England. Really? Yeah. The 2006 the. 2006 World Cup. I think I had broke the. record for shots at goal without. scoring. Classic. Wasn't there just a loud one that should. have gone in? That was in 2010. So, 2006 I think I had. like 32 shots or something. I went in as. England player of the year. I'd had a. good year or two playing for England. So, I'd got myself in there and was.

becoming, you know, a you know, in a fiction of a team. And. then I went there having scored some. goals in the lead up, scoring at Chelsea. and just had a tournament and it. wouldn't go in for me. And then that played on my mind in. games. I was like second guessing myself. a little bit in the game. And probably off the back of that. there's a lot of criticism. um for myself, for some others. I remember us Chelsea boys getting a lot. of criticism for the next 6 months every. away. game that we went to it was like you let. your country down. The song.

How does that compare to being a manager. in terms of criticism? I found it harder as a player. I don't. know whether it's just maturity. Um because. uh as a player I don't know it maybe. it's in my 20s. Um I found it harder. As a manager I. think it's a it's a different version of. criticism. And um. I think as a player you I don't know. why. I found it harder. If I'm a fly on the wall after a bad. defeat, what do I see? You'll probably see a bit of a of a. face, you know, and then and a and a and.

a going over the situation kind of face. Um and it's different. I I have certain. games that they will affect you and it. might not be the one you'd expect, you. know, the Manchester United you talked. about there we lost 4-1 was it? That one might be different because I. kind of know where we're at this this. season's petering out, you know, we. played some good stuff, you know, whatever. And there might be another. game that, you know, we we really lost. and it really affected me because maybe. think something I did or should have. done or a substitution. So, on those bad. ones you would see the face and you. know, like I would you know, I kind of. go into my shell. I'd start to not like.

I'm sulking in my bedroom. I'm big big. boy, you know, um. but you know, maybe have a glass of wine. chewing it, don't get to bed till quite. late and then you have to go again, you. know, like it's that great sort of adage. that you can people go you learn more. from defeat. You don't feel like that. straight away, but you have to be big. enough to go over the game again. What's. the strategy now? What's the you know, the solution to that? What did we do. wrong? And and that's what it is. You. can't get too down, but we're all human. When you were um 29 years old um one. such moment occurred in your life that.

really I think from your own words. tested you at a much deeper level. You described yourself as being a zombie. for a year after the passing of your. mother. She died at 58 years old um. while you were playing and while you. were playing at the very very highest. level. That for me struck when I was reading. through you the way you described that. moment in your life struck me as a real. sort of destabilizing moment in terms of. focus and all of those things. The question that I um. the question that I had is how as a. player when you're playing at the.

highest level and you have something. like that happen, how do you show up and. maintain those standards and. be Frank Lampard? That's probably what I meant when I said. zombie because it became autopilot. And I think um. when you talk about mental health, that's the one time that I've been. challenged to the extreme with it. And. you know, a lot of people go through. this. And that was the really. interesting thing I found cuz I have. some perspective now these years later. is that when it happens to you and it's. unexpected, it's very sudden for me.

You. You've never thought about that kind of. thing happening before. The only The. only thing I'll say is this, I was a I. was a mummy's boy as I've said before. So I used to have these weird um. moments. I don't know if you have them. I I have. them sometimes when I think about death. and I kind of go. Oh god, when you die, you there's. nothing. And I have those moments and it. hits me in the stomach for about like 4. seconds. I'm driving along and I'm like. there's nothing. I'm like there's. absolutely nothing. And then you go I. got to go I got to go to life carries. on. And I used to have that with my mom. I don't know if it was probably reliance. I had on her. She was like I was so like.

mummy's boy, you know, growing up. But I. remember as I got a little bit older. like to my teens and I was like imagine. mom wasn't there for a moment. It was a. panic for like 10 seconds. I remember. them. And then because it I was 29 as you say. and it was very sudden. I was at a in a. hotel um that we used to stay at. pre-game. We were playing Wigan on the. in the evening at home. I got a call from my sister telling me. that she'd fell ill. And then so I kind of went okay, she's. going to the hospital. Okay, that's a. bit dangerous. So we went to sleep. I. didn't sleep. Supposedly we'd sleep. I. was kind of lying there a bit like.

tossing and I couldn't get off. I'm I'm. angsty. I got another call. And then as. we get on the bus to go to Stamford. Bridge, it's like two a mile. I get the call that no, no, she's. getting much worse. So I'm like right, I'm in I'm in Frank I'm a sportsman go. and do your job mode. And then I just. kind of broke a bit on the coach. Kind. of went I mean I felt myself go gray and. someone said to me I was you were in. gray." But I felt myself go like, "Oof.". Anyway, just got to the stadium, said to. the manager, "Manager, this is what's. happening." And he was like, "Go." So, I.

was like, in my tracksuit, drive over to. East London, mom's in hospital. So, when I get there, mom's now in the. on on on the verge of going into. intensive care. So, she's got the stuff. on and stuff. And I walk in, I'm in my. tracksuit. And my mom had the oxygen mask on. And. she hadn't been speaking. She'd So, she's taken really ill in the day. And she lifted her. um a mask and said to me, "What are you. doing here?" So, I'm in my Chelsea. tracksuit. And I and I didn't know what to say cuz. I didn't want to go, you know, "I'm here. cuz this is a really bad situation." I. mean, "I'm just here to see you, mom,

you know." And then sort of. put the mask back on. And then she was. really And then they kind of wheeled her. in. She held my hand, which I'll never. forget. And then she went in and was put into. intensive care. So, that was one a one-week process of my. mom in intensive care. So, um she started to get better. Um and then. um. few of the family were kind of getting. not excited about it, but it was like, "That's progress, you know, mom's out.". She'd been on on every machine possible. And I'm still having to think about. going into work. I can't remember if I. trained that period. I can't remember.

that week. That's like a blur. I just. remember being at home. a lot, you know, in really, you know, in. a in a bad way. Um and then we had. Champions League games coming up against. Liverpool. I played one away. I came back, mom was getting a bit. better. And then we got the phone call. that she'd passed away. She had a brain. hemorrhage. So, just as she was getting better, everyone was excited, she passed away. there and then. So, it was like. the the biggest devastation. I can't. explain. And as I say, years later, I. realized that this happens to so many.

other people. And when you're a young. man with who hadn't really lost anyone, you don't have that real feeling of what. that is. And I lost the person that was. the closest person to me, you know, everything to me. And I'll never forget the feeling in my. stomach. If I talk about it, I get it. instantly again. Um and um I lost, you know, what was my best friend, the person that. had given me all that that kind of. emotion stuff I'd spoken about, the. warmth, and the the sudden feeling that. someone's not going to be with you. Like, it doesn't compare to anything. when you're that close. Um, so, you know, in terms of work after.

that, probably some of it, if I look. back, I probably go, "Maybe I should. have just come out of it." Like, life is. bigger than that, but it was like my. probably a a tiny coping mechanism for. me. We played a game a game against. Liverpool, the second leg, and I scored a penalty. We won the game. Now we're getting sent. to the Champions League final. And I. remember sitting in the dressing room. afterwards, and I had this almighty. um, like sense of s- of of fatigue, and, you. know, body and mental fatigue. Uh, and I went home, and sort of opened.

a beer, and I couldn't even drink it. I. went to the bed, and it was like it was. like everything came out of me then of. like a week or two of full blast of. of this pain. You know, it's it's this. complete pain. And then you lose your. best friend and then the person that, you know, I've still got a number in my. phone, and I've still got a couple of. voice note We were never a big family. for videos and stuff, and I I wish we. were. Um, the only thing I have is my mom's. sister is Sandra, Sandra Redknapp, Harry. Redknapp's wife. And every time I speak to Sandra or hear. my mom, they look very similar, they sound very.

similar, and it's like in the first. period it was painful, now it's kind of. nice, you know, because that's a a. memory for me. But the the, you know, it's the the the feeling of grief, you. know, I I. it catches up with me now and again many. years later. I think I probably had a. year. um, I was sort of single, I was like. probably drinking a little bit. I was. playing fantastic football. I had a. really good year of football. It was. weird. Um, and then I met Christine, and thank. God Christine came along around that. time because I was a little bit, you know, not not right in that period. So, it was.

a. it was a it was a really, um, obviously, you know, anybody who loses. someone so close to them, but she was so. big in my life, and was such a balance. in my life. And then, you know, that sudden thing is just. terrible. Did Did Did you process that? Cuz it. sounds like. because you had football commitments. back-to-back to that, that there wasn't. really an opportunity to like sit and. Yeah. I I don't know. I mean, I've been. through the experience, and um. the that zombie thing I talk about is. like I I couldn't comprehend it. I felt.

empty and and weak, but I had a a job to. do. And the job was so secondary. I I. was certainly wasn't trying to be a. hero. I just didn't know where it I think if. I'd have laid around all day, I would. have really taken more of a hit. It was. almost like getting up and going to work. in that period and having something to. aim for was just almost like I've got I. That's what I should do. And then, I definitely took the hit. later on for that. I definitely took a. kind of deferred. moments of grief. And And I talk about.

them, like I say there, it could be. anything that would be. um. a couple of glasses of wine and. something said at a dinner table, uh a. moment of someone else, and I feel bad. about this, talking about their mother. or something, you know, and they're. talking glowingly about their mother. And And And you kind of get hit, you. know, um or another parent's birthday, like crazy things I've got no right to. be upset about, if you know what I mean, but just hits me. And you kind of And I. That sort of get on with it like. hard-nosed, get on with it, son, kind of.

feel feel, which has stuck with me. There was the one time I remember being. absolutely broken and tested on that. Because I had that And I got some anger. as well. I I remember used to I remember. having road rage a couple of times, literally the few days after. I pulled. out of my drive. And it It was a Chelsea game. So, I. wasn't playing it because of what's. happened, but I was at home, and I was. driving to go and see my sister or. something. Someone sort of drove across me, and I. got out of the car, and I And I went for. them. And it was a Chelsea fan. He went, "Frank, calm down." And I was like, "Ah, sorry.". And I had these moments of anger in the. period afterwards that would just come. out of me out of nowhere. I wouldn't say.

I They've stuck with me from now, but it. definitely changed me as a person. I. don't I don't know how to explain it, but it definitely made me have a. different take on things and be a bit. more. I don't know if ruthless is the word, but more. you know that thing about kind of like. cutting out. some people that were in your life that. you maybe would have got on with. I just. kind of took a little bit more of a. direct approach in my life after that. Amongst some serious moments of grief. within it, you know, I. it's uh. it was a it's a tough time. The The The.

only benefit, it sounds really warped. I. said this to someone the other day. The. only benefit is it now you know, I I. don't have to go through that again. That sounds really strange. It was such. a tough period for me. That the only thing now when I see, you. know, Christine's family are there and. other people around me have friends and. family and I I miss my mom so much like. every day. And as time goes by, of. course, things balance out. But, I can't. envision ever going through that pain. again about what I did cuz my mom was. the only person who been Now now. Christine is obviously that person in my. life and my children, of course.

But, in terms of what she meant to me at. that time, the only thing is I I can go. that is so painful. I I really couldn't. go through that again now. That's It's a. It's a weird way of looking at it. And I. I hope that doesn't sound strange. It's. just. I I. processing it was too difficult. And. it's almost like. uh it was almost like a dream. It was my. life was never supposed to be like that. in my head. You know, my mom was 58. And. I felt like she was quite old. And now I. start doing the math. I'm 44. You know, like and you kind of go it wasn't old, you know, like I was 29. And my mom felt. a bit older at the point. Now it's like.

she should be mid-70s now. And you know, as I said, the sudden nature of it meant. you couldn't speak to her as well, which. is like as I've got older I realized. that my mom would have known exactly how. I felt about her. But, at the time it. was like. uh I want to say something more, you. know, and couldn't. You want to say something more? Just like thank you. Do you know what I mean? Like thanks to. um for being the balance, for being the. one um. who you know, in those tough moments. when my dad was being harsh or something.

there, for being the one that would when. I was crying in the bath after a game. and coming and knocking on the door. So. like for making me food. You know, like things a a great mother. does. She just was that. You know, my. mom was there to sort of it might be. sound old school now and but she was a. hairdresser by trade who then became a. housewife and a mother. And you know, for everything that was going on in my. family life and lots of things have, she. was always the one that was like the the. real stand up. When I look back now I I. I understand it even more that she had. the ethics and the everything about her.

And then I would love to just be able to. say that. You know, it's like those, you. know, an emotional song can get you. going. It's like I can I speak to her. one more time to say, here's a monologue. for you. You know, like just to to hear. it. But I I with time I definitely have. got more strength in the fact that she. knew that. And that's that's it. And when everyone I speak to you says. that you are that class act, you are the you're kind, you're. empathetic, and all of that. Now I know where that's come that comes. from.

No, I don't I don't know. Listen, I I I. knew you were going to ask me this. because I've seen you you know, it. wouldn't you know, it's it's part of my. story. And I didn't want to cry. I'm surprised. I haven't. Um. but cuz I've cried probably enough at. different times. Um but it's um. it's almost something like it is. strangely therapeutic to speak about it. and this is very public and that's not. normally how I am. I'm very private. Our. lives are Christian and very private. It's how we like to live. And sometimes when those moments where I. say the really grief-stricken moments.

over a glass of wine, I kind of feel better after them because. that's probably what I held in when I. was like hitting that penalty when and. people give me huge pla- maybe when you. scored that penalty when your mom had. just died as if it was like a hero. moment. It wasn't. It was me just kind. of going I got to try and do this and. and and do my job. And then. these moments now sometimes are quite. therapeutic if I'm honest, but it's uh. you know, I especially for other people. that have gone through that and much. worse. You know, a lot of worse things. can happen in different ways. But until you feel that loss, you know,

I remember I actually remember thinking. when I lost mom it was like a couple of. my friends lost their parents when they. were younger. And I remember then thinking I've never. really broached that subject with them. You know, a couple of my friends were. like 14 and lost I met at school at that. age who had already lost their parent or. were in the process of. and I never really kind of went and they. and they were like 14, I was 29. And I'd. never even not thought about it, but you. know, you kind of go, "Oh, I'm sorry, mate." And then you move on and you go, "Imagine you know, all the things and I. had to process at 29." It's slightly. different. But those things so it, you.

know, life kicks you sometimes and that. was the biggest kick I think I'll. I I've had till this point, you know, and hopefully um for a long time. Do you talk about your emotions with. Christine? Yeah, I do. I do. I think I'm quite good. about that. She will say to me sometimes. I'm quite closed. Yeah. to that stuff. And then that kind of. kicks me into talking about it cuz. They're really good at that, aren't. they? Yeah. My girlfriend's really good at that. Annoyingly good at that. Yeah, no, they're really good. And I. don't mind she sees me going into the.

zone kind of thing sometimes and she'll. be like, "What's bothering you?" And. I'll go, "Oh, well, it's this." You. know, it's probably something that's. irrelevant or something, but. Is that the first answer you'll give cuz. mine's usually nothing? Yeah, yeah, nothing. I'll do that too. No, I'll definitely do that too. Cuz no one will open the box. No, no, that's right. It's But it's. good. I think cuz like I definitely want. to don't come across as this, you know, like I said like this get on with it. thing. It's certainly not me. I look at. myself as being, you know, the the. balance again of my mother was that one. that she gave me that kind of empathy. I. I associate all the empathy with my. mother that I had because that's how she.

was was always with me. So when I, you. know, it's just I also have a mechanism. that kind of keeps it there. But it's. definitely inside and you know, maybe. children also help with that because. when you see your child. and their smiles and their sort of. innocent nature and how they are, I. think that also helps you become a. little bit more emotional because you. start to care about that more than. pretty much anything else, which is. which has also been a. beautiful thing. Over the last few years I've realized. that my first foundation is my health, something you've heard me talk about a. lot. Nothing matters more than that.

first foundation. So, that is why I'm so. excited to be involved with a company. like Whoop, who are leading the charge. when it comes to bettering your health. All my friends have received free Whoops. from me because once you've tried Whoop, I think it's like lights turning on to. your health. That's the only way I can. describe it. My sleep, my performance, my recovery, my stress, it's like. someone turned the lights on. I'm sure. you guys know, but for those that don't. know what Whoop is, it's a wearable. health and fitness coach that provides. you with the feedback and actionable. insights into your sleep, recovery, training, stress, and overall health.

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love I'd love to know. A quick word on Huel. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast and. I'm an investor in the company. One of. the things I've never really explained. is how I came to have a relationship. with Huel. One day in the office many. years ago, a guy walked past called. Michael and he was wearing a Huel. t-shirt. And I was really compelled by. the logo. I just thought from a design. aesthetic point of view, it was really. interesting. And I asked him what that. word meant and why he was wearing that. t-shirt. And he said, "There's this. brand called Huel and they make food. that is nutritionally complete and very, very convenient and has the planet in.

mind." And he the next day dropped off a. little bottle of Huel on my desk. And. from that day onwards, I completely got. it because I'm someone that cares. tremendously about having a. nutritionally complete diet. But. sometimes, because of the way my life. is, that falls by by wayside. So, if. there was a really convenient, reliable, trustworthy way for me to be. nutritionally complete in an affordable. way, I was all ears, especially if it's. a way that is conscious of the planet. Give it a chance. Give it a shot. Let me. know what you think. What's the future like for you, Frank?

What do you think? I don't know. I might I'm very It's hard. to know. A lot of people can say to me, "Oh, you. should now get into punditry. It's easy. Put your feet up. Do what you know.". That's And it's certainly I get my. um enjoyment, I get my. gets my blood flowing, and it's working. and being a coach. So, that's what I want to do, and I'm in. no immediate rush to do it. The reality. is off the back of Everton and Chelsea, it's probably time for me to take my. time anyway. Because of what opportunity there might.

be out there, there may be no. opportunity. There may be something that comes up. that I want to look at and say, "Does. that work for me on all on all. purposes?" Because. I get your point with the Chelsea one. It's like, "Did you really need to take. that?" And the the jobs I've taken have. been quite challenging. And a lot are. I'm not saying I'm going to be given. this like, "Here you go. This is going. to be great.". So, I would probably try and choose. well without sounding too picky because, you know, I will want to work. Um and in the meantime. do the things that make me happy, which.

is being around my family. I like to. travel. It's like the one thing that I. um really like to spend my money on. But, you know, it's when I when I. travel, I want to go better than home. Mhm. And if I don't go better than home, I'll. stay at home. And I have a I've got a. nice house. You know, so I we we love that. So, I'll. you know, use the time to travel a bit, be with the family and my children, spend more time. My elder daughters are. doing A levels and GCSEs now. And be be around that, and that's nice. And sometimes, you know, I think that's. good for me because I am so driven. It's. like, I feel like I should work. I.

should work. And actually, sometimes you. go, "Actually, I'm 45, and I've done all. right in my life. Maybe I don't need. need to work." And that And that's not a. bad place to be. I'm fortunate. I don't. I have gratitude for that. So, at At. moment, it's the gratitude of that, enjoy it, and then try and work again. And what would be what would be your. sort of sort of decision-making. framework when people call and they say, "What about this job? Or what about. this?" What's the How would you decide. whether it's worth taking that? Well, it's hard to say, but from my. experience, I would want to. make sure I would want to have. conversations to find out what the the.

job is. And I I can't I can't sit here, feel this way, and talk to you about. being aligned, and then they need to. feel the way that I'll be the coach, and. they're going to do this, and work. together. And probably take another job where it. doesn't feel aligned. You know, I I I. shouldn't um. do that. So, I'd want to have a. conversation and be like, "What What can. I do for you?" I have to sell myself. Clearly, that's the point. But what can. How will it work together? And maybe get. something that feels a bit like an I. don't mind. I'll work, you know, in in the UK, anywhere. I.

would travel if an opportunity came up. I would certainly prioritize a bit of. family to make sure that it's. something that works for my family. Um ideally. So, I don't know. I don't. know about that one. Everyone seems to be going that way. They do. They do. I mean, I I I would. prefer to stay in the UK, for sure. Um and I and I don't mind. I I went and. lived in Everton for a year, lived in. Derby for a year. I missed my family a. lot, but you have to, you know, make. those big decisions. We're fortunate in. ways. But we'll um I'll see. I'll see what. comes up. It's hard to call before it. comes. If we sit here in 10 years' time and. this chapter's this next sort of 10.

years, this next decade has been a. success, what does that look like? What would have had to have happened for. it to have been a success this next. decade? Well, 55-year-old Frank and me. 55, well, I'm here, so that's good. At. 55, I think my, you know, obviously, the. the family to be well and healthy. You. understand that more when you hit. for me, it was hitting probably 40. Health and understanding, maybe you. check yourself more on those things and. lifestyle. And then um. to be, hopefully, have managed and had. success.

coaching. You know, that's that's what I. want to do. I can't see what that looks. like, but I would love to be able to. to show myself consistently. in a job and what I can do. I haven't. had that opportunity yet for whatever. that was me or whatever as the. circumstances have been to do that. So, I'm really determined to do that. I'm I'm good like that. I'm determined. and I like to work. Like anyone who. knows me will know that. Like regardless. of what my career has been, if you put. it in front of me, I'll tackle it. head-on. And then, you know, I'm. um I'm always trying to improve, so. hopefully in 10 years I can show you.

that. There's got to be a part of you that. wants to go back to Chelsea someday. Knowing that if I know you half the way. I know you, there's got to be a part of. you inside you that's like, "You know. what? One day I'll I'll I'll go back.". It's funny. You know, like you talk. about should you have taken that job. I. reckon if you'd have asked me that. before going back, I might have said no. As in not like I. don't want to go back to Chelsea, but I. would have certainly seen myself no, no. Like that's chapter's done as a coach. But now I've been back, I would think. about it even more. And it's strange. And I and I think, you.

know, the the fact that the ownership has. changed at Chelsea and it's gone in a. different direction. I think it can be a. really positive thing for the club. I. think people might not see that now, but. I think it really can. Um but obviously I have a lot to do to. be part of that ever. But like I I don't. you have to make a clear decision. When. we I played 13 years at Chelsea, I said. I'd never play anywhere else. I ended up. playing at Man City. Some people. criticized me for that. It's fine. I. didn't expect it, but Man City was an. amazing experience. Went to New York. City, it was an amazing experience. When. you become a manager, you can't say I'm.

going to be Chelsea manager, I'm going. to be this. You have to take the. journey. Because that's the those are. the rules for all of us. You know, you. can be. you know, success for a moment at Everton and. everyone goes, "Well done, you stayed. up." And then you and then next job, what is it? And I would you know, I have. respect for so many big clubs that you. know, there are certain clubs I wouldn't. manage. I'm not going to declare them. because that just sounds like cheap and. but I think it's important I I respect. my time at Chelsea as a player and what. the club means to me. But I don't see it as the be-all and. end-all, but as I say, having been back.

there, it did re-light a fire. I left. Chelsea in COVID as a manager. So, I. didn't have any fans in my my last. period. So, I kind of walked out like a. little bit through the back door. Um in a sense. Um and this time it felt. different. And that wasn't a great. period. But it is still a huge club for. me, so maybe. I'm really excited to watch what happens. next. Thank you. Um you did a great job at Derby. Obviously, then you got um Chelsea into. the the Champions League. I think. finished fourth that season um under a. transfer ban. Mhm.

And then you kept Everton up on the last. day of the season, which again most. people had kind of counted Everton out. So, obviously there was that interim. period. I look It's funny cuz I'm going. to be honest. So, I when when we were. meant to have this podcast last time and. then you called me um and said, "Listen, I can't come. Can't say you why." Um and. I kind of put two and two together and. figured it was the job. I looked at that. and thought, "No, I don't know. Chelsea. are 11th or 12th at the moment. Like. what's what's the worst that can happen, really?" What I didn't know is the the. back context. So, if I was in your. shoes, uh. in hindsight, and we don't have.

hindsight in in in the moment, I would. have probably I would have not taken the. job if I was in that situation. But in. foresight, I definitely would have. Mhm. 100% for all the reasons you said. If. Manchester United called me now, I'd. take the job. Yeah. And I have no experience. Yeah. Yeah. So, but um but I think what we're going. to I'm really excited to see what we see. next from you in your your sort of. managerial career because. I mean, what you the experience you've. had warts and all is worth a ton. Yeah. You know? Yeah. At all different levels, all different. phases, transitional, relegation. battles, all of that is worth more than.

a lot of successes are worth. And you've. had that in a short window of time. So, really really excited about your next. chapter, whenever it comes. Thank you. Um. Is there anything at all you would say. to Chelsea fans that are watching this. now that are. um. that would love to, you know, Chelsea. fans will be listening to this cuz they. want to get A, your opinion on what's. just happened, but they probably want to. get your opinion on like what you think. the future looks like, I guess. And. also, I think a lot of them do want to. like check in on you. Cuz since you've. left, we've not really heard from you in. such context. Yeah, and I've enjoyed that. I've.

enjoyed not speaking. It's been nice. Um. No, I think for Chelsea fans, I would. say that um. uh. in terms of what do I think is next, I I. listened to Pochettino spoke yesterday. It was his first press conference and he. he uh he spoke very well and he spoke. about bringing a. a unity at the training ground and a. family feel and then winning, which is. Chelsea DNA. So, I think. they've got a really good manager in. charge and I think the players will. definitely develop with their, you know,

as they as they develop naturally. They're good players, young players. There has to be some patience in putting. that together cuz I think that's that. has to be clear. And the owners have a big intention. So, I think as things settle, it may not be straight away, but I think. that there's a. really positive future for the club. And. I was in it and it was tough, but you. know, I know how quickly things can. change if you get the strategy right. In terms of me, I'm absolutely fine and. I I'd certainly appreciate the support I. had from, as I say, a majority of lot of. fans that would, you know, contact me or. be at Stamford Bridge.

And for anybody that was on the other. side of that was like, "Why is Frank. back in the job?" I. I think they. maybe I've explained some of my. part in it today and some of the. challenges. I'll always take. responsibility. I wouldn't walk back. into that challenge without sort of. saying this might not go right and. what's my responsibility. So, but Chelsea's always a huge club and as. I say, I never went back to Chelsea. until. 3 days before I went and took the. interim job manager and I went to to. Liverpool game and end up having a. conversation. And it was a difficult period for me for. some reason. I I didn't I left in COVID,

as I say, and I moved on to Everton. And it reignited that kind of feeling. being back at Stamford Bridge, I have to. say. Not that I lost it, it just. reignited it. And. you know, so to Chelsea fans, I don't. know. I'm fine. I'm fine. I appreciate their support in. my playing career. It's nice when you. finish playing because your playing. career is there and I can look back on. it with a lot a lot of pleasure for a. lot of the good moments. When you're in it, it's like, "What's. next?" And you're sort of like always. challenging yourself. When you finish, you kind of go, "Yeah, you know, that. was good. That was all right. There was.

a lot of good stuff." So, they were good. times, and I was very thankful to be. part of a of a great club, and we'll. see. You gave Mason Mount his start. Yes, I think he's a great signing for. you. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Thank you for that. He's he's fantastic. Why is he leaving Why is he leaving. Chelsea? He's born and born and bred, isn't he? Yeah, I think it's a it's a complicated. one, and in the end, I think it's. Uh he's got a year left on his contract. What I'll say about Mason is. all the things I spoke about that you.

talk about like modern players and how. the game's changed, he is a throwback to. the attitude and the commitment and the. quality that the you know, that was the. the beauty of working with Mason was. that he gave you so much in terms of his. um. uh. effort every day. Anything you'd ask him. to do was like, "Yeah." And he kind of. got it. And I think any great player has. to have that kind of intelligence and. that desire about them, you know, like, "What do you need me to do? Like, be out. I've got it and I'll do it. I'll repeat. it." And also quality. So, in terms of. what he'll bring to Manchester United,

it won't just be what Mason brings. He. will bring loads of talent. that he's just going to go and levels. around you. a bar raiser. Yeah, I I I think so. And and and don't. get me wrong, the bar raiser is already. there with Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, but he will Yeah, Casemiro. But, he will. absolutely fit in with it. If you're. trying to build, which you're saying. you're. a group mentality of a team and you. know, players that are just going to give. everything and have talent, which top. team needs, he fits it. So, I've seen. some sort of alternative reactions to. that. It's like, "Oh yeah, Mason Mount's. a good buy. Why would you pay that for.

him?" Mason Mount is going to be a. fantastic player that my opinion. It's really nice to know cuz actually I. was a bit on the fence in the in regards. of don't really know the character of. the man. And but I have heard from. inside Old Trafford that Erik ten Hag. Erik ten Hag is really ultra focused on. exactly what you've said above. everything else, he's focused on that. like core. Mhm. values. So, Casemiro, um Bruno, etc. etc. Mhm. And so, it's nice to know that Mason is. a. Yeah, he is. a bar raiser. Yeah. But, why is he leaving? Do you know? Um.

Seeking a different challenge or is it. No, I don't think so. I think probably. Mason would have envisaged 2 years ago. that he'd stay at Chelsea for a lot of. his career. I just think circumstances, his contract situation. Um I know he's got a big love for. Chelsea. Um. Also, in modern day, you know, I think. more than more than even in my day, players do move. And I don't think, you. know, for the challenge of moving, now. it's come to that. For Mason, personally, is a is a good challenge for him. I. would have liked to have seen him stay. at Chelsea because I think he's he would. have been central to it, but it didn't. happen.

We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest, and I have. to say this is the longest question that. has ever been left for anyone else. It's. quite abstract. Right. as well. So, we're both going to have to. kind of figure this one out, but the. question is. you're going to be surprised by this. When broken down to its roots or origin, the word enthusiasm. begins with en theos, which means with. God. For people who have not identified. something which they are truly. passionate about pursuing, can you. suggest a way to cultivate that.

enthusiasm? That is a good question, mate. Um. So, I think the real question here is. just in this line here, which is when. for people who haven't identified. something which they are truly. passionate about pursuing, how do they. go about that? Wow. Um. Thanks for that one. Yeah, this is a good question, but then. I don't know. Um. This is a good point, actually, because. my daughters now and my eldest daughter. is going leave getting her A-level. results this summer.

Is talking about uni, but she doesn't. really know what she wants to do. And I. actually felt. uh not bad. I I went to school, obviously, but my pathway, you know, looking back was like fortunately, start. Didn't didn't to think about much. else. And I So, I haven't got any big answers. for it. And also, like from a a modern. woman, you know, where where is the. path? What does she want to do? I asked. her that question and she's not sure, which is completely understandable. So, for me, I think for her, if if if. it's flipping it there, it's maybe it's. maybe it's a passion or not. But my. thing, and it probably goes back to my. roots, is to.

the work ethic thing is what I say to. her. It's to get out there and um get in. the workplace and meet people. Because I. think in the modern world. with my daughters are so engrossed in. social media. They have a lot of answers about life, you know? A lot of answers. And I'm. like, okay, I don't agree with that one, but I'll let that one go. I don't agree. with that one. And I start to feel like. a dinosaur. But I do think that they. kind of get caught up in that and all. the answers are there. And I go, "Okay, what are you going to do then?" And they. go, "I don't know." And you kind of go, "Okay, well, fine. You've got all this. information. It's the modern world. But.

what are you going to do?" I go out and. get a weekend job if you're going to go. to uni. Go out and experience what the. the real world is like rather than this. alternative world that you're slightly. looking at. And then I think something might ignite. it. So, that was that was my And again, that's probably as deep as I could go. cuz I don't care where it is. You could. be in a coffee shop, you could be in a. this shop or that shop or whatever. But um. this is my daughter's story, obviously. So, it was more about getting out and. meeting people. And And I guess probably. in in a in a And to bring that question. back to me,

myself going out of my comfort zone and. leaving Chelsea to go to Man City and. then living in New York for 2 years. ignited a million things in me. And none. of them were like big hobbies or. something like that. It was just like, wow, there's a different world, a. different culture, people who approach. things with positivity and energy that. I've never seen in England. And it. changed my approach. So, maybe my answer would be come out of. your comfort zone and do something which. is. different. I was fortunate to do that. I. worked there. But I was living in. probably what for me is possibly the. best city in the world.

And it changed me as a person. So, maybe, you know, to to get the passion, Mhm. try something. Take yourself out of the. comfort zone and it might just appear. for you. Makes perfect sense. And I think, yeah, exactly what I heard there is that often. we when we're too within familiarity, we're not going to get the inspiration. of what might be our passion if we're. searching for it, but going to New York. or um just getting out into the world. and having experiences can lead us. there. Yeah. Frank, thank you so much for your time. today. And thank you for doing this cuz. I I want to say like you um you are a. man of your word. No, I am.

Cuz we were going to do this last time, and you could have easily not done it, but you messaged me and said I want to. get that back on because I said I would. Mhm. Um and again, that's just another. example of you just being a class act. The whole process of you canceling last. time cuz you got the Chelsea job and. then coming back. You've just been an. absolute class act. Um you're a man. where no one can question your your. integrity and your principles. And then. on top of that, I I've I've see a man. who is um. incredibly keen to work and do well in. whatever he applies himself to. And. because of that, you've led this. fantastic career both as a professional. football player and as a manager, which.

is, I think, you're just halfway. through. And there's this whole new. season as you get up to, you know, you. 45 years time, you're going to be 90. And I'm I'm so excited to watch that. story unfold because of all the wisdom. you've garnered in the last 45. So, thank you for being an inspiration to. me, for giving me so many great um. memories in football as an England. player, Right. less so as a Chelsea player. You guys were really good. Through that that that's that period. So, um but it's a real honor to get to. know you. And um yeah, thank you for all. your wisdom. And thank you very much. Thank you.

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