Fearne Cotton: THIS Is How To Build Confidence & Set Yourself Free | E116

i wanted to be liked and i wanted people. to think i was interesting and so i had. to pretend and the voice in my head this. ego kept saying i'm a piece of [ __ ] that. i still. really have a problem with and i've got. to get better at when you're in that. headspace. not much makes sense anymore and you. have to start questioning everything. otherwise you just get stuck. the new path that i've forged which. isn't necessarily as mainstream and. isn't as shiny or celebrated or whatever.

but i can be. truly me and there's room to move and. there's room to change it feels. liberating quick one can you do me a. favor if you're listening to this and. hit the subscribe button the follow. button wherever you're listening to this. podcast thank you so much fern cotton to. me she's the definition of authenticity. and she absolutely exudes self-awareness. and wisdom because she spent the last 10. 20 years. understanding herself. she went through this remarkable journey. of entering the public spotlight at just.

15 years old where she started working. on tv and up until her 30s when she. worked on bbc's radio 1 she remained. front and center in british media. but behind the scenes something else was. going on feeling like she wasn't being. true to herself and she was living. someone else's life. like she was wearing a mask it all came. to a head in her early 30s where she. realized that something had to change. if her panic attacks and her depression. was to end she had to make big life. changes.

and this meant leaving her job in. pursuing a completely. different uncertain. unknown path. her story is remarkable but this. conversation was so incredibly valuable. because fern is wise she's done the work. and as she sits here today she's able to. tell us to tell me to tell you the. listener how to avoid making some of the. mistakes that she made in her life so. that we can all get to our own. very happy place. without further ado i'm stephen bartlett.

and this is the diary of a ceo i hope. nobody's listening but if you are then. please keep this to yourself. i. one of the things that i've got from. reading about you reading about um. your story and reading your books was. how. self-analytical. and self-aware. you've become as the years have gone by.

and it's pretty much central to a lot of. what you do is really understanding. yourself having these conversations on a. happy place and understanding others. which becomes a bit of a mirror. sometimes when you have a podcast so. when you look back at the. the start of your life. what were the things that were really. formative to you. that you've noticed in hindsight. i guess like most people it's. my parents. and. their work ethic and their outlook on. life.

and. they're very very different people so. i've picked up very different things. from both of them so my mom is. tenacious very honest she gets things. done. she's been very dynamic over the years. but her work ethic has been amazing like. when i was growing up she had. anywhere between one and four jobs at. any one time having to just sort of. juggle life and get money on the table. so i had that sort of like tenacious. force. in my life but and then i also had my.

dad who's so laid back really super. chilled. super creative he only retired a couple. of years ago although he's sort of. started working again but he was a sign. writer. throughout his whole working life. so i would go and watch him paint these. beautiful signs by hand obviously back. in the day. and he was always drawing and painting. at home and i would do the same so i've. always had a huge love of of art and. creating.

and my dad's a really good story to. hello and he's very funny and my mum's. really social and really brilliant at. talking to people so i i kind of just. observed them you know i wasn't actively. doing it as a kid but by osmosis you you. take in. all of this information and. and just what you're seeing as a as a. child growing up so. i. have my mum and dad to thank for. everything really you know they they. gave me the sort of stability and love.

to do what i wanted but also they showed. me work ethic. which i've always really held on tight. to because. i want to do well and i'm not. scared to say that i i want to to. succeed and do well in what i'm doing. and i know that requires a lot of work. what about school how are you in school. i heard not so not so great. um. i was good i guess when i was tiny i.

wanted to stay in line i wasn't a rebel. i didn't want to get in trouble i was. terrified of authority or getting a. detention so i was pretty well behaved. and then i guess in my teen years i. started to just think. this is so boring and it's gray it's. gray outside and it's gray in here and. there must be. something other than this sort of. suburban life that i'm in i mean it was. all fine i was very lucky kid who grew. up with loving parents and a brother and.

i had a school to go to but i just found. it so boring and that's where i just. started daydreaming constantly and i. guess that's where i started getting in. a teeny bit of trouble i was dreaming of. all of these other options other than. the ones i was being presented you know. you have to fill in the form of. what career option are you going to have. and it would always come back with. something that was relatively social but. it was nothing to do with what i was. interested in so i thought i'm not doing. any of this crap i want to do something.

that makes my heart sing and that that. was always at that stage performing. in some way so i i luckily found a. brilliant local dance and drama school. it was in a church hall it was run by. all of these. young cool brilliant dancers singers. actors who were all in the west end. doing stuff but then running this little. local dance school on the side and that. was my everything so at school i was. just like watching the clock thinking. when can i get out of here to get to my.

dance school. and i danced every day after school all. saturday all sunday. and that just felt. incredible like it was pure escapism. getting to just listen to amazing music. and learn. incredible dance routines i'm so. grateful to alex and chris that the two. people that that ran the dance school. and um. it just was the the coolest place to be. and to hang out and i would spend every. second there that i could so if i'd.

asked you at that age what you want to. be when you grow up. post that dance school experience what. would you have said to me probably an. actor or. a like a backing dancer on top of the. pops was very appealing at that point. like i want to be in a crop top and. cargo pants. dancing behind a cool pop star that was. very appealing to me but i think i. really wanted to act because it felt. like pure escapism and we did all these. brilliant shows little tiny local. theaters but. really overly rehearsed and sort of you.

know well done well thought through by. our. sort of dance school teachers and we had. amazing teachers you know people. straight from cats coming off stage and. teaching us routines or saturday night. fever whatever it might be. and it yeah it just felt exciting and. fun and something completely different. to the. mundane reality of going to school and. you know my parents working really hard. and just that mundane routine it just.

felt like a complete break from it so i. think acting. was was the goal but i went very. off-piste did you believe when you were. 13-14 that that was. possible. you believed it was possible yeah i. don't know why because i didn't know. anyone in that world. it i was a local dancer wasn't it sort. of like radar or even sylvia young's a. local dance school in a church. but i think the combination of being a. big dreamer like having wild fantasies.

that i would just love escaping to. obviously before phones and social media. so your imagination was kind of where it. was at. and i would dream big and also my. parents they were never sort of like. pushy stage parents they were too busy. working but they were certainly. encouraging like you like this stuff you. keep doing it you know go all day. saturday go all day sunday it was. certainly encouraging. and obviously that combined with a huge. amount of naivety allowed me to believe. that i could do it and i think it's good.

to have that naivety as a youngster. because you become jaded as you get. older and you see the pitfalls and you. see where you've made mistakes and i. miss that naivety because i don't really. have any of it anymore i kind of know. what i'm stepping into. i second guess the bad stuff that's. going to happen i'm probably overly. cautious whereas back then i could be. ridiculously. wild and brave because i was naive and. it got me somewhere and i sometimes miss. that naivety i guess.

i couldn't relate more to that feeling. of just the preciousness of naivety um. and also how that decays as we become. adults and the world starts to. make us be a bit more realistic. really boring realistic imprisoning it. is 15 years old you get a spot on a. disney show by. hockey by crooks it seems that it was. quite a yeah. fate i guess really it was. like most brilliant game-changing. moments lots of factors so i was at this.

local dance school. and one of the moms of another kid. worked in tv. she had said to one of the um dance. school teachers. we want to audition a couple of kids or. i know someone that's auditioning kids. for this. this disney club show. so i went along to this audition with my. nan because my mum was at work. and my nan obviously this was completely. not my nan's world whatsoever my dear. nan sylvia so we went into london to.

kensington to this. audition space and there were loads of. kids i felt completely out of place they. were all from the big dance schools anna. chers sylvia young's and they were all. talking about that and saying oh. what show are you doing they're all in. les mis or whatever and i was going oh. [ __ ] i haven't done anything i go to a. local dance when i do little shows in my. local theater i had done nothing. of any prestige and i felt like i.

shouldn't be there and i was trying to. not let that get the better of me but. again i think naivety and lack of. experience really. helped me like benefited me in that. circumstance and i went into the little. audition room and i was told to speak to. the camera which i'd never done before. because i'd just done stuff on stage. where you're dancing or. acting out a scene. so i thought why not am i talking to a. camera i don't even know. what that is or how i meant to do that.

so i was just me which was what they. were luckily looking for i was just a. kid. chatting about stuff that i liked which. was like. hanson and watching top of the pops and. zoey ball and i talked about it with. enthusiasm because i was enthusiastic. about those things as a kid. and i somehow. blagged my way on to this. tv show on itv you know a big there was. only five tv channels back then or maybe. even four so it was a great exposure.

piece and. but at the same time due to a lack of. social media. i was allowed to grow naturally and to. make mistakes and to be bloody awful. without much critique because there. wasn't really any. so i had you know amazing tv producers. teaching me the ropes and letting me. experiment and work out who i was on. camera and um and i've discovered i. really liked it. imposter syndrome you talked there you. said um you said a sentence there you.

said i felt like i shouldn't be here. how was that the first sort of real dose. of imposter syndrome that you had. encountered in your life without a doubt. because i. i moved out of my safe little world of. being in. east coast where i slip all these little. suburban towns that i was living in or. doing the theatre. school in. where i had all my friends there and it. was safe and they all. had the same background as me and. nobody had been in that world so i felt.

really safe and then moving into this. other world with stage school kids or. then eventually being on a tv set with. professional people from the worlds of. tv who'd been doing it for years i felt. wildly out of place. but. i don't think that's ever left me. i think i've always. kept that feeling like i don't really. belong in it. one of the things i'd noticed from. reading about that part of your life is. that you'd kind of it seemed like you'd. started to kind of overcompensate for.

that feeling of um imposter syndrome by. working exceptionally hard and it's. funny because you know when you were. describing your mother's work ethic. there it sounded somewhat similar just. that we've got to keep this steam engine. running we've got to keep shoveling the. coal into the engine or it's going to or. it might stop right i think that's i. guess an element of coming from. suburbia into the the limelight and. somewhat not feeling like you're going. to be there is that that fear that it. might also be taken away at some point. right without a doubt i mean i don't.

think you lose the feeling of your your. upbringing you might lose bits of it and. work your own you know your own thought. processes into life but i think it's. always there and i'll probably always. have a kind of working class. ethic because that's what i was brought. up with. so i have always over compensated. and i think i still do but i'm a little. braver in not conforming to what is. expected of me and having to do. mainstream tv or having to do.

any mainstream broadcasting i'm trying. to do. more of my own stuff where i feel i can. experiment more be. truly authentic. and not have impostor syndrome because i. don't in my own space luckily when i'm. doing my podcast or i'm writing or we do. a festival whatever it might be. i do feel. comfortable and safe but not in a way. that dead ends me there's always room to. improve. new things to learn.

more people to listen to which is a key. part of what i do now but i don't have. that horrible. feeling of i shouldn't be here on this. fancy tv set with all of these people. that belong here i i don't think i've. ever lost that weirdly and it maybe. feels like a bit of a teenage hangover. but. i i've never felt comfortable in that. space or like i truly belonged there. really what was the adverse consequence. of not feeling like you belonged there.

throughout that period of your life not. being myself right because i think. i mean. not you know i wasn't sort of running. from myself entirely but i was certainly. i felt for a long period of time. too boring or too. average to be. in that position i thought you had to be. complicated or exceptionally something. to be in that space whereas i don't.

believe that anymore i think everyone's. got their own worth and their own. beautiful spirit that is worth paying. forward but at that time i thought how. can i be here this kid from the suburbs. who what do i know why am i. in front of the camera. so. i certainly. i guess over accentuated who i was or. was a bit too smiley a bit too. enthusiastic a bit too everything. to. i get i guess get people to like me i.

wanted to be liked that's the name of. the game a lot of the time in that. industry if people like you you have a. job if you're not liked. you don't have a job so. i wanted to be liked and i wanted people. to think i was interesting and that i. had some worth and had something to say. i didn't believe i did so i had to. pretend that i had some worth there and. and make it look like i did whereas now. with the work i do i believe through my. own life experiences the people that. i've learned from.

the work that i've put in to be able to. write the way i do and interview people. the way that i do i can see my own worth. i can feel my own worth but for years i. didn't know what it was. you've had. i don't know how long it was but you. know at least probably a decade there of. living. almost you know professionally every day. um living out almost like a character or. being someone for the public for the. radio for the tv.

um a lot of people have that in their. own lives in in various ways they might. be doing something professionally which. isn't like truly in aligned with who. they really are. tell me about the consequence of that. then of 10 years or or more of playing a. role and your life being. um not authentic to who you actually are. what's the consequence of that. i think you start creating your own. barriers it's only you that that's doing. that because we've all got the freedom. to be more authentic or to try new.

things or to just. rock up to a situation fully as you we. can all do that it's scary but we can do. it and as you say i know i didn't do it. for years and years probably way more. than a decade certainly you know the. first 10 years of my career i didn't. know what that meant i just turned up. and was as happy as i could be and. enthusiastic and read the lines try not. to slip up over my words and went home. and felt chuffed and then the next. decade in my 20s that's where i felt. like oh i'm a bit boring i need to kind.

of be a bit more exciting or whatever it. is that people want me to be. and. you stop yourself from moving into new. areas because you just think this is. what the public want or the boss wants. so i will be. enthusiastic and or if i was on the. radio i will be happy and improve. people's day by. bringing music and happiness whatever. whereas now. i'm just me so if i'm not feeling great. i will turn up to.

a podcast a radio show or if i'm writing. as i am. i did a recording just before christmas. the day after one of my cats had died. and i'd had my cat for 20 years. and you know you've got a pet you know. it they're part of your family and i was. deeply grieving and i thought i'm not. going to cancel because i think there's. value in me turning up like this but i'm. not going to pretend that i feel any. different so i'm going to. answer with these emotions bubbling up. and i'm going to be.

me and i have much less. care for people's response to that or. their reaction to it i just think. there's worth in all of it. if people don't listen to that they. don't have to that's that's their choice. but i'm not going to pretend anymore. that i'm anything other than how i am on. that day. but i've had to. forge a new path to do that i don't. think i could be. doing this. in the old spaces that i worked in. there's not as much room for it.

i'm not talking about that in a. derogatory way because i had a great. period of learning from doing all that. stuff. but the new path that i've forged which. isn't necessarily as mainstream and. isn't necessarily as. shiny or celebrated or whatever. but i can be truly me. and there's room to move and there's. room to change and. it feels liberating i guess i feel very. lucky you know that's a lucky space to.

have created. so you were. in essence living a very one-dimensional. life through that period and i've you. know i speak to i speak to jake about. this sometimes about how when you're on. tv you're there to do a very sort of. one-dimensional job i've learned from. doing this podcast that it's this. podcast is like therapy for me because i. get to be multi-dimensional i get to be. my true self and honest and also the. medium of podcasting as well allows for. depth and context that five-minute. little news clips on good morning.

britain don't allow and you describe. that as liberation um i. i find that like incredibly um. incredibly important and it's i was just. thinking as you're saying it why. um a few of the sort of tv presenters or. radio presenters i've spoken to share. that experience of their professional. lives. inadvertently making them. one-dimensional at some point in your. life you um. you kind of uh. not rebounded but you um you pushed that. life away. that kind of one-dimensional sitting. there doing tv or radio.

can you tell me about the build up to. that moment and and what. it was that made you realize it was time. to move on or move forward or to leave. it was so many things um. i guess there's only so much discomfort. you can take and it and it's not. due to the people i was working with or. even the medium i was working in i just. didn't feel right in it some people are. made for it and they can do that job way. better than i could.

and they have a level of comfort there i. don't think i ever found that level of. comfort i don't know why. um. but also i had stuff going on personally. that meant at one point in my life i. felt really really awful really awful i. was in a period of depression. and. i think when you're in that headspace. not much makes sense anymore and you. have to start questioning everything.

if you want to get out of it otherwise. you just get stuck and i did get stuck. for a long time and i went on medication. and did everything that one does to try. and get your head above the water but. there has to i think be a moment of. self-inventory where. you look at everything in your life. objectively and you start to question. everything and i still have to face. those fears every now and then because. at the moment i'm promoting a new book. and i'm going to have to go on live tv. and i'm going to have to go on live. radio.

and it fills me with acute anxiety. thinking about those things because. there are parts of that experience that. feel very synonymous with. not a great time in my life. so. i've had to make a lot of very difficult. decisions where there have been moments. where i've been either offered lovely. jobs or i've been doing lovely jobs but. i haven't been able to do them it's not. even been something that i've. cognitively had to think about so i. cannot put myself in that position at.

the moment i might be able to one day. but at the moment where i'm at with my. life and. healing from stuff and also i've got. young kids. i don't want. too much extra stress where i don't have. to have it. but also. i i don't want to sit here. professing like i made all these. decisions i left everything i started a. new life because also i haven't been. offered many tv shows it's not like. people have been going please come and.

do a big mainstream tv show it's current. my own feelings about. that world have coincided with me not. being offered very much and at times. being sacked i use the word sacked. you never get officially sacked you just. aren't on the show anymore and then. someone else is doing it you're still. sacked so you kind of get take taken off. the show for. whatever reasons they've changed up the. format whatever. and. so that kind of coincided with me not.

feeling like i was really enjoying a lot. of a lot of it but i probably would have. still my ego still wanted to be asked. and to be doing the odd. bits and bobs on tv. um that speaks to the law of attraction. a little bit there because you know it. does it does reading about what you've. uh in your new book about what you say. about the law of attraction and because. you know 13 years old you were trying to. pull that world into your life and then. at some point you decided. probably. inside before maybe vocally because of. your ego that you no longer were.

enjoying this and then it started to. fall away yeah i guess it happens to all. of us. in many ways whether it's about work or. people you you know that you have in. your life whatever it might be that. you do hopefully start to act less from. your ego and more from a very. deep. you know sort of gut. feeling place. and. that's a good thing. um but it means that there are going to.

be changes and the people around you. will react in certain ways to those. changes and you might feel slightly. wobbly about those changes at first. because you know when i sort of decided. that i wanted to leave radio one i'd had. a great time at radio one i'd had some. bad times personally whilst i was there. but the opportunity in itself was a gift. i was very lucky to have had that job. and sort of interviewed all these. brilliant musicians no matter what level. i was interviewing them at it was a. privilege to do that.

um. but when i decided that i needed a new. chapter and i needed something new and a. new challenge i don't think i had a. single person say to me that's a great. idea you know everybody was sort of. going why are you leaving you have a. brilliant job on a brilliant radio. station interviewing all these. amazing people so i think you can make. those decisions they won't often be. backed up by everyone around you. but if you know it's right. that little voice will only get louder. and louder and i had that for like.

probably six months before i decided. okay i've really got to do this now. that voice was just again and again. saying. try something you know try something. else do something new you know give. yourself a new challenge. but you've got to. i guess you just have to jump into the. void because you're not going to have. everyone go great idea i'm here to. support you. let's go there is a moment where when. you are acting from an authentic place. that you just have to jump what was that. voice saying. in the lead-ups you leaving radio one. what was that voice saying every day as.

you came into work you sat there for. three hours how did you feel what was. what was going on in your mind. you know what although i had that. authentic. voice. and that sort of niggling feeling that i. needed to do something different there. was also a voice going. like who do you think you are leaving a. job like that i still had that voice. going on who the hell do you think you. are leaving that job what are you gonna. do next good luck i had that going on so. i had these two voices one saying. try something new.

you know there's there's another chapter. to be had. i found the pressure of being live every. day. all encompassing at times and. the anxiety of that. was tough. and i also. didn't love having routine that was the. same every day because you do have a. very structured day when you've got a. live show every day. and part of me felt a bit like oh i'm. still feeling like i'm a bit at school. with that kind of structure. but as i said this other voice was going.

what are you doing you're an idiot. you're full you never you're out of that. whole world of music where you get to go. to the brit awards and you're respected. in the world of music because when you. leave you're not it's quite instant all. of a sudden you're not invited to the. brit awards and you're not respected in. it because you don't have a key. party you don't have a platform to go. i'm playing this song because i love it. you're not important anymore so your ego. takes the bruising and that took about i. don't know five or six months to go oh.

god that still hurts a bit that no one. really gives a [ __ ] about me anymore and. then. you get over it so none of it's easy or. a quick like i left that and then i. started happy place. there it has been a bumpy road with lots. of ego bruising and lots of like. worrying that it's all going wrong and. then brilliant highs of. magical things coming out of the blue. but that feels exciting rather than just. going with the easier route i guess. which it was it was an easy it was an.

easier route. again reading through your story and you. talked about um experiencing depression. there for the first time i growing up. when i first read this word depression i. thought okay that must be something that. happens to other people right that's not. i don't and as i've as i got older and. started speaking to a lot of. psychologists and people like johan hari. who wrote lost the book lost connections. um i my view on these mental health. disorders and various sort of mental. health conditions started to develop and. evolve to realize that we're really all.

every single person listening to this. now is i'm capable of experiencing one. of these disorders it's actually part of. being human these are in the view of. many but not always i don't think. anything is exclusive to anything but um. is a symptom of the way. we we live our lives sometimes right is. that accurate. from your experience in terms of it. being a symptom of something yeah um i. never go into too much detail about the. circumstance but i was dealing with some. heavy [ __ ] and things i didn't want to. deal with.

and i didn't know how to cope and. i think prior to me having that quite. lengthy period of depression i don't. know how long because it's quite blurry. a year. two years. it could have incrementally been five i. don't know there was a real intense. period where it's very very bad whereas. on medication and i. didn't really want to leave the house. then it incrementally got a little. easier and there were bad patches again. so it's a little bit blurry around the.

edges. but much like you growing up i don't. think i even heard the word growing up. it certainly wasn't something i heard in. the 80s or 90s i wasn't exposed to it. yet my mum has dealt with depression and. i probably sort of knew that growing up. but didn't know there was i just thought. that's my mum i didn't think there was a. label for it or there was it was a thing. but when i was writing my first book. happy. i said to my mum would you write a piece. for it about. depression i'd never said that word out.

loud to her in in context of her own. experience and she literally sent back. this thing within about 10 minutes. because it was all there ready to go. but we'd never had that chat properly so. although i didn't know the terminology. there was a feeling of it and i. understood it and my mum's mum my nan. sylvia. she had nervous breakdowns. when my mum was younger and i heard a. little bit about that so i knew it was. sort of there in the family so you know.

how much of it is hereditary how much of. it is circumstantial i don't know and i. think a lot of mine was circumstantial. and then. understanding that has led me to look at. lots of different ways to. you know eradicate awful memories move. on from the past. eradicating ugly emotions like shame. and. learning to like myself i think that's. been one of the big.

sort of movements in my. own healing. and you talk very openly as well about. um panic attacks again something i was. none the wiser to until you know it's. funny because i look back at when i. started to learn about people's panic. attack experiences i look back and think. i think i had one yeah i remember a day. where i was i had a very strange. physiological reaction in my body and. started feeling really overwhelmed and. like i had all this energy building up. but i couldn't quite understand what was. going on with me and and when i started. reading a little bit about your.

experiences with panic attacks you know. when you were on that motorway that day. for the first time um it kind of rang. true to the experience i had. talk to me about your what the first. panic attack you had you know. what you learned from that experience. and and uh the journey you've gone on. with that and with anxiety and panic. attacks well i didn't know it was a. panic attack like when i had that. experience on the motorway i was with my. friend claire. and we were driving home from somewhere. we've been it was probably a two-hour. journey.

and all of a sudden i went really hot. and i was like i didn't say anything to. claire i was like what the [ __ ] is going. on took my coat off round the windows. down she was like do you mind shine the. windows freezing i was like i'm just. feeling a bit weird. and then i started to feel like i was. sort of leaving my body which is my. experience of. panic attacks and i pulled over. and it's even weird talking about it. because i can draw that i can feel it. it's under the surface i haven't had one. for a while but i that feeling is so.

familiar to me now this was probably. five years ago. my heart was racing i had no idea what. was going on so i went and saw a doctor. and was like there's something wrong. with my heart you need to check out my. heart and see what's going on with me. because i've had this. strange experience did all the tests i. lost nothing wrong with you fit and. healthy thank the lord. brilliant next you know the next week. i'm faced with some. quite nerve-wracking tv prospects of. being on live tv at this point i hadn't.

quite realized i had an anxiety around. it i was just plowing through it. on the way in i was. getting that same awful feeling of i'm. leaving my body i had it in the makeup. chair i had it before i went on air i. had it during the time i was on air. it felt torturous like i don't want to. have this why can't i just go back to. what i used to do i used to go on tv and. be like so relaxed or be on radio like. online shopping i was so chilled out and. then all of a sudden. this thing it felt like.

something was like infiltrated my neural. pathways like why is this happening. and that's where. i started talking to lots of different. people and. you know again i thought panic attacks. happened to other people i was like i've. never. had that i don't feel panicked i feel. like i'm leaving my skin. that's a panic attack. to some people there are different. manifestations of it obviously. i think if you put me in the situation. of having to do. one of those triggering jobs i would.

most definitely still have one which is. why i don't really put myself in that. situation anymore. again i don't think it'll always be the. case i'm sure i could do. more therapy. more everything. and get to a place of comfort. i can't be bothered at the moment i. can't be bothered. to put myself in a position where i. don't feel safe i'd rather. forge new pathways work-wise and feel. safe and i'm very fortunate that i have. the propensity to do that i haven't.

always but i do at the moment so i'm. going with it. um all of my panic attacks are around. work i don't really have them around. social settings i don't really have them. around. any physical activity it's around. work judgment of others. etc. so i just have to at the moment not put. myself. in that position. quick one at this time of year we always. see a huge spike in the amount of people. that are buying huel and joining the. huligan camp i guess um and i think that.

speaks to the role that heel plays in my. life but also the role it plays to a lot. of people's lives which was as we start. to get a little bit busier typically we. fall into the trap of going for. convenience food and convenience food. for a lot of us means like junk food or. lots of sugary stuff whereas huel kind. of safeguards us in that part of our. lives it's completely nutritionally. complete as you'll know from listening. to this podcast and i say it every. single time i've had more tags on. instagram of people joining huel in the. last i'd say couple of weeks of january. that i have in the whole last quarter of.

the year so if there was a time where. you're thinking about giving it a shot. here's my recommendation try the salted. caramel flavor that's my personal. favorite we all have different. preferences the banana flavor i. absolutely adore i love the cinnamon. swell flavor and also the protein powder. the salted caramel flavor again that. sits on top of my fridge over there is. incredibly useful if you are working out. and you're trying to get high levels of. protein into your body give it a go tag. me on instagram let me know what you. think. and come and become a huligan with me. you said when you left radio 1 it was a. a bumpy road now you know everybody in.

their life at some point will have to. make a big decision to leave a position. of certainty which might be certain. misery in the pursuit of. something a bit more uncertain and. unclear whether there isn't a promise or. a blueprint. of how to achieve the thing. they wanted to get to their happier. place no pun intended. so so tell me about that bumpy road so. you leave you make the decision i'm. leaving radio one what was the the bumpy. road first of all i think all change. requires a bumpy road i don't think any. change for a human is like smooth and.

great even if like you say you've left. something that you don't like. to follow your heart that's a brilliant. thing to do but i don't think there are. many people that would say that was a. smooth transition. so i. left radio. um i had my second kid well second slash. fourth because i've got two step kids. i had the fourth in our family little. honey. and i. didn't really have much work going on i.

didn't really know. i was still doing celebrity juice at the. time which was a lot of fun. um. and then i started talking to my. publisher. about. writing something that felt a bit more. honest. and we hadn't had a conversation about. anything at this point to do with my own. experience for life i don't think i'd. told. i'd probably told three or four people. that i had experienced depression and i. wasn't feeling great i still probably. wasn't feeling that great at that point.

there was big highs and lows and luckily. my publisher was really up for me just. sort of. seeing what. you know came out of me if i started. writing. so i wrote the book happy. which was my first. go at writing about anything. true and real to me or even talking. about it i hadn't ever done an interview. that felt particularly. like properly raw. and luckily lots of people liked that. book which made me think oh maybe i. could. do that a bit more.

and less of the. being the other person that's on the. telly. so very very slowly. this sort of snowball effect well i. wrote two other books calm and quiet. and then. podcasts were kind of becoming a bit of. a thing. and there was you know me and my manager. had talked about schleider podcast and. everyone was going what's the podcast. and we were like well should we just try. anyway. it's just sort of chatting. so i started being my friends to start.

off with or like just ringing people. please come on this podcast remember. emailing dawn french like will you call. my podcast i don't know what that is but. if you come to my house yes so i went to. her house in cornwall she was one of my. first guests we're very lucky that. that we were able to make that happen. and um and you know happy place sort of. started. we started the ball rolling with it and. other things started happening but again. it wasn't a sort of a smooth ascent or. trajectory to.

where we're at now. there have been loads of moments where. probably more just mentally and. internally i've felt like. am i getting this right. is this going somewhere. have i actually got anything to say. you know. is my. is my platform helping people and doing. something with positive impact it's. probably been more cognitive than like. real problems happening of course have. been problems and.

things going wrong but the bigger. problems have been in my head. and me worrying about stuff and feeling. like i'm a failure or like i've made a. big mistake or that. there's something wrong with me nobody. wants me on the tv i'm flawed i'm too. weird or i'm too outspoken i don't know. what it is i'm i just don't fit into. that anymore and i've had to let go of. worrying about that. because it doesn't really impact me so. much anymore i don't have to be on the. tv to do the other stuff that i'm doing. but there was a big mental hangover of.

there must be something wrong with me. because people. don't want me on their screens and all. the bosses don't want me on their. screens anymore so i've had to let go of. a lot of old. thought patterns that do not serve me. so i can really. forge ahead clearly like with proper. clarity and with all of my energy. to do something that's different that's. over here that i really want to do and. is that an ongoing. practice or battle yeah i think it's an. ongoing discipline which sounds really.

boring but i think a lot of this stuff. is it can still be fun but i think you. have to stay. dedicated to being nice to yourself and. not letting these mental patterns. stop your creativity or stop you trying. new things or stop you putting yourself. out there. so. yeah i guess it is a daily thing and. also it's undulating because some days i. feel like yes i've got so much. excitement for this podcast that i'm.

doing coming up or i can't wait to write. this new book and then other times. i don't feel like that i wake up feeling. like oh my god you know i'll go into the. compare and despair thing of everyone. else is doing. things slicker better. look at stephen and all his cool cameras. and look at all these lights i don't. have this and you get into all of that. mindset. so i. i undulate some days i feel great and i. feel really grounded in what i meant to. be doing and other days i feel like i'm.

flying all over the shop and i don't. know what the hell i'm doing and that's. okay and i think it's important to talk. about that so people don't. look at you know people in the public. eye or people who are doing things well. and think oh they know what they're. doing they feel great all the time. i don't know do you feel like that i. don't feel great all the time no no so. with with that with that that discipline. do you think the objective is just to. get to a better place and not really to. like overcome. the limiting belief it's just to get to. a better place is that the objective for.

you. i think the objective has to be always. just to like myself. because then the rest sorts itself out. it doesn't matter where you're going. what you're doing how you're trying to. do it. if you like yourself. none of that. really. matters so much but also. equally as well as it not mattering so. much it will all happen with more ease. anyway because you'll make better. decisions you'll set clearer boundaries. you'll turn up. truly as yourself because you like you.

no matter what day it is or whatever. you're going through. you'll hang out with people that make. you feel good you'll do more of what you. love you'll do less of what you hate. you'll have less mental torture because. you'll think oh no i don't deserve to be. hearing all that crap today. and you'll talk in a kinder voice to. yourself so for everybody that has to be. it's not even a goal it's just let's. give that a try again today and just see. if i can like myself a bit more which. brings us i think nicely onto your brand.

new book bigger than us um. which is about the power of finding. meaning in a messy world and you're. talking there about liking yourself part. one of that book talks a lot about i. just want to say before we get into the. book that it it really is just a really. remarkable read you're a very very good. writer and i i picked up the book and i. thought maybe i'll skim whatever from. there from. from.

and i. opened it and i just found myself sucked. into it and i said this to you before we. start recording because you're so. descriptive in the way you write that i. felt like i was it wasn't a book it was. more of like a movie i was inside the. scenario so you start in in part one of. the book talking about this sort of. self-compassion experiment. so tell me about what this. self-compassion experiment is and and. what it what it taught you and how it. helped you with those limiting beliefs. well first of all thank you because i've. had not so much feedback on the book. because it's not out yet so it truly.

really means a lot that you've said that. oh yeah because this is where this is. ahead of time it's out now everyone it's. out but at the time of the recording i. haven't had as much feedback only from. luckily my publishers who really like it. but i'm it really means a lot that that. you got that from the book so i'm i'm. super grateful um. but self-compassion i didn't really know. where this book would take me. i knew the subjects i wanted to cover. i didn't know what the themes would be. at the start that kind of appeared later.

down the line as the book kind of formed. but the first section did very much um. end up. sort of seeped in the theme of. self-compassion. and i guess the starting point was. talking to wendy who is a shaman that i. know wendy mandy and she's lived with. many indigenous tribes and. uh shamanic people the world over i. won't say how old she is but she's done. this for decades and decades. and every message seemed to go back to.

self-compassion. and i've always known it's important but. i've certainly not practiced it because. you do have to practice it and i've. certainly not nailed it i've allowed. myself to get back into these loops of. like this acerbic voice that says i'm a. piece of [ __ ] etcetera. so i was like. if wendy's saying this again and again. and again and then so is the next person. i interview and the next person i. interview. then. i've got to. focus on this and it is a matter of. focus you can focus on all the things.

you don't like about yourself. or you can choose to you know accept and. acknowledge that there are some things. you're not as good at and. mistakes you've made everyone has we are. human we are fallible humans but you can. focus on the stuff that. you really like about yourself and that. you really want to celebrate about. yourself and that you know and that you. notice the gifts that you have because. we've all got that every single person. has got. something to give. so it's a matter of putting your focus. and attention here or putting it over.

here. so that was what i learned writing that. chapter was i need to focus more on this. stuff and not keep worrying so much. should i have said this have i upset. that person is it awful that 10 years. ago i did this thing that i really. regret you know we've all done that. there's no single person even the shiny. movie stars we see at the cinema or. people we see on instagram with 20. million followers they have all made. mistakes they all have ugly bits of. themselves they don't like silly things. they've done awful things they've said.

slip-ups they've made. you know they've done things not from a. benevolent place we've all done it. but we can choose to not. live in that area the whole time and. like focus on it and drown in it and we. can look at the stuff that we do. want to celebrate about ourselves with. acceptance you haven't got to ignore and. shun. the shadow side because we've all got. that but have an acceptance of it. alongside celebrating the good stuff. i think is really what i learned from. writing that that chapter and in.

practical terms how do you celebrate how. do you celebrate. the good stuff and try not to. let the mind wander away when you wake. up in the morning and you start. immediately thinking about oh my god my. my hair is this my nails are that why. haven't i done this i'm a bad mum et. cetera as you write about in the book. how do you what's the practical kind of. like discipline that you've engaged in. to be more self-compassionate i'm quite. lucky in the fact that i'm a very. obvious person so i can see myself very. obviously my habits are obvious and. they're big.

and my big one. is to work too much and to be a. workaholic and to put the kids to bed. and then keep working until i'm. exhausted and my husband's like shut. your [ __ ] laptop like what are you. doing just. stop like what are you doing. and sometimes that is coming from a. place of wanting to do well some of the. time. a lot of the time probably 80 of the. time. that is coming from a place of i'm a. shitty person i don't deserve what i've.

got i don't deserve to have the job that. i've got i've made mistakes i'm an idiot. i have to work harder if i am to believe. that i deserve. where i'm at. that's where that's coming from so i can. see it it's obvious when i go into. workaholic mode i go. oh i don't i must be not liking myself. very much now i'm beating myself up. about something. within me and it's deep rooted you have. to get down to that place of. what is this that i don't like about. myself. and on the days that i choose to do.

something nice for myself and i'm not. talking about anything fancy i'm talking. about going for a walk that to me is. bliss. headphones music walking i'm in heaven. going for a walk. resting like allowing myself time out. allowing myself time where i'm not. worrying about emails and. how well the podcast is doing and here's. my book selling and just being and. hanging out with nice people or having a. friendly chat with someone then i know. that my actions are coming from a place.

where i'm at peace with myself that day. so i'm obvious it'll be different for. everyone but you can probably spot the. patterns where you're in a little. negative cycle. versus the ones where you're being. nicer to yourself. what have you done practically as well. in your life to avoid putting yourselves. in scenarios where your your self. comparison is going to be triggered. because i imagine in the in the. mainstream like tv world i'm like just. tiptoeing into it dragon stands out this. week so you're starting to get invited. to these places that i don't really want. to be at. don't go yeah yeah i'm like with my team.

i know that i just said no i don't want. to go no i don't want to go like i get. some really great invites and i'm just. like no i don't know. like obviously one of the probably. one of the only things i've done in. recent times was go to jake's charity. thing which was thrown out which was so. nice i think i cried at one point that. was gorgeous outside of that all the. other invites as glamorous as they are. it's just not me and i'm like um but. what do you do on a practical level to. avoid putting yourself in scenarios that. you know. i mean social media is the global. scenario of self-comparison but. to to to stop yourself being sucked in.

to i don't think you can i don't think. anyone can in this day and age so. it's less about. the situations i put myself in. and more about how i choose to receive. that information because it is just. information whether it's looking at how. we quantify our popularity this new. framework of look how popular this. person is and that must mean something. or if it's just in your own friendship. group you haven't been invited to a. party or whatever the hell it is when we.

try and. look at where we fit into it and how. high up are we on the ladder or whatever. or how far down am i on the ladder it's. how you receive that information it's. not reality we're all. beautiful beings of benevolent light we. we are that that all of us are that yes. we'll make mistakes yes we'll do shitty. things but we are all beautiful amazing. humans that are deserving of love and. kindness whether that's from ourselves. or other people. so the rest of it is a bit of a game.

show so i think i just try and extract. myself mentally from it meaning too much. and just go. you know like i say like some. it's undulating on a bad day where i. already feel like [ __ ] myself i. could look at the podcast chart and go. oh my god i'm not even in the top 10. what does this mean i'm not relevant. anymore la la and then i'm off on a. cycle of hell with breaking myself about. how crap i'm at my job. or. on a good day where i've woken up and. i've done a few things i know you make. me feel good i can then look at.

something like the podcast chart or. instagram and go okay there are people. who are enjoying the work that i'm. putting out there. i'm grateful that's amazing that i have. the opportunity to talk and do a podcast. or write a book or whatever it is and. i'm i'm naturally more inclined to feel. grateful than i am to worry about where. i fit into it all so it's. much less about where i put myself now. because i think for all of us it's. inevitable that we're going to see. ourselves in some sort of system or some.

sort of. framework of society and just look at. how i'm imbibing that information and. how seriously i'm taking it. not easy. it's not easy and it's. much easier for me than it is a lot of. people there are some people that. have. such a difficult situation in life. because systemically they're not looked. after people in the disability community. if you can't get into a shop because. there isn't a ramp there. where do you feel you fit into society. you know that is.

unfair that is. that is not a nice place to be. where you are. whether it's physically or mentally. unable to slot into parts of society. because the framework isn't existing. i'm lucky because. i am able to. move around in society. with ease mine's more cognitive and a. silly mental game i play with myself. because of. you know in the past thinking i'm a. shitty person etc so i think we have to.

notice how much of it is practical which. is unfair and we need systemic change. versus how much of this am i putting on. myself. how horrible am i being to myself. why am i comparing myself to people i. don't know etc so it's easier for me to. do that than for some people where. systemic change is desperately needed. and you're you're quite an introverted. person as well aren't you in terms of. you don't really you're not out there. partying or going to these glitzy.

glamour events or anything do you. consider those mentally to be unsafe. places yes i think i used to believe i. had to go because people had to see me. out and i had to be seen in a cool place. wearing the best dress or whatever. and you know occasionally i'll go to the. odd thing if there is some meaning or. support for a friend or whatever. but i haven't been to something like. that in a very very long time um and i'm. an introvert in the truest sense. if i've done a podcast of my own or i've.

or when i finish this episode with you. today. i will be tired. like an old lady like i need to go home. and be quiet i'm going to take my doors. to swimming later just me and her. and we will just have some quiet time. like i'm not the sort of person that. after i finished even if it was like the. most amazing episode and it was this. cool big celebrity i'm not the sort of. person that then wants to go out and. drink champagne to be like yeah let's. all be in a gang and celebrate that i am. drained.

drained to my call and i need to go to. bed early and read a book before bed and. be on my own so although my job is to. communicate and i love talking to people. more than any other thing on the planet. i need something to counter balance that. and that is. solitude and tranquility. and. just peace and being a hermit quite. frankly. solitude tranquility and being a hermit. in the in the first part of your because.

where you talk about your relationship. with meditation and what it's taught you. one of the really interesting sort of. conclusive points you make there is that. it taught you that our thoughts we. aren't our thoughts. and i think we all obviously we all go. through life thinking we are our. thoughts because that is the voice in my. head it's it's the control center so if. it says stevie a piece of [ __ ] i'm gonna. go okay we're a piece of [ __ ] yeah so. talk to me about that disassociation. you've you've learned with your thoughts. and was that a moment in your life that. that the penny dropped or. i think. i've heard a lot of people say it. i've had a lot of people say you are not.

your thoughts and i've gone oh that's. kitsch i'm like that's cool. but i've never really applied it and. then i think again writing this book and. talking to jambo specifically in the. book about this subject. and he had a really brilliant and sort. of a more fun way of describing that. voice in our head especially when we go. into meditation and i'm not a daily. meditator. i do a lot of walking meditation rather. than seat which is actually luckily a. sort of lovely buddhist concept not that.

i'm buddhist or aligned to any religion. but it's very much done by buddhist. monks there's seated meditation. and walking meditation and i can deal. with walking meditation a lot better i. can go out into nature with no phone. nothing and just walk and look around me. and i enjoy that more than sitting and. there's you know that's a great. introduction for me to get into it. but jambo talks about this moment where. you sit down and you try and have this. peaceful moment and then you've got the. voices they start and they might be.

really mean and it might be like you. said you're a piece of [ __ ] or it might. just be. oh my god i haven't emailed back this. person or just silly lists of things we. haven't done. and he likens it to. you you're listening to your ego you're. actually sat there without any. distraction of a phone a laptop noise. being around people and you're listening. to it and you have to go to your ego. come here babe what's going on. get come it stop it's fine you don't. need to waffle on about i know this.

story you've told me this before. and you you listen to it because we. don't in the day we're trying to. distract ourselves from that voice. oh my god i'm just gonna eat some. biscuits because i can't deal with all. that crap in my head right now i'm gonna. or i'm gonna work i'm gonna work until i. am exhausted or i'm gonna just scroll on. social media we'll do anything to not. listen to that. and there's nothing wrong. with that egoic voice we've all got it i. don't think the key or the aim is to. banish it from our minds and go.

this voice can't exist i must be egoless. because unless you're living. on a mountaintop in scarlet robes as an. amazing enlightened being it's highly. unlikely in the modern world we're going. to have that experience so we listen to. it and you can have all the thoughts and. the chatter going but you don't have to. believe it and you don't have to act on. it you just simply. listen to it. and then you and then you might. afterwards after your meditation you. might go for a walk or you might even.

like another thing i learned in the book. do some non-religious praying where you. go right i just noticed that my ego kept. saying i'm a piece of [ __ ] because this. happened and the voice in my head this. ego kept saying that i am not worthy of. whatever it is. so whoever you decide to pray to. whatever it is it doesn't have to be a. god or. a being it can just be a prayer sent. outwards. please help me with this awful. thought process that i have i don't want.

it anymore i want to notice and. recognize my own. worth and love so it's quite a nice. combination that i learned about in the. book meditating. followed by by a non-religious or if you. are religious a religious prayer. beautiful but it's quite a. powerful kind of listening and and then. asking. sort of balance. on that listening and asking in the. second chapter of your book you you talk. about how. just like one thought for your life had. really. this one unhelpful thought that.

underlied pretty much everything in your. life had um caused irregular moods it. caused you to turn down work it caused. you to think not so well of yourself and. as you describe it in the book feeling. like your rib cage was outside of your. heart your body for 10 years and this. underlying thought you had which you've. talked about there is that you didn't. deserve better. um. we all have this right we all have this. these underlying. self-opinions i'll call them of. ourselves that are inadvertently and. sometimes usually unconsciously like. running the show of our lives.

if i was to ask you. how does one find out what these self. opinions are. um so that we can be liberated from them. how do i do that i think you get quiet. because the more we distract ourselves. the less. we know about ourselves. and we're just living via other people's. projections of us. so we become what your work colleagues. think of you you become what your. parents think of you become what.

your kids have said to you you become. the projection. the only way you will. really. understand who you are and hear that. voice. is by getting quiet. and that's not a one-off thing like oh. i'm just going to get quiet today and. see what happens it might be through. journaling through writing you know i've. just re-read the artist's way you do. your pages every morning you just write. what comes to mind. you're getting to know yourself god i. think this i didn't even know i was. thinking that you know it just spills.

out of you if you don't like writing you. could speak it into your. memos of your phone or a dictaphone if. anyone owns one of those still um. or you could just go walking and listen. to that internal voice and know there's. nothing wrong with it it doesn't matter. that that internal voice keeps saying. something quite negative. you've just got to hear it and know it. and then. understand that it is not true. like that is a given for anyone whatever. that awful thing is that that's that.

sort of cycle of thoughts in your head. i'm a piece of [ __ ] i'm not worthy i'm. underserving i'm a bad parent i'm a bad. partner i'm a bad friend. they are all lies like all of it. we've all made mistakes we've covered. this we've all made mistakes we've all. done things wrong we will continue to do. so for the rest of our lives but that. doesn't mean any of that stuff's true. we're just getting up in the morning and. trying. we're all just getting up and trying so. all of that stuff in your head is other.

people's projections it's not true. and that is sometimes hard to swallow. because people think. no it is true i've lived my whole life. knowing that i'm a bad. whatever it is. and that almost keeps you. and i've had this personally it keeps. you safe and comfortable in that because. you don't try new things and you don't. push yourself. and you don't put yourself out there. because i can't i'm bad at that i'm an. idiot i'm not worthy of greatness. abundance whatever it is so you keep.

yourself small and you build walls. around yourself. it's much scarier. to rally against that negative thought. and to have to try new things to try. again that's even harder. to try something you failed at or. supposedly failed at. but if you if you understand that those. thoughts aren't true. you give yourself the space and freedom. to try new stuff or to get into a. relationship again or to. have a best friend again if you got hurt. whatever it is it's scary to do that.

stuff i've certainly been trapped in. walls like that before and believed that. negative voice because it's been quite. comfortable weirdly. but if you let them go and you. decide to scare yourself a bit there. there's all sorts of things you could be. doing in trying there's an expanse of. stuff you could learn or experience in. life so. i'm by no means a place where i'm like. nailing all this stuff but i've learned. even more by writing this book and i'm. even more willing. to give new stuff a try and to not.

listen. to this voice that is yabbering on in my. head the whole time. you are like quite quite obviously a. testament to the power of journaling and. writing and um. putting your thoughts and feelings out. into the world because because you've. done that you've written so many books. you've recorded so many podcast episodes. it's quite apparent to me that the. self-awareness you exude is a is a. consequence of that and for me one of. the really unintended but really um.

fortunate consequences of starting a. podcast was you had to look at your. thoughts a lot. and the diversio started with me in my. bedroom opened up my diary at the end of. the week and read out what it says and. that meant that i had to record a diary. and so i'd finish these podcasts after. week one two three and four and i'd go. oh my god i'm like my my self-awareness. is becoming heightened i'm understanding. things about my childhood that i never. knew before you know we often think. therapy is sit in a room speak to. somebody else but therapy for me was. writing in my diary and looking down on.

the page right and so i just think that. i wanted to just highlight that because. i think it's the most important. understated easy dare i say thing that. someone can do is just to like look at. their thoughts on a regular basis. podcasting forces you to yeah um like. making quotes on instagram again forces. you to look back at your experiences and. not just let them pass you by without. the value extracted so i just wanted to. dwell on that for a second um because i. think everyone should do it and i say. this a lot i say everyone should like. keep the diary and just like right every. every week yeah. it's so therapeutic to do that so.

therapeutic i mean i've written a diary. since i was. a tiny kid wow and i've said i've said. this before on my own i only said it. recently i only felt. i guess kind of brave enough to say it. out loud but i thought it would have. some worth because there'll be people. who have a similar thing going on. i wrote a diary since i was i don't know. 12. nearly every night wow i had books and. books and books had. so when i went through my very bad. depression i burned all of them they.

went i didn't want. to have a past so they went. my dad had there was a big incinerator. at work he took a big bag in said don't. look at any of them i want them gone. and i did regret it for a while. although i've also made peace that it. was actually. a bit of a ceremony a ritual for me to. like it went up in flames you know a lot. of good times were up in flames but. there was stuff i wanted in there gone.

and i know you can't erase your past and. that's not what i'm looking to do but it. felt like i could at least start again. so i have started writing again and i. won't burn these ones and it feels. peaceful and. without standing self-indulgent it's. important it's important to me it's not. important to anyone else it was. important to me that i take that time to. do it so i i would always encourage. people to give it a go. you you've sat and interviewed so many. amazing people um and i've got to speak.

to a couple of you know really great. people as well and i started to notice. some like gender differences. um. in. success ambition in. how certain people were much more. comfortable speaking about. their goals their finances their targets. their ambitions than other people what. have you noticed in this arena. oh yeah i know you're hinting dude. it's hard as a. woman and i can only speak from.

experience a working mum. to. talk about certain things in a certain. way ambition being one because for a man. to say. you know i've got great ambitions it's r. it's been historically celebrated i'm. not saying anything out of terms it's. very obvious. for women that's quite a new thing. obviously there have been mavericks and. amazing women over the years who have. had huge ambition been game changing in. history they're probably less celebrated. in history but they've been there. but i do think it's still seen as.

a different choice for women to say i'm. i'm very ambitious i am ambitious highly. ambitious. um. i'm also a mum and i'm a nurturing mum. who wants to bring her kids up well for. them to feel loved and supported and. safe. and it's hard to do both well i try but. i've had to let my social life totally. slide off the face of the earth to do. two things really well. or i'm not saying like my standards are. better than anyone else's for me for me.

to feel like i'm doing them well. that i can cope with the level of work. and that i can cope with what's going on. my kids at home. it's really bloody hard whereas i look. at a lot of men in that situation who. have kids. and they don't have to worry so much. about being. vocal about the nurturing side of it if. they're off. doing a job overseas or whatever it is. there's no judgement whereas for a woman. to go away and. if they are working abroad or if it's.

like a female musician going on tour. the judgment around. how what what their kids would be doing. and who's looking after them etc. is huge. and commented on i've had people i had. someone this is an example. someone said to me on instagram. a year or so ago and again no judgment. to this person this is just a story but. i had posted. me doing a yoga workout or i don't know. some sort of workout and they said. i feel deeply i don't know what it was.

upset that you've posted this. for all moms out there that don't have. the time to do. a yoga workout or a workout this is. really difficult for me to see. and i and i just said to her. would you say the same to joe wicks. because he doesn't work out every day. and i don't think anyone's going who's. got you where's your kids who's got your. kids you've got two young kids where are. your kids because they've automatically. without thought gone oh his wife's got. the kids so he can go to the gym and do. a workout. i work more than my husband so yeah i'm.

going to say to him i'm going to take 20. minutes out to go for a walk or to do. yoga. or can you do the school run so i can do. it. like it's. but it's it's a subconscious thing. people aren't sort of having these. thoughts and going oh this isn't fair i. need to bring this up this is. subconscious historic. you know problematic territory that. we're in. and. you know my parents generation were. probably the first generation to be. juggling.

on math work and kids. so this is very new for women before. that like my nan's. they were sort of almost i think told by. my grandad no you're not working you've. got to bring up the kids we're at work. and they did it so this is new we're. still figuring it out and it's still. really hard and it's still really. painful and there's so much judgment. i had no meant to do about it but you. know keep trying and encourage the. younger generation of women growing up. now my daughter and step-daughter. to.

move through with more ease. yeah um it's actually something i. noticed from doing this podcast was just. there was just this clear distinct. difference between. what it was really it was when i'd. invite a very very successful woman onto. this podcast to talk about her success. there was this kind of timidness. and especially when they if they were. also a mother there was this real. timidness that i just didn't see in the. men they would be very out there here's. how much i'm making it's 17.3 million. and and i would say and you know i'd.

have i'd become friends with the person. and speak to them um after the podcast. for many many months and whatever and. they'd highlight that to me and say it's. different for you steve i could sit here. now and say how much money i'm making. how hard i'm working all of these things. i could also post it on my instagram and. i swear to god everyone would just clap. yeah but i know that chrissy chella who. is in a similar position really. successful. so you know running businesses if she. did that i know what the comment section. would look like and i just i feel like i. have an obligation to share that and to.

talk about it a lot because it's not. fair. sadly though the comments would probably. be all from women which i hate to say. yeah. so we've been indoctrinated by the. patriarchy. maybe more so than men or certainly an. equal pegging and i had a chat with. kathleen moran about this you know it's. unfortunate that. the patriarchy is screwing over men as. much as it is women but it's also. indoctrinating women as much as it has. men. and we're fighting against it but we're. also still judging each other and going.

how come she's got to do that well it's. all right for her she can do this or. whatever it is rather than celebrating. each other and going that's inspiring. that you've done that alongside being a. mother or not just being a woman in. business still not easy with or without. kids there's still judgment there's. still you know. all sorts of things to do with that. hierarchy that don't make sense for a. female to enter that system. so. there are you know. but i don't want to be too downbeat. about it because also that is.

in itself there is excitement there for. women to make great changes to that. and to be part of a real positive. movement where we celebrate each other. and see for the younger generations that. eradicated so i think when there's a big. problem we also have to look at the. excitement in changing that because. that's a great big juicy challenge there. are you optimistic about it yeah. i am because i think you're in a real. position of power here as well to change. that well i hope so i think the bolder i. get in saying those things like yes i'm.

ambitious yes i want to be. you know this or yes i am successful or. whatever it is with without cringing too. much. great but also i don't want to. underestimate. how young women today teenagers young. people in their 20s females. are already challenging that that. without the likes of me or anyone older. they're doing it because they see it and. they want to feel differently. and that you know i'll always be in. support of that but i think they're.

already doing it because i think. the generation that comes next always. acts as a reaction to what's been and. we're still climbing ourselves out of. this hole. so. hopefully that's happening and i'm. seeing you know like even within my own. management my management company the my. managers who look after me. it's headed up globally by a female not. a similar age to me who i respect hugely. she's called mary i love her. and two other people that i work with. that are in my.

management team holly and sarah. females and they're they're doing. brilliant work and they're leading huge. teams of people. so. i'm just happy to celebrate them and to. celebrate that and to hopefully just see. more of that going forward. bigger than us. the book is um largely centered on this. idea of meaning right that's the that's. the kind of overarching purpose for. writing the book it's trying to find. meaning in in a messy world and at the. end of the book in part four you start.

to conclude that you know the real um. meaning in life is connection in its. various forms so i guess my question for. you is what is it that um for you now is. bringing meaning in your life what does. meaning mean to you in your life now and. uh yeah where where do you find it. i find it in really. simple places like going for a walk and. that sounds a bit too sort of casual and. flippant but i do. i try and go for a walk every day. and i went through this morning super.

early it was sun was still rising it was. pissing with rain it's bloody horrible. but when i'm out i might be listening to. music i might go without my phone and. just walk. this could sound very cheesy but i'm. often brought to tears. because. i. i extract myself from the oh my god my. kids are late for school or i haven't. done this email or how am i doing with. this or what's failing with that. or i just let it all go. and i'm lucky to live near a very green.

space so i can walk around and look at. trees and see there's green parrots in. the park and. whatever else is going on in nature. and be humbled by it because it's. humbling when you really. notice it or at night look at the sky if. you're lucky to live in an area where. there isn't too much light pollution and. see one star. that might not even be there anymore. because. we can't talk about physics it's gonna. blow my head off but you know what i. mean yeah. look at the greatness of what is going.

on around us rather than at your phone. or the smallness of oh my god my house. is a [ __ ] how everything's messy and. look outside of that like i have to do. that every day. so i don't get bogged down with am i. doing this right where do i fit into. society how successful am i. all of this greatness and how short life. is. how short life is and that in 200 years. none of us are going to be here that's. humbling it's not bleak that's humbling. to get up every day and think. there's a whole new load of generation.

like people and things will be happening. and systems in place and technology or. whatever it might be that i won't be. around for. so i have to get up and be grateful and. do all that stuff i want to do today not. next year when i'm braver in 20 years. when i'm older and quirkier and more. eccentric. i've got to do it now. so i have to find that meaning. connection. this is bespoke it'll be different for. everyone but for looking at the bigger. everything.

noticing that i'm on a floating ball in. space. noticing that all of this is changing. always and there are trees thousands of. years old and i'm just 40 and what do i. [ __ ] know. i have to get myself out of this small. structure that we've created on a. societal level and look at the. hugeness of all of it and remember when. you look at that hugeness that we know. [ __ ] all. because we don't even we can't even get. our heads around the fact like what is. infinity what how no i can't even go. there we don't know anything.

we know nothing. and we have to keep coming back to that. as soon as we start going yeah i know. everything about this and that you don't. i know more than you. small small lives small. i want big expansive i don't know. anything. i'm here to learn here to learn yeah and. i won't be here in however many years so. gratitude it's funny because it's i mean. yeah what you're saying is just is. beautiful and very very true and. powerful but from that i was i was i was. realizing that.

my own self-importance is a curse right. so like if i log into instagram the. little like thing will tell me how. important i am today and then i'll get. sucked into that or if i'm a good enough. mother because i didn't pack the right. thing for sports day and this like the. the system we've created the kind of. like matrix we live in sucks us into. believing our own self-importance and. that you know the color of my my nails. really is consequential to anything and. as you look up at the stars you realize. that you are just a respect. the universe doesn't really give a [ __ ]. about you. and that is liberation it's liberation. from all the pettiness that consumes our.

mind but i also think as much as we are. i don't want to use the word. insignificant but as tiny as we are in. the grand grand scheme of things. i also alongside that truly believe that. we are supported. by all of this greatness. not necessarily by the societal. structures that we see and we are told. about constantly but something bigger. something inexplicable something that. you might not even be able to label or.

want to label but i do believe that. there is support. and what does that mean for you because. you start to write about this in the. book well i have never aligned with a. religion so it's harder to. talk about it eloquently because when. there's the infrastructure of religion. you can talk about a god a way of being. and a system that works which is. beautiful. i've never had that growing up i've. never aligned or felt drawn to it but i. deeply feel that i can communicate with.

the world around me which in turn when. you get on this macro micro micro level. is within you it's all the same thing we. are made of the same stuff. so that might link to. non-religious prayer and having a. communication with that something bigger. it might also be the law of attraction. which you touched upon earlier where you. are manifesting the things that you're. cognitively thinking about and focusing. on you're seeing more of what you're. focusing on so you know look for red.

cars when you stop listening to this. you'll see bloody loads like look. and see what you're wanting in your life. and more of it will appear. lots of the things i talk about in the. book. describe and support that notion there. is something bigger at play that we are. part of that we. can feel supported by which will. hopefully then. you know eradicate loneliness or people. feel disconnected from the world around. us and. then force more into sort of habitual. negative cycles or whatever it might be.

so. there are lots of ways i think you can. tap into it and that you can. explore it and have fun with it it's. exciting like doing a little ritual in. the ritual sub um chapter i love doing. rituals that's such a gorgeous way of. honoring a moment for you to place. meaning into something for you to. seek the meaning find it and honor it. there's meaning in everything we just it. just passed the spikes we're in a bloody. rush. so hopefully in the book i go through. lots of different ways in which.

i you know i can. articulate what that means to me and. some of it might resonate with you some. of it might not but for me i found each. subject very exciting it was a new. communication tool to. communicate with everything around me. the way you approach those topics as. well you approach it in a very humble. way in a very a way that feels very. inclusive in the book so like i could um. investigate the idea of like. non-religious prayer um because it.

didn't feel like wishy-washy you. described it in a very human way as. being. you're speaking you're kind of putting. your thoughts out there you don't know. who you're doing it to. but you know a lot of people when they. write about these topics would probably. give it a name and a yeah whatever so it. felt very very relatable and i actually. probably when i was reading that thought. i could see how non-religious prayer. would help me in my life yeah what is. what is non-religious prayer and i'm so. glad that you've said this because that. was my whole aim for this book. was for this to be. everyday stuff yeah exactly it's not woo.

it's not exclusive to a certain. demographic who can afford to do it or. they're in the right time and place to. do it this is we can all do this is the. basics. this is the basics of life that we're. sort of ignoring. and it's the simple and it's the fun and. it's the curious. and they're the things that we usually. lose because we're in a bloody rush so. so non-religious prayer which my friend. donna lancaster has taught me about. beautifully. i was probably already doing it to an. extent because i've always.

had some sort of communication with. sometimes i'll say dear universe or. whatever sometimes i just speak. or i'm just in my head. like before i go to bed now i'm more. sort of disciplined about it in the fact. that i'll put my head on the pillow. and i'll say first of all a prayer of. thanks for whatever's gone that day or. just the general state of how i am i'm. healthy i'm in a warm bed. god thank you for that like whoever. you're talking to thank you for my warm. bed i'm so lucky.

then i'll go for a list of people that. i want to send a message of prayer to. you know whether it's someone that's in. need of of help of support. and that they find some comfort and then. i'll go to the tricky a bit which is to. ask for something that i need. and i find that bit sometimes quite hard. again because of everything we've talked. about. um. i deserve this i deserve a little help. in this department or some guidance. and i think as long as you think of it.

as a fun curious thing to do. what's the harm in it you're not signing. up to some sort of like. new religion or cult that you're joining. it's a fun thing to try to have. and watch for the results that's what i. would say be curious in. what happens next and the guidance if. you're looking for the signs. that appears like weird coincidences and. stuff that happens. that you can't ignore you can't ignore. them the signs are everywhere if you've.

got your eyes open. some people are just so unwilling to. step outside of the um. step outside of the measurable yeah and. what i mean by that is well i can't you. know i've got kpis for my life so if. i've got an instagram i need likes if i. do this i need money i need if i do this. i need this what you're talking about. there is going for a walk in the park. how do i measure the return on. investment. if i do a prayer at night time how do i. measure that this is working what do you. say to people that think in that school. of thought which is a lot of people. specifically men. i would say measure how good you feel.

measure how like talking about. how connected you feel is difficult. because you can't quantify that you. can't see it. you know it hasn't got a flavor or a. color. what is that feeling of connection. so first of all look at all the times. where you felt disconnected we can all. remember a time we felt. hugely disconnected from other people. from nature. when you are buying [ __ ] you don't need. disconnected from the natural beauty.

that is around us when you're bored and. you're sat around thinking life [ __ ]. they're all moments of disconnection. so just when you feel the opposite of. that. you're you're getting the return. and also i think it's we've got to stop. looking at. the return. we've got to start looking at just being. and it's not always about being. the best the most successful. having the most whatever it is. quantifying anything and it being the. most it's about being part of a.

a huge network of people and animals. please can we not forget there's. beautiful animals out there that we're. just totally disregarding. all day every day who have probably more. of a right to be on this planet than we. do. we are part of a huge. massive connectivity and we can feel the. beauty of that we can feel that. energy pulsing through us whenever we. choose to we deny ourselves of it all. day every day. and we're about the singular the insular. what can i get what can i do for me.

it's not. global you know parts of the world more. so in the east. still have much more connection. obviously to nature but also to. community to each other to not looking. for a social pecking order to be part of. something. when you feel part of something. you feel alive and it hasn't got to be. like you being at a party with loads of. people but you feeling part of a. movement a collective in a non-exclusive. way it's not about then others being. outside of that feeling part of.

something just feeling your connection. to nature. that is a beautiful starting point in. any day to feel that connection the rest. is a bonus if you can feel that that is. a lovely lovely thing it's not a return. like what can nature give me what can. other people give me how can i feel part. of this rather than separate from it our. separateness has caused us. so much pain. and we don't even see it. and that like so perfectly um speaks to. the journey you've been on where you. said the measure how you feel because as.

we when we start this conversation um. you shared some stories about being in. the radio and in tv and in those. environments where you probably. weren't as good at measuring how you. were feeling but you were more focused. on the external um quantifiable kpis of. or society's society's view of how you. should be feeling based on the material. success of your life. um really really powerful i think. sentiment to to end on is that idea of. measuring how you feel i do want to ask. because you know this is a business. podcast that's the category we sit in. happy place big brand now what's your.

what's your it started as a i guess it's. kind of from what you said it started as. this book which developed into a podcast. now it's a festival you have a. publishing business what is your what. you want happy place to to be. i do have. big ambitions for happy place. and. we've tried to sort of sit as a team and. work out what is the goal. and we keep landing on the same thing. and it is to help as many people as we. can in varying ways.

and in fun ways and in ways that are new. to them whether it's a book a festival. an expert a live experience. something digital. we're constantly wanting to connect. people for them to feel less alone and. to help them in some way of course. within a business structure so there's. lots of business stuff that goes behind. that sort of nice benevolent thought of. helping as many people as we can. so we're looking at loads of ways to do.

that and to introduce people to the. subjects. that that sit within a happy place if. it's your first time. learning you know or hearing about. non-religious prayer you're pretty. cynical about spirituality or even. you're moving into the territory of. looking at mental health for the first. time that hopefully there's something. within our business plan on our platform. that doesn't feel scary to you or alien. to you and that will allow you to. listen to a new conversation or learn. something new. hopefully at a very accessible or free.

level. um to. connect people for people to feel less. alone and for us to reach as many people. as we possibly can doing that. and do you think are you in a happy. place now. yeah. i am. i think i've got a lot more layers to. peel back. i think i've got a lot more. um. [Music]. digging around to do to get to a place. where i am. truly authentic in myself i still have.

that romantic notion or image of myself. aged. hopefully say 80. with loads of crazy jewelry and wild. gray hair and being completely eccentric. and out there. and i i wonder why i'm not just doing. maybe not the gray bit although who. knows but well i'm not just doing that. now i see myself as hugely authentic. down the line. and i'd like to have the courage to step. into that sooner. so i think the quicker i do that the.

happier i will feel and that's just an. everyday thing of waking up do i feel i. can truly show up as myself today. or. i don't i feel vulnerable i feel fragile. maybe i don't today but i'd like to be. more and more. in the space where i can just be me. and like myself for that person i think. that's where my happiness will live. that picture in my head of that. eight-year-old with the rings and the.

gray hair what's the difference between. that person and who you are now in in. real terms what's the. what's what is the difference uh well. hair dye being obvious um i would say. um. i still do things because i feel i. should sometimes. because i think well i. how could i possibly. sell a book do whatever. unless i do the bit that i find. uncomfortable whereas i hope to be at a. level one day.

where. i'm just doing the stuff that really. makes me happy and i know that that's. a real privilege to be in that place. but i would like to at the age of 80 to. have. earned some. i guess space to just doodle around. doing things that i really like. and to hopefully encourage others to do. the same. without the [ __ ] yeah and without the. voice in your head going oh we should be. doing this she should be doing that that. will be i'll be so bored of that by then.

that'll be just so dead to me. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast which is um this is the diary. and what we ask is the previous guest to. write a question for the next guest so. and i actually and i swear to everything. that this is the truth i don't see the. question until i open this book so. sometimes i can't read their writing so. bear with me if i can't but our previous. guest wrote a question for you they. didn't know who they're writing it for. um and i'll tell you i might tell you. who they are later but i typically don't. um because it might distort the way that.

the question okay interesting. if you had a twin. what is the most important bit of advice. you would give them. i think it goes back to everything we've. just talked about and that is to be. 100. you. don't mask bits of yourself you don't. like. don't pretend to be. fancier cooler smarter than you actually.

are. literally just be you. i love that. thank you so much and you know what. thank you thank you so much for writing. that book because um for someone like me. who's going on my and you know i told. you about my girlfriend she lives in. bali she's the reason i have crystals. around my neck as we speak. um for someone that's going on that. journey of understanding the more. metaphysical parts of life and. spirituality and uh energies and these. kinds of things it felt really inclusive. as i said so but also the way the book.

is written is really enjoyable because. of as i said how descriptive and. wonderful it is so um and that was the. first book of yours that i'd read but i. remember thinking oh my god if they're. all like this then i want to read all of. them i'll send you them i'll send you a. whole bunch. they can be door stops if they're not. your thing but um hopefully you'll like. them but i really don't i don't tend to. blow gas at people's asses if i don't if. i don't really like something i'll just. talk about something else but it was a. really really phenomenal book i think um. i think my listeners especially are. going to really really enjoy that book. and it is out right now um anywhere it's.

called bigger than us um and yeah it's. out now 20th of january it came out so. yeah so i hope everybody enjoys it thank. you for your time thank you stephen i so. appreciate it thank you so much thank. you. oh. [Music].

[Music]. bye.