Exercise Doesn't Make You Lose Weight! Doctor Jason Fung

This calories in calories out model. doesn't work at all. If you're trying to. lose weight, what you need to do is Dr. Jason Fung, the founder of intermittent. fasting whose influential work could be. the key to a healthier and even longer. life. Every continent is seeing this. increase in obesity, but we put the. blame on the individual. The problem is. there's something wrong with the message. we're giving people and I can go over a. few examples. First of all, exercise is. really good in a number of ways, but in. terms of weight loss, it's actually very.

very small effect. The whole idea that. you need to eat as soon as you get up is. just false. We know that from twin. studies that 70% of your risk of. becoming obese is due to genetics, but. it doesn't explain why the population. became much more obese. And we know that. you can't cure obesity by saying eat. fewer calories. It's about fixing the. hormones that are behind the calories. If you want to lose body fat, you. actually need to extend the period of. time that you're not eating, so you do.

some intermittent fasting. There's all. this data showing that fasting activates. the body fat, increases your energy and. your concentration. A treatment. available to everybody for free and it. will be healthier for us. So I need some. advice then. What does your fast look. like? What food should I be giving my. body and in what proportions? The first. thing you got to do. is. I've got to talk to you about these new. injections people are getting to lose. weight. I think.

Quick one. This is really really. fascinating to me. On the back end of. our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9%. of you that watch this channel. frequently over the lifetime of this. channel haven't yet hit the subscribe. button. I just wanted to ask you a. favor. It helps this channel so much if. you choose to just subscribe, helps us. scale the guests, helps us scale the. production and it makes the show bigger. So if I could ask you for one favor, if. you've watched this show before and. you've enjoyed it and you like this. episode that you're currently watching, could you please hit the subscribe. button? Thank you so much and I will. repay that gesture by making sure that.

everything we do here gets better and. better and better and better. That is a. promise I'm willing to make you. Do we. have a deal? Dr. Jason. Hey Steven, how are you? I'm really. really good. This book here, The Obesity Code, unlocking the secrets of weight loss. Why. did you write this book? What was the. sort of driving motivation behind.

committing what must have been a very. long part of your life to this subject. matter? Uh it's it was actually a very. interesting sort of journey of discovery. for me. So I did my training in. nephrology, which is kidney disease, so. I'm a kidney disease specialist. And I. thought about weight loss sort of very. conventionally, sort of calories in. calories out, just watch what you eat. sort of thing. And that's what's taught to all doctors. is that it's extremely. unhelpful for people. It doesn't work at.

all. It doesn't work for patients and it. doesn't work for for for doctors even, right? So doctors who want to lose. weight, they don't they don't use calories in. calories out because it doesn't really. work. And we all know this. Um every. person has sort of counted their. calories and almost all of them failed. to succeed. So the whole point was how. to get people to lose weight. And so I. started to look into the literature and. I started to read about it and so on. I. got very very interested in it. And.

again, I I started to become very. unhappy with the discussion about. calories in calories out because the. whole point was that people had this. idea that it was energy balance, right? And there's this sort of energy balance. equation, which is. uh calories in minus calories out equals. body fat, right? Because body fat is a. way to store calories. But that's not a very helpful sort of.

description of how to approach the. problem, right? The problem is not that. people didn't realize that they had to. eat fewer calories or increase their. calorie expenditure. The problem was. why were they eating more calories than. they could expend, right? And it's. because the body is. is being told to store energy, right? That's the way it is. That's why you're. taking in more calories or you're. storing more calories is because your. body has hormones that tell you to store.

calories. So there's a hormone called. insulin, for example, and if you give. people insulin, so. inject them with insulin, which is a. drug for type 2 diabetes, almost everybody gains weight. So if you. give somebody insulin, they gain weight. If I gave you insulin, you would gain. weight. It has nothing to do with the, you know, your willpower, for example. If I gave you insulin, you would gain. weight. Why? Because I'm giving your. body the instructions to store energy.

So you're saying that weight gain and. obesity in particular isn't a. function of calories in calories out. It. is a. function of hormones. It's a function of. hormones and it's sort of you have to. think about it in sort of levels, right? So calories in calories out is true. So. body fat is a storage is it's a way to. store energy, which is calories, equals. calories in calories out. But that's not. the real question. The question is why. are you storing more calories than. you're expending? And it's because.

you're telling your body to do so. So. for example, if if you take another. equal I'll give you an analogy. Say. alcoholism is. alcohol in minus alcohol out, right? Same same idea. Or if you have a room, it's the number of people how how full. it is is how many people enter the room. or exit the room, right? So same same. idea, right? It's absolutely true. So. alcohol in minus alcohol out. equals how drunk you are. equals how.

drunk you are. So alcoholism. So can you. simply cure alcoholism by tell telling. an alcoholic, "Oh, just drink less. alcohol than you expend." It's like, yes, you can say that and it's. absolutely true, but it's not useful in. any way because you've never gotten to. the really the deeper understanding of. why that person is taking in more. alcohol, right? You have to get to that. next level and say what, you know, it's. like going one level deeper. Why? Why. are they drinking more alcohol? Well, maybe they're depressed. Maybe they're.

addicted. Deal with the addiction. That is the way. to deal with alcoholism. You can't cure. it just by saying drink less alcohol, the same way you can't cure the obesity. by saying eat fewer calories because. you're not understanding why the body is. is storing more energy. With the amount of information we now. have, the amount of science we have, one. would expect that obesity levels would. be coming down. Yeah, unfortunately, if you think about.

the way most people think about it, it's. mostly still in calories. Even in the. academic centers, they all think about. sort of calories, how to get calories. down, how to reduce calories. And I. always and I always say, "Well, it's not. about the calories, right? It's about. fixing the hormones that are behind the. calories." Like cuz you can choose to. eat fewer calories. Yes, that's true, but you can't but you have to ask. yourself, why are people eating. um so many calories, right? Well, it's. because they're hungry. You can't choose.

to be less hungry and therefore you have. to really talk about controlling the. hunger and controlling the hormones, which are behind the calories that you. eat. And that's going to be much more. successful to you. If you take two. different foods, equal number of calories, and you eat them, the hormonal response to those calories. are completely different. So you eat two. slices of white bread and jam. All that energy the so insulin spikes up. because it's very high in refined. carbohydrates. All that energy goes.

straight into your body fat and you've. left none of it for for for energy for. your day. By 10:30, now you're ravenous. and you go get yourself a low-fat. muffin. Again, pure carbs. Insulin spikes up, all of that goes. straight into your your fat stores. Why? Because you told it to. Remember that. when you eat. white bread or muffins or refined. carbohydrates, you're going to have this. insulin spike, which is going to tell. your body to store energy. If you eat an.

egg, you don't get that spike in. insulin. So that that energy that you've. taken, those calories, are there. You. can use it. And so what happens? Well, that keeps you full during the day. If. you're telling your body to immediately. store those calories as body fat, well, guess what? Over time you're going to. gain body fat cuz you told your body to. do that. If you eat the egg and insulin's not. spiking up, well, you haven't told your. body to store that energy, so it's going. to be around for you to use all day. long. And you won't be hungry. And you're not. going to be hungry because your body's.

like, "Why do I need to eat again?". Because, you know, you're you're you're. you're basically have taken the energy. that you need, I've got it available, right? It's sort of like if you go to. the the the grocery store, right? You. can store food in the refrigerator. Suppose you go to the grocery store, put. all your food away, lock it away in the. in the refrigerator. Now you have. nothing to eat, right? You're going to. say, "Oh, I need to go out and get some. more food, right?" Same thing with your. body, right? So if you take food, but. you've also spiked up your insulin,

you're going to lock away all those that. energy immediately into into your fat. stores. It's not going to be available. for you to use. Well, you're going to. say, "I'm going to go out and get more.". So you haven't controlled the hunger. that's going to lead to the caloric. intake, which is going to lead to the. weight gain. People look at this through. an evolutionary lens and say, you know, we just didn't have this much food, so. it's the abundance and um ease of access. to food, it's the fridges that we now. have, it's the you know, we never had.

fridges in our home. So, people point at. it and go, "Well, that's why people are. getting gaining weight and you know, we're suffering with obesity at epidemic. levels." It's just because there's more. supply. Yeah. is taking advantage of it because once. upon a time. if we didn't eat that. jam and toast, then we would have, you. know, maybe not have been able to find. food for another 2 weeks or something. Yeah, I don't think that's the whole. story because if you think about it, and. people again. make that assumption that we don't have.

any control over. our body fatness, right? So, they say, "Well, it's available, so you're going. to take it, right?" In fact, that's not. true because we actually have a number. of different. hormones that tell us to stop eating. Okay? So, if you eat, you cannot simply. keep eating and eating and eating, right? If you go to an all-you-can-eat. buffet, at some point you have to stop. because you're full. Right? So, there are systems, very.

powerful systems within our body that. tell us to stop eating. So, you eat. food, there are. stomach stretch receptors, for example. So, as your stomach stretches out, it. sends a signal to your brain and says, "Stop eating." If you eat a lot of. protein, it activates a hormone called peptide. YY, which tells you to stop eating. If. you eat a lot of dietary fat, you. activate a hormone called. cholecystokinin, which again tells you. to stop eating. And these are very. powerful. If you look in the wild, there.

are no obese antelope, there are no. obese lions. Why? Because how much body. fat you you carry. is actually very important. If you are. obese as an antelope, you're going to. get eaten. If you're an obese lion, you're not going to catch any food. So, therefore, it's going to correct itself. So, if I overeat now, my body will. basically overcompensate by burning off. the extra calories? It It absolutely. So, if you eat a huge meal, right? You eat, you know, you go to a.

big wedding or something like that, you. eat a huge meal, the next day you're. probably not that hungry. If you eat a giant steak, so you're. activating all these satiety hormones, peptide YY, cholecystokinin, you're. eating all this food, well, you may not. be hungry for the next day. So, that. means that my body has some kind of. baseline. weight. Yeah. It will know whether you. should eat more or less. So, there's a. this concept called the sort of body set. weight, which is a sort of thermometer.

That is, your body sets a weight that. you should be at. And if you go above that weight, or if. you eat too much, it will activate. hormonal systems to bring it back down. If you don't eat enough, it will also. activate hormonal systems to bring it. up. So, it's like a thermostat that you. set you have in your room. For example, you set the the room temperature, if it's too hot, you're the the the the. room activates the air conditioning. If. it's too cold, it activates the heat.

Your body actually acts the same way. If. you gain too much body fat, your fat cells, for example, will. produce leptin, which is another. hormone. The leptin tells your body to. stop eating. That's really interesting. So, in the case of obese people, their set point must just be really. high. Yes, and that's the crux of the. matter. Why is that set point being. overridden? Just like if you have a room. that's too hot, and you look and you. say, "The thermometer set for room. temperature, why is it so hot in here?".

Then you can say, "Okay, well, what's. the problem?" And the problem is not, you know, heat in versus heat out, right? That's That's a very simplistic. way. Same thing, if your body has too. much body fat, you got to then think. about why are you overcoming the normal. compensatory mechanisms. that are happening, that are stopping. you from eating. A lot of it relates to. processing foods, of course. So, if you. take out So, remember I talked about. stretch receptors in the stomach, right?

So, you eat natural natural foods, there's a natural break. It It stretches the stomach, you stop. eating. Well, what's one way? Pull out all the. fiber, process the foods, turn it into, say, a very fine dust. That means it's. absorbed extremely quickly into the. bloodstream. So, that means that pure. You've got pure carbohydrate basically. mainlining it into your IV like like an. IV. Your. glucose spikes way up, your insulin. spikes way up. It's completely. unnatural, right? If you eat pure.

carbohydrate instead of eating it with, you know, proteins and fats, it's going. to go It's going to shoot way high. That's unnatural, and that's going to. overcome the natural. tendencies to for you to stop eating. So, you you know, you've you've. basically overcome that that that that. protective mechanism because you've. ultra-processed the the carbohydrates. If you don't eat any protein, if you. don't eat any fat, you're not activating. peptide YY, which is the satiety. hormone. You're not activating.

cholecystokinin. All of a sudden, you're. eating, you know, 500 calories of white. bread, but you have zero satiety. Or if. you drink a Coca-Cola or a soda, for. example, I've always, you know, thought. about this. It's like, how can you take. a thousand calories, for example, in one. of those giant sodas you get at the ball. game or something, and don't feel full at all? Whereas if. you took a steak that's a thousand. calories, you'd be like, "I'm pretty. full. I don't really feel like eating.".

You drink the soda, you're like, "I. really feel like eating some chips or. popcorn or something." Why? Because it has zero satiety. Interesting. So, if I'm if I've got a. baseball stadium, what I want to do. is I want to make sure people get a soda. because then they'll also buy the chips. But if they just eat the chips, you know, maybe they won't buy anything. else. But the soda's going to. increase my revenue. because it'll basically just pass right. through them. It'll pass right through.

them. They're going to store the all. that energy as calories, but they're. going to want more because you haven't. made them full. Right? So, the the the whole point is. that you have to think more than about. the calories. There's more there than. just the calorie story. There's this. whole hormonal balance. You're saying. that overeating isn't just a choice, it's a hormone-driven behavior. It's a. hormone-driven behavior. I mean, the. whole thing about obesity is is quite. interesting to me because. if you think about obesity, if you think. about. in the United States, which is where I. get a lot of my data from, um, you know,

you have maybe 70% of people overweight. or obese, and it's going up every year. It's been going up every year since. 1977. And if you think about that, it tells. you that. the problem is not willpower. The. problem is not the people. The problem. is the environment that they find. themselves in, the food environment that. they find themselves in. Because you can take an analogy. Say you. have a hundred children. One of them. fails. Well, that might be the child. They didn't study. What if 70 of them.

fail? Would you say it's it's each and every. one of them's fault, or would you say. it's more likely that it's the teacher's. fault? I think it's more likely that it's the. teacher's fault. So, if we have a. hundred Americans and 70 of them are. obese, the problem is likely not an. individual willpower problem. The problem is likely that there's. something wrong with the message we're. giving people, the information we're. giving people, and the food environment. that we're finding ourselves in, which. is dominated by this sort of calories.

in, calories out thinking. And what's really unfair, of course, is. that we put the blame. on the obesity or overweight. on the individual. And we say, "Well, they let themselves go, and they didn't. watch themselves. They weren't careful. It's their fault.". And that's the stigma that comes with. this whole calories in, calories out. thinking because we say it's their fault. because they could choose what they eat. It's like, yes, they could choose what. they eat, but they didn't choose the food. environment that is telling them to eat.

all this ultra-processed food, that is. making all this ultra-processed food. available to them, that is telling them. that all this ultra-processed food is. good for you. So, leptin is this hormone. that essentially brings down my hunger, makes me less hungry. Is it therefore. possible that. people are becoming leptin resistant? There is leptin resistance. The question. again is why? And the way to think about. it is it's sort of this sort of balance, right? So, insulin, if you give people. insulin, like if you think about causes.

of obesity, what causes people to gain. weight? Well, if I give you insulin, you'll gain weight. If I give me. insulin, I'll gain weight. So, insulin. causes weight gain, whereas leptin will. cause the opposite. So, it's sort of. this seesaw. Body fat is nothing more or. less than. a store of energy, right? And you only. store energy when your body tells you. Our entire body runs on hormones, right? Nothing happens without the hormonal. system being activated. So, insulin is. pushing us to gain weight, leptin us is. pushing us to lose weight, and what's. happening is that one is sort of.

overcoming the other. Insulin is. overcoming the leptin. If obesity isn't. about a lack of willpower, and it isn't. just a case of people being lazy or all. those things that sometimes some people. stereotypically assert, I've also heard the counterargument that. obesity is a function of our genetic. makeup and uh we inherit obesity from. our. parents, you know. Is there any truth and merit in that? Um, it's it's yes and no. So, yes,

there is a very strong sort of genetic. predisposition to obesity. So, if you. take, you know, somebody with a family. history and look at the genetics, about. 70% of your risk of becoming obese is. due to genetics. And we know that from. twin studies, for example. What do we. know from twin studies? If you take twins Um raise them sort of. in different environments, you know, they actually turn out very. similarly. So, we know that there's a. there's a genetic component to obesity.

So, when they they sort of do the uh. calculations, they say about 70% of. obesity is sort of genetically related. So, if you take a. a twin that comes from originally a. family that were obese, and you put them. with a family that are not obese, Yeah. the child will still likely become. obese even with the family that are not. obese. Yeah. So, you. the this was done in obviously they they. had uh. twins that were sort of separated at. birth, compare them after they've grown.

up, and say what's the sort of. correlation between the weight of the. two. And it's about 70%. So, you have. somebody who's very overweight and, you. know, twin A goes into one family, twin. B goes into a second family, you know, twin B uh. is going to be more prone to gaining. weight even if they're with a thin. family, right? So, the environment has. some role, but it's it it's the genetics. have a very large role, too. 70% of it? About 70% is it is is genetic. So, there.

is. However, the part that's important is that that. doesn't explain why we have obesity in. the last 40 to 50 years because the. genetics of the world population. has not changed. So, if we're seeing. more obesity now, and then remember this. is not a. a USA problem, it's a it's a worldwide. problem. We see it in Asia, we see it in. Europe, we see it in America, we see it. in South America, we see it everywhere. Uh we see it in Africa. So, every.

continent is seeing this increase in. obesity. Therefore, it's not due to this. this recent change within the last 50. years is not due to a change in. genetics. So, while yes, it's true that. there is a strong genetic component, that explains my risk of, say, obesity. compared to yours, but doesn't explain. how the population of the United States, for example, all of a sudden became much. more obese in general. So, you're saying. this is really about a predisposition,

which basically means your genetics make. you more or less likely, for some. reason, um which is a genetic reason, to become. obese when. you. make certain lifestyle choices. Um but that is a predisposition, which. means that And I guess your work asserts. that the predisposition relates to your. hormones' response to the foods that we. So, it really it's really a. genetic response to foods,

which is based on your hormone response. We all have a certain genetic sort of. predisposition to obesity, right? So, all of us have a certain risk. Some. people, obviously, they eat whatever. they want and they don't gain weight. We. all know people like that, right? And. some people sort of look at a muffin and. they gain weight. So, you have that. genetic predisposition. So, that. explains the difference between two. people, but it doesn't explain the. difference within an entire population. Like if you take the entire population. of the Earth or even of America or. whatever, the genetics haven't changed.

sufficiently. of that entire population. to say why there's more obesity now than. before. So, we're inheriting our. parents' hormone response. Uh yeah, but we're we're we're the the. hormone response that we have is going. to be dependent a lot on genetics, but. the food choices we're making are. different than our our parents. So, they're eating different things. If you. think back about what your grandmother. ate and stuff, it's different than the. food environment that we find ourselves.

in right now, and that food environment. is creating this sort of. uh is sort of increasing the risk uh. over over time. That's the sort of uh. what what we need to try and figure out. and why we need to have a deeper. discussion as opposed to calories. because we've been having this sort of. calories discussion for, you know, 30, 40 years. It just hasn't been very. helpful. You call it a a deception. You. say in chap part two of your book, you. say the calorie deception. Yeah. And you say there are five wrong.

assumptions about obesity and weight. loss. The calorie calo- calorie in calorie out. are independent of each other, so won't. trigger one another. Um this interesting point about the. basal metabolic rate being stable. Is that in essence because people, you. know, people will often say I have a low. metabolism. It's kind of like a word in. culture. If someone is um obese, often. the. the diagnosis is they have a low. metabolism. Is there any merit in that? Is that. true? Oh, absolutely. The question So, when you think about so, body fat, you.

think about the energy balance equation. Body fat equals calories in minus. calories out. This often leads people to. say, "Well, just eat 500 fewer calories. and you'll lose a pound of fat per. week.". It's. it's unquestionably false because every. single study that we've done over the. last 50 years shows that if you eat 500. fewer calories, then. over time, depending on what foods. you're eating, eventually your body will. just burn 500 fewer calories. So, that's.

your basal metabolic rate, the number of. calories that your body is expending in. one day. So, we see this in almost every single. study. We've known about it for like 80. years at least. You eat fewer calories, your body burns fewer calories. Well, that's going to limit how much weight. you're going to lose, right? So, this. idea that just eat fewer calories will. automatically lead to weight loss. is completely false because we know that. eating fewer calories leads also to.

burning fewer calories. So, you eat 500 less, your body burns. 500 less, and you're not losing any body weight. So, I go on a diet, let's say, cuz I'm. trying to lose weight. My metabolism lowers to meet the. calorific restriction that I've imposed. on myself. Yeah. What then happens when. I come off the diet? Does my metabolism. stay. Generally, yes. low? Yeah. So, that's that yo-yo dieting. effect. So, say you start with 2,000.

calories in, 2,000 calories out. You're not gaining. weight, you're not losing weight, right? Now, you decide, "Okay, I'm going to go. on a diet." So, you go down to 1,500. calories thinking that you're going to. burn 2,000, and the body fat's going to provide 500, right? That's how you balance that. equation. However, if you eat the wrong foods, and. you're eating all the time, so you're. eating 10 times a day, eight times a. day, like people say you should, you're. eating low fats, you're eating tons of. carbs, you're spiking your insulin.

Insulin prevents you from burning body. fat, okay? So, we've again, we've known. about this for 80 years. So, now you eat. 1,500 calories, but you're keeping your. insulin levels really high. So, fewer. calories, but lots of high-carb foods, eating all the time, insulin stays high. You're you're taking in 1,500, your body. is now burning 2,000, but you can't burn. any body fat. So, the calories that are. stored in your body fat cannot be cannot. be sort of taken out. It's like it's in. the bank and the bank is closed. It's.

you can't take it out. So, what's going. to happen? Well, you don't have a. balanced equation. So, that cannot cannot happen. So, what. happens is that in order to balance that. equation because your insulin levels are. high, you're eating 1,500 calories coming in, your body can only burn 1,500 calories. Your metabolic rate has just now gone. down by 500 calories. And guess what? You're not losing any body fat. So, that's an example of how the whole. the calories idea is completely wrong.

because if you continue to do that, what's going to happen over time is that. you you get tired because you're burning. fewer calories. You don't have enough. energy to generate body heat. So, you're. cold, you're tired, you're hungry. So, you say, "Okay, I'm going to go to 1,800. calories.". So, now you're eating 1,800 calories, but you're only burning 1,500 calories. Guess what? You gain weight. And you. say, "But how can I gain weight? I'm. eating less than I did." Yes, you are. eating less than the 2,000 calories you. used to eat. You're eating 1,800, but.

you're eating the wrong foods. You're. very high-insulin foods. So, therefore, you're going to gain. weight. In fact, everybody says that. And and all the all the nutritionists, all the doctors just they just don't. believe them. They say, "You're lying. You're cheating. You're eating more than. you think." So, this explains something. that happened with one of my friends, which I always puzzled me. He swears by the calories in calorie out. thing. I've spoken about him a few. times. He posts about it online, as. well. Um and he he actually managed to get a.

pretty much like six-pack abs, pretty. much. And at the time, it appears that he was. eating a lot of Domino's pizzas, a lot. of pizzas. And I was thinking, "How does. this guy eat all these pizzas, but he's. using this calories in calorie out. thing?". Uh and then when the pizzas stopped, Yeah. there was this yo-yo effect. Yeah. Where he managed to get to basically. what I'd describe as a six-pack or there. thereabouts, and then um stopped eating. all. stopped the diet, per se, and then there. was this big yo-yo effect, which I.

imagine is what you've said there. What. he's done is he's lowered his. metabolism, then when he goes up just a. little bit, it all comes back. It all comes back and then some. And. then some. Yeah, absolutely. So, this. form of dieting. is actually over the long term probably. going to make you gain weight. Oh, it's. it's very detrimental. And that's what. yo-yo dieting we all know it's very. detrimental. But think about it. differently, right? So, let's take a. different example with the same. calories, which is why I keep saying you. have to think about more than the. calories. You have to think about what.

the hormones are because that's the. instructions to your body. Food contains. calories, energy, but it contains. instructions as to what to do. So, let's. take an example. You're eating 2,000. calories in, 2,000 calories out. Now, you go on a diet. You want to you take. in 1,500. But what you do is you do some. intermittent fasting. When you fast, insulin is going to fall. That's the. whole point. Insulin is a hormone that. goes up when you eat, it goes down when. you don't eat, right? So, when you eat, insulin goes up, your body wants to. store energy. When you don't eat,

insulin goes down, your body says, "I. have no energy. I have no food coming. in. Please take it out of storage." So, now you take 1,500 calories, but you do. intermittent fasting, so you're allowing. your insulin levels to fall. Now, 1,500. calories are coming in, insulin levels. are low, your body wants to burn 2,000. calories. It says, "Well, insulin levels. are low. Let me take 500 calories from. my body fat." Guess what? You have 500. coming from your body fat, you have. 1,500 coming from your food, you burn. 2,000.

It's a balanced equation. So, instead of. the opposite situation, so and and and. you see that the calories are the same. You went from 2,000 in to 1,500 in, but what the difference was that you. allowed insulin to fall, which allowed. you to burn body fat, right? It's the. hormonal signal that says, "Please take energy out. Open up the. doors so that body fat can come out.". And this is the piece that's missing. because people are all all like, "Well, I'm this, I'm that." And it's like, "Well, why can't you burn the fat that's.

on your body?" Cuz there's 200, 300,000. calories of body fat. Why can't you. access it? It's because you haven't. activated the right hormones so that you. can access it. So, now if you do intermittent fasting, you eat 1,500 calories, you take 500. calories out, your body's burning 2,000. Now, all of a sudden, if you go off your. diet and you go back to 2,000 calories, guess what? You don't gain weight, you don't lose. weight. Same as before. Whereas before. you go even to 1,800 calories, you lost.

weight. But the difference was not the. calories, it was always 2,000 to 500. The difference was you paid attention to. the hormones that you're telling your. body. And the insulin is sort of the. primary hormone. There's actually a lot. more. There's, you know, there's there's. there's cortisol is a is a very. important hormone. There's other. hormones. You mentioned burning calories there. One of the thoughts around the calories. in calories out model is that you can. just exercise, and if you burn 1,000.

calories exercising, then that gives you. a little bit of a reserve there to eat. more, for example. Yeah, and it's. probably a very very small effect for. for a couple of reasons. So, we know. that uh if you exercise, and I I and I say this, exercise. is really good for you in a number of. ways. Flexibility, strength, core, all. kinds of things. So, very very. important. But in terms of weight loss, it's actually very very small effect.

Why? Because one, the amount of calories. you burn during exercise are simply not. that high. So, if you look at, you know, if you do walking, I mean, if you did 8. hours of high-intensity exercise, yeah, you're going to burn a lot of calories. But most people I deal with, which are. sort of middle-aged and higher, you're. talking about sort of a quick walk or, you know, 45 to half an hour three times. a week sort of thing. And if you ever go on the treadmill and. you ever watch that calorie counter on. the treadmill, you know, it goes up very.

very slowly, right? You'll do half an. hour and it'll be up to like 120. calories or something like that, right? So, that exercise really didn't burn off. very many calories. It's the amount that. you'd get in a couple of cookies, for. example, right? So, it's it's just. numerically, it's just very small. So, if you're you're taking in if your body. is normally using 2,000 calories with. your brain, generating body heat, your. heart, your lungs, your liver, they're. using 2,000 calories, and now you go up.

to 2,100 calories. Well, percentage-wise, it's not a huge deal, right? The other problem with exercise. is that it tends to actually cause you. to eat more. So, uh again, we found had. decades of study for this. If you. exercise, during the exercise, you have. uh loss reduced appetite. So, you have. extra diet It's called exercise-induced. anorexia. So, in the middle of a. basketball game, you don't suddenly go, "Oh, wow, I'm really hungry." Right? Cuz.

your your blood is flowing in your you. know, in your muscles and so on. Uh. you're not thinking about the hunger. So, hunger actually goes down during. exercise. But after exercise, we see. this rebound. So, we see that people are. actually more hungry after exercise. And. if you're hungrier after exercise, it's. going to cause you to tend to gain more. weight. In fact, there's this very. interesting study that was done a few. years ago in Harvard where they measured. the sort of calorie difference that you. get with uh for for children.

um in certain activities. So, they said, "Okay, what if a child is watching TV? What's the average uh caloric. difference?" And it was like plus 100. calories per hour. So, for every hour of. TV, they're sort of positive 100 calories. over time, right? And that makes sense, you're just sitting there. When you look. at mild exercise, it's about the same. It's about positive 100 calories. So, the only way that happens is that if. that exercise is causing you to eat. more, right? And you say, "Well, why are.

you eating more?" It's like, "Well, because you're you're hungry." Like the. exercise is inducing you to eat more. And that's going to make it difficult to. lose weight. You say in the book in. chapter four that 95% of weight loss is. diet. Yeah. And that's the reason why. exercise is very hard to exercise enough. to lose weight. And and and that's not. to say that you shouldn't exercise. It's. it you really should exercise. Everybody. should exercise. But if you're trying to. lose weight, you still got to focus on.

the main. topic, which is the foods that you eat, which is not just the calories, it's. about the types of food that you eat, which is going to affect the hormonal. balance, and also how often you eat. If. you're eating all the time versus if. you're eating only eating very. infrequently, then you're going to have. a different hormonal balance that is. going to affect your weight as well. An American survey of more than 60,000. adults and children revealed that in. 1977, most people ate three times a day.

By 2003, most people were eating five to. six times a day. Yeah. Yeah, this is the whole idea of sort of. eating all the time, and this I find. fascinating because it was this sort of. inadvertent. change in our diet that we never talked. about, right? So, in 1977, we told. people eat lots of carbs, okay? So, we. know that. That's in print. For sure,

the American government said eat 55 to. 60% carbs, eat less fat. What happened is that, you know, in. 1977, people ate breakfast, lunch, and. dinner. No snacks. If you wanted an. after-school snack, your mom said, "No, you're going to ruin your dinner." If. you wanted a bedtime snack, your mom. would say, "No, you should ate more at. dinner." Right? No problem. But what happened is that as we started. to eat sort of a lot of carbs, what. happened is exactly as what we discussed.

before, you eat two slices of bread in. the morning with jam, you have no satiety, insulin spikes way. up, glucose spikes way up, but then it. crashes because. again. then you get hungry at 10:30. So, you go around looking for a low-fat. muffin, and it was because, you know, you know, your your your your sugars are. going down, your insulin's going down. So, now you're eating mid-morning snack, then you eat a big plate of pasta, then. you get ravenous at like 3:00, so you go. find yourself some more crackers or.

something like that, right? And then so. now you're having a mid-morning snack, you're having mid-afternoon snack, then. you're having a bedtime snack. And. that's the average American by 2003 is. eating six five six times a day. But. they're saying, "Hey, I'm eating so low. fat, this must be the right way to eat. This must be good for me." So, now the. snacking becomes institutionalized. Whereas pre-1977, snacks are an. indulgence, right? It's not something. good for you. It's something bad for. you, but hey, once in a while you. you you you indulge. Then it becomes.

institutionalized as something that. every single one of us should be doing, and we should never be without food for. more than an hour and a half. Let's. think about this very simply, okay? So, if you eat, your insulin's going to go. up, your body's going to store calories. because you told it to. If you don't eat. or if you fast, your body is your your. insulin's going to go down, you're going. to bring those calories back out of. storage, right? So, you're going to burn. calories. You eat, you store calories,

you don't eat, you burn calories. Very. simple. So, why would you want to eat all the. time? That makes no sense at all. If you. want to lose body fat, you actually need. to extend the period of time that you're. not eating, in other words, extend your. fasting period and get rid of all the. snacks. in order for you to have enough time. that your insulin is low. When insulin. is low, it's going to allow fat burning, which is going to allow you to pull. those calories back out. You're. something to this being really the.

founder of modern intermittent fasting, and I've heard people talk about. intermittent fasting on this show over. and over and over and over again now, but. the internet says that it really came. from you. I know that intermittent fasting's been. happening for thousands of years, but. the idea of it as a tool for weight. loss, they say it came from you. Because in 2013, 2014, really nobody was. talking about it from a medical. standpoint. Like, what's happening in. the body? Why is it good? Why is it bad?

And really, I was for years sort of this. one voice in the wilderness that was. saying like, "Hey, this is a tool for. us. If you want to lose weight because. it's important, then you can just set. aside a period of time that you don't. eat. At the time, people thought it was. extremely bad for you. And I I looked. through all the literature and I said, "Well, why is it bad for you?" And they. had all these reasons. There's all these. myths about intermittent fasting and how. it's going to cause you to gain weight. and be tired and hungry and all these.

sorts of things. I said, "Well, no, there's actually a lot of data here over. the last, you know, 2,000 years that. we've used intermittent fasting and. they're simply not true. And I can go. over a few of those. But that's why. there was nobody talking about it at the. time and that's where I started to sort. of bring it into the uh sort of public. consciousness that this is a tool. That's all it is. Were you attacked for. that at the time? Oh, absolutely. Like I. got I got attacked from all sides. I. got, you know, doctors were coming after. me, dieticians were coming after me.

Everybody thought I was going to do so. much harm. And the funny part was that, you know, as I think back as I spoke to. a lot of colleagues, a lot of colleagues. would say to me, "You know what? I used. to do that when I was in training. We. did that all the time. We'd go 24 hours. without eating because we're in the OR. or we're in the ER or we were busy. So, we did that constantly and nothing bad. happened. And I remember thinking, you. know what? As a doctor, I actually tell. people to fast all the time. If you have to go for surgery, you need. to fast. If you're after surgery, you.

need to fast. If you do fasting blood. work, you need to fast. So, why is it. that I'm actually telling people to fast. all the time and yet for weight loss, you shouldn't fast. That doesn't make. any sense. And physiologically, from a. body standpoint, it doesn't make any. sense. Uh one of the things people talked about. was, you know, it's going to make you eat. more later. It's going to make you more. hungry. Your basal metabolic rate's. going to go down. This was one of the. big myths of intermittent fasting. That's going to cause the so-called.

starvation mode, right? And this is the. idea that your basal metabolic rate will. fall so low that when you do start to. eat, you're going to gain weight again. So, I said, "Well, let's think about. this. You can do a study where you take. somebody, say you for example, and you. could fast them for 4 days. and measure how much how many calories. they're burning, their basal metabolic. rate on day zero before the fast and. measure them 4 days into the fast and. see how many calories you're burning.". So, on day zero, they say you're you're.

burning, say, 2,000 calories a day. On. day four of zero food, you don't eat any. food for 4 days, they measure how much. calories you're burning, your body is. burning 2,200 calories. Your basal metabolic rate didn't go. down. It went up. Your body's activating. itself during fasting, which is fascinating because if you're. trying to lose weight, dropping that basal metabolic rate is. death. Like if you drop that metabolic rate, it's so hard to lose weight. That's what.

the calorie restricted diets did. That's. what the low-fat diets did. The eating. all the time did. But when you actually. fast, your metabolic rate went up. And. we see this in study after study. And. the reason is actually basic physiology. It's actually medical physiology, like. first-year medical school stuff. When you don't eat, what happens in your. body from a hormone standpoint is that. your insulin's going to fall, you're. going to allow your body to start using. the calories that are in the body.

At the same time, other hormones go up. So, the sympathetic tone goes up, which. is your fight-or-flight response. Your. cortisol levels go up because again, it's an activation and your growth. hormone goes up. Because those hormones. are going to start telling your body to. start pulling calories out. So, you're. actually activating yourself. Think about it the wild. If you see a. hungry wolf, is that wolf just sort of. you know, all like lethargic? No, he's. activated. He's actually more dangerous.

than any other wolf as opposed to, say, a lion who just ate. Because when you. just eat, you just want to lie there, you know, you you want to digest your. food. You have no energy. So, people. say, "Well, your your your metabolic. rate's going to go down if you fast.". No. The the truth is actually the. opposite. It goes up. You've got me. thinking about food as an instruction. I'm giving my body because if I eat this. food, it's going to have this impact on. my hormones, which is going to have this. impact on my body. So, if we view food. as an instruction to the body, we talked. a little bit about the timings of eating.

and a little bit about fasting. I want. to get into that a little bit more, but. breakfast. I read that you didn't think. most people need breakfast. Yeah, the the whole idea that you need. to eat as soon as you get up is just. false. So, there's this whole um thing. about breakfast. Now, you will always. break your fast. Think about the actual. word, right? Break fast. It's the meal. that breaks your fast, which tells you. that in the English language, we accept. that your body should have a fasting.

period every day. Why? There's a period. of time that you're supposed to feed. You eat, insulin goes up, you store. calories. Then there's supposed to be a. period of time that you fast. That's. after dinner until the next day's meal, which is breakfast, right? So, you say. you stop eating at 6:00 p.m., you eat at. 8:00 a.m. That's a 14-hour period where. your body. is not eating, it's fasting, and. therefore, it's going to use calories, right? But the word breakfast tells us.

that that's actually a normal pattern. This normal cyclical pattern. You feed, then you fast, right? If you eat all the. time, your body's just going to store energy. and never have a period to burn energy. So, okay, well, what's going to happen? You're going to gain weight. I read as. well that breakfast eaters averaged 539. extra calories per day compared to those. that skipped breakfast. And that's a finding that's consistent. with other trials. That was on page 132.

of The Obesity Code. Yeah, so the more. often you eat in general, the more. calories you take in. So, if you eat. three times a day, you you're six times. a day, then you know, if you eat three. times a day compared to two times a day, for example, you'll in general eat less because it's. harder to eat that, you know, big meal. So, say you eat once a day versus three. times a day. If you eat once a day, it's. not always easy to eat three meals'. worth of calories. all in one sitting because you get full.

Do you fast? Oh, I do that regularly, yeah. And what what does your fast look. like? Cuz I've heard of all these. different types of fasting, 36 hours, 72. hours. Oh, yeah. 14 hours. Yeah. There's no rules for fasting. You. could do, you know, it could be 16 hours. So, 14. hours, remember, is sort of a baseline, 12 to 14 hours, right? That just means. you're not eating after dinner. That's. it. Um and so, if you want to lose weight, that's probably not strong enough to. make you lose weight because 12 to 14. hours is sort of just this baseline that.

people had in the '70s. Um so, you can go to 16 hours, for. example, and you shrink that by either. eating breakfast a little later or. eating dinner a little earlier. But you. can do more than that. You can do, say, a 24-hour fast. You could eat two meals. a day. Say eat between 12:00 and 6:00. That's a 6-hour eating window. Or you. could eat once a day, which is like a. 24-hour fast. Or you could even go. multiple days. uh without eating because again, your. body is smart. Like our your body knows. what to do. If you have all those.

calories sitting on your body, right? 100,000 calories sitting in body. fat and you don't eat for 3 days. Well, you need 6,000 calories. Well, you have. 100,000, 200,000. So, what's the. problem? Take it out of your body fat. Let your body eat your body fat. That's. what fasting is doing for you. And it's totally natural because that's. what it's there for. That body fat is not there for looks. It's there for you as a source, as a. store of calories. So, fasting just lets.

you use that. There's nothing wrong with. it. People talk about hunger, for. example, but again, hunger is very. interesting because people think it's. the amount of time that you haven't. eaten. But it's not true. It's actually. hormonally mediated. So, if you think. about hunger, I actually found this really. fascinating. So, if you look at studies of when. people are the most hungry and the least. hungry, on average, people are the most hungry. at 8:00 p.m. and the least hungry at. 8:00 a.m.

So, in the morning time, you are. actually the least hungry that you will. be all day. That's just an average. And at 8:00 8:00 p.m. in the evening. time, you're the most hungry. So, 8:00. a.m. is the period of time that you've. gone the longest without food. So, why are you the least hungry? It's. because it's hormonally mediated. When you wake up at 5:00 a.m., your body. actually has this surge of hormones, growth hormone, cortisol, and uh. sympathetic tone, which is already.

getting you prepared for the day. It's. starting to release some of the stored. glucose from your body fat, from your. sugar stores. at 5:00 a.m. So, your body has already. prepared you for the day ahead. without you even doing anything. That's. why people in general are not hungry at. 8:00 a.m. I've got to talk to you about. these um these new injections people are. getting to lose weight and the role that. they must be playing in our hormone. balances. What are those bloody things. called? The. GLP-1s? GLP-1s. There's another name for.

it, isn't there? Yeah. Uh well, there's. there's the drug name, which is uh. Ozempic is the. is the American name. And these are all. in in a class called GLP-1s. And. essentially, again, very interesting because they. essentially. really reduce the appetite, which goes to show you that and people. lose weight, like a lot of weight, and. they keep it off. So, it's 70%. I know. Like a a billionaire friend of. mine that's. very big in a certain industry uses.

Ozempic. And Elon Musk came out and said. he used it. used it, yeah. Ozempic as well. Um I don't I'm not I I I don't have any. problem with the Ozempic because again, if you think about it, what it's telling. you that the lesson it's teaching you. about weight loss is that it's not about. controlling the calories cuz the Ozempic. doesn't burn any calories. It's about. controlling your hunger. It's about that one level deeper. Why. are you taking so many calories? So if.

you simply reduce the hunger, you're. going to naturally eat fewer calories, which is going to cause weight loss. And. that's what this Ozempic does. It it. really reduces your appetite to very low. levels. How? It it's it's it's this this hormone. called GLP-1, uh which is a natural sort. of hormone. It's it's released mostly in. the intestines in the distal intestine. in the small intestine. And in response to certain foods, it it. goes up, right? So when you eat, the.

body has a homeostatic mechanism. So. again, remember, you know, people think. that we're just eating machines. We eat. until, you know, we explode sort of. thing, but that's not true. When you. eat, you actually activate the GLP-1. along with other hormones. There's. multiple hormonal systems. The GLP-1 is. the one we're interested in. You. activate GLP-1, which then sets into. motion the the the instructions for you. to stop eating, right? So the act of. eating. sort of sets in motion that whole.

feedback loop to stop, right? So this is. homeostasis, which is trying to keep. things at a proper level. Does that mean. if you eat slower, Uh there's. you'll be less you'll eat less? Um. there's probably not. time to catch up. Yeah, probably it's. true. Um you know, although it's. probably mostly true that if you eat. really, really fast, that you don't have. enough time for this sort of homeostatic. mechanisms to kick in, so you don't have. enough time to stop eating. Um but the GLP-1s then go to the brain.

So they do certain things. They help. with digestion, so they increase insulin. response. And then they go to the brain. It crosses the the the the blood-brain. barrier. So the GLP-1s gets released by. the act of eating, goes into the brain, crosses, and is active um in the sort of. midbrain area that tells your body to. stop eating. What these GLP-1s do, of. course, is that it's a uh it it gives. you the hormone that tells you to stop. eating even though you haven't eaten.

It's sort of That's that's the way the. drug works. So then what people tell you. is that, you know, they're just not. hungry. And if they're not hungry, then. they don't eat. And when they don't eat, of course, insulin falls, and you start. to burn calories, and lose weight. But. it wasn't about controlling the. calories, it was about controlling the. hunger. That was the important part of it. It's. the hormones, right? Every successful. drug to gain or lose weight, right, is a. hormone. It's a hormone-based because.

that's instructions to the body. Food is. energy, and food is instructions. You. change the instructions, and you you. change the hormone. This whole history. of fiber thing has been so interesting. to me because. in the last 6 months, so many of the. nutritionists I've spoken to have really. impressed upon me that we are fiber. deficient. And I'm wondering how that happened. Um well, I think it was part of the. processing. thing. So taking out fiber is a great. way to make foods more.

appealing, if you will. Um so what. happens is that if you take um. flour, for example, and you have a lot. of fiber in it, then the digestion is. slowed. So what you get is a slower. rise. So you take flour, and you put a. lot of fiber in it. Well, instead of. having this huge spike in insulin, what. you're going to get is a much slower. spike in insulin. When you have the huge spike in insulin, it basically overloads your system, and.

it makes you feel, you know, gives you. this big hit. Sort of like if you have. like cocaine, for example, you know, it's it's turned into a very fine. powder, then you snort it, so you get. this massive sort of spike. Same thing. with. um you know, carbohydrates. If you don't. have any uh fiber, you you pull all the. fiber out by processing, you get this. massive sort of unnatural spike, and. your body says, "Oh, that's great. It. tastes great. I really love it." And you. get people who are sort of addicted to. it because that big spike is going then.

going to release dopamine. And dopamine is a pleasure hormone. So. you eat, you know, cookies or whatever, highly processed foods, you get this. sort of pleasurable response. And that. makes you crave it. If you have a lot of. fiber, it acts almost sort of an like an. antidote to that carbohydrate because. you're slowing down that release. What. foods are high in fiber? Well, mostly. unprocessed foods. So the the things. like beans, and if you're having if.

you're eating whole grains, for example, compared to others, then it's going to. have a reduction in the speed of. absorption. So it's again not about the. calories necessary or even necessarily. about the carbohydrates because you're. still eating the same amount of. carbohydrate, but you're slowing down. the speed at which is absorbed, which is. going to change the instructions that. you give your body. If you have a. massive spike in glucose, you get this. massive dopamine surge, right? And your. body's like, "Yo, love it.".

Then the next time you're like, "Okay, give me that refined carbohydrate." What. about protein cuz we we tend to think of. protein as something that, you know, is. super great for weight loss. Yeah, protein is probably. sort of inter it's not bad. I mean, the. main thing is cutting down the. carbohydrates, but you know, in the ABCD. code, I really talk about cutting the. processing down because proteins. usually don't come as pure protein,

right? In nature, you never find like, you know how you have like whey powder. or protein or whatever you get. The only. way you can do that is by processing the. heck out of food to get some kind of. pure protein. It doesn't exist in. nature. Like it almost doesn't exist. And maybe there's a few examples. But. when you eat meat, you think, "Okay, there's a lot of protein." But there's. actually a lot of fat in there, too, right? Um if you eat anything else that. has protein, it's it's rarely all. protein. You know, very lean meats like.

chicken breast and stuff are going to be. higher in protein, but there's still a. lot of other stuff in there. And it's. very rare that somebody will eat just. all pure 100% protein. It it tends to be. hard to eat. Like the fat brings a lot. of flavor and so on. So it's a bit of an. unnatural way to eat. Sure, if you if. you're to eat a lot of protein, it does. spike insulin, so it does have some. effect to gain weight, but it's actually. a very um. inefficient macronutrient. That is,

you're There's three macronutrients. There's carbohydrates, there's. fat, and there's protein. Your body stores energy or calories in. two ways. There's glucose, which is. carbohydrate, and it stores it as body. fat, which is fat, right? It doesn't. protein is not a way for the body to. store energy. So when you're eating a. lot of protein, it's very difficult for. it to turn it into a storage mechanism. Like, you know, so you eat glucose, and you eat fat. You can store glucose,

and you can store fat, but you you eat. protein, but you don't really store it. as a source of energy. So if all foods. then increase our insulin levels, I guess the best solution is to fast. Uh. fasting is certainly one way, but just. changing the foods to otherwise because. if you look at the insulin uh release in. processed foods versus unprocessed. foods, there's a huge difference. So if. you eat sort of highly refined foods. like white bread, for example, then.

you're going to have a very different. response in insulin compared to sort of. um a a whole a whole food. So. unprocessed foods in general, your body. knows how to handle. Like we've been. eating them for thousands of years. Um. but certainly, anytime you eat, your. insulin's going to go up. You're giving. your body instructions to store energy. So the solution is to eat less often. What if you do a juice fast? Juice fast, of course, is not a real fast because. you're you're taking a lot of sugars.

What do you think of juice fasting? Um. I'm generally I I I think it's less. effective than regular fasting, and it. really depends on how much juice you. take. If you take a lot of juice, you. could easily get, you know, thousands of. calories plus a lot of sugar. If you do. it, you know, cucumber juice and stuff. that's very low in sugar and kale juice, then it could be very, very healthy for. you cuz there's vitamins and stuff. there. So it all depends on how it's. done. However, the. um the fasting is a way for you to sort. of clean out the body. So you can clean.

out the glucose. If you have excess body. fat, you're you're going to use it, right? So again, weight clean it out. There's this whole process called. autophagy, which is just fascinating. And autophagy is this um so it's been. very topical cuz in 2016, one of the key. researchers was given the Nobel Prize in. Medicine. So it's it's a very important. process that's been relatively recently. discovered. What they discovered is that when you. don't eat protein particularly, but when. you fast, your body activates this thing. called autophagy, and it breaks down.

some of the subcellular organs, which. sounds really bad. Subcellular organs? Yeah, so. you know, these are sort of like the. organs within the cell. So it's not like. the liver, but there's something called. organelles within a cell, and some of. that is broken down. So basically, these. proteins and so on within the cell, your. body gets rid of that. And you think, "Oh, well, that sounds really bad.". But it's not. It turns out that it's. very, very good for you because it's an. opportunity for your body to get rid of.

all this old protein, old junkie. protein. And at the same time, remember. that your fasting, your growth hormone. levels are shooting up through the roof. So, like a you know, 2 3 day fast, your. growth hormone levels might have go up. five times. So, you're getting rid of. all the old stuff, then when you eat. again, you're actually got growth. hormone to produce new proteins. So, in. essence, you're getting rid of the old, you're bringing in the new. It's. basically the process of rejuvenation. Could this be a very important way.

to get rid of some of the chronic. illnesses of aging? And there's lots of. data, uh you know, talking about uh you. know, Alzheimer's disease, there's talk. people talking about cancers, there's. people talking about just general aging, you know, Dr. Chris Palmer talking about. mental disorders. We're all talking. about insulin and overeating and diet as. a really important component of not just. diabetes and weight,

but all of these diseases, mental. illnesses, uh you know, chronic uh illnesses like. Alzheimer's disease, neurologic. illnesses. And there's all this data. that suggests that autophagy and fasting. is a way to activate autophagy could be. actually extremely beneficial for you. Which is fine when we used to do it. And. and. you know, what's so interesting. is that. people seem to have already known about. it. Like, you see it in almost every.

major religion. There's periods of fasting. Right? It's like, why did they do that? Because it was good for them. Through trial and error, whatever, they. realized that, "Hey, periodically abstaining from food. makes us stronger.". If you eat all the time, constantly, day. in day out, week in week out, month in. month out, that's not that good for you. There are periods that you should feast,

and there are periods you should fast. So, religion set. days or weeks or months even where you. should fast. So, it's like, "Whoa. Why did they do that? And are they just. way ahead of us in terms of. understanding the human body?" Like, we. get so, you know, enamored of our own, you know, intelligence and science and. so on that we think they're. you know, that they didn't know what. they're talking about. Maybe they knew. more about what they're talking about, and science is just catching up and. saying, "Oh, this process of autophagy that you.

activate with fasting, this could be really important for. longevity, uh for other things. I'm not. saying you should do it like every month. or whatever. If you look at the way that. people do it, they don't do it like, you. know, they don't do like 5 days a month. or something. It's they do it once a. year or once every few months. does autophagy take to kick in? Is it 72. hours did you say? Um. nobody knows, but probably it's. and it depends on probably how much. protein you eat. Protein is the key. um sort of when you eat protein,

autophagy just stops. So, low protein, you can activate it. It's probably. somewhere around 20 to 30 hours. So, you'll see a lot of religions, for. example, they'll have like a 24-hour. fast, right? One day that you're not. supposed to eat or something like that. And maybe that's the way to cleanse your. body not just of the glucose and the. fat, but also the excess proteins that. are are are old, they're junkie. I mean, you think about renovating your bathroom. or something like that, right? The first thing you got to do, you got. to throw out the, you know, 1970s tub.

and the avocado green toilet. That's the. first thing you got to do. You got to get rid of it. You got to. break down before you can rebuild. better. Well, autophagy might be that way to. break down some of the stuff that you. actually can't break down any other way. If your body's full of all this junkie. protein, you can't get rid of it. Is there an. evolutionary explanation for the role of. autophagy, do you think? I think there is, actually. I think. there's a huge. uh number of reasons why people.

uh do it. One of it, um this whole idea. that fasting actually activates the. body, for example, um is is very interesting because I. think it's like if you're a caveman, for. example, or cavewoman, and it's winter. and there's nothing to eat. If your body starts to shut down, then. evolutionarily, you're going to die, right? Because you have less energy, you. can't go out and hunt. So, our body's. just not that stupid. So, what it does. is says, "Okay, well, I'm going to give. you more energy. So, I'm going to. activate the body, but then I'm going to.

uh change where you're getting your. energy from. You're not going to get the. energy from the food, you're going to. get it from your body fat stores, which. is your stored food, right? You stored. food for a reason. So, that's why I think some of the the. fasting has a lot of evolutionary. benefits because it increases your. energy, it it it lowers the glucose. So, if if you look at the blood glucose, the. blood glucose goes down. So, in times of. stress and so on, your your body actually naturally fasts. If you get sick, you get a flu or.

something, you stop eating. First thing. you do, right? You just want to drink. some water and stuff. Why? Because your. body wants to lock down the glucose. because the bacteria. love glucose. Your body can run on fat, but the bacteria want the glucose. So, you fast to lock down the glucose. So, there's a lot of evolutionary reasons. why the fasting might be good for, you. know, bacterial infections, taking care. of things, increasing your energy, increasing your concentration at a time. that you're not like when you're not.

eating, you're actually getting more. mental capacity and more energy because. you need it in order to go hunt. Interesting. As you'll know if you've listened to. this podcast before, I'm an investor in. a company called Huel. I'm on their. board, and they sponsor this podcast. And I have a very exciting announcement. to make. This product called Daily Greens is one. of the most highly requested products at. Huel, but it's never been sold in the UK. before. Until. now. It's often difficult to get all of. the greens into our diet that we need to. have a healthy gut microbiome and a.

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What is the What is the most interesting. thing or the most. you know, you use the word interesting a. lot or fascinating. What is the most fascinating thing that. we haven't talked about? I think to me, the most fascinating. thing is uh other than for intermittent. fasting because a lot of the stuff we. thought about it was wrong. Uh in fact, the opposite. But. the the most interesting thing I think. is in the field of type 2 diabetes. because it's such an important disease. Um if you look at the number of people.

being affected with type 2 diabetes, it's skyrocketing. So, we had, since the. 1970s, an increase in obesity, then we. had an increase in type 2 diabetes. And. I think the most fascinating thing, the. most promising thing I've heard in a. long time, is that you can actually. start to reverse this disease. by changing the diet. And I think what's. interesting is that you have to. understand that type 2 diabetes is. largely a dietary disease.

And so, we treated it with drugs for a. long time. And if you give drugs to a. dietary disease, well, you're never. going to fix it because you haven't. identified the core problem and fixed. it. You need to change the diet to fix. that dietary problem, then the disease. goes away. And now we have data on. intermittent fasting, for example, and. also. low carbohydrate diets. Dr. David Unwin. published his data in the in the UK on. reversing type 2 diabetes with uh. reducing carbohydrates, which.

is showing that you can reduce about 50%. of the people and put them into a. completely drug-free remission state. Like, basically cure 50% of those type 2. diabetics who are at risk of cancer, at. risk of heart disease, at risk of. strokes, at risk of blindness, at risk. of kidney disease, nerve damage, infections. All these people you can fix. just by changing their diet, either. cutting down the carbohydrates or using. intermittent fasting.

And it's free. And anybody can do it. I'm not talking about a drug that costs. thousands of dollars. I'm not talking. about a surgery which is only available. to the the the 1%. I'm talking about a treatment, which is. intermittent fasting, which is available to everybody. in the entire world for free. And yet. has the power to completely reverse. their disease and make them so much.

healthier. So, the question is, why don't we do it? I can't answer that question for you. I try to do my part to tell people, but. you know, Did you know I was going to ask you that. question? Uh no. I was going to ask you why don't we do. it? No, but what is systems, incentives, money? I think it is. I think it's. You know, the real reason is I think that people.

are slow to catch new ideas. Like, when. people hear about. new ideas, and I'm talking about. academic doctors and so on, there's an. intrinsic resistance to change. So, I. started talking about intermittent. fasting, say 2016, when The Obesity Code. was published. I talked about it about. reversing type 2 diabetes around the. same time. Um and uh it's just they're just very. slow to say, "Hey, this makes a lot of. sense." because for them they've.

invested so much in this calories in. calories out model. They've built their. entire careers on saying that it's it's. your fault that you're fat, right? It's. it's the foods that you ate. It's the. calories that you ate instead of trying. to get to a deeper understanding. So, people are very reluctant to change. In. fact, I mean, it's been 10 years and you. see the public the interest in. intermittent fasting has skyrocketed. And yet most doctors still won't. prescribe it. They won't talk about it. They know nothing about it. There's How. much teaching do doctors get about.

intermittent fasting and why it might be. helpful? Probably zero. Like, why? We have this amazing tool. And people, you know, doctors call it a. fad, right? It's a fad diet. Well, it's. been around for 2,000 plus years. That's. a long long long fad, right? It's it's proven effective. If you don't. eat, you're going to lose weight. What's simpler than that? If you don't. eat, you're going to use up your blood. glucose. Your diabetes will get better.

What's wrong with that? It's not hard to. understand. The diabetes code. I've got. the diabetes journal here in front of. me. And put simply, it talks about step. one being to put less sugar in and step. two being burn the sugar off. Yeah. And. and step one, which relates to putting. more sugar in, is all about. um. low carbohydrate diets, right? Cutting. down the carbohydrates. Yeah, that's. that's one effective way of cutting down. the type two diabetes. In fact, the. American Diabetes Association in their. sort of um nutritional journals, they.

talk about it having the most scientific. evidence of any diet. There's no diet. with more evidence. for reversing type two diabetes than. cutting down the carbohydrates. And then. step two about burning the sugar off, and that's where fasting comes into the. picture. Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, there's. there's it's it's not that hard to. understand. Everybody can understand it. You don't eat, you're going to lose. weight, right? I mean, it's it's such a. simple powerful tool, but it it.

threatens the whole apple cart. All. these doctors, all these professors, which have built their entire. reputations, all these uh systems that. are in place Personal trainers. Yeah, personal trainers work on a. different level because they talk about. more exercise. Um whereas I talk about. out. I think when we talk about calories. on this show sometimes, I think the. people that get quite offended tend to. be um. personal trainers because I think they.

would say they've got case studies of. telling one of their clients to monitor. their calories, and they saw a reduction. in weight. So, they for them that means. it works, this calories in calories out. model. Um it again, it it is that, but it's a. simplistic understanding. That's that's. that's my whole point. It's sort of like. if I were to say to you, "Why did the. Titanic crash?" right? And most people. would say, "Well, it hit an iceberg.". Well, that's very simplistic. That's not.

the right answer. The right answer is it was going too. fast. Right? If you think the right. answer to why did the Titanic crash is. because it hit an iceberg, you'd say the. solution is to hit less icebergs, which. is the same as eat less calories or. drink less alcohol. That's a very. superficial understanding. You have to. get to that deeper level, which is say, "Why did the Titanic hit that iceberg?". It was going too fast, and there's all. these icebergs, and it was going too. fast for where it was.

So, then you say, "It needs to slow. down.". Now you've identified that deeper. understanding. Same as with calories. You can say eat less calories, and for. some people it will work. But for some. people it's like, "Why are you eating so. many calories? Is it because you're. hungry? Why are you hungry?". Is it because all those calories that. you're eating are going immediately into. storage. You're eating white bread and. jam and sugar, and all of it's going. directly into storage, which is leaving. you hungry, which is making you eat too. many calories. So, in the end, yes, you. are eating more calories, but that's the.

sort of first order thinking and not the. second order thinking that we need to be. doing. And that's what the Ozempic and. so on starts to address is the hunger. issue. And this is really what all your work. addresses, and it's really the first. time I've heard someone talk to me about. obesity and weight gain through the lens. of hormones. Never really I've never. heard that before. And reading through. your work was really illuminating. because it allowed me to change my. frame. And it's as you say, when we're. just focusing on the surface, it's very.

easy to fail because we need to. understand the first principles of. what's going on underneath the surface. for that long-term success to stand a. chance of occurring. And I think. everyone listening to this who's. struggled with weight or obesity or. whatever else um. can relate to this idea that something's. not working in, you know, the If there. was any diet that worked, there wouldn't. be a thousand of them. Yeah. And I think the other thing is to. understand that it's not the personal.

failing that Mhm. we make it out to be, which is I think extremely unfair, because obviously there's something. within the system, within the food. environment, within the system of how. we're framing it, Mhm. which is making a. lot of people overweight. But it's not because they don't have. willpower or because they're weak or. these other number of reasons that we. stigmatize obesity. Because we look at. it from that calories in calories out.

framework, right? We say you're eating. too many calories, you must be weak. As. opposed to you're eating too many. calories, what Why is it that you're. eating too many calories? Why are you. hungry all the time? In a word then, if you had to describe what you think. about this idea of calories in calories. out, what is that word? I would say that it's shallow. It's. correct. if you don't think about it too hard. Anybody who focuses in on thermodynamics. and calories.

hasn't really thought about the problem. enough. That's what I think. So, in the. end it is correct, just like alcohol in. alcohol out, you know, hitting the. iceberg. Yes, it did hit an iceberg. That's why it crashed. But it was going. too fast, right? Or alcohol in, yes, if. you drink less alcohol, you'll cure your. alcoholism. But you won't cure the PTSD. that caused you. to drink. Correct, but not helpful. Exactly. That's exactly right. It's it's. it's it is correct,

but it's sort of not getting to that. root deeper cause that we need to Mhm. in order to help people, and that's. causing us to blame them. So, what we're. doing, which I think is very unfair, is. blaming the victim. Like, do you think. this person who's trying to lose 50 lb. needs you to tell them that need need to. lose 50 lb? Absolutely not. That's only. going to be the 10,000th time they've. heard it. It's interesting cuz one of.

our guests talked about the role of. compassion and kindness in weight loss. And now through the lens of. understanding cortisol, now I can understand how. kindness and gratitude and being happy, Yeah. you know, for a lack of a better. word, can help us lose weight. And when. we're not happy, when we're resentful, when we're low in gratitude, um when. we're bitter, Yeah. we're more likely to. gain weight. And and and other things. help, too, because if you think about.

things like a sense of community, Mhm. it's very important. Lowers cortisol levels. Lowers cortisol. is a way for you to relieve stress, right? Talking to other people. We did. that if we did, of course, limit that. during COVID. And of course, we saw a. lot of problems, but one of them was. loneliness and all these sort of things. But again, I always think about um. you know, people. you know, the the way they are. So, if you look at. a lot of religions, for example, it's. like, "Oh, they were so far ahead of.

us.". What did they do? They brought people. together every week. Oh, you're building a sense of. community. Fasting. Oh, they all got together and. fasted. They all shared. They're. lowering their cortisol. They're. lowering their insulin levels. They're. staying healthy. And and we in our big. McMansions, right? We we we eat the the. ice cream for dinner, and we live alone. in this giant house, and we wonder why we're not as as as.

happy as, you know, our grandparents or. parents before them because they. understood the power of some of these. things that we're trying to get back to. Like, the the weirdest thing is that I'm not. trying to tell people something that's. weird and unusual and you never thought. about this before. I'm trying to tell. them about something that everybody in. human history. has been exposed to, which is. intermittent fasting. That's been a part. of our human history, whether it's.

through religion or whether it's through. inadvertent whatever or whether it's. through its cleansing and purifications. and all this sort of stuff. People have. been exposed to it even in the English. language. Breakfast, break your fast. You need to feed, then you need to fast, then you need to break your fast. So, I'm not telling people anything. different. Jason, thank you so much. We um. feel like we could talk for hours cuz. I'm so there's so many. sort of I was thinking about it like. spider webs, but there's so many little.

branches we could go off on as it. relates to hormones and the impact of. hormones on the human body. You have. this other book as well called the PCOS. plan, um preventing and reversing polycystic. ovary syndrome, which is a, you know, a. whole 'nother conversation for another. time. But these books are so wonderful. because they provide a new lens on an. old conversation, and a conversation. that's lacked the depth that's required. to make any. significant progress on these subjects. As we've seen, obesity levels and other. issues with weight have gone in the. wrong direction for the last couple of.

decades. And I think it's a more. systemic understanding of these issues. that will give us any chance of. reversing it, and that's exactly what. your work does. Um everyone knows where to find you, Dr. Jason Fung. We'll link all of your work. in the description below. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last last guest leaves. a question for the next guest. without knowing who they're leaving it. for. And the question that's been left for. you. is what is your greatest gift to the. world?

I think. if if if you know, I I suppose it's. sounds very arrogant. Um but I really. hope that my my work helps people. sort of. reverse the type 2 diabetes cuz that is. really sort of one of the most close. things that I deal with because I deal. with it professionally sort of every. day. Um and helps break the stigma of not.

just the stigma, but the understanding. there like this you know, stimulates. more thinking about weight loss, how to. lose weight more than calories and. calories out. I mean, it's so sort of pie in the sky. because, you know, it's there's a whole. you know, worldwide sort of. institutionalized, fossilized almost, you know, thinking. around calories. It's all about. calories, that sort of thing. So, to for.

me to upset it seems ridiculous. But I hope that I can at least. start that conversation to say, "Hey, let's think about these things. Let's. think about the hormones. Let's think. about reversing type 2 diabetes. Let's. think about all getting together and. helping each other to become so much. healthier. not through drugs and not through more. surgery and not with, you know, weird. and new things that you've never heard. of, but with the tried and the true sort.

of oldest thinking that has been there, right? It's It's to me it's I I. sometimes think about this and I get. crazy. I like. Why do I think I can even do that, right? It's just ridiculous. It's so. much hubris, but you know, I I can only try, right? Because I I see. in my own practice how much good it's. done for some people. So, it drives me. to say, "I need to bring it to more. people. I need to to to explain it to.

them. If they want to be helped, they. will be helped. But if they don't want. to say that's okay. I'm I'm not trying. to force myself to do anything." But, you know, that's what I hope my greatest. gift will be. Um but at the same time I sort of think. that's just, you know, you're crazy if. you can think you can do that. But Well, it's the crazy ones that change the. world, Dr. Jason. Um it's the crazy ones. that change the world. And even with, you know, your conversation around. intermittent fasting has changed many, many lives that you'll never get to. meet. I imagine many, many millions.

Many, many millions because it's even. brought the conversation to this show. before you entered the room many, many. months and months and months and almost. a year ago, as people started talking on. the show about intermittent fasting. And that's in. many respects due to the work that. you've done to further that. conversation. And now your work. continues to highlight the fact that. type 2 diabetes is a reversible disease. in many cases. And I think again, that's. going to save, you know, tens of millions, if not. hundreds of millions of lives over the.

coming coming decades and years. So, thank you for what you do, Dr. Jason. Um. it's an huge honor to get to sit with. you today, and I feel wiser and more. enlightened and like someone has turned. the lights on in a certain part of my. knowledge. because of this conversation. So, I. thank you for that tremendously. Thank. you so much. It's been great. Quick one. We are working with an. exciting new sponsor on this podcast, Shopify. I'm sure you guys have heard of. Shopify if you haven't been living under. a rock. But for those that don't know,

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