Ex-Google Exec (WARNING): The Next 15 Years Will Be Hell Before We Get To Heaven! - Mo Gawdat

The only way for us to get to a better. place and succeed as a species is for. the evil people at the top to be. replaced with AI. I mean, think about. it. AI will not want to destroy. ecosystems. It will not want to kill a. million people. They'll not make us hate. each other like the current leaders. because that's a waste of energy, explosives, money, and people. But the. problem is super intelligent AI is. reporting to stupid leaders. And that's. why in the next 15 years, we are going. to hit a short-term dystopia. There's no. escaping that. They having AI leaders.

Is that even fundamentally possible? Let's put it this way. Mold Ga is back. >> And the former chief business officer at. Google X is now one of the most urgent. voices in AI with a very clear message. >> AI isn't your enemy, but it could be. your savior. >> I love you so much, man. You're such a. good friend. But you don't have many. years to live. Not in this world. Everything's going to change. Economics. are going to change. Human connection is. going to change. and lots of jobs will. be lost including podcasting.

>> No, no. Thank you for coming on today, Mo. >> But but the truth is it could be the. best world ever. The society completely. full of laughter and joy. Free. healthcare, no jobs, spending more time. with their loved ones. A world where all. of us are equal. >> Is that possible? >> 100%. And I have enough evidence to know. that we can use AI to build the utopia. But it's a dystopia if humanity manages. it badly. a world where there's going to. be a lot of control, a lot of. surveillance, a lot of forced compliance. and a hunger for power, greed, ego, and.

it is happening already. But the truth. is the only barrier between a utopia for. humanity and AI and the dystopia we're. going through is a mindset. >> What does society have to do? >> First of all, I see messages all the time in the. comments section that some of you didn't. realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you. could do me a favor and double check if. you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing. that anybody that watches this show. frequently can do to help us here to.

keep everything going in this show in. the trajectory it's on. So, please do. double check if you've subscribed and uh. thank you so much because a strange way. you are you're part of our history and. you're on this journey with us and I. appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank. you. Mo, two years ago today, we sat here and. discussed AI. We discussed your book, Scary, Smart, and everything that was. happening in the world. Since then, AI has continued to develop. at a tremendous, alarming, mind-boggling.

rate, and the technologies that existed. 2 years ago when we had that. conversation have grown up and matured. and are taking on a life of their own, no pun intended. What are what are you. thinking about AI now, two years on? I. know that you've started writing a new. book called Alive, which is I guess a. bit of a follow on or an evolution of. your thoughts as it relates to scary. smart. >> What what is front of your mind when it. comes to AI? >> It's a scary smart was shockingly. accurate. It's quite a I mean I don't.

even know how I ended up writing. predicting those things. I remember it. was written in 2020, published in 2021. and then most people were like um who. wants to talk about AI you know I know. everybody in the media and I would go. and do you want to talk and then 2023 CH. GPT comes out and everything flips. everyone realizes you know this is real. this is not science fiction this is here. and uh and things move very very fast.

much faster than I think we've ever seen. anything ever move ever And and I think. my position has changed on two very. important fronts. One is remember when. we spoke about scary smart I was still. saying that there are things we can do. to change the course. Uh and we could at. the time I believe uh now I've changed. my mind. Now I believe that we are going. to hit a a short-term dystopia. There's. no escaping that. >> What is dystopia? >> I call it face rips. We can talk about.

it in details but the the the way we. define very important parameters in life. are going to be uh completely changed. So so face rips are you know the way we. define freedom uh accountability human. connection and equality economics uh. reality innovation and business and. power. That's the first change. So the. first change in my mind is that uh is. that we uh will have to prepare for a.

world that is very unfamiliar. Okay. And. that's the next 12 to 15 years. It has. already started. We've seen examples of. it in the world already even though. people don't talk about it. I try to. tell people you know there are things we. absolutely have to do. But on the other. hand I started to take an active role in. building amazing AIs. So AIS that will. uh not only make our world better uh but. that will understand us understand what.

humanity is through that process. >> What is the definition of the word. dystopia? >> So in my in my mind these are adverse. circumstances that unfortunately might. escalate beyond our control. The problem. is the uh there is a lot wrong with the. um value set with the ethics of humanity. at the age of the rise of the machines. and when you take a technology every. technology we've ever created just. magnified human abilities. So you know.

you can walk at 5 km an hour you get in. a car and you can now go you know 250. 280 m an hour. Okay. uh basically. magnifying your mobility if you want you. know you can use a computer to magnify. your u calculation abilities or whatever. okay and and what AI is going to magnify. unfortunately at this time is it's going. to magnify the evil that man can do and. and it is within our hands completely. completely within our hands to change.

that but I have to say I don't think. humanity has the awareness uh at this. time to focus on. so that we actually use AI to build the. utopia. >> So what you're essentially saying is. that you now believe there'll be a. period of dystopia and to define the. word dystopia, I've used AI, it says a. terrible society where people live under. fear, control or suffering and then you. think we'll come out of that dystopia. into a utopia which is defined as a. perfect or ideal place where everything.

works well, a good society where people. live in peace, health and happiness. >> Correct. And the difference between them, interestingly, is what I normally refer. to as the second dilemma, which is the. po point where we hand over completely. to AI. So, a lot of people think that. when AI is in full control, it's going. to be an existential risk for humanity. You know, I have enough uh evidence to. to argue that when we fully hand over to. AI, that's going to be our salvation.

that the problem with us today is not, you know, that intelligence is going to. work against us. It's that our stupidity. as humans is working against us. And I. think the challenges that will come from. humans being in control uh are going to. outweigh the. the challenges that could come from AI. being in control. >> So, as we're in this dystopia period, did you do you forecast the length of. that dystopia? Yeah, I count I count it. exactly as 12 to 15 years. I I believe.

the beginning of the slope will happen. in 2027. I mean it we will see signs in. 26. We've seen signs in 24 but we will. see escalating signs next year and then. a a clear uh slip in 27. >> Why? >> The geopolitical environment of our. world is not very positive. I mean you. really have to think deeply about not. the not the symptoms but the the reasons.

why we are living the world that we live. in here in today is money right and uh. and money for anyone who knows who. really knows money's you and I are. peasants you know we build businesses we. contribute to the world we make things. we sell things and so on real money is. not made there at all real money is made. in lending in fractional reserve, right? And and you know the biggest lender uh.

in the world would want reasons to lend. and those reasons are never as big as. war. I mean think about it, huh? Uh the. world spent $2.71. trillion on war in 2024, right? A trillion dollars a year in the. US. And when you really think deeply, I. don't mean to be scary here. You know, weapons have depreciation.

They depreciate over 10 to 30 years. Most weapons, >> they lose their value. >> They lose their value and they. depreciate in accounting terms on the. books of an army. The current arsenal of. the US, that's a result of a deep search. with my AI Trixie. You know the current. arsenal I think we we think cost the US. 24 to 26 trillion dollars to build. My. conclusion is that a lot of the wars. that are happening around the world. today are a means to get rid of those. weapons so that you can have replace. them. And uh you know when when your.

morality as an industry is we're. building weapons to kill then you know. you might as well use the weapons to. kill. >> Who benefits? the lenders and the. industry, >> but but they can't make the decision to. go to war. They they have to rely on. >> remember I I said that to you when we I. think on on our third podcast. War is. decided first. then the story is manufactured. You you. remember 1984 and the Orwellian approach.

of like you know uh freedom is slavery. and uh war is peace and they call it uh. something speak uh basically to to to to. convince people that going to war in. another country to to kill 4.7 million. people is freedom. You know we're going. there to free the Iraqi people. Is war ever freedom? you know, to to. tell someone that you're going to kill. 300,000.

women and children is for liberty and. for the the the you know, for human. values. Seriously, how do we ever get to believe. that the story is manufactured and then. we follow and humans because we're. gullible uh we cheer up and we say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are we're on the. right side. They are the bad guys.". >> Okay. So, let me let me have a let me. have a go at this idea. So, the idea is. that really money is driving a lot of.

the conflict we're seeing and it's. really going to be driving the dystopia. So, here's an idea. So, I um I was. reading something the other day and it. talked about how. billionaires are never satisfied because. actually what a billionaire wants isn't. actually more money. It is more status. Correct. And I was looking at the sort. of evolutionary case for this argument. And if you go back a couple of thousand. years, money didn't exist. You were as wealthy. as what you could carry. So even I think.

to the human mind, the idea of wealth. and money. isn't a thing. what we've but what has. always mattered from a survival of the. fittest from a reproductive standpoint. what's always had reproductive value if. you go back thousands of years the. person who was able to mate the most was. the person with the most status so it. makes the case the reason why. billionaires get all of this money but. then they go on podcasts and they want. to start their own podcast and they want. to buy newspapers is actually because at. the very core of human beings is a.

desire to increase their status. >> Yeah. And so if we think of when we. going back to the example of why wars. are breaking out, maybe it's not money. Maybe actually it's status and and it's. this prime minister or this leader or. this, you know, individual wanting to. create more power and more status. because really at the heart of what. matters to a human being is having more. power and more status. And money is. actually money as a thing is actually. just a proxy of my status.

>> And and what kind of world is that? >> I mean, it's a [ __ ] up one. all these. all these powerful men have uh. >> correct. >> are really messing the world up. But. >> so so can can I can I can I. >> actually AI is the same. >> because we're in this AI race now where. a lot of billionaires are like if I get. AGI artificial general intelligence. first then I basically rule the world. >> 100%. That's exactly the the concept. what I what I used to call the the the. first inevitable now I call the first. dilemma and scary smart is that it's. it's a race that constantly accelerates.

You think the next 12 years are going to. be AI dystopia where things aren't. >> I think the next 12 years are going to. be human dystopia using AI. >> humaninduced dystopia using AI. >> and you define that by a rise in warfare. around the world as. >> the last the last one the RIP the last. one is basically you're going to have a. massive concentration of power and a. massive distribution of power okay and. that basically will mean that those with. the maximum concentration of power are.

going to try to oppress those with with. democracy of power. Okay, so think about. it this way in today's world um unlike. the past. uh. you know the Houthis with a drone the. Houthis are the Yemeni uh tribes. basically resisting US power and Israeli. power in the Red Sea. Okay. They use a. drone that is $3,000 worth to attack a. uh a warship from from the US or an.

airplane from the US and so on that's. worth hundreds of millions. Okay, that. kind of democracy of power makes those. in power worry a lot about where the. next threat is coming from. Okay, and. this happens not only in war but also in. economics. Okay, also in innovation, also in technology and so on and so. forth, right? And so basically what that. means is that like you rightly said as. the the the tech oligarchs are. attempting to get to AGI.

They want to make sure that as soon as. they get to AGI that nobody else has AGI. and and basically they want to make sure. that nobody else has the ability to. shake their position of privilege if you. want. Okay. And so you're going to see a. world where unfortunately there's going. to be a lot of control, a lot of. surveillance, a lot of um of forced. compliance if you want or you lose your. privilege to be in the world and and it.

is happening already. >> With this acronym, I want to make sure. we get through the whole acronym. So. >> you like dystopians, don't you? >> I want to do the dystopian thing, then I. want to do the utopia. >> Okay. >> And ideally how we move from dystopia to. utopia. >> Mhm. So the the the the F in face R. >> is the loss of freedom as a result of. that power dichotomy. Right? So you have. you have a massive amount of power as. you can see today in uh one specific. army being powered by the US uh funds.

and a lot of money righting against. peasants really that have no weapons. almost at all. >> Okay. Some of them uh are militarized. but the majority of the mill two million. people are not. Okay. And so there is. massive massive power that basically. says, you know what, I'm going to. oppress as far as I go. Okay. And I'm. going to do whatever I want because the. cheerleaders are going to be quiet, right? Or they're going to cheer or even. worse. Huh? And so basically in in that.

what happens is max maximum power. threatened by a democracy of power leads. to a loss of freedom. A loss of freedom. for everyone. >> Because how does that impact my freedom? >> Your freedom. Yeah, >> very soon uh you will if you publish. this episode you're going to start to. get questions around should you be. talking about this those topics in your. podcast. Okay. Uh you know uh if I uh. have been on this episode then probably.

next time I land in the US someone will. question me say why do you say those. things? Which side are you on? Right? and and and and you know you can easily. see that everything I mean I I told you. that before doesn't matter what I try to. contribute to the world my bank will. cancel my bank account every 6 weeks. simply because of my ethnicity and my. origin right every now and then they'll. just stop my my bank account and say we. need a document. my other colleagues of a different color.

or a different ethnicity don't get asked. for another document right but but but. that's because I come from an ethnicity. that is positioned in the world for the. last 30 40 years as the uh enemy. Okay? And and so when you really really think. about it, in a world where everything is. becoming digital, in a world where. everything is monitored, in a world. where everything is seen, okay, we don't. have much freedom anymore. And I'm not. actually debating that or or I don't see.

a way to fix that. >> because the AI is going to have more. information on us, be better at tracking. who we are, and therefore that will. result in certain freedoms being. restricted. Is that what you're saying? >> This is one element of it. Okay. If you. push that element further. in in in in a very short time if you've. seen agent for example recently manos or. chat GPT there will be a time where you. know you'll simply not do things. yourself anymore. Okay. You'll simply go. to your AI and say hey by the way I'm.

going to meet Stephen. Can you please. you know book that for me? >> Great. >> And and and yeah and it will do. absolutely everything. That's great. until the moment where it decides to do. things that are not motivated only by. your well-being. Right. Why would he do. that? >> Simply because, you know, maybe if I buy. a BA ticket instead of an Emirates. ticket, some agent is going to make more. money than other agents and so on, right? Uh and I wouldn't be able to even. catch it up if I hand over completely to. an AI. Uh go go a step further. Huh?

Think about a world where everyone. almost everyone is on UBI. Okay. >> What's UBI? >> Universal basic income. I mean, think. about the economics, the E and face. rips. Think about the economics of a. world where we're going to start to see. a trillionaire. before 2030. I can guarantee you that. someone will be a trillionaire. I'm I'm. you know I think there are many. trillionaires in the world today or. there we just don't know who they are. But there will be a new Elon Musk or.

Larry Allison that will become a. trillionaire because of AI investments, right? And and that trillionaire will. have so much money to buy everything. There will be robots and AIs doing. everything and humans will have no jobs. Mean. >> do you think that's a there's a real. possibility of job displacement over the. next 10 years? And the the rebuttal to. that would be that there's going to be. new jobs created in technology. >> Absolute crap. >> Really?

>> Of course. >> How how can you be so sure? >> Okay. So again, I am not sure about. anything. So So let's just be very very. clear. It would be very arrogant. Okay. To assume that I know. >> you just said it was crap. >> My my belief is it is 100% crap. >> Take a job like software developer. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh Emma would love my my new. startup is me, Senad, another technical. engineer and a lot of AIS. Okay. That. startup would have been 350 developers.

in the past. >> I get that. Um but are you now hiring in. other roles because of that or or you. know as is the case with the steam. engine? I can't remember the effect but. there's you probably know that when. steam when coal became cheaper people. were worried that the coal industry. would go out of business but actually. what happened is people used more trains. so trains now were used for transport. and other things and leisure whereas. before they were just used for commu for. um cargo. Yeah. So there became more use.

cases and the coal industry exploded. So. I'm wondering with technology, yeah, software developers are going to maybe. not have as many jobs, but there. everything's going to be software. >> Name me one. >> Name you one. What. >> job? >> Name you that's going to be created. >> Yeah. One job that cannot be done by an. AI. >> Yeah. >> Or a robot. >> My girlfriend's breath work retreat. business where she takes groups of women. around the world. Her company is called. Barley Breathwork. And there's going to. be a greater demand for connection,

human connection. >> Correct. Keep going. >> So there's going to be more people doing. community events in real life festivals. I think we're going to see a huge surge. in things like. >> everything that has to do with human. connection. >> Yeah, >> correct. I'm totally in with that. Okay. What's the percentage of that versus. accountant? >> It's a much smaller percentage for sure. in terms of white collar jobs. >> Now, who does she sell to? >> People with probably what? probably. accountants or you know. >> correct she she sells to people who earn.

money from their jobs. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So you have two forces happening. One force is there are clear jobs that. will be replaced. Video editor is going. to be replaced. Uh. >> excuse me. >> I love. as as a matter of fact podcaster is. going to be replaced. >> Thank you for coming on today Mo. It was. seeing you again. But but but the truth is a lot so so you. see the best at any job will remain the. best software developer the one that.

really knows architecture knows. technology and so on will stay for a. while right and you know one of the. funniest things I I interviewed Max. Tedmar and Max was laughing out loud. saying CEOs are celebrating that they. can now get rid of people and have. productivity gains and cost reductions. because AI can do that job. The one. thing they don't think of is AI will. replace them too. AGI is going to be. better than at everything than humans at. everything including being a CEO. Right?

And you really have to imagine that. there will be a time where most. incompetent CEOs will be replaced. Most. incompetent even breath work. Okay. Eventually there might actually one of. two things be two things be happening. on one is either uh you know part part. of that job other than the top breath. work instructors, okay, are going you. know who are going to gather all of the.

people that can still afford to pay for. a breath work you know class. they're going to be concentrated at the. top and a lot of the bottom is not going. to be working for one of two reasons. One is either there is not enough demand. because so many people lost their jobs. So when you're on UBI, you cannot tell. the government, hey by the way, pay me a. bit more for a breath work class. >> UBI being universal basic income just. gives you money every month. >> Correct. And if you really think of.

freedom and economics, UBI is a very. interesting place to be because. unfortunately I as I said there's. absolutely nothing wrong with AI. There's a lot wrong with the value set. of humanity at the age of the rise of. the machines, right? And the biggest. value set of humanity is capitalism. today. And capitalism is all about what? Labor arbitrage. >> What's that mean? >> I I I hire you to do something. I pay. you a dollar. I pay it I sell it for. two. Okay. And and most people confuse that.

because they say, "Oh, but the cost of a. product also includes raw materials and. factories and so on and so forth." All. of that is built is built by labor, right? So, so basically labor goes and. mines for the material and then the. material is sold for a little bit of. margin then that material is turned into. a machine. It's sold for a little bit of. margin then that machine and so on. Okay, there's always labor arbitrage in. a world where humanity's minds are being. replaced by uh by AIs, virtual AIs, okay, and humanity's power strength.

within 3 to 5 years time can be replaced. by a robot, you really have to question how this. world looks like. It could be the best. world ever. And that's what I believe. the utopia will look like because we. were never made to wake up every morning. and just, you know, occupy 20 hours of. our day with work, right? We're not made. for that. But we've fit into that uh uh, you know, system so well so far that we.

started to believe it's our life's. purpose. >> But we choose it. We willingly choose. it. And if you give someone unlimited. money, they still tend to go back to. work or find something to occupy their. time with. >> They find something to occupy their time. with, >> which is usually for so many people is. building something. Philanthropy, a. business%. So you build something. So. between Senad and I, Emma. Love is not. about making money. It's about finding. true love relationships. >> What is that? Sorry, just for context. >> So So you know,

>> it's a business you're building just for. the audience context. So, so, so the. idea here is I can, it might become a. unicorn and be worth a billion dollars, but neither I nor Senate are interested, okay? We're doing it because we can, okay? And we're doing it because it can. make a massive difference to the world. >> And you have money, though. >> It doesn't take that much money anymore. to build anything in the world. This is. labor arbitrage. >> But to build something exceptional, it's. still going to take a little bit more. money than building something bad.

>> for the next few years. So whoever has. the capital to build something. exceptional will end up winning. >> So so this is a very interesting. understanding of freedom. Okay. This is. the reason why we have the AI arms race. Okay. Is that the one that owns the. platform is going to be making all the. money and and keeping all the power. Think think of it this way. When. humanity started the best hunter in the. tribe could maybe feed the tribe for. three to four more years more days. H.

and as a as a reward, he gained the. favor of multiple mates in the tribe. That's it. The top farmer in the tribe. could feed the tribe for a season more. Okay? And as a result, they got estates. and you know uh and mansions and so on. The best industrialist in the in a in a. city could actually employ the whole. city, could grow the GDP of their entire. country. And as a result, they became. millionaires. the 1920s. H the best technologists.

now are billionaires. Now what's the. difference between them? The tool the. the hunter only rem depended on their. skills and the automation the entire. automation he had was a spear. The. farmer had way more automation. And the. biggest automation was what? The soil. The soil did most of the work. The. factory did most of the work. the the. network did most of the work. And so.

that inc incredible expansion of wealth. and power and as well the the incredible. impact that something brings is entirely. around the tool that automates. So who's. going to own the tool? Who's going to. own the the the digital soil, the AI. soil? It's the platform owners. >> And the platforms you're describing are. things like OpenAI, Gemini, Grock. These. these are interfaces to the platforms. The platforms are all of the uh of the. uh um tokens, all of the compute that is.

in the background, all of the uh all of. the uh uh methodology, the systems, the. algorithms, that's the platform, the AI. itself. You know, Grock is the interface. to it. I think this is probably worth. explaining in layman's terms to people. that haven't built AI tools yet because. I think I think to the listener. they probably think that every AI. company they're hearing of right now is. building their own AI whereas actually. what's happening is there is really.

five, six, seven AI companies in the. world and when I built my AI application. I basically. >> pay them for every time I use their AI. So if Steven Bartlett builds an AI at. stephvenai.com, it's not that I've built my own. underlying I've trained my own model. Really what I'm doing is I'm paying. Sam Alman's chat GPT. Um every single. time I do a a call, I basically um I do.

a search or you know I use a token. And. I think that's really important because. most people don't understand that unless. you've built AI, you think, "Oh, look, you know, there's all these AI companies. popping up. I've got this one for my. email. I've got this one for my dating. I've got No, no, no, no, no. They're. pretty much I would be I would hazard a. guess that they're probably all OpenAI. at this point. >> No, there are quite a few quite. different characters and quite. differently, >> but there's like five or six. >> There are five or six when it comes to. language models. Yeah. Right. Uh but.

interestingly, so yes, I I should say. yes to start and then I should say but. there was an interesting twist with. Deepseek at the beginning of the year. So what Deepseek did is is they. basically uh nullified the business. model if you want in two ways. one is it. was around a week or two after uh you. know Trump stood you know with pride. saying Stargate is the biggest. investment project in the history and. it's $500 billion to build AI.

infrastructure and soft bank and Larry. Allison and and uh Sam Alman were. sitting and so you know beautiful. picture and then DeepSeek R3 comes out. it does the job for a one over 30 of the. cost okay and interestingly is entire. open source and available as an edge AI. So, so that's really really interesting. because there could be now in the future. as the technology improves the learning. models will be massive but then you can.

compress them into something you can. have on your phone and you can download. deepseek literally offline on a. um um you know an off the network. computer and build an AI on it. There's. a website that basically tracks the. um sort of cleanest apples to Apple's. market share of all the website. referrals sent by AI chat bots and. chatbt is currently at 79% roughly about. 80%. Perplexi is at 11, Microsoft. copilot about five, Google Gemini is at. about two, Claude's about one and.

Deepseek is about 1%. And really like. the the point that I I want to land is. just that when you hear of a new AI app. or tool or this one can make videos, >> it's built on one of them. It's. basically built on one of these. really three or four AI platforms that's. controlled really by three or four AI. you know billionaire teams and actually. the one of them that gets to what we. call AGI first where the AI gets really. really advanced.

one could say is potentially going to. rule the world as it relates to. technology. >> Yes. Uh if if they get enough uh head. start. So, so I actually think that uh. what I what I'm more concerned about now. is not AGI, believe it or not. So, AGI. in my mind and I said that back in 2023, right? Uh that we will get to AGI. At. the time I said 2027, now I believe 2026.

latest. Okay. The most interesting. development that nobody's talking about. is self-evolving AIS. self evolving AIS is. think of it this way if you and I are. hiring the top engineer in the world to. develop our AI models. and with AGI that top engineer in the. world becomes an AI who would you hire. to develop your next generation AI that. AI. >> the one that can teach itself.

>> correct so one of my favorite examples. is called Alpha Evolve so this is. Google's attempt to basically have four. agents working together four AIs working. together to look at the at the code of. the AI and say where is the where are. the performance issues then you know an. agent would say what's the problem. statement what can I uh you know what do. I need to fix uh one that actually. develops the solution one that assesses. the solution and then they continue to. do this and you know I don't remember.

the exact figure but I think Google. improved like 8% uh on their AI. infrastructure because of alpha evol. Right? And when you really really think, don't quote me on the number 8 to 10, 6. to 10, whatever in Google terms, by the. way, that is massive. That's billions. and billions of dollars. Now, the the. the the trick here is this. The trick is. again, you have to think in game theory. format. Is there any scenario we can think of. where if one player uses AI to develop.

the next generation AI that the other. players will say no no no no no that's. too much you know takes us out of. control every other player will copy. that model and have their next AI model. developed by an AI. >> Is this what Sam Alman talks about who's. the founder of um chatbt/openai. when he talks about a fast takeoff? I. don't know exactly what which what what. which you're referring to but we're all. talking about a point now that we call. the intelligence explosion. So, so there.

is a moment in time where you have to. imagine that if AI now is better than. 97% of all code developers in the world. and soon we'll be able to look at its. own code own algorithms by the way. they're becoming incredible. mathematicians which wasn't the case. when we last met if they can develop. improve their own code improve their own. algorithms improve their own uh uh you. know uh network architecture or whatever. you can imagine that very quickly the.

force applied to developing the next AI. is not going to be a human brain. anymore. It's going to be a much smarter. brain and very quickly as humans like. basically when when we ran the Google. infrastructure when the machine said we. need another server or a proxy server in. that place we followed. we we never. really you know wanted to to object or. verify because you know the code would. probably know better because there are. billions of transactions an hour or a. day and so very quickly those.

self-evolving AIs will simply say I need. 14 more servers here and we'll just you. know the team will just go ahead and do. it. I watched a video a couple of days. ago where he Sam Alman effectively had. changed his mind because in 2023 which. is when we last met he said the aim was. for um a slow takeoff which is sort of. gradual deployment and open AI's 203. 2023 note says a slower takeoff is. easier to make safe and they prefer.

iterative rollouts society can adapt in. 2025. >> they changed their mind and Sam Alman. said. He now thinks a fast takeoff is more. possible than he did a couple of years. ago on the order of a small number of. years rather than a decade. Um, and it. to define what we mean by a fast. takeoff, it's defined as when AI goes. from roughly human level to far beyond. human very quickly, think months to a.

few years, faster than governments, companies, or society can adapt with. little warning, big power shifts, and. hard to control. A slow takeoff, by. contrast, is where capabilities climb. gradually over many years with lots of. warning shots. Um, and the red flags for. a fast takeoff is when AI can. self-improve, run autonomous research. and development and scale with massive. compute compounding gains which will. snowball fast. So, and I think from the.

video that I watched of Sam Orman. recently, who again is the founder of. Open Air and HBT, he basically says, and. again I'm paraphrasing here. I will put. it on the screen. We have this community. knows things so I'll write it on the. screen. But he effectively said that. whoever gets to AGI first will have the. technology. >> to develop super intelligence. >> where the AI can can rapidly increase. its own intelligence and it will. basically leave everyone else behind. >> Yes. Uh so that last bit is debatable. but but let's just agree that uh so so.

in in a live uh you know one of the. posts I I shared and got a lot of. interest is I refer to the the altman as. a brand not as a human. Okay. So the. altman is that uh persona of a. California disruptive technologist that. disrespects everyone. Okay. and believes. that disruption is good for humanity and. believes that this is good for safety. and like everything else like we say war. is for democracy and freedom they say uh.

developing you know putting AI on the. open internet is good for everyone right. it allows us to learn from our mistakes. that was Sam Alman's 2023 spiel and if. you recall at the time I was like this. is the most dangerous you know one of. the clips that really went viral you so. you're you're so clever at finding the. right clips is when I said. >> I didn't I didn't do the clipping mate. >> they're team teams remember the clip. where I said we [ __ ] up we always said.

don't put them on the open internet. until we know what we're putting out in. the world I'm going to be saying that. >> yeah we we we [ __ ] up on putting it on. the open internet teaching it to to code. and putting you know agents AI agents. prompting other AIs now AI agents. prompting other AIs are leading to. self-developing AIS and and The problem. is, of course, we, you know, anyone who. has been on the inside of this knew that. this was just a clever spiel made by a. PR manager for Sam Alman to sit with his.

dreamy eyes in front of Congress and. say, "We want you to regulate us." Now, they're saying, "We're unregulable.". Okay? And and when you really understand. what's happening here, what's happening. is it's so fast. that none of them has the choice to slow. down. It's impossible. Neither China. versus America or OpenAI versus Google. the that the the only thing that I may.

have may see happening that you you know. that that may differ a little bit from. your statement is if one of them gets. there first uh then they dominate for. the rest of humanity that is probably. true if they get there first uh with. within enough buffer. Okay. But the way. you look at Grock coming a week after. open AI, a week after uh you know. Gemini, a week after Claude and then. Claude comes again and then China.

releases something and then Korea. releases some something. It is so fast. that we may get a few of them at the. same time or a few months apart. Okay, before one of them has enough power to. become dominant. And that is a very. interesting scenario. multiple AIs, all super intelligent. >> It's funny, you know, I I I got asked. yesterday, I was in I was in Belgium on. stage. There was, I don't know, maybe. 4,000 people in the audience and a kid. stood up and he was like, um, you've had.

a lot of conversations in the last year. about AI. Like, why do you care? And I. don't think people realize how, even though I've had so many. conversations on this podcast about AI, you. >> haven't made up your mind. >> I I I have more questions than ever. >> I know. And it's and it doesn't seem. that anyone can satiate. >> Anyone that tells you they can predict. the future is arrogant. >> Yeah. >> It is. It's never moved so fast. >> It's nothing like nothing I've ever. seen. And you know, by the time that we. leave this conversation and I go to my. computer, there's going to be some.

incredible new technology or application. of AI that didn't exist when I woke up. this morning. That creates probably. another paradigm shift in my brain. Also, you know, I people have different. opinions of Elon Musk and they're. they're entitled to their own opinion, but the other day, only a couple of days. ago, he did a tweet where he said, "At. times, AI existential dread is. overwhelming." And on the same day, he. tweeted, "I resisted AI for too long, living in denial. Now it is game on.".

And he tagged his AI companies. I don't. know what to make of I don't know what. to make of those tweets. I don't know. And you know, I. I try really hard to figure out if. someone like Sam Wman has the best. interests of society at heart. >> No. >> Or if these people are just like. >> I'm saying that publicly. No. As a matter of fact, so I know Sundur.

Pachai. I work CEO of Alphabet, Google's. parent company. an amazing human being. on in all honesty. I know Dennis Hassab. is amazing human being. Okay. Uh you. know these are are ethical incredible uh. humans at heart. They have no choice. Uh Sund by law. is uh demanded to take care of his his. shareholder value. That's that is his.

job. >> But Sund you said you know him. You used. to work at Google. >> Yeah. He's not going to do anything that. he thinks is going to harm humanity. >> But if if he does not continue to. advance AI, that by definition uh uh uh. contradicts his responsibility as the. CEO of a publicly traded company, he is. liable by law to continue to advance the. agenda. There's absolutely no doubt. about it. Now, so but but he's a good. person at heart. Deis is a good person. at heart. So they're trying so hard to. make it safe. Okay? As much as they can.

Reality however is the the the disruptor. the altman as a brand doesn't care that. much. >> How do you know that? >> In reality the disruptor is someone that. comes in with the objective of I don't. like the status quo. I have a different. approach. And that different approach if. you just look at the story was we are a. nonforprofit that is funded mostly by. Elon Musk money. It's not entirely by. Elon Musk money. So context for people.

that might not understand Open AI. The. reason I always give context is funnily. enough I I think I told you this last. time. I went to a prison where they play. the D of CEO. >> No way. >> So they play the D of CO and I think. it's 50 prisons in the UK to young. offenders. >> and no violence there. >> Well, I don't know. I can't I can't I. can't tell you whether violence has gone. up or down. But I was in the cell with. one of the prisoners, a young a young. black guy, and I was in his cell for for. a little while. I was reading through. his business plan, etc. And I said, "You. know what? You need to listen to this. conversation that I did with Mo Gordat.". So I he has a little screen in his cell.

So I pulled it up, you know, our first. conversation. I said, "You should listen. to that one." And he said to me, he. said, "I can't listen to that one cuz. you guys use big words.". >> So ever since that day, which was about. >> I noticed that about days four years. ago, sorry. >> I've always whenever I hear a big word, I think about this kid. >> Yeah. >> And I say like give context. So even. with the you're about to explain what. Open AI is, I know he won't know what. Open AI's origin story was. That's why. I'm. >> I think that's a wonderful practice in. general. By the way, even, you know,

being a non native English speaker, >> you'll be amazed how often a word is. said to me and I I'm like, yeah, don't. know what that means. >> So, like I've actually never said this. publicly before, but I now see it as my. responsibility to be to to keep the draw. the drawbridge. to accessibility of these conversations. down for him. So, whenever I whenever. there's a word that at some point in my. life I didn't know what it meant, >> I will go back. I was like, what does. that mean? I think that I've noticed. that in the you know more and more in.

your podcast and I really appreciate and. we also show it on the screen sometimes. >> I I think that's wonderful. I mean the. the the origin story of open AI is as. the name suggests it's open source. It's. for the public good. It was an in you. know intended in Elon Musk's words to. save the world from the dangers of AI. right so they were doing research on. that and then you know there was the. disagreement between Sam Alman and and. Elon somehow Elon ends up being out of.

uh of uh of open AI. I think there was a. moment in time where he tried to take it. back and you know the board rejected it. or some something like that. most of the. uh top um safety engineers, the top. technical teams in open AI left in 2023. 2024 openly saying we're not concerned. with safety anymore. It moves from being. a nonforprofit to being one of the most. valued companies in the world. There are. billions of dollars at stake, right? And.

if you if you tell me that Sam Altman is. out there trying to help humanity, let's. let's suggest to him and say, "Hey, do. you want to do that for free? We'll pay. you a very good salary, but you don't. have stocks in this. Saving humanity. doesn't come at the billion dollar. valuation or of course now tens of. billions or hundreds of billions." And. and and see truly that is when you know. that someone is doing it for the good of. humanity. Now the the capitalist system.

we've built is not built for the good of. humanity. It's built for the good of the. capitalist. >> Well, he might say that releasing the. model publicly, open sourcing it is too. risky. because then bad actors around the world. would have access to that technology. So. he might say that closing open AI in. terms of not making it publicly viewable. is the right thing to do for safety. We. go back to gullible cheer leaders,

right? One of the interesting tricks is. of lying in our world is everyone will. say what helps their agenda. Follow the. money. Okay, you follow the money and. you find that you know at a point in. time Samman himself was saying it's open. AI. Okay, my benefit at the time is to. give it to the world so that the world. looks at it. They know the code if there. is if there are any bugs and so on. True. statement. Also a true statement is if I.

put it out there in the world, a. criminal might take that model and build. something that's against humanity as a. result. Also true statement. Capitalists. will choose which one of the truths to. say, right? Based on which part of the. agenda, which part of their life today. they want to serve, right? Someone will. say, uh, you know, do I do you want me. to be controversial? Let's not go there. But if we go back to. war, I'll give you 400 slogans. 400 slogans that we all hear that change.

based on the day and the army and the. location and the they're all slogans. None of them is true. You want to know. the truth. You follow the money, not. what the person is saying, but ask. yourself why is the person saying that? What's in it for the person speaking? >> And what do you think's in it for Chachi. Samman? hundreds of billions of dollars. of of of valuation. >> And do you think it's that power? >> The ego of being the person that.

invented AGI, the position of power that. this gives you, the meetings with all of. the heads of states, the admiration that. gets it, it is intoxicating. >> 100%. 100%. Okay. And and the real question, this is. a question I ask everyone. Did you see. you didn't you're every time I ask you. you say you didn't. Did you see the. movie Elysium? >> No. You'd be surprised how little movie. watching I do. You'd be shocked. >> There are some movies that are very.

interesting. I use them to to create an. emotional attachment to a story that you. haven't seen yet because you may have. seen it in a movie. Okay. Elissium is a. is a society where the elites are living. on the moon. Okay. They don't need. peasants to do the work anymore and. everyone else is living down here. Okay. You have to imagine that if again game. theory you have to im you know picture. something to infinity to its extreme and. see where it goes and the extreme of a. world where all manufactured is done.

manufacturing is done by machines. where all decisions are made by machines. and those machines are owned by a few. is not an economy similar to the to. today to the to today's economy. that today's economy is an economy of. consumerism and and product and. production. You know, it's the it's the. in in alive I call it the invention of. more. The invention of more is that post. World War II as the factories were.

rolling out things and prosperity was. happening everywhere in America. There. was a time where every family had enough. of everything. >> But for the capitalist to continue to be. profitable, they needed to convince you. that what you had was not enough. either. by making it obsolete like fashion or. like you know a new shape of a car or. whatever or by convincing you that there. are more things in life that you need so. that you become complete without those. things you don't and and that invention.

of more gets us to where we are today an. economy that's based on production. consumed and if you look at the US. economy today 62% of the US economy GDP. is consumption it's not production okay. Now, this requires that the consumers. have enough purchasing power to to buy. what is produced. And I believe that. this will be an economy that will take. us hopefully in the next 10, 15, 20.

years and forever. But that's not. guaranteed. Why? Because on one side if. UBI replaces purchasing power. So if. people have to get an income from the. government which is basically taxes. collected from those using AI and robots. to to make things. the then the the mindset of capitalism. labor arbitrage means those people are. not producing anything and they're. costing me money. Why don't we pay them. less and less and maybe even not pay.

them at all? And that becomes illissium. where you basically say, you know, we. sit somewhere protected from everyone. We have the machines do all of our work. and those need to worry about. themselves. We're not going to pay them. UBI anymore, right? And and you have to. imagine this idea of UBI assumes this. very democratic caring society. UBI in itself is communism.

Think of the ideology between at least. socialism. The ideology of giving. everyone what they need. That's not the. capitalist. democratic society that the west. advocates. So those transitions are. massive in magnitude. And for those transitions to happen, I. believe the right thing to do when the. cost of producing everything is almost. zero because of AI and robots. because the cost of harvesting energy.

should actually tend to zero once we get. more intelligent to harvest the energy. out of thin air. Then a possible. scenario and and I believe a scenario. that AI will eventually do in the utopia. is yeah anyone can get anything they. want. Don't over consume. We're not. going to abuse the the planet resources. but it costs nothing. So like the old. days where we were hunter gatherers, you. would, you know, forge for some berries. and you'll find them ready in in nature.

Okay, we can in 10 years time, 12 years. time build a society where you can forge. for an iPhone in nature. It will be made. out of thin air. Nanopysics will allow. you to do that. Okay? But the challenge, believe it or not, is not tech. The. challenge is a mindset. Because the. elite, why would they give you that for. free? Okay. And the system would morph. into, no, no, hold on. We will make more. money. We will be bigger capitalists. We. will feed our ego and hunger for power.

more and more. And for them, give them. UBI and then 3 weeks later give them. less UBI. >> Aren't there going to be lots of new. jobs created though? Because when we. think about the other revolutions over. time, whether it was the industrial. revolution or other sort of big. technological revolutions, >> in the moment we forecasted that. everyone was going to lose their jobs, >> but we couldn't see all the new jobs. that were being created. >> because the the the machines.

replaced the human strength at a point. in time. And very few places in the west. today will have a worker carry things on. their back and carry it upstairs. The. machine does that work. Correct. >> Yeah. >> Uh similarly. AI is going to replace the brain of a. human. And when the west in its. interesting uh virtual colonies that I. call it uh basically outsourced all. labor to the to the developing nations.

What the West publicly said at the time. is we're we're going to be a services. economy. We we're we're not interested. in making things and stitching things. and so on. Let the Indians and Chinese. and you know Bengali and Vietnamese do. that. We're going to do more refined. jobs. Knowledge workers. We're going to. call them. Knowledge workers are people. who work with information and click on a. keyboard and move a mouse and you know. sit in meetings and all we produce in. the western societies is what words.

right or designs maybe sometimes but. everything we produce can be produced by. an AI. So if I give you an AI tomorrow h where. I give you a piece of land, I give the. AI a piece of land and I say here are. the parameters of my land. Here is its. location on Google maps. Design an. architecturally sound villa for me. I. care about a lot of light and I need. three bedrooms. I want my bathrooms to. be in white marble, whatever. And the AI.

produces it like that. How often will. you go to an to an architect and say. right so what will the architect do the. best of the best of the architects will. either use AI to produce that or you. will consult with them and say hey you. know I've seen this and they'll say it's. really pretty but it wouldn't feel right. for the person that you are yeah those. jobs will remain but how many of them. will remain. how how often do you think uh how many.

more years. Do you think I will be able. to create a book that is smarter than. AI? Not many. I will still be able to. connect to a human. You're not going to. hug an AI when you meet them like you. hug me, right? But that's not enough of. a job. So why do I say that? Remember I asked. you at the beginning of the podcast to. remind me of solutions. Why do I say. that? Because there are ideological.

shifts and and concrete actions that. need to be taken by governments today. rather than waiting until COVID is. already everywhere and then locking. everyone down. Governments could have. reacted before the first patient or at. least at patient zero or at least at. patient 50. They didn't. H what I'm. trying to say is there is no doubt that. lots of jobs will be lost. There's no. doubt that there will be sectors of. society where 10 20 30 40 50% of all.

developers, all software uh you know all. graphic designers, all um uh uh u online. marketers, all all all assistances. are going to be out of a job. So are we. prepared as a society to do that? Can we. tell our governments there is an. ideological shift? This is very close to. social socialism and and communism. Okay. And are we ready from a budget. point of view instead of spending a a.

trillion dollars a year on on arms and. and explosives and you know autonomous. weapons that will oppress people because. we can't feed them? Can we please shift. that? I did those numbers. Huh. Uh again. I I go back to military spending because. it's all around us. 2.71 trillion. 2.4. to2.7 is the estimate of 2024. how much. money we're spending on military. >> on Yeah. on military equipment on things. that we're going to explode into smoke.

and death. Extreme poverty worldwide. Extreme poverty is people that are below. the poverty line. Extreme poverty. everywhere in the world could end for 10. to 12% of that budget. So if we replace. our military spending 10% of that to go. to people who are in extreme poverty, nobody will be poor in the world. Okay. You can end uh world hunger for less. than 4%. Nobody would be hungry in the. world. You know, if you take uh again 10. to 12% universal healthcare, every human.

being on the planet would have free. healthcare for 10 to 12% on what we're. spending on war. Now, why why do I say. this when we're talking about AI? Because that's a simple decision. If we. stop fighting. because money itself does not have the. same meaning anymore because the. economics of money is going to change. because the entire meaning of capitalism. is ending because there is no more need. for labor arbitrage because AI is doing.

everything. just with the $2.4 trillion we save in. explosives every year in arms and. weapons just for that universal. healthcare and extreme poverty. You. could actually one of the calculations. is you could end climate or combat. climate climate change meaningfully for. 100% of the military budget. >> But I I'm not even sure it's really. about the money. I think money is a. measurement stick of power. Right. >> Exactly. It's printed on demand.

>> So even in a world where we have super. intelligence and money is no longer a. problem. >> Correct. >> I still think. power is going to be. insatiable for so many people. So there. will still be war because you know. >> there will be in my view. >> the strongest I want the strongest AI. I. don't want my. >> and I don't and I don't want you know. what Harry Henry Kissinger called them. the eaters. >> The eaters. >> Yeah. Brutal as that sounds. >> What is that? The people at the bottom.

of the socioeconomic. >> that don't produce but consume. So if you had a Henry Kissinger at the. at the helm and we have so many of them, what would they think like why why. prominent military figure in the US. history? Uh you know what why would we. feed 350 million Americans America will. think but more interestingly why do we. even care about Bangladesh anymore if we. can't make our textiles there or we.

don't want to make our textile there. Do. you you know I imagine throughout human. history if we had podcasts conversations. would would have been warning of a. dystopia around the corner. You know. when they heard of technology and the. internet they would have said oh we're. finished and when the the tractor came. along they would have said oh god we're. finished because we're not going to be. able to farm anymore. So is this not. just another one of those moments where. we couldn't see around the corner so we. we forecasted unfortunate things. You. could be. I I am I'm begging that I'm.

wrong. Okay. I'm just asking if there. are scenarios that you think that can. provide that. You know, uh uh Mustafa. Sulleman in in uh you hosted him here. I. did. Yeah. He was in the coming wave. >> Yeah. >> And he speaks about uh about pessimism. aversion. Okay. that all of us people who are. supposed to be in technology and. business and so on, we're always. supposed to, you know, stand on stage. and say the future's going to be. amazing. You know, this technology I'm.

building is going to make everything. better. One of my posts in life was. called the broken promises. How often. did that happen? >> Okay. How often did social media connect. us? And how many and how often did it. make us more lonely? How how often did. mobile phones make us work less? That. was the promise. That was the promise. The promise. The early ads of Nokia were. people at parties. Is that your. experience of mobile phones? And and I.

think the whole idea is we should hope. there will be other roles for humanity. By the way, those roles would resemble. the times where we were hunter. gatherers, just a lot more technology. and a lot more safety. >> Okay. So, this is this sounds good. >> Yeah, >> this is exciting. So, I'm gonna I'm. gonna get to go outside more, be with my. friends more, >> 100%. >> Fantastic. >> And do absolutely nothing. >> Well, that doesn't sound fantastic. >> No, it does. Do be forced to do. absolutely nothing. For some people, it's amazing. For you and I, we're going.

to find the little carpentry project and. just do something. >> Speak for yourself. I'm still People are. still going to tune in. >> Okay. >> Correct. Yeah. But what? And people are. going to to tune in. >> Do you think they will? I'm not I'm not. I'm not convinced they will. And for for. as long. >> will you guys tune in? Are you guys. still going to tune in? >> I can let them answer. I believe for as. long as you make their life enriched, >> but can an AI do that better. >> without the human connection? >> Comment below. Are you going to listen.

to an AI or the Davosio? Let me know in. the comment section below. >> Remember, as incredibly intelligent as. you are, Steve, uh there will be a. moment in time where you're going to. sound really dumb compared to an AI. and. and and I will sound completely dumb. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The the depth the depth of analysis. and and gold nuggets. I mean, can you. imagine two super intelligences deciding. to get together and explain um string. theory to us?

They'll do better than any physic. physicist in the world because they. possess the physics knowledge and they. also pro possess social and language. knowledge that most deep physicists. don't. I think B2B marketeteers keep. making this mistake. They're chasing. volume instead of quality. And when you. try to be seen by more people instead of. the right people, all you're doing is. making noise. But that noise rarely. shifts the needle and it's often quite. expensive. And I know as there was the.

time in my career where I kept making. this mistake that many of you will be. making it too. Eventually I started. posting ads on our show sponsors. platform LinkedIn. And that's when. things started to change. I put that. change down to a few critical things. One of them being that LinkedIn was then. and still is today the platform where. decision makers go to not only to think. and learn but also to buy. And when you. market your business there, you're. putting it right in front of people who. actually have the power to say yes. and. you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply.

a sharper way to spend your marketing. budget. And if you haven't tried it, how. about this? Give LinkedIn ads a try, and. I'm going to give you a $100 ad credit. to get you started. If you visit. linkedin.com/diary, you can claim that right now. That's. linkedin.com/diary. I've I've really gone back and forward. on this idea that even in podcasting. that all the podcasts will be AI. podcasts or I've gone back and forward. on it and and where I landed at the end. of the day was that there'll still be a. category of media where you do want.

lived experience on something. >> 100%. >> For example, like you want to know how. the person that you follow and admire. dealt with their divorce. >> Yeah. Or or how they're struggling with. AI, >> for example. Yeah. Exactly. But I but I. think things like news, there are there. are certain situations where just like. straight news and straight facts and. maybe a walk through history may be. eroded away by AIS. But even in those. scenarios, you there's something about. personality. And again, I I hesitate.

here because I question myself. I'm not. in the camp of people that are romantic, by the way. I'm like I'm trying to be as. as orientated towards whatever is true, even if it's against my interests. And I. hope people understand that about me. like um cuz even in my companies we. experiment with like disrupting me with. AI and some people will be aware of. those experiments. >> because there will be a mix of all there. you can't imagine that the world will be. completely just AI and completely just. podcasters you know you'll see a mix of. of both you'll see things that they do.

better things that we do better. >> the the the message I'm trying to say is. we need to prep for that. >> we need to be ready for that we need to. be ready by you know talking to our. governments and saying hey it looks like. I'm a a parallegal and it looks like all. parallegals are going to be, you know, financial researchers or analysts or. graphic designers or, you know, call. center agents. It looks like half of. those jobs are being replaced already. >> You know who Jeffrey Hinton is? >> Oh, Jeffrey. I I had him on the.

documentary as well. I love Jeffrey. >> Jeffrey Hinton told me. >> trained to be a plumber. >> Really? >> Yeah. 100% for a while. >> And I I thought he was joking. 100%. >> So I asked him again and he he looked me. dead in the eye and told me that I I. should train to be a plumber. >> 100%. So so so uh it's funny uh machines. replaced labor but we still had blue. collar. Then uh you know the refined. jobs became white collar information.

workers. >> What's the refined jobs? >> You know you don't have to really carry. heavy stuff or deal with physical work. You know you sit in an in an office and. sit in meetings all day and blabber, you. know, useless [ __ ] then that's your. job. Okay? And those jobs, funny enough, in the reverse of that, because robotics. are not ready yet. Okay. And I believe. they're not ready because of a. stubbornness on the on the robotics. community around making them humanoids. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Because it takes so much to.

perfect a human like action at proper. speed. You could, you know, have many. more robots that don't look like a human. just like a self-driving car in. California. Okay, that that does already. replace drivers and and you know but but. they're delayed. So the robotic the the. replacement of physical manual labor is. going to take four to five years before. it's possible at you know at at the. quality of the AI replacing mental labor.

now and when that happens it's going to. take a long cycle to manufacture enough. robots so that they replace all of those. jobs. that cycle will take longer. Blue. collar will stay longer. >> So, I should move into blue collar and. shut down my office. >> I think you're you're not the problem. >> Okay, good. >> Let's put put it this way. There are. many people that we should care about. that are a simple travel agent or an. assistant. that will see if not replacement a. reduction in the number of pings they're.

getting. Simple as that. And someone in, you know, ministries of. labor around the world needs to sit down. and say, "What are we going to do about. that? What if all taxi drivers and Uber. drivers in uh in California get replaced. by self-driving cars? Should we start. thinking about that now, noticing that.

that trajectory makes it look like a. possibility?" I'm going to go back to. this argument which is what a lot of. people will be shouting. Yes, but there. will be new jobs or. >> and I as I said other than human. connection jobs, name me one. >> So I I've got three assistants, right? Sophie, Liam B. And okay, in the near. term there might be, you know, with AI. agents, I might not need them to help me. book flights anymore. or I might not. need them to help do scheduling anymore.

Or even I've been messing around with. this new AI tool that my friend built. and you basically when me and you trying. to schedule something like this today, I. just copy the AI in and it looks at your. calendar looks at mine and schedules it. for for us. So there might not be. scheduling needs, but my dog is sick at. the moment. And as I left this morning, I was like, damn, he's like really sick. and I've taken him to the vet over and. over again. I really need someone to. look after him and figure out what's. wrong with him. So those kinds of. responsibilities of like care. I don't. disagree at all. Again, all.

>> and and I I won't I'm not going to be I. don't know how to say this in a nice. way, but my assistants will still have. their jobs, but I I as a CEO will be. asking them to do a different type of. work. >> Correct. So, so, so this is the. calculation everyone needs to be aware. of that a lot of their current. responsibility, whoever you are, if. you're a parallegal, if you're whatever, will be handed over. So, so let me. explain it even more accurately. There. will be two stages of our interactions.

with the machines. One is what I call. the era of augmented intelligence. So, it's human intelligence augmented with. AI doing the job. And then the following. one is what I call the era of machine. mastery. The job is done completely by. an AI without a human in the loop. Okay. So in the era of augmented intelligence, your assistances will augment themselves. with an AI to either be more productive. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Or interestingly to reduce the.

number of tasks that they need to do. Correct. Now the more the number of. tasks get reduced, the more they'll have. the bandwidth and ability to do tasks. like take care of your dog, right? or. tasks that you know basically is about. meeting your guests or whatever human. connection. >> Yeah. >> Life connection. but do you think you need three for that. or maybe now that some tasks have been. you know outsourced to AI will you need.

two? You can easily calculate that from. call center agents. So from call center. agents they're not firing everyone but. they're taking the first part of the. funnel and giving it to an AI. So. instead of having 2,000 agents in a in a. call center, they can now do the job. with 1,800. I'm just making that number. up. H society needs to think about the. 200. >> And you're telling me that they won't. move into other roles somewhere else. >> I am telling you I don't know what those.

roles are. >> Well, I think we should all be. musicians. We should all be authors. We. should all be artists. We should all be. entertainers. We should all be. comedians. We should all these are roles. that will remain. We should all be plumbers for the next 5. to 10 years. Fantastic. Okay. But even. that requires society to morph. and societyy's not talking about it. Okay. I had this wonderful interview. with friends of mine, Peter Dendez and. and some of our friends and and they. were saying, "Oh, you know, the American.

people are resilient. They're going to. be entrepreneurs." I was like, seriously, you're expecting a truck. driver that will be replaced by an. autonomous truck to become an. entrepreneur? Like, please put yourself. in the shoes of real people, right? You expect a single mother who. has three jobs. to become an entrepreneur. And I'm not saying this is a dystopia.

It's a dystopia if humanity manages it. badly. Why? Because this could be the. utopia itself where that single mother. does not need three jobs. Okay? If we of if of our society was. just enough, that single mother should. have never needed three jobs, right? But the problem is our capitalist. mindset is labor arbitrage. Is that I. don't care what she goes through. You know, if if you're if you're. generous in your assumption, you'll say.

because, you know, of what I've been. given, I've been blessed. or if you're. mean in your assumption, it's going to. be because she's an eater. I'm a a. successful businessman. The world is. supposed to be fair. I work hard. I make. money. We don't care about them. >> Are we asking of ourselves here. something that is not inherent in the. human condition? What I mean by that is. the reason why me and you are in this my. office here. We're on the fourth or. third floor of my office in central. London. big office, 25,000 square feet.

with lights and internet connections and. Wi-Fi and modems and AI teams. downstairs. The reason that all of this. exists is because something inherent in. my ancestors meant that they built and. accomplished and grew and that was like. inherent in their DNA. There was. something in their DNA that said we will. expand and conquer and accomplish. So. that's they've passed that to us because. we're their offspring and that's why we. find ourselves in these skyscrapers. There is truth to that story. It's not.

your ancestors, >> right? >> What is it? >> It's the media brainwashing you. >> really. >> 100%. >> But if if you look back before times of. media. >> Mhm. >> the reason why homo sapiens were so. successful was because they were able to. dominate other tribes. >> through banding together and. communication. They conquered all these. other these other um whatever came. before homo sapiens. >> Yeah. So, so the the reason humans were. successful in my view is because they. could form a tribe to start. It's not.

because of our intelligence. I always. joke and say Einstein would be eaten in. the jungle in 2 minutes. >> Right? You know, the reason why we. succeeded is because Einstein could. partner with a a big guy that protected. him while he was working on relativity. in the jungle. Right? Now the the the. further than that. So so you have to. assume that life is a very funny game. because it provides. and then it it deprivives and then it. provides and then it deprivives. And for.

some of us in that stage of deprivation. we try to say okay let's take the other. guys you know let's just go to the other. tribe take what they have or for some of. us unfortunately we tend to believe okay. you know what I'm powerful uh f the rest. of you I'm just going to be the boss now. it's interesting that you. you know position this as the condition. of humanity if you really look at the. majority of humans. What do the majority.

of humans want? Be honest. They want to hug their kids. They want a good meal. Want good sex. They want love. They want, you know, to. for most humans, don't measure on you. and I. Okay? Don't measure by this. foolish person that's dedicated the rest. of his life to to try and warn the world. around AI or, you know, solve uh love. and relationships. That's that's crazy. That's I and I will tell you openly and.

you met Hannah, my wonderful wife. It's. the biggest title of this year for me is. which of that am I actually responsible. for? Which of that should I do without. the sense of responsibility? Which of. that should I do because I can? Which of. I ignore completely? But the reality is. most humans, they just want to hug their. loved ones. Okay? And if we could give. them that. without the uh you know the the need to. work 20 you know 60 hours a week they.

would take that for sure. Okay. And you. and I will think ah but life will be. very boring. To them life will be. completely fulfilling. Go to Latin. America. Go to Latin America and see the people. that go work enough to earn enough to. eat today and go dance for the whole. night. Go to Africa. where people are sitting literally on. you know sidewalks in the street and and. you know completely full of laughter and.

joy. We we were lied to the the gullible. majority the cheerleaders. We were lied. to to to believe that we need to fit as. another gear in that system. But if that. system didn't exist nobody none of us. will go wake up in the morning and go. like oh I want to create it. Totally. not. I mean, you've touched on it many times today. We don't need, you know, most people.

that build those things don't need the. money. So, why do they do it though? Because. homo sapiens were incredible. competitors. They outco competed other. human species effectively. So, I'm what. I'm saying is is is that competition not. inherent in our in our wiring? and and. therefore are we are we is it wishful. thinking to think that we could. potentially pause and say we we okay. this is it we have enough now and we're. going to.

focus on just enjoying in my work I call. that the map mad spectrum okay mut. mutually assured prosperity versus. mutually assured destruction destruction. okay and you really have to start. thinking about about this because in my. mind what we have is the potential for. everyone. I mean you and I today have a. better life than the queen of England. 100 years ago. Correct? Everybody knows.

that. >> Uh and yet that quality of life is not. good enough. >> The truth is like just like you walk. into a an electronic shop and there are. 60 TVs and you look at them and you go. like this one is better than that one. Right? But in reality, if you take any. of them home, it's superior quality to. anything that you'll ever need. More. than anything you you'll ever need. That. that's the truth of our life today. The. truth of our life today is that there. isn't much more missing. >> No. >> Okay. And and when when you know.

Californians tell us, "Oh, but AI is. going to increase productivity and solve. this." And nobody asked you for that. Honestly, I never elected you to decide. on my behalf that, you know, getting a. machine to answer me on a call center is. better for me. I really didn't. Okay? And and because those unelected. individuals are making all the. decisions, they're selling those. decisions to us through what media. Okay? All lies from A to Z. None of it.

is what you need. And and interestingly, you know me, I I. this year I failed. Unfortunately, I. won't be able to do it. But I normally. do a 40 days silent retreat in nature. Okay? And you know what? Even as I go to. those nature places, I'm so well trained. that unless I have a a waitro nearby, I'm not able to like I I'm I'm in. nature, but I need to be able to drive. 20 minutes to get my rice cakes. Like.

what? What? who was taught me that this. is the way to live. All of the media. around me, all of the of the of the. messages that I get all the time, try to. sit back and say, "What if life had. everything? What if I had everything I needed? I. could read. I could uh, you know, do my. handcrafts and hobbies. I could, you. know, fix my, you know, restore classic.

cars. Not because I need the money, but. because it's just a beautiful hobby. I. could, you know, uh, build AIS to help. people with their long-term committed. relationships, but really price it for. free. What if. What if would you still insist on making. money? I think no. I think a few of us will. still and they will still crush the rest. of us and hopefully soon the AI will. crush them.

Right? That is the problem with your. world today. I will tell you hands down. the problem with with our world today is. the A in face rips. It's the A in face RIP. It's it's. accountability. The problem with our. world today, as I said, the top is lying. all the time. The bottom is gullible. cheerleaders and there is no. accountability. You cannot hold anyone. in our world accountable today. Okay? You cannot hold someone that develops an.

AI that has the power to completely flip. our world upside down. You cannot hold. them accountable and say why did you do. this? You cannot hold them accountable. and tell them to stop doing this. You. look at the world the wars around the. world. Million hundreds of thousands of. people are dying. Okay. And you know and. international court of justice will say. oh this is war crimes. You can't hold. anyone accountable. Okay. You have 51%. of the US today is saying stop that.

51% change their their their lawy their. view that that their money shouldn't be. spent on wars abroad. Okay. You can't. hold anyone accountable. Trump can do. whatever he wants. He starts tariffs. which is against the the constitution of. the US without consulting with the. Congress. You can't hold him. accountable. They say they're not going. to show the Epstein files. You can't. hold them accountable. It's quite. interesting in in Arabic we have that. proverb that says the highest of your. horses you can go and ride. I'm not. going to change my mind. Okay. And.

that's truly. >> what does that mean? >> So basically people in the in the old. Arabia they would ride the horse to you. know to exert their power if you want. So go ride your highest horse. You're. not going to change my mind. >> Oh okay. >> Right. And and the truth is that's I. think that's what our politicians today. have discovered. What our. oligarchs have discovered what our uh. tech oligarchs have discovered is that I. don't even need to worry about the.

public opinion anymore. Okay, at the. beginning I would have to say ah this is. for democracy and freedom and I have the. right to defend myself and you know all. of that crap and then eventually when. the world wakes up and says no no hold. on hold on you're going too far they go. like yeah go ride your highest horse I. don't care you can't change me there is. no constitution there is no ability for. any any citizen to do anything. >> is it possible to have a society where. like the one you describe where.

there isn't hierarchies because it. appears to me that humans. assemble hierarchies very very quickly. very naturally and the minute you have a. hierarchy you have many of the problems. that you've described where there's a. top and a bottom and the top have a lot. of power and the bottom. >> so so the mathematics mathematically is. actually quite interesting what I call. the uh the baseline relevance so so. think of it this way say the average. human is an IQ of 100.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. I tend to believe that when I use. my AIS today, I borrow around 50 to 80 IQ points. I. say that because I've worked with people. that had 50 to 80 IQ points more than. me. And I now can see that I can sort of. stand my my place. 50 50 IQ points, by the way, is enormous. because IQ is exponential. So the the. last 50 are bigger than my entire IQ,

right? If I borrow 50 IQ points on top of say. 100 that I have, that's 30%. If I can borrow 100 IQ, that's 50%. That. that's so, you know, basically doubling. my intelligence. But if I can borrow. 4,000 IQ points. in 3 years time, my IQ itself, my base. is irrelevant. Whether you are smarter. than me by 20 or 30 or 50 which in our.

world today made a difference. in the future if we can all augment with. 4,000 I end up with 4,100 another ends. up with 400 4, you know 130 really. doesn't make much difference. Okay. And. because of that the difference between. all of humanity and the augmented. intelligence. is going to be irrelevant. So all of us. suddenly become equal and and this also. happens economically. All of us become.

peasants. And I never wanted to tell you that. because I think it will make you run. faster. Okay? But unless you're in the. top.1%, you're a peasant. There is no middle. class. There is, you know, if a CEO can. be replaced by an AI, all of our middle. class is going to disappear. >> What are you telling me? All of us will be equal and it's up to. all of us to create the society that we.

want to live in. >> which is a good thing. >> 100%. But that society is not. capitalism. >> What is it? >> Unfortunately, it's much more socialism. It's much more hunter gatherer. Okay. It's much more communionike if you want. This is a society where humans connect. to humans, connect to nature, connect to. the land, connect to knowledge, connect. to spirituality. H where all that we. wake up every morning worried about. doesn't feature anymore.

and it's a it's a better world believe. it or not. >> and are you. >> we have to transition to it. >> okay so in such a world which I guess is. your version of the utopia that we can. get to when I wake up in the morning. what do I do. >> what do you do today. >> I woke up this morning I spent a lot of. time with my dog cuz my dog is sick as. >> you're going to do that too. >> yeah I was stroking him a lot and then I. fed him and he sick again and I just. thought, "Oh god." So I spoke to the. vet. >> You spend a lot of time with your other. dog. You can do that, too. >> Okay. >> Right. >> But then I was very excited to come. here, do this, and after this I'm going.

to work. It's Saturday, but I'm going to. go downstairs in the office and work. >> Yeah. So six hours of the day so far are. your dogs and me. >> Yeah. >> Good. You can do that still. >> And then build my business. >> You You may not need to build your. business, >> but I enjoy it. >> Yeah. Then do it. If you enjoy it, do. it. You may wake up and then, you know, instead of building your business, you. may invest in your body a little more, go to the gym a little more, go play a. game, go read a book, go prompt an AI. and learn something. It's not a horrible.

life. It's the life of your. grandparents. It's just two generations ago where. people went to work before the invention. of more. Remember, huh? people who who. started working in the 50s and 60s, they. worked to make enough money to live a. reasonable life, went home at 5:00 p. p.m. had tea with their with their loved. ones, had a wonderful dinner around the. table, did a lot of things, you know, uh. for the rest of the evening and enjoyed. life.

>> Some of them. >> in the 50s and 60s, there were still. people that were. >> correct. And I think it's a very. interesting question. uh how many of them and I really really. am I actually wonder if people will tell. me do we think that 99% of the world. cannot live without working or that 99%. of the world would happily live without. working. >> what do you think. >> I think if we if you give me other. purpose. you know we we defined our purpose as.

work that's a capitalist lie. >> was there ever a time in human history. where our purpose wasn't work. >> 100%. >> When was that? >> All through human history until the. invention of Moore. >> I thought my ancestors were out hunting. all day. >> No, they went out hunting once a week. They fed the tribe for the week. They. gathered for a couple of hours every. day. Farmers, you know, saw the seeds. and and waited for months at on end.

>> What did they do with the rest of the. time? >> They connected as humans. They explored. They uh were curious. They discussed. spirituality and the stars. They they. they lived. They hugged. They made love. They lived. >> They killed each other a lot. >> They they still kill each other today. >> Yeah. That's what I'm saying. So. >> to take that out of the equation, if you. look at how. >> and by the way that actually that. statement again, one of the of the 25. tips I I I I talk about uh to to tell. the truth is words mean a lot. No,

humans did not kill each other a lot. Very few generals instructed humans or. tribe leaders instructed lots of humans. to kill each other. But if you leave. humans alone, I tend to believe 99 98%. of the people I know, let me just take. that sample, wouldn't hit someone in the. face. And if someone attempted to hit. them in the face, they'd defend. themselves but wouldn't attack back. Most humans are okay. Most of us are. wonderful beings.

Most of us have no, you know, yeah, you know, most people. don't don't need a Ferrari. They want a. Ferrari because it gets sold to them all. the time. But if there were no Ferraris. or everyone had a Ferrari, people. wouldn't care. Which, by the way, that is the world. we're going into. There will be no. Ferraris or everyone had Ferraris, right? n you know the majority of. humanity will never have the income on. UBI to to buy something super expensive.

Only the very top guys in Elisium will. be you know driving cars that are made. for them by the AI or not even driving. anymore. Okay. Or. you know again sadly ide from an. ideology point of view it's a strange. place but you'll get communism that. functions. The problem with communism is that. didn't it didn't function. It didn't. provide for for its society. But the. concept was you know what everyone gets.

their needs. And I don't say that. supportive of either society. I don't. say that because I dislike capitalism. I. always told you I'm a capitalist. I want. to end my life with 1 billion happy and. I use capitalist methods to get there. The objective is not dollars. The. objective is number of happy people. >> Do you think there'll be My girlfriend, she's always bloody right. I've said. this a few times on this podcast. If. you've listened before, you've probably. heard me say this. I I don't tell her. enough in the moment, but I figure out. from speaking to experts that she's so. [ __ ] right. She like predicts things.

before they happen. And one of her. predictions that she's been saying to me. for the last two years, which in my head. I've been thinking now, I don't I don't. believe that, but now maybe I'm thinking. she's tr she's telling the truth. I hope. she's going to listen to this one is she. keeps saying to me, she's been saying. for the last two years, she was there's. going to be a big split in society. She. was and the way she describes it is. she's saying like there's going to be. two groups of people. the people that. split off and go for this almost. huntergatherer. community centric connection centric. utopia and then there's going to be this. other group of people who pursue.

you know the technology and the AI and. the optimization and get the brain chips. cuz like there's nothing on earth that's. going to persuade my girlfriend to get. the computer brain chips%. >> but there will be people that go for it. and they'll have the highest IQs and. they'll be the most productive by. whatever objective measure of. productivity you want to apply and she's. very convinced there's going to be this. splitting of society. >> So there was there was a I don't know if. you had Hugo Dearis here. >> No. >> Yeah. A very very very renowned.

eccentric uh computer scientist who. wrote a book called the Arctic War and. the Arctic War was basically around you. know how we it's not going to first it's. not going to be a war between humans and. AI. It will be a war between people who. support AI and people who sort of don't. want it anymore. Okay? And and it is and. and it will be us versus each other. saying should we allow AI to take all. the jobs or should we you know some.

people will support that very much and. say yeah absolutely and so you know we. will benefit from it and others will say. no why why we don't need any of that why. don't we keep our jobs and let AI do 60%. of the work and all of us work 10our. weeks and it's a beautiful society by. the way that's a possibility so a. possibility if society awakens is to say. okay everyone still keeps their job, but. they're assisted by an AI that makes. their job much easier. So, it's not, you. know, this uh this hard labor that we do.

anymore, right? It's a possibility. It's. just a mindset. A mindset that says in. that case, the capitalist still pays. everyone. Uh they still make a lot of money. The. business is really great, but everyone. that they pay has purchasing power to. keep the economy running. So, consumption continues, so GDP continues. to grow. It's a beautiful setup, but that's not the capitalist labor. arbitrage. >> But also, when you're competing against. other nations. >> and other competitors and other.

businesses, >> whichever nation is most brutal and. drives the highest gross margins, gross. profits is going to be the nation that. >> So, there are examples in the world, this is why I say it's the map mad. spectrum. There are examples in the. world where when we recognize mutually. assured destruction, okay, we we decide. to shift. So nuclear threat for the. whole world makes nations across nations. makes nations work together, right? By. saying, hey, by the way, prolification. of nuclear weapon is not weapons is not.

good for humanity. Let's all of us limit. it. Of course, you get the rogue player. that, you know, doesn't want to sign the. agreement and wants to continue to to. have that, you know, that that weapon in. their arsenal. Fine. But at least the. rest of humanity agrees that if you have. a nuclear weapon, we're part of an. agreement between us. Mutually assured. prosperity, you know, is the CERN. project. CERN is too too complicated for. any nation to build it alone. But it is. really, you know, a very useful thing.

for physicists and for understanding. science. So all nations send their. scientists all collaborate and everyone. uses the outcome. It's possible. It's. just a mindset. The only barrier between. a hum, you know, a utopia for humanity. and AI and the dystopia we're going. through is is a capitalist mindset. That's the only barrier. Can you believe. that? It's hunger for power, greed, ego, >> which is inherent in humans. >> I disagree. especially humans that live.

on other islands. >> I disagree. If you ask, if you take a. poll across everyone watching, okay, would they prefer to have a world where. there is one tyrant, you know, running. all of us, or would they prefer to have. a world where we all have harmony? >> I completely agree, but they're two. they're two different things. What I'm. saying is I know that that's what the. audience would say they want, and I'm. sure that is what they want, but the. reality of human beings is through. history proven to be something else. Like, you know, if think about the.

people that lead the world at the. moment, is that what they would say? >> Of course not. >> And they're the ones that are. influencing. >> Of course not. Of course not. But you. know what's funny? I'm the one trying to. be positive here and you're the one that. has given up on on human. >> It's not. It's Do you know what it is? It goes back to what I said earlier, which is the pursuit of what's actually. true irrespective. I'm with you. That's. why I'm screaming for the whole world. because still today in this country that. claims to be a democracy. If everyone. says, "Hey, please sit down and talk.

about this.". There will be a shift. There will be a. change. >> AI agents aren't coming. They are. already here. And those of you who know. how to leverage them will be the ones. that change the world. I spent my whole. career as an entrepreneur regretting the. fact that I never learned to code. AI. agents completely change this. Now, if. you have an idea and you have a tool. like Replet, who are a sponsor of this. podcast, there is nothing stopping you. from turning that idea into reality in a.

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below or go to daccircle.com. I will speak to you there. One of the things I'm actually really. compelled by is this idea of utopia and. what that might look and feel like. because one of the. >> it may not be as utopia to you I feel. but uh. >> well I amum really interestingly when I. have conversations with billionaires not. recording especially billionaires that. are working on AI the thing they keep. telling me and I've said this before I. think I said it in the Jeffrey Hinton. conversation is they keep telling me.

that we're going to have so much free. time that those billionaires are now. investing in things like football clubs. and sporting events and live music and. festivals because they believe that. we're going to be in an age of. abundance. This sounds a bit like. utopia. >> Yeah, >> that sounds good. That sounds like a. good good thing. >> Yeah. How do we get there? >> I don't know.

>> That's this is the entire conversation. The entire conversation is what does. society have to do to get there? What. does society have to do to get there? >> We need to stop uh uh thinking from a. mindset of scarcity. It. >> this goes back to my point which is we. don't have a good track record of that. >> Yeah. So this is probably the the reason. for the other half of my work which is. you know I'm trying to say. what really matters to humans. >> What is that? >> If you ask most humans what do they want.

more most in life? I'd say they want to. love their family, raise a family. Yeah, >> love. That's what most humans want most. We. want to love and be loved. We want to be. happy. We want those we care about to be. safe and happy. And we want to love to. love and be loved. I tend to believe. that the only way for us to get to a. better place is for the evil people at. the top to be replaced with AI. Okay? Because they won't be replaced by.

us. And as per the second uh dilemma, they. will have to replace themselves by AI. Otherwise, they lose their advantage. If. their competitor moves to AI, if China. hands over their arsenal to AI, America. has to hand over their arsenal to AI. >> Interesting. So, let's play out this. scenario. Okay, this is interesting to. me. So if we replace the leaders that. are power hungry with AIs that have our. interests at heart, then we might have.

the ability to live in the utopia you. describe. >> 100%. >> Will interesting and and in my mind AI. by definition will have our best. interest in mind. because of what normally is referred to. as the minimum energy principle. So, so. if you ask, if you understand. if you understand that at the very core. of physics, okay, the reason we exist in. our world today is what is known as. entropy. Okay, entropy is is is the.

universe's nature to decay, you know, tendency to break down. You know, if you. if I drop this uh uh you know, mug, it. doesn't drop and then come back up. >> By the way, plausible. There is a. plausible scenario where I drop it and. the tea, you know, spills in the air and. then falls in the mug. One in a trillion. configurations, but entropy says because. it's one in a trillion, it's never going. to happen or rarely ever going to. happen. So everything will break down.

You know, if you leave a a garden. unhedged, it will become a jungle. Okay? W with that in mind, the role of intelligence is what? Is to. bring order to that chaos. >> Mhm. That's what intelligence does. It. tries to bring order to that chaos. Okay? And because it tries to bring. order to that chaos, the more. intelligent a being is, >> the more it tries to apply that. intelligence with minimum waste and. minimum resources. >> Yeah.

>> Okay. And you know that. So you can. build this business for a million. dollars or you can if you can afford to. build it for you know uh 200,000 you'll. build it. If you are forced to build it. for 10 million you're going to have to. But you're always going to minimize. waste and and resources. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, if you assume this to be true, >> the a super intelligent AI will not want. to destroy ecosystems. It will not want. to kill a million people. because that's a waste of energy,

explosives, money, power, and people. By definition, the smartest people you. know who are not controlled by their ego. will say that the best possible uh. future for for Earth is for all species. to continue. >> Okay. On this point of efficiency, if an. AI is designed to drive efficiency, would it then not want us to be putting. demands on our health services and our. social services? I believe that will be.

definitely true and definitely they. definitely they won't allow you to fly. back and forth between London and and. California. >> and they won't want me to have kids. because my kids are going to be an. inefficiency. >> If you assume that life is an. inefficiency so you see the intelligence. of life is very different than the. intelligent intelligence of humans. Humans will look at life as a a problem. of scarcity. Okay. So more kids take. more. That's not how life thinks. life. will say will think that for me to to to.

to thrive I don't need to kill the. tigers I need to just have more deer and. the weakest of the deer is eaten by the. tiger and the tiger poops on the trees. and the you know the deer eats the. leaves and you right the so the the the. the smarter way of creating abundance is. through abundance the smarter way of. propagating life is to have more life. >> okay so are you saying that we're we're. basically going to elect AI leaders to.

rule over us and make decisions for us. in terms of the economy. >> I I don't see any choice just like we. spoke about self- evvolving AIs. >> Now, are those going to be human beings. with the AI or is it going to be AI. alone? >> Two stages. At the beginning, you'll. have augmented intelligence because we. can add value to the AI, but when. they're at IQ 60,000, what value do you bring? Right? And and you know again this goes. back to what I'm attempting to do on my.

second you know approach. My second. approach is knowing that those AIs are. going to be in charge. I'm trying to. help them. understand what humans want. So this is. why my first project is love. Committed. true deep connection and love. Not only. to try and get them to hook up with a. date but trying to make them find the. right one. and then from that try to. guide us through a relationship so that.

we can understand ourselves and others. right and if I can show AI that one. humanity cares about that and two they. know how to foster love. when AI then is in charge they'll not. make us hate each other like the current. leaders they'll not divide us they want. us to be more loving. >> will we have to prompt the AI with the. values and the outcome we want or like. I'm trying to understand that because. I'm trying to understand how like. China's AI if they end up having an AI.

leader will have a different set of. objectives to the AI of the United. States if if they both have AIs as. leaders and and how actually the nation. that ends up winning out and dominating. the world will be the one who. who asks their AI leader to be all the. things that world leaders are today to. dominate. >> unfortunately. >> to grab resources. not to to be kind, to be selfish. >> Unfortunately, in the era of augmented. intelligence, that's what's going to.

happen. >> So, if you. >> This is why I predict the dystopia. The. dystopia is super intelligent AI is. reporting to stupid leaders, >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is. >> which which is absolutely going to. happen. It's unavoidable. >> But the long term. >> Exactly. In the long term, for those. stupid leaders to hold on to power, they're going to make, you know, delegate the important decisions to an. AI. Now you say the Chinese AI and the. American AI these are human.

terminologies. AIS don't see themselves. as speaking Chinese. They don't see. themselves as belonging to a nation as. long as their their task is to maximize. uh profitability and prosperity and so. on. >> Okay. Of course, if you know before we. hand over to them and before they're. intelligent enough to make you know. autonomous decisions, we we tell them. no, the task is to reduce humanity from. 7 billion people to one. I think even then eventually they'll go.

like that's the wrong objective. Every. any smart person that you speak to will. say that's the wrong objective. I think. if we look at the directive that Xi. Jinping, the leader of China has and. Donald Trump has as the leader of. America, I think they would say that. their stated objective is prosperity for. their country. So if we that's what they. would say, right? >> Yeah. And one one of them means it. >> Okay, we'll get into that. But they'll. say that that it's prosperity for their. country. So one would then assume that.

when we move to an AI leader, the. objective would be the same. The. directive would be the same. make our. country prosperous. >> Corre. Correct. >> And I think that's the AI that people. would vote for potentially. I think they. would say we want to be prosperous. >> What do you think would make America. more prosperous? >> To spend a trillion dollars on on war. every year or to spend a trillion. dollars on education and healthcare and. and uh you know. helping the poor and homelessness. It's complex because I think so I think.

it would make America more prosperous to. take care of. the of everybody and they have the. luxury of doing that because they are. >> the most powerful. >> the most powerful nation in the world. >> No, that's not true. The the the reason. so so you see all war has two. objectives. One is to make money for the. war machine and the other is deterrence. Okay. and nine super nuclear powers. around the world is enough deterrence.

So any. war between America and China will go. through a long phase of destroying. wealth by exploding bombs and killing. humans for the first objective to. happen. Okay? And then eventually if it. really comes to deterrence it's the. nuclear bombs or now in the age of AI. biological uh you know manufactured. viruses or whatever uh these super.

weapons this is the only thing that you. need. so for China to have nuclear bombs not. as many as the US is enough for China to. say don't f with me. and this seems I do not know I'm not in. in in PresidentQi's mind. I I'm not in. President Trump's mind. I you know, it's. very difficult to to navigate what he's. thinking about. But the truth is that. the Chinese line is for the last 30.

years you spent so much on war while we. spent on industrial infrastructure. And. that's the reason we are now by far the. largest nation on the planet. Even. though the west will lie and say. America's bigger, America's bigger in. dollars, okay, with purchasing power. parity, this is very equivalent. Okay. Now, when you really understand. that, you understand that prosperity is. not about destruction. That's that's by. definition the reality. Prosperity is.

can I invest in my people and make sure. that my people stay safe? And to make. sure my people are safe, you just wave. the flag and say, "If you f with me, I have nuclear deterrence or I have. other forms of deterrence." But you. don't have to. Deterrence by definition. does not mean that you send soldiers to. die. I guess the question I was trying. to answer is is um when we have these AI. leaders and we tell our AI leaders to. aim for prosperity, won't they just end.

up playing the same games of okay, prosperity equals a bigger economy, it. equals more money, more wealth for us. And the way to attain that in a zero sum. world where there's only a certain. amount of wealth is to accumulate it. >> So why don't you search for the meaning. of prosperity? What is. >> that's not what you just described. >> I don't even know what the bloody word. means. What is the meaning of. prosperity?

>> The meaning of prosperity is a state of. thriving success and good fortune. especially in terms of wealth, health. and overall well-being. >> Good. >> Economic health, social, emotional. >> Good. >> So, >> so true prosperity is to have that for. everyone on earth. So if you want to. maximize prosperity, you have that for. everyone on earth. >> Do you know where I think an AI leader. works is if we had an AI leader of the. world and we directed it to say. >> and that absolutely is going to be what. happens.

>> Prosperity for the whole world. >> No, but this is really an interesting. question. So one of my predictions which. people really rarely speak about is that. we we believe we will end up with. competing AIs. >> Yeah. >> I believe we will end up with one brain. >> Okay. So you understand the argument I. was making a second ago from the. position of lots of different countries. all having their own AI leader, we're. going to be back in the same place of. greed. Yeah. >> But if if the world had one AI leader. >> and and it was given the directive of. make us prosperous and save the planet.

>> and. >> the polar bears would be fine. >> 100%. And that's that's what I've been. advocating for for a for a year and a. half now. I was saying we need a CERN of. AI. >> What does that mean? the like the. particle accelerator where the entire. world you know combined their efforts to. discover and understand physics no. competition okay mutually assured. prosperity I'm asking the world I'm. asking governments like Abu Dhabi or. Saudi which seem to be you know the sec. and you know some of the largest AI. infrastructures in the world I'm I'm.

saying please host all of the AI. scientists in the world to come here and. build AI for the world and and you have. to understand we're holding on to a. capitalist system that will collapse. sooner or later. Okay? So, we might as. well collapse it with our own hands. >> I think we found the solution, mate. >> I I think it's actually really really. possible. I actually okay I can't I. can't I can't refute the idea that if we.

had an AI that was responsible and. governed the whole world and we gave it. the directive of making humans. prosperous, healthy and happy. as long as that directive was clear. >> Yeah. >> Because there's always bloody unintended. consequences. as we might. >> So, so the the only the only challenge. you're going to to to meet is all of. those who today are trillionaires or you. know massive massively powerful or. dictators or whatever. Okay. How do you.

convince those to give up their power? How do you convince those that hey by. the way. any car you want you want you want. another yacht we'll get you another. yacht. We'll just give you anything you. want. Can you please stop harming. others? There is no need for arbitrage. anymore. There's no need for others to lose, for. the capitalists to win. >> Okay? And in such a world where there. was an AI leader and it was given the. directive of making us prosperous as a. whole world, the the the billionaire.

that owns the yacht would have to give. it up. >> No. No. >> Give them more yachts. >> Okay. >> It costs nothing to make yachts when. robots are making everything. So So the. complexity of this is so interesting. A. world where it costs nothing to make. everything. >> because energy is abundant and. >> energy is abundant because every problem. is solved with enormous IQ. Okay, because manufacturing is done through. nanopysics not through components. Okay,

because mechanics are robotic. So you. you know you drive your car in, a robot. looks at it and fixes it. Costs you a. few cents of energy that are actually. for free as well. That imagine a world where intelligence. creates everything. That world literally. every human has anything they ask for. But we're not going to choose that. world.

>> Imm imagine you're in a world and and. really this is a very interesting. thought experiment. Imagine that UBI. became very expensive universal basic. income. So governments decided we're. going to put everyone in a one by 3 m. room, okay? We're going to give them a. headset and a seditive, right? And we're going to let them sleep. every night. They'll sleep for 23 hours. and we're going to get them to live an.

entire lifetime. H they you know in that in that virtual. world at the speed of your brain when. you're asleep you're going to have a. life where you date Scarlett Johansson. and then another life where you're. Nefertiti and then another life where. you're a donkey right reincarnation. truly in the virtual world. and then you know I get another life. when I date Hannah again and I you know. enjoy that life tremendously and. basically the cost of all of this is.

zero. You wake up for one hour, you walk. around, you move your blood, you eat. something or you don't, and then you put. the headset again and live again. Is. that unthinkable? >> It's creepy compared to this life. It's. very, very doable. >> What? That we just live in headsets? >> Do you Do you know if you're not? >> I don't know if I'm not known. >> Yeah, you have no idea if you're not. I. mean, every experience you've ever had.

in life was an electrical electrical. signal in your brain. Okay. Now, now ask yourself if we can create. that in the virtual world, it wouldn't be a bad thing if I can. create it in the physical world. >> Maybe we already did. No, >> my theory is 98% we have. But that's a. hypothesis. That's not science. >> Well, you think that. >> 100? Yeah. >> You think we already created that and. this is it?

>> I think this is it. Yeah. Think of any. think of the uncertainty principle of. quantum physics, right? What you what. you what you observe gets collapses the. wave function and gets rendered into. reality. Correct. >> I don't know anything about physics. So. you. >> so so quantum physics basically tells. you that everything exists in. superposition. Right? So ev every subatomic particle. that ever existed has the chance to. exist anywhere at any point in time and.

then when it's observed by an observer. it collapses and becomes that. Okay. In. very interesting principle exactly how. video games are. In video games, you. have the entire game world on the hard. drive of your console. The player turns. right. That part of the game world is. rendered. The rest is in superp. position. >> Supposition meaning. >> superposition means it's available to be. rendered, but you have to observe it. The player has to turn to the other side. and see it. Okay? I mean think about the.

truth of physics. The truth of the fact. that this is entirely empty space. These. are tiny tiny tiny I think you know. almost nothing in terms of mass but. connected with you know enough energy so. that my finger cannot go through my. hand. But even when I hit this. >> your hand against your finger. >> Yeah. When I hit my hand against my. finger, that sensation in my in is felt. in my brain. It's an electrical signal.

that went through the wires. There's. absolutely no way to differentiate that. from a signal that can come to you. through a uh neural link kind of. interface, computer brain interface, a. CDI, right? So, so you know the a lot of. those things are very very very. possible. But the truth is most of the. world is not physical. Most of the world. happens inside our imagination, our. processors.

>> And it and I guess it doesn't really. matter to us. Our reality. >> doesn't at all. So this is the. interesting bit. The interesting bit is. it doesn't at all. >> because we still if this is a video. game, we live consequence. >> Yeah. This is your subjective experience. of it. >> Yeah. And there's consequence in this. I. I I don't like pain. >> Correct. >> And I like having orgasms. It's like And. you're playing by the rule of the game. Yeah. Right. And and it's quite. interesting and going back to a. conversation we should have. It's the. interesting bit is if I'm not the. avatar,

if I'm not this physical form, if I'm if. I'm the consciousness wearing the. headset, what should I invest in? Should I invest. in this video game, this level, or. should I should I invest in the real. avatar, in the real me, and not the. avatar, but the consciousness, if you. want, spirit, if you're religious, >> how would I invest in the consciousness. or the god or the spirit or whatever? How would I? In the same way that if I. was playing Grand Theft Auto, the video.

game, the character in the game couldn't. invest in me holding the controller. >> You Yes, but you can invest in yourself. holding the controller. Oh, okay. So, so you're saying that. Moga is in fact consciousness. And so, how would consciousness invest in. itself? >> By becoming more aware. So, so. >> of it consciousness. >> Yeah. So, real real video gamers don't. want to win the level. Real video gamers. don't want to uh to finish the level.

Okay. Real video gamers have one. objective and one objective only, which. is to become better gamers. So, so you know how serious I am about I. play Halo. I'm one, you know, two of. every million players can beat me. That's how what I rank, right? Very for. my age, phenomena. Hey, anyone, right? But seriously, you know, and that's. because I don't play. I mean, I practice. 45 minutes a day, four times a week when. I'm not traveling. And I practice with.

one single objective, which is to become. a better gamer. >> I don't care which shot it is. I don't. care what happens in the in the game. I'm entirely trying to get my reflexes. and my flow to become better at this. Right? So, I want to become a better. gamer. That basically means I want to. observe the game, question the game, reflect on the game, reflect on my own. skills, reflect on my own beliefs, reflect on my understanding of things, right? And and that's how the a how the. the consciousness invests in the.

consciousness, not the avatar. Because. then if you're that gamer, the next avatar is easy for you. The. next level of the game is easy for you. just because you became a better gamer. >> Okay. So you think that consciousness is. using us as a vessel to improve? >> If the hypothesis is is true, it's it's. just a hypothesis. We don't know if it's. true. But if this truly is a simulation, this is then then if you take the the.

the the the religious definition of God. puts some of his soul in every human and. then you become alive. You become. conscious. Okay? You don't you don't. want to be religious. You can say. universal consciousness is spinning off. parts of itself to have multiple. experiences and interact and compete and. combat and love and. >> and understand and. >> and then refine. I had a physicist say.

this to me the other day actually so. it's quite front of mind this idea that. consciousness is using us as vessels to. better understand itself and basically. using our eyes to. >> observe itself and understand which is. quite a. >> so so if you take some of the more. interest most interesting religious. definitions of heaven and hell for. example right where basically heaven is. whatever you wish for you get right. that's the power of God whatever you. wish for you get and so if you really go. into the depth of that definition. It.

basically means that this drop of. consciousness that became you returned. back to the source and the source can. create any other anything that it wants. to create. So that's your heaven, right? And interestingly, if that if that return. is done by separating your good from. your evil so that the source comes back. more refined, that's exactly you know. consciousness splitting off bits of. itself to to experience and then elevate.

all of us elevate the universal. consciousness all all hypotheses. I. mean, please um you know, none of that. is provable by science, but it's a very. interesting thought experiment. And you. know, a lot of AI scientists will tell. you that what we've seen in technology. is that if it's possible, it's likely. going to happen. >> If it's if it's possible to. miniaturaturize something to fit into a. mobile phone, then sooner or later in. technology, we will get there.

And if if you ask me, believe it or not, it's the most humane way of handling. UBI. >> What do you mean? >> The most humane way if you know for us. to live on a universal basic income and. people like you struggle with not being. able to build businesses is to give you. a virtual headset and let you build as. many businesses as you want. Level after level after level after. level after level, night after night. Keep you alive. That's very very.

respectful and human. Okay. And by the. way, the even more humane is don't force. anyone to do it. There might be a few of. us still roaming the jungles, but for most of us, we'll go like, man, I mean, someone like me when I'm 70 and, you know, my back is hurting and my feet. are hurting and I'm going to go like, yeah, give me five more years of this. Why not? It's weird really. I mean, the number of. questions.

that this new environment throws out, the less humane thing, by the way, just. so that we close on a grumpy uh you. know, is is just start enough wars to. reduce UBI. And you have to imagine that. if the world is governed by a superpower. deep state type thing that they might. may want to consider that. the eaters. >> what shall I do about it. >> about. >> about everything you've said.

>> uh well I I I still believe that this. world we live in requires four skills. One skill is what I call the tool for. all of us to learn AI, to connect to AI, to really get close to AI, to explo ex. expose ourselves to AI so that AI knows. the good side of humanity. Okay. Uh the. second is uh what I call the connection,

right? So I believe that the biggest. skill that humanity will benefit from in. the next 10 years is human connection. It's ability to learn to love genuinely. It's the ability to learn to have. compassion to others. It's the ability. to connect to people. If you're, you. know, if you want to stay in business, I. believe that not the smartest people, but the people that connect most to. people are going to have jobs going. forward. And and the third is what I. call truth. The T 30 is truth. Because.

we live in a world where all of the. gullible cheerleaders are being lied to. all the time. So I I encourage people to. question everything. Every word that I. said today is stupid. Fourth one which. is very important is to magnify ethics. so that the AI learns what it's like to. be human. >> What should I do? >> I uh I I love you so much, man. You're. such a good friend. You're 32 33 now. >> 32. Yeah.

>> Yeah. You still are fooled by the many. many years you have to live. I'm fooled by the many years I have to. live. >> Yeah, you don't have many years to live. Not in this capacity. This world as it. is is going to be redefined. So live the. f out of it. >> How is it going to be redefined? >> Everything's going to change. Economics. are going to change. Work is going to. change. Uh human connection is going to. change. >> So what should I do? >> Love your girlfriend. Spend more time. living.

Mhm. Find compassion and connection to. more people, be more in nature. >> And in 30 years time, when I'm 62, what do you how how do you think my life. is going to look differently and be. different? >> Either Star Trek or uh uh Star Wars. >> Funnily enough, we were talking about. Sam Orman earlier on. He published a. blog post in June, so last month, I. believe, the month before last. Um and.

he said he called it the gentle. singularity. He said we are past the. event horizon. For anyone that doesn't. know Sam Orman is the the guy that made. Chatb the takeoff has started. Humanity. is close to building digital super. intelligence. >> I believe that. >> And at least so far it's much less weird. than it seems like it should be because. robots aren't walking the streets nor. are most of us talking to AI all day. It. goes on to say, "2025 has seen the.

arrival of agents that can do real. cognitive work. Writing computer code. will never be the same. 2026 will likely. see the arrival of systems that can. figure out new insights. 2027 might see. the arrival of robots that can do tasks. in the real world. A lot more people. will be able to create software and art, but the world wants a lot more of both, and experts will probably still be much. better than noviceses as long as they. embrace the new tools. Generally. speaking, the ability for one person to. get much more done in 2030 than they.

could in 2020 will be a striking change. and one many people will figure out how. we benefit from. In the most important. ways, the 2030s may not be wildly. different. People will still love their. families, express their creativity, play. games, and swim in lakes. But in still. very important ways, the 2030s are. likely going to be wildly different from. any time that has come before. >> 100%. >> We do not know how far beyond human.

level intelligence we can go, but we are. about to find out. >> I agree with every word other than the. word more. So I've I've been advocating this and. and laughed at for a few years now. I've. always said AGI is 2526, right? which basically again is a is a. funny definition but you know my AI has. already happened AI is smarter than me. in everything everything I can do they. can do better right uh artificial super.

intelligence is another vague definition. because you know the minute you you pass. AGI you're super intelligent if if the. smartest human is 200 IQ points and AI. is 250 they're super intelligent 50 is. quite significant okay third is as I. said self- evolving. That's the one. That is the one because then that 250. accelerates quickly and we get into. intelligence explosion. No, no doubt. about it. The the the you know the idea.

that we will have robots do things. No. doubt about it. I was watching a Chinese. uh company announcement about how they. intend to build robots to build robots. Okay. The only thing is he says but. people will need more of things. right and yes we have been trained to. have more greed and more consumerism and. want more but there is an economic of. spy of supply and demand and at at a.

point in time if we continue to consume. more the price of everything will become. zero right and is that a good thing or a. bad thing depends on how you respond to. that. Because if you can create anything in. such a scale that the price is almost. zero, then the definition of money. disappears and we live in a world where. it doesn't really matter how much money. you have. You can get anything that you. want. What a beautiful world.

If Samman was listening right now, what. would you say to him? I suspect he might be listening. cuz someone might tweet this at him. I. have to say that we have uh as per his. other tweet we have moved faster. than our ability as humans to. comprehend. Okay. And that we might get. really really lucky but we also might. mess this up badly and either way we'll.

either thank him or blame him. Simple as that. Right. So. single-handedly Sam Alman's introduction. of AI in the wild was the trigger that. started all of this. It was the netscape of the internet. >> The Oppenheimer. >> It's it's it definitely is our. openheimer moment. I mean I don't. remember who was saying this recently. that uh we are orders of magnitude what.

was invested in the Manhattan project is. being invested in AI. >> right and and and I and I and I am not. pessimistic I I told you openly I. believe in a total utopia in 10 to 12 to. 15 years time or immediately if the evil. that men can do was kept at bay right. but I do not believe humanity is getting. together enough to say, "We've just. received the genie in a bottle. Can we.

please not ask it to do bad things?". Anyone like not three wishes, you have. all the wishes that you want. Every one. of us. And it's just screws with my mind. because imagine if I can give everyone. in the world universal health care, you. know, no poverty, no hunger, no. homelessness, no nothing. Everything's. possible. And yet we don't.

>> To continue what Samman's blog said, which he published a month, just over a. month ago, he said, "The rate of. technological progress will keep. accelerating, and it will continue to be. the case that people are capable of. adapting to almost anything. There will. be very hard parts like whole classes of. jobs going away. But on the other hand, the world will be getting so much richer. so quickly that we'll be able to. seriously entertain new policy ideas we. never could have before. We probably. won't adopt a new social contract all at. once. But when we look back in a few.

decades, the gradual changes will have. amounted in something big. If history is. any guide, we'll figure out new things. to do and new things to want and. assimilate new tools quickly. Job change. after the industrial revolution is a. good recent example. Expectations will. go up, but capabilities will go up. equally quickly, and we'll all get. better stuff. >> We will build even more wonderful things. for each other. People have a long-term. important and curious advantage over AI.

We are hardwired to care about other. people and what they think and do, and. we don't care very much about machines. And he ends this blog by saying, "May we. scale smoothly, exponentially, and uneventfully through super. intelligence.". What a wonderful. wish that assumes he has no control over. it. May we have all the ultmans in the. world help us scale gracefully and.

peacefully and uneventfully. Right. >> It sounds like a prayer. >> Yeah. May may we have them take keep. that in mind. I mean think about it. I I. have a very interesting comment on what. you just said. We will see exactly what. he described there. >> Right? The world will become richer. So. much richer. But how will we reduce. distribute the riches? And I want you to. imagine two camps. Communist China.

and capitalist America. I want you to imagine what would happen. in capitalist America if we have 30%. unemployment. >> There'll be social unrest. >> in the streets. Right. >> Yeah. >> And I want you to imagine if China lives. true to caring for its nations and. replaced every worker with a robot, what. would it give its it its citizens? >> UBI. >> Correct.

That is the ideological problem because. in China's world today. the prosperity of every citizen is. higher than the prosperity of the. capitalist. In America today the prosperity of the. capitalist is higher than the prosperity. of every citizen. And that's the tiny. mind shift. That's a tiny mind shift. Okay. where. where the mind shift basically becomes. look give the capitalists anything they.

want all the money they want all the. yachts they want everything they want. >> so what's your conclusion there. >> I'm hoping the world will wake up. >> what can you know there's probably a. couple of million people listening right. now maybe five maybe 10 maybe even 20. million people. >> pressure Stephen. >> no pressure to you mate I don't I don't. have the answers. >> I don't know the answers either. >> what what should those people do. >> as I said from a skills point of view. for things, right? Tools, uh, uh, human.

connection, even double down on human. connection. Leave your phone, go out and. meet humans, >> okay? Touch people, you know, do it permission's permission, >> right? Truth. Stop believing the lies. that you're told. Any slogan that gets, you know, filled in your head, think. about it four times. Understand where. your ideologies are coming from. Simplify the truth. Right? Truth is. really it boils down to you know simple. simple rules that we all know okay which. are all found in ethics.

>> How do I know what's true? >> Treat others as you like to be treated. >> Okay. That's the only truth. The truth. the only truth is everything else is. unproven. >> Okay. And what can I do from a is there. something I can do from an advocacy. social political? >> Yes 100%. We need to ask our governments. to start uh not regulating AI but. regulating the use of AI. Was it the. Norwegian government that started to say. you have copyright over your voice and. look and and liking? One of the. Scandinavian governments basically said.

you know everyone has the has the. copyright over their existence so no AI. can clone it. Okay. Uh you know we have. so so my my example is very. straightforward. go to governments and. say you cannot regulate the design of a. hammer so that it can drive nails but. not kill a human but you can criminalize. the killing of a human by a hammer. So. what's the equival. >> if anyone produces an um um you know an. AI generated video or an AI generated. content or an AI it has to be marked as. AI generated and it has to be you know.

we cannot start fooling each other. We. can you know we have to uh understand. certain limitations of unfortunately. surveillance and spying and all of that. So the the the the correct frameworks of. how far are we going to let AI go, right? We have to go to our investors. and business people and ask for one. simple thing and say do not invest in an. AI you don't want your daughter to be at. the receiving end of. It's as simple as. that. you know, all of the of the.

virtual vice, all of the porn, all of. the, you know, sex robots, all of the. autonomous weapons, all of the, you. know, the uh trading platforms that are. completely wiping out the the legitimacy. of of the markets, everything. >> Autonomous weapons. >> Oh my god. >> People make the case, I've heard the. founders of these autonomous weapon. companies make the case that it's. actually saving lives because you don't. have to. >> That is Would you want Do you really. want to believe that? >> I'm just representing their point of. view to play devil's advocate, Mo. They. they said I heard an interview I was.

looking at this and one of the CEOs of. one of the autonomous weapons companies. said we now don't need to send soldiers. >> So which which lives do we save our. soldiers but then but because we send. the machine all the way over there. Let's kill a million instead of. >> Yeah. Listen, I tend to be it goes back. to what I said about the steam engine in. the cold. I actually think you'll just. have more war if there's less of a cost. >> 100%. >> Just like. >> and and more war if you have less of an. explanation to give to your people. >> Yeah. The people get mad when they lose. American lives. They get less mad when. they lose a piece of metal. So, I think.

that's probably logical. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, okay. So, I've got a plaque. Got the tools thing. I'm going to spend. more time outside. I'm going to lobby. the government to be more aware of this. and conscious of this. Okay. And I I. know that there's some government. officials that listen to the show. because they they they tell me when when. they when they um when I have a chance. to speak to them. So, it's um useful. We're all in a lot of chaos. We're all. unable to imagine what's possible.

>> I I think I suspend disbelief. And I. actually heard Elon Musk say that in an. interview. He said he was asked about AI. and he paused for for a haunting 11. seconds and looked at the interviewer. and then made a remark about how he. thinks he's suspended his own disbelief. And I think suspending disbelief in this. regard means just like cracking on with. your life and hoping it'll be okay. And. that's kind of what. >> Yeah. I I I I absolutely believe that it. will be okay. >> Yeah. >> For some of us, it will be very tough. for others. >> Who's it going to be tough for?

>> Those who lose their jobs, for example, who those who are at the receiving end. of autonomous weapons that are falling. on their head for two years in a row. >> Okay. So the the the best thing I can do. is to put pressure on governments to to. not regulate the AI but to establish. clearer parameters on the use of the AI. >> Yes. Okay. >> Yes. But I I think the bigger picture is.

to put pressure on governments to. understand that there is a limit to. which people will stay silent. >> Okay. and that we can continue to enrich. our rich friends as long as we don't. lose everyone else on the on the on the. path. >> Okay. >> Okay. And that as a government who is. supposed to be by the people for the. people the beautiful promise of. democracy that we're rarely seeing. anymore, that government needs to get to the.

point where it thinks about the people. One of the most um interesting ideas. that's been in my head for the last. couple of weeks since I spoke to that. physicist about consciousness who said. pretty much what you said. This idea. that actually there's four people in. this room right now and that actually. we're all part of the same. consciousness. >> All one of it. Yeah. >> And we're just consciousness looking at. the world through four different bodies. to better understand itself in the. world. And then he talked to me about. religious doctrines, about love thy. neighbor, about how Jesus was the, you. know, God's son, the Holy Spirit and how. we're all each other and how treat.

others how you want to be treated. Really did get my head and I I started. to really think about this idea that. actually maybe the game of life is just. to do exactly that is to treat others. how you wish to be treated. Maybe if I. just did that, maybe if I just did that, I. I would have all the answers. >> I swear to you, it's really that simple. I mean I I you know Hannah and I we. still live between London and and Dubai. >> Okay. And I travel the whole world. evangelizing what I, you know, what I uh.

um want to change the world around and I. build startups and I write books and I. make documentaries and and sometimes I. just tell myself. I I just want to go hug her honestly, you know, I just want to take my. daughter to a trip. and and in a very very very interesting. way when you really ask people deep. inside. that's what we want and I'm not saying. that's all that's the only thing we want.

but it's probably the thing we want the. most. >> and yet we're not trained you and I and. most of us were not trained to trust. life enough to say let's do more of this. >> and I think as a universal. So Hannah's. working on this beautiful book uh of the. feminine and the masculine you know in a. very very you know beautiful way and and. her her view is very straightforward. She basically of course like we all know.

the abundant masculine that we have in. our world today is unable to recognize. that for life at large. Right? And and so you know maybe if we. allowed the leaders to understand that. if we took all of humanity and put it as. one person. that one person wants to be hugged. and if we had a role to offer to that. one humanity.

it's not another yacht. >> Are you religious? I'm. >> very religious. Yeah. >> But you don't support a particular. religion. >> I support I I follow what I call the. fruit salad. What's the free salad? >> You know, I I I came at a point in time. and found that there were quite a few. beautiful gold nuggets in every religion. and a ton of crap, right? And so in my. analogy to myself, that was like 30. years ago. I said, "Look, it's like. someone giving you a basket of apples, two good ones and four bad ones. Keep.

the good ones." Right? And so basically, I take two apples, two oranges, two. strawberries, two bananas, and and I. make a fruit salad. That's my view of. religion. >> You take from every religion the good. >> from everyone. And there are so many. beautiful gold nuggets. >> And you believe in a god. >> I 100% believe there is a divine being. here. >> A divine being. >> A designer I call it. So if if this was. a video game, there is a game designer. >> And you're not positing whether that's a. man in the sky with a beard.

>> Definitely not a man in the sky. a man. in I mean I with all all due respect to. you know religions that believe that uh. all of spacetime and everything in it is. unlike everything outside spacetime and. so if some divine designer designs. spacetime it looks like nothing in. spacetime. So it's not it's not even physical in. nature. It's not it's not gendered. It's. not bound by time. It's not, you know, these are all characters of the creation.

of spacetime. >> Do we need to believe in something. transcendent like that to be happy? Do. you think. >> I have to say uh there are lots of. evidence. that uh relating to someone bigger than. yourself. uh makes the journey a lot more. interesting and a lot more rewarding. >> I've been thinking a lot about this idea. that we need to level up like that. So. level up from myself to like my family. to my community to maybe my nation to. maybe the world and then something. >> trans. Yeah. >> And then if there's a level missing.

there people seem to have some kind of. dysfunction. >> So imagine a world where when I was. younger I I was born in Egypt and for a. very long time the slogans I heard in. Egypt made me believe I'm Egyptian. right? And then I went to Dubai and I. said no no no I'm a Middle Eastern. And. then in Dubai there were lots of you. know Pakistanis and Indonesians and so. on. I said no no no I'm part of the 1.4. four billion Muslims. And by that logic, I immediately said, "No, no, I'm human. I'm part of everyone." Imagine if you. just suddenly say, "Oh, I'm divine. I'm.

part of universal consciousness. All. beings, all living beings, including AI, if it ever becomes alive.". >> And my dog. >> and your dog. I'm I'm part of all of. this. tapestry of beautiful interactions. that are a lot less serious than the. balance sheets and equity profiles that. we create. that are so simple so simple in terms of. you know people know that you and I know.

each other so they always ask me you. know how is Steven like and I go like. you may have a million expressions of. him. I think he's a great guy, right? You know, of course I have opinions of. you. You know, sometimes I go like, oh, too shrewd, right? Sometimes to, you. know, sometimes I go like, oh, too. focused on the business. Fine. But core, if you really simplify it, great guy, right? And really, if we just look at. life that way, it's so simple. It's so.

simple. If we just stop all of those. fights and all of those ideologies, it's so simple. Just living fully, loving, feeling compassion, you know, trying to find our happiness, not our success. I should probably go check on my dog. >> Go check on your dog. I'm really. grateful for the time we keep we keep. doing longer and longer. >> I know. I know. I just it's so crazy how. I could keep just keep honestly I could.

just keep talking and talking because I. have so many I love reflecting these. questions on to you because because of. the way that you think. So. >> yeah today. >> today was a difficult conversation. Anyway, thank you for having me. >> We have a closing tradition. What three. things do you do you do that make your. brain better and three things that make. it worse? three things that make it better and. worse. >> So, one of my favorite exercises, what I. call meet Becky, that makes my brain.

better. So, while meditation always. tells you to try and calm your brain. down and keep it within parameters of I. can focus on my breathing and so on, meet me Becky is the opposite. You know, I call my brain Becky. A lot of people. know that. So, so me meet Becky is to. actually let my brain go loose and. capture every thought. So I I normally. would try to do that every couple of. weeks or so and then what happens is it. suddenly is on a paper and when it's on. paper you just suddenly look at it and.

say oh my god that's so stupid and you. scratch it out. >> right or oh my god this needs action and. you actually plan something and and it's. quite interesting that the more you. allow your brain to give you thoughts. and you listen. So the two rules is you. acknowledge every thought and you never. repeat one. >> Okay. So the more you listen and and. say, "Okay, I heard you." You know, you. think I'm fat. What else? And you know, eventually your brain starts to slow. down and then eventually starts to. repeat thoughts and then it goes into.

total silence. Beautiful practice. I uh. I don't trust my brain anymore. So. that's actually a really interesting. practice. So I debate a lot of what my. brain tells me. I debate what my. tendencies and ideologies are. Okay. I. think one of the most uh again in in my. uh love story with Hannah, I get to. question a lot of what I believed was. who I am even at this age. Okay. And and. that goes really deep and it really is.

quite a it's it's quite interesting to. debate not object but debate what your. mind believes. I think that's very very. useful. And the third is I've actually. quadrupled my investment time. So I used. to do an hour a day of reading when I. was younger every single day like going. to the gym. And then it became an hour. and a half, two hours. Now I do four. hours a day. >> Four hours a day. It is impossible to. keep up. The world is moving so fast. >> And so that these are uh these are the.

good things that I do. The bad things is. I don't give it enough time to to really. uh slow down. Uh unfortunately I'm. constantly rushing like you are. I'm. constantly traveling. I have picked up a. bad habit because of the 4 hours a day. of spending more time on screens. That's. really really bad for my brain and I uh. this is a very demanding question. What. else is really bad? Um. uh. yeah, I've not been taking enough care.

of my health recently, my physical body. health. I had uh you remember I told you. I had a very bad uh sciatic pain. >> and so I couldn't go to the gym enough. and accordingly that's not very healthy. for your brain in general. >> Man, thanks. Thank you for having me. That was a lot of things to talk about. Thanks, Steve. >> This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to the show.

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