Dr K: We Are Producing Millions Of Lonely, Addicted, Purposeless Men & Women!

This is the whole problem that everyone. makes. Anytime we have a problem, the. first thing that we do is we try to jump. to a solution. If I'm unhappy in life, I. need to make more money. If I'm. struggling with dating, I need to be. sexier. It's a concept that I call toxic. fuel, and that will never work. Because. if I give you a glass of water, and then. I piss in it, and then I add sugar, it. doesn't remove the piss. Because no. amount of building something good will. remove something bad. In order to change. behavior, what you need to do is. save trees. Dr. K is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist. and former monk specializing in modern.

mental health, blending neuroscience. with real-life wisdom to help millions. of people unlock their true potential. There's a loneliness epidemic, social. anxiety is increasing, and falling in. love seems harder. But we have all the. answers. The problem is that everyone is. doing the wrong things now. First of. all, talking about our problems can. absolutely make things worse, because. there's a particular way we have to. talk, but we're not taught how to do. that. The second thing is that we are. struggling to fall in love, and that's. actually because we're exhausting our. dopamine through things like devices. Yeah, people don't realize. And then the. rise in social anxiety is because.

everyone is texting. So the parts of our. brain that reassure us in social. situations are starting to rust. So. there are core things that we have to. start doing. So the first is that. Dr. K, why don't people achieve their. goals? Now, this is really interesting. There. are two kinds of people in life. There. are people who like, I'm going to. advance towards my goals, and then there. are the rest of us who are like, you. know, I'm trying to be like these people. who are productive, but I'm going to do. nothing. And trauma is the big. difference here. Really? Yeah. And this is what tends to happen. So.

Question. If you could sit at a table. with any four guests from The Diary of a. CEO, who would you choose? Here's a challenge for the entire Diary. of a CEO community. If we hit 10 million. subscribers by the end of 2024, you will get to pick four guests for. your dream conversation, and you can. make it weird or you can make it. wonderful, and here is the best part. 3,000 of you that subscribe will be. invited to join this conversation live, in person, and for free.

Subscribe now, and let's make this. happen together. Dr. K, if you had to summarize. what you do for people. professionally, how would you summarize it? I help them understand themselves. And now expand for me what that means. Yeah, so so here's the thing, right? So, there are two great traditions that have. taught us about how humans work. One.

tradition is spirituality, which we've. had for a couple thousand years. The. other tradition is science, which we've. seen an explosion of, especially in the. fields of like neuroscience and. psychiatry, over the last 20 years. And so, these are the two places that. human beings learn about themselves. So, when I work with someone, what I try to. do is draw on both of those traditions, and I especially focus on the area of. spirituality that has scientific. verification. And teach people like how they work.

So, in the same way that if we think. about like, you know, when you buy a. car, you have like a manual that is in. the glove compartment that tells you. what everything is and how it works. The. problem is that in life, like we don't. have that manual for ourselves. But, we. do have these two great traditions that. can teach us so much about this stuff. And so, what I try to do is basically. translate those two traditions to an. individual, the situation they face, the. challenges they face, and the goals that. they want to achieve.

And what experiences and work are you. drawing on. to arrive at the conclusions and the. support that you give people? What have. you done in your life? What experiences. have you had? How many patients have you. seen? The first experience that I draw on is. my own. So, I struggled a lot in high. school, college, failed out of college, was addicted to video games, had no idea. what I wanted to do with my life. Then I. went to India at the age of 21 to find. myself. And I found myself. I spent. about 7 years studying to become a monk. Um so that was very, very formative in.

helping me see how human beings work. But then I was really like kind of. skeptical a lot of a lot of that stuff. So I started doing neuroscience research. for a couple years. I had a couple of. spiritual experiences and I was super. curious like what is happening in the. brain? I'm starting to change as a human being, but like that has to be at a. neuroscientific level as well. Then I ended up going to medical school. So I was thinking about how can I learn. the most about human beings? So I considered doing like a PhD in.

neuroscience, but I ultimately went the. medical route because, you know, the. brain exists within the body. Um became a a doctor, um became a. psychiatrist cuz the mind was my. favorite organ. Um trained at Harvard. Medical School where I was faculty for a. few years. And then, you know, over the. last couple of years I've focused a lot. on addiction psychiatry. And also like performance-based stuff. So once we understand, okay, I once had a patient, for example, who. came in after about 2 and 1/2 years and. was like, "Dr. K, I'm still depressed.".

And then I assessed them, right? So when. when someone has like a mood disorder, they have like depression which causes. them problems in their professional. life, causes them problems in their. personal life. And I asked them, "Are. you having problems in your professional. life?" And they're like, "No.". "Are you having problems in your. personal life?" They're like, "No, but I. still feel the same." And that's when I. told him, I said, "Mike, you're not depressed, you're. unhappy and there's a difference.". And then he turned to me and he's like, "Well, what do we do about that?" And I. was like, "I don't know, but let's see.

if we can figure it out." So really the. work that I do is on that whole. continuum of pathology where something. within you is broken. But then going from -100 to 0 is what. medicine does. Right? A doctor is not going to help you. become healthy, they're going to remove. sickness. And then from zero to positive 100 is. when we really draw on things like. spiritual traditions. Because. meditation, if you look at like the. teachings of the Buddha, the Buddha was not using mindfulness to. treat social anxiety disorder. He was.

using mindfulness to attain. enlightenment, to attain the heights of. human perfection. And so that whole. continuum is where I work. It's so interesting. You mentioned there. the case of Mike. He came to you and he. had self-diagnosed his situation. And. I'm not surprised, frankly, because of. the world we live in now, there's a lot. of people calling a lot of things. depression and anxiety. We kind of use. that word quite flippantly when we go. through different moods and situations. How do you think the whole mental health. and psychology sort of revolution we've.

seen over the last 10 years and the. TikTok application of mental health has. led us astray? So, I think, um, there are some things. that are good about it and some things. that are problematic. So, I think the. really good thing about it is that there. is a lot more awareness of mental. health. So, we now realize, so what I. used to see about 10 years ago, right? When I was seeing patients, is like. people would come in and they would not.

realize that this is a problem that can. be fixed. So, people would come into my. office and they'd say, "I'm a loser. Other people are able to get out of bed, they're able to have discipline, they're. they're productive, they're happy, but. I'm a loser, I have no willpower, I'm. pathetic, I can't get people didn't. realize that that was depression.". I've worked with so many people who have. adult diagnosis of ADHD, which, many. years ago, you couldn't even be. diagnosed as an adult. ADHD had to be. something that was kind of like a. pediatric diagnosis.

So, now I think the the best thing is. that people recognize that, "Okay, maybe. this maybe what is wrong with me is not. like me. I'm not fundamentally broken in. some way, but there is some kind of. process going on in my brain, in my mind. that is responsible for my problems. And. if I fix that, then I can be well. Now, on the flip side, what started to. happen is no one on the internet. understands the concept of differential. diagnosis. So, everyone is like, "Oh, I have a.

TikTok that if this if you sometimes. forget your keys, you have ADHD. If you. are happy in the morning and sad If you. have a kid who throws temper tantrums, they're bipolar." So, everyone is taking. a symptom and jumping jumping to a. diagnosis. Whereas, like literally half. of what we learn in med school and what. we do as doctors is Everyone thinks it's. about treatment. It's about differential. diagnosis. It's about understanding that. if you lose your keys, there are all. kinds of reasons for that. If you have. difficulty getting out of bed, maybe.

it's depression, maybe it's trauma, maybe it's ADHD, maybe it's anemia, maybe it's obstructive sleep apnea. And so, the biggest problem is that. everyone is jumping to a conclusion on. the internet, which then causes problems. because that may not be the right. conclusion. We spoke last time about men. Yeah. Um and there was a lot of discussion. around just this this wild difference. between how men are feeling in the world. and how they're being understood in the. world versus women. We Before we started recording, you said. your thoughts have developed even. further since we last spoke on that.

Yeah, so I think um there are a couple. things to understand. So, the first is that if you're a man. who's struggling in the world today, we as men assume that if we're. struggling, we need to fix something on. the outside, right? So, if I am not. making enough money, the answer to that. is to get some additional certification. or become more. productive, maybe use some kind of. supplement, so that men are. fundamentally different because we are. conditioned, and this could be somewhat. biological, but it's certainly societal,

to solve our problems externally. But the one overwhelming thing that I've. learned about men is that, you know, if. you're a man who wants to get better, 90% of what you need to do is not. outside of you. It's actually inside of. you. But, this is not where men look, right? We we think like, okay, I need to. get this kind of car, or I need to get. sexier, I need to be able to bench twice. as much. So, we always look to things. outside of ourselves. But, in the. majority of the work that I've done with. men, really the work that they need to do is. internal. But, we're not taught how to.

do that. There's a really great example. of this. So, if you look at the top 1%. of earners versus the top 10%. So, the. top 10% of earners on the planet have a. higher IQ than the top 1%. The people who actually make the most. money. have a lower IQ than the the quartile. right underneath them. And the big. difference there is that people in the. top 1% have a very high EQ. So, we. grossly underestimate. the capacity to control oneself. And if.

you really want to achieve the most in. life, that's what you really need to. focus on. And the more that I work with. men, I this is basically what I teach. them, and the outcomes that I see are. amazing. Right? We're talking like on on. the worst end, you know, I worked with a. 32-year-old guy who started using drugs. when he was 13 years old, poly-substance. use, mostly opiates and heroin. Uh so, at the age of 32, no job, um not living on the street, crashing. with his girlfriend. And then, within.

the span of 4 years, this guy became a. therapist himself, had a stable income, got married, and published his first. dystopian fiction novel. So, we're talking about a 4-year span of. like being literally a heroin addict to, you know, being a published author and. like having a stable, fulfilling. relationship and job. And all of that. work is like internal. It's about. understanding the way that you work, understanding the way that your brain. works, and learning how to control. yourself.

Is that the same for women, though? Because I've got women friends who are. same age that are really, really. struggling, have. They're not doing heroin or drugs or. anything like that, but they're the. objective sort of situation of their. life is they're so far from all of their. goals, no partner, feeling lonely, unhealthy, and seemingly out of control. Yeah, so I've worked with plenty of. women for whom that is a problem, as. well. But I think if we look at on. average, right? So remember that like. within any population of men and women, there's going to be more variance.

between women than there is between men. and women. Sure. So I absolutely the case for a lot of. women. I think the big difference is. that a lot of the tools that we have. were sort of designed with women in. mind. A great example of this is like. psychotherapy or talk therapy. So if you. look at the gold standard of how we. process our emotions, it's verbally. Now, studies actually show that if you. look at like estrogen, estrogen has a. very, very interesting effect on.

awareness of your internal emotional. state and the ability to articulate your. internal emotional state. So as estrogen. rises, you literally feel emotions more. So this is why men women will have uh. problems like premenstrual dysphoric. disorder, PMS, you know, when there are. these hormonal fluctuations, it's not. that we should treat them poorly or. anything like that, but they actually. literally feel emotions in a more. intense way because of the fluctuations. in their estrogen level. So.

It's like like that's like scientific. fact. It's not like it's not good or. bad, right? It. It's just something that's a fact. So. the higher your estrogen is, the more. emotional awareness you'll have. So. there are some biological factors, and. then there's also like if you look at. the way that women are conditioned, they're conditioned to be good. listeners, to provide emotional support. for the the men around them. And so they. they use they're a lot better with that. verbal fluency, like that's not even. related to emotions. You can look at, you know, boys and girls who are 8 years. old, girls will have a higher level of.

verbal fluency than boys do at the age. of 8. So, there are a lot of things in. our mental health system that rely on. being aware of your emotions, being able. to articulate your emotions, using words. to process your emotions. And so, absolutely they can learn more. about themselves. I think 99% of human. beings on the planet, myself included, can benefit from learning more about. themselves. But, I think that women have. somewhat of a leg up, which is why women. are 70% of patients who seek.

psychotherapy. Right? Even 70% of. therapists are women. So, there there's. like a a very clear gender gap in the. field of mental health. So, going back up the river then, so the. crux of the issue is not being able to. control oneself essentially. I will control is even a step too far. Crux of the issue is not understanding. yourself, right? Good diagnosis precedes. good treatment. Control comes later. Okay. So, first you need to understand. oneself. Absolutely. And how do I go about understanding. oneself? In in the case of the gentleman.

you mentioned as the case study there, how did he go about understanding. himself as a heroin addict who had poly. substance abuse to the successful. person? So, I think the best place to start, I. know it's going to sound kind of simple, but is to look at yourself. So, what a lot of us do is. anytime we have a problem, the first. thing that we do is we try to jump to a. solution. So, if I'm unhappy in life, I. need to make more money. If I'm. struggling with dating, I need to get a.

better job or be sexier or whatever. So, we tend to jump to solutions. So, I. think the first thing that you've got to. do is slow a little bit down and look at. yourself. And when you look at yourself, there are a couple of things that I. think a lot of people really miss. The first is what drives a lot of their. behaviors. So, we focus so much on fixing a. behavior, like using heroin for example, right? But, we don't really ask. ourselves, why am I using heroin in the. first place? Where does the drive for. using heroin come from? And that is the.

key question, right? So, it's not about. how you need to change. It's about why. am I the way that I am? And this is. where people make such a simple, simple. mistake. I'd say the majority of people that I. talk to, when they look at themselves, they don't. actually they're not critically. thinking. What they actually do is. they'll make some kind of conclusion, I'm lazy. So, like think about what that. means. Like laziness, first of all, is. like not a thing. There is not like a. laziness circuit in the brain. You can't.

measure laziness. Laziness is a lazy way. of looking at laziness. If we look at. human behavior, motivation, discipline, things like follow-through, willpower, these are all discrete functions within. our brain, and then we just say, "Oh, we're lazy." But, which one of those. things is lacking? So, as we understand, okay, why are we lazy? What does that. really mean? Where is my motivation. coming from? What is the status of my. willpower? Um you know, as we explore these kinds. of things, that's when we see really. what the answer is. And the really cool.

thing is if you look at a lot of. research on things like we use this. technique called motivational. interviewing, where. in order to change behavior, you don't. need to convince anyone of anything. You. need to help people understand things. And once a human being understands. something themselves, they will. automatically change behavior. Right? If. I touch If I tell you, "Hey Steven, don't touch that that pan, it's hot.". and you touch the pan and you burn. yourself, you won't listen to me. But, the moment that you touch it and you get. burned, suddenly your behavior will.

change on its own. We learn through. experience. But, if you look at the way. that most people try to solve their. problems, it's not through experience. It's through information. "Oh, I have a. problem, let me buy a book. I have a. problem, let me listen to a podcast. Let. me watch a YouTube video." And this is. what we see, right? There are literally. millions, if not tens of millions or. hundreds of people's millions of people. out there who are gaining a lot of. information about change, but aren't. actually changing. It's wild.

Why is that? Is it Is it a quite complex. psychological thing? Because there's a. certain type of person who is like a. self-development junkie, but they never. self-develop. Yeah. They go to all the conferences, they. watch all the videos, they've got, you. know, they can they they know all the. words, but they they don't actually put. anything into action. Yeah, so there's there's a lot of. subtlety, but the craziest thing is that. see, anytime we engage in some kind of. self-help kind of thing, it actually is a coping mechanism to. deal with some negativity within us.

So, let's say that I feel like I'm lazy. So, then my mind looks looks at me and. says, "Okay, I'm lazy. I need to do. something about it." And then it's. really tricky, right? Because you have. your brain sees two options. One is that. I can do something hard, or the other is. I can do something easy. And we have to. understand this, the brain has evolved. to be lazy. The brain has evolved. laziness is efficiency. We want to get. the most yield out of the smallest. investment. So, then what happens is our.

brain is like, "Okay, I could like go to. the gym, or I could watch a video about. working out." And if I watch a video. about working out, I will be more. efficient when I go to the gym. There. are all kinds of scams that we run in. our mind to actually activate parts of. our brain that make us feel like we're. making progress without actually making. progress. That's how you become a self-development. junkie or self-help junkie. On this point of psychotherapy not being. perfectly designed for men, I was. watching a clip before you arrived, um.

where a lady who's an author of a a book. that's just come out said that talking. about our problems makes them worse. And I was wondering if that's true. It can be. So, I think this is a big. problem is that talking about our. problems can absolutely make things. worse. So, let's understand a couple of. things. So, the first is that there's this. assumption that talking about your. problems makes them better. But, there. actually very specific things that need. to happen in order for talking about. your problems to make things better. The.

most important thing is something called. an emotional catharsis. So, this is where you have like a. breakthrough in therapy. So, there's. like this moment where there's a lot of. moment stuff. And Freud even described. this. Where you have this moment of. very, very intense emotion that is. relatively new. All right, I mean it's. kind of dormant, but it's not like. venting. We'll get to venting in a. second. And so, there there's a. particular way we have to talk about. problems that triggers emotional. catharsis. Emotional catharsis creates. something called like a breakthrough.

So, this is also like an experience. So, this is not just talking about my. problems. This is experiencing my. problems in a different way. So, it's. kind of like touching the hot pan. Usually, it's kind of painful. So, when. we're doing like work with a trauma. survivor, we don't want to just talk. about the trauma. We want to. sort of dig into it a little bit more. and have an emotionally healing. experience. Um the the real problem is that. sometimes what will happen is people. will just talk about their problems. So,

they'll use therapy as essentially like. a venting session. And venting, if we. look at kind of the neuroscience of. venting, venting is useful for reducing. our negative emotion in the moment. But, this is the really tricky thing. If we kind of think about it, you know, like I'll I'll ask you maybe you know. this, maybe you don't. But, why do we. have negative emotions, Stephen? It's a signal. For what? It I would guess that it's a depends on. the negative emotion, but I guess it's a. signal.

that is there to help us connect with. people. Oh, okay. So, let's I think it can be, sure. Loneliness is a great example of a. signal that's designed to connect with. you. What about something like anger or. fear? Why do we have fear? To warn us against impending danger. Absolutely, right? So, if I'm like. running through the jungle. and I see a tiger. and I have fear, fear gives us. information and what else does it do? Gives us physiological energy and. releases adrenaline.

Absolutely. And for what purpose? To. flee. Absolutely. So, this is a big thing that. people don't understand. The primary. motivator for change is actually. negative energy, negative emotion. So, this is the problem with venting. If you. vent and get rid of all of your negative. emotional energy, the drive to change. will disappear. So, if we kind of think about it, what. motivates you the most? It's actually. negative emotion. And you can literally. look at the like the neuroanatomy of. things like the amygdala. So, the.

amygdala is very close to the. hippocampus, which is where learning and. memory happen. So, we actually learn the. most through negative emotions. So, if I. if I'm if I've been happily married for. 15 years and there's infidelity, right? One case of infidelity, the negative. emotion from that one case of infidelity. can drastically motivate me. So, one of. the biggest problems that I see is that. we try to get rid of our negative. emotions and in doing so, we actually.

hamstring our motivational capability. So, that I've seen this a lot where. people will come in and they'll go. through. like what they think therapy is, which. is like. Actually same the same guy, Mike. Came in and he'd like kind of talk about. his problems and I was like, "Bro, I was like, Mike, is this helping?" So, I was still a trainee at the time. So, I. he'd been seeing me for about six eight. months and I was like, "You come in here. and you kind of talk about your problems. and but like you're you don't seem to be. getting better." I didn't know how to do. therapy at the time. And then And like, "Isn't that what I'm.

supposed to do is come in and talk about. my problems? I was like, yeah, I think. so. I was a second-year psychiatry resident, but I was like, is this helping? He's. like, no. And I was like, okay, we got to do. something else then. Coming in and just. venting is not actually psychotherapy. That's not like So, talking about your. problems, reducing your negative. emotional energy can actually keep you. stuck. And if you pay attention to. people in your life, you'll notice that. there are some people who just like. [ __ ] all the time, right? They're just. like constantly complaining, they're. constantly venting, and they don't. actually do anything to change their.

life. It's interesting because with the advent. of social media, you now get reinforced by deficiency. promotion, I call it. There's kind of. these two types of ways that you can. build an audience or a personal brand. One of them is idea promotion. These are. my my ideas. This is how I think about. something. And the other that's emerged, which is really interesting and a little. bit toxic, is like deficiency promotion. These are all the ways that I'm broken. These are all the ways that I'm. inadequate. And you can build an entire audience. around that, which resonate with your.

inadequacies. And then that inadequacy. that you you get held there, because. that's the speaking appointments you get. booked to do. That's what your book's. about. Your book is about all the ways. you're broken and flawed, all the stuff. you've been through. And then you it becomes your your. profession. And I just I watched that. play out so many times. I'm like, I. talked to my friends about it. I'm like, be careful of deficiency promotion, cuz. you might acci- you might accidentally. build a revenue stream that and then. you're [ __ ]. Yeah, absolutely. I I I think we what we. see is that there's a lot of empathic. resonance, right? So, and I think in. some ways that's a good thing. So, I think when when I'm a broken human.

being, there are a lot of broken other human. beings. The problem is when you're a. broken human being, you don't feel like. you're a part of society. You're like. broken and everyone else is out there. living their lives and being positive. And so, it can feel so relieving to. connect with someone else, to realize, oh my god, I'm not alone. Right? So, I think with some of these. deficiency promotion, and we see that a. lot in like psychotherapy groups on. trauma and stuff like that, where. there's a lot of like trauma bonding, and there's also some weird ego there. with like, I'm more broken than you and.

my trauma's worse than you, a lot of. toxic comparison. There's a lot of stuff. that can kind of go awry. But I I think. it there's absolutely a reason why. that's a way that you can build your. brand, because there are a lot of people. out there who feel broken and feel. alone. Mhm. And I'd rather be broken and with. someone. Yeah. than broken and alone. It's all about belonging at the end of. the day. Yeah. All of these things are about, you know, feeling like you belong. Absolutely. What role does. dopamine play in all of this? Because we. we talked at the start about taking back.

control, but much of the reason, as I. learned from Andrew Huberman, that it's. hard to gain control, is because many of. us are on this sort of dopamine roller. coaster in our lives. Yeah, so I I think uh dopamine plays an. important role, but the one thing that I. really come to appreciate is that how. little of a role it plays. So, everyone is like hung up on. dopamine. But dopamine, first of all, is. a neurotransmitter, right? So, dopamine. is also like deals with things like. smooth movement. So, my ability to go. like this is governed by dopamine. You were waving your arm. Yeah. Just like so so like anytime you.

have a smooth motion, so if we look at. something like Parkinson's disease, Parkinson's disease is a deficiency of. dopamine. So, there are there are all kinds of. things that dopamine does. I'd say. dopamine is like a letter in the. alphabet for the brain. We use it in all. kinds of circuits to create all kinds of. behaviors. So, dopamine is uh absolutely important, we'll talk about it, but I think that. there is almost like too much of an. emphasis on dopamine, and we. oversimplify the problem when we focus. too much on dopamine. I'll give you a. really simple example of that. So, one.

is. in my clinical experience, it's almost. like dopamine and serotonin have an. inverse relationship. So, dopamine is. what gives us a sense of pleasure. Dopamine also gives us behavioral. reinforcement. But dopamine gives us pleasure, but will. not give us contentment. So, I have I've. had plenty of patients who chase. dopamine, right? And we know that, you. know, partying a lot, using a lot of drugs, having high adrenaline activities that.

all activate your dopamine system, don't usually leave people feeling. fulfilled and contented at the end of. it. I've had plenty of millionaire playboys. in my practice who like tried that to. find happiness and maximize the pleasure. in their life, and it doesn't work. It's. never going to work. And the the problem. with that is that our brain has this. principle of tolerance. So, the more. that you activate your dopaminergic. system, the more tolerance you'll. develop to it. This is why people need. higher doses of drugs to achieve the.

same goal. This is why people when you. first play a video game, it's a lot of. fun. But hour five, six, seven, eight, it becomes less and less fun. And then. you have old gamers like myself who are. still chasing the beauty and the high of. the games that we used to play when we. were kids. So, dopamine is almost like a. scam neurotransmitter because it offers. you pleasure temporarily, but in an. unsustainable way. On the flip side, we have serotonin. So, serotonin is is associated more with. like contentment and peace. When we look.

at things like mood disorders, oftentimes what we're doing is improving. the serotonin level, boosting the. serotonin transmission in the brain. So, peace and contentment is very different. from pleasure. And these two things are almost. inversely proportional where and it's. really interesting. You can look at. something like orgasm, which is a great. example of this. So, when you have an orgasm, you get a spurt. of dopamine and you feel a ton of. pleasure. And then after your orgasm, you actually get a rise in serotonin and.

you feel incredibly contented. The. really interesting thing is that if your. serotonin levels are high, you won't. feel horny. So, like what will happen is is we know. this because if we give someone. serotonergic medication, if we boost. your serotonin transmission, one of the. side effects is anorgasmia and like you. can't have an orgasm. And then you also. like aren't as sexually you're not as. thirsty, okay? So like this is one of. the side effects. This is one of the. number one reason why my patients stop. serotonin serotonergic medication has to.

do with the sexual side effects. But if we kind of think about the. neurotransmitters involved, right? When. we boost serotonin, and we also see this. in monks who are like super content and. peace and they're not very thirsty. Right? So if we kind of think about it, peace and happiness and contentment in. life comes from serotonin. Dopamine is like actually kind of the. opposite. And monks aren't like thrill. chasers, right? They're they're able to. develop this internal sense of. contentment. So dopamine is absolutely a. part of the problem. It's a very. important part of the problem. But I. think that it's like one piece in a in a.

larger whole. Does this explain why people's sex lives. typically get worse when they're. comfortable. and they're married? Absolutely. It's amazing how much. science can tell us about the formation. of relationships and falling in love. that we just don't apply. So, being attracted, falling in love, developing a relationship, these can. discreetly be described. neuroscientifically. So being attracted actually starts in. the thalamus. So the thalamus is our. sensory organ of the brain. It is kind.

of the sensory gateway. So it interprets. a lot of sensory stimuli. So when I. first meet someone, I'm like, oh, they. look really good, right? Looks really. fantastic and I I feel physically. attracted to them. They smell great. Their laugh is beautiful. So the initial. stages of attraction are all about. sensory input. Then what happens, now this is what's. really interesting. Falling in love is. actually very dopaminergic. So this is. one of the reasons why I think we're. seeing declining birth rates. This is. why it's like if you talk to people. nowadays, like it's hard to fall in. love. Everyone's dating, everyone's.

going out on dates and stuff, but like. falling in love seems harder. And that's. actually because of dopamine. So what. happens is if you look at the phase of. falling in love, what that involves is a. dopaminergic connection. And a great. example of this is like if we're going. to dinner, right? And I put my hand out. to see me and hold my hand. And then. we're All we're doing we're gazing into. each other's eyes and we're just holding. hands. And then we feel in love. And if you. kind of think about people in love, like. it's like a dopaminergic high because. that's literally what's going on. Now. what you see if you see if you go out on.

if you go to a restaurant and you people. watch, which I love to do, what you'll. see is two people on a date both on. their phones. So what's starting to happen is we are. like developing this dopaminergic. tolerance through things like devices. We're actually exhausting our dopamine, which is something that a lot of people. don't understand. We run out of dopamine. because we're using these devices and. then we have none left to fall in love. And then there are later things in the. relationship that are more serotonergic. in nature where it's not as much about. pleasure, but it's about connection and. all kinds of other stuff. So what does that mean if I'm single.

and I'm looking to find love? So if you're looking to find love, there's this is where we have start with. diagnosis before solutions, right? So. the first question is, do you have. trouble falling in love? Do you cuz a lot of people who are. single are like, oh like I don't feel. anything, right? I don't feel a. connection. This is something that I've. heard so much from our community, so. much from patients anymore. I just don't. feel a connection. They seem great on. paper, but I just don't feel a. connection. There's actually. neuroscience behind how to form a. connection, too. Um but what what the first question that.

I ask people is, okay, do you feel like. you just can't feel an emotional. connection to people? Then what you. actually need to do is reduce your. dopamine activation through things like. cell phones. Uh we see this also with. pornography where we know that. pornography correlates with like. unhappiness in relationships. And that's. probably also like a dopaminergic effect. as opposed to all the other things. There's a lot of stuff going on there. So play fewer video games, be on your. phone less, and especially before you go. on a date, you want to like give your. dopamine a chance to recharge. So go on.

a walk for about 1 hour before you go on. a date, and then your literally your. brain's capacity to engage in a date and. fall in love and activate those feelings. is going to be higher. Also, I'd avoid as much dopaminergic. activity as you can before the date, before you see that person. And the more. that you do that, the easier it will be. for you to actually fall in love. Am I right in thinking from what you. said there that dopamine is required for. us to initiate sex and want want to have. sex? Is that what you were saying?

Yes and no. So, dopamine is not actually. required to initiate sex. It's so so. fascinating. You can like So, I tried to. figure this out. Like where where how. does love work in the brain? It's like. every circuit is involved. Every. neurotransmitter is involved. Um so, dopamine is what gives us the pleasure. of orgasm. But initiating sex also for. men and women is somewhat different. So, like you know, women will say like, "Oh, foreplay is really important." Right? And dudes are like, "We don't need a. whole lot of that." And so, the question. is why? So, this is what's really. interesting. So, to develop an erection,

you actually need activation of the. parasympathetic nervous system, which is. the part of our nervous system that. involves rest and digest, which is why. we have morning wood, right? So, when. dudes wake up in the morning, we have an. erection. Why? We're not like horny in. the morning. Well, I don't think so. anyway. Maybe, who knows? But like it. there's a physiology to it, right? Where. when we're relaxed, we'll develop an. erection because the the. development of an erection actually. involves relaxation. And then the sexual act involves.

transition to the sympathetic nervous. system. Now, this is the fight and. flight kind of response. So, what we. want to do is like we want to be relaxed. first, and then we start getting sweaty, our heart rate increases, blood pressure. increases. And this is the other thing. that a lot of dudes don't understand. because our ours nervous system is a. little bit different. So, when it comes. to women, they have the same thing going. on where they need activation of the. parasympathetic nervous system before. they get activation of the sympathetic. nervous system. And then as you activate. the parasympathetic nervous system with.

something like a massage or making out. or something something like that, some. playfulness, relaxation. People really. need to feel safe. Then you can sort of graduate to the. more explicit sympathetic nervous system. sexual act. This has answered so many questions that. I had that I've never sort of vocalized. because I didn't realize the issue, but. I have come to learn that. I am most aroused when I'm not stressed. in any way. But I don't just mean. stressed as in like uh stressed. I mean. if it's Friday night and I've just come.

back from work and I've got home at 9:00. p.m. after a really really long day and. week, I I'm not aroused typically. So, what tends to happen and like we know. this in my relationship, and it's the. same for same for my partner, is on like. Saturday once I've had time to relax and. I've like chilled down and I've all. those kind of things, then I'm then I. get aroused. Um and there is this I. think misunderstanding between men and. women because we get aroused in. different ways. Absolutely. Once again, like we're we're. seeing so many problems in. relationships, so many problems in. dating. And and you know, what happens.

is like women will get branded as all. kinds of the she's an ice queen or. whatever, she won't put out and like. there's a lot of like toxic misogyny. there. And then men will also get. branded as like oh men only want one. thing and they're they're, you know, so. horny, which can somewhat be true. But I. think this is the kind of thing where. once you understand, you know, how does. the male body work, how does the female. body work, what are the ways because the. majority of us is actually very similar. So, like the what separates men and. women is less than what we share. Um so, if you look at for example like. how to create romantic attraction on a.

first date, like that's there's a lot of. good like neuroscience data about things. to do and it's not surprising at all. because if you look at what's the trend. in dates, everyone is doing the wrong. things now. Dates are turning into like. interviews, right? Where it's like I. don't know I don't know what I need to. know if I'm going to waste my time or. not. So, we're going to sit down at a. table. Oh, do you want kids? What do you. want this? How much do you like to. travel? How many trips per year? It. almost becomes a negotiation. And if you. look at the science of how human beings. fall in love, it's completely different.

What is that relationship between cuz as. you're describing that dating process, I. just my head I thought god that sounds. stressful. And then I thought of how. expectation generally creates stress. So. whether it's in the bedroom, having an. expectation that we're going to [ __ ]. tonight cuz it's Thursday and it's date. night, or having an expectation when you. go on a date, the impact that that. stress has on your dopamine and your. ability to be like open and receptive. Yeah, so it's it's it's so interesting, right? So like I know it sounds kind of. weird, but let's use your example of. it's Thursday and we're going to [ __ ]. tonight. So that can be stressful or.

like I don't know if you've been in a. relationship like this, it can be. awesome. Right? So like if I haven't. seen you all week and you haven't seen. me all week and it's like Thursday and. this is the time we've set aside and. like we're finally meeting and we both. are like we're going to [ __ ] tonight, then it's great. Like you know what I. mean or not so much or I don't know. No, no, yeah, yeah. Right? So like this is the key thing. that a lot of people don't understand. So attraction is not about whether we're. going to have sex tonight or not. It's. that we you and I need to be on the same. page. This is a really fascinating study. that looked at first dates on bridges, okay? So one bridge is a stone bridge.

One bridge is a rickety wooden bridge. that's wobbly. And what the study found. is that when you have a date on a stone. bridge, it's like you people feel less attracted. to each other than when you're on a. rickety bridge. Now, what's the. difference? On the rickety bridge, I'm a. little bit scared and you're a little. bit scared. So what what really the the. foundation of romantic attraction is. actually empathic resonance. When I feel. the same things that you feel, when we. both feel it doesn't even have to be. good. It can be negative things, it can.

be good things. We just need to both be. feeling the same thing. That's what. creates attraction. This is also why. people fall in love in rehab. Like. literally at the rehabs that I've worked. at, like we have to like almost have a. rule, right? We can't technically. control them, but we're like, "Hey, no [ __ ] in rehab. So this is going to. we're going to have in because people. will trauma bond, right? We're sharing. all of this deep emotional stuff. You. can be honest, you can be authentic, and. there's someone else in the group who's. also honest and authentic, and you feel. connected. What is the nature of that.

connection? It's shared empathic. resonance. So, one of the biggest things that I. tell people who are, you know, struggling to succeed in dating is like, what are the emotions that you're. bringing to the table? What are the. emotions they're bringing to the table? And if those emotions are not aligned, how can you do some kind of experience. that creates an emotion? So, this is also where like movies. aren't necessarily good or bad. The. question is, do you guys like the same. kind of movies? If y'all like the same. kind of movies, and you both laugh a. lot, that's a great date. You don't need.

to talk. You just need empathic. resonance. So, whatever you can do to. get empathic resonance will create a. connection. My brain went in two directions then. The first question might that pops into. my head was about the role oxytocins. playing in all of that, because I've. heard about this chemical called. oxytocin, which is. there to help us bond, etc. Um and I. remember Simon Sinek saying to me that. when like cities have earthquakes, it's. crazy how much the city comes together, but and that's he pointed oxytocin as. much of the reason for that sort of. shared struggle. Thinking about your. rickety bridge scenario, life sometimes.

becomes a rickety bridge, and people. bond because of that. So, should I be. taking my dates to theme parks, for. example, to terrify the [ __ ] out of them. or watch a. Only if you're equally terrified. Okay. So, that's why it's so important, right? For you to figure out like, what is. something that is going to give us a. shared emotional experience? Uh okay, so you've got Okay, we've got. to both have the same emotion. Absolutely. So, if I'm not scared by it, and she's. terrified, then that's generally speaking not good. Now, there are other versions of that. So, like, you can demonstrate caring, right? So, if I'm terrified, and you. take care of me,

then that can feel good in a different. way. But generally speaking, like, what. gets us like, I'm into this person, is that we feel an. emotional connection, right? That's what. I'm like, into this person. They're like. like, what is the nature of the. emotional connection? It's shared. emotion. So, oxytocin is another phase of the. relationship. So, oxytocin forms. emotional bonds. So, when we feel like. not this And this is what's so. interesting, there's different parts of. the brain, different neurotransmitters. So, oxytocin is what we get from. cuddling, what we get from different.

kinds of touch, something like a massage. can form oxytocin, hugging, holding. hands, all this kind of stuff triggers. oxytocin. And oxytocin will form an. emotional bond, will alleviate feelings. of loneliness. I think one of the. reasons that men are so lonely now. is because we don't feel bonded to each. other. So, oxytocin is more about. forming emotional bonds. And the other way my brain went when we. talking about that is. a question I've asked a lot of sex. therapists I've spoken to, which is. should we be scheduling sex?

This is such a tangent from where we. started, but um based on what you said, Thursday night, date night, etc., should. we be scheduling sex? When I ask sex. experts this, they they go in two. different directions. One group says. yes, one group is so passionately saying. no because it kills that spontaneity, they say. Um and that, you know, Right. So, so I think this is a good. example of like this exactly what I'm. talking about, where. we know so much more about physiology. and neuroscience now that the right. answer to that question depends on the. science. So, you can schedule sex, it's.

just make sure that you do the things. Are you killing some degree of. spontaneity? Potentially. Um and but at the same time, like so. what is it about the spontaneity? Like. let's let's tunnel down. I think this is. exactly what we need to do. What is it. that makes spontaneous sex fun, Steven? Oh, gosh. Uh. [ __ ] Um. what makes spontaneous sex fun? It is. exciting, novel, it is.

Hold on. Who's excited. by spontaneous sex? Me. So, and is it going to happen if your. partner is not equally excited? Well, I think most couples would say. that they much of the reason why their. sex life is not great is because it's. became become boring and predictable and. samey. So, this sort of. spontaneity element adds a bit of. surprise and intrigue and. Now, hold on a second. Okay, great. So, this is we're going to we're going to. figure out an answer. When things become. samey. So, if I watch like what's your.

favorite movie, Stephen? Mhm, The Pursuit of Happyness. Okay, so if I watch Pursuit of Happyness. for the first time, how am I going to. feel emotionally? Oh, it was profound the first time I watched. it. Second time you watch it? Mhm. You know, interesting. fourth time fifth time. So, the more. that we get exposed to something, what. changes within us? Our emotional. the emotions change, right? So, the. first time I do something. Yeah. emotions are activated. When it becomes. habitual, emotions no longer become. activated.

Right. is the problem of non-spontaneous or. spontaneous sex. Is it it has to do with. that emotional empathy, that emotional. connection that leads to attraction. So, this is exactly what I'm talking about. When we look at problems in life, should. couples do this or should couples not do. this? Let's understand the mechanisms at. play and then if we can activate those. mechanisms in the right way, then it'll. work. So, the the issue about. spontaneity is is like, you know, if you. feel like having spontaneous sex but. your partner doesn't, that's not going. to work because y'all aren't emotionally.

I mean, they can accommodate you and. that can be fine. But generally. speaking, what spontaneity adds is more. of that emotional connection. So, when I. work with um you know, patients who are. exhibitionistic. right? So, like why do they like. exhibitionism? What's exhibitionism? Having sex in public places. Okay. So, um it's a it's a kind of fetish, right? Can get you into trouble. That's. how sometimes how they end up in my. office. Um but so so what what if you really. look at it like what what it's all about. is emotional resonance. So, if I'm.

having sex in a public place, that's. going to activate me emotionally in some. way. It's going to activate my partner. emotionally in the same way. That's why. we do it. So, it all comes down to. emotional resonance. So, the second. thing is that if you're going to have. scheduled sex, so like spontaneous is. great, but if you're going to have. scheduled sex, that's still fine, too. It doesn't kill the spark. You just need. to figure out how to activate it, right? So, this is where activation of the. parasympathetic nervous system. Do. something like, you know, give a massage. or even like the sex should come after. some kind of emotional resonance. Let's.

go out and watch a movie together or. let's do something that we both find. emotionally Then once you're emotionally. connected, the sex will be it'll be a. lot easier. I have a friend who has been trying for. a baby. Uh-huh. I'm trying for a baby as well, by the. way, but this is not about me. This is. not me like asking for a friend. He. lives in America and he has just had the. news that he's having a baby. Very, very. happy. And I saw him recently and I was. asking him him about the process of, you. know, timing the sex around your.

partner's cycle and they'd gone for I. think 3 years trying to have a baby, so. it got increasingly more difficult. All. of the complicated emotions. He was. saying to me, he was like, "Honestly, bro, like sometimes we were having to. have sex like three or four times a. day." And I was like, "Bro, how do how. do you keep an erect like when it. becomes a job. in that in that context, you're doing it. because you need to try and hit this. egg, how did you arouse yourself?" And he was. like, "No, I couldn't." He was like, I. I really struggled. I'd lose my erection. all the time. Um.

Um and he literally said to me, yeah, he. was he was having sex. 40, 50 times a month to try. And he was basically being ordered to. have sex with her. Like, "These are the. five days you better have sex with me.". Now, you know, that that is maybe the. extreme case of. total dissipation of emotional resonance. as it relates to sex. Yeah. And the other case the other end of that. pole would be pursuing someone for the. first time, I guess. A stranger for the. first time. And I guess the job for people in their. relationships is how do you keep that. emotional resonance.

So, I I think that that's that's exactly. the kind of question. And I think the. first thing is that's half the answer. Is that a lot of people don't realize. So, like when people get bored sexually. in a relationship, right? So, we have. two populations of people. Some people. will get married. Mhm. And they'll continue to have healthy sex. lives like well into their 70s. Like one. of the craziest things that I remember. encountering in med school was like you. know, when I meet a 70-year-old, I don't. think about sexual health counseling. And it's one of the biggest mistakes we.

make as doctors. Like, you know, when. you have these retirement communities. and stuff, no one's worried about. getting pregnant. You can get outbreaks. of like syphilis and gonorrhea that'll. tear through the community like like. COVID. Like it's crazy. Like we just. don't but sexual desire doesn't. necessarily decrease with age. I know. it's crazy. But we you know, so then the. question becomes, okay, how do you. maintain a healthy sexy sexual. relationship over time? So, at the very. beginning, there are things like. thalamic inputs, right? So, what you see. arouses you. There's some amount of. novelty, which is also like new.

emotions, right? So, then then the 10th. time we watch the same movie, our. emotional connection is less to the. movie. But then this is also how couples. have sex over successfully over time. Is. that they do have emotional connections. So, they as you continue to bond with. your partner over the new experiences. that your relationship has. So, I think having kids is a great. example. Where like having kids will. destroy your sex drive for some amount. of time. They say what, 2 years or something?

Uh on on average. But even within that, it's amazing because you'll find these. moments where like you sort of forget, right? Like how good sex with your. partner is. And then the stars align and. you have sex and it's actually like. incredibly fantastic. It's like, oh, we. should do that more. Right? Like that's that's like what kind. of starts to happen. So, over time what. we want to do is really lean into still. that shared emotional connection. Oh my. god, I had such a like I can't believe. that our kid like finally like they're. the fever's gone. They're relaxing.

We're going to sleep and then at like. 2:00 a.m. you're going to wake up and. you're, you know, it's going to be. great. Right? But like and so as long as. you maintain that bond, it's totally. fine. Um when we think about the mechanisms in. neuroscience that drive our behavior. once we're in a relationship, and even. if it's a platonic relationship, um. how do we. keep the relationship thriving? Like how. do we What are the mechanisms I need to. be aware of in the brain and in. neuroscience that are going to enable my. relationship to be strong and thriving,

whether it's platonic or romantic? You know, cuz we talk about loneliness a. lot and there's so many people that are. struggling with loneliness and it's and. you know, the reasons that we often. attribute to that are the way we're. living our lives or we're behind screens. or social media, but you know, your it. was really illuminating to me that you. were able to point to a mechanism in um. smartphones and social media that is. actually inhibiting us forming. relationships. And I wondered if the. same mechanisms might inhibit us keeping. the relationships that we have. Yeah, so I think there are so many. things that are going on there. So one.

is like how is technology negatively. impacting our relationships? And the. second is how do you maintain a healthy. relationship over time? So there's like. two different things, if that makes. sense. Like what gets in the way? And. how do you how do you keep your tire. nice and full of air versus how do you. uh fix it if a nail punctures it. So. let's start with like what technology is. doing. So this is what technology is. basically doing to our social. connections. There is a whole scale social skills. atrophy and a deconditioning of certain.

parts of the brain when we use. technology. So the first thing to. understand about the brain, this. beautiful thing about the human body, inanimate objects, the more you use. them, the worse they get. But the moment that you have biology, the human brain doesn't wear out, it. rusts. So inactivity of the human brain. is actually what causes problems. Okay? That's number one. So, we can look at studies of like. dementia prevention. And what we know is.

that encouraging neuroplasticity through. things like learning how to play the. piano at the age of 60 will protect us. from dementia. So, we need to utilize. our brain to make it the strongest. This also where you can look at the. physical body, right? So, when I when I. think about what causes muscle atrophy. and what causes muscle growth, the more. I use my muscles, the more they grow. The more you use your brain, the more it. grows. So, when we look at connections, if you actually look at human. communication, words are maybe I would.

say 25 to 50% of communication at most. So, you can walk into a room and without. even hearing a single thing that's said, you can know there's tension in the air. Something is wrong. You can even like I. remember when I was a kid, I used to get. bullied a lot, right? And I would walk. into a room and I immediately knew that. they were making fun of me. Like all the. conversation would stop and everyone. would look at Like one person would look. at me, I'd see alarm in their face, they. would all see Everyone else would see. the alarm in their face, and they'd look. over and they'd see me and know everyone.

would stop talking. I know I'm being. made fun of. So, body language, tone, volume, this is really interesting. So, there even video game companies that are. starting to ban people over voice comms. So, how do you know if someone is. toxically communicating or not? What we. used to do is use like words, right? So, if you say some kind of racial slur in. chat, like if you type it out, the game. knows to scan for that and then people. will start to get around that. They'll. use an at sign instead of an A. So, now.

what they're doing over voice comms is. measuring tone. Oh. So, depending on the volume of what. you're saying, right? Like that's how. they're actually detecting toxicity. because that's where toxicity exists. It's not, "Oh, hey Steven, you're a real. loser. I really dislike you." It's like, Stephen, bro, you're such a loser, man. All my god. And even if I say that, right? It's not negative at all, even. though I'm using negative words. It's. another quick aside. So, men are really. specific for using the negative. expression of a positive affection. So,

this is something that's different about. men. So, what we'll do is we'll actually say. negative things to a friend of ours to. express approval. Like when someone gets. engaged or gets married, it's like, oh. man, like it's the old ball and chain. We're going to lose you. You're whipped. But everyone's smiling. Everyone's. congratulating you. But we just express. it in a negative way. Yeah. So, so much of our communication is. tone, is body language, is volume. Now, what's happening is everyone is texting. So, then the brain does something very. that it's designed to do. It's like,

hey, we're not using this thing. Let's. lose it. So, if you don't speak a language, our. brain forgets it. So, as you. This is what a lot of people don't. realize is that there's a rise in social. anxiety. Why is there a rise in social. anxiety? It's because the parts of our. brain that reassure us in social. situations are starting to atrophy. So, when we don't pay attention to body. language, when we don't pay attention to. tone, those parts of the brain shut off. And then when I go into a social. situation, those parts of the brain are.

inactive. So, they can't reassure me. Now, what happens is I go to a party. that I was invited to or I go to dinner. with my friends that I was invited to. I'm kind of sitting at the end of the. table. No one's really talking to me. And I'm like, oh, like I really. shouldn't be here. These people just. invited me out of politeness. They don't. really care about me. But if your brain. is functioning well, you're able to read. all of this nonverbal communication. that's reassuring. So, when it comes to platonic friends. and why this is hard, we are atrophying.

a lot of the social skills, a lot of. these brain regions that allow us to. form connections, allow us to feel. reassured, allow us to feel safe. Right. now, I kind of feel like, oh, my friends. are inviting me, but I'm bothering them. by going. Like all these kinds of things. we're seeing more and more of. Are you hopeful about generation Z that. have been connected from birth? Yeah. So so I I I think that even though. things are problematic, right? We're. talking about how things are negative. and social anxiety is increasing and. suicidal suicidality is increasing. I'm.

very optimistic because I think we have. all the answers. Like that's what's so. cool. Like we have a problem. but we haven't been addressing it. directly. Even between the last time I was here. and now, we've learned so much more. people are taking social stuff more. seriously. The Surgeon General of the. United States released like this this um. a bulletin on lone like the loneliness. epidemic. Right? So even like the. medical establishment is starting to see. loneliness as a problem that we need to. target. Half of the problems that we see in the. world today is because we haven't tried.

to fix them. They kind of crept up on. us. Things like video game addiction, things like loneliness. Now we see okay, this is a big problem. So let's start. devoting resources to it. Let's. understand what's going on. And we see. this a lot like even on our community. like where we start targeting a problem. and people do better. The only reason we're losing the war is. because we haven't been fighting back. Why haven't we been fighting back? Technologies. must play a pretty significant role in. in this. I think we were slow we we're really. good at creating things without.

understanding what they will do to us. Because the impact doesn't show its face. for a couple of decades and. Absolutely. And there's there's a. there's an even more insidious thing. which is right now the since it's. isolation, like since we're seeing more. isolation, we don't see the impact because. literally these people are staying home. So the majority of of, you know, young. men for example, like won't ever go to a. therapist, which is why we can't help. them with their problems. They won't. share their problems with other people. because first of all, they don't know.

how to. and secondly, they don't even know what. they're feeling so that they just like. feel like they're a loser. So what we've. started to see is that these problems. have been going on for about 10, 20. years, but they're now reaching a. critical point where like we're now. noticing what's going on. But, this has. been going on for a while. Are people becoming more narcissistic? Yes. They are. Yeah, absolutely. And what impact is that having? I don't even know where to start. Like, so I I think it's affecting our. relationships, it's affecting our. happiness, it's affecting our.

professional ability. I was thinking is social media making us. more narcissistic and is that then. driving us to be more lonely? And if so, how do we first define the word. narcissism in this context? Yeah, so I'm going to lean into um kind. of a more yogic definition. So, we have. this this word in Sanskrit called. ahankara. And ahankara means ego. So, ahankara is your sense of self. I am dot. dot dot. Okay? So, I am tall, I am. short, I am doctor, I am father, I am. winner, I'm loser.

The first thing to understand about ego. is that it is not a real thing. It is an. abstraction. So, if you were to look at me and you. say if I say I am a doctor, I know this sounds kind of like kind of. a weird question, but is that true? Like, what makes me a doctor? I can't. biopsy myself and find doctor. You can't. find doctor anywhere within me. Doctor. is I have a piece of paper on a wall. That's what makes me a doctor. I have a. license to practice medicine. That's. what makes me a doctor. It's an. abstraction. So, it's not like a truth,

it's like a societal shared delusion. that we all agree that I'm a doctor, that's why I'm a doctor. Okay? And does. that make sense? Yeah, of course. Okay. So, this is the ego. Now, what we also know is that from. studies on narcissism that narcissism. has its roots in insecurity. So, if you think about someone who's. like egotistical and confident, like. Stephen, I'm sure you know both, what's. the difference between the two? Confidence feels more secure and.

egotisticalness feels more insecure. Absolutely. Where does a confident person's esteem. come from? Inside. Where does a egotistical esteem come. from? Outside. Beautiful. So, this is what's what social media is. doing. Social media and technology is. externalizing our perception. So, if I think about it like think about. a couple thousand years ago, what was my mind focused on? So, I would. go out to hunt.

I'm looking for an animal. I shoot a. deer. And then I walk 3 hours back. So, for some amount of time my mind is. paying attention to the external. environment. Maybe I'm talking with the. people that I'm hunting with. But what. is there to say? Like I can't talk to. them for 10 hours a day. There's no. substance There's no. news, right? We're like this tribal. community. So, if you really look at the. history of humanity, our perception has been internally. focused at least 50% of the time. Literally what we are paying attention.

to is our own thoughts, our own. feelings, the voices, the desires, the. drives that come within us. What technology has done is whole-scale. externalize our perception. And this is even where like, you know, I. used to be like an efficiency junkie. And so, when I was in med school, I was. going to be like you, Stephen, and I was. going to be super efficient. I was going. to be super successful. So, I was like. listening to a podcast in the morning. about self-help. I was going to listen to lectures on my. way to the subway. I was going to read.

on the way on the subway. I was going to. listen to a lecture on my way to the. classroom, pay attention in the. classroom, then do some questions, like. some test questions, whatever. So, my. mind was constantly outside of me. Social media makes this even worse. because now we're doom scrolling, we're. looking at what other people are doing. So, we are starting to exist outside of. ourselves. Once we exist outside of ourselves, all. of our esteem comes from the outside. world cuz that's where we're spending. our time. So, what's happening is as we become.

more externalized, we're becoming. insecure, because where does confidence. really come from? It doesn't come from. inside. This is a big mistake a lot of people. don't realize, which is. if you do really well. and you don't believe in yourself, you. don't become secure. A lot of people. think that becoming secure is about. being successful. That's not the case. If you're really successful, you don't. end up with security. You end up with. imposter syndrome. So, I went to Tufts for medical school. and I did my residency training at.

Harvard. And what I saw is that the more. successful you become, that increases. the rate of imposter syndrome. There's. way more imposter syndrome at Harvard. than there is at the University of. Texas. There's way more. imposter syndrome at a place like. Goldman Sachs than there is at Bank of. America. So, lots of success actually creates. this idea that I don't really know if I. can do this. Everyone else is so much better than me. So, we see actually lots of success. leads to imposter syndrome. Confidence.

doesn't come from success, it comes from. surviving failure. It's also far more internal. So, it's. not something that anyone else gives. you. It's like when you believe in. yourself, then you're confident. And. then the beautiful thing is that once. you believe in yourself, then other. people can think whatever they want to. about you. The way that you receive. criticism, if you if you criticize an. egotistical person, they will argue with. you and convince you that you're wrong. and call you stupid. Whereas, if you're. confident, someone says, "Hey, you're an. idiot." I can say, "Okay, help me.

understand why." Like, I could be an. idiot. Help me understand. Mhm. Right? So, this is where what's Social. media is doing is externalizing our. perceptions, building our ego. We're so. focused on the judgment of other people. I see the amount of body like subtle. low-level body dysmorphia that I see in. young women is skyrocketing. And I have a buddy who's a plastic. surgeon at Yale and you know, he's just. stunned by you know, you you have now. young women in their 25 26 27 who are. getting plastic surgery like on a yearly.

basis like small amounts of Botox. injections or lip fillers or like. whatever. Men, too. Men, too. So, that's also what the other. great equality thing we're seeing is. body dysmorphia has a meteoric rise. within men. This is another situation. where it used to be primarily a female. diagnosis. That's evening out real. quick. So, social media is making us focused on. our external appearance. We lose our. connection to ourselves. And then once. we lose our connection to ourselves, we. lose the capacity to gain confidence.

And how does this then result in. loneliness on a societal level? Oh, it's so many different things. So, the first reason it makes us lonely, so. this is I've also seen the highest level. of. being around people and being lonely. So, I see so many people who have jobs, even have girlfriends, boyfriends, have. friends, and they feel so incredibly. lonely. So, what happens when we. are externally focused, right? So, if I.

if I'm lonely like I need to put myself. out there. So, what I'm going to do is. transform myself. And this is where a. lot of it's so interesting cuz a lot of. the. guidance we give people. helps in some way, but actually worsens. the problem. So, if I'm lonely, I'm. going to focus on my social skills, I'm. going to get a good haircut, I'm going. to learn how to dress, I'm going to. start working out, I'm going to become. professionally successful. And now I. I've become something that I can be. proud of. And now that I've become something that. I can be proud of, I'm going to go.

interact with other people. And look at. they're going to love me because now I'm. sexy and I'm successful and I'm I know. how to talk to people and I'm going to, you know, talk to them in this way and. I'm going to do eye contact and I'm. going to do all of the things to. you doing that accent? To connect with you. To make you like. me, right? See, now you're Now you're. laughing, so now I feel okay because now. I know, "Oh, Steven's laughing. He likes. me. I'm likable.". So, what we actually do is we create a. false version of ourselves for people to. love.

And that's what really screws us because. they don't fall in love with us. They. don't like us. They don't like the. broken, pathetic kid that I used to be. They like this glossy, polished version. And that creates a fundamental. loneliness even though you can be. dating. It's so interesting cuz I I'll. work with influencers. Like we have a. creator coaching program. And like it's so hard for influencers to. date. Because who is falling Are you. falling in love with the influencer? Are you falling in love with Diary of a. CEO host? Or are you falling in love.

with Steven? Right? Is it Dr. K or is it Alok? So, this is What's really paradoxical is. that we think that forming all of these. connections will help our loneliness. where oftentimes it creates the opposite. effect. Where now what they love is a version of. me, not the real me. And now the problem. is they love this polished version. What. happens if I show them the ugly version? They won't accept me. I can never show. it to them. This is what I noticed in my own life. I. noticed that before 25, I was a total.

failure with women. And before 25, the. real defining characteristic of that. chapter of my life was. all the external stuff. Like the Louis. Vuitton bag, the champagne bottles in. the nightclub, the really trying really, really hard to convince them. And then. after 25, I had much more success with women and. that chapter of my life can be. characterized by knowing who I was and. being cool with it. All the stuff seemed. to fall away. Like all the external. stuff seemed to fall away. And for some. reason I cuz I I talked to my friends.

who are struggling with dating at the. moment about this just to see if it can. help them in any way. The chapter of my. life where I was reading those those. books, the like pick up artistry books, and I was trying really hard was my most. unsuccessful, but the phase after where. I stopped. chasing so much, um it the only way I can describe it is. there's like a thousand little micro. things in me that changed. Whether it's. my posture, the way that I I don't know. what it was, but for me it's that season. of insecurity and then the season of. confidence.

And I'm just throwing that out there. because um it kind of overlaps with what. you were saying about the influencers. and when you're trying too hard, you're. actually struggling the most today and. um and if you see this in your practice. Now, hold on a second. So, let's define. success. So, when you were doing Louis. Vuitton bags in pre-25, were you going. on dates? I was going to the club every like two. times a week to with like and ordering. as much champagne as I could to get. people to come to my table and like to. impress the girls that are at my table.

and stuff. Did it work? Well, all the girls that I wanted never. wanted me back. So, the like four. girls that I really pursued, I could. name them, but I probably shouldn't. Um. I could never get them to be in a. relationship with me. Like they wouldn't. It would I would have like short-term. success and then they would never. There we go. So, this is really. important, right? So, this goes back to. what we were saying. Short-term success. is thalamic, right? So, that's sensory. perception. So, you could never get into. a relationship. So, this is like. perfect, right? So, let's understand.

So, the champagne will get you to come. to get them to come to the table. Oh, who's this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring them back. to the apartment. Right? And look, you can get somewhere, but think about where you were. emotionally and where they were. emotionally. You were like, "Oh, please, please, please.". Right? And there that's not where they. are emotionally. So, it's doomed to. failure. Yeah. So, like I was just using that cuz it's. like a prime prime example of And then. what happens is your confidence. So, you're like meeting them where they're. at. You're a little bit confident, hopefully they're a little bit. confident, you form a connection. And.

just doing a little bit of math, it. sounds like you've been dating your. current girlfriend for a couple years. now. It sounds like it didn't take long. from you being confident to like find. someone that you've been with. Exactly. I've been with her for like six. years, yeah. Yeah, like like it's like so easy. Once. you do it right, you kind of get locked. down real quick, right? And same thing. happened with me. So, what a couple of things. So, first. is like this just goes back to once. again, we can take your test case with.

the neuroscience of how to fall in love. and it maps on. And like that's the beauty of science is. that it's true. Now, I even forget what So, you were. saying talking about security and. insecurity. So, now you you said. something beautiful, which is like a. thousand different microcosm micro. cosmic things in here, right? Like. microscopic little tiny little things. that you do within you. I say that because when I read the book. on how to pick up women, it would give. you these little games, these little. tricks you could do. And even if I did. those, even if I acted,

there was still something going on which. meant these women didn't want to be with. me, like in a relationship. I could I. could pull, quote unquote, pull them. I. could get them on, you know, short term, but I couldn't get them to to be with. me. Yeah, right. So, so and I I think that's. because human beings are incredibly. empathic. So, what you feel on the. inside is what other people resonate. with. So, even if we look at this podcast, why. is this podcast so successful, Stephen? It's because you are authentic. It's because you're genuinely. interested. And the moment that you. become genuinely interested, everyone in.

the audience is going to become. genuinely interested. So, this is what's. really crazy that a lot of people don't. understand. Everyone is trying to. manipulate other human beings into doing. what you want. I want this person to. fall in love with me. If you want to be. a leader, if you want other people to be. with you, the most important thing is. authenticity. There's studies about this, that if you. look at like how people in in the. workplace rank leadership, authenticity. is at the top of the list. So, authenticity and the ability to navigate.

negative challenges. These are the two. most important things to like be a. leader if you look at studies of. psychology. So, when you're talking about these. thousand microscopic things that you do, that's exactly what I do in my work, right? It's helping people It's not. solving the problem outside of you. It's. solving the problem in here. And once. you know how the instrument works, people will flock to you. This is what. charisma actually is. Charisma is like. authenticity and the confidence to face. hard times. If you have these two. things, when you walk into a room,

people will like stop what they're doing. and just like look at you. It It changes. the way that you conduct yourself, right? So, we even know that there's. this this discipline called something in. your mind, it affects your brain. When it affects. your brain, it affects your whole immune. system. It affects your physiology, and. other people pick up on that. So, you have to solve internally first. Like the more internally solved you are, like like. Yeah, so [ __ ] true. And I say this as.

well from a position of um both. leadership, but also being a founder of. companies who appoints leaders. And if I. think back over the last 10 years, every. single leader that I've appointed as CEO. or something in the C-suite who has then. struggled was not being themselves. Absolutely. And I just And it's so I I have three. cases in my brain right now of leaders. who I appointed over the last 10 years. in these companies. And three All three. of them failed. And if I can if I could. articulate exactly why they failed, it. was because they were trying to be what.

they thought a leader was, and they. weren't being themselves. And people can. see it. Like the thing I said about the. thousand little micro-expressions that. you can't control that just show up. invisibly when you are. when you feel a certain way inside, that's exactly what those three leaders. that come to mind didn't understand. Was. I watching them do the presentation to. the team was got thinking, "God, that. person's not being themself, and they're. trying to be a leader. And if I know it, I bet everyone else in this bloody room. can feel it, too.". And then I've seen the opposite as well, um where leaders have been tremendously.

successful, and you just know that this. person that I'm experiencing right now. is who they are. So, that's the crux of it, right? So, I. think that the challenge right now is. everyone is looking to become something. that they're not. as opposed to really understanding who. you are, the good and the bad. Easier said than done, though, isn't it, in the world we live in? Well, that's Well, that's because we. don't know how to do it. I mean, until. now, we don't know how to do it. properly. How do we How do we do it? So, I think there are a couple of core. things that we have to start doing. So,

the first is that you have to become. less alexithymic. So, alexithymia, I don't know if we I. don't remember if we've talked about. this before, but. alexithymia is color blindness to your. internal emotional state. So, you have to know what you are. feeling basically at all times. Our. emotions are our primary source of. motivation. So, and our emotions will also, like, just because we are numb to our emotions. doesn't mean that our emotions don't. act. So, we see this a lot with. technology where technology suppresses.

your internal emotional state. You don't know what you're feeling. But, like, this is crazy. Like, just because. you don't you're not aware of your. anxiety. doesn't mean that like it's not like the. your anxiety portion of your brain shuts. off. And you'll if you're if you're. worried about this, there are a couple. of really interesting signs. So, one thing that's a really. interesting sign of suppressed emotion. is what happens when nothing else is. going on. So, a lot of a lot of us are addicted to. this external world. I need to be doom.

scrolling. I need to be doing social. media. I need to be productive. I need. to be listening to a podcast. We can't. sit with ourselves. So, if you when you go to bed at night, can you just fall asleep naturally? Or, what happens a lot is suppressed. emotions start to come out when we. sleep. And this is the big problem is the more. technology we use that we get into this. weird situation where another good place. that emotions come out is during dreams. So, we do a lot of our emotional. processing when we sleep.

Now, the big problem that we're seeing. nowadays, this is kind of a random. aside, is that normally the human being. processes emotions throughout the day. for about 16 hours, and then whatever is. left over at night gets processed while. we sleep. We have dreams and things like. that. Now, what's happening is we do zero. emotional processing through the day, and so our brain can't really make any. emotional progress because it has all. this work that's been built up. We've. been suppressing emotions, suppressing. emotions, suppressing emotions. And in. my case, when I was like addicted to.

video games, I had to play until the. state of absolute exhaustion because if. I went to bed, all of these thoughts. will come up. I saw this hilarious meme. about, you know, we have during the day. we're sitting upright, so all of our. anxiety's at the bottom of our feet, and. when we lay down like a liquid, it. enters our brain. So, if you're someone. who has like a lot of, you know, negative emotion when you go to bed at. night, that is a signal that you were. suppressing too much emotion during the. day. Okay, so you're talking about me to some. degree here. Now, I wouldn't ever.

categorize the emotion I experience at. night as negative always. Sometimes it. is a little bit negative, but it's. typically not negative. It's just loud. So, what I end up doing is I end up. watching. YouTube until I fall asleep or watching. some serial killer thing until I fall. asleep. And it's And my partner, she's the. opposite, you know, she's a bit of a. yogi. You know, like she can just ah. If she's on the pillow for 3 minutes, she's. Brilliant, right? I'm so jealous of it. But yeah, and so what you need to do is.

So, if if you have loud emotions, so. what's an example if it's not negative, but it's loud? I love the way you said. that, by the way. It's just it's me re- like thinking. about something in the company or one of. the businesses and going, "Okay, this is. the solution. And now I finally figured. out the solution, and now I need to. write this memo, and I need to blah blah. blah blah blah.". Yeah, so I think that this is. makes a lot of sense. So whatever is. built up throughout the day, whenever. your brain gets idle time, it will. process. So this is also something that. I think a lot of people don't realize. We've stopped harnessing the power of.

our subconscious mind. So if you look at. we're all like logical, right? We're. like let's do analysis, let's do this. If you really look at the source of. human like brilliance, it's never. logical. So logic is something that we use to. feed our subconscious mind or our. unconscious mind data, and then our. unconscious mind plays around with it. And then actually creates a motivational. change. So when I I work with people who. are addicted to substances or you know, I worked with someone recently who had a.

a relationship that wasn't going on very. well, right? And so what what happens is. we're like, I don't know what to do. Should I break up? Should I not break. up? You don't know what the answer is. And then what happens is you're like, okay, let me break up with them. And. then you haven't really worked through. it. So when you break up with them, now. I feel alone. Oh, maybe they'll take me. back. I'm going to text them anyway. And. then we see this ping ponging. So also if you're ping ponging in life, your unconscious mind is not functioning. the way that it's supposed to. If you. think about a healthy breakup, what. happens is you wake up when your day and. you're like, enough is enough. I'm done.

Think about that for a second. Where. does that resolve come from? Why didn't. you wake up with it the day before or. the week before or the month before? I. see this a lot in addiction psychiatry, too. Where one day like after 14 years. of alcohol addiction, enough is enough. and I'm done. And that's what happens. with most people. They'll do it cold. turkey like at some random time. But. what's going on is there's a lot of. unconscious work that your brain is. doing that then creates resolve. And what we're starting to do is we're. not allowing our brains to do that.

because we're so occupied in the. external world, we don't experience our. emotions. And if we don't process our. emotions during the daytime, then at. night, which is where the majority of. learning and memory take place. That's. when we have consolidation of memory. But if you're if you've like, you know, have a bunch of piled up emotions, your. brain can't learn from your mistakes. So what we really need to do is be more. aware of our emotions during the day and. like do some amount of emotional. processing during the day. That'll.

unlock or free your brain up to do all. of this other stuff at night. How? Great question. So I think for this is. where we it gets kind of technical. So. the first thing that I would say for men. especially is that we experience a lot. more emotion in our bodies than. is generally psychiatrically like. accepted. We're seeing some changes of. this. So one really good example of. this, about 10 years ago. um so I'm I'm kind of interested in. evidence-based complementary and. alternative medicine. So someone that I. met said, "Hey, have you ever heard of.

tapping?" And I was like, "What is. this?" And it's something called the. emotional freedom technique. And what. they told me is that if someone has. trauma you can tap on them, you can. become a tapper, and there's this. particular way to do it, and then you. tap on certain parts of their body and. it releases the trauma. So I was like, "What BS is this? This sounds like. complete BS.". Now over the last decade there have been. several studies on it. There was. recently a meta-analysis that came out. that showed that. tapping is actually pretty effective for. like treating trauma. And I was like, "What the hell is this? This is wild.". Right? So even if we don't understand. what the mechanism is.

you can study whether people's trauma. gets better or not. But I think this is. just one of the many things that we've. learned about emotions existing within. the body. This is also a big problem that I see. right now in our mental health system is. the majority of therapists have no. training in the physical body. But if we. think about like, you know, anger. releases adrenaline, affects blood. pressure, affects heart rate, affects. gut peristalsis. So a lot of our. emotions are physical. So the first. thing that you've got to do if you're a. dude and you don't understand what. you're feeling. is like pay attention to your physical.

body. So do you feel tension? Do you feel a tightness in the chest? And we men will actually use very good. emotional language as long as it relates. to being physical. So, I'll tell you. Steven man. this girl called me and it was like she. kicked me in the nuts. Now, what does. that mean? What does that emotionally like I don't. know, you don't know, but we both know. what we're talking about. We know what. it's like oh my god, dude, I know it. sucks, dude. It sucks when they kick you. in the nuts. Oh my god, dude, it was. like a punch to the gut. Oh my god,

dude. Like you know, when when we have. issues of lack of self-esteem, it's like. small penises, right? I feel like my. penis is small. It's like emasculate. Like all of these negative emotions we. use physicality. We use the language of. physicality. Second thing that you should do is is. use your physical body. So, there's. there's all kinds of things that you can. do. So, I I think deep breathing is a. really fantastic thing that you can do. Um exercise is really great. I mean, there are tons of people that I worked. with who were like therapy didn't work. for me, but after a breakup lift, bro.

Like we hear this advice. And we in the. medical community is have been so. arrogant because we've said, oh no, you. should go to talk therapy. Like you're. wrong. Lifting didn't work for you. What. you should do is go to talk therapy. That's not the case. When when this is. working for people, we should pay. attention to it. And the more that we. learn about science, the more we should. tap into our body. So, the first thing. that I would say is anytime you're. feeling uncomfortable, where is that. physical discomfort? There's actually. really fascinating study that has mapped.

uh. sent each emotion up to 100 emotions to. different part like different schemas in. the body. So, anger is like in the. chest. Um sadness is like in the chest. and in the stomach. Uh you know, worry. is in the brain and in the stomach. So, like you can actually map out like each. emotion to a physical sensation. The cool thing is that once you detect. the emotion, if you adjust that physical. sensation, you will mentally get better.

There's a really great example of this. If you clench your right fist, you will. feel angry. And if you clench your left fist, what. do you feel when you clench your left. fist? Let's see. Um. It's like I don't know. Feel I feel a. bit like a release. I don't know. Yeah. So, it's really fascinating. So, there's actually studies on this that. show that clenching your right fist. activates your left hemisphere and will. lead to anger. Clenching your I'm sorry. Clenching your right fist. Clenching. your left fist will actually calm you.

down. Can sometimes lead to like. sadness. But they're even like all kinds. of cuz everything in the body is. reciprocal. Everything is like a. circuit. So, you can activate it in one. way. Like your mind affects your body. and your body affects your mind. Even if your your um your dominant hand. is your left hand. We don't know. Okay. So, I think these are usually done on. right-handed people. So, there may be. some variance. But the key thing still. remains that. um you know, there's one technique that. I'll do in with patients in my office. when they're about to have a panic. attack. If we're doing like some deep.

deep trauma stuff and they're getting. physiologically activated, I will tell. them to run as fast as they can for 60. seconds. So, when you run really really fast for. 60 seconds, like exercise your heart. out. Like someone is chasing you. Like. you're being chased by a monster. So, what happens is that when we have a. very very high activation of our. sympathetic nervous system, our fight or. flight response, it automatically kicks. in the parasympathetic nervous system. when we're done. So, when someone is stuck in an anxiety.

state and that's like a feeding cycle. So, I feel anxious. Now my heart rate is. elevated. Now adrenaline gets released. Adrenaline travels to my brain and makes. me feel more anxious. I have more. anxious thoughts. So, this becomes a. cycle. How do you break the cycle? You. actually activate the sympathetic. nervous system so hard that the body has. to kick in with the parasympathetic. nervous. Which must be quite hard because when. people are struggling, they typically. have lower motivation, right? Yeah. So, getting to the gym is harder. But you so so that that's why so you can.

do the 60-second run. Like literally, I. used to have an office that was on. Commonwealth Avenue, and I would walk. outside with my patients, and we would. run as fast as we can or do as many. push-ups as you can. Interesting. So, the really crazy thing is that when. we try to control our emotions by. calming ourselves down, like if you tell. someone who's pissed, "Hey, calm down.". What happens? Hmm, they don't get calm, yeah. Not at all. them. Right? So, you need to do the opposite. Sometimes you need to lean into whatever. emotion you're feeling, activate your. physiology, and it'll calm your emotions. down. I haven't read the book, but I loved the.

title of the book, The Body Holds the. Score, and I watched a summary of that. book, and one of the things it talks. about in the book is the role of yoga as. one of the things that really helps. people with certain mental health. predicaments. I was wondering if that's. sort of overlaps with what you're saying. here. I I don't do yoga, but a lot of. people that do almost see it as a form. of therapy. Um. and it seems that there's been lots of. research on yoga as a as a way to help. with our. stress, our mental health, with. depression, anxiety, and all of these.

kinds of things. Um what's your thoughts on yoga? I think it's great. So, I was you know, I I was a very serious student of yoga. for about 7 years. Um. I recently reinvigorated my yogic. practice. I think uh. yoga is absolutely transformative for. trauma. Um I think it can achieve health. outcomes that we're not really fully. aware of. And the simple reason for that is you. have to look at the studies on yoga. So,

usually when we do a scientific study, we have to we we want to be like very. careful from a scientific protocol. standpoint. So, we're going to take two. groups of people, 100 200 people. So, group number one is 100, group number. two is 100. We're going to teach 100. people yoga, and then we're going to. measure what happens after 12 weeks. The. other 100 people are going to do. something like exercise. So, the key thing that we have to. understand about studies on yoga is. we're taking novices and we're teaching. them yoga. They're still novices at the. end of the study and we see some health.

benefits. There are very few studies on. yogis. Right? There are a lot of studies. on yoga, but a yogi is very different. from yoga. So, when you get when you become an. expert in yoga, so I do this work myself and you know, I. teach my patients this kind of stuff. So, you learn a lot about the way that. your mind functions. I think there are a. lot of correlations with CBT, but. uh. you know, like yoga will teach us, for. example, about our ego. And so, how do. you know if your mind is malfunctioning.

or not? So, you know, like you were. saying before when we were talking, you. mentioned, "How do I know if I'm wrong. or my partner's wrong?" Right? How do. you know if your mind is functioning. properly? One of the biggest problems in. the world today is that your mind comes. up with conclusions. How do you know if your conclusion is. right or wrong? Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong. And we just assume. that there's no way of knowing the. difference. That's not true. So, if your mind is operating in a pure. way that's free from cognitive bias, which we also know scientifically, then. your mind will come up with the right.

conclusions. So, the question is how do we remove. cognitive bias from the mind? That's. what the discipline of yoga teaches us. So, two things to consider if you want. to know whether your mind is thinking. clearly or not. First of all, what emotions are you feeling? And if. you say, "I'm logical right now. I don't. feel any emotion." That is factually. incorrect. There is no point 24 hours a. day, 365 days of the year, blood is. flowing to your the emotional circuits. of your brain. You are never not feeling.

any emotion. So, the first thing we need to do is. understand yoga teaches us this. What is. the emotional impact of our thoughts? The second big thing is what is the ego. saying? So, if your ego is active, your. ego will create cognitive biases. I feel. insecure. So, what I'm going to do is. I'm going to do some mental gymnastics. to put someone else down and elevate. myself. Now, what you're doing is mental. gymnastics. You're adding a cognitive. bias to help yourself feel better. So, yoga from a physiological level will.

calm down our balance our nervous. system. Um you know, it can do things like. change our respiratory rate. About 18. minutes of yogic practice is what it. takes to shut down cortisol production. in our brain. So, we know that cortisol. will then affect all kinds of things. So, yoga works on the physiological. level. It absolutely trains us mentally. Right? So, like yoga I think is like the. most robust system of like mental. training that exists in the world. So, how do your mind How do you control your. desires? How do you control your.

perceptions? Um all that kind of stuff. There's a lot. of good trauma healing that can happen. in yoga, which has to do with a slightly. different concept. So, I think yoga is. incredibly useful and incredibly. powerful. Trauma healing. I am I was watching. something you talk when you're talking. about how people who have experienced. trauma. almost operate in defense in their. lives. And earlier on we were saying. that you know, people have these stories. they've told themselves, I'm lazy, I'm. this, I'm that. But when I heard you. talk um so articulately about how trauma.

makes us play life in defense, it made. me understand maybe a lot of people that. I know in my life that aren't. overtly motivated and seem to struggle. with uh things like discipline. What. have we got to understand about the. nature of trauma and the impact it has. on us as it relates to our ability to. show up and achieve our goals? A beautiful question. So, this was like. one of the things that when I discovered. this, it was transformative for me and. transformative for my patients. So, see people who There are two kinds of.

people in life. There are people who. like have plans and goals and work. towards those goals. They're like, I'm. going to get up today and I'm going to. like advance towards my goals. I want to. accomplish this in life. I'm going to. get better at this. And then there are the rest of us who. are like, I don't know how these people. do it. Like I get up today and I. struggle. I use a lot of willpower. I. try to create habits. You know, I'm. trying to be like these people who are. productive. But my default state, if you. let me do what I want to do, I'm going. to do nothing. Now we we look at this and we're like,

how does this work? Are these people. fundamentally different? So trauma is. the big difference here. So let's understand when we're. developing as children, if we grow up in. a traumatic environment, what will. happen is there's actually something. called the loss of the future dimension. So I'll give you like an example of. this, right? So let's say I go to my. parents and I say, "Hey, I'd like to. have a birthday party. Can I invite my. friends over?". And then parents say, "Sure.". Next day parents are drunk. They get mad. at me. They're like, "No birthday. party." So what will happen if you look.

at traumatic upbringing is that children. can't plan for the future. Any kind of. future that any kind of kind of autonomy. that they express, uh an abusive parent will shut it down. Like you know, and this is highly. controlling parents, too. We see this so. much in like Asian and South Asian. cultures where parents are like, "You. got to do this and you got to do this. No drugs. No dating. You're going to. study. You're going to learn piano." So. we're actually doing this is like we see. so many gifted kids that stall later in.

life because in these upbringings we. remove the the ability for autonomy. When a child tries to express. themselves, we shut it down. The second thing that happens is trauma. is about surviving today. So I was. working with a patient who, you know, would be able to tell within. the first 60 seconds to 5 minutes when. their dad got home whether they were. going to get beaten today. And so what people when people grow up. in traumatic environments, it doesn't. have to be physical abuse. It can be. highly controlling. It can be even like.

children who are parentified is kind of. traumatic where you have a a a parent. who's very chronically ill and is. depending on the kid to take care of. everything, that's traumatic, too. Because then what happens is your brain. looks at your day, and there's no point. in planning for tomorrow. All of your. brain's resources are about surviving. today. How do I not get abused? How do I. make sure that my parents don't notice. me? Children who grow up in traumatic. environments learn to be invisible. And so then something very important. happens in the brain, where it stops.

planning for the future because any plan. for the future can change depending on. whether your parent is drunk or not. And then if I was going to have a. birthday party, I told all my friends, and it got canceled, now that hurts so. much. So what what happens when we get. traumatized is we go into survival mode. We go into protective mode. And this is. even mirrored like physiologically, where we have two states of the body. We. have our catabolic state, where we're. breaking things down, we're trying to. survive the moment, and we have our.

anabolic state, where when we are. building for the future. Mhm. So when I encounter a tiger and I get a. burst of cortisol, cortisol breaks down. my muscle tissue to provide me with. enough energy to survive. We are. sacrificing the future to plan to. survive the present. And that happens on. a physiological level, it happens on a. mental level. So when you grow up in a. traumatic environment where. you are punished for thinking about the. future, you can't plan for anything because your.

home environment is so chaotic, there's. no rules, no organization, and you're. focused on survival, that becomes baked. in. And what happens when these people. grow up is that they are bound by. external stimuli. If there is some kind. of pressure from the external. environment, then I can act, but I. cannot derive internal sense of. motivation at all. Because now that. there's an external deadline, I have to. survive that deadline. So they go into. this survival mode instead of this like. being able to look into the future mode.

And it's it's really crippling because. it's fundamentally like the part of. their brain that plans for the future. has been disabled. Permanently? No. That can be rewired. It's just been. disabled in this way. Right? So like. that's your default state. Then what we. have to do is like undo that. So does that mean that parents who give. their children more autonomy when. they're younger typically are better at. attacking life and parents who stifle. their kids autonomy end up playing in. goal?

Absolutely. So so we can look at. something called authoritative ver-. versus authoritarian parenting. Okay? So. there are two kinds of parenting that. people can do. One is where. I'm going to support my kid, but I'm. going to give them autonomy. I'm going. to give them structure and guardrails, but they can operate to a certain degree. independently. That leads to the best. outcomes. Versus parents who are highly. controlling. Parents who are highly. controlling, their kids have worse. outcomes in life. So even if they're successful in some.

way, right? And I was even on this track. where like when I was 9 years old like. my dad told me me and my brother, he's. like, "One of y'all is going to be a. lawyer, one of y'all is going to be a. doctor." Like there was no question. about it. I had to become a doctor. And then my. brother was older, he went to law. school, so I was like, I have to I have. to go to med school. And so what what happened is I struggled. a lot with autonomy when I was in. college and failed out and all that kind. of stuff. And I'll work with so many people like. in residency. I was running this program. where I did like, you know, wellness for. medical residents.

Surgical residents, emergency room. residents. And what I saw is that a lot. of these people have invested a lot of. this time into this dream, but they're. not happy. So now they're kind of just like living. on autopilot and they don't like know. what to do about it. They're unhappy, but now you feel stuck. You've committed. to this path. So how do we turn ourselves around if we. are one of those people who find. ourselves playing in goal in life? How. do we become an attacker? How do we. become autonomous and then a. self-starter like you described? Is. there a a system, a way, a process? Yeah, so I I I think um you.

So it's complicated, but I think we know. there are a couple of different steps. that are involved. So the first is you have to be safe. So. if you're in a position of life where. you are constantly stressed out, it. shuts off your capacity for. neuroplasticity. So the first thing that. I recommend to people is like, you know, if you're in a toxic relationship, if. you're in an abusive home, do whatever. you can to create some pocket of safety. in your life because the growth has to. come from there. So it's like super. basic stuff. Second thing that we have to do is learn.

how to regulate our emotions. So if we don't know, first of all, what. we're feeling, then our emotions will act in ways that. are very self-sabotaging. So we have to we have to decompress our. negative emotion because otherwise the. negative emotion will fuel things like. addiction. So if I don't if I don't have. a healthy way of processing my emotion, my brain, because it's trying to. survive, will start drinking alcohol. because that's the only thing that. works. So we have to develop some degree. of emotional regulation.

Now, this is the really cool thing. So. if you look at So Stephen, let's talk. about you for a second. Is that okay? No. I'm joking. So you're Are you a survivalist or you. like looking forward? I'm looking forward. How does that work. for you? How are you able to look forward? Like. what what's your inner experience? I've always looked forward. I've always. had to look forward. I've not really had. a choice in life, I don't think. I think. I was My parents were so absent that it. created an environment where I didn't.

have a choice. It's like if you want to. lunch money, it's it's not going to. appear out of anywhere. If you want to. eat today, it's not going to appear. Parents aren't home, so you have to go. figure stuff out. I had the same. external pressures of trying to fit in. at school or all these pressures that. anyone has, but I had an absence of. um. dictation. So I had to figure it out and. run experiments. So as an adult, I'm. still doing that now. Okay, that frightens me. So, um so, my guess is that if you try to.

sit still, you start to panic. Oh, I really struggle with stillness. Okay. Yeah. So, you have a different problem. DID YOU FIND OUT I WAS A PSYCHOPATH OR. SOMETHING? What have you figured out? No, I mean, so you can't be still, right? So, so So, this is trauma. Like, I mean, I can't diagnose you with. anything, but I want you This is. actually a great example. Because your productivity. is running away from something. Does. that make sense? Yeah, 100%. Right? It's crazy. Like, you're not. running towards something. You're not.

building something. I mean, you. practically you're building something. You're building something great. And I. see this so much. It's a concept that I. call toxic fuel. Right? Where like But, you're like, "Oh my god, unless I build. something." Cuz you're panicked. Like, if I if I don't do it for myself, no one. will do it for me. That's [ __ ] sad, bro. Is it? Yes. Right? So, like like you we're talking. about having kids one day. Like, do you. want your kid to be able to count on. you? Or do you want them to grow up in. an environment where like they can't. count on anyone? They have to do If they. want lunch money, they have to go out.

and get it. I would rather them be able to count on. me and our parents. You're getting. emotional. Yeah. Why? Um are you getting emotional? No, because I'm so I'm so used to it. I'm so accustomed to it. For me for me. there's no When you say it's sad, I'm. like, "Really?" It's just my life. It. was my life. You Do you know what I. mean? Now, this is a great I'm getting. emotional because you're getting. emotional. What do you mean? So, just because you don't feel it,

doesn't mean that it isn't activating. Okay. Right? So, I know you don't This is. normal for me. It's sad, and you're numb. Right? So, once again, you've been exposed to this. so many times. But, like you think like. that's why like how do I know Am I some. psychic where I know that okay, if you. try to sit still, you're to panic. Like. no, like I'm getting that from you. Do. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of it's logical, but like like you. know, you you say I'm looking forward. Just the way that you said it implies. for me like what is going on in your. mind. There's a desperation to your.

forward momentum. Yes. Right? That's not good, bro. Right? And but here's the problem is you. love it. You love it. Because if you didn't have it, where. would you be? 100%. I'm I completely agree with. everything you're saying. You're not answering the question. Oh, you want you want me to answer the. question. Where would I be? I want you to think about why it's hard. for you to answer the question. I didn't even hear the question. Okay. Um.

where would I be? That's interesting in and of itself. Yeah, I didn't even know it was a. question. So, where would I be if I. didn't have it? I don't I I don't know. And I think about this a lot. I think. about this all the time. Cuz you. sometimes you can like fantasize about. living a completely different life. And. I put myself there on the on the beach. or in Bali or something and I'm and I. just go like that. I would be so irritated. Like irritated. not as in like annoyed, irritated as in. as you said like not being able to sit. still. I would be so.

like I'd end up building a hut. Or I'd end up like you know? Yes, I I like when I have that fantasy. of like run away from my life and start. from zero on a beach somewhere, I go. I'll just find myself back here again. Because I'll do something on the hut. which will. I'll build a skyscraper on the hut or. something. This is. trauma's not really the right word, but. it is kind of the right word. So, this. is what I mean. So, you are controlled. by these impulses within you.

I would say yes. It's crazy, right? I always liken it to being driven and. dragged and I go I think I'm dragged a. little bit. Yeah. And I love your phrase toxic fuel. Right? Right? So so so your your all of. your growth and this is what happens is. this is what why men get so stuck in the. cycle because that's the only way we. know how to motivate ourselves. Right? It is the running away from the. panic, using the fear. And and maybe. this is a bit much, but I I I think. like, you know, I would bet money that.

there are there was a time in your life. where you were a no one and you were. like, "Fuck this. Never again.". And you're like, "I'm going to I'm going. to run away from like I'm never going to. do this again.". It was so incredibly painful. And then. that's what fuels you. And if you stop, I would bet money that the panic that. you feel is very is connected to that. moment in your life when you're like, "Never again.".

Who knows? Yes. Okay. No, yeah. I mean, I it's it's funny. because I think I was thinking as you. said it and I was I was reflecting on. this day when I was younger and I walked. this park. It was late at night. And. this kid called Sam, he. he started calling me the N-word. And in that moment, you've got I just I. don't know why I thought I always think. of this moment, but you've got this real. disconnection cuz I'm the only black kid. there anyway. This is like Devon in. 1990, whatever. Um and I. I thought we were so different. Our.

family was so different anyway. And just. that moment of feeling totally. disconnected cuz you're you don't look. like anyone else. You don't sound like. anyone else. You You're You're curly. hair. You're different color skin. And that just real sense of. disconnection. And. I think that kind of sort of permeated a. lot of my early upbringing was this. shame, this insecurity, this. disconnection. And then you compound. that with your parents being away. And. so, when I used to talk about my parents. not being in the house much when I was. like when I was younger, I still had. this disconnection and the shame. But.

now I had this big void of freedom to do. something about it. Which meant I could. start a business. I could sell some. stuff. And if I sell some stuff, I can. buy some shoes, and the shoes are going. to make me fit in. Because everyone else has those shoes. So, it was this kind of spiral. And as. you get older, I become I can become be. aware of it all I want. It doesn't mean. it's going to help necessarily, cuz. there's a difference obviously, as you. know, from being aware of something and. then being able to take control of the. thing. No, there isn't. This is how we start the conversation. No, there's not a difference. Oh, is there not? Was there a logical. process? Hold on. Hold on. Great. So, I'm not Can.

I ask Can we go a little bit further? 100% goes through me. So, you're so interesting. Right? So, you felt ashamed. You felt small. Yeah. You felt like you didn't have anyone's. respect. Right? And so, you've done something beautiful. When someone looks at you, what do they see now? The opposite. Yes. Tell me. What do they What does someone see now. when they look at me? Probably they see.

um. confidence. They probably see someone. who's quite secure in themselves. Absolutely. Right? So, you have a very. It's subtle, man. We're going to get so. subtle it may not make sense. So, there's so many layers of projecting. confidence. And you've tapped into an. authentic confidence. There's even a. subtle thing because you dress very. carefully. Right? You don't dress in a way that. normal people who are trying to impress. people dress. You want to be.

authentically impressive. Does that make. sense? Yeah. You're not going to You're not going to. take any short cuts to being impressive. You're going to be truly impressive. Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. But, here's the subtle thing. It's still. It's still there. The panic is still. there. You know why? Because you still. give a [ __ ] about being impressive. Mhm. Right? It's authentic impressive, sure. enough, but it's still important to be. impressive. And as long as that thing is there,

like the panic and that, that's all the. same thing. Mhm. It's 100% true and I I had an. author on my podcast who wrote a book. called Status, and that's when I had. this like brain wobble in my head. because you know I said I used to wear. Louis Vuitton before I was 25. I thought. that's when I gave up giving a [ __ ]. about like status and impression. And. then he was like, "No, if you think. about billionaires, they just end up. playing a different status game. The. logos get smaller because now Louis. Vuitton would make me look like an like. an idiot. It would actually be it would. actually lower your status." They just. they start playing games about boats.

Like how big is my boat? But they're. still playing the same game. And when he. said that I thought, "Shit, [ __ ]. hell, of course I'm still playing the. same old games in different ways.". Yeah yeah well so so I think you there's. a lot of authenticity and goodness here. So this is exactly how trauma works. where like we build something that is. good. Here's the key thing to understand. that yoga teaches us. No amount of fixing your life will make. that kid go away. Mhm. Right? So like when I work with people. who are I see you smiling. So like when. I work with people who have been.

traumatized, they will build amazing. lives, but they still carry that kid. with them. And the kid will come out at. times. There'll be particular times. where if I'm a little bit like if I like. treat you in the wrong way, like you'll. notice that you feel like that kid. again. When you're idle, you feel like. that kid again. So that psychological. those that neuronal wiring is there. So you can build all this wonderful. stuff and there's authenticity. It's not. like you're faking it. This is a really. common misconception that are you. faking? No, you're genuinely confident,

you're genuinely authentic. You can't. fake it and get to where you are. And at. the same time the wounds that we. experience leave scars. Yeah, 100%. And the real way to heal is to go back. to that moment and like deal with that. kid, right? You have to dismantle the. world view that you have, which is how. you heal trauma. Is when we get. traumatized, we adapt. In order to come out of this situation, I need to learn this particular thing.

So, some kids that I've worked with. adapt by becoming invisible. I That's. what I did. I got bullied a lot. So, what do I do? I learn how to be. invisible. Some people adapt by being successful. So, if I'm successful, it's an antidote. to my shame. I don't have to be ashamed. anymore if I'm successful. But, that old. injury is still there. Yeah. And this is why it's so complex. because. what you've just said is so unbelievably. true, but it's where the misconception. happens. Because I don't go home and I'm. not like insecure or I'm not.

unconfident. Like I'm I think like when. I'm on my own, I'm very, very okay with. who I am, with myself. I'm very, very. Like I feel. like the guy that you experience on. camera is very close to who I am when. I'm in the hotel room alone at night. However, it doesn't mean that I still don't have. those like childhood bruises and that. they can't be pressed by various things. And so, it's this sort of this one is. cuz you know, when we say these words. like. insecurity and shame, you think you'd.

think that like I walk into the the. green room over there and I'm like, "Oh." That's not not it's not my life. But, when I. where I know that there's still. something there is I go, "How that Why. are you still. driving like this. Exactly. when you are so well aware that it will. not lead to any more happiness in any. and any context. Like I'm so logically. aware that becoming more will not have. any impact on the things that matter. Yet, here I am still building businesses.

and you know, and this is the constant. thing I I battle with. So, I go, "Okay, well, there must be a force that you're. consciously unaware of that's making you. go, 'Go on. And go on.'". Exactly. Yeah. Right? So, let's understand a couple. things. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful, Stephen. Beautiful. So, a couple of. things to understand. We think about. healing as a. as one spectrum, right? So, if I'm at. -100, I can't also be at +100. Those two. things cancel out. That's not how it. works. So, if I give you a glass of. water, and then I piss in it, and then I.

add sugar, it doesn't remove the piss. These are both independent things. This is what tends to happen. This is. what we don't understand about trauma. You Removing the piss requires removing. the piss. No amount of sugar will take. it out of the drink. Okay? So, no amount of This is mistake. number one. No amount of building. something good will remove something. bad. Okay? So, healing and it's also like, you know, if I break a leg, no amount of. bench press will heal my leg. Like, I.

can build as much as I want to. I can. fix my hair. I can brush my teeth. But, the leg is broken. The leg is broken. Same is true of the mind. Okay? Second thing. is. what happens is we have like our. consciousness is divided. Now, we're. going to get kind of technical and off. the rails. So, we have all of these like. dormant pieces of our consciousness that. activate in certain situations. And all you have to do is pay attention. to yourself in. a 5-minute period and you'll see this. So, when I walk into a bathroom that. I've never used before,

then I start thinking about, okay, where's the flush? Where's the toilet? How do I use this toilet? You know, so. like, I'll activate dormant information. all the time. So, if someone asks me, "What's, you know, the quadratic. equation?" That information is there and. dormant in my mind, and it gets. activated. So, one of the biggest. mistakes we make about healing is we. look at what is active in our mind 90%. of the time, and we assume that the. injury is no longer there. That's not. the case. Does that make sense? 100%. Right? So, the the injury just goes. dormant. Then, there are certain things.

that happen that can trigger that. injury. That's what we call triggers, right? So, if I'm traumatized, if you. look at like PTSD, and I'm I've been. traumatized by, you know, a a bomb going. off, literally my brain has certain. circuits that scans my perceptual. environment and decides what to. activate. So, there are ways stillness makes you. feel small and [ __ ] you if you're ever. going to be small again. Never again, never again, never again. I would bet.

money that if you sit by yourself and. you're not occupied, right? That's why. you have to watch crime shows because if. you don't watch crime shows, you're. going to be still. And if you're still, that's unacceptable. Okay? Mhm. So, dormant things have to be healed. where they belong. You don't need to. worry, by the way, it's in your karma, it's going to get healed and it's. coming. Yeah, I was laughing cuz it's so true. Yeah. Just laughing at the fact that I when I. go to Bali, I end up That's like where I. end up writing a book and I'm like. And and people WOULD KILL FOR THAT,

RIGHT? So many people out there are. like, "Oh man, I would love to be you.". No, you guys don't want to be Steven. I. know you think you do, but. this is the crazy thing. We each as. human beings have our own journey. And. are you privileged and should you be. grateful and should people aspire to be. you? Absolutely, but they don't want to. be you. Like, your own problems are. enough. They don't need yours, too. Yeah, I hear you, man. So, now the question is how do we heal? So, I think the problem is like no amount of. fixing things over there is going to go. back to this. And this is where I we can. look at the science of of healing.

trauma. So, here are the steps. First thing is. safety so that we can get. neuroplasticity. Second thing is. emotional awareness and emotional. regulation. And this allows us for. number three, which is really important, which is identity. So, if we look at our human sense of. identity, how do you develop an. identity? So, if I were to ask you in. three sentences, Steven, who are you? My identity. Yeah, tell me who who's Steven. To myself or just to the world or is. that the same.

Tell me about who's Steven. I I'm an entrepreneur. I am a. I guess I'm a podcaster now. Um. and I am. I was going to say a Manchester United. fan. Okay. So, I think those are three. features, right? So, I've I read your. bio. So, the other thing that you tend. to do in your bio is there's a. narrative, right? You were a college. dropout. Yeah. Um you started a company. Yeah. Right? You talked about this Louis. Vuitton bag phase. And then there's the.

post Louis Vuitton bag phase. Yeah. And even before we had this podcast, you. were talking to me about the phases of. your life. Yeah. So, identity requi- requires a timeline. Okay. Now, the interesting thing is if we look. at the. formative moments of your life, they all. have emotion. Uh-huh. So, this is what's really important. If you have an identity. that is bad in any way, you can never. change that identity without emotions. Mhm. So, what what happens so my like when I.

tell my story, it's like I was a kid, 9. years old, I got put on these. expectations, dropped out of college, went to become a. monk, went to medical school, became a. doctor, now I started this whole helping. random people on the internet thing. So, each of those were emotional. experiences. So, who we are is a. narrative of our most emotional. experiences. And we see this in all of. our like superhero movies, right? Batman. had this tragic experience where his. parents were shot by the Joker, and then. he became something, right? They're all.

all these moments, these powerful. emotional moments. So, if your emotions. are dulled by drugs, by technology, by. pornography, by watching serial killer. shows, you will never change who you. are. It is impossible. The neuroscience. of your identity and development. requires emotional experience. Okay? So, with trauma, that's the next thing. that happens. Once we have access to. emotions, then we can become someone. else. Now, the problem with trauma is that. before we become someone else, the.

beliefs we have about ourselves. become our destiny. So, if I think to myself, I'm a loser. So, I I when I was interviewing for. residency, I went to an interview somewhere on the. West Coast. And the director of the. program called me in at the end of the. interview, and they're like, "We don't. understand why you're here." I was like, "What do you mean you don't understand. why I'm here?" And they're like, "Your. application is really good. You could end up at any program. in the country. Like, why did you pick. us?". And like, I was like, "I picked y'all.

because I liked the way that your. hospital works, and I like that the city. it's in, and I'm super into. complementary health." And they're like, "What What do you mean why am I here?". Right? But, the way that he approached. it with a lack of confidence, he's like, "Our program sucks." And they had some. problems at the program at the time, so. it kind of makes sense. But, this. becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I. go into a job interview, and I feel a lack of confidence, if I. believe I'm a loser, then I'm not going. to get the job. You used to go to clubs. and buy bottles of champagnes, and.

thought that you were a loser, didn't. end up where you wanted to go. So, this. is what a lot of people don't. understand. Everyone's focused on. productivity. But, the single most important thing. that will determine your future is your. sense of who you are. And that's not. like some oh, a spiritual get connected. with you. This is like [ __ ] science, right? If you believe you were a loser, the empathic circuits of other people's. brains will detect that in you, and they. will treat you like a loser. You carry who you are with you. That's.

why you get into failed relationship. number one, failed relationship number. two, failed relationship number three, until you changed. And when you change, your sense of identity changes, then. your future will change. The last thing to do. is on a more microscopic level, look at. these responses within yourself. So, you. asked me at the very beginning of the. podcast, and now we're coming full. circle. How do you start understanding. yourself? So, you look at the drives. within yourself, right? Why can't I sit.

still? And this is going to be so hard. for you because if I told you. This is kind of hilarious. If I told. you, "Steven, if you want to heal your. trauma, you need to go to Bali, you need. to sit on a beach, and you need to do. nothing." You will still turn that into. growth and progress because what you'll. say is, "Oh, this is what Dr. K told me. to heal my trauma. So now I'm doing even. more important work than a podcast for. 10 million people on the internet. Now. I'm doing the healing of my trauma, which is the goal." And you're still. running away from yourself. There's no.

way you can run away from it. Your mind will transform the very thing. that you do into the problem. And that's what trauma does. I'll give you a chance to respond cuz. I've been talking. I'm waiting for the solution, Dr. K. Yeah, so I mean I In your case, I I. think it's like sit. Just sit. And you have to be careful. because if your mind turns the sitting. into a goal that I have to achieve, "Oh, I need to sit, and that will be my. growth." No, no [ __ ] goal. Just sit.

Waste your time. What you need to learn. how to do is waste your time. Do nothing. Sit. Be with yourself. And. watch out for that mind. The second. thing is awareness, okay? So as you sit, you will notice all of these things come. up. So this is like uh you wanted to. You asked me a question at the. beginning, how do you start? So what I. would say is sit for 5 minutes, 15. minutes. Sometimes we'll tell people to. stare at a wall for an hour. And just look at what on Earth goes on.

inside you. You will discover that it is. a zoo of. thoughts, feelings, emotions, drives, panics, worries, distractions. Your. internal environment is such a mess. So what we need to do is just kind of. calm that stuff down by like just. letting it kind of run out of steam. So. this is a principle of the mind that if. we. If we feed our mind, it'll continue to. grow. But like what we need to do is. just let it run out of steam. So, just. sit and do nothing for a while. People.

don't realize. the part of our brain that. exerts willpower has something to do. with this part of our brain called the. anterior cingulate cortex. The anterior cingulate cortex is a piece. of where willpower comes from, but it is. also the part of our brain that monitors. conflict. So, willpower and monitoring a conflict. are actually, technically, the same. thing. The same part of the brain. activates. And if you guys, if you pay attention to.

your own internal experience, what. you'll realize is anytime you're using. willpower, there's an internal struggle. that you are paying attention to. It's. like, I don't want to order chicken, I. want to order fried chicken. So, there's a monitoring of the conflict. that goes on. That's anytime you're. exerting willpower, there's this thing. that this way and this thing this way, but you are aware of it. You can't exert. willpower if you're behaving. automatically, right? That's why it's so. easy to get lost in doom scrolling, because you're not even aware of what.

you're doing before and then 4 hours. have gone by and you're like, what? What. happened? You're not aware. So, this is. the crazy thing from a neuroscientific. perspective, and this is what the yogis. will teach as well, awareness is. willpower. Awareness is self-control. And I've worked with tons of addicts. They come up for air, and maybe you've. done this, and maybe people at home have. done this. You go on this binge and then. you come up for air and you're like, what have I been doing for a couple of. days? What have I been doing for a. couple of hours? Then you gain that.

awareness again. So, the more that you are aware in the. present moment, the more your problems. will literally melt away. It's like crazy. I don't quite know how it works, but. this is what yoga teaches you. That as. you are aware, as you are aware, as you. are aware, you stop rejecting things, you start accepting things, you focus on. the present. All the stuff that everyone. talks about is actually rooted in. awareness. And we live in a society. where I say, if I say you don't need. habits, you don't need willpower, you. don't need discipline, all you need is.

awareness, people. will reject me. That doesn't mean it isn't true. And the. more that you explore awareness, the. more you will realize like I used to. think it was like 50/50. I'm now at like. 90% of the problem is awareness. I know it's weird. No, but does that cuz we tend to look. for. solutions that involve action. Mhm? Like, you know, buy that thing, make. that list, go to that meeting, watch. that thing. It's all about action, action, action as a solution to our.

problems. So, I was expecting you to. tell me that the solution to everything. we've discussed here is like the. seven-step process of like. write this thing down, say this thing, and you know. Okay, so let's let's understand this, okay? You work really hard, Steven. Is it hard to work hard? Mhm, for me? Yeah. No. Okay. So, now we have to understand why is it. not hard for you to work hard?

It's. Why is it not hard for me to work hard? Because it feels good to work hard. Absolutely. So, your problem See, this is the whole. problem that everyone makes. So, Steven, you started company when? Uh. first one I was very young, but we won't. count that cuz I didn't register the. company. So, the first one that was. registered would have been when I was. 18. Okay. And you've started how many. companies or been involved in how many. companies? 10 20 10 20, yeah. Okay. And made like millions and. millions of dollars and stuff. Yeah,

right? Started a podcast. You've got how. many millions of subscribers now? Mhm, across the platforms, maybe 10. million. I don't. Okay, cool. Right? So, like this is a. lot of work. And everyone's like, "Oh my god, I want. to be like Steven." But the whole thing. is it's not hard for you. It's hard for you to not do it. So, this is what I'm saying. You don't. need to focus on the action. It's the. internal thing that drives you like a. [ __ ] slave.

That is responsible for your success. If. someone else wants a fraction of what. you have, 10% of what you have, they. don't need to duplicate your actions. They need to duplicate what's going on. on the inside. This is exactly my point. They need your toxic fuel. Yeah. Toxic fuel is on the path to happiness. Right? Can be. Yeah, I mean. Cuz you're doing pretty well. Do you know what though? This is maybe I.

don't know if how this throws a spanner. in the works of this, but I've never. felt unhappy. Mhm. And and I've always struggled with When. I I said used to say to people and. because time is past now, it's sometimes. hard to know how you felt in the past, but I say to people that when I was 18. years old and I would just dropped out. of university and I was starting this. first business and my parents weren't. speaking to me. I was poor and all these. things. I was shoplifting food. I was as. happy then as I am now. And like when I say that to people, I. know it sounds like like motivational.

[ __ ] or something, but in that. moment, I had forward motioned. I was. excited about life. I thought that I was. everything that in my objective reality. was just a stepping stone to becoming. And I was so I was so excited or I was. so happy about life. And I feel the same. now. Yeah. So, despite everything we've discussed. um. I feel happy. When I'm alone, I'm happy. Yeah. And I and you know, that's um. Yeah. Yeah, great. So, so I think that makes a. lot of sense. Or am I bullshitting? But I don't.

No, you're not bullshitting. Yeah, I think I'm like. DOUBLE-GUESSING MYSELF NOW. NO, YOU'RE NOT BULLSHITTING. SO, let's. understand the subtlety here. Yeah. So, the stages of unhappiness to. happiness. There's unhappy in all. situations, unhappy in some situations, happy in some situations, Yeah. happy in most situations, and then. moksha enlightenment mukti is happiness. in all situations. Happiness that is. completely independent of your. circumstances. That's the stage that. you're at. Because we can make you unhappy very. very easily. Yeah, that's true.

Right? Yeah. So so in it kind of makes sense. This is. what happens is we start to craft a life. that makes us happy. That's the first. step. Totally good. But then what happens is that we are. still dependent on the external life for. our happiness. And that will never work. 100%. So what's this mukta you mentioned? Mukti is moksha enlightenment nirvana. all same thing. How do we get there? I how do you get there or someone else? Are you there?

No. How how do I get there? How does anyone get there? You. sit by yourself and don't do anything. For how long? No. Can't ask that question. Oh. So the moment that you ask that. question, there's a goal. There's a. future dimension. There's an objective. You have to exist without an objective. and that'll move you in the right. direction.

Just be. For no reason. For no purpose. Recognize. that all of this stuff this is going to. get kind of weird. No matter what you do in the world, you're still existing, right? So you. just need you need to remove all of the. stuff. and just exist. That's what moksha is. Pure existence. without attachment, without feeling, without thought, without goal, just. being. And the crazy thing is we're all.

doing this all the time. We're all. existing all the time. I hear this loud voice from all the. high performing individuals that listen. to my show shouting and it's also coming. from my brain as well which is. Dr. K, if I take this advice and if I. just sit how am I going to pay the bills. and won't that cost me my motivation and. if it cost me my motivation then it will. cost me my my purpose this art business. I've started this cupcake shop I'm. running that's giving me so much. excitement in my life when I lose my. motivation if I just sit.

Yes and no. So the first thing we have. to understand is yes. So someone who's. enlightened is not compatible with a. regular life in some ways. So let's. understand that like that's what. happened to Buddha. He was a king. He was married, he had a kid, was loved, was powerful, and was like I'm done. Is that Buddha? How do we pronounce it. incorrectly? It's Buddha. Buddha. Same thing. Yeah. Gautam Buddha. Right? So it in essence it isn't. incompatible with life. The second thing is that once see you. have a motivation, right? But once you.

exist in the world and you are just. being without anything, you'll still. act. In fact, acting will become even. easier. And that's hard to understand because we. are so used to toxic fuel that we. it's kind of like. So if you have kids one day you'll. understand this. I can do the best I can. do is an analogy. So when a kid comes up to you. and is crying because oh like my you. know my doll has is gotten wet.

Okay? And the kid comes up to you. there's no like goal that you have in. your life and you're not like trying to. be a good dad. Like you're I don't know. if that makes sense. Like when a kid. when your kid walks up to you and. they're upset about something that's. irrelevant you just act in response to. what is necessary in the moment. You. don't get upset, you're not worried. about their growth, you're not worried. about traumatizing, you just respond. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah. And so the other thing is like if I'm. walking down the street and someone is. carrying groceries and I hold the door. open for them I just respond to the. environment.

So what actually happens the closer you. get to the state is you can absolutely. be productive. So, what I found is that. the closer I get to the state, the more. productive I am. But now what I'm doing is just. responding to the environment around me. I'm not driving anywhere. I'm not going. anywhere. I'm just. responding. And that's beautiful. It's. liberating. There's no goal. There's no. falling short of. There's no. achievement. There's just I'm going to. do what needs to be done in the moment.

If I'm sitting in the emergency room and. I'm on call and a patient walks in the. door, I'm going to take care of the. patient. If they don't walk in the door, I'm going to do something else. How is that different to reacting? Cuz. reacting sounds a little bit more. emotional, whereas you're saying. respond, it sounds like emotion has been. removed from the situation to some. degree. Uh so, in a sense it is react I'm. responding to the situation, but often. times when we react emotionally, we are. carrying something with us from the past. into the present moment. That will cause. you all kinds of problems. Right? So, if I have infidelity, I.

worked with a patient who had a problem. with infidelity in their partner, and. then when they're dating the next. person, their fears of infidelity from. the past become into the present. And. then they react to the situation. They. don't actually perfectly respond to the. situation. They color the situation with. their baggage. That's not clean responding. So, like when I am on call and my friend. tells me the night before, "Oh yeah, we. had zero patients. I slept all night.".

And then a patient walks in the door, and I think to myself, "Why am I so. unlucky?". The majority or even arguably all of our. unhappiness in life is because of what. we carry with us. So, how do we get to that place where we. would just respond? So, I think it's like we have to heal. that inner child and all that kind of. stuff. We have to remove all of our past. from our mind, and then we have to. remove all of the future from our mind. We have to strive for nothing and just. be what you are. Just be. It's like kind of hard to understand,

but you just got to do it. There's not. like more methodology is not going to. work. That's what's so confusing about it. It's like. you're I'm tell you're keep on asking me. questions. I've already given you the. answer. You just don't like it. No, no, no, because yeah, I just. sometimes it's good to hear. Yeah. the same thing again. But also also. because I know I'm asking these. questions in part because I know it's. obviously the logical question that. anyone who just heard you say this. revelation about responding is going to. go, "How?". Yeah, so so so what I would say is just.

sit down. Yeah. And pay attention to yourself. That's. it. That's it. I mean, you can do all. the stuff we've given you lots of. techniques over the course of the last. couple of hours, but like at the end of. the day just sit down and explore. yourself. Be with yourself. Impulses. come up and then ask yourself. So then. on a practical sense, you're going to. have drivers towards things and ask. yourself, "Why do I feel this way? Why. do I need to do this? Why is this easy. for me and why is this hard for me?". And the more that you explore that, the. more you will understand, and then the.

more neutral you will become. And when. you're fully neutral, then let me put it. to you this way. So if you don't care about what you eat, it's not like there's no suffering and. whatever you get, you'll be happy with, right? So it's like our caring that. causes the problem. So we need to move. towards this neutrality, and then. actions become easy. Because if I don't. care if I'm not attached to something, then I can study or I can play a video. game, makes no difference to me. Oh, do. you want to watch a comedy or a horror. movie? Makes no difference to me. Then.

life becomes fun. You can just enjoy. everything and there's nothing to worry. about. And I think it starts with just being. with yourself and understanding where. your internal drivers come from. Because. we don't get to choose the person that. we become. Our brain makes adaptations. every single day. You don't get to edit. what you learn. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So our problem in life is that we have. all of these learnings. We have this. instrument, this this thing that has. been cobbled together after some crappy.

experience and another crappy experience. and some positive experience. And you. have this internal schema of how to live. the world, but it wasn't crafted with. any intentionality. So, the first step is to be aware of. like what is this roadmap looking like? What is the blueprint? And the more that you understand this. stuff, the easier it will become. Would you recommend starting your day. with. a little gap for this? 100%. awareness practice. I think it's brilliant. My partner does that. She spends the. first sort of 20 minutes of the morning,

she just goes and sits in a room by. herself and does nothing. And I just. look at her and go, "What a psychopath.". Yeah, right? So, beginning of your day. or end of your day, sunset, su-. sunrise. And you can do a meditator practice. Meditator practices will get you here, too. Sometimes that's actually easier. because it gives your mind some kind of. goal to move towards. I'm going to try this. Okay. I'm going to try this and I'm going to. text you and let you know how I get on. I'm going to try in the mornings when I. wake up to just stay away from all. devices. and just.

sit. And I'll let you know how I get on. And. I'll be honest with you. Yeah, be honest with you. Yeah, I will be. And. Even if I can't do it, I'll be honest. with you. Yeah, and that's okay. So, the one thing. I would ask is that if you let me know. how it goes, it may not go well. You got to give me a chance to give you. a second thing to do. Okay. Why would you say that? Because I think we're asking too much of. you. Okay. You think I'm going to fail. Be honest. Yes, I think you're going to fail. But, I think the problem is that if I tell.

you you're going to fail, you're going. to try to succeed and we make a goal out. of it, so we've already failed. Like. So, so it's it's So, just give me a. second chance. I'm I'll figure We'll. trick You have We have to trick you into. doing it. We can't let you know that. we're doing it. Okay. Reminds me of what you were saying about. your your wife giving birth before we. started recording about lay on your. left, the kid likes it. Yeah, so the mind is so tricky, right? So the. mind will craft a goal for you out of. this. And if I tell you, "Steven, you. will fail." I'm not trying to manipulate. I'm worried that if I tell you you're.

going to fail, you're going to do it. It's It's so interesting what my mind. did there as well. And it's just a And. this is so icky, but I'm going to be. honest cuz it's just what's the point? This is called the diary of a CEO. Um. even when I thought about doing that, like I was like, "Okay, so sit in the. morning, spend 20 minutes um just being. And then do that try and do that, Steve, for like a week or 2 weeks. And then you. can come back on the podcast and tell. people about it." I'm like, "That's. [ __ ] You just made this about an. external thing again.". Good. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.

Brilliant. You know why? What's brilliant about that? Awareness. Exactly. Yeah. Change is happening. Change cannot. happen while you're blind. You cannot. good diagnosis precedes good treatment. So this is the other thing really. interesting, right? So one last thing, I. know we're running long. So this is a habit for you, right? Yeah. For a habit to be This is a very simple. technique to demolish any habit. A habit is automatic.

That's what makes it a habit. That's why. we love habits. Why is everyone so. obsessed with habits? Because if it's a. habit, then it happens automatically. If. it's a habit, I don't have to work hard. I want to program myself so I can be. lazy. So all you need to do to demolish a. habit is awareness. Because literally. the circuits involved in your brain are. completely different. The habit. circuitry in your brain is the. endocannabinoid system. Awareness of the. present moment is your anterior. cingulate cortex in your frontal lobes.

You cannot have a habit and exert. willpower at the same time. That's the. whole point of a habit. So as you become. aware, every time you catch it, Steven, it will chip away at it. It'll get cut. away 1% 1% 1% until it disappears. Catch it as many times as you can. Is this in part why it's useful to keep. a diary? Or to write sort of. It can It can be. Diaries have all kinds. of other mechanisms. So, the just a.

couple of quick ones. So, one is that. diaries slow down the pace of your. thinking because when you write, you. write slower than you think. So, you. like meditate on the thoughts a little. bit more. The second thing is that uh. when we think in our head, we're using. some circuits of the brain, but when we. write, we are activating our sensory. inputs. And our capacity to learn from our. sensory inputs versus thinking is. actually way higher. Right? Yeah. So, it's like activating a completely.

different part of the brain. We're. slowing down our thoughts. So, slowing. down thought and activating our sense. sensory inputs is part of why a diary is. useful. The other thing other third. thing with a diary being useful is that. when we think in our mind, we end up in a different place from when. we write. So, it's a lot easier in our mind to end. up with habitual patterns of thinking. In a diary, it's way harder to end up. with habitual thinking. So, you will. explore yourself more effectively using. a diary.

When I look at the first pages of my. diary, I find a guy that's constantly. and this is really where The Diary of a. CEO came to be. The start of the podcast. was me sharing my diary, the things I'd. written in my diary every day. Um. some of those early episodes that I made. were about the subject of purpose, which. is something I've heard you speak a lot. about. And that's kind of where I wanted. to end our conversation today is so many. people, and I know this from the. comments and DMs I get, are struggling. to find their purpose. Now, even as I. say that, I go, I've loaded the question. because I've said find, which which.

insinuates there's some kind of search, and purpose is a singular word, so it. indicates that there's one. But, you know what I'm saying. What is. that that people are looking for, and. why are they struggling to find it? This is very simple. You can look at any. human being on the planet, and you can. see that they all gravitate towards. something, which is internal peace. So, our hunger gives us a sense when we. eat, then we have internal peace. Thirst gives us a sense of wanting to. drink, and then we have internal peace.

When we want self-respect, the feeling. of a lack of self-respect is a lack of. internal peace. So, this is what's kind. of weird is that all of these we're. chasing all of these things outside of. us to create an internal state. Right? So, no matter what you do in life, at. some point your actions are going to. cross the barrier of the external to the. internal, and will make you feel a. certain way. Why do we get married? To. create a particular feeling. Why do we. give someone a kiss? To create a. particular feeling.

Right? So, everything we experience. within us. Now, why is it so hard for people So, we're all looking for inner peace. That's just it. Period. Right? And then the question becomes what makes. it hard? Because very simple, because. we're looking for it in the wrong place. So, we're all looking for it outside of. us. Right? So, we're looking, and then what. happens is if we look for inner peace. from the outside, so if I get inner. peace because people tell me, "Oh, look, you're so great.". Now, what happens is that peace lasts. only as long as people are saying it.

And the real reason we're screwed is. because the biological organism develops. a system of tolerance. So, right now. you've got 10 million followers, and. then you're going to need more, and then. you're going to need more, and then. you're going to need more. We're going. to need more. intense pornography, we're going to need. more intense video games, we're going to. need more exciting TV shows. So, the. nature of the human organism is to adapt. to its surroundings, which is why you. will never succeed.

if you are relying on the outside world. make you happy. Because you will just. want more and more and more. And what. helps you achieve happiness comes from. in here. That's why it's so hard for. everyone. So these kids asking saying that they. can't find their purpose. They're in. jobs they they don't like or they're you. know, embarking on their professional. journeys and they don't know what their. purpose is. What is it you say to them when they DM. you? Um so I I think. one thing I would say to them is purpose. is an attitude. It's not a thing.

Right? So like it take any action. What makes that action align with your. purpose? It's the attitude that you take. towards it. So if I give you this meditation. practice to sit and do nothing. You're like, yeah. It's part of my purpose and part of my. growth. You see what I mean? Like it's. all about the way that your mind purpose. is not purpose is an attitude. It's not. like a goal. So I'll even do this like so when I was. in in you know, in residency like.

sometimes I would have students who were. struggling. Right? And like since I'm a. nice guy, people would come to me and. they're like, hey, I'm struggling like I. don't want to learn this stuff and and. what we really do is we shift their. purpose by shifting their attitude. They're like, I'm not interested in. psychiatry. I'm like, fair enough. So. here's the thing you got to understand. for the rest of your life no matter what. kind of medicine you practice. You're going to get people who are. mentally ill and or addicted to things. Who are going to be personality. disorder. I can guarantee you that the. worst days of your life will have. nothing to do with surgery. They're.

going to have to do with having a. personality disordered sociopathic, narcissistic, borderline personality. disorder patient who is making a mess on. the floor. Nurses are going to be paging. you. No one is going to want to talk to. them. This is vitally important for you to. learn. No matter what you're interested in. So it's about the attitude. The other. thing that I'll do with med students is. they're like so worried about getting. honors. They're like, oh I got to get a. good grade. I got to This is Harvard, right? So these are like really gunning. medical students. And I was like, you. guys are missing the point. You're not. here to get honors. You're here to.

practice medicine. So, one day you're going to be on an. airplane and you're going to hear. the flight attendant pick up the phone. They're going to be like, "Is there a. doctor on the plane?". And then you don't get to say, "Oh, sorry. I It's not something I'm. interested in. I just got a pass. I. can't You don't get to say that." You're. here to learn how to save lives. Right? And so, that attitude, when it. sinks in with them, changes the way that. they learn. I don't care what your grade. is. It's not about the grade. It's about.

like we're trying to teach you medicine. because you're going to need it one day. A lot of people have seemingly found. their purpose, but then they get a. little bit of a quarter-life crisis. And. I've never really heard this term. quarter-life crisis before until you. started speaking about it. What is a. quarter-life crisis and what is actually. going on there? So, a quarter-life crisis is something. that we're seeing like more and more of. So, usually what happens is that See, early on you asked earlier if if we. have, you know, dreams, right? So, I. have a dream of something, but I don't.

really know what it is. So, I'm 15 years. old, I pick a dream, I start advancing. towards it. And our our when we form our life, what. we try to do is we we develop a. conception and then we live up to that. conception. So, I'm going to be a doctor. one day. And then the reality of our the. reality is very different from our. dreams. So, then what happens is we tend. to find ourselves in a place that we're. like not happy with. So, I see this a lot from like people. who are like, "Oh, I want to be like a. programmer." But then they're working in.

this environment where there's like, you. know, there's always like scope creep, there's like burn like the sprints are. very exhausting, it's burnout, like I'm. not happy here. So, the first stage of a quarter-life. crisis is feeling trapped. Now you've. invested all of this time and energy. into like, you know, medicine or being a. doctor and you spent years of or like. being a programmer, now you're trapped. in this situation because you've. invested so much time. The second thing that happens in a. quarter life crisis, so people are like,

this is what it it sounds like. So, I. wake up every day, I pack my lunch, I drive in traffic, I'm. at my job where I'm under appreciated, I'm not challenged, I drive home, I'm. supposed to take care of myself, so I'm. going to listen to Steven's podcast on. the way home, I'm going to work out, I'm. going to do laundry, I'm going to eat a. couple of chicken breasts, and then it's. time for sleep. And you do this for. about 2 years and you're like, is this. life? What else can I do? So, it starts. with a feeling of being trapped. Second. thing that happens is people mentally.

check out. So, you'll feel like I don't. I'm not passionate about my job. Now, this is where people make a big. mistake because if you look at the. research on quarter life crisis, what. they will try to do is check back in. They'll try to cultivate some sense of. joy or like, how do I get engaged in. life? But, this is what's really. interesting, is mentally checking out is. an important developmental step to. growth. So, if you don't check out of your. existing job or your existing.

relationship, there is no space in your. mind for a new one. So, we have to mentally check out. It's. actually part of the process. Then this is where things get really. interesting. If we look at the. successful navigation of a quarter life. crisis, we all feel trapped. Then we check out, we think this is a. bad thing. Then what gets really interesting is. that there's usually some kind of. intentional moving away. So, in my case, I literally like went to. India. So, we know that that human. beings need to create some amount of. psychological or physical space. I've.

had patients who have joined the. military, I've had patients who have. like driven cross country. You need. space, like physical space and mental. space away from what you're checked out. from. Then we get to something that's really. interesting. So, you asked this. question, how do you find purpose? Purpose is not something you find. It's. not like you're walking down the street. and like, "Oh." Or you're meditating and. it's like, "Ah, I have purpose.". Purpose is crafted. Right? So, once. we're mentally we mentally check out, that allows us to distance ourselves.

Because if we don't mentally check out. and we step away, we're going to feel. guilt. We're going to feel like, you. know, we have to check out. We have to. give up on it. Otherwise, we'll stay. stuck. Does that kind of make sense? So, then what we have to do is a period. of self-exploration and craftsmanship. So, then what we do is like discover, okay, who am I? What do I really want? We We connect with our internal selves. So, this is really important about a. quarter-life crisis. The first phase of. our life, we are living up to external. expectations. And it's not really about. what I want. I think I want to become a.

doctor, but what do I really know? I'm. not really listening to myself. I'm just. being programmed by my conditioning. So, we start out being very externally. focused, then we feel trapped, then we. check out, then we move away. Then we discover who we discover. You. don't discover, it's not there. You. craft who you are. You get in touch with. yourself. And then comes the last phase of the. quarter-life crisis, which is that you. craft an external world. based on your internal environment. So,

now your compass is dictating what you. do. You find a relationship that. resonates with you to begin with. And. so, in my case and your case, probably, we probably did this in some way. We. failed. We did something new. And then. we like figured out, okay, this is what. excites me. Right? So, at some point, growth excites you. So, now like this. endeavor is about growth. It's about. helping people. So, now you're crafting. your external life based on what you've. discovered about yourself internally.

And that's kind of the last phase. The problem that people run into is that. they don't realize that this sequence is. necessary and And have to do it in this. order. Yeah, I was thinking about so many of my. friends as you described this process. that have come to me for advice. recently. Um, these are friends who have. quit their. business. So, they've sold their. company. Yeah. And then they've taken, you know, 2. months off. They've got so agitated and. in two cases that I can describe of very. big companies that everyone listening.

will know, that friend has gone back to. the business. Absolutely. So, I mean, I I've had I can. think of two people as well who, you. know, one one person, you know, sold a. company at 29 for. ton of money. And then they were like. tried to find themselves for a year or. two and then went back to starting. companies. Yeah, right? But but my friends actually went back. into the same company. I've seen that, too. They like bought the company back or. went back in as CEO. Yeah, I've seen a uh someone bought a. company, didn't manage it properly, value declined, and then you buy it. back, you're net positive, and then you.

run it, and it goes well. My mentor said to me when I left my. first business, which um is what made. gave me sort of financial freedom, he. said to me when I called him, it was in. the middle of the pandemic, and I said, "I've sold the company now, and I'm I'm. out, and I'm sold my shares over the. market in a private transaction, and. it's the pandemic, like the world has. stopped, and you know what I'm like, so. I'm like, "What do I do now?" And he. said to me, it's my friend Shaq, Shaquille Khan, he said, "The hardest. thing in the world for you to do, and. the most important thing for you to do, is to do nothing.".

And he was like, "You just need to sit. And you need to do nothing." He goes, "Cuz you're going to get all these. urges, Steve, to go back and start a. similar business, the same business, um because you can, and you know you. can. But he goes, "The reason why you. were successful the first time round is. now kind of expired. Like you did that. So, the thing that's going to drive you. every day and give you that sense of. like feel motivation and purpose is. going to be something else, and that. you're going to need to create a space. for it to emerge.". And I say that to founders all the time. that like exit their businesses or leave. their companies is you have to basically.

do this painful process of like sitting. on your hands for like a year. and being patient and waiting. Yeah. And that's kind of what you were saying. You were saying about cultivating this. e- um this new life but from inside out, not from outside in. Cuz you get so many. offers. You get so many opportunities. and offers in that space. Um but those again aren't yours. You. didn't cultivate them. They just came to. you. So. Yeah. It's such a beautiful way to put. it. Like living your life from the. inside out as opposed to the outside in. And and that's that's like that's.

what people should do. That's what you help people do. And. that's what you've helped me do every. time we spoken. Every time we speak it's. it's on one hand it's so informative and. so. um. wise and so. unique because you're combining. disciplines and you're doing it in such. a wonderfully smooth, fluent, and. logical. way. My brain is struggles when I. anything gets a little bit too fluffy or. like airy-fairy. But as you speak you. weave these worlds together in such a. wonderful way. And at the other end it's.

really confronting. And I am someone. that likes the confrontation because you. know, I. Gives you an opportunity to grow. No, BECAUSE I JUST I WHAT WHAT WHAT AN. ABSOLUTE honor that I get to sit with. someone like you who's like super smart. and gone to Harvard and do all these. things. And I get to work through some. of the the things that I that I struggle. with. But also I also realize as um a. podcaster that it's the most. the most value that I think I can give. to the audience is like me being honest. about myself.

Yeah. That is the information that is in. greatest demand but in least supply in. the world. Is people doing what we just did. I You know what I mean? Does that make. sense? I I I It's it's it's it's a a brilliant. I mean I just I love the way that you. put thoughts together. Right? So I I. think that's correct. So I I think if we. look at the success of this podcast. your authenticity is such a huge part of. it. And also what's happening is we're. getting so much like derivative content. We're getting like five tips for this. and five tips for that and 10 techniques.

to do this. And and what what's missing. is like authenticity. I've thought about this so much, man. It's like, how do you ask Obviously, my. job is to ask questions, right? And the. longer I've done this podcast, what I've. come to realize is the best questions. are the ones that no one could give me. that are like deep in my heart somewhere. that I've would maybe been too scared to. like to say out loud. And when I get. closer to those questions, the. conversations are so much more valuable. for the audience. And I can rank the. conversations essentially based on how.

much. the questions came from my soul. And. then the like metric that I I might. measure um it based on is the amount of. people that message me and the length of. the message they send. Because if I ask questions from my soul, the messages that they send me get. exponentially longer. It It becomes like. they send me pages. when you know, these are my questions. If I make a conversation about the gut. microbiome, people might say, "Hey, I. love that podcast about the gut. microbiome. I'm eating leafy veg now.".

But when they come from my soul, Yeah. it's like the world gives me that back. if you know what I mean. Absolutely. And I I I think that's. that's what That's why I really love. doing this. It's a privilege for me, too. And I think it like this is a very. common issue and I think we've been kind. of skirting not skirting around we've. touched on this issue several times, but. you've asked me, "What do we do?" Right? What is the What is the answer? I think. the one thing I've learned for 10 years. of being a medical doctor. is. it's not about finding the right. answers, it's about asking the right.

questions. That is the methodology because an. answer is outside of you. It. theoretically applies to all people. But if you really want to be your best. self, that answer needs to be tailored to you, specifically to you. And that answer. what works for you, only you know. Right? I don't know what's going to work. for you or anyone else because I don't. have information about your internal. environment. So, the key is not about. finding the right answers, it's about.

asking the right questions so that you. can get the data within that applies to. you 100%. Why do we have so much advice on the. internet? Because none of it applies. 100% to your unique genetics, your. unique epigenetics, your experiences, your traumas, your dormant unconscious. So, that's what you need to do. is is develop a plan that is only going. to work for you. And that's not about an. answer, it's about a methodology. How do you think I could be a better.

podcaster? And I guess we have to define what. better means, but how do you think that. I could. think you can be a better podcaster. I. think you should stop trying. Okay. I think you should do exactly what you. are doing and recognize that. you. you are enough. So, just keep doing what you're doing. You shouldn't try to be better. This is. all a part of your journey. Mhm. I I don't think you No. I don't accept the question. I don't. think you can be better. I think the. concept of better is literally.

hypothetical. Does that make sense? Makes perfect sense. You just are. So, just be. Yeah. It's funny cuz the the more in my life. that I've. just been. um. the better everything has got and. including my romantic relationship with. my partner. It's just it's there's a. real correlation between just being and. I don't know, it seemingly things just. figuring themselves out. It kind of goes. back to what I was saying about like the. Louis Vuitton era of my life and then. the like post Louis Vuitton era. I had better results when I was just.

being. So, Exactly. And this podcast was based on that. It. was based on me just being um. which was scary. It was really scary at. the start. It was scary just talking. about these things publicly um at the. start, you know? Dr. K, we have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next. And the question that's been left for. you. is. what is your rich life? I guess the one that I've got. I mean that you know,

it doesn't matter what the adjective is. The only life I have is the one that. I've got. So, what is my rich life? What. is my poor life? What is my good life? What is my bad life? It's the one that I. have. And and I'll kind of leave with like one. last thought. So, I saw something really. interesting in a study about aging. So, you know, there's all this loneliness. epidemic going on. So, it's really. interesting cuz if you look at it. scientifically, logically, as we get older, our life gets. objectively worse. So, we lose friends. So, literally over.

time, the number of friends you have as. you get older, like they literally start. dying. Um we lose relationships. Our physical. body starts to break down. So, like our. life objectively by certain measures. gets worse. So, what's really interesting is that. you'd expect old people are like more. depressed because their life is. objectively worse. And sometimes they are, but there's one. variable that correlates with being. content in life versus being unhappy in. life. And that is how okay you are with a.

bitter sweet life. So, the more engaged with this concept. of something being bitter sweet. you are as you get older, the more. content you will be. So, I think my answer to that question. is like embracing the bitter sweetness. of life. Like. there's piss in there and there's sugar. And that's just what it is. Thank you so much, Dr. K. I really. appreciate it. You're a very special. human being and um I feel indebted to. you because you. you know, I wish I could speak to you. every day.

But this is why people need to go read. your books and follow your YouTube. channel because uh. in that regard we can. Um and I hope to. have many more conversations with you. about all of these things as I continue. on my journey towards I don't know where. the [ __ ] I'm going, but. but thank you so much. You're a really. really special human being. It's It's an honor to be here and. absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Steven. Every single time you eat, you have an.

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