Doctor Tim Spector: The Shocking New Truth About Weight Loss, Calories & Diets | E209

Exercise doesn't help weight loss. The reason exercise doesn't work is. because. Professor Tim Spector. He's an award-winning scientist. Best-selling author and medical. professor. And he is ranked in the top 100 of the. world's most cited scientist. We're going to talk about the future of. personalized nutrition. Many consider you to be the leading. expert on gut health and diet. What's. your view on the ketogenic diet? Virtually impossible. What about vitamins? Waste of money. What are the facts around fasting? Oh dear. Oh [ __ ] What do you mean "Oh.

dear"? The food industry wants you to focus on. calorie, fat content, and sugar so you. don't have to think about the quality of. the food. There's never been any long-term study. showing that calorie counting is an. effective way to lose weight and. maintain weight loss. This is why I want. people to think about food very. differently than we have done in the. past. So, what is the cost? Depression and anxiety is intricately. linked to the quality of your gut. microbes. These are microscopic bugs in.

our intestines. All of them are able to pump out. chemicals that are vital for our body. when they're fed the right foods. Reason we're in this state is we've. killed off a lot of our good bugs. I. think people don't think of all the. positive benefits, they don't think that. you need to build them up. God, it's so confusing. You know, when. you walk down the aisle in the. supermarket, everything is trying to. pretend that it's good. So, how do I. know what is good? You have to. Quick one. At the start of these.

episodes, I told you that 74% of people. who watch this channel frequently. haven't yet hit the subscribe button. And I told you that the bigger the. channel gets, the better the guests get. And hopefully, I've delivered upon that. for you. So, there's two things I wanted. to tell you. The first is, if you've. ever enjoyed this channel, could you do. me a favor and my team here a favor, which is hit that subscribe button. because it helps this channel more than. you know. And as I say, the bigger the. channel, the better the guests. But. also, we're approaching 1 million. subscribers. And when we hit 1 million. subscribers,

we've been working for many months to do. something very big. in which you're all invited to. I'll reveal that when we hit a million. subscribers. Tim, many consider you to be the. leading expert on topics relating to gut. health and diet and food, etc. But how. would you describe your own professional.

academic bio? What is that bio in your. own words? It's complicated. So, I've changed form over the years quite a. lot. and. I'm quite unusual in in in terms of. academic medics. who usually stick very strictly to one. specialty all their career and fear to. go anywhere else. So, I was at medical school, did the usual stuff, then wanted to be a. physician,

then did rheumatology. What's rheumatology? Bones and joints. Okay. So, that was my subspecialty, if you. like. Mhm. And. but I got interested in epidemiology, which is the study of. uh risk factors in populations. where you just look at thousands of. people rather than one patient. Really, I I switched again. to study because I I got. really interested in the idea that. identical twins should be the same.

They're clones, they've lived all their. lives together, all their genes are identical. What makes them different? Counter to what everyone thought, identical twins often die at different. times. They get different diseases. One. gets depression, one's fine. It's all. these differences. So, what that was my. sort of conundrum. What makes identical. twins different. when they have the same lot they've. lived the same lives? It was. only through this sort of search to find.

this out that I looked at the gut. microbes in in twins and found they were. different and that. really scientifically took me onto this. whole new path. From there, I made this. sort of leap into nutrition. to say, "Well, now we've discovered this. whole new science. All this stuff we got wrong about. nutrition suddenly makes sense. So, now. I would say I'm. you know, an epidemiologist. who's.

really. um specializing in in nutrition and gut. health and trying to change the way. people think about food. That was a brilliant summary of your. career and and academic background. Um. as a muggle like me that's really, you. know, new to many of these topics, what. I understand is. the study of epidemiology is the study. of the like genetic root causes of. disease. Not just genetic. So, it's any any root causes of disease, right? So, the people studying COVID yeah, were.

all epidemiologists tracking a disease, trying to work out who's getting it, when it's coming back, how common it is. Right. All these basic things in populations at. a at a sort of. big population level. Right, got you. You've also written 800. articles. More than 800 articles on this subject. matter. Um in 2014 you set up the British Gut. Microbiome Project. And you've written five books on these. subject matters. I mean, I've read two. of them that are sitting in front of me. here.

Um I'm really intrigued by by the. personal story as well, because writing. these books and doing all the work. you've done. is a lot. It's a lot of work. It. requires a lot of drive. I mean, this. particular book you you said it took. almost 6 years to finish. What is the personal drive behind that? What is driving you to pursue the this. subject matter? You know, I just love getting into a new. area, finding out that something that. everyone's been quoting for. decades.

is total BS. and was based on some tiny study of nine. people. It's like I'm a detective. And so I've always had this this quest. to sort of be this. uh obsessional detective, I think, going. into these areas. And at the same time, it's. that's coincided with, you know, various. events in my life as well that um. have probably pushed me in certain. directions more than others, you know, that I wouldn't have gone otherwise. What were those events in your life?

I guess, you know, I was a pretty lazy. um. student at school. Same. Might surprise some people. People. always assume if you're a professor and. you've made it, you were a swot at. school, but I did the absolute minimum. So, I scraped into medical school, scraped through the first. few years of medical school. I spent 1. year. proving you didn't have to go to any. lectures. and could still pass, uh which was a lot of work actually. At. the end, I realized it was harder. Then, of course, age 21, my father died.

um suddenly overnight with a heart. attack. Uh. no warning at all. I was off on a skiing. holiday with some friends. And I think in retrospect that. that event. uh. changed me and um. perhaps gave me, you know, a bit more. uh. direction and drive. than I would have had. I'm not quite. sure,

you know, how it would have turned out. if he hadn't died, um but to me. him dying at 57. suddenly like that um. made me think I I need to, you know, make more of my life. I could die early, too. This was something that. you know, I think spurred me on to. do all this kind of stuff that I didn't. need to do, but. I felt perhaps more. compulsion to do and maybe also got me. interested in this whole idea of. genetics to say, well, you know,

did he have rotten genes? Um. am I have I got the same genes? Am I. going to die in my 50s? So, I think that. looking back now, I think. that's. it's hard to be absolutely sure, but. that that seems a. a reasonable scenario. I read and I've heard from members of. your team that that left you with a. feeling as you've kind of said there. that you might also die young if it is a. genetic thing. Definitely, yes. No, I was I was telling. my kids, you know, this is this is it, you know, I've only I've only hit I was.

sort of half joking, but saying, well, you know, you know, my time's, you know, I've only got 7. years to go now, I've, you know, whatever it is. Um. You were saying that to your kids? Yes, you know, that's. to try and prepare them. I guess so, but it was my way of, you. know, I did it in a jokey way. It wasn't. like um. I was writing my will and saying, you. know, the candlesticks are here and the. everything else, but it was um. yeah, I used to make light of it, but. you know, underneath it, yes, I felt, well,

you know, I could go early, so I need to. get on with it, I think. And I was also. at that time uh. probably speed was sped up by. another personal incident. I had at that time. Which was a mini stroke. Yes, I would call it a mini stroke. It. It's a vascular occlusion, but I couldn't work for 3 months. I. couldn't read. And I got a bit depressed about that. So, those 3 months where you you can't.

read, um. I read that you were. the quote, I I went from being a sporty, fitter than average middle-aged man to a. pill-popping, depressed stroke victim. with high blood pressure. They said you were floored by this. experience and for 3 months you couldn't. work. From having a pretty fast-paced, frenetic life. to being bed-bound. And in those 3. months, you your focus on the microbiome. increases, right? Yes, I I was.

I was just finishing up the very last. bits of the the previous book, Identically Different, which is about. why twins were different. Right. And. as a sort of afterthought, I had added. one page about, well, actually the. microbiome could be. the key to this. What is the microbiome? It's the word we use for the community. of gut microbes. These are microscopic. bugs. in our intestines. And it it's.

a biome because it's like this jungle. community. It's a. lots of different species all together, thousands of them, that coexist in our. in our lower intestine, our colon. And. they. it's like. we've discovered in the last 10 years a. new organ in our bodies. If you put them all together, they weigh. about the same as our brain. Okay? So, it's that's mind-boggling, really, to think about all these bugs, which uh. individually are tiny, put them.

together, they actually, you know, it. weighs several pounds. So, you can either think of them as a as a. microbial garden, but increasingly I'm. shifting that towards thinking of them. as a an incredible pharmacy. So, all of them. are able to pump out chemicals. all the time that are vital for our. body. So, thousands of different chemicals are. pumped out. every minute by these these gut microbes. uh when they're fed the right foods. And.

these chemicals are key for our immune. system. Most of our immune system is actually in. our gut. We did most people don't know that. We. think it's, you know, under our armpits or somewhere, but. actually, um, the all the immune cells are actually. talking all the time to our gut. uh, microbes through these chemicals. And that our immune system, obviously, is crucial for our whole body and. fighting aging and cancer, COVID. infections, allergies, all these kind of. things. So,

then you've also got the microbes can. produce chemicals that affect the brain. and will make the difference between you. being happy or sad or. we know that they've they're vital in. depression. Important for regulating how much you. eat, your appetite, when you feel full. They. also provide key vitamins for you, all. the B vitamins and many other. components, neurochemicals like. serotonin that's key for the happiness.

and how antidepressants work are all. produced by your gut microbes. So, we're slowly learning that these guys. are absolutely crucial. to how our body responds to anything. coming into it, whether it's. painkillers, whether it's. antidepressants, whether it's chemicals. in the form of food. And. this is why, you know, I want people to. think about food very differently. than we have done in the past. The idea. the old idea that food is just calories,

macros, you know, it's fats and carbs. and proteins. Those four things, you know, that's. 100 years old mentality. But, key to it is this this core of our gut. health, which we've ignored. totally. And this was this big aha. moment for me after research for 10. years. What why would identical twins. twins be different? What could it be? And it turns out their. gut microbes are different.

That's the only thing I've ever found in. 30 years that's really different about. identical twins. And that explains why one gets cancer, the other one doesn't. Why. one gets an autoimmune disease or one's. depressed and one's happy. So, for me, that the twins were perfect. um. obvious way to show that how important. these these. microbes are for all of us. What are some of the the biggest myths. you encountered as you started.

researching the microbiome that most. people currently believe that I probably. sat here and I believe about how to keep. my um my gut healthy. What are some of. those key myths cuz I know you like. myth-busting? Well, I think most people believe that. probiotics in yogurt get killed by your. stomach acid. So, they don't work because your. everything gets killed off. That's a. common one I hear. But they don't. No, I mean, some get killed but. you're ingesting billions so.

always. enough get through to have an effect and. we know that probiotics do work. Although, the best probiotics are in. food rather than in capsules. And there's plenty of fermented foods. which is the same. Um I think. um. most people know very little about. microbes. They think that. most of them are harmful. So, oh, I've. you know, they they cultured this. microbe or they found a parasite. 50,000 people have now looked at their.

gut microbes in the US and the UK. In the UK, 24% have a parasite. And that parasite. is actually beneficial. It's called Blastocystis and it's. associated with good health, being thinner, having less internal fat, lower blood pressure. And you know, in the past we've try to. kill it off. And actually. the reason we're in this state is we've. killed off a lot of our good bugs. So, I think.

people need to realize that most of the. bugs in our in our system are trying to. help us. And. we've actually. lost half of the good ones compared to. if you go to. hunter-gatherers or you know, I spent. some time with the Hadza tribe in. Africa. And you know, they have twice the number. of species that we have. Because they don't pop antibiotics, they. don't have sterile foods, they have a. very wide range of um.

diverse plants, etc. So, I think people. uh. think that you know, their their gut. microbes are really only there to hurt. them whenever bad kebab or something. Uh they don't think of all the positive. benefits, they don't think that you need. to build them up. And that actually, you know, they're. like a. the more you've got. the better it is. How do I build them up? How do I become more like that tribe? You have to have a more diverse range of. plants. So,

we did a study a few years ago with the. British and American guts that showed. that if you can get up to 30 different. types of plant a week, you maximize your diversity of species. in your gut. And that's that diversity that we want. Remember, 30 plants, you look a bit shocked, but. that's um. it's. a plant is a nut, a seed, it's not just. kale. Um it's. a herb, it's a spice.

And. you know, things like coffee. are a plant to me. Um cuz it comes from. a fermented bean. Um so, it's that diversity, it's having. more fermented foods, it's. uh having a range of colors, it's. cutting out um. the ultra-processed chemicals as well, which. all that all the groups in the. population that have the best gut. microbes, they don't eat the. ultra-processed foods, they don't have.

antibiotics, they don't have this this. modern Western. lifestyle. You mentioned calories there as well, um. when you were talking about the. microbiome. One of my friends. is a prolific calorie counter. And you know, he eats a lot of Domino's. pizzas. He'll be He listens to this. podcast, so he's going to know exactly. He's going to know that I'm atting him. Um he eats Domino's pizzas all the time. He eats like a a real, you know, processed food diet, but then says to me. it's all about calorie counting.

Now, with all due respect, friend, um. he's never managed to. I shouldn't say that. But um but it's not necessarily work for. him in terms of the goal that he's set. himself. So, when I was reading about. your view on calorie counting in your. book Spoon-Fed, it was I screenshotted. it this morning and sent it to him. And. I sent I said, "You are a bullshitter.". That's what I said in the message. And we had a good laugh about it this. morning. But what is your view on. calorie counting and this idea that we. can, you know, weight loss or being.

healthy is just about having a calorie. deficit? It's complete nonsense. Uh thank you. I'll clip that and send it. to him. There's never been any long-term study. showing that calorie counting is an. effective way to lose weight and. maintain weight loss. after, you know, the first few weeks. So, yes, uh. very strict calorie counting, if you. deprive yourself for a few weeks, you. will lose some weight, but. even if you're successful, your body's.

uh evolutionary mechanisms will make you. hungry and hungrier every week you go by. where you're depriving yourself of. energy, your body will go into sort of. shut down mode, your metabolism slows. down, so you're not expending those. calories. And. inevitably, I'd say. more than 95% of people will go back to. their baseline, and many go above it. They sort of rebound back if they're. doing this this style of uh. calorie restriction.

Now, calorie counting's a part of that. So, people try and say, "Okay, I'm not going. to I'm not going on a dramatic diet, but. I'm going to just try and reduce by 10%. my calories in the day, which in the old. theory was supposed to make you lose. weight." Well, it's virtually impossible even. professionals to count calories. And. because. uh. they're not very accurate for a start. Everything on the packet, you have to. weigh everything. And in restaurants. now, we're supposed to have these.

calorie counts, they're plus or minus. about 30%. because portion size makes such a huge. difference to it that it's it and it's. been shown in the US to be a worthless. exercise anyway. So, you can't count them going in, you. can't really count your metabolism going. out, either. We're all incredibly. different. You know, your friend's probably been told 2,500. calories is what he's allowed. Mhm. Well, that's an average. Uh. but it doesn't mean it's relates to him.

My average is much lower when I tested. it. So, everyone is. an individual, and this is. another thing we need to move away from. this one-size-fits-all guidelines. But, I think more importantly is that. the whole calorie counting assumption. means that it doesn't matter what form. that calorie is, it has the same effect. on your body. Therefore, whether you're cutting out fat calories. or, carb calories or, you know, low-calorie. sodas or whatever it is, it's it's going.

to be fine. But, we now know that's not. true. Um. the and there's several science. experiments which now absolutely nail. that. One was. um. by in America where they gave people. identical meals um. for 2 weeks in a sort of enclosed. semi-prison. And one was homemade and one was. ultra-processed. Both identical. calories, macros the same. The group with the ultra-processed foods.

overate by. about 200 calories every day. They kept coming back to the buffet for. more. Okay? So. yes, the same calories but the effect on. the body meant they were hungrier. Why is that? We don't know for sure. It could be. that those chemicals in the. ultra-processed foods affect the gut. microbes. and they then send signals to the brain. saying, "Eat more. This isn't a natural, you know, this is a really weird. chemical. It's doing something weird to. me. I'm producing something weird in.

exchange.". It could be that they get absorbed much. quicker. So you get a big sugar rush. and. you know, the nutrients get in to your. body in a way faster than. they should do in nature. And so your brain doesn't have time to. say, "I'm full.". It normally takes 20 minutes or so to to. get that fullness. Um or you know, it. So the it could be the matrix of the. food, it could be the chemicals in the. food, it could be its effect on the gut. microbes. Um but it also could be.

things like your sugar spikes. So. in the ZOE Predict studies. where basically we've. given. now 50,000 people. um in the US and the UK the same foods. at the same time. same time of day. Everyone's got these. muffins. We show that. people um one in four people who have. these muffins and are wearing a. we wear glucose monitors which tells you. for 2 weeks every what's happening to. your glucose. One in four people get a. real sugar dip.

3 hours later. So this is where you get. your rising sugar, which is normal, and. then as it comes down, it goes below. baseline. But, only in one in four people. And when that happens, those people end. up. uh overeating in the next meal, and. during the day, they feel more tired, more hungry. That's this. the sort of 11:00 slump, if you like, if. you've had a carby breakfast. Some. people feel that, others don't. And. what's really interesting is that so,

one in four people eating an identical. muffin of identical calories will then. overeat by this, you know, another 10%. that day. So, you can see how that just blows the. calorie um idea out that the calories in. equals calories out, everything's the. same. And. and the and the third thing is that. ultra-processed food says it has the. calories that's equal to the whole. foods, but. often. they don't account for the fact that. it's ground up, it's highly refined.

And so, if you take my almonds or. something like this, they use might use. ground almonds. And you compare ground almonds to whole. almonds, there's perhaps 30% less. available calories in the whole almonds. than there is in the other one. So, the whole thing is a complete nonsense, and it's there. because the food industry wants you to. focus on the calorie, the fat content, sugar, so you don't have to think about.

the quality of the food. And it's something that they can control. very easily, get their profits higher, keep adding stuff. to the product that's synthetic, and we know that a lot of things they're. adding. are harmful for our gut microbes. So, that the artificial sweeteners. are harmful, the. the glues, they stick the foods. together, the emulsifiers. Some people. react quite a lot to those, and they. cause problems. So, the whole thing is. like this giant camouflage. And that's.

that's really one thing I'm, you know, it might be my number one bugbear is to. get people to see the light, stop obsessing about calories, and start. thinking about food much more as quality. and what it does to your body. Quality food. What is quality food in. your definition of the phrase? It's the opposite of ultra-processed. food, which is whole food, which is made. with um. from the original ingredients of plants,

mainly plant-based, but um it's not. exclusively, that um contains all the. nutrients that those those plants. produce without it being stripped away. or. uh. boiled up or highly pressurized, deformed, and so they have to add in. back. those nutrients. So, you know, it's things in their pure. form. So, it's. it's not it's seeds, it's it's grains. that haven't been ground up super.

finely. It's all the amazing plants and fruits. and vegetables that we've got. They. they're healthy foods, but, you know, it's it's not straightforward, yes, I've. got this list of 10 superfoods. It's it's understanding that many foods. that. uh you know, are healthy for us. Most of. them are. in their in their original form. Berries, nuts, um. virtually every vegetable. is healthy for us if it's in that.

original form. It's only because we've we had to learn. to preserve things, we had to. do trickery to. make, you know, margarines and things. that with chemistry that we moved away. from that. But, you know, going back, you know, olive oil, for example, is is a great. example of something that's they. vilified often because it has lots of. fats in it and you know suddenly. I was told men oh the Mediterranean diet. they have olive oil and everything it's. horrible it's all fatty.

Turns out that's that's a perfect you. know it comes from the olive. The good stuff extra virgin olive oil. has very little done to it. And that is a a good healthy quality. food. But. it can be refined you can take that and. you can keep refining it. Um you can. take corn on the cob as an example and. then you you know and then you've got I. don't know. uh. tortilla chips or something down the. other end is which bears or corn flakes.

which bears no resemblance. to the original and they're all versions. on a spectrum. God it's so confusing you know because. what you've said to me is. you know based on research and studies. but then when I go to a supermarket. labeling even I just think of corn. flakes I think I grew up thinking corn. flakes were healthy because it says corn. in the title. You know what I mean? And it's and when. you're trying to navigate I was just. thinking if I'm going down an aisle now. hearing what you've just said that that.

quality food is food that is not ultra. processed and kind of resembles its. original form. When you walk down the aisle in the. supermarket everything is trying to. pretend that it's good. So how do I know what is good? I mean I. can go to the vegetable aisle and I can. say okay that looks like a cabbage it. looks like no one's messed with that. There's been no study done on that to it. hasn't been through a laboratory but how. do I like I'm in an aisle tomorrow how. do I know what food is good and what is. not? Well you've said the first thing if it's. not in a package. um you're pretty sure it's good. Okay. So um. uh. if it's concealed in some package that's.

got you know happy children and and. signals of vitamins in it that should be. a a warning sign. Uh you know the more they have to. advertise the food and say what its. additives are and everything the more. you should be wary about it. The number. of ingredients is another pretty good. sign. So, once you get over 10. uh particularly if there's lots you've. never heard of, you wouldn't find in. your kitchen, you should also be wary. that that is ultra-processed food.

Anything that says low calorie, that. says means they've had to add in lots of. artificial sweeteners or. protein extracts or something else is. also a big. uh danger sign. Uh low in fat means. they've replaced the natural fat with. something else that's cheaper and. these are all. warning signs, you know, and you know, you take breakfast. cereals. I mean, I used to. I used to eat. lots of breakfast cereals. I was brought.

up on them, highly sugary stuff. And. then I thought I was being healthy when. I moved to mueslis and um posh uh posh. uh stuff. Uh. but. actually, when you still you know, that. appearance of healthiness, it's still. got lots of additives in it. It's still. got lots of sugar in it. It's just. and. those cereal packets have added vitamins. in it, but they're often in a very poor. form. Uh I did an experiment once where I um. took some.

corn flakes or Special K, I can't. remember, that said had added iron. And. if you mix it up, you can put a magnet. on it, you can get off the iron filings. They're so cheap. that um they're just added to. tick a box saying it has iron, but they. don't get into your body or do anything. So, anything that's got. these things added with this in it, low in this, is a sign that. they're obscuring the quality of the. product. So, it's. you know, but there's a lot of brain you.

know, we've had we've been brainwashed. for years and decades in this. And. you know, I was as well as a doctor. You know, I should know better. And yet I've completely changed my. sev-. two of my meals completely. So, I've. gone from having muesli with low-fat. milk and an orange juice and. uh a cup of tea. cuz I did, you know, I started doing. these tests with Zoe, I found out that. gave me a massive sugar spike.

And was a terrible way to start the day. and I got these, you know, dips at 11:00. to a. high full-fat yogurt, nuts, seeds, a few. berries. And. I never have orange juice. That's. on my That's a really unhealthy drink. for everybody. And. I have a lots of black coffee, which I. now know is good for me. So, that's totally different. I changed my. lunch. for at least 10, 15 years. Um when I got.

in the hos- I was having a hospital. lunch, which. used to be in the canteen, then it was. the Marks & Spencer's. Got a. healthy-looking sandwich with brown. bread, sweet corn, and tuna, and a smoothie in a little bottle. And. that gave me a massive sugar spike. And I wouldn't have known that. And I was told that should have been a. healthy thing to eat. So, you know, there's the general rules, but. also there are specific rules. And this.

whole idea of indivi- individuality is. coming in. So, it could be that you. could you might be fine on that. Don't know. Um I was very annoyed cuz. when I started, we were starting doing. this testing for Zoe, I had all these. spare kits and I gave my wife one as. well. And we'd sit down and. she's um. French Belgian and loves croissants. And. so, we'd have croissant each. Mine would. shoot up. She had no change at all in. her her her sugar, which was really.

annoying. Yeah. So, but it also brings brings home the fact. that, you know, it everyone loves simplistic rules. But you can only get so far. with them. You have to start. experimenting yourself and see what. works for you and not just take. everything for granted. And that's. really the. That's the whole essence of of really. you know, setting up this personalized nutrition. research in Zoe and everything else. But.

on top of this general advice about. changing a whole idea of food. I think. cuz I think they do go hand in hand that. if you realize all these individual. differences, you realize it's not as simple as. you've been told. It's not that fats are. evil. It's not that calories are bad, you know, it's. it's much more nuanced. You mentioned breakfast there. I heard. that you do some intermittent fasting. Intermittent fasting. I think I. pronounced that correctly. Intermittent. fasting. Yes, we'll just uh use AI to. swap that for my voice.

What is it's intermittent Let's just. call it fasting, okay? Just for people at home that can't say. it. Um. Fasting has become a really. popular thing over the last three or. four years. A lot of my friends talk. about it. Again, it's it's almost feels. like it's going into fad territory. again. But what is the. What are the facts around fasting. intermittently? Okay, it's. I guess it's been quite hot topic for. about 10 years now. But it's. Intermittent fasting is an umbrella term.

for all kinds of different fasting. And. you might remember the 5:2 style of. intermittent fasting was quite big about. 10 years ago. And. there were also these extended fasts. often used in America. People were doing. two or three-day uh fasts and. detoxifying. Oh gosh. That sort of stuff. So, you've got to realize you have to. specify what time what what we're. talking about. But I think the most. interesting type of fasting now is. what's called time restricted eating.

Time restricted eating. I can see that. TRE, okay? So, the idea is. you don't change what you eat, you just. change how you eat, and you change your. eating window. So, most people in in the. UK and US, they'll be eating for 14 or. 16 hours a day. That's me. Right? Lots of snacks, and extending. late night. And. what time restricted eating is, we're. trying to reduce that to something like.

10 hours. on average. Okay, there is there are. some more extreme ones, some milder. ones, but that seems to be about the. sweet spot that most people can manage. 10 hours, which means. you start eating at 11:00 and you finish. at 9:00. For example, or you might want to go. from 8:00 in the morning until 6:00 at. night. Or 7:00. I can't do my maths. Um. Now, there's actually science behind. this now, so there's plenty of studies. showing that.

not only in mice and rats, this helps. them their metabolism, their energy. management, but. there's some evidence it helps with. weight loss. to a small extent, but it's. improves your inflammation levels, and a. lot of people report energy and mood. improvements. We've just done a big study with the the. Zoe Health study, which is the the free. app, where we had 130,000 people sign up. to do this trial, if you like, where. they would do this for 2 weeks, and. amazingly, most people managed it.

And we did see improvements in mood and. energy. um just in that 2-week period. And. actually, hunger went down. weirdly. But a lot of this we've found is people. are actually snacking less. So, they weren't we weren't telling them to. do less. You just you can do whatever. you like in that time, but people were just paying more. attention, and not grabbing something to. eat just before they went to bed. Now, the science behind it is really. interesting because your body needs time. to recover. So, your cells.

we're programmed on the circadian rhythm. that is very much in in line with the. sun from, you know, when we were all in East Africa and it. was. um. everything was quite programmed. so that our body is in the state of work. during the the day, we eat, do all our. stuff, and then at night it recovers. As the stress hormones go down, then. your repair stuff comes out. So, cleans. up all the muck in our cells. But, we. now know that it's the same happening in. our guts. So, if you rest your gut for.

uh 14 hours, you give time for all the. other microbes to come out and act as a. repair team, like a cleaning force that. hoover up all the mess you've left. behind. They clean up nicely your gut. wall, and so it's not leaky, get rid of. inflammation, and this change, giving. them this break, really seems to have. these great benefits. So, I'm I was a real skeptic about about. this, and I did lots of fasting and. things for experiments with the books.

But, it I think the last 2 years I've. really been convinced that this is. something that that does work, and. is right for some people. But, importantly, it's not right for. everybody. And uh there is an. individuality. You may be a snacker that finds it very. hard to go long periods of time. without eating. Okay? I do know we've. got several people at Zoe who say, "Oh, this is terrible. You know, it's the. But, for me, you know, I suddenly. realize when I wake up in the morning,

I'm not starving. It's not the first thing that I I think. in my head, and you know, very easy to. wait till 11:00 to have something to. eat. And it's not a big deprivation, that's something you could carry on. the whole of your life, which I think is. what we're we're we're into here. So, I. think there's a lot. to be said for this, but I think people. need to personalize it. Again, I you know, people love a single. single black and white solution to all. their problems, but I'd say to everyone. try it. You may want to, you know, do do.

a sort of American style. eating really early and finishing early. Um you might be that kind of person. who's a sort of morning person, or you. might be someone that prefers the social. life of eating in the evening and um. skipping the morning. It's going to be. It's going to be. take quite a lot of discipline. discipline for me to stop having. chocolate at 2:00 a.m. So, could you. just summarize again time restricted. eating? The The The key benefits of it. are my microbiome will be healthier, gives my microbiome more time to clean.

up, which will have an impact. potentially on weight loss and overall. energy levels, etc., etc. Mood. Okay, cool. That's enough for me. I think. that's a convincing enough reason. And I. imagine there's also an impact on sleep. there cuz you know, me having chocolate. at 2:00 a.m. is probably not going to give um help me. have quality sleep at night. Absolutely. Yes, no, I think there is a. link. Um we're studying that. We don't. have any results from from that that. trial, but we are logging uh sleep.

quality as well. Uh but per- personally, I find I've when I've started to do it, I do sleep better. I did start to get. some reflux as well. So, a lot of people. suffer from um heartburn. Right. And. and that's again because you're eating. and and drinking alcohol quite late. They're not leaving enough time to go to. bed. That causes a sort of stress on your. body when it's supposed to be relaxing. So, I think yeah, everyone give that a, you know, give that a try and it you. know, it could be right for you. And it. just makes you think also.

you're just thinking about more what. you're eating, you know, to say, "Okay, let's give my body a rest." Just like. you would if you're doing an exercise. regime, whatever. It's just thinking. about eating in a different way other. than just fuel. What about vitamins? You know, I've I've got all these. vitamins by my bedside. Not by my bedside, by my by my bathroom. sink in my bedroom. Cuz, you know, I went I went to some. market and the lady there told me that. all these vitamins are important and. then I don't know, I might have seen an. ad on Facebook or something and I ended.

up buying more vitamins and I've I'm. like a collector of vitamins. You're not alone. I think 50% of the. British population have a regular. vitamin or supplement every day. And it's. massive industry. I read your book. So, I'm a bit rude about vitamins in. there. Please. Please be. So, I know and I it's the thing that. upsets people most. Um people say, "I don't I believe. everything else you say, but I don't. believe your chapter on on vitamins.". And I.

again, it's it's a bit like a religion, you know, popping a pill and hoping that. it's doing some good. All the evidence shows that. when you do a randomized control trial, these vitamins don't work. Unless you've got some really weird. disease or deficiency or for some reason. you can't eat a normal diet. But it's a. last resort for people who have terrible. diets. If you have a. a decent. varied diet with plenty of plants in it, uh you don't need.

vitamins at all. And I used to take them. and I don't take any now except uh the. occasional B12. because I um. I I've always been low in B12 and I have. hardly any meat. But apart from B12, all the evidence. points to these things being a complete. waste of money. You're telling me all those vitamins. I've swallowed over the last 10 years. have been. a.

the result of me being duped by the. vitamin industry and have no material. impact on my health. Yes. They might have had some harmful. effects like people taking calcium and. things like this. shown that if you take regular calcium. tablets, more likely to get heart. disease. You're joking. I've literally got a tub. of calcium tablets by my by my kitchen. sink as we speak. Yeah, well, there's calcium in nearly every plant. and things that we we normally break. down absorb in small amounts regularly. You take something like, uh, calcium.

supplement, you might be taking half a. gram of it. Our body isn't designed to break down. that huge slab of chemical, and so it. doesn't get distributed well, and. studies show that it gets deposited in. your arteries and and can harden them. up. So, there's no there's no evidence that. calcium helps people, doesn't help. broken bones, it doesn't help. osteoporosis, all the things that we. were told it did do. So, it all the evidence was out there, and.

you've got all these companies pushing. it. So, many of these things can be. counterproductive, but my main worry. about them is if people think. they can pop a pill, they don't have to. think about. proper food. Yeah. And therefore, everything can comes in a. bottle or a pill, they can go, you know, just have a junk food diet and be. healthy, and. that's so wrong, because, um, diet I. think is the most. as I said, the most important food. choice we make for our health, and to.

take stuff that doesn't work, that could. be counterproductive, and sometimes. harmful, is. is a daft delusion. I have been under a daft delusion. I've. got so many supplements upstairs. Well, they could have a placebo effect. You might feel better because you've. taken them, you know, you say, I feel like a healthy person because I. take them. I don't know whether I am a. healthy person, but I feel like one. When I do it, I do it, and it's really. uncomfortable because I'm taking. sometimes I'm taking like eight. different pills, like calcium and. potassium and whatever else, eem,

and when I'm doing it, even though it's. hard to swallow them and it tastes. rancid, I feel like I'm doing future. Steve a favor. Yeah. Well, there you go. But clearly I haven't been. get someone to make you some dummy ones. so there's got nothing harmful in it and. you can. lot cheaper. I'll give that a shot. Um. What about sugar? So I I was keto for. the last roughly the last 2 months. I. tried. the diet because I had a lot of good. things about the keto ketogenic diet as. it relates to an inflammation.

And I have to be honest, I lost about a. stone in weight fairly quickly. First. time I've really seen a huge dip in my. weight, but also not just that, my the. gut issues that I'd had seemed to to. to go. So I almost lived for the last. couple of years, specifically like after. the age of 25 for some reason, suddenly. foods that I thought had gluten in them. like white breads and. pastas. and even like soy sauce and things like. that were making me live in this. permanent state of like being bloated. and I'd go to the toilet and I didn't.

feel great. It was kind of this pain. throughout the day a couple of hours. after eating one of those foods. And. then I tried the ketogenic diet so I cut. out pretty much all of those things like. I didn't have any bread. most of the sort of processed bad carb I. didn't even know what I'm talking about. here so correct me, but I cut out what I. thought were the bad carbs that were. having a bad reaction on me and then I. cut out a lot of sugar like refined. sugars basically cut it completely out. and I ate meat, vegetables, berries and things like that. Felt fantastic. Lost a stone in weight.

Very very very lean. Body fat dropped. completely, slept well, high energy. Um what's your view on the ketogenic. diet? Well, your story is I mean you can take. two ways. One you could say you really. improved your diet cuz you had sounds. like you had a pretty shitty diet before. that, right? Well, yeah. Um so you know what I mean? So. anything could have been an an. improvement if someone says if you're. eating real foods, right? So. Yeah. Sounds like the keto you weren't having. keto out of a bottle or a plastic. I was having meals. I had someone. prepare them for me. Yeah.

Proper home cooked meals rather than. takeaways and. so so you're making the shift from. perhaps you know the average. UK diet which is high in refined carbs. which is you know probably had. fair bit of ultra-processed foods in. there as well to this other diet so I. would expect you to feel better. Um. To be a keto diet you've got to get to. set about 70% um fat right which. Yeah. which is really really hard for anyone.

to to sustain. It's virtually. impossible. That's why I said for the last 2 months. I'm no longer keep on the keto diet. So you know you've you've gone you so so. you have probably done a mild keto diet. Right. that didn't put you into ketosis but got. you off these high refined carbs. Yeah. So. but going back to the basic question um. keto diets do seem to work for people. with diabetes who are overweight as a. way of getting them off their. medications and sort of kick-starting.

them. into a better health pattern and there. are some people I think it it can work. for. Um. I think for as a sustainable diet I. don't think it makes any sense. I don't. think many people can still be on it a. year later if it's a true ketogenic. diet. Mhm. Um because. no studies have really shown that people. can sustain eating that level of fat and. and protein and virtually uh no carbs. That's all I ate for about 8 weeks.

Yeah but you were eating you were eating. plants as well. Um so I'd have like some plants. Wasn't just steak was it? It was I mean at one point it felt like. that. It was there was some plants in. there. There was sort of like lettuce. and broccolis and stuff like that. But I. was Googling everything to check if it. was keto friendly before I put it in my. mouth. So. yeah I mean so I think what interesting. is if you you went from that to a more. uh mixed healthy gut-friendly diet, you know, which includes fermented.

foods, small amounts of breads, grains, etc. Um I think you'd still find the. same benefits cuz you're shifting from. ultra, you know, cuz I would suspect that if you did the. Zoe test, for example, um you would have. a quite a big reaction to sugars. Mhm. And your fat control would be quite. good. So, it sounds like you tolerate. quite large amounts of fat without too. much problem. Whereas, the sugars would. spike like me, you get um a reaction,

you get hunger, you get, you know, these feelings of tiredness, etc. So, just by upping your fat levels, lowering. your refined carb levels, you might have. produced the same without doing that. extreme. idea. Because my problem with the keto. diets is ultimately it's restrictive. You're reducing the number of foods. you're thinking about. You're. uh. ultimately then harming your gut. microbes long-term. Because you're not. giving them the variety of different. plants if you're not careful. And that.

happens to a lot of people. They go down any of these slightly fatty. diets, and they end up with a much more. restrictive. um. you know, intakes than they would have. done, which long-term will cause some. problems for their immune health and. long-term health. So, that's why I'm. generally against these extreme diets of. any kind other than. if you are, you know, seriously ill. diabetic and you're overweight, it for 3 months it could be a really. good way to get you off your meds. Interesting.

Yeah, cuz I'm trying to I'm trying to. find Now, so I went from the keto diet. to the New York diet. Basically, I went. to New York for 2 weeks, and I just I. really [ __ ] up. Um but now I'm back. I'm trying to find the. nice middle ground, the sustainable. middle ground. That word sustainability. in my diet and and also my fitness has. been key to me. Um because if I can't. sustain it, there's no point doing it. cuz you end up yo-yoing afterwards. So, I went from the keto diet, as I said, to. the New York diet. And now I'm back in. in the in the UK, so. Go on the gut-friendly diet. Which is.

Please detail the gut-friendly diet. Just it's. you know, 30 different plants a week. Um lots of fermented foods. That's your yogurts, your kefirs, your. kombuchas. I don't know if you like kimchi, um. kraut. Uh. miso, koji, Japanese food. Eating the rainbow, so you've got plenty. of colors on your plate. Everything's. got. cuz that means they've. you got. plants there that have got these defense. chemicals. And they And we haven't.

talked about these, but these are the. polyphenols. that are in plants. that give them their bitter taste, but. also the bright colors that you get in. berries and you get in. bright-colored lettuce and cabbages. And. they are rocket fuel for your gut. microbes. So, the more you've got of. those, the healthier your gut, the more. you dampen down inflammation. So, really important to. as well as diversity, lots of color, and. lots of high polyphenol foods, things. you wouldn't have thought of healthy. So, dark chocolate. I know you like dark.

chocolate. Was it Well, I'm not sure. Is. it milk chocolate you have at home? It's Yeah, it's milk chocolate. Well, you need to change to dark. chocolate. My girlfriend says that. She's obsessed. with dark chocolate. Well, And she always tells me it's healthy. Take her lead. Slowly Slowly wean. yourself off the milk and get onto real. chocolate, okay? Which actually tastes. of. something really good rather than sugar. Isn't white chocolate the worst? Yes. Do you know how I know that? That's the. only thing I know about food. Um I went. and did a chocolate-making class. And at. the start of the class, the instructor. says, "Pour the sugar into" We had these big.

tubes. And she said, "Pour the sugar. into the tube." So, I like poured a bit. in. She was like, "No, no, no, no. Fill that tube with 60% sugar.". I was like, "What?" She was like, "Fill. the tube with" I was like, "Why?" She. goes, "That's white chocolate. It's 60%. sugar." Yeah. I pour this this sugar. into this tube and it fills it 60% and. then I put this little like oily liquid. in and she was mix it. and she was that's white chocolate, 60%. sugar. There's people right now that are. sat there eating it and realize that. they're giving themselves early onset. diabetes, but.

So, dark chocolate's a good example. Coffee we already mentioned. And if you. like coffee? I do. I well, I don't For me coffee's. more of a utility. I use it before I have these. conversations so I don't fall asleep. because I I'm very, you know, I've I've. never been good. Might have boring guest. Well, sometimes, but it's more so just. to try and keep my mind sharp and to. keep focused, but um I I read chapter 13. of your book about coffee and I've. always been a bit of a coffee skeptic. because I tend to have a belief that. everything in life comes with a cost. And no one I've sat here with has ever.

been able to tell me the cost of an. artificial boost in my focus, attention, energy. I feel like nothing's for free in life, you know? So, what is the cost. of coffee? Well, I think there's a variability. Some. people there is a big cost. They get. the shakes, they can't sleep, and it has other neurotoxic effects if. you have too much. So, I think it's all about dose. And this is. it is a drug that if you get the dose.

right. is very beneficial for you. If you get it wrong or you've got some. genetic problem you can't process it. right, it it it's a real it's it's a problem, but. some of the benefits I was talking about. are also there in decaffeinated coffee. So, it also has these cuz again, it's a. great example of how we always think of. coffee as caffeine. Mhm. Mhm. And yet if you do these. epidemiology studies, you know, these. big population ones, people who having regular decaf coffee.

also have. similar heart benefits. So, it's other. things in this fermented bean that are. helping us and I think this is just, you. know, it's a great lesson in moving away. from our reductionism. We always like to. think of, you know, one food is one vitamin or one chemical, and that's an easy way to think about. it. We can't comprehend they've got a. thousand different. uh ingredients. So, decaf coffee, but. yeah, well, you've got green tea um is.

is also pretty good. Um you know, there's many other. fermented foods, but um the polyphenols. are really good and important to realize. and in the book Food for Life, I go into. exactly that. It's a practical guide to. when you go into the supermarket and you. go to the aisle, say, "Gosh, I'm in the. vegetable aisle. Do I get my usual. iceberg lettuce. that. 90% of us do. uh cuz it lasts for 2 weeks or, you. know, longer than our prime ministers,

or do we. uh go for a slightly more expensive. loose leaf. rosso lolo with purple leaves that uh. has a thousand times more polyphenols? And so, you really shop on color. Yes, now I do. I had no idea about this. until doing it, but but also the fact. it's loose leafed means that those those. plants have had to survive in more. difficult conditions to fight off. predators and wind and everything else. So, they're tougher. That's why herbs and spices are also.

tough cuz they're the growing tips. of the plant. That's where you get all. the good bits. And so, it's a rethinking. all this idea about what's good about. food in this when you start thinking. about your gut and, you know, the sugars. that it releases, etc. So, um for you, yeah, I mean, if. I think as a general rule, if everybody. had to keep their gut microbes happy, they'd be on a a pretty healthy diet uh.

even before you get into. personalization. Now, chapter 13 of your book, we talked. about coffee there, is called coffee can. save your life. You mean that quite literally, don't. you? Yes. As an epidemiologist, if you drink three cups of coffee a day, you'll. less likely to die 10 years later. Jesus Christ. But there's also a link. between coffee, depression, and suicide, right? Well, there are lots of links.

Cuz I I was reading that in studies. people were less suicidal if they've. been drinking coffee. Um. I think. that I'm sure there is a study on that. In general, what I what I do when I look. at these is I don't take any one study. on its own. I will try to get. uh. look at all the literature and see how. many studies there are on that and is. there a. a confirmatory one that would make it. real or not. So, I've tried not to over.

claim. Yeah. Cuz if you look at you. know, you look at the Daily Mail or, you know, the general press in in the UK, they. will pick up on any one story and say. coffee gives you cancer, coffee does. this, coffee gives you dementia next. year, you know, it saves your life, it. does this. So, you can switch. But what I think people need to do is. you know, especially after COVID, is be. much more sort of selective about how. they see a study. It's epidemiology. You know, that it has. to have confirmatory data.

Mhm. Um so, I think yeah, coffee. we know it improves sports performance. by 1%, right? So, for most people, that doesn't really matter, right? You. know, 1%. Am I going to run faster on my. treadmill at the gym by 1%? No, but it it does give you a little bit. of focus and. uh for most people it it's it you know, it's a good drug that's found in food. and. I like coffee because also it helps. it's allowed in a fast. So, your. time-restricted eating,

you're allowed black coffee and black. tea. And it um cuz it doesn't cause a sugar. spike or anything else, but it's you. have to cut out the sugar. Quick one from our longest standing. sponsor here. I I can't tell you over the last I'd say. over the last really it's been about 2. and 1/2 years. It was really um. post-pandemic how much my health has. become such a huge priority in my life. Huel has been probably the most. important partner in my health journey. because. I've been in the boardrooms. I've their.

offices. tens and tens and tens and tens of. times. I've seen how they make their. decisions on nutrition, and that's why. it's such a wonderful thing to be able. to talk to this audience about a brand. and a product that is so unbelievably. linked to my values and the and the the. place I am in my life of valuing the. gym, exercise, movement, my mind, my. breathing, and all of those things, and. most importantly, my nutrition. That is. the role Huel Huel plays, and so every. time I get to read these ads, I do it. with such passion because I really. really believe every word I'm saying, and I absolutely love the brand. So, if.

you haven't already tried Huel and. you've been resistant to my my. pestering, then give it a go and let me. know how you get on. Quick one. Intel, one of our podcast. sponsors, and I want to talk to you for. a second about their built-for-business. vPro platform. In today's working world, the office is pretty much anywhere, and. Intel vPro means you can remotely. manage, repair, and protect devices. across your entire organization, no. matter how large or small, giving me and. my team peace of mind to work wherever. we choose to. For my IT team, whether on.

premise or via cloud, behind the. corporate firewall or not, Intel's vPro. comprehensive manageability has us. covered. This is something that is so. important to me. I you know, I'm a huge. believer in employee flexibility and. trust, so having features like this are. super helpful. So, to find out more, search intel.co.uk/vpro, and let me know how you get on. I feel like more and more people are. becoming gluten intolerant. I I myself one of them. I am a. self-diagnosed gluten intolerant.

I read chapter 16 of your book and you. think most of that is made up. Yes, um most people who think they're. gluten intolerant aren't when you test. them. Okay, so that's that's the fact. It. doesn't mean that. everyone's making it up. There some of. those will be real. But I think. gluten got this bad rap. um about 10 years ago and there's. we know that yes, 1% of the population. really do have a gluten problem. It's. called celiac disease.

and they'll be vomiting and have. terrible diarrhea with the smallest bit. of gluten. Then there's a whole other. group of people that believe they have. gluten intolerance. of which studies show about. 3/4 when they're tested with gluten are. fine. In a blind blinded way, if someone. slipped you a. a biscuit or something at you know, um. or pasta is often the the way to trick. people. And. I think many people.

of have. probably a more general irritable bowel. syndrome. that's that are blaming gluten because. it's one they're taking that one protein. that they know about from foods that. have thousands of them and saying, "This. is the problem.". Again, this reductionism. and it then they cut all everything out, but they might be cutting out things. that were. like the sandwich, for example, that was. causing me glucose spikes. So they might. feel better when they cut that out and. they then say, "Okay, I've cut out.

bread, therefore um. I'm not getting sugar spikes and. tiredness. That must have been the gluten.". Actually, it was nothing to do with. that. It's just. um. cheap bread. uh that has nothing to do with it. So, I. think often. people are. taking gluten as an excuse and sometimes. they do feel better when they cut out. all these foods cuz they're eating less. processed foods as a result of it. Not. always, but. it's something else.

in the bread or the pasta that. that they were eating too much or they. were. eating too fast or these things that I. think are important. So, I would urge. everyone to. you know, look again at whether it is. gluten or it is something else about. their food habits before that was bad. and reevaluate it and you know, build up. your plant. diversity and your gut microbes instead. Cuz the worry is that all these people. on on gluten, most of them have a rather.

restrictive diet. They get very worried. about new foods and that's like the. worst scenario cuz you end up. on a vicious circle where. you you get more and more nervous, so. you have a smaller and smaller. group of foods you're happy with. Yeah. Your microbes get um diminished and you. have much less flexibility to deal with. any new food that hits you. One of the um we've got a fitness group. among some of my friends. There's about. 10 of us in it. And um. we've been tracking how often we work. out and how frequently work out and the.

workouts that we do. And one of the things I have to say is. pretty much no one in the group has lost. any weight. We've been doing this for a. year. And uh. that kind of bucks what you would think. So, the only time that I lost weight was. actually when I went on the keto keto. diet. I went from 14 stone 8 to 13 stone. 8 in roughly in several weeks, but. exercise and exercising for almost. religiously for the last 2 and 1/2 years. doesn't really seem to impact my weight. at all. In a you know, in the way that the. fitness experts might tell me on. Instagram.

What's your stance on the role that. exercise play plays in weight loss? It has very little role in weight loss. All the studies such long-term studies. show. uh it doesn't help. weight loss. And it's been grossly exaggerated as an. easy fix for our obesity problem. Exercise doesn't help weight loss? No. All the studies show that. The only caveat to that is if you have. changed your diet, improved your diet, and you've lost some weight,

at. maintaining some exercise does help. prevent it going back up again. But, as. on its own, if you don't change your. diet, it's of no use. And that's. well known now by all the obesity. experts and all the studies. Does sugar make us fat? Is that the. culprit? Um. one of the main things that's. contributing to. No, again, that's that's reductionism. You know, we the. But, the reason I the reason exercise.

doesn't work, is it's important to. realize this, is because. we all know this that, you know, you you. go for a walk, build up hunger. before a meal, that's what your parents. told you, you know. And everything about. exercise is after it, your body slows. down, your your metabolism slows down, and it tries to regain. the energy that you've lost. That's just. our evolution. And so, that's why it's a. you're not going to it's great for your.

health. I'm I know, I exercise. Fantastic for your mood. Um it's great for your heart, anti-cancer, all kinds of things. We. should all do it. But, absolutely not if. your goal is weight loss. You have to do. same about changing your diet. And I. think that's that's the big. a huge myth. Particularly perpetuated by gyms and. fitness apps and everything else. And it. it is complete nonsense. I read that you um when you looked at. studies over 30 years, and you looked at. how many studies had been done on the.

relationship of exercise and weight. versus. things like sugar and weight, there was. 12 more 12 times more studies done on. the relationship of exercise and weight. versus sugar and weight. And why why is. that? Why is there less research done on the. latter? Um I think that's the influence of. governments and the food companies and. the drink companies. So, uh a lot of the exercise research done. in the last 20 years was sponsored.

by uh large corporations. who wanted to make this link between uh. exercise and weight loss so that they. could continue to sell sugary. ultra-processed foods and drinks. and just say it's either childhood. obesity is because we've we don't have. playgrounds and we don't uh encourage. this and that's why the Cokes and the. Pepsis are always there at the.

Olympic sponsoring Olympic events and. associating themselves with sport. And they gave. hundreds of millions to various. physiology departments, sports. departments, nutrition departments to do. research in this area. Basically, it was really hard to get. anyone to do research into. how sugary drinks. make you uh gain weight or cause. problems. because they the amount of money for. nutrition. has been abysmally poor, you know, in.

from from governments. And that's why, you know, we. the only the first ever study of. ultra-processed food in a controlled. trial was only about 3 years ago. And it's been around for you know, 30, 40 years. So, such is the power of that. lobby. that it. it doesn't. necessarily distort the research in a. sort of, you know, evil way, but they. point it to make sure that the. researchers are are working in an area. that they want. uh. people to work in and distracting them,

keeping them away from talking about. sugars or even artificial sweeteners, which in my view are nearly as bad cuz. they're sort of. you know, hidden. um. and deflecting us from the idea that. yes, giving kids sugary drinks or even. artificial sweet drinks is going to be. bad for them and and cause obesity. Wait, so I'm I've been I've cut my I cut. out sugary drinks. about a year ago. I still have the same brands, but I have. the. no sugar version.

Oh, dear. Oh, [ __ ] What do you mean oh, dear? All the All the. the summary of the trials shows that. if you take. young adults young adults and kids and. they were say on two cans of. you know, full sugar sodas and you change them to. the diet version, there's no real difference in in weight. or. metabolic. um changes in their blood. Um. you will go to the dentist less.

So, you don't get as many fillings. But. the And yet, you know, we you should be. gaining 300 calories, right? If you were. doing two cans a day. So, it doesn't work out. as it should do and that's because of. the extra These chemicals are not inert. So, the sweeteners. in kids, they change their their brains. to give them. they want more sweetness in their food, okay? So, it it could reflect your wish. for your. your late night milk chocolate, who.

knows? Um and it it makes it very difficult. train kids to have more bitter foods or. sour foods if they've got these. artificial sweeteners in their diet all. the time. But. they've now shown that all these. sweeteners actually affect your gut. microbes. So, even stevia, you know, these sort of. so-called healthy ones. have an effect on your gut microbes and. they're not inert. So, we know that. saccharin and sucralose also cause. spikes in your blood sugar.

Uh when I did it, you know, I have a. trace. They're not supposed to, but they they. actually do things they're not supposed. to. So, we know very little about these. these products. And. my view is that they are harmful, probably not as bad as having the sugar. But. they are absolutely not a health. drink, and we should be encouraging. people to have. you know, teas and kombuchas and. uh more more bitter tasting interesting. flavors and foods than just this ultra.

sweet uh. chemical concoctions. Is this this sugar conglomerate that. have been funding much of the research. that points towards um some of the. things you're talking about there? They're That's also the conglomerate. that wants us to believe the calories in. calories out approach because. if I just view every all foods as kind. of equal and on this sort of calorie. number, then I can drink some of the. sugary fizzy fizzy drinks and some of. the processed foods. As long as I keep. it within that sort of calorie deficit,

I'll be fine. And so, are they Is that. sugar conglomerate is the processed food. conglomerate. for the calorie model? Absolutely. They need that, right? They Absolutely. It's vital, you know. Zero calories or one calorie, you know, on the can. That's what you see. And you. know, you're fooling people into. thinking this is a a healthy drink and. oh, you know, if I used to have. full Coke or Pepsi and now I'm having. the diet version, I'm getting 300. calories less a day, I should lose. weight.

It's exactly what they've been doing, and. they're also desperate to show that. artificial sweeteners are s- really. healthy and they come down on anyone who. who tries to say that they're, you know, could be any way dangerous. And yet, they're not obliged to test them. So, none of it None of the chemicals. added. really go through rigorous testing. on how they affect our gut microbes. And. this is. uh this is you know, their testing. mechanisms haven't changed in 50 years.

The gut microbiome, um. the microbiome as an organ, one of the. things you talked about earlier was the. impact it has on mood. And you know, this podcast is was. started as kind of a business podcast. We have a lot of people that are. interested in. you know, being more productive, being. more successful, reaching for their. goals. How significant and how pertinent is the. the microbiome on my performance as an. entrepreneur, as a business person? What. do I need to know about the relationship. as it relates to my mood, my. performance, my mind? Well, we know more about mood than.

than anything else. Um and so we do know that depression and. anxiety is intricately linked to the. quality of your gut microbes. We know this from mouse studies where. they've. transplanted. uh. poo from anxious mice into sterile mice. and those new mice then become anxious. and depressed. Really? So you it it's a transmissible. condition. And if if you go back to me.

telling you that one of the chemicals. that our microbes produce is serotonin. Okay, so much so that sort of cuddle, you know, love. friendly, warm um. chemical that affects our brain that you. know, is the key to dopamine and. everything else that goes on in our. head. So. the levels of that are really important. for us brea- having the right. neurochemical balance in our head that. stops us getting very depressed or very. anxious.

So we know that you can transmit it. between animals. So when they say they take the the poo. out of one mouse, they put it inside its. gut, inside its stomach to give it the. same microbiome makeup inside its. stomach. Yes. And then that mouse will become. depressed and anxious. Yes. So a lot of the science behind. microbiome is based on. large-scale human studies where you've. just got um cross-sectional data or this. is associated with this, but you don't. know if it's cause or effect. And so there's this whole other group. that's been going on of of of projects.

for 30 years where they have these. sterile mice. who have no microbes and. you you create in a in a lab these other. microbes that you would make them. anxious. or they're genetically anxious, you look. at their microbes and you put. take their microbes and you put them. into the sterile mice and you can change. their mood and their. attention span and everything else about. that. So that that shows that these have. a direct effect rather than just being. secondary. And that it links to the human data that.

shows if you take a groups of depressed. or anxious people, you'll. virtually all of them will have a. deranged microbiomes. and be producing abnormal chemicals. And. there'll be now some recent studies. showing that. um compared to traditional. antidepressant medication. uh probiotics do. as well. uh in many of these studies if you give. a course of probiotic medication, but.

even more impressive is if you give them. a Mediterranean gut-friendly diet. you get actually better results um. with more remission than you do with. antidepressant medication. So it's one of the best examples of how. you know, feeding your your gut can. actually improve your mood and it's. particularly important because we're. seeing you know, an epidemic of anxiety. and depression. That's partly because of of not having. many good gut microbes to start with.

lots of junk food diets which make it. worse. And then of course, once you go. into that cycle. once you're depressed, you're not. thinking about food. The last thing you want to go out and. is, you know, oh I've got to go and get. my kimchi today. You know, you just want. it's just fuel. So. once you once you understand that, you. realize if you want to help someone. depression, you know, the first thing is. to not to put them straight onto an. antidepressant, which. in many cases doesn't work because of. this individuality as we're talking. about, which probably again related to.

microbes cuz they. break down the. the tablet into its active chemicals, but is to. make sure they've actually got. gut-friendly. diet. And so, this is a really exciting. area of research. You mentioned attention, the impact that the microbe. biome can have on attention. That's. really interesting to me cuz ADHD has. become a very. um. widely discussed. topic. Do you think there's a link between ADHD.

and the microbiome? Highly likely, yes. I mean, the. there's less data in it than there is in. depression anxiety. The studies are. smaller, but. those that I've seen all show again a. uh an abnormality in the gut microbiome. of ADHD kids. And um there've been a few studies. showing. that you can reverse it with um. poo transplants, which is another area that's uh. um.

was quite big a few years ago. It It's. not showing the same potential as it as. it did, but certainly. uh. affecting attention. uh and mood with gut microbes is. definitely on the cards. Uh these. studies need to be bigger, but there's. certainly preliminary evidence that. what's true for depression and anxiety. is also true for this whole spectrum of. of other conditions. Also, you know, that have been linked in. the past to diet and, you know, over sugar and E numbers and all these.

kind of things. So, we we've sort of known vaguely there's. an association, but I think people. haven't really pinpointed. um. the gut microbiome, which I think they. should. And so, absolutely sure that if you improve the. diet of many many of these kids with. ADHD, you you would improve their. symptoms. And there I know there's some. ongoing trials at the moment. It's really been startling over the last. couple of years how um. mental health is really. taking center stage in conversations, even conversations on this podcast. Most.

of them we discuss mental health issues. and things like anxiety and depression. And as we look around the world, the. stats around people that are being. prescribed antidepressant pills, like. they're called SSRIs, I believe, um is. rising. And I think it's doubled over the last. decade or so, with the US kind of. leading the way, and then other. countries like China and Japan. at the bottom of the pack. What's your overall view on. these these disorders, depression, mental health, anxiety? Um do you think.

it stems predominantly from the. microbiome? Is that your perspective now, from what. you've learned? No. I think they're they're. multifactorial. So, I think we can't. we can't just blame the gut microbiome. because. you do get. these conditions in people who are, you. know, otherwise healthy. Um. genetics plays a role, you know, I'm. going back to my old my old career. Um. lot of evidence of strong genetics in.

things like depression and anxiety. But. you can have the tendency to it, but you. need to be triggered into it. Uh you you need some environmental. event, and it could be that once your. gut microbes. get in such a bad, you know, gut health. is such a poor state, your diet is so. bad, that triggers this, and you just. lack those chemicals that tip you over. into it. So, that's why I think. if you if you link these epidemics which. we're going through at the moment, whether it's dementia, you know, uh.

depression, obesity, diabetes, what are. they all linked for? Increasing amounts. of ultra-processed foods in our diet. You know, we're the number one. country in Europe for this. Rates are. still going up. Kids have over 70% of their. food as ultra processed now. Horrendous. Adults, it's nearly, you know, between. 50 and 60% of our of our meals. So, I. think that's effect on the gut microbes. probably just tips this threshold.

in people who are susceptible. So, it. could be that I think that threshold is. going to vary genetically. Some people. are very resilient. Some people are. actually. quite susceptible. And that's my That's my view of it. Um. which probably isn't popular cuz it's. again, I make things more complicated. than. people like. But, you know, I think as a as a as a. scientist, I think most of these. diseases are built up of a different. number of risks.

But, unlike your genetics, you know, your gut health is something. you can do something about. And that's what you're doing with Zoe. Exactly. That's the whole idea behind. Zoe is. to empower people to change their health. by. individualizing. what they eat that suits their own. metabolism. What is Zoe if someone hasn't heard of. Zoe before? Uh Zoe is a. a personalized nutrition company that. I founded.

nearly 6 years ago with. uh. two. my co-founders who came to one of my uh. talks. I was talking about the diet myth. and the microbiome. And they came up to me and said, you. know, we think what you're doing is. really exciting. We'd We'd love to talk. about getting a company together to. personalize this. And. I I do get people asking me to do. startup companies. And I said, uh I'm not really interested in this. We. can spend several million on doing. research first. You know, I'm not.

interested in the usual lifestyle. company based on marketing. Mhm. And I thought I'd never see them again, but they came back 2 weeks later said, "Yes, we've got several million. We're. We're up and running." So, I was I was. stuck then. I couldn't say no. Um and basically that we got together. this massive study called the Predict. study which. uh looked at 1,000 people, mainly twins, gave them these identical meals, gave them these really fancy tech. glucose monitors, um.

we'd measuring blood spots with with. fat, looking at their microbes, logging. foods, seeing how they're getting on for. 2 weeks, and use that data as algorithms. to then. predict how they would people respond to. any food. And. then we met to develop a home test and. launched that initially in the in the US. and uh in the last uh year the UK. And we've now got 50,000 people who've. been this identical home test, which is. now a program.

that they then once you've got your. scores, personalized to you, you can look up any. food and it gives you a score from 0 to. 100. on. what that uh how that food is for you. based on your. sugar your glucose blood sugar profile, your fat profile, and your microbiome. So, it's pushing everyone. to have less sugar peaks, less fat. peaks, and better gut health. And so, it's changed, you know, so in a way. that's my muesli would give me a. terrible score. Uh my orange juice.

would, you know, a score of. zero. Um. but it's also made subtle changes. So, you know, I used to eat bananas and now. they they scored badly, so now I have. pears instead or apples. Um little minor shifts often, pushing. people. Then you and you have a virtual. nutritionist who helps you plan your. menus to get overall scores that will. push you more and more in this healthy. direction. So, you just start to. understand how what's best for your body.

and in a sustainable way. And we don't. talk about calories. It's like a. taboo word. And we're not after crash dieting or. anything else. It's like improving. yourself from the inside out. So, you And most people. get improved dramatic improvements. in their energy levels. Which we hadn't even thought about as. the reason. But people started telling. us, "I feel. much better because maybe we're cutting. out all these fat and sugar peaks that.

until the technology came along, no one. knew about that were were causing these. problems. So, it's going super well. We've got uh still a quarter of a. million people waiting for the product. in the UK on the wait list. And. what's really nice is because we've got. this. this commercial arm, it's allows us to. do these other. um. We have the Zoe Health study, which is a. free app, which um. uh. now is a moving that towards lifestyle. like this these fasting aids and things.

like this. We've got a neat podcast, the. Zoe uh Nutrition podcast, which is. getting the word out about our science, plus blogs and things. So, you know, it it's part of a whole package of of. things that we're doing to sort of. educate. people differently. And And as I said, make people think about food. in a very different way. And I think. it's super exciting cuz we're. you know, we've just raised some more. money. We've done some crowdfunding as. well, which gone amazingly well.

I saw it this morning. Yeah. valuation for a company. Yes, it is. Um. and you know, I think. 200 million? That's a big number. It is. And it But you know, I think we've just. got people's attention exactly the right. time. I agree. And the technology has just been exactly. right. So, often it's about timing. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I as I said to. you before we started recording, I've. had two of my guests come here and tell. me about Zoe individually. So, I think.

it was Davina McCall and Gabby Logan who. both mentioned it. And then I had I had. this email in my inbox um. from a friend of mine who connected me. to George. And then I started reading about some of. the work that you'd done and saw some of. your videos and that's why I was. compelled to reach out and have you um. on this podcast. But, the idea of. personalized health kind of debunks the. long-standing. narrative and myth that there's this one. perfect diet for all of us. There's this. one set of foods that we should all be. eating to be healthy. And this. personalized approach makes a lot more. sense. Um.

So, I think that's the kind of the. moment in time that you've arrived. perfectly in from a Zoe perspective is. this awakening to the perspective that. personalized individual diets are. um. the way forward? Yeah, and it Yeah, and of course COVID. didn't, you know, COVID was an amazing. time for apps. Yeah. And. people wanting to take. um. control. when they feel they had no control. So, I think. the idea that you give people an app and. they suddenly are empowered to do things.

is a very new idea, particularly in the. UK. People said, "No one over 60 is ever. going to do that." They told us it's. going to fail and it it was an. incredible success cuz if you give. people that interaction, that feeling that they are talking to. someone and they're getting information. back and it's a two-way process, it's a. completely different idea to the old way. of uh communicating with people. So, I. think it is uh a super exciting time for. for science. And you know, we've just. scratched the surface of what we can do. with this personalization because.

once we get to a million people, you. know, the levels of detail we can. provide back about. what you should be eating in the. mornings and the evening, you know, how hungry does this make this food make. you feel, you know, how do you stop you. individually stop getting those sugar. dips? How. Um you know, what combination of food. should you have? You know, how do you. react to protein? All the you know, what do you do to best sleep well? All. All these things which people want to. know.

are going to be possible once we get the. these huge numbers. This is all quite you know, it's all. quite We turn on the I'm going to have. this conversation with you then I'm. going to turn the TV or go on the. internet go on Instagram and all of the. the influencers there are going to be. telling me a bunch of stuff. A bunch of. fatty diets because they've all got. their own incentives and their own ways. of making money. If there was like one. principle I could take away from all of. your work which I know is almost an. impossible task today but if there was. one thing just just to focus on as I try. and navigate the bombardment of social.

media and advertising posts that I'm I'm. going to be um on the receiving end of. as I leave this conversation, what would. that kind of guiding principle be for me. not to forget? Pick changes that are going to last for. life. not as a quick fix. I think that's. that's what we're after and that's what. we want to try and instill is this. sustainable healthy way of eating. So that means not not feeling like I'm. not depriving myself and.

No. Okay. I think absolutely. the the the philosophy we have at Zoe is. that nothing is off the table. There's. no nothing's banned. White chocolate? Even white chocolate. You can be the. Milky Bar Kid, you know, you can you can. have it uh but realize that you know, it's that rare treat. Okay. And the more you just and so it doesn't. break everything and you have to you. know, start again. Uh it it's about making sure that the. rest of your week is full of good foods.

that give you a high score that can make. up for it. So we all going to you know, you know, the Christmas season everyone. goes crazy and overeats and stuff. As. long as you know, you've got this. long-term plan that your gut is healthy. and you're working and you're overall. these you're not going to get these. peaks over time for years. That's the. that's the goal. So absolutely it's. about enjoying food realizing that it's. incredibly important social event. It's.

why the Mediterranean countries probably. do so much better because it's so much. more part of family life and social life. in even in the elderly. Whether it's. with the glass of wine and it's just. taking more time enjoying the novelty of. foods and increasing our range of foods. So it's really broadening it. So I. really want everyone to love food again. and and not have all these hang-ups. about I can't have that I can't have. this. If you've got enough plants on. your plate basically you know, you can. eat anything. Tim, thank you. I feel like that's a. good place to end and I'm really going.

to go upstairs and reconsider that. vitamin stack that I have and also um. throw out all those zero calorie. sugar-free drinks that I thought were. good for me. Um you've given me a lot to. think about and I'm incredibly honored. to have have met you at this time in my. life because it's as I said it's very. relevant to me but also to have been. given the chance to read your books. You've got so many amazing books. Five. of them in total I believe. You're. working on a new one. Um my favorite was. these two. So the the Spoon Fed book and. also your most recent book which is Food.

for Life which is basically like a. glossary of food. Is that an accurate. state statement? It goes through all the. key main foods and talks about the role. they play in our health. Yes, I mean it's been called a food. bible or sort of a. it's a but it's it's a practical guide. to pretty much all the common foods so. you can. get what the latest science is telling. you about them all from a. ethical, health and environmental. perspective. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest asks a.

question for the next guest to not. knowing who they're asking it for. So um. the question that's been left for you. is. you seem nervous. I am, very nervous. Why Why do people get People always seem. to get nervous when I ask this question. versus all of my questions. Ask me any science question, I don't. mind. Well, it's you know. um the question that's been left for you. is. if you could say one thing.

to a family member you've lost. who would it be? What would you say and. why? Well, it's got to be to my dad. Um. I guess I'd say. and I'd probably say. I'm really sad we never got to talk. properly. Um. and I I think you'd be proud of me now.

And because. I as I've explained, he died. when I was 21. It's just the time. you're sort of coming out of. studentship, you're becoming more mature. at the time you could start to talk to. your parents, but you don't. So, I feel. that's my. um. missing part of my life, if you like, that um. I never got to discuss. um. anything meaningful with my father.

Why was that? I have that problem, too, now. Have that problem where I struggled to. talk to my. my father. Um. I don't know. I I think. in in hindsight, it's it's it's much. easier thing to say I should have done. this. Yeah, that's what I'm scared about. And and I think it could be that it's. built into us that, you know, we have a. very different relationship to our with. our our fathers. that makes it hard to.

to actually. talk to him at the same level or, you. know, not feel some sort of competition. or. critique. Um so, I. I I I think you're absolutely right that. if I was sat down here with my father, um it would be quite different to. wishing I had done. uh all those years ago. And I think it's. part of that grieving process, probably, that having lost someone, you always feel somehow responsible you. should have done something before.

Um I think that's that's part of it. And. many people have recurring dreams also. about. um cuz my father, you know, I never saw. him. He just I was just told he's dead. Came back from holiday, that was it. Go. to the funeral. And it it was a I. unreal. um. series of events for me. And so, for years I used to have these. dreams he'd so, you know, he'd been in. South America and suddenly appeared. again. I also had to disappear and I've.

come back. So, that was an interesting. um. idea going on in my brain that. in some ways he he wasn't really dead. and um you know, I'd get a chance to. talk to him again. So, it must have been. you know, a key part in. the the those subcon- subconscious bits. of my brain. That communication goes both ways. though, doesn't it? Because. they have to. also be. Yeah, in retrospect, he you know, he was. very much a you know,

a 1960s. dad. Uh. the you know, um. who wasn't really. supposed to deal with children or. anything else. His he went to work and. stayed in his study. And cuz he wasn't. sporty, he never did anything with me. with me. So, absolutely, yeah. It's um. but as I think you've talked about. before on this podcast, Uh, you know, children have a very different. perception. of that relationship. They feel it's um.

uh it's their fault in a way. Yeah. But uh yeah, he would. he was not a By modern standards, he. wouldn't have been seen as a great dad. Um. Tim, thank you. What a wonderful conversation. Really, really appreciate your time and thank. you for coming in sharing your wisdom. with me. Absolute pleasure. Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will. make your virtual meeting experiences, I.

think, 10 times better. As some of you may know by now, Blue. Jeans by Verizon offers seamless, high-quality video conferencing. But the. reason why I use Blue Jeans versus other. video conferencing tools is because of. immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected. to the employees or customers you're. trying to engage with. And now, they're. launching one of their biggest feature. enhancements to impact virtual events so. far called Blue Jeans Studio. I actually. used it the other day. I did an a. virtual event using the studio, which I. think about 700 of you came to. TV-level.

production quality, all done by one. person with very little technical. experience on a laptop. So, if you've. got an event coming up and you're. thinking about doing it virtually, check. out Blue Jeans Studio now. Let me know. what you think cuz I genuinely believe, I know this is an advert and I'm. supposed to say this, but I genuinely. believe it's the best tool I've seen for. doing really immersive, simple, but. high-quality production virtual events. Quick one. As you might know, Crafted. are one of the sponsors of this podcast, and Crafted are a jewelry brand, and. they make really meaningful pieces of.

jewelry. I think I've worn this piece. for almost a year. It hasn't broken, hasn't changed color cuz it's really, really good quality, and it costs. roughly 50 quid. I'm not the type of. person that has Rolexes or jewelry that. cost tens of thousands of pounds. I want. pieces that are reliable, that look. beautiful, and that hold meaning and. significance for me. And that's exactly. why I've worn Crafted for so long. And. when we had the conversation about them. sponsoring this podcast, I was so. unbelievably keen for them to do so. Check it out if you're a guy,

craftedlondon.com. And yeah, if you get any pieces of. Crafted, tag me and let me know what you. think.