Divorce Expert: Slippage Is Tearing Marriages Apart! If Kids Are Your Priority You’ll Divorce!

Every single marriage ends in death or. divorce, but it ends. But the majority. of them end because of slippage. And. what does slippage mean? Slippage is. James Ston is back. The world's leading divorce lawyer. with over two decades of experience. He. offers practical nononsense advice for. maintaining healthy relationships. We live in a society that presumes. marriage is a good idea. You're about to. do something incredibly dangerous that. fails so much of the time. And I think. it has almost nothing to do with love. But if you get married, here's what I.

will tell you. Have you talked about a. prenup? Getting married without one is a. fairly risky activity. But the truth is. is having a child with someone is the. most risky activity in relationships. There's so much stuff a person can do to. torture you if they have a kid with you. And what I'll tell you is the people who. are obsessed with their children stop. paying attention to their partner. Which. leads you right to my office. Okay. So, if you were to give me one. piece of advice to prevent me and my. partner ever ending up in your. consultation room, if there's a core message to my approach.

to relationships, it is that'd be the. only advice I'd ever give to anybody. James, if you think about the divorces. you've seen in court, was there ever a. case that broke your heart? Yeah. It was a case that I won that I. should have lost. I remember looking at. the judge and thinking like, you're. letting this happen. She's going to lose because she's poor. and she can't afford a lawyer. And he's. going to win because he can afford a. lawyer that knows how to put a document. into evidence. And there's something. really wrong about that.

[Music]. This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to the show. regularly haven't yet subscribe to the. show. So, could I ask you for a favor. before we start? If you like the show. and you like what we do here and you. want to support us, the free simple way. that you can do just that is by hitting. the subscribe button. And my commitment. to you is if you do that, then I'll do. everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better. for you every single week. We'll listen. to your feedback. We'll find the guests. that you want me to speak to and we'll.

continue to do what we do. Thank you so. much. James, our last conversation, I think, did. almost 10 million downloads and views. across platforms. And I can't imagine. the amount of messages you get on a. daily, weekly, monthly basis from people. that are interested in the subject of. divorce, but also the sort of. interconnected subjects of love and and. marriage and all of these things. When people contact you, what do they. typically say?

You're absolutely right. Right. I mean, the number of people that contacted me. after our conversation exponentially. increased. It also very much broadened. the pallet of things people contacted me. about. So, a lot of a lot of my prior. work, a lot of my writing prior to our. first conversation was very much tied to. just relationship issues, divorce. related issues. So, I would get a lot of. messages from people saying, "I'm going. through a terrible divorce. I'm dealing. with this situation. you know, even. though you can't represent me because. I'm in a different state or a different. country, could you give me some general.

advice? Um, so people would reach out. with very specific to my career topics. I got a lot of people talking to me. about the conversation we had about our. dogs and about loss and about the nature. of um you know aging and endings and. whether it's the ending of a marriage or. the ending of a dog's life or our own. lives and how the loss of our pets you. know brings us more sharply into focus.

about the mortality of everything around. us. So, um yeah, I mostly get people. saying, "Oh, you you gave voice to. something that I'd felt and um it it was. meaningful to me to do that." And I I. try to write people back and just say, you know, very briefly like, "I'm so. glad that something in my perspective. resonated with you.". If there was one message that you could. give to everyone that messages you. So,

one singular message. It was a broadcast. message and you had to send it to. everybody that's messaged you about all. of these interconnected subjects. But. you could only say a couple of. sentences. And you think it's the couple. of sentences that would most serve all. of them in one go regardless of what. their issues are because it's a. fundamental message about love and. marriage and divorce and all these. things. What would that message be? I mean, I've always said that I think. the core truth I've learned in my life. is that the hard thing to do and the. right thing to do are usually the same. thing. So, I would I would often.

challenge anybody who reaches out to me. about anything that that they're. struggling with, I would say to them. that what is the hard thing to do in. this situation because that's probably. the right thing to do. The the other thing I would say is that. although I really appreciate that. someone would reach out to me in the. hopes that I could give them some. answer, I I pretty strongly believe that. the only zen you find on mountain tops. is the zen you brought up there. And and. so I think a lot of a lot of the truth.

we know when we hear someone say it out. loud, it's it resonates in a way, but. it's because we knew it was true. We. already knew it was true. Maybe that. person gave voice to it. When you said the thing about Zen and. Mountaintops. Yeah. Can you say that again? And what did you. mean? Yeah. I I mean, you know, you can also. parse it as the only wisdom we find on. mountain tops is the wisdom that we. brought up there. You know, there's. this, you know, there's all of these. sort of Zen parables of the of the monk. who like in Batman Begins, you know,

sort of in his in his flip-flops and. robes sort of wanders up the mountain. through the cold trying to find the Zen. master at the top of the mountain who. has the wisdom that he can then share. with him. And and very often like that. wisdom is inside of all of us. that. wisdom is something that whether we want. to call it our gut, whether you want to. call it your soul, what whatever you. want to call it, that that the wisdom is. inside of you and that um we we we want. I think sometimes to have other people.

validate it for us or say it out loud. because perhaps we're not as articulate. about it, but to have someone give voice. to it gives us the ability to go, okay, okay, so it's not just me. And I think. that's that's what I mean when I say the. wisdom we find on mountain tops. I I. think we travel very very far to find a. joy and a wisdom that's inside all of. us. On that point, I as you were talking. about it and the reason I was so peeked. by it is I've got so many friends over. the years who have been struggling in.

relationships and in their life and in. their marriages who have thought that. the answer to all of those problems was. to basically get on a plane and move. country or city to go somewhere else. Yeah. And so when you were saying that I was. thinking I was thinking back to a. conversation I had with my friend many. years ago where he said you know I'm. going to move to Spain. and you know his life was in ruins. really at the time. His relation his. partner had just cheated on him and was. pregnant. Um and he thought moving to. Spain would solve the problems. And I. remember the conversation with him where. I said like by the way all the problems.

of buying a plane ticket with you. like they're going to Spain with you. Wherever you go you know there you are. And so I had a friend who was a uh a. hairdresser. and I remember once talking to him. It. was while he was cutting my hair and uh. we got on the topic of you know because. both of us are are someone that people. talk to. You know people talk to me. about their problems in their. relationship as a function of my work as. a divorce lawyer. And people sit with. their hair stylist and they'll talk. particularly women will talk for a long.

period of time about the things that are. stressing them out and upsetting them. And what he said to me is, you know, um, a lot of women in particular come in and. they say, I I want to cut I want to cut. it all off. I want to cut it all off. I. want to cut it very short. I want to cut. it very different. Like, I want just a. whole. And he said, you know, there was. a time early in his career where he. would give them what they were asking. for. So, if they came in with super long. hair and they said, "I want a little. short, very bob cut, you know, he would. do it." And then he would get a call. from them a few days or weeks later.

going, "Oh my god, when can you fix it? like what do we do? And he said what he. started to figure out is what they what. they're really saying is a very human. thing which is I don't want to be me. anymore. Like I don't want to be me. anymore. Like I can't do it. Like it's. all too heavy right now. Like can I stop. being me? Can I look different than me? Can I because maybe if I look different. than me I'll feel different than me and. maybe I'll do things differently than. the way I've been doing them. And I. think that's so human, you know, to to. say and that's the same thing about okay.

that's I'm just going to move. I'm going. to move. I'm going to like I'm I'm just. as guilty of this as anyone. When I've. had a really stressful, difficult week. carrying all of my clients chaos and. stress and there's just bombs falling. from the sky constantly in my line of. work. I go, "That's it. I quit. I'm. done. I'm done. I'm just going to do. media stuff. I'm just going to write. books. I'm not practicing law anymore. I'm never setting foot in a courtroom. again. Mic drop. I'm out." And the. reality is I'm tired. I'm just tired. like or okay if it's true that I'm at a.

place where transitioning it then just. cut back it's you don't have to cut all. your hair off like you and I said to my. my friend who's the hairdresser so now. what do you do you try to talk them out. of it and he said no he said I I kind of. play a trick he's like I I do something. a little different but not so different. and then I play up in my reaction to it. like oh I love it like this look at how. it's so nice I didn't take as much as. you But I think this is really and he. said and very often they're thrilled.

like they just go oh yeah this is great. because it was symbolic like it was a. symbolic thing for them that no I'm. going to do something different and I'm. going to look a little different when I. look in the mirror and when I look in. the mirror it's going to remind me to be. different but that's inside of you like. I I I mean for me. we wake up every single day and decide. to be who we are or to continue being. who we are. Like and and and one of the. reason why this is always so present in.

my mind is because as a divorce lawyer, people have this very clear image of who. they are and what their life's going to. be. And very intentionally, they went. and put on the white dress and the. tuxedo and they took the vows and they. were like, "This is the path. This is. the path. I'm taking this path and this. is who I am. I'm Bob's wife or I'm Jen's. husband and I'm going to be a mom or I'm. going to be a dad and I'm going to this. is what I'm going to And then it blows. up whether it's 5 years later, 10 years. later, 20 years later, when the kids go. off to college, whatever it might be.

And then they're what they're really. struggling with is wait, who am I? Who am I now? Like the barn's burn down. What? Like what do I do? Like what? I'm. not Bob's wife. Then what am I? You. know, I'm Bob's ex-wife. That's a. terrible thing to be. I don't want to be. defined by what I'm not anymore and used. to be, you know? So what do I who am I. now? And you know, watching people. over the course of their divorce. navigate that is one of the most.

inspirational things in the world. because people are so much stronger and. more resilient than they give themselves. credit for when they're in the crisis of. it. Was there ever a a particular case that. you think about that broke your heart? You're going to try to make me cry. again, Stephen. This feels unfair. No, it's interesting because I I didn't I. was our conversation last time was so. interesting because we spoke so matterof. fact about the the subject of love and. marriage and then for me to also learn.

at the same time that you are a deeply. emotional person. What is the one case? I I've had a few. I mean, one of them I. wrote about in my book, which was I. represented I it was a case that I won. that I should have lost. I was I. represented a pimp. That's what he did. for a living. And uh he owned a variety. of of illegal businesses. Uh he's in.

prison um for a long long time now. But. uh at the time he had uh very brutally. abused uh a woman who he had children. with. And we went to uh fam there was a. family court proceeding and the lawyer. on the other side of the of the case, the lawyer who represented his um his. co-parent, his victim if you will, um. was very inexperienced. She was an. assigned lawyer, so I was privately paid. as I am and she was assigned by the.

state. So she was getting, I think at. the time, $25 an hour, something like. that versus my 750 an hour. And she was. quite new as a lawyer. She was right out. of school. She wasn't quite sure, you. know, of of what to do and how to do it. And I was fairly experienced. And a. judge who was very impatient, who just. was in a bad mood that day. I don't know. what he had for breakfast or what it. was, but he was an older judge. He'd. been on the bench for probably too long. He retired a few years later. The key. piece of evidence they had was a.

photograph of the way that my client of. this woman's face after my client had. allegedly beat her up quite badly. And. getting a photograph into evidence is. very easy, but it requires a very. specific phrasing. So what you say is, "I'd like this to be marked for. identification." You mark the photo and. then you hand it to the witness or you. hand it to the court officer who hands. it to the witness and you say, "I'm. showing you what's been marked as. petitioners one for identification." Do. you recognize that? Yes. What do you.

recognize it to be? It's a photograph. Does that photograph fairly and. accurately depict your face after he. beat you up? Or does it accurately. reflect your face on the date you've. been discussing? Yes, your honor. I'd. like it put into evidence. That's it. It's easy. Does it fairly and accurately. depict? For whatever reason, most likely lack of. experience, opposing council, I guess, didn't know how to get a. photograph into evidence. Now normally.

in that situation a judge will be. helpful like they will just jump in and. say ma'am is this fairly but this judge. was just not in the mood and posing. councel said um I'd like this to be. marked and then she said could you hand. to the witness and she said what is that. a photo of so I did my job I said. objection she's asking about the. contents of a document not an evidence. which is my job. judge said sustain.

which means. which means my objection is correct. So. she said, "Uh, okay. Uh, I'm sorry. Uh, who took this photo?" And she said, "I I. I don't I don't know who took it." She. says, "Okay, well, what what is it a. photo of?" Stood up again. Objection, asking about the contents of a document, not an evidence. And I could see. opposing council getting flustered. because she didn't know the words. And. my internal dialogue.

at that moment was. just say it like just get it right. Like. just say just say fair does it fairly. inaccurately depict is it just say it. like and and and I I remember looking at. the judge and thinking like you're. letting this happen. You're letting this happen. Don't let. this happen. Like she's poor. She's poor. That's that's why she's. going to lose. She's going to lose because she's poor. and she can't afford a lawyer. And he's.

going to win because he can't afford a. lawyer that knows how to put a document. into evidence. And there's something. really wrong about that. And the judge didn't the judge just let. her drown. And she she asked three or. four more questions that were the wrong. questions. And then she just said, "Um, I I don't I don't know. I don't know. what to say. I'm sorry." And then she. just sat down and the case got. dismissed. And we walked out. And as we walked out, my client patted me on the back and he.

said, "You know, a good lawyer is better. than 20 stickup men.". And I remember thinking, "This is this is not a good day. It's. not a good day." And. that case that was a long time ago and. it's it still stayed with me because it. it was I did my job and I I you know I. represent my client but I also represent. the system and I don't always believe in.

my client but I have to believe in the. system and I have to believe that I am. not it's not my right to judge people's. case. It's the judge's right like like I. believe in this system. I believe in the. adversarial system, but watching. someone lose who shouldn't lose. and winning when you know you shouldn't. win does not feel good in this line of. work. Would you take that case again? Exact. same case, exact same person, exact same.

scenario. You're asked to go and do it. again tomorrow. Same opposition lawyer. I would. Yeah. Well, first of all, it's. many years later and I still know that. lawyer and she's actually become a. really good one and I'm really proud of. that. If she was equally inexperienced, the. same woman, the same circumstances, the. same victim, you know, if I knew it was going to go. that way, I probably I would turn it. down. I mean, I turned down a lot of. cases. I don't actually know if today I. would represent him anymore. It's a hard.

question for me to answer. I see. I. think you don't always you don't know in. the consultation. and like it's not like this guy came. into my office and said, "Yeah, I beat. this woman terribly. Will you retain will you represent me?". Like that's very different. No one's. ever done that in my in my office. Like. he came in and he said, "Yeah, she's. accusing me of all these horrible. things. I didn't do any of it.". But you knew he did. In my gut, I think I knew he did. Yeah.

the more I got to know him. I mean, in a. consultation, you don't know. Like, in a. job interview, you don't know what kind. of employee somebody's going to be. You. know, sitting across from someone in a. 1-hour consultation, most of the time, I'm talking telling them about their. rights and obligations and how the legal. process works. Like, I don't really get. to know them. But throughout the. process, I started to figure out like, yeah, there's this guy did this. You said you turned down a lot of cases, you know, these days. Yeah. What are the kind of cases that you. would absolutely turn down irrespective. of remuneration? I turn down cases where I feel like the.

person I mean a lot of times I turn down. cases that I don't think they need me. Like I don't think you need to bring a. gun to a knife fight. Like I think if. you can do it with a scalpel, don't use. a chainsaw. And I'm a chainsaw. So like. don't you don't need me. And so I I I. I'm very honest with people about you. don't need me. I'm not the right tool. for the task. But there are a lot of. cases I turn down that I think people. are using. They want to weaponize the. legal system to punish their ex for.

their transgressions, real and. perceived. Like they want to their. spouse was cheating on them and they. want to just litigate them into. submission. They want them force them to. spend a million dollars in council fees. by making ridiculous motions and by. minimizing, you know, their access to. the kids and making them fight for every. single hour of visitation they get with. the kids. Like I I'm not interested in. being a weapon that's used for. Yeah. for that purpose. Presumably sometimes your job is to get. custody of kids essentially all the.

time, which means that you're you're basically. taking children away from. a parent. You can look at it that way. It's a harsh way to say it, but. I've jokingly said that before cuz when. my kids were little and they would have. those like, you know, bring your dad to. school day. and you know, it was like, "Oh, this is. my dad. He's a firefighter. And this is. my dad. that he's a doctor. And I always. felt like my sons were like, "This is my. dad. He's the reason why your. firefighter dad only sees you on. alternate weekends, you know, and that. felt a little strange, you know, and.

there were times where actually I my. kids were in school with people whose. divorces I had I had handled um you. know, their their parents. But yeah, I I. I think um I do have a tremendous impact. on on people's access to their children, both positive and negative. Like I help. I help people get access to children. that's being withheld from them. I help. people um address parental alienation. and negative gatekeeping, the kinds of. things that are really becoming much. more insidious and prevalent in our. culture where where people are using.

children essentially as weapons against. their ex who they're mad at. I mean, look, breakups on any level are. difficult, you know, and and there's. usually hurt feelings and anger in a. breakup. And I don't think that's. abnormal. Like I think you lose someone. whether it's to death or whether it's to. divorce or just to split up. There's. some anger, you know, there's. resentment. Why don't you love me? Why. don't you love me the way I love you? Why don't you want to be with me. anymore? What does this say about me? Does this mean I'm a bad person because. you don't want to be with me anymore? Like this these are really universal. themes. Like there's almost no one in.

the world in any culture that if you go. to them breakups that they don't go, you. know, they get it. Like they get it. My friend's going through a breakup at. the moment. Um he's been with his. partner for many, many years. And I when. he sent me the voice note explaining. like we've been together eight years, we've kind of broken up four times, but. um my the he's being broken up with. So. he's the he's the sort of victim, per. se. And. which is the better one to be. really? Oh yeah. You want someone to break up with you? Oh, I mean well here's what I'll say cuz.

I' I'm have something of a PhD in this. one. I I have to tell you when someone. has been broken up with there's a. tremendous amount unless it was by some. patently awful behavior. you know, like. they got caught with the girlfriend or. the boyfriend red-handed, like then it's. no one's going to give you much. sympathy. But if someone dumps you, like it's not it's not me, it's you. Like they just dump you. There's a tremendous amount of sympathy. Like if somebody call if I called you. and I said, "Dude, I just got broken up.

with." You'd be like, "Oh me, come on, man. Let's let's go out. Let's tough, man. We've all been there. Like don't. tell you know what happened." But when. you break up with someone, there's only so much sympathy people. will give you because, you know, well, we broke up. If you're so upset about. it, get back. What did you do it for. then? Like you whereas sometimes, you. know, you're just the one who called it. like it's not it wasn't a happy. relationship. It wasn't like you're sad. that it had to end, you know, like I.

didn't want to break up. I wanted the. relationship to stay good and it didn't. So, one of us has to be the grown-up and. say, "Okay, this thing's over now." But. I think that person actually sometimes. deserves, you know, just as much. sympathy as someone who got dumped. because they're both someone who's. experiencing a loss of sorts, even if. it's a loss that it's, you know, I mean, it's a terrible metaphor. But if someone. said to you, "I have lung cancer." You. would go, "Oh my god, that's horrible.". Like, "Are you okay?" If someone said,

"Well, I was a smoker for 50 years and I. got lung cancer." It's not like YOU GO, WELL, WHAT DID YOU THINK? I MEAN now. it's of course you're still going to go. oh my god that's terri it's not like you. deserve it. It's I mean yes is it. SHOCKING IT'S NOT AS SHOCKING if you've. been smoking for 50 years but it's still. quite sad and it's still a journey this. person's going to have to go through. So. it's the same thing. It's like I I just. went through a breakup. Well who's who. picked who decided to break up with who. before I tell you if I feel bad for you. or not. Like I don't think that's a fair. way to approach a breakup. A lot of people want to own the they.

want to own it. They want to say that. they broke up with them, right? As well. because that. it's very popular. Well, there's something empowering about. that. Yeah. It was my decision. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or or the like, well, I'm glad they did because I I'll tell. you the truth, I was about to I was. about to break up with that person, you. know. Yeah. That's very common. I think. that's a pride thing, though, because, you know, there's something about the. rejection. of it's over, you know, a great example. of this for me, which is is very um it's. always vexed me professionally. So, a.

lot of people um I've handled a lot of. divorces where someone. uh breaks up with in a heterosexual. marriage because they are coming out as. gay or lesbian. Okay? So, they end the. relationship. So, in in the heterosexual. example, man and a woman are married to. each other for a period of time and the. man says, "I'm ending things with you. because I'm gay. I've realized that I'm. gay and I'd like to live my life as a. gay man.

my thinking as someone who's never had. that happen to me. My thinking, and. perhaps it's naive, like my experience. has taught me that maybe I'm just. strange, which I kind of knew, but this. is another example of it. If if a woman. broke up with me. and said, "I'm breaking up with you. because I'd like another man better than. you." That's very hard to swallow. It's. like I want one like you but better than. you. Whereas if she said I'm leaving you.

cuz I'd like to go be with a woman now. It's like well I mean I don't I don't. have that. Like I can't give you that. It's not like I want someone who's a. better dancer. I want someone who's. funnier. I want someone who has. different parts than you. And okay. I. mean that feels a little less like a. reject. You're not rejecting me. necessarily. You're rejecting my entire. sort of gender. you're you're basically. saying this isn't who I want. The. opposite actually happens. It it it. those are some of the most brutal and.

vitriolic awful divorces you could. possibly imagine. And they've actually. gotten worse over the span of my career. because over the 25 years span of my. career, when I started, when someone said, "Okay, my husband is. leaving because he's gay and now he's. going to live as a gay man." it was. actually okay to then say, "Yeah, and. he's a pervert and a horrible human. being." And because there was just such. a widespread homophobia at the time. I. mean, you know, Will and Grace, like.

Will couldn't even kiss his boyfriend on. TV. He couldn't really even have a. boyfriend. It was like so, you know, young young people today have no idea. how in my lifetime that that has changed. so much. Not to say there isn't still. homophobia, not that there's still not. heteronormativity, but the reality has. changed tremendously. the boots on the. ground reality. Now, if your spouse. leaves you for a if if I was married and. my spouse left me for a woman and I'm.

upset about it, I'm opening myself to an. accusation of being homophobic. And and the truth is like, no, whoever. she's leaving me for, it's really. upsetting. or whoever she's been. sleeping with, male, female, anything. It's upsetting because they're with. another person. So, I I think there is. in that phenomenon of people's breakups, the sense of like, well, I was going to. break up with them anyway, is like a. pride thing. I think I think there is a. tremendous amount of um of stuff that we.

carry around when it comes to those. breakups. I've always wondered what. heartbreak actually is because I I I. flip between thinking okay it's like you. mentioned the word rejection is it a. blow to our self-esteem is it the loss. of a future that we had like built in. our head. because yes. if you can understand what it is I was. thinking about how do I give my friend. advice on it then I then I know what the. advice should be or the support should. be because if it's a loss of this future. then okay I you know I know I'll say. this if it's his self-esteem okay I'll.

boost his self-esteem. Yeah. So, I think it's all of those. things, but I I think it's it's it's an. ending. And I think that endings are. hard. I think that saying to. what I always try to do when I have. friends going through a breakup and even. with clients is that, you know, every. beginning is born of some other. beginning's end. So, we talked about this the last time. we sat down together where I said that, you know, I only got Cabba because. Buster died, which is your dog's.

Yeah. my my dog that passed away 13 14. years ago and my dog that's now 13 years. old and and one one I only got one. because the other died and I love both. of those dogs so much but if I'm being. honest I guess I have to say I'm glad. that I lost Buster so that I could have. Cabba that that sounds terrible because. I don't mean it like oh I'm glad that he. but death like that ending was part of. life just and it made room for the. beginning of the next thing and what I.

always try to focus my clients on is. that this relationship is ending and. that's there's there has to be honoring. that, mourning that, feeling that, seeing it as the transition that it is, grieving the loss of it, but also. realizing that every ending is the. beginning of the next thing. And and. there has to be an ending for the next. thing to come and for the next beginning. to happen. And I have now watched that.

cycle for so thousands of clients over a. span of 25 years where where their life. is ending. Who they I was this person's. husband. I was this person's wife. I was. a dad who lived with his kids full-time. that had them every Thanksgiving. Not. every other Thanksgiving. That I had. them every Christmas Eve, not alternate. years. On in even years they're with me. In odd years they're with her. Like what. are you talking about? like this is who. I am. Who I'm dying, like who I am is.

dying. And I don't know who I'll be. next. And. when you're in that, right? And when. it's your first divorce, it's not mine, but it's yours. You know, it's very hard. to see like just just like when. someone dies, you know, when when Buster. died, I I said it last time. I I said, "I will never do this again. I will. never love anything like this ever. again. I'll never let my heart be broken.

like this again. I'll never open myself. up like this again. Ever. Never. This is. the worst pain. Why would I ever do. this? Loving anything is stupid. It's. insane. You're opening yourself up to. the inevitability of loss. And yet. Cabba was the such a joy. And now. I'm near the end of that. And and what. do you do? Well, I I like to believe that now I'm.

not saying that's not going to be as. painful when it happens. It will be. But. I no longer believe the world is ending. Like I understand that like the beauty. of who he is was born of the emptiness. that had to be created by the loss of. Buster. Like I I understand that now. And so I like I said, will I do it. again? There's going to be a period of. time where I'll say, "No way." And same. thing with love. Like people get. divorced. I had a client last week say.

to me, they're they're right kind of in. the middle of their divorce. And I said, you know, 86% of people are remarried. within 5 years of their divorce. And. they said, "Uh, oh, I am never doing. that. Are you kidding? I am never doing. this again." And every time they say. that, I laugh cuz I think to myself, I'm. like, "You're so wrong." And I get it. Like, you don't see it right now. Like. right now I know you think that's true. like but you will love again and you. will when you love again like you will.

feel it and you will be in it and you. will go a and this one's perfect and. this is great. Like I've done divorces. for people that spent a million dollars. in council fees and went through. absolute hell and and when they're about. to get remarried I go you know we should. do your prenup so you don't ever have to. do that again. Like I'll do it for free. if you want. like let's just do and they. go no no no no this this is real this is. real and I sit there and I think like oh. my god you've just you've learned. nothing at all like you that was real.

too until it wasn't like but but this is. you know perhaps you know love is a. delusion brought on by an adequate. lighting I don't know but there's. there's something in us that you know. feels that pain and then there's. something in us that forgets that pain. and I think that that you know that's a. good thing that's a good cycle. I think life is a game you can't win and. so you play it to the utmost. To love. anything is insane because you are. accepting that you're going to lose it. It's a quote you said. You think life is.

a game you can't win. Yeah. I don't think there's any winning. You die. Like that's the only truth. The only the. you know it. every story you know starts the same. You were born. Like every Wikipedia page. starts the same. They were born. And. every Wikipedia page will end exactly. the same. They died. That's it. Everything that happens in between is.

your life. But those are the only two. inevitabilities. Those are the only two. real things for certain. So I I look at. it as it's a game you can't win. Meaning. if you pursue money like your money will. eventually be useless. The things you. accumulate with it will be useless. Every car you own, someone else will. either own it someday or it'll get to. the scrap junkyard someday or it'll. you'll give it to somebody. Like it's. all your material possessions will be. utterly meaningless. Like we all went. through this when the COVID lockdowns.

first started. Everybody was like, you. know, I've got all this money and I've. got all these travel vouchers. And. they're like, yeah, you can't go. anywhere now. And it's like, oh, okay. Well, what do I the, you know, you. started to see the limitations of. things. Have the power go out in your. house sometime. And it'll remind you. that like, oh, wait, yeah, like. everything I have, I just have like this. much of a grip on it. All you got to do. is just take that away and it's gone. And that's that's it, you know? And it's. the same thing with our health. It's the. same thing with, you know, everything. like everything is totally fine and. wonderful and then you have a terrible.

splitting headache and then the only. thing that matters is that headache, you. know, and then that headache goes away. and for like a day you go, I don't have. that headache anymore. But did you wake. up today and go, I don't have a. headache. Oh, and the power's on. Isn't. that great? You know, and I don't have. cancer. Isn't that good? You know, no, you don't. you walk around going like, "Ah, you know, I really why aren't why. aren't my page views where they're at or. what happened with this and why did that. person be so nasty to me?" Like we get. caught up in all this stuff when in fact.

the only thing that you know again if. you keep you know uh uh Epictatis the. stoic philosopher said like keep death. and everything horrible in your line of. sight sort of momento mori because. nothing will bother you that much if you. have that there. So I think life is a. game that look we're playing it. We're. doing our thing. Love is but all love. all relationships end. Every single. marriage ends in death or divorce but it. ends. Every relationship ends. Your. child you will hopefully predesce your.

child but your child will die someday. That's the nature of it. So we have. created a culture where we really try. not to talk about that. We really try to. just keep that out of our gaze. Let's. not talk about it. Our only depictions. of death are preposterous. They're like the person in the deathbed. being like I loved you all. and then just beautiful, you know, beautifully die. Death doesn't look like. that. If you ever spent time with people.

on their deathbed, I I I was a hospice. volunteer for many many years and I. spent a lot of time with people who were. dying, actively dying. And I have to. tell you, like you hang out with someone. who's it's it's it's not pretty. It. doesn't smell good. It doesn't sound. good. But it's real. It's natural. It's. okay. It's where it's all going. And and. the reason why I say this is not to be. morbid. It's that we're doing ourselves. a tremendous disservice by not. acknowledging this. Because I can tell. you how many families when I was a.

hospice volunteer when their family. member, their loved one would die would. say to me, "It's not that they died, it's that they died terribly. They died. without dignity." And I would say to. them, "No, they they died like everyone. dies." Like it's okay. Like they just. because it wasn't like on TV where you, you know, like sort of fade out and say. a few final words and then fade out. LIKE NO ONE VERY FEW IF anyone dies that. way. It's not how it works. So, we're. not doing anyone like this is the part I.

don't understand is that we don't want. to talk about divorce, you know, we. don't want to talk about death. We don't. want to talk about endings cuz I think. there's something in our brain that says. if we talk about it, we're going to make. it happen. And if we don't talk about. it, we'll prevent it from happening. And. that seems to me insane because this. these are things that are absolutely. inevitable when it comes to death and. highly likely when it comes to divorce.

So why not bring them back into the. discourse? And I'll tell you the truth. I think one of the reasons why. my conversations have become something. people are interested in is because I. think we're all fascinated by this but. we don't want to talk about it over. dinner conversation and we don't want to. you know but but we know it's important. something in us knows this is important. like this is something that needs to be. talked about and thought about. You did your thesis,

your master's thesis on the subject of. death titled. Well, you do your research. on metaphor and mortality, the semantics. of death and dying. Yeah. Why would you write your thesis on the. subject of death? Well, it was a different life. So, I. this is before I went to law school. I I. had gotten out of I got out of college. with a degree in psychology and I. decided I wanted to um I was a hospice. volunteer. I I um. why. I have to ask my therapist that. question. I I I can give you the answer.

So I when I was quite young uh I think I. was about six or seven years old, my. mother was diagnosed with a very rare. form of cancer called leoyio saroma. It's a soft tissue saroma. and it's it's very rare. I was way too. young to understand what was going on. I. I just I remember my mother crying, the. sound of my mother crying in the. bathroom and running the sink so I. wouldn't hear her crying, but I I knew.

she was crying. I didn't really. understand what death was. Like I. understood that my gerbil had died, but. I I grew up Catholic, so I remember like. you got to go to heaven and that sounded. pretty good because it was like a really. nice place apparently. And I remember hearing my mother talking. on the phone to her sister and talking. about the fact that she had six months. And I remember my sister who's six years. older than me explaining to me that mom. was sick and she wasn't going to get.

better. And I remember being so young. that I didn't really understand what. that meant, but it was scary and. everyone was very upset. And then my mom didn't die. What had. happened is depending on how you looked. at it either it was a miracle or it was. science and that is that the tumors had. encapsulated itself meaning that the the. immune system had essentially closed up. around it so it didn't metastasize or. spread in any way they went in they did. surgery memorial slunketing cancer.

center and uh she was fine she was well. and then five or six years later it came. back and again I got told your mom has. six months to live At that point, I was. like old enough to understand what that. meant. And I was terrified by it. I was. saddened by it. And once again, she had. surgery. She had all kinds of procedures. and things that had to happen to deal. with it. But once again, she just. miraculously sort of ducked a bullet and. she made it. And three years later, it.

came back again. And then they said, "Your, you know, your mom has six months to live." And I. remember by that point thinking, "Yeah, you you don't know how many times we've. had this conversation. Like, I don't. believe you anymore." Like, and and it's. okay. Like, I'm not afraid because I'm. not like it's not going to happen. I. know that something's going to happen. and it'll work out. And it did. Once. again, she had surgery again. She had. seven surgeries over the course of my. into my 20s. And every single time the.

prognosis was bad and every single time. they kind of took more pieces of her. unfortunately because the type of cancer. this is sometimes gets into other. organs. And so they had to take you know. they had to take her ovaries forced her. into menopause in her 30s. Then they had. to take they had to change the way her. they had to do a bowel resection. They. had to do all kinds of awful things. And. uh and it changed her. It was a painful. life for my mom. It was very hard. And I. remember. though from a very young age being.

forced to think about death, being. forced to sort of see death as something. that was just there and that it was part. of things and that there was no way. around it. And it it just became. familiar. It became sort of this. person in our home, you know, this. possibility that was always there. And I remember every time I would get. the call that my mom's cancer had come. back, there would be some part of me. that thought, "Oh, is this the phone.

call?" Like, "Is this the one where this. time she's going to die? Like, is this. the one?" And most of the time it. wasn't. And 10 Yeah. 10 years ago, um, once again, she had a recurrence. She was supposed to have a very complex. surgery. My dad and I sat in the waiting. room. My parents were married for 50. years. And uh we sat in the waiting. room. It was supposed to be an 8-hour. surgery because it was very complicated.

And the doctor came into the waiting. room a half an hour into the surgery and. said, you know, we opened her up. It's. like a bomb went off. There's nothing we. can do. We're going to close her up and. put her on hospice. And um she passed away eight years ago. after you know she was on hospice for. over a year. Um and she died with us all. around her. And there was something. about the reality that we had been able.

to talk about death for so long that. there was a tremendous peace there. Like. there was a tremendous sense of well. this was going to happen. You know this. was part of our life. you know that this. was what was going to happen and she had. a tremendous piece about her because it. had been part of her life for so long. So when I was in my late teens, I think. my mom had had three or four rounds of. this this cancer thing. I just remember. thinking. I I have to confront this. I have to.

spend time around death. You know, I. again I'm strange. You know, I was. always afraid of spiders. I didn't like. spiders when I was a kid. So when I went. off to college, I bought a tarantula and. I put it in a glass terrarium next to my. bed so that every morning I would wake. up and there was just this giant spider. sitting there next to me and I'm not. afraid of spiders anymore. And it it got. rid of that very quickly. And so I. thought, you know, this is something. that's been around me all the time and. it's something I'm not quite at peace. with, so I'm going to confront it. And I.

went and did a hospice volunteer. training. And I remember I, you know, it. was a weird thing for like a 20-year-old. to do. I had just gotten out of college. I was 21. And uh I think I was the only. person under 60 who was in this. volunteer training. And hospice. training. Hospice volunteer training I. would recommend to anyone. because they do things like they make. you write your eulogy. Your own eulogy. Your own eulogy. Yeah. Yeah. They make. you write your own eulogy. Like and it. can either be if you died right now, what would the eulogy be? Um or if you.

died in your idealized future, what. would it be? Um, they make you write. your own obituary. Like they make you. confront the reality of thinking about. death and and thinking about your own. death and death of the people around. you. And then after you've been through. the training, they assign you families. And. I intended initially just to do it as. sort of a part-time thing in the summer. after I'd graduated college. I was.

working as a waiter and I had a lot of. time during the day because at night I. was I was waiting tables and um I got. assigned to a bunch of families one at a. time and and I I loved it. It was the. most. it was the most it was the most. life-changing thing I've ever done. Like. it it it uh there is something about. when you're a hospice volunteer and. you're just brought into a home and. you're just there to be of service. like. you're just if they want to talk, we'll.

talk. If you want me to help do the. dishes so that you can hang out with. your loved one, that's great. I'll do. that. Like I I did yard work. And a lot. of times like people cuz caring for. someone who's terminally ill in your. home is hard. And and like things like I. want to run out to the store and get a. few things myself. Like that's hard. because you don't want to leave this. person alone. So a lot of times I was. just there to sort of be relief just to. sit with someone. And um and and every. time I would walk out of a hospice.

home, I felt like. I don't know. I felt like a Zen monk. I. felt like like I could hear the rain. Like I just felt like. I'm alive. Like I'm like that that's not happening. to me yet. Like I'm not there yet. Like. that's not that's not someone I love in. that bed. Like I I have love for this. person. and I want to be there for them. I'm here of service, but that's not my. father. That's not my brother. That's. not me. It will be someday. And one day.

it was. One day it was my mother. But it. wasn't me. And I have to tell you, there's something about going through. that experience when you're in your 20s, when you're so self-centered, and you're. supposed to be. You're kind of supposed. to be self-centered in your 20s. You're. supposed to say like, "All right, what. am I going to do with this life? What am. I going to do with these hands? What am. I?" But there is something about at that. stage in life to be told whatever you do. with these hands, whatever you do with. all this, that's where it's going to. end. That's where it's going to end. Best case scenario, best case scenario,

it's going to be in your own home with. your family around you. Worst case. scenario, it's going to be on the street. somewhere prematurely, you know. So, I. was fascinated with death. And I I. decided I was going to go to graduate. school and I was going to study than I. was going to study death and dying. But. there really aren't any programs in. that. So I went to New York University's. Department of Culture and Communication. and I found um uh Neil Postman, Dr. Neil. Postman, who was going to be my because.

NYU of back then and still gives you a. lot of opportunities to kind of create. your own curriculum. As long as it's. something serious, you know, academically serious, and as long as you. can put together like an amalgam of. classes from different disciplines, they'll let you put together something. very individualized. And so I put. together a a study about our the. cultural approaches we have to death and. dying. And my master's degree thesis was. called the semantics of mortality or or. I'm sorry metaphor and mortality the.

semantics of death and dying. And it was. published in a journal called etc um. which is the journal of general. semantics. And it what I did is I. studied the words we use to talk about. death and what they reflect on how we. think about death. So like you know I. remember when I was a kid and our our. dog when I was a child had to be um had. to be euthanized. I remember the doctor. saying we're going to put him to sleep. And I remember thinking no you're not. He's going to die. He's not going to.

sleep. Like I'm going to go to sleep. later. Like he's not going to go to. sleep. He's going to go to death. like. why are you calling it that? And I. understood why obviously as an adult. like it's a in a primitive culture. someone it's an eternal sleep. It looks. like I mean you're asleep you look like. your dad you know I've held a mirror. under something be like all right and I. will I understand where these med like. doctors I I explored doctors talking. about we lost the patient like what what. you don't know where he is like no you.

you know what room he's in no we lost. the battle the battle against death. you're definitely going to lose that. battle like that's they death's record. is amazing death always wins like so if. you're setting it up for that battle. Like that's a that's a bad battle. We just don't want to confront it. though, do we? That's the essence of why. we use the words like pass on, pass, which is fascinating to me because it is. the only certainty we have and we act as. if we are certain it's something bad.

when in fact absolutely no one can say. with certainty what it is and what. happens except that it's inevitable. Having spoke to so many people in their. final days, weeks and months and final. minutes, I'm really compelled to. understand what I can learn from them. about how I should be living my life. based on the types of things they then. say to you, focus on prioritize. Yeah, that's it's that is true. Like you. can learn a tremendous amount from that.

And here's what I will tell you. I. learned they don't talk about death. Like you go through this hospice. training where they're they're they're. very much preparing you to talk with. people about their fear about their. death or their imminence of their death. and all people really want to talk about. is their grandkids, their kids, their. wife, their husband, what they did for a. living and what they liked about it. Like most of the time people talk about. like the things that made them happy. Like I I spent a lot of time just.

listening to people tell me about tell. me happy stories about their life. telling me moments that and it made a. lot of sense to me. Like it made a lot. of sense to me. Like if I said to you. right now like what are five moments in. your life where you just felt loved and. happy like you could stop and close your. eyes and and and there'd be like and and. what a comfort it would be like to have. those. And every once in a while like. when you're in that moment you go I'm in.

one of those right now. like I'm gonna. remember this moment, you know, and but. most of the time you don't like most of. the time it just happens and then you. look back and you go, "God, I remember. that kiss, you know, or remember that, you know, that meal or remember that and. and you don't see it when it's. happening." And that for me is is what I. really learned from doing hospice work. was that like all these people wanted to. tell me about was, you know, when they. were alive, like really alive, not.

laying in a bed dying. Like they want to. talk about like, yeah, I did this or I. saw that. And, you know, I I learned it. in my mom's passing. I remember my last. day with my mom before she became so ill. that she was not mobile and and not not. really functional to have a discussion. with. I just remember we just sat there. and I told her about like how great my. sons were doing, her grandchildren, how. great they were doing and and I talked. about how happy I was and like just how. great life is and how great I feel. And.

I just remember like she just was I. remember thinking like, "Oh, that's what. I would want." Like I would want to know. that like, "Yeah, you did it. Like you. did great. Like look at look at all this. stuff that's here because of you, you. know?" And to me, like that that's what. hospice work very much taught me was it. it it taught me that that um no one's. really going to care that much about you. know some of this stuff that seems so. important. Like it's just not.

that important. like like the people. talked about their kids, they talked. about their grandkids, they talked. about, you know, the love of their life. or if they if they had survived that. love and and they, you know, they talked. about how like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe I'm going to get to see them. again, you know, and and it's very funny. because I I remember. I remember talking to someone a few. years ago and saying something about, "Oh, you know, I wish my mom had been.

alive to see me do you know this thing. and they said oh I I you know I I bet. she's seeing it like I bet she's seeing. it from you know cuz this person was. religious and I remember thinking you. know I don't believe that but I really. hope I'm wrong. like I really hope I'm wrong that would. be amazing like that'd be wonderful it'd. be beautiful you know so I I think. hospice for me the reason why I I got. into the hospice work the reason why my. research interests became death related. um was that that Uh, I just think life.

is better when you have those things in. front of you. When you when you remind. yourself of the inevitability of. endings. We're just the imagination of ourselves. Those are words that you said. You said. we're just the imagination of ourselves. There's nothing to be afraid of. Everything's connected. We're just in. one state of being now and then we'll be. in a different state of being. There's. probably a benevolent force out there. That was something that came to me as a. function of of of um of my my.

experiences with psychedelics very early. in my life is um was that realization. was the realization that everything is. connected and that there is some. benevolent something underneath all of. it and that there's nothing to be afraid. of. And I think some of that was a. function of course of of growing up in. an environment where you couldn't deny. death where it was sort of always. present. And perhaps that was on my mind. at that stage in my life when when I had. those profound experiences. But um.

that's stayed with me. That's never gone. away. That's been very um very much a. part of my view of things that that um. that perhaps we are just one. consciousness experience itself. subjectively and that we we are just you. know I heard what was it Pete Holmes the. comedian recently talking about how you. know people say that like oh we came. from nothing I don't believe in God I. believe in nothing and you know he has. this whole bit about him he's like. really so like instead of believing in.

God which is something that you can't. touch can't prove, can't photograph, and. science can't prove or disprove. You. believe in nothing, which is something. you can't see, touch, feel, science. can't prove or disprove. Like, so if. you're nothing just spontaneously, you. know, creates everything, that's pretty. impressive. Nothing in the scheme of. things. So I think I think that I am. very much a believer in the fact I like. to believe whatever the name of it is. whatever we want to call it having spent. a lot of time with hospice patients and. having thought a lot about death.

I I'd like to think that we you know we. are drops of water and that when we die. we return to the sea that we just merge. with our creator again. And I'm not I'm. not really worried that Jim stops. existing like cuz I don't remember what. I was before Jim. So I have no reason to. think it was something terrible and I. don't know what I'll be after I'm Jim. But I have no reason to think it's going. to be something terrible. It could just.

as easily be it's going to be something. fantastic and that I'm going to get. there and go, "What? What? Why didn't I. get here sooner?" you know, and if there. was a god, then he might greet me and be. like, "Yeah, why are you guys so fixated. on not getting here? It's awesome." You. know, like that temporary thing, like. there's a reason why as an organism. you're supposed to just there's all. these things that'll kill you. Like it's. supposed to be that that happens sooner. rather than later. But like that's it's. a very uncomfortable thought. Like it's. an uncomfortable thought that like this.

might be hell or this might be the part. that we should be afraid of. Like this. might be the part that's really hard. Like maybe what's before it and what's. after it's really the easy part and. what's happening here is what's. challenging. Like when someone dies. I've always thought to myself like when. someone dies like the people who suffer. are the living. Like the person who's. passed they're gone now. That's why I. never believed in the death penalty.

because they were like we're going to. punish this person by they're going to. die. I'm like, well, my grandmother. died. I I didn't like to think that it. was a punishment. Like, put them in a. box, feed them terrible food. That that. sounds like a punishment, you know, like, you know, make them watch bad TV. I don't know, something. But death, like, death to me doesn't I don't like. to think of death as a punishment. I I I. I'm enjoying this ride and I'm enjoying. this body and I'm enjoying all of this, but I'm not terrified of that. I'm.

genuinely curious. I'm genuinely. curious. And when the time comes, I want. to face it with open with, you know, clean hands and an open heart. Where does acceptance play in dealing. with an ending? Like how important is it. to accept? And when you when you meet. your clients as a divorce lawyer now, is. part of the suffering the resistance to. accept the situation? Yes. even if it you it wasn't your fault. because you know this is sometimes.

people conflate this idea of acceptance. with like you know justification I'm not. saying justification I'm saying accept. this is the situation you find yourself. in. yeah I I think that's very very astute. and very real I think there's a step. before acceptance there's a number of. steps before acceptance but but the. first one is acknowledgement like I. think you have to acknowledge that. something is happening before you can. start because acceptance has to do with. adjusting your emotional state and. reaction to it. Changing the level of. tension in your body about it. You know,

like every time I've ever gone to the. dentist, you know, there's this part of. me it's like, "Oh, here it comes. Oh. god, here it comes. This is going to. hurt. Here it comes." You know, and it's. like I'm ready. I'm bracing. I'm. bracing. And And I have to remind myself. like, "Wait, stop. Don't do that.". Yeah. Stop. Soften. Soften. Soften over. and over. Soften. It's one of the. reasons I love Brazilian jiu-jitsu. because when you're a white belt in. Brazilian jiu-jitsu, everything is like. resisting everything, you know, trying. to stop everything and and then you you.

start to learn like, oh, no, no, no, like soften, like yield, like just, you. know, protect the neck, move the hand. Okay, go ahead. Try and choke me. Like, you're not going to do it. Like, and and. there's something about that like not. trying to resist the thing, but. trust what you were saying there about. trust. trust in how natural something. is. But it's acknowledging first, okay, here is the reality of my situation. This marriage is ending. Like there. there's a there's a a a. Zen parable or saying I heard many years.

ago, which is. if you don't learn to find joy in the. snow, you will have less joy in your. life and precisely the same amount of. snow. reality is reality. Like I I broke my. favorite teacup. I can be happy about. that. I can be angry about that. I can. be sad about that. Either way, my teacup. is gone. It's gone. That's it. Like, and.

so I think that the acceptance piece. first requires, okay, my life is finite. My life is finite. My marriage. is not permanently gifted to me. Love is. not permanently gifted. It is loaned. Whether it's the life of my my life, the. love of my dog, the love of my romantic. partner, the love of my children, it is. on loan to me. It is not permanently.

gifted. So that's just acknowledgment. first. then it's not pulling from that. yielding from like it's it's about. softening softening and realizing that. okay so now what do I do with this like. what do I do you know there's something. about. my my therapist once said to me we were. talking about um. we were talking about like resisting. change in life I was going through a. transition in life and and I was having. a hard time with it and he said you know.

Uh he said you're very curious. He said. you. you try to like swim against the current. and it's not going to work. or you just let go and let yourself go. with the current and that's not going to. work. So you try to like I'm going to be. the ocean and that doesn't work. He's. like surf. He's like surf. He's like surfing is. kind of the perfect balance. like you're.

not trying to fight the wave. You're. trying to take it where it's going to. take you, but you're going to impose. yourself on the process a little. You're. going to use technique, patience, you're. going to use your body, and you're going. to try to just see because there's an. element in surfing, just like in. jiu-jitsu, just like in so many things. in life, of like yielding, but also. maintaining an active role, right? And I. think that is in the demise of a. relationship or the loss of someone.

because of death or again any transition. any ending. First it's about. acknowledging the reality of what we had. what we were you know what our health. was whatever it might be and then saying. okay and now this has changed and I can. resist it or I can yield to it. I can. accept that this is what's happened. It. is snowing. My teacup is broken. Whatever it is. And then. you can see what's next because again,

we don't know what's next. We don't know. what that will lead to. Like some of the. worst things, some of the moments in my. life where I went, "Oh my god, I'm never. getting through this gave way to some of. the greatest moments in my life." Like. just when the just when the caterpillar. thought its life was ending, it became a. butterfly. You know, but it had the. world had to end. Like imagine being the. bird in the egg. You know, you've been. warm and happy. Imagine being in the. womb. Like you're warm, you're happy,

everything's being fed to you. It's like. lovely. You're just buoyant and floating. around. And now if you're that bird, you. got to break through a shell and get. into this cold weird world. You don't. know how your wings work yet. Or if. you're a baby, it's like all blood and. screaming. But you got to do that to get. to the next thing. And the next thing is. beautiful. Like the bird only gets to. fly because it broke through the egg. And it only broke through the egg. because it was brave enough to destroy. the only world it's ever known. And.

that's how I look at divorce in some. ways is that divorce is like this whole. whether I'm the one ending it or my. partner is the one ending it. Like. something is ending that I never thought. was going to end and it's done. And now. what? I don't know. I don't know what. But I have no reason to think it's going. to be horrifying. It might be incredibly. beautiful, but it's it's the road ahead. of me now. And and that to me, there's. something very beautiful about that. level of acceptance, but the lights are off.

The lights are off on that road. It's a. it's a road with no street lamps. And. that's what the uncertainty of. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary, right? We humans are. particularly bad with dealing with. uncertainty. I learned this when I when. I studied um Uber Labs, which is this. laboratory they had at Uber to figure. out how to build the perfect taxi app. And they discovered that much of the. reason why we love Uber is it cuz it. kills the uncertainty that we used to. have when we called the taxi on the. phone and then we had to stand there for. seven or maybe 17 minutes. hoping that it was coming. And it's the. same analogy you might find if you know.

you go to an airport and it says flight. is delayed. Now flight delayed is much. worse than flight delayed 2 hours. because I can work with that. But flight delayed. Yeah. with no certainty around how long I'm. going to be stood in this airport for is. like mental torture. And it's the same. And the truth is there is something I'm. I'm not look I'm not polyiana about it. like there is something terribly. frustrating upsetting difficult about. your flight being delayed or your flight. being cancelled for example but I in.

Frankfurt Germany. I had the I think it's the best meal of. my entire life at a little tiny. restaurant. I only had that meal because I was. flying back from Poland and had a stop. in Frankfurt that was supposed to be for. one hour and because of snow they. canceled all the flights to essentially. to the United States and I was stuck in. Frankfurt for the night. Now I I.

certainly had a few moments of like are. you kidding me? Like I have work, I have. this, I have that. But then something in. me went, okay, like you can be upset. about this all you want, man, but it. ain't gonna make the flights happen and. you can't walk home from Frankfurt, so. what are you gonna do? You've not been. in Frankfurt before. See what happens. And I walked around Frankfurt and I. found this amazing little restaurant and. it was I think still to this day the. best meal I've ever had in my life. And. I've gone back to Frankfurt three times.

just to eat at that restaurant. And I. the hotel that I found because I was. like, "All right, I need a room. I need. to get a room somewhere." Turned out. became one of my favorite hotels and I. stayed there several times. So, you. know, again, if you'd said to me in. advance, Jim, would it be awful if you. got stuck in Frankfurt? I would be like, "Oh my god, that would be so bad. I have. a quarter appearance tomorrow and I have. this to do and I have that to do." My. life would have been so much poorer if I. hadn't gotten stuck in Frankfurt. I had. like four amazing trips and a bunch of.

amazing meals and all these incredible. experiences because one time my flight. got cancelled because of snow. And I. tell you something, I I'm really really. glad that flight got cancelled. I wasn't. at the time. At the time it was very. frustrating. I'd call my assistant in. the middle of night and be like, "All. right, you got to cancel all my stuff. You got to reset." But the truth is like. you just don't know. You just don't. know. You won't know. You won't know. until you're sitting ideally in a bed. and there's a hospice volunteer sitting. next to you and you're telling them all.

about the amazing meal that you had in. Frankfurt that one time, not you know my. flight got delayed once. You said earlier at the start of this. conversation, no one intends to end up. in the consultation room um with a. divorce lawyer. But I wondered when you. said that, I thought, do you know what? I bet you've met someone in your life. that did intend to end up there. I. someone that got married because they. wanted the divorce. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I I I have met So,

I've met people because I'm in in the. high net worth and ultra high net worth. space. High net worth we define as like. 10 to a few hundred million and ultra. high net worth is like 500 million and. up. in in those spaces. Yeah. There's a. there's there certainly are people that. get married. to a wealthy person for what will be. great financial benefit, but a lot of them are not planning on.

cashing the chips out necessarily. They. see it as a possibility, but they more often are like, "Oh, no. I'd like to ride this ride as long as. possible because the amount of money I'm. going to have access to with this person. is much greater than even if I divorce. and take some of their things. So, um. that that is certainly I I would the. overwhelming majority of people like. 99.999%. of my of clients I have met in a 25-y.

year career did not mean to get. divorced. They they they move towards. divorce and eventually many of them go, "Oh yeah, this I saw early on we were. doomed." But you know, love is so. intoxicating. We fall in love so fast, you know, and we really do like have a. tendency to in the early days like we we. tend to just be so forgiving of a. person. I mean, thank God that passes to. some degree. Could you imagine like. that? You know when you first are with.

your romantic partner like they brush up. against you and it's like electric that. feeling you know because you we couldn't. what would we as a world get stuff done. if we felt like that forever about our. romantic partner if 10 years into the. relationship when your partner brushed. up next to you at the sink you went like. oh god YOU WOULDN'T GET ANYTHING DONE. like you wouldn't get anything done you. we would be a very unproductive world so. thankfully that fades and changes I I. hope it never goes completely away for. for any couple but It becomes. manageable. You start to see this person.

a little more clearly. Hopefully still. with tremendous optimism. What's the quickest marriage you've ever. represented? Quickest marriage and divorce. Marriage. 72 hours. From marriage to divorce. From marriage to divorce. Yes. Marriage to marriage to anulment in. that situation. But I've I've seen. divorces that were 72 hours. Were they drunk? What was the. Yeah, it was in one it was that they. were drunk. In one it was um I don't. know how to put it. It was almost like a. It was almost like a game of chicken.

that went too far. Like they were they. had just sort of started dating and one. of them was like, "I bet you wouldn't. get my name tattooed on you." And. they're like, "Oh, yeah." And then they. went and got their name tattooed on each. other. And then they were like, "Well, I. bet we I wouldn't I like you, so I'd get. an engagement ring." And then they went. and got an engagement ring, and they. were like, "Oh, yeah. Well, I would I. you know, would you marry me?" And then. they got married. And then I think like. they probably had a great night. Like. that night was probably that might have. been some mindbending sex, but then two. days later they were like, "Wait, you.

know, do you you don't actually want to. have kids?" Oh, because I do. And like, oh, you're you know, like and they. realize they were just fundamentally. incompatible people. Have you seen any patterns there with. compatibility then? If if a couple walks. in and they've been together for I guess. when you look back at the types of. people you've represented. um is there a certain length of. engagement and boyfriend girlfriend. phase that is typically conducive with. it working or not working? No, I don't see that pattern. I I'm. constantly I'm very fixated on pattern.

recognition. So I'm constantly thinking. I'm always looking at same religion. different religions or religious versus. non-religious or older and younger older. man younger woman younger man older. woman like what what permutation same. culture different culture same races. different races like first generation to. the US or you know both first generation. or neither. um I I don't I don't see those patterns. I really I I if I did I'd be the first.

to say it you know I don't hesitate hate. to say stuff, but I I've not seen those. patterns. I I have found if I was to say. there was any any pattern, it it it. really is um. I I think substance use is probably the. main thing like that if if one or both. people are big drinkers or drug users, that's usually a good indication that. the marriage is going to lead to divorce.

because substance use issues tend to get. worse in either both people, which. causes all kinds of second order. effects, or more commonly, one person. when they have kids or when they reach a. slightly different stage in life. scales back on alcohol or drug use and. the other person has an unhealthy. relationship with the substances and it. gets further down and that's the.

direction that it goes in. I had um you. said something earlier which really piqu. my interest as well which kind of. relates to this is you said love is. loaned and I I immediately thought of a. friend who who brought me to a. restaurant one day to basically tell me. that him and his um wife were being. divorced and the way they described it. was quite heartbreaking because. it seemed like they had a good. relationship. It's kind of like they got. busy with their jobs and the kid and. they forgot to water the plant. Yeah. It's like the only way I can describe it. because they were like good people. They.

didn't really appear to argue at all. They had this kid. They're both CEOs. She's a CEO. He's a CEO. And it's like they like raised the kid. and forgot to water the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I I've I've always phrased. that as they lost the plot. Like that. they were because when you get married, you're trying to write a story together. and sometimes I think you lose the plot. Like you know when you're reading. and like all of a sudden you stop and. you go, I don't really remember where I. am in this. like and you got to go back. a few pages, you know, to like, oh,

okay, I remember this part. Let me start. there. I think sometimes we lose the plot. And. I and when we I think that happens in. every relationship, every long-term. relationship, I think sometimes you lose. the plot. Like other things are going on. at work or you have kids and and kids. require a tremendous amount of your. bandwidth. So, I I get it. But I think. if you lose the plot, that's where it. it's like hard to it's a it's again. acknowledgment of it, like awareness, truth, being honest, and saying, "Hey, I.

feel like we lost the plot." Like I feel. like there's, you know, we lost the. plot. How do we get it back? Like how. But but the problem is. when you say to your partner, "Hey, I I. feel like we kind of lost the plot.". rather than hearing that as, "Hey, this. is really important to me. You're really. important to me. Yeah, work's important. Kids important, but you and me, you and. me, that's really important." Like, it's. equally, if not more important. So, I.

feel a certain way. I I feel like we've. lost the plot. And And I'm not saying. that's your fault. I'm not saying it's. my fault. I'm saying it's the kids'. fault. I don't know whose fault it is. I. don't really care. But I don't want to. lose the plot because I care about you. and I and this plot, this story is. important to me. People don't hear it. that way. People hear it as we lost the. plot. Well, what do you want me to do. about it? Like I, you know, oh, okay, so. I'll just ignore the kid. What do you. What What do you want? I'm sorry. I'm. doing the best I can. And that's like. that's not the way to hear that. I I. understand. I think it's very human to. hear it that way. But I genuinely.

believe that that, you know, yeah, it's. like you forgot to water the plant. Like, and nobody meant to kill the. plant, but you kill the plant because. you weren't thinking about the plant. And by the way, plant's right there. YOU. WALK PAST it every single day. You just. not once thought, "Oh yeah, I got to. remember to water the plant." And so I. think it's very easy in marriage, in. long-term relationships, it's very easy. to just forget that this is you're. borrowing this, you know, this is not.

yours. Like this person's not yours. This person is loaned to you. And it's, by the way, it's the same with death. Like this person is loaned to you. They. could be taken away. By divorce or by death, they could be. taken away. Every marriage will end in. one of those two things. Death or. divorce. For sure. You've used this word slippage before. Yeah. When does it happen and what does. slippage mean? I mean, slippage is everyone understands. slippage, I think. Like it's not like. you eat cake and then the next day your.

suit doesn't fit. Like you just make. lots of little choices and those little. choices add up and all of a sudden your. suit doesn't fit and you go, "Wait, when. did that happen?" You know? And I think. it's the same thing in relationships. Like we You know, Ernest Hemingway said. in um The Sun Also Rises, um I I went bankrupt the same way. anybody does. Very slowly and then all. at once. And I think that's how that's. slippage. Like it's just little. raindrops that eventually become the. flood. And and I think that's what. happens in relationships is you you.

start to with good intentions, you're focused on other things. Maybe. you start to go, "Hey, I got this." Like. cuz you know when you were single, finding the one was big. That was big. That was a big priority in your life. And then you found them. And then. there's like a whole bunch of just. high-fiving and celebration. And it's. like, oh, this is so great. I FOUND THE. ONE. YOU FOUND YOU WANTED THE ONE, TOO. AND YOU FOUND IT. IT'S ME. IS this. great? And then you go, "All right, we. got that. Now what other stuff, you.

know, what other stuff can we do?". Because now like I'm supercharged. I got. you. You got me. We're gonna do this. thing. And you go and what do you do? make new life or you make careers or you. go amazing places LIKE YOU'RE DO IT'S. NOT ENOUGH IT'S NOT enough to just go we. got each other and it's so fun and let's. just tuck in here and just stay together. you know and I I always laugh with. friends by the way because I can always. tell when someone's like in love because. they put on a couple of pounds you know. cuz they really do because they're just. they just go like do I want to like get.

up and go to the gym or do you go want. like sit on the couch and eat popcorn. and watch something yeah let's do that. you know and it's just sort of like you. know you're just so it's love weight. it's happy love weight. And I I love. when I see it on somebody. Like it looks. good on everybody, you know? Much better. than like if you believe me, like if you. look at photos of me from when I had an. eight pack, it was the most miserable. time in my life cuz I'm at the gym just. trying to beat the pain out of me, you. know? So I I I think it's very very. normal that people in that heaviness of.

that. Okay. So when that fades and now. we're like in a sustainable pattern of a. relationship and you're focusing on. other things, little tiny things start. to, you know, and you don't want to make. a thing of it. You don't want to say. like, "Oh, by the way, calling a foul. here, throwing a flag on that play." No, you just sort of go like, "Oh, no. It's. it's just a little thing. It's not a big. thing. Don't worry about it." And I. think that's the that is how the process. begins and it leads right to my office. someday. Jordan Peterson said something to me. Jack, have you got my phone? Yeah,

I just wanted to play you this um 30. seconds of something he said. Everybody keeps telling me I have to. have a conversation with Jordan. Peterson. This. it would be fascinating. I imagine two people are telling him the. same thing, which is. my friend is um going through some. difficulties in his relationship and I. sent him this little clip which I. honestly I keep this clip saved in my. phone. I have to send it to so many of. my male friends. But this is what Jordan says and it. relates to slippage. Here's something to understand about. your marriage. Okay, you are going to. have to listen to your wife 90 minutes a.

week. Okay, and you might as well just. get that through your thick skull. Now, why? If you listen to her enough, you. can make peace and you can play. So, there's a huge benefit. If you don't. listen to her, that will accumulate. and you'll listen to her in divorce. court. Someone sent me that. I don't think it. was you. Someone sent me that. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that's a piece of. what I'm talking about for sure. It. feels a little like the advice last time.

I was on I was saying I I found. offensive which is happy wife, happy. life. Like I think there's this sense of. like well what a man has to do is just. sort of tolerate the like listen I I. don't think most men like don't want to. listen to their wife for 90 because that. impo that seems to me and I know he's. being hyperblock and I love Jordan's. work and I I I find him fascinating and. I really enjoy him but when when someone. says to me like oh you have to listen to. your wife for 90 minutes a week like.

that feels like you're going to sit. there and be like how many more minutes. do I have to do was for, you know, there. was a time where you couldn't wait to. hear her. Like she was interesting and. she was interested. But do you think the. women that are listening to this right. now that have husbands and boyfriends. Yeah. think they their husband and boyfriend. likes it when they said, "Hey, hey, hey, we need to talk about something.". But see who when in your life has. someone saying that to you been a. precursor to something good? Hey, we.

need to talk about something THAT THAT. NEVER THAT'S LIKE, you know, is this. siren A GOOD SIREN? WHEN is this siren. ever good? Like there's certain phrases. we really need to have a conversation. That is not a good entry point. And. that's not because it means there's. something wrong. But before you get to. that, like how many women, you know, would say that that, you know, in the interaction with their spouse, like they don't want like a let's have a. 90 minutes in the penalty box where you. have to listen to me talk to you. Like.

that seems terrible. You know, the the. thought of of of having to do that as. like a practice sounds sort of like, all. right, well, if I endure that for 90. minutes, the the bonus is I get sex or. something like, and that seems crazy to. me. As a divorce lawyer, if you think about the divorces you've. um seen in court and you've sort of. consult consulted on, etc., Do you. believe that if that couple had spent 90. minutes a week, sat down openly being. honest with each other, they would have. ended up in your consultation room?

I think if they'd made a practice like. that as something deliberate, I I mean, maybe it would make a difference. I I. think what's more important than the the. structure of a ritual and the the time I. I have a better practice than that. I. have um so I have a chapter in the book. called hit send now where I talk about. sharing with your partner kind of. promptly when something has rattled you. the wrong way without saying we need to.

talk like just giving like and I I. suggest people do it via email so that. it's like you can say to your partner. like hey listen like I want you to. reflect on this like you don't have to. answer right away you don't have to be. defensive and also you can be careful. about how you parse it because not. everybody's is very sure-footed in their. speech, right? So, sometimes people if. you just try to do it face to face, sometimes it's not going to come out. clearly. So, if you're writing, you can. edit it. You can be careful with it. But. I I genuinely think sometimes people. just need to check in in a relationship.

And by the way, you have to if you want. that, you also have to be willing to. accept that in your direction, right? So. I have a friend I have a a friend who. read my book and he was a friend who. actually then read my book and he said. that he and his wife go for a walk once. a week and they make a deliberate. practice during that walk of sharing. with each other one or two or three. things that the person.

didn't do perfectly in the relationship. that week. and they hear it with love. Like they deliberately from the. beginning go, we're hearing this with. love. We're hearing this as a practice. It's a deliberate practice because our. goal is to have a great relationship and. keep it great. So, we're going to hear. it that way. We're not going to hear it. as a criticism. We're going to hear it. as I love this relationship enough to be. honest with you. I want you to have, you. know, I'd rather you have an. uncomfortable truth than a comfortable. lie. I'd rather not have resentment.

buildup. And then they always finish. that walk with three things that the. person did that made them feel loved or. feel good or what. And that's so you're. ending on that positive note. And they. said they've never had a week where they. didn't come up with something. That happy wife, happy life phrase. There must be a reason why it became. cliche, why it became popular. Well, it. became popular because I think so many. people were willing to accept the. unbelievably ridiculous model of. relationships that's led us to a 56%.

divorce rate and probably another 20 or. 30% staying together unbelievably. miserable but not wanting to give up. half their stuff. So yeah, like every. misery loves company. Like everybody is. sitting around going like, "Well, listen, women are like that. You got to. spend 90 minutes with them. Happy wife, happy life." Like and I I just I just. don't accept that. I don't accept that. it has to be awful. Why is it not happy husband, happy wife, though? Well, in reality, it is. I think in.

reality, it's happy husband and happy. wife equals happy marriage. Like, but why did it come into culture that. that way rounded? Because I think there's there's a. Well, I mean, my personal opinion on. this is I think men are probably easier. to please in some ways. Like, okay, you know, I think men are either hungry. or horny. So, like either feed us or. have sex with us. And that's kind of. we're most of the time pretty happy. Like I don't I don't we're not you know. like which curtains should we pick out. for the house? Like we're not that.

caught up in I don't know a lot of guys. caught up in that. Like when it came to. weddings like most of the guys I know. weren't when they were young men going. like what is my wedding going to be. like? I can't here's what I'm going to. do. Like it was very like is there a DJ. or a band and what will the bar have and. that's kind of what they were into. And. everything else was like cool babe. whatever you like. Like I'm excited to. see you excited. That's what matters to. me. So men are simple. I think men are quite simple. Yeah. And. I think women, and by the way, this is. not a criticism of men and it's not a. criticism of women. And again, it's a. generalization. I understand that. But.

like women, I think, thank God, women. are much more nuanced in my experience. It's like they they notice more. sometimes or different things like. they're like I I think men and women. bring different things to and again not. every man not every woman but like I. genuinely believe that we bring. different gifts to relationships and and. when we embrace that and by the way that. polarity when we're dating is the. greatest thing in the world. But of. course it gets challenging because this.

person's not just your sexual partner. and romantic partner. They're your. roommate. They're your co-parent. They're your travel partner. Share a. bathroom with them. Like you got like. this is a whole another thing when you. get married. The French have a saying. that you know marriage turns a lover. into a relative. And and the truth is like not any of. like your you know your lover you have. this sort of you know it's why affairs. are so intoxicating and wonderful. because you just get the best parts. You don't have to you don't have to you.

know pick up this person's socks. You. don't have to listen to the fight they. got in with their cousin, you know. You. don't have to be like, I got to spend 90. minutes with them, you know. You can. actually, you're just getting the good. stuff, the passion, the sex, the, you. know, which again, you you can have you. we can do relationships however we. decide we want to do them. That's what's. cool about it is the two people in it is. what matters. And I think even before. social media, we were very much about, well, how is everybody else doing it?

Because I I guess that's the right way. to do it. And so, yeah, happy wife, happy life. It was like, listen, just. here, you know, like just just make her. happy because then she'll shut up and. you can just watch football. Like, and. it I I I mean, look, that never appealed. to me. That was never interesting to me. I I think a lot of people absolutely buy. into that model of relationships. What's more interesting to me than. people who've just given up, right? people who've just said like, "Yeah, I.

know the hard thing to do and the right. thing to do are the same thing, but I'm. just going to do the easy thing.". Because it's like, h what's more. interesting to me is that I think. sometimes people screw up their. relationships with completely good. intentions. And the the example I I I. give in my book about this is sex. I think most people who've been in a. long-term relationship will say, "Yeah, you know, the sex has become kind of. predictable." like it's become kind of. it's not as novel, you know,

and I think that happens for the. absolute best of intentions. And it. would be really lovely if we just. acknowledged that because here's why it. happens, right? You get with a person, you're first dating, first time you, you. know, you get sexual with the person, you throw every trick you've got at that. person, right? You do all the things. that you think they're going to like to. see what are they going to like, right? Do they like the same stuff that other. people liked or do they like something. different or they you know what do they. do they like the same things you like. and you throw everything at it and and.

and you start okay they don't like that. okay this they really like oh they make. really nice noises when I do that okay. and you start to and then what do you do. you start to get more efficient like oh. I know she doesn't like that so I'm not. going to do that but I know she likes. this so I'm going to do that a whole lot. right and she does I hope the same thing. she does the he loves it when I do this. and the sound that comes out of him when. I do that I say what do you do you play. the greatest hits you play the greatest. hits cuz why not? And by the way, there's only so many hours in the day. and we got some stuff we got to get to. So, let's really throw the greatest hits.

at each other and we're going to have a. great time. Well, what did you just do? You were trying to make each other. really happy and be a really good lover. to each other. But what did you just do? You just created a routine. You just. created a routine. And here's the other. thing about humans, which we all know if. you've ever had a sexual partner for. more than six months. Then you've noticed the patterns. And by. the way, you're thrilled with them. because you're doing the greatest hits. Like I went to see spring scene to hear. Born to Run. That's what I'm there to. see. Like I I love it. Do the greatest. hits. But then if they do something different,

there is some part of you that goes, "What was that? Where did that come. from? That was we don't usually do that. or we don't do it in that order." And by. the way, sometimes that's exciting, right? Sometimes it's like, "Yeah, let's. have sex in the laundry room. What? We. got a bed right over there." Yeah, we. always do it over there. Let's do it in. the laundry room. Like I don't know. That's fun, right? It's fun to do. something different. Well, we get to a. place where now when we do something. different, we start to feel like we're. gonna have to have a conversation about. it because it's like, well, why did you. do that? That's a strange or sometimes. people go, why did they do that. different thing? Are they like, is it. they're watching porn? Are they cheating.

on me? Where did they get that idea. from? Is that something that they want. and they want to start doing that? Is. that part of the greatest hits and I. didn't realize it? Do they not like what. I've been doing? And we start to. sabotage again with good intentions from. day one. All you wanted was to make your. partner happy and they wanted to make. you happy and look what you did. You. made a routine. So, the only way out of. that spiral. is to call it to talk about it. Call it. out to say, "Hey, you know, it feels. like things are kind of in like we're in.

a you know, is there anything I could do. different or you might want different?". And I think there's lots of ways to have. that conversation. How do we not have that conversation? Like, what's the worst way to have that. conversation? The worst way to have that conversation. say, "How come you don't do this. anymore? or you used to do it all the. time or you know I've never we why won't. you ever let me this or why don't you. ever try that that's the worst way to do. it. blame. blame and also it's on you yeah why did. you do or also that it's like because. immediately the person's reaction to. that is going to be well here's why you.

know because of this well because you. this you know well how come you never do. this like and it it turns into that and. I think there's a million other ways to. do it all of which are better the The. best one in my opinion, but I'm a lawyer. and I'm dishonest a lot of the time is, you know, manipulation. I think that. there's very positive man. I manipulate. people's emotional state for a living, right? Like that's my job is to make the. other side scared, my client feels safe, the judge feel good about my client, bad. about the other side. So like I I try to.

use my powers for good. And I think. here's a great way to use that power for. good. I think if there's something going. on in bed that you want to try or do and. you don't want to have the clinical. convers like you don't want to call an. audible in the middle of sex and just. start doing something different and have. your partner go what the heck was that? I think a great one is oh my god the. dream I had about you last night. It. just you don't even want to know wait. what what was the dream? What what was. the dream that you had? No. No. I don't. even I don't know. It's cuz I had dairy.

before bed or something. I don't know. I. I had the dirtiest dream about you. You. tell me what human being, male, female, gay, straight, anybody isn't going to. go, "No, for real, what? What was I. doing? What were you doing? What was. it?" Then you tell them, you tell them. the thing that you'd be interested in. doing. And they go, "It was you and your brother." And. okay, if that's something you're looking for, I don't know how to get I'm very. persuasive. I couldn't get you. I. couldn't give you an entry point for. that one. But if it's something that you. wanted to do, you say, "Yeah, I had this.

dream and this is what happened." And. your partner may react as, "Oh, really? Like you would like that?" And then you. can go, "Yeah, no. I mean, I don't know. I just it was in my brain, so I don't. know. Like, it seemed weird to me, too.". And then you can back out of it without. it being a thing. Or you can go, "I. don't know. Maybe." Because if their. reaction is, "Oh, yeah. Would is that. something you'd want to do?" Be like, "I. don't know. Maybe it is subconsciously. or we tried sometimes.". How many times do people end up in. divorce court because the lights went. out in the bedroom? I mean, how many would admit it? Or how.

many is it really the case? Well, because here's what I'll tell you. I. would say a good at least 80% of the. people that end up at my office, infidelity was a piece of it. So, that. tells me that sex is a big piece, you. know, because most people who are in. genuinely satisfying sexual. relationships with their partner aren't. looking to have other sexual. relationships. Some people are just. addicted to sex, though. And I say this. because I got some friends who people. always think I'm like projecting and I'm. like secretly talking about myself, but. I'm actually not. I've met a wide.

spectrum of individuals and their. relationship with sex varies wildly. Some people I just think are going to. cheat forever regardless of who they're. with because they have some like trauma. related to the chase in sex. And then. some people are kind of, you know, don't. have sex at all. So on the on the end. where you've got that almost sex. addiction behavior, um I'm just. wondering if if uh I guess I guess the. question there the broader question was. about how many how much is the lights. going out in the bedroom? Does it relate.

to people ending up in divorce court? Well, I remember listening to your. conversation with Gad and uh and and him. you you asking him flat out like, "So. how much of the motivation is sex?" like. and and I think his answer was ab like a. tremendous amount of evolutionary. biology is tied to sex. Like a. tremendous amount of our motivation is. born of sex. It's about sex, food, and. not becoming food. That's like our three. primary motivators. So I think sex is. incredibly important. I also think sex. is constantly thrown into our line of. sight. So I think you can't discount.

that. I mean, I think sex is on social. media on like the the amount of sex that. is put in our face constantly now is. shocking. It's shocking. I mean, compare. it. Do your grandfather has not seen as. many breasts in one lifetime as you'd. see in one visit to Instagram. Like, I. mean, there is just so much cleavage. going on. It's you just can't even. So, I think fundamentally, like, of course, it's being thrown in our life, advertising everywhere. It's surrounded.

We live in a sex saturated environment. How long have you been a divorce lawyer? 25 years. So since that time, things like only. fans have emerged and pornography has. been become commonplace. I imagine at. the start of your career, the term. pornography probably wasn't used much in. divorce. Hardly ever. Hardly ever. Is it used now? It's everywhere now. It's everywhere. There's a lot of unique things that have. I've watched evolve in my career. um the. proliferation of revenge porn, the. number of people that have concerns. about audio, video, photographs of them,

you know, because every I mean, the. proliferation of it is also a function. of the fact that everyone has a video. camera and everyone has a has a has a a. camera, a sophisticated camera in their. hand, you know. So, there's a tremendous. amount of concern about, you know, this. person has images of me, photos of me, tremendous amounts of um, you know, cheating has gotten much much easier. than it used to be. I mean, the idea of. like connecting with a potential sexual. partner and also having conversations.

with people we have absolutely no. business having conversations with and. having neutral entry points to get into. So, like, you know, it used to be like. maybe you see the attractive soccer mom. at the your kid's soccer practice and. she's married and you're married, but. like if you saddled up next to her and. started talking, you're having a. conversation with a group full of. people. And if you called her on the. phone at the house, that would be weird, right? But if you like message her or. you add her on Facebook, it's not weird. cuz our kids are on the same soccer. thing and maybe there's a Facebook group. for the soccer parents and then she. posts a picture of herself when she was. on vacation and you say, "Oh, where did.

you guys stay? We were thinking about. going to Jamaica." And then she says, "Oh, this." and you go, "Oh, you know,". and suddenly we're having a conversation. and it's private. Nobody else is there. We're alone in a room. So, I think it's. pretty, you know, it's become very. conducive to cheating. And it's also. become a way for there to be a. tremendous amount of evidence of. cheating that accidentally lands in the. hands of your partner. So, like I can't. tell you how many times like I know he's. passed now Steve Jobs, but like divorce.

lawyers owe him a tremendous debt of. gratitude for the amount of business he. sent our way because Apple's integration. of its devices makes it incredibly. common that the text message from your. lover comes up on your kid's iPad. because you didn't realize you logged. into the same Apple ID and it comes up. on the iMessage and now your spouse is. looking at the the the text about how. great the sex was yesterday. And like I. I I'm not being funny. That's like a. once a week thing that happens in. divorce lawyers offices. And and I know.

it wasn't intentional. I know he wasn't. like I'm going to mess up some. marriages. But the truth is is it, you. know, it creates an easier opportunity. for people to cheat because people can. clandestinely communicate in ways that. they used to not. And they have these. neutral entry points that lead to. something negative. And it's become. something where you get caught because. there's a tremendous evidentary trail. now. So I I think these are all, you. know, these are all factors that have. made it harder. But again, porn only.

fans, like all those kinds of things. These are just more sort of outlets for. the same, you know, it's it's like, you. know, there's a thousand restaurants and. there's only one menu, you know, and and. that's all this is is is it's all the. same stuff just in different. permutations. Like a divorce lawyer 50. years ago was dealing with some of the. exact same things. It's different. technologies. It's different, you know, manifestations of the of the issue, but. it's it's all just heartbreak. It's all. just males and females that tried to.

make it work and somehow it came apart. Do you think marriages are good for. love? And like what's your view on. marriages? I I've been thinking. I think marriage and love have very. little to do with each other. I'm fine with getting married. My issue. is the wedding. I'm not a big fan of. weddings. I think I don't know where. this tradition of weddings came from, but getting like hundreds of people in a. room and doing this whole the big gaps, the amount of time you have to wait, the. waiting three hours to be fed, the the. length of it, the fact that it's so.

stressful and it causes some of my. friends I've watched like 12 to 24. months of stress and agony and. arguments, but it's like one day. and I just go I don't know. But have you ever been to a wedding that. was non-traditional? Yeah. I like my. and that you go, "Oh, that's cool.". It was like a party. Yeah. And it's like them. and they took all the out. Cuz I have to say something like I see. I'm the opposite, which is I don't. really believe in the legal institution. of marriage. I think it has almost. nothing to do with love. I think it's. largely performative. I think if people.

were madly in love, they're madly in. love and they could either marry or not. get married and it's not going to change. anything except the legal status of. things. But so I. I love But I love weddings. Oh, I love. weddings. I love them. I get mistied at. every wedding. My son just got engaged. I can't wait. Like, it's going to be so. because I think that I think there's. something so fun about like a big group. of people all getting together and. having a party over something as noble. as two people finding each other in a. world of 8 billion people. And like I. think there's something about like a. group of people all getting up and going.

like we're going to be cheering for you. and we're going to be here for you. And. like I love good food and I love like I. love being with people. Like I I think. if I think if the the first time. everybody you love is in one room as. your funeral, you're an idiot. Like I. think there's something really. beautiful. Like I I have to tell you I. um you know I got divorced many years. ago. But I have amazing photos of my mom from. my wedding cuz it's like how many times. in your life do you put on like a fancy. dress and have your hair done and all.

that stuff? And my mom lost her hair so. many times because of chemo and all. those other things. and when she passed. like she was so sick for so many years. and I was so afraid when she died that. that's how I would remember her is in. that bed sick and I have to tell you I. look at those pictures of my mom from. that wedding smiling so big and you know. with and it I'm so glad I have those. photos I'm so glad and I wouldn't have. had them if we hadn't had this stupid. party you know and I remember. deliberately saying to the DJ cuz I was. what 22 yeah I was 22 I remember saying.

to the DJ do not play that stupid. chicken dance thing. Do not play that. Like, we're not doing that stupid thing. We're not happening. And I don't know. when it happened, but my mom must have. like gone to him and been like, "Play. the chicken dance." And he was like, "I'm not supposed to play the chicken. dance." And she was like, "Yeah, but. you're playing the chicken dance." She. They played the chicken dance. And I. tell you something, I I will have that. memory of my mother with that doing that. stupid chicken dance in my head until I. die. And it I'm really glad I have it. Like, I'm really glad it's there. So, I. tell you, like I I think weddings are a.

blast. And I think if you're in love. with somebody and you love them so much. that you're like, "All right, we're. going to do our thing, dude. Go have a. wedding. Don't get married. Don't get. married. Have a wedding." Because. getting married and having a wedding. that you don't have anything to do with. the When have you ever gone to a wedding. and at the end of the wedding said, "Um, I just need to see the paperwork. Could. Could you just show me the marriage. license now? I just need to make sure. before I give you the gift and before I. leave, I just want to make sure. everything was notorized properly." No. No one did you didn't see wedding. You.

don't I've never saw my parents'. marriage license. They could have made. the whole thing up. I don't know. But. have the party. Have the party. Why not. have the party? And don't have somebody. else's party. You just described. somebody else's party where you wait for. 3 hours. SCREW THAT. WHY would you even. have the sit down dinner portion? The. pastor derves is the best part. So just. do that. You can do it however you want. Like if there's a core message to my. book and to my approach to relationships. is you get to do it however you want. You know what almost all the people in.

my office have in common? They all tried. to do it a particular way that somebody. told them that's how they're supposed to. do it and it didn't work and it's got a. terrible track record. Like like the way. that most people do it fails 56% of the. time. So do it different. YOU GOT PLENTY. of room to do it different. And the only. two people that are qualified to decide. how to do it really are the two of you. out of eight billion choices. You picked. each other. throw whatever party you.

want to. If your friends love you, they're going to love that party. AND. EVEN IF THEY DON'T LOVE IT, THEY'RE. gonna go like, you know what, that was. them. That was very them. You know, it's. great. And this is really what me and my. partner kind of decided on. We talked. about having like a wedding or whatever. And I was like, you know what I'd love. to do? And this is really inspired by. seeing so many of my friends planning. their weddings and looking very. miserable in the process and having to. basically cut back on things they loved. in their life because they're saving. They're saving for the wedding in two. years time. So, they can't go out on.

Friday evening. They they're going to. have to cut back date night because. they've got this wedding in two years. time. Great. Great start to a marriage. And I and I just always think to myself, why don't you take say if it's 100k, let's say, that you're spending on the. wedding or if it's 10k, why don't you. just divide it in 10 and have 10 mini. parties, right? And invite lots of, you know, and then. you get all these memories. and you know the answer to that question. because who's that wedding for? It's not. for them. It's not for them. It's for. the audience. And the more this is this. is why we're driving a 100 miles an hour.

towards a brick wall in our culture. because we are now doing it for the. audience. We're not doing it for us. anymore. And we have to live in our. skin. We have to live in our own lives. We have to live in our own. relationships. So what we're doing for. the audience because it looks good for. the audience. Like this is why we've. become a culture with white teeth and. rotting gums because we don't actually. care what it is. is we care what it. looks like. That's why so many people. that three weeks ago were # blessed #.

bestwife ever are in my office having a. consultation and are having an affair. and are have because underneath that. that air of and by the way how many. celebrities how many celebrities are. denying I have I have celebrity clients. who their their press releases their. interviews they're talking about how. happy they are. They're in my office. were actively negotiating the. dissolution of their relationship. They. haven't lived together because they. lived in their separate homes on. separate coasts for the last year and a.

half, but they show up for each other at. the red carpet and they do their thing. and then they part ways and don't talk. to each other. But why why are we. selling? Because we're selling a dream. to people. We're selling a dream. And. see what's interesting to me is I. actually think reality is prettier than. the dream. And so if why would you start. your relationship. with a a a an homage to fakeness or to. someone else's vision of things? Why not. start it with an authentic expression of.

who you are to each other and how much. you mean to each other and like then the. paperwork, whatever. The paperwork's the. paperwork. Do you have celebrity clients who are. literally in fake relationships? Yeah, 100%. 100%. I have celebrity. clients that are in fake relationships. I have celebrity clients that are in. financial arrangement fake. relationships. I had this big conversation with my. friends the other day because you know. there's a couple of like big celebrity.

names who've broken up um that we're. aware of and I went back through their. Instagram. Oh yeah. Just to see the way that they portrayed. their relation because whenever you see. a celebrity relationship it's like. perfect perfect over. Yeah. Well they do what I they do what I call. the Rosie O'Donnell, right? Because. Rosie O'Donnell. for years there were rumors that she was. a lesbian and she did this whole thing. about how she had a crush on Tom Cruz. and she's not a lesbian and she has a. crush on Tom Cruz and she's not a. lesbian and d and then finally one day.

she's like of course I'm a lesbian. Everyone knows I'm a lesbian. Everyone's. known that for years. And I felt like. it's like you just gas lit the whole. culture. Like and that's all celebrities. do is they just gaslight us about their. relationships. Like they they just do. the like oh we're so in love. We're so. all these vicious rumors started by. people that hate us. And meanwhile, yeah, the whole thing's eroded. But see, that's not a celebrity alone phenomenon. Like, what's great about celebrities is. they have enough distance between them. that they can hide that because most of. them own a home in Miami, own a home in.

LA, own a home in New York, and then. they have some place in Europe usually. or Italy. Like, they have enough room to. lose each other and to be okay with it. and just be like, "Yeah, we're living. our lives." They just have to be careful. about not being seen out with other. people. I I always wonder if the public. portrayal of a perfect relationship. correlates to a bad one, if you know. what I mean. Like I think the people. that would sit on Valentine's Day, sprinkle the rose petals, then they'd. get their puppy and their husband, and.

then they'd say, "Right, can you take. that photo?" They're probably taking 20. or 30 photos. For me, in my head, I go, people that like publicly portray a. perfect relationship. Is it is that like. a a cloak of the insecurity or is it. I think so. I mean, I think that that. and again, this is a function largely of. social media, but I think there is um. but we all sort of it works and that's. why I I think people keep doing it, right? Is like it's there's a bad reward. system at play here. But like I I so I. live in Manhattan and I live um right.

near and my office is right near the. vessel and the vessel is this amazing. beautiful sculpture in in Manhattan in. uh in in the West Chelsea and my office. actually overlooks the vessel. It's. beautiful in the Hudson Yards area. And. so people, tourists from all over come. to take a picture by the vessel. And so every time I'm walking to and. from the office, I pass the vessel. And. I there are always at least a hundred. people taking pictures by the vessel. And I find it absolutely hilarious.

because one of the things you see all. the time, and it's usually women, but. men sometimes are guilty of it, is the. photo of the person pretending that. they're not having their photo taken. So, it's like they're just sort of. standing there like this or like they. look over this way and their friend is. taking the picture from over here. And I. think to myself, when you post that, yeah, what are who took that picture? Or is it. are we to believe that the paparazzi. were following you? Like you're you're.

just a regular person like there's like. so clearly you set this up. But here's. the thing like the thing about us as. humans is I don't know that we look at. that photo and go what is what is that? Like I mean look at like high we just. like look at high fashion photos in like. any magazine Vogue L things like that. Look at the position of people's bodies. like oh that seriously pause this. whatever you're doing and look do that. like. then pause it. bizarre no one sits you know again.

visually looks good I get it maybe it. makes the clothes look a certain way no. one sits like that. so the thing of like the rose petals and. the. like who does that really if they're. doing it are they doing it because they. think that's what you're supposed to do. cuz they saw it right all those rose. petals All those performative, we're. madly in love. Look at how in love we. are. Look guys, quick. Look at how love. look at how in love we are. It's shower. sex. It's It looks good, but all you're. really doing is just putting on a show.

And that show leads you right to my. office. And the reason we like the show is. because we want to believe in the fairy. tale. We because if we see it in my. favorite celebrity couple, then it. almost keeps the hope alive. For me, it. it's it's the the antidote for the. statistics around divorce. It's the. antidote for the heartbreak I saw in my. home. It's the antidote for the misery I. see around me. Is look, fairy tales exist just like Disney. And. that's why we want it. I get that. And I think I understand why.

we do that. But I think it's also like. pornography. It's an it's a I don't want to say an. idealized version. It's a stylized. version of something people actually are. doing. But if you start to to think your. sex life is inferior because it doesn't. look like pornography, you're you're modeling it against. something that's very unnatural and not. real and that is not indicative of what. actual sex looks like or feels like or.

or how it works logistically or how. bodies work logistically. So you're. you're we're we're getting educated the. wrong ways. And it's again not to tie. you know go from like marriage to sex to. death but it's the same problem I had in. my master's thesis. It really was like. we convince what we always we shield. people from death. We hide it from. people. Like if someone if I said my. grandmother's dying I want to take my. kids to sea. You'd be like what kind of.

sick bastard are you? Like if you said. oh I'm I'm going to walk around the. graveyard or I'm You don't talk about. death. You don't talk about these. Why? Why? If these are things that are. important, if these are milestone things. in our lives, not talking about it is. not going to prevent it from happening. So, why not talk about honestly like. what's really going on? Like I have to. tell you, you ever, you know, again, the. antidote to some of this stuff is to say. like, "Who took that picture? That's. weird." Like you didn't know they were.

taking it. Oh, cuz you were looking in. the other direction. Like, why not just. start saying like, "Yeah, I'm not going. to be full of shit." I remember many. years ago. I remember like waking up in. New York City and my ex-girlfriend from. many years ago was like pissed off at me. because it was Valentine's Day and I. hadn't text her and like um told said. happy birthday to her, but I was in New. York so I was in a different time zone. So it was 6:00 a.m. where I was where I. was. I hadn't even woken up yet. and. she'd sent me a screenshot of another. couple who were like with the with the,

you know, the rose petals and the roses. and stuff and she was infuriating. herself. based on an Instagram post she'd seen of. another couple and I was being attacked. because I wasn't meeting that standard. Yeah. And this is why I I think we are. living in a moment where there is more. comparison than ever. You must see that in your office, right? I see it in my office constantly. I see. it in life constantly. But it's not. just, by the way, it's not just in the. relationship thing, though. Cuz of. course, people post their greatest hits. People are constantly flaunting their.

relationship and showing everyone their. relationship. But it's not even just. your relationship with your significant. other. It's your relationship with. yourself. If I see one more person. posting their workout routine, their. their sauna and cold plunge, the diet. routine of the, you know, their. hashtagbeast mode. If I see one more. person posting how their parenting. routine and the wonderful intricate. snacks that they make for their. children, like all day long there is an. idealized stylized version of every. single aspect of our life that is so.

much better than the gag reel that we're. living. and we're watching it and we're. comparing ourselves to it and our. partner to it and we're going, "How come. my partner doesn't look like that? They. don't look like that." Like all these. videos of the person like getting up in. THE MORNING, WHO SET up the camera? Did. someone set up a camera? Like, and and I. really feel sometimes like I'm the crazy. person going, "Guys, do you not see. this? Like, do you not see this? Do you. not see that this is what's making you.

unhappy? You're unhappy with yourself. You're unhappy with your partner. You're. unhappy with your relationship with your. partner because you're comparing it to. fiction. And and and because it's on. your phone instead of on the movie. screen, you think it's real. Sometimes. comparison can wake us up to things that. we needed to know, though. And I think. your the story of you going to the theme. park that day, which I was reading. about, and seeing that couple who. were pretty idyllic. Yeah. highlighted to you that maybe this.

wasn't the right. They just had their. 20th wedding anniversary last week. Yeah. Yeah. What happened? So, you were at a theme. park with them. So, I was with my ex-wife and our young. kids, and these were college friends of. ours because we were college. sweethearts, my ex-wife and I. And we. were at a theme park with them, with our. all young kids. And, you know, my. ex-wife's a lovely person. I think she'd. say nice things about me, too. I'm a. nice place to visit, but you wouldn't. want to live there. Um, I think she'd. tell you I'm a spectacular ex-husband.

and have have leave a lot to be desired. as a husband. Probably fair comment. And. I would say that, you know, there's a. lot of people I love that I wouldn't. want to be married to, and she's one of. them. Um, she's very happily remarried. for a long time to a great guy. And we. were at this theme park with them, and. they'd been married for roughly the same. number of years that we were at the. time. And I remember the kids wanted to. go on some ride, and it was like the. permutations of seating. It was like. three and three. And they had two kids. So, we were like, "Okay, I'll sit with. these two kids. You sit with these two.

kids." and they said, "Great. We're. going to just hold hands and go for a. walk.". And they like held hands and they. started walking away. And I remember. looking at them and thinking, "Well, they really like each other." Like, like. they really like each other. And I. remember thinking like, I don't feel. that way about her. Like, I love her, but I don't feel that way about her. And. it just it wasn't like, and then I went. home and we got divorced. we together. for some more time. But I remember when.

we decided to divorce, we had some very honest conversations. with each other about the marriage and. about when we'd felt, you know, we were. very good at postgaming it because we. stayed friends. And I said to her, you know, I remember. this moment when we were at the theme. park with and and she goes, "Oh my god, I remember that exact same moment." And. I said, "Yeah." And I thought like they. went off and were holding hands and I. remember thinking like I don't love her. like that. And she was like, "Jim, I'm.

not making this up. I thought the exact. same thing." She's like, "I remember. seeing it and thinking like, yeah, like. I don't like if they took our kids on. this ride, we wouldn't be holding hands. walking through the park." And. why? We just didn't have that between us. What is that? I don't know. That's magic. I don't. know. That thing. That thing. that magic. part that nobody can really explain. I. don't know. It's the thing. It's the. reason why I've never been homophobic. because I I happen to be heterosexual, but I couldn't explain why. Like, I.

don't know if it's a combination of. biology, cultural pressure. I have no. idea. I just know what sparks something. in me is what sparks something in me. And I don't think I have a right to say. to another adult who has those feelings. about another adult that they have that. they're wrong and I'm right or. something. I I genuinely just feel like. I don't know there's something magical. about love. I mean there's something. magical about romantic attraction and. the feeling of like deep connection to. each other. I mean I've known th that. couple now for the entire 28 years or.

that they've been married and they are. legit super into each other but they are. the least performative people you'd ever. meet. They're very they're very focused. on each other. Like they really like. each other. like he. she refers to him as her boyfriend. They've been married for 28 years. They. have two kids that are like adults now. And they she'll be like, "Oh, well, my. boyfriend's coming home next week from, you know, work trip." And and like she. means her husband, but like she refers. to him as that. And like he refers to.

her as my girl. Like he's like, "Yeah, well my girl and I were going to go do. this." And I'm always like, "Dude, like. how are 28 years of marriage and that's. how you guys feel about each other?". Like, and it's legit. It's not like a. thing. It's like legit. I don't know. If. I knew that, man, I'd find a way to tell. people to do it and bottle it. Like, I. don't know. I'll tell you what it is. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's fun. to even be around. Like, it's fun to be. It when you're not in a challenging. marriage, being around that is like the.

warmest, most wonderful place. It's not. surprising to me that their their two. sons are like two of the most amazing. young men I've ever met. How do they argue? I think they I've never watched them. argue, I imagine. And so I imagine one. answer would be privately. But um. from what I understand because I have. tried to reverse engineer a little bit. with them like what is it? Because I've. talked about them enough in media now. that they know I'm like I always text. them like hey I talked about you. Um and. when the the the book they were like oh. you know I was like hey pa whatever you.

know and they they thought it was quite. funny. I I think they play fair like. they um I don't know they never lost the. plot. They seem to really. they I hope this comes out the right. way. They love their sons. They really. love their sons. They're two amazing. parents, but it seems to me like they. both they view each other as the most. important thing. And she's always. looking out for his happiness and he's. always looking out for hers. And it's an. equal measure. Like I think she is very.

focused on him and what will make him. happy and he's very focused on her and. what will make her happy and they both. take tremendous joy in each other's joy. and I think they both feel and they have. I will say they have been through some. things like she had metastatic breast. cancer at one point she had all kinds of. and they they weathered that storm they. weathered that storm with grace humor. and even deeper connection. And I again.

I I I don't know if it's partly luck. that they like just hit the lottery with. each other, but I I think some of it is. just that they they pay attention like. it's important to them. You're in a relationship, but you're not. married anymore. You were married. previously. Will you ever get married again? I've said before that I don't think. marriage is important to me. I I don't. marriage from where I'm sitting is a.

contract that was written by the state. that is supposed to define. in some general way what this. relationship is and create a set of. rules that govern it. And if you do a. prenup, you can change that set of. rules, but you're still saying, you. know, I really want to get the. government involved in this situation. I. I have no part of me that in my. relationship goes, "We really need to. get the government involved in this." I.

just don't. That's just not in me. And I. And it's not only not in me, it's just. seems absurd to me. Marriage seems absurd. To me, mar I understand why people get. married. I think I understand it better. than most people, but I it just to me. doesn't make any sense. Why do they get. married? I think we need a lot more time. I think. it's cultural pressure. Okay. I think it's performative. I think it's because we live in a.

society, if not a world, that presumes. marriage is a good idea. I think that. that is tied to medieval institutions. It's tied to things that are way before. us. And it's tied to partly land. ownership. It's partly tied to religious. concepts. It's partly, you know, what. Freud talks about in civilization. It's. discontents. It's so we're not all. killing each other over mates. It's. it's, you know, we've structured society. around this idea of turning pair bonds, which by the way is a very healthy.

permutation with which to raise. children. And it's very it's fits our. biology quite nicely, you know, in terms. of the amount of time that a child's in. gestation versus, you know, but I I I. think we've just we're just like running. a program that it was here before us and. that we've been taught is how it's. supposed to be. This is what you do. Like again, ask the question, you think it's a bad idea, don't you? Getting married. Yeah.

I think it's an incredibly bad idea. I. think it's an incredibly dangerous idea. I I don't think it's a bad idea. I think. it's a dangerous idea. There's a. difference between those two things. Like skydiving is a dangerous idea. I'm. not saying it's a bad idea, but it's a. dangerous idea. It It depends on how. much joy you place on that thing, right? Like for me, the joy of jumping out of a. plane as compared to the danger of. jumping out of a plane precludes me from. jumping out of planes. Maybe I'm missing. out on something. That's okay. I'll live. with it. There's lots of cool stuff to. do. I haven't gotten bored yet. Marriage.

is kind of the same thing. Like I think. marriage is again like because turn. around the question which is we know. facts facts marriage is overwhelmingly. unsuccessful. It is way more dangerous than skydiving. Yes you die from the skydiving but the. chances of a catastrophic skydiving. incident is like 0.00003. and a one where you die is 0.00001.

It's like very limited the chances of. dying from skydiving. Whereas the. chances of divorce again 56% divorce. rate. How many stay together who are. unhappy and they just stay together. because they don't give up half their. stuff or for religious reasons or. whatever. This is a technology with an. unbelievably bad failure rate. And more people die from marriage or. skydiving. Well, I think more people wish they were. dead from marriage than star skydiving. I think most people's sense of self, many people's sense of self dies as part. of an unhappy marriage. Like it's not a. question of will you die. It's that.

you're alive and not living your life in. a way that's enjoyable or in a way. that's authentic to who you are. And I. think a lot of people are doing that as. a function of the choice that they made. of marriage. And again, I'm not saying. don't get married. But what I'm saying. is when someone says, "I'm getting. married." Why is it impolite to say why? Why? You're about to do something. incredibly dangerous that fails so much. of the time. Why not just say why? I'd.

like to I'm not saying why would you do. that? It's stupid. I'm saying why? Cuz. most people's answer doesn't make any. sense. Well, because you know I don't want to. be alone. Wait, you have to get married. to not be alone? Join a church group. I. don't know. Join a baking squad. Join a. softball team. You won't be alone. What. does that mean? Well, I want to have, you know, regular sex. Okay. I don't. know that getting married is the. solution to that. Like, it's not a.

guarantee of regular sex. Like, that's. not, you know, so if if the question, first of all, you're not even allowed to. ask the question why. If anything, if. you don't say, "Oh my god, that's so. great. You have intimacy issues.". People say for the kids, you know, it's. good for the kids. And. which kids? The kids you've already had. or the kids you're going to have. You're. saying, "We're getting married so that. we can." And by the way, again, okay, you're saying society it's good for I. mean, I think what you're saying is it's. good for a a mother and a father in a. household with children together, right?

So, the polarity of male and female, again, I I know a lot of samesex couples. that have raised very successful, happy. children. So, maybe you're saying a two. parent family is a good thing, that it. doesn't have to be male and female, whatever. Okay, that's all true. What. does a marriage license have to do with. that? What does the government getting. involved have to do with that? It gives me security. What What's security? Security. You're. saying something that fails 56% of the. time makes you feel like you get. security. That's a really weird sense of. security. If I said to you, "I've got an. airbag in my car that doesn't deploy 70%. of the time." Would you drive around.

feeling safe? Or would you go like, "This is a lottery I don't want to. participate in. I'm just going to strap. myself in and do something else cuz I'm. not going to rely on this 30% airbag.". You wouldn't have a job. Well, that's that's main reason. I don't. know. I mean, listen, I I've been saying. for years that I think I have tremendous. job security, and it makes me very happy. on one level, and it makes me very sad. at another level, that I have such job. security. I think I think I don't think.

we're getting better at this. I think. we're getting worse at it. And I I don't. think by the time I retire, which isn't. that far away, like I I I don't think. we're going to get so good at it that. I'm going to be out of a job. As an entrepreneur, I'm always looking. for ways to connect and to create. And. that's why I decided to launch the. conversation cards. I turned to Shopify. who also sponsored this podcast. And. Shopify made it so easy to set up an. online store and reach all of you no. matter where you are in the world. I. remember the challenges we faced when we.

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sign up by going to shopify.com/bartlet. The link is in the description below. More and more people are getting. prenups. said to me that a lot of people. contact you these days asking for you to. help with prenups. One of the. interesting things we were talking about. before we started filming was. it's really uncomfortable to turn to. your partner and ask them for prenup. I know a lot of people say that and I. think it's a question of how you enter. the conversation again. like, you know, I I guess cuz I get paid to talk and I'm. used to talking sometimes about. difficult things with a judge or or.

revealing, you know, things that are. hard to reveal about someone and trying. to make sure that they're not viewed. negatively even though they might have. behaved negatively. So, I think prenup, it's all about how you bring up the. conversation and and my preferred entry. point for a prenup when I talk to. someone is every single person who gets. married has a prenup. It's either written by the government or. it's written by the two people who love. each other more than the other 8 billion. people in the world. I personally think. that the two people in a marriage are.

better qualified to create the rule set. of their marriage than politicians they. don't know. Especially when you consider. the nature of politicians. They won a. popularity contest. They managed to. offend as few people as possible and. they change constantly. So, you're. signing up for the most legally. significant thing you're ever going to. do other than die. with a rule set that no one ever. explains to you in advance and that can.

be changed. by by people who don't know you based on. who won a popularity contest. Okay, that. seems smart to you. or or do the two of. you decide what the rules are going to. be and then starting from the beginning. which is where you are if you're doing a. prenup because you're about to get. married. Okay, then you live your life. in accordance with that rule set. together and when one of you is. deviating from it or when a red flag. goes up like you go, "Hey, how come.

you're doing it that way? Remember we. have that rule set." And so I I like. that. I think prenups I think prenups. even having a conversation about a. prenup I think is a very healthy. exercise for a couple. I cannot tell you. how many people since our first. conversation have stopped me on the. streets of New York City and said, "I. got into the coolest conversation with. my girlfriend about prenups and marriage. after I saw you and Stephen talking.". I've had I've had probably like two.

people a week say that to me. It's it's. a very I always say to these people I'm. like you do weird stuff in bed. Like. you're watching Diary of a CEO in bed. It's like. it's you know there's other stuff like. I'm not great on the shower thing but in. bed you don't you know it's I like. Stephen too but that's not the time. Maybe it is. But they I guess it is. Anytime's a good. time. Please don't. But they know I'm not trying to hurt. your. I know you broke 7 million. I don't want. to screw it up. But I I I I do think. that there is um there is something to.

this conversation. And I do think. sometimes like, you know, look, you're. you're in a relationship, you've had a. hard conversation with your partner. Yeah. And when you're in it, it's not fun and you kind of go like, how are we ever going to get out of. this? Is this how it's going to be now? Like we're just we have this feeling and. it's like awkward and it's weird. And. then you make it through it. And then. the next morning you wake up and maybe. things are still a little weird or. something, but like oh yeah. And then. like I like to believe that then there's. this feeling of like, oh, hey, we did. that thing. Like that thing was a little.

weird. It was a little hard. We lost the. plot, but then we got it back and we're. still here. Look at us. Yeah. Look at us. Like, yay, go us. You. know, I think there's real value in that. I. think that again, the hard thing to do. and the right thing to do are usually. the same thing. It's hard to talk about. when this ends. It's actually the thing. I'm proud of most in my relationship is. exactly what you just described there. I'm not proud of our relationship being. perfect because it's not. I'm proud of. how imperfect it is and how we. continually resolve the conflict with.

without coming out the other side. resenting each other. We come out the. other side proud of each other. We're. like, you know that meme where I think. it was the Hot Ones meme where they're. like, "Look at us. Who would have. thought?". And that's like the thing that my. girlfriend turns to me and says. continually is, "I'm so proud. of. how much we've got through. because she she refers to it like the. roots have got even longer." And going. back to your conversation about prenups, it reminds me of what we were talking. about before we started recording. This. idea that people don't want to confront. it because you tried to get a stand at a.

wedding convention as a divorce lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I So I want. to say one thing about what you said. before that because I I your verbiage is. very interesting to me because you said, you know, in my relationship, you know, we're not it's not perfect, but I'm. proud of X, Y, and Z. And I have to tell. you, like I I don't know, that sounds. pretty perfect. Like I think that things. are imperfect like and that's that's. perfect. Like I there's no such thing as. a perfect relationship like that ever.

And that's perfect. Like it's perfect. Like it I I genuinely believe we're. perfect. Like I think we're all flawed. and we're perfect like because we're. authentic. We're real. So So I I I think. that's a really important if people if. perfection is the standard we will all. fall short. I think the reality is that. we are all perfectly imperfect. And. that's really beautiful. But yes, the the the wedding so so in in. in the United States, I don't know in.

the UK, but in the United States, we. have these things. They're called. wedding bizaars or wedding expos or. wedding fairs. And it somebody came up. with this and it's a brilliant business. move, which is you rent a gigantic hall. or a small hall depending on where some. of them are done at like giant. convention centers. And you know, people. who are associated with the wedding. industrial complex, you know, they pay. to have a booth. So there's. photographers, there's bakers, there's. and and you know, every table has like. something. The photographers have. different pictures. The cake people.

might have like little samples of cake. You know, there's all the little grab. bags and things that people give out as. wedding gifts. There's, you know, uh. different uh travel things related to. your honeymoon and where you might go. There's different web websites for, you. know, your registry. Like, there's so. many wedding related, wedding adjacent. businesses. This is a multi-billion. dollar industry. So, I reached out to. like four or five different smaller and. bigger wedding expos. And I said in.

summon substance, I'd like to get a. table. And they said, great, photographer, baker. What do you do? And. I said, "Well, I'm a lawyer and I I do. divorce and family law, but it's just. going to be themed around prenups. It's. not going to be in any way negative. about marriage. It's going to be, you. know, just a congratulations on your. engagement. Have you talked about a. prenup?" And then I'll have brochures. and things and you can, you know, make. sure that they pass muster, that I don't. say anything that would be offensive to. anyone. I don't want anyone to be. uncomfortable, any other vendors to be.

uncomfortable. But there's literally. hundreds of vendors at this thing. So. there's no reason. Not one wedding expo would rent a table. to me. They refused my money. They would. not take it. They would not take it. No. matter how flowery I said I'd make the. language, no matter how respectful to. the institution of marriage I said I. would be, they would not let me buy a. table. They wouldn't take my money. And. those tables are not cheap. It's. thousands of dollars to get a table at.

Wedding Expo. They would not take my. money. Even though almost 60% of people. end in divorce and it's like a almost an. inevitability, the probability is. yeah, there's going to be a conversation about. how we separate. As I've said before, every single. marriage ends. It ends in death or. divorce. The majority of them end in. divorce. The majority of them end in. divorce. Why wouldn't you allow me to. have a table that just says. if you'd like to have a prenup here? I'm. not even trying to sell a prenup on you. like you're getting engaged. You need a.

prenup. It's just have you talked about. a prenup and information about that pre? They would not even let me in the room. and I because because it shatters the. illusion. It's reality. They don't like. reality. They don't see reality. as what it is. Which I think, by the. way, is quite romantic. I think there's. something very nice about talking to. your partner about, you know what, I'm. afraid of losing you. I don't want to lose you to death, even. though I know someday I have to. But I.

don't want to lose you to divorce. either. But man, almost 60% of marriages. end in divorce. And if we got divorced, like what would we be? Like I hope we. wouldn't hate each other. Like I hope. I'd still love you and care about you or. I'd still want you to be well. Even if. you left me, I wouldn't hate you. Like I. don't have one exgirlfriend. that I go, "Man, I hate that person.". Like, I wish all of them joy. I hope. they're all happy. like our our chapter. together ended, but I wish all of them.

joy. People don't like to go into things. without optimism, though. And the the. conversation around should we get a. prenup almost sounds like I think we're. going to break up someday. I think you can hear it that way, but I. don't think it has to be that. I agree. with you about the optimism. I think. people would prefer to look at the. bright side of things and to be. optimistic. And I am not suggesting like. I don't believe in fairy tales. I'm a. realist. That doesn't mean I get up. every day just thinking about nothing.

but death and divorce and how miss like. that's not life is beautiful and life's. meant to be lived and like what you. don't want to sit like I'm not going to. sit at a wedding and be like do you know. how many percentage of this people are. going to get divor. I don't view it that. way. I think it's wonderful. But be realistic about things. Like I I. don't want to get ill, but I have a. physical every year. I go to the doctor. every year. Like I like to know what's. going on. I like to be a realist. I like. to I don't plan on crashing my car, but. I like knowing that I have a seat belt.

and an airbag. And by the way, if my. seat at my my seat belt and airbag. aren't working, I would like to know in. advance because I'm driving as if. they're going to work. If you told me, "By the way, Jim, your seatelt and your. airbag aren't working." I would drive. very, very, very carefully, right? So, I. think it's the same thing. Like, just we. can't have an honest conversation and be. optimistic. Divorce in the US is very. different from divorce in the UK. And I. I actually learned, well, I think it is.

I learned this from watching. several things, but one video comes to. mind from a couple of weeks ago. You'll. know the case. There's a black actor who. is currently posting a lot on his social. media about how his wife is like chasing. him down for child support. Oh yes. Yes. I don't remember his name. I'm bad at celebrity names. unless I represent them. But yes, I know who he is. And he was he said on a couple of shows, but he went on his Instagram and said. like my wife who I've broken up with who. like basically doesn't really have a job. at the moment or is making some money. from some some Instagram work. Yeah. is.

she's got this like pack of lawyers who. email me. and demand to see my bank statements. because. I've been doing well lately. I've got a. couple of new movies and stuff and she. wants to make sure she gets more money. for me and the kids based on his. success. And I never realized it was. like that. I never realized that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's modifiable. It's. modifiable. Child support, for example, is modifiable every 3 years when there's. a 30% change in income up or down. So, if I have a wife and then we have four. kids and then I break up with her.

and when I break up with her I'm making. a million dollars a year. and then I'm making $100 million a year. What. goes up? Child support goes up. to like what what what are the numbers? What. depends on the percentages in in New. York? One child is 17%, two is 25, three. is 29, and four is 31% of your gross. income. of my gross income. Gross income less FICA 00765 social. security Medicare. If my gross income is. a hund00 million. So theoretically there are caps on the. combined parental income.

everywhere. Yes, pretty much. But judges have a. tremendous amount of discretion based on. a variety of factors including. things like what was the lifestyle of. the children during the marriage? What. are the reasonable needs of the. children? Like celebrity divorces. I. will tell you. there are some legitimate separate needs. that celebrities, the children of. celebrities need. Like they, you know, security for example. What's the biggest child support. payments you've ever heard of?

Well, I mean, Diddy had I think it was. $20,000 a month for a period of time. Um, he's kind of a well-known one and it. was very well publicized. The most I've. ever had in a case is I had a client who. got $65,000 a month in child support. But it it covered a lot of things. It. covered a portion of private school. tuition. It covered a security detail. It covered, you know, these were very. very high net worth, you know, public. figures. What kid needs $65,000 a month?

Well, the kid doesn't get the money. The. parent who has primary physical custody. gets the money. and they can do with it whatever they. want. They so they could go spend it in. Vegas. Correct. That's that's not fair. You should have. to provide receipts. Well, what I've. always said is I mean, first of all, the. system's complicated enough without. people having to provide receipts to. check the math of a person and what. they're spending the child support on. Like, it's already overwhelmed enough. and it's already difficult enough. Like, listen, what you're proposing would. create a lot of additional work for me, so I appreciate it, but it it is from my.

perspective, it is a um it is a. potentially very dangerous thing. What I. always tell people is getting married. without a prenup is a fairly risky. activity. Having a child with someone. is a is the most risky activity in. relationships in terms of of the amount. of emotional and financial damage a. person can do to you. Have a kid with. them. Having a kid with somebody, they.

can weaponize that child. They can. alienate that child. they can use that. child's needs to piggy back onto. financial needs. There's there's so much. stuff a person can do to torture you if. they have a kid with you. And there's so. much legal wrangling and rambling to to. do. And what I'll tell you is it it. you know I've had CL I have a client who. spent somewhere in the realm of $100,000. in legal fees arguing over whether. Thanksgiving should begin on Wednesday.

and end on Sunday or whether it would. begin on Thursday morning and end on. Thursday evening. Now that person's. worth, you know, seven or $800 million. So h 100red grand to them is not a lot. of money. Most people, myself included, I'd just. eat turkey another day. Like, it's not. worth that amount of money, right, to. have that argument. That's why having a kid with someone, you're opening up the door to. potentially tremendous amount of.

battles. Whereas, if you're arguing over. a $50,000 bank account and you spend. $30,000 in legal fees, even if you won, you only won $20,000. If you lost, you. lost significant. So it it it forces a. certain rationality into the. transaction. Whereas your time with your. kids, people could attribute whatever value. they want to that. I've had clients who. fought over minuscule things about. children that to me would be minuscule. to them were incredibly important. You said that the two big reasons why.

people divorce are infidelity and money. Yeah. Is it a loss of money, a lack of money, the person goes poor? Um it's that's a big piece of it. losing. money, um, ga gambling money or losing. money unexpectedly, bad business and. investment decisions. There was a period. of time where I did a lot of divorces. because people decided they were going. to try to be day traders and all of a. sudden people's, you know, they were. like borrowing against retirement. accounts. Yeah, they were learning the. hard way that that if you short stocks, there's almost no limit to how much. money you can lose. Um,

crypto divorces, crypto's big. I did a couple of cryp. divorces relate that where crypto became. very important and whether it was on a. hard wallet or whether it was I mean. hiding money with crypto very some years. ago when crypto was first sort of on the. scene when when I really should have. been buying Bitcoin because it was like. you know $3 or $5. Um there there was a. period of time where most divorce. lawyers and most judges did have didn't. understand what crypto even was. I mean, try to explain to a 75year-old judge who. has an AOL email address what.

cryptocurrency was and the difference. between Ethereum and Bitcoin like and. why you're concerned that they might. have these funds on a hard wallet and. they're looking at you going like what I. have I have no idea what this is, you. know? So, it's tricky. I mean, there's. these are the things we as a divorce. lawyer, one of the things that makes it. a very exciting job is that we're. constantly. we're getting an education in all of. these things. Like I represent I. remember I represented a surgeon and I. learned everything about how surgeons. get paid, how they make money, how they.

hide money, what their expenses might. be. And so then the next time I did a. surgeon, I'm like, "Oh, I know this.". You know, the first time I represented. someone who owned a hedge fund or was a. partner in a hedge fund, I had to learn. about how capital accounts work and how. people are paid and where you might be. able to hide money. Have you ever seen. that where someone's like publicly. thought to be a billionaire and then you. look at their bank statements during a. divorce and you realize that they've. basically managed to hide everything. So. they're they're basically broke. It's. all in someone else's name. Well, yeah. There's two permutations of. that. One is people who are publicly.

incredibly wealthy and then in reality. they're leveraged to the hilt and broke. like way broke. Um that happens a lot. and that happens a lot with celebrities. Um, celebrities are very often leveraged. to the hilt because they had a hit. record or they had a hit movie or two. and then they think, "Oh, everything I. do is going to be like this." And so. they just go out and buy tons of stuff. and there's always people who loan you. money, you know, especially if you're a. public figure and you have some money, right? A couple of million bucks. You. you can get a couple million more real.

easy. So, and then it just very rapidly. and they buy everybody else. They have, you know, there's always clingers around. the person, you know, the whole. entourage that a lot of whom are. siphoning money off of people. So, there's a lot of people that look very. wealthy and are dead broke. Um, and and. I have a lot of those. How does that play out in court when the. wife finds out that their partner or the. husband finds out that their wife was. they're not happy? They're not happy. And and um and it's hard because they. think they have proof of something. Like.

they they're like, "But look, here's a. picture of him with a Ferrari." And it's. like, "Right, I can show you the papers. that he doesn't he leases that Ferrari. like it's this much of a car payment. Like I had a guy who had like three. Bentleys and a couple of you know like. McLaren. He had crazy cars and yeah it. was all leveraged to the hilt. It was. not he didn't own them. You know. what's the second permutation of that. you. the second permutation is when someone. is is um. when they've hidden the money. Yeah. They I I'm trying to find the.

right adjective that they're enough of a. sociopath that they're enough of a uh. they're enough of a malignant narcissist. or they're enough of a careful planner. that um they have created structures. that that make it almost impossible for. their spouse to get anything in the. divorce. there the the so some of the. things that people do in um in the ultra. high netw worth space. for generational wealth preservation and.

tax avoidance. have secondorder effects when they get. divorced. Right? So a lot of wealthy. people don't own very much of anything. They own companies that own properties. and they have an interest in a trust for. the benefit of their great grandchildren. that owns companies that own properties. that they then borrow against. Like. there's their whole structure is a very.

complex and they pay hundreds of. thousands of dollars to trust and. estates attorneys and accountants. So. they pay almost nothing in taxes and so. that they will have no estate issues. They will have intergenerational wealth. Well, those things make a lot of sense. from a wealth preservation and estate. planning perspective, but they make a. divorce really complicated because it's. no longer marital money. It's owned by. this trust. It's owned by this. corporation. It's owned by I only have. this percent interest in this thing,

which is why we've both benefited from. the taxation of it. So that's where it. gets like a little um what I do is is a. fascinating job because we work with you. know very very brilliant forensic. accountants who kind of go in and try to. recreate whether something was done as a. fraudulent transfer and contemplation of. divorce or whether something was done. for good faith reasons and and and you. know was done in a way that was designed. to benefit the marriage as opposed to as. divorce planning.

There must be scenarios where someone. goes into divorce. I I think I'm. divorcing you, let's say, and I think in. divorcing you, I'm going to get a big. payout. But it turns out in divorcing. you that you get a big payout because. I've got more money than you. Yeah, that happens a lot. That happens a. lot. I've actually I I I wrote an. article uh for for one of the women's. magazines um called The Last Remaining. Feminist Taboo and it it talks about a. lot of um female clients who are paying. alimony to their husbands and and it it. stings. You know, you you you you can. have a woman who's like a Bella Abzug.

like Gloria Steinum level feminist and. when she gets told, you know, that like, yeah, you got to pay him alimony, they're like, I'm sorry, what? Like, no, he's a man. He could work. Like, he can. work. He's a men get alimony. And you're. like, no, gender is a construct and sex. is actually, you know, a construct. socially. and you're a CFO of a company. and he's a really cute long-haired. musician who you married cuz he's like. fun, you know, like and you earn 4,000.

times what he earns annually. And so you. have to pay him alimony cuz it's just. math. It's God's gender blind. It's just. math. And they're like, "Yeah, no, I am. not paying alimony. He's a man. He's got. a strong back. Tell him to get a job.". By the way, I've had men in that. situation go, "Yeah, I'm not taking. alimony.". Really? They won't take. they won't take it. Alimony is like the. spousal support. Okay. Like what? But but child support. or. No, it's for your it's it's to maintain. the marital lifestyle. It's.

it's in order to rehabilitate your. earnings so that you can be so for. example um I marry a woman from the UK. who's a physician and now she's coming. to the United States because we're in. love and she's marrying me and she is. going to lose her license to practice. medicine because she's coming to the. United States and it's a different. lensure. Okay. So now she moves here in. reliance on us being married and we're. married for a couple of years and then. we divorce. She's going to need because. I now make a lot more money than her. She's going to need some money to get.

her back to a place where she's back to. her earning capacity. So if I marry Taylor Swift and we're. together for 20 years, do I get half? You do not get half usually. No. No. It's I mean, first of all, she has too. many good lawyers, I'd imagine, for you. to get half. But I you you you would. certainly I mean there was a. how much could you get me? How much could I get you from Taylor. Swift? I'd have to know how much Taylor. Swift has. I also don't think she's. she's never made it down the aisle yet, has she? But if I take her down the aisle and. then we we stay together 20 years and I. come back say, "James, it's time.".

Here's what I'm going to tell you. I'm. going to get you as much as possible. I. can't promise you anything, but I am. promising you I'm going to get you as. much as I can. I mean, you know, I'd have to know. I'd have to. know what the finances are. I would have. to. She has a billion dollars. in cash. Billion dollars in cash acquired during. the marriage or prior to the marriage. During the marriage, all acquired during the marriage, you're. getting half. There you go. You're getting half. You're getting. half. Listen, uh uh Adele's ex-husband. did very well. Um Kelly Clarkson's. ex-husband did very well. It depends on. how quite well. Look it up. Look it up.

It's out there. I don't remember the. exact numbers, but it's out there. The. the reality is is those were people she. had her most successful tour at the time. during the marriage. She had her most. successful album at the time during the. marriage. It's all a question of where. things land in the trajectory of. someone's life. If you marry someone. when they're on the comeup, like Jeff. Bezos, great example, like largest. divorce settlement probably paid in. history was to his ex-wife. Why? Because. Amazon wasn't a thing when they got.

together, right? So, so, so that was she. was there for the whole trajectory. If. he got remarried now, she's not going to. get half because she wasn't there. There's a premarital component to that. that is significant. If you got me 500 million from Taylor. Swift, then would you take like a. commission like an hour? No, it doesn't work that way. You're. prohibited from doing that. Yeah. Paid. by the We get paid by the hour. You're prohibited. I am an hourly wage earner. Like if I. worked at McDonald's, who who prohibits you? The rules. The rules that govern and by. the way, rightfully so.

Why? because you otherwise would create. an incentive for the lawyer to maximize. recovery for their client rather than. the recovery that makes sense for their. client. So like I've had cases where the. cash payout I get for my client is lower. because I want to get them more support. like child support or spousal support or. I want to get them more of the real. estate rather than the payout. So really. what we're supposed to do as lawyers is.

not be invested in the percentage of the. result. Personal injury lawyers like if. you slip and fall that's different. Last question from me is regarding me. and my partner. I never want to end up. in your consultation room. We never want to go there. If you were to give me one piece of. advice to prevent and it can't be don't. get married. Um to prevent me and my. partner ever ending up in your. consultation room. It wouldn't be don't get married. Okay. It would. What would it be? Pay attention. Just pay attention. Right.

now, you're paying attention. Like, you're paying attention. She's important. to you. You're important to her. You're. interested and you're interesting. You. know, I I I would say pay attention and. and pay attention to three things. The you, the me, and the we. Because. those are three different things. Like, you be you, cuz you're who she fell in. love with. And don't let you go too far. from shore. like you be you. Don't let. don't let anything in the world don't. let her don't let the we don't let any.

of it stop you from being you cuz you're. who she fell in love with and the she. right who she is. So there's you, there's me, there's we. So her, remember. who she is. Let her be her. Like make. sure that she takes time to be her. Make. sure you give space for her to be her. because that's who you fell in love. with. And let that person change just. like you might change sometimes from. time to time. And if things change too. much, I'm not saying resist it, but note. it. Pay attention. Say, "Hey, this is.

going on. Is it is that a good thing? Is. it a bad thing?" Like, what? You know, let's just notice it. Let's just pay. attention. And then the Wii, like the. you, the me, and the we. Like, talk. about, you know, pay attention to the. Wii. Make sure we're watering the plant. Like, make sure that that'd be the only. advice I'd ever give to anybody. It has. nothing to do with marriage. It has to. do with connection. It has to do with. love. It has to do with there's a reason. why you found the Wii, right? Like you. can be you all by yourself and she can. be her all by herself. But there's value.

in in being we and seeing each other's. blind spots and and and and and if. there's value in that, treat it like. something valuable. Don't let the world. don't let your own strengths and. weaknesses don't let anything pull you. off of that. Pay attention to you, the. mei, and the wei. And don't be afraid. The hard thing to do and the right thing. to do are usually the same thing. So if. it's harder to talk about it, it's. harder to point it out. It's harder to. say, "Hey, are we okay? Is everything. good?" Like, you know, if that's harder,

do that. Lean into that. James, we have a closing tradition on. the podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next guest, not. knowing who they're leaving it for. The. question left for you is, what is. your most controversial opinion? Oh god, you're going to be cancelled. What is my most controversial opinion? I. think. I think I alluded to it my last. conversation with you. Um,

I my most controversial opinion is that. the most important thing in people's. lives and their greatest accomplishment. should not be their children. That's a real hot like when you say to. people like I think it's if the if if. you say the most important thing that. ever happened, the greatest thing I ever. accomplished in life was having. children. I find that very um I find. that logic very strange because if you. say the most important greatest thing I. ever did in my life was having children.

Well, is then the greatest and most. important thing your children ever did. going to be having children and is the. greatest thing their children ever did. is having children? Because that's the. ideology of a virus or a cancer cell. Like it's not like growth for the sake. of growth for the sake of growth. Like I. I think there has to be a higher nobler. purpose to life than reproduction. So. I'm not an antiatalist, but I tend to when someone says to me. like my children are my greatest. accomplishment, I tend to look at them. and go like made some interesting. choices then. I guess.

science and sort of evolution and. Charles Darwin might argue that that's. exactly the point of life is. and it is on the cellular level and for. squirrels and for pigeons. and we're monkeys. Yeah, but I think we're different than. monkeys. Like if you've watched like. we're we're we're very similar in lots. of ways, but I'd like to think that that. there's something higher that we're. called to. And I don't know that. reproduction should be the highest goal. of a human being's life. I'm not one of.

these people that thinks like don't have. children, it's a terrible thing. I have. kids. I love my kids. Was great having. kids. Learned a lot about myself in. having children. Learned a lot about the. life and the what I love spending time. with them. I have a great relationship. with my sons. I look forward to being a. grandfather. But the truth is like, is. it the greatest thing I ever. accomplished in my life? Absolutely not. It's it's in the it's in the top of the. list. It's a wonderful experience I had. But it is not the thing. And I think. that's a very I don't know why that is.

such a controversial opinion. When I say. that to people, they they look at me. like I've got lobsters coming out of my. nose. There's definitely two schools of. thought there. There's the one school of. thought that you were saying something. earlier and it really at the start of. the conversation about how people lose. their identity when they have children. and it causes all of this sort of. psychological dysfunction and who am I. now? I'm attached to this thing and. where did my life as an independent. person go? You know that that's kind of the one. school of thought where. where you're resisting. become becoming all about procreation.

You're resisting becoming just a I'm. just here to be a mother father. And. then there's another group of people. that go absolutely this is me. This is. my purpose. Right. But see, I I think like. everything like we don't have to treat. dandruff with decapitation. Like I I think you can you cannot reject. the concept of having children or making. them a priority. And you can also not. make your children your entire identity. I think that you can just sort of say, "Hey, my children are incredibly. important to me. I love them. They're.

wonderful. Um, but I also have other. aspects of my life and self and other. relationships that have value to me and. I'm not going to let them all be. sacrificed at the altar of my children. Who's more likely to end up in your. office? Which school of thought? People who are obsessed with their. children. I think people who are obsessed with. their children stop paying attention to. themselves and to their partner. That's. been my experience of people who are. obsessed with their children. I don't. mean people who are focused on their. children. When I mean people who make.

their children a high priority in their. life, I'm talking about people that are. like obsessed with their children. That. their children are their this is who I. am. I am a mother. This is who I am. I. am a father. Which cuz by the way, childhood is a temporary state. Like. theoretically, you're going to have a. very close and intimate relationship on. a day-to-day basis with your spouse a. lot longer than your children. If it's. done properly, your children are. supposed to leave and go start their own. families and live their own lives.

Whereas your partner is not supposed to. in 19 years or 18 years move out. They're supposed to stay there. So it's. kind of smart to also feed. Not again, not only feed, also feed that. relationship. There's no reason why you. can't simult and by the way sometimes. being a really good supportive. person to your co-parent and loving your. wife and loving your husband is a. wonderful gift to give to your children.

It models great relationship behavior to. them. It it it's showing that you love. and respect the other person who loves. them as much as you do. Like there's so. much good in being a good parent that is. made up of being a good co-parent, a. good spouse, a good partner. So you think you're more likely to end. up in your divorce office if you're. obsessed with your children? You make your children your absolute. number one priority and your spouse. falls very far down that list. Yes, for. sure.

James, thank you. Always great to see you. I love our. conversations because they're, you know, you're a divorce lawyer and you, you. know, your practice, I guess, is dealing. with divorces, but your width of wi. wisdom and knowledge and how it all. intertwines in the most beautiful, wise, enlightening way, and just the. overarching filter of you not being. afraid to say things that most people. would wouldn't say, you not being afraid. to be politically correct provides a a. message which is so important and quite. um unfortunately rare, but is so.

everything you say is so. obvious in the sense that it's common. sense, but it's common sense that's. completely uncommon. That means a lot to me. That's what I found in your book as. well. I found the same level of brevity. and wisdom and experience and diversity. of experience which ties into these. central ideas. Everyone, if you didn't. go by the book last time, you have to go. buy the book. It's called How to Stay in. Love. Um, and it's my favorite book ever. written on the subject of love and. relationships and life, quite frankly.

So, I think everyone needs to go and get. the book. I'll link it below. Um, James, thank you so much. It's great to see you. I love our conversations. I hope we have. many more. So, I really appreciate you. Thank you for having me. It's great to. see you. Isn't this cool? Every single. conversation I have here on the Diary of. a CEO, at the very end of it, you'll. know I ask the guest to leave a question. in the diary of a CEO. And what we've. done is we've turned every single. question written in the diary of a CEO.

into these conversation cards that you. can play at home. So you've got every. guest we've ever had their question and. on the back of it, if you scan that QR. code, you get to watch the person who. answered that question. We're finally. revealing all of the questions and the. people that answered the question. The. brand new version two updated. conversation cards are out right now at. thecon conversationcards.com. They've sold out twice instantaneously.

So if you are interested in getting hold. of some limited edition conversation. cards, I really really recommend acting. quickly. [Music].