Deliveroo Founder: From £0 to £5 Billion: Will Shu | E88

i just knew this city needed something. better than. the classic takeaways that's how i got. the idea for delivery. i definitely know what it was like to. walk in their shoes i did that job for a. long time. i did you know five deliveries last. night and that's why you know treating. riders with respect and making sure. their voices are heard is so important. to me. we're running low on money because we. couldn't get money in for. whatever 14 months hov it kicks off our. users were disappearing because. there are no restaurants left on the. platform so we see this plummeting.

growth i had to do the hardest thing. i've ever had to do i had to. lay off you know a significant number of. people at the company. i'm so proud of what we built and i'm so. excited about the future but. it is a hard hard job and anyone that. tells you otherwise are not being honest. we're about to get all this money in the. company and then suddenly. it was just gone right. big number 600 million something like. that and i was like. holy [ __ ] you know what do we do. [Music].

delivery one of the fastest growing. technology companies in europe. you probably know the company you've. probably used it. but you probably don't know where it. came from. you probably don't know the founder and. his story. his unconventional very very humble. journey delivery went from an idea that. one guy had in london.

while working in the city to becoming a. multi-billion. dollar company in record time. but the crazy thing about my. conversation today with will is. he is not your typical founder he's not. your typical ceo. he doesn't feel like your typical. entrepreneur this was really. his first business and the really. puzzling thing about my conversation. with will is he doesn't fit the typical. stereotype of what you expect an.

entrepreneur to be. and i think that is amazing because it. just goes to show that. entrepreneurs don't all share the same. fundamental characteristics. they're not all these big braggadocious. characters with huge egos. and you can achieve great success with. great humility. will is an anomaly i think. you'll feel that today he is incredibly. humble. he isn't that introspective doesn't. analyze himself that much and he feels. like a very simple straightforward. character.

but what he's achieved wasn't simple. it was excruciatingly difficult and as. he'll tell you today. it still is without further ado i'm. stephen butler. and this is the director ceo i hope. nobody's listening. but if you are then please keep this to. yourself. well i am sometimes when i have guests. on this podcast i don't really know. where to start but with you it's.

slightly different. um as i was reading about your story and. i've you know as i said you before we. started recording. i've been i think actually in 2015 i was. delivered delivery's biggest customer. so i'd like you to confirm that and. reward me accordingly but i think i was. um and i've watched the journey over the. years and been absolutely blown away by. it because. of the disruption you caused to such a. big incumbent industry. however when i read into your story i. kept seeing this phrase that you'd say. and it really boggled my mind because. it's so atypical of the guests i have on.

this podcast. and it's that every time you're asked. about your childhood or whatever else. you'd always respond with i'm just a. normal guy. and when i think about what you've. achieved you built what is. now you know at least it was at one. point europe's fastest growing company. you couldn't possibly be just a normal. guy. i i don't know i mean i think i am you. know when you're a kid i don't think you. think anything is abnormal just. sort of is what it is um so i grew up in. a place called new haven connecticut.

uh it's a small city um. about 130 000 people probably 10 square. miles so it's. pretty small um it's where uh yale. university is. oh yeah yeah so we're known for that and. we're known for. pizza those are probably the two things. we're known for best pizza in the u.s. that explains why you went and started. delivery companies i mean yeah i was. always obsessed with sally's and pepe's. and modern and all that. um but yeah look my my parents are. immigrants. um so you know i would say growing up.

like. uh i guess we didn't. probably spend very much money it's. probably the best way to put it but when. you're a kid you don't you don't think. about that it's. just kind of what you. your daily existence you know your. parents what do they do. professionally my mom my mom's scientist. she works at yale. my dad uh was an actuary he retired. so they they were you know well-educated.

sort of professional people. yeah and you and that brought you over. here to london. no no so so my story is i i yeah i grew. up in new haven. um i went to university in in chicago i. went to a college called northwestern. um and then my first job out of college. i worked on wall street in new york. because this was 2001. and i took this job on i mean i did. really well in. in school both in university and in high. school. um it was just one of these jobs you did.

when you kind of didn't know what else. you wanted to really do. you knew you could make money and you. knew that other. you know successful people ambitious. people kind of went down that path. so how did you end up in london i ended. up in london because i worked for three. years in new york. uh my third year they said i got another. job at a different place and they asked. me hey. do you want to you know check out a. different office and i never lived. outside the u.s. i wanted to do something different i. just took a chance literally.

on london so i remember really well it. came out in april 04. never been europe never been to london. never been. been here and so i showed up and i had. such a great time i met. you know the people on the team and i'm. like [ __ ] it i'm gonna come i'm gonna. come for a year. and then it ended up just basically. staying and how old were you when you. when you came over here for the first. time. was 24 24. yeah i think it's so crazy so. many of my american friends they've not. left the us.

and i i was reading something yesterday. about the i was i think it was in i. think it's a page in the new york times. it was talking about how important it is. to leave the us. to understand the world but then also to. appreciate the country that you have. i couldn't agree more i mean today is. july 5th right yeah exactly. yeah july 4th yesterday and you. appreciate the us. so much more once once you leave. right because everyone in the us is. always like waving flags and stuff they. don't. i mean they don't know anything else. right um but when you leave and you you. understand different societies you can.

appreciate. the good and the bad of the us i'd say. yeah. i don't want to go into it but when i i. i you know we grew up in the uk and i. think europe and pretty much the world. idolizing so much about the us because. of films and movies yeah. the one thing that upon moving to the us. when i was 24 to run my business. to new york i couldn't get my head. around was the healthcare system. yeah the idea that i could get sick and. be bankrupt. yeah because there's nothing you can do. about it yeah that's the only well. there's a couple other things with guns. which we weren't going to either but.

that's the bits where i'm like oh my god. this isn't the so you were in new york. kind of the same age i moved to london. then yes and you moved to you. you were the williams sorry then yeah. straight to williamsburg our office was. in manhattan. so but so you're you're working in. canary wolf i'm guessing if you're in. finance. yes i was a morgan stanley um and i. remember my first. day i showed up for work because in new. york you got 25. dinner allowance you can order whatever. you want. actually funny story my first kind of. day at work in 2001.

i was pretty cheap right so i was like. 25 i can get. i can do whatever so i actually ordered. 25 whoppers because burger king had this. dollar whopper special and everyone's. like what are you doing and by like day. three. the sort of novelty wore off i'm like i. gotta work 100 hours a week it's not. you know this isn't that much fun but no. the first day i got to london. i asked people we're working late i'm. like what are we doing for dinner. everyone's like oh just i don't know we. go to the tesco and i'm like what's. tesco.

so we go in the supermarket and. everyone's like we're getting these. microwave meals. and i'm like wait a minute i'm like this. is not you're working like 100 hours a. week you try to aspire for something a. little bit better. so first day that's how i got the idea. for delivery. first day i moved here one of those. tesco meals just didn't cut it. i mean it was all right i mean they're. but but i mean there's just london's. like. one of the culinary capitals of the. world like why wouldn't you want. better food delivered what's that i mean. so many people have ideas right so many. people have ideas for big grandiose.

businesses. but it's almost like and i'd hate to say. this because it sounds super pessimistic. but the odds are you're gonna fail. so how dare you how do you try and. build that you know that massive. logistical operation that is. delivery you know honestly um. it's a really good point right because. you you're aware that there's the. possibility of failure. i don't know when i went into this when. i started it i just said. i'm not hedging myself in any which way.

i'm not doing side projects. i'm just gonna focus on this because i. really really believe it. not so much to start a business i. believe in it as a consumer. right so i always thought about it as. you know i'm building this business for. myself. as a consumer and hopefully other people. also. you know kind of think similarly to me. and i was convinced that enough people. did. and so i'm not one of these people that. was like oh i need to start a business. i'm like. i need to solve this problem which i. think is pretty different. in my mind and i think people should. start businesses because they want to.

solve a problem. or they they're in an industry that they. know super well they've identified some. inefficiency. that's my view at least i i complete you. know over the last three years i've. heard this narrative that like. it's much easier to start a business. solving a problem that you and your best. friend. care about yeah right yeah otherwise. like you're gonna get bored. yeah you know you i i told this story. before it's totally true i had a friend. from business school. super smart guy and he he was he had. like a thousand ideas he'd write them.

all down. but his ideas were all predicated on. some financial outcome right. and he started this thing it was the. etsy for pets. pet accessories or whatever and i was. like. okay this sounds okay sounds okay i read. his deck and i'm like wow this is like. like a great idea so he's like i'm gonna. go do this. and then like nine months later i'm like. okay how's it going he's like. you know what i just really don't like. dogs and cats very much and so i just. couldn't do it. right that's true you can't do something.

that you're not. actually fully invested in so many. entrepreneurs will say that they'll say. oh no not even entrepreneurs so many. people that are aspiring to start a. business will say that phrase they'll. say. i really want to be an entrepreneur i. just need an idea and then you'll see. them kind of like go and write down a. list of things that they could maybe do. and whenever i see that and i this i. just 100 stand by this i always think. they're going to fail. because of the reasons you described. there because you know they're going to. go through that absolute [ __ ] chaos. yeah and i think it was steve jobs that. said the same person would quit.

it when you go through the absolute. chaos so you have to love it and really. understand it it can't be. because i think i'll make because you. probably won't make money either right. no you won't right or. you you can't go in with the assumption. you will. quickly quickly as well right yeah and. you know and i. had this other guy i knew who he was. like you know what i. i he worked at a big consulting firm and. he was mckenzie or something like that. and he's like. in my spare time i've started these. three businesses and i'm like. i'm like no man you can't do that like.

you pick one thing you gotta like really. go for it. different people have different sort of. attitudes towards that my view though is. you you just have to go all in right so. speaking of going all in there must have. been a day where you. hand in your notice of resignation well. so so no not not for delivery because my. story is um so. after morgan stanley i worked uh. kind of 0406 in london for morgan. sailing. and then i ended up working at a hedge. fund for about uh four years in london. and then i went back to business school.

in in philadelphia for two years and it. came back in 2012. oh let's start this business fine yeah. fine so you came back. so this was the thing i i i wanted to do. after business school. okay so you finished business school and. you came straight to london to start. yeah because. what was cool about business school was. i saw offline. online happening right because remember. i so i tried to start the live room 08. right and when i was still working in. london and when i. looked into it it was like all right i'd.

have to put. a laptop in each restaurant i'd have to. build. some sort of handheld device for our. rider network. and it was just too complicated but you. know steve jobs then invented this thing. that completely changed everything right. phones tablets. all of that and so that was the. prerequisite step of course for any of. these. well any business today really to. operate right. because in oh eight iphone one came out. sdk.

i think the ios sdk came out in 08 so. this app ecosystem hadn't really. developed yet. and so had to wait for that i didn't. know obviously that. the iphone would you know do what it did. but in business school i was just super. excited about it. it goes to show how critical timing can. be in terms of these macro factors with. technology. to enable ideas like that because you're. right you could never have started this. business in 2008. that would have just been impossible and. you think i think the same about things. like spotify.

all of these macro factors of handheld. devices and 5g streaming. and 4g streaming whatever all had to. come together for you even to have that. conversation with the record labels. totally. the infrastructure you know i mean you. think back to. to just laying cables under the atlantic. i mean all of this stuff right. to to to the to the iphone to all the. software that was being built on i mean. just crazy. what had to come before and and those. changes are always happening because the. of the rate of evolution of technology. so it goes to show. that right now because of what's.

happened over the last. x amount of months there are new. opportunities being that have been. created for entrepreneurs. whether it's blockchain or crypto or so. i think even as an entrepreneur you. always think all the good ideas are. taken. and you know for us we're obsessed about. continual. innovation of course because we know. competitors come for us right. we know that there's going to be someone. sitting around going man this delivery. thing kind of sucks we gotta like we can. do better than that right and so we're. paranoid about that all the time.

right that's how we think about it we. always think we can get a lot better. we have to so so when you first started. out in london so you've moved from. business school you've. you've got this idea um talk me through. how. you know as a ground floor opportunity. how that became a. a conceptual like a business yeah so um. it was me and my co-founder greg. so greg and i grew up in new haven. together we've been friends since i. think we're like 12. wow right. yeah and so we were into computers like. when we were 12. i mean this is before.

i'm trying to think here because my mom. worked yale so. we would go use the um the unix. workstations there and. we we actually you know like we were on. these use net groups. um you know we were using ftp this is. all before there was really a true. graphical representation of the internet. and so we got and we got pretty into. computer games and stuff like that so we. were we were pretty into that stuff. um and and so that's how i that's how i. knew my co-founder greg.

um we then kind of got out of computers. a bit i don't know just discovered. different things. um but he ended up just you know staying. well he he studied history then worked. as a car mechanic. just kind of randomly because he liked. cars so he just. decided to do that and then he started. becoming a software developer again. and so him and i we would discuss ideas. like all the time and so. in oh wait i talked to him about this. idea right deliveroo. and he was like we thought about it he.

was like this is really complicated for. all the reasons we just talked about. but we stayed in very close touch so. throughout business school i was always. like hey man what do you think about. you know this thing again i think it's. like possible and so i convinced him to. quit his job. and you know kind of start this thing. with me. but i moved to london he stayed in the. states. so it was kind of like this weird thing. right but i would say so i moved back. here on october 12th. um we were building the prototype uh the. restaurant tablet. um the rider app um we didn't actually.

launch with a consumer app we. literally just had a website and so you. had to kind of if you had a phone you. had to kind of zoom in to all the. buttons. it wasn't even mobile optimized we. didn't meant them an app right so. and and so yeah because there's two of. us right and so um. i'd say the first few months before. launch it was like me trying to set up. restaurants i signed up restaurants. walking up and down the street. in chelsea it was him building all the. initial technology. me and him making product decisions so.

it's just just. basically two of us then he came out for. the launch january. 13 and we launched in feb 13 and. um yeah it was just me and him for the. first. i guess year yeah so you were. predominantly leading the rider side in. the kind of like on the ground operation. i mean there's two of us so there's. literally. not like i mean greg was building all. the technology yeah. he did it himself which is like pretty. incredible i was working with them on. the product decisions.

and then i was running the business but. the business was me signing up. restaurants. me you know getting getting the rider. side of the marketplace going. um and obviously you know attracting. consumers. but the funny thing is you know. initially when we launched in february. obviously no one knew who we were so. i would actually just ask my friends to. order all the time. and you know they just get annoyed at me. like why are you like bothering me like. what. and um a number of my friends would. would order i know for the sole purpose.

of. watching me deliver the food to them. right and i know that for sure. and they they just thought it was like. funny they would do the same yeah so i. would deliver the food. and then they they'd want to chat i'm. like sorry guys i gotta go do my next. delivery. um but then i realized one thing after a. while. they kept ordering even if i didn't. deliver the food and so that's when i. kind of. realized we were onto something do you. remember the. first order that wasn't your friend. oh um no i i honestly don't but i can.

tell you. the first order though the first first. order ever. i mean i told her to order it was it was. my friend anetta. and she was living on sydney street in. chelsea and the restaurant was rosso. pomodoro. and i and you know i was like excited. because she ordered so i delivered it. but i delivered the pizza upside down. yeah so it was it became a calzone um. and then i then i just ate it and she's. like you ruined my meal and you ate the. food this is like the worst experience. of all time.

yeah only up from there though so it's. good i mean the writer ate the order. yeah yeah not only you delivered it. terribly and then ate the food. but but still charged her i'm guessing i. might have given her a refund i think. i don't know for any kind of video but. no that was that was what happened right. it was like. my friends were ordering and then it was. just word of mouth right and and people. got. you know the bunch of people started. just showing up never i didn't know. their names. i had no idea what's going on and i. heard you you didn't do marketing for. the first. couple years a couple years yeah yeah.

well i did one thing i had to. i used to wear this kangaroo costume. around um. yeah yeah um i didn't really enjoy doing. that but um i. i would wear a kangaroo costume and hand. out these um. you know whatever like this is the. living room yeah. well why why london and not america i. guess america's way more competitive and. the design of the country is slightly. different but why london. well i mean i'm a londoner right i lived. here for six years before going back to. business school. i just knew this city needed something.

better than than the classic takeaways. wow whatever you don't have to say i'll. say it just you it's [ __ ] awful. what you know i don't know back in the. you don't have to say i'll say it um. when i was a student getting the cold. stodgy. awful rest not even restaurants awful. corner shop takeaways and styrofoam. boxes that was cold was just. awful and there was no yeah and so. my first experience with delivery was. when i think i said you off camera. um a company that i was working with.

turned the ceo turned around to me and. said you can now. order from top class restaurants and it. comes in a nice pack. nice packaging and i thought there's no. possible [ __ ] way. and then i tried it and i never went. back well the reality is look i tried. you know um just eat back in 0.7 right i. was really excited about it i was like. this is going to be like new york and i. tried it i'm like oh wait i can't track. my order. i don't know when the food's going to. show up and it was all.

sort of look i like kabobs right i like. fractures nothing wrong with that. but if that's the only choice yeah i'm. kind of like you know. i like kebabs but my intestines don't so. like it's a very. there's a battle there's some good. places there's something no that's true. there is there is there's a couple of. slightly healthier options for kebabs. around this around this area. um but then so you get to the point. where there's i read about there was a. couple of riders so there was you and. the three. or four others yeah um there was mirza. there there's saeed there's hanif um. sayed and hanif and mirza still work.

with us. um doesn't uh there's about four of us. yeah and they're still writers three of. them are one of them. actually works in our office in dubai. now oh wow he does like rider. support in dubai he wanted to move to. dubai so amazing yeah. awesome and so you guys were this was. when the business was starting to get a. little bit of traction within chelsea. i'm guessing exactly yeah yeah so a. little bit of traction in one. neighborhood. yeah we we launched only in one. neighborhood right the first. you know a few restaurants were on the.

fulham road in the kings road. and one of the restaurants was was my. landlord's restaurant i used to live. above it. so he i convinced him to sign up for. just because he was like i saw him every. day. right it's so funny because when you. hear about the lean you know when you. read books. like the lean startup and you hear about. how entrepreneurs should be starting. businesses. you seem to have done a lot of things. accidentally right. like even your your idea of launching in. a small area whether you can establish. network effects and. not necessarily doing marketing. advertising to your friends stephen we.

didn't have money. yeah this wasn't silicon valley i'm. gonna raise a 30 million dollar seat i. was funding the business myself. so it wasn't like i had a choice right. and so i'm kind of like okay i don't. want to like. burn all my cash you know and so that's. kind of how i was running the business. until we actually raise money. there's something important about that. isn't there when teams don't have huge. budgets they seem to make better. decisions. i think so i i think i actually do i. think having too much money. can be problematic um and there's a lot. of money now. but yeah when you're when you're it's.

just me and greg. four riders like 10 restaurants. you know you don't have any money yeah. you gotta like just. work on the most important things and. try to be as efficient as possible. i resonate with that because i when i. started my first business we had six. thousand pounds marketing budget. and it was it wasn't until we'd blown it. all on all the conventional [ __ ]. flyers posters some inflatable balloon. which we rolled down a road. and we had no money that we sat there. the three of us and and said. um if we have no money how do we get a.

million people yeah how do we do it. and that led us to discover this thing. called social media yep and then. um we were like well this well this is. facebook page that has 8 000 students on. it. and the owner says we can buy off him. for 50 quid i've got 50 quid let's go. meet him. bought it posted about my website on. this facebook page more traffic than. we've ever had so we were like. let's just build facebook pages for free. and so in 2013-12. we started building facebook pages we. got to 100 million followers we're doing. seven billion video views a month. and the business grew to be worth 300.

million and it would never have happened. if we didn't run out of money because we. were forced. to think in real first principles. exactly to ignore convention. and um so i i came up with i i think. i i love this idea i i'm like that's. like my proudest idea. so um we we were like okay look how do. we reach people we could do the flyers. i was sick of walking around with this. kangaroo costume right and so. i was like hmm and i was staying in a. hotel and. i was like oh they have these do not. disturb signs that you can hang on the.

door. right you know when you're in a hotel. like do not disturb and i'm like you. know what we should just. say deliveroo and then list a number of. the restaurants in the local. neighborhood because no one knew you. could actually get deliveries from there. and we just hung them on people's doors. and that worked. so no discounts nothing just letting. people know about it it cost you what. 20p for one of these things right. funny thing is the police got real mad. because they. we didn't think about this at the time. the police called us and they're like. what is this delivery thing we're like.

well we're a food delivery company. they're like. how do we know you're not a burglary. ring. and a robbery ring and i'm like what are. you talking about they're like well you. could. just leave those on people's doors and. see who doesn't take them off and if. they're. if they're still on the houses are. vacant so you could burglarize them and. i'm like. i didn't really think about it that way. but pretty genius idea actually. yeah and you're sitting there in your. kangaroo outfit trying to convince the. police you're not a burglar. basically do you want to come in and. watch this podcast live from behind the. scenes if you do.

all you have to do is hit the subscribe. button and now that the world has opened. up. you'll be behind the scenes as many of. our subscribers have been i can't wait. to meet you. so i you know you've got four or five of. you um the riders riders yeah. and you're i hear that you're hanging. out in a starbucks. often and you're just sitting there. chilling waiting for someone to. yeah we're just talking i mean you know. you know there's like four of us. there yeah do you the founder of the. company and three others. the three riders yeah just waiting for. the phone to ping.

yeah it was the three of us and it was. the same guy would come to us and he'd. be like all right you guys got to leave. we're like but we we bought something. you know. he's like kick us out every every time. you know. and why was he kicking you out i don't. know to be honest i don't think he liked. the look of us. if i'm honest with you um. yeah you know like like uh i i think um. you know and one day i went to him and i. go what is your problem like.

you know and he's just like get out. right and it was the way. that he looked at us the way he looked. at me was almost like we were. not people right we're kind of like. anonymous is probably the best word i. could use and then sort of sub human is. probably. you know the the worst word i could use. but it was like that like we're just. taking up space in this thing or. making his coffee shop look kind of. crappy right. and i remember talking to the three. other guys about it.

they like they're just like whatever. just let it go like. like who cares but i realized that that. must be how a lot of people look at them. all the time right because they're used. to it right and for me i wasn't really. used to it so i was like really really. mad about it. but you know it i definitely know what. it was like to walk in their shoes. you know for a day well for i guess a. whole year because i did that job for a. long time. and that's why you know treating writers. with respect and making sure. their voices are heard is so important.

to me. because of you know that one of those. incidents and then those three. those three guys were from pakistani. descent yeah. so one would one could assume that. the the reason why the gonna definitely. assume that yeah yeah i. was assuming just to be completely clear. i was assuming and. yeah and asserting yeah well they're. just like the way you know they're. looking at us like uh these these people. are gonna make my store look shitty you. know you could tell right. and so yeah that that was a kind of.

seminal moment i think. for me and and just talking to these. guys but they were just so. sort of like either jaded or. kind of numb to it they're like wow like. whatever it seems to happen in them. all the time yeah because they. experience that type of prejudice. and discrimination all the time i i mean. i've i've been there right so. very early and that's why that. particular story resonates with me a lot. is because i remember. very early on when i was launching my. business i have a tendency to to. wear snapback caps and hoodies even.

today. and obviously my net worth is. significant now and so when i get into. like the first class part of the train. i'll never forget the day whether the. train attendant walks right down the. aisle past everybody else and goes. this is first class mate you're like. yeah. didn't didn't mention that to anyone. else yeah just felt they need to come up. to me and my snap back because i'm. wearing this cap in this hoodie. and tell me some assumptively that this. this is this is first classmate i'm just. looking at him thinking. yes i know yeah you know what i mean and.

it's funny because i wrote it in my. diary this is how i still remember this. incident. i wrote in my diary that one day you. know i'll you know. i hopefully this wouldn't be the case. that people were you kind of like. numb to it or were you kind of angry. angry yeah. angry but for me it's like this small. little. heat inside it's not like i'm gonna be. rude to you yeah but. it's like you presume something about me. and and to be honest. there's a bit of me that actually. it's in some ways a compliment that he.

couldn't possibly think someone like me. could. afford to sit there and for me that. there's some kind of. compliment in there because of the. underestimation that a black kid. that's young can't sit in first class. you know. not that it's a right thing but it's it. is what it is well i guess for me though. what it also highlighted to me like was. how lucky i was. relative to some of these guys that they. they cam. they come from backgrounds of you know. extreme poverty growing up in. in in in pakistan they came here to.

build a better life they're super hard. working. like super dedicated and someone's just. treating them like [ __ ] it's like. it's pretty bad yeah it's an experience. you i think few would understand if they. hadn't. been through it themselves so at some. point in this podcast i usually do a. break to talk about huel who are the. sponsor of this podcast. but me and will spent so long talking. about the product i thought i'd just. show you this clip instead. you know what i will try this you're. going to try it do you like drink this. in lieu of a meal three times a day so. you just stopped eating.

hey deliveroo man do you know what. actually it's crazy because that is that. has been a pretty exciting. yeah no well i i think i i had delivery. this no i did i had delivery this. morning okay in fact the wrap the. package is over there so i got at 7 30. this morning. and then when i'm busy throughout the. day where i'll and i'm moving this but. you enjoy. food you enjoy yes okay but i know we'll. never. give up hard food try it let me know all. right so let's see here we got. the whole bottle is 400 calories 32. carbs. 20 grams of protein man let's try it out.

low fat gluten-free sawyer. it's it's not nest quick okay it's. cool this actually tastes pretty good it. is listen and it will. leave you feeling energized and full. and honestly we get addicted around here. so jack um. who directs the podcast when we put in a. huel fridge downstairs he hadn't had it. before tries one and now he actually. lives off it. if i drink this am i gonna want to eat. food as well. no okay no chance so so it's a good way.

to like. yes lose weight and all that kind of. stuff yes oh no chance i wonder if i can. buy this on delivery maybe. um you talk about the very early days of. delivery one of the things that founders. struggle with a lot and i did as well is. is the name of the company and i heard i. was reading about that. oh no yeah but i love this story because. i think it highlights how crappy. some decisions are at the start i heard. you were going to call delivery. something else. yeah there were there were a few. different um permutations.

one was a food pony because i didn't. read about that because i was thinking. of these. animals and food i think one was. um i think it was i'm trying to think. here it was like uh. yeah it was food mule was was another. one because. you know a mule's uh transports um. food not so good right what about booze. food did you forget that one yeah. i didn't think you'd mention it um so.

the original idea for deliveroo even. this is before 08 right. so you know you this so in new york. you go out on a big night first of all. everything's open like really late. right so you can actually go out past. 11. if you get home at like five in the. morning you can still. order something to eat like you can do. that and what my experience in in london. was you. go out late and you just can't actually. eat anything and i just like. couldn't understand that and so. initially the idea for delivery was.

something called. the zo7 it's called booze food which you. know really allowed you to order food at. like 3am when you really wanted it. so that is actually true yeah it's funny. because when. people look at successful founders. there's this like weird assumption. that all of the decisions you made were. right and that you're super smart and. that you got everything right. and it's not until you go back into. those early moments and dig through some. of the thinking the marketing ideas. you think [ __ ] hell this is someone. that's actually. developed their thinking oh it's just. iterating right yeah you know.

um but the boost food idea so there's. there's another funny part of that. because when when delivered so. boost food was a separate thing but then. when my buddy tried to liver for the. first time. he was like oh yeah this is great like. you've got. busaba you've got rosso pomodoro you've. got all these great restaurants in. chelsea. but he's like really what you need to do. is have a cheat code. so when you're really drunk you can put. in some cheat code and then it's like. literally like all the bad stuff for you. so that. maybe we'll implement that at some point.

i don't know you chose to ignore him. that's pretty funny idea. interesting um talking about co-founders. another sort of. integral part of success in business. how um how did things go with greg. i i know that he's no longer in the. business but he at some point he. departed. yeah yeah no i mean look without greg. the business wouldn't exist. right no no question about it i think um. you know he's one of the smartest uh.

hardest working people i know. we grew up together he's one of my best. friends we've been friends since we were. 12. um i think um for greg he. he wouldn't move to the uk um ever. he just wouldn't do it never yeah i. guess he didn't you know he's too. american i don't know. but no he he his wife was in a um she. was getting a remd. degree in the u.s and so it was like. hard for him to like come over here. and ultimately you know at some point so. he built a. um engineering team in chicago where he.

was living. but at some point i was like no this. this business real like we gotta. we gotta have the team all together and. so you know made a decision and he. he he left a business in late 15 early. 16 or so um but i mean i have a great. relationship. with him we were just chatting last. night but yeah. founders go through hell together yeah. yeah i mean my founder co-founder did. yeah we went. we went through a lot but you know it. was tough when he left right because i. didn't have um.

there's not someone i can talk to on. that same level right. yeah you've got your you know your your. southern sort of other execs and. you've got you know a board of directors. but it's different. it's it's really different than having. that did that hurt you when he left. did it hurt me yeah a bit right because. i was kind of like. kind of wanted to build this thing you. know with him. but i also wasn't willing to just have. half of the company be based in the. states i just didn't think that was the. right thing to do for the business. right um yeah and i think it was um.

yeah you know it was uh yeah it was. tough right. it was tough do you think that situation. could have been handled differently. in hindsight i think i think maybe i. could have convinced him a little bit. more to. to move out here i just think because he. wasn't here. he didn't actually understand the. momentum of the business. but he didn't see all the stuff on the. ground for him it was an abs. it was an abstract idea i mean you can.

see the metrics you can see all that but. that's really different. than seeing a bunch of you know delivery. riders the backpack on and. sort of people talking about it in the. uk right. but i mean look i i think i think would. have been great if he if he stuck around. but. i also think that you know people make. certain decisions and. he he decided to prioritize an another. thing which is. you know totally totally fine i find. that really interesting as well and the. reason i asked that question about do. you think it could have been resolved. differently is because the world is very. much changed now because of covid.

and we have distributed teams all around. the world in startups now yeah. and this was pre way pre-coverage 2015. before zoom probably. even you know had taken off so just i. just wonder if now in the world we live. in now. a relationship where the tech team is. remote could have. i i think i i do think and by the way. much of our tech team today is remote. but the difference is. we still have a very big core of people. that kind of have seen the journey. up front and center and so when you.

layer on top of that remote people i. think that works really well. i think to have a product team and a. technology team that. literally never uses the product because. they're in the states is a really. problematic in my mind. because ours is not a just a pure. digital product right we're. we're a digital and a physical product a. relationships business. that's what it is right and so it's it's. different than you know something that's. purely. your experience in chicago and london is. the same on certain types of businesses. for us it's very different.

true very true talking about going. through hell with founders and. co-founders and just generally the hell. of starting. startups um one of the real reasons i. founded this podcast was because and. it's kind of clued in the name. is because i didn't feel like the full. journey of a founder is ever really told. specifically the hard parts um and. i i know that in your journey to build. the business you did you've confronted. all kinds of. awful challenges yeah right talk to me. about some of those awful challenges. especially at the start.

it doesn't get easier i'll tell you that. right so i mean the business is. really you know significantly sized. business now but i wouldn't say it gets. easier. they're just different right so you're. one i would say the big challenge is. no money you know me and greg running. around. right um i think my biggest challenge. was at some point so i think i was lucky. in the sense the business momentum. sort of did take it wasn't like super it. wasn't like this but. there were new customers and we we knew. this thing was working.

but i didn't know how big it was it. would be and at some point because i was. delivering food every single night right. and at some point i remember my my. flatmate he went to business school with. me. faris and he he kind of looks at me and. he's a good friend of mine right he. says he's like what are you doing and. i'm like what do you mean he's like you. just. deliver food for five hours every night. that's like what you do. and i'm like yeah because i gotta who. else is gonna do it and he was just like. he kind of looked at me and just like. all right you know and then i. kind of like because because i you know.

i worked in these. jobs that you can you know make a lot of. money before i i. had this summer internship at wharton. that was like the one everyone wanted. and i just. decided to do something else and um no. he was kind of like. he thought i was like losing my mind. right and then i thought of it because. i'm not a very. like i don't even think i'm that. introspective to be honest so i don't. i'm kind of like i got stuff to do i'm. gonna like do it and so he was like hey. man you should like think about. what you're doing right and i did.

and i was kind of like freaking out a. bit just like sitting in my in my small. room like. what am i doing right am i where is this. gonna go and then i just was like. you know [ __ ] it like i think this is. going great so i'm gonna i'm gonna stick. to it. so that was hard um i would say um did. you come close to. quitting at that stage no i never did. really. never greg did though yeah. greg did i never did i'm not like i just. i just wouldn't you know i wouldn't let.

that happen why. i don't know man they just i just feel. like. i have such responsibility to the people. i i work with the restaurants and the. writers and. i don't know you just start like i'll. tell you what i'm not i'm not one of. these people. you know you read about bezos like hey. i'm going to start with books books are. easy to transport i'm going to move on. and all these other things. it's grand plan in their mind not like. that at all. but what i did see was i saw success.

that fuels more ambition. you get into the circular path and so i. was i was on it like that and i just. also have this just immense sense of. responsibility to people. right similar to that story you told. about your friend there. i read that you one day knocked on a. door to deliver some food and it was one. of your. former colleagues from yeah from a hedge. fund yeah. yeah i find this fascinating because. people don't often talk about. embarrassment. as being one of the real key barrier to. entries to start businesses and to. pursue your.

your dreams yeah but it's such a tough. barrier. like humiliation and embarrassment and. that look i remember that look fondly of. the people i was living with when i was. 18 19 and you tell them what you're. doing. and that kind of like smirky like oh. okay. yeah that happened i also i mean that. story yeah so. it's john luca and um really nice guy. but. so i'd worked with him probably five. years before and he hadn't seen me in. like five.

years and so he he ordered something i. didn't know it'd be him. and i deliver this pizza to him and i. got my my scooter helmet on. and he's like i'll do his accent it's. pretty strong he goes will. is that you are you okay he's italian. right he's from naples. and i'm like i'm like who the [ __ ] is. this i'm like oh it's john luke i'm like. hey uh i'm like hey john luca. and he's like is that anything okay you. know he's like he just thought i like. lost my mind. um so because he didn't really. understand that i started the business. he. oh i just i think he thought i was you.

know just delivering pizzas right. and i'm like well yes i am delivering. pizzas but i also that is part of the. job but you know i also started this. business and he just. thought it was totally nuts yeah. a lot of my friends did in the beginning. though that first year a lot of them did. i mean they were supportive but. you know i knew what they were kind of. saying behind my back a little bit too. you know. not not in a terrible way just like out. of concern. why didn't you care too busy. too busy man i generally don't care.

i generally don't care what other people. think if i'm honest with you my whole. life never really have. i don't know why but a bit of a. superpower isn't it. i don't know could be a good thing could. be a bad thing don't know just don't. really care that much. it's definitely a good thing it's. definitely a good thing especially as it. relates to your personal happiness but. also pursuing your. your um your goals and ambitions because. as we say embarrassment and. and because public scrutiny seems to be. one of the biggest barriers to starting. and continuing. so when you get past that initial stage.

what are the next big challenges. um so post year one business starts. getting some traction. maybe business starts getting traction. um that part's real exciting right you. know you raise your first amount of. money that's like. super exciting it's like wow someone. someone gave. i think with us it was index ventures. gave us 2.7 million pounds. which now you're like that's like the. smallest seed thing that ever. do but but i was like wow like we've got. you know this. these really smart guys that want to. invest in the business um.

and now it's about like how do we scale. this thing. and so it was hard but it was a lot of. fun right. but i didn't know how to like hire. anyone i'd worked in finance and i. worked at hedge fund. sat in front of a bloomberg machine. right so i'm just. on gumtree that's how i hired and. actually the people people that that. work at delivery now they don't they. always. tell me that's not true but it's 100. true i hired the initial people from. gumtree. and i was just like writing like random. like job descriptions.

and we ended up um getting an office. by office i mean probably the size of. this room i would say. no windows no heating it's definitely. illegal it was on cleveland street. 121d cleveland street and um. we we found these like tables and chairs. in the car park beneath it. found a sofa on the street just set it. up it was a thousand pounds a month. and we got going right but i loved that. part that was so much fun. um so i'd say in the like the first two.

were super hard. i would say years two and three. and four were hard but like exciting. because you're expanding the business. you don't. really know what you're doing you're. kind of figuring it out as you go along. right so i love that part your favorite. part. yeah i'd say my favorite part is. definitely when the company's like. 20 to 100 people yeah look i'm the i'm. i'm the ceo of a large publicly traded. company now right it's not gonna be as. fun let's be honest.

like and i'm happy to say that on the. record yeah like. everyone does everyone talks about the. sub hundred. um because you know why because. everyone's on the same page yeah. you don't need to be deliberate about. communications you don't need to be. deliberate. about how all the pieces fit together. everyone just kind of knows. and obviously to scale a company and do. that in a high quality way you need to. figure out the systems to do that. so that when you have 3 000 people it's. similar to when you have a hundred but. when you have 100. i think it's the best you know.

everybody's name and oh everyone's name. you guys are all. sort of kind of friends you you know you. go to the pub together. you know that's fun when did you. consider yourself to be an entrepreneur. ah i don't know i don't know if i ever. thought about it like that was there. even after you raised that money did you. did you think i'm a businessman. i always thought about i wanted to build. an online food company. that's how i always thought about it so.

whether it's business or. entrepreneur i don't know i don't know. what the title means but you know. it's funny because there's i'm not. obsessed with the idea of building a. business i'm obsessed with the business. i'm building. so many people have it the other way. around i think so. and it's almost become quite i know sexy. and instagramable to be like. be your own boss i'm ceo [ __ ] like do. you know all that stuff like and i think. that. and again i just bet against those. people that are building for the sake of. status not for the sake of value right. solving a problem.

yeah solve a problem so so intriguing. that seems to be a really similar. pattern with the people that sit here. that have built great businesses they. didn't they had no interest in being an. entrepreneur they just got sucked into a. problem they thought they could solve. yeah to me that's got to be the way now. obviously there's. going to be a lot of different people. different approaches but for me. absolutely that's got to be the way. so in that early stage when you just got. that office and there's you know. a couple of you in that room things are. tough right you're talking about you. know you're burning cash. all startups especially tech ones tend.

to be burning cash yeah. um what was your mental health journey. from that point till now. look i'd say this um i don't know about. other people i i don't think i'm a very. up and down person uh so i guess that's. probably a good thing but i'm not. totally sure. could mean i'm just suppressing a lot of. stuff i don't really know right. but um i don't have like these enormous. ups where i'm like going around jumping. up and down. and i'm not going bananas when things.

are you know kind of going. back that that being said some of my. former colleagues in the early days. might disagree with me. i would absolutely go nuts when. i thought an order was handled and. appropriately or customer service. interaction was um handled. inappropriately. i think some people probably they can. have some memories of that but. i kind of got over that and don't don't. really do that anymore but. i would say a lot of the journey. is super super super hard i'm happy to.

talk about. any of those stories with you but. there's definitely been. long periods of time not just like for. hours like long periods of time we're. just like. man this is this has to get easier or. like. you know you're just i forget it was. elon musk or whoever talks about it the. standing on the abyss thing. you know you know chewing glass i felt. that like. many many many times right that's hard. it's really hard if you'd known it would. be that hard would you have started.

thinking about your toughest moments if. you'd known you would have had to. go through that that chewing glass. staring into the abyss would you have. started delivering. um if on the day where you thought i'm. gonna start delivery today. i'd come and i'd shown you a tape of. those moments. yeah but i guess it's a little hard to. say because if you told me hey. business would be where it is today. would i have started it probably yes. you told me it wouldn't work out and i'd. be having chewing glass for like years. then probably not right.

it all it all depends but it it's like. hard to it. completely different degree because as. the founder you think about it. every single hour you think about it you. know when you're in bed. you know when you're when you're talking. to a friend you're it's in you can't. escape it. right you touched your head there when. you said you can't escape it. that's where it is right that's where it. lives it lives in your head at all times. at all times you can't escape talk me. through the specific details of those. moments though. one example of an issue so so one of. them was.

we were um so so back in 2017. holy [ __ ] i guess four years ago now. yeah. we were um you know we'd raised a bunch. of money from our. kind of investors so that was index. accel green oaks dst. you know businesses sort of flying um. and then um we were going to raise money. from. you know the world's biggest fund right. i'm not going to name who they are but. you can probably guess who they are at. some point. right um.

so anyway so we were we're about to do. that. um we just term sheets signed doing due. diligence summer of 17. and um you know big round and um. all of a sudden i get a call like oh we. three days before we're supposed to. close oh we can't do this. no blah blah blah reason. i think it was related to wework it was. it was related to uber i think. okay or something like that right i.

don't remember exactly the specifics but. it doesn't really matter the point is. we're about to get all this money in the. company and then suddenly. it was just gone right a big number. big number and i was like holy [ __ ]. you know what do we do so how big was. this number it's like. 600 million something like that it's a. lot of money right. 700 maybe i don't even remember it's a. bad day but then. we um and i was like kind of pissed off.

for like 10 minutes. but i got the team together i'm like. guys we got a lot of work to do over the. next. you know month six weeks so we lined up. like. 25 investor meetings all around the. world. and we just went we met with all these. other funds. and we got it done but that was that was. really really tough right. again because if we didn't get we didn't. get the money because we're lost making. entity right. we were running out of money right so.

that part was not. fun that was a tough one but it was. great we ended up. you know working with um you know. fidelity and t rowe price so we. got in terrific investors so at the end. of the day you look back on it it was. like oh that's a. actually a really good outcome but at. the time it was really hard. but that is so synonymous and typical. with. building a business just that unix i. mean this year's i mean. covert 19 was an example of that just. unexpected. unpredictable unanticipated crippling.

[ __ ]. at any time and this is why i find it. almost impossible for founders not to. live with some form of anxiety because. you know when you wake up. on any day there's a high probability. you're going to get a text message or an. email. that something you didn't think about. has just totally gone. well i'll tell you i'll tell you a story. about covet actually it actually. predates covet a bit so. we raised the next round of capital. um so um from amazon which you you. probably know yes.

the way this happened though was was. really crazy so. we had um spent a bunch of time um with. amazon. they decided to invest you know we. negotiated the deal. all normal and they were great and we. the due diligence process i was like wow. these guys. really know what they're doing right so. it's really it was really great. so we announced the deal and again you. know we're loss making so we need the. money right. and again this is a big round and the um.

the cma the antitrust authorities. in in the uk they're just like we need. to review this. but they wouldn't actually let us take. the money in. right and we're like but how are we. supposed to compete when. we compete against the likes of uber and. justine you know that are well funded. they're kind of like it's not really our. problem you know we're like well. you know we're a british company trying. to build you know big tech business here. and so that whole process was.

excruciating. because it was 18 months long. [ __ ] 16 16 months 18 months long where. amazon was a minority shareholder in our. company i think a 13. stake 14 stake shareholder same as some. of the other like investors right. they had one board seat everything was. normal says and. you know these guys just literally kind. of went after. you know this um in an unprecedented way.

but we couldn't get the capital in right. so we're just going we're like. what do we do and we're at the mercy. of some sort of you know institution. right it's not like a free market type. of thing you can go and like find out. you know. we're at the mercy of this situation and. so they took us through what they call. their phase one investigation. which lasted like six months and then a. phase two investigation lasts another. eight months. so that was terrible right utterly. terrible because you don't. actually have any idea what's going to.

happen because it's not it's not a. logical process right. it's sort of like you know. it's the whim of someone else right it's. not it's not a logical process. at the same time what started happening. was kovid kicked off in. what jan feb of 2020 right so. we're running low on money because we. couldn't get money in for. whatever 14 months whatever it was. covet kicks off and covid what it did to. us initially was. our restaurant partners were shutting.

down for delivery. and dining not just dine in right. and so the restaurants on the platform. started plummeting. you know in europe and the uk now asia. was different they handled it very. differently. but we didn't our users were were. disappearing because. there were no restaurants left on the. platform right i don't know what they. were doing i guess they're going to. ocado or whatever. and so we see this plummeting growth we. have to. and we had to do the hardest thing i had. to do the hardest thing i've ever had to. do i had to. lay off you know a significant number of.

people at the company. which just was the yeah it was the. hardest thing i had to do. you know like big layoffs because we we. just didn't know what the future was. going to be like. we were in the middle of an anti-trust. process hoping to get a lot of money. in our business is plummeting. that was really bad really bad i mean. the worst for people that lost their. jobs obviously. but really bad sleepless nights. i always sleep um but yeah the days are.

hard. days you cite that moment as being the. toughest in your journey at delivery. yeah i do i do just that whole. because it's it's not like a problem you. or i could solve. right if it's like hey you know we. didn't do this round. i can go and raise more capital whatever. we can go figure it out or. this feature doesn't work well the way. we wanted to we can figure out a way to. iterate around that. there's an org structure issue well we. can figure that out.

but when you're at the whim of a. government institution that's a very. different feeling that's a. you're totally not in control and when. it lasts for that long then the issue is. you're a tech company you can't not. compete. hard for 14 16 months right that's not. the world the way the world works it's. not like a. two grocery chains battling it out right. it's just different. and so yeah i'd say that was hard it was. compounded with the fact that.

we had to lay off all these people right. which is the hardest thing we could do. now luckily for us these restaurants. reestablish themselves and the business. has been on this. amazing trajectory that was tough. what goes into your thought process when. you realize you've got to lay off a. significant amount of people. you know that it has domino's effect. domino effects you know that it's going. to be a press story. all of these things you know that people. are losing their jobs their livelihoods. at a time when they. you know when they're going when when in. a time when the the future is so.

uncertain. yeah what's going through my head like i. mean. just it's [ __ ] terrible right i don't. know what else to say. you know but do we have to do it but. it's terrible. and getting up in front of the company. and explaining to people why this is the. right thing to do. really hard these are their friends. colleagues. you know lost a lot of really great. people you know. it's definitely the hardest thing we've. ever had to do. those are the days when it sucks busy.

right. look the job is like oh i'm so proud of. what we built and i'm so excited about. the future but like. it is a hard hard job and anyone that. tells you otherwise is. either having an exceptional experience. or or they're not being honest right. i also think it's different when you're. the founder and the founder ceo. right like i built the thing from an. idea. right and it's a big thing and then i. don't care about the press. i care about like our employees right.

i care about the restaurant partners the. the riders. the consumers did you have anxiety at. that point. did you ever suffer with anxiety i mean. i i. certainly think so a must-have yeah. yeah for sure i i definitely had anxiety. throughout that point. running my business as well because we. face similar decisions. and you're right the key word that. you've used there which i resonated with. was uncertainty. uncertainty because it's sort of like.

it's not in your. control and you don't know how when you. i knew the cma i had to deal with them. once in 2015. and it's not as you say no timelines we. when we didn't have a timeline when we. were dealing with the cma. yeah um we know that it's it's largely a. political. yes um setting a presidency you know for. us it was we were the biggest in our. industry so. they were trying to establish a rule by. using us. as an example did you go through a phase. one or what did you go through well i. was with the advertising. standards association around disclosure.

of advertising and it was at a time when. influencer marketing it wasn't clear. whether you had what you had to write on. influencer marketing posts whether you. ad sponsored whatever i see right and so. there was. and the the rules and the guidelines. were as we were told by someone at the. cma. purposefully vague so that you could. kind of you know interpret. and um they ended up using us as an. example we had a case. uh chundled on i think for nine months. for those nine months we're not sure. whether they're going to shut us down. find us slap on the wrist what's going.

to happen it's. tough but it's tough right because you. don't know i don't know right so. it takes a long time yeah that point. around anxiety i think. is um specifically interesting because. um it's. i think it's definitely increasing in. our generation because of social media. and we. all have more tabs open than ever before. ceos are people that as you've alluded. to walk around with all the tabs open. all the time. what do you do to relax in moments like. that when you're in the middle of a. the story i probably don't do a good job.

with that you know. i can put a pretty calm face on because. i'm just not naturally like an up and. down person. but you know i try breathing exercises. you know i try to really kind of just. not think about anything sometimes. i tried that calm app yeah i got through. day six of the 30 day challenge. got got a little bored at day seven but. but um. i used to read a lot i used to read a.

book a week. i now at this point it's it's it's been. a while since i read a book which is. makes me a little sad this is like my. favorite thing to do. that does work or you just kind of go. for a walk i go on long walks all the. time. that really helps me out a lot i have. some. super exciting news to share with you. all i have an amazing new sponsor for. the podcast which i'm very excited about. called. my energy like with all of the sponsors. on this podcast i've reached out to them. because i truly believe in the.

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all of that with you. could you could you talk to me about. what it without going into specifics. about people or whatever. can you talk to me about the um. challenge of. having and sustaining romantic. relationships. while you're also you've got this baby. and this obsession which is all. concerning i think it's like. yeah i think the brain is capable of. kind of filling itself up with certain. things and then. there's just not room for other things.

yeah i mean that's how i think about it. yeah i don't know if that's fair and you. know some people would say that that. that. i'm i'm certain that other people can. can can. can fill their brains up with more but. i'm like a very obsessive person right. i don't know if you i'm the exact same. that's why i asked the question because. i was hoping you might be able to tell. me how to fix it i'm not the right guy. to. tell you all that so yeah i i've. struggled for that. same reason just being very. uncompromising with time. and i hear compromise is an important.

part to sustaining a healthy. relationship. i heard that too from all of my. ex-girlfriends. but i don't know if like um yeah but i. don't know if like it's also like. you know we do this because you know i. don't know like we're hiding from. something else or like you know. i don't know that's something i think. about sometimes you think about that. a little bit right like why am i so. obsessive but then i think back and i've. always been obsessed about everything. i don't really think it's changed but. when i started my career in business and.

i was obsessive looking myself in a room. not really seeing. my friends either i thought this is the. way to live life it's just about get. rich. get um successful and then everything. else. happiness will arrive at that point like. not it would not that i wasn't happy. but just my happiness would it scale to. some point like euphoria. so this is all it so you get successful. you get some money. and you realize that your happiness. probably for me i'm speaking for myself. here. doesn't necessarily scale it doesn't go. down but doesn't. really move upwards that much and then i.

start reading about. um the importance of meaningful. connections and relationships and all. these things. are watching this odd ted talk about how. men in relationships over 100 years. study. live longer are happier et cetera et. cetera are more healthy. and i think fact you know what i. actually think i've i've [ __ ] up. i actually think maybe i should have. attributed more time to relationships. but can you can you just be so. intentional about everything i mean. i don't know maybe we can i don't know.

but you must you must understand the. importance right according to like the. science anyway of having. yeah yeah yeah but. you know we make the decisions we do i. don't know you know it's all. it's it there's a difference between an. abstraction. and actually what happens right hmm but. you. because i i f worried that i might. regret it someday. that i might have had my priorities. wrong this whole [ __ ] time. you're a young man though does that ever. cross your mind that you might have.

miss you might have put your priorities. in the wrong place has it never crossed. your mind. to be honest no really but i'm not a. very. retrospective person at all i literally. don't think about the past. which may not be a good thing either. good for certain things. not good for others what about. friendships then through that through. that. you know chewing glass and staring into. the abyss how good were you at. maintaining. friendships and social.

similar thing right it's like you have a. limited amount of time and. i'd say okay okay yeah you know. five out of ten probably five out of ten. i wouldn't recommend. probably it's a lonely job you know and. you're not gonna. you don't want to like hang out with. your friends and just talk about how. tough your day is all. all the time either right so i don't. know if you were the same way. 100 awful friend my friends became the. people i worked with. pretty much i had that i heard that but.

i think it's really important to. separate that. yeah yeah but it's a solitary thing. right you're a founder. you know you just kind of especially. when greg kind of you know. left the left and so you're just on your. own and you got to figure stuff out. we make this sound kind of like terrible. though i'm just like listen. thing this is this is part of the reason. why i wanted to do this podcast because. i think there isn't uh. there isn't this warning about the. sacrifice it's all. oh my god look he's [ __ ] rich and. he's got oh i'd love to. and i think the balance is important.

let me take you up until the the ipo so. you do um. company goes public um our company went. public via reverse merger. things change it's tough um because you. now have the scrutiny of the public. markets. talk to me about that whole journey and. how you found that. um yeah so i think the whole ipo process. you know was it was a lot of work for. about kind of three four months. before the ipo i think we were all kind.

of looking forward to. you know something you know really. exciting um and it was. really exciting to take a company public. you know um. you know you know at a big market cap um. you know something coming from an idea. obviously sort of the. the day one you know trading was was. hard right because. i'm not like i don't really like i said. i don't really care that much about what. people think and. i don't really read the media that much. or anything like that but when it's that.

pervasive. you know it's like front page of every. you know single newspaper. you know telling you you know you guys. [ __ ] up or you did this. yeah it was tough for a few weeks i'll. be honest with you it was tough for a. few weeks. you know because the market cap fell. yeah and just like you know there's a. lot of you know you you. people in the company oh look what's. going on and you're on investor calls. like what's going on. and ultimately the way i sort of think. about it is. you know so proud of the fact we got.

here. right i'm actually just focused on the. business how do we grow the business. how do we move the business in the right. strategic direction right. and i'm super super super optimistic. about the future. for all the stuff we've been doing for. the past few years i'm going to come to. fruition you know in the future and all. the. future facing stuff we're working on now. so if i'm very honest with you. i don't think about the stock price i. actually think about the business. but for a few weeks it was like.

difficult right it's very hard. and then there's all these stories we're. in which we talked about a little bit. but. all these stories written about drivers. are they employees are they contractors. um the unique position you've got is. you've actually been a rider and in fact. you still are. yeah i did i did you know five. deliveries last night you know. notting hill and i talk to riders all. the time i know. what they want we're building a business. for our riders for our restaurant. grocery partners for our consumers.

that's their custom they're all. customers at the end of the day that's. how we think about it. right so a model that actually works for. them has got to be the most important. thing. and we know our model can it improve. absolutely it can improve we can improve. everything. but do we think it's the best model for. them yeah. 100 your company's worth you know. billions and billions and billions and. billions and billions and billions and. you're out last night. doing delivery riders.

yeah delivery deliveries around. nottingham why. a few reasons one um i want i always. test our rider app right so it's a good. way to do it. secondly decent way to get some exercise. and you're just on the road and you're. not thinking about anything else. i actually find it very relaxing right. and then thirdly i can actually. kind of see the restaurants in action. too because the interaction is usually. not with the consumer. the consumer doesn't want to talk to you. but they just want their food i get it. the restaurants you can learn a lot just.

by spending time there. when you shop at the restaurant to. collect the pizza or whatever it is with. chicken chow mein. do they recognize you no no. one recognizes the writers recognize me. sometimes but no one recognizes i'm not. like a celebrity so. have you ever had an experience where. like a restaurant was rude to you or. like uh. yeah last night really yeah i was pretty. pissed off about did you [ __ ]. you're [ __ ] off the sidewalk no no no. i don't say a word. but i i i make sure to log log into my. notes. really yeah how rude just like.

well i was like hey i'm like hey i've. been waiting for a while. they're like they do this and i was like. shake behind you. yeah i'm like come on and then then i. got the food and it was like kind of. cold i'm like hey like. you know just you know this food's kind. of cold and they were like. yeah just deliver it buddy and i'm like. at no point you told them you're this. no i would never you're different from. me no no. but i want the true experience right i. want to understand. what the writers go through it was.

really funny as. they were being rude to me there's other. writers walked up to me he didn't know. where i was he was just like oh man you. see. these guys are at it again really yeah. yeah and you take those learnings back. to 100 hq and you go we need to fix this. yeah while we talk to those restaurants. right are you going to speak to that. exact restaurant hundred percent i will. and. what would you say well. i waited around for a long time you. clearly had made the food was just. sitting around like we need better. processes. we need to figure out a way to get this.

to work and please tell your staff to. not you know be retweeted. you know and i get it they're busy too. like but. you know it's uh just just smile say hey. how you doing. it makes a big difference in people's. days right what have you. what's your thinking around competition. you're in an incredibly competitive. field where you've got these absolute. heavyweights yeah. and you've had competition emerge and. disappear. throughout your whole course of building. this business and they've and all your. competition seems to have had. 10 times 100 times the capital that.

you've had oh i don't know we've had a. lot of capital to be fair but i mean. uber. yeah well they're there they always have. a lot and rocket internet in the early. days they launched. in the uk yeah yeah what was that thing. they launched i forget the name but. everyone else yeah food i don't know. something yeah i think it was. look i think competition exists because. this is such. a big market right the it's 1.3 trillion. pounds in the 12 markets we operate in. online penetration is you know call it. three to five percent.

it's early it's big market that's why. there's a lot of competition. i think look the way we think about the. competition is um. you know of course we pay attention to. it i mean very closely. but it's really about what is our. consumer value proposition and is it. better than the competition is it. growing on an absolute basis as well. and we fanatically sort of measure that. um and we always think about you know. what is the consumer. the riot or the restaurant the grosser.

of the future want before they even know. right what is the answer to that. question what is the future. well i think the future is i can't give. away all my secrets. the future is um look this this this. business is super. underpenetrated on you look look at. travel it's 50. right food is that low why is food. difficult well food's difficult because. a it's perishable and b it's emotional. which means to express food online is. hard you you go to a restaurant right.

restaurant's a 75 gross margin business. why low net margin but high growth what. because it's an experience. right right it's an emotional experience. but it's not just about the food it's. what was your relationship with the. maitre d what was what did the core look. like. all these things right i know they're. amorphous how do you take that same. feeling and put it online a really hard. thing to do. so i think the future is going to be. more and more food occasions online.

they don't just have to be delivery. though they could be dine in they could. be a whole host of other things. private chefs could could be that could. be you know cool recipe kits could you. know a lot of different things right. but how do you marry that. with the emotional aspect of this. brilliant food industry right. and no one does it we don't do it well. today you look on our app it's pretty. transactional you look at ubers. you look at you know any of these other. guys pretty transactional. and i think the winner in this space.

it's a winner i don't know that's that's. maybe a poor word but. but whoever does really really well in. the space is going to. nail that emotional side right the. restaurant generated content. the fmcg generated content the grocery. generated content. we collect millions and millions of. reviews each week on our platform. we don't do anything with that great. today in my view. so how do you marry all that together. how do you migrate the experience from a. transactional one to more of an.

emotional one right hmm. interesting this is emotional right here. sorry okay oh you're gonna drink four of. these. that's great for this one so we're gonna. put that all over facebook ads. that's really interesting and so you're. talking about creating greater depth. from what i heard creating. greater depth with that social and. emotional interaction with food. within the food is social food is. emotional right yeah. at the core so delivery is becoming a.

social network for food. but i think having aspects of that yeah. right we want to be an app you go to not. just when you're hungry but when you. want to learn about food as well. right i hear you because like a chef. tells his story in a physical. space how do you let that chef tell his. or her story. online and how does that help you make. decisions as to what you want to. purchase right i think that's amazing. and it's really different than buying. like toilet paper on amazon right or. buying like.

which is transactional right it's more. transactional now the reason you use. amazon is. the best most reliable service in the. world but i think with food i think it's. a little bit different you need that. reliability but you also need that. emotional connection. wow yeah so that's what we're we're. spending a lot of time on trying to. figure out. so as you look so i guess no i've got. two questions so my next one is about. money. a lot is written when founders go public. about how much money they've made. bonuses blah blah um i mean elon musk is. a great example.

the amount they've written about him i. think it caused him to sell all of his. properties and his house in pretty much. all of his possessions. and he now lives a lot of the time when. he's on. a spacex in this little small shed but. he said in the interviews he did that. because. the money is so secondary to him he just. wanted to disarm people from thinking. about that and then obviously when he. became the richest man in the world. again. he is hitting with all the billionaires. or evil stuff. what relationship do you have with money. and what does it mean. to you in your life oh man um.

i don't know i never really thought. about it uh. [Music]. i mean i don't really live very. differently than i did. you know seven or eight years ago so. kind of live in the same place. i mean i'd rather more money than less. money probably agree. to be honest um but uh did it make you. happier. i don't know i don't haven't really. thought about it i i. i'm sure there's some i'm sure having. more at some point will make you a bit. happier. mm-hmm right i'm sure as you said.

there's probably a limit to that though. right. yeah but i'm not like i don't buy a lot. of stuff. so i don't know like. yeah i just don't buy a lot of stuff so. when you look forward into your future. then. what is it that you're aiming for. and and why does that matter. [Music]. look uh you know um. i think part of me would love to figure. out myself. um uh may sound kind of weird but.

just when you start this thing you're on. this. journey and the journey sort of propels. it has a life of its own basically it's. probably the best way to put it. you start getting a lot of customers you. start getting a lot of riders start. getting restaurants you get investors. and. and the things moving and you're moving. along with it. in many cases in a very deliberate way. in many cases. you're along for a journey and so this. thing. has a life of its own and.

it it it it is pretty interesting to. take a step back and think okay. is this journey completely everything. that. i had in mind and i wanted to do or were. there just a lot of parts of it that. were. it's like a wave kind of taking you. along. and i'd love to figure that out a bit. to be honest right i don't that makes. any sense. yeah so what i heard was you're trying. to understand if your own personal.

journey. is completely aligned with the journey. of the company as as it grows because. the two entities you know especially. i'm guessing at the very start they're. so interlinked. it's your life it's your everything but. at some point you have to kind of. separate. i think not necessarily i'm not saying. resign anything but separate. your life and your ambitions from that. because they're so intertwined and it. becomes difficult i'm not even saying. separate necessarily but just like. having a better understanding. of what your role and what will wants.

from his life and what he's interested. in and. yeah and i think i i wonder if other. people feel that way i don't know. maybe you've asked that question i know. how you feel everyone's that sits here. that's a. founder of a big business feels that way. because it's just all consuming. yeah yeah tom sat there last week he. said the same thing did he yeah he's. like he was he was he had a red phone in. his bedroom he was. he had from what he described he had. very little life he mean he said his. relationships broke down. french he said i think his friendships. were okay um but he had this red phone.

in his bed. or bedroom that would ring when there. was emergencies he was consumed by it he. had a crushing weight every time he woke. up in the morning. and so now that he's he's left he's now. discovering. pottery and all of these other sort of. personal things that he's doing just for. his own. personal reasons which were probably. impossibly hard to do when he was. being dragged well i think yeah yeah i. think that's interesting yeah when you. start something. and it really becomes something it has a. gravitational pull of its own. and the question is you know are you.

this thing or you in the orbit. right yeah it's a little hard sometimes. to to. to separate those two things so that's. something i'd love to kind of understand. how do you go about. understanding that i was going to ask. you man you're the one that talks. oh god a therapist probably and really. trying to i think you're just. talking about it i think because even as. far as i don't think we get much time to. talk about these things. no we're just being dragged by the. emails and the. urgent that's what i mean. so you have to create space right to i.

think you have to i think and i think it. will help with business as well. right to take a step back to to remove. yourself and just. like think about other stuff and when. you step back in. that's why i do think going on holiday. is really you know you know it's funny. it's like. i didn't take one for seven eight years. just didn't. um which is like kind of stupid honestly. but maybe in the first few years i could. maybe that was fine. but just having the ability to step away. for a week. and do something totally different i.

think is incredibly important. you got any holidays planned for to to. do exactly that this whole travel thing. is. a bit problematic and if you were to go. on holiday do you think you could you. could relax. um it's hard it'll pre it takes me about. three days. so i need to go on a holiday longer than. four days yeah i think that's what i. need to do. yeah well listen um when you do figure. out those. existential uh answers. and you've you've had time to meditate. and go to the beach and.

uh figure out that's that point of. separation that you describe. do come back on the podcast and we'll. talk about that then because i'd love to. know the answers. um but i want to thank you for coming. here today and having this conversation. with me thanks steven super fascinating. thank you um and it's so it's so. inspiring. and interesting how there's so many. similarities. with with founders that have gone on. that journey doesn't seem like there's. many differences however the character. that's gone on that journey always seems. to be. really really different and you are you. know remarkably unique so you hear.

the same things a oh yeah the like. fundamentals of. the journey and what it does to you and. how it feels is always the same. but then the the differences and the. nuances are in. the like the pilot yeah and how he. addresses the and how he or she. feels about or addresses those that. experience and that usually relates to. the younger years and where you. developed your resilience or your. perspective on the world. um but yeah super fascinating super. inspiring thank you so much for coming. today thank you. now you're a very very busy guy thank.

you for the huel. it was delicious i'm not even gonna have. to plug it you've done it all for me. you've done my job thank you. just trying to make it easier you're. right you've made it really easy thanks. thank you appreciate it appreciate you. thank you. [Music].

you.