Cole Sprouse: My Narcissistic Mum Sacrificed My Childhood For Fame! | E229

have you ever had a conversation like. this one publicly no I think it'll be. fun all Sprouse from Disney Channels The. Sweet Life is acting Cody Riverdale Big. Daddy friends you're my hero thank you. sweet pea were you pushed into acting I. would hardly call it pushing because I. was eight months old single mom two twin. boys put food on the table so the choice. never really existed you guys are big. stars now yeah. my mother was living vicariously through.

the success of her children a person. that grapples with mental illness drug. abuse but primarily narcissism. a wicked narcissism. but that selfishness is something that. the legal system also observed and said. that she was unfit the court had to step. in. your relationship with acting and the. entertainment industry it's been a. journey I loved being on stage I didn't. like the [ __ ] that came with it this. industry encourages the worst qualities.

of you selfishness greed you know. authenticity and vulnerability are not. really encouraged trades how do you feel. about that you're given these lessons in. your life so that you can triumph over. them and use the traits that you've. acquired from those lessons over time to. carve out who you are I've got two. pictures here then what are the words. unsaid to this individual. [Music]. I'd probably kick his ass.

before we get into this episode just. wanted to say thank you first and. foremost for being part of this. community. um the team here at the diver Co is now. almost 30 people and that's literally. because you watch and you subscribe and. you um leave comments and you like the. videos that this Show's been able to. grow and it's the greatest honor of my. life to sit here with these incredible. people and just selfishly ask them. questions that I'm pondering over or. worrying about in my life but this is. just the beginning for the day of this. year we've got big big plans to scale. this show and to every corner of the.

world and to to diversify Our Guest. selection and that's enabled by you by a. simple thing that you guys do which is. to watch so if there's one thing you. could do to help this show and to help. us continue to do what we do it's just. to hit the Subscribe button if you like. this show if you like what we do here if. you watch these episodes please just hit. that subscribe button means the world. let's get on with it. [Music]. code yes okay much of what I do here is.

I'm especially at the start of these. conversations is I'm trying to. understand somebody you know I get to. see the Finish Line I get to see their. achievements the behaviors their. personality during my research and I'm. always trying you know this is. ultimately why this podcast came to be. on one hand in the name you hear the. Diary of a CEO and it was really me. trying to show that there's this other. side of these people including myself. there's this other side that we don't. often talk about and on the other hand. just from a very personal perspective. I've come to learn I'm so interested in. like human beings why they do what they.

do and what causes them to do what they. do at the very core of it. um what do I need to know about you when. if we Zoom back to your earliest years. to understand the most influential. things moments influences that caused. you to be the complex inspiring. individual you are today hmm. I mean I'm really glad I'm doing this. podcast with you at this time in my life. because for the last year and a half. I've really been thinking about. questions like this what what is it that. that still compels me uh into certain.

professional Pursuits or artistic. Pursuits now. um I think when I was younger it was uh. it was definitely a financial pressure. there were kind of two kinds of kids uh. working kids really there was the kids. that were doing it to put food on the. table for Mommy and Daddy and then like. the thespian children you know like like. Mommy I want to go into acting and they. would show up and it would be this huge. gap between philosophies. um between like yeah man it's a job and.

like no this is a this is a craft this. is you know this is an art. uh and those kids kind of showed up. around 14 and for me I think. I had trained to kind of workaholism. since I was a child uh in order to one. feel valued by my environment. uh both immediate family and audience in. very many cases that has stuck with me a. work ethic that has stuck with me now to. this day like I I do not feel good when.

I am not working and I think a lot of. people can say that uh and that's. something I've been trying to unpack. over the over the last year and a half. is what would happen if I just simply. stepped away for good and enjoyed my. life which is really the purpose of why. we're all here. um would I be content with sitting down. and fishing and growing my own. vegetables and you know living. sustainably or would I get so. disenfranchised and bored that I would. have to take back to the Arts in some.

way or another and I think I think the. pressure of my upbringing really. compelled me to continue doing what I am. today I cannot live without the Arts I. mean I I cannot live without performance. or expression in some kind because it's. truly all I know and have known since I. was eight months old. since you were eight months old yeah you. hold the record for being. the guest on this show that started. working the earliest tell me tell me. Well to be fair I don't know if we can. call it work I don't I don't believe I. cued into Consciousness until about like.

10 years ago. um when you're a baby you have that kind. of lantern Consciousness where only you. know whatever exists is only in your. immediate purview and then as you age. you know when you start to become less. present you're like wow I'm an adult and. I feel like [ __ ] all the time. um. so I don't know about if I I perceived. it as work but it certainly infused. within me a kind of work ethic as I have. aged. um but yeah it established a. relationship with work.

it did. I mean it started for me financially uh. single mom two twin boys put food on the. table she is still able to be a mother. while we can still pursue a sort of uh. Improvement of our lifestyle and and. very many ways she was living. vicariously through the success of her. children but I think uh it's certainly. developed a relationship to. uh professionalism much earlier than. almost anyone else I know.

will you will you use the word pushed. earlier were you pushed into acting in. your view well I didn't you know I would. hardly call it pushing because I was. eight months old I don't even think I. would I knew you know I was on screen I. don't remember much of like the early. early the diaper commercials and things. like that so the choice never really. existed. I was there. that's it how do you feel about that.

I think gratefulness and ungratefulness. can exist simultaneously and I I am. tremendously grateful of the financial. stability I have acquired now as a 30. year old and being able to say yeah I'm. okay now. um. I think in many ways I traded sort of. the lantern consciousness of Youth and. sort of the Carefree presentedness of. Youth for financial stability that I.

would come to appreciate as an older man. but. um. I don't regret too much. I don't I I think if I were to sit here. and talk about regretting my my. childhood within the industry I think. that would be silly it toughened the. hell out of both my brother and I and. many kids that go through that same. thing. um but I'm grateful I'm grateful for the. financial stability of it yeah and I.

also am grateful to have done it in a. time where you could get your Gladwell. 10 000 hours in anonymously you know if. you did a crappy direct DVD movie Just. for kicks I'm looking at you for anyone. who knows this uh if you did your crappy. soccer movie. it would go to the back of Blockbuster. and no one would see it now with social. media I mean. there's no way that you can. that you can cut your teeth in silence. anymore everyone sees your portfolio.

globally and you're expected to put it. on display I find it you know I I feel. quite afraid for young actors now who. have to hone their craft over time but. do it to a global audience that sucks. you've got a you've got a twin brother. yes um 15 minutes older than you yes as. he always likes to yes help people in my. face. your parents you mentioned single mother. I am as I read through your story I saw. a ton of similarities between the way.

you described your relationship with. your with your mother and the way that I. often describe the relationship still to. this day with my mother can you tell me. about both your your mother and your. father and the journey you kind of went. on I know at five years old roughly they. divorced sure I I don't remember the. exact timeline of divorce. um but I remember only having one memory. of them being together uh when I was. very very young and then from that point. on my father was in Switzerland and my. mother was in LA he would eventually.

move out to LA in order to try and. repair the family. uh but my mother was. um still is uh the kind of tortured. artist type she struggled with uh in. very many ways her place in the world. she she. I think she found a tremendous amount of. self-identity through motherhood and. tried to turn it into a profitable. business at the same time which for. identical twin boys going into acting is.

sort of economic loophole through labor. laws that can be incredibly profitable. um so that's what she did and as I've. thought about it it seemed like to me it. made a lot of financial sense to her to. put us into acting it made I think it's. satisfied some sort of narcissism that. she probably had in order to be. recognized as this sort of artistic. success. uh she was a wonderful painter so she. always wanted sort of artistic.

legitimacy and validation. But as time went on. uh. I think the entertainment industry just. kind of broke her you know this this. this industry in very many ways. it. encourages the worst qualities of you. as a person. um. narcissism. selfishness.

greed a lot of these things that we have. come to know is practically cardinal. sins. um it's one of those things that uh. encouraged a kind of selfishness that. was. uh directly opposed to the very. fundamental idea of motherhood. and As I Grew Older in my case the court. had to step in and Rend my brother and I. towards our father who's an incredible. guy. um but that selfishness is something.

that the legal system also observed and. uh said that she was unfit. and I think as I've aged and I've looked. back on a lot of the circumstances of. that entire environment I see a person. that grapples with. mental illness drug abuse. but primarily narcissism. a wicked narcissism the inability to to. perceive anything outside your own.

perspective would probably be the. biggest sickness I see. and uh. that just doesn't work with me and the. mother that just doesn't work with being. in a family in general. you know when. when it rains it rains on everyone's. roofs. that's how it goes it takes a village. man. and selfishness. that is encouraged very much like I said. from the industry just doesn't really.

work. it doesn't really work for being a. mother. it's easy to look at this that situation. objectively and go okay just don't speak. to them but this is your mother yeah. that's something I've dealt with a lot. too. that's my question which is like how do. you how have you tried to separate the. two there's so many people listening to. this right now who have a member of. their family that is a toxic influence. in whatever way and they struggle with. this idea that it's a big one yeah right. like because they're blood I have to.

persist with the relationship I have to. tolerate it whereas if this was someone. who was I just met on the street or in. school I would [ __ ] I would I would. chop up later straight away right. have you dealt with with the duality of. both it being blood but also being. unacceptable Behavior yeah it's a great. question. um. I don't think you ever fully reconcile. it I think it's the difference between. this like kind of immortal abstract. connection to someone this thing that we.

call love this this energy not to sound. to California you know but this this. this sort of a mortal connection between. a mother and a child or a father and a. son or or whatever it is. um. and how do you distinguish that. uh from anyone else who you would. immediately cut off. and I think for me I I've recently you. know. I've recently arrived at the philosophy.

that almost everything is is some sort. of lesson that we must take and I think. lessons like this when it comes to. parents when it comes to people who are. supposed to be these sort of. um. Immortal almost god-like figures in in. your life especially during your youth. like. that is the greatest lesson for your. Humanity that you can acquire you know. the distinction between love and care. and abandonment and pain as you grow uh.

I really. I wouldn't call myself a religious man. but I I do believe that everyone is put. here in your life to have these. interactions with you for some kind of. reason and I know that sounds like. fadedness which can be you know we'll. leave that for another podcast but. um. I think it's uh. I think it's a lesson that you have to. learn and it's all in a way reflecting. back and carving you into the person.

that you're supposed to be I also think. it tests your patience and your love. and the people that really persist and. continuously try and find the love after. all the pain consistently we arrive to. the the care and the connection and the. love. even though you've been you know. deeply wounded by the ones who are. supposed to be at your Round Table those. are the strongest individuals in my. opinion. you know if you can if you can. consistently on the other come to the.

other side of that conversation and go. I will still choose to care I will still. choose to love. um. that speaks a lot about you. at some point you have to put your love. for yourself of course fast it's the old. oxygen mask analogy your journey with. with your mother you're very young you. don't really know what's going on sure. you're acting you're doing these things. at some point in your adolescence or. Beyond you figure out that this is not. normal behavior this is not acceptable. behavior for a mother and a son sure.

when was that. I mean. I guess when Social Services came. knocking it's usually when it happens. um I don't know I would go over to my. father's house because the court gave. primary custody to my mother and this is. one I don't know too much about the UK. legal system in this regard but the. United States legal system is incredibly. biased towards uh towards the mother in. cases of divorce and custody and in this.

case it certainly should have been my. father taking custody. um and this is obviously a case-by-case. basis but. um I would go into you know we'd we'd. spend some time with my father like once. a week and we wouldn't be able to eat. candy and do whatever the [ __ ] we wanted. he would you know make us go and. exercise and play outside and. there was a regiment. there was a healthy regimen it wasn't. you know we weren't a lot we we weren't.

allowed to do whatever the [ __ ] we. wanted and I think at that point I was. going at when you're a child you go man. this is no fun but as you as you sort of. pan out for a moment and you go wow I'm. actually feeling a lot better here I'm. present here I'm I'm happy here even. though I don't get to eat ice cream all. the time you know so am I making sense. with this please um Social Services. don't get called for eating ice cream no. no they don't and I won't go too much. into that because I don't want to make. this whole podcast about another young. man in LA with mommy issues yeah uh but.

I do think that that. the circumstances of my life are are at. least my childhood are much like the. sort of cliche narrative that you hear a. lot about child stars but. um I don't talk about it too much. because I don't ever want to be. perceived as a victim of it I am not and. have never been and never will be a. victim of any circumstance that I am in. I don't wear victimhood on my shoulder I. don't like to act like I am my wounds.

and to repeatedly be reminded of my. wounds. um. what happened in my youth happened and. carved me and forged me into the person. I am today for better and for us right. for better for purely better even. through pain. we trade trauma for wisdom that's what. we do as humans when we go through heavy. experiences it deepens our eyes you know. I I I think for me.

the reason I haven't really talked about. it too much in the past is because one. the media has a way of sensationalizing. scars and victimhood like this is a. person's character and in very many ways. it is but they don't talk about. the strength that is the byproduct of. pain they talk about the pain which is. useless like it it all it does is. perpetuate the past which I think is is. or a pain that existed in the past. rather than going my god look how well.

he's done for himself even though he's. had such a tough tough upbringing you. know I think Oprah is another wonderful. example of this where her story her. origin tale so to speak is is very well. known. um and look at what a beautiful example. of success that she's become over time. you know that to me is the most. beautiful way that I think media can. sensationalize a story of pain but I. find that it's oftentimes not and I also.

feel like we're in a climate right now. that. really encourages people to talk about. the victimization of pain more than they. do about the triumph over it the. strength that comes as a byproduct of. that pain and so that's mainly why I. don't talk about it too much because I. don't want to be that guy you know I. don't want to be that guy that's like. are we all the time no man you you're. given these lessons in your life so that. you can.

triumph over them and use use the traits. that you've acquired from those lessons. over time to to carve out who you are. one of the things I've mulled over from. speaking to people on this podcast is. about this idea that that that trauma. you describe if it ever goes away you. know should it ask yourself that it's a. good question. it probably I have to say it probably. shouldn't because as you I said earlier. on it's a lesson that you learned so.

that you could deal with your. environmental circumstance and just like. the lesson I learned of not putting my. hand into fire I'm not going to unlearn. that at 30. no there's no therapy that. could that could help me worse and. unfortunately I'm speaking for myself. here I don't know about you but I'm a. dumbass that needs to learn by his own. mistakes I mean I can watch my father go. hey man yeah you need to drink water at. this Watering Hole but I you know you. can't drag me there and make me drink I. have to make mistakes in order to learn. from my mistakes and a lot of my friends.

are very similar but um. I don't think I don't think those. lessons should ever go away like I said. about my my validation thing sticking. sticking around with me sure what stuck. around with you. um the workaholism is definitely stuck. with me uh I need validation a lot. I think that's a pretty common. uh uh thing for most artists just to. have. um but I am. the byproduct of the byproduct of.

um moments of incredible narcissism and. moments of severe self-loathing and. right in the middle is when I do my best. work. um but a lot of that. operation and the fluctuation between. those two things uh is determined by. people going goddamn you're good what if. they say what if they invalidate what if. they say God damn you suck I spiral of.

course but I don't let it hang on me I. try not to let it hang on me what does a. spiral look like. um man maybe I should just run away and. and not do this and you know get some. chickens and raise you know get some. eggs and live off the grid and and. whatever it is. um. it also manifestes the inability to sort. of say. your desires out loud for fear of of. looking like a fool.

um I think. La does that too because I think. vulnerability is just something that we. don't really encourage here in Los. Angeles why is that. um because it's not cool. but it's not cool. uh. uh to angelino's because someone that is. cool hasn't said it like that before do. you know what I'm saying it's a lot of. imposter syndrome in Los Angeles and so. you know authenticity and vulnerability. are not really encouraged trades. um before you arrived I was saying to my.

team. I was like I watch all these interviews. with people like yourself from La that's. a Stars actors and I go no one's ever. asked them an interesting question it. seems but genuinely that's how before. you walked in this is what I was saying. because Lucy Hale was the same she goes. oh this is the first time I've had a. deep conversation and I'm like why and. then I mimicked what interviewers are. like he was like hey uh where did you. get your shoes yeah. yeah. yeah of course who the [ __ ] wants to.

talk about that does people actually you. know yeah yeah yeah I mean because it's. safe yeah right because it's a safe. thing you know this is why I love the. podcast space is because the podcast. space creates new ones yeah nuance and. and context a viewed it gives you the. whole context right there which is. something that a lot of people you know. in interview settings or otherwise are. completely devoid of when you're selling. a publication when you're selling an. interview with someone on paper you. don't really get the context oh well the. context was it was pouring rain outside.

for the last blah blah blah and you. arrive to the studio and you got to sit. down and have a tad and we talked about. having similar birthdays and we talked. about Botswana beforehand blah blah blah. blah blah you know you get the context. you get the connection which I think is. gorgeous. and I think it also creates a really. beautiful way to discover the honest. humanity and opinion of people. because. we're you know entertainment media it's. Sensational we're only going to sell the. worst person in the world and the best. person in the world we're not going to. sell the humans in between.

you know and and most of us fit as soon. as a kind of gray morality that doesn't. really you know we're not not all of us. are these [ __ ] outliers that are like. these really firm radical [ __ ] people. that are that are saying these. radicalized things in order to preach to. the to the sensationalism of the. internet most of us have these kind of. moderate places that we sit. um so I think the podcast space is. [ __ ] awesome for that man you really. get to to sit and connect to people and. have a conversation and for people that.

are interested they [ __ ] listen it's. great a quick word from one of our. sponsors I've got a tip for all of you. that will make your virtual meeting. experiences I think 10 times better as. some of you may know by now Blue Jeans. by Verizon offers seamless high quality. video conferencing but the reason why I. use blue jeans versus other video. conferencing tools is because of. immersion their tools make you feel more. connected to the employees or customers. you're trying to engage with and now. they're launching one of their biggest. feature enhancements to impact virtual. events so far called Blue Jean Studio I.

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with your relationship with. acting sure and the entertainment. industry yeah it's been a journey oh for. sure man. can you give me kind of like a timeline. of that journey and how you've felt. through the process with your. relationship with acting absolutely. um. started at eight months old. when you say that it still baffles my. mind diaper commercials things like that. dick commercials. um. worked on a sitcom for a bit. uh still wasn't really fully conscious.

uh we were still doing the baby acting. thing I did a sitcom called Grace Under. Fire a couple other little TV spots here. and there identical twins switching. places blah blah blah then we booked big. daddy with Adam Sandler when we were. around six. um and that was like the big thing at. the time this point about the use of. twins in acting yeah some people might. not understand the context oh okay you'd. like me to explain yeah children can. only work a certain amount of hours. which is a very strange thing to say out. loud. um in the button factory in the coal.

mines we can only work for two hours a. day uh no but we can only work for a. certain amount of hours. um and so if you have two twins that. look identical to each other that people. can't perceive as anything other than. the same character you double the amount. of hours you can work. which is an incredible economic loophole. for a lot of young actors because to. clean the jackpot yeah yeah of course of. course it was great. work the system baby but the problem is.

when you start. at least from that philosophy and you go. into an art you know. um we've commodified almost all of the. Arts that exist but when you enter into. a form of expression in a. professionalized or or work Dynamic it's. hard to see that as a pursuit of passion. so my journey through acting over time. has been one of trying to balance art. and Commerce in a way one for the money.

too for the show sort of thing where. I need to be reminded consistently to. myself that I love this thing do you. know what I'm saying. making my money becoming financially. stable getting financially stable taking. jobs that are uh. that aren't paying as much but doing. cool projects and making yourself feel. more in love with the discipline. and I think you know. this is this is a particular approach.

that has to come from a certain. socioeconomic background if you are. you know this nepo baby conversation has. been huge out here in La I don't know. how how big it's been out in the UK but. um if you come from a financially stable. background and you can see it with any. actor that has a really Stellar resume. where you're like God you've picked. great movie after great movie after. great movie you've been a part of all. these really cool projects well they. probably had a lot of financial. stability because those projects pay you.

[ __ ] nothing. right so if you have the sort of Patron. that is allowing your freedom of. expression to take these artistic. projects and reinvigorate this passion. for you even in the face of. commodification of an expression then. you can uh you can have a really Stellar. career but if you also have to make. money alongside it you're probably not. going to take the super cool jobs you. gotta you know you gotta sell drinkable. yogurt uh for a little bit in order to. go to college you know what I mean yeah.

yeah this is the balance between art and. commerce that a lot of people don't. understand in almost every other art at. least in photography this is a great. example no one looks at. someone doing a commercial gig and then. going back to the editorial world and. going why would they do that commercial. again yeah it's a little strange but in. acting they do there's a huge division. between those two people massive. Big Daddy yeah that's where we left off. wasn't it yes big daddy so got Big Daddy. it's six. um Adam was just incredible we shot that.

movie for far longer than it needed to. be shot in New York City. um it's my first time going to New York. uh and then that was a whirlwind. were you cognizant at this point of your. feelings with acting that your. relationship with the industry no it was. super present okay which is good which. is what I think we're all trying to get. back to is this sort of lantern. consciousness of of Youth in terms of. acting this is a state of play because. no one should go into acting and be like.

I'm going to act. no that's. I don't think that's yeah I don't think. that's right. um but I was still very present at the. time. and then big daddy came out and. alongside it came this Whirlwind of. opinion and conversation and fame and. and all this sort of stuff. which would then which was very. polarizing but would lead me into I. worked on. um a couple other direct DVD movies at. the time for some cash money.

and then uh. did friends I was a recurring role on. friends and then. uh Dylan and I would end up booking. uh The Suite Life on Disney which of. course was another huge lifesaver. um and your relationship with acting at. this point is what you're very. commercial okay are you enjoying it. um not really because now it had become. a thing that was taking me away from. playing in the cul-de-sac with the.

friends you know what I mean so. I loved school like I loved going to. school I loved playing with my friends. and and all that sort of thing so at the. time I couldn't see it as anything other. than that but that's you know that's. what a child does. um. and then we did The Sweet Life and then. I actually really did not mind not going. to school so we were homeschooled from. The Suite Life lawnmowers and then every. every conversation because I kept a lot. of my super close friends you're 12 and. 15 at this point uh this would yeah so.

we did that from 12 to 18. 12 to 18. oh. in the Sweet Sweet Life yes would be The. Suite Life on Deck to spin off. um and when we got to high school age. all of my friends would tell me these. stories from high school American public. high school that was just like God damn. you lived through that [ __ ] I don't want. to be part of that at all this sounds. horrible and so then I was quite. thankful to not be doing that. um and then I went to college. you picked up photography around this. time I did around 18. I actually went to. London and the first time I went to.

London I said I should give myself a. camera and document my brother a nice. little journey through London I found a. really curious quote that you said about. the reason why you chose photography. sure. um relating to it allowed you to escape. your depression yeah yeah I think a lot. of people um. have sort of. discussed that one quote. um I I think I was certainly. I had gone through a huge breakup after.

college. right at the end of college. um and re and picked my camera up again. um and you put a lot of my emotional. state into just shooting hobbyism which. is a real wonderful uh thing to do when. you were feeling sad is pick up a hobby. dive into hobbyism. um. and so I pushed myself into a lot of. that.

uh and in very many ways it allowed time. to pass more quickly and for me to heal. more effectively yeah. but I also did it because I wanted to. express my vision. in very many ways when you're an actor. you are the byproduct of the writing the. direction and the editing and a lot of. people assume you have much more. creative agency over a project than you. do but I don't find that to be the case. when you're a commercial employee actor. you know when when you were working on. Commercial projects in very many ways. there's they're controlling the image of.

you that people are seeing. um and they control the takes and you're. as bound to the project uh as the. writing is good or bad and the directors. are changing week to week so it's a. difficult relationship to expression. and self-identity and I I think at the. time I was really looking for a way to. tell people hey. this is what I can do if I'm given. creative freedom. um I don't think I've achieved that. no your work is amazing as I was saying. she wasn't just blowing smoke up your. ass I I went on your website I thought.

oh we're moving into a new house me my. girlfriend I thought this would be. brilliant if we come out I'll just send. you something. yeah I hate I hate anything I I do after. two weeks so I'll send you some of the. newer stuff textbook creative yeah. when's the moment in your life where you. both loved and then the moment where you. hated acting the most I came back to it. yeah you know I used College yeah I was. at real fork in the road and I um. made a promise to someone that I would.

return to acting but I never anticipated. I would and I was reminded that I love. performance. which is I love to perform in front of. people. um and I love the presentedness of a. performance like when you wake up at the. end of the take and you go man I don't I. barely remember what I was even doing. right there that was I just felt that. um I love that I love performing for the. crew I love. I loved being on stage I didn't like the. [ __ ] that came with it. because when I was young.

you know acting was like the grilled. chicken of the dish it was like it was. the biggest part of the course and the. side salad was like the red carpet stuff. and and whatever the [ __ ] it is and now. that social media has made it so that. the whole thing's just a grilled chicken. salad now I mean like like the salad is. almost a bigger part of your success. than the act the act of performance and. I think in very many ways. you know your celebrity profile has been. become far too intermingled into your.

work as a professional and all of us. within the industry are recoiling and. trying to figure out a way to to. you know figure out how to deal with. that. I I was I have to be honest I had a good. laugh at your other Instagram account. camera duels yeah that's polarized a lot. of people but but I at the same time I. thought I underst. I read about your sort of social anxiety. that came with came along with the fame. and then I heard you'd created this. Instagram account of taking people. taking pictures of people taking.

pictures of you covertly without asking. permission and then I thought to myself. this is a great idea but it's going to. encourage it yeah of course it did yeah. I know it totally did which I I don't. mind as much. that it encourages people. um. because all it's done is just further. reinforce why I've done it yeah which is. like hey people are not going to care. about anything other than the uh then. bragging about a place they've been or a.

person they've seen. you know. how do you feel about that. uh I don't mind it because all of us. kind of just do it we're taught to do. that sort of thing. um but I don't know if I'd necessarily. make those people my friends how does. how does it feel to be on the receiving. end of it every day. I understand it did you always. um. yeah actually I did did you ever. struggle with it um of course I. struggled with it for sure I'm asking.

this for myself yeah yeah because well I. think look man we're always searching. for. um. a much deeper emotional connection to. another human being. you know it would I would much rather. have someone be like like this podcast. is a great example tell me about what it. was like growing up in your position and. if anyone ever asked me that I would be. an open book yeah you truly could come. up to me and ask me any question on the. street and I would probably hold a. tattoo with you.

um but people want to show others yeah. but I don't. um don't do that uh. but I think people want to want to show. what they're up to right now and that's. totally fine and natural. um well I don't know if it's natural but. uh we're you know we're conditioned to. do that. but I think you know. whether it's you know you're doing it. ironically or authentically or. you're truly excited or you admire.

someone or. you want to just prove to other people. I think most people have to understand. that there is probably a greater. connection to be made. that exists there's a choice that you. make when when you're asking for a very. surface level shallow interaction with. someone. um and that the alternative did exist. where you could probably deepen your. relationship to to. um an individual that you've wanted to. talk to. uh. so I don't really mind when people do it.

it just means that person's not going to. be a cool connection to me personally. like I'm not gonna remember that. connection in my life when I'm telling. stories and things. whereas you know I did a movie called. five feet apart which um which dealt a. lot with cystic fibrosis and I've had a. lot of. um. people who live with cystic fibrosis. come up to me and talk to me about. cystic fibrosis and and talk to me about. that film and those are Connections in. my opinion that have lasted with me I. remember almost every single.

conversation I've had with something. like that because it's not a uh yeah. let's take a pic it is hey man. um I want to let you know that I go. through this something that you were. trying to portray in this and and you. know this it affected me like this and. and it it's it's a discussion that. enriches both people. um and even if you don't like the. individual you know let's say you see. someone that you really don't like the. work of or you don't like the Persona of.

going up and asking them a question is. probably going to yield so much more to. you than the alternative but we want to. show everything on Instagram and social. media and Tick Tock and whatever it is. because we want. you know we're all creatures of. validation we want to see the likes and. and the whatever the [ __ ] it is and I'm. I've done it too I'm not saying I. haven't done it you know I've I've taken. a picture or tried to take a picture of. John C Reilly who I really admire you. know I there's a lot of people that I I.

deeply admire but if I were given the. choice between asking them a compelling. question and taking a photo I would. probably choose the compelling question. for sure that social anxiety if you will. really know what that's like people. without Fame will often experience. social anxiety for their own reasons as. well but when you say social anxiety can. you give me a picture of what that feels. like in reality oh sure uh pain and. image of it. you're very good at painting images with. your words by the way oh thank you. that's very you're enjoyable to listen. to you know what my social anxiety feels.

a lot like. sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit. too hot like the sauna right before you. have to get out you know what I mean. it's it's like this warm sort of. blanketing feeling but it's not warm. it's [ __ ] hot it's but it's a blanket. over me for sure and it it it's this. kind of. for me anxiety is really present even. though I'm thinking about future. possibility or past. um. past actions that I've made it is a.

consistent. um. I'm living in this I'm living in this. I'm living in this I'm living in this. I'm living in this and so in that way. it's almost blanketed over me. um. and what I'll do for that anxiety is is. I will. activate my five senses. what do I see. what do I smell. what can I hear. Can I taste anything. what do I feel on my skin and it. immediately grounds me in the present. these things are grounding mechanisms. that I really enjoy when I start to feel.

social anxiety have you learned that. somewhere. yeah I think I did where'd you where did. you learn that um well I did uh. I went to therapy I've had I've gone to. therapy off and on my whole life. um. but he was a wonderful man up in. Vancouver that taught me a sort of. grounding techniques. and he's right but I mean it does you. know it can be a therapist it can be a. father figure it can be anyone that. teaches you essentially the root of it. is be present grounded yeah it's it's.

it's you know all the Eastern. philosophers and the Buddhists were. trying to tell you to do this [ __ ] the. whole time meditate ground yourself in. the present you know grounding yourself. in the present is the greatest enemy of. anxiety. what other tools have you learned from. therapy I feel like in a. I can learn a lot from you without. having to pay the therapist sure well. that's flattering. um. yeah I try not to talk too much about. mental health just in general.

um. because everyone has an incredibly. personal relationship to it and I feel. like there's a lot of armchair experts. on the internet right now acting like. you know or diagnosing people or doing. stuff like that which I find Inc that is. so atrocious I can't believe people even. do that. um and I think the conversation about. around mental health unless it's being. done by truly a trained professional is. probably not the greatest thing to. listen to so with that disclaimer.

I will say. um whenever I'm feeling heightened. emotionally I will take a break from. whatever I'm doing I will truly walk. away. from whatever I am doing I will tell if. it is an argument with someone I will go. hey. right now I'm feeling some heightened. emotion if you don't mind let's pick up. this conversation about 20 minutes. give yourself time. you know I I try to approach everything. with a kind of logos that that. you know. allows me to think more clearly and.

calmly about what I do. um which can be off-putting to some. people. uh because not a lot of people like. being met uh. with logos when they're heightened. emotionally or being met with Solutions. when they're just trying to vent it's. one of the first things you learn when. you're in a serious relationship. especially as a guy. for sure because most a lot of a lot of. us are solution-based people you know um.

but. I'll take a break that's the that's. honestly the most helpful thing I've. done I'll also try and remind myself of. you know grounding myself in the senses. or I will uh I'll remind myself that. one you're not the only person that's. ever gone through anxiety or will ever. go through anxiety and two. um the problem as you perceive it the. the vastness of the problem is you. perceive it is not the way other people. perceive it what about your relationship. with boundaries what please explain what. so you know you're the very first story.

you told about being eight months old. eight months old you don't have. boundaries of course yeah so they are. obviously easily exploited as you grow. older sometimes when those boundaries. weren't firm when they were young and. you were maybe people pleasing or you. were seeking validation that can have a. sort of cascading effect into adulthood. what's your relationship been like with. saying no and protecting boundaries. whether it's professionally personally. in relationships well that's a great. question and one I'm far more qualified. to answer now than I was even two years.

three years ago. um. I can honest to God say that I did not. love myself enough as a younger man. especially my mid to late 20s for sure. did not love myself enough did not. respect my own boundaries what did that. look like. um that looked like rolling over in the. face of a lot of adversity especially. when it came to romantic relationships. um I was a people pleaser I I was a. people pleaser professionally I was a. people pleaser uh romantically I was.

practically a [ __ ] nurse to whoever. needed my help in very many ways likely. as a byproduct of my upbringing but. um what that meant was oftentimes. crossing my own boundaries as an attempt. to make others feel better. and as I've gotten older I've become. more okay with uh turning people off. which is all right. you know you're going to polarize. individuals you are going to get along.

with certain people and not get along. with other people that's totally okay. and I think as I've aged. I've tried to um. I've tried to remind myself yeah that. was an awkward interaction that was a. bad interaction with someone but you're. gonna have those man that's okay. move on. and as I've Loved myself now and. thankfully I'm I you know I'm in a. relationship right now with a woman. who's so emotionally understanding and.

and just the best and you know it helps. when others can be like yeah dude. encourage you in the right direction and. be like yeah it's okay like we're like. because I will I know myself I will fall. back on like are you all right like is. everything okay like like trying to. control a situation through making sure. everyone is happy you know but it's not. a you know it's not a [ __ ] video game. you can't get like the best solution. where everyone is okay sometimes you're. gonna really have to polarize some. people and that's all right my only.

boundaries I would say uh when it comes. to. when it comes to my professional career. or otherwise. um I really don't like condescension. so like if I feel condescension in any. sort of way if I see other people being. condescending to others if if if I can. sense a kind of pretentiousness or. condescension that's usually something. that will either take me to leave the. room or confront another person about it.

and be like hey why'd you why'd you do. that. what is um that relationship you. described what is love taught you about. yourself ah so much man. I've had. the pleasure of being in love three. times. the pleasure. um. I've had. I'd say three big relationships in my. life. three girlfriends in my life. um I mean my first one when I was like a. kid but that was just kind of puppy love. stuff and then I had one in college.

um I dated a co-star on Riverdale. um and now I'm I'm in love again and. every time it has been pretty distinct I. think maybe the first two college and my. last girlfriend were far more similar. because of me. uh because I was still approaching it. the same way. um and then I did a lot of self work and. I fell in love again.

um thankfully and it has taught me a lot. like I mentioned I was a people pleaser. I was deathly afraid of being perceived. as anything other than perfect for a. long time. and so I would roll over quite a bit in. order to make sure that. as long as they were happy that's what. love is you know as a sort of consistent. happiness. um and I was also actively suppressing. my emotions and like not really.

discussing what I actually felt about a. situation because I was afraid of. retaliation in very many ways. um I was afraid where did that come from. oh I mean certainly my youth certainly. my youth your youth I think growing up. in you know building an entire life and. business model off of the validation of. other people certainly made me. um open to it but I also think the first. relationship I ever had with with a. female figure which is the mother figure.

in everyone's life was an incredibly. tenuous and fractured relationship with. with um. with a a tortured individual which made. me go I can fix things don't worry I got. it you know no you're all good it's okay. um and I brought that in I brought that. in a lot were you trying to make her. happy. oh of course yeah I think so when I was. younger especially but even though I. wasn't an adult you know I didn't even.

know yeah yeah of course you don't speak. your pretty mother anymore I don't I. don't but. um. she put me on this path and there was. once a woman who was very clear-headed. and. who had a beautiful. vision of the kind of people my brother. and I could be and in very many ways I. honor. the dream she once had so that if she. were Lucid enough.

um. and came back and saw what I had become. she would go man I was right and in that. way it would validate the entire life of. pain and Trauma that she has gone. through are you are you sad about where. your relationship is with her of course. everyone is everyone is sad about. something that could I mean unless. you're a sociopath. um. when something beautiful and and lovely. goes rotten it can be a very sad thing.

um. and it does make me sad but. it's also life and that's the lesson. that I've had to learn from it is that. you know that sadness is okay it means. I'm human it means I loved something. outside of myself. in a way that was so beautiful and so. boundless that it that it makes me feel. one of the strongest and most Eternal of. human emotions which is sadness like. real sadness and that's okay do you do.

you does part of you like hold out and. this is kind of speaking from my. experience as well sure does part of you. kind of hold out for. things to just get better or go. completely wrong get better. outcome go completely wrong. um. I mean I'm sure you've reconciled this. as well but there's a part of you that. goes oh what if this is my last. communication with an individual you. know. of course you have how would that make. me feel as a consequence thereof how.

would it make you feel. if this was you've never got a speech. your mother again you know and going. back to the previous question. I tried for very very many years to try. and to try and do everything I could. um. but at some point or another it comes. down to the individual which is the. hardest part. like you want someone to change or do. something and this also goes to romance. this goes to friendships this goes to to. blood to whatever it is you can really.

yearn for someone to do the right thing. and the hardest part is even if you set. up the entire environment for them to do. so. uh unless they choose it for themselves. it's just not gonna happen and so I used. to blame myself quite a bit for not just. my relationship to blood but you know I. used to blame myself for all of the. relationships in my life going wrong. until I realized that yeah in almost. every relationship it takes two to tango. friendships romance blood some the other.

person has to be a participant in the. dance just as much as you are. participating in the dance in order for. the outcome to be the one that you guys. both desire when you say that you used. to blame yourself for relationships in. your life going wrong yeah does that. mean that you originally blamed yourself. for the relationship with either your. mother or father or the relationship. between you and your mother going wrong. um I did because unfortunately as a. consequence of being a working child. you're forced into an authority position. when you're quite small right which is. now you're the breadwinner of a family.

over the adults so in very many ways you. take this very strange like uh role of. authority and and positioning when it. comes to uh the subsistence of of a. nuclear family which is not a role a. child should be put in so when it does. go wrong as a natural byproduct of the. authority that you feel as a consequence. of you know your professional life you. can adopt some of the blame on yourself. which I will say I do not do anymore was.

that are you talking about the divorce. there are you talking about relationship. with your mother yeah just everything. work mother whatever it is super. interesting yeah. yeah I mean dude it's this is also like. it should be said that. the working child a a child that has. worked since they were eight months old. you have to understand that that is a. not to sound like a [ __ ] special. snowflake as an identical twin you know. what I mean which is the greatest. contradiction but.

that is a life. an upbringing that is very very very. very rare very rare not there's only a. handful of people that have that really. weird. um path through the world most of them. are in the United States and most of. them you know the sensationalism of. their of their upbringing is talked. about all over. um so that's um that comes with a lot of.

[ __ ]. and it affects to tie us all back I'm. getting us back good thank God for that. because I couldn't see how we'd make it. yeah. um that affects how you navigate. everything in your life your. relationships which is what we were. talking about friendships blood all that. stuff and my relationships were deeply. affected by my upbringing of course my. friendships were affected by my. upbringing my relationship to my family. was affected by my upbringing but at. some point or another you have to go. yeah I'm on the right path and even if.

it's not I'll try and make it the right. path and I'll grow from them what makes. you alive then like what brings what. brings your heart to life these days. passionate conversation really for sure. without a doubt how many of them have. you had lots publicly. not publicly No in fact I've only done. one other podcast. um and these kind of public. conversations are quite rare which is. why I love this medium so much but I but. I've I've thankfully I've surrounded. myself with individuals that are capable. of all having these conversations and.

for really diving into to what it is. that makes us all feel alive. um and I think. truthfully I think I think Seekers of. this kind of conversation find each. other it's weird they really do and you. can see it in others eyes like you can. see people that love this [ __ ] in their. eyes and so I thankful I I mean I host. dinner parties and stuff and try and get. as many people together to have these. sort of conversations and it can be a. little bit awkward for the first one. what are we talking about.

um but that's incredibly enriching to me. okay so you've just you've just he teed. this up so perfectly perfect hit it. everything you've just described. the type of person that likes deep. conversations is very much the type of. people that listen to The Diary of a CEO. and we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where guests write a question in. the diary for the next guest they never. get to see who they're writing it for so. because we know that the type of person. that listens to this is by by clear. um linkage terrible use of words the.

type of person that likes deep. conversations we wanted to take all of. the questions out of this diary that. have been written into them and allow. people to play at dinner parties the day. of SEO which is they can ask their. friends. deep conversations that have been. written into this book you also get to. see who wrote the the question for the. first time I want to play with you yeah. please right now ask me some questions I. am I took some cards out there's about. 100 cards in total but I took the ones. that I thought were the biggest stitches. oh man that's a great idea I love that. so what I'm gonna do I will also answer. one yeah but I'm gonna lay them out here.

you pick one that you want to answer. whichever one feels right for you then. I'll pick one as well and I'll answer it. we'll go through the all of them so. we'll pick one at a time. one. can I pick one so so you answer that one. I answer this one yeah this is by Tim. Grover this is what is your dark side. um. I think the Dark Side of myself is. definitely. the narcissistic side of myself that can.

come out when I am feeling super proud. of something that I do and I will. oftentimes try to Humble that it'll get. me seeking decadence it'll get me. seeking external stimulation from my. environment and yearning for that which. is you know what every stoic philosopher. would be like dude shut up. um and I I really relate to that I think. my worst side is the side that is. seeking validation from other people. um rather than understanding and placing.

myself in my environment and going wow. I'm so privileged to have what I have. and where I'm at and I believe that yeah. okay mine is from wilster who is an. expert on the topic of status who wrote. a book about it and which is kind of. about validation wanting to be famous. for sure who is the person you'd most. like to say sorry to but haven't. I told you I picked these questions to. stitch you up but I decided to answer. them when I laid them out so my would. actually be my mother yeah because she.

didn't get an education so. um I've often framed her in my story as. being. I don't know like she she's been the. center point of difficult moments in my. life but she is also like the 95 of my. story with her is just this woman that. absolutely turquoise absolutely loves me. and my whole life her whole life is me. and and you know like growing up she did. everything for us she she raised us five. days a week she can't read or write. herself growing up she raised these four. kids that I think are all pretty good. decent kids. um so I'd say that I'd probably say.

sorry to her for not spending enough. time in conversation talking about her. Brilliance and the fact that I am the. reason she's the reason I'm an. entrepreneur great answer man great. answer. I don't know I don't know. Rochelle Humes cool. if you could turn back the clock on one. day this year and do it differently what. day would it be and why.

that's difficult. I try not to live doing that too much. where I feel like I need to change. something. but. um. so I am sober. I've been sober for about a year and. some change and it's been a wonderful. thing in my life. um. but I have. thankfully had the self-awareness to.

apologize to some people in my life in. the past in a similar way that the card. that you just pulled. um. and in order to protect another person's. feelings I did not tell them that I was. going to be apologizing to an individual. um because I was afraid of the. consequences of that face-to-face. meeting I know this is a little. confusing but if I could turn back and. do it differently I would be so. transparent about that meeting over.

coffee to the affected individuals in. order to be like hey I'm letting you. know this is happening I know that this. is blah blah blah but I just want to let. you know. with full transparency this is what it. is blah blah blah. um. but otherwise I try not to live like. that it's unclear you apologize to. someone and there was there was a. repercussion of that apology which you. wish you'd kind of foresaw and addressed. yeah okay exactly right cool exactly.

right because sometimes meeting with. other people makes others uncomfortable. like they're you know especially. especially as you grow older some people. are like why'd you meet with that. individual but I think for me I would. have just been super. super transparent about it I'd be like. hey this is happening blah blah. um and that's been a consequence of the. work I've done as I've cleaned my life. up so I look back on that one day and I. go. hey man the work you did should have. told you that you could have been fully. transparent with that even if it made.

other people uncomfortable and I. probably would have done that different. but otherwise. I try not I really try not to think like. that because they're lessons right. because it's all lessons because I made. that mistake for a reason you know and. now I'll never do it again and the fact. that I even said that as an answer means. I've already learned my lesson you'd. rather the lesson was in the past yeah. of course of course and in the future at. some point it's a place okay here we go. tell me something about yourself that. nobody knows and would be surprised to. know about you [ __ ] you know let's uh.

hear about your internet history bro. Marissa Pierre um. so I had a guest on this podcast called. called Steve Peters who's just this. incredible like psychiatric psychiatric. therapist etc etc. um. after he left I contacted him and spoke. to him about something I was dealing. with this predicament in my mind and I. was bouncing between two outcomes and. it's the first time in my entire life.

and I've spoken to so many therapists. that I've ever spoken to a therapist. privately to try and resolve something. and I say that because I say that for. one honestly just for one reason which. is I've spent so long on this podcast. talking to therapists including Marissa. pear who wrote this question and. Marissa's Marissa Pierre but I've never. spoken about the fact that I too have. spoken to a therapist about personal. challenges that I've faced and Marissa. Pierre is just one of the best ever and. so is um Professor Steve Peters do you. feel embarrassed I think I did I think I.

did I think I think I always have I. think it's funny because. this is therapy for me and I lay it all. out you know I yeah the diversity was. Diary of a CO started as like my therapy. it was like me writing things in this. diary then sharing with them with the. world but I despite my guests. telling me about the profundity of. speaking to someone else as you have. today. as you did in Canada I believe I've. never done it myself until that moment. where I spoke to Steven said this is. what I'm dealing with like how do I.

navigate through this and it's. incredible. I I think it'll. because you can't your brain can't think. yourself out of the [ __ ] no I I also. think a good therapist is like you know. your first house like like it arrives to. you precisely when it's supposed to you. know it because ultimately what we're. all seeking at least in therapy with the. help of a trained professional but it's. a human connection just to another. person you know we all want our Goodwill.

Hunting you know we want to we want to. sit down and have someone who has a. a deeply enticing personal connection to. you and goes I hear you man I hear you. you're okay like have you thought about. it this way and so I do find a lot of. these kind of conversations can be. inching close to that and in that way. I'll say I do think there are a ton of. different forms of therapy you know of. self-soothing of methods I find a. tremendous therapy by going into the. Wilderness as an example you know I I.

find that a really healthy thing for me. to do to sort of Disconnect and leave. and go into the woods and do all that. sort of stuff but I also think the other. stuff is super valuable too and I I. don't think there's any shame in talking. about it I think that's great I've. thought about it so many times in my. life like there's been so many moments. in my life I think like 10 where I've. seriously considered like I need I need. to go speak to someone else about this. because I can't figure this out myself I. remember like maybe two three years ago. I was there was some like business.

um challenge I was facing and it was. just like keeping me up all night and I. remember going on the internet. contacting someone and being like can I. speak to you about this and it's because. I'm looking for a trained professional. like that can coach me through my. thought processes and what you've. described is so interesting to me. because you said two things the first. thing you said is therapy in essence is. like a pursuit of connection with. someone and then the second thing you. said is about how nature is therapy. these are all things that humans knew. very well in our Natural Life ten.

thousand years ago man look I studied. archeology. and franchise over time because I know. that [ __ ] isn't that funny that therapy. is just being more human oh I I also. think look. we just wanna. we want to be heard man we we look for. soul. we all look for soul in other people we. want to know that Soul exists we want to. justify our soul by looking for soul in. other people and when you find people. with soul you want to hang on to people. with soul that's what we do.

you know and I I think when you're. bearing your soul especially in a sort. of therapy environment you want someone. to to pick it up and go God I see this. thing man yeah I see it I did something. like this. so I mean for me it took me a while. finding a therapist that was um. that was willing to be Hands-On you know. there's this sort of uh hands-off. approach to a lot of. um you know. mental health work just in general and I.

I just I can't do that man I need. someone like you know in a sort of. similar way to this there's two people. sitting down going God man yeah for sure. if therapy is is there for connection. then the thing that drives us to therapy. must be disconnection a feeling of. Distinction of course. when that disconnection can be anything. disconnection from nature from people. from life from purpose whatever yeah. it's it's. you know you become afraid of. your own soul being too disconnected. from from everything around you or that.

or that you're that you feel so entirely. alone or unique that that. no one else really understands you is a. hard thing so so when you go into. therapy as an example and someone goes. yeah dude I hear you you know but then. if the if the [ __ ] alarm rings and. they go your hours up okay that to me uh. that's this connection that's just. connection because then it feels like a. monetary exchange I'm like I don't want. that all right. okay I'll take this haven't I done two. oh yeah that's the other one okay.

how could you be more authentically You. by Fern cotton. is that pronounced correct yeah nailed. it perfect how could I be more. authentically you I mean I think stuff. more like this I gotta be less afraid of. of people going wow. he said what. I just don't care anymore I'm like I'm. dude I'm 30. I like I lived a lot of. that anxiety [ __ ] in in my 20s and I. truly believe that your 20s are meant.

to be a petri dish for mistake that. you're supposed to learn lessons from. and go into your 30s and be be better at. and I and I don't know I think I am. practicing authenticity in a way but I. think it's complicated because I don't. know. if a life in the in entertainment people. actually seek authenticity which is. something I'm dealing with and I think. for acting it's also a real dilemma. because the more you show an authentic. version of yourself the harder it can be.

for people to suspend that and see you. as a character. um which is something I'm sort of. sitting down and having a conversation. with myself about. um. but I'm not going to control what other. people think you know and I think uh. I think I am practicing authenticity in. very many ways how could I be more. authentically me. um stand on my ground set my boundaries. you know. recognizing my own bottom line behaviors. before I you know.

stumble into that [ __ ] um. have you ever felt the cost of. authenticity of inauthenticity of. inauthenticity yeah yeah what is the. cost in your view. exposure. if you're exposed to be a fraudster yeah. if you're exposed to be a sort of snake. oil salesman that can be quite. embarrassing. um in inauthenticity can also get you. into a place where you actually don't. have the skill set to perform whatever. you're trying to perform but I also. think inauthenticity or feelings of.

inauthenticity are a natural part of of. Courage you're going to doubt yourself a. little bit before you go into anything. and I I don't know I always find. my most effective uh means of surviving. anything is just kind of being thrown. into the fire and being like all right. I'm here what are we doing let's go. all right here we go [ __ ] no stitch. up. James Watt what is the belief that you. hold that most people disagree with you. on so many in fact yeah that's great man. that's good.

um the first one I'm gonna say is what's. the thing that most people disagree with. me on trying to decide between I'm gonna. say I'm gonna say the point about. manifestation. um I think this is super controversial. because anything that. gives centers people on a sense of. personal responsibility is typically not. well received like people don't love the. concept of personal responsibility. obviously there's lots of nuance to this. but I would say that when the way that. society and culture and Instagram have. described the process of manifestation.

is largely [ __ ]. um and I think that manifest like. knowing that like the example always. give is getting in the current sector. Sat Nav is of course important because. if I just drove without Direction I'd be. lost but if I don't drive. I'm also just sat in my garage with a. Sat Nav set all day. um. I don't think you can just manifest your. your yourself your way there in life I. think luck plays a huge role. circumstance plays a huge role where you. live if I was still in Botswana there's.

not going to be a dire of a CEO. interviewing you today right sure maybe. if my if if my mum hadn't met my dad so. there's circumstance there's luck there. is will there is hard work there is. trauma there's conviction and then there. is also a an importance to know the. direction you're going in but I think. manifestation as an idea is oversold. because it makes life easy and. comfortable and it also it obfuscates us. of the responsibility of work and. personal responsibility I think it is I. think it's. absurd to pursue comfort.

absurd and anything you do. I think at some point or another when. your hands are on the wheel in this car. with the sat nav you're gonna have to. [ __ ] drive and if the sat nav goes. out. um. okay man you're still behind the wheel. driving a [ __ ] vehicle you know I I. think. you also have to really strongly believe. in yourself really strongly believe in. yourself because there's a lot of things. that people love gatekeeping [ __ ] it's. crazy everyone loves it especially on.

the internet they love gatekeeping it's. like the first thing you're going to. interact with when you jump into. something new people are gonna go not. that guy. you know what weren't you doing this or. uh don't do don't talk about that don't. do this people love gatekeeping which is. so funny because it the the idea that we. have to be like these incredibly. specialized needle fine like kind of. people is ridiculous you know I I. try everything go into it boldly but you.

gotta believe in your success and you. have to take accountability have you. struggled with that late that idea of. being labeled as something because well. of course you know there's people. listening to this now who are like a. lawyer or they are sure or whatever. right and they want they have this. passion for something else it could be. photography like you but they're a. lawyer they're bio says lawyer their. LinkedIn says lawyer and the resistance. the social resistance but also the. psychological resistance of. now that label is creating keeps them. confined in a way that is not fulfilling.

or conducive with a happier life so. breaking out of those labels when you're. a you know a star from such a young age. you get your label super early yeah Cole. you are an actor and there are many ways. a child star is what I'm called quite. often yeah which. okay but dude I mean look anyone that. doesn't think outside of terms of labels. it's just useless to me I I gotta be. real like anyone that cannot find. a deeper Humanity in whatever.

um whatever kind of person they're. sitting across at a table is probably a. pretty useless person to talk to in my. opinion um I think labels can be. difficult and and also helpful in very. many ways let's say you're a lawyer yeah. man make that money on that on that. label sure make that money on that label. and then surround yourself with the. people that don't see you as this is my. lawyer friend you know. because you don't need that many people. you need a round table of people that.

are going to be like yeah that's coal. cool wow what a Renaissance human that. guy is you know that's what you really. want people to say oh man what a good. person that person is you know that's. great. the label thing can be difficult but. I think it's useless to think like that. I I think anyone that goes wow you know. this. anything outside of human you know is. silly and I know this sounds a bit. woo-woo and pretentious and because it. does be like don't label me ah.

but um I think it's true I I I I don't. think thinking in terms of labeling is. useful in the slightest in the slightest. and I I would like to think at the end. of all of our Lives we we've we've. surrounded ourselves with you know a. rich enough body of experience to go. yeah man I tried blacksmithing for a. period of time yeah dude I crafted a. little necklace well I was a silversmith. for about a year and I tried that [ __ ]. out and it went really well.

um and I think people are going to try. and gatekeep you but I I think what I. mean is that you're always gonna have to. fight against some sort of label. regardless of what it is and if there's. a bouncer at the door gate keeping you. from getting inside the club guarantee. you that there's a [ __ ] side entrance. guarantee you and you got you gotta. fight your way to get there man I I I'm. a firm believer in that and you have. told us to recognize the kind of. um restrictions that are being put on. you but I think you always got to fight.

for yourself if you don't fight for. yourself legitimately no one else is. going to. earlier on you said something to me you. said have I ever you said have I ever. sort of hypothetically played out the. scenario that that person in my life my. mother might not be here and sure. reflecting upon that being the last. conversation I'd had with her how would. I feel I've got two pictures here. what are the words unsaid to this. individual.

that's my father. and that could be my brother or myself I. have no idea what are the words that are. not said to that individual. um. you were at the exact place that you. were supposed to be right when you were. supposed to be there. for sure. my father. was 27. when he had two identical twin. boys. that's big. you know I'm 30. I can't imagine having.

two identical twins I'm sorry to expose. you property immediately got a vasectomy. right after he found out he was having. two twins I just find that hilarious. it's my favorite story about him. um. he was an Italy at the time I'd say man. what is your hair routine it's looking. great. uh he looks like a study this is a sad. photo yeah yeah for sure good job pop. um you're at the exact place you need to. be right when you were supposed to be. there and whatever happens in the. following years are all.

the lessons. that you need to take. for the future of your life. but every step of the way you've been. exactly where you're supposed to be for. sure. the words uncertain to this person. it's funny I was thinking about writing. that in this journal what would you say. to your child itself that's funny. this kid. um. this is me on the left. Dylan on the right.

um. I wouldn't want to condition this kid at. all. I see a kid that's like so present in. this moment and I've had this dilemma. because I have some step siblings and I. find myself wanting to ask them like hey. you've been thinking about college. hey like what are you thinking about in. the future. um. I think I'd probably just talk to this. kid about like hippos or platypus or.

some some fun [ __ ] you know. Pokemon whatever it was. I don't I don't think it's. wise to. put the future or past tense thinking of. an adult onto a child and I think it's. your responsibility as an adult who. loves a child to encourage that Lantern. Consciousness and that presentedness for. as long as you can. and as far as you can and anything that.

takes them away from that presentedness. should be the enemy. of. your life in that child's life isn't. that what happened to you yeah it is. it is and that was the perfect lesson I. needed to know for my eventual children. what about Dylan. my brother and I have made it this far. and have been as okay as we have become. because we did not feel.

lonely. we always had each other as a frame of. reference to grow up and alongside and I. think um I think I'm incredibly. privileged for that and he is too. we thankfully got to go through. everything we went through alongside. each other. and I think that's built him into the. exact kind of person he's supposed to be. and me as well. and I really am living my life now in a. place where I don't look back with. regrets or anger or or pain or anything.

like that so. um I don't know I'd probably kick his. ass honestly if I'm thinking about it. now. I probably I'd probably smile at myself. and then beat the hell out of Dylan. and I'd have reach advantage and stuff. too it'd be great. I'm just throwing by his legs like. Bowser. we have a closing tradition this podcast. with the last guest asks a question for. the next guest the question that's been. left for you. you have one last piece of work to do.

what is that piece of work and why. if I had children. make sure that. they were okay. try and make sure Ensure. that whatever I could do is My Last. Action would create. more easiness for them. um. because life is Gonna Roll Over you. regardless you know regardless of how.

easy you've had it I would try to have. one last thing said or done that helped. them in the future you went straight to. Children yeah and if I was a grandfather. I would take all of my cash. and convert it into some sort of gold. Doubloon. and I would bury that [ __ ]. I'm not telling you where. but I would send them on the greatest. treasure hunt ever I mean really give.

them one one thing that they said God. Grandpa wasn't saying. but what a story he gave us you know. Goonies Style. I want I want to be. I want to be the guy that like sends his. grandkids I'm like oh grandpa Cole was. just insane man but man he was a wacky. guy he found the treasure I wouldn't. make it too hard you know but I'd want. them to go someplace sounds like a great. movies plot yeah maybe maybe they'll. write it who knows grandfather Cole work. is interesting though it's a really.

interesting question because I hope I'm. not working really. I don't like I hope I don't see it as. work okay you didn't see photography is. work no no I don't see acting like the. stuff I feel really passionate about as. as uh as work either have you ever had a. conversation like this one publicly. no. I think it'll be fun. cool thank you yeah a huge honor yeah. and tremendously valuable for for me. more than I could probably tell you but. meeting people like you that have gone. through unique life experiences and are.

able to look back introspectively and. sort of. um historically and depict that in such. a self-aware honest vulnerable way is. the very reason I started doing this and. the very reason I continue to do it um. so I thank you because it's a real I. feel like you've um. I feel like I feel like I owe you. something for being I know this is how I. always feel for for all of the lessons I. know for the rest of my life get to go. on with from your journey and um as a. fan of yours now both your art and your.

photography I guess are the same thing. you're but but just for semantics. um I'm gonna follow I'm gonna continue. to follow you with a renewed perspective. on on your humility your talent and your. Humanity well thank you and by the way. um every conversation like this we trade. just as much for anyone that's. empathetic which you seem to be. um. you trade just as much this is a beauty. you and I were both August 1992 from. very different backgrounds and yet we. can still sit around a round table.

and go man I know the feelings of what. you've gone through even though you and. I are very different people yeah and I. think that's the beauty of it you know. that's the beauty of of. that connection I've been talking about. I think. empathy is the currency of all this. stuff and you've asked some really. wonderful questions and I'm glad that I. was able to answer in a way that that. hopefully brought out something but uh. thank you again thank you for having me. that was really wonderful thank you.

[Music]. it's now been a healed Drinker for about. four years roughly so much so that I. ended up investing in the company. um and I play a role on the board of the. company but they also very kindly. sponsor this podcast and to be honest. I've never said this before but he will. believed in this podcast before anybody. else the CEO Julian. um told me before we even launched the. podcast how successful it would be and. that he'll would back it and I. absolutely have a huge amount of. gratitude for them for that support but. an even greater sense of gratitude for. the fact that they've helped me stay. nutritionally complete throughout the.

chaos and hecticness of my tremendously. busy business schedule so if you haven't. tried out here which I hope most of you. have at least given it a go by now try. it out it's an unbelievable way to try. and stay nutritionally on course if you. have a hectic busy schedule and let me. know what you think send me a tweet and. a DM tag me let me know what you think. quick quote from one of our sponsors I. have to say I've been on a bit of a. journey with this brand because when I. started my business in new territories. when we first moved social chain to the. to New York City the first place we went. to was wework we moved four of our team.

members out to New York City and we. built the business from there. um I have to say there's something. magical about weworks I've spent the. last two or three weeks in LA in a wee. work and as you walk in the front door. every day it's almost like that sense of. community that sense of magic excitement. camaraderie is tangible and you don't. get that when you're working at home you. don't get that often when you're sat in. your bed on your laptop there's. something about getting out and getting. into a wee work that makes me feel a. sense of Entrepreneurship and and.

creativity and building and the way that. we work to design both both in the way. that they offer subscriptions so that. you can work you know on demand but also. the the flexibility of the contracts. means that it's just the perfect place. for businesses to scale their companies. and if you haven't checked out where you. work and you want to you can go to. we.co CEO and there you can get 50 off. at trial Day At wework Close to You. [Music].

thank you. [Music].