Calm App Founder: From $0 To $2 Billion By Making The World Meditate: Michael Acton Smith | E117

Solving the global mental health crisis, it's a first-order problem. One in three. of us will experience depression or. anxiety. And I realized that this could be one of. the biggest opportunities and businesses. in the world. Michael Acton Smith, he's. the billionaire founder of the mindful. meditation and sleep app, Calm. Everyone. thought we were crazy. The bridge. between the seed money we raised and. getting to a series A took years and. years. And then that was where the point. was like, we're taking off. It's. happening. Never have we been assailed.

with more noise and stimulation from. social media to billboards to TV. It's. coming at us constantly. One of the most. valuable skills in the 21st century is. to be able to decide where and how and. when we put our attention. The human. brain is the most complex thing in the. known universe, and yet it doesn't come. with an instruction manual. Quick one, can you do me a favor if. you're listening to this and hit the. subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this.

podcast. Thank you so much. Michael Acton Smith, he's the. billionaire founder of the mindful. meditation and sleep app, Calm. For the. last 10 years, Michael has been one of. the great UK entrepreneurial success. stories. But the really staggering thing. about Michael's story is how many. successes he had that turned quickly. into failures. And honestly, how he rose. time and time and time again from those. ashes to rebuild an even more successful.

business. Most people would give up, and you. almost wouldn't blame them when you hear. what Michael's been through. His most. recent success, Calm app, is worth. billions and billions of dollars. And it. helps people who are going through hard. times or any pain at all reach. mindfulness. It teaches them the. importance of slowing down, stopping, and meditation. So, one would think. Michael had an easy life and he was the. master of his mind. But he goes through the same battles as.

everyone else. And he describes this. last year as the hardest of his entire. life. Michael, thank you for being so. honest on this podcast. Thank you for. your vulnerability because I know this. conversation is going to help everybody. that takes the time to listen to it. So, without further ado, I'm Steven. Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a. CEO. I hope nobody's listening. But if. you are, then please keep this to. yourself.

Michael, you've been described in the. press as this uh this kind of like. entrepreneurial rockstar. character. And when I when I read. through your story, I was surprised and. inspired and blown away by how early. that entrepreneurial bug appeared in. your life. When you look back at your. younger years, are you able to pinpoint what you were. good at, the thing that made you. different from your peers in terms of. skill your skill set or talent? Uh.

I'm not sure. I was. very impressively mediocre at school. Like right right in the middle. Definitely not uh. uh in the top set uh for anything. But I. think I if I had to pin down one. characteristic, it would probably be. curiosity. I was just fascinated by lots. of different things. And my dad was a. librarian. He used to bring books home. for me and my sister all the time on all. sorts of random subjects. And I just. devoured them. And so, I think that kind.

of sparked uh this interest in in. different areas of life. And I think. when you start. when you're curious, um everything. becomes interesting in life. Everyone. you chat to, every magazine you pick up, every country you go to. And uh you. start to kind of connect dots between. different things. And I think that's a. really important part of the. entrepreneurial mindset. That inspires creativity then, right? Because if you're if you've got so many. dots to pick from, you can create new. things, right? Exactly. Yeah, so I.

think, you know, along with curiosity, I. think creativity is uh is part of it as. well. I love. ideas. I love taking the the random. things that are kind of rattling around. my head, putting them onto a sheet of. paper, playing around with them, thinking about them from different. angles, and then. taking the best ones and putting them. out there in the world. And this is the. beauty of being an entrepreneur. You. know, you can talk about stuff. endlessly, but only when you meet the. market do you find out whether there's. any merit to your ideas. And you can see.

whether people actually resonate and use. or buy or talk about whatever it is that. you're creating. I just love that. Sales. Your sister said that uh I had an. a little story she told about you going. to car boot sales and being a really. remarkable seller when you were younger. at car boot sales. What role has was was. that apparent when you were younger that. you were you had a talent for selling. things? I don't know if I I've ever thought of. myself as a good salesperson. I think I. get very animated and energized and and. passionate about things I really really.

believe in, which I think is probably a. a key part of of being good at at. selling things. Um yeah, we used to it. was one of the many many uh uh endeavors. when we were younger going to car boot. sales and selling things and trying to. match them with the the people that were. walking by. So, interesting she said. that. I never knew that. Did Did you fit. Did you fit in? Not really. No, if I'm if I'm honest, I. was a little bit of a um. a square peg in a round hole at at.

school. Um. was quite small for my age. And uh just. didn't quite. it's hard to describe, but didn't quite. click or understand the the cool kids. and and kind of what was going on. I. think maybe that sort of. forced me to kind of retreat into myself. a little bit. I became very passionate. about reading, as I mentioned. Kind of. went down the path more of um uh. sort of social pursuits rather than. going to parties and events. And I was. pretty introverted and and shy uh until.

I got to university. Were you ever. bullied in school? Did you ever. I wouldn't I wouldn't describe it as. bullied, but I I would certainly not. class myself as one of the kind of um. the cool kids, sort of on the on the. periphery looking in rather than in the. center of of everything that was going. on. And then at university that changed. somehow. It did. I kind of, you know, the beauty about university is you can. reinvent yourself. And and you leave all. the kind of. sort of perceptions and and views that. people have of you when when you get.

there. And uh so met some amazing. friends. And I just decided to kind of. lean into everything, joined every club. going, chatted to everyone I could. It. was a big kind of flip. And some of my. best friends now, you know, I met at. university during that period. And on that point of um identity, when. you got to university you could you. could finally start I guess exploring. your who you who you actually were and. you shed that identity from school, shed. a lot of the maybe limiting beliefs.

about. public perceptions of who you were. And. um. at some point that went on to starting. Firebox later in. Firebox. later on, right? 1998? Exactly. Yeah, so um Tom, who I met at. at university and I. uh were always talking about business. ideas. But when we left university, we. both got sensible jobs. You know, we. were in debt uh and needed to um. make some money. And so, my passion at. that time was I wanted to become a.

trader uh in an investment bank. I'd. watch Wall Street and thought it was the. most interesting world ever, you know, snapping the red braces and just kind of. buying and selling and dealing. And I lived in a little town called. Marlow. And I saw in the newspaper that. there was a job ad uh for a leasing. company uh company cars. And it it said. you will be working with investment. banks in London. And I didn't know anyone that worked in. the city. Um I did a geography degree,

so that wasn't I couldn't go in through. the front door to get a job in a bank. So, I thought this could be my route in. So, I got the job and uh just uh worked. as hard as I could, tried to get. noticed, and I got put on the Goldman. Sachs account. And I thought this is. amazing. Uh I traveled up to London 2. days a week and got to work in their. offices in the HR department. And uh. I remember reading um the FT and the. Economist. And and when I'd meet the. traders, I'd like throw in kind of. random tips about things I'd read. Um.

hoping I'd get noticed and invited to to. join the company. Of course, that that. never happened. And what I realized was that this. probably wasn't the the world for me. It. it didn't kind of click. It was great to. kind of try on that uh that uh jacket. for size to see what it was like, but it. it just it didn't kind of speak to my. soul. It just felt uh a bit false. There. was no creativity to it. And so, um. after uh about 6 months or so, uh stepped away from that. And Tom had. left to he was programming breathalyzers.

in Wales. Uh. which was quite an entertaining job. He'd have to drink cans of Stella to. calibrate these breathalyzers he was. working on. They were used by the. police. Um but we both weren't uh we. both weren't clicking with what we had. And yeah, we'd meet up and talk about. business ideas. And the internet was. just starting to kind of really gain. momentum sort of around '97, '98. And uh. it was during one of our chats in the. pub that the light bulb went on and we. we realized uh maybe we should leave and.

set up our own business. So, take me through that journey. So, you you hand in your resignation at some. point or do you start while you're still. at that company? So, it was a little bit. of crossover as there usually is, kind. of thinking about the the idea. But um. once the idea that Tom and I were. chatting about just became so. all-consuming, that was the moment when. we like, right, let's dive into the. unknown, leap out of the airplane, and. figure this out as we are plummet to. earth. And uh Tom was living just.

outside of Cardiff and I remember we. were again walking around town chatting. We went into a bookshop and we saw this. book that was called. doing business on the internet and we. knew we were both aware Tom did AI and. computer science at university. So we. knew something was going on in this in. this world but we clubbed together. We. put 10 pounds in each to buy this book. which was a a lot of money for us. living pretty much hand to mouth and I. just remember reading it and just having. my mind blown by you know what felt like.

what was coming. This was going to. change everything. How we did commerce, how we connected with each other, how we. were entertained and Tom was just. fascinated by this book as well. So that. was kind of that became our Bible to. create what was Hotbox which then became. Firebox the. the gadget the games the sort of online. retailer. And so that was like kind of. like an obscure gift um gadgets. online retailer.

Yes. Yeah, we felt that you know again. this is the early days of the internet. It was predominantly. young youngish people who were on it who. were sort of figuring out how to. connect. It wasn't the easiest thing in. the world. AOL was just kind of getting. going. The search engines weren't fully. developed. It was a lot more men than women on the. internet at this time and we thought. what if we could sell unusual toys and. gadgets and games kind of quirky stuff. and uh it was sort of inspired by the.

Innovations catalog and Sharper Image in. America and so that was the idea and we. would find products that we thought were. quite cool. We would list them online. and then when someone bought them we. would then go and buy the product from. whoever was selling it cuz we didn't. have the cash flow to you know hold. anything in stock and then. send it out to the individual. It. certainly wasn't Amazon next day. delivery. It was pretty clunky. And the payment. systems on the time.

Well this is really interesting cuz you. know around this time when we told. people we were going to set up a. business online we got a few different. reactions. One was that. eye rolling. People would tell us no one. is going to buy anything online. You. know you have to put your credit card in. line and you know who's going to do that. far too risky and dangerous. So that was. the prevailing wisdom. The second. feedback we got was that the only people. making money online are kind of porn. barons. So. but we were like no we think there's a. revolution happening here. We think look.

at all the mail order catalogs. Look at. the money being made. The internet is a. much more efficient way of doing this. And this is long before Shopify long. before stripe. So Tom was the technical. genius. He kind of built a website and. we couldn't figure out how to take. payments online. So what we had to do. was if you wanted to order anything from. our site you had to find the product you. wanted then you had to print out an. order form. Then you had to fill it in with all your. details. Then you had to write down your.

credit card details. Then you had to fax. that to us using JFAX. I would print it. out type all the details in. We had a. PDQ machine from the bank that I would. manually type in and then that would. take the money and then I would put the. product once it arrived in a package and. and send it out. It was incredibly. inefficient and fortunately we only had. about one order a month so it was. we we certainly weren't in danger of. setting any kind of commerce records but. it it just it was it was a very.

interesting period. Many months this. went on and. it just allowed us to kind of sort of. test the systems and figure out what was. going on and day by day just get a. little bit better and we had an amazing. friend called Matt Shown who we also met. at university and he would use secret. names to order from the site to kind of. cheer us up and and let us feel that. there were people out there buying these. products. He only admitted that to us a. a little bit later but that kind of. kept kept our energy and our spirits up.

as kind of we sat there waiting for. orders to come in. What was the heights. of that website? What was the highest. moment? Well amazingly it's it's still. now. a quarter of a century almost it's been. going which is mind-boggling to think an. internet company. I think the the real kind of. tipping point for that business was when. we made our own products. So instead of. selling other people's products. where the margins were just very thin. and you could buy from other places we. developed our own IP and that was a real.

kind of light bulb moment for me. recognizing that to do anything in. business you really got to. create something yourself. You know make. something that hasn't existed before. So during one of our many board meetings. and creative sessions in the pub Tom and. I Tom and I were. watching someone line up tequila shots. across the bar and this turned into a. conversation of um they look like pawns. on a chessboard. You know what if we. could create chess. but make it more interesting. Turn it.

into the drinking person's thinking. game. And. you could have 32 glasses on a board and. you fill them all with alcohol red wine. against white wine or whiskey against. vodka if you're very hardcore. You move. the pieces as normal but every time you. capture a piece you have to drink it. So. you could make a queen sacrifice which. would be like three shots make your. opponent very drunk and hopefully kind. of balance things and we just thought. this was a really unusual idea and we. sent out a press release for it to a. bunch of magazines. We didn't know about.

PR companies. We went into WH Smith one. day and scribbled down all the addresses. and the names of the editors and sent. this out and the reaction was amazing. We suddenly had all these magazines. wanting to hear about this incredible. shot glass chess set and so the other. light bulb moment there was. storytelling. You know do something. different. We created a story about. these two broke ex-students who had made. this game and we were in FHM and Loaded. and Maxim and we made the local Welsh.

newspaper and we even made it to page. three of the Sun which was quite. exciting. Not the the main picture. Unfortunately no. Was it you or was it you or Tom? Definitely. no one wants to see to see us. but yeah a little snippet and suddenly. the orders just started to pour in. It. was it was a real goosebump inducing. moment. And it's so there's two things there. I. want to just touch on the lesson you. said you learned about PR and. storytelling. I'm guessing that's a. lesson that stayed with you till today.

Oh boy. Absolutely. And what are the principles of that. lesson? What is what's the principles of. storytelling for you that you learned. then? Well. everyone is interested in the human. angle. You know if if you look at every. article about a business it almost. always centers on on the human angle. The stories of people using that. products, the lives that have been. transformed. You know storytelling. is such a powerful way of of of. communicating and and connecting with. other people. The the the the struggle,

the resolution, the transformation at. the end. There's a an amazing book by. Will Storr called The Science of. Storytelling which kind of talks about. this in in great great detail and I. think about it with every business I. create every time I'm pitching my. business to investors or trying to. encourage someone to join. So it's a key. piece I think of the the entrepreneurial. journey. And so yeah we realized that you know if. if we could instead of putting out press. releases saying this is our business and. this is how much money it makes and this.

is our margin you talk about the the. human angle and the story and the. struggle and those aspects and it makes. it much more interesting. And at some point you decided to depart. from this business. Yes. Yeah, so. this was many years in. The business was. was going well. We'd built a team. We'd. moved from Wales to London. We went to one of the first first. Tuesday events. I don't know if anyone. listening remembers but we read about.

this in the Guardian this this. networking event where entrepreneurs and. and investors came together to do deals. and yeah we were living in this attic in. Cardiff and we thought oh my goodness we. need to be in London the promised land. where the streets are paved with gold. So literally within a few days we just. piled up a van and drove to London and. went to this event. And the very first. one we went to we met an investor who. met with him and the team and and they. invested in the business and and we were. just like blown away.

So yes Firebox grew for many years got. got much much bigger but after a while I. decided I I wanted to try something new. You know the entrepreneurial brain had. been whirring away. There was a a new. concept I was incredibly excited about. and I had some very honest and important. chats with Tom. And. I I stepped away and created. which was the next big adventure I was. about to embark on.

What why why did you step away though? So you're you're saying there that you. kind of ran out of love or excitement. for the business ultimately. Were you. were you at this point personally. financially free. and stable or No. No, quite a a long way. from it. You know we'd been building the. business. We hadn't sold any shares. We. hadn't taken any money out of the. business. We were paying ourselves a. very modest salary and it was a it was a. a challenging business to run. So we. certainly we were we were stable. We.

were profitable cuz we kind of had to be. but it certainly wasn't throwing off a. lot of cash but I just felt that I was I. there was a new idea that I just. couldn't stop thinking about that was. waking me up every single night at 4:00. a.m. And I just felt I had to answer. that call and I certainly didn't want to. leave Firebox or Tom or the team in the. lurch. So again we had some very. important conversations, as I mentioned, but. uh. yeah, I felt I had to go and do. something new. And the internet had. evolved quite a bit since the first, you.

know, the web one era. Web two was just. gathering pace. You know, it was not. just the read web, it was the read write. web. People were creating, crowdsourcing, and it just felt like I I. had to yeah, I had to answer this call. That's really interesting you describe. it as a call. I was I was trying to. think about a way to um. give advice to entrepreneurs that have. lots of ideas, as all entrepreneurs and. creatives do, um how to filter out the. ones worth pursuing. And I was I was. saying one of the things I think I've. done over the years in hindsight is. there's almost this someday shelf in my.

mind where like new ideas come, I put. them on the someday shelf, and if they. like nag me. and if they stay at the front of the. shelf and they're like, "Steve, you. know, then I'll pursue them." But if. they kind of fade off into the. background and collect dust and vanish, yeah, then I don't pursue them. It. sounds like you're talking about a. similar mental system where if it nags. you long enough you pursue. Very very. very true. And I think this is a really. important point. There's a lot of. entrepreneurs, many listening to to this. podcast, who probably have uh a great idea. Maybe.

they've started, maybe they're still. thinking about it. And what I think is. fascinating about this current moment in. time is it's very easy to start a. business. You know, there are so many. tools out there to use and build upon to. get going on day one. There's a lot of investment uh chasing. great deals. And I think that's a. positive thing and a negative thing. And I see this. There are too many. people that just launch before they. fully bake their idea. They haven't. built the foundation of the skyscraper. they want to build. And so, they raise. the money, they build the team, but.

they're being blown around like a a. paper bag uh as soon as they get new. information. And that's a scary place to. be, spinning around once you've got a. team, once the clock is ticking, once. the investors are on board. What I would. strongly urge, and I've done this with. every business I've set set up, is go. slow to go fast. Do the work up front. Spend months, sometimes years, researching what it is that you're. intrigued about. Marinate yourself in. this idea. You know, go to the. the business conferences, read every. book you can, the documentary, speak to.

people in the space. And a really. interesting thing starts to happen. You start connecting these dots. This. invisible work that no one else may be. aware of is you. finding the the magic, finding the. secret to this industry, discovering. where the the opportunity is, where the. alpha is. And once you've done that, you. get to a point, as you say, whether it's. the front of the shelf or whether it's. for me it's the idea that just wakes me. up every single night. That's at the. point where you're like, "Right, let's. go. This is it." It you can't hold it.

back any longer. And you have those. strong foundations to then build upon. going forward. And to communicate to the world exactly. what you're Exactly. It's then a very. crisp, very clear idea. Now, that the. key here is it can change over time, but. um you start from very strong. foundations. And and then uh you you. have that conviction. And that is very. magnetic for other people to to be. around, the first wave of employees, the. investors that you bring on board, the. journalists that you chat to. So, yeah,

that's my my philosophy, not rushing. into new ideas, taking taking time to. let them fully fully get ready before. before you move. The problem entrepreneurs have in their. mind, I think, and I'm thinking people. listening to that, why don't they heed. that really great sound advice, is cuz. they always think that there is a real. urgency to the challenge they're trying. to solve. And they see it as they're. they're in a 100 m sprint. Yeah. And. they need to go now and go fast, which. means raise tons of capital and start. sprinting. Yeah. And it always feels, no.

matter what industry um people are. launching their businesses in, whether. it's like someone launching cupcakes on. Instagram in the pandemic cuz sourdough. exploded, they think it's now or never. What would you say to that? Yeah, it's a. really good point. It It feels like that. if what you're doing is surface level. If what you're responding to is. just other companies you're seeing doing. well or an article you read last week uh. and you haven't done that deep work, it.

does feel like urgent and you have to. run cuz the the race the starting gun. has already gone. If you do the deep. work, you recognize that you can go a little. bit slower because the market hasn't. fully formed yet. It's almost one great. analogy I think is surfing. Um when. you're waiting for that wave, you don't. want to be too late, obviously, cuz. everyone's caught the wave and away they. go. And you don't want to be way way too. early uh while you're paddling there, you know, in the freezing cold waiting. for the sun to come up cuz you'll freeze.

to death. You need to be a little bit. early um. where you feel a little bit of the cold, and then suddenly the sun comes up and. you see that big wave coming and you're. ready for it and you catch it and woo, you go. And there's nothing quite like. that, being one of the first players. riding a wave in a in a new market. And. it felt like that for for Calm and, you. know, meditation and mindfulness. Alex and I were out there paddling in. the freezing cold waters waiting for. that wave for years. And everyone. thought we were a little bit crazy. Um. but we weren't laying the foundations.

We were doing the the deep work and the. research. And then uh we were ready when. that wave hit. Quick one. At this time of year we. always see a huge spike in the amount of. people that are buying Huel and joining. the Hueligan camp, I guess. Um and I think that speaks to the role. that Huel plays in my life, but also the. role it plays to a lot of people's. lives, which is as we start to get a. little bit busier, typically we fall. into the trap of going for convenience. food. And convenience food for a lot of. us means like junk food or lots of. sugary stuff. Whereas Huel kind of. safeguards us in that part of our lives.

It's completely nutritionally complete, as you'll know from listening to this. podcast, and I say it every single time. I've had more tags on Instagram of. people joining Huel in the last, I'd. say, couple of weeks of January than I. have in the whole last quarter of the. year. So, if there was a time where you. were thinking about giving it a shot, here's my recommendation. Try the salted. caramel flavor. That's my personal. favorite. We all have different. preferences. The banana flavor I. absolutely adore. I love the cinnamon. swirl flavor. And also the protein. powder, the salted caramel flavor again, that sits on top of my fridge over.

there, is um incredibly useful if you. are working out and you're trying to get. high levels of protein into your body. Give it a go. Tag me on Instagram. Let. me know what you think. And come and become a Hueligan with me. So, after Firebox, you you you went on. to Mind Candy. Yes. Mind Candy. Yeah. And Perplex City. Perplex City, indeed. That's. Oh, wow. All right, this is going back. back a a fair old way. The reason why I. stepped away from from Firebox, and the. idea that I couldn't stop thinking.

about, was around games. I've always. loved games, you know, I mentioned. chess. I love Scrabble and backgammon, video games like Dungeons and Dragons, created all my own games. But I saw something really interesting. happening just after the the the new. millennium. And it was could the internet revolution. lies how we play games? Instead of games. being, you know, uh just you and your. mate playing on a Nintendo or. or whatever, could games be. for three or four people or 10 people or. hundreds? What if games could be played.

by millions of people? You know, the the. massively multiplayer online gaming boom. that that was just getting going there. with World of Warcraft and some of the. ones coming out of the Far East. So, that was what I I couldn't stop thinking. about. And so, Perplex City was this. idea, what if we could create a game. that didn't just live online, it lived. offline as well, that it would it would. be all around you. It would be you would. be a hero in sort of part game, part. story, part movie. Um I'd watched uh the. interesting theme here, watched a movie.

that I couldn't stop thinking about. called The Game with Michael Douglas, this person doesn't know whether it's. real life or a game that they're part. of. And I I just wanted to to bring that. to the the world. So, that was the. starting point of Perplex City. Um we. raised some money, we buried a treasure. somewhere in the world that was worth uh. a 100,000 lb reward for the first person. that found it. It. It was found a couple of years later um. by the very passionate audience and. community that was playing this game.

But we released clues uh we hid clues in. classified sections of newspapers, we. had skywriting, uh we um. uh you'd get messages on your phone. Uh. it was that we had helicopters at live. events. I mean, it was just this. extraordinary experience, very very. expensive to do. And it was called an alternate game. Uh. and so, basically, that was uh Perplex City. And. it was probably one of the most creative. things I've ever worked on. We had a an.

incredible team and a very passionate. audience playing it. Unfortunately, it. was one of the most commercially. disastrous. things I've worked on. And my goodness, I I learned some really valuable lessons. building that. So, I read that it cost $9 million? About $9 million. Yeah, we raised um. roughly $10 million. And we'd burnt. through almost all of it, uh about $9. million. And uh I was going back to. waking up in the middle of the night. This time was I was waking up in the. middle of the night in a cold sweat.

thinking, "This is not working. This is. not right." And the problem was. the outside world was saying, "What a. brilliant idea this was." We were. winning awards, we were in the press all. the time. It looked like we were. geniuses, but in reality, deep in my. kind of pit of my stomach, I was like, "Oh my goodness, we are heading. towards a cliff very very fast, and uh I. need to do something urgently." Because. you hadn't figured out the the. underlying business model? Correct. So, we had a model. So, you. would buy these trading cards, a bit.

like Pokémon cards, you'd get a random. collection of six in a pack for a few. pounds. And. these puzzles then played into a a. larger puzzle. There were 256 of them to. collect. There were all sorts of hidden. clues within them. And. we sold a fair few, we made a a bit of. money, but it was nowhere near enough to. cover the costs of this very expensive. game we were running. So, the just the. the the economics and the business. business model didn't make sense. And so, yeah, as I say, we were running. out of money fast. I didn't think we'd.

be able to raise another round, and I. was just very stressed, extremely. worried about what to what to do. When. when you say so, two points I want to. pick up on that. When you say I was. extremely stressed, give me a a clear. picture of what that means in real terms. on a day-to-day basis. So, just. sitting there. I I still can remember sitting at the. office in Battersea, just looking at the. the team kind of working away, um. everyone happy and smiling, and me. staring at my screen knowing where our.

bank balance was and how fast we were. burning money, and thinking that in a. couple of months. this whole thing is going to be have to. shut down. We'll be declared bankrupt. I. may never be allowed to be a director. again. You know, it was quite. terrifying. And not almost paralyzed and frozen with. fear, not knowing what to do next. Like, how do I solve this? Who do I speak to. about it? Um I was a sole founder in. that business, so it was kind of tricky. I had an amazing COO uh {slash} CFO. {slash} every C everything O, Divinia.

Knowles, who worked closely with me. But, um yeah, I I just didn't really. know how to solve this conundrum we were. in. And it manifested in. high blood pressure, sleepless nights, uh not eating well, um just yeah, all. the classic signs of um stress and and. burnout. Was there a day where you had. to make that tough decision to wind the. company down and to bring it to an end? And how was that? What was that moment. like? There was, and I I kept putting it.

off. Uh you know, that was a horrible. thing to do, but one morning, I um. invited the whole team, there was about. 25 of us, into our conference room, sat. everyone down. I was shaking like a. leaf. Um and uh you know, these people had. believed me. They they followed me to. this company, this big vision that I. painted for them all. And I basically just had to say, this is. not working. We're running out of cash. We're going to have to stop and and kill. this game. And it was partway through. the second season, and there were just.

gasps of shock and horror. Uh. and um. I had been thinking of a new idea. So, it was very different to the current. idea, and so this was what I thought was. the best thing we should do. We had, as I say, less than a million. dollars left. We had two options. We can. continue down the path we're on. and hit the brick wall and just end, or we can pivot, do this dramatic pivot. to this new idea with the cash we've got.

left, and and see if we can save the. company. And. we were going from this very complex, fascinating um game, Perplex City, to a. kids game. And I tried to explain it to people, and. they they. people shaking their heads and. scratching their heads and not knowing. what I was talking about. Amazingly, a couple of people got it and. uh wanted to stay on. Uh we had to let. many people go. Many self-selected out. Um it was also quite a stressful board.

meeting uh telling my board that we were. going to do this almighty pivot. And to. be fair, and to give my board credit. back then, they were like, fair enough, Michael. You know, we we we. let's do it. You know, there there isn't. really another option. This I described. it as a a final roll of the dice. And. they all got on board, and so, yeah, we. kind of. uh took a very different new direction, and we had some cards, some some of the. puzzles in Perplex City. Um we created these little characters.

called Puzzle Monsters, and the story of. Perplex City was one of the many stories. was that um uh it was this world of. mystery and puzzles. Parents would tell. their kids if they didn't do their. homework and their puzzles, the Puzzle. Monsters would get them in the middle of. the night. It's quite quite serious. thinking about it now. Terrifying kids, giving them nightmares. But, I just love this concept, and and. so we were going to create this new. idea, this spin-off called Puzzle. Monsters for kids, stealth education, help them learn, play games while being.

educated. And so, that then uh we. changed the name to Moshi Monsters. because it just sounded a bit more cool. and alliterative. So, that was the seed. uh. of of Moshi. As you look back on Perplex City and. that journey, that strikes me as your first real. probably significant business fail. failing to to some degree where you you. have people's jobs and careers on the. line, and you have capital a high big. amount of capital on the line. What are. the top-line lessons where you reflect.

in your when you're on your own and you. think, I'll never do that again. I'll. never do that thing again, and this is. the key lesson that I'm going to keep. with me for the rest of my life. I think not getting. sucked into and believing the hype. is wonderful to be written about in in. the press. Uh it's wonderful to win. awards, but you know, that is not what a. bit successful business is built on. It. can help. It can give you a little bit. of momentum, but you've really got to um understand. the the fundamentals, and you've really.

got to understand the business model and. the economics. There's no point creating. something extraordinary if you don't. know how it's going to uh monetize and. and how you're going to create something. and sell it for more than you create it. for. So, you don't need to be profitable. from day one. You can build an audience, absolutely, but you do need to know how. at some point this is going to uh become. a successful business. And this is why I. think successful businesses are so rare. because you do need founders that are. that are creative and they can see the. future and where the puck is going, but.

also have strong commercial instincts. and sense and, you know, understand. margins and and how to kind of build the. economic machine behind their crazy. idea. Such a good point, and I think I wish. someone had said that to me when I. started my first business with Park when. I dropped out because I think I thought. people clapping and me being on. Newsnight and like being in the press as. this 18-year-old entrepreneur was. validation of my business. So, I So, I. got more romantic about my failing. hypothesis, whereas really.

the clapping and the press is validation. of an interesting story. There you go. Very well said. model, you know what I mean? So. How did that turn out? Failed. There we go. We both we both got the. scars. I mean, my body is littered with. scars of of failures, but the great. thing about business is you only need to. get it right once to to create a huge. success. Um I I was well aware of Moshi. Monsters for a variety of different. reasons. Um tell me about the the the. growth and trajectory at the start of.

that. I heard it was very slow for the. first sort of 2 years, 18 months. It. was. Yeah, you know, everyone thinks. businesses that are successful just. happen overnight. They don't. There's a. there's a. a lot of grind and and hustle getting to. that point. Um but, you know, the idea. felt very strong. It's uh the the idea. of creating these little monsters that. would live online that kids could adopt. and look after. And um I didn't know. much about the kids entertainment space, but I'd seen Tamagotchi a few years. before, and I thought, wow, what a.

business. Tens of millions of those. little beeping. characters were sold. And I thought, there's something here. Could we take. that concept? And before that, there'd. been the Pet Rock, which I don't know if. you ever came across that. Yes, and. Neopets. Neopets was another great great. business. I think there's something. kids, in fact, most of us love nurturing. and and looking after things. And so, I. thought in the era of Flash and uh the. the web, could we create these little. monsters? And. so, that was the idea. We didn't really.

know how we were going to monetize it, and um we decided uh to. create these little phone charms that we. would sell in shops, and you bought a. phone charm for about 10 pounds, and. then inside would be a code that you. type into our website to adopt your. monster. Disastrous idea. I think we've still got. thousands of these phone charms sitting. in a warehouse somewhere. And it was just too much friction. It. was just too. too many steps, too complicated. Um and. so, after about a year of trying to make.

that work, we decided, you know what? Let's just make it free. Forget the. physical product. Forget trying to. monetize it at the start. Any child. could come along and just adopt a. monster, give it a name, start kind of. um tickling it and feeding it and uh. customizing its room. And instantly, it. was just like, wow, that was the the. trigger point. Took away all the. friction, and we were away. So, suddenly, we went from one or two. sign-ups a day to dozens of sign-ups a.

day, then hundreds of sign-ups a day, then. thousands. Um I think, you know, our. peak days were over 100,000 um. children around the world were adopting. a monster. It was it was it was. breathtaking. So, the business rose, right? And then obviously there was a. it it struggled. Yeah. the world changed. That's an. understatement. It struggled. Okay. Tell. me about that. Well, we thought we could do no wrong. We were now just the usual curve of slow.

growth and then rocket ship. And we. thought. uh we were going to be the next Disney. And uh we had off opportunities to sell. the business for hundreds of millions of. dollars, and I was like, no, thank you. You know, we are taking this all the way. to the moon. Uh and everything was just. compounding. Almost everything we did. seemed to just get bigger and bigger. until it suddenly didn't. And the summer of 2012 was when things. just suddenly stopped. And I was like, what on earth is going on? Sure, this is.

probably just an aberration. And we. thought, oh, it's cuz it's a hot summer. or because of X Y Z. You know, you kind. of make excuses. But, what what had happened was that. there was a a shift, a platform shift. taking place and kids were moving from. using the web as their primary place of. kind of playing games. Yeah, desktop web playing Moshi or Club. Penguin or Stardoll or Neopets all these. other games to. iPads and the mobile revolution. And we.

kind of had our head in the sand for a. little bit and thought, you know, this. this isn't really going to take off in a. in a huge way. And then we started to. lean into it and figure out how we could. adapt Moshi for this new world. But it was very very difficult and. the just the the economics and the way. kids would play with devices and and it. was much harder to create a monthly. subscription service. It just started to. to unravel and as fast as we'd grown the. revenue started to to come down and kids.

were playing all these new free games. through the App Store and we. uh yeah, spent several years trying to. kind of right the ship and keep things. going, but weren't weren't able to. sadly. So, that was a an incredibly. stressful period as well. Another stressful period. Another. there's been quite a few. It's why I've. got so many gray hairs, but again, learned to learned a lot during that. period, but that was a that was a tough. time. Tough time as in letting people. go, having to scale down the business,

trying to find new product market fit. and. Yeah. On a personal level, what was cuz. I mean, that is an even higher high to. to come down from, right? In terms of. your identity is in like intrinsically. connected to this company and. I've been there where. when your company falls, it's like your. self self-esteem is falling with it or. your self-worth or your, you know, your. identity is falling with it because. you're intrinsically connected. Tell. tell me about that. So true. Yeah, that. that was exactly it, you know, when.

when things are going well, you. it's a great thing. You feel wonderful. and. the the tricky thing was that um. it was the flip that I think was so uh. stressful. The flip from being I was. sort of one of the the poster boys of. the the boom. Yeah, in short it I was on. the front cover of. um Wired magazine. Uh the press were. just writing about us and me in glowing. terms all the time. I just thought I could do no wrong. And. again, the ego just got got out of.

control. And then to have that flip, to. suddenly be running a business that was. falling apart. We did five rounds of. layoffs. Uh so difficult for again, the team that. had followed me and joined this business. having to to to be let go. Revenue. started collapsing, board meetings. became very stressful, press started. writing negative articles. It was really. really really tough. And as you say, you. know, like like you mentioned, my ego, my worth, myself was just so intertwined. with my business. And now the business.

was failing, I was a failure and and. worthless. And so it was a a really. really difficult time and that lasted. for years. How did you cope with that? Um. I'm lucky in that I have a. a very supportive family and I have some. great friends who are also entrepreneurs. and we've kind of all. we've all had successes and and failures. and at one point some of us are doing. well and some are not. So, we kind of. pick each other up and and give each.

other important pep talks. So, I think. having that community was very very. helpful. But, you know, I I wasn't. when you're struggling like that, again, you you create these vicious circles. So, you don't sleep very well and you. wake up the next day just more tired. than you were when you went to bed and. you're irritable and your body is filled. with cortisol and adrenaline and. you don't eat well and put nutritious. food in your body and you forget to. exercise. So, yeah, all these negative.

things start compounding. I was in a. pretty. bad state. But to put things in perspective again, I I did try and kind of be realistic. There there were people in the world. going through much trickier things than. their business falling apart. But when. it's you and it you built your whole. self-worth around it, it feels like. everything is falling apart and the. world is ending. There's two questions I wanted to ask. you, which was about when you were going. through those stressful moments and at a. time when men in particular didn't. really understand the concept of mental. health, did you find yourself turning to.

escapes or medicate like medicating. yourself with some kind of escape? And. the secondary question was about the. topic of mental health broadly, when did. you discover that it was a thing? So, wow, yeah. I am. I think when we are struggling in life, we instead of addressing the issue, we mask it, don't we? We we seek things. that avoid whatever the challenge is. And for some people it's drugs, for some. people it's alcohol. For me, I just I.

became distant from the business. I I. just couldn't face going into the office. every day. I take myself off to. coffee shops, I suppose. Caffeine is is. not a serious kind of drug as some some. other ones, but. um I also used to take um. uh painkillers every morning just cuz I. woke up with such a headache and my body. ached. I felt like I was hit by a truck. every morning. So, these painkillers. would kind of help me get started in the. day. It was a very tricky time. So, not.

addressing the fundamental issues with. the business or trying to, but not doing. a very good job. For me, this is what led to Calm because. I could see it so clearly having been. through it. You know, one of the best. businesses to ever set up is one where. you're scratching your own itch and you. understood. And I didn't know what. meditation was or or mindfulness, but my. very dear friend Alex Chew had been. meditating with CD-ROMs he bought when. he was a teenager, a very unusual. teenager. And he would often say to me,

"Look, dude, you need to to try. meditation." And I'd be like, "You need. to try effing off.". That's the last thing I need. Look, um. give me something practical. But slowly. but surely the the penny started to to. drop and I kind of got it and the key. breakthrough for me was when I did. something I'd never done before. I took. myself off on a solo holiday. I went away to the Austrian Alps to this. kind of um resort. where I played tennis in the morning, I.

scribbled in my notebook, I read books. and I I started to try. to meditate cuz I'd I'd heard about it. and it was just incredible. The fog. started to clear. I'd been had my face. pushed up against the the cliff and. couldn't see a way out of this problem. that I was facing with my business and. just taking a step back and getting. perspective was hugely valuable. And I. read a bunch of books. and research papers and and I realized. that, you know, this is science. Mindfulness is a way of rewiring the.

human brain. What if we could make this simple and. relatable and accessible to everyone? This could be one of the biggest. opportunities and businesses in the. world. And I came back. I remember. chatting to Alex about it and he's like, "Right, dude, you finally get it. Let's. go.". Cuz he'd been he kind of knew this and. this was all around the the time where. we'd been talking about. creating a new business. He found. a person that owned calm.com, the. domain. And I remember we were playing. video games in our house in Soho and he.

said, "This domain calm.com is. available." And I said, "Oh my god, what. a great domain. What a business we could. build there helping the world become. more calm.". And I said, "How much is the domain?". And then he said, "Um it's about a. million pounds." And I said, "Right.". Uh yeah, we don't have money to to buy. that, but about a year later, we're. playing video games again, a consistent theme here. And he said the guy that has calm.com. wants to to sell it and he's willing to. to do a deal. We were.

able to buy it for much much less. I. earmarked this money to put a deposit. down on a house, um but thought buying. calm.com might be more sensible thing to. do even though my parents and thought it. was the silliest idea. Uh but um yeah, so we bought calm.com and that was that. was kind of the starting acorn that was. planted for for that paths kind of. crossed. So, I had left my company, all. packed when I described there. Um and. this was in the transition of me. starting Social Chain. So, I knew I had. this thesis about social media. I moved.

out to San Francisco to work at a place. called Monkey Inferno and I was helping. them with growth using social media. I. still had like millions and millions of. followers online, maybe 10, 20, 30. million followers across multiple. Facebook, Instagram, like Twitter pages, whatever. And I was helping them scale. their products using social media. And. as I landed, um Sean, who is the CEO there, said to. me, "Oh, kid just left called Alex.". He said, "He's gone to do this. meditation app." And I swear to god, I. thought, "What a [ __ ] hippie." I.

thought like, what. I thought, "What a what a weird guy. He. left here to go do med" cuz at the time. it's different now. At the time, meditation was like. hippie hocus pocus nonsense. Yeah. I. remember thinking it. I don't know how I. feel now. Do you know what? You weren't you. weren't the only person that thought. that. People would back away from us at. parties when we said we were building a. meditation company. And uh it was um and. I remember other people like thinking. I'd had a a nervous breakdown cuz of my.

previous business and now I was setting. up a meditation company that they oh, good good luck with your nonprofit, mate. With all the healing and like wearing It. had such negative connotations for. something that is so valuable and. transformational. It's extraordinary. As. an entrepreneur, you look for those. moments. And we both felt society was. going to shift. We didn't think it would. take as long as it did, but we felt. there was change coming. The actual. story um about how I felt when Sean told. me that and then watching what that. company became, this multi-billion.

dollar just business that everybody. knows that I everyone that I I speaks. to, has taught me a very profound lesson. about life, which is when you play at. that kind of like intersection of. disbelief. and belief where you're like again I the. analogy I use is the wave coming into. shore like you guys were really early. with the surfboard and you were betting. on that wave coming into shore and every. when so now I look for I want to play in. spaces where there's high levels of. skepticism. but I feel like it's inevitable. And I.

always think about that when I always. think about calm because I was a skeptic. the wave came in and I was like wildly. wrong. And I just wish I'd left with Alex. I think you've done quite all right. There's multiple multiple routes to huge. success but that's so interesting you. said that yeah it I'm thinking back now. to again that time when it was so. non-obvious. I remember the. number of meetings we had with investors. where they were like well this is so. niche you can get meditation for free on.

YouTube and and if no one is going to. pay for this and mental health is. something that isn't talked about mental. health has stigma around it. How on. earth you're going to build a business. and get people to talk about their. mental health and we're like no the. world is changing this is important. What is more important than our minds? Look at all the people suffering all the. clinical depression the anxiety the PTSD. surely at some point we're going to wake. up to this and the the penny will flip. and the light bulb will go on in. society. Again it took years but.

eventually it happened and now thank. goodness we get it. You know if people. often say that there's a an often quoted. stat that one in four people will suffer. from mental health issues in their life. It's not one in four it's one in one. Anyone who has a mind. has mental health and some days it's. great and some days it's not. Anyone who. has a body has physical health and some. days you can run up a mountain and other. days you can't get out of bed and.

we have to understand this and we have. to respect and learn about our minds. because there is nothing more important. Solving the global mental health crisis. which is the mission of calm I think is. one of the most important challenges in. the world. It's a first order problem. because if we can end all this. unnecessary suffering if people become. masters of of their mind. instead of controlled by their minds. everything starts to change. You know we.

can start to tackle. the climate change and inequality and. racism and homelessness and all these. other problems that stem from people. having healthy minds with greater. resilience and empathy and compassion. and gratitude. So. it's it I get very passionate about this. as Alex and the team do but we think. it's a very important mission that we're. working on. I agree. Thank you. think of a more important one other than. maybe climate change but you know. survival and happiness seem like the two.

fundamentals. I mean happiness is maybe. not the right word but. survival and um. enjoying life. So like making sure we. have life and then enjoying the life we. do have feels like that must be the the. two sort of foundational challenges and. opportunities of our time. Exactly. Helping people not just survive but to. thrive in life and and why not? And the human brain is the most complex. thing in the known universe. You know 90. billion neurons trillions of connections.

between them. and yet it doesn't come with an. instruction manual. We're not taught this in schools or we. certainly weren't when we were growing. up. It's starting to change thank. goodness but we're just. left to to get on with life and no. wonder there's so much suffering and and. unhappiness and and mental health issues. and. it doesn't need to be that way and I. think. meditation and mindfulness is it's. almost like a way of upgrading your OS.

your your mind. It enables you to. to see and the world differently and and. to think differently. And it's not a. silver bullet but it's. it's a an important starting point to. then build upon. It's a. great way to upgrade your operating. system you said. So how does that work. from a neuroscience perspective? How is. it upgrading my OS? What's what's. happening? Well so this is this can get quite. complex but at a sort of basic. level. the amygdala it would.

the amygdala is the the oldest part of. brain and most people operate from there. and in very very simple terms what. building a meditation practice and. becoming more mindful does is it changes. our. our reliance from the amygdala to more. prefrontal cortex thinking where we're. able to to plan a little bit more to. think into the future to put things into. perspective. One way of thinking about it and a real.

kind of key moment for me. as I developed my meditation practice. was I now. respond to situations in life instead of. reacting. And that seems like what is he talking. about but when you stop and think about. it is we have so much stimulation in. life so many things happen and most of. us react. You know your first thought. someone cuts you up in traffic you honk. your horn. Your partner says something. slightly passive-aggressive you snap. straight back at them into a big. argument.

What if. there was a slight pause a fraction of a. second where. you held and you thought and you kicked. in. you your awareness enabled you to. respond to that stimulation rather than. reacting. Another is you know a good analogy is. going to the gym. We talked about the. physical and and the mental and our. minds and our bodies are very. interconnected. But we go to the gym and we lift weights. and that that resistance builds up the. the muscle that the strength.

in our body. Meditation is like going to the mental. gym. It's a way of building up the the. strength of your mind. It enables in. in everyday life to be more aware to. improve our attention and my goodness we. need that muscle of attention in this. modern age because never have we been. assailed. with more noise and stimulation from. social media to billboards to TV. It's. coming at us constantly and one of the.

most valuable skills in the 21st century. is to be able to decide where and how. and when. we put our attention. That is a dying art. It is. Are you. optimistic about our ability to correct. course? This is a. this is a big question. I am optimistic. I'm I'm very very glass half full person. and I do. despite the many many challenges we see. in the world it feels like the world is.

in inflamed and in crisis if we listen. to the news and we look at traditional. media. I think the world is actually. getting better in many many different. ways. You know there's a wonderful book. factfulness which talks about the data. of how the world is getting better. As I. say it doesn't always seem it. So I am. optimistic and I'm optimistic also. because. we're seeing this incredible shift in. society where people are taking more. care of their minds that it is okay to. be vulnerable and to talk about your. mental health to your partner to your.

friends to your boss. Can you believe. that? A few years ago the idea of asking. your boss for a a mental health day off. or saying. it would be crazy you'd probably got. fired and now. not all companies but but most companies. are starting to recognize how important. that is and I think that is fantastic. for society. The trajectory of calm has been just. phenomenal. Um was there a tipping point as such? Was there a moment where you thought oh. my god this is actually going to work?

And also conversely was there a moment. where you thought. no. So when we were out there on our. surfboards and it was freezing cold and. everyone thought we were mad waiting for. that wave to come. Yeah we did feel as if this this wasn't. working. Alex and I had some very kind. of difficult stressful conversations. wondering how many more years we need to. wait but. um and we couldn't we found it very. difficult to raise money. We were able. to get some seed money in the early days. but the bridge between the seed money we. raised and getting to a series A took.

years and years and we had no choice to. make the business profitable. We had to. have an incredibly lean team. There was. only about six or seven of us for for a. long time. and we were running out of money and I. remember I think this is around. sort of 2015 we had to get very creative. with how we kept the lights on in the. business and I gave a talk. and there was a lady in the audience. Vinisha from Penguin and she emailed me. afterwards and said.

your story is fascinating could we make. a book about calm? I was like um. well it's not really core it's not. key focus at the moment but okay could. we talk about an advance? And literally our cash amounts were were. dwindling and she said sure and the. money that came in from that offer. kept the business going. So a very. unusual way to. to keep the lights on at a startup. So. we're very grateful to to Vinisha and. the Penguin team and then we had a. subscription business model. So.

we put the price up from $10 a year to. $40 a year which was a key tipping point. because we didn't see any drop off in. sign-ups which was just amazing. So we. started to make more money we realized. this service that we were offering these. meditations were valuable for for. people. They they were really getting. something out of it. And then that was. where the point was like hang on a. minute. we're taking off it's going it's. happening. That was then you shift from. kind of. the ice cold winter to just holding on.

to the rocket for dear life. Trying to. stay on the surfboard. Exactly. Yeah, mixing metaphors there, but yeah, the. rocket ship surfboard was was away. Yeah, okay. And then that it presents a. whole another set of challenges. You've. got to hire people, you've got to. raise more money, scale up. How is that. for you? We were we were underway there and um. again, the business was starting to It. was a an extraordinary place to be cuz. we were bringing in a lot of um. downloads and we were generating a lot. of revenue. I think we got to about 8.

million downloads before spending any. money on marketing. And this is an. important lesson that I that I always. say to to entrepreneurs, don't pour gasoline on the fire until. the fire is is going. You know, the. gasoline is is the marketing. Get to. product market fit first. Kind of. don't don't turn on those afterburners. until you really understand your. business. And we did. We knew we had. something. It was away. We were really. really roaring and so a lady joined us. called Dun uh who's just brilliant at.

user acquisition and she understood. Facebook marketing inside out and that. was the kind of the next sort of uh. piece of the puzzle that really started. to to take the business to the next. level. And when I look to the app store, you. now have the word sleep in the title as. well. of Calm. So started with predominantly. meditation and now you've kind of. branched out into sleep and I'm sure. that's just another step in many steps. So sleep, why why is sleep important? Where does that fit? Yeah, well, we'd. seen something interesting in the data.

about 11:00 every night all around the. world. We saw this big spike in usage. and we realized that people were. listening to Tamara's voice to help them. fall asleep. And we were like, "What? Don't do that. That's not what. That's not how you meditate." And uh we. were like, "Well, hang on, maybe there's. something here." And so that led to. sleep stories. We took this age-old. uh thing of a bedtime story, which we. all love,

um and we kind of modernized it and we. created a sleep story and it's a mix of. a a beautiful soothing voice with sound. effects, with music and it starts in a. really sort of interesting engaging way. and then gradually becomes more. soporific. So instead of your. traditional three-arc. uh structure of a a story, we call it a. story slope. Um Chris, who runs our. sleep stories, kind of has pioneered. this. And so before you know it, you're. listening, your your brain is engaged. instead of wondering about your to-do.

list or what someone said to you at work. that day, you're engaged in the story. and then before you know it, we've taken. you into a a state where you're half. awake, half asleep, that liminal mode, and then you're fast asleep. And very. few people get to hear the end of the. story. And this was just huge. Hundreds. of millions of them have been listened. to. We've had massive amounts of press. Lots of celebrities have reached out to. us wanting to read them. And uh. uh the final thing I'll say on this is. the great thing about sleep is what a. market. 7.8 billion people go to sleep.

every single night of their life. Or. try. Or try, exactly. Um so if you can. create something new, if you can create. a new habit around bedtime, if you can. make. your evening routine a little more. interesting and entertaining um and help. solve a problem, oh my goodness, you can. build something huge. And that's what. sleep stories has been for Calm. So that. was the next massive massive growth. area. There's a lot of misconceptions around. sleep and. insomnia. And I've I've seen you talk about some.

of them online. What are some of the big. misconceptions that you've discovered. during your work with sleep and insomnia. that people tend to believe about sleep. that are most harmful or least conducive. with being a successful sleeper? Well, sleep has gone through a similar. kind of metamorphosis in society as. mindfulness has. You know, just a few. years ago uh it used to be a badge of. honor to show off how little sleep you. got. For something we spend a third of our. life doing, people gave it very little.

thought and and respect. And uh that. shifted. You know, Matthew Walker's book. Why We Sleep has has played a huge part. in that. Hopefully Calm has has played some part. in of that as well. So I think the. biggest thing is people just recognizing. how important it is. Everyone needs a. sort of different amount of sleep. depending on our genes, somewhere. between 7 and 9 hours sleep every night. Uh for me, I need about 8 and a a. quarter uh to feel good. Don't know if. you know your level. You can probably.

cope on about 3 hours, I imagine, given. how much you do. I need to figure that out. But I've I've. I mean I've yeah. It's It was thinking. about something you said earlier about. how in your toughest times, you you. know, when uh Mind Candy was struggling, you started to neglect like the. fundamentals of being a human being. Yeah. Like nutrition and water and. sleep. These These These things have. become like as you said, I mean it's. changing slowly now, but they became. like disregarded as as being important.

things. It's like we got further from. being human beings. Yeah. And it's like. I I I write about in my book as well. that it's so it's so um. inspiring and amazing that a lot of the. cures to the ailments or the mental. health ailments in our lives or the. problems we encounter are just like. going back to being a human being. Like. drink water instead of Coke. Like try. not to drink too much caffeine. Sleep. Yeah. Talk to your friends. It's like. there's no like There's no like And but. the problem is as well,

there is a culture of trying to make the. solutions feel complex so I can sell you. some [ __ ] Whereas really they appear to. be so simple. Well said. We always look. for the overcomplicated solution, don't. we? We think it has to be. But. fundamentally, those are the basics that. you just mentioned. Johann Hari talks. about in his book. Lost Connections is. one of my favorite books. We're we're. disconnected from what made us human as. our brains and bodies evolved over. 100,000 plus years. And it's so basic. So sleep is one of those key things. And.

if we're not getting enough good sleep, if we're disrespecting it, if we're. drinking alcohol before we go to bed, it. affects every aspect of our life and. we're more irritable. We're less. creative. Our memory gets shot. We. we just go into a negative compounding. situation. And uh so yeah, treating. sleep with respect I think is one of the. most important things we can do. Quick one. As many of you know, I've. been trying to make my life a little bit. more sustainable as it relates to energy. ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport. and bought an electric bicycle. And.

MyEnergi, as a sponsor of this podcast, are one of the brands that make that. transition much, much easier. They are. at the forefront of British renewable. eco-smart technology and their products. are really, really changing the game. If. you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm. holding in my hand. This is called the. Eddi, right? It's the UK's number one. solar-powered diverter. So what is a. solar diverter? It's a device for people. like you and me that means you can. divert your excess energy back into your. home rather than back into the grid,

which will save you power and money. It's super user-friendly and easy to. install and you can control it using the. MyEnergi app on your phone. To find out. more about this product and more. products like it that will help you make. that sustainable transition, head over. to myenergi.com. and um. I highly recommend you check out the. Eddi. It's um it's a real game-changer. of a product and one that I'm going to. be installing in my home soon. Tough times, sleepless nights. Let's. talk about that then this year. Difficult for everybody. Uh for everyone's own reason. Some.

people lost their jobs. Some people lost. family members. Some people lost their I. guess their purpose in life generally. And and a lot of people because we're. all. now, you know, we were pushed to live. our lives through glass screens more. than ever before, lost a lot of other things and um. how is this How is this last year and. this tumultuous pandemic been for you? It's been. a.

very challenging time. Uh. the pandemic, as you say, has affected. everybody on earth in in many, many. different ways. It it has been. extraordinarily difficult. So my. perspective is is more, you know, a personal perspective, but I. think stepping back a little bit, if we. go back to 2020, you know, when this. first hit, it was all unknown. There was. a lot of anxiety. Uh but. this was. uh we were in this together. And there.

was a lot of. intrigue about what was going on. We. didn't have to commute into the office. anymore. We could work from home. Zoom. was this incredible opportunity. And so 2020 for for myself uh and the. whole company, I think generally was was. um. not too bad. You know, it was it was uh. it was all bearable. 2021 for myself. personally has been pretty challenging. I think months and months and months of. staring into a tiny little screen.

hunched over my laptop like everybody. else has taken its toll. And I didn't. treat my posture with respect. I didn't. I didn't look after my mental health the. way I should and I started to This. started to compound and I I had quite a. serious back problem. I had a a. herniated disc um because of all the. hunching and that pushed on a nerve, which meant I couldn't walk and I had. very serious pain every day. Um which meant uh.

uh I couldn't sleep very well. Um I saw. multiple physios. I started to take. painkillers, which stopped the pain, but. then filled my head with cotton wool. And so but I still had to work and I. still had to kind of um communicate with. my team and lead the company and I. couldn't do exercise. And so for many, many months, I was not in a great place. It was a a very, very difficult. uh summer and beyond this year. Um so yeah, 2021 has been tricky. I'm in.

a much better place now, but it it it. has been very very challenging. And I'm. very fortunate in that, you know, I. haven't lost any loved ones and it's. we've got to put things in perspective, but from a health and and work. angle, this is I think been one of the. the toughest, if not the toughest years. that that I've I've personally been. through. So many people, as you've described. there, staring at a screen every day, end up burning themselves out. What's your experience with burnout as a.

topic? And is that what you're describing. happened this year? I think it was a combination of things. I think it was burnout connected to. chronic stress, connected to the back. pain, and. again, all these things start to. negatively compound. The lack of. exercise. I was. living on my own and and didn't have. much kind of. human connection. All these things kind of came together. and and created a perfect storm.

And we have over 300 people at Calm now, and the team were going through their. own versions of of that. It certainly. wasn't just me struggling. And we do. this survey every 6 months called. Culture Amp, where the whole team kind. of answers a bunch of questions, and. they can leave anonymous comments. We. had thousands of anonymous comments in. the last one we just did. And we've never seen anything like it in. in the data. The the the the number of. people talking about. stress and burnout is way beyond.

anything I've ever seen in my career. And so I think it is just now we've been. in this situation for 18 months, and it. has just gone on and on and on. It's it's really affected everyone, and. we're seeing this now across pretty much. every company. At the start of the the lockdown, going. back, I think what companies were seeing. was a real surprise. Instead of people. bunking off and taking it easy and. putting their feet up and watching. Netflix all day, people were working. harder. We saw this at Calm. Um and I think many companies have. I.

think there was a Harvard study done. recently showing that the average work. day has increased by almost an hour when. people are working from home. So, people. are working harder. They they can't. really switch off. There's no boundary. between work and and non-work, and it's. creating this this compounding. um toll on the minds and and bodies of. of everybody. So, it's a crisis. It's a. very very serious issue. We are taking. this very seriously at Calm. Obviously, we are. Uh we want to support our own team and.

other companies around the world. And. just a few things that we've tried to. do. We're still figuring this out. ourselves, figuring out what the best. way to work and support our teams are. So, one thing is we have, you know, unlimited holiday, but teams don't take. them cuz it's very hard to do. I've. taken a few breaks during the pandemic, but I don't think I've had a single. break where I wasn't on at least one. Zoom call or I didn't check Slack or. email at least once or twice a day. And we made the decision back in October. to do a mental health week. We've done a.

few mental health days where everyone. sort of steps away. And. previously, I'd have said, "What a. ridiculous idea. Who on earth gives the. whole company a week off? You know, we. are in such a competitive space. We. can't afford to do that.". And we did it, and we agreed it would be. the right thing to do, and I think it's. one of the smartest decisions we've. we've made in the in the history of the. company, because it gave the whole. company a chance to properly step away. and recharge their batteries, knowing. that there wasn't any. calls they were missing or any important.

things going on. And you know what? We. came back a week later, and everything. was fine. The business was still there. We Fortunately, we had a few colleagues. that stayed to make sure everything. stayed up and could support our. audience, but yeah, that was one of the. smartest things we did. to support the mental health of the. team. What changes have you made now in your. life based on the last. year, which you described as being the. hardest of your your life, um to make. sure that you are taking better care of. yourself, as you've. as you've alluded to?

Yes. And so, there were a few other. reasons why it was a very hard year, sort of beyond work, which um. uh. were compounding all all the different. challenges. I just think I've learned a lot about. being a better leader by developing kind. of a meditation practice and and being. more mindful. of so many different things. One is just. not getting sucked into the the highs. and lows of the entrepreneurial journey. You know, nothing is ever amazing or as. disastrous as it seems. And I think.

teams want to follow calm leaders who. are stable and, you know, celebrate the. wins, but but don't get sucked into the. vortex of of neg- negativity when things. go wrong. I don't go to bed anymore doing emails. and waking up in the middle of the night. with a phone glued to my face. I don't. reach for my phone first thing in the. morning anymore, as something like 60%. of people do, because suddenly, instead of gently coming into the day. and letting your mind kind of calibrate. with the the world, you're. you're throwing yourself into Twitter.

and Instagram and the news cycle and. everything else. I think that's been a. really really important thing. Um four areas that I that I really think. about that are the foundations to being. healthy and looking after yourself, which then enables you to look after. your friends and family and your your. company and employees. Um one is. nutrition, what you put into your body. Number two is exercise, how you move. your body. So important. Number three is your mind, taking care of that, you know, developing a practice that works for. you. And number four is sleep, and.

making sure you get that right. Sounds. very simple, but you keep those things. in balance, you respect them, and again, going back to this idea of a foundation, that is a very powerful foundation to. stand on to to do everything else you. want to do in life. Amazing. I can't agree more. That philosophy again about being being. a little bit more human. One of the. things that um. wasn't on that list is. in like meaningful connections. Mhm. And.

one It's interesting cuz when I was. reading through your story, and if I'm. being nosy here, just tell me to [ __ ]. off. Like I'm feeling like Uh-oh. I. couldn't see. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't I couldn't um I. couldn't see you speak openly much about. your your relationships and your like, you know, that that kind of thing. Something I talk about a lot here. because I struggled a lot to form uh. relationships over many years for lots. of different reasons. Ego problems, thought the world revolved. around me. Yeah. Like totally selfish.

guy, unwilling to compromise. Flipping that question to you, how have. you. gone through the years of building these. great companies and going through the. tumultuous storms of their, you know, inevitable rise and fall and rise, whilst maintaining healthy romantic. relationships? Yeah, good good question. I think we're. we're similar, and I think because I've. been so obsessed and focused on my my. business, I haven't been the best.

partner to my girlfriends, and they have. been, you know, I look back and and think of the many. kind of mistakes I've I've made along. the way, and how I haven't. kind of uh. I haven't been mindful and thoughtful. and respectful in the way that I connect. with someone on on that level. So, yeah, I've done a lot of thinking and a. lot of learning. over lockdown, and I think it's made me.

not just a better leader, but a better. human being and a and a better person. So, um. yeah, very excited about what comes next. on on that level. Was there a moment. where you realized the true value of. that of meaningful connections with. another person? Because it took me a. long time. I thought money was the only. thing that mattered in life. I thought. being successful and people and being. like well-known and all these things and. having a Lamborghini, I thought that was. the the pathway to happiness. And at. some point, I realized, actually.

probably from learning like vicariously. through people who had who were like. further up the path and were miserable, that I maybe needed to change course. Was there a point where you And I also. remember listening to the TED Talk about. a 100-year study of men who were married. or single, and those that were married. not only were healthier, they had less. disease, they lived longer, and they reported to. being happier. And then obviously, I I. read Johann Hari's book one day while I.

was actually in on the New York office, and it was just no one was in the. office, and for some reason, you know. how like YouTube loops through, it stumbled onto one of his. conversations, and I just couldn't I was. like I couldn't work. I was transfixed. on what he was saying. It just the penny. was just dropping for me in so many ways. about this like lost connections and the. the importance of connection and. purpose. And I [ __ ] I sent him an. email. I was like, "Come on my podcast.". I had no listeners then, so I'm so glad. he did it. But I I became obsessed with. that, and that's when I started saying, "Okay, if the North Star of life is to be happy.

and fulfilled, I need to start. compromising some of this like. money-making selfishness, even though it feels so counter. counterproductive, and pursue and invest. in. connections and romantic connections.". So true. And not Yeah, not just romantic. connections, but friendship connections. and family connections. And when. entrepreneurs are stuck on their vision, and off they go holding onto that rocket. ship, you sacrifice so much. And.

And it's not just. money. I'm not driven by money. That I. think that's the byproduct of building. something successful. To me, what kind. of puts the blinkers on is just a big. vision and just going charging through. walls and making it happen. But even. then, you're you're sacrificing a lot. along the way. And so, being more. thoughtful and a little more mindful for. this next phase, I have recognized that. I need to get a little more balance in. my life. I need to. make sure I am. um. when I'm in a relationship that I'm.

supporting and looking after and. spending time with my girlfriend, that. I'm spending time with my family, that. I'm calling my mom every day, that I'm. you know, uh. showing up for for people, you know, when I'm. playing with my daughter in the. playground, not feeling that urge to. check my phone, but being fully fully. present and it's it's not easy to do, but it's incredibly important because. yeah, I I mentioned those four things. that are important to building that. foundation, but nothing in life matters.

more important than our relationships. that we build uh throughout our life. So, that has been a massive learning for. me and uh yeah. I'm asking this question maybe because I. want the answer for myself, but I I I I. feel myself so much in your words, which. is knowing the right answer, but. struggling to do it. Yes. When it comes down to it. Yeah. How how? Oh, it's such such an important. question. I'm still trying to figure. this out my myself. One of the things.

that. developing a meditation practice has. helped me do uh. is improve my empathy and um I now am. better at seeing the world through other. people's eyes. And before that, again, very self-centered and self-centric, I. couldn't do it. And I used to just. assume my girlfriend's thought just the. way I do, that their brains were wired. like mine. If I thought they had a. if I thought there was an area they. needed some help on, I'd buy a self-help.

book for them to. to to sharpen them up cuz that's what. I'd love to happen. And then I realized. that no, our brains are wired very. differently. They need very different. things. They need that she needs her. emotions validated instead of me trying. to solve the problem every time she. uh mentioned something. So, I think. that's made a massive massive shift. And. I think just again, being. being more responsive instead of. reactive. So, when. you can you just hear better. You the.

brightness is turned up on life when you. develop a. a meditation practice, you can see these. warning signs of what someone needs and. then respond to them instead of just. being lost in your own world. So, if. your girlfriend is asking you for a walk. or if she is saying something to you, you not only hear what she's saying, you. can understand what's behind it as well. And I think uh that's important. Again, not easy to do and get right all the. time, but it's it's it's vital if you. were to build strong, healthy. relationships in life.

Communication. Mhm. Vulnerability. All kind of. all kind of mixed together. I mean, great communication I think is whether. it's with your team or with your partner. centered on being open and vulnerable. about how you're feeling. What journey. have you been on in in terms of learning. how to be a good communicator, whether. it's with your girlfriend or whether. it's with your team? What is the what is. the the foundations of successful. communication? I remember my grandmother. many years ago telling me when I was.

jabbering away and talking nonstop at a. a dinner as a young lad, she said, "Michael, you have two ears. and one mouth. Use them in that ratio.". I was like, "What are you talking about, Grandma?". Um but the the penny dropped, you know, years later. uh and I try and listen a lot more than. I talk. And I try not to do that thing. that most people do is when they're. talking, just not listening, just. getting ready to say the next thing. And. also respecting and understanding that. that people have different viewpoints.

and different life experiences. And. there isn't. ones and zeros. It isn't right and. wrong. Life is not black or white. It's. beautiful shades of gray and nuance. And. I think we've lost that, you know, in. the culture wars and the the the intense. political environment of today and the. immediate dopamine. frazzled social media world that we we. live in. So, yes, to in in in short, just trying to.

to to listen and understand where. someone is coming from. I think a good. whenever you're in a an argument with. with a partner, a very good technique. I've learned is instead of just. back and forth, I'm right, you're wrong, and getting nowhere, is pausing and. stopping and and saying letting them. talk. and then instead of firing back and. telling them why they're wrong, replaying what they've said. and having them and seeing that light.

come on their eyes and going, "Oh my. god, you get it." And them doing the. same for you. And you're like, "Wow, all. right." Simple little breakthroughs uh. like that, I think um are very. effective. Isn't it so true? My my. girlfriend started to say something to. me which really opened my eyes to that. She said, "I just want to be. understood." Mhm. And so I tried that as. a technique, exactly what you've. described, which is when she's finished. giving me her side of the events, I will repeat back to her what she said. to me. Yeah. Cuz and I'll say to her, "I.

want to be like super clear that I. understand here what you're saying is. it" and you can see her her smile. It's. like, "Ah.". Yeah. Because when you're in combat, it's so. unclear whether the message is landing. So, what you it ends up being this like. broken record of I'll try and land it. again. I'll try and land it again. Cuz. it's such a pacifying, amazing thing if. you're actually trying to solve a. problem versus trying to win a win a. battle. To wreck it as you've said, to. use that tactic of sort of wreck point. recognition. Well said. Esther Perel is. is brilliant at this. Um she's written. some amazing books on relationships and.

podcasts and yeah, she understands the. the nuance of all this better than. anyone. So, if anyone's struggling with. their relationship, I'd suggest doing. some homework with Esther. One might think that the founders of an. app like Calm that has reached so many. people um and that continues to scale. and do so much good in the world must be. the most calm humans ever. They must have. peaceful. you know, super just like I kind of. imagine them being like living in Bali,

like long hair, like just, you know, like couple of like tattoos, like. t-shirt with their chakras pinpointed. on. Um. that's what one would assume. Cuz that's. what the way people assume [ __ ] like. How accurate is that for you and Alex? Uh not accurate. And and I think that. there's a little bit of that and I think. we have certainly. become a little more like that on this. journey, but um. no, I think one of the reasons why Calm. has been successful is that that is not. the brand that we have built. We've.

tried to help people learn this practice. that is thousands of years old in a very. modern way. As I mentioned earlier, made. it simple, relatable, um. added a bit of fun, sprinkled a bit of. Hollywood stardust on top of it. You. know, as as Mary Poppins once wisely. said, a spoonful of. sugar helps the medicine go down. And. so, we have tried to respect the. authentic roots of mindfulness, but also.

adapt it for the modern age. And so, being calm isn't just about sitting in a. lotus position 16 hours a day on on top. of a mountain. It is about weaving it. thoughtfully throughout your life. uh so you can improve your own journey. through life and and those of all the. people around you. I think like, you know, I always. conclude this podcast with like, you. know, thinking of something nice to say to the. guest, but in your case, you've just. done a tremendous service to the world.

and it's so obvious what the the. compliment is for you. Like, I I think of all the things I've done in. my life and I'm like, the the the good. you've done by building that business to. millions of people you'll never meet. I mean, [ __ ] hell. You know what I mean? If we if if. businesses are seen as vehicles for. change in the world, unbelievable. Like unbelievable. Imagine there's. people in the Do you ever Do you ever. like. feel that? That there's there's some. young girl in the corner of India or.

some country a gazillion miles away that. you've made and your team have made. their day a little bit better. Uh. something horrific's happened to them. They're stressed. They've gone through. something. You've helped them Do you. ever like. Do you know what I mean? That is just it. just feels like the most incredible. thing. Oh. Well, I really appreciate you saying. that. Thank you. Do you feel that? I do. We do as a as a team. Um we have what we. call the the warm fuzzies channel in our.

Slack at at work and we read one out in. in every big meeting of how Calm has. changed someone's life. And um. whenever we're having a really tough day. and we're really stressed and and this. helped me this difficult year is going. on the App Store and reading the. millions Don't read all of them, but. there are millions of five-star reviews. covering all aspects of life. It's just. the most incredible tonic to recognize. the impact we've had. It's everything. from little kids who are being bullied. at school who find Calm kind of. supportive and helpful for them to.

couples that were on the brink of. divorce doing the daily Calm every day. and it it reuniting their love to. addicts giving up um. their drugs to people who are suicidal. having their lives saved because Calm. and the the content that we create has. has transformed them. It's it's. goosebump inducing and and we feel very. lucky and grateful that we get to work. on this every single day. Unbelievable. Well, thank you because you've done the. most uh. most incredible service to the world. We. talked earlier about the the two.

foundational challenges of our time. being like saving the planet and then. making sure the people on it are, you. know, fulfilled, happy, whatever you know, calm. Um and that's exactly what you're. doing. So, thank you. Thank you. Um I'm also, as. you know, a big. someone who's very interested in trying. to support the mental health crisis in. whatever way I can. And actually, one of. the joint investments we have is um in a. company called Atai. I I heard about. psychedelics. I dabbled. Sue me. Um.

You got no evidence. Um other than my. words. Um I dabbled in I did magic. mushrooms for the first time. And then I. was reading the data and the research. online, and I was looking for companies, and I came across Compass Pathways, and. then Atai Life Sciences, which is using. psychedelic and non-psychedelic um. therapies to help cure the mental health. crisis. And then when I joined the. company as an investor and as the. creative director now, I learned that. you were an investor as well. Yes. Why did you support that company? Wow, I think this could be a a whole new.

podcast all on its own. I'll give a a. short answer. I think psychedelics. will play an incredibly important role. in solving the global mental health. crisis. Uh these compounds that have. been under our nose for decades and. vilified, you know, from the war on. drugs back in the the '60s, could. could and the scientific evidence is. showing that they may well be able to. help hundreds of millions of lives. Um. So, that to me ties into Calm's mission, and I think it's incredible work that.

they're doing there. Not just with. psilocybin, but with ketamine, with. ibogaine, with MDMA, a whole range of of. different substances that that interact. on the brain in in different ways. Those compounds combined with therapy in. the right set and setting. I I think it is it is a a golden key. that uh can unlock so much positivity. for humanity. So, that's why I invested. And uh also because Christian. Angermayer, who's part of the company, I.

met him years and years ago. He came. into the Calm office like a tornado. And. I thought, whatever he is on, I want. some of that. And I was like, where do I. sign? I'm I'm in. And um so yeah, very. proud uh investor and supporter of that. business. Amazing. So, as I told you, there's a. closing tradition we have here on The. Diary of a CEO. It's a new one, but I. love it. Our previous guest has written. a question for you. What is the pain you enjoy having?

Pain is. horrible. No one wants it, but pain. serves a very important purpose. It uh it alerts us to. a problem. And uh. without pain sensors, we are. going through life. blind, and and it's very dangerous. So, pain, whether it's mental or physical.

is horrible, but it's valuable. And so, any type of pain, rather than just. ignoring it and trying to mask it, it's. important to lean in and and listen to. it. So, uh I could give many, many. different examples. Maybe one we've. talked a little bit about today is the. sleepless nights. It's it's the pain of. waking up at 4:00 a.m. in the morning. in a cold sweat, staring at the ceiling. and being so unhappy and frustrated with. that development.

But recognizing that that pain, that. mental pain, is there for a purpose. It's my subconscious brain telling me to. pay attention and to sort out a problem. that I'm not addressing during my waking. hours. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Michael. It's been. such a tremendous honor um having this. conversation with you, and I could speak. to you for hours, but I won't. Um I. followed you for a good decade since. Moshi Monsters, and I I saw your meteor. meteoric rise then, and you've you've. risen even higher and done even more.

goodness to the world with your with. Calm and along with Alex. And I just. want to say thank you. Thank you for the. inspiration. You're one of the. entrepreneurs that inspired me, you. know, when I started out, and you've. you've continued to inspire me to this. day with your sense of purpose, but also. your entrepreneurial prowess. So, um. it's an honor to meet you. It's an honor. to have you on the show, and uh you've. been just, you know, superb superb as a. guest. Well, thank you. And thank you to. you for for having these conversations. Um during lockdown, I lived on the west. coast of Ireland in in Galway, and I.

would run up and down the promenade by. the sea, God knows how many thousand. times, and listened to your. podcast multiple times through the rain. and the wind, and just been just so. inspired and delighted by that. And uh. so, thank you for that. Aw, well, you've you've continued to the. the tradition, and you've you've um. added to it in a really profound way. I. really, really mean that. Thank you so. much, Michael. Thank you.