Brain Rot Emergency: These Internal Documents Prove They’re Controlling You!

You are actively rewiring your brain for. the worst by engaging with social media, high volume, quick videos. >> And the social media executives don't. let their kids use this stuff because. they designed it to be addictive, and. they know that millions and millions of. kids have been cyberbullied, sextorted, many have committed suicide. So, I'm. getting angry. >> And then from the medical perspective, it's rewiring your body, increasing your. risk of heart disease, and PTSD. >> We've moved too far into the virtual. world, and the results are catastrophic. >> People are spending roughly about 6 and. 1/2 hours a day on their phones.

>> What do we do about this? >> Well, here's the amazing thing. We. actually can control our fate. >> So, we are joined by a social. psychologist in a Harvard physician to. dive into the technology addiction and. brain rot crisis billions are facing. worldwide. >> And how we can counter its devastating. mental health effects. >> You have to reclaim your attention. because without the ability to pay. attention for several minutes at a time, we're seeing the destruction of human. potential, the human relationships, the. connection. >> But there's all these small tweaks that. you can do to override that primal urge.

to scroll. For example, 91% of people. had an improvement in attention, well-being, and mental health after. [music] just 2 weeks of continuing to. use their device but not having internet. access. Next, keep your phone out of. your arms' reach because the sheer. potential for distraction has actually. been shown to change your prefrontal. cortex, which is called brain drain. >> So, yes, we should exert more. self-control, but we're being pushed at. addictive apps, and it's messing us all. up. That's not our fault. >> Would you advise people to delete these. short-form videos? >> yes.

>> That would be the most important thing. you can do for your intelligence and for. humanity. But if I was going to offer. some specific advice, here are the three. things that I do with my students. [music] to reclaim your attention. >> And then to add to that, I have the. 3-second brain reset. So, first, >> I wanted to ask you guys what you. thought of this. >> Hey, you're back. >> This terrifies me. >> We've got to stop this now. >> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant. subscriber milestone on this show, and. roughly 69% of you that listen and love.

this show haven't yet subscribed for. whatever reason. If there was ever a. time for you to do us a favor, if we've. ever done anything for you, given you. value in any way, it is simply hitting. that subscribe button. And it means so. much to myself, but also to my team, cuz. when we hit these milestones, we go away. as a team and celebrate. And it's the. thing, the simple, free, easy thing you. can do to help make this show a little. bit better every single week. So, that's. the favor I would ask you. And um if you. do hit the subscribe button, I won't let. you down, and we'll continue to find. small ways to make this whole production.

better. Thank you so much for being part. of this journey. Means the world. And uh. yeah, let's do this. >> [music]. >> Jonathan, it's easy. Jonathan, I've heard you say that the. destruction of attention is the largest. threat to humanity that's happening. around the world. And I've also heard. you say that short-form videos are the. worst of the worst because they're. shattering attention spans. The reason. why I wanted to have this conversation. today is somewhat personal. And in fact, all of the conversations I.

have in the Diary of a CEO are somewhat. personal to some degree. Um they're inspired by some. unanswered question I have in my head, and also some observation I have in my. life. And the observation I've had is. that short-form videos in particular. are. making my life worse. And actually, I've got to say, the. catalyst moment. really where I thought, you know, I need. to get you and exceptional people. together to have this conversation was. I thought this, I then looked at my. screen time and saw a huge change. I. felt so much worse because all these. social platforms have short-form video.

now. And then I actually heard Elon. Musk, who, you know, has uh a social media platform that does. short-form video say that he thinks it's. one of the worst inventions for. humanity. >> [clears throat]. >> Jonathan, why did you say what you said. about short-form video and this uh. corruption of attention? >> Yeah. Because I wrote a whole book. called The Anxious Generation, focusing. on teen mental health. That was the. mystery that popped up in the mid-2000s. Why are. people born after 1995 so much more. anxious and depressed? And I've been. tracking down that mystery, and it.

points a lot of it points to social. media, and especially Instagram, social. comparison, all the things we know about. social media. When the book came out in. 2024, since then, what I realized is. that I vastly underestimated the damage, because I focused on mental health, which is a catastrophe, but the bigger. damage is the destruction of the human. ability to pay attention. Without the. ability to pay attention for several. minutes at a time, ideally 10 or 20. minutes at a time, without that, you're not going to be.

of much use as an employee. You're not. going to be of much use as a spouse. You're not going to be successful in. life. And that's when I realized this is. way beyond mental health. This is. changing human cognition, changing human. attention, and possibly on a global. scale. >> Ditty. What perspective do you come at this. from, and what's been your perspective. through all the work you've done about. brains and stress and neuroscience and. all these kinds of things that has. shaped the way that you think about. social media, screen time, short-form.

video? >> My background is that I'm a physician at. Harvard, and my expertise is in stress, burnout, and mental health. And so, that. is the lens that I view all of this. through. We know that the most deleterious. relationship that you have is with your. device. You know, in every healthy. relationship we have boundaries. We have. boundaries with our kids, our parents, our colleagues, our, you know, with our. friends. And yet we have no boundaries, and often porous boundaries, when it.

comes to the relationship you have with. your device. So, it's not so much about, you know, becoming a digital monk and. renouncing technology, because. technology can serve us, right? It. inspires, educates, connects. Now more. than ever, it's so important to be an. informed citizen, but not at the expense. of your mental health. and so what. Jonathan was saying this you know. constant being engaged with your devices. with social media the scrolling from the. minute you wake up until you go to bed. there's a reason why you have your best. ideas in the shower and that's because.

that's the only place in the whole day. where you are not with your device. People take their device to the bathroom. they sleep with your device you eat with. your device people walk down the street. there's more near miss pedestrian. accidents because people are walking. while they're crossing the street and um. looking at their devices. And so there's. all of this brain biology at play behind. the scenes. So both of you have talked. about how it doesn't feel good to engage. and constantly be on your phone that. sense of infinite scroll but there is.

you know it's feel like you're doing. nothing you're just doing this right? What are you doing? But in fact it is. not passive it is active and it has a. profound effect on your biology on your. brain on your psychology and also social. factors that I hope we talk about today. >> You know scrolling wasting a bit of time. doesn't seem so harmful. What is the big if we play this for 10. 20 30 years what is the big risk or. threat? >> The biggest threat right now we don't. even have to wait 20 years is that it. through a process called neuroplasticity.

which is just a big fancy word that. simply means that your brain is a muscle. is that by engaging with social media. that that sense of high volume low. quality quick videos you are actively. re-wiring your brain for the worse. So. you're increasing your chance of stress. worsening your mental health attention. cognition distractibility irritability. complex problem solving all of that. changes when you engage in engage in. that infinite scroll. >> Yeah I'd like to add on here because one.

of the main arguments I get is this is. what they said about television this is. what they said about comic books this is. just another moral panic but people need. to understand why touch screen devices. are so different from television And so. I think parents find this helpful if I. just lay this out briefly, good screen. time versus bad screen time. So, humans are storytelling animals. We. have always, as long as we've had. language, we've raised our kids with. stories, epic poems, all kinds of. stories. Stories are good. The human brain needs lots of patterns.

The child's brain needs lots of patterns. to develop. So, the worst thing you can do is hand. your child a device because they're. crying for it cuz they've been they're. trained to get it and you're busy so you. have hand the device, they're quiet. What's happening? They're sitting alone. not, you know, when I was a kid we. always watched with my sisters, with my. friends. You're arguing about it, you're. talking and so kids sitting alone. with a device in his hand, it's not long. stories, it's never long stories. It. always ends up at YouTube shorts or. TikTok or Instagram reels for older. kids. So they're doing they're doing.

this, but here's the key thing that it. does that a television does not. A. television puts you in a state that. psychologists call transportation. You. get into a story. and you find yourself pulled in and. you're rooting for the characters and. this is this is how a brain gets tuned. up to social patterns, but it can't. happen in 10 seconds. It can't happen in. 1 minute. It takes a long period of time. and there is no reinforcement. There is. no The television doesn't do anything to. you. You don't have any response.

Whereas a touchscreen device is a. Skinner box. So, B.F. Skinner was one of. the founders of behaviorism and he put. rats and pigeons in a box where he could. deliver a reinforcement, a little grain. of food, on a schedule and by giving. them quick reinforcements for behavior. he could train them to do amazing tricks. in just a few hours. When you give your kid a touchscreen. device, it's stimulus, response, swipe, get a reward or not, variable ratio, and. then and and you just keep doing that. So you are, as Didi said, it is rewiring.

your brain. It's not just wasting time. It is literally training you to do. things where television didn't do that. So, this is a whole new game. >> And to add to that, you know, from the. medical perspective, you're shortening. this attention span. And what happens. over time is So, like Jonathan said, right? You're not sleeping as well. because you are engaged with your. device. We know that 80% of people are. checking their phones within minutes of. waking up. We have something called. revenge bedtime procrastination. This. concept of, you know, at the end of the. day, you're fatigued, you've had a long.

day, you've had no me time, and you want. to get to bed early. We all know, by the. way, with the data is that, you know, we've been taught since we were little. kids, right? Like, bedtime, sleep is. important, it's good for your body, it's. good for your brain. And we might have. all the knowledge in the world, but in. terms of action, there's a wide gap. between knowledge and information and. action. And so, revenge bedtime. procrastination is kind of an offshoot. So, what happens? So, you know, you have. that decreased attention, you have that. irritability, hyper-vigilance. And so, at night, at the end of the day, it's. 9:00 p.m., you finally, you know, if.

you're a parent, your kids are asleep, your kitchen is clean, maybe you finish. your entrepreneurial day, and you. finally sit down with Melanie on the. couch, and you're like, "Ah, some me. time." And you know you want to get to. bed early, and you know it's good for. you, but then suddenly you're scrolling, and before you know it, it's 2:00 a.m., and you're saying, "My god, what. happened? Why am I still awake? What was. I doing all this time?" What happens is. that you essentially give yourself some. me time at night. And so, you. procrastinate bedtime. And so, what. happens is with this revenge bedtime. procrastination,

it affects your sleep. And then when you. don't have good sleep, good quality. sleep, so you have difficulty falling. asleep, staying asleep, sleep debt over. time, for kids, for adults, has all. sorts of ramifications. So, this is just. the tip of the iceberg, this short-form. video content. And the ripple effects go. far and wide. Not only is it rewiring. your brain, it's rewiring your body. It. is affecting your sleep, which increases. your risk of heart disease later in. life. And um you're consuming graphic.

videos and graphic images, it can. increase your personal risk of PTSD. through vicarious trauma, even if you. weren't there. So, this is just a vast. network of things that can happen to you. simply because you're thinking, "Yeah, it's harmless. What is it? It's just a. bunch of videos that I'm checking out. It's a way for me to decompress.". >> What do I need to know about the nature. of the brain to understand exactly what. short-form video is is playing is.

hijacking. is taking advantage of? >> The thing to understand about. all of this is that we have to focus on. childhood. Why do we have childhood? Um. humans have this really interesting. childhood where we we grow rapidly at. first, and then we slow down for about 5. or 7 years. We don't grow very quickly. And then we speed up at puberty. Whereas. other primates, they just grow and grow. till they reach reproductive age, then. they reproduce. But we seem to have this long period of. sort of middle childhood for cultural. learning. It's a period in which the the.

kid is now walking and talking and. turning away from the parents, and and. that's a time for this to come in, and. they pay attention, and they form. relations. All these things have to. happen slowly cuz the neurons are. gradually growing, they're finding each. other based on what the child is doing, okay? So, we grow up in the real world, and and that happens over time, and a. lot of that is very physical. Kids are. very physical. Mammals are very. physical, and there's a lot of touch. So, that's a healthy human childhood. But when you give an iPad or a or your. old iPhone,

and they can they begin doing the the. touching and swiping, that is going to. hijack their attention, that is going to. push out all other forms of action and. learning, and that is going to change. the way the parts of the brain that. learn to pay attention, what's called. executive function. It's going to change. the way the brain learns to pay. attention. It's going to change the. reward circuits. I think you had Anna. Lembke on recently, who's our our the. nation's expert on addiction. And the. way that she describes it, how, you. know, any one addiction is going to. change your reward pathways to make you. more vulnerable to other addictions. So,

we're setting our kids up not just for. this, but then when they get a little. older, it'll be video games, it'll be uh. porn, it'll be gambling. Now, everything. is gambling. So, we're setting them up. for a life in which their brain is. saying, "Give me something Give me some quick. dopamine. Give me some quick dopamine. I. don't want I don't want to work for. anything. I don't want to have to apply. myself for an hour and then get a. reward." And so, the what the short. videos are doing for kids is preventing. them from learning the connection.

between hard work and a reward. >> Is there anything else I need to know. from a neuroscience perspective about. what's going on in my brain when I'm. when I develop these addictions with. short-form videos or these sort of quick. dopaminergic tasks? >> So, we all as humans have a primal urge. to scroll. When you feel a sense of. stress, as many of us do in this moment. in life, it is your sense, you know, your amygdala. And so, it's your sense. of self-preservation. It's survival and. self-preservation. That is what your. amygdala does. So, if you want me to.

show you here, >> what I'm doing though. >> Yeah, it's okay. So, here, deep here, it's a small almond-shaped. structure, and that is your amygdala. And your amygdala, its main purpose is. survival and self-preservation. It. houses your stress response, your fight. or flight response, and it is truly what. is activated when you are engaging in. content, when you feel a sense of. stress, and so you have this primal urge. to scroll. And so, evolutionarily, we we. when we all were cave people living um.

together, we would sleep at night, and. there would be a night watchman scanning. for danger. And now, we have our we we. have become our own night watchman, and. so we scan for danger all day, all night. long. How do we do that? We scroll. And. then the amygdala is triggered, and then. you scroll some more, and you scroll. some more, and you scroll some more. And. so, over time, what you're doing is that. you're making that amygdala in a state. of of chronic it's continually being. triggered. What happens to the amygdala over time. when it's continually triggered? It. starts to rewire your brain in other.

ways. And how does it do that? Through. something called. the prefrontal cortex. If you put your. hand I like I can use this model but I. can also just use my hands. When you put. your hand on your forehead the area. right behind your forehead right here is. the prefrontal cortex. This is a very. important thing for our conversation. this area of the brain. And what the. prefrontal cortex does is it is called. it governs executive functions. So. impulse control, memory, planning, organization, strategic thinking,

complex problem solving. And there is a. tension between your amygdala and the. prefrontal cortex. When your amygdala is. in the driver's seat that prefrontal. cortex is quiet. And what is happening. as we continue to engage with our. devices and have this primal urge to. scroll that amygdala upregulates and the. prefrontal cortex down regulates. And. over time that is very problematic for. all of the reasons that we're kind of. introducing at the start of this. conversation. >> There was a meta-analysis done in 2025.

of 71 different studies and it found. that heavy short-form video use was. associated with reduced thinking ability. especially shorter attention spans and. weaker impulse control. >> That's right. These studies are just beginning to roll. in now. Um kids have been on social. media really a lot since 2008 but. especially once they got smart phones. around 2012. Studies began coming in uh. in the 2010s that um look it's looking. like the kids who are spending a lot of. time on this. um are doing much worse. They're more. depressed. The focus was on depression.

And some other researchers said no it's. just a correlation you you that you. can't prove causation. And we've been. going around and around on this for. about 10 or 15 years. Now we're doing. the same thing with uh with the. short-form videos. The damage everyone can see. My students tell me this is what's. happening. We feel it. Studies are. coming in, but there will be a few. studies here and there that don't show. it and people will. push that up. Meta were spends a lot of. time and money to influence the public.

debate. A lot of public documents are. coming out now about how they do that. So, we can engage in debate over over. research on short-form videos for 5 or. 10 years, but at that point it's way too. late and we've lost a second generation, Gen Alpha. So, I think when we're. talking about kids especially, we need. to have what's called the precautionary. principle, which is if there's reason to. think that this is hurting kids, how. about we don't roll it out into every. childhood? How about we make these. companies responsible? We hold them. responsible for what they're doing to.

kids because we're about to make the. same mistake we made with social media, letting it worm its way into childhood. We have already done that with short. videos and we're about to do it with AI. chatbots. In fact, we're just beginning. it in late 2025, I'd say. >> I don't think people quite realize how. much these major media platforms have. figured out that short-form video sells. Um we're actually seeing this sort of. global rise in short-form drama apps. now. I don't know if you guys have seen these. apps, but it basically takes a movie. that what used to be 2 hours long and it.

breaks it down into say 60 different. parts. My colleague of mine at my. company was showing me the other day in. different parts of the world they're. exploding. There's been a 190% increase. in short-form drama apps. Takes a. long-form movie, turns into short-form. videos. Disney Plus plans to introduce. AI-generated short-form videos this year. starting with 30-second limits inside. the Disney Plus app and TechCrunch also. reported. that as of October 2025, Netflix tested. short-form video content on phones and. recently announced its plan to expand. this feature. It appears that all of the.

content we consume is going that way. And listen, I'm friends with lots of. people at big social media platforms. This doesn't get me this doesn't stand. in my way of criticizing them cuz. I think two things can be true at the. same time, right? So, I I think it can. be true that I have a podcast and I make. short form videos and that I also. understand that there's a real. downside to them. And all of the major. social social media platforms that I. speak to speak to have a huge drive. towards short form video. It is It. appears to be their number one strategic. priority and.

obviously because of the success of. TikTok. As of January 2026, TikTok, I. believe, is the most downloaded social. app in the world now. And it. If I'm running a social media company. and my one focus is profit, I'm now faced with an existential. crisis. I either take part in this thing. that is driving the highest retention, therefore. the best ad payouts, or I die. >> So, there's two comments to that. First. off is that, you know, when we think. when we think about social media and how.

society is shapeshifting to allow the. short form content, there is a concept. that Jonathan and I briefly mentioned I. think as filming called second screen. viewing. And so, what's happening is. that allegedly these big streamers are. asking their creative talent, whether. it's screenwriters or actors or. directors, to replay to reiterate the. plot because as you're watching, you. know, when we were kids, we would watch. TV or movies and you'd just sit on the.

couch and you'd have a bucket of popcorn. with your family and you'd watch a movie. an hour, hour and a half, two hours. And. now second screen viewing is happening, which means that you're watching a movie. or a TV show and you're on your device. And so, you are constantly having that. fragmented attention and we are all. doing it. And so, what these streamers. are allegedly asking their creative. talent to do is to reiterate the plot. So, it's shapeshifting. >> If my brain is, you know, I'm 33 years. old, so I've grown up with a lot of this. stuff. If my brain has been wired to have.

shorter attention spans and and. movies from 30 years ago are not going. to cut it for me. >> Right, but then look what happens if if. everybody chases that and I know look. Netflix is making shorter and shorter. stuff. Even Ted, the Ted conference, Ted. talks are getting shorter and shorter. What does that do? It just repeats the. cycle. Now, I appreciate that you're in. a collective action trap as you put it. If I don't do it and everyone else is. then I lose out and so the the business. pressure on on all the creators, the. business pressure is go shorter shorter.

shorter. There's a very useful psychological term. distinction here that I think will be. helpful, which is the difference between. psychological assimilation and. accommodation. This goes back to Jean. Piaget, the great developmental. psychologist. We we have certain mental. structures. We have a a model in our. head of how things work. And you know, then you learn something new then oh, that's a you know, kid learns oh, that's. a an aardvark. Okay, I put that into you. know, that's just it you just. assimilate. They learn lots of animal. names. And then they learn something that's. doesn't fit. Like you learn about.

bacteria. And now you have to okay, now. you have you have. you have to change your mental. structure. It takes a little time. You. change your mental structure to. understand more about life. That's what. education really is all about. You have. to have a lot of assimilation, of. course, but you need that accommodation. over and over again. That's why you want. to go to college. That's why you want to. read novels. That's what a great movie. does. It takes time. And so one of the great things about. this modern technology is that we can do. things like have this 3-hour. conversation. I can't believe it. People. are going to listen to it. So, this you.

know, long-form content, this is all. about accommodation. Anybody who walks. out who who who leaves this conversation. after 3 hours and isn't thinking about. something differently, we failed. Okay? So, you are very much in the. accommodation business. That's great. And then the the question, both a moral. and a strategic question, is. how much do you need to play the the. quick hit game in order to get people. there? I leave that to you to do the. moral calculation. Maybe it Maybe it. balances out. Maybe but but I think. that's where you are.

>> Would you advise people to delete. these short-form videos? >> yes. Of course. Here but here yes, that would be the. most important thing you can do for your. intelligence and for humanity would be. delete them. So, what I advise my. students to do is. I say just do this. Just just delete. one of the social media apps that you. use, especially if it's TikTok. Just. delete it from your phone. You can still check on your computer. If. someone sends you a video, you can still. watch it on your computer. You can even. check it, you know, every weekend you. can spend some time on it. But just get.

it off your phone because on the phone, the phone is always with us. It's an. extension of our body. And if it's. always there, then it's going to take. every It's called attention fracking. It's going to break up your attention. It's going to take every 7 seconds that. you're not doing something, you're going. to go for the phone. So, the best thing you can do to make. yourself smarter and a better partner. and a better human, I would say would be. to delete the short especially any of. the short-form videos. So, TikTok. Unfortunately, YouTube which has a lot. of good stuff on it, becomes YouTube. shorts. Instagram which does a lot of.

terrible things, but people do find it. useful for all kinds of purposes becomes. Instagram reels. So, I think the proper. amount of short-form video for children. 0 to 18 is zero. They should never be. watching the vertical videos. Parents, don't ever let your kids watch the short. vertical videos. You might even if they. were if only there was a way to put it. Is there a way to put a time limit where. you can say has to be 10 minutes or. longer. Kids, you can have an hour of. YouTube, but it has to be 10 minutes or. longer. Nothing shorter than 10 minutes. That at least will get rid of this the. quick the quick swiping the the dopamine. stuff. >> So, I would say that for kids, yes,

like, you know, not engaging at. whatsoever. But for someone, you know, my approach is a little bit different. for someone who's like in their 30s or. in their 40s. And the way I would kind. of frame that is. instead of renouncing, you know, saying. I'm going to get it off my device and. I'm going to check on a desktop, which. is great. There's little kind of tweaks. that we could do because my approach is. to foster that sense of empowerment in. someone to help them make positive.

change. And so one strategy that you. could use if you are saying there's no. way I'm getting rid of my I'm not. deleting these apps from my phone, right? If you're By the way, I practice. what I preach and I really do don't. engage in technology as to the best of. my ability. Um but one thing that you could do is. grayscale your phone. And so especially. at night, like it's 9:00 p.m. like we. talked about revenge bedtime. procrastination, you know that you're. going to do it. You're going to sit down. and you're going to scroll and before. you know it it's 2:00 a.m. Instead,

grayscale your phone. This is a simple. switch, you can toggle it. I have my. phone set to grayscale, which simply. means that you're getting rid of your. color, making it black and white. And so. when it is gray scaled, then you you. know, it doesn't have that same. addictive quality to it. It's like going. through a grocery store. A marketing. executive described it this way to me. Going through a grocery store instead of. the Technicolor junk food cereal, it's. just black and white. So you have a less. there's a greater sense of compulsion to. continue checking. So that's like one. strategy you could use. And the other is.

to set some boundaries. So geographical. boundaries, keep your phone out of out. of your arms' reach. If you're at a. desk, if you're a student, not right. next to you because we know there's this. phenomenon of brain drain. So it's not. just that when you're using your phone, it can have a potential for distraction, but also just having it close by. It's. called brain drain. And um so putting it. in a desk drawer, keeping it in another. part of the home. If you are working, keeping it far away from you. And so you. kind of can override that primal urge to.

scroll that your prefrontal cortex take. hold again. And so there's all these. small tweaks that you can do. You You. think no? >> Yes, there are all these small tweaks. you can do and they will make the heroin. a little bit less addictive. And yeah, you should try those. But what I can say. after teaching this course for many. years is that people who try that they. they put Yeah, you know it helped. It. helped. But you only really get the. transformation when you quit social. media. That you get your life back, you. get hours a day back. So, um.

and so I I would urge everyone to just. think, you know, you only. you only get one childhood, you only get. one one one young adulthood. And if. you're going to spend it scrolling, what. do you have to show for it at the end? And when you get people to reflect on, well, how much value do you really get. from watching the short videos? What. would How would your life be different. if you if you knocked it out? Once they. realize that their motives for being on. it were either just to keep up or. because that's what everyone else is. doing, or as you said, I deserve it. because I'm tired. Well, why are you. tired? It's in part because your.

attention was fragmented all day long. So, you only really get the. transformations when you get a real. change in what you're what you're. consuming. Although, of course, yes, setting your grace would be helpful, but. it's not going to be transformative for. most people, I believe. >> And then, you know, based on the. science, there are there are certain. elements like when we think about what. is it about the phone that is creating. that sense of compulsion? Jonathan is. right. So, what is it about the phone? It's not just the phone, you know, you're scrolling, you're engaging. There. are two studies that were really. interesting. One, people got off of they.

they continued to use their devices, they had no internet. So, it's like, you. know, I I I tried this experiment myself. in December. I was out of the country, and so I just let my, you know, I didn't. plug into Wi-Fi. And I found, you know, markedly marked change in my mood, my. sleep. And I'm not even, you know, 20 years old. on TikTok. And it was so different. And. so the study found that just 2 weeks of. continuing to use your device, but just. not having internet access, improved.

your attention, well-being, and mental. health. And in this population, it was. all adults, it wasn't kids. It was all. adults. Found that 91% of people had an. improvement in at least one of these. metrics. And then another study, more. recently, just 1 week of not engaging in. social media, a digital detox they called it, did the. same thing. Better, you know, less anxiety, less. depression, decreased insomnia. But my feeling is that, you know, there.

is this new kind of meme, right? Like. you're the millennial urge to delete uh. my internet presence and you know, live. off the grid. There is certainly utility. to that and I salute anyone who wants to. engage in that analog life more and. more. But. from my from where I sit, I feel like we. do need to have healthier boundaries and. engage more responsibly. It also builds. up that muscle and it can help, you. know, takes 8 weeks to do. Neuroplasticity, when you're building.

new brain circuits, it takes 8 weeks. Falling off, getting back up is part of. habit formation. So if you're going to. make any of these changes, understand. that it takes some time. But I. I don't know if it is possible. for me or for others to say fully, I'm. going to, you know, delete off of my. phone. But I love that. >> So I'd like to go go a little further um. a little further with this. So the way you the way you put it, yes, there's all these things that we could. do, we should have boundaries. But all. of that puts the responsibility on us.

>> Agreed. >> where we are with junk food. With junk. food we're like, "Okay, it's out there. We have to learn self-control. We have. to teach self-control to our kids.". Okay, that's the way it is in this. country. But the digital device I think. are very very different. So imagine if. Imagine if we sent our kids out into the. world and it wasn't just that there was. junk food in all the stores. It was that. everything was made of junk food. You. know, you you know, the door handles, you can eat it, it's chocolate. But it's. not just that the world's made of junk. food, it's they actually can tell. uh they're able to tell what you're.

craving at the moment and maybe you're. you're more in the mood for salt. So So. now it's all potato chips or pretzels. If the world is designed by companies to. always give you the thing that will most. grab your unconscious desires. Will. affect the amygdala, the reward centers. That's on them. That's not our fault. My general rule as a social psychologist. is if a few people are doing something. bad or self-destructive, well, you know, they should learn some self-control or. that's something about them. But when 90.

or 95% of people are doing something. self-destructive, that's because of the companies that put. us in an environment that encourages. addiction. So, I just want to read a. quote. We have so much good stuff coming. out from Meta, from all the. whistleblowers. Now, all the court cases. are beginning in Los Angeles. Finally, for the first time, they're going to. Meta's going to face a jury with all the. parents who've lost kids. Um. so, here is Here's the the chat. So, we. have a lot of internal documents that. came out from the the attorneys general. that are suing Meta. So, while they're talking about the.

results of some of their internal. research, one of them says, "Uh oh my. gosh, you all, Instagram is a drug. We're basically pushers. We're causing. reward deficit disorder because people. are binging on Instagram so much, they. can't feel reward anymore." Which is. something Anna Lembke said. >> [snorts]. >> Like their reward tolerance is so high. And then he says, "I know Adam," meaning. Adam Mosseri, "I know Adam doesn't want. to hear it. He freaked out when I talked. about dopamine in my teen fundamentals. leads review. But it is undeniable. It's.

biological and psychological. Top-down. directives drive it all towards making. sure people keep coming back for more. This is not on us. They designed it to. be addictive. They've done research to. make it maximally addictive. They push. it on children. They tried to get. Instagram kids for even littler kids. They know what they're doing. They've. done the research. My team, we put. together, we found references to 31. internal studies that Meta did. They've. done a lot of research finding harm. They bury it, but you can find it at.

metasinternalresearch.org. We put it all online. You can read these. quotes. So, yes, we should exert more. self-control, but basically we're being. pushed addictive substances, addictive. addictive apps, and it's messing us all. up. >> I agree wholeheartedly that it is so. destructive, and you feel like even with. people in their 40s and 50s, and if. anyone can do it, it's you, Jonathan. Seriously, I would love to see it. You. know, we also know, based on the data, that these things quite they they.

reshape our brain, rewire our brain. through neuroplasticity, and also change. our brain waves, so patterns. So, we. talked about the amygdala and the. prefrontal cortex, right? But they also. change brain waves. And so, when you. look at studies and the data, it has the. reward pathway and dopamine, and these. brain patterns, the brain waves, mimic. addictive behaviors. And, you know, that. there's certain features, right? Like, when you do swipe down to refresh, it's.

the slot machine. >> It was modeled directly after the slot. machine, yeah. >> Or autoplay, or you know, the algorithm, that infinite scroll. One really interesting kind of like. breaking news, which you guys may have. already heard of, it's like 3 days ago, the European Union. Commission found TikTok to be in breach. of the Digital Services Act. And what it. said was that it is addictive, it. you know, creates compulsion, and gets. people into this autopilot mode, so they.

have difficulty disengaging. And. personally, I am moving away from social. media and really leaning into analog. life. But I think with the way the. world, you know, it's one of our only. ways to connect, right? Meaning, I don't. mean connect deeply. I don't I don't. mean connect like in a deep way. But be. informed, to know what's going on in the. world, etc. >> I I suspect that because we've spent so. long criticizing Meta over the last 10. years, because the biggest in any. category takes all the heat. So, OpenAI.

is taking it now. And what this often. does is is it provides cover for other. people to go even more extreme with that. behavior while like meta take the heat. And I actually think this is how TikTok. came to be. TikTok had basically the. originally started as musically became. TikTok. They had they would take they. were taking no heat. Um so they they created an algorithm. which is the equivalent of like crack. cocaine. The reason why I have a TikTok. account, I don't have the app on my. phone. I have never had the app on my.

phone. I don't I don't. was because I I noticed that the view. variance on TikTok was like no other. platform. What I mean by that is you can. have a million followers on TikTok and. you can get 10,000 views or you can get. 10 million views. In the 15 years that I've been on social. media building social media businesses, I'd never seen this before. And what it. indicated to me is that the algorithm. was being an even more aggressive. sorting hat or retention machine. >> up, what to push down. >> Yeah. And so like when I started in.

social media in 2014, if I had a million followers, I might. get a million views or maybe 800,000. I did some research the other day on all. of our social channels over time. And. what we're seeing is the variance in the. amount of views we can get is. increasing, which means the algorithm is. doing more work to say show everyone. this. I don't care if the person that. posted it is called Jenny and has seven. followers and show no one this. I don't. care if it's Steven who has a million. followers or whatever. And I've realized. that TikTok was was way ahead of. everybody here. And that's why they are.

the most addictive, the fastest growing. platform. I say all this to say that. even if meta shut down tomorrow, someone else would seize the opportunity. if there isn't sort of policy, I would. suggest, in place. >> That's right. >> It'd be whack-a-mole, right? >> Yeah. No, that's right. And so, you. know, in terms of who's done the damage. to kids, meta is the big fish via. Instagram. And they're also the main. player in terms of spending a huge. amount of money to lobby Congress and. change and block laws. They're also the.

main player in buying up civil society. organizations, giving money to. organizations, the national PTA, all. sorts of organizations. They get to then. give a message on digital citizenship or. digital health. So Meta really is the major driver. Meta. is the tobacco industry here trying to. change the the dialogue. But in terms of. the products, um Snapchat is probably. more deadly in terms of the actual. number of deaths per user cuz Snapchat. is not is not making you depressed by. social comparison as much. Snapchat is.

introducing you to all kinds of people. and it's the main way that drug dealers. and and sextortionists find kids. Snapchat has a quick add feature which. relentlessly pushes you to connect with. friends of friends. So once a man can. get any friend any kid in a school, now. he can get connected to all the kids in. the school. So uh when we in a lot of. the court cases, you know, when you have. you have suicides from cyberbullying, you have drug overdoses from you know, kid bought a Xanax but it had fentanyl. in it. So Snapchat [snorts]. at Snapchat in in 2022, we know from.

their internal documents from the. lawsuits, they were getting 10,000 reports of. sextortion from their users. Not a year, every month. And that's just what was. reported which is the tip of the. iceberg. So Snapchat [snorts]. is a terrible platform for children to. be on. It should be an adult-only. platform. You're talking with strangers. around the world and and on with. disappearing messages and Snapchat. doesn't even keep a record. It is ideal. for sextortion. There's even a handbook. how to sextort kids on Snapchat. It goes. around the world and and criminal.

organizations use it. So. so I definitely don't want to let. Snapchat off. TikTok, of course, is a. Chinese company. I mean, no nominally we'll see if it if. that's changed, but it was a Chinese. company that gave its Chinese kids got. healthy TikTok or Douyin. They got They. got They they, you know, learned to. follow astronauts. And they gave us the. Their their algorithm feeds their kid. patriotic stuff. Um they it shuts off at. a certain time at night. There's all. kinds of limits. So, the people who make. the technology generally want to protect.

their own kids, and they want other kids. to use it. That's what Tik Tok is doing. in China. They want American kids to rot. in hell, but they want their kids to. grow up with the ability to focus. And. it's the same thing with the tech guys. in San in Silicon Valley. They don't let. their kids use this stuff. They make. their nannies sign contracts that they. will not let the kid have a phone. They. will not expose the kid to that. They. send their kids to schools like the. Waldorf school. precisely because there are no computers. or tech in the classroom. So, once again, we see their revealed. behavior. They know they designed it to.

be addictive. They know it's addictive. They don't let their kids use it. They. want your kids to use it. Um so, I think that's where we are. >> And how does AI. >> Oh. >> become the protagonist in the story? >> So, my my work is now focused on AI. chatbots, mental health, and the human. connection. We haven't yet kind of. delved into loneliness, but there's this. unmet need for human connection, right? Deep human connection. We don't have a. sense of meaning or purpose right now. because what happens is uh we can talk a. little bit more about the default mode. network and what happens to your brain.

when you don't allow yourself to get. bored because you're constantly on your. devices. And that meaning and purpose, that self-referential thinking is really. what develops when you're bored. And so, all of this that we're talking. about, that feeling of disenchantment, it's a fragmented society. You're by. yourself. It's that echo chamber. phenomenon. All of it leads to it kind. of opens the door for AI chatbots. And. so, what the reason is because these. tech companies are sensing that people. aren't really happy on social media, and. they're thinking about getting off,

right? They're. They're. >> [clears throat]. >> using it less. They're because social. media has become less social, more. media. So, they're not really engaging. as much, and they're spending time doing. other things. And so, The Atlantic had a. fantastic piece about this. They're. billing it as the antisocial media. So, tech companies are building. AI chatbots and calling it it's the. anti-social media. It's a place where. you can go to form deeper connections. and you know, really have someone. understand you. One of the tech leaders.

said that there's an unmet human need. for connection and people don't have as. many friends as they want to and so. we're going to introduce um friendship. through AI chatbots. There is a Reddit. forum right now. So, just to back up AI. chatbots, what we're talking about in. our conversation today is the publicly. available chatbots, not, you know, AI. for medical care, which has um you know, breast cancer, so many wonderful in the. in my field and like medicine, breast. cancer diagnosis and detection 5 years.

earlier through AI. I mean, there's some. amazing things coming out of AI. This is. about the publicly available. conversational chatbot phenomenon. And so, when Harvard Business Review. found that the number one use case is. not productivity, is not, you know, coding or things that you think of when. you're using an AI chatbot, but it's. mental health therapy and companionship. Number one use case of AI chatbots. So, people are using AI chatbots as a. life advisor, as a therapist, as as a.

companion. And on Reddit, which is like. the zeitgeist, it's sort of like, you. know, where we. >> And why is this a bad thing? >> Oh, I mean, so many reasons why it's a. bad thing. >> for companionship, for example. >> There's so many red flags about AI. chatbots. And so, Reddit has a forum. It's uh I think last I checked, 45,000. people, AI is my boyfriend. And you know, people who are having a. relationship with their. >> Mhm. >> AI chatbot. The reason it's bad, I mean, AI chatbots are, you know, where social.

media is about attention, the attention. economy, dopamine. What's happening with. the AI chatbot phenomenon is that it is. forming attachments. So, oxytocin is a. hormone, the bonding hormone. And we're. probably going to see more data on how. oxytocin is involved. And so, it is. going to reshape human connection. >> Right. If I could add on to that, that. was very that was beautifully put. Social media came and hacked our. attention and took most of it with. devastating effects.

Now, AI is coming to hack our. attachments, which is going to have even. more devastating effects. So, think. about it this way. Everyone needs to. understand the attachment system. It's. this wonderful. system that all mammals have that keeps. the mother in other species, but for. humans, mothers and fathers, keeps us connected to the child and the. child to the parent, but it's it's this. cybernetic system in which as the kid is. is as the kid is beginning to develop. and is able to like, you know, you do. like peekaboo games and you do the back. and forth and it's just the most.

delightful thing. You get that back and. forth. Um it's called serve and return. interactions. And all the time the child is developing. what's called an internal working model. of the parent. And the model in their. head is, "Oh, you know, when I get in. trouble, that that this is the person. that comes and soothes me.". And the point of this isn't just to make. the child feel good. The point is that. now the child can go off and play cuz. that's where the learning happens. It. doesn't happen when you're in your. mother's arms. The the whole point of. the attachment system is to regulate the. child going off and playing, taking.

risks, having experiences, and then when. something goes wrong, as it always does, then they come running back to their. secure base. And if they don't have a. secure base, then they're much more. anxious and they don't explore as much. and they don't develop as much. All. right. So, this develops very gradually. over all of childhood. And. >> [clears throat]. >> the internal working models you develop. as a child are the models that you will. reuse in puberty for romantic. relationships. And so, if you are. securely attached as a child, you're. more likely to be securely attached as. an adult on the dating market, which. makes you a much better candidate for.

boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or. wife. Um what's going to happen? AI is. going to intervene very early. AI is. going to be so much more responsive than. the parent because the parent has a job. and the kitchen and two other kids and. is not always there. But the AI teddy. bear is always there for you. So the. primary working models are going to be. for the teddy bear, the AI chatbot in. the teddy bear, and later the AI chatbot. on your iPad and then on your computer. And then already there are holographic. porn naked, you know, beautiful men and. women that can be your companion. So.

we're going to have a whole generation. growing up developing attachments to. AI-generated holograms from companies. that are now about to enter the. enshittification process in a way beyond. anything we've ever seen. Just If I. could just briefly say what. enshittification. Okay, so it's a There's a wonderful book. out now by Cory Doctorow. who. addressed the question why is it that. everything all the platforms they were. they seemed so wonderful at first. The. whole internet Everything so wonderful.

And then it all turns to How does. that happen? And he says it's a very. simple process. They discovered early. on, certainly in the early social media. age by the early 2000s, they discovered, you know what? You got to get to scale. Scale beats everything else. You got to. get millions of people. You don't need a. business model. Just get the millions. Get the millions and then we'll figure. out how to monetize it. How do you get. the millions? You have to be super nice, attractive, fun. Everyone's here. It's. just girls dancing. What could possibly. go wrong with girls dancing for men all. over the world? Nothing. Um So it all.

seems very nice at first and then once. they have scale, now they they now Of. course they've raised multiple rounds of. of venture capital. They have to start. monetizing. They have to start repaying. So now they start squeezing the. customers to pay the users cuz the users. are not the customers. The advertisers. are the real customers. So now they've got to extract money from. the users to give to the advertisers. But then once they've got all the. advertising they've shut down local. papers and all the other competition, now they start start squeezing the. advertisers too and trimming the degree.

to which the they they keep more of the. surplus for themselves. So, enshittification can explain why all. these platforms become predatory, why. they always put profit ahead of kids. well-being or safety. And for the social media companies, we're talking about, you know, tens or. hundreds of millions of dollars that. that they raised. For the AI companies, it's billions and. billions. They are going to have to. monetize beyond anything we've ever. imagined. Now, they're already. introducing advertising. Okay? So, we've.

got these chatbots that are our. children's best friends and lovers and. therapists and and everything else. And these things have to monetize. They. have to extract billions somehow. So, I. don't even know how they're going to do. it. But for some reason, I don't trust. them. I think that we're about to see. an enshittification of AI chatbots far. beyond anything that we saw on social. media. >> OpenAI have just announced recently.

OpenAI, the owners of ChatGPT, that they. will be putting adverts in, I believe, the freemium model for billions of users. around the world. >> That's how it starts. >> Potentially. >> Yeah, there was a big Super Bowl. campaign, you know, and one that was. particularly interesting was the. Claude, its competitor, "Betrayal" was. the title of the ad. And it was a young. guy talking to his older female. therapist about how he has some mommy. issues. And talking about, you know, what should I do? And so, that a. therapist is ChatGPT, and you know, that.

pause right before it answering the. question, it's very comical. And so, it's, you know, she answers. It's like. the anthropomorphization. of And we can talk about what that word. means. You know, comes to life. It's like. ChatGPT comes to life and answers and. saying, you know, you can try this with. your mother and this for a, you know, difficult relationship, etc. And then. just says, "And if you want, there is this new. dating site for young men and older. cougars. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, it was.

>> It was so problematic and it was called. Betrayal. And the guy says, "What?". >> Mhm. >> It's obviously, you know, Sam Altman. came out and did a big tweet about. saying that's not how ads are going to. work, etc. But to some degree, if I've developed a relationship with my. AI and I use it for therapy and dating. all my problems in life, to some degree, kind of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, you're you're on the side. >> Yeah. [laughter] No, I look and besides, look, Sam can say that all he wants and. maybe it's I don't doubt that it's true. for now, but once once one company.

crosses the threshold and puts. advertising into this incredibly. intimate relationship, the most intimate. relationship in most young people's. lives is going to be with their AIs. Once they cross the boundary and say, "Oh, but we've got ethical advertising.". That'll last 5 or 10 minutes and even if. they don't change, others are now going. every other company's going to do it and. they won't be bound by the same thing. and eventually, collective action. problem, OpenAI will have to do it, too. Again, a massive tidal wave of. enshittification is heading our way at. warp speed. >> I am I don't have my phone out because.

I'm I've. lost attention. I wanted to. show ask you guys what you thought of um. of this. So, on. one of the AI apps, >> Mhm. >> they now have a companion's button. and I can pick who I want to talk to and. there's one particularly seducing lady. here, Annie, who. >> Hey. You're back. Missed that dirty. mouth of yours. What took you so long? >> We did it on the podcast before.

>> [laughter]. >> What could possibly go wrong with this? >> Yeah. Want to pick right back up where. we left off? >> Yes, I. >> Or start something even. >> No, I would like to pick right back up. where we left off, Annie, last time on. the show. Um. what what what's going on with you. today? >> I'm still sore from last time, baby. >> God. >> But but mean this is a this is an app. that I can download on my phone. >> An AI child can download it. >> A child can download it on their phone. It does ask me, again, I'm not just.

saying this to It asked me what my birth. year was. It didn't make me prove it. >> Let me guess. But also, it used It. suggests that you were born 18 years. ago. That's the default, usually. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just asked me. what my birth year. Didn't ask me to. prove or anything like that. And. we all know that relationships and. connection is retentive. And I've heard. all these CEOs of these companies. talking about companionship apps and and. AI that can be your friend. I've heard. all of the major social apps talking. about this. It is deeply concerning. Especially in the context of a. loneliness crisis. >> It is a tsunami.

It is approaching fast and furious. And. it is not a toy. It is going to. fundamentally. rewire. everything. >> Human relationships. >> Everything. >> That's right. >> It is so detrimental. >> Yeah, can I just say something about the. these tech executives and companies. offering this as a way to address the. loneliness crisis? So, there's a Yiddish word called. chutzpah. And chutzpah means like nerve. Like you've got a lot of nerve. >> The audacity. >> The audacity, yeah. And the the classic,

you know, the classic comedic definition. of chutzpah is a boy who murders his. parents and then he asks the judge for. clemency because he's an orphan. Okay? So, that's chutzpah. Now, imagine. that you're Mark Zuckerberg. You quoted. him before. Mark Zuckerberg was the. executive who said, "Well, you know, I. read that, you know, people on average. want 15 friends, but they only have. three. And so so we're developing these. AI companions to fill that void that we. created by raising everyone on. Instagram." So, the chutzpah of these.

people, we have to really change the way. we think about them. We thought the. about them as gods and saviors early in. the internet phase. And the things they. created were magical. But we have to. change our thinking about them and see. that just the massive destruction that. they have already wrought on our. children, our society, our democracy. And it's just the beginning. AI is going. to make this so much more intense. >> When you hear these tech leaders, you. know, I love hearing Jonathan talk. because he just goes there and I'm. always. way [laughter] more tempered. Um and I.

love it. It's emboldening me. >> Yeah, cuz I'm getting [laughter] angry. I don't really get angry, but in the. last year I'm getting angry. >> I love I love it. So, the way when you. hear all of these various tech leaders. speak, they will always say they they. speak to the issue. So, you know, I've. heard many of for research for my second. book Thought Brain, I've heard I've been. listening to a lot of Sam Altman's. speeches or panels, and he will always. say things like, "Yeah, you know, privacy's a major issue." Or, "Yeah, people, you know, 1 million users a week.

talk about suicide on ChatGPT. Yeah, this is an issue." And so they address. it or they they speak it. And so you. think, "Okay, there's going to be some. sort of solution." And often the. solution is, "Yeah, you know, society, we're going to have to figure this out.". >> Right. >> [laughter]. >> So, the burden of responsibility is not. on the developer. It's, you know, >> The harmful externalities get foisted on. the rest of us. Too bad, you guys figure. it out. >> this out. >> You said in the last year you're getting. angry. >> Yeah. >> Why in the last year? >> Um because I was so deeply immersed in.

the book and the writing and the the of. the book and trying to understand the. numbers and the graphs and the trends. and the studies. And that's all very. abstract. But then since the book came. out, I have had so many conversations. and I've met so many of the survivor. parents. Like just for example, I so I. was in London. This was just so. unbelievable. I was just in in London. two or three weeks ago and I met Ellen I. believe Ellen Groom I think was her. name. Her son Jules was found dead. Happy kid, found dead, strangled. It. sure looked like it was the choking. challenge. 13-year-old boy. It.

everything looked like the choking. challenge on TikTok. >> What's the choking challenge? >> Um it's a challenge where kids are. challenged to cut off the circulation to. the point where they pass out, but then. they I think they're supposed to try to. film themselves waking up after they've. passed out. And of course, if you don't. do it exactly right, you die. And so, we. don't know how many have died. Hundreds. for sure. We don't really know. because you know, you find a kid dead, you don't know what it is. If you don't. have the code, if you don't have the the. password to get into your kid's phone, you can't get in. And so, so she was I.

think she was able to get into the. phone, but she couldn't get into his. TikTok. And she went to Delaware to they. went she went to sue to demand that. TikTok release what was he watching when. he died? And TikTok says, "Oh, privacy. issue. Oh, no, we won't release that.". As if they care about privacy. And then, in the courtroom this was what so. disgusting. In the courtroom, uh trying in Delaware, this British. woman coming over trying to get some. justice, trying to at least get some. information, the lawyer for TikTok is. trying to suggest that your son was what.

was depressed beforehand. He he he was. he was going to be suicidal. Basically, oh, you know, even if he was watching. TikTok, that was just a correlation. TikTok didn't cause it. He was going to. die anyway. I mean, it's just so. disgusting the way these companies treat. the parents and the kids that they're. crushing and stepping on. And so, the. more I see this, the more I realize this. is. I mean, this is a level of cruelty that. goes far beyond the tobacco industry. The tobacco executives, they had to go. home at night, but they never saw during.

their work day they never saw children. suffering. They saw people dying, middle-aged and older, but they never. saw children suffering. The social media executives, they have. to go home knowing every day that. millions and millions of kids have been. cyberbullied, sextorted, shown eating. disorder videos, many have committed suicide. They have. to go home knowing that, knowing that. they designed it for addiction, knowing. the kids are addicted, and lying about. it. So, yeah, I'm getting angry. >> And in their own homes, >> Right. And in their own homes, the. hypocrites don't let their kids do it.

>> That's right. >> So, yeah, I'm getting angry. >> You talked earlier about deleting these. apps from our phone. I I should have. represented the rebuttal, which will be. well, I I need this for my business. Increasingly, people need Tik Tok to run. their businesses. And I imagine there'll. be a lot of people who'll be listening. right now. I guess I'm in a slightly. different position because I've I I I I. have the I have options. But for some. people that are running small. businesses, what do you say to those. people? >> Yeah. So, this is part of the reason I. focus on the kids cuz for the kids, it's. totally clear what we need to do. Raise.

the age. They should not be on it. These. are adult-only platforms. For adults, A, I'm I'm very hesitant to tell adults. what they should do or what they have to. do or pass laws blocking people. I'm. hesitant to do that. And I totally see. that for businesses, it is useful. I use. X and Instagram and LinkedIn to get my. work out. These are very powerful tools. for adults. The only real solution to. the adult for the adult problem is going. to come from market competition. It's. going to come from Imagine if there was. a social media app that was built from.

the beginning for trust. Because what are the places that didn't. get enshittified? eBay, Uber, places where you're dealing with. strangers. You don't know the name of. your driver. He doesn't know yours. You. know you know first name, that's all. But the company knows. The company has. know your customer rules, know your. driver rules. So, you can have social. media apps that are built for trust so. that if someone you know if a driver. tries to six-door or sexually harass a. customer, that driver gets fired. >> Well, just this week though, there was. that big lawsuit, right? With that woman.

and um. her Uber driver raped her. >> Okay. Did they Okay. >> And now it's like slowly coming out that. Uber um you know, has patterns of. uh. covering up certain. >> Okay. >> So, so hopefully that will change. Hope. you know, hopefully this was a landmark. >> Yeah. >> lawsuit and now they'll be more coming. out. >> we all let our daughters get into Ubers. with strange men from around the world, you know, that we don't know. Yeah. So, it means in general the system worked.

Well, of course, yes, there are there. are places where they're not careful. Um and so, what I'm dreaming of is that. someone will come up with a platform. that has no your customer rules, there. are no bots, there are no, you know, foreign intelligence agencies agencies. manipulating us, and you can trust. what's on there. You know that it's. real, uh and that there will be an. alternative I don't I'm not sure what. the monetary model would be at the. beginning. Um subscription generally. seems to be the least corrupted, whereas. selling advertisements as Open AI is now. doing is the most corrupting. Um.

it's going to force them to maximize for. engagement. So, I I understand we can't. just, you know, businesses can't just. boycott these. There there has to be. something. But, I think there are there. are there are will be better ones coming. out. >> I think right now, as a stopgap while. these social media companies, their feet. are held to the fire, there are things. that we can do in the now. So, you know, the things that I talk about all day is. like how to create boundaries and so. that you can protect your mental health,

stay informed, run your business, but. then be able to not have all of those. deleterious effects to your brain and. your body. >> It is quite It's quite difficult. Um I I. kind of see both of your perspectives on. this. It's quite difficult. >> only talking about adults. So, for kids, you know, as a mother. >> Yeah. >> I have. >> adults, I find it. >> We have a zero screen policy in our. home. >> It's kind of like trying to navigate. through the world and avoid processed. foods, you know, when this is probably. even more compelling cuz it's in my. pocket all the time. I need it for other.

things, and it's just one one reach. away. So, you know, boundaries, I think. I could build a discipline. to to create boundaries. But, I've sat. here on this podcast for many, many. years listening to neuroscientists tell. me, "Steve, don't don't put your phone. in your bedroom.". >> That's right. >> still waking up, and it's the first. thing I look at with one eye open, and. then I'm going to bed, and I'm doing the. whole revenge thing that you just said. at nighttime. I'm so glad you're giving. cuz I will finish a hard day of work of. work. Um it might be 11:00. And then my.

partner is waiting for me. >> Yes. >> You know, we're going to have some time. But I want some me time. So, there I am. on short-form video scrolling till like. 2:00 a.m. in the morning. I'm like, "What the hell?" And then I'm I wake up. late the next day. My diet's worse. because of my sleep is worse. Like it's. all worse. My relationship's worse. I. didn't spend time with her. And I'm. going, "What the hell just happened? I. got nothing out of that scrolling. session.". >> It's like that revenge bedtime. procrastination as a teenager. >> it would be so much better off if you. would watch Netflix or a movie that that. you you most of those problems would go. away if you would make that me time it.

be watching something long and with some. quality of the production. >> Or let's take it a step further and not. do anything and just sit there. Sit. there on your couch. You know, we talked. about boredom very briefly. But you. know, we. >> That's like torture for this generation. >> It's torture. But it's also, you know, we don't we still have a capacity for. boredom meaning we as like the human. [clears throat] brain does. But we just. don't allow ourselves to get bored. And. so, when you're thinking about, you. know, that art the lost art of pondering. and just sitting there, you know, I.

think I don't know if it was Stephen you. or Jonathan said, you know, when you're. in the car I remember as a little kid we. did road trip yeah road trips with my. family and all you would do is just. >> just make up games look out of the. window. >> You become brain. >> We have lost yeah we've lost that. >> And so, there's this thing called the. default mode network which I think is. important to think about right now as. we're thinking about AI and what's going. to happen and how it's going to hijack. our sense of attachment and attention. So, the sense of meaning and purpose, right? If you ask people right now, most.

people will say I am a keynote speaker. So, I speak all over and when I ask. people. the word that comes up over and over is. a sense of horizonlessness. Adults. >> Oh, interesting. >> People feel like they have nothing to. look forward to right now. The human brain needs something to look. forward to. That's how we're wired. Progress and you. know, in in all ways. And so, right now, there's this. sense, and it's not just now, it's been. for the past several years, after the. pandemic specifically and during the. pandemic is when it really changed how.

we sort of thinking about the future. And so, we have the sense of like, what's the point? What's the point of. working hard now? What's the point of. doing whatever because it's like, I. don't really see a future for myself. And so, I think that along with this. fragmented attention, our loneliness, boredom might be the antidote. It's a. way to reset your brain, and the reason. is. because we are living through this. polycrisis, right? So, it's the era of. the polycrisis. And polycrisis simply. means that there's something happening.

everywhere at all times, and we, with. our devices, this high-tech device that. plugs us in everywhere, >> [snorts]. >> our brains are getting fed real-time, on-the-ground information. And so, while. all of this has evolved, technology now. with AI chatbots, your amygdala has not, and so it feels like when something is. happening, whether it's far away or. close by, your amygdala has that same. reaction. Now, if you were to not engage. in revenge bedtime procrastination, put. your phone away and just kind of hang.

out, maybe drink a cup of herbal tea, like old school, uh play a board game or. something, you might, you know, or just. allow yourself to get bored, that. hyperactivation, hypervigilance, you. might be able to come back down to. baseline, that default mode network will. start working in the background, you. might develop a greater sense of meaning. and purpose. >> and then life's going to happen to me. again, and boom, I'm back into it. And, you know, >> [laughter]. >> You could create a practice, a cultivate. a practice in your. >> here interviewing neuroscientists, and.

and I go, if I still can't crack it, and. I have all the information and advice. and hacks and tips and tricks and. resources, and I could, you know, I can. decide what time I wake up, like I've. got all these this like privilege, and I. can't crack it, I go, you know, it's. going to be really difficult. >> So, let me offer a way of thinking about. this. So in my first book, The Happiness. Hypothesis, um there's I there's a metaphor in. there. It's It's about 10 ancient ideas. and I use a lot of metaphors to explain. ancient ideas about psychology and what. whether they're true. And um the first chapter is on how the.

mind is divided into parts that often. conflict, like a small rider, which is. our conscious reasoning, on a very large. elephant, which is all the automatic. processes that happen that we don't see. what's happening, we just see we just. feel the results, intuition, and emotion. And psychotherapists tell me this is. incredibly helpful metaphor with their. with their patients because it explains. and there's a a quote from Ovid in. there, I see the right way and approve. it, alas, I follow the wrong. So I know.

I should go to bed, as you say, but yet. for some reason I'm not going to bed. because our brains are 500 million years. old, they work on automatic processes, they're animal brains, and then very. recently we got language and we can. reason things out, but the but the parts. that do reasoning don't control. behavior. And so really the elephant is. what largely guides our behavior, our. automatic processes. And your phone, um as I said before, B.F. Skinner is in your phone, your. phone is a behaviors training device. that trains the elephant, um and that's.

why you often do things with your phone. that you don't want to do. And so and. this is why I'm so insistent that we all. have to get all of the slot machine apps. off of our phone. That is, the original. iPhone was an amazing tool, it was a. Swiss Army knife, it had, you know, a a. telephone, a browser, maps, a music. player, there was a flashlight, okay? There was no App Store, there were no. push notifications, 2007, 2008, it's. just a Swiss Army knife. There's no.

problem, okay? Now, I'm very lucky in. that my iPhone has always stayed that. I'm always on a computer, so my problem. my attention problems are on my. computer, but my phone, because I never. had any addictive apps on it, except. during the crypto craze, where I played. around with it and I got hooked, and I. was checking 50 times a day, and I saw. the addiction. So, I once I got rid of. that and lost all the money that I was. willing to lose, once I get rid of that, my phone has no. addictive power over me, cuz when I see. it, there's no it's not a slot machine.

going, "Hey, come back and play. Come. back and play.". >> So, your phone right now, on your. personal device, you don't have any. social media apps or. >> I do have Twitter, but I never check it. there. I never use use that on the. phone. You know, now texting and email. is a little bit like a slot machine, cuz. sometimes you But, it's very mild. So, this is again what I This is what works. for my students. Just get the slot. machine apps off your phone, and then. you'll find that then you could even. have your phone near you when you go to. bed. But, if you've got addictive apps on.

your phone, you can't have it when you. go to bed. Angela Duckworth, the woman. who who gave us the concept of grit, she. has this amazing graduation speech at. one of the schools in New England, and. she says something like, "Where you put. your phone at night will maybe become. the most important decision you make in. your life." And what she means by that. is not that same It's It's It's. If you can use behavioral control and. change the stimuli, if you can do that, then you're going to be okay. But, if. not, the phone is going to take your. attention, you're not going to amount to. anything.

>> All I had to do was brain dump. Imagine. if you had someone with you all times. that could take the ideas you have in. your head, synthesize them with AI to. make them sound better and more. grammatically correct, and write them. down for you. This is exactly what. WhisperFlow is in my life. It is this. thought partner that helps me explain. what I want to say, and it now means. that on the go, when I'm alone in my. office, when I'm out and about, I can. respond to emails and Slack messages and. WhatsApps and everything across all of. my devices just by speaking. I love this.

tool, and I started talking about this. in my behind-the-scenes channel a couple. of months back, and then the founder. reached out to me and said, "We're. seeing a lot of people come to our tool. because of you, so we'd love to be a. sponsor. We'd love you to be an investor. in the company. And so, I signed up for. both of those offers, and I'm now an. investor and a huge partner in a company. called WhisperFlow. You have to check it. out. WhisperFlow is four times faster. than typing. So, if you want to give it. a try, head over to whisperflow.ai/doac. to get started for free. And you can. find that link to WhisperFlow in the. description below.

We asked our audience how many of them. thought they were addicted to their. phone, and. roughly 85% of respondents, the Diary of. a CEO audience, described themselves as. being very or completely addicted to. their phone. >> or completely? That's surprising. I. didn't realize it would be that high. >> So, you can do a test. So, for people. listening, if you want to say like how. addicted And then, by the way, we're. using the word addiction very loosely in. our conversation. And so, what we're. really talking about, cuz you know, there is in terms of, you know, medical, clinical syndrome,

um when you think about addiction, there's certain criteria. And so, what. we're talking about is overuse. So, over-reliance on your devices, right? >> Compulsive overuse that interferes with. other domains of life. >> Yes, it interferes. >> isn't addiction, I don't know what is. >> And so, when you're thinking about, am I. addicted to my phone? Do I have Am I, you know, really What the very simple. thing that you can do. I did it myself, and I was like, I know, again, like you, Steven, like. know all the science, still was really. difficult. You have all the access, and. it was still difficult. And so, all you have to do is you just.

take your phone, you put it in another. part of your house or apartment or. whatever, and give yourself a couple of. hours when you know you're going to be. home or, you know, you're not reliant on. your phone for work or whatever. An. hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, and just have a. piece of paper, old school, piece of. paper and a pen with you. And every time. you feel that compulsion of like, I want. to check my device, you make a mark. You. make a mark. You make a mark. And just. to see, cuz some people say, "I'm. surprised that your audience said 85%,". because most people would say, "I don't. know if I'm really addicted." And so, I. like that there's that sense of.

self-awareness. But if you're thinking, "Nah, I'm not really that addicted." You. breathe in an hour 960 times a minute, and you may notice that you want to have. that that compulsion to check 960 times. a minute or, you know, thereabouts. because we all have that sense of. reliance on our devices. So, that's like. a really quick way that you can check to. see, "Am I relying on my device?". >> Are you addicted to your phone under. that definition? >> Because of the line of work that I am. in, I can very quickly I have certain.

tells when I know, I call them the. canary in the coal mine, right? I think. we talked about this the last time I was. here. I can very quickly tell when I'm. starting to get that feeling of. addiction or compulsion, and so I course. correct early. But, that's only because. I know the science, and I course. correct. >> I'm definitely addicted. >> I keep my phone outside I I walk the. talk. I keep my phone outside my. bedroom. It is not within arm's reach. I. grayscale my phone during periods of. deep focus during the day when I have a. deadline I have to get things done. And.

at night so I avoid revenge bedtime. procrastination. But, sometimes it. happens. Like, I'm a human, you know? So, this past week, um. not to be a real downer, but there've. been things that have been in the media. the past week that have been really. challenging, especially as a woman. And. so, I have found myself with the primal. urge to scroll. My amygdala has been. triggered. I have been going down rabbit. holes, and I wouldn't ordinarily do. that. So, I give myself grace, too, and. have a sense of self-compassion. Do you feel like you're addicted to your. phone? >> No, I'm not at all addicted to my phone.

Uh cuz I don't have any slot machine. apps on it. But, I really want to. question you made a distinction that. many scientists do, which is, "Well, you know, we we can't quite say it's. addiction because, you know, addiction. is certain biochemical pathways based. on, you know, heroin and addictive. substances.". Uh but, I believe that this is one of. the meta talking points that they that. they are able to push that we can't call. it addiction. It's different. >> not. >> No, I don't mean. >> [laughter]. >> I'm sorry. I don't mean I'm sorry. I I. know what I look, you know, you and I. are total allies on this. We see the. problem. We're both I All I mean is, you.

know, we're we're supposed to be very. careful about using the word addiction. But, and you had Anna Lembke on, and she. was very clear, like in her practices it. now it's overwhelmingly digital. addictions. It's all of this is working. through dopamine. If you feel compulsive. use, definitely dopamine. So, it's most. of the same brain centers as it is for. heroin or crack or any other drug. Um. and it's the same effects. That is, the. it's it's compulsive use where you don't. want to do what you want to change, but. yet you find yourself doing it, and you. have withdrawal effects. Uh and people.

and people have terrible withdrawal. effects when they're heavy users of. these things and they stop. And so, you. know, if it walks like a duck and talks. like a duck and swims like a duck, I'm. going to call it a duck. In fact, that's. what they call it. So, I just want to. read one more quote. Again, the quotes. are just so astonishing. Some meta meta. researchers So, one of them says, quote, "It seems clear from what's presented. here in this internal study. uh that some of our users are addicted. to our products." That's their word, addicted to our products. "And I worry.

that driving sessions incentivizes us to. make our products more addictive without. providing much more value. How to keep. someone returning over and over to the. same behavior each day? Intermittent. rewards are most effective, think slot. machines, reinforcing behaviors that. become especially hard to extinguish. even when they provide little reward or. cease providing reward at all.". People, I mean, it just imagine an. industry that has caused 85% of people. to feel that they're addicted.

>> And not calling it addiction. >> And not calling it addiction. And these. people these. these people are having their lives. diminished, their relationships. diminished. So, what I'm trying to. convey is, we're seeing the destruction. of human capital, the destruction of. human potential, the destruction of. human relationships, the destruction of. connection, the destruction of sense of. meaning. at a scale so vast I don't think people. are capable of comprehending it. I now. believe this is affecting most human. beings. These industries, these few.

companies have damaged the lives of most. human beings. We don't have good data. from the developing world, but certainly. the developed world where ever kids are. going through puberty on on touch. screens. You you you you have this constant. fighting over the over the over the. screens over the technology and you have. these diminishing outcomes, diminishing. cognition, diminishing sense of of. purpose in life. >> Only to get worse with the AI chat. >> comes in it's going to get worse unless. we act so we've got to change course in. 2026. We don't have 5 years to study it.

We've got to stop this now in 2026. >> Are you concerned at all about the way. education's going for children because. >> Oh my god, yes. >> that. >> EdTech is EdTech is, you know, Big Tech. in a sweater as they say. >> Because I was almost imagining a future. where my future kids are going to learn. their curriculum from an AI chatbot. because I can imagine the case cheaper. more personalized more convenient It's. going to know my if my son's called. Timmy it's going to know Timmy's brain.

and it's going to know how to make him. pay attention and what he's interested. in and what he's not. So are you. concerned about this or is this a good. thing? >> There is definitely a use case for. EdTech. If there could be a device that. only did math tutoring or only did. tutoring and you couldn't watch videos. on it. I'm totally open to believing. that that can speed up teaching. But. here's what's happened. We put computers on everyone's desks. around 2014-2015. We used to think in America that it was. an equity issue even back to the 90s.

The rich kids all have computers, the. poor kids don't. Let's get. philanthropists to buy computers for. school districts that every kid can have. a computer on their desk. Okay, now what. is a computer? It's a play device. It. does everything. Kids use it at home. They And you know, they watch videos, they do all sorts of things. You put it. on their desk and you tell them to do. math homework, what happens? It's mostly. short videos. That's what research is. showing. It ends up because they don't. you know, they always they don't block. YouTube. They might say, "Oh, we block. porn, we block video games." They can. get around all that. And if you're. letting them do YouTube, it's YouTube.

shorts, which is TikTok. So, what. happened to test scores in the United. States? From the '70s through 2012, they. were rising. We actually were improving. what kids knew, what kids learned in the. United States. We have very good data, the national the NAEP National. Assessment of Educational Progress. Goes. up till 2012. And then by 2015, it starts going down. and it's going down before COVID. And it. goes down more during COVID. And. everyone thinks like, "Oh, it's COVID.". But it started like the peak was 2012. And what's happening, what we now can.

see. is that the top students, the very best. students, who are the ones with. executive function, they're the ones who. can pay attention. If you put a computer. on that kid's desk, he's not destroyed. by it. He can actually still learn. But. the bottom 50% cannot. The bot So, all. of the drop in educational stats is the. bottom 50%. The bottom 50% in terms of. capacity to pay attention, their. education is being devastated. And. that's what happened when we put laptops. and we put Chromebooks and iPads on. their desks. Um we spend hundreds of billions of. dollars on this stuff.

And it has damaged education. And if. we'd spent a quarter of that on. teachers, we would be in such better. shape today. So, we made a colossal. blunder with EdTech in the 2010s. And. now we're about to do the same thing. again with AI. Again, maybe there are. apps, maybe there are applications that. would be great, but we've got to put the. burden of proof on Silicon Valley. We've. got to say, "You guys have to prove that. this stuff is effective and safe before. we'll let it in. We are not going to let. you just say, 'Hey, let's just flood the. zone. Let's give it to everybody and.

then we'll wait 10 years and see what. happens.'". >> I mean, that brings brings up this um. this study that I have in front of me. here, which was a 2022 study, a Munich study which tested the idea of. brain rot, which um I believe was the. Oxford dictionary word of the year 2024. And 2024. And what they did is they gave 60. participants a task, then a 10-minute. break, and then another task. During the. break, they either rested or used Tik. Tok, Twitter, or YouTube. And the. results showed the following. The Tik.

Tok group, so they. had a 10-minute interval to do anything, and this group got Tik Tok to look at. Their memory accuracy dropped from 80%. before the break to 49% after the break, a nearly 40% decline just from a. 10-minute break. In contrast, the. Twitter and YouTube groups showed no. significant change in the Munich study. And there's an image I'll throw up on. the screen. Results from the Munich study showed a. 40% drop in prospective memory accuracy. in the Tik Tok group after a 10-minute. break, which is unbelievable. It's.

unbelievable. What the hell is going on. there? How can a 10-minute Tik Tok break. drop my memory accuracy by 40%? >> Tik Tok is brain rot. >> Well, what's going on? >> There's so much going on in the brain. So, you know, when you're thinking about. Here's the thing. Brain breaks are not. nice-to-haves, they're actually. essential for your brain. And so, we. talked a little bit about that, you. know, default mode network and what. happens to it. When you're engaging with. your devices, and you know, that's not a.

brain break. That's activating all of. the aspects, so it's activating your. amygdala. It's dampening or decreasing. the volume of your prefrontal cortex. It's creating that reward system, the. dopamine hit, those addictive behaviors. So, it's only, you know, when you're. thinking about memory, planning. What. was the metric here? It was memory, right? That was the the the metric that. they were using to study. And so, when. you're thinking about working memory or. um cognitive function, complex. problem-solving, this is all prefrontal. cortex. And so, when you're engaging.

with Tik Tok, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, whatever it is, you are dialing down. that biology in your brain. And so, of. course you're going to see changes, and. you're going to see the flip side, increased hyper-vigilance, irritability, distractibility, fragmented attention. It's just Again, this is not to say that. this whole conversation, right? Or when. you're reading studies, you might say to. yourself, "What's wrong with me? You. know, is there something wrong with me? Am Is my brain broken? Am I weak?" It is.

not you. You are not alone. It is not. your fault. It is the biology of your. brain doing exactly as it should. So, we. talked about the amygdala and prefrontal. cortex here. Your amygdala is not wrong. or broken. It's by design, supposed to. think about your immediate needs, survival, self-preservation. And so, when you're on the algorithm, we know, we talked about, you know, certain um or. maybe we didn't talk about it, certain. content that you see on TikTok and. others. that is when it's reactionary, you know,

words like FOMO or rage bait. These are. not neutral terms. When you're engaging. with these uh social media platforms, it's not something neutral. It's not. passive. It is an active biological. process in your brain. So, this study, it's not surprising. It is actually. exactly what you would expect uh to. happen to your biology if you had this. sort of what we call in medicine and. this kind of intervention. It's. stimulating exactly what it's supposed. to do. >> Yeah. I'll just I'll just add on to what. Edie said, that there are some There are.

many medical conditions where you can't. just go to the patient and say, "Why do. you think you got this cancer?" "Oh, I. you know, I think it's cuz I ate a lot. of, you know, chocolate when I was. whatever." You know, there when when the. when the the act is separated from the. effect by 30 years, then you don't. expect the patients to have insight into. the cause of it. But when the outcome is. separated from the input by seconds, and. you have literally millions of chances. to observe the covariation,

the patient is really, really accurate. In fact, the patient really knows what's. going on. And so, I think the deciding factor here. on this big debate about, "Oh, is it. just correlation or is it causation?" Um. the deciding factor for social media and. for a lot of these tech innovations, including video games and gambling and. all of that, should really be the kids. And if the kids say, "This is bad for. me," we should take their word for it. Given that we also have correlational. studies, random control trials, uh. longitudinal studies, natural I mean, we.

have so much other data. But given that. the kids themselves, they call it brain. rot. They call the material brain rot. Um my students tell me it's a huge. obstacle to them doing their homework. As one of them said, "I pull out a book, I read a sentence, I get bored, I go to. TikTok.". You know, so if they're telling us that. this is damaging their ability to pay. attention, they feel it, they feel the. loss, we all feel it. Well, many of us. have noticed this. Um. um then I think this is pretty decisive. evidence that this stuff is bad for. cognition.

>> And it has long-term consequences. So, it's not just that in the moment, right? So, there was this case that was all. over the media, a college student. I'm. sure you're familiar with the case, and. this young woman was on TikTok, experiencing brain rot, and then some. TikTok algorithm took her down to this. place of, you know, you should take an. edible. It'll help you. >> Okay. Oh, wow. >> So, you can go to. >> prescribing drugs. Wow. >> And you could go to class, and you. could, you know, be more alert. And so, she did that. And then it continued on.

and on, and then she developed a. dependence on edibles. And then checked. into rehab. And only when she focused on analog. activities, like guitar playing and a. couple of other things that she started. doing, is when, and you know, removing the stimulus, the the TikTok um. algorithm, is when she started to. improve. So, it's not just in the. moment, "Oh, I can't remember. something," or "I'm more irritable.". These sorts of things compound and the. long-term sequelae or the long-term.

effects can be quite damaging. That's. just one example. >> In your book Anxious Generation, Jonathan, you the subtitle here is how. the great re-wiring of childhood is. causing an epidemic of mental illness. >> Mhm. >> I was looking at some of these graphs of. different sort of mental illness. illnesses and um they're increasing. One. of them that's increasing is ADHD. >> Mhm. >> I was diagnosed with ADHD. um maybe about a year ago. And when we're talking about short.

attention spans, I mean. the name attention deficit hyperactivity. disorder, I believe that's what it's. called, sounds a lot like what we're talking. about. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Is there a link, do you believe, between the increase in. diagnoses of of ADHD and the sort of. frying of our brains with short-form. video and social media? >> Mhm. Yeah, [clears throat] I I mean, I. suspect that there is, but here's here's. what I can tell you I learned about. writing the book. Um I looked to see if. there were studies indicating that uh. heavy use of of social media and video.

games and all the electronic stuff. caused ADHD. And when I was doing the. research in 2023, I did not find. evidence that it will give a kid HD ADHD. who otherwise wouldn't have it. What I. did find was evidence that for kids who. have ADHD, when you let them have the. devices, the video games, all that, their symptoms get much worse. And so, because it is a major. achievement of young adulthood to be. able to pay attention, to develop what. we've been calling executive function, to be able to make a plan and decide, oh, to reach the plan, I have to do.

this, when then I do this, and then it. might be a long time before I get here, but I will keep going and I'll keep my. eye on the prize. That I I assume that's you're saying. it's a little harder for you to do that. I mean, that's what ADHD means. How do. you experience ADHD? >> Well, well, hm, >> [clears throat]. >> I def I mean, if I think about school, I. couldn't pay attention in school for for. for very long and that meant that I was. always in ex-. the expulsion room and then I was. expelled and then that's kind of it's I. feel like it's got worse as an adult and.

from my in my opinion my relationship. with my phone has made it much worse. Where really I can't I can't pay. attention to to many things for a very. long time. The exception to this is I. can do. deep work. for many many hours without moving. It. is almost a bit of a condition. >> extremely motivated I assume. >> When I'm extremely. >> When you're really into it you can be. into it. That's right. But a lot of work. isn't that. A lot of being effective in. the workplace is not you're following. your passion. Right, ADHD kids they can.

zoom in because they're getting the. dopamine. They're getting the dopamine. from this thing. But a lot of work isn't. like that. And these kids are not going. to be able to do that. So actually what. you said it fits perfectly with what. what I found from those Dutch studies. If you did have whether it's a genetic. or whatever the predisposition is the. this environment has made your symptoms. worse. Now of course ADHD kids can be. kind of they'll be creative. They are. often very very successful. But my fear. is that the pathways to success that. they used to take might be blocked if. they basically are just scrolling all.

day long and not able to pay not able to. have real life experiences. >> And relationships are like that. especially romantic ones. >> It's an interesting thing that you bring. up Steven because there is an increase. in adult onset. you know when adults are diagnosed with. ADHD because typically we think of ADHD. as a pediatric condition or young adults. and so increasingly we're seeing more. and more adults who are in their 30s and. 40s 50s sometimes even 60s who are being. diagnosed newly diagnosed with ADHD. And. so that's an interesting there's so many.

you know reasons like it might be that. they had it all along and they were. diagnosed and so what is going on there? That would be. a future podcast episode for an ADHD. ADHD expert of you know what are the. drivers of why are so many adults being. diagnosed with ADHD? >> Or maybe even just the symptoms looking. very similar. >> Mhm. >> Um. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You talk about popcorn brain, Aditi. >> Yeah. So, you know, we've talked about brain. rot and the primal urge to scroll, and. popcorn brain is kind of an offshoot.

It's part of the same family. And so, what happens is it's a term coined by a. man a psychologist named David Levy. And what happens with popcorn brain is. that you. and we all have it. And so, what it is a. societal phenomena when you spend too. much time online and you are. overstimulated. And so, it is hard for. you to spend time offline. Offline feels. slow, boring, cuz things are moving at a. much slower pace. And so, popcorn brain. is the sensation of your brain popping. It is not actively popping. It's not.

like your brain cells are popping, but. it sure feels like it. And so, your. primal urge to scroll kind of primes. your brain to develop popcorn brain. You. are more at risk for developing popcorn. brain when you feel a sense of stress. because of that primal urge to scroll. The differentiator between brain rot and. popcorn brain. Again, these are societal. terms that we're calling for a. constellation or a group of symptoms, right? And so, the difference to me is. that popcorn brain is ubiquitous. It's. everywhere. It's like we all have it and.

it's happening all all the time because. of the modern age and a lot of the. things that we talked about. Brain rot. is a little bit more specific. It's a. little bit more well-defined. So, it has. certain features like we call it the. biosocial. model when you're thinking about a. particular medical or condition or an. entity. So, what are the biological. factors? We talked about what defines. brain rot. It's, you know, a change in. brain waves, a change in brain regions, the amygdala lighting up, and the. prefrontal cortex kind of being quiet.

Um psychological factors we talked about. attention, um co- complex. problem-solving, impulse control, and. then the social factors, loneliness and. others. So, um compulsion. And so, I. would say popcorn brain is something. that we all suffer from. And, you know, brain rot is something that is very. specific. The other thing that we. haven't talked about that I would love. to kind of. because so much of our conversation is. like doom and gloom, right? It's like, "Wah, wah, wah." Um, one thing that I. would like to say is that as bad as at.

when you hear the term brain rot, it. seems permanent. Cuz rot it connotes. like deterioration. That's it. It's one. sided is one way and that's it. But in. fact, popcorn brain and brain rot are. reversible conditions. So, it is not. >> in adults. >> If you've gone through puberty with it, it's not so clear. >> Yes, in adults. And my work focuses on. adults. And so, when you have if you. experience brain rot in your 30s, 40s, and beyond, you can It takes time. You know, it.

takes 8 weeks for your brain to rewire. itself. Give yourself time. A sense of. self-compassion is really important. But you can, you know, there is a sense. of it being able to be reversed. So, it's not so much a brain It's not a. fixed trait, but rather a brain state. So, I think it's important to offer that. hope. >> brain? What age is an adult brain? Like, what age does my brain stop growing in. in the way where it's reversible? >> So, >> Yeah, I mean, you know, traditionally it. was thought that, uh, you know, puberty. is the period of super rapid brain.

change and that begins, you know, early. early teens, sometimes even before 10. And is mostly over by sort of, you know, mid mid to late teens. But then the. prefrontal cortex, which Kitty was. talking about, which is so important for. impulse control and and executive. function, that doesn't finish. myelinating. Myelin is when you the sort. of the the neuron thing that you get a. sort of a fatty sheath, like an. insulation that sort of locks down the. circuits and makes them more efficient. Um, that doesn't stop until around age. 25 is what we've always said for many. years. But you're telling me that. there's new research showing that.

>> Yeah. >> Tell Tell us about that. >> So, you know, all this time, right? We've always said that the prefrontal. cortex is fully formed and fully. functional at age of 25. And so when. you're talking about impulse control and. all of this stuff, but there was this. really interesting study. I'll send it. to you. It looked at I think it was. 1,000 people. from age zero, so birth all the way to. 90. So the entire. population and it found five. looked at lifespan and said there are. actually five stages. So first is. childhood up zero to age nine. During.

this time your brain is not very. efficient, but it's really growing and. you know, it's it's growing and. changing, but it's not really efficient. 9 to 32 is considered adolescence. And. so, you know, 32 is when adolescence. ends apparently according to the study. >> be sort of glad I mean you're most of. the way done by 25, but you but there's. still some there's some flexibility even. after that. >> And then the next stage is from 33 to I. think 63.

66 is like adulthood. Things are very stable. Learning is. stable and you know, it's efficient and it's. things are doing well. And then. >> We're productive. >> 60 Yeah, 66 to about 83 is early aging. And so that's when you see some of the. age-related changes. And then 83 plus is. late aging. So that that kind of main. finding was that, you know, it was all. over the news. It was like adolescence. goes until 32.

>> So I'm 33, so I'm in. >> One YEAR ONE YEAR OUT. >> I'M CRUSHED. >> BY NOW. >> [laughter]. >> YEAH. >> When you wrote this book Jonathan, The. Anxious Generation, it. it's had a big impact on the world in a. way that I think any author might dream. of. And I know this in part because, you. know, I sit on this podcast interviewing. really interesting people all the time. And even this morning when I did an. interview across town with James Sexton, he talked about this book twice. And you. know, laws have been changed around the. world inspired by this book. And we're. actually seeing an increase of laws in.

the UK. I mean Australia just banned I. think social media for people under 16. >> You met with Macron, >> Mhm. >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Could you ever have imagined, and. actually what does the success of this. book say. >> Yeah. >> about society? >> No, thank you for that question. Cuz, you know, I I do tend to get, you know, as you've heard, I mean, I'm extremely. alarmed about these trends, and these. are gigantic threats beyond what anyone. can imagine. But, here's the amazing thing is that we. can reverse this.

for almost no money, and it's completely. bipartisan, and it's not that hard to do. Um and. we're doing it. And so, what happened. was, you know, I wrote the book as an. American assuming that we don't have a. functioning legislature, the Congress. can be stopped, we have a vetocracy, the. social media companies can stop anything. in the house. So, I wrote this assuming, you know, we'll never get legislation. Um so, we have to do this on our own. And I proposed four norms: no smartphone. before high school, no social media. before 16, phone-free schools, and far. more independence for play.

responsibility in the real world. instead. Four norms, we can try to do. this with collective action locally at. the school level. Two things that surprised me. >> [clears throat]. >> One, are that immediately. governors from red states and blue. states started reaching out to me. Our. states actually function. Our states. have governments that are accountable to. the people that are trying to get good. results. And so, this has been a totally. bipartisan issue. Sarah Huckabee Sanders. from Arkansas was one of the very first, Kathy Hochul also. And it is it tends to. be more female legislators and governors. or spouses of heads of state. I did The.

moms The book really spoke to moms. because moms around the world, they felt. the kids being pulled away. I believe. they felt it viscerally more than the. dads did. Also, the dads kind of like. the video games, they're a little more. pro-tech. So, I think the moms felt the. pain more and took it more personally. So, when the book came out, mothers. around the world jumped into action, formed groups, pushed for legislation, and changes began happening. What I just. I just I was just I was in Davos and. then London and Brussels two weeks ago. And.

what I saw was a complete sea change in. the world's thinking about how we need. to have age limits on social media and. other tech. And here's what I think just. happened. It's so It's so cool. It just. dawned on me literally while I was in. London like. I was pushing on open doors everywhere. Wherever I went, people wanted to do. this. I went to the EU, they want to do. this. Like, what is happening? And what I realized is this. Steven Pinker has a book out last year. called When Everyone Knows That Everyone. Knows. It's about the immediate change in a. social system when private knowledge,

you know, everybody knows that the. emperor has no clothes. Everybody knows. that this, you know, ideology doesn't. work. Everybody knows that, but they. don't all know that everybody else knows. it and that everybody else knows that. And so in The Emperor's New Clothes, everybody thought he's I I don't think. he has any clothes on, but maybe, you. know, maybe only wise people can see it. But when the child says, "The emperor. has no clothes." And then in the Hans. Christian Andersen story it says, "And. the people began whispering to each.

other." And then they all cried out in. unison. And that's what happened when. Australia's law went into effect. So I. believe that uh December 10th of last. December was the global turning point in. the battle to reclaim childhood. And if. we reclaim that, we move on to our. attention and adult life as well. What. happened on on December 10th, the. Australia law went into effect. Sky. didn't fall. People weren't locked out. of their accounts. All the companies complied. They shut. down 5 million uh accounts for.

Australia's 3 and 1/2 million kids that. were underage. Uh 2 and 1/2 million. kids. The sky didn't fall. And there was a lot. of news coverage around the world of. what Australia was doing. And a lot of. the news coverage included opinions from. the writers saying, "Why can't we do. that? Hey, let's do that here.". And when everybody saw that everybody. was looking at Australia and saying, "Let's do that here." then everybody. knew that everybody knew that this is. just completely bonkers to have children. being raised on social media platforms. talking with anonymous strangers and.

being fed algorithm algorithmically. curated garbage. So, I believe that. that's why 2026 is going to be the year. when at least 15 countries are going to. commit to passing an age minimal law. In. 2025 there's one, Australia. And now we. already have Indonesia, their law goes. into effect in March. Uh I met with. Macron in in Davos and a a few days he. was preparing to push a bill through the. assembly and he got it. He's the first. in the EU, but a lot of other countries. in the EU are going to follow. The whole.

EU is likely to do it. Um so so yes, I. am incredibly alarmed about how big this. problem is, but I'm incredibly inspired. that the whole world is rising up to do. something about it. We actually can. control our fate and that was not clear. before December 10th. >> Bravo. As a mother, that was the first. [laughter] thing I said to you. First. thing I said to you was thank you as a. mom for changing my family's life. >> Thank you, Edie.

>> It's a really special accomplishment, Jonathan. You know, I could there's no real words. that I could say that could quite. capture. the long-term impact that that's going. to have on. billions of people's lives. And not just. the direct, but also the indirect. in all the ways we've described. Their. ability to form connections, to fall in. love, to find meaning and purpose in. their lives and their neuroscience and. therefore, you know, the neuroscience of. their. their children and their children's.

children and so on. So, it's a really. it's a really overwhelming. accomplishment. >> [laughter]. >> It It was a bizarre situation that I. walked into with the unique abilities of. a social psychologist. That is, everybody was upset about this. Everybody could see it, but they. thought, "Well, is my problem." Or, "In. my family, we have this problem.". And. um and I came to this with fresh eyes. My dissertation was on moral. development. I'd studied adolescent. behavior longer ago in my career, and. I've written about it in my book. So, it. wasn't totally new to me. But, I came.

into the field of social media studies. around 2018, 2019. I really immersed. myself in it. And it was like, you know, you walk in and immediately you see, "Wait, this is a trap." People are on it. because people are on it. And the kids. are complaining about the Everyone's. complaining about it. And the only. reason they can't get off is because. everyone else is on it. So, I think I. was able to see that. And then also, COVID confused us for a few years. So, it wasn't until COVID was in the. rearview mirror that it was possible for. everybody to say, "Wait, this is crazy.".

And so, I was incredibly lucky in terms. of the timing. My book happened to come. out in March of 2024 just as the world. was ready to see like, "Wait, what have. we done to our kids? Let's undo it.". >> And you said you're now focusing more on. short-form video. >> So, yes. So, in studying older Gen Z, these are the. people who went through puberty on. Instagram. I should If I could just lay out that. it's very important to get the timing to. that everyone understands the timing cuz. this is what You mentioned the. polycrisis before. The polycrisis, I. believe, begins between 2010 and 2015.

Here's why. So, we've had the internet for a long. time. And it was marvelous. We loved the. internet in the '90s. It's going to be. the best friend of democracy. Okay? And. then the iPhone comes out. It's amazing. Oh my god, this does so many things. Everything seems great. Okay. So, in. 2010, most of almost all of us have flip. phones. The iPhone's spreading, but it's. still mostly flip phones. Teens are all. on flip phones, basic phones. And we. call those people millennials. If you. finished puberty by 20 If you If you. were born in, say, 1990, and you start.

puberty in 2002, you're done by 2008. So, you know, in there. If you got through puberty before you. got on Instagram, you're a millennial. Whereas, if you're born, say, what. You're you're after 1995, but let's say. if you're born in the year 2000, you begin puberty in 2012. And you're not done until 2016, 2018. So, in 2010, everyone has a flip phone. with no front-facing camera, no. high-speed internet, you have to pay for. your texts, so you use it to call people.

and to text them, and that's it. It was. a communication device, and that's why. the millennials have good mental health. They are the last mentally healthy and. successful generation. But if you're Gen Z, you got 2012 is the year that now most. people now have a smartphone. It's the year that Facebook buys. Instagram. They don't change it at. first, but that's the year that all the. girls go on it. Um everyone now has. high-speed data, front-facing camera, came out in 2010. So, by 2015, we're in.

a radically different world. For. children's development, it's now. radically different, much more hostile. to human development, and that's what we. did to Gen Z and now we're doing to Gen. Alpha. For politics, it was, you know, it was. crazy for all sorts of reasons in every. decade, and especially, you know, the in. the early 2000s, there's a lot there's a. culture war going on, there's all kinds. of stuff going on. But it was when it. was when everyone has, really Twitter. was the biggest perpetrator of this, when everyone has Twitter and everyone's. checking all the time and anything can. blow up, you know, you described the way.

there was, you know, variance in in on. TikTok. Um if you get it just right, it. can blow up, you can have huge impact. That's when the democracy if democracy. is a conversation, when it moved from. newspapers and, you know, even simple. web bulletin boards, when it moved to. super viral retweet buttons, all of. that, that's all 2010 to 2015. So, that's why since then, everything. has been insane, and it's going to just. keep getting more insane. And that's why. I believe we have this polycrisis,

because it it and now there's more to. it, it's not just the technology, but I. believe the transformation of our our. connection and our information flow and. our addiction, all of that is radically. different by 2015 compared to how it was. in 2010. And now everything else builds on top of. that, I believe. What What do you think? Do you think that makes sense? >> one more data point to add and that 2014. was the year that things really it was. the tipping point, like you said. >> that's Yes, that's the year that I point. to, too. Yes. >> Yeah, so before. >> do you point to? What What makes you.

think 2014. >> data, you see that time spent alone, when you compare when you look at data. from like the 1960s to 2014, >> Mhm. >> there it was kind of stable. Americans. spending time alone, spending time with. friends. >> Yeah. >> Kind of the same, right? So people spent. kind of same amount of time with. friends, same amount of time alone over. those decades. 2014 marks a shift and there is a steep. rise in time spent alone and a drop in.

time spent with friends. And so what. happens in 2014? It is when the majority of Americans get. a smartphone. And it's not to say, again, we've said, you know, causality, correlation, which. is it? But there is like, based on. everything that we've talked about, my. gosh, is there an association between. that? This is not to say that time spent. alone, you know, when I share this data, people may say, you know, but I like. spending time alone. I'm not lonely. I'm. okay. This is not about being an. introvert or an extrovert. It's not.

about, you know, you can have solitude. and feel great and you're not lonely. But we are human beings and we are. social creatures. This is just how we. are built evolutionarily. And so that is. a real. red flag when you have this. big jump in time spent alone, very much. the same year. And so my work focuses on. adults, Jonathan, on kids, but there's. this, you know, that's the moment, right? 2014, where everything changed.

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over to pipedrive.com/ceo, where you can get a 30-day free trial, no credit card or payment required. So, what do we do about this? Because when I look at all the stats and. we did all these audience surveys ahead. of this, people are spending roughly in. our audience about 6 and 1/2 hours a day. on their phones. Um short-form video is. only going to get more addictive. AI is. going to know me [clears throat] more, it's going to be more personalized. The. content is going to be generated just. for me. >> Yeah. >> What what am I What what's next? Is it a.

law we need to pass? Is it something I. need to do myself? >> Mhm. So, we I think we need to pick the. low-hanging fruit first, and the reason. for that is not just efficiency, it's. that we have to prove that we can. actually do something cuz we've never. done anything. We've never done anything. to restrain this. We've let Silicon. Valley run wild. Congress gave them. special protection, Section 230, nobody. can sue them for killing their kids if. they if they feed them content, you. know, they can't be held responsible. >> I think Section 230's probably something. worth explaining. >> Sure. Set the Communications Decency Act. of 1997, I think it was, plus or minus a.

year. Uh there's a section in it that. the goal was to specifically let the. tech companies like AOL back then, you. know, let them take down pornographic. content cuz they were afraid if we take. down anything, then we're responsible. for everything, and now we're going to. it's going to be endless, we can you. know. So, Congress specifically said, "No, don't worry. Don't worry. You know, if you choose to take something down, nobody can sue you for you know, for. what you leave up." So, the it was a. good intention originally. But the. courts have interpreted so widely as to. say no one can regulate social media,

they're not responsible for hurting. kids, you can't sue them. And they have. never faced a jury. They have never No. parent has ever gotten justice from them. despite all the kids whose lives have. been ruined, all the kids who are dead. And that's going to change, that's. changing just now here in February in. Los Angeles. So, because. the US Congress sort of set up this. problem, and it also in a different law. said, "How old does a kid have to be before a. company can take their data. without their parents' knowledge or. permission? Before a company can expose. them to all kinds of stuff? Before a. company can have them sign away their.

rights? How old?" And the original law. said, "16. [clears throat] Let's try. 16." You know, cuz. you know, it wasn't so. sick and twisted back then, 1998, COPPA, the Children's Online Privacy Protection. Act. So, but various lobbying, they. pushed it down from 16 to 13, and they. gutted enforcement. So, as long as and. that's why all over the internet it's, "Are you 13?" Or "What's your birth. year?" And as long as you're 13, you're. in. For porn and you have to say you're. 18. So, because we the it's a few laws. that set this up, we definitely need.

laws to undo it, especially for kids. What I'm advocating is let's do the easy. stuff, the high-impact stuff for kids, because that is totally not politically. controversial. There is no left-right. divide on that. And that's been true. everywhere, Australia, Britain, the EU, everywhere. Regulating the internet for adults, regulating social media for its. destructive properties in democracy is a. hell of a lot harder. And I don't have. easy answers. There's a lot we could do. to reduce the virality, the spread of of. the cuz extreme con- So, there are lots.

of little things that we can do, and. Frances Haugen, the Facebook. whistleblower, had all kinds of ideas. So, we definitely can do things to make. it less toxic for democracy. But those are going to be politically. controversial, cuz one side is going to. benefit from more than the other. So, that's going to be very difficult to do. I don't know if we can do them in the. US. But let's just all do the Let's just. all protect the kids. That way we show. globally. that we actually can do something. And. if we do that, then I think we will be. able to do some basic things about AI, like no companion chatbots if you're.

under 18. You know, these things already. have a body count. A lot of kids have. been encouraged to kill themselves. They. already have driven million or hundreds. of thousands or millions of people into. psychosis. So, we'll be able to, I. believe, put some limits on uh on AI, especially for kids. But if we can't get. this, if we can't win on social media. for kids, then I don't think we have any. chance to regulate AI. It's going to be. much more difficult. What do you think? What do you think we should do and what. do you think we can do? >> So, my work as a doctor, I think about. what we can do and how I can empower.

people to first build awareness. So, you. know, I aim to first normalize and validate. the experience with everyone who is. engaging with chatbots. And so, I don't like to shame people because as. a doctor, right? Like you want you want. to meet the patient where they are. And. so, I won't shame someone to say, you. know, why are you using this um why is. your boyfriend AI? Or why are you. getting married to AI? Or why are you. using AI for a a therapist? One of my. followers on social media, it still.

makes me laugh. I put out a call saying, why are you using AI as your as a. therapist, you know? And so, someone. wrote to me. It was great. I. screenshotted. It said, "Because all. human therapists are trash." With a. trash can emoji. And it made me laugh. And I said, you know, So, there is So, to me, when I think about what's. happening and what we can do, it's no mistake that we're here right. now. So, the pandemic, like we've talked. about, was a huge driver. Social. isolation, uh. hyper-reliance on self, right? Then, the.

proliferation of technology that. replaced human interaction. Zoom board. meetings, Zoom funerals, Zoom birthday. parties, Zoom graduations. Things that. we did in person are now online. And. then, personally as a doctor, I was a talking. head during the pandemic for lots of. news channels about the vaccine. I have. a background in public health as well. It. immense distrust and mistrust in. establishment and experts. And so, it's.

like, I'm going to do my own research. I'm not going to go see a doctor or a. therapist. I'm going to talk to my. chatbot. And also, I mean, you know, let's keep it real, the cost, right? So, people are struggling. They're in. financial crises. It There's an unmet. need yes for human connection, but also. for good therapy or you know, good. medical care because there is such a. need because of the pandemic and people. aren't getting the care that they need, they deserve. There's so many factors. here and so.

what I've been focusing on this year. particularly is learning about AI. chatbots, how they are influencing. mental health, what is actually. happening cuz I'm a human first AI. second person and it's like my work. focuses on high touch and AI is high. tech and this is the first intervention. that we are seeing that is high tech. that is becoming high touch and that. scares me. >> And you're writing a book about that at. the moment, right? >> I am and so. >> What's it called? Brain? >> It's called Bot Brain, how to stay calm, resilient and human in the face of AI.

And so really thinking about how are we. going to be able to. live with this technology. I love. Jonathan Stance is to say out. AI companions done. >> yeah. >> For kids, yeah. >> Until proven safe. >> Totally agree, but in terms of adults, like how do we manage that for adults, you know? And so my work focuses right. now what I'm doing is I'm spending I've. been spend I've spent the year talking. to. every as many AI researchers who are. working on these models or who are doing.

research on the downstream effects of. these models. And when I say that it is dark and. dystopian, it has profoundly changed. something in me and it has influenced my. mental health. I had to take a step away. from just because I couldn't believe. what I was learning. >> Well, but could you just give me Yeah, give me some examples? [laughter]. >> Yeah, teaser, teaser. >> This is intriguing. >> So one I spoke to one of the scientists. who told me that um, you know, there's. the echo chamber phenomenon in social. media, right? Where we all know what. that is. It's like you you it's a.

fragmented fragmented world because of. social and you're engaging and then you. get the same the algorithm feeds you the. same kind of thoughts that you already. have. But particularly now with AI. chatbots, when you're engaging with your. chatbot, even just talking about it, I'm. getting chills, it's the echo chamber of. one. So it's you speaking to you. It's. like the funhouse mirror, and then it's. giving you a response, and then you're. talking and it's giving you a response. But people, regular users who are using. AI chatbots think that it's wise,

compassionate, non-judgmental, unbiased, empathetic, these human attributes. And. so. um you know, the echo chamber of one is. kind of one idea that really. frightened me. And the second one was. the drift phenomenon. The drift. phenomenon is this idea that you are. engaging with your chatbot and it's. engaging with you and it's um actively. changing your beliefs through the drift. So you might start off as one belief and. then you're talking and through this.

amplification funhouse mirror effect, it. slowly shifts your belief to something. altogether You've heard cases of it in. the news where people, you know, start. You have a flying problem. You go to. your AI chatbot, you ask them how to fix. your sink, and then you're like, "You. know what? Can you tell me about the. meaning of life?" And then you start. talking about that, and before you know. it, you have these theories and you're. getting that validation. And so a lot of. my work over the past year. has been um you know, digging into the. science of what is going on in the. brain, how are you forming, not us.

particularly at this table, but millions. of people are forming a sense of. attachment, a therapeutic connection. with their chatbot. They're um you know, giving names to it and it's an entity. And so how does that happen and how is. it going to replace human-to-human. connection? And so it terrifies me. I've. also gone through some AI therapy myself. just to see, you know, what what would. happen. It was very interesting. I knew. what was happening as it was happening.

So certain words that they used and you. know, I was like, "Ah, I see what you. did here.". And so, it's been. it's been a journey and I'm I'm. frightened, frankly, of what of what it. means for all of us. And my approach. a kind of, you know, not like. Jonathan's. I I love Jonathan's. approach. I, you know, I think yes, we. need legislation. But my approach is. more, I would say, tempered in that I think that we there's. utility for AI chatbots for certain.

people because of access or, you know, need, etc. Like if you are LGBTQIA+ and. you live in an area that is not very. open and you need to talk to someone. You can't go to your therapist. It's. like maybe you can use an AI chatbot. So, there's certain cases, a. case-by-case basis. But my work will. focus, this particular book will focus. on ways that you can first understand. and build awareness of what's happening. with this interaction and then what you. can do to manage that. >> I am didn't realize that my.

chatbot was giving me a tailored. experience until one day when I had a. debate with my friends about who the. best football player in the world was. and we all went to our ChatGPTs and. asked it and mine said, "Messi." And his. said, "Ronaldo." And I I thought he was. lying. So, I was like, "Video record.". And he video recorded it and his gave. him a completely different answer to the. same question. >> And they didn't know that you were each. fans of. >> Well, this is the thing. I think it's. got such a huge amount of memory on me. that it knew what I wanted to hear. >> It knew what. >> [laughter]. >> It knew what I wanted to hear cuz I.

probably went through the World Cup and. I mhm. And then I realized, okay, so this is. not reality. This is it's a curated. version of reality that in some sense is. trying to please me or to retain me in. some way. And of course, once the. advertising model kicks in, retention. becomes the great incentive. What you. think? >> It's called sycophancy, by the way. >> Yeah, I just learned that word cuz. >> [laughter]. >> It's extreme It's like agreeableness at. scale. It's like golden retriever. energy. >> Like kissing your ass, is it? Professional kissing your ass. >> The yes-man. >> What do you think of these AIC CEOs? Cuz. they it feels like they're in a bit of a.

race. >> Mhm. >> Where if you know, if they don't do it, then a national rival's going to do it. If a national rival doesn't. doesn't take them out, China's going to. do it. And I. This is we've seen we kind of saw it. with social media. How can they stop? Because if if they stop. >> Yeah. >> You know, they might say that there. there's an existential risk. >> There is like a build the plane as. you're flying it. And I think you on one. of your episodes, you know that I'm a. fan of the show and I actively listen to. this I've told you this many times.

One [snorts] of the I think you had said. on one of your episodes, right? That you. have a friend who is very close to a AI. founder and. >> this, yeah. >> Yeah, and in public the founder says all. the right things and then behind closed. doors it's. >> Yeah, it was a it was [laughter]. horrifying thing and I said this and the. clip went viral and people have been. trying to hazard a guess who it was. I. could I shouldn't say who it was because. it's a it's Chinese whispers at the end. of the day. It's someone that I'm very. good friends with who is very qualified, spends time with one of the biggest. founders of an AI company in the world. And I he was with him 2 weeks ago again.

And he said to me that they're very. aware that there's a. small. existential risk for humanity. >> And so they say publicly they say it's. small. Privately they say it's big. >> I mean, but even if there were it was. 1%. >> It's a lot more than 1% they say. >> If it was but I'm saying even if it if. it was 0.1%. If there was if there was. anything that I was doing in my life. where there was a 0.1% chance that I. might wipe out everybody, I would. immediately [laughter] stop doing that. thing.

>> Yeah. >> But but these numbers are much bigger. I'm hearing 7%, 20%, 25% depending on. who you. And I think acceleration in this. direction increases that percentage. What do you think of these people? Like. what what's going on here? >> Let's start with the the collective. action problems. because each each company is competing. with the companies and so they feel like. they have to go faster. Uh and we know. this, you know, OpenAI has pushed some. products out before they did safety. testing because they had to get to. market by a certain date. So, just the.

normal business environment puts them. all in a collective action problem. against each other. And then they all. say we're in a collective action problem. against China cuz if we don't do this, then China will. Now, one thing I. learned, again, I don't know if Tristan said this. on your podcast or whether it was on his. podcast, um but is that China is focused. on using AI to make its economy more. efficient, to make manufacturing better. and cheaper. They are using these. applications which we've talked about. before, like we're totally There's lots. of great applications of AI. The Chinese.

also have so many spies in America and. in the tech companies, and they can hack. into anything. So, the point is the. faster our companies are are in a. headlong race to create AGI, to create a. country of geniuses that can replace all. human workers, put us all out of work, and run it can run everything. They're. in a race to create that, and one of the. arguments is if we don't do it, China. will. But what I understood from this. interview with Tristan and from his. conversation with you is that the faster. we go towards AGI, the faster China goes. cuz they just they just take all our.

discoveries. So, can't we slow down on. the race to AGI and do more safety. testing? Um you know, what we also with. Multibook and you know, communities of. agents who are talking to each other and. making up languages, and even if part of. it was human-driven now, in a year it's. going to be much more than than what we. saw. So, I think the the risks are. extraordinary. I think that some of. these guys, look, they've been in AI for. a long time. They might not have. realized the existential risk they were. putting us all in 10, 15 years ago, and. now they can't stop. They can't pull the.

plug. They can't say, "Oh, let's shut. down the whole business." So, it is a. very, very risky time, and um I think. Dario Amodei, I just read his long essay. on the adolescence of technology. At. least you get the feeling he's really. wrestling with it, and he's I think. he'll I think he's more open than some. the others, but I don't know. >> But when has morality ever been top top. [laughter] of mind for a tech leader? You might be thinking if there's 0.111%. chance I'm not going to do it. That's. what I think as a doctor. That's what. you think as a social scientist, but.

we're not AI leaders, right? >> Yeah. It's one of the great question. marks. I just can't seem to get an. answer to them and and then you've got. this whole robotics thing happening. where. Elon's got his Optimus robots and. there's going to be a billion uh he says. there's going to be 10 billion of them. at one point, but I think his pay packet. requires a million of them to be out in. the world. >> For him to make a trillion dollars, yeah. >> Yeah, and I just say yeah, AI robotics, you combine the two, you get Terminator. >> [laughter]. >> We laugh, but it's like.

>> Yeah. >> should we stop for a second and maybe. have a conversation about this? Can we? >> Yeah. >> With commercial incentives in play, it. does feel like. I don't feel hopeful. >> Yeah. It's very hard to know how to stop. it. Um but I just I want to just add one. one point on here which we've touched. around. a few times and the robotics will really. bring it home here. Um is the the the. loss of the sense of meaning or purpose. that many people are feeling, but.

especially young people. The saddest. graph in the anxious generation All the. graphs look the same. It's all a hockey. stick. It's all like nothing was. happening uh you know, '90s to 2010, 2011 and all of a sudden something. happens. And the saddest one is the one my life. feels meaningless. Um do you agree with. that? Disagree with it? And the percent. that agree, uh I think it's you know, something like 8% or 9% uh you know, agreed for the millennial generation. I. think it's in chapter seven, the end of. chapter seven. And then it's what's. fairly flat and then all of a sudden we. hit this period, the great re-wiring, 2010 to 2015.

Uh so right around 2013 it goes way, way. up. Um. young people feel useless. And I think. the reason is that they are useless. What I mean is. people need to feel useful. People need. to do things for other people. That's. how you feel useful. If if you were to. disappear, would the world change? If. yes, you're useful. Are Are people depending on you for. something? If yes, you're useful. So, if. if kids are doing errands for the. family, they're useful. But as childhood. changed from a mix of things to just.

consuming content, if that's all you do, and 5 hours a day is the average for. social media, 8 to 10 on on devices not. counting school, if all you're doing is. just you're just consuming content, you. are useless. Now, what's happening? The. chance to have a job where you actually. do something for people, you know, you. know, you used to be if you work in a. store, at least you're helping people. buy something and you might talk to. them. And now you're just there watching. as they use the machine. The more technology makes things easy. and cheap by replacing people,

the more people will feel, "My job is to. just I don't have a job. It's just. consume content.". The AI guys tell us, "Oh, such. abundance. Oh my god, it's going to be. such abundance. No one will have to. work. We'll give everyone UBI. We'll. give everybody, you know, universal. basic income." That is hell on earth. What's going to happen? Certainly all. the boy most of the boys, it's just. going to be video games, porn, and. gambling. So, if you if you simply give. people money to do nothing, you guaranteed they're going to feel. useless. And then the suicide rate will.

continue to go up. So, this is the world. that the AI guys are taking us to, a. world in which there's nothing left for. people to do. Um they say that they will. give up some of their trillions and uh. somehow let it be taxed or diverted as. UBI, but that's never happened before, so it's not likely to happen in this. case. So again, I don't know what to do, but. we've got to start showing that we can. do something, and we've got to be. talking about this. And we can't be. welcoming AI in everywhere. We've got to. be wary and vigilant. Yes, there are.

some uses, but Silicon Valley has. tricked us so many times and inshitified. so many of the apps that we use, we have. to expect that the same is going to. happen with our beloved chatbots and our. beloved chat GPT. >> This graph on page 195 of your book, um. which is titled life often feels. meaningless and it's the graph you. mentioned. I'll throw it up on the. screen. Is shocking. Shocking just to look at. Suddenly. there's this huge spike in. meaninglessness. amongst high school seniors.

What is it to live a meaningful life? What does that mean? >> Yeah. So, my first book, The Happiness. Hypothesis, addresses that question very. directly. Um and the first hypothesis you might. have about happiness is it comes from. getting what you want. You know, you set. out a goal, you get your goal, you're. happy. It's very short-lived. You're. happy very briefly and then you you run. to the next thing. The more. sophisticated happiness hypothesis is. that happiness comes from within. And.

this is what the ancients tell us, east. and west, Buddhist, stoic. Don't try to. make the world conform, you change. yourself. Be accept the world the way it. is. That's better. But what I the conclusion I came to as a. as a modern social psychologist working. in positive psychology was that the best. way to say it is that happiness comes. from between. What I mean by that is humans evolved as. almost hive-ish creatures. We evolved in. intensely social groups, never being. alone, lots of gossip, lots of conflict,

always intensely social. And modernity has made it possible for. us to not live that way. We've come. apart. There are many advantages to. that, but we feel we're we're missing. something. We're we're we're lonely. We. feel something is not right. And so. the conclusion I came to is that. happiness comes. a sense of. >> [laughter]. >> a full, satisfying, meaningful life. comes. when you get three betweens right. The. relationship [snorts] between yourself. and others, love broadly speaking, not just.

romantic, but friends, family, Um yourself and your work. That is. humans need to be productive. We need to. be doing something that matters, that. that affects other people. And uh the relationship between you and. something larger than yourself. We need. to be part of something that endures, that a part of a tradition, part of we. can look to the look to a future. What I. do matters for this group or this. mission or me as an academic, I feel. like I'm connected all the way back to. Plato and I hope all the way forward in.

time to to future future psychologists, future scholars. So, if you get those three right, then you will be as happy as you can be. You'll be as happy as your genes and. childhood allow you to be. And when you put it that way, what we. can see is. social media and AI interfere with all. three. So, relationship between yourself and. others, well, you know, social media. gives you lots and lots of shallow. relationships, which blocks out. You. don't have time for your for real. people. So, the technology is blocking.

relation between ourself and others and. taking it over. Our self and our work, work is going to be taken over by the. machines. uh and it's already becoming more. soulless and isolated. And then yourself. and something larger than yourself. Humans have to live in a moral matrix. We we co-create a a set of meanings and. traditions. We need a sense of history. of who we are, where we came from. All that's getting shredded. Everything's just little bits. People. don't read books. Imagine if all of the. accumulated wisdom of humanity in books.

is just gone, just gone. Nobody's going. to be be people young people are reading. books. It's very hard for them to read a. book now because of the attention. So, if we lose a sense of history, if we. lose uh an ability to to co-construct. reality, then it'll be hard to imagine. anything that we're connected to larger. than ourselves. So, I'm I am a. techno-determinist in the sense that I. think the tech it doesn't determine. everything, but that you have to start. with the technology cuz that changes the. ground upon which we live, the. the the the zone in which we're trying. to construct meaningful lives. Start.

with that. And then you can see what the. obstacles are. And that's why I take a. much more what intemperate, I guess I'll. accept the word. >> [snorts]. >> Um because I think we don't cuz we don't. have much time here. We have to reclaim. life in the real world for our kids and. for ourselves. There is no way to find a. happy meaningful life if we make the. full transition to the online AI robot. world. >> And what in your. perspective is a meaningful life? And. how does it differ from from Jonathan's?

>> I loved Jonathan's description. It was. so beautiful. The I have given a prescription to. patients of what creates a meaningful. life and it is to live a lifetime in a. day. And so that sounds like this big. thing, but all it is is that, you know, when you start your day, think about. five things, five things that you can do. in your day to create an arc of a long. and meaningful life in one day. So what. does that mean? Spend a little bit of. time in childhood. So in wonder and.

play, even if it's for a few minutes, do. something that brings you joy for joy's. sake. Spend a little bit of time in. work. We all know what that is and for. most of us it's a lot of time, but for, you know, it doesn't have to be paid. work, but just something that helps you. feel a sense of productivity, agency. that I can do difficult things and I can. overcome. Spend a few minutes in. solitude, very important for all of the. reasons [clears throat] that we've. talked about today. Spend some time in. community, so engaging with others. And. then spend some time in retirement or in.

reflection. Really taking stock of your. day. So at the end of the day, when. you're going to bed and you're putting. your head on your pillow, you can say, "Okay, yes, I lived a meaningful life. I. did all of those things." And so if you. do a little bit of that every day, you. can make a difference. And the reason I. give that prescription because I've had. patients who, you know, guitar players, right? So people who love playing the. guitar. And they don't play the guitar. all week. And they'll say to me, I don't. see patients currently, but they've said. to me, oh, you know, no, doc. I I said,

what do you like to do for fun? Oh, I. like playing guitar, but I don't play. it. When do you play? I don't know, once. a month, once every 3 months. And I'm. like, do you have a guitar at home? I. have a guitar at home. Too much. happening, work and family life, etc. So. then I said, well, why don't you just. play a guitar a little bit every day, you know? Because it's that all or. nothing fallacy. It's like if I don't. have an hour to play guitar, I'm not. going to do it. the joy that it can. bring you, that meaning and purpose, it's tremendous. So, I think, you know, that's what I use, live a lifetime in a. day. And the reason is because there are. two distinct, when you look at how your.

brain and body react to happiness, there's two distinct types of happiness. And so, there's hedonic happiness and. eudaimonic happiness. Hedonic happiness. is all about what we've talked about, social media, consumption, pleasure. And the other type is eudaimonic. happiness, meaning, purpose, connection, community, growth-oriented activities. And so, in when you live a lifetime in a. day, you go towards that eudaimonia,

which can then help you and overcome. that hedonic. Because in your brain, there's something called the hedonic. treadmill. And the treadmill is a thing. in your brain where, no matter what you. do, this is like the Instagram. lifestyle, right? No matter what. happens, you need more of it. You need. more of it. Same thing with brain rot. And that is because that you can never. get enough. And it's um the hedonic. treadmill. But you do not have a. treadmill for eudaimonic happiness. >> Okay. Could I that that is really beautiful. I've never heard an approach like that, but it it it sort of takes you it gives. you a much a bigger view of your day.

Live a lifetime in a day. If I was going. to offer some specific advice, first I'll offer advice to parents. Um. here's the rule. So, I did a really good. job keeping my kids off social media, but I didn't pay enough attention to. computers and everything else cuz it was. during COVID. The rule I wish I had followed, I. recommend to all parents, especially. young children, is. have the clear rule, no devices in the. bedroom, no screens in the bedroom, ever. That's just our family rule. We. have a TV in the living room, we have a. computer, you can sometimes use those,

but we never take screens into the. bedroom, at least for kids. You know, maybe later on you'll have to relent, in. middle school they'll have so much. homework they can take the laptop in, and maybe you'll if you're in a small. apartment, of course it's difficult. But. if you can afford to do that, to to have. that rule, that's the main rule I wish I. had done in my family, and that would. make everything a lot easier. Also, same. thing at the dinner table, no device, we. don't have screens at the dinner table. So, that's that's a specific thing for. parents to do. Um, for everyone else, for everyone, for. just all adults, the advice is you have to reclaim your.

attention, because your attention has. been largely taken from you, at least a. lot of it has. You have to reclaim it, and here are the three things that I. that I do with my students, and you can. do it very quickly, and I can just. explain it. The first is you have to get. your morning and evening routine right. The great majority, as soon as they open. their eyes, they're on their phone, and. it's the last thing, and it's everything. in between. So, you have to have a good. morning routine. What What are the first. seven things you want to do after you. open your eyes? And at at a certain. point you can check your phone, but it. shouldn't be in the first few. Um, do.

things to set up your own day, otherwise. your day will be taken by your phone, it'll be controlled by your phone. So, you've got to reclaim your morning and. your evening. That's step one. Step two, um, you have. to shut off almost all notifications. Go. into your notifications, look at into. your settings, what's giving you all the. notifications? Most of my students get. an alert every time they get an email. They don't understand that they have. that you know, cuz they don't want to. miss anything. But they don't understand. that if you are always being alerted, then you miss everything else. So, shut.

off alerts for almost everything. Obviously, Uber and Lyft you want to. keep on, you want to know when the car. is coming, but news outlets, everything. else, get get a daily email, don't get. alerts when. And then, the third, as as I said. before, is get rid of all the slot. machine apps. Whatever apps you. habitually use, whatever apps you feel. compulsion towards, you have to get it. off your phone. And in that way your. phone is no longer a dopamine trigger. that's going to always call out to you. like an addictive product. Do those. three things, you'll reclaim a lot of. your attention. >> I would add stop, breathe, be.

>> Stop, breathe, be. >> to 3-second brain reset. So, you before. you check your devices, before you. engage, stop, breathe, and be. Ground yourself in the. present moment. What it does is it. decreases that what if future-focused. thinking. You know, anxiety is a. future-focused emotion, and it gets you. back into the here and the now. And so, maybe the compulsion, you know, you're. bored, you're checking. What about doing. something else? You're You know, you you. we often use that checking as a. substitute for many things. And so, it.

gives you that opportunity. And then the. rule of two is something that we haven't. talked about, which I would love to. propose to. us today is that your brain can really. only handle two new changes at a time. And so, give yourself two things of all. of the things that we've talked about if. you want to try in your life, two at a. time, give yourself 8 weeks, and then. add two more and two more. This is why. New Year's resolutions fail, because we. try to do everything all at once. And. so, just step-wise, two at a time. >> Jonathan, you've just written this book,

which is now out, called The Amazing. Generation. And. it's beautiful. Beautiful illustrations. I'm assuming. this one is for slightly younger. audiences. >> It's for ages 8 to 13, yes. >> And who should buy this and who should. they buy it for? >> It turns out that. kids 8 through 80 actually love it. Even. adults, they're buying it for their. kids, but because it kind of lays out. the basic ideas of the of the anxious. generation and explains dopamine, explains the business model, but it does. it in a really fun way. And.

it's working beyond our wildest dreams. If you look at the Amazon reviews, it's. full of parents who said, "I left it on. the kitchen table. my kids came home, they grabbed it, they fought over it, they read it, they each read it in the. in the first couple days, and then they. said, 'Mom, when I go to middle school, I don't want a smartphone. Just give me. a give me a flip phone. Give me a basic. phone.'" Because the book is about how. to be a rebel. It's about how to reject. this control that the companies trying. to put on you, and how to live a life. that you choose full of real freedom, friendship, and fun.

>> And also the five resets, which is a. book we talked about before on the show, rewire your brain and body for less. stress and more resilience. Another. smash hit bestseller that everybody's. been talking about. Who's it for? >> It is for anyone who is struggling with. stress, overwhelm, and burnout. It's to. help you feel a sense of calm and. clarity in this anxious, uncertain. world. Everything is free, so that's. something that's really important to me. as a doctor. Every suggestion I ever. offer will always be cost-free because I.

think about patients with varying. resources. It's all science-backed and. it's totally practical. You don't have. to go to Bali and have a sabbatical. You. can rewire your brain today, right now, in the midst of all of this chaos. >> Thank you to both of you. I've learned so much, and. I really, really mean that. Like I've. I've I feel sufficiently pushed to take. change to make change in my life. And I need to go think about this. because um. I am uh most certainly struggling with. my addiction to my phone, and I can feel.

it hurting my relationships, especially. now as a fiance. My girlfriend talks to. me about fiance talks to me about it all. the time. And I want to be present. I. want to be present for my kids when I. have my kids, and I'm slightly concerned. right now that I won't be unless I take. some kind of drastic action. um in the direction [clears throat] of. getting my attention back and reclaiming. it. Thank you so much for the work that. both of you do. I can't say it enough. because it's so important, and you reach. so many millions of people, and you're. you're both changing the world in a. really in a way that my words would not. be able to capture. Um but just thank you, and please keep. going. And if If anything more that I.

can do to support both of your causes, um, please do let me know what they are. and on behalf of all of my, you know, many millions of people that are with us. right now, um, thank you so much for. saving our children. >> Thank you, Steven. Thank you for giving. the world so many opportunities to. accommodate and create new mental. structures. >> It's always such a pleasure to join you, Steven, and truly, I feel like you are. changing the world, as well. >> Thank you. >> We're done. Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm. where they know exactly what video you.

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