Billion Dollar NIGHTMARE! The Tragedy Of A Billion $$ Beauty Business - Nicola Kilner, The Ordinary

just a tragic story and a tragic ending. it's hard to say if it's regrets but is. there anything different we could have. done. Nicola Kilner co-founder and CEO of. decim and the ordinary this is the. unthinkable inspirational and tragic. story of how she built a 2.2 Billion. Dollar Empire I always just had this. feeling that the only way to Achieve. Financial Freedom is entrepreneurship. and then I met Brandon. Brandon Truax founder of decim and the.

ordinary one of the fastest growing skin. care companies in the world a success. story the minute it launched we couldn't. keep it in stock producing 400 000 units. every single day it valued at 2.2. billion US Dollars it truly happened. what felt like overnight and this is. really where Brandon's Behavior started. to change. gone from someone who there was just so. much warmth it's just this coldness in. his eyes I was suddenly pushed out of. everything and then I got fired Yusuf.

emails were being sent firing people and. copying the whole company in everything. was played out on Instagram saying he. was shutting down the entire company the. shareholders had to step in but then. things just seemed to keep spiraling and. I don't know what to do to help him. we've got breaking news right now of the. founder of decim has died. foreign.

what would you do if the person closest. to you. your best friend your partner the person. you've built your life with is seemingly. lost their sanity overnight and went. from working with you to Turning against. you this story is as profound as it is. heartbreaking it is as haunting as it is. heroic of all the stories we've shared. on this podcast this is the most. chilling it is the most hard to believe.

and right at the end of this. conversation there is a Twist that I did. not see coming when you learn in the. most tragic way. that history is just repeating itself an. incredible business story an unthinkable. tragedy and a formidable entrepreneur. that stood tall when most would fall. and a genius lost to the world too soon. so pause take a deep breath because what. comes next is not ordinary it is. certainly extraordinary.

foreign. [Music]. paint a picture for me. paint a picture for me of where you have. come from so I think quite a traditional. um you know because mum stayed at home. so she did do the cooking the cleaning. in just a very caring uh you know Jesus. with my my children today and it makes.

me so happy because I know what kind of. mum she was and just knowing that that. love that they're going to have my dead. father was very. um great sense of humor always very. playful very inspiring very charismatic. always had kind of Big Ideas uh kind of. high energy and my mum was much more. reserved more of an introvert my dad was. kind of always there the people person. always kind of very busy socially and. Mum was very calm dad would have a. temper sometimes but you know nothing.

too much. and at that age at that young age sort. of like around that 10 11 12 age what. were your aspirations and hopes for your. future if I'd asked you where did you. think you were going to end up. it's actually a combination of kind of. almost two what I don't think needs to. be extremes anymore but kind of I think. originally would have been seen as two. one was actually a stay-at-home mum. because I think I'd seen my mum. obviously just in that role and I've. always been very maternal I'd always. dreamed of having children except I.

always wanted freedom I never wanted to. rely on anyone else and I think I'd. always kind of been interested in. entrepreneurship watch Dragon's Den from. you know quite a young age I always just. had this feeling that actually the only. way to really Achieve Financial Freedom. is probably through entrepreneurship in. in some way so I always kind of had this. dream of almost just doing something of. my 20s kind of making all the sacrifices. to build up enough Freedom that then. actually going on to have a family I.

could make the choices to really spend. my time where I wanted to is that is. that why you went and studied management. studies yes well it was actually. interesting because I never knew if I. wanted to go to university or not. because. you know I believe in University very. much if you want to become a doctor you. want to become a lawyer you know there. are there are subjects that you really. need to learn business is one of those. where it's always hard like do you learn. that at University or do you learn that. in doing so I came across this course. um which was business management in.

company which is quite a unique course. which was at Nottingham Trent University. so it's sponsored by different Blue Chip. companies so Rolls Royce boots Barclays. Tescos companies like that they take on. 40 people into this course we would work. four and a half days a week for. whichever company are sponsoring us. and then the other half day was kind of. our study time although there was much. more than that and actually we were then. we'd go so I chose boots well we went. through interviews our boots was my.

first choice and I was lucky to get. there boots for anyone that doesn't. under know the story if you're overseas. in America or something it's kind of. like CVS or something isn't it pretty. much that's the equivalent. um what's your so if we just pause it. and what's your opinion now on. University when your children get to. that age where they're about to make. that decision you've got two young. children when they get to 18 years old. and if they said Mommy I want to be. entrepreneur like you what advice would. you give them based on your experience. so I actually would always probably.

recommend doing a few years in a. corporate because I have to say at boots. I learned so much. you know you learn the things that they. do really well you learn the things that. they do not necessarily wrong but just. the drawbacks of being such a big. organization so I think you know more. than going to University like those two. the two placement years I did at boots I. learned incredibly so much and depending. on the kind of person you want you know. if you go to a big corporate it's so. difficult to impact the culture there.

because there's just so many people. there's so much history. and if you are someone who's kind of got. this strong drive to make a change. then you know entrepreneurship I think. is just an incredible area and even if. it's not your idea but going to join a. startup is just incredible energy and it. just would always be what I would. recommend at that point. if there was a key skill or a key set of. skills that you took from your time. working in a corporate app boot that.

then. proved to be incredibly valuable as you. went on. what were those skills. so when I was it so so when I graduated. I then stayed on and I was an assistant. by to begin with and then I got promoted. to be um a buying manager for them which. was really around relationships it was. about collaboration it was about looking. around the world seeing new technologies. finding the Innovation new brands and. then really hand-holding those which.

mainly were entrepreneurs to come into. boots to actually show them look this is. how we could launch uh you know we had a. stand it was called latest spines we. would launch a new innovation for a. period of three months as a trial to see. if it would work would boots consumers. like this if it did they would get a. listing with boots kind of long term. and that just really suited my skill set. because it was a very entrepreneurial. role because actually you know I I very.

much guided them with PR agencies and. actually how to build the plan and. um you know we used to have the saying. of like launch and love because actually. it's one thing to get a listing of boots. it's another thing for your product to. actually be picked and taken off the. shelf like the listing is just the first. thing you know you you have to drive. consumers you have to have that entire. plan and I think it was just a really. good way of actually learning from. working with supply chain working with. Finance doing the checks with legal can. we do this what can we say it was a.

really good sense of actually working. with so many different departments and. actually starting to understand I think. consumer goods learning demand learning. how to create it and so I feel like that. role was created. which really just suited my my skill set. incredibly well and I'm very fortunate. for that and then that's also how I met. Brandon so I actually had a huge impact. and obviously my my next stage too and. Brandon was a business you were maybe he. had a business you may be looking at.

yeah so he was with his previous. business which was called indeed labs. and we launched a couple of their. products through this program latest. finds so I'd worked with him and I. remember. you know and actually when I this sounds. alien now so many years ago but you. couldn't check your emails when you left. the office so often every morning I'd. come in and I was dealing with a lot of. international entrepreneurs so I'd. always come into like an inbox full of. emails I always remember like looking. for his name because his email was. always so full of energy he always.

signed off Smiles Brandon you know just. someone who's positivity his passion. just kind of really Shone through that. I'd always go straight to his emails. kind of open it and you know the. launches that we did with Brandon indeed. loves were some of the most successful. we did through the through the. Innovation program and and he was just. you know when he used to come to the. boots head office in Nottingham just it. was bouncing off the walls with kind of. this infectious energy and I remember. just from the day I met him thinking.

gosh I always want this person in my. life because he just had this Aurora and. just someone who you knew wanted to. actually also make the world a better. place and kind of really cared about. doing good and and doing things. differently. and at some point you start having a. conversation with him privately about. launching a business your own business. and then he's launching his business. right yeah so so I remember he suddenly. left in dude Labs now indeed Labs he he. founded it it was a rocket ship it was. kind of doing super well I remember. getting this this message from him that.

he left and just being like. shocked as in like what has happened. um. so then when he was next in London I met. up with him. and obviously he told me about his. reasons for leaving he was going to do. this next thing and I'd always kind of. had this this Viewpoint of wanting to do. my own business and ever since I worked. in Beauty I found that you know I always. had friends family everyone asking. what's the best mascara what's the best. foundation and just how we'd go to. TripAdvisor you know to look at kind of. ratings and reviews for restaurants and.

hotels I wanted to create the same thing. for beauty that actually ranked the. products. so I told Brenda my dear and said I want. to do this and like what do you think do. you have any advice and he told me he. wanted to start something called decim. which was from the Latin word for the. number 10 and it wasn't designed to be a. beauty engine at that time. there was a beauty concept but there was. a technology concept there was a food. concept so kind of just lots of. different ideas generating but with this. Viewpoint of doing 10 things at once so.

he said why don't you come and help do. deci in with me and I'll help do the the. beauty we went on to call it Beauty wise. with you. so then obviously I made the decision to. leave boots which um obviously I was at. the age of uh 24 23 24 and I remember. telling mum and everyone's like oh like. you're in a really good business you've. got a good like you're already achieving. things but I just knew that I wasn't. meant to be there forever so I yeah I. left 10 years ago and then it was the. start of decim.

I've got to say this idea of doing 10. brands at once seems like it's counter. intuitive to all anything you might read. in a business book that speaks to the. importance of focus. um was there any sense in that in your. view so in in actually our office in in. Melbourne we used to have on the wall. focus is overrated because everyone does. tell you not to do 10 things at once. and actually there were so many benefits. to doing 10 things at once so first of. all it was this Viewpoint of trying to.

create this ecosystem of you know how do. we have our own manufacturing do our own. comms in-house because. and again it takes funds to set up that. ecosystem but also you know so many. entrepreneurs which. I understand why they're in this. situation but so many entrepreneurs have. to Outsource everything they go to the. pr agency they go to a lab they go to. someone to do your r d and then you're. really just coordinating all of those. efforts rather than I mean so it was a. privilege we could build this this whole.

ecosystem because then at the table. everyone sat there everyone's generating. ideas and again you know if I think. around like doing comms in-house it's a. lot for one brand to pay but if you've. got 10 brands suddenly you can look at. it as 10 of everyone's salary if I'm. flying to Australia to me to buy a wall. do I want to present one brand or do I. present ten Brands and also just this. you know area of you don't know what's. going to until if you're in consumer. brand. until it starts selling you don't really.

know what's going to be you can do all. the research and all the insights and in. the world until something gets traction. you don't really know what's going to. work so also just set up this incredible. structure that we could fail we could. keep trying things if we could fail. relatively cheaply quickly and kind of. start the next thing what's the downside. though of doing 10 brands so I'd say the. downside in in the later years is. because the ordinary has become such a. huge success when the ordinary took off.

the other brands got pushed aside. because it's very difficult if you have. one brand that's really driving such a. huge portion of your revenues when. everyone is you know facing high. workload that always gets prioritized so. then you end up ignoring the other. brands versus if they had a dedicated. team in is something now we want to. actually restart our incubator engine. and actually the only way we can do that. is by having a dedicated team to that so. there are downsides I think the other. thing that made a huge difference for us.

because we didn't have much money as a. startup and we obviously wanted to hire. all of these people we couldn't afford. experience so everyone who was hired was. pretty much straight out of of. University straight out of college just. applied for their first job. and actually that meant no one really. had preconditioned ideas about the. beauty industry about the way things. should be everyone was approaching it. just with a almost a very practical. viewpoint. and I think that made a big difference. too with actually this how do we think.

differently how do we do what others. aren't doing it was almost never. something that had to be discussed. because people hadn't worked for the. other conglomerates for all the years. soon after you become co-ceos with. Brandon yeah um I always think about. co-founder relationships and you know. people being yin and yang and what the. kind of right balance is for for. co-founders in your case you the way. that you came together was quite unique. it wasn't necessarily there wasn't an.

initial interest in being co-founders. you were both going to do two separate. things you then kind of got drawn. towards each other. if I put your personality on this side. and Brandon's here what are the the. differences how are they complementary. but also uncomplementary. so Brandon was eccentric yes he was I'd. say we both were both very passionate. he was a lot more eccentric and I'm a. lot more calm I think would be a big. difference but I guess but also from the. skill set you know he was.

um he was so into this like he was a. genius when it came to science and he. was a tech person originally so he came. from things with a very he didn't. understand gray it was black and white. and actually that was quite a good way. to actually approach the science I think. behind beauty products and he was at. times short-tempered. um I'd be the the kind of smoothing. things out and he would kind of be a. little bit more hot-headed but again I. think it was you know a startup culture.

is not for everyone but for me those. first few years were incredible. but he also just had this amazing way of. making things fun uh you know like when. we would plan trips to go on meetings he. would be prioritizing which restaurants. we were going to where it's got the best. ice cream what are we gonna go and do. here and actually the work was something. that came alongside it he also had this. you know he had this philosophy he. wanted to build a family. he'd had you know a troubled upbringing.

I think he'd always you know he'd he'd. actually had this pattern I think of. always leaving a business when it kind. of just went on the verge of success. um Jesse and was his fourth business he. had a tech business and he had two. Beauty businesses euroka then indeed. before before decim. and each time what hurt him was actually. leaving the relationships and the people. behind so his Viewpoint of decim was. actually how do we build a family like a. work family but I think he.

he was never work and I think that's. what so many of us felt weekends. evenings like we wanted to be doing. deciing because we were all friends we. were all eating together we were going. to Niagara Falls on the weekend we were. going to a theme park in Toronto like we. were just having fun whilst we were. doing everything. the part you said about he wanted to. build a family because he had a sort of. troubled upbringing I'm trying to. understand now how his upbringing you. believe shaped his perspective on how.

you assemble a company it sounds there. like he was building the family he might. not have had or there's clearly some. attachment challenges there if he wants. to sell the brands but not the people. yeah and and again the Heartbreak. associated with leaving these companies. was all about losing relationships a lot. of that speaks to something that must. have happened early. yeah so I think. it was around building a family of he. never wanted anyone to leave him and. he wanted decim to to be a place of.

belonging and actually even now we have. belonging as our kind of Northstar like. the most important thing anyone in our. team should feel is that they belong at. decim whoever they are whatever they. believe in like there is a place for. them at decim and I think that really. comes from this like sense of family and. I think. and you know again like I even look at. my my husband's world I do think. startups because. you're working in a very intense. environment it does build relationships.

far deeper than well I ever experienced. at boots and that I think would exist in. in corporates. so this sense of family I think you know. we would have taken a bullet for each. other and I think even now like within. within decimal you know we're 1500. people now but we still have so many of. those early team members. it is but actually a very happy one yeah. this morning I did a talk and I said. listen I'm going to say something here. which might get me in trouble I'm like. you've got to scale from a cult I was.

like I always have to disclaimer and. explain culture really bad of course and. you know they manipulate people but this. is what I mean it's that that sense of. dedication We're All in This Together. inspirational founder Mission you all. believe in and you believe you're right. regardless of what the outside world. says you're on a mission you're sleeping. under the debt you know yeah well it's. they always say that you know you can. you can do like complain about your. parents but for anyone else there's a. bad word about yourself even if they're. saying the same thing you've said. industrian's like that you know like you.

can complete like in terms of like maybe. there's not this process but anyone says. a bad word you come straight to the. defense but I think it was just so much. love and passion and again Brandon cares. for all of us like he had so much love. that you gave it back and that's where. it was so difficult you know when we. when we went through the the unthinkable. and things became so difficult because. it wasn't a colleague like you've just. lived this incredible journey of us all. traveling together building something so. special like just this such a sense of.

We're All in This Together like even. when times are hard like we've got each. other's backs and things may not work. out but actually let's just have fun. let's learn things and let's just keep. trying like let's never be afraid to. fail and let's just do it together. people hear that and they see. the. outcome so everything you've described. there is the outcome you've got this. great culture people are dedicated. they're loyal they're on this Mission. what people will be thinking because. they'll be sat in their offices now.

working somewhere or they'll be building. a company of their own in fact this. young lady came up to me this morning. and asked me this question when I was. um doing this talk she said I've got. this small team and I'm trying to create. exactly what you've described that kind. of real dedicated kind of cult-like. um company culture where everyone's in. it. how. how how does one create it it's so it's. actually quite difficult to explain how. it comes together because in many cases. from what I've observed it's not. necessarily intentional.

I.E there wasn't it wasn't like a. strategic. um drawn-up plan to make people really. care it was quite a natural thing that. resulted in that sort of deep sense of. care from the team members. um I'll offer up one thing which you. said which I thought was spot on which. people often Overlook which is fun yeah. people think of you know people think. well we'll give perks and this but it's. all the things that happen outside of. the work that seem to do most of the. work in creating that cult. and you you come up with the best ideas.

when you're doing something on the. weekend and you're not in that that kind. of Monday to Friday nine till five Zone. that's when that creativity I think. happens and I think you know people. spend so long in the workplace and. that's why it's so important that. actually people enjoy coming in the one. thing that I say like is it's definitely. been like a purposeful shift is I look. back at early startup culture and I. don't know if it's always kind there's. very high expectations and again if.

you're working you know I'm I'm calm. Brandon is very high passion high. expectations you know there's this. people feel like they need to work on. the weekends and the evenings and is. that healthy even though actually. is trying to get that balance and I. think it'd be interesting you know and. again with my husband who's a different. stage of startup I always just find it. interesting around like I think. especially in today's world like we're. so much more aware about mental health.

and burnout and actually how to be much. more respectful of balance. which I don't know if we necessarily had. back then but equally I feel like again. we're pretty much a bunch of young 20. year olds with Brandon you know being a. little bit older who are all just happy. and loved what we were doing and when. you start creating things and you start. to see the the results of your work then. that drives you even further and then. that makes it even more exciting because. you know you can see what you're. achieving is actually meaning something. do you think you could have achieved the.

success with decim and the ordinary and. the other brands if you didn't have that. lack of balance and early cult-like. culture no and and again like you're. thinking only in the early days. everyone's around the same table you've. got predvey who's making formulations. Dion who's doing comms and brand like. everyone's just there talking coming up. with ideas and that's that collaboration. is so special and you know you're you're.

in WhatsApp groups and you're like have. you seen this let's do this and also I. think you know the other thing in the. early days being agile is so important. and everyone was okay you could work on. something in the next day there'd be a. change of decision or someone had a. different review and you're like oh. actually let's go in that direction now. that gets harder I think as you get. bigger and actually there are many more. teams and there's more people involved. so that's interesting. um I have to say I agree. um with with um any business I've ever.

been in I I look back at those first. what are 10 20 people in the way they. behaved and that's ultimately what we. scaled but it's that energy enthusiasm. that got us from like zero to one does. that therefore mean that there's a. certain type of person you should be. looking to hire at that early phase that. may be. can't afford to have more of an. unbalanced life. come on who's prepared to wear every. hat so in our early days we would say.

yes to like we'd get an order from boots. if we didn't think we could fulfill it. we would say yes and we'd figure it out. afterwards and that would often mean. Brandon myself like all of the whoever. was working in the office at the time. we'd go and work in the factory we would. pull all-nighters making the products. and you know back then I can remember. with hand chemistry we had like a hand. crimping machine like we'd been but it. didn't seal that well and about 1 in 10. actually exploded if you squeeze too. hard so we'd be like there at night like.

making them squeezing them like okay. they can pass. so you have to have people that are. prepared to get on production line to. pack the boxes and again like you know. my even later on like when it was you. know times around November Black Friday. which you know more recently we. boycotted and we well we have slovember. our campaign but those periods where. it's busy everyone gets into the. warehouses and they help ship the. products out so I think the ability to. wear whichever hat is needed for you at. that moment is the most important skill.

set. what do you think of this concept of. work life balance. you know I had someone on the podcast. the other day and it's called Alex. samosie and he was saying that um he was. like people need to stop having a. conversation around work-life balance. because it kind of. assumes that there is such a thing as a. universal balance that we should all be. striking whereas as you described it you. were happy. and you okay your life you might have. been slightly one-dimensional but but. you were happy and surely that happiness. is the most important thing and Alex.

hamosi says listen I do two things I. work and I play video games that's it. and I'm happy so stop telling me to do. work-life balance I'm happy yeah 100. agree and I think you know it comes down. to what's what's the right balance to. you and it changes at different periods. of your life so I was in my 20s I was. fine on my maybe sacrificed nights out. and kind of doing other things but I was. so happy being traveling all the time. being in this kind of Destiny and bubble. creating all of these this magic and to.

me that's such a powerful concept around. how do we achieve balance in different. periods of your life we're all going to. have periods where we can be working. every hour and we love it and actually. it's our it's our work but also it's our. hobby it's our downtime because we just. love it so much then you'll have another. period of your life where you know maybe. you have a an elderly parent that needs. your support maybe you're going through. some challenges you've got young. children how do we step up and support. each other to say you know what I've got.

you here you do this I'll cover those. bits for you because in another few. years maybe it switches around and again. that's something that I think is is so. unique to when we say a family culture. that to me is an example of kindness. that I think really actually. demonstrates it there has been a debate. it hasn't there about the use of the. word family in the corporate world. people think it means it kind of asserts. that there's a lack of boundaries and. these are not you know Netflix's whole. culture document which is like we're not. a family we're a high performance team.

um and I think I have. struggled to figure out where I sit on. it because there are many elements of. the family culture that I always want in. my businesses that sort of care that. going above and beyond the way you know. a deeper sense of relationship that's. non-transactional. and then also. on the other hand you don't fire your. family. you know so what what is that balance. between family and high performance team.

for me family is about belonging and. everyone just really feeling like they. have a safe place to be and that they. are loved I think kindness sometimes is. mistaken for weakness and and also I. think there's there's a conflict between. the words being kind and being nice. being nice. is is kind but can be superficial you. know you see a stranger on the street. you're like hi how you know you open the. door it's nice but do you truly mean. like how are you are you just kind of.

passing it. if someone's not performing at work it's. not necessarily a nice thing to have. that conversation with them. but it is the kind thing because if your. intention is to help them and the help. may be this is maybe a different role. that we see in the company which we. think you're more suited for it may be. that we think you need this coaching. this training to get to where you need. to be and it may be that look you're in. this role but we're not seeing the. delivery here we actually think the.

better option for you is is outside and. now when we've done terminations you. know we've done things around like how. do we do counseling where actually it. helps someone to look for another career. depending on kind of what role it is and. the reasons why we're leaving because to. me then that's a kind of way we're. actually trying to help that person and. the other thing you know. our business we we were like. kind of this and we like had a rocket. ship kind of boomed and then then we. came to a dip just after after kind of. Cove it it hit me when I realized if my.

numbers don't pick up again we're going. to have to let people go because. actually. that is the consequence of business like. you're you're there to kind of. do many things but ultimately like one. factor of that is is to be a business. and to make money and if you start to. not hit your numbers ultimately like you. can't lose money for long people will. start to say you have to save money. where does that come from head count and. I think that then hit me again that okay. we have to perform so to be kind to.

everyone we have to be a performing team. so again I think you can be high. performing. but by being kind I think you can make. everyone feel safe and trusted that. again if you have to make the hard. decision you're going to do it in the. way. to be as kind as possible and actually. you know have the action to try and help. quick one before we get back to this. episode just give me 30 seconds of your. time. two things I wanted to say the first. thing is a huge thank you for listening. and tuning into the show week after week.

means the world to all of us and this. really is a dream that we absolutely. never had and couldn't have imagined. getting to this place but secondly it's. a dream where we feel like we're only. just getting started and if you enjoy. what we do here please join the 24 of. people who watch this channel regularly. and have hit the Subscribe button means. more than I can say and if you hit that. subscribe button here's a promise I'm. gonna make to you I'm gonna do. everything in my power to make this show. as good as I can now and into the future. we're going to deliver the guests that.

you want me to speak to and we're going. to continue to keep doing all of the. things you love about the show. thank you thank you so much back to the. episode I heard you say something which. was that you um. you're the least qualified CEO ever yep. you don't sound like the least qualified. CEO ever. I guess you've been through some so. I definitely am again you know you have. to. I was there from the beginning. and being someone who can you know play.

a leader for an organization of 10. people 20 people 100 people is a very. different skill set. do you know we are 1500 people we now. have a majority ownership from sa Lord. of companies who are a public company. our whole world has changed. and rightly so because being a much. bigger organization we have to be far. more organized and planning and I. wouldn't say those are necessarily my. skill sets and again when you know the. the kind of dip I mentioned was a very.

difficult period because we'd we'd just. been on this rocket ship of you know. even when things were difficult the one. thing that always we were always ahead. of budget targets whatever anyone set. for us we always were just over. achieving which feels incredible when. you're in business like if you hit. numbers and everything else just falls. into place. and I remember like you lose confidence. and I remember actually saying to to. Stefan who um is we reporting to it ELC.

he was like an incredible person but. each time when I used to say oh like you. know this is it's not going right and I. said like I'll resign like I'm not the. person. but dad's like I need help like I was. like I can't do this like I'm I'm not. the CEO who. understands numbers in the right way who. plans like I changed my mind and again. like you think about all the things as. as a as a startup you can do things. quickly you can change if you change. your mind on a decision when you now. have many more people working on it you.

demotivate people you become chaos is. fun in a startup in a large organization. chaos can become demotivating. so then I was very fortunate that we did. bring in. um a very incredible general manager who. joined us about a year ago and he has. had such a transformation on the company. because. he can't believe just the basics we. didn't have in place and because we'd. grown so quickly and it's now to get.

that balance between you know there's. there's areas we don't want any. experience but decims when it comes to. like brand and Innovation our values. things that we are so passionate about. when it comes to supply chain and. scaling in New Markets we need. experience. so actually having the GM come in that. actually could kind of take control of. those and then actually allow me to. focus on the areas which I'm much more. passionate about which is the the brand. area our people culture belonging social.

impact it's just made a huge difference. to the business so two things that you. offering up your uh essentially. resignation from your your role when. things were a little bit tricky. it's giving me imposter syndrome. realistic. have you ever had imposter syndrome. because you know saying this quote here. about being the least qualified CEO ever. what is it from a traditional. perspective for example if I went now to.

you know another company with revenues. nearing a billion dollars a year with. 1500 employees I wouldn't be a good CEO. I think I could be a good people person. I think it could help on values on brand. now obviously there's an argument of. like a modern CEO and I think especially. for there's no one more qualified for. decim than me because of the history but. when I think about just the pure metrics. and the size of the business. it needed someone with some more.

experience and again I'm a big believer. on. you know and anyone who thinks they're. the expert at everything they're not and. I think I'm a good person at. relationships and hope you're bringing. people on for the journey hopefully. people feeling how appreciative and. truly grateful I I am that they choose. to kind of be at decimal and give their. role every day. but there are many areas that I'm not. good at all and actually having trusted. people to support that is amazing and I.

always do think myself more you know. it's kind of like the conductor of an. orchestra like being aware except I'm. not very organized so the bigger you get. then suddenly you do need someone that. maybe has got more technical skills it's. interesting because when I asked that. question about the Imposter syndrome. thing I immediately reflected upon it. and I thought. it's funny how imposter syndrome and. self-awareness can sound very very. similar. and and that's in fact from speaking to. some of your team one of the things they. repeatedly said to us was about your.

self-awareness and I even reflect going. back early to your time at Boots where. you were considering contemplating. becoming a buyer and the first thing. you're doing there is saying does that. suit my skill set and what makes me. happy I mean your team said it they said. your quote is that she isn't afraid to. to tell you and she instinctively knows. what her strengths and weaknesses are. but I think it's the only way to be. authentic that you know trying to be. something that that you're not or. something that doesn't make you happy is. not really good for anyone and I.

actually think like authenticity in. today's world I think is a value that is. is one of the most important because. otherwise you you get called out it'd be. crazy for me to say that I'm good at the. finance piece I'm not it's not a. strength but we have an incredible VP of. Finance we've got incredible general. manager that truly understands it so I. think actually just playing to your. strengths and allowing others to play to. their strengths is actually what brings. the authenticity I should probably read. this your team said she delegates a lot.

and very well she very instinctively. knows her strengths and her weaknesses. she isn't afraid to bring on knowledge. and talent for those weaknesses. her team says she's incredibly. self-aware and also she is literally a. ray of sunshine how much did you pay. Jenny in marketing 2017. um you launch the ordinary in 2016. yeah. at the end of 2016. at the end of 2016.

and then 2017 is the ordinary's breakout. year. breakout year how do you quantify that. give us an idea. the minute it launched we couldn't keep. it in stock. it was and again from. we'd come up to the ordinary was the. 11th brand that we came up with a. concept for wait that that violates the. name. but we don't Focus so we can change our.

mind wow so we kept going and what's the. Latin word for 11. I don't know maybe. maybe a company name change. with the ordinary I don't think we ever. thought it would we never dreamed it. would become what is what it's become. today. we launched the ordering our frustration. that there wasn't enough transparency in. the world of skin care. and you know we took inspiration from. the world of Pharmacy if you have a. headache you can go into a pharmacy you. buy paracetamol.

you're going to be paying you know 50p. to three pounds it's a very small window. no one can sell you paracetamol for a. hundred pounds because you know the. ingredient you know the milligram the. trust is there because the transparency. has been in that industry. that didn't exist in the world of skin. care which meant that if you walked into. a beauty Hall to pick a skincare product. you may see actually a relatively. similar formula being sold for 10 pounds. being sold for 100 pounds and actually.

not really understanding what's the. difference you know is it the marketing. you're paying for we kind of have this. assumption does like paying more mean. more but if you go into boots and you. see a new hundred pound painkiller are. you going to trust it are you just going. to take the ingredient that's safe and. effective and trusted. and I think the reason we're feeling. frustrated was because for neod. we were really using brand new. technologies that were very expensive. and no one else was using these it was. kind of true innovation. so we said well actually let's let's.

take this approach of people because. again the some of the ingredients we use. in the ordinary they may have been. around for decades that's not a bad. thing if something's been around for a. long time there's so much research done. there's so much safety and again just. like paracetamol aspirin we don't always. need new if you've actually found a. solution that has incredible effects. we presented the concept of the ordinary. to two significant retailers to have our. you know big Partners now who both said.

no to launching the brand. and this was when we were kind of still. at concept stage before we'd even um. create like produce the first product. they said it was too confusing white. boxes will collect dust you know you. need to just rename the products to be. anti-aging serum region serum. actually just what everyone else looked. like in the industry. and because we had these this umbrella. and we had different brands it gave us. the confidence to say no because you.

know we we were doing okay for ourselves. like we could cover everyone's payroll. we we kind of had traction with some of. the other brands so we said no let's. let's follow our gut which again it's a. privilege to be able to say that because. I know for so many entrepreneurs cash. flow is is a killer and it can be so. difficult to say no to a listing that. you know could be worth significant. money but we said actually no we really. believe that actually this transparency. is what's missing in the beauty industry. so you know we. the ordinary launched and it just.

honestly was a rocket ship that even. today. we in throughout our VPS supply chain. has you know we're producing 400 000. units every single day at the moment in. our Manufacturing in Toronto. we still have retailers if you go into. boots you'll still see lots of outer. stocks on the on the Shelf like we still. struggle to keep up with demand six. years later since we launched the brand. and that has been it's just been an. incredible story but I mean we look back. at 2017. we knew we needed kind of more.

money to scale so we started looking for. investment which is how many months. after launch. um oh the ordering was like three months. old. Desi M was four years old. um and again we we were doing okay like. we had some success stories not anywhere. near the scale of kind of where the. ordinary went to. we met with different private Equity. firms there was like another huge um. conglomerate who we had lots of meetings. with. and we ended up meeting with um Estee. Lauder Companies in April.

and it was eight weeks from our very. first meeting to the deal being signed. which was due diligence negotiations. everything it was especially for a. corporate with a board a public company. it was it was just this huge energy from. the moment we. came to Toronto the the kind of M A Team. then they were like we we need you to. come to New York we want you to meet. Leonard or we want to meet you meet you. for Brits here last year we want you to. kind of meet this team. and I remember seeing Fabrizio the CEO.

who have a huge amount of respect in. admiration form. and the deal was done within like 30. minutes of meeting because they just saw. this I think that energy particularly. from Brandon like Brandon and I were in. the room like just this creativity this. passion and the ordering was just. starting to kind of create this kind of. rumbles and I think they you know. ultimately they believed in the concept. they believed in what we wanted to do so. they uh the deal signed in June they.

became a minority investor they they. took 29 of the company. and I actually you know with Jesse and. today we have had more time with ELC. than without ELC ELC the Estee Lauder. Companies okay. when Acquisitions happen I think. companies go from zero to a hundred. percent you know we're at 70 they they. own 76 now with decim and it will go to. 100 and next summer. and actually that process will have been. seven years which actually is one I.

think quite a forward I haven't seen. many deals like that done I think. between kind of a startup and and you. know a larger company but actually it's. just been this amazing. different chapters of us both getting to. know each other learning each other's. strengths I think having a lot of. respect for you know where where we need. help and where we kind of need to be. left alone and so actually it's just. been this really nice journey and you. know decim we're in our 10th year this.

year I'm in six years of those we've had. the partnership of Estee Lauder. Companies 29 they took and I it's. rumored the valuation was about 1.5. billion. uh in so in the the last. in the 2021 investment uh okay right. yeah it was I think valued at 2.2. billion US Dollars and at that early. stage I'm trying to figure out for your. four years into decim Estee Lauder put. some money in what was the valuation at. that point when they took the 29 it.

would have been about 160 million okay. Jesus okay. okay super interesting. I mean it's a it's a very quick. um trajectory relative to most companies. in that space to achieve those. valuations in such a space of time we. move on then from 2017 to 2018. um. and this is really where Brandon's. Behavior started to change. it truly happened what felt like. overnight so at the the end of 2017. so so we we close the investment in the.

summer and again the ordinary at the end. of 2017 is it's a year old it's having. this incredible. just people are warming to it people are. loving the concept you know I always. think the audience is like a community. brand because it really was. spread through Word of Mouth. endorsements. and I remember my husband and I we went. to New Zealand and Australia for for. kind of the the Christmas break. and then I remember getting this call. from from Brandon saying.

you know you need to go straight to the. airport with what it like he was like. have you got your passport I said yes he. said you go straight to the airport now. book a first-class flight come straight. to Toronto on the next fly turn your. phone off turn your emails he was just. like calm down let's let's be relaxed. but you need to come immediately. so he didn't tell you why no but I could. just sense it was an entirely different. person I was speaking to all of a sudden. over that over that break in the.

holidays I mean the flight from. Australia to Toronto I think I was on. the plane now traveling for about 20. hours I cried the entire way because I. knew something really bad was happening. and I guess to just kind of towards the. end of 2017 and again I have to say. Brandon is someone who. he he would have like one drink in the. month like he barely drank. as far as I'm only we spent so much time. together like we didn't do drugs was. just uh he was high on energy and happy.

he's just drinking diet coke and eating. fries with ketchup type person. towards the end of 2017 he'd become. intrigued I think by magic mushrooms and. just kind of. this idea of you know can you access. different parts of your brain and again. this was just something like in. Amsterdam where it's legal and it's kind. of just this. almost just this inquisitive actually. how does how does the Mind work. and I knew he'd planned to go to. Amsterdam over a new year to kind of.

experiment with some of his learnings on. kind of mushrooms and in different. dosages. and and I'm someone who's quite. anti-drugs like I've always been kind of. I like to be well behaved I don't like. to kind of break and break any rules. um in in those senses. and I just had this awful feeling and. I came back to Toronto and he summoned. you know if around 10 of us to have this. meeting in The Distillery straw which. was one of our audacium stores in.

Toronto's that we we closed for the day. and everything had changed. and. it was just like talking to a stranger. he had this like coldness in his eyes. and he'd gone from someone who you know. the second you see him there'd be hugs. there was just so much warmth you know. all of his emails would have hearts on. it was just kind of all of this love in. in messages and kind of just being. it's just this almost kind of zoned out. cold person.

that suddenly almost felt like. kind of just had this like. it's like he didn't. understand there was no understanding. anymore between him and any of us. he spoke around things where. you know we've we were too caught up now. in the concept of time so for example he. said to me like that the next day when. you know with me for coffee and you know. our routine for the previous four years. has been.

he texted me he's like I'll pick you up. at 7am. would you go to a coffee shop we'd get. you know breakfast and head to the. office and he suddenly was like there's. no time anymore I'm gonna meet you in. the coffee shop tomorrow but we don't. need to tell each other a time we'll. just be there when we're supposed to be. there. and I remember finding it really hard. because he truly was is such a genius. and a visionary. and this has happened so quickly and I. remember like ringing ringing Sean and. saying like does he does he have a point. like are we too caught up in time like.

is this just like are we taking things. the wrong way. so I had a lot of confusion just around. like how can something change so quickly. and again this is someone who you know. over the four or five years of being. like insanely close to him you know we I. was in going to Toronto at this point. for like three weeks out of the month. and we'd have every dinner together. breakfast together lunch together every. weekend together. and never seeing any episodes of of.

mental health or anything changing so. suddenly have this drastic change. of someone you loved but someone. suddenly who feels like he's completely. closing the door to you and kind of. pushing you out this wasn't a different. person who was angry shouting crying. scary it was suddenly very cold to. everyone. and then. so where everyone's very confused very. upset. and then there's business things that.

start to happen. that make no sense that are actually. quite mean you know canceling a brand on. Instagram a big partnership we had done. with someone. canceling a retailer so he went on. Instagram and told them said to your. following on Instagram that this Brand's. no longer going to exist so before. telling them yeah so we'd spend all of. this time with Dr esho uh building this. brand I need Doctor yeah and then it. canceled like tijon found out on. Instagram with everyone else that this.

brand that he'd put all this passion and. energy in was ended retailers were ended. it became it was just horrible so I did. challenge him and what happened when I. challenged him was I got a meanest. meanest response around how I just don't. understand him of all the people I I. should understand. and just yeah and be like you look back. and like nothing was making any sense. and then I got fired because again and. he wasn't technically allowed to like. you know you need board approval and all.

of these things but there was there was. no Russian rational actions at this time. so this this just accelerated so quickly. and then it's so difficult because then. anyone who's trying to help gets pushed. out. then everyone's and again like in the. background I can because it's all of. these early team members like everyone. wants to help him and protect him and I. was like what do we do and you know. that's the hardest thing about. you know mental health and drug abuse. which then like Circle together.

But ultimately when it's affecting. someone's brain. they can't necessarily recognize that. themselves and someone said to me. it's like you're speaking polish to them. you may think you're speaking English a. Common Language there is no. understanding in that conversation of. what each other is saying. and actually that that did start to make. sense. but it was just very difficult and I. think you know again I got fired in. February so like a month into this.

and it's been the worst month of my life. like truly like horrendous like so. emotionally difficult what happened in. that break do you know have you got any. suspicions. yeah I think he's well yeah he was very. curious and I think he he took. everything to an extreme and I think. he'd been reading a lot around. psychedelics and kind of how to access. different parts of your brain and I. think he experimented a lot during that. break and do you think that triggered.

some kind of psychotic. episode yeah so on that point about. being fired yeah how were you fired. I knew it was coming wow why. because he'd I'd gone from being we were. inseparable so I was suddenly pushed out. of everything excluded from conversation. conversations emails he came to London. he was in London at the time when I when. I got fired and again when he'd landed.

in London from the minute he landed to. the minute he left we would be together. and I I didn't I barely saw him how did. that feel. so hurtful because hurtful and confusing. and just really hard and. and I guess you have like a whole team. who are like what's happening everyone. is scared because it's a very strong. personality who now could take anything. anyone in the team said the wrong way. and kind of someone could be at the end. of quite. you know an explosion of anger which.

again was never there before. so it's just a very difficult situation. of one where you just you don't even. understand it which I think is what. makes it so hard. but I'd also I think at that point we. didn't maybe know the extent of how. how things were going to spiral from. there or how mentally and well he was. because I mean. six weeks earlier he'd been he'd been. the Brandon like we all knew and loved. so it was such a quick turnaround and.

change. and I remember getting a call from from. the the person who ran our HR at the. time. and I remembered saying like I know like. he wants to fire me. and obviously she said yeah and then um. and I remember just like crying my eyes. out actually at the time. the um. yes I'm from Estee Lauder Companies who. was on the M A Team. who's based in New York.

um. he was in London at the time. and it went to meet him. I know I'm just saying like I'm scared. because I don't know what's happening. and this is something it's just. entirely changed. and I don't know what to do to help him. and I remember then you know the. confusion of. someone's now acting. it doesn't matter what Agreements are in. place this is now someone acting. irrationally.

but we've got to act in a certain way. because it's someone who is. so unpredictable in the way. and again I think at this point I hadn't. really realize how bad things were going. to be and you know probably things like. maybe it is me like maybe I'm not the. right person to be there anymore and. maybe for whatever reason like he thinks. I don't believe in the vision or. things have just changed. my husband who's like the most. supportive person in the world but also.

very calm takes such a like relaxed. approach to anything like nothing is a. problem to him in his world in a very. positive way. he like booked as a holiday he was like. let's just get away like. you know it's been like a very hard. month right now Brendan like doesn't. want you we can't change that so let's. just focus on just like taking a moment. just to kind of. reflect. um and obviously I'd always wanted. children we'd be married for a few years.

at this time I'd never wanted them last. I wasn't like the busyness of decim. because I wanted the time to enjoy being. you know a mum of young children so. we're like less. let's try and have a baby. so I got pregnant in the March and. and a month later yeah and um. but then at that point things were. spiraling with Brandon and you know. abusive emails were being sent. uh targeting everyone he was firing.

because so many people within the. business. firing people and copying the whole. company in copying retailers in pressing. and it became clear like things were. really unwell. um and I remember. I think being about six weeks pregnant. I was being targeted on like some of. these emails now I'm thinking.

let me announced it on Instagram. something like that happens. you know someone's not rational like. no good human being does that to someone. and then it became really hard because. I was still in this situation of loving. him so much wanting to help him feeling.

just not knowing what to do. also having like the company like having. everyone started coming to me asking me. like what should we do because you've. got someone. saying things that make no sense and. being you know he was just very very. unwell so I was still trying to help. people in the background keep things. going with the business. let's see you know trying to be in the. early stages of pregnancy which now see.

the whole world knew and. and it was just really really hot. and I remember when. he first got sectioned feeling such a. sense of relief. that he was finally gonna get the. treatment he needed to get better. and it was actually in in London when he. got sectioned for the first time and. then he he was out five days later. and then that was the start of you know. over that 2018. he got section five.

times across London across. Canada Across America and each time. would just get released a short period. after. and then that's when I started to. to almost kind of you you lose the hope. of like how can how can we help this. person when. he keeps. getting into these terrible like you. know to get sectioned you're in a. terrible situation for authorities to. actually come in and remove you for your.

own safety. but then this would just happen again. and it's it's almost like there wasn't. even a connection between like the. countries and the medical systems and. and kind of like how that all works it's. confusing but he. he has in the in the June you know he. was sending me videos crying and just. saying like I need you back I don't know. what I've done like I'm so sorry and I. remember feeling like. I could I can't help if I'm not there. maybe if I'm with him maybe I can help.

him. so I went back. and the first week I went back we went. to Morocco because it was like you know. we need to plan like we need to get the. business thing sorted again and and. actually. it felt like a normalish conversation. so I remember feeling like you know. maybe. maybe things can get better and I. remember the week in Morocco just things. were worse than ever things had got even. worse at that time I'd been away.

and it's just. it's a helpless situation and. I have so much empathy for anyone who. or want the people who struggle with. with mental health and addiction but. also for the people surrounding them. because it's a very toxic environment to. be in one because you're you're you're. being abused. but secondly. you're losing the love person and. thirdly you just.

feel like you can't help because again. with so many other health issues. when you're not battling with the brain. there's more acceptance of treatment to. get better but that just doesn't exist. in in the same way. I can tell how much you loved him unless. he was like and this is what I find so. hard he really was so kind. and like would do anything and again. like you know when I talk about Desi and. being a family in his estate in his will.

every single beneficiary is a decim. employee like that's that's this family. bond that was just so strong so just to. see that go and again like everything. was played out on Instagram Brandon was. doing all of these posts in terrible. situations. and. it's a very hard line I mean we'd we. talked to Instagram like this it's such. a free it's such a difficult you have. free speech you have someone like it's.

it's a platform like people can can post. what they want you know some things. would get removed others wouldn't. but it was just an awful situation to be. in. and I think everyone just had such a. huge desire to help him and like in this. time period I mean even like essay Lord. companies were behind the scenes they. were so supportive to us but again you. have you know you go on Instagram you. see all these comments why is no one. helping him what are you all doing. and again it's it's so hard because.

people. don't see that situation of it is pretty. much impossible to help. and then you have people that say look. someone has to reach Rock Bottom like. they have to just reach Rock Bottom. until they get better. so then in in October. Brendan had done an Instagram post. basically saying he was shutting down. the entire company and there would be no. more decim. and obviously that was the point when. the the shareholders had to step in. because suddenly you know there's I.

think at that point we had 800 employees. like there was everyone's jobs on the. line and and again you think look maybe. maybe this is the the kind of bottom. point he needs to reach to actually. understand he needs to get help. so that's when the court order happened. to remove Brendan from the company which. again is. an incredibly hard situation because no. one wants to remove the founder who they. care so much about and you know a. Founder who is such a Visionary and is.

the brand like do you feel like he is. being forcibly removed from his own. company is very difficult but you've. also got a situation where everything. was Publix that every email sent had the. whole company on CC had all the. journalists had all of our retailers had. customers on. Instagram posts were obviously going to. everyone so you're also living this out. in public. which I think also makes it a lot harder. so in October he got removed as the CEO.

reflecting on what you said to me at. this earlier in the conversation about. him wanting to keep the family together. and be part of the family based on his. own early experiences maybe his own um. Family upbringing that must have been. particularly painful for him seems like. he'd designed designed this company to. be a family and that's clearly one of. the most important things for him so for. him to be ousted from his quote unquote. family must have been tremendously. painful. did you ever learn about his early years. did you ever learn about his his own.

background his family yeah I actually. interesting because. for how close I was to him. when he became unwell I actually learned. how much I didn't know about him. and I think. you know he just. I think he had a lot of challenges of. never feeling accepted for who he was. which makes me so sad because. me as a person. and especially like the destiny that we.

have now like we truly accept anyone and. love anyone it doesn't matter like who. you choose to love where you're from. like you belong to us and like we are. grateful if you want to be part of. family you are you are the family. so I find it hard that he never felt. that except he never felt like he could. be his true self. which I think I only learned more when. he became unwell. how. um. like he'd had Riad he'd had this.

incredible life partner for 10 years. that I didn't even know about. a romantic partner yeah. husband. a boyfriend pretty much yeah and again. like those things when I mean that's a. big thing to hide from someone why was. he hiding it. well I can only think that was him. feeling like he wouldn't be accepted for. it and I mean because it's a man yeah. and I mean well in the world today but I.

mean especially the beauty like it's. I'm so proud of the the you know the the. diverse team we have like he would have. been so accepted but I mean he was from. Iran I think he maybe just had. well I don't know I can't say the. reasons yeah and but he clearly never. felt like he could share with the world. who he truly wasn't I mean that's that's. a huge. thing to carry what about his parents so. his mother died when he was very young. and I think he had a challenge.

relationship with his father but again I. only learned a lot when he became ill. and I also have a battle with. if he didn't want to tell me. he didn't want people to know so there's. kind of a balance of. you know I have so many things that gosh. I wish I could ask him. what are those things. about his childhood about who he is. about why he felt the need to keep. things secret. and then also just to understand because.

you know people say to me like like did. he have any signs of mental health. challenges before. and and again it depends what you. consider traits of mental health but no. I mean he was eccentric and he was you. know high intensity in many things that. I think are are traits often our. Founders I mean I would love to. understand more. like how do we support people with. mental health because again I mean for. someone to be sectioned five times why.

was he sectioned. he would just be in very bad situations. please come and get involved and then. drugs drugs and again it's so hard to. diagnose. um because yeah they both kind of. spiraled spiraled each other quite. dramatically he was doing meth in the UK. I read as well but and then he got. arrested from yeah and and again my my. limited understanding of drugs but I. think crystal meth is about as as bad as. it gets I think in in many ways.

and so then in October he got removed. and again I remember feeling like maybe. maybe this will show him like be the. push he needs to to get help. but it wasn't things just kept spiraling. and again what's so difficult in these. situations is at this point I think he's. pushed pretty much everyone away who. really loved him and he's now because. you have to remember he also had funds. he had you know resources. which meant you know at this point he'd.

was now flying private jets everywhere. and he was kind of surrounded by people. that I had never met before and who I. don't think were particularly good. people for him to have around but I mean. you don't have control over another. human being and I think that's a thing. that I really struggled with was how. much everyone wanted to help him and. loved him. but at some point you know so by October. I mean we've had 10 months of. so much hurt. so much trying to help him so much you.

know you have moments when you think. you're getting through and maybe like. this is gonna like be a change and then. things just fall down again. so he. then when you've got sort of 700. employees takes to Instagram and. announces that he's shutting down the. company. and did he mean that yeah I think he did. again I don't know if he meant it or if. he was. just wanting to be removed and almost.

you know if that was the reason he was. kind of doing some of these behaviors. there had been things had been very. extreme. and I sometimes don't know if he would. have thought like you know what else do. I need to do for someone to just take me. out of this. so then obviously at that point you know. the the board the shelves there's no. choice but to now remove Brandon from. from the company did they contact you.

after that so yeah they they privately I. mean before the the lawsuit and all that. stuff started they'd said listen Nicola. we're gonna have to do something here. yeah and I mean throughout this process. there are many conversations because. again you know every shareholder loved. Brandon and cared for him and like. everyone's a good person and it's like. everyone wants to help someone that. they've seen this Brilliance in and kind. of seeing this quick quick downfall and. I think the Viewpoint was always how do.

we protect decim so that branding can. get better and come back so it was. always just a temporary order. um and obviously they rang me because it. would name me as becoming Soul CEO and. kind of the interim period. and again you know I had these thoughts. that maybe maybe this is what is needed. for him to actually. get the help because sometimes they say. you know you have to lose everything to. hit rock bottom to then be accepting. that you need help but that that didn't. happen and I think when.

when it when. the court order happened in October. which is what three days after he. announces he's shutting down the company. or was it more. it was a very quick period I can't. remember exactly but yeah I think it was. within days. but then things just seem to keep. spiraling and obviously you know at that. point in October I was seven months. pregnant and so I remember I had like. one last travel before I was at the kind. of no no flying stage so. I went to Toronto and actually the first.

thing I did was bringing back a lot of. the incredible team members that had. gone during the period of 2018. so I need to pause there because that's. pretty astounding you're seven months. pregnant. the founder has been ousted by a huge. like multinational billion dollar. conglomerate and you're thrust in as CEO. of the company of 700 people who have. just gone through. chaos. what do you do day one.

um. so so assemble the team so you know the. key people who were Incredibly Close to. Brandon who had also been fired and kind. of pushed out in in all of this chaos. they needed to come back to the company. because they were also co-founders they. were also people who had been there from. the beginning understood the values and. we desperately needed. I remember going for dinner with Stephen. and say like I need you to come back so. Stephen was a CFO at the time and then.

we came back as a CEO and again like we. just needed to get organization because. I mean in this period of 2018. you have to remember the. our demand for the products went through. the roof because I mean there was a lot. of noise around what was happening and. did it help sales massively which is. frustrating but you know. because we had such good products. that was also in the conversation but it. was like have you seen what's happening.

have you seen this Instagram have you. seen this sounded like it's you know. I'll be honest with you the only time. I'd had because I'm I'm not a buyer of. the products the ordinary products the. only time I'd heard about the brand was. I heard a story when I was in New York I. think in 2017 2018 when I was living in. New York about this founder that had. like hijacked the Instagram and was. posting like a dead sheep he posted like. a picture of a dead sheep or something. and I remember clicking on this is so. funny actually I clicked onto the. Instagram to like see what was going on. it's kind of like being nosy or whatever. and I was like.

that branding's cool. so for the last five years I've known it. from that first moment but I remember. thinking that branding is really on the. money. it was only one a year old. crazy so actually. you know many people's first interaction. with the brand was probably through you. know being told have you seen this. person on Instagram have you seen this. breakdown that's happening in public. so that was and I think that's one thing. I find very hard is that Brandon was.

an incredible human being he was so kind. he was such a Visionary he was so high. energy he truly was a genius. that I find it hard that people didn't. really know him from before and actually. so many people only learn about him. through that period. which is very sometimes difficult to. accept but it is also the reality of. just the the situation and social media. and the appetite for controversy that I. think kind of exists today.

did when the lawsuit was happening and. he was being ousted was there a point. during that that couple of days that. period where he called you. he became one you couldn't. off he didn't. the court like you know he was obviously. should have. in normal world like would have a. representation and would you know he was. just just finished. so you come into the office you assemble. the team you pull the people back yeah. and and again so then for those next.

couple of months you know we. we did hit like Brandon would sometimes. be parked outside in front of our office. in Toronto and again you have to. remember this is people who love him. but now there's a character who is. is still acting at times. um you know frustrated. upset. and it's just a very difficult and. environment to be in you've got a. responsibility now a CEO. you've got this guy parked outside the.

office you're trying to focus the team. there's a guy parked outside the office. who's capable of causing chaos to the. company to the team members the. employees you know really not you know. stable. surely you've got a responsibility to. call the police or something or get him. out there you know is that there's a. conflict of interest. it's such a hot because you try. everything. and actually you have to remember as. well during this period I was back in. the UK. so actually it was even harder because I. mean at this point I'm like eight months.

pregnant nine months pregnant so hearing. this but actually not being in Toronto. to actually be there in head office with. the team. and again that's where Stephen and kind. of other members were incredible. and again it's difficult because you. know Stephen would like there to be a. conversation with Brandon and then you. get to the point where people just. believing out the back exit to kind of. because it's such a horrible situation I. mean he's he's not doing anything wrong. sitting in his car on the road so it's. kind of you couldn't even ring the.

police unless he was actually acting. abusive but sitting in the car alone. like were you not worried. everything was more just sadness. of like how he would be feeling at that. time and then you just get frustrated at. yourself because you know I think we're. we're so used to figuring out the answer. of figuring out Solutions so then when. you're in this heartbreaking situation. of you know trying to be nice trying to. be there trying to ask if he's okay.

being away being distant. nothing works and actually that feels. very hard I think to to actually accept. especially as someone who you know I. like to find Solutions there's a problem. like we find the answer. so it was a hard period. and then my daughter was born December. 29th just four days after after. Christmas. and then I remember in the January. getting a message so so Dion had the.

Press had got in touch with us say is it. true Brandon's died we had heard nothing. at this point and I remember thinking. surely not like. we wouldn't be hearing from a reporter. asking us the question so I said to John. like I'll ask Stephen to see if he can. hear anything. Stephen went to. the police station who confirmed they'd. found his body and he'd passed away. I remember Stephen ringing me and I was. breastfeeding my daughter at the time.

and just feeling this shot because. you just never think that's actually the. ending that's going to come like I think. I always did just think at some point he. would get better. and actually not within a year. someone could go from like being the. person you know and you love and who is. normal and then for them to a year later. that this this. is such a fast downwards Pirates. happened that that's kind of had that.

ending. and then you also I then realized that I. do think his partner knew. I don't think any new like any of our. destined family like no one knew other. than that reporter but if the Press know. that means quite quickly everyone's. going to know. then having to go through this process. of bringing his partner ringing like the. people that I knew were Incredibly Close. personally to him. ringing Estee Lauder Companies like.

telling the people that had to know I. mean quite quickly having the email. drafted because also you know this press. inquiry has gone to our General Media at. decim inbox which means the team are. already knowing that this inquiry is out. there. so suddenly it's like okay gosh like I. need everyone to hear this in in the. right order. so trying to like make those phone calls. send those messages. do you process it yourself. no I think I went into.

I remember just the shock of. I really didn't think it was going to. end in that way. all that soon. and then I think it was just okay. let's like. go through the motions like who do we. need to tell like how do we handle this. from here. and then. remember like then be like I need to get. meal or a passport because we flew to. Toronto five like five days later.

um. and it yeah just go into like. how do we because again it's not just a. a company that's left a Founder is a. family it's a friend it's someone who's. so close to all of us. and it's also hard because it's just. such a. just a tragic story and a tragic ending. and you know and I think that's. sometimes like our family bond and. especially the bond that we still have. now so many people who were there at the. beginning but I mean we lived through. this like we had this year.

of all messaging each other around this. has just happened what do you think we. should do how do we handle this. situation like we live that pain. together which I think is is probably. why there is a bond that I think is. still incredibly strong that wouldn't. normally exist because. it does strengthen when you go through. those. tough times together. he was he was on his own when he passed. away. yeah he he posted Instagram videos on on.

that night. so you know we we know from various. things that he was obviously still in. this cycle of drug abuse and then kind. of Mental Health. we don't know. no one was there he he fell off the. balcony I don't believe it was suicide. with an intention to end his life. because. he'd have I believe he'd have left him. now he'd have sent an email he was he. was big on words like he always had. something to say.

that I find it hard to think that he. would. and again you know even if it was videos. like there was there was always kind of. communication coming from him. but I find it hard to believe he would. purposefully end things without having a. lust kind of voice in the world. but again you know when you are in that. situation. I don't know if he was sat on the edge. and kind of.

felt he was a high floor apartment there. was kind of a huge storms and winds that. night but I mean none of us were there. so we'll we'll never truly know what. happened. as well as your job to have sort of. communicating this to your team and. dealing with the ram the after effects. of his passing. when do you when do you process it this. is someone you love this is your friend. that's you've just found out has died. this is your co-founder your former.

co-ceo someone you've been on a. Incredible Journey with when do you have. a chance to stop and just really um work. through the emotions. I actually don't know if I ever have him. into this. hard one you know. work was this year was so busy because. we were just. gone through this year of turmoil where. demand has gone through the roof yet. behind the scenes. you know people have done an amazing job.

at holding things together but it'd also. been a year of. no leadership kind of decisions being. made in the wrong way a lot of chaos. there. so you suddenly have this situation of. like there's a lot to fix there's a lot. to sort out and I'm and I'm not talking. even from like culture and emotions but. just actually from like business. practicalities because this is a brand. that's exploding with this kind of. soaring demand that's had this chaos.

that now needs stability. in these kind of all of this love put. back back into it and back into the team. and people and then obviously I also. have a newborn baby at this time so I. feel like. almost just that period since then like. things have just been so busy and. I'm just a big believer and like there. are there would you pick the times in. your life when you're ready to focus on. something and I know there's a period in. my life I want to sit down with a.

psychologist and just go through. everything that happened to have a. better understanding of it. but I feel like that's it needs to be at. the right time when I'm ready and. actually to really like I'm someone that. when I put my energy into something. it becomes such a big focus and you know. I want to do it right and I know at the. moment with everything going on I. wouldn't have the right time to dedicate. to it and also probably partly healing. like it's still you know it'll be five. years in in January since he passed away.

it's coming to a time when I think it. may be. gets easier but it's also still very raw. because I think. it's hard to say if it's regrets but you. always have those feelings of. is there anything different we could. have done because you feel so helpless. about how things just spiraled. that's what I was I was I was going to. ask is upon getting that news the.

people often talk about this when they. talk about the passing of a parent or. something they look back on the. relationship from A New Perspective now. because as you said in your own words. you didn't ever envisage it would end. that way so when it does end that way. your perspective on the situation can. shift to what you as you said you know. thoughts of regret or words unsaid or. things that maybe we could have done and. and that can be quite um. that can consume one's thoughts was.

there a lot of that during that time. because you know in the year 2018 I'd. had a lot of reflections of maybe we. weren't as close as I thought because. you know if he could have this life. partnering and all of these things and. not even feel comfortable to tell me. then maybe I thought we were this. closest that we actually weren't you. start to kind of question those things. and actually the the area which I then. kind of got the Comfort back that it was.

genuine and it was the love that I felt. that he he felt was. when we when we got a copy of of his his. estate of his will of his kind of last. wishes. when it's set around the decision on. what should happen with his body. it first went to his partner of 10 years. and then it said in an absence of that. person I want Nicola to decide what. happens to my body. and actually that was a very comforting. thing because I mean there's nothing. more personal than to try to trust.

someone with if something happens to me. this person can decide. what happens to like my remains. so that then actually gave me the. Comfort the like. it was genuine it was a true love like. he did see me as that other than his his. partner like his kind of. best friend his partner someone who was. incredibly close who he would. feel like that was the right person to.

make that decision so I'd I'd kind of. gone on this cycle of feeling you know. very pushed out very targeted very. maybe maybe it wasn't all real maybe I. was just a colleague and kind of it was. just business to actually know it was. family it was love so. I kind of had that reflection then I. think that gave me a lot of comfort. do you miss Brandon incredibly much. you know it's quite lonely because when. you've gone from having someone where. every decision you're you're texting.

you're together you're kind of you're. doing it together gives you the. confidence that you're going in the. right way. so it's very difficult to lose that and. you know it's like you go from a. two-parent to just one parent and you. feel responsible for this incredible. child but also a child that's growing. very fast and. you know you you want to do the best by. everyone. and it's and also like it's it's a huge. change I mean the company we are today.

is very different and you know like with. any any kind of fast growth business you. have to try and find a balance of you. know never compromising on our values. and things that are so core to our. purpose. but then finding a way that you can can. actually grow and scale and and actually. you know when. we you know early years we've never had. a strategy and it was kind of never. anything for that I thought we would do. but then obviously you go to a size that. you start thinking about these things. and it was interesting because the first.

time we did strategy. I think it's worth posing there and just. highlighting what you've just said you. had a philosophy early on where you. didn't you didn't have a company. strategy it was never planned never have. a strategy that was your ethos yeah why. uh we actually again we had all of these. slogans in our offices and one with. strategy is is also overrated and you. need to be agile as a startup and again. I think you know a big thing. Brando is a big believer in this he. always used to say we've got to be the.

small Rabbit running into the holes that. the big elephants can't get to and the. big elephants obviously been there the. big conglomerates because they've got. far more money than us far more. resources there is no point as doing. what they're doing but with far less. let's find the holes and and part of. that is again being agile I mean again. you think the ordering was the 11th. brand and as much as we had like. elements of success before then you know. the ordinary it took 11 attempts to. really get it right now a strategy can't.

plan for that because our strategy was. to keep failing until it got until we. kind of got it right. um now as you get bigger it changes. because suddenly you know you. you need to articulate things in a. different way but it was interesting. because when we did our first process of. strategy and obviously I'm still very. at this point was very unoffensive I. don't think we're a company that kind of. needs a big document Etc so it's quite. nice after we'd kind of had all these. conversations we came down to basically.

having our entire strategy was build. growth power good. that was the strategy because almost it. was and again. I'm very proud that I feel like we're. more than just a beauty company we want. to have a good impact on the world we. believe in. making incredible products but also. having a good impact on the planet you. know I believe the world of skin care. is now a better place because people. there is more transparency there's more. awareness ingredients like niacinamide I.

think there's better price points I. think there is you know we talk about. quality equality and actually within. skin care I think that's something that. now is much more accessible to people so. I I believe like we are having a good. impact and I think that businesses can. do that and you know I. like if you ever get the chance to come. to Toronto and you know I welcome anyone. to come look around our offices our. production facility because the warmth. you find from people. is unlike anywhere I've ever.

I think could exist ladies and gentlemen. as you know Zoe is now sponsoring this. podcast and I'm a proud investor in the. company and I've been going on the Zoe. Journey myself it all starts with this. home testing kit you get sent in the. post which measures your gut health your. blood sugar and your blood fat I've had. this little device this blood sugar. glucose sensor on my arm which came in. the home testing kit to understand how. all of the different foods that I eat. day to day have an impact on my body and. it's been pretty unbelievable a big. thing for me is feeling tired after I've.

eaten something and not understanding. why historically I didn't understand now. I do understand I'd been eating I think. it was like a rice stir fry with a bit. of chicken and some chili sauce in there. and I saw in my blood glucose chart on. my phone which is connected to the. device that Zoe sent me this huge Spike. and then later in the day I saw a huge. dip when I started feeling that sort of. post lunch slump and what will happen. next is Tim tells me they'll take all of. that data and give me my own. personalized Zoe scores for any food so.

I can figure out what I should be eating. and what I should avoid if I want to. avoid those afternoon slums and if you. want to get started on your Zoe Journey. with me use the code we've got an. exclusive code here CEO 10 for 10 off. and let me know how you get on when it. arrives back to the episode. if I was to ask you then again we're. looking there at like. the finished painting I want to know. the colors that went into the painting.

So how and you were there the whole time. so you got to see what what created that. end product if I'm a startup founder. listening to this now and I go okay. Nicola I'm at the very start and I want. that end product I want to be 10 years. in super successful and everyone's happy. what are the most important things for. them to understand in body and sort of. implement into their companies just. maybe like Top Line so from a business. perspective product quality is the only. way to be successful and therefore I.

mean the only reason we're now in a. position where I think we can invest so. much in sustainability social impact in. people is because if we started with. science we made the very best product. that people know they get results with. which ultimately has allowed us to grow. and again it comes back to this the more. we build growth the more we can power. good and this is a continuous Circle. that we're now in that I think is just. the bigger we get the bigger impact we. can have which I think is very powerful. and then I think from from a people.

perspective I mean any founder can now. write the new rules and again for us. it's around like belonging everyone. belongs at decim like that's our North. Star like we have so much work on how we. make people feel belong why does that. matter. um I think that was advocate here. obviously why does that matter what does. it help me be successful. because you you want humans to feel. supported to feel safe to feel trusted. to if you want to get the best from. someone and also we have such a diverse. Workforce and I mean even 50 of our team.

50 of our leadership is by POG and we. continue to kind of strive to do more. but I think that diversity like the more. different viewpoints you have in a room. the more you're going to drive. Innovation you're going to drive. creativity you're going to move things. forward and actually a favorite quote I. had of Brandon's was he said. I always just find fascinating. like people are skeptical and then one. day planes do fly and again if you think. back to like there would have been a. point where someone's saying what we can.

fly in an airplane in the sky and it's. you know like that would have been. baffling and then it happens so actually. incredible change and advances can. happen and it starts with small changes. it starts with some you know we always. say like we started as a group of just. good people having fun wanting to do the. right thing. and then it's kind of led to where we. are today. what are your non-negotiables you know.

because you're now then you're the chief. disciple of decim you're the one that. knows exactly what a decim person is how. they behave what a decim decision looks. like what deci and behavior looks like. what are your non-negotiables. and kindness. um I also always say like yeah. the right thing even when no one is. looking and for me that's like the. authenticity piece. and then that's also the difference I. think between being nice and being kind. is that actually even if someone's not. looking you're always just doing the.

right thing. caring about the small things because. actually the Small Things become the big. things over time so I think really. nurturing that. um. and just thinking differently and again. it's something where. if you're taking inspiration from the. industrial category you're already in. there's no point because you're just. gonna end up doing what everyone else is. doing you need to take inspiration from. everywhere but the industry and category.

you're playing in because you know as I. said like the ordinary inspiration came. from pharmacy from Healthcare if we took. inspiration from the world of beauty and. Skin Care we'd have just done what. everyone else is doing but with far less. resources and and kind of ability behind. us. so I think where you take inspiration. from is very important. I'm going to do a little bit of a quick. fire here. buys an interview. is going to start so correct how many. staff do you have today.

uh just shy 1500. how many stores have. you got we've got 32 of our own stores. how many of the positions in your. company are held by women. um we're over 50 percent. the vast majority of your products are. still under ten dollars. um yes our best-selling ones are. okay. um. you're the most searched skincare brand. on tick tock.

very proud of our tick tock. top you're the most popular skincare. brand in Boots. as well yeah I don't know maybe on. on.com do you know how many products you. sell a second. a lot of stuff like that. I lose track is it two a second. I have no idea yeah I don't have. anywhere I thought you had it there no. no no. CineMate it maybe two a second. um right. yeah. looking back at the career you've. covered so far.

what's the advice that you wish someone. had given you. let's say it let me say the day you met. Brandon. if I could have just ring ring your. phone goes. and it's you at. 34 years old you are 34 now yes 34 years. old. and you you got to speak to Nicola back. then on the phone 60 seconds you get to. give us some advice. stay calm always find the positive and.

everything because I think that. positivity is what's infectious and. actually makes other people. believe in what you want to do and kind. of can get you through the toughest. Times by just being calm being kind and. just. you know I have belief in the end game. like we're on this planet for such a. small amount of time some things you can. control some things you can't life isn't. fair. you have your own situation and I think. I've always found coming to things just.

with a an air of calmness has always. been the best way okay I don't get. stressed out and I think that's an. important quality. it's not easy. don't get stressed out takes a lot. what are your um what does your mother. think of everything that's happened in. your career incredibly proud. and I'm incredibly close to my mum like. I see her every week and you know what's. also been nice is she's traveled so much. with me uh you know she's so often my.

child care kind of looking after them. when we travel and you know Sean's. parents they're they're very close to. you but yeah I think she's. just just incredibly proud of how. everything's turned out and your father. passed when you were when I was 20. um and again it's it's it's very hard. because. probably see some similarities I think. between kind of what happened back then. in. I guess just the uncontrollability and. the.

um ability to help the situation because. you know up until the age of well when I. was 18 like two years before he passed. away I mean he was. healthy he was well he liked to drink. but you know. not to the point of being an alcoholic. and then very quickly things spiraled. so he loved being a radio presenter and. like that was his life. but I think it is a hard industry where. suddenly you're not current anymore and.

there's younger presenters coming. through. and he'd you know he'd gone from. presenting on on. the the radio station for. literally. 25 years you know he started at 18. and he's been very successful in kind of. the. in you know the big kind of South. Yorkshire radio station and suddenly it. was taken away from him I think that. created just a spiral and you know he. also I think had challenges with his.

upbringing. and alcohol just became a coping. mechanism and again I think it just. both times it surprised me how quickly. my father had gone.

that wouldn't be a guest if I wasn't. cracking. my grandma died on Monday as well it's. just extra one if all the emotions. okay yeah we're gonna get some tissues. jacket you've got some tissues there. thank you.

the conversation around around addiction. we don't um. it's taken us some time to understand. its relationship with mental health. right in in that situation what you. describe is the like the loss of your. father's purpose and how that. um turned him to alcohol and then within. a short period of time I'm guessing. there was an alcohol related. death yeah. when you were 20. the world wasn't it certainly wasn't in. a place that's sort of 14 15 years ago.

wasn't in a place where it would have. understood. alcoholism in the same way. were you were you able to understand the. causes of your father's Behavior at that. time. I was I felt like. I could understand it. as in in the way of. I remember one of the doctors saying to. us. because he was in hospital quite a few. times like you have to treat this as a. terminal illness because. even if he gets better it's there and it.

can come back within the brain at any. time when it's a severe addiction. so I think I kind of. understood what was happening again. found it incredibly difficult of being. helpless in terms of. can you go from someone who you love and. who loves you and who would do anything. for you and for their family. just something again this not talking. the same language and again it's very.

hard I think with addiction. alcohol abuse because. you find it hard like why can't they. just stop like they love us like why why. do they want to be in this situation and. again it takes like the rethinking. around like they can't help it like this. is an illness just like cancer like. other diseases like their brain is ill. and they can't think of anything other. than. how they can get an English drink and I.

think it's just a heart. it's a hard thing to accept feeling. helpless whether there isn't a. medication you know. it came in this in the UK you can't put. someone into rehab unless they want to. go but they've got their brain battling. with them they won't allow them to make. that decision. and when everything happened with. Brandon. it was like history repeating itself. again you watched someone you love. slowly slip away into.

yeah it was. I guess the one of the differences with. my. with my dad he never became he was still. very loving. and kind even though you know he. couldn't stop. was I think with Brandon it was. things were much more. it was more anger and it was kind of. more. my dad always still had the love and the.

kindness coming through even when he was. ill. were you were you able to process that. your father passing did you did you take. the time did you get the support did you. have. any anyone there to speak to about that. really. I think I've always just. I just keep busy and actually I'm a very. I'm generally a very like positive calm.

happy like. I truly have a high level of happiness. in my life despite all that tragedy. has happened. and I get so much joy and so much loving. like I have so much support from my. husband and my mum and my sister and you. know some of the best friends in the. world who've been my best friend since. we were in school. that I've just. is it strange to go through everything. that's happened but actually still feel. very just secure.

I love to wish I think you know I often. say this like despite what happened I. mean I had 18 years if probably a very. boring but very stable loving happy. childhood that I think really does set. the foundations for later life. you've got one wonderful husband you've. got two gorgeous wonderful beautiful. children they're happy and healthy and.

then you've got 1 500 children. a decim. um who are doing just great as well. how are you feeling. um honestly very privileged very lucky. I mean to be. like 34 and I feel like actually. I've accomplished so many of my dreams. like having my children having an. incredible husband having an amazing.

home an amazing life together. and then also like I mean how lucky that. at 24 decim came into my life. and I've met the most incredible people. I have best friends now from the company. I get. I live in like such an exciting world. like you know I get to work with one of. the best Brands and companies in the. world and and also actually I like to. think influence. and set the the footprint for actually. what business can be like it can be a. place where where leaders can be kind.

they don't you know again if you think. around business from 20 30 years ago and. probably the polar opposite to what. would be expected to be a leader you. don't have a big glass box you don't sit. in your own big glass office above. everybody else I heard you hot desk your. team told me you hot desk with them I've. never had my own desk in any office at. sem probably the only person to never. have my own desk and actually I love it. first of all because I'm traveling and. you know whenever I'm somewhere I always.

want to spend time with people so. normally I am in meetings I want to be. in just getting to know everyone and if. I do have time on my desktop desking is. far better like who's not in today or go. sit in there just because then you get. to talk to another team you get to be. around people and so I've always kind of. just enjoyed the the floating piece of. just getting to know everyone in the. team. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast as you know because clearly you. just said you'd watched an episode. before so. this is um. this will not be a surprise we have a.

closing tradition where the last guest. leaves a question for the next guest. this is a bit of a long one. um the question is. ah okay I've been trying to figure out. what this word is that's why I was. mumbling around because I was like I. can't okay stasis is a lie. in every moment we are either. progressing towards the better self. within or regressing. so the question is. who are you becoming.

I think I'm becoming. someone who is just accepting. of who they are. and actually just being very content. and being happy with who I am and I. think you know. like people always ask me like and I. have no plans to leave Destiny but. people who say life after Desi and what. do you want to do and they always don't. believe when they say like I just want. to be a mum like that's so important to.

me like. and again I talk about chapters in life. like if that's that period. that I get one chance at life to do then. I want to prioritize that and I think. you know it sometimes. people. associate well because you've been like. business and you've been driven that. becomes a conflict and that but it. doesn't because also I think the. qualities. that make me want to dedicate so much to. my children and being a good mum I. probably also would actually mix the. culture what it is at decim today.

so I think just accepting that actually. we're all unique and. I am very content at this moment in life. I feel. I don't particularly have any regrets. I want to know more about if things. could have been differently in this you. know the the bad situations that have. happened. but I think because I've always feel. like I've approached things with. kindness. that I've been true to myself that.

actually that's something that I kind of. want to continue to be. Well you certainly do embody kindness. and you are you know your team described. you as being aware of sunshine that. isn't my experience of you that is also. my experience of your husband who I met. a year ago. um who's also a wonderful human being. um. thank you thank you for so much thank. you for the inspiration you really are. an example that in order to be a. successful leader in business you don't. need to be what we used to see in movies.

which is like screaming and shouting at. people and throwing things from the. glass box and being cruel and being. selfish and and being a leech on society. or the Earth or whatever it might be you. you are one of those shining examples. that that success and kind aren't. mutually exclusive in fact in clearly in. your case from speaking to your team and. seeing how much they adore you it's. additive to the to the outcome of. success it doesn't deduct from it but. your story as well the the it should be. a movie and I'm sure you're gonna I'm.

sure it will be a movie someday or at. least something an incredible incredible. series of books is one that is so. incredible so inspiring so. um. you know uh Unthinkable at times and the. way that you share it with such wisdom. and vulnerability is going to induce so. much. light and inspiration and. um Liberation and everyone that's. listened today so sometimes when I do. this podcast I realize that I have to.

thank you on behalf of the listener. because I realized the listener is at. home and they are going to DM you and. all that stuff because they do that a. lot which is fantastic but I would. really like to thank you on behalf of. everyone that listened to this. conversation because um I know how many. of them in so many ways that you'll. never understand you'll see maybe one. percent of it you'll never understand. how much you've helped and you don't. have to you don't have to come and do. these things and share the way you do. and open yourself up like this you do. have a choice in that and you've chosen. to do that and I know why you've chosen. to do that and it's because of the value.

that you've shared today so thank you. Nicola it's been a pleasure to meet you. um you're very much the reason why I do. what I do here is to find the stories. like this and to share them with the. world and you'll continue to inspire me. for many years to come through all those. chapters of your life that you described. amazing. thank you for listening. right now I'm incredibly busy I'm. running my fund where we're investing in. slightly later stage companies I've got. my Venture business where we invest in. early stage companies got a third web. out in San Francisco in New York City. where we've got a big team of about 40.

people and the company's growing very. quickly flight story here in the UK I've. got the podcast and I am days away from. going up north to film Dragon's Den for. two months and if there's ever a point. in my life where I want to stay focused. on my health but it's challenging to do. so it is right now and for me that is. exactly where he all comes in allowing. me to stay healthy and have a. nutritionally complete diet even when my. professional life descends into chaos. and it's in these moments where heels. rtds become my right hand man and save.

my life because when my world descends. into professional chaos and I get very. very busy the first thing that tends to. give way is my nutritional choices so. having heal in my life has been a. lifesaver for the last four or so years. and if you haven't tried heal yet which. is I'd be shocked you must be living. under a rock if you haven't yet give it. a shot coming into summer things getting. busy Health matters always. RTD is there to hold your hand. [Music].

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