Andrew Huberman: You Must Control Your Dopamine! The Shocking Truth Behind Cold Showers!

I'll tear up if I talk about it, because. things were going well in my life and. then one day just crack, everything came crashing down. And um. and I've learned that friendship is. super powerful. I had people descending. on my home to be with me. You know, one. day I just like look up and Lex is in. the room. And they sat with me, picked. me up and they reminded me who I am. and um.

you know, I I've just such immense. gratitude for that. Dr. Andrew Huberman is a world-renowned. neuroscientist, Stanford professor, and. podcaster. Revolutionizing how we understand the. brain. and how we can adopt change, break bad. habits, and achieve peak performance. Growing up, I was scared, depressed, and. confused. My parents split up, I was. getting in multiple fights, found myself. locked up in this residential treatment. program, and I realized that I need to. take control of my life. I'm so.

intrigued by that because so many people. feel stuck in their lives. So, how does. someone even make those life-changing. decisions? Well, there are so many. zero-cost tools that can change your. brain. We can go through all of them. So, I want to talk about dopamine and. this graph. The dopamine is kind of like a wave. pool. In every domain of life, whether. or not it's food, exercise, for some. people it's work or sex, if you push. things to the max, you're going to feel. depleted and understimulated afterwards. and you need so much more energy to get. the same output. And when you're in that.

dopamine-depleted state, typically what. people do is they try and access things. that are going to reactivate the. dopamine circuitry and all it does is. drive them further and further into that. trough. So, how do you fix that? So, it's hard. to exit, but start with. This is a sentence I never thought I'd. say in my life. Um we've just hit 7. million subscribers on YouTube and I. want to say a huge thank you to all of. you that show up here every Monday and. Thursday to watch our conversations. Um.

From the bottom of my heart, but also on. behalf of my team, who you don't always. get to meet. There's almost 50 people. now behind The Diary of a CEO that work. to put this together. So, from all of. us, thank you so much. Um we did a. raffle last month and we gave away. prizes for people that subscribed to the. show up until 7 million subscribers and. you guys loved that raffle so much that. we're going to continue it. So, every. single month we're giving away. money-can't-buy prizes including. meetings with me, invites to our events, and 1,000 lb gift vouchers to anyone. that subscribes to The Diary of a CEO.

There's now more than 7 million of you. So, if you make the decision to. subscribe today, you can be one of those. lucky people. Thank you from the bottom. of my heart. Let's get to the. conversation. Andrew, at the very heart of what you. do, at the very, very high. If I If I. look to all that you've produced and I. had to encapsulate it into just. one or two sentences that encapsulates. your mission statement, what would that. be? I want to share the beauty and utility. biology. I want people to understand how.

incredible the human body and brain are. and how even a small understanding of. the underlying mechanisms about how we. interact with light or temperature, exercise, thoughts, emotions, etc., how that can. impact our health in really powerful. ways. You have become a cultural. phenomenon because of the. information that you've shared. In your view, why and how is that. happened? I I guess maybe most.

importantly, why has that happened? What. is it that you've kind of catered to. that was absent in people's. understanding of themselves? Well, I think. people are intensely curious about. themselves, meaning our species, why we. feel the way we feel, why other people. feel and act the way they do, and I. think most everybody, I like to think, is deeply interested in how to be the. best version of themselves and I think. what I've done is I've provided a lens. into all of that through biology,

through neuroscience in particular, but also I'm a practitioner. So, since I. was pretty young, I've been actively. involved in sports and psychology and. interested in. what one can do, in some cases take, things to avoid in order to be the best. version of oneself. And so, um. I'm an academic, right? I. have a laboratory and I'm a tenured.

faculty member at Stanford. Although, I. should mention that I've shrunk my. laboratory considerably in the last year. or so, but I've done experiments on. animal models, on humans and human. clinical trials. So, I have the. understanding and expertise of a of a. research scientist. And at the same time, I think very. deeply about. how to translate the information in. these peer-reviewed papers, how to. translate the information in the fields. of science and medicine into actionable, what we call protocols. And my best to.

um distill things down into. uh you know, actionable things, um. but I'm not a big believer in dumbing. things down. I decided to go the. opposite way. Rather than give little. snippets, um 90-second videos, we. include those, but rather I decided to. go for full one-to-three-hour, maybe. even four-hour lectures on a topic. because I believe, and I'm not the first. to say it, that people have um near. infinite ability to learn if they are. told things in a way that's clear. So, I. believe that people want to understand,

they can understand, and it doesn't. require decorating things in a lot of. complicated language. Sometimes we need. to include some complicated language. just because that's the way science and. medicine are, and that people are. willing to learn that and carry that. along and once they understand how they. work a little bit better, you arm them. with a little bit of knowledge, then. really they're just off to the races and. the the rest takes care of itself. I may. a couple of times today just ask you to. explain something to me in more simple. terms because I don't have fundamental.

understanding of of science. So, um. much of my objective is just to if if is. just to be completely honest if I don't. understand something because I'm sure. there's a lot of people listening that. also probably don't understand. something. One of the things that was. most surprising to me about you was. your background. And I think. the interesting thing about your. background and where you came from and. the the struggles you faced and. in contrast to the man that sits in. front of me today is it I think it.

speaks to one of the fundamental. points of curiosity that I have about. your work, which is it's all well and. good knowing protocols, but. there's something else required to be. able to pursue them. Now, people say that this is discipline. or motivation or whatever it might be, but when I looked at your background and. where you've come from, it wasn't a. straight line. There's no There's an element of. transformation that's gone on there. There's There's almost. the early Andrew Huberman, who I would. never would have guessed would have been.

the man that is is almost unrecognizable. from the man sitting in front of me. today, and then there's the man sitting. in front of me today. And the reason I'm so fascinated by that. is because if I can understand how you. went from. that Andrew Huberman to this one, it. gives me it liberates me from the. excuses that I won't be able to pursue. your protocols now. Yeah, well certainly there's been a lot. of. adventure and transformation, certainly. some hardship. Listen, I I'll be the. first to say, you know, my life has been. easier than it has been for others and.

harder than it has been for others, right? So, I'm not trying to plant a. flag as having had the hardest or the. easiest life. I only know. um. what's my experience, right? So, all. I've got is my experience, my knowledge, and my words uh to convey that. But. yeah, it was not a linear path. I would. say the kind of key milestones along the. way and the the the relevant pieces are. for as long as I can remember, I've. always had an intense curiosity and an. intense desire for adventure. Um so, I.

want to learn and I want to learn. first-hand. I also suppose I've always had an. intensity. Like I I've um been told. since I was a young kid, you know, I I. sort of like forward-leaning a little. bit. Uh you know, forward center of. mass, so to speak. Um But yeah, my childhood on the one. hand was very conventional and and very. sweet in the sense that, you know, I had. two parents. My dad's actually a. scientist. He's a theoretical physicist. by training. He's Argentine, uh but then. did his graduate training in the United. States. My mother's uh a writer and she.

was a teacher. She didn't work a whole. lot when we were kids. She was mostly. focused on raising us. And my childhood, to my memory, was marked by, you know, dinners together at the table. I was. very, very interested in all things. biology, in particular fish. So, all. things aquaria, birds, anything that, you know, tropical birds. I I would. learn all about them, learn about fish. I would then lecture about these things. in class on Monday as a way to try the. teachers to try and get me to not talk. to students around me because I'd be. telling them about it otherwise. So, I've been giving little lectures since I.

was a kid. And. and then I suppose. as I matured, um so to speak, um. you know, around adolescence, my parents. split up. It was a very high-conflict. divorce. Um and that sent me uh in the. direction of more kind of a wilder. foraging, and let's call it that. I was. a bit feral. Um just the the circumstance led to a. situation where I was seeking out sports. and friends for which there wasn't any. parental involvement. So, for me, the.

immediate attraction was to. skateboarding and punk rock culture. And. so, I was very fortunate that I was. drawn into skateboarding and punk rock. culture in the late '80s, early '90s. I'm 49 now, or almost 49. And at that. time, that was a very nascent culture. There was no X Games, there were no. major sponsors, that sort of thing. And. so, there were all these not parentless, but rather feral kids. Some were. parentless. And I got to be exposed to. some I'm skateboarding. And I was not a. particularly good skateboarder, but I. certainly had the drive to try and do.

it. I kept hurting myself. So, that was. actually an important event. I kept, you. know, hurting my body trying to push. myself to get really good. Friends of. mine were getting sponsored. Close. friend of mine got picked up as a pro. while we were in high school. We were. traveling, going to contest. What you. probably might have noticed is there. wasn't a lot of attending school. So, I. don't recommend this to young people. Stay in school. At least at the early. stage, get that basic education while. your brain is still hyperplastic. But, you know, I was exposed to and. fortunately did not partake in a lot of.

drugs and violence, but I saw that. I. also saw a lot of incredible. skateboarding. Some of these people went. on to. um start huge companies and do. incredible things in the realm of action. sports. So, like DC. Um I know the guys. that started that. Danny Way, Colin. McKay. You know, I like I knew at that. time um I knew of, I wasn't close with, but you know, Tony Hawk, watched his. ascent, right? He was a few years ahead. of me. Um but I would attend contest. skating contest. So, I was in this world. where it was all DIY. It was all.

self-created. Now, at some point, I got. a girlfriend and um got into other. things um. and kind of left skateboarding. Um. thought I might be a firefighter for a. little while. I was always very. physical. What age is this? Um so, I was 16 when I got my first. girlfriend and um. I wasn't doing well in skateboarding. I. kept breaking my foot. Um people were. moving on without me. That's just the. nature of it. I was in love with her, wanted to spend time with her, and so I. thought, "Well, I'm not really doing.

well in school. I'm not really attending. school. I know I'll need to work and. take care of us." You know, I was really. thinking kind of like an adult at that. point in terms of what I would do. And. so, I thought I'd get into the fire. service. So, I started trying to. strengthen my body. I started doing. resistance training. Keep in mind back. then, the only people that lifted. weights were, you know, preseason. American football players, people going. to the military, and bodybuilders. And I. wasn't interested in any of those three. things. But, I started doing resis-. resistance training. um and realized, "Wow, like this is a.

really powerful tool. I can make my body. stronger through work." I could I. couldn't do a single pull-up when I. started. I was always pretty skinny. I, you know, shot up uh a full foot in. height, but was very, very skinny, you. know, at that point. And um. within, you know, a summer I could do. pull-ups. I could do these things. I. thought, "Wow, like there's this. remarkable relationship between doing. physical effort and kind of ability or. outcome." And then I also started. running a lot. For whatever reason, I. ran cross country my senior year of high. school.

And also there I felt like there was a. direct relationship between effort and. outcome. If I ran further, then the next. time I could run even further. If my. lungs burned on a hill run, well, then. the next time I could do that hill. without my lungs burning. Whereas in. skateboarding, no matter how hard I. seemed to try, I just couldn't match the. level of effort with the outcome. So, it. was from that point forward that you. know, 16 years old forward that I made. running and resistance training just. part of my regular weekly schedule. Um. what ended up happening was she went off. to college.

I ended up just basically living in my. car or her dorm room. while she was off at college. She was a. year ahead of me. And I realized I. wanted to be near her. So, eventually I. applied to college and somehow got in. By the end of my freshman year, I had. been getting in multiple fights. So, I. was still had that kind of wildness from. the world I was previously in. I was. getting into physical altercations. I. was never into drugs or alcohol. That. was fortunate. I don't have a propensity.

to be addicted to those things. But, my. life really wasn't in order. And it was. really it was actually nearly 30 years. ago to the day. It was. July 4th, 1994. I went to a barbecue. I. got into an altercation with a bunch of. people that were robbing the house that. we were at. Um. and and by the way, there's sort of a. little tangent side story. One of my um. friends in college, we weren't super. close, but my girlfriend at the time had. lived with the now wife of Jack Johnson,

the musician. So, Jack recalls that. party. Uh we have other friends from. that party. That was a kind of a a. meaningful day for me because I got into. this altercation. Everything turned out. okay. um in the sense that, you know, we got. our belongings back. No one was badly. hurt. But, I remember going back to the. place where I was staying at that time. and thinking to myself, "Okay, this is. bad." Right? Um you know, like 19 years. old. Or I guess it was just shy of of of 18. I am.

not doing well in school. My freshman. year was a disaster where I went to. college. I don't think I flunked out, but I it just wasn't really attending. class. I wasn't doing well. I'm getting. in physical altercations. I'm working at. this little bagel shop delivering. bagels. And there's nothing wrong with. that, but it's not much of a future in. it for me. Um I didn't end up going to. the fire service. I didn't end up a. professional athlete. I thought like, "What am I going to do with like what am. I going to do?" Right? Because the story. of whatever happened to me prior to that. was kind of meaningless unless I made.

something of myself. So, that day I. actually wrote myself and my parents a. letter saying that I was going to turn. my life around. And I actually still. have this letter. My mother still has. this letter. And what I decided to do. was to take a leave of absence from. university. I didn't drop out. A leave. of absence allows you the option to go. back. I moved home and I worked. So, I. was a busboy at a little restaurant in. town where I grew up. And I still. continued to run and do resistance. training, you know, three times a week. each or so. And I went to community.

college, which is um. typically where kids who can't afford to. go to university or kids that just stay. back for whatever reason. It's a. wonderful aspect of the the um. educational system in California still. And I made learning and filling my mind. with formal, rigorous coursework-based. knowledge my absolute mission. Now, I. didn't care if I liked it. I just It's. like, "I'm going to trust my ability to.

learn." Because I could tell you a lot. about tropical fish, skateboarding, punk. rock music, a fair amount about physical. training at that point. I sought out the. right people. This has always been. something I've been good at is seeking. out the right people with knowledge. So, I got great knowledge from the late Mike. Mentzer, who had trained Dorian Yates. Um I was reading every book I could on. physical fitness and rehabilitation, trying to get my body strong. Um never. wanted to be big. You know, I was always. interested in being strong and being. able to run far and fast. That was. always a goal, like a capability. I I've.

not been one of the um. people to like really care about like. hypertrophy. That wasn't something that. mattered to me. If some came along as a. consequence of training, great. But, it. was more about a a capability to do. things. So, at that point, I just became. a voracious learner. I took every bit of. energy that I had applied to these other. areas and put them into learning math, science, art history, English, literature, whatever, you know, coursework was thrown at me. And then.

after a year of that, went back to. university, lived alone in a studio. apartment, and. basically for the remaining portion of. university, all I did was. study, work out, hang out with my. girlfriend, run, listen to. at that time, like early '90s punk rock. music, which is still a wonderful genre. So, mainly like Rancid, Operation Ivy, Bob Dylan, always love Bob Dylan, classical music when I study,

and that was it. I didn't do anything. else. And at that point, I started. getting straight A's. People didn't. recognize me. They were like, "Aren't. you the guy from freshman year that was. getting in all these fights?" I will. admit that I wasn't um completely devoid. of of uh the typical college um. phenotype. Once a month, I would allow. myself to go out to a party and I'd. party once a month. But, stayed away. from drugs, was never never my thing. And um so, drank, which, you know, eventually I realized wasn't my thing.

either. But, I was just completely. committed. So, I graduated university. with honors. I went to graduate school, did a master's up at UC Berkeley. Um then did my PhD, did my postdoc at. Stanford, and then eventually got a. laboratory um. first at UC San Diego, excellent. neuroscience program. Eventually was. recruited to Stanford uh with tenure. And all along maintaining physical. fitness in the background, focusing very. heavily on doing primary research, meaning making discoveries in.

neuroscience, and publishing papers. And. then in 2019, I decided to start posting science on. Instagram. Just really nerdy stuff. Um. no protocols, just telling people about. sunlight and the relationship to the. eye, dopamine, and ex- I just. enjoyed talking about it just like I did. when I was a little kid, telling people. about tropical fish. And in 2020, my plan was to release a. book. So, I got a guy, a PR guy. His.

name is Rob Moore. He's now a close. friend of mine. And we're talking about. how we would, you know, I don't know, maybe go on podcasts or do something of. that sort when the book came out. And. then the pandemic hit. And I said, "You. know what? Let's pause the book." And he. said, "Why don't you just maybe go on. podcast?" So, that year, 2020, I went. on, I think, somewhere between 20 and 30. podcasts. No book, no website, no nothing. Just. like talking science and delighted in. that. And then January 2021, I got a little place um.

in a little uh kind of canyon region of. Los Angeles, a little sabbatical-like uh. retreat and um set up some cameras. I had my bulldog Costello there. Rob. Moore became my podcast producer. And on. January 1st, more or less, we launched. the Huberman Lab podcast, where now I. still just blab about stuff that I find. interesting and that I think can be. useful to people. So, that's the kind of. that's the arc. And as I tell all this,

I also just want to make sure that. people know that. it sounds like this magnificent arc, but. along the way there were. absolutely times when I thought, "Oh my. like what am I going to do?" Like this. is working, but this isn't working. And. my life at times became very lopsided. I. focused mainly on work and research. Um. you know, I'm 49 years old. Now I've had. some wonderful relationships across my. life, but I opted to. delay on marriage and family as a way to.

uh well, it wasn't the intention, but as. a way to really just continue to pour my. energy into the things that I was most. passionate about. So, there's always. sacrifice. There were you know, sadly. I've lost a lot of friends along the way. to some to drugs and alcohol, suicide, depression, and so on. Um others to just. unfortunate consequences or age. But the. um I think the major themes have been. I just simply can't pull myself off a. desire to learn and adventure through a.

particular space. And then once I learn. things and as I learn things, I can't. seem to help but just tell everybody. about it. And you know, provided there's. somebody there to listen, then I'm eager. to share what what I learn. It's funny in life how some of the most. traumatic things that happened to us. And trauma is such a subjective thing. So, what's trauma for me is not for. Francis Ngannou, who I've heard his. story and you know, walking out of. Africa and jumping over barbed wire and. walking across the Sahara desert. His is. an amazing. I just can't you know, it's like.

I hear he's a very nice guy. He's exceptionally nice. He's a. wonderful individual. But I'm I'm really. interested in how our traumatic. experiences end up um. dragging us in whatever shape in life. Dragging us or making us driven. That. it's almost two sides of the same coin. sometimes. But I just wanted to zoom. back in on when you were younger. Um cuz. I was reading about at 14, 15 years old, you were put into a residential. treatment program. I was. So, one day in school and by the way, I. wasn't in school much and if I was. there, I was the kid with the hoodie on.

with his head on the table, you know, just kind of like sleeping or drawing or. um I was not tuned in to what I should. have been tuned into. Um I was looking. back, I think I was depressed. I was. sad. I was confused by the fracture of. my family. And listen, um. divorce and family reorganization can. take place without all that. It. unfortunately this was a very. complicated situation. Um. and maybe it was also puberty combined. with general confusion about life. Um.

those things um combined to you know, put me in a state that I think looking. back I was I was scared, depressed, and confused like a lot of young people. happen to be at that age. So, a number of things happened. Um I was. getting into trouble. I wasn't attending school. I was truant. a lot. Um and. yeah, one day they came to like get me. They basically called me into the. office. I was sitting there.

um talking to school counselor. It. wasn't my first time doing that. And. then some other people showed up there. and I started to realize like uh-oh, I. think I know what this is. Um which was. they were going to take me away. Um now, the exact stimulus for all this, whether. or not a friend, I think I know who it. was, had been concerned about me and had. intervened or whether or not it was. purely from the parent side isn't clear. to me still. I have my theories and they. have theirs. Um but in any event, I soon after found. myself in a residential treatment.

program. And um. it was interesting because. it was the first time that I had ever. had my freedom taken away from me. You. know, that was an experience like doors. go locked and you're like, "Whoa, you. know, like my freedom's taken away.". Well, you're locked you're locked in a. treatment program basically. You know, these were all kids that were delinquent. or had problems of various sorts. So, you're on a hallway with a bunch of. other kids. Um. you know, you're staying there at night. You're not leaving. You're not free to. walk to leave. And they make you do.

group therapy. You have to do one-on-one. therapy. Um you you have an hour to. exercise outside. You're not leaving the. the grounds. Yeah, this is a like a. combination of like if you were to just. sort of merge in your mind like youth. detention and hospital, right? That's. kind of the the the the unity of these. Now, kids there and they and we were. kids, right? Um and there was a there. was a unit of much younger kids. And. there was a unit of people much older. than us. And I'll never forget what they. said. One of the counselors there said to us,

"Listen, the kids over there, the. younger ones, and the adults over there, they're crazy. You guys, you're not. crazy. You just have problems." And I'll. never forget one of the kids that was in. there with me goes, "Yeah, but that's. exactly what they're telling the people. in the other two in the other two. units." So, pretty quickly I realized. like this place is is problematic. And I. was scared. I I won't forget like my my. roommate, who turned out to be a very. kind person, but he looked like Richard.

Ramirez, the Night Stalker. And he had a. cutting problem. And he was like a scary looking guy, but. as I got to know him, I realized that he um. was just a a. kid with a lot of problems. Different. than mine, but a lot of problems. So, you're in there with kids with. severe drug issues, with um. some were suicidal, some weren't, some. had aggression issues. Um it was a coed. unit during the day. Obviously you're. you're housed, you know, it was boys.

with boys, girls with girls. Um. and after about 2 3 days, I realized, "Okay, the only way out of here is to do. the work." So, I did the work. I sat down and I started. for the first time really talking about. what was going on for me. and listening. You can learn a lot in. those places by listening to what's. going on for other people. And I. realized that a lot of what was going on. internally for me had to do with the. fact that you know, you know, I mean what do we need? We we.

basically need safety and acceptance at. some level. You know, from from parents. we also need guardrails. And at that. time I was lacking all three. Um. and. I think you know, my inherent intensity. and I'm a pretty. um. I'm not an emotional person in the sense. that I don't emote easily. Um but I'm a. very feeling person. I feel a lot. I. don't know how other people perceive me, but I feel a lot. And um I think what.

was happening in my family unit at that. time felt devastating. And um I missed my sister. She was off. off in college. She had gone off to. college. I've always been really close. with my sister. And and really because. this was like late well, this was late. '80s, early '90s. I also didn't know many people from. homes without you know, a mom and dad, this kind of thing. And I had been exposed to a lot already. You know, one of the beautiful things. about skateboarding, at least back then, it's different now, is that it was. completely self-organized. So, whenever.

I could, I would get a ride with a. friend or take the bus up to San. Francisco. There was this now famous. {slash} infamous scene, the Embarcadero. Plaza, that's called EMB, was this kind. of self-organized. place. You have these in major cities. elsewhere. There was Love Park in. Philadelphia, you know, Washington. Square Park in New York. And back then, I learned a lot from the older it was. mostly guys then. Now there's more women. in skateboarding, girls and women in. skateboarding and they rip. They're so. good. But um back then it was mostly.

guys and so I learned all sorts of. things there, some of which you know, I. was far too young to learn. I got. basically a street education. um from kids that weren't going to. school and who were just like living. this wild free life. And I do want to be. clear that even though there were. let's call them untoward elements, there. was also a lot an incredible beauty. And. like you know, my friend Jake Rosenberg. started going up there as well. He had. his own challenges that I only learned. about later.

Um and he brought a video camera, Hi8. video. He started filming the now like. just like truly iconic videos of Mike. Carroll. These names will mean things to. you. Henry Sanchez, like Marc Gonzales. is like he so he just started filming. all this and then he made the first Plan. B videos and he made the Waiting for. Lightning documentary about Danny Way, like jumping the Great Wall of China. And our friend Mike Blabac, who's the. photographer for the Huberman Lab. podcast of all things, who became one of. the most iconic action sports portrait.

photographers, was a kid who basically. drove out from Michigan. I don't even know if he graduated high. school. Some he probably did. And then. he slept in the clothing stacks at the. Gap store, hung out in Embarcadero, and. took photos. And those photos and those. videos that Mike and Jacob and other. people took are now iconic in. skateboarding. And so, I was also exposed to this incredible. world of DIY like like take your. passion, take your circumstance, and. pick a craft and just document stuff.

And so, in many ways like what happened. at Embarcadero and what happened in. skateboarding and I always loved punk. rock music and going to shows. I have no. musical talent and I. I didn't suck at skateboarding, but I. wasn't going to go anywhere with it. But the what I saw was if you love. something and you want to learn as much. as possible about it and you love the. culture around it, you do have to learn how to sort out the. untoward elements. Don't get yourself. into trouble. But. you take that energy and I just took it. to academics. I remember realizing when.

I got to graduate school, I found a. wonderful lab to work in with a. wonderful woman named Barbara Chapman. Unfortunately, she passed away. And at the time she said, "Listen, I'm. going to have a couple kids, but we have. grants. You can So, she said I'm going. to have a couple kids, so I'm going to. be very busy, but we have grants and. here's the lab." She said, "Don't burn. the lab down. Don't hurt yourself, but. just do experiments. Have fun." And I. realized, I was like, "This is the. best." And I had so much energy, and I. thought, "I never have to go home." So, I lived there a lot of the time. Brush. my teeth in the sink there, work out at. the gym, go and shower, come back. And I.

remember people saying, "You're going to. burn out. What are you doing?" And I'm. like, "What are you talking about?" And. I would work 80, sometimes 100 hours a. week. I was so happy. And I realized, like, this is the exact. same feeling. I'm just taking my. interest, and I'm just pouring myself. into it. I did that when I was a. graduate student. I did when I was a. post-doc. And actually, when I was a. post-doc, I started writing some music. um articles for Thrasher magazine. I've. always kept some little tie to the. skateboarding industry that way, just to. make some extra cash. And then, when I was a junior professor,

I had to really pour myself just into. the laboratory, but it still worked out. And. I guess the point is that. you know, earlier you and I were talking. about if you have, and I'm borrowing in. this phrase from one of my heroes, Martha Beck, um who's a wonderful person. and teacher, has such wisdom, and she. calls it a um interest-based attention. system. Some people might call it ADHD, but have you ever noticed that even. people And we know this from the. scientific literature, people, kids, adults with ADHD, when they're in.

so-called ADHD, when they are doing something they. really love, they're like a laser. They're not going to peel off that. Their attention is like level 11 out of. 10. So, I took. that energy that I've always had in me. for fish, for tropical birds, skateboarding, punk rock music, eventually it was biology, and I just. went, "Okay, here are my chips. I'm all in. All in." But the goal has. always been and remains to take what I.

learn. and share it. Because the real joy in. doing anything, for me, anyway, is the ability to share. in that knowledge or in that experience. And so, um those early years were really. choppy and really dangerous, you know, frankly. But then, when I started a. laboratory and decided, "Yeah, I'm going. to study human stress. Let's go get VR. of stressful circumstances." And my. friend Michael Muller, who's a very. accomplished portrait photographer in. Hollywood, and also takes photos of.

great white sharks out of cages, he said. to me, "Oh, you know, your VR stimulus. in your lab, um here's what he told me.". He He's like, "It sucks." He said, "It. sucks. It doesn't look real. It's all. CGI. It's not scary at all. How about we, you know, go film some. great white sharks down in Guadalupe. Island, and we leave the cage?" And, you. know, the the young Andrew was like, "Okay." So, got dive certified, went and. did it one year, stayed in the cage, went the next year, exited the cage. I'm.

not recommending people live this way. I'm not, because I had an air failure at. depth the second year while I was in the. cage. I bailed out. I made it. I lived, but it was super scary. And it was not. an experience I want to repeat. And I. realized, you know, that's the line. Like, I you know, the great Oliver. Sacks, another hero of mine, British-trained neurologist and and. author, he wrote uh was basically what. became the script for Awakenings and. things like that. Um. there's a quote about him that resonates.

a lot. And the quote, I think, is, I. mean, you know, uh an early teacher of. his said, "Oliver will go far, provided. he does not go too far.". And so, you know, you have to be. careful, right? These adventures, leaving school, doing you you can't be. haphazard about it. So, if you look at the broad arc, it's. highly nonlinear, but there's a common. thread through all of it, which is this. desire to learn, curiosity, desire to share, intensity.

And. when I'm involved in any one thing, and. I recommend that if people are involved. in any one thing, if it's podcasting or. sport or video games or math or AI or. program, whatever it is, skateboarding, whatever it is, that you can't be. haphazard in that world. Because. forward progress, even if you change. things over time, is the consequence of. taking that inherent uniqueness that we. each have, and whatever level of. intensity we have, and making sure that. you, you know, do take steps forward.

And there are What I've learned is. as a child, as an adolescent, and as an. adult, there are all these traps along. the way. There are all these shoots down. to failure and destruction, and you have. to be very, very thoughtful. And so, you. can't be reckless. I'm really compelled as well by the. letter you sent to your parents. Yeah, they they must have been very. surprised. That letter was written. in a house on a little street in the. little town called Isla Vista, um Pasado.

Street, where I'd essentially been. squatting for the summer with my ferret. That was the I tell you that cuz that. was the picture. I had a ferret, her. name was Iris, that my first girlfriend. who had left me by then, cuz she was. smart, cuz I had nothing going on. Um. We were me and Iris were living. together. I didn't even have a bed in. the place. I thought, "Well, why pay. rent, you know? Like, no one in Like, where I grown up with all these like. like riffraff kids." Now, the town To be. clear, the town I grew up in, Palo Alto, now is known as like one of the. wealthiest places. At that time, it was. like kind of upper middle class, but.

when I say like riffraff kids, I mean, like the people that congregated around. skateboarding in the late '80s, early. '90s, were the kind of like parentless, feral types. So, I learned a lot. I. learned I can sleep mummy style. anywhere. In a car, in a van, in a corner. So, like, why pay rent? That summer, I'd. have more money to keep and save if I. just. got a pillow and a couple blankets and a. sleeping bag. And this little place, I. was living there with my ferret. And I came back from that fight on July. 4th, and I thought, "Okay, like, this is it.".

And I think it was by the end of the. weekend I'd written out this letter that. said, essentially, the following. It said, "Look, I don't. know why. you guys decided to just fracture. everything. I understood why my parents didn't want. to be together. They were incompatible. Um By the way, they're both happily. married now to wonderful people for many. years. So, there there's a happy ending. there. But at the time, I was very. confused. It wasn't that I needed them. to be together, but the level of.

friction in their separation was just. like it I felt like a lot of it fell on. me. And And there are reasons for that. But. I basically forgave them. I basically said, "Listen, I. forgive you. Um. I realized that I need to take control. of my life. I was 18. So, I'm a fall. baby, so it was like I was almost 19. Um. you know, 18 years old, 19 years old. And I need to do something with my life.

And. the only way I'm going to do that is by. getting super focused. and super organized. So, I somehow had. the the idea to externalize this. And then, I wrote essentially the same. letter to myself. And then, I just. as my girlfriend who eventually got back. together with me. That was interesting. As soon as I started working hard in. school, I'll never forget what she said. We're still friendly. She's married with. her own family, and they have a. beautiful family, but every once in a. while I'll hear from her, and I will. never forget what she said to me about a.

year later when I was just absolutely. rabid about learning. She said, um. "You know, you've become a monster." And. I was like, "A monster?" And she's like, "Yeah, a monster of learning and class. and getting up early, and you tuck your. shirt in." Like, I got into this whole. thing of like dressing. the opposite of everyone else that lived. in that little town. It's a little beach. town. Everyone wore flip-flops, rode. beach cruisers. Uh at that time, it was like baggy. shorts, long T-shirts, and I started. tucking in my shirt, a belt. I would get. like all like, you know, like cleaned.

up, and I'd and I'd go to class, and. people are like, "What is wrong with. this guy?" I just wanted to go. completely against the grain and just be. as disciplined and organized as. possible. And I basically was parenting. myself. And I think that this is something that. I learned how to do early on. I love my. parents, but I learned how to mother and. father myself. And that was powerful. It. was like I was a young guy, um but let's. face it, you know, at 19, you're young, but you're not that young in the sense. that if you screw up,

you know, if you. you know, I don't know. I had friends. who got into drunk driving stuff. A. friend of ours was killed in a drunk. driving accident. Um I wasn't real close. with him, but I knew him real well. This. guy, Phil Shaw, great skateboarder, was killed cuz someone drove drunk. He. wasn't driving drunk. Dead. Bunch of. people dead or in jail. So, you know, when you're 18 or older, like, the. consequences go super superlinear, you. know, shift, um. where small mistakes can lead to really. bad outcomes. So, yeah, I just kind of.

scruffed myself, and I was like, "Let's. do this." And, you know, here I am. I'm. so intrigued by that, because in that. moment, you have, I think, a moment in. which a lot of people are searching for. in their lives, where where you have you. have a decision to do it differently. And I've always wondered what it takes. for someone to get there. And is it. something that you can accelerate. towards? Like, is there If I'm laying on. the couch right now, and I'm feeling. that, is there something I can do to get. me there, or do I need more pain? Fear. Fear. I'll tell you.

Super scary being. like almost 19 years old, girlfriend. left me. I'm not good at anything. I wasn't good. at anything. Not skateboarding, couldn't play an. instrument. Everyone in that town surfed. Um Family? Family, I mean, I didn't Yeah, I could. have gone to the fire service, and. that's a wonderful career path. Um. Yeah, I didn't I didn't have any like. marketable skills. I couldn't really do. anything, except I knew my capacity to.

learn. I've always had a very good. memory, and I've always enjoyed learning. So, I thought, "Okay, school seems like. a good option. They tell you what you. need to know." In fact, at one point, I. realized, and I think it was Ryan. Holiday that said that, you know, the. people who should absolutely not drop. out of college are the people who are. not doing well, because the real world. is a lot harder in many ways. It's a lot. harder than college. In college they. tell they tell you what to do. I. remember taking a class in Greek. mythology. You go there, if you sit near.

the front, you pay attention, you try. not to pay attention to anyone else. You. sit down, they tell you what you need to. know. Now, sometimes it's complicated, you can't keep up, but then they have. these things called office hours where. you can ask, they have teaching. assistants. I mean, the whole thing is. set up so that you almost can't fail if. you do the required steps. Whereas with. skateboarding, it's like I was always. getting broke off, as they say, you. know, I was always rolling my left foot, snapped again, uh nothing, couldn't do. it. Um. there's so much uncertainty in other.

things. At least with a college. education, for me, it was like, okay, I can I can learn this stuff. And then. what I found is when there's a desire to. learn, and then you learn, and then you. do well, and I'd started doing very. well. Um. and but there's that one class that I. got a B+ in that I'm still pissed off. about, you know. My first year was a. disaster, then it was all A's, and then. there's this one class in neural. development from Ben Reese,

and I got a B+. And as a consequence, when I went to. graduate school, I studied neural. development. You know, it's the thing. that you don't get, the the place where. you make an error that you forever carry. that signal, I need to get better at. that. So, I think a lot of it is just. having the. the knowledge of self, right? What did. the oracle say? Know thyself. The. knowledge of self. to really think, okay, like, what are my. strengths? Do I like to learn if I'm. interested in something? Do I have a.

voracious appetite? Maybe if you're a. person with less energy, um maybe uh. you're more reflective, or you like to. journal, or you need more time to. process. I think turning what often. appear as weaknesses into strengths is. really possible. And then I do think that we are all each. endowed with some unique gift. I really. believe in this. Um it's not mystical. for me. I think that we all have some. wiring of our brains that's very. similar, and we all have some unique. wiring based on our genetics and our. experience.

And I just thought, I'm going to. keep paying attention to what fills my. body with energy. One of the most inspiring, and I think. liberating, things that I've heard in. your work is this idea of. neuroplasticity, because. if your if the brain can physiologically. change based on what I'm doing, then it. means that who I am now, my identity, that 60 that 19-year-old who's sleeping. in the mummy thing with the ferret, isn't who I always have to be. I can. literally change. Um we've spoken a little bit around like. what causes the motivation to actually.

change, but knowing that there's a my. brain will actually change, those two. things are really inspiring for me, because it means that whatever rut I'm. stuck in isn't necessarily a permanent. one. Now, you said that the motivation. to change comes from fear. Well, in my. case, it took a a fear circumstance, fear of becoming a. permanent failure, Yeah. to motivate. immense change. And um. uh that was that circumstance. I I do. believe, however, that the. best work, our most creative and best.

work, comes from a a love of craft. But sometimes, in order to find what you. truly love, you have to be scared into. setting off on a path to find it. And um. yeah. And And And that goes for. relationships, too. Sometimes, to find. the right relationship, um or. relationships, it could be friendships, romantic relationships, etc., one has to. be. like deathly afraid of having to remain. in the the relationship that you're in. enough to leave.

So, neuroplasticity. is absolutely real. Um it actually. worked out that my scientific. great-grandparents, two guys, David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, won the. Nobel Prize for. for neuroplasticity. Now, they weren't. the people who discovered it. It had. actually been described for centuries. People understood that young kids. can learn more easily than adults can. But David and Torsten won the Nobel. Prize for essentially formalizing the.

and discovering the principles of. neuroplasticity, how it works. And then, some years later, mainly one guy by the name of Mike. Merzenich, but there were others that. worked with him, discovered that neuroplasticity is. actually a feature of the nervous. system, the brain, throughout our entire. lifespan. The rules change a little bit. in terms of how you rewire your brain. But if the question is, can. a person change? Can you learn new. thing? Can you unlearn certain patterns? Can you overcome traumas.

at any age? The answer is absolutely, categorically, yes. How? Well, it's very clear that as a. child until about age 25, more or less, just passive experience will shape the. brain, for better or worse. After about age 25, and again, these are. not strict cutoffs, we can change our brain, but what's. required is a marked shift in the. neurochemical environment under which. something happens. So, one of the.

reasons why any traumatic event will. forever be remembered, although, by the. way, you can remove some of the. emotional load of that, trauma does not. have to be traumatic forever, is because when we see or experience. something very intense of a fearful. nature, there is the release of certain what we. call neuromodulators, things like. epinephrine, adrenaline, and other. neuromodulators that cause a state shift. in our broad body and brain. And the nervous system recognizes this.

as unusual, and as a consequence, in the. subsequent days, there's reordering of. the connections, so that the brain can prepare for that. event should it happen again. This is why we have what's called. one-trial learning. You go to a certain. location, something terrible happens. there, you will forever associate that. location with something terrible. But. there are tools, therapy, and other. tools. that can allow the emotional load to be. removed from that, so that you could go. to that location and feel calm, no fear.

whatsoever. The good news is you can also learn. anything you want to learn, provided there's a shift in this. neurochemical environment. This is why. when we are very interested and focused. on something, two of the main. requirements for neuroplasticity, we. have to be alert and we have to be. focused. We can't learn passively as. adults. We can't just play, um. you know, a lecture about AI and large language. models or neuroscience in the room, and. then it just the knowledge doesn't just. sink in by osmosis.

But if we pay attention and we're alert. when we pay attention, there's a shift in the neurochemicals. associated with that attention, what we call the catecholamines. It's. three molecules, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine, all which cause an. increase in alertness, all which cause. an increase in focus, a tightening of. our visual field and our auditory field, so like cones of attention is one way to. think about it. And then, it sets in. motion a bunch of biological processes. such that if we get adequate sleep that. night,

maybe the next night as well, there's. reordering of neural connections, so. that that knowledge, that new. experience, is consolidated in your brain. You are. forever changed as a consequence of that. experience. So, when we hear that the. brain is constantly changing, everything. that we encounter changes our brain, that's not true. Why would the brain change unless it. needed to? Right? As a child, the brain. is basically a template for change. It's. it's trying to understand the. environment and make predictions, and so. that's true. Neuroplasticity is is.

a cardinal feature of of childhood and. adolescence and the teen years. You just. think about the music you listened to. when you were a teen, no other music. will ever have as much significance. And. that's because as a teen, your body is. flooded with hormones and. neuromodulators that the amount of. meaning that comes from. now seemingly trivial events when you're. a teenager or adolescent is immense. That song meant so much, and it's. because of the neurochemical milieu it. creates in you. But as an adult, it. takes a stronger stimulus, as we say.

And if you were to. fall in love as an adult, or see. something a painting that just strikes. you as just so unbelievable, yes, then. you are forever changed. But just going. to see a bunch of paintings at the Met. doesn't mean that every single one of. those paintings is forever stamped into. your brain. The The nervous system is. very. um efficient in that way. It doesn't. change unless it has to. And it. always changes if it needs to in order. to keep you safe. This is why there's an.

asymmetric influence of fear as opposed. to um just interest in terms of what. will shift our brain. But. it's nice to know that love and. excitement and appreciation are very. strong stimuli for changing the brain. And um you know, I can. kind of draw to mind conversations I've. had with my good friend Rick Rubin. I'll. get accused of name-dropping, but I'm. very fortunate to be close friends with. Rick, and Rick always talks about, you know, how when you just see and.

experience something and you just have. this love for it, it changes the brain. He's not a neuroscientist, but in many. ways, he's a neuroscientist. So, in any. case, you absolutely can change your. brain, but you have to pay attention to. the thing you want to incorporate into. your brain. You have to be alert while. you do that, and then you absolutely. have to go get some rest, because it's. during sleep and during meditative. states and during rest that the actual. rewiring of the brain occurs. There's a phrase that you can't teach an.

old dog new tricks. And I think as we. get older and older, we become stubborn. in part because we're very comfortable. with the way things are in routine and. whatever, but also I think we start to. believe in this idea that we can't. change. And that in and in and of itself. makes it harder to change. Are you. telling me that you can teach an old dog. new tricks? Yeah, I'm so glad you. brought this up. Um let's just. destroy that myth now. You absolutely. can teach an old dog or human new. tricks.

We know this. In fact, there's studies. incredible studies that were done down. at the Salk Institute in San Diego. showing that even in people who are very. old, right? These are people in their. 80s and 90s. You know, the human. lifespan probably maximum human lifespan. as we understand it is probably about. 120 years. more or less, but most people don't make. it to 100, but so 80 or 90 is pretty. old. Mhm. There's still the addition of new. neurons occurring. These people who were.

unfortunately dying of terminal cancer, I believe, but other causes agreed to. take a a dye that actually gets. incorporated into new neurons. And then. after they died, their brains were um. you know. looked at under the microscope and there. was the addition of new neurons even at. late age. Now, I want to be very clear. that most of learning is not the. addition of new neurons, at least not in. humans. But from everything we know about. neuroscience, it's clear that doesn't. matter if you're 90 years old, 70 years.

old, 50 years old, if you want to learn, you can learn. And that learning occurs. through neuroplasticity, which is the. reordering of neural connections, strengthening of certain connections, weakening of others, and in some rare. cases the addition of new neurons, but. brain change is absolutely real at every. stage of life. I also wonder about habit formation. So, you said there that some of the more. sort of startling stimuluses like fear. are great ways and and obsessive sort of. deep focus are great ways to start.

forming these new behavior patterns. But. if I want to break a habit cuz there's. habits I've got in my life that I've. kind of just told myself are. who I am. And. accordingly, I've just kind of accepted. them. Well, you've been very successful, so Yeah, but even with all there's all. thing Thank you, but with there's many. things I'd still I've just accepted it's. part of who I am. Some of those come. from my childhood. So, one of them is. that I grew up in a very disorganized. home where like the doors inside my. house had holes in them and our house. there was like some rooms that looked. like a hoarder lived there. Just piles.

and piles of stuff to the roof. Um house. demolished in many respects. Like the. back of the garden was 6 ft high. It was. it was a mess. So, I've grown up with. mess and I'm therefore still pretty. messy today. And it's something I've. always wanted to defeat, but I just. sometimes I tell myself, well, it you. know, it was hardwired into me when I. was a kid. and it it is just who I am. And a lot of. people go around saying that. They've. just kind of. identified with and accepted a certain. bad habit as part of who they are.

Well, I will say that some of the most. brilliant people I know had terribly. messy offices. And they were very. internally organized people. It's kind. of interesting. They were like a laser. beam in their ability to kind of sort. through mess. They didn't see the mess. In fact, my post-doc advisor, who also. sadly passed away, but an incredible. human by the name of Ben Barres. Used to. walk into his office and there'd just be. piles of stuff everywhere. And I'd say, "Ben, I I think we should clean your. office." And he'd say, "Don't touch.

anything because if you move anything, I. won't know where it is." And I said, "How could you possibly know where. anything is right now?" And he said, "I. know where everything is." And so, I. think some people also by growing up in. or being in that environment also. maintain an uncanny ability to find. things. Whereas, I'm the sort of person. where I can't do any work until. everything is cleared away. And so, um I see myself as on the weaker. side of this ability. Um but to your. question, I think.

stories are very powerful and very. dangerous. Stories are the way that humans organize. knowledge by and large, right? We don't. tend to. organize things into lists. We have. these narratives that we call stories. because from a young age. we learn things not just by hearing them. and seeing them, but they are. compartmentalized into narratives that. have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Sometimes they have a. uh kind of a crescendo and then a.

relaxation. Just think about a childhood. song of learning like the ABCs. They don't teach you the ABCs A B C D E. F G H I J K, right? They don't do that. What do they do? They give you a song, which is a story. Musicians will. understand this inherently. Again, I'm. not one, but. when I started researching neuroscience. of music in the brain, came to. understand so it's A B C D E F G, right? The change in the inflections. as one does the alphabet as a young kid. is the story of the alphabet. Now,

people might say, "Okay, what what is he. talking about?" What's happening here is. you create variation in terms of. batching of ideas. so that something has a beginning, a. middle, and an end. So, if you think, "Okay, I grew up in this house and it. was really messy and now I have too much. mess and in order to undo that, there's. this kind of like hardwired right. dangerous words hardwired neural. circuitry in my brain that I would have. to work really really hard to undo and. I'd have to be scared into being a. cleaner person or what you or what you. know, I'm a tidier person, whatever it.

is.". That's very dangerous because there's a. beginning to that, a middle to that, and. an end to that and it has immense. meaning as a consequence. One of the most powerful things is to. understand that neuroplasticity really. involves taking an existing story and. dismantling some component of it. What. could the component be? Well, there's. all this stuff like the Byron Katie work. which says, you know, you you take. something that you believe as true and. you say, "Okay, like uh like I'm an. untidy person." And then you counter it.

How do I know that? Well, okay, I have. this experience. Okay, that's the story. And then you start running counter. narratives. You say, "I'm uh. I'm. uh actually a tidy person." And then. people say, "Well, this is silly. You're. just lying to yourself, right?" Or they. say, "Is it always true that you're a. messy person?" You start challenging the. story from different sides. Now, I. believe as because I'm a neuroscientist, I'm not um in I'm not a psychologist or. in the self-help world. that the brilliance, the kind of. unconscious genius of that approach is.

actually that what one is doing is. you're starting to create a new story. You're starting to kind of infuse. different questions into the existing. neural network. Now, the brain loves. questions. Like that the brain since. we're we're young kids, we're asking. questions. And so, if you take an. existing story and you start challenging. it with questions, you're not saying lie. to yourself. You're not suddenly going. to say, "Okay, like I'm super tidy.". You're not going to cuz you're not going. to believe that. But if you start. challenging. why it's that way or, you know, you've.

been able to change so many other. things, why you wouldn't you be able to. change that. We say, "Well, it's just a. habit. I can't do it." You say, "Well, what's a habit?" And you start poking. and pushing and pushing. What you. eventually arrive at is this kind of. huh. Actually, there's nothing keeping me. from being a tidy person except this. kind of fluency of a particular story. And what you've done is you've. interrupted the fluency of that story. So, then when you go to the behavior of, you know, do you set things down all. over the place or do you put them in an. orderly fashion, you start interrupting. the habit, the fluency of your typical.

behavior. So, I raise this as a as a way. um to kind of shine light on essentially. what. I do in my podcast career, which is, you. know, we I I believe very strongly in. the fields of psychology. I think. self-help has some wonderful things to. offer. We've got ancient wisdom that. goes way back. And when you start to. look at things through the lens of. biology you start to see that all of. these things actually have merit and. they're just different paths to the same. outcomes. So, if you wanted to become a. tidy person, I would encourage you here. would be one.

let's just say neuroscience supported. approach would be to write out one page. about what a tidy person you really are. You'll know that's a lie, right? And. then. to. look at it and realize that in many ways. if you just replace tidy with, you know, messy at any location, it'd probably be. the exact same story. And so, what. you're really talking about here is just. a default that your nervous system is. running. And if you were to just swap the words,

would you feel differently or do. differently? On the one hand, you'd say, "No, that's kind of trivial." But I bet. you the practice of writing it out would. forever interrupt your notion of like. just going to set something down. You'd. be like, "Ah." Now you have something to. kind of disrupt the habit cuz so much of. habit disruption that you'll look like. some people say, "Oh, you you flick a. uh you know, rubber band on your wrist. or something like that." There's nothing. special about the rubber band. There's. nothing special about the pain on your. wrist or the you put a sticky note. We. know sticky notes work for about 1 day. Why don't sticky notes work? Why don't. reminders on the mirror work? Because.

they you don't have enough salience. They're not new. They're not different. The nervous system only changes if. something is new and different. So, anyway, we could talk a lot about habit. formation, but fear works, but so does. disrupting the story. How do you disrupt. the story? You essentially. give the opposite story. And you think, "Well, that's just lying to myself." But. neurally, it makes sense because. the nervous system again likes to be. very economical, likes to do everything. with the minimum amount of energetic. expenditure. And to change anything requires.

attention and attention is expensive. Attention is expensive. And also, I. would say, as I'm kind of rambling all. this. things are going very well for you. So, you actually don't have any reason to. tidy your space. now and another PA and I have a cleaner. So, it's Do you know what I mean? The. Yeah, you outsource it. Yeah. Great. Well, there is incentive for all. the folks that feel like they're not um. tidy enough. You have two choices. You. can either start to be tidy now or you. can be successful enough that you can. hire some assistants. And I actually.

think and say this in in all. seriousness, I think that one has to ask. like where is my attention and neural. real estate best devoted? I think about. this every day. I mean, we are living in. a war. of attention. I wake up in the morning. and I can be a consumer or a creator. If. I reach for my phone, I'm a consumer. If I go to my journal, I'm a creator. My advice to anyone who wants to be. successful in any domain.

is to do things away from where you. broadcast and then take it to that. broadcast. I mean, take your real life. to Instagram. and be very cautious about taking. Instagram to your real life. Does that. make sense? If you look at successful. people, they're doing things away from. the platforms and putting them on the. platforms. Yeah. So, I have to be very careful. Then I go into the kitchen. Obviously, I. talk to people in my home. Um. but. if I pick up the phone and I start.

making a phone call, it's like, is this. call really about moving. the needle forward or is this just kind. of like passive use of of attention? We. have to be so careful nowadays. So, so. careful. It's really challenging. On. that point of focus and attention and. thinking back to when you were 19 years. old, one of the things people ask me a. lot and I guess it's a bit of a debate. in the self-help world is from a. neuroscience perspective, is. manifestation. and this idea of like visualization, visualizing who I want to become and you. know, where I'm going, is there any.

neuroscience to support that that works? There is. Um. and I'm not trying to be negative, but. I'll start with the negative counter. example for which there is evidence and. it's less often discussed. So, there's a. wonderful researcher at New York. University by the name of Emily Balcetis. who talks about how for. goal. setting and habit formation, fear. setting is often one of the best tools. You spend some time, maybe 5 minutes or.

so thinking about all the terrible. things that are going to happen if you. don't actually accomplish your goals. Nobody likes to do this, but guess what? It turns out to be pretty darn. effective. Really? I know. It's really frustrating. that this is the case. But again, you know, that has a lot to do with the. way that the human brain is is wired and. and likes to rewire itself. Now, that. said, it is important to envision goals. Visualizing goals in detail, um writing them out, in some cases. talking about them, although we can.

discuss that, um why that might not be the best idea. in every circumstance, um can be very beneficial because it's. hard to conceive something that you. can't imagine, but I think when people. hear that visualizing goals or. visualizing outcomes is critical, we. sometimes forget that we don't always. know what the end goal is. Sometimes we. have to break this up into milestones. This is where I think uh Rick Rubin, even though he's not a. formally trained scientist, um has drawn. a lot of interest for his work on. creativity, which is you know, Rick is.

about largely, you know, sensing the. kind of energetic pull of an idea and. being able to explore that without too. much uh self-judgment or filtering or. thinking about how it's going to be. received. In other words, that the. metamorphosis that leads to great music, great poetry, great scientific. discovery, podcasts, finance, companies. one is building, etc., is a series of. iterations that occur on the time course. of about a day. You know, and so we can't always imagine. the end or the end product as the.

outcome. This is why I said university. is easy compared to other goals because. the end is a degree. Mhm. Right? And. then you pick up your diploma. Like. whereas in other areas, it's far more. mysterious often. Now, visualization I think can be very. powerful, but perhaps what's more powerful is to. learn the brain and body state that best. serves the work you're going to do. So, for instance, if I'm going to do some. writing and right now I'm working on a.

book. It's largely done, but I'm writing. some bonus chapters. Unless I'm hyper motivated to do that. when I sit down and hyper focused, I'll. spend. two, three minutes just closing my eyes, focusing on my breathing. It's meditation of sorts, but what I. tell myself is if I can't focus on my. breathing for two or three minutes, how. in the world am I going to focus on. writing for two or three hours? That. sort of thing. The other thing that I want to make sure. I don't forget is. I mentioned that telling people your. goals often times can be useful if it.

stimulates a little bit of fear, like. you have some accountability. But we also know that. because of the affiliative nature of. people, in particular people that. support us, there is this danger. Uh a friend of mine who's a cardiologist. at UCSF taught me this. He said, you. know, be careful who you tell that. you're going to start a podcast or write. a book because often times the response. will be, oh yeah, that's great. You. absolutely should write a book or you. should do a podcast. And people get a.

sort of reward from telling people about. it and then they never actually go do. it. Whereas I can cite numerous examples. of where people were told, you're never. going to be able to do that. You're. never going to be able to be successful. in that and. my goodness, those people dig their. heels and they show that they can do it. Now, I get into debates about this with Rick. from time to time. It's a you know, it's. unclear to me whether or not the energy. around trying to prove oneself. is detrimental to the outcome.

And I sense it is, right? This kind of. grinding against like, take that and. take that as opposed to just doing. things out of real love of craft. I. think about the way I felt about aquaria. and fish as a kid and it's just like. pure delight. That's the word that comes. to mind. Just delight. I want to learn. more about it. I want to do it and tell. people about it. That's the wonderful romantic picture of. effort and progress and outcomes. But in reality, you probably need both. You need to be able to access some fear.

and sense of competition, but also. delight in craft. You know, like Peter. Thiel's book Zero to One, as I recall, defines competition as anti-creativity. in many ways because you through. competition, you are. by definition changing what you're doing. in order to outdo somebody else or. something else. And so you're morphing. your creation. in order to kind of overcome something. Whereas if you're just purely thinking. about something you want to grow and.

cultivate, there none of those barriers. In the worlds that I've been in, science, to a lesser extent podcasting and that's. a wonderful feature of podcasting, but. certainly in science, it is hyper. competitive, right? Two laboratories. working on similar things, people are. concerned that if one publishes first, the other will not be able to publish, certainly not in as high quality a. journal and jobs are created through. these journal publications. Podcasting. is actually a wonderful field um because.

let's say you and I have the same guest. on our podcast. All it does is raise it. in the algorithm. It's not like, you. know, and and it's such a and so I think. there's a lot of um collegiality and. camaraderie in the podcast field that um. exists in little pockets in. science, but um science is a brutally. competitive field, which doesn't mean it's anti-creative, but in a dream world where there's. infinite amount of money for scientific. research because that would better. humanity in my in my view. Um and people.

didn't have to be competitive about. grant dollars or publication, I think we. would make far more progress as a. species. So, competition fosters. outcomes. This is clear in markets. It's. clear in a lot of domains, but. pure love and delight of craft and. creativity, that's definitely the way to. go. But in most endeavors, you got to. have both. If sitting next to someone in. class and realizing, okay, cuz this was. me back when I'm thinking, okay, I I. love this topic, but gosh, I want that.

top mark. I want that top mark on the. distribution. Like that's and and like. she and he are really, really good and. I'm going to we're going to study. together, but my god, when it comes time. for that exam, like I'm going for it. A. little bit of competition can can bring. out our our best, I think. Um certainly. in sport. But when it comes to creative. endeavors that are really about our own. unique contribution, I mean, you could. tell me more about this in business. because you're you're I don't you know, I have a company, but I'm not a business. person, but I I always feel like. competition.

can bring out more energy, but not more creativity. Yeah, and I think a big point I was. thinking as you were talking was just. about how much you let that new energy. that comes from competition distract. you. And this is it's the distraction that. can destroy you because if. Apple are going this way and they're. building this product without the. keyboard and without the stylus and. that's they've got their vision and they. see Samsung doing over there something. over there. And if they if they divert. from their own mission and their own. first principles towards what someone.

else is doing, then that's when it can. become destructive. But if it means that. they see Samsung doing something and. they speed up and invest more in their. vision, then it's okay. I think that's. and it is this dichotomy between. competition does drive better outcomes. for everybody that's competing, but at. the same time, um yeah, it can harm you. if it distracts you in a fundamental. way. It's kind of how I think about it. Even with podcasting like. you know, um. as you were saying, there's so many. podcasters doing so many amazing things. Like. I I look at your podcast and I learn. from it, but I know in my current we all.

know, I'm never going to be Andrew. Huberman. Well, and I'll never be you. And I'll never be a Joe Rogan. I'll. never be a Lex. And I admire your podcast very much and. Joe's and Lex's. I think it's we each. have our own unique style that we bring. to it. Chris Williamson, you know, um. it's. been a lot of fun to see the unique. flavors of podcasts crop up Yeah. and. how similar that is to the world I grew. up in in skateboarding, the observations. of from the music industry that I saw. firsthand or that, you know, Rick has.

passed along. You know, in the end, I think. any creative endeavor is really about. and here I don't want to sound. mysterious or woo, it's about the energy. that we bring. It's about. taking our life history and bringing it. to that thing in whatever form. We don't. even need to tell people our life. history. Taking our unique wiring and. bringing it to that thing. And we can. again, look at things through the lens. of biology and say, well, what are we. talking talking about when we're talking. about energy? What is this energy thing.

that people are talking about? Um. and I think it largely boils down to. these catecholamines, the dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail. that is setting the brain into a mode of. attention, of motivation. We now know. dopamine is more about motivation to. seek rewards as opposed to feeling of. pleasure or reward. There's a lot to be. said about that. And keep in mind that these three. neurochemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine, and. epinephrine, have been the neurochemical cocktail by.

which humans and other mammals have. set and pursued goals for hundreds of. thousands of years. So, we don't have like a unique system, a unique neurochemical system for. seeking out of mates versus food versus. creating shelter versus creating. technology and whole societies. And it's not just these three. neurochemicals. Certainly, there are. other things involved. Acetylcholine. and, you know, a bunch of other things, neuroplasticity for that matter. But,

it's. clearly the case that the currency that. the brain has set around getting us into. forward center of mass, as I say, to. like envision something, explore. Nope, not down there. This way. Ah. There's a scent here. And trade out an. actual scent. for, you know, oh, there's something. interesting here. There's someone. interesting here. And like exploring. that No, that's a dead path to. cul-de-sac. Turn around. Go Oh, here. And then connecting these nodes of. progress. What's progress? Ah, there's. kind of another surge of these.

catecholamines, which sets us in forward. center of mass. You know, I don't want to oversimplify the. biology, but when we talk about energy, um for instance, taking. time to rest at night, sleep, taking time to maybe meditate a. few minutes or do this practice that I'm. a huge fan of non-sleep deep rest, which. is kind of a body scan deep relaxation, long exhales. It's a practice very similar to an. ancient practice called yoga nidra, which has been practiced for thousands. of years. It's a kind of pseudo sleep.

And we know from a really nice study. that. NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, aka yoga. nidra, can increase the baseline levels of. dopamine in a brain area called the. basal ganglia, which is for. action generation and also withholding. action by about 60% from baseline. Just. a a short period of doing this practice. can re kind of re-up dopamine levels to. a considerable extent. So, a remarkable. study and there are others like it. So,

what does that mean? Well, it means that. in rest, we build up this capacity to be. forward center of mass when we. emerge from rest. That's why I think we. have to sleep every 24 hours. This is. why practices where we deliberately calm. ourselves and still ourselves. allow us to be more forward center of. mass mentally and physically afterwards. It's kind of a duh when we hear it, we. kind of go, oh, duh, of course, rest, action, rest, action. But, there's a lot more to it. If you start. exploring the layers, you start.

realizing that excitement for things, um. versus burnout. What's burnout? It's. just trying to be forward center of mass. for too long. It's. you know, misuse of our dopamine. circuitry. It's, you know, ignoring the fact that. these catecholamines and dopamine in. particular, they are not infinite in their. availability, right? There's a reservoir. of them. that can be depleted, but it can be. replenished as well. And one of the best. analogies for this, um was actually. explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle.

Gillette. He does some online work as a. as a um public-facing physician, endocrinology in particular. And he. said, "But, dopamine is kind of like a. wave pool. You have this reservoir that. can allow you to pursue things or scroll. the internet or build businesses, whatever it is. If you are really forward center of. mass, very intensely, you start. generating these waves. And if you get big waves of dopamine and. they crash out of the pool, you start. depleting the reservoir. So, when I. think about drugs of abuse like cocaine, which leads to huge surges in dopamine,

or um amphetamines, huge surges in. dopamine. What do we know about huge. surges in dopamine? Well, after those. huge surges, you drop below your initial. baseline. to a state in which the same thing. doesn't feel as good anymore. You need. so much more energy to get the same. output. That's what this is, right? That's what this is. So, I'll put this. on the screen for anyone. Yeah, so my. colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anna Lembke, who runs our dual diagnosis addiction. clinic and wrote the wonderful book. Dopamine Nation, described this best.

You know, it's sort of like a seesaw, but what where by you get a big peak in. dopamine, let's say from a drug of abuse. like cocaine. People on cocaine, it's. all about ideas and what's next. They're. not like, hey, let's just kick back. It's all about what's They In fact, they. have a million ideas per second. Most of. them are terrible ideas. But, they're. very forward center of mass motivated. And then when the drug wears off, they. feel very low and very depressed. The. dopamine is actually depleted below. baseline. People that work excessively, right? We.

all have different abilities to work. out, but people that work excessively. and abuse stimulants in order to do. that, achieve these peaks. Is that like. So, what would be the an an everyday. example of that, working excessively? Do. you mean like a pre-workout or something. or what do you mean? Yeah, I'm not anti-pre-workout. Listen, I love to be well-rested, hydrated, have. a nice pre-workout drink, maybe even a little shot of espresso, listen to some music, and have an. incredible leg day workout. It's an. amazing feeling, right? But, if you do.

that every single time, you start. stacking all these catecholamine. release-inducing drugs, okay? So, you're. getting adrenaline, you're getting. epinephrine, which is adrenaline, excuse. me. You're getting adrenaline, you're. getting noradrenaline, also called. norepinephrine. You're getting dopamine. release. You're highly motivated. You're. in that state that everyone is seeking. And you try and do that 7 days a week, you're not going to do it. And then you. wonder why in the afternoon, you're just. completely cooked and you can't do any. cognitive work. Well, your dopamine and. other things have crashed below.

baseline. So, I think it's important to. understand that being as I'm calling it. forward center of mass, like really kind of. motivated and pursuing goals is great, but most of the time, we're probably. best off just coming off the gas pedal. just a little bit to maintain that. ability to continue to be forward center. of mass. The same thing is true for. stress. We hear stress is bad. Well, stress is bad, but it also sharpens your. ability to learn, it creates energy, it.

actually boosts your immune system in. the short term. I say, tolerate as much stress as you can, provided you still behave like a kind. person, right? Don't say or do things. that are unkind. And make sure that you still get great. sleep at night. Most people stress, stress, stress, stress, run around and. then they can't sleep at night. And then. the next day, they're depleted. But, a. little bit of stress is healthy. Life is. stress, things are stressful. But again, you're going to be in your best state of. mind if you're calm and alert. Alert and.

calm is the is the magic recipe and the. ability to sleep at night. If you want. to take a bunch of pre-workout and you. want to listen to some loud music and. have a great crush-it workout, great. But, you should probably also be able to. train without all of that. If you're somebody who loves new goals. and you, you know, you're very excited. about travel and this and that, great. But, do you have to layer in 50 things. and then you're sitting around at home. and you're wondering why you're so bored. when you're back home and why life is so. depressing and you need more travel,

more stimulation. In every domain of. life, we see whether or not it's food or. exercise or stimulants or sex or. media. If you push things to the max, you're going to feel depleted and. understimulated afterwards. And this. trough below baseline, as Anna Lembke. taught us with Dopamine Nation, that trough. is a state that can last a long time. And it's How long? It's proportional to. how high that peak in dopamine was. Not.

how long, but how high that peak in. dopamine was. And when you're in that. trough, that dopamine-depleted state, typically, what people do is they try. and go out or access things that are. going to reactivate the dopamine. circuitry and all it does is drive them. further and further and longer and. longer into that trough. What's needed. is a period of waiting, of. non-indulgence in any of these excesses. that allows them to return to baseline. We know this from. drugs of abuse. It takes more and more.

drug to try and get what turns out to be. less and less of a high. Most all. addiction, most all compulsive behavior. can be cured, essentially, through a period of abstinence lasting. somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which. to somebody who's highly motivated to. seek that thing or do that thing, sounds. like a an absolute horror. But, that is. highly effective. So, for some people, it's work and stimulants, you know, a. number of people taking Adderall and. work, work, work, work, work. I hear from these people all the time. Typically, they are from the tech and.

finance world. They're like, "Why am I. burnt out?" Well, you've been blasting. these catecholamine. regulated circuits for years. You need. to just accept you're going to feel a. little low for a week, then you're going. to feel a little less low, and you're. going to come back to baseline. And then, and only then, can you really. get back into like full forward center. of mass. But, at that point, you can. introduce, you know, I I do think there. is a clinical use case for certain ADHD. meds, which are amphetamine. There are.

certain people that need those meds. Other people have driven themselves into. this dopamine trough, and so they're. seeking out anything and everything to. get them out of that trough, when really. what they need to do is stay away from. all that stuff and just wait. Just wait. or something. Go on holiday. Try and find reward in smaller things. Um, you know, this is why dogs are. wonderful in simpler things. And if that. sounds heavy and dull to you, chances. are you're a bit in the dopamine. uh.

loop. Um, I've been in these loops. before. They're hard to exit, but once. you exit them, you look back on them and. you go, "What was I thinking?" Well, you. were in a different state. You're kind. of a different animal when you're in. pursuit. I think this is so unbelievably. important, because it really helps. people to understand why they do what. they do. And before you doing the. research when you coming here today, and. before understanding some of this stuff, I thought dopamine was. I don't know, it was this thing that. came in these hits maybe, and if I did. something I got ahead of it, then I. returned to baseline. If I did something.

again stimulating, I'd go ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. But what. actually is happening is I'm doing. something that's stimulating in some. way. I'm getting this huge peak, then. I'm crashing below baseline for a while. And when I'm below baseline, I'm. That's when I'm most likely to want to. do something that's going to give me a. hit again. That's right. And when I saw that, it reminded me of. the CGI monitor, the continuous glucose. monitor that I wore. Because it was a. very similar pattern. If I had a lot of. sugar, I had a big peak, then I crashed. below my baseline. Right. That's a great observation. It is.

the perfect analogy. Perfect analogy, because these regulatory systems are all. about trying to reg maintain. homeostasis. We all hear about we learn. about homeostasis, like the desire for. balance. The The The human body and. human physiology is actually geared more. towards something called allostasis, which involves kind of stress. modulation. But without getting into too. many details, you know, these are. dynamic systems. Meaning brain systems that are designed. to allow us to overcome challenges if. need be, right? This is why I always. push back on the idea that, you know,

stress crashes your immune system. You. know what crashes your immune system? Being very, very stressed, working a. lot, a lot, caretaking for someone else, and then stopping. You always get sick. when you stop. Why? Because actually stress activates. the immune system. Makes sense that it. would do that evolutionarily, right? And. then when we rest, boom, our immune system kind of relaxes. a little bit, and then we succumb to. that that, you know, that bacteria or. virus. So, what does it mean? It means. that we should probably learn to. modulate. It's like driving a car.

Anytime we feel that we're headed toward. or in a peak state, we should probably. kind of like lean back off that state. just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit, especially if that peak state is coming. by way of pharmacology or some extreme. circumstance. Just back off a little. bit, maybe a lot, okay? So, when we do that, we learn to master. the transition states between these what. I'm referring to as forward center of. mass, flat-footed, or back on my heels. It's a term I learned from a former Navy. SEAL operator. He said, "With anything.

in life, you can either be back on your. heels, like really challenged, flat-footed, kind of like calm and. forward, or forward center of mass, like. full tilt." I think most people would do. very well to learn to master the. transition states between waking and. going to sleep, right? Many people can't. fall asleep. Many people just kind of like can't turn. it off. You can learn how to do that by. doing things like non-sleep deep rest, some long exhale breathing, simple. self-directed zero-cost tools that help. adjust your autonomic nervous system to.

be more what we call parasympathetic, more rest and digest. Just long exhales. Might not work the first time, but over. time these become very effective tools. to self-direct the shift from forward. center of mass to flat-footed, just kind. of laying back, back on your heels, and. there you go, you're off to sleep. When. you wake up in the morning, some people. are just depleted. Maybe you didn't. sleep enough, but learning to get. forward center of mass shouldn't. require, you know, excess caffeine and. stimulants and super loud music and uh. you know, a shocking text or email.

Ideally, you can transition pretty. quickly into being forward center of. mass, but not full tilt forward center. of mass. Why do I say this? I think for. anyone who seeks to be successful in any. domain, academics, business, creative. endeavors, whatever, if you want to have a long arc life and. a long arc career, you. really strive to control these. transition states. And when I say. control, all it really takes is paying. attention to them. And paying attention to the fact that. yes, some people just have inherently. more energy. They can do every single.

workout at max output, then shower, they're talking in the gym, then they're. off to the Some people are like that. Some people, like myself, if I give 100% to something. in the morning, by the afternoon, I'm a. little bit depleted. So, I require a 10. or 20-minute non-sleep deep rest or a. nap or just some quiet long exhale. breathing, maybe a little bit of. caffeine, which I'm drinking now. I. mean, there's nothing wrong with healthy. stimulants, provided they're consumed in. moderation. Maybe an energy drink, those. can be great, too, for some people. And then,

you know, really going like full tilt, focusing one's attention. And then. afterwards, taking a few moments, just. moments to downshift. I think we hear so. much about the power of meditation or. non-sleep deep rest or ice baths. What. do What do cold plunges and cold showers. do? They stimulate the release of what? The catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, long. duration release. That's why it's. useful, in my opinion. For all the. debate about deliberate cold exposure, does it increase metabolism? Does it. not? The answer seems to be probably not. much. But it's absolutely clear that it.

causes a huge increase in adrenaline, dopamine, and norepinephrine that are. very long-lasting, and that makes you. feel great, especially when you get out. of the cold. And I think that's the. value of it. It also saves you on your. heating bill. Like you don't have to. have a cold plunge, you take a cold. shower. Nobody likes it, but the point. is you get out and you feel different. It's a state shift. So, that's great, but you don't want to do it to excess, because then, you know, for instance, people always say, "How long should I go.

in the cold plunge or cold shower?" And. I say, "Do it the minimum amount, so. that you get the effect that you're. seeking, which is to be more alert and. motivated." I have a friend, he did 30. minutes, for some reason, naked. He. said, "I did 30 minutes naked in the. cold plunge, and then I got sick, and. I'm feeling really low." And I'm like, "Because you did 30 minutes." I mean, I. don't know about the naked part, what. that had to do with it. He had to throw. that in there, he's kind of an extreme. guy. And. I said, "How about 1 minute? How about. 30 seconds? How about don't even pay. attention to the time. Just get in and. stay in as long as until you want to get.

out, and then push through that barrier, and then get out." That might be a. minute, might be 3 minutes. You know, protect yourself, be safe, but. just learn to overcome some challenge. and then get out. You know, we have this. fixation that more is better, and more. is not better. You want the minimal. effective dose, maybe a little bit more, because we don't know where minimal is. People say, "How many sets in the gym?". Is it, you know, now it's like all about. the volume hypertrophy or like I've. always fairly low recovery quotient. So,

for me, I like to do couple warm-ups, a. few hard sets, two or three hard sets, another exercise, two or three hard. sets. That's it for that muscle group, move on. People always say, "Well, volume is where it's Okay, great, but. when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per. muscle group, I'll tell you, I I'm. depleted. It doesn't work for me. And I. sort of um. Well, I'll just be honest, I kind of. chuckle at the exercise scientists who. say, "Well, this is the way it is in. this study." Great. That's not how it. works for me. And even though I'm a. scientist and I trust data, I also trust.

my own experience. And no one's going to. tell me that it's placebo, because it's. what's worked for me. So, I think that. you have to find what your capabilities. are, and I do think if you look at dog. breeds, of which I'm obsessed by, if you go to a dog show, which everyone. should go to a dog show once, but don't. watch the show, go behind the show where. you see all the different dog breeds. What you'll see is what I saw the first. time I did that. You have dogs where they're wagging. their tail all the time. They're super. excited, they're alert, you can see. their eyes, right? They're just. bright-eyed.

You can see the Great Danes. They're super still. And then my. favorite breed, and the reason I own. them, is the bulldog. The s- essence of. economy of effort. They don't even lift. their head off the ground. You walk. over, you can pet them, they'll like. look up at you, they might wink. Very. still animals. Very powerful, but very. still animals. Now, I'm not wired like. that, as you're probably getting the. impression. I have a little bit more. spontaneous movement, etc. So, I need a. lot of mental and physical stimulation. in order to be happy, in order to feel.

fulfilled. So, for me, there was a lot. of work, and I still do a lot of work in. order to learn how to downshift, take it. down, become a good sleeper, become a. good resetter, reset myself during the. middle of the day with things like. non-sleep deep rest, which for me has. been one of the most powerful tools, or. long exhale breathing, to just. bring myself down. Other people, they. tend to have a little bit less energy. than life demands of them. So, they need. to do a bit more cold shower, a little. bit more caffeine, but then those people. probably need a little bit more rest. They're like the bulldogs of life. I.

think even though we're all the same. species, just like dogs, there's a lot. of variation there. So, you have to know. thyself, as the oracle said. Understanding a little bit about the. catecholamines, understanding that. certain things like exercise, deliberate cold exposure, stimulants like caffeine and. prescription drugs like Adderall, etc., s- powerfully cause the release of these. catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine, leading to big. increases in energy and focus, but then. always, always, always there's a cost, a. trough that follows. Accept that. Relax.

through it. Then return to baseline and then go. forward. Or avoid those things. altogether. I'm not telling people what. to do. Obviously, the prescription drug. thing in particular can be, you know, problematic for some people, even and. And certainly, I'm not a fan of drugs of. abuse like cocaine amphetamine. Absolutely categorically never done. them, never will. And then other people who tend to veer. toward, you know, being hyper-activated. A lot of spontaneous movement. These. people tend to be a little bit thinner,

a little bit leaner, or just have a ton. of natural energy. Um these people should really learn to. incorporate more kind of. what I would call calming and relaxing. practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than. cold plunge. Maybe don't crank the sauna. to 2 20. You know, I find myself doing. that. I'm like, just relax. Like enjoy. the sauna. And so, I think the key to a. good life and a productive life is again. to learn to master the transition. states, understand some of the biology, and to really. know yourself not just your natural.

tendency more bulldog-like versus, you. know, uh I don't know pitbulls always. have their tail going the last. spontaneous movement. Uh there are other. breeds as well. But also know that on. any given day you may be more or less. rested. You might be more or less. depleted from life experience. And kind. of recognize where you're at and figure. out what's optimal for that day. In fact, I forget who the guy is. He's. on Instagram and and there are a lot of. self-help account out at then there are. a lot of self-help accounts out there, but one of the best things that um I've.

heard recently and I tried to. incorporate it in uh into my life. In. fact, it's in my notebook is when I wake. up in the morning I sort of take stock. of where I am in terms of how rested I. am. I certainly take stock of what I. need to do that day. And then I ask, what's something that I can do to make. my life that day and the life of others. better. Sometimes that means rest a little bit. more. Sometimes that means push a little. bit more. Sometimes that means call a. relative that you haven't spoken to. But. thinking about how to make things better.

on the time scale of a day. for oneself and for others, I think is. what's manageable. And it's what's. realistic. And it takes this whole. concept of protocols and biohacking and. prescription drugs and supplements and. workouts and it and it brings a. real-world perspective to it. So, I think we're living in the um in. the time of. kind of um. almost avatars of these different. things. Like I think about David Goggins. who I know well I've well at. from the perspective of co-worker, right? Where I'm like I consider him a.

friend, but we've never hung out outside. of the work context. But I first met. David back in 2016. And I'll tell you. he's always that way. At least when I've. interacted with him. He's. always been, you know, forward center of mass. He was late in. the day on a work This was a thing in. Silicon Valley. He was down in San Jose. Um Santa Clara San Jose area. In I. believe it was 2016 and we had been. working all day in this part of this. consult for this company. And in the afternoon, you know, there. was like, do we take a break? Should we.

push? He's like, oh, we push. We're. going to do this. And I thought, wow, like this guy's intense. And he was. changing cuz he was going to run to the. airport, but not. run to the airport in an Uber. or drive to the airport. He meant run to. the airport. And he did. So, you know, he's forward. center of mass. He clearly has the. energy or he's found the energy. Can you. train that? Can you raise your sort of. baseline dopamine level? Um Or are they. two separate questions? It's a great question. I don't know that. we have the answer. I think you can if.

you become more economical about. whatever. dopamine or other neurochemicals you. happen to harbor inside. We know there's. a lot of genetic and individual. variation to these things. You know, there's a joke among parents, right? Like how they come out is how they stay. Like the the mellow kid, the mellow baby. that didn't cry much. The happy baby. remains the happy person. I you know, there are circumstances that can alter. that. Versus the fussy baby that's. always fussy as even as an adult. You. know, parents talk this way, but parents. say all sorts of things. Um but you.

know, I know people for instance like. Rick Rubin for for instance who is. very high energy, but very calm. It's. part of Rick's magic. He knows how to. regulate and control his energy. He has. this uncanny capacity to get near things. in particular um art, music, and to. experience them, really feel them, but. not get absorbed by it. Not feel. at least to my my knowledge depleted by. it. Some people get kind of absorbed by.

things and then depleted. Is it like the. introvert extrovert conversation as. well? Because two people can be in the. same room and I I mean I'm I consider. myself to be a bit of an extrovert. sorry, introvert where if I stand in a. room for 2 3 hours doing small talk, I I. I the way I describe it is like my brain. feels fried. Mhm. Whereas my assistant. Sophie, it's like you've poured fuel. into her. Yeah. Uh I'm similar to you. and um I have an ex-girlfriend who loved. parties. She would just get so much. energy from parties. And I like certain.

parties, but I like the the small. conversation I might have at a party is. um. so that resonates with me. I think we. can shift. well, to answer the introvert extrovert. question, I do think that some people get energy. from social interactions, other people. less so. But I know people who are quite. quiet who like social interactions. They're just more an observer in those. interactions as opposed to a. participant. The introvert extrovert. thing also, at least my understanding of. the science is that it depends a bit on.

how quickly you fill up. with social engagement. Like I I like a. good party, but after a couple hours I'm. like done. You know, and other people. they can just go go go go go go. They. get more energy from it. I think, you know, we think of Goggins as kind of a an. iconic example because he is of somebody. who is capable of pushing himself. regardless of what the internal. narratives might be. That's my sense. having spoken to him about it on my. podcast and observed him on social media. and other podcasts.

Some people like Jocko Willink embody. the. don't even think about it. You do it. because it's 4:30 in the morning and at. 4:30 in the morning you work out. Like. don't think, do. Um whereas when I think of David, I. think of many things, but in particular. about overcoming the voice in the mind. that's trying to pull you down and. defeating that. In fact, having multiple. representations of self in the brain, which is a fascinating thing unto. itself. And then when I think about. Rick, I think, you know, Rick is I. iconic in my mind for his sense of.

creativity, his ability to sense. what is truly new and unique. He has. incredible taste, right? To really be. able to sense like this is new and. different and exciting. And he seems to. understand. without trying to seek what people are. going to like, what people inevitably. love. So, that's his one of his many. superpowers. And everyone has their superpower. Those. are just so extremes. I think of Lex. Friedman as.

somebody who. is so thoughtful. And. I mean, I don't think people really. understand just how hard Lex thinks. about the tragedies of the world, the. darkness in the world, but also the love. that's in the world. I mean, he really. like hyper-affiliates. with what's happening. in his mind. And he's able to really. like absorb himself in that. And you can. feel like his his like he gets right up. next to the fire, like right up next to. these things. And.

I think he represents. kind of iconic example of. an explorer who will look anywhere even. if people are going to. give him a hard time for it. But I think. mostly people celebrate him for it. You know, so I think you know, different. people have different lenses on life and. different capacities. I think if one. wants to increase their baseline level. of dopamine, I think it's important to. regulate those peaks and troughs. I'm not. a believer in like never having peaks in. dopamine. A great wedding party. Like.

I've been to some weddings where you. just like partied all night. Or great. concerts. I'm actually a huge fan. It's. kind of a. uh. genre of music I don't know much about, but I've always loved that band James. Do you know the band? We are James. Uh. it's so good. Okay, I'm going to lose. punk points for saying this, but. best live shows ever. Just the best live. shows I've ever seen. And I know there. are and I and I know there are a lot of. different ideas about best live shows. based on genres of music. I just It's. like the best party you've ever been to.

Mhm. And. I. get a lift in energy that lasts 2 3 days. from that. I don't consume any. substances at those shows. They happen. very seldom, but when I've gone for 2 or. 3 days I feel like a changed person. It's a market shift in neurochemical. state. And I don't feel a trough. afterwards. So, I want to be very clear. There are certain things like. celebrations, concerts, they seem to. give us these big surges in. neurochemicals, but they don't leave us. depleted. And I'm very intrigued by.

these experiences. Because when I look to some examples, I. have some friends who've been very. successful in the tech sector and. finance sector. They make a lot of. money. And I always worry about them. afterwards. Inevitably they end up. depressed, not knowing what they want to. do. So, I always encourage them to keep. working. In fact, the happiest people in. tech and finance are the ones that keep. working even after they get rich. So, the people I see who are very happy. are the people who. take stock of their natural levels of.

energy, curiosity, motivation. You know, we could say dopamine, but that's kind. of a surrogate for a bunch of other. things. And it's incomplete, right? There are other chemicals involved. But. for sake of conversation, we could say. dopamine, catecholamines, epinephrine. And they sort of know what they're. capable of on a consistent basis. I. think one of the best pieces of advice. that I ever got was from a neurologist. by the name of Bob Knight when I was a. graduate student. He said, figure out. how much work you can. over the course of the next 4 to 5 years. on a consistent basis cuz it's going to.

change as you get older. Might not even. go down. So, for instance, I know that I can work. a good solid 12 hours a day. That's me. 12 hours a day. Five maybe six days a week, but I like. one full day off per week. I I just like. that. Typically, it's Sunday for me. I'll do some exercise and some other. things, but if I try and go 15 hours a. day or 12 hours a day 7 days a week, I'm going to run aground. For other. people, they need to work less. And now.

some people will say, "Okay, but do you. have kids and this and that?" I'm not. saying what work means. It could be. career, it could be family, or both, but. I'm not somebody who has an infinite. amount of energy, but I have a lot of. energy. If you have less energy, you can. do things like try and get great sleep, try and eat. as well as you possibly can. You may. have to do more to get more energy, but. sort of have to accept your own. um kind of baseline state. And I think. I certainly know many people who are. like mellower, calmer,

have {quote} {unquote} less energy. They're just more efficient with that. energy. They place it correctly. They're not wasting their energy. I know. people that can scroll Instagram all the. time, talk about what's going on on. Twitter, watch three podcast, program, and do a million things, and like. they're fine. So, I think we have to. know where our groove is, and that we. can deviate from that about 15 to 20%, but anything more extreme than that, we're going to end up in trouble. I. think a lot of the reason why people are. curious about dopamine is because for. ultimately, they want to be more.

productive or effective at some goal. they have in their life. So, it might be. building a business, it could be some I. could be a podcast, whatever. So, taking. everything you know about dopamine and. how it works, if you were giving me. advice on how I could be a better. entrepreneur, podcaster, whatever, um. the first thing I got from you was. really about this idea of transitioning. between states, and also allowing time. for my reserves to replenish after a. high dopamine activity. Mhm. Um is there. anything else that I should be thinking. about? Yeah, so we could um.

operationalize this in a very clear way. Get enough sleep for you. For some. people, it's 6 hours, for some people, it's 8 hours. I'd like to dispel the. myth, even though my friend Matt Walker. will probably get upset at me for saying. this, not everyone needs 8 or 9 hours of. sleep. Okay? I got 6 last night. Okay? I. actually went to bed at midnight last. night. Oh, excuse me, I got 6 hours and. 45 minutes last night. I went to bed at. midnight, which is kind of late for me. Woke up at 6:45. But, get enough sleep. If you wake up in. the morning and you can't get more sleep. for whatever reason, can't fall back.

asleep, or you have to get out of bed, if you do not feel rested, I recommend. doing a 10- or 20-minute non-sleep deep. rest or yoga nidra protocol. They are. available zero cost on YouTube. You. could put NSDR my name if you want to. listen to me do one. You could put NSDR. Kelly Boys does wonderful yoga nidras. She has a very pleasant voice if you. prefer a female voice. There's some wonderful yoga nidras by a. woman named Kamini Desai. Anyway, these. are all zero cost scripts that are. available on YouTube. What is that? So, you um so, non-sleep.

deep rest. Cuz you did one today. You did one. today. I did one today on the way here. Yeah. Here's what we know it does. Replenishes. baseline levels of dopamine in the basal. ganglia. Prepares you for action, both. mental and physical action. Can indeed help offset some of the sleep. that maybe you didn't get, but you. needed. We know that the brain goes into a kind. of pseudo sleep in this state. And there's also some evidence that yoga. nidra and similar practices can improve.

rates of learning. Okay, so that's sort. of the the benefits. What is it? It involves what most people. will call meditation, but it's different. than meditation. You lie down. You could. do it seated as well, but you lie down, eyes closed, and you do long exhale. breathing. When we exhale, we actually slow our. heart rate down. I could talk about how. this is this is through respiratory. sinus arrhythmia. This is a relationship between the vagus. nerve and the beating of the heart, but. in any case, when we inhale, our heart actually speeds up its beat.

slightly, and when we exhale, it slows. down its beat slightly. So, it involves. a lot of long exhale breathing. It involves a body scan where you. deliberately relax different aspects of. your body. So, your first your feet, then your legs, then your hands. It's. sort of a body scan of sorts with long. exhale breathing, and it takes you into. a state that's pseudo sleep. You're. somewhere between sleep and awake. Now, the beauty of NSDR and yoga nidra. is that. part of the instruction at the beginning.

is to stay awake. Now, if you fall. asleep, it's okay. Just make sure you. set an alarm if you have to go to work. or do something else. But, by staying awake, while being very relaxed, it seems that. the nervous system can continue to stay. in a sleep-like state enough that you. replenish some of these neurochemicals. that prepare you for cognitive and. physical action. Now, there are 10-minute NSDRs, there. are 20-minute NSDRs, there are even. hour-long yoga nidras and things of that. sort. So, it depends on how much time. you have before you need to get up. So,

if you sleep well the night before, you. wake up after 6-8 hours, and you're. ready to go, boom, go. But, if you're not, I highly recommend. doing a 10-, 20-, or 30-minute NSDR. practice. You will find that you will be. far more rested. You will feel far more. mentally and physically vigorous when. you emerge from that. It's remarkable. And Matt Walker's laboratory and I are. gearing up to do some studies on this to. figure out exactly what's happening. Is. the brain really going into sleep, or is. it something, you know, entirely.

different? We don't quite know yet. In any event, it most certainly works, and. soon we'll know the exact mechanism in. the brain, but this dopamine re- but. this re-upping of dopamine is very, very. clear from the existing studies. So, what are you doing there? You're. essentially filling the reservoir for. the day of activities. Okay? Then, I recommend hydration, which has a. profound effect on energy levels. So, 16. to 32 oz of water. People debate, drink out of plastic or.

don't drink out of plastic, do you have. to purify your water, etc. You know, listen, it depends on budget and. interest and level of paranoia. I drink. a filtered water. I tend to drink out of. ceramic or glass, but I am somebody who. will occasionally drink out of a plastic. water bottle. I'm I'm not neurotic about. that sort of thing, but look, if you. are, fine. And we could all do well to. limit the amount of plastic waste in the. oceans. So, there you go. Hydrate. Then, some people, like myself, do very. well to get some exercise and sunlight,

ideally simultaneously, but certainly. get some sunlight. and exercise prior to caffeine. Some. people do, some people don't. Okay? I also understand and totally support. people who just want their coffee or tea. first thing in the morning. There's no. rule that says that you can't do that. But, for me, what I would do is I'd get. up, use the restroom if you need to, hydrate, and then get some bright light. in your eyes, ideally from sunlight. first thing in the morning. Why? Well,

there's a whole story about circadian. biology here that I could tell you, but. I've done that many times before. Suffice to say that getting bright. light, ideally from sunlight in your. eyes, even through cloud cover. So, if. you're in the UK, even through cloud. cover, increases the amount of cortisol release. in your brain and body markedly. That is a good, healthy increase in. cortisol that is associated with the. transition to waking up. So, we know. that bright light in the morning, especially from sunlight, increases. daytime mood, focus, and alertness, and.

it will improve your sleep later that. night. Can I ask then, cuz I woke up in. a hotel this morning, and because of. you, I now think about sunlight a lot. So, I woke up, and I have a balcony in. the hotel, but I can't see the sun, cuz. the sun is on the other side of the. hotel. Right. So, you're west-facing in. the morning, and it's coming up in the. east. So, here's the ideal circumstance. You go outside, you take your sunglasses. off. Eyeglasses and contacts are fine, even if they have UV protection. You. face east. It's a clear morning. The sun. is there. Maybe it's even rising across the.

horizon, and you watch it for 5-10. minutes, and then you go back inside and. carry about your day. Here's the. realistic situation. You wake up, you're. in a hotel or an apartment, you've got. things to do, your phone is on, etc. What do you do? Get out onto the. balcony, get some natural light. The. ambient light, as we say, is still far. brighter outside, even on an overcast. day, than it would be indoors with the. brightest possible overhead lights. Now, there are seasonal affective disorder. lights, so-called SAD lights, that are. designed to generate 10,000 lux or more,

and simulate sunlight. There's really no. simulation for sunlight, but those. special lights are a special. circumstance. Here's what I know for sure, and. everyone will agree, that it's much. brighter outside, even on an overcast. morning, than it is at night. Okay? You can see, even on an overcast. day, typically without a flashlight. That tells you there's a lot of photons, a lot of light energy outside. So, the. best thing to do is just get outside, especially on overcast days, and get. some ambient light in your eyes. When I.

say view morning sunlight as soon as. possible after waking up, two questions. always emerge. First is, what happens if. I wake up before the sun comes out? Well, listen, unless you have powers. that I'm not aware of, you're going to. have to wait for the sun to come out. Okay? I just don't have any way to make. it rise any faster for you. So, and if. you do, please like email me and let me. know how that's done. But, the point here is that on an overcast. day, or even if you're not looking in. the direction that the sun happens to be. rising, you're still getting sunlight. The. photon energy is what arrives at your.

eyes, eventually triggers activation of. cells in the neural retina, this. pie-crust-like tissue that lines the. back of your eyes, and signals to your. brain it's time to wake up. So, when I say view morning sunlight, a. lot of people think they need to see the. sunrise across the sunset. I don't mean. you need to see the sun as an object. You need to see the light emitting from. the sun. And even on overcast days, that's there. Now, on densely overcast. day in the thick of winter in the UK or. Scandinavia, it can be quite dark, even. in the morning and throughout the day.

In that case, you'll really want to. strive to get some bright artificial. light exposure in the morning and. throughout the day as well. But this business of getting some light, we can put light in capital letters, not. necessarily seeing the sun as an object, but getting sunlight in your eyes early. in the day increases that cortisol peak. and its duration. This is. great for your immune system. It's great. for alertness. And when we hear. cortisol, normally people think bad. Oh, cortisol is bad. No, cortisol is. terrific. You need cortisol. Trust me, people who have deficits in cortisol.

production. or regulation have all sorts of. problems. We're talking about getting a. healthy big cortisol early in the day. that carries your energy until the. evening and then the cortisol drops off. What about shift workers? Shift workers, God bless them. They're essential for so. much of what we do and consume and need, so we have to be grateful to them. They unfortunately are in a very. compromised health state. Often they. have digestive issues, mood issues. It's. a real problem and it's very dependent.

on the particular shift. The worst case. scenario for them is the swing shift. where they're working days, then they're. working nights on the order of, you. know, 3 days on, 3 days off, etc. It's. terrible. We know that health outcomes. for shift workers are so much worse. We. know that a few things can help. For. instance, regular meal and exercise. times. Okay. We know that red light, and. here I'm not talking about red light. therapy, I'm talking about. working under lights that are a bit more. um red shifted, long wavelength shifted.

as we say, as opposed to bright. fluorescent lights can help reduce some. of the cortisol release associated with. shift work that occurs at the wrong. times. This is a pretty nuanced topic um. that again depends on the shift. Um. ideally one doesn't work shifts their. entire life. If you absolutely have to do shift work, go to your boss, tell them I said this. Try and stay on the same schedule, even. if it's a nocturnal schedule, which is. the most unhealthy schedule. Try and. stay on the same schedule for at least 2. weeks before shifting back to another.

schedule. If you're somebody who's. required to stay up until 3:00 in the. morning and then sleep until 11:00 a.m., does that mean that viewing morning. sunlight, your morning at 11:30 a.m. is. not useful? No, it's still useful. Try. and keep things as regular as possible. That's my advice. But for people who are. on a typical, what we call diurnal, daytime active, as opposed to nocturnal, nighttime active schedule, this business of hydration, sunlight, movement, even if it's skipping rope for.

5 minutes or jogging in place or just. swinging one's arms or getting a little. walk in in the morning, immensely beneficial. If you can do a full workout first thing. in the morning, great. If you don't have. time for that until later in the day, I'll be the first to say exercise. when you can do it consistently. So, if. it, you know, don't think that if you. don't work out in the morning that you. shouldn't do it later. We know. everybody, for sake of longevity and. immediate, I guess what we call health. span and lifespan, and well-being for that matter, should. be doing at least 2 or 3 days per week.

of resistance training of some sort. This is true for men and women. and cardiovascular training in order to. ensure healthy neuromuscular. connections, brain health, heart health. This is just very, very clear. If you do. that early in the day, fine. If you do. that on your lunch hour, fine. If you do. that in the evening, fine. Just make. sure whatever you do in order to get. that workout, whatever caffeine or. pre-workout that you're taking. doesn't inhibit your ability to get a. great night's sleep because sleep is the. ultimate restorative. It's what really.

is the foundation of mental health and. physical health. And I can say, if you. want to be, because this question. started off, what can you do to be, you. know, have the best dopamine system, the. best energy, the best creativity, as you move through your day, notice. your energy levels. E. Well, certainly I believe that people. should eat. mostly non-processed or minimally. processed foods. That's very clear, regardless of whether or not you're. vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or. carnivore. And eat amounts and foods that allow you.

to have sufficient mental energy. So, for me, that largely means. high-quality protein and fibrous. vegetables and fruit throughout the day. What's your vice? Any carbohydrate with melted Parmesan. cheese. So, thin-crust pizza, pasta with. with uh Parmesan cheese, especially if. there's like a diet Coke nearby, or oh goodness, I can just consume, consume, consume. It is very hard for me.

to hit my threshold with those things. This is a slight tangent, but I will. return to this dopamine conversation. It's it's it's related, but when you. have that. thin-crust pizza or that, whatever food. that spikes your dopamine. For me, I've. got a bit of a sweet tooth, so that's my. advice. Carrot cake or something like. that. carrot cake's good. Especially if the. ratio of the Yeah, it's ratio. to the cake part is set right. If it's. too much frosting or too much cake, it. yeah, exactly. Um no go. But if it's just the right. ratio, So, if I I had that carrot cake. yesterday, which no one knows about, I.

kept it to myself, but does that mean. that I'm more likely, with the. understanding of dopamine, to want. carrot cake again tomorrow, the day. after, because I've got into a bit of a. carrot cake cycle? Cuz I think. everybody, when they think about their. relationship with sugar, understands. that if they just laid off sugar for. like 3 or 4 weeks, the craving seemed to. die down. Yeah. It's an interesting question. I don't. think we have the exact answer. Some. would argue that we should have more of. a kind of balanced relationship with. food whereby if we really crave. something that we should allow ourselves.

it, provided it's not some addictive. substance or something. You don't You. addicts relapse. Um here we're talking about food. We're. not talking about drugs of abuse, etc. But is food not addictive in the same. way? Well, food can be very compulsive. I think some people are addicted to. food. Um I You know, I define addiction as a. progressive narrowing of the things that. bring you pleasure. We could probably. attach to that, you know, the classic. definition of addiction is where.

continued consumption or um engagement. in a given activity is actually. maladaptive for your life, all right? I. mean, if you have four pieces of carrot. cake this week, I doubt, given you the. shape that you're in, it's going to. shorten your life. You might not feel. great, but it's not going to shorten your life. You're certainly not going to like lose. your income um like somebody who's a. gambling addict would. Um this kind of. thing. You're not going to throw your. life away or go rob somebody in order to. get that carrot cake, although But but. is it doing that? That And I'm pointing.

now at the dopamine wave thing. Am Am I. having a dopamine crash? You are. And Anna Lembke describes this. best. Um and you can do this experiment. It's kind of a fun experiment for you. chocolate lovers. Abstain from chocolate for say a week. And then pick your favorite chocolate. and take a little piece of that. chocolate and put it in your mouth and. taste it. And of course it will taste. delicious. It'll taste wonderful. But if you notice very quickly, your brain shifts to. a sense of wanting more.

Not so much savoring the chocolate that. you're eating, but wanting more. And. you're thinking about, well, how much am. I going to take? I'm going to take this. square. Oh, that other square next to it. broke off a little bit. Guess I got to. eat that one, too. So, that's the. dopamine system in action. And then what happens is. you eat half the chocolate thing and you. go, "Oh, I don't feel that good about. it, but I kind of want more anyway.". Why? Well, you're in that dopamine. trough. The same amount of something is. giving you diminishing returns. What's. the way to make that chocolate take. taste absolutely fantastic again?

Abstain. Now, there's also an interesting. phenomenon, and this is why I said I. can't be exactly sure how to answer your. question. accurately, that is. I have several friends, just by way of. example, who. reached their 40s quite overweight, 50s. quite overweight, 30 to 60 lb. overweight. And they'd come to me and. they'd say, "I want to lose weight.". Every single one of them has been highly. successful in rapidly losing that weight. and keeping it off the following way, and I'm not a nutritionist. I say, "You.

can eat meat, fish, eggs, chicken, fruit, and vegetables, and. that's it. And drink water and caffeine. And don't consume calories in. beverages.". And every single one of them lost. 30, 60 lb and has kept it off. Now, Layne Norton and I, who are friends and. colleagues in the health space, he'll say, "Well, they created a caloric. deficit, and so they lost weight." I'd. say, "Absolutely." I would also say, and. I think Layne would probably agree, although there's no randomized control.

trial to prove this, that in eating that. way, mostly whole, unprocessed, or. minimally processed foods, they did several things as well. One is. you start to learn the relationship. between how something tastes, its. caloric value, its. micronutrient and macronutrient value. What do I mean? When you eat a steak, like let's say a 12-oz ribeye, if that's. in your nutrition plan, meaning you allow yourself red meat. Let's say you eat that. You taste it. It's very savory. Hopefully it tastes really good. If it's.

cooked properly, it's a great cut. And your brain learns the relationship. between steak and calories and nutrients. and amino acids. There's this whole. amino acid foraging hypothesis of. nutrition. Then you eat fruit. You taste. the fruit. You actually taste it. Now, this is far and away different than if. you're consuming hoagie sandwiches and. hamburgers and cheeseburgers. There's. something about removing the bread. There's something about removing the. pasta. There's something about removing. those foods that I believe has nothing. to do with those foods being bad. In. fact, I love bread and pasta, high-quality bread and pasta, and I do.

consume those, but I'm not trying to. lose weight, nor gain weight. When people eat that way, meat, fish, eggs, chicken, fruits and vegetables, and nothing else for a couple of months, what every single one of them says is, "Well, then we had this party, and, you know, the kids were having. birthday cake, so I decided to allow. myself a slice of cake." They ate it, and it tasted disgusting to them. Or they in some cases threw up, or they. just felt like it was gross. Whatever positive association they had.

with it before, it no longer exists. And then they get right back on their. let's call it diet and they continue. along their way. And they're very. relieved to learn that they actually. enjoy healthy foods. I think that we can. rewire, in fact we know that you can. rewire your association between. nutritive value, taste of food, calories, and micronutrients. And so. when I hear about these highly. restrictive elimination diets where. people do only meat, which frankly does. not seem healthy to me. I think some. fiber from other sources is good, although I'm sure Paul Saladino will. come after me, will probably with a.

drumstick or something. Jordan Peterson. Or Jordan. Whatever Jordan's doing seems to be. working for Jordan, so I'm not going to. argue. People should do as they will, but you know, um. I'm an omnivore and I enjoy that. But. I think when people do elimination type. diets. the more important thing is that they're. learning this association between taste. and calories that seems to really work. for them and the pleasure of eating. certain foods and really dropping into. the the. quality and the taste of that food. When.

we crave a food and it's kind of an. indulgence food, like chocolate or. carrot cake or something it's more along. this dopamine uh transition from peak to. trough. Now, when I I love steak. My dad's. Argentine, I'm half Argentine, so I love. a great beef tenderloin or like a you. know like I love red meat, but I don't. eat two ribeyes. I eat one and I'm good. And so I think that there's something. very satiating about high nutritive. quality food that includes fruits and. vegetables and the vegans have their. choices and the vegetarians have their.

choices. And so so much of what we think. about when we think about dopamine and. food is yes, highly processed foods, candy, packaged goods, cookies, chips. they drive this craving for more but. people don't actually enjoy them that. much. They just require them. Or at. least they think they require them. So I. encourage anyone who feels addicted to. those foods to take a, you know, healthy. approach when you consume enough. calories, don't go on a crash diet, but. try eating really high quality.

unprocessed or minimally processed foods. for just a couple of weeks. At first. it's murder. They just can't do it and. then inevitably they call me and they. say. I feel so much better and I don't even. want that stuff anymore. It's. interesting how that then correlates. with your own motivation. And I it's we. fly out here to do this podcast and we. come out sometimes for two weeks, three. weeks, sometimes even four weeks and we. all eat the same thing pretty much. throughout the day for those four weeks. So it's almost a dietary intervention. for me because when we finish recording,

my food is going to be there and I know. what it's going to be. It's going to be. basically a salad with meat in it. So. vegetables, etc. And so it becomes this. like intervention. Going to LA is this. dietary intervention. What happens is. when I come here and have that salad. every day with various different meats. and various different vegetables every. day is my motivation to go to the gym. for some reason improves. Mhm. My sleep. ends up improving and it's like my that. one sort of dietary intervention has. this really downstream impact on. everything else. I get in the I get in. the best shape of my life. I'm. motivated. I feel good. I drive around.

It might also be the sunshine out here, but Mhm. And I just I I think people. don't realize that even as you say a. week or two having that dietary. intervention, well intervention, cutting. out the crap can have such a big. reframing on your perception of food, how you experience it. And now I'm. excited about the bloody salad. Yeah, it's wild how healthy foods become more. attractive to us the more we consume. them and the more we avoid unhealthy. foods. I think also a lot of people. don't know how great you can feel. getting some morning sunlight, great.

sleep, eating nutritious food. and once they do, once they experience. that lift in energy and mood, it's. kind of addictive in its own right. Mhm. Now, I also think it's important to not. be too restrictive, right? You know, around the holidays or something I I. mean I love a great slice of pie, like I. do these things. I think if one gets. enough movement then. you're fine. Um you know. if nothing else, this whole um kind of. trend toward the use of these GLP-1. glucagon-like peptide agonists like.

Ozempic and Mounjaro, if it's taught us. anything, it's that people are obese. because they. consume too many calories. They just. ingest too much relative to their. activity levels. And here, in particular. in the United States, people are walking. and moving far less. Most people get no. regular exercise and they consume about. 3,500 calories per day on average, so. they're just on a steady weight increase. for most of their life. More activity, less food intake is. fairly easy to accomplish if you do just. a few subtle things. So there are these. levers, these major levers like eating.

better. As you said, meat and salads. I. mean it's one of the most satiating. meals you can have. I also find that if. I consume fewer carbohydrates during the. day, this is just me, it runs. countercurrent to most everything you'll. read out there, but I like to fast. essentially until about 11:00 or noon. just cuz I'm not hungry. I like to. exercise in the morning. But then I'll. have a lunch that is some meat, some. salad, maybe some starch like a bowl of. oatmeal or rice, but not a whole lot. And then toward evening, my final meal. you know, dinner, which is around 7:00. or 8:00 p.m. generally includes a few more starches.

and a little less protein and I sleep. best that way. Some people it's the. opposite. They like a big bowl of. oatmeal and just a couple of eggs in the. morning and you know, and some nuts in. the afternoon and then they'll they like. a big steak for dinner. You know, I. think everybody's slightly different. Some people are just naturally have more. energy. I think about Jocko Willink. I. mean the guy has so much energy. And I think it's not a coincidence that. he works out at 4:30 in the morning. I. think that if you work out early in the. day, you often have more energy.

throughout the day. I find if I get my. workout done before 9:00 a.m., I have. more energy all day long. However, if I. work out mid-morning, late morning. pretty sleepy in the afternoon. Everybody's different. Is there like a. physiological rationale for that? There probably is. You know, as our body. temperature rises in the morning, we are. waking up. So when we exercise, we. accelerate that transition toward being. more alert. Now in the afternoon when. our body temperature typically peaks. after that is usually when we get a bit. sleepy. Typically after lunch, people.

get sleepy sometimes because of the. volume of food they've they've eaten. Most often it's because they've hit that. temperature peak in the early afternoon. And we know that as body temperature. drops 1 to 3° in the evening and night. time, that's when we fall asleep. In. fact, in order to fall asleep, your body. temperature actually has to drop by. about 1 to 3°. This is why, you know, sticking a foot out of the, you know, the comforter or if you have a cooling. mattress, which some people require. because they run hot, or keeping the. room cool facilitates falling asleep.

Although it's not completely the case, so I should mention the best scenario. would be cool room with warm blankets to. fall asleep and then toward morning sort. of a warmer environment. We actually get. a little bit more rapid eye movement. sleep, dream sleep. elaborate dream sleep toward morning. So. you can get really nuanced in this. stuff. All the biohackers know this, but. you know, basically if you work out. early in the day, you know, before 8:00. or 9:00 a.m., it's going to accelerate. that increase in body temperature and.

you'll feel more alert. this beautiful. phenomenon in circadian biology called. entrainment whereby, let's say you're. not a morning person, you hate mornings. If you force yourself to get up and. exercise at say 6:00 a.m. for 3 days in. a row by the fourth day, you'll. naturally start waking up around that. time. Because the circadian clock of the. brain, we call the suprachiasmatic. nucleus the main inputs that drive when. you're alert and when you want to be. asleep are sunlight exposure to the. eyes. This is the whole basis for that. morning sunlight exposure.

Physical activity. when you eat and social engagement. And. there could be a whole discussion about. this, but suffice to say that if you. start getting some morning light, some. exercise, maybe even before the sun. comes out, some caffeine, hydration, and. then a meal in the early part of the. day, your body will start to anticipate. all of those activities and even if. you're a so-called night owl, you'll. start to shift your clock toward being a. early riser and lo and behold, around. 10:00 or 11:00 p.m., you'll start to. notice you're getting sleepy. Then you. just have to have the discipline to turn. off the phone put it in the other room.

and go to sleep. I wonder that. I do. wonder if I'm a night owl because of bad. habits or because of some kind of. biology. Typically people fall into one of three. categories and it is genetically. determined. Uh you can be a morning. person. A more typical I would be. somebody who goes to sleep somewhere. between 10:30 and midnight wakes up. between 6:00 and 8:00 a.m. and then the. night owls who like to stay up till 1:00. or 2:00 in the morning, wake up around. you know, 10:00 or 11:00 a.m. It changes. with age.

I'm a bit of a weirdo in the sense that. I like to do most of my mental and. physical work between 6:00 a.m. and. noon. Then I'm not super effective in. the afternoon. My brain doesn't work so. well. I can take care of some little. things unless I offset that. And then. between 6:00 p.m. and midnight, I'm. alert again. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's my. Argentine roots, who knows. So given. it's the afternoon now and I knew that. we were going to be podcasting, what I. did is I did indeed get up at 6:45 a.m. I did a bunch of work this morning.

for the podcast, some other things. And. then on the way here. I did a non-sleep deep rest. I listened. to that for about 10 minutes. I'm I kind. of sensed I was somewhere in sleep. I. don't quite recall. And then when we. arrived, I'm a little bit groggy, a. little bit of hydration, a little bit of. caffeine and I feel completely alert. So. you can learn to offset these troughs in. energy. I think that at every stage of. life meaning for every 5-year block of. life, you can kind of predict what the. best schedule for you would be. So when. you're a baby, you slept all the time, that's your best schedule. When you were.

an adolescent, it was different. I have. a niece, she's 17 and I went and stayed. with my sister recently and it was. unbelievable. She went to bed. at 10:30 at night. Probably fell asleep. at midnight cuz she was on her iPad with. her friends. She would wake up the next day at noon. It's summertime. Get up, say hello, get a glass of water, go back to sleep and sleep for another. hour and that's exactly what she should. be doing. Why? Because she's growing, right? She's a she's youth in youth. In. your 30s, it might be a different. schedule, in your 40s, a different. schedule. And then, of course, kids come.

along and they force the schedule. So, I. would say whatever stage of life you're. in, you probably know what the best. schedule is for you, and you just have. to work with the realities of life. But, if you can adhere to that, knowing, okay, you have a peak in energy and. focus at this hour, a peak in energy and. focus at that hour, by all means, do it. I mean, Rick Rubin. shared, um, when he came on my podcast. that his best day is to transition. slowly into the day. Take a walk outside. in the sun in the morning. Slowly into. the day. And then, he does his work,

really his main focus work in the. afternoon and in the evening. Some. people are more night shifted, some. people are more morning shifted. I tend. to get my best ideas, I think, right. before I go to sleep, which is annoying, because there's this temptation to go to. my laptop and begin writing and begin. working. Do you write them down? Yes. Yeah. I write down little cues, and then. my team will know because it's useful. when I'm on this timeframe because my. team in the UK are getting my my memos. at 7:00 a.m. there. All right. don't know that I'm it's like midnight.

or 1:00 a.m. here. I'm so glad you. mentioned this. I think for people who. are interested in having a great life, a. great career, it's very important to. have a mode of capture. So, for me, um, it's this notebook, and. it's not just blank pages in front of. me, I promise. These are just like. little little things that come to mind. Um, it doesn't matter what's here. Um, and I place them into the notebook, and. then at the end of each week or so, or. if I'm on a plane, I'll start to look. back and see, you know, what are the. ideas that feel sticky? Like, oh, there's something there. There's like a.

concept there. I'm actually thinking. about doing a uh. a. drawing book to teach neuroscience at. some point. I'm also very interested in. animals, so I was listing out, this is. very, um, embarrassing, but the. different animals. that I feel I embodied at different. stages of my life and where I'm at now. because of the different energies. And I. know this is very personal, right? Like, in the sense that it's not going to mean. much in the kind of classic neuroscience. sense, but I think having a mode of. capture for these thoughts that. spontaneously arise out of our.

unconscious mind. I mean, that's what's. happening when you're falling asleep. Your conscious mind, which is involved. in thinking and planning and organizing. knowledge, is starting to tire. Those. prefrontal cortex circuits are starting. to tire, and your unconscious mind, which is the main driver of all your. ideas and so much of what you you are. about as an individual, are starting to. geyser to the surface. This is why in. dreams, even though it occurs in symbols, we are playing with different ideas and. ordering of different ideas. This is not. Freudian, okay? This is not just Jungian.

psychology. We had an expert in this, you know, Dr. Paul Conti did a mental. health series on our podcast, and he. said, you know, the bulk of your brain. activity, besides the stuff that's just. regulating breathing and heart rate and. digestion, et cetera, is really devoted to this unconscious. processing. It's taking events from your. childhood, plans that you have that you. don't even. know yet, that aren't aware of yet. Experiences that are happening today and. and looking at those from different. perspectives and offering those to you. in in what? In dreams. What are dreams?

In stories, in narratives that are. really disrupted in space and time. A. lot can happen in a short period of. time, then you're in a different room. Dreams are very distorted in terms of. their representation. But, when you're. falling asleep, you're in that pseudo. awake state, obviously, where your. thinking, planning, and action parts of. your brain, your logical mind is turned. off, and these ideas are geysering to. the surface. Mhm. And this is why. sometimes people have their best ideas. in the shower, while walking,

when they're not trying to have ideas. And you can see this by writing down a. few things before you go to sleep. You. can think, you know, like, wondering. what to do next year. Don't know. Okay, maybe it's that vague. Does that mean you'll have a dream that. solves it that night? Maybe, probably. not. But, chances are if you pay. attention to, you know, during the day, you'll be walking along, or for some. reason this always happens to me when. I'm I'm. uh. urinating? I don't know why. I don't. know why. Like, I go like, I don't know, maybe it's cuz I'm relaxed. Like, I go,

especially if I'm in nature and I'm. hiking, I'll go like, take a take a pee. behind a tree, and I I'll be like, oh, I have an idea. It's I don't know why it. is. I think it's because I'm not. thinking about doing anything except, you know, I'm taking a leak behind a. tree. I guess this is very forthcoming. for me to admit this, but, you know, some people say in the shower, other. people while they're running. One thing that I think is really useful. for coming up with ideas, I seem to be mentioning Rick a lot. today, but, um, one thing I observed. when I spent time with Rick is he has a.

kind of a practice, although he's never. said this formally, where he'll be very. still with his eyes closed, and I. thought, maybe he's meditating, maybe. he's, um, sleeping. And it turns out he. told me that his mind is very active in. that time, even though his body is very still. Now, that sparked something in me because I. have a guest, or had a guest on my. podcast by the name of Karl Deisseroth. He's one of the luminaries in the field. of neuroscience and one of the best. bioengineers in the world. He's also a. psychiatrist. A brilliant guy. And when.

he came on my podcast, he said that he. has a practice every night after he puts. his five kids to sleep. He's one of. these hyper-productive people, where he. sits down. and he makes himself stay as completely. still as possible. and forces himself to think in complete. sentences. And I thought, this is. interesting because it was also reported. or purported that Einstein would take. walks and then occasionally just stop. and let his mind continue in thinking.

while he stopped his body. And when you. start looking back through history of. science, history of music, et cetera, you'll find that there are these. hyper-creative, hyper-productive people. that have a practice of making their. body completely still and their mind. very active. Not meditation, where. you're trying to just focus on your. breathing, but they're actually actively. thinking while keeping their body very. still. Now, I find that fascinating. I. also find it fascinating that some. people, for instance, myself, if I take a long. run, which I do every Sunday, I make it. a point to run for 60 to 90 minutes.

every Sunday. Not fast, but I just go go. go go go. Inevitably, during those runs, I come up with some of my best ideas. It's a It puts my brain into a state. where I can things geyser up from my. unconscious mind. And so, that state of. mind is one in which the body is very. active, and I'm not trying to think. about anything. So, you have these two. inverse states. One is body still, mind. active. The other is body active, mind. kind of free running, kind of just like. spooling out. When I'm running, I'm not.

thinking about anything, and then ideas. spring to the surface. In the. neuroscience of creativity, we know that. there's a meditation practice that's. been studied called open monitoring. meditation. Most typical meditation is. you sit or lie down, close your eyes, maybe lotus position, maybe not, and you. concentrate on your breathing. You bring. your attention constantly back to your. third eye center. Work from Wendy Suzuki's laboratory at. NYU has shown just 10 to 13 minutes of. that practice every day can improve. memory, in particular, working memory,

which is your ability to keep thoughts. online, lower stress, and other benefits. There's a different form of meditation, which is open monitoring meditation, where you sit or lie down, close your. eyes, and you actually are paying attention to. everything around you. You focus your. attention there in the room, there in. the room, there in the room. Or, you. just let it all just kind of sift over. you. You're not actually focusing on. your breathing. And that practice of. open monitoring meditation. is associated with improved creative.

capacity. Now, improved creative. capacity, in air quotes, is something. that's measured in a laboratory. So, synthesis of new ideas, creative. solutions to a puzzle, et cetera. We're not talking about writing great. works of music, but in a laboratory, you. only have so many things that you can. sample or measure, typically in. undergraduate students. So, I'm kind of. just, you know, tossing all of this out. there as a means for people who are. interested in improving their creativity. or exploring creativity, to not just. wait, not just wait. Have a mode of.

capture. Write things down, or maybe jot them. into your phone or voice memos. Maybe do. open monitoring meditation. Maybe sit. and force yourself to think in complete. sentences with your body still. Maybe go. for a long run or walk where you're. bored, you're not listening to anything, and see what comes up. I think everyone. does this differently, but if you're. able to access this state of mind, it. can be immensely powerful because great. ideas come to you. So, movement was the last one in the. dopamine. We're doing this nice. dopamine, like, tree of things. Sleep,

we did the NSDR, non-sleep deep rest. We. did the hydration, exercise, sunlight. If I'm trying to. use what I understand now about dopamine. to be productive in my relationships, but also in my professional life, is. there anything else I need to be We also. did food. And you can spike your. dopamine and epinephrine and. norepinephrine, the so-called. catecholamines, with a cold shower or a. cold plunge. It is a state-shifting. tool. That's really what it is. I like. to do sauna and cold at least once a.

week. Most people don't have access to a. sauna. If you don't have access to a. sauna, no big deal, you can take a hot. bath, just don't scald yourself. And if. you're a male, now because of the Someone told me that. it might fry my sperm. Oh, yeah, let's have a very frank. discussion about that. It It won't fry. them, but it will definitely, um, deplete the number of viable sperm. So, if you are interested in conceiving, just understand that the cycle for. genesis of sperm, spermatogenesis, takes. place over the course of somewhere. between 60 and 90 days, depending on.

exactly what part of the cycle you're. referring to. Heat is not good for sperm. This is why. testicles exist outside the body, why. the scrotum can both contract and and. sort of relax. And if you go into a sauna or a hot tub. or a hot bath, you will lower the number. of viable sperm that you produce in over. the course of the next 60 to 90 days. So, if you're trying to conceive, you probably want to avoid those. circumstances unless, of course, you go.

into a sauna and you take a cold pack. with some insulation, please, and you. put it in your groin. Um that's a. straightforward way to maintain coolness. of the testicles and maintain sperm. while in the sauna. It's not going to. permanently deplete your sperm, but it. will dramatically lower sperm viable. sperm count forward motile sperm. We know this also from people that sit. too much or people that have larger. legs. I mean, these studies have. actually been done. If you look at the. correlation between amount of time. seated, especially driving or on a hot.

car seat, and sperm count and viability, there's. kind of an inverse relationship there. Does that mean that you should actively. cool your testicles? Well, there's a. whole culture of this on the internet. There are products that people can buy. I think they're What are they called? Snowballs? It's like a um I think. they're called um you know, which is. like uh cold uh underwear or something. I think that's getting a little bit um. excessive. Um. however, there's a kind of. basic understanding that heat isn't good.

excessive heat isn't good for sperm. And. the whole rationale behind cold plunges. for sake of testosterone and sperm. probably can only be substantiated by. the fact that if you get into a cold. bath or cold shower. and then you warm up, you vasoconstrict, so you reduce the blood flow to the. area, and then you're going to allow. much more blood flow into that area. after they warm up again. But again, heat is bad for the testicles. So, if you're not trying to conceive, no big. deal, or you could bring an ice pack in.

there. I will also say, and this is a. very important public service. announcement, don't think that you can. use hot tub or hot bath or sauna as. contraception. I don't know that it's that effective. And um I can assure you, without having. looked at the data, that uh many uh. child has been conceived despite the. fact that people were in a hot tub or. bath or sauna. Whether or not they were. actually conceived in the bathtub, hot. tub, or sauna is obviously none of my. business. Perfect Ted has quite frankly taken the.

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as it relates to dopamine is. pornography. I think pornography has become more. readily available now than ever before. Certainly. I can go on any social media. platform, especially X, and I scroll. down for long enough, I will be exposed. to pornography whether I chose to go and. seek it out or not. Yeah, it'll find you. It'll find you. On. pretty much every application. Um so, I. especially concerning for young people. who are in that those formative years. But what is your view on the on. pornography, dopamine, and the overall. social harm of pornography? Yeah, so this is a controversial topic.

because. obviously people. have different opinions on limiting. personal freedom, right? Um both. expression and consumption of of uh. pornography, right? Um but moving that. aside and just focusing on things. through the lens of biology and the. dopamine system, we know that. the more stimulating, the more intense. an experience, the greater the increase. in dopamine. I mean, it's very clear. based on neuroimaging studies that.

you know, more amphetamine causes bigger increases. in dopamine than less amphetamine. More cocaine causes bigger increases in. dopamine than less cocaine. Caffeine can. cause an increase in dopamine, but it's. not nearly the kind of increase, the. peak that is, that you observe with. amphetamine or cocaine, all right? So, we can't just say stimulants, and we. can't just say sex. We can't just say. pornography. We have to ask within the. domain of pornography, because we know. that sexual activity, and in particular.

anticipation of sexual activity, okay, this is important, anticipation of. sexual activity raises dopamine levels, then the question is. what is the range of things and the. range of dopamine increase? Now, while. there hasn't been. a very systematic exploration of this, we know that. you know, a lot of pornography. is extreme, right? It involves more than. two people. It can involve all sorts of. dynamics that for some people are going. to be hyperstimulatory, okay?

So, this is very different than, I. guess, what people would call soft. pornography, quote unquote, right? And. here these are subjective labels. So, let's just pick a hypothetical scenario. A person is. viewing a lot of, let's say, high. intensity, high dopamine for them. releasing pornography. Okay? For some. people, that might be pornography of. genre A. For other people, it might be. pornography of genre B. For somebody who. never looks at pornography, maybe it's.

quite mild, but for them, it's actually quite. intense in terms of the amount of. dopamine it releases. Now, what do we. know based on dopamine dynamics? Remember, dopamine is the universal. currency of motivation-seeking and. reward. It's not like there's dopamine. unique to pornography versus dopamine. unique to food. It's just a matter of. levels and duration. If somebody is consuming, let's call it, very intense, aka high dopamine. releasing pornography on a regular.

basis, what do we know? That peak in. dopamine will start to lessen. It'll be. lower and lower, and the trough. in dopamine after they view that. pornography will be. deeper trough and longer trough, meaning. they are very likely, we don't know for. sure, but very likely to seek out more. and more intense experiences to try and. just get them back to baseline. Pretty. soon, the pornography that at one time. was very stimulating for them is no. longer stimulating. Now, the concern. here is that and let's just be frank,

we're not just talking about viewing. pornography. We also have to ask. ourselves, what are people doing as they. view this pornography? This is. a conversation that should be had, but I. have to do it in a way where I'm not. imparting moral judgment on any of it. I'm not saying people should masturbate. or not masturbate. That's none of my. business, frankly. This is highly. individual. It relates to all sorts of. things in terms of values, et cetera. The point is, however, that we know that. orgasm is a dopamine-related event, and.

post-orgasm, there's a. increase in a molecule called prolactin. in the brain. Prolactin actually in part. sets the refractory period in which. there can't be further erection in males. and orgasm in males. Okay? And in. females, it really depends. I mean, there's this. whole world I mean, Dr. Rena Malik is um. far more skilled to discuss this than I. am about, you know, different types of. orgasms in women, et cetera. The extent.

to which multiple orgasms can occur in. some individuals, not others. I think. the general belief is that it's possible. in most anybody, um including males and. females, right? But that it's more. typical in females than in males, this. sort of thing. Here's the point. Dopamine and prolactin generally are in. a kind of a push-pull or seesaw. relationship, whereby. very stimulatory, high dopamine. releasing activities and pornography and. things like that increase dopamine, but. repeated exposure to that, regardless of. the activities occurring during that.

time, lead to big long troughs in. dopamine, such that more stimulation is. required just to get any sense of. arousal. We also know that prolactin, when that. is increased, tends to create a kind of. um subdued lack of. dopamine, I'm using these terms broadly, um. kind of amotivated, non-motivated state. There are reasons for this biologically, right? After ejaculation, the idea is. that animals won't then or humans won't.

then copulate again and again and again, at least not for some period of time. The duration of the refractory period is. highly individual. It's determined by. age, by species. There's the so-called. Coolidge effect. Are you familiar with. the Coolidge effect? I'm familiar with. post-nut clarity. Okay. Um slightly. different. There's an anecdote that um. at least to my understanding is true, at. least the Coolidge effect is a known. thing in neuroendocrinology, whereby. President Calvin Coolidge. reportedly was visiting a chicken farm.

with his wife. They were touring the farm, and there. were a lot of hens, and a lot of. chickens generally, and the docent who. was showing them around said, you know, this rooster here, pointing to a. rooster, copulates more than 300 times per day. It's remarkable. And Mrs. Coolidge turns. to President Coolidge and says, "You hear that? 300 times per day.". She's obviously quite impressed and. letting him know that. And Coolidge,

that is, President Coolidge, says, "Ah, but let me ask you a question. Same hen. or different hens?" And the docent says, "Different hens." Now, here's the. phenomenon, the Coolidge effect. It. exists in rodents. It exists in. chickens. It exists in dogs. People can speculate whether or not it. exists in humans, whereby. if an animal copulates, then the male is. in a refractory period lasting anywhere. from minutes to hours to days, depending. on age, species, etc. During that refractory period, they.

can't. achieve erection and or ejaculate again. But if you replace the mate. with a novel mate, the refractory period. is shortened substantially. Why? The answer is very clear based on. actual measurements of brain dopamine. Why? Because dopamine is also associated. with novelty. Now, the refractory period. probably serves an important. evolutionary role, whereby it improves. pair bonding so that post post.

ejaculation post orgasm, okay, here. we're interchangeably talking about. these for males and females. You know, anytime you hear ejaculation, then people think males, etc. Post. orgasm, post coital bliss, pair bonding, the sharing of pheromones, the sharing. of stories, you know, the sharing of. affection, right? The sharing of a bed. to sleep in. These things are intimately. involved in pair bonding. So, I'm not. saying that the refractory period is a. bad thing. What I'm saying is that. dopamine can overcome the refractory. period, but the refractory period itself. is largely due to an increase in.

prolactin that suppresses dopamine. So, let's go back all the way to this. question about pornography. What's the typical scenario? While this. is not something I choose to think about. a lot, you're talking about some. individual in their. apartment or home watching intense. dopamine stimulating pornography. in which they. presumably are aroused or not aroused. They do or don't do whatever they choose. to do, but that over time has less and. less and of an effect in getting them.

aroused. And keep in mind that none of. this necessarily translates to real. world human safe interactions between. individuals, right? Pornography is very. very different than real world sexual. interactions. So, there is a phenomenon. that is starting to surface on the. internet. What do I mean by that? I. mean, there are a lot of questions posed. in podcast forums in meaning in the. comment section on YouTube about is. pornography dangerous? Is it bad, etc. I.

think the thing that we can say for sure. is that. any behavior, any substance that. stimulates a lot of dopamine and that is. easily accessed without effort is. potentially problematic. Again, big increases in dopamine that. are not preceded by effort are. potentially problematic. Let's think. about methamphetamine. Huge increase in. dopamine. Was the brain designed to. release dopamine in response to. amphetamine? No. The brain was designed. to dole out dopamine, give out dopamine.

at a level and duration that is. commensurate with the pursuit of some. evolutionarily adaptive goal. Methamphetamine bypasses that, gives you. a huge surge in dopamine, which is why. people feel miserable afterwards. They. crave more just to get back to a lower. level of dopamine. Same can be said of. gambling in in particular in people that. are very prone to gambling addiction. Certainly can be said for food for. certain people that are very prone to. food addiction. Certainly. can be true for anything. But when it.

comes to pornography, because of the as. you pointed out, the ready availability. of pornography, in particular. let's just call it intense pornography. or that includes a lot of different. other stimulatory elements, multiple. people, high you know, a lot of. scenarios that um. can be accessed on the internet, right? Certainly not things I'm suggesting. people go look at, but that is. potentially problematic because it. raises the threshold of the person. that's viewing this as what is arousing.

to the point where pretty soon they need. those hyper stimulatory environments or. stimuli in the form of pornography in. order to get aroused. And again, none of. that translates into the ability to have. conversation with partners or the. ability to, you know, have discussion in. real world circumstances. And of course, everything we're talking about could. also be translated to real world. circumstances, but the data really point. to the fact that younger people in. particular are consuming more. pornography. So, we're talking about. bigger dopamine increases with less When.

I say effort, what I mean is kind of the. more traditional thing was, at least. when I was growing up, was you'd go out. on a date or you'd meet somebody and. you'd you know, there's a a series of. events that would happen prior to uh. physical interactions, right? So, this is potentially serious and. problematic. There's a lot of judgment. and understandably so, because people. arrive to this sort of discussion with a. lot of different backgrounds in terms of. religious backgrounds and what they. think is okay or not okay. What I can.

tell you for sure is that I hear from a. lot of young males about their. challenges with porn addiction and they. want to know how to get over porn. addiction. And the answer there is. difficult, but very simple, which is. abstinence. It's abstinence. It's taking. a period of abstinence from pornography. Maybe forever. Maybe reducing the. amount. This is where it gets very. tricky, very subjective, and it's almost. impossible to kind of have the. discussion without getting into some. murky territory.

Yeah. Um but it's a real issue. And I. know it's a real issue because I hear. from thousands over the last few years. of the podcast, I've heard from. thousands of males that are like. they were addicted to porn. How do they. feel? It sounds to me as if they feel very. dejected. And some of them actually have. said they felt very um kind of misled. Like almost like this thing this natural. stimulus for them was. dangled in front of them and they. just gravitated towards it the same way.

that any biological organism would. gravitate towards something that was. triggering its dopamine system. And now. they feel depleted and kind of stuck and. they don't know what to do. And I don't. necessarily think I'm the person to. remedy all of this. I certainly am not, but I think there needs to be a. conversation, much in the same way that. Jonathan Haidt has done an amazing job. with anxious generation of talking about. some of the severe detriments to overuse. of social media and social dynamics on. social media, in particular in young.

girls, and how we're now finally. realizing that we're in a mental health. crisis, at least in part because of some. of that, and we need to pay attention to. it. I think there needs to be a. discussion around pornography and some. of the challenges it can potentially. present, in particular for young males, which is not to say that girls and women. aren't also looking at pornography, because we know they are. The data tell. us that. But. it does seem to be more of a problem. that's being vocalized by young males. And this of course dovetails with the.

whole discussion about dating behavior. and how that's changed in dating apps, and you know, how the ready availability. of kind of the possibility or. anticipation of a partner is there, but. actual dating behavior and real world. sexual behavior is reduced. I mean, there's a lot that needs to be discussed. and you know, ideally we would have a. psychiatrist, a psychologist, and um a. kind of panel of experts to talk about. this. And maybe we do this together, you. know, as as a service to the world, because I hear about this a lot. Yeah,

for instance, just by way of contrast, I'm not getting a ton of YouTube. comments and emails from people saying, "Hey, you know, I really struggle with. uh. you know, with ribeye steak addiction or. with coffee addiction or energy drink. addiction." Maybe a little bit with. energy drinks, but it's not crashing. lives. It's not causing people to feel. depressed, miserable about themselves. It's not causing people to have sexual. dysfunction issues in real world. interactions. I mean, this is also the. concern, right? That young people are. getting so attuned to certain dopamine. dynamics related to pornography that.

they don't either get aroused or know. how to handle real world intimate. interactions. Erectile dysfunction, all those kinds of. things. For instance. I do I have to be honest. and I this is I just have to be honest. cuz nothing else is useful, but I. remember the first time I saw a. pornographic image when I was young and. it was just a picture of like someone. with like a nipple out. And it was the. most arousing. thing in the world. And obviously as. I've aged, I'm now 31, it would arouse I.

certainly wouldn't get aroused at seeing. like the thing that aroused me when I. was 16 or whatever that I found. For. example, in it and that as you were. saying, I was thinking, "Gosh, even my. arousal cycle as I've gotten, you know, over the last 10 years has changed. because of the availability of. pornography, but also just sex as a it. in real life is. is become more extreme as it tries to. keep up with the expectations that. pornography sets. And then I thought. about a lot what you said about people. messaging you, thousands of them, about. pornography and.

the unfortunate thing about the the. abstinence advice is it leaves them with. many of them with what alternative? I mean, one would hope um depending on, you know, the circumstances, that they. would seek out healthy relationships. And then this goes to the social. elements you described, which is it's. really difficult. And when we I've had. multiple people sit here saying to me. that really the top 10% of men that are. having most of the sex, and this bottom. percent 50% of men haven't had sex for a. year. I go, "So, you're you're going to. we got to tell a 19-year-old horny young.

man that he's got to abstain from. masturbation and pornography, and we. might not be able to offer him an. alternative for a year." Well, I'm not. telling anyone what to. know it's not you, but I'm Right. Or. maybe um But you got to. throttle back throttle back his behavior. or think about ways in which things he. could do could lead to healthy romantic. and sexual interactions, you know, assuming that, you know, he's of an age. and you know, the circumstances are are.

like for that. I think that. it's you know, as you can tell, as I'm. kind of stumbling here, I'm not trying. to be careful. I'm trying to be as. accurate as possible while also not. stating things that I don't believe are. true. Like, you know, can pornography be consumed by certain. people in a healthy way? Well, probably. yes. Um do a lot of people get carried. away with it and it starts to become a. detriment in their lives? Maybe even an. addiction, maybe even. impede other aspects of romantic and. workplace behavior.

Yes, we hear this all the time. Do you. know where I am now? I am at I'm. arriving at the position that I think. pornography is bad. Because, you know, again, I get lots of. DMs and messages and the more I've. understood about the brain and the body. and the and dopamine etc., I just can't. find a. net positive of pornography. I can't. find one. Especially as it relates to my. relationship with my partner. I've been. with her for 5 years now. And I do I. think that me watching pornography, especially if I'm watching it. frequently, is going to help my.

performance in the bedroom? Absolutely. not. Absolutely not. Yeah, it's sort of. um. what's that old saying? You want to get. good at push-ups, do push-ups. You know, probably the best place to get um good. at intimate conversation and behavior is. in the context of, like you said, like a. a great relationship. Mhm. um with great communication, that. sort of thing. I. I do hear about this. concern from people a lot. I think that. it's hard to imagine more benefits than.

kind of concerns or risks when it comes. to pornography, especially for young. males. I too grew up in an era where, you know, someone would have knowledge. of like a Playboy magazine or something. Typically, it was stashed someplace in. town and then people would go visit it, you know? Um. it was like a library or something. It. was it was sort of a like an urban. library type environment where, you. know, people would know, oh yeah, behind. the. it was always like a. dumpster or something terrible. It would. be like behind the dumpster or behind.

this building, like there's a there's a. stack of Playboys and like then people. would go there, right? Um. but it wasn't a big part of my. childhood. It wasn't a big part of my. life, you know? I never found any. pornography in my home. Like, you know, some kids will stumble across their. dad's magazines. I never had that. experience. Um I think that. a lot can be said about the requirements. and importance of. creating healthy dating behavior and. that's a real-world experience kind of.

thing. And, you know, this is a bigger. discussion that deserves a lot of time. Um I'm not sure we have time for it now, but you know, we're growing up in a. world where. so much of the input arrives through the. internet. Again, a low-effort threshold, high-dopamine scenario, right? Somebody. wants to find something on the internet, they just Google for it and they can. find it. Um you know, I think you want particular. food that's extremely tasty, you can. order it to your door.

Um this is. not potentially problematic, this is. problematic. What it requires. ultimately, however, I believe, is self-regulatory. mechanisms. There is no way that. legislature is going to prevent us from. having access to things. It's just not. because people have always found a way. You know, I mean, you think about um. prescription drugs that deliver dopamine. without much effort. You know, even if. people don't have a prescription, I. think the data are something like 80% of.

college students have taken prescription. stimulants without a prescription. I. mean, when I went to college, nobody did. that. Nobody. We drank coffee, occasionally someone would take a NoDoz, like a caffeine pill or something, and. that was considered extreme and I still. don't recommend it. Now, you know, there's all this consumption of. pharmacology, there's consumption of. porn, and I think that successful. individuals will learn. and understand this relationship about. dopamine, especially their own, and they. will learn to regulate, and they will be.

very careful about anything that spikes. dopamine really high without much. preceding effort and that has the. capacity for addiction. So, I worry far. less about the energy drink, the loud. music, and the workout, far, far less, maybe not at all, than I do. high-intensity pornography consumed on a. regular basis, people taking. prescription stimulants who don't need. them. I mean, that's a recipe for. burnout, depression, or worse. How does this kind of dovetail into.

having meaning in your life? Because I'm. thinking now about those young men. And. in that sort of stereotype, they're. maybe sat in their bedroom alone, probably don't have a romantic partner, maybe don't have a lot to be aiming at. in their lives, and. the group of people that fall into those. gambling addiction behaviors or that. pornography behavior, often times, not. always, but often, are also lacking in. some kind of meaning. Is there a like a. correlation between the two? Are they. associated? Um and does one help the. other? If I if I go out and start.

pursuing some great goal in my life, start a company, am I less likely to. then be engaging in the. dopamine-inducing pornography addiction? So, to answer the second question first, I absolutely believe that when we are in. pursuit of healthy goals, meaning goals. that are building our life forward, that. are going to improve our. social relationships, sure, your income, although, you know, it's risky to just. be in pursuit of money, right? There. there another great way to encapsulate. the dopamine conversation is I think. it's in that movie Wall Street where the. guy says, "What's your number?" You.

know, how much money do you want? And he. just says, "More." Well, that's. dopamine. That's the essence of. dopamine. He just wants more. It's not. really about a number, it's about the. pursuit and acquisition of money for. him. It's the verb of acquisition. It's. not having that money. And you see this. in people that get a million dollars, they want 10. They get 10, they want. 100. They get 100, they want to be a. billionaire, right? And I can tell you. knowing many billionaires that some of. them are happy and some of them are. intensely unhappy people. It really. depends on how well they've. managed their relationship to dopamine.

Because ultimately, it's not about. money, right? Dopamine is just a. currency. So, healthy relationships are. absolutely fundamental. Here's what we. know. Many, many people are struggling. nowadays from what we hear of as the. isolation crisis. But all it takes is. one. trusting, reliable relationship to start to shift. that in the right direction. I. you know, I am so. adamant about this. One of the most. powerful things that anyone can do, believe it or not, is to have someone.

each morning that they text good morning. to. I know this is going to sound. trivial, corny, and I'm happy to take. the heat on this one. Find a friend. And in particular, men. who lack friends completely because. there's a greater percentage of those, although it's certainly the case that. many young women and women are. lonely as well. Find someone who you can communicate. with each morning. Just a good morning. text. Seriously, this is one of the most. powerful things you can do, to check in.

with another member of your species each. morning. You don't have to have. conversation, you don't have to talk. about what you're going to do each day. Knowing that someone else out there in. the world cares about us each morning. when we wake up makes us feel incredibly. part of the tribe. I do this with, let's see, one, two, two friends religiously, one. from time to time, and a few others kind. of kind fall in and out of the mix. It's. an extremely powerful thing to do.

You're part of a community. Can I ask. that? Are you Does it matter what you. say? Cuz in my group chats, we we tend. to tell each other to off and stuff. and we we roast each other. That's fine, too. Even better if it's. elaborated with, "How'd you sleep? What. are you doing today? What's your plan. for the day?" And you reach back. Is it. about showing concern and care for them. and having that reciprocated, or is it. just about the communication itself? Someone cares enough to think about you. first thing in the morning. You know, people are really isolated. We move away. from our families now. And by the way, these could be family members that.

you're communicating with. But. the idea that someone is thinking of us. first thing in the morning, even if it's. just like a operational thing, like, okay, here we go. Good morning. The idea that there's some regularity, some expectation and understanding of a. social connection that's reliable is. immensely powerful. You know, I we've heard a lot even from. the US Surgeon General about the. isolation crisis and the need for more. connection and certainly that. can and should be in the form of walks. with people, coffee, meals, etc. Yes, yes, and yes. But a great starting place.

that's very low bar is just a good. morning exchange, even by text. Phone. would be better each morning. I do this as an adult with two friends. Good morning. Good morning. If I don't. hear from either one of them by noon, I. start to worry a little bit, not because. they're in in any kind of trouble, but. it's just become such a routine part of. my day. It allows you to feel part of something. bigger than yourself. We are not meant. to live our lives in complete isolation,

in complete relationship only with our. goals. It has to be in relation to other people. and our goals. This is the importance of. going to the workplace. This is the. importance of having a place where you. work. If you don't have a place of work, going to a cafe or a library, seeing. faces in the morning. Now, some people. don't want to see any faces in the. morning. They're not ready to quote. unquote face the day. That's fine. But. at some point, seeing other people for. some period of time, even just briefly. on the street, saying hello, vitally. important. You know, we evolved we we.

are a primate species. We are old world. primates. We evolved to look other. people in the eye and for them to look. back at us, even if just to say, "Hi.". as they walk their dog. Now, some people. don't have anyone. It's really sad, but. some people don't have anyone to even. exchange this basic text with. In that case, I highly recommend that. you adopt an animal. A dog can. accomplish a tremendous amount, not. everything, but a tremendous amount in. terms of making us feel connected. We. are then a caretaker, they're taking. care of us. There's empathy there. There's all sorts of wonderful things.

If you can't have that, you can get a. fish. Seriously, some being, a a. some living being that we're responsible. for and that relies on us, and to some extent that we rely on as. well, is so crucial. We have huge amounts of. neural real estate devoted to this, humans especially. You know, most of the. brain is designed for visual processing, for movement, and then you start to look. at okay, like what's kind of the third. element? Well, it's language and social. connection. So,

find someone that you can exchange a. morning text with on a consistent basis, ideally every day. Does this come. naturally to you? Because you don't. strike me as an individual that this. comes naturally to. I'm not also. Okay, you mean I'm I'm a bit of a a loner, is. that the sense you get? I'm a loner. I I would be perfectly okay. There was a. year of my life where I feel like I. didn't interact with anyone when I was. building my first business in a small. room in a rough area of the UK, but I'm. someone who. if left to my own devices, probably. wouldn't interact with anybody.

And but I you strike me as the same. I. have my dog as well, but Yeah, a bit. I. don't have a dog right now. I'm getting. another one soon. I must say I can spend. long periods of time alone, but I crave. social connection and more so as I get. older. You know, I think um. most of the challenges in my life have. been around trying to resolve. the need to get work done that I'm. really passionate about. and the. let's just call it what it is, the. isolation required for that, the. discipline, the organization that's. required for that,

and the desire to to be socially. connected. Now, I've been very fortunate. to have a lot of really close friends. and I'm in communication with them on a. regular basis and I've been. closer to some than others. There's some. that I'm really close with, I talk to. all the time every day. I'm close with. my sister. I talk to my parents a fair amount, you. know, more than some, less than others, depends on the family structure. Um. and a few friends are just absolutely. central to my life and well-being. I. think when you have a romantic partner.

that you live with or that you're in. communication with, then becomes more frequent, but even. there, you know, I think it's important. to still maintain healthy friendships. And of course, people differ on this. spectrum. I don't think you need a lot. of friends. I think you need one really. reliable good friend or more, depending. on, you know, what your needs are. And I. think that. as I've gotten older, I realized that, you know, that the best things in life, success in particular, but also hard. times are best shared with other people. And the best way to make friends, really, is.

twofold. You know, a friend of mine once. said this, he said, you know, people. with interests are interesting. So, people So, if you're interested in. things, you know, going and interacting. with those things, even if they're. within books, etc., have interests, genuine interest, don't just learn. things for learning's sake, but just. have interests. And then the other. is that. if you are not the sort of person for. whom like friendships are just pouring. over you and people want your time, then. be of service.

You know, this notion of be the person. who sends the good morning text. Now, if. somebody never reciprocates, well then. okay, maybe you look elsewhere and and. send your your energy elsewhere. But be. the person who checks up on somebody, on. a family member or friend on a regular. basis. Be the person of service and um. you can volunteer, you can help people. in any number of ways. I mean, the great thing about a dog or. just taking walks is that you. you'll find if you do it continually in. the same neighborhood over and over, you. start to run into the same people and it.

becomes a hello, maybe they become a. friend, maybe it's just the familiarity, maybe it's the barista that you say. hello to each morning. You know, these. things are really what. I think we evolved I In fact, I know we. evolved to do and they trigger. activation of these circuits that are so. fundamental to our sense of of. well-being and safety. It It largely has. to do with our ability to predict the. future. I mean, right now we're in a. political landscape and a. you know, just a world landscape that's. so uncertain and so divisive, you know, just having some things that are just. good.

let's just call it what it is, goodness, just good-natured humans. being good-natured, you know, being kind. to one another and not in any kind of a. manipulative way, just really being kind. to one another. And then. upon that, one can layer, you know, a. couple extra hours of work where you're. highly motivated then getting back out. Take your. you know, your lunch outside and maybe. you don't see anybody. You know, people. who are isolated probably have to do. more work to interact with other people, but there are ways to do this. And.

you know, for people that struggle with. addictions like the pornography. addictions or alcohol, drug addictions. and other like behavioral addictions, I mean, there are zero cost programs. essentially in every city around the. world that people can access some of the. social connection and support for those. that again are completely zero cost. For people that um are interested in. exercise, you know, there's usually like. running groups. There's usually a. threshold one has to get over. I'm not. one to join a running group or work out. with other people. This is not my kind. of thing, but I do require, I've found,

um I need healthy social connection. When did you figure that out? Because. there was a an age where I can tell. exactly when I figured it out, so I know. there must be one for you where you kind. of figure it out. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a big pack of. boys at the end of my street growing up. Uh we all played together. Then. skateboarding in that world, I was just. really surrounded by people all the. time. When I got serious about school. and research, there were a lot of days. and nights I was alone. And at that.

time, I'd listen to books or I'd listen. to music. Um I still had friends, but I. was less social. And I think it wasn't. really until my mid-30s that it that I. started to realize like, whoa, like. okay, even though, you know, I had a. girlfriend, I was I was lonely and I was. starting to accumulate some unhealthy. patterns of behavior where I was just. seeking connection in unhealthy ways. And as I've built up my friendship. group, and that also of course requires. being a good friend. And I suppose there. are a few people out there that probably. say that I'm an unreliable friend, but I.

think if you were to pull my. 10 or 15 closest friends, they'll tell you I'm the guy that checks. in. Now, I've probably upset a few. people cuz I don't check in on. everybody, but it's true. I've got a. list Actually have a list, it's not in. this notebook, of about 10 or 15 people. It's a list of 30 people total that. those are my core people and I make it a. point. It's not because I'm regimented. or protocoling any of this. I make it a. point to check in on that person. I. haven't called that person in a little. while. But then there's that core group. of people that I make sure to check in. with every day, at least every week,

and that like without whom like I don't. really want to live. It's not that I. want to die, but life's just so much. better with those people in my life. Yeah, how does someone make that list? That 15 names you have? It's all feel. It's the people that I. accept and that accept me. You know, my. patterns of communication are a little. weird. It's gotten me into trouble in. life for sure. I'll be, you know, a good. friend of mine once said, you know, that. I'm like the little um orbiting uh. flying robot in Star Wars. I'm like.

there and then I'm gone. And people that know me, and by the way, he's a very close friend, know that I'm. gone, but I but I'm back. And so, I tend to give things my full. attention. I'm like 10 out of 10. attention and then I need my space to. reset. And that hasn't always. been healthy, but I've done my best to. try and get better at it over time. And. people that make that list are either. the same way, a few a few of them are. definitely the same way where I'm like, hey, I haven't heard from them in a.

while, but then when I sit down with. them or we have a phone call, it's like. they're really there. In fact, some of. these people will say, let's talk. tomorrow, let's talk tomorrow and it. never happens. And I know they're not flaky. I know. that they're doing other things. And. then when they're ready and we get on a. call, man, it's the richest interaction I've. ever had. It's so deep and so rich. I'm. like, I get so much out of a 10-minute. conversation. It's like, yes, or an. hour-long conversation. And then there. are friends that I'll hang out with for. a week, I'll go visit, um go for a hike. with,

but it's the richness of the interaction. that matters for me. Not the frequency. Not the frequency. That's right. And. then for me, I think people who consider. me a good friend or people who. understand. the intensity that I bring to things and. you know, the love and care that I. really have for them and that if they. need me, I'm there. Like I will tell you. I've hit some hard times, some recently, and it was amazing. I had people. descending on my home to be with me. You. know, I'll tear up if I talk about it.

Some of them are names people are. familiar with in the in the podcast. space. And. I was like, oh my goodness, like I. like I've not had that. You know, I will get uh emotional. You know, they came to my home and they. sat with me. and. yeah, they picked me up. and they reminded me who I am. And um. you know, I I've just such immense. gratitude for that.

Um you know, I'm a 49-year-old man. Um. I've done some things correctly. I've. done some things I regret. Um. I've strived to be the best person I. could be at the time, doing the best I. had with what I had. And they know that. And I know they know. that, not just because they told me, but. like you can feel it. And I've been blessed enough not just to. know these people, but also. that. when they've been in need that I've had. the opportunity to go to them.

You know, and I had to do that several. times recently. Things that had nothing. to do with me. You just. sometimes people will outright ask for. help. Sometimes they'll say they're in danger. Sometimes you just sense it. And it's. like, that's it. I'm driving, you know, um getting in the car. And um. and I've learned the best thing, the way. you build that kind of friendship and. network. is by showing up when that. hard stuff isn't happening. And you try and give your full.

attention. And sometimes that requires putting away. the phone and sometimes it means you're. both on your phones and you're just. hanging out and you're watching a game. or you know, it it doesn't mean being. what forcing yourself to be somebody. you're not, but it means paying. attention. And um. yeah, and giving giving a significant. portion of ourselves to try and. really like be there for people. Because. ultimately I think. that's what we want in social. interactions. You know, we want listening, we want shared. experience, we want all that stuff.

And that stuff's great, but ultimately. it's like. when you ask who makes the list, it's. like. I'm thinking of these people now, it's. like I feel like they're always with me. You know, and um. I wouldn't trade any amount of money, any amount of anything for that. And I think that. like a really good life. includes some of that. So, you know, forgive me for being. emotional um or don't. It doesn't really. matter to me. I just feel.

like uh. that's the real stuff that makes life. really worth living. And it has nothing. to do, you know, uh with dopamine or uh maybe it does or. it doesn't matter what the mechanisms. are. What matters is that we all have that. capacity and it starts by just showing. up on a regular basis, showing somebody. that you can. care about them enough to think about. them each morning. and and send them a quick good morning. text. That's it. And if they don't.

reply, okay. And if they do, okay. And once the reciprocation starts and. you start to feel kind of crewed up just. a little bit. Like, oh wow, like there's something I. can rely on in this crazy, dizzying, sometimes exhausting. really hard life. And then when the good stuff happens, you got that many more people to. celebrate with and that much more. intensely. So, yeah. Appreciate you letting me share that.

It's um. it's something that uh. at this stage of life, I'm like, okay. Like. I know a few things, there's a lot I. still have to learn, but. that one's for sure. Yeah, friendship is. it's vital. You went through a bit of a bit of a. storm this year to say the least and. I've been through many a storm in my. life. I've been through many a media. storm when the media came for me and. wrote things about me and I've And I.

don't think anyone that's not been. through that before understands how it. feels because for me when it happens to. me, there's this real sense of injustice. and there's this desire for me to want. to jump out and correct things and. scream and shout and correct the world, but I also know that I can't. And I when. I saw. again, I didn't see anything, but I'm. from afar looking at, you know, social. media, when I saw you going through a. similar thing my two things happened. The thing one was I wanted to understand. the protocols of a man who writes about. protocols, has a book coming out about. protocols. I wanted to understand what.

he does in that situation and if he's. any more immune than I am because I'm. certainly fragile in that regard. But. then also I saw this other wonderful. thing which I think you've expressed. there is I saw. your friends show up. I I saw them speak out. about your character and who you. actually are. And I saw them literally. show up at your location. I saw someone. like Lex Friedman show up for you. Yeah, showed up at my home. several times. He. He was just there like literally one day. I just like look up and Lex is in the.

room. And see how I like a dream, right? Like. like like Lex Friedman with the suit and. the whole thing and um. he was just there to just be there, you. know. Um. yeah, that was a. challenge. Um you know, as you pointed. out the hardest thing about that and I. I realize like most people who aren't. public facing. um won't experience this, but I think. everybody experiences something similar. at some point in their life, especially. now with social media. where things that are being said about.

you are just fundamentally not true. Fundamentally not true. And they're being cast in a way in a. context that is just. wrong. And you want to say, "No, that's not how. it was." Or the context is completely. wrong or there's a completely other side. of the story that you'd love to tell. But either. because of how that will land and how. people misperceive or contort that.

or simply because. you have the etiquette. and the respect to not do that because. there are sometimes many different. parties involved. Um. you refrain. And in our case, I decided to just. mainly focus on the work at hand. Although I've talked a bit about this on. Jocko Willink's podcast. I'll be talking about it here. The pain comes from being. potentially misunderstood.

And also from the understanding that we. didn't always necessarily do everything. right. In fact, we may have made some. mistakes. And the understanding that. the public forum is not the place to. work out the details of that. That's not. how healing comes. Despite what people. might believe, that is not how healing. comes. And I don't care if it's a. high school situation or a podcaster or. a celebrity or a politician, that is. just not the way that humans. effectively settle their differences. There are consequences, but it's not how.

things really get settled. And I think. we have proof of that given the last few. years. So, in that case. and I'm not trying to be diplomatic or, you know, kind of um slalom through. this. I think what I'm trying to do is. make it effective and hopefully useful. for everybody. What do you do when. you're hearing and seeing things about. you or others that you affiliate with. that you just fundamentally disagree. with? Well, you have three options. You can. counter the narrative. You can say nothing. Right? Or you can.

agree. And herein I think lies the. challenge in being an adult, a real. adult in the realest sense of the word. A real adult knows when to say, "You know what? Some of the stuff they're saying, yeah. Wish I'd chosen differently.". But a real adult also knows to say, "But. some of the stuff they're saying, no. That is not what happened, that's not. the context and this is categorically. false." Now, those things often are.

interdigitated, okay? Now, at the. extremes they're not interdigitated, but. oftentimes they're interdigitated. And what people have to realize is that. online in comments, in certain forms of. media. it's just highly skewed. You're getting. just one perspective. In the context of. science, we'd say this is like. cherry-picking data, looking at one. particular portion of the graph or. throwing out a bunch of experiments. because the data weren't what you. wanted, which in science is like. terrible. Only second in terms of terrible to.

actually making up data, right? Okay? So, I think the challenge is. to the. to So, I know that the challenge in. those circumstances is to do what in the. end I ended up doing, which was to sit. down. and realize that was the circumstance I. was in. And then to try and make a really good. decision about what to do. And that I do believe is best achieved. through having. really good friends, really good. co-workers and family members.

who can. be really clear optics for you when you. don't always have the clearest optics. Meaning they can. hear your ideas and you can spitball. what might happen in case A, B or C, but. it's not about being tactical. It's not. about being strategic. It's about. remaining true to yourself. And in my. case, I just felt that I didn't want to get. into the details. Um. and at the same time I acknowledge. there's always a learning in these.

things. You asked whether or not knowing. protocols can help. Well, certainly. sleep was important. I managed to sleep. There were some days I slept less than. others. People had theories. He looks tired, this and that. Sometimes that was. related to earlier recordings that I. tended to just push too hard anyway. Um. sometimes it related to, you know, being. kind of troubled about the. circumstances. So, I think that. one can use physiological size, you can. use non-sleep deep rest and I certainly. relied on those tools and continue to.

Friendship and social support, getting. a. pool of opinion from people that you. really trust. You don't want to get too. many opinions. often. You want to get just enough and. just a variety of them that you can make. the best informed decision. I don't. really believe in. polling 100 people about a circumstance. and then you know, taking a vote, pros. and cons. That the mind doesn't work. that way. So, in the end, you know, I I voted my. conscience and I voted my heart um by.

continuing to just put out content so. people could learn about science-based. tools for mental health, physical health. and performance. I think as time goes. on, I may elaborate more on some of the. circumstances. But. I think in the end, you know, people. listen to my podcast because they're. interested in getting better sleep, in. exercise protocols and hearing from the. best scientists and clinicians. so that they can better themselves in. their own life. And people speculate all sorts of. things. It's also interesting to see how.

we presume so much, not just about. public facing people, but about other. people in the comment section. You know, for instance, on my Instagram page. I have rules. It's classroom rules. You. can call me names if you want. You can. say most things, but I sort of treat it. like a classroom. What would I tolerate. in the classroom? And if people start. attacking each other, you're going to get a warning and if you. keep going, I'm going to block you. Just. just because. first of all, it's my page, right? This. whole notion that you're not allowed to.

block people is crazy, right? It's your. webpage, it's your classroom. Yeah. You have every right. You can say. what you can do whatever you want. I. mean, where is the rule that says that. you won't tolerate. or that you need to tolerate whatever. You know, people swearing at each other. very different to me than people. swearing. So, people can swear, fine. Swear at each other? Well, then I'm. going to say, "Hey, hey, hey, like stop. this. Do it again, you're done." Least. here, go elsewhere. And. there's so much presumption. We think we. know these people on the internet. And. we really don't. Mhm. On the other hand,

there's certain people like Lex, like. you. I'm really delighted in this. conversation. Like Rick. I like to think. like me, like I am who I am. Now, you're. not seeing every dimension of my life, but frankly, you're not supposed to. And I think there's this inherent desire. to know everything about everybody Mhm. um that we see online and comment. sections and on Instagram. And And. frankly, it's inappropriate. I grew up. in an era where. that wasn't right. In fact, my my father. um once told me he Again, he's from. Argentina. And he said, "You know,

there's this funny thing in the United. States. You go into somebody's office. and they've got all these pictures of. their kids. facing outward." He said, "You go into. somebody's office. in certain parts of Europe or in South. America and the picture of their family. is facing them.". So, on my dad's desk in his office. when I was a kid, he had a picture of me. and my sister and my mom and it faced. him. Mhm. Because those are for him. He. wasn't like, "Here are my kids. Here's. my Here's like my life." And I I love. that. That's And that's kind of how I. was raised. You know, you you keep. certain things inward and certain things.

are outward. So, I don't know. I I. That's the model I was raised with and I. rather like that. This notion that we. have to share every aspect of ourselves. on social media is crazy and I think. it's actually detrimental. If I was if I was a fly on the wall when. you were going through that what would I. have seen? And I what I cuz I'm what I'm. trying to The reason I'm asking this. question is super clear because if you. were a fly on the wall when I was going. through some of my hardest times you. would have seen someone that was really. struggling. Okay, so I'll say this.

That was definitely not my hardest time. Um hardest times for me were. the door's locked. I'm 14. I'm like behind locked doors. Mhm. I don't know if I'm going to get. out, when I'm going to get out. You know, I. called the one person I knew would pick. up, guy named Steve Rougie, Shrugie. He. was my team manager for Thunder and. Spitfire Wheels. I called him, I said, "Shrugie, what am what am I going to do? I'm locked up in this place." And his.

response was "Bro, you're the most. normal guy I know. What am I supposed to. do?" You know, I thought, "Oh my. goodness, what am I going to do?". Um. Yeah, that was scary. That was like, "What do I do? I'm 14. I have no agency. I I don't I don't mean like marketing. agency. I had no ability to like no. money, no anything." Now, it worked out. Other hard times, that time I talked. about July 4th after that fight, "What. am I going to do with my life? I'm a. complete loser." Other times. you know, I've had this weird karma with.

mentors. I've had three amazing. scientific mentors. And the relationship. between mentors and science. mentor and students in science used to. be much closer. You'd get really close. My undergraduate advisor was an amazing. person. My graduate advisor was like a. mother to me and was a truly amazing. individual. And my post-doc advisor, also incredible and I was incredibly. close with all of them. And it was. suicide, cancer and dead at 50, cancer. and dead early 60s. Like three people I was super close. with. And when Ben, the third guy, died,

I thought, "Well, there's only one. common denominator. That's me." I. thought I was cursed. Really? Yeah. I'm like, "I work for you, you die.". You know, and I was like. "Shit, like what is going on here?" But. then I. did what I only. know how to do, which is you transmute. the. pain into useful things. And I started. thinking, "Okay, how do I want to spend. the rest of my life? I want to be of. service. I want to take what I know in. science. I want to teach people things. that help them." And I didn't know. exactly how I was going to do that, but. it birthed the podcast.

I also had three dead mentors. I was a. scientific orphan. In science, there's. also a lot of trying to live up to the. reputation that they expect of you. Well, mine are all dead. So, some people. say, "What do your colleagues think of. the podcast?" I would say about a third. of them like it. They think it's cool. And they say that to me. About a third. probably think it's great that people. pay attention to science, but are like, "Some of it is more health-oriented.". And the third probably hate it for. whatever reason. Either jealousy or they. don't like the way I present things. And. I'm good with all of that cuz guess. what? My advisors are dead. I'm a.

grown-up. You do you, I'll do me. We're. all good. And frankly. we'll see how it all works out. Meaning. they're the ones who have to live with. themselves. I'm the one who has to live. with me. So, like I'm not. responsible for other people's feelings. and they're not responsible for me. So, cool. So, it's symbiotic. What I eventually discovered was. huh, you can reach 40 and have a great. career. I was tenured at Stanford and a. bunch of things, but wow, like certain. aspects of my life were still.

challenging. I had you know, those three. deaths plus you know, um this was some. years ago, unrelated to the recent. events. I you know, I had a really. important relationship end. Just like end after a lot of years of. really slogging it out and trying to. make it work and you know, failure is. not something I'm used to. In fact, a. friend of this woman um I was at a at a. retreat and we were talking about it and. I was really distraught about the end of. the relationship. And she said, "You're. not used to failing, are you?". And I. almost said like, "Yeah." And I said,

"You're right. You're right. I've I've. been successful in career and and a. relation a relationship that I we were. both really invested in and we just. didn't have the skills. I made my. mistakes, she made hers, but we really. really fought hard. And it didn't work out. And I was like, "Wow, like okay, I had a failure. Like a. legitimate failure.". And you could say, "Well, was it really. a failure? You learned." But look, there. were elements of failure. All right? We. had invested a lot of years, a lot of. energy and there was a lot of love, but. Why Why does that make you emotional? I.

can see it in your face. It's Um well, this relates to a lot of these things. that I um and I I suppose I I feel. comfortable enough to open up about. this. I think that. you know, some people might have the perception. that I'm like extremely self-interested. I've had. things thrown at me like, "He's a. narcissist." Or what Or worse, you know. Like I have had one I've had many, but I. have one particular major challenge. that I still strive to overcome. And people can roll their eyes and they.

can say it's but I know this. to be absolutely true, which is that. I have a very hard time letting go. A very hard time letting go. If somebody. dies, like I can handle that. But. like loss and letting go of people I. care about. is really hard. And it's also coupled. with this kind of style that I have of. I'm like very present and then I need to. go take care of myself, right? Um in. healthy ways. So, that can be confusing to people. I.

realize that, but there's this thing. where. like the idea of things ending is super. hard. And as a consequence, I've stayed. in relationships. far too long. I mean, you know, I sometimes joke, but. it's not funny. My breakup protocol. sucks and it really needs work because. everyone close to me who knows me really. well and who I trust says. "You stay in relationships way too long. that were either fated to fail or that.

were clearly going to fail. At some. point, you just kept slogging away.". Now, sometimes I slogged away in the. wrong ways and they did, too. But somehow I've um. I've really struggled to move on from. things. And as a consequence, I've. stayed in things far too long that never. had a chance, that were really. unhealthy. And in particular, I've taken. on things that were just. far too difficult from the beginning. And so, that relationship was a. beautiful relationship. I'm fortunate. that I'm still friends with that person, although we have to keep a certain.

amount of distance just at healthy. boundaries. And. you know, I get emotional because like. damn it, like we fought so hard. Like so. hard. And it was all out of love. But I think it I know that it failed. because. we just didn't have the skills. The. timing wasn't right. And I'm certainly not talking about this. most recent relationship. You know, this. year's hard stuff. This was some years. back. But like we fought so hard. And.

like I would have done anything. And she would have done anything to make. it work. And I'm just like I'm not a. quitter. I'm far from perfect, believe me, but. I'm not a quitter. And as a consequence, I think after that. it for a while, it just really changed. the way that I interacted with things. I. I just didn't quite recover. And one. could argue that the emotion that's. coming up for me now means that I didn't. recover. But I know I just. I just.

refuse to call time of death. I just refuse to call time of death even. when it's long since dead. And that's a. mistake and it's something I'm really. working on now because it hurt me. It. it's not good for other people. And it dovetails with a bunch of other. unhealthy ways of being. Um but what I know for sure is that. it's not selfishness. It's not that I'm. trying to avoid pain for myself. It's. related to my failure to be able to.

just. tolerate pain in other people and myself. simultaneously. There's something about. empathy gone wrong in those. circumstances. Is that linked to your. childhood? Parents Parents' separation. and them. Yeah, so people I pay a lot of money to. tell me that it no doubt does. But. what's weird is I never lament the. separation of my parents. I don't sit. back and go, "Oh, I wish they had stayed. together." They were both wonderful. people. They both have wonderful. partners. Like I've had a magnificent. life. I've had a great life. Like.

everything I've sought to do has. happened. And there's still things I. want. But I think that um. I was talking to Martha Beck about this. recently. There's this feeling with a. dog. where I love the dog. and they love you back. Particularly my. dog Costello, right? I loved him and he. loves me back. And so it's like empathy, but then you it's returned. It's like a. perfect circle. It's like the energy is. like I the more I love, the more love I. feel. The more love And I think with. people it's not like that, right? You. know, people are going to disappoint us, etc. But.

they can also delight us. But I think that there's been this. problem where my empathy goes too far. And I'm sure as I'm saying this people. are like, "Oh god, he's trying to mask. this in empathy." No, I can. wholeheartedly say didn't always lead to. the best choices and I own those. choices. But meaning I'll take. responsibility for my part. I won't take. responsibility for other people's part, right? It's always a two-way street. But. when we. have a sense of empathy and that.

other person isn't right for us and we. continue to try and. like feed the relationship. it's not about trying to avoid getting. them upset, but somehow we get into. these unhealthy dynamics and then you. know, it can really bring out. the worst, but some really like. unhealthy parts of people. You know, I. think the probably the hardest thing in. life is. is romantic relationships. Some people. might say it's work, but I think it's. the hardest thing in life. And people. say, "Well, when it's right, it's easy.".

I don't know. I think it depends on how. complicated a person you are. You know? Um. I think it depends on how complicated a. person you are and the extent to which. the other person is willing to do the. work. I've really seen this. I've also. had wonderful relationships. whereby. we're each willing to do the work on. self-care. and communication. You know, Paul Conty. said this not on my podcast, but I think. he was telling Whitney Cummings on a. podcast, you know, if you were to list. out the 100 most important things in. romantic relationship, you would just.

say self-care and communication 50. times. And I think that's absolutely true. because we need safety. We need. acceptance. Yes, those are foundational, non-negotiables, necessary, but not. sufficient. But I think. we need. communication and self-care and. those are hard. And you know, I'm still. learning. and trying to build those skills. I. absolutely want a family, so this is. super important to me. Um and I'm. putting a ton of work and effort into. it. So. I didn't realize we were going to go.

into this territory, but I will say for. people who are struggling with. relationships just know that you know, you can have amazing friendships and. still struggle with romantic. relationships or vice versa. Like again, like. friendships and I have male friends and. female friends. Mostly male friends, but. a few female friends. um that I'm very close with like. it's just. been amazing. I have great relationship. with my sister. I think I have a very. good relationship with my parents, with. my uncles and aunts. Like like. with my co-workers, my ability to pick.

business partners and co-workers just I. only hit bull's-eyes. Like I love my. team and we get along great and little. things get worked out quickly and. um but I think everyone has one or two. areas of life where it's a bit harder. and. just trying to learn the skills and I'm. working on it like. You and me both though, right? I I it. didn't come naturally to me. separated, I was willing them to because. I was They took They were just They hate. Hate's a strong word. It appeared that. they hated each other. For you know, watching my mother scream.

at my my father for 7 hours a day every. My mother's Nigerian, my dad's English. Was It was a traumatic experience and. the thing it left me with is this clear. notion which I left the household with. at 18. It was that a relationship is. prison. And I was I was so hardwired into me. because I thought my father was in. prison. So every time someone was. interested in me growing up, I would. self-reject I would reject them. So I'd. pursue them and then when they turned to. me and said, "Okay, let's be in a. relationship." I would. persuade them out of it. I would tell. them why this was a terrible idea. because I was getting the feeling that I.

vicariously learned through my father. I. was like, "I'm about to basically lock. myself in a prison where this person's. going to screw going to be able to. control me and my freedom." So I. rejected relationships up until about 27. years old. So you know, and then even that. relationship wasn't a straight line. because 2 years in she turns around and. says she doesn't like having sex with. me. Turns out she's got her own traumas. around sex. We have a year where she's. on the other side of the planet. I. didn't have the tools as you say to. understand what how to navigate such a. conversation. So for me I'm emasculated. I'm going, "Maybe there's something wrong with me.".

She doesn't want sex with me, dump her. And then but she was the right person. And what I the the TLDR of that story is. a year later I end up flying to the. other side of the world apologizing to. this person for. my lack of tools, my lack of. communication skills because it was the. right person at the wrong time. And we did the work. And that was long and it was hard and. it's still hard, but it's in an amazing. place at the moment. Oh, you're back together? Yeah, we live. together. She's flown from back from.

Bali 2 years ago. We live together. The. best the right person for me, but it's. hard work. Good for you. You like hard. work. I It's a wonderful story. I mean, it's a happy story regardless of. ultimately how it turns out because one. can sense like the real. uh. central chord of love there and um. and the the desire to make it work. I. mean, it's it's so interesting this. notion of make it work. You know, we. Again, just as being a functional adult. means saying, "Yep, you're right about.

this, but no.". Yeah. I'm going to stand my ground. In. relationships people say relationships. take work. Of course they do. And then. the question is how much work relative. to how much ease and it's highly. individual and there's no handbook for. this. There's no handbook for it and and so. And the reward on offer cuz I was. convinced that she was the most amazing. person I'd ever met. It just so happened. that she turns around to me one day and. says she doesn't like having sex with. me. Yeah, that's rough. That's rough, right? Especially for a young You have no. concept of what that might be. You think.

maybe you're bad in bed or something. But as she did the work on herself and I. did the work on myself, she unlocked a. bunch of traumas around sex and how. she'd been treated with sex as she grew. up, which she she resolved and she's. been very public about this. This why I. can share it. And I did a bunch of work. on myself and how to deal with how I. communicate when someone says brings me. such a thing. And after a year of her. working on that and a year of me working. on myself, we found ourselves in a place. where it turns out she loves sex now. She's arguably more sexual than I am in. many respects. Completely different.

individual, but it just require and I I. have to give the ending there cuz people. are going to be wondering. But it required a lot of work on me and. myself and where I've come from in the. situation of my my family and her and. the experience she's been through. And. we found ourselves together now in a. great place. And that still requires work. But in a great place. So you know, everyone's everyone's struggling with. some You know, my family's not. great. We we're not that close. I'm not. that close to certain. members of my family. I've struggled. with romantic relationships, made all.

the mistakes. I struggle with with. platonic relationships with my friends. I'm not the guy that's able to check in. I like being alone. You know, it is what it is. We're all. you know, uniquely challenged in some. way. So I've got a great amount of. empathy for what you shared and I I. really appreciate you for sharing it cuz. there's so many people that can relate. in various ways. I'm one of them. Um and. I think it's important cuz we don't talk. about it enough. Well, thank you for sharing your. experience and for giving me the. opportunity to share a bit. Um. you know, the conversation started.

around you know, hard circumstances and. you know, it's about taking stock of. where we trust ourselves um. to make the right decisions, where we. need work and. yeah, relationships are hard, but I do. think that well, certainly now I'm. feeling um more ease, you know, more. seamlessness with them. Certainly with. friendships as I mentioned, you know, we. all have these areas of proficiency. where we are. you know. where we find that things are kind of.

easier or even easy for us. They just. kind of happen with direct relationship. between effort and outcome, right? And. then these other areas where we feel. like we're rolling a boulder uphill. It keeps coming back and crushing us and. we keep doing it. And I think that. you know, there's no simple or universal. answer. But you know. I think. the rewards that come from a. relationship where there's been a lot of. hard work and things get resolved even. in one little domain are so tremendous.

You know, I think that's really um. related to this sense that like. when things end it's just so it feels so. devastating. I I really believe that. things can be talked through. I really. do. I think that um. you know, resent and anger. um they don't serve anyone. They really. don't. And people are probably hearing. this and saying, "Well, that's a. self-serving narrative." But really I. I'm talking about it in in myself, too. I don't I don't carry any resent and any.

any anger. You know, I sometimes wish. people had made different choices, but. ultimately like we can't control what. anyone else is going to do or say or. think and that's terrifying, right? People can really hurt us, right? They. can really hurt us. And we would love to create a world in. which we're completely safe, but I think. that. a lot of the work I've been doing lately. is really around. um you know, kind of like touching back. into maybe a. younger version of myself that um wasn't. so walled up. Wasn't um.

so. focused on what's going to happen in two. or three iterations of something. Just. really being as present as possible. Really focusing as it's probably become. clear today a few times on like the. amazing gifts that I have in my life. right now. that pursuing goals is great and wanting. things is great. Certainly, there are. things I want and want to build, mostly. in the domain of relationships and. family, but. but also just like really savoring like. having one's health or having. um the opportunity to sit down and have.

a conversation like this. Like Like what. a What an extraordinary life. we each have if we really pay attention. to some of these gifts. I used to think. that if we paid attention to those gifts. and focused too much on gratitude that. it would make us complacent. But all the. data, of course, and my own experience. as I do this more and more really. emphasize how all it does is give us. more energy, more anticipation of. what's possible and the great things to. come. And you know, it can all start to. sound a little cliché like just be happy.

with what you got. There. There's no just in that statement. I'm. saying be happy with the things you've. got. And from that state, new things emerge. More energy comes and you can start to. really navigate forward, not just sit. complacently and like stop there. Um I think it's our essence as. biological beings and psychological. beings and. if you will, spiritual beings, if that's. your your leaning too, to want um to. want more. I think that's normal, but we. have to savor what we have also. And I.

think once we savor what we have, we. have more energy to want more and and. that's That's the perfect circle that. just is I guess it's more of an upward. spiral. And here I'm sounding very. abstract, but I could easily and, you. know, exhaustively put everyone to sleep. with long mechanistic descriptions of. how research our motivation or dopamine. or um any number of different neural. systems or physiological systems support. all of that. I think the most important. thing is that people are honest with. themselves about what they can.

reasonably work on right now, and to be. you know, gentle with themselves enough to like. coax themselves forward, but. occasionally scruff yourself and be. like, "It's time. You know, it's time.". And um I don't know, it's certainly been. life thus far. I'm still navigating, you. know, and. um. I certainly don't have all the answers, but as I learn and I try and share what. I do learn. What has helped you on that. journey? That journey to really kind of. Cuz the way I heard it is. you're someone that's orientated towards.

pursuing your goals and you're very very. driven in that regard, but you're you're. kind of having to kind of Maybe this is. not the right word, but kind of unlearn. a natural disposition and shift more. towards another state. You talked about. therapy there. You're You um What has. helped? Well, I think you know, I was. forced into therapy as a way to get out. of lockup. I had to To stay in high. school, I had to go routinely, and so I. did. Um I think it can be very helpful. provided there's good rapport, support,

and the person offers insight that lends. itself to action, right? It's not just. about finding someone to support and. listen. Someone has to inspire action. that makes you a better person, okay? That And that's really important. So. we're not just talking about. playing with your problems, you know, a. story fondling as it's sometimes called. I think one has to understand that. there's a relationship between. physiology and emotion. So if I'm waking. up and I don't feel well cuz I didn't. sleep enough, yeah, I'll do NSDR, get. some sunlight, and I'll go exercise, and. generally I feel better. But I also have.

learned to not mask real feelings. by simply trying to shift my physiology. Just as people are starting to learn, "Hey, yes, there are useful medications. for dealing with mental health issues, but you still have to do the work. You. still have to focus on building career, building relationships, doing the work.". I think one of the most useful things. that I've learned. Again, I'm a big fan of Martha Beck. She's triple degreed from Harvard, but. she also has this. mystical, spiritual side that it really. brings together a lot. I asked her recently, I said, "You know,

what do you do when the thinking mind is. like trying to analyze something, predict things, and then you also have. all this feeling? Which one do you rely. on?" She says, "Ah, the the way to do this is you imagine. you have your feelings in one hand. and your thoughts in the other, and. they're kind of like in this battle. It's like, "Okay, what's going to happen. next? What are they going to do this? How do they You go back and forth.". Typically, people are texting and. calling and looking and drinking and. doing whatever it is to try and resolve. this battle. The solution is to see that battle. and to sit back into a this third. position that.

she calls the compassionate observer. Where you're like, "Okay, this is. both happening. These are both. happening." And to sit in this third. position where you realize trying to. reconcile just with your thoughts or. just with your emotions or settle down. your emotions or settle down your. thoughts is futile. To get in this third. position where the acceptance of that. suffering. shows up, and you're able to just like. sit with the suffering. And the moment. she said, "Sit with the suffering," I. was like, "No!" You know, I don't want. that answer, but then she explained,

"From that place of suffering, you start to drop into what are the. thoughts that make you feel a little bit. looser and more relaxed in your body? What are the thoughts that make you feel. kind of more constricted?" And you just. start to use that as a bit of a. navigator. And. start asking questions like, "You know, do I want to do this thing? Like do I. want to drink this coffee or not? Am I. just doing it compulsively? Do I want to. exercise?" And it sounds very abstract, extremely woo, but the brilliance of. what she does and the brilliance of that.

scenario is that it brings together all. the neuroscience that we know. We have a. thinking, analytic part of the brain. that does what I call DPOs, duration, path, outcome analysis. We also have. emotional states of the brain, the. limbic system, it's sometimes called, but it's a bunch of other areas, too. And it doesn't know the clock or the. calendar, as Paul Conti, brilliant. psychiatrist, says. Feelings don't know that it's. today in July 2024. It thinks you're 8 years old. That The. limbic system, your emotions, they don't. know the clock or the calendar. It. doesn't know how old you are. It just.

knows you and circumstances and feeling. So being able to step back from all of. that is really what. being a healthy human being is about. And then realizing you're suffering. Like in that battle, you're suffering. And when you relax that a little bit and. you go, "Okay, I'm not going to force myself to. suffer as much. Now what feels right? What feels right right now for like the. next 5 minutes?" Well, then you can. navigate the next 5 minutes. Maybe it's. take a nap, maybe it's have a meal, maybe it's do a little bit of work,

maybe it's you don't know, and you just. sit there. But then 5 minutes later, you're able to pick the next best choice. and the next best choice, and pretty. soon you're off and on your way. Because. so often we get avalanched by our. feelings or our thoughts or we can't. sleep, and it's just like, And people are losing their minds and. they're online looking for a solution, and they use distraction, alcohol, mindless scrolling. By the way, I love. social media. I teach on social media. and I learn on social media from your. podcast and Joe's podcast and Lex's. podcast and Tim's pod and on and on. So.

I'm not demonizing it, but mindless. consumption, inebriation, numbing ourselves, or forcing ourselves to do things that. are not in service to our well-being, none of that is good. What's good is. being able to sit with it. And in doing. that, I've started to realize that you. get back to what she calls, and again, the language sounds woo, but who cares? She's the one with three degrees from. Harvard, so call her whatever you want. You know, is the what she calls essential self,

which I think refers to our own unique. wiring. What really feels right to us. Trusting in our own goodness, trusting. that. if we just navigate forward from that. compassionate observer place, that we are going to be In some cases, we need to be fierce, we need to be a. warrior, in other cases, we need to be. soft and compassionate, and then we can. be all of those things depending on what. the the situation calls for. And then we. can just like sit back and move forward, and that. we're going to be okay. In fact, we're. going to be better than okay. And that.

when we bring that stance, that like. calm, energetic stance to things and. other people, we also have a ton to. give. We can be in so much service. This. is one of the reasons I think people. love Rick. I think about Rick a lot. Rick Rubin's a. close friend. And I'm very blessed. And it's not. because he's Rick Rubin, the famous. musician. In fact, I know zero minus one. about hip-hop. Oh, yeah, I just don't It. wasn't a genre I followed. I like some. of it, but. but one thing is that when Rick shows. up, he's just like there. He's super. present. He's not there to give you.

anything, but he gives. And he's not there to take anything. You. He's just there. And I think that's why people love him. I think that's why people love him. Yes, he's been super successful in all these. different domains. And when people try. and poke at Rick, that's something that. really pisses me off. You want to really. get me worked up? Try and pick on one of. my close friends. Like I That's a place. where I am. like, you know, come at me, attack me. all day, and you people do. But if you. try and attack people I know in their.

true goodness, Lex or Rick or any number. of my different friends, famous or not, like that's when I'm. going to you know, that's when a side of. me comes out that frankly I. I'm proud of. Like I'm going to hit you, and I'm going. to hit you hard. I'm going to be fair, but like you can't. do that because these are really good. people trying to do the best they can in. the world. And this is true. me protecting my sister, you know? I'll. also be the first if a friend is out of. line to say something, but the people.

I'm referring to here, they show up with. like all their goodness. Joe's the same way. And people talk. about Joe, and I'm like, "Mm-mm." People. have tried to get me to talk about. him. Reporters have called me to try and. set me up like a trap a snare trap to. say things about him. No chance. He's. done things. that I've seen that had nothing to do. with me in service to others that are. completely quiet, that no one will ever. hear about, that absolutely tell me that he is a.

huge-hearted person who cares about the. world and takes care of people close to. him and far away from him without the. expectation of anything in return. And. I'm not saying this so that he likes me. more. I'm saying this cuz it's true. And. I think that, you know, Martha Beck's another one or people that. like. they just want to give. And so when I. see people attacking people and I can. sense this about you, we're getting to. know one another here. Like the fact that you're trying to. attack someone whose. fundamental goal is to try and serve the.

world, build things to serve. Like. and there are a few things that get my. adrenaline going like that, but that's. not okay. It's not okay. And I think it's really important that. we stand up for people who are not known. either. We stand up for them and that we. say that's not okay. You you can't take. cheap shots like that. And so I think times are changing there. Times are changing, you know, the um. I don't have anything against. traditional media. I see the way they. capitalize on things. They'll put.

different names and URLs and trying. bring clicks and stuff. Look, they're. just trying to make an income. Um and I think some of them presumably. are good people just trying to do their. thing. What I love about podcasters, what I love about the early, you know, the skateboarders I knew from the. skateboard era, some of my still in. touch with now, um punk rockers, the people in creative. areas, artists and musicians and poets, it's like they didn't get into it. because they thought people would like. them or they'd make a lot of money.

And a lot of times they take ridicule. They got into it because it's who they. are. It's their essence. They're just. being them. And I think we can really tell. somebody's just being themselves. It's. like their real essence just brought. forward and they're taking. fire and they're taking shrapnel and. they're and they do it anyway. You know, I I'm I know he's very popular now, um even though he's dead, um but I've. always loved Jean-Michel Basquiat's. work. And if you watch that movie, I.

don't know if you've seen the movie. Basquiat, not the the documentary, but. amazing movie. It's got Dennis Hopper, uh Parker Posey, um David Bowie plays um. Andy Warhol. It's an amazing cast, Willem Dafoe. It's just an amazing cast. And there's this incredible scene. where Jean-Michel and Benicio Del Toro, who I believe was. playing Jean-Michel's friend, who was. Vincent Gallo. Jean-Michel says to him, he goes, "Hey Benny, how long do you. think it takes to get famous?". And the answer that Benicio Del Toro.

gives him is amazing. He talks about how. fame. ultimately just brings a lot of attack. And how that can really collapse the. artist. And it's it's a beautiful. 2-minute riff on YouTube that everyone. should go watch. And if anyone out there. thinks they want to be famous, I'll tell. you, you do not want to be famous. Famous takes away your freedom. People. say they want to be famous. I you. absolutely don't. What you want is you. want a friend. or friends that you love and that love.

you. You want to have enough resources. plus a bit more so that you feel safe. Right? Anyone that says you only need. $70,000 a year in order to be happy cuz. some study said that, You need enough money so that. you feel safe about your present and. your future. That number differs for. different people. Okay? So, that's a. study. I don't care what the data say. Like look at the real world. And usually. it's a rich person saying you only need. that amount of money, by the way. You need some sense of passion or.

connection to the world. And. you need a sense of freedom that you can. be you. And that you won't get attacked for it. And we know this throughout history. This has been proven over and over. again. So fame is Like fame. takes away your freedom. The rest of it, social connection, some. resources, a connection to some passionate. exploration, curiosity, even if it's. very private and no one ever sees it. Like those things are are really what. make life rich. It really really.

does. And I have fantasies about just. disappearing. Taking a small group off to some hidden. village and we do our thing, but but I. know myself too well. I'd want to. um I'd want to connect with the world. more. It's just in my nature to want to. do that. So, I suppose I'm kind of hosed. And I. suppose the world's kind of stuck with. me until they aren't. But no, I I I have those fantasies as. well and I I I arrive at the same. conclusion that I'd eventually do. something in the village which would. bring me back to society and then bring.

me back to probably sitting in this. chair. Well, and you know, I've thought. about getting some people together and. we should do this. We could get a. property, put a bunch of houses, put a. gym, a sauna, get up a podcast studio, but guess what? They'd call it a cult. They'd be like, they started a cult, right? They'd find something, be like, they started a cult. Because I think to. people that are not passionate creators, and again, I'm not just talking about. podcasters, but that aren't passionate. creators, they don't understand. Like they don't. understand that. certain people just need to create.

Yeah. And. God bless them because we need somebody. to write articles from a perspective. that they don't understand to get other. people to think things that aren't true. Because that's what they need to do. Like they serve an important role. Like. in the aquarium of life, on the coral. reef of life, you need the little like. horseshoe crabs working there. When you. say like, well, what's the purpose? It's. part of an ecosystem. It's somehow. indirectly serves the rest. Although. sometimes it's kind of hard to tell. And. as we head into this election, as as we. head into like really uncertain times, I. think we tend to go, "The media or the.

podcasters or the the" Look, everyone's. doing the best they can with what. they've got. Just some people are. working a little bit harder to be kind. and benevolent and giving. and acknowledging we're all human. And others are like pointing fingers. So. Of all the protocols you've shared, it seems like maybe the most important. is friendship. Send that morning text. Find somebody. that you can communicate with. that will communicate with you, that you. trust. You don't have to share a ton. I. don't want to give the impression that I.

sit there with my friends and like share. all the inner workings of my mind and. what's going on, you know? I mean, that's that's why I have this notebook. So I don't have to do that. It's like I. got stuff in here I never want anyone to. see. You know, but. yeah, find a friend. Like friendship is. huge. And and it's the start of all. great things. Right? It it's the reflection of all. great things inside of us. Right? It's. not the complete picture. Romantic. relationship for many, for most is. really important. Get a dog, get a fish,

get a plant, sure. But I think. friendship really is like the most. important thing that all of us can. really focus on right now. aside from. partnership and children because of. course children need us and. they need our our attention and our. support, but friendship is is super. powerful. And rather than talk about the isolation. crisis, the loneliness crisis, I'd. rather talk about some solutions. And I. think friendship, maybe even just a morning text back and.

forth. Good morning. Good morning. How'd. you sleep? Pretty good. Not well. Okay. Bye. Next day, it's there. The being able to. rely on that like clockwork, like the. sun rising and setting each day, you can. count on that. It's just brings a lot of peace. It'll. make you a better version of yourself. Do your friends know what. you mean to them? Having gone through those difficult. moments, did did you were you were you. able to articulate to them how much you. appreciated them for that? Mm. I'll get emotional again. I I don't.

I don't think they could know. You know, it's it's like. there's one friend in particular. Um. there's a guy who's actually very. prominent in the skateboarding. community. He he's quiet in that. community. I'll I'll say his name. because he's so humble, you know. He'll. never say it himself. His name is Jim. Thiebaud. And when I was 14 years old, Jim, who now runs a big company called. Deluxe, which is a bunch of companies. and he he's kind of the the he's kind of. the mayor of the whole sport. He's um. back then, I remember I was 14. This was.

after I got out of this place. And um he rolled up to me in Embarcadero. and he sat next to me. He just like sat. next to me. Gave me a coffee. and some stickers. And he was like, "What's up, man?" And he's probably. about 10 years older than I am. And we started talking. And he gave me. one of his books. Sorry, Jim. I'm going. to embarrass him. He had these poetry. books. Great book. I still have it. It's. called Loose Change. And he had another. one called Do the Distance. And he goes,

"You should write.". I'm like, "Okay." And I started writing. I started keeping a journal. And that. one interaction carried me through so. many hard times. Now, years later, I had. a really hard circumstance. Things were. going well in my life. I was making. progress on a certain front that I'd. been challenged with with for some time. And then one day just brack. Everything came crashing down. And like magic, Jim showed up. I'm not.

I'm not saying he got a call from the. universe. Somebody called him and he. showed up. And he just sat with me. Now, I'm an. adult at this point. He just like sat with me. And um. and I hear from him every morning, you. know? And I still text him every. morning. He texted me today. He's here. in LA today. We won't see each other. So, he's busy. I'm busy. We got work. I would love to see him, but he's busy. and I respect that he's busy and he. respects that I'm busy. It's like, wow, you know, 14 and then 40.

some years and he's there again. And I. like to think I've been there for him, too. You know? And. you know, when I was that kid, at some point he. knew, in some way he knew exactly what I. needed. I needed those books. I needed. something. And you know, even when I. tell him now about that, he goes, "Oh, no, that poetry is so bad." You know, he's embarrassed about that. And I'm. thinking, "No, man, you like saved my. life with that stuff." And I kept them. I still have them. And so I think he. must have like sensed that I was a.

really like feeling person and I was. really in a trench. And we've seen a lot. of our friends go dead or in jail and in. trouble. We've seen a lot of people do. extremely well. Jim's an amazing guy. because he's the one who calls the. decisions on a lot of things in the kind. of social milieu of skateboarding. He's. taken a lot of I don't want to get. into the details, but he's helped evolve. skateboarding in some ways that it was. very resistant to evolving. You can. largely credit the true diversity in. that sport. You know, people talk about.

diversity, but look at that sport. Look. at the number of different races. Look. at the fact that you've got straight. kids, gay kids, trans kids. You've got. room for the kids who have parents and. the parent involvement. You've got. kids that don't have have any parents. You've got people trying to help each. other get sober and stay sober. You've. got people like. Jim has taken so much. publicly on the chin maintaining. complete silence about his rationale.

except with one mission in mind, which. is keep the sport going in the. healthiest way possible that's most. inclusive for the most number of people. cuz he knows the importance of having a. place where kids that don't fit in in. other sports can come, but also the. importance of having it be an Olympic. sport, which skateboarders on, too. And so, this isn't about skateboarding. I want to make very clear. It's about Jim and the fact that he. understands his sense of purpose, his. sense of duty. He knew well enough that. even though he was a professional. skateboarder that he would better serve.

the community by doing something else, which is to be a leader. He leads. quietly. Like I think about him all the. time. So, do they know how much I. appreciate them? There's no way. I could. go on for hours about him, the things. he's done for me. Anyone that knows that. sport or knows Jim knows exactly what. I'm talking about. He'll never have a. podcast. He'll never go on a podcast. Maybe he'll. bless us with coming on my podcast. But. some people like him like I hope they. but. people like him in my life and I hope.

they know. But there's no card you can. send that can capture all that. I think. it's just like checking in on on him. every morning and just, you know, giving. him a big hug when I see him, you know, and um I saw a tweet recently. It was. like normalizing or no, it was the dude. with sign guy who was super funny. I. think it said normalizing telling your. friends you love them. I don't think that was for women. Hopefully they're doing that, too. I. think it's for men. Like I'm not shy. about that. I tell my friends, I love. you. I've also. had the experience of not doing that and.

then I never see that friend again. So, I'm not trying to be overly sentimental, right? It's really about just like. like living your life with as much heart. forward as is safe and appropriate, right? So, anyway, um that's one. example. There's there's no way they. could know. He just sat with me. I find. those to be very interesting words. because we think about the role of a. friend in that situation of fixing. things. Diving in there, figuring out. the problem and presenting the solution,

but you said he just sat with me. Oh, man. When Barbara Chapman, my. graduate advisor, died, I was. devastated. And she had two small girls. and I knew her when she was pregnant. with each one of them and I was close. with her family and I went to the House. of Flowers in San Francisco. And her. daughters get up. Okay, one I think was. probably about 12, the older one. The. younger one, by the way, became a neuroscientist, that time was probably about nine. And. these two girls that I've known since. they were essentially in the womb are. there talking about their dead mother. Now, I broke down. I during my eulogy,

like I just lost it. I was crying in. front of my colleagues. I was so embarrassed and at the same. time like I just couldn't hold it back. These two young girls. get up there to talk about their dead. mom. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my. god. Everyone's just bracing themselves. And they just said. they're so strong. They said. the best part about our mom is that she. spent a lot of unstructured time with. us.

And that was it. And they sat down. And I remember. thinking. holy. Like that was it. Of all the things they. did, the baseball games they went to, the things they did. I'm sure they have. so many memories. And the thing they. remember as most important is the fact. that their mom spent a lot of. unstructured time with them. Just hung. out with them. Mhm. Like just hung out with them. And I. think at some level like yeah, we need. people to show up when things are hard. We need people to support us, celebrate. with us, but like.

some ways like a really good friend is. just somebody who just kind of hangs out. with us. Simon Sinek said that to me. He. said what in those moments what you need. is someone just to sit in the mud with. you. You don't need them to do anything. They just need to be sat there in the. mud with you. And that that in part is the medicinal. effect, just knowing that there's. someone else in the mud with you. Yeah. Um Yeah. You know, I I. again, I don't want to focus on names. people recognize because I don't want it. to seem like it's unique to them, but I. I mention names like specific names.

because they may resonate with your. audience, you know. That's why I. mentioned Rick or whatever or like a guy. like Lane Norton I'm getting to know. better. Like Lane on social media is a. pretty, you know, serrated edge guy, right? But he's he's a sweetheart. He's. a kind person and he's got a. ferociousness to him, you know, which is. something I can relate to. He, you know, and um. and I see his loyalty to his kids and I. see, you know, how he like his. fingernails will be painted and people. will tease him and but he does it cuz. his daughter loves it and he also is the.

guy that's going to deadlift twice as. much as anyone else. And he's and he's. got this forward center of mass on. things. And then I also just see like. he's just such a loving person. He loves. what he does. And and I hope people will. start to look at people's personas, certainly online, but in real life and. just start to like take them in a little. bit. Like what are they trying to tell. you when they're. being a little bit annoying? Or what are. they trying to tell you when they're. frustrated by politics? Like like. looking a layer deeper and trying to. like see the person and feel the person.

as as an experience of them as like. another way I think to be a really good. friend. Because when people say like, I. see you, I don't think they're like I. see you. Like you need to do some eye. gazing or something. I think what it is, I mean eye contact's important, of. course, but I don't think it's. it's related to like taking them in. visually as much as just like really. appreciating that. they have all these different sides, all. these different facets. You know, earlier you were talking about your. relationship. I mean, what you described. to me is like real intimacy. Like sure, things proceed along great.

Then there's this challenge. It's a big. one. There's some shame associated with. it. There's confusion. And then people. go into their different domains, do. their work, come together and like share. and then grow. I mean, that's intimacy. It takes risk. It takes a certain amount. of healthy risk and um I think we can do. this in all relationships. And um you. know, I'm no psychologist and I'm still. learning. And Lord knows I have a lot of. work to do, but um I'll be damned if I'm. going to quit. I'm going to keep trying. Andrew, we have a closing tradition on.

this podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next guest not. knowing who they're going to be leaving. it for. And the question left here for you is. what is the true meaning of your life? Why do you exist? Mhm. Goodness, that's a tough one. Meaning, it's hard to distill that down. But I'll pause for a second in an effort. to keep it uncharacteristically brief.

You know, as I mentioned earlier, all I. have is my experience the knowledge that. I gained from that experience and my. words. And. for me, the purpose of my life is to. make the best possible choices that I'm. capable of making at the time in terms. of. what to seek out what to learn.

and what to share. And I think the real. meaning of my life is to try and provide. useful information and tools so that. people can be. a better version of themselves for. themselves and other people. And I know. it sounds lofty and kind of empty and. cliché on the one hand, but I mean it. I. wake up in the morning and I think, what. can I learn? What am I excited to learn? And then when I come across gems I just. compulsively have to tell people about. it. But not because.

I need to do it for me. It's because I. feel like people need to know about. this. This can really help. This can. really help. This can potentially really. really really really help. So, I think that's the meaning of life. for me. Right now? Right now. And um at some point it may be. just to provide care for. little. Hubermans. Um at some point it may be something. entirely different. I've learned to not.

anticipate what the next steps will be. for me um more than five years out. You know, I've seen some ridiculous. speculation that I'm going to go into. politics, probably related to the fact. that I kind of alluded to it once or. twice. I'm not going into politics. I'll tell. you right now. There's no chance I'm. going into politics. It runs countercurrent to my nature. And even if politics changed entirely. it's not for me. Um what is for me is.

learning and adventure and sharing what. I learn. And. that's the only way I know how to be. Andrew, thank you. I didn't know you. before today. I obviously knew of you. because everyone knows you on on the. internet for all the work that you've. done and all the things that you've. shared, but I didn't know the man and. the hours we've spent together today. have really illuminated the man that you. are. And it's really most importantly. illuminated your intentions, which are. so incredibly pure and wonderful. And.

it's because of you that much of my. podcast exists because I learn from your. show. It inspires me and that calls me. to bring guests on often times guests. that you've had on your show that have. changed my life in some way. So you've. been a tremendous driver of both my. development as an individual but also of. this show inadvertently. And also that's. the case with all of my team because the. 30 40 people that work with me here, they're all massive fans of yours but. most importantly they've had their lives. improved because you exist and because. you've taken very complex things and.

distilled them down and shared them with. all of us in a way that we wouldn't. usually have access to. So that's such a. tremendous gift that you've given and. continue to give. So thank you on behalf. of myself and all of my team and. everybody else that was so excited all. my friends that were so excited that I'd. be speaking to you today. I'm tremendously excited about your. book. I hear that there's a book coming. out called Protocols. an operation an operating manual for the. human body. which comes out next year in the 22nd of. April 2025. If there was ever a book I. don't get excited by many books but.

having been such a fan of your work it. is a book that I'm. I consider to be essential. We were. talking about it yesterday. We see it as. it was almost like waiting for the like. the Bible on this subject matter matter. So I I'm going to link it below because. I know it's currently available for. pre-order or pre-sale and I highly. recommend if people find what you do to. be of any value then this is the book to. read. Um I've been doing everything I. can to just get snippets of it from. people around you and the excitement and. anticipation is palpable. So thank you. for taking the time to write that book. cuz you don't have to. You've got a big.

enough audience as it is. You don't have. to sit down and really distill it down. for people. Um and more than anything. just thank you. I really really. appreciate that you what you do and that. the fact that you exist and all that. you've done for me and and all my my. friends and people that matter to me. So. thank you on behalf of all of us. And I. really really mean that from the bottom. of my heart. So thank you. Thank you. I'll take that in and um I'm very. grateful for the opportunity to sit down. with you today. I'm a huge fan and an. admirer of what you've done and what. you're doing. and uh right back at you in the sense. that. you have many many areas of success. You.

don't need to do a podcast um but the. fact that you do bring so much benefit. to the world. It's been just. marvelous to see your ascent which is. just like pointed at the sun. You just. you guys are are doing such incredible. work and continue to. And um you know I. have to say I came here today expecting. we were going to get into some science. into some protocols and I knew we were. going to cover a lot of areas um but I. didn't anticipate uh the depth of the. conversation that we were going to have.

and I can say it's entirely the. consequence of of your realness and and. the uh. the you know the the genuine compassion. that you bring to these kinds of. conversations. That's felt. I also. really appreciate the way you shared. some of your own experience. I can tell. you're somebody who really cares about. people. and that your success is you know in no. small part the consequence of that. So. thank you for having me here and to your. team for having me here. and um. and for for doing what you do. It's. clear you're all in in every endeavor.

and your nature is is an incredible one. The fact that you can take on so many. things and that you've embraced your. nature to not want to go the traditional. path. I think that's an incredible and. incredibly important example for people. So. I can also say that I think that we're. going to be friends. So you should pass. me your number and we'll we'll check in. in the morning and we should grab a meal. or a workout or whatever. Maybe we just. hang out. So I I'd like to think that. we've sparked a friendship. We certainly.

have. Thank you Andrew. Thank you.