Andrew Huberman: The Real Reason You Can't Get Deep Sleep & Wake Up Exhausted

Here's the diabolical thing. The risk of. dying early if you have bright nights. goes up immensely. There have been a lot. of studies on people after 6 p.m. on. devices getting artificial LED exposure. They live shorter lives. Cancer rates go. [music] up. They're metabolically. unhealthy. But here's the really scary. thing. We have a generation of kids that. are metabolically sick. [music] They. cling to their iPads. They're on. devices. But the problem is most things. are designed to make people do [music]. less of what's good for them. And we. don't talk about this enough. And. Andrew, you're one of the most trusted. voices in health today. And we've waited.

many, many years for this protocols, an. operating manual for the human body. These 10 protocols are well established. They're the ones that are going to move. the needle the most in terms of one's. mental health, physical health, and. performance. Okay, so let's get into it. So protocol number one, you want [music]. to get sunlight because exposure each. day to the skin, increases testosterone. and estrogen in both women and men, and. is important for libido. [music]. And then the second, and this is really. key, is to reduce stress fast. And I'll. explain how to do that in a moment. And. then number three, working out with. weights for 45 minutes, taking your sets.

near to failure. It will triple or. quadruple your cortisol levels. But a. lot of people have been told, don't. spike your cortisol. It's the stress. hormone, but it's a preparation hormone. You're preparing for adversity, but also. great things. The next thing, and this. is one of the most valuable skills. If. you do it for 5 minutes per day, you. will experience a significant. improvement in mental and physical. health. And then sleeping on your side, very important for [music] offsetting. dementia, getting rid of bags under your. eyes. But Stephen, the number one thing. that you need to know about is the. moment I started, my life got so much. better [music] and I really started to.

see what I could only describe as. miracles. Andrew, I have this. outstanding question that I have to ask. you. You don't really talk in depth. about supplements. I Oh, I do. I go ham. >> So, you can only do five for the rest. [music] of your life. >> Oh gosh. I highly recommend getting a. >> This is super interesting to me. My team. given me this report to show me how many. of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according. to this that you are unsubscribed from. the channel randomly. So favor to ask. all of you, please could you check right. now if you've hit the subscribe button.

if you are a regular viewer of the show. and you like what we do here. We're. approaching quite a significant landmark. on this show in terms of a subscriber. number. So if there was one simple free. thing that you could do to help us, my. team, everyone here to keep this show. free, to keep it improving year over. year and week over week, it is just to. hit that subscribe button and to double. check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll. ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If. you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every. single month, we fight harder and harder. and harder and harder to bring you the. guests and conversations that you want. to hear. I've stayed true to that.

promise since the very beginning of the. Dio, and I will not let you down. Please. help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get. on with the show. [music]. Andrew Huberman, um, we've waited many, many years for this and now it has. arrived. This is your long-awaited book. called Protocols, an operating manual. for the human body. And inside this. book, I counted roughly 50 different. protocols split across seven different. areas. Um, sleep, exercise, stress.

control, nutrition, light, focus, motivation, and learning, and personal. growth. You've written 10 of the. protocols you want to focus on sharing. today. Can I ask why did you choose. those 10? They're the ones that are going to move. the needle the most in terms of one's. mental health, physical health, and. quote unquote performance. Your life. will be so much better if you do them. >> And do they cost a lot of money to do. the 10 that you've picked? >> No, they could be done either at. completely zero cost or on a existing. budget. >> And do you do these 10 things.

>> every day? >> Every day. >> There's one on there that I don't do. every single day. I take off one day per. week, but every single day without fail. And when you wrote them, did you write. them in order of sequencing? >> Yeah. Throughout the day, from from. start to finish throughout because this. is the other thing. Protocols synergize. They ratchet together. How well you. slept last night is dictating how well. you feel now. >> These are gears in a larger system. One. moves, the other ones move. And while. there is a place for pharmarmacology and. supplements and things that you take,

>> ultimately these gears fit together. based on what you do. >> Okay. So, let's get into it. What was. the first uh thing that you drew? cuz I. saw there was a picture there. >> Okay, so in my unelegant drawing, but I. I am a you know biologist, so we're. allowed to do this. I mean, this is. essentially a plot of where you wake up. in the morning and then where you go to. sleep at night, you know, and these are. not hours of the day. These are the. different protocols. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. 10. Okay, so um this line represents the. healthy cortisol curve. Most people.

don't realize that, but you wake up. because of a rise in cortisol. It's. literally called the cortisol awakening. response. If you've ever woken up 1. minute before your alarm clock, it's. because the cortisol awakening response. is heavily entrainable, meaning it can. be matched to external stimulant. You. want this peak in cortisol as high as. possible in the first 60 minutes of your. day. Everyone thinks you want low cortisol, but here's the deal. High cortisol in. the early part of your day is what. provides for elevated mood, focus, attention, your ability to learn. It's.

also what establishes low cortisol in. the afternoon and at night which is a. requirement for falling and staying. asleep. >> So this peak sets up this trough. So you. want high morning cortisol, low. nighttime cortisol. These represent. melatonin, the hormone of sleepiness. As. we know, if you slept the night before, then melatonin essentially is low at. morning. And the dash line is adenosine, which is a downstream product of of the. use of ATP in your cells. The more.

you're awake, the more activities you. do, the more you think, adenosine builds. up. That's why you get sleepy. [clears throat]. >> So, what's very interesting is that when. you spike your morning cortisol, and. I'll explain how to do that in a moment. And you do that within the first hours. of your day, you also establish a case. where these little blips are stress, stressful text, stressful event, but. they're brief. We always hear that. cortisol is bad, but our ability to have. big inflections in cortisol, stress out, and then they come back down to normal. is very very good. If this peak was.

high, if this peak is not as high, and. this is kind of a like a medium or or. flat what they call a flattening of the. cortisol curve, you see shorter. lifespan, less recovery from every kind. of illness, and and these stress bouts. last a very long time because they're. riding on a higher baseline. So if your. morning cortisol level is lower or flat, >> right, >> then if I get that stressful text during. the day, it will be a longer cortisol. spike. More stress, >> bigger and longer. >> Oh wow.

>> And not only that, but there's an. indirect but very important interaction. between cortisol and melatonin. Your. sleepiness hormone doesn't come on and. function as well. >> And so sleep gets very disrupted. So a. lot of people think, "Oh, I don't want. my morning cortisol high." And a lot of. women in particular have been told, "Don't spike your cortisol. that's going. to lead to excess visceral fat, moon. face, etc. There's this a condition. called Cushing syndrome, which is a. massive overp production of cortisol. Very rare condition. I mean, it happens, but most people are not dealing with. that, right? Most people's morning. cortisol is too low and their afternoon.

and nighttime cortisol is too high. >> How do they know this stuff? Like, how. do they test this? >> This healthy curve, as it's called, um, was measured through just consistent. blood draws around the 24-hour cycle. And then it's been looked at in response. to everything from caffeine to cold. plunges to exercise to sunlight. And. there's this very So protocol number one. is hydrate. Your mind is exceedingly. more sharp when you're well hydrated. And it actually helps boost your morning. cortisol. There's a very interesting. interaction between when the bladder.

being emptied as usually after people. wake up, they use the the restroom, they. urinate, and then hydrating. And there's. an I'll talk about this a few times, but. there's an ascending pathway along the. vagus nerve that serves to wake up the. brain. And part of that has to do with. hydration first thing in the morning. You awake from bed to urinate in the. middle of the night because of an. arousal phenomenon of hydration and the. bladder being full. >> When you say hydrate, do you mean. electrolytes or just water? >> 16 to 32 ounces of good clean water is. fine. If you want to add electrolytes, great. >> How much is that? Is that a cup or is.

that? >> Um, this is 16 ounces. Maybe 18 ounces. >> Okay. So, like a big a big mug. You want. to consume about 80 ounces of water. throughout your day. It's a lot, but you. don't want to cons basically everything. you want to do in the early part of the. day, you want to do less in the evening. part of your day. The next thing, and. this is really key, it could have gone. first, but you want to view sunlight or. 10,000 lux artificial light. I could. spend 3 hours talking about this, but. I'll keep it really brief. When you view. sunlight, there's this beautiful. phenomenon. It activates these. melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive.

ganglen cells. You know, the major focus. of my work for many, many years. So I'll. resist saying more. They literally. extend physical wires that we call axons. into your hypothalamus. Your master. circadian clock resides there. We call. that your super chaismatic nucleus. And. when you view low solar angle sunlight, sun low in the sky, there's an abundance. of yes UV, but it's lower when it's low. in the sky. You actually can look at the. morning sun more easily than you can the. overhead sun. Why? The morning sun looks. more yellow, orange, or even some red. tones.

>> compared to the overhead sky. Well, the. light coming from the sky is the same, right? But the specific wavelengths of. light, as we call them, that are coming. from the sun when it's low in the sky. are the optimal stimulus for these. melanops and intrinsically. photosensitive cells that tell your. central clock it's time to wake up. The. day is beginning. Okay. There's also. something incredible that happens if you. get bright light in your eyes in that. first ideally 30 minutes but even 60. minutes of your day which it there are. two pathways by which your brain.

circadian clock wakes you up. One is it. sends signals through peptides it. releases and neural signals but it's. able to activate what we call the HPA. axis hypothalamus pituitary gland which. is sort of hangs outside the brain and. then adrenals you release adrenaline. there's a unique window that passes. after about an hour following waking. where your supercismatic clock can. trigger an alternate pathway that. literally goes down your spinal column. and triggers your adrenals to release.

additional cortisol. In fact, viewing. sunlight in the first hour of your day. takes this peak. Here's what it would. look like if you didn't view bright. light in the first hour of your day. It. would be here, which is bad. And your. stress responses then would be bigger. and longer. This. increase in cortisol is driven by. viewing sunlight. Now, when I say. sunlight, people say, especially in the. UK, they'll say there's no sun where I. live. Okay, this could easily see say. daylight. Why? Because there's always.

daylight out. If you look at how bright. it is on an overcast day in the middle. of December, even in the UK at 8:00 a.m. versus midnight the night before, it's. different. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's obvious when there's. overcast skies, less of the long. wavelength light, the oranges and reds. are coming through. But you want. daylight in your eyes in the first hours. of your day. Go out on your balcony if. that's all you can do. If you're in a. car, roll down the window. It's not good. to try and do this through a window or. windshield. There's so much data showing.

that spiking your morning cortisol this. way establishes low cortisol and high. sleepiness hormones let's call them at. night which is great buffers stress and. moreover kickstarts your immune system. to protect you against bacteria and. viruses you can encounter during the day. it is great for your metabolism mood. ability to learn and on and on and in. the book I explain a number of different. ways how this peak relates to this. trough if people are interested but if. you don't have access to sunlight or. daylight light. Having a using a 10,000.

lux artificial light can be very. beneficial. These 10,000 lux lights have. been shown to significantly. offset the symptoms of seasonal. effective disorder, etc. But what we're. finding from this huge study from the UK. bio bank is that you want bright days. and you want dark nights and they're. additive. So having bright days is great. for your mental health and physical. health along a huge number of. parameters. Significantly improves them. But having dark, even if you were in dim. light all day, making it dark at night,

people are healthier. The risk of dying. early, if you have bright nights, goes. up immensely. And we don't talk about. this enough. If you don't have access to. enough daylight, like you wake up before. the sun comes out and you're up for 2. hours, let's say before the sun comes. out. I highly recommend getting a 10,000. lux artificial light. >> And last time we spoke, you took me. outside after the conversation and you. had an app on your phone, >> right? Light meter. I have no relation. to the app, but I use it. And that is. able to tell you how much lux of light. you're getting at the moment. >> But it's additive. So one thing that's. important to note is let's say you miss.

a day, right? The next day get outside. for twice as long. How long should you. do it on a very clear morning with the. sun rising? And by the way, you don't. need to see the sun cross the horizon. You can just wait till it's elevated but. it's low in the sky. People who are. concerned about UV damage should know. that when the sun is low in the sky, the. UV index is much lower. And there's a. reason for that. It's a phenomenon. called relay scattering. Sunrises and. sunsets are very beautiful and colorful. When the sun's overhead, it's hard to. look at. It's this big ball of light. It's so bright because you're getting.

all the wavelengths, the UV all the way. out to the infrared coming at you in. more or less equal intensities. When the. sun is low in the sky, the UV is it's. not completely scattered, but not as. much of that is is reaching your eyes. Much lower risk of sunburn, much lower. risk of eye damage, and so on. So, here's the diabolical thing. Your. screens are not nearly bright enough to. kickstart this increase in cortisol in. the morning, but they are very capable. of increasing your cortisol levels at.

night because the this low level of. cortisol makes you vulnerable to big. increases in cortisol. It's a little bit. of a detail that I explain in the book, but. >> I was going to say on this point, is it. just exposing my eyes to the light or. does my body need to be exposed to it? >> Great point. And one of the protocols in. there, it's not one of the 10 I listed, is about the importance of getting. sunlight on as much of your skin as. possible as is socially appropriate. Uh, beautiful work from Glen Jeffy's lab at. University College London. You know, I. can believe this. They do a glucose. tolerance test. So they fast people, they have them drink a glucose drink.

They measure how fast a blood sugar. rises. And if they shine red light, so. long wavelength is red is long. wavelength light. >> like that. Like that. >> Yeah. Like this would be medium. wavelength because it's yellow. A red. would be um so this is probably I'm. guessing somewhere between 500 and 600. nanometers of light and red would be. probably somewhere between 580 and 700. and then infrared goes out further you. know into the 800s and thousand. The sun. emits all of those. Okay, so this is. long wavelength light. Okay. So, they.

shine a long wavelength light on. people's backs and they do the glucose. tolerance test and and they observe a. more than 25% reduction in the peak and. they also look at the rate of rise of. blood glucose. It's buffering blood. glucose rise which we know is a good. thing. >> Just to summarize, they shine red light. on someone's back while they have a. glucose shot and their glucose spike is. lower. >> That's right. And you can do this onto. bare skin or you can do it through a. t-shirt. Turns out that these people's. metabolism rose significantly. Why? How?

Well, long wavelength light can actually. go into and through your body. It can it. gets absorbed and it can go about 8. centimeters into the body. Red light. wavelength light of infrared can pass. all the way through the body. They show. that beautifully in this study. So. that's not good. No, it's fantastic. because along the way it makes. confirmational changes in the way that. your mitochondria handle the electrons. Basically this long wavelength infrared. light that comes from the sun. It's the. heat that you feel from the sun or from.

a long wavelength light device allows is. so amazing. It actually allows your. mitochondria to to function more. effectively, more efficiently. Now, it's. not to say that short wavelength light, blues and greens and ultraviolet light. are bad. We need ultraviolet light. We. need it on our skin to make vitamin D. What you want is full spectrum balanced. light, but not so much UV that you get a. sunburn. And you don't want a lot of. shortwavelength light in the absence of. long wavelength light. Best way to do.

that, sunlight in the early and later. part of the day because the UV index is. low. You're getting the full spectrum. Indoor LED lights like this, which we. all spend a lot of time under. There's. now evidence from from Glen Jeffy's lab. and others that it actually may damage. the mitochondria. We talked about. melatonin coming coming from the pineal. gland that makes you sleepy at night. You also have melatonin in most all of. the cells of your body. And there it. doesn't make you sleepy. serves as an. antioxidant but it's sort of captured. and the way to liberate it is through. long wavelength light. So you have a.

protective mechanism that's kicked on. with long wavelength light that protects. you protects you against the oxidative. stress and damage to cells. >> and this has many many positive effects. So Glenn's lab has done experiments. where they literally take in a light. like this and they have people look at. it like this for one to three minutes a. couple times a week. They look at people. different ages, different eye. conditions. He's a serious vision. scientist, right? He's not he's not a. biohacker. He's not he's has no interest. in commercial products actually, although sometimes I wish he did. People.

over 40 who experience age related. vision loss, we all do a little bit, experience improvements in vision when. they do this simple thing. And why would. that be? Well, it turns out that your. photo receptors, which absorb light and. convert it into electrical signals that. allow you to see, are the most. mitochondrial rich and metabolically. active cells in your entire body. Now, biologists love to play this game where. they go, "Your tongue is the most. metabolically active." Then they go, "No, you're you." Everyone makes a claim. on this. The photo receptors, my.

friends, are the most metabolically. active cells in your entire body. So, they have a ton of mitochondria, and. they need to protect themselves against. the oxidative damage that comes with. generating a bunch of downstream. products from ATP. So, long wavelength. light is what protects us in this. So. you can see significant improvements in. vision for people that view long. wavelength light couple times a week. But only in people older than 40. And. get this, only in people that do that in. the first 3 hours of their day. >> What? >> Yes. Your eyes and your body and brain.

are not the same at this first third of. your day versus this middle third of. your day versus the last third of your. day and at night. They're not. Your. sensitivity to bright light causing bad. effects on you after sundown increases. Not immediately, but it increases. gradually. Your need for bright light in. your eyes in the early part of the of. the day is immense. You need this. You. you want this. And if you miss a day, get out the next day and view some more. light. You asked, will light to other.

parts of the body work? Not for setting. this system in motion, but it's a great. idea to get out two to three times per. week when the UV index is low. you can. just look on your phone what's the UV. index and in general be the early or the. or the later half of your day when the. UV index is lower and to get out and get. some light onto your skin. You don't. have to be naked or in a swimsuit. Great. if you are and that's appropriate, but. you can also just wear a t-shirt because. the long wavelength light will go all. the way through. So Glenn Jeffrey and. Robert Roger Schwelt, he's a physician. who talks about the immense benefits of.

getting sunlight onto the skin for. getting over disease for state for. enhancing immune system function and on. and on. >> Can you because there's going to be a. lot of people right now that are going. to go buy a red light lamp. >> Not necessary. >> Not necessary. >> No. Sunlight. Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd. album. >> Pass sunlight through a prism. It bends. the light and you see the rainbow. Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. But also in that sunlight is. ultraviolet light, some UVB exposure. each day to the skin, increases.

testosterone and estrogen in both women. and men and is important for libido. It. actually reinforces romantic. relationships for reasons other than uh. sexual interactions, um attractiveness, etc. Strong effects. So sunlight has it. all. What you don't want is to go. outside when there's so much UV that you. get a sunburn. And you don't want to. think that, you know, red light's the. only light you need. You want that. warmth from from the sun. And it gets. better because and notice I'm I'm sort. of like it gets better like a salesman.

I'm selling nature. Okay, I'm telling. you when you go outside and there's a. lot of greenery. Greenery reflects long. wavelength red and infrared light. Throw. on some infrared goggles and you're not. going to do this, but you look and they. all that stuff would be glowing white in. those goggles. Greenery reflects down. infrared light. How do you know it. reflects light? I'm stealing Roger's. words as I say this, but where's the. coolest place to be on a hot day? Under. a tree. Why is that? Because it's. reflecting the heat, the infrared light.

But when you're out in greenery, you're. getting all that long wavelength light, and it bounces around and it goes. through you. So, get out into nature, walk outside. If you work and live in a. city, get outside, take off a brimmed. hat because you do want the the sun. getting down onto your onto your face. People are so terrified about. accelerating aging based on UV, but. we're not talking about baking yourself. in UV light all day. The the health. benefits of this are immense. There's a. Swedish study that actually showed that. the more sunlight people got, the longer. they lived, in fact, smokers who got a.

lot of sunlight, this isn't my favorite. study, but um but we have to admit it's. there, lived longers than non-smokers. who didn't get enough sunlight. There. and there are other things too like. exercise, etc., but don't smoke, but get. sunlight. There'll be a lot of night. shift workers listening. >> I have a section specifically for night. shift workers because. here are the two scariest things. Night. shift workers. live shorter lives. Cancer rates go up. They're metabolically unhealthy. And.

it's very hard to mitigate. But I. provide some tools specifically for. night shift workers and for jet lag, by. the way, because people travel. Here's. the really scary thing. you and I. qualify as night shift workers because. the studies on night shift work, barring. some of the more extreme ones, was most. of them were on how many people after. 6:00 p.m., right, are on devices getting. artificial LED exposure or doing. activities besides eating and. socializing with their family or in bed.

If you work at night at home, you're. still a night shift worker. You don't. have to work all night to be a night. shift worker. So, we have a generation. of kids that are metabolically sick. And. I don't like to be one of these like. fearmonger people, but here's the cool. thing. I'm going to skip because we're. on to this. I'm going to skip to number. six. >> Okay. >> Okay. As the sun is going down, you. don't have to watch the sunset. That. would be cool to watch the sun. Everyone. loves sunsets. >> But try and get some daylight in your. eyes in the late afternoon or evening. If you're going to be working indoors.

from like after lunch until nightfall, try and get near a window. Do your best. Go out on a balcony, take a quick walk. around the building, do what you can to. get some sunlight in your eyes without. sunglasses. When you get some sunlight. in your eyes in the late part of your. day, let's just say in the last third of. your day, and the clock times don't. matter here cuz we all get up and go to. sleep at different times. You buffer. those cells in your eye against the. negative effects of artificial light at. night. This is your Netflix o. inoculation, as I call it. Like you can.

be on your computer at 9 or 10 at night. without it damaging your melatonin. levels quite as much, without it. disrupting your blood glucose levels and. your sleep if you get some bright light. in your eyes in the later part of your. day. But there's one population of. people for whom this doesn't work and it. seems to be adolescence. You can't. buffer them against the negative effects. of screen light at night. What happens. if you use screen light at night? You. get big bumps in cortisol and people. say, "Well, I can fall asleep just fine. after being on my iPad or screen." True,

some people don't have as much of a. negative effect from blue light at. night, but the blood glucose effects and. the next morning cortisol effects are. the problem. Remember I said high. cortisol sets you up for low cortisol. >> Yeah. >> Low cortisol sets you up for high. cortisol. So you've got a population of. people, kids who have their cortisol is. slightly but significantly higher in the. evening and at night because they're on. devices and the next morning their. cortisol levels are struggling to get. up. M. >> you know this is a tough one because.

teens socialize that way and you don't. want to take their phones away and they. cling to their iPads like you know like. my new bulldog strummer clings to a chew. toy you know it's like you can take it. away from them but like they hate you. for it. So I said view daylight cuz you. can't always see the sun but even if. it's overcast just get out for a few. minutes and take a walk your sleep will. be better. >> I feel like I'm [clears throat] giving a. lecture in class. >> That's amazing. That's what I want. >> So we said hydrate sunlight. And then. number three, I know everyone's heard. it, but if you can exercise in the first. 3 to four hours of your day, you could.

do it in the afternoon without problem, but there's a huge advantage to doing. cardiovascular resistance training in. the first 3 hours of your day. >> Cardiovascular or resistance training. >> Yeah. And in the book, I devote an. entire chapter, chapter 2, to exercise. And I explain what I think personally is. the best way to structure an exercise. program for somebody who doesn't want to. be the most jacked, but wants muscle and. definition and strength. somebody that. doesn't need to run a marathon for a. record time, but wants endurance. Somebody who wants to be able to sprint. reasonably fast and has middle distance.

ability, too. And it's basically. structured. You either lift or do cardio. on alternating days, three days total of. lifting. Warm up reasonably low volume. of work sets, two to three work sets per. exercise, emphasizing compound. movements. So, not a like a preacher. curl or a tricep kickback. Those are. fine, but you're going to get a lot more. bang for your buck if you're doing. pull-ups, rows, dips, >> multiple muscles at once, >> multiple joints moving at once as. compound. Um, some hip hinge movement. So, could be squat, hack squat, some.

deadlifts, and I talk about how to get. specific aesthetic effects in there, too. I mean, I'm by no means an exercise. physiologist, but I've been resistance. training since I was 16. I'm I'm now 50. I'll be 51 in a month, so I feel great. cardio at the start if you're doing. resistance training or not at all. >> I warm up for 5 minutes of cardio and. then resistance train, but I do the. cardio on alternate days. Three days. total of cardio. One day of cardio is. long and slow for about an hour. One is. about 30 minutes at moderate intensity. One is a short one like I did this. morning. Jumped on the air bike, pedal.

easy for a minute, then go all out for. 30 seconds, easy for 10, 30, 10, 30, 10, 30, 10, and then you're off the bike. Basically max heart rate training. Yeah. >> And the day after leg day, if you do. your legs right, take a rest day. >> Yeah. But the here's the interesting. thing about exercise. You notice I. didn't say deliberate cold exposure. >> You [clears throat] want to blow some. minds? I will go toe-to-toe with anybody. on the internet or off the internet. Deliberate cold exposure does not raise. cortisol.

This much. It's amazing to me that the. same people that are suggesting moderate. to high-intensity exercise are saying. that deliberate cold exposure raises. cortisol. is simply not true. Not true. for women cuz a lot of people said, "Is. your book going to be for women and. men?" I distinguish between data when. there are data showing that it's. different for women and men. I. acknowledge when there's no data in. women and the data are very clear in. women and men, trivial increases in. cortisol, magnificent huge increases in. adrenaline, norepinephrine, and dopamine. from deliberate cold exposure. And that.

those so so-called catakolamines are. great to have rolling into your day. They're the things of alertness and. focus. The appropriate stressor for. cortisol, appropriate meaning the one. that you want, is a psychological. stressor. We know that. >> Working out with weights for 45 minutes, taking your sets near to failure, going. for a run for 30 minutes. So, the point. being, if you do this exercise in the. first three hours of your day, you're. getting a big inflection in cortisol. Again, this is what you want. Now, some. people can't exercise first thing in the.

day. They either don't want to or they. can't by way of schedule. And if you go. into exercise in the later part of your. day, that's fine. Your cortisol will. come back down. You can do some long. exhale breathing to slow your heart. rate. Andy Galpin talks about that. Take. a hot shower, which paradoxically lowers. your core body temperature. And then. helps you sleep. When you heat up the. surface of your body, >> you have a thermostat in your brain. called the medial preoptic area, and it. goes, "Oh, the surface of my body is. warm. I should probably cool my core. body temperature down." And you fall. asleep better. You know, this is like.

the the putting socks on effect or the. hot bath effect, right? I assume a. massage or something like that also. >> Great. You have access to that in the. last hour of your day. Like uh we need. to learn more about your life. [laughter]. >> My fiance used to be a masseuse for many. years. So she. >> awesome. >> So when you exercise for a few days. early in the first three hours of your. day, let's say you do that two times. The next morning you wake up feeling a. little bit more willing to exercise. Did. your willpower change? Well, in some. sense, yes. But what happened was your.

cortisol entrainment mechanisms changed. Your superc kaismatic nucleus all day is. clocking what you're doing. Let's say. you eat like 9, 12, snack at 3 and 6:30. You have a food anticipatory signal. You. have ghrein is secreted makes you. hungry. We are clocks and the. synchronization of those clocks is very. very important. When you exercise at. roughly the same time of day, early in. the day, you will have more energy to. exercise in the first 15 minutes before. that. You'll notice you kind of start. stirring around. Yes, part of it is. cognitive, but a lot of it actually is.

your brain is anticipating. exercises coming. Oh, cool. That's why I. I teach neuro anatomy, so this is fun. >> I have a a brain here in front of me. It. does open up in case you want to open it. up. But you just reminded me of. something. >> You reminded me of something that I saw. you talk about, which was the anterior. mid-sulate cortex. >> And I think you described this as being. one of the most interesting. >> discoveries of neuroscience. So. singulate cortex I mean it's not. directly exposed here but the anterior.

mids singulate cortex would sit. somewhere like there this is an amazing. structure right I mean just to remind. people like when we feel some sort of. pressure social pressure physical. pressure that we hate and we decide I'm. going to lean into this like I'm going. to compete or I'm going to push through. this internal or external resistance. neurons in the anterior midsulate cortex. are just firing away and if that area is. stimulated my colleague Joe Parvevesy at.

Stanford showed this he's a neurosurgeon. people say I feel like a challenge is. coming on and I'm going to lean into it. this is the brain area of tenacity. and the amazing thing is it has. connections all over the brain with. reward systems etc so it's collecting. information about when it gets activated. what's going on in the world that makes. you feel pressure when you feel like. pushing back when you don't but the Best. part is it is highly subject to. plasticity. People who diet successfully.

their anterior mids singulate cortex. gets bigger and more active. People who. embark on a new exercise program adding. some component of exercise. For me it's. mobility work because I've got a little. stiff over the years. I know. So when. you do something that you don't want to. do, that you don't reflexively do, your. anterior midsulate cortex gets bigger. and more willing to engage in. challenging things going forward. >> Yeah. So that's the key point, which is. that sets you up to be able to do more. challenging things in the future.

>> That's right. Why would you do. deliberate cold exposure? I'll tell you. why. Because your ability to sit calmly. or even not so calmly when your system. is flooded with adrenaline and. norepinephrine and to be able to trigger. that with cold water safely like cold. shower, getting into a cold ice bath, it's safe as long as it's not so cold. As long as you're not hyperventilating. beforehand on purpose, that carries over. to your ability to keep your head. straight when other things trigger. adrenaline. You don't get 10 stress. systems, you get one. And stress looks.

like your adrenaline goes and it comes. down slowly. This is a hallmark of. stress. Cortisol goes up goes down. Right? So the Oh, you are prepared, my. friend. My goodness, you should be a. university professor. You want to teach. with me at Stanford? So I came up with a. model for arousal, right? People hear. arousal and they think, "Oh, it's got to. be romantic arousal." It can be, but. arousal is really just how alert or. sleepy you are. So you can be really. sleepy, like in a coma, or you can be in. full-blown panic. Nobody wants that. But. a seesaw is the right analogy here.

because we have this thing called the. autonomic nervous system. And the. autonomic nervous system is made up of. two parts, parasympathetic and the. sympathetic nervous system. They're in. different parts of the body. They both. connect to most every organ. But in. general, when you are relaxed, that's. what we call the reflection of. parasympathetic tone going up. When. you're stressed, it's the reflection of. sympathetic tone going up. But as you. get sleepy, your parasympathetic nervous. system starts to dominate a bit. And as.

you get really sleepy, it dominates more. when you wake up in the morning. And. then if you do the right things like. hydrate, get sunlight and some exercise, well then your cortisol goes up and. you're going to be more alert. The. ability to navigate stress of all kinds. depends on your ability to do what I. call is control the tightness of this. hinge. When you train your ability to. think, breathe, stay calm, when your. system is flooded with adrenaline and.

that happens later in a way that was. nonvoluntary, something happened that. you didn't want to happen, your brain. immediately flits to the understanding. of that place and you are able to. maintain thoughtfulness. You can know to. not speak. That's often the best thing. you can do. You know to react or not. react. In fact, when you get into a cold. plunge, one of the beautiful things. about cold is that your prefrontal. cortex that's involved in strategy. setting and making meaning out of what's. going on, its activity is greatly.

suppressed for the first 20 to 30. seconds. Know this about every stressful. circumstance. In the first 20 to 30. seconds, you are brain damaged. You are. brain damaged. You're you are in that. mode of like you could react physically. Sometimes that can save your life, but. most times you just don't want to do. anything. Step out of the way of the. car, get away from the aggressor, whatever. But most times you're best off. not saying a darn thing. And then your. prefrontal cortex slowly starts coming. back online. And then you're back again. cuz you're ruminating, you know? And.

>> this is good relationship advice. >> Very good relationship advice. [laughter] I wish I had learned it long. ago. Right. Actually, last night I. looked on Twitter and I saw something. that was both perplexing and a little. bit upsetting to me. And I went to sleep. like, I know how to deal with this. Some. long exhale breathing, which will slow. your heart rate. and we'll talk about. that. But I woke up this morning, turns. out it was a complete misunderstanding. and everything was reversed. But last. night I thought about sending a text, but I thought later at night the. prefrontal cortex is already diminished. This is why stress feels so much harder. to deal with at night.

>> and prefrontal cortex. We should. describe that logic and stuff. >> So um frontal cortex, so here it's. logical. You have the frontal and motor. areas here. And your prefrontal cortex. is basically a big patch of real estate. behind your forehead that in humans is. greatly expanded compared to in other. mammals. I don't like calling them. lower, but they have less prefrontal. cortex. So, they're more driven by their. impulses. One of the most incredible. things that every child and adult needs. to develop is what's called top- down. inhibition. You feel an impulse, but you.

resist the impulse. M. >> in fact the way I've mostly trained my. dog strummer because it works is I. taught him at 9 weeks of age put down a. piece of food of course he goes for it. he loves food and you teach him wait and. he sits there and you teach him to look. at you and then now he I can have him. moving toward a piece of food and I say. wait and his nose can be this far and. he'll just stop. He has great top- down. inhibition. Is it about food? No. Am I. trying to torture him? Of course not.

It's so that if I say wait, he can. suppress his arousal. >> This is one of the most valuable skills. And people with frontal damage show an. inability to do that, which is why. sometimes they're violent or they say. inappropriate things. People who are. tired, stressed, drunk, prefrontal. cortex activity is suppressed. Get in a. cold shower. First 20, 30 seconds, it's. kind of fun. You're you're like, here I. am with less of a brain than I had. getting in. And then 30 seconds later.

you're like, I can do this. >> This explains why you do things tired. >> Don't do things tired. Don't say things. tired. Impulse control is way worse. >> So when I heard you talk about the. anterior mids singular cortex and that. there was this part of the brain that. was kind of like the willpower or you. described it then as the tenacity. muscle. It completely changed my. relationship with hard things because it. made me realize at some sort of like I. guess some conceptual level that every. hard thing I overcome is better. equipping me like when I you know curl. weights in the gym to do harder things.

tomorrow. >> Yes. >> When I heard other oh there's like a. neurological I'm making a neurological. investment in my future and then you. talked there about doing voluntary. difficult things like the cold plunge. whatever. >> or learning a new language. It can be. cognitive in nature. It can be learning. to dance if that's stressful for you. And it can be anything that creates some. resistance for you, internal resistance, anything of that sort. This is a a. beautiful structure because it's wired. into cognitive capacities and our.

ability to build them and challenges. with that to emotional challenges. >> We're kind of optimizing our lives. towards comfort though, aren't we? That's like a winning formula is more. comfortable things. >> I think Jack Dorsey said it best. There's this great video of him online. It was it was a small lecture that he. was giving where he said anytime we. exchange ourselves, our money, our time. for convenience, we are almost always. giving up something that's like. fundamentally useful for us. neurologically. And it's okay to do. I. order food on Door Dash cuz there's.

great food and I don't have a lot of. time to cook. I'd like to devote my time. to other things. I'm trading for. convenience. But if you're aware of the. trade-off, you're much better off. And. the real question is what you're going. to do with that additional time. While. I'm against, you know, overoptimization. to the point that it pulls you out of. life, like it diminishes life, I am all. for striving and optimization quote. unquote in ways that allow you to lean. into the rest of your life with more. vigor. I think Arthur Brooks says it. best. You know I mean we are wired and. meaning comes from striving and within.

striving is some struggle and within. struggle is also the release from. struggle and that's also very uh. satisfying. Here's the overoptimization. thing to me in a nutshell which is. there are people for whom doing two of. the things I described for 5 minutes. each per day will experience a. significant improvement in their mental. and physical health. There are people. for whom they're sort of like junkyard. dogs. They can live on anything. They. have a ton of vigor and they're going be. like, "Yeah, I didn't feel that much.

from like drinking some water and. getting sunlight." Cool. I got you. You're one of those people who can fall. asleep in front of the screen, get up, and just keep going on a, you know, sugary muffin and something like great. >> But everyone can afford to take a look. at what they're doing now and try and. move the needle toward more vigor, well-being, happiness, peace by doing certain. things. >> Do you become more sensitive to the. thing when you stop doing the thing? >> Depends on the thing. So, for instance, if people like I talk about nutrition in.

there and all we it's one of the cards I. actually cover everything from the all. meat diet to vegan diets to I really go. into the literature so people can choose. but really if you look at what most. people could benefit from doing and you. could do this with vegan or vegetarian. it's a little harder but the best diet. is going to be the following right not. too many calories not too few that's. individual you can calculate that it's. an easy thing to do but I provide a way. to do that you need to get what's what. are high complete protein to calorie. ratio proteins. This is a concept I came.

up with because if you look at the. literature, yes, we need the essential. amino acids. So that's a complete. protein, but you can get that from beans. and rice, but to get 30 g of complete. protein from beans and rice, you're. going to consume about four to five. times as many calories as is required if. you get it from a chicken breast. >> So this is the the factor that's kind of. obvious, but no one ever talks about. So. you want to eat some high complete. protein to calorie ratio protein. So you. know eggs, lean meat, fish and then. everyone knows you need fiber,

>> right? So vegetables and fruits. But. what I will say is that many people who. remove us starches entirely. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> Or remove vegetables entirely will find. that they their autoimmune issues. resolve and there are reasons for that. and we have to acknowledge that. But. most people should be eating some. vegetables and fruit for micronutrients. and fiber. Low sugar fermented food. very clear Justin Sonnenberg's work from. Stanford very clear lowers the. inflammatome in fact when they had. people eat more fiber for many people.

inflammatory markers went up no one. likes to talk about that especially not. the vegans but too much fiber can be. noxious for some people and. pro-inflammatory so low sugar fermented. foods like sauerkraut kimchi beet kvass. is delicious problem is they tend to be. expensive but you can make your own and. there's recipes online to do these. things I don't want to get into the seed. oil debate. Just eat just use olive oil. It's delicious. It's relatively. inexpensive nowadays to get real olive. oil. Small amounts of butter. Okay. Like.

like why are we even debating seed oils? It's so dumb. It's like the the seed oil. debate is like the fastest way to kill. neurons that I'm aware of. You know, it's like so dumb. It's like because the. studies are not well done. You're. comparing a processed food diet that. includes seed oils versus or you're. talking clean seed oils versus a high. meat diet with processed meat. It's a. it's a mess. It's like as a scientist, you just look at this and you go like. this field sucks. >> Like it someone wants to have a. magnificent career in science. Go into. the field of nutrition and do some.

really good studies because the studies. are a little lousy. 90% of them like you. can look at it. You don't even have to. be trained in nutrition. You go there. five different variables here and four. over here. This is like what you would. call a bad experiment. >> So olive oil the data are great. It's. impressive. And then starches are great. for fueling muscles and glycogen and. brain, but you don't want to overdo. them. And the way that people tend to. overdo starches is by eating starches. combined with a lot of fats. So.

sourdough bread is great. Sourdough. bread with butter is even better if you. ask me. Sourdough bread with equal. amounts of butter and bread, you're. starting to get into problems. It's very. hard for people to go from like to. overeat starches unless they have a lot. of fats with them or sugar with them. on. starches. Is there an impact? I think. I've heard you talk about an impact on. your sleep with what you eat late at. night. >> Many people who don't eat enough. starches find that they have sleep. issues. And there are reasons for this. because we talk about comfort foods.

>> Typically, people think junk foods when. they think comfort foods, but foods that. increase glucose lower cortisol. H, that's weird. Starches lower cortisol. And you want your cortisol low at night. Helps you fall and stay asleep. Now, you. don't want to eat too close to bedtime. You also don't want to have gnawing. hunger at bedtime. We talked about that. But here's the interesting thing. What. is cortisol? We I should have mentioned. this earlier. What is cortisol? Is it a. stress hormone? No. It's a hormone. that's released during stress. But.

cortisol's job is not to deal with. stress. Cortisol's job is to mobilize. energy in the body. When cortisol goes. up, glucose is mobilized and other. fuels, too. So when you eat starches, you buffer cortisol. There's a very clear relationship here. So people who are not eating enough. starches who then allow themselves that. bowl of rice or a bowl of pasta in their. final meal of the day or a little bit at. lunch and at dinner, maybe even a bowl. of oatmeal breakfast, they feel more.

even psychologically. They have more. physical energy. Sometimes people with. chronic stress issues notice they stop. shaking. People with autoimmune issues. sometimes resolve those because your. cortisol is buffered. Mhm. >> Because your blood glucose is elevated. and so your body isn't tapping into the. survival system to try and mobilize. glucose. So. >> I have this outstanding question that I. have to ask you. It goes back to the. picture that you drew of the graph. Where is that one? You said high. cortisol in the morning is a good thing. >> Yep. >> So what if I pick up my phone first.

thing in the morning and I look at my. worst emails. >> in some sense from the perspective of. spiking your cortisol? Like it's a good. thing. But can you do it outside while. getting sunlight? I was wondering if it. matters like how the cortisol comes. because what if I stress myself out in. the morning? I I really. >> doesn't matter. The problem is the. rumination that comes with stress, right? So, you know, the nice thing. about physical stressors that we control. like a workout or a cold plunge is that. they have an onset and an offset. And. yes, they start faster than they end,

right? You have stress and it kind of. carries over. You ruminate. But. psychological stressors tend to bang. around in our brain a lot and late at. night and they tend to come back. I will. say this, I think 2027 is going to be. the year that we close the coffin on. this cortisol is bad thing. >> So, how should I think about cort. cortisol? Because right now, I think of. it as the stress hormone. >> It's to mobilize energy, >> okay? >> So, you can use it, >> okay? >> And if you're going to sleep at night, you don't need to mobilize energy so you. can use it. You need to rest and reset. your body.

>> Okay? >> Cortisol is an energyromoting. hormone. So if I walk up on stage, my. cortisol level, like before I go up on. stage and there's a big audience, whatever, my cortisol level is going to. go up then. >> Yeah. If you're stressed about it, maybe. a little bit more, but it's it's it's a. preparation hormone. You're preparing. for adversity, but also great things. There are these beautiful studies from a. guy named James McGaw and Larry Cahill, which showed do you know that if you. want somebody to learn something, you. know what you do? You spike their. cortisol before, during, or after that. thing should work. Why not? Trauma does.

that and you never forget. All you do is. work on trying to remove the emotional. load of that traumatic thing. >> Wait, so if does that mean that someone. who's listening to this podcast right. now in the gym. >> is going to have better knowledge recall. of what we talked about than someone. who's listening in bed? >> Great question. So I have a a chapter. that's all about learning motivation and. plasticity. And we've all heard exercise. makes your brain better. How? Why? Turns. out it's very important to understand. There are two ways it does it or at. least two. One is it raises your levels.

of arousal. Exercise doesn't make you. smarter. Exercise makes you more alert. coming out of the exercise so you can go. learn things because it turns out you. have to be alert to learn things. In. particular, you need adrenaline and. cortisol elevated to learn things. So. when people say, you know, weightlifting. makes is good for your brain. Cardio is. good for your brain. Turns out long slow. cardio, my endurance friends aren't. going to like this. Not that great for. your brain. It's not bad for your brain, but it's not that great for your brain. Turns out an intense weightlifting.

session or high-intensity interval. training session in the 4 hours after. that you are primed for learning. Why? You got a lot of stimulatory molecules. in your body and you can focus better. >> What about if I'm a podcaster and I want. to be able to ask good questions and use. my mouth and my brain uh in that context. not not necessarily just learning but. performance of my sort of cognition. >> So the performance curve basically is. inverted to you. If you're not alert. enough, you can't do what you need to. do. If you're too alert, you can't do. what you need to do or learn. So, you. want to be at the top of that inverted.

U. And a lot of what learning is about. and a lot of what the intermedulate. cortex is about is getting from I don't. want to do it up to the top of that U. Then it's usually about not getting too. stressed. Now, I learned the best trick. for this, like the two best tricks. And. in fact, that will take us to number. five. You can use any time of of day, which is use physiological size to. reduce stress fast. Okay. Okay. So, I. have a a chapter on stress mitigation. and it's got essentially two components. One is how to limit stress in the. moment.

>> Okay. >> Very very important to know how to limit. stress in the moment. And here, >> why is it so important? >> Oh gosh. Because meditation, great. night's sleep, massage, social relations, being wellfed, hydrated, all of that helps you buffer. stress. But when something happens and. your heart rate is too high or you're. shaking and you can't organize your. thoughts in the way you want, none of. that helps. you've gone over the line. You're too far on the arousal spectrum. towards alert. And it was about 2016 that I realized.

I'm going to take a significant portion. of my lab and work on this problem. I. want to find real time tools for. mitigating stress. So I started hanging. around with people from special. operations who sit in ice baths and cold. water. And they don't actually do ice. baths by the way in the SEAL teams. They. spend a lot of time in cold water during. their training. And I started talking to. people in performance fields in. particular neurosurgeons, people who. deal with life or death circumstances. for many, many years and maintain. immense calm. One of my closest. childhood friends, he's you should have. him on this podcast. It's his name is.

Dr. Eddie Chang and he's a neurosurgeon. at UCSF. He's the chair of neurosurgery. and he's brought people out of lockin. syndrome to speak through AI. He's also. a bioengineer. He's also been my friend. since we were 7 years old. And we talk. three times a week these days about. science. And I actually visited his. laboratory and got to see him take a. golf ballized tumor out of a guy's. forebrain while the guy was awake. >> Wow. >> Eddie is the calmst guy you'll ever. meet. Why? Because a movement of less. than a millimeter in the wrong direction. for him could cost a patient's life.

People have ways to calm down in real. time. So I teamed up with a colleague, his name is David Spiegel. He's our uh. at that time he was our associate chair. of psychiatry and he studies hypnosis. but clinical hypnosis for smoking. sessation pain management and anxiety. and I should say mainly Malise Yilz. Balban in my lab did the study she built. this stress lab with VR and stress and. that's a whole other thing and then we. did this study where about a hundred or. so subjects were fixed with um trackers.

that measured heart rate and heart rate. variability and sleep and people were in. one of four groups. They either. meditated for 5 minutes a day or they. did box breathing. Inhale, hold, exhale, hold for 5 minutes. Okay? >> Like 4 seconds each or something. >> There's a way you can measure it, which. is the carbon dioxide tolerance test. Like how well you can control an exhale. will tell you a little bit about how. stressed you are. When you're stressed, you tend to blow off carbon dioxide very. quickly. And when you're less stressed, it tends to shift towards long exhales. become easier. So one of the groups, and.

then I'll say what the mechanism is, did. cyclic hyperventilation. Some people call this Wimhof breathing, tumo breathing, pranayyama breathing. It's big inhales, passive exhales. Repeat it for five. minutes. [snorts]. [sighs]. Massively spikes adrenaline, which isn't. a bad thing. You're controlling it. anyway. Does not spike cortisol very. much, incidentally. And when you do those exhales, you're. blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide, so. it shifts your internal state and tends. to make people very alert. or they did.

there was a fourth condition where they. did a double inhale long exhale repeat. the so-called physiological sigh. So. Jack Feldman at UCLA and some other. folks in the 30 1930s had observed that. animals and people when they're very. relaxed would do this kind of strange. pattern of breathing where they would go. [sighs]. [gasps]. it's a double inhale long exhale. Jack's lab discovers there's a brain. area called the parapacial nucleus which.

is specifically there to generate this. double inhale exhale pattern in animals. and in humans wild nature doesn't make. mistakes like that okay turns out there. are two breathing centers one is in. called the pre-bot singer complex named. after a bottle of wine [gasps]. pattern of breathing where you inhale. exhale what that you alternate this. other structure the parapacial nucleus. which we all have is involved in anytime. you double up the inhales or exhales. And it's involved in breathing while you.

speak or sing or eat. And it generates. these physiological size which it turns. out get triggered in environments where. there's not enough oxygen or when you. get claustrophobic or when you get very. stressed, carbon dioxide goes up. Your. brain senses that and it triggers the. gas reflex. That double inhale maximally. inflates the millions, hundreds of. millions of little sacks in the lungs. And then when you exhale, you offload. the greatest amount of carbon dioxide.

So if you just go, you're not offloading as much carbon. dioxide. But if you [snorts]. [sighs and gasps]. second short inhale. takes these little sacks in your lungs, which are like balloons at a kids party, and they're empty, but they're fluid. lined on the so there's some surface. tension inside them. they're sticking. together. So, you go, it's the double. inhale that opens those up and then you. offload the carbon dioxide. Now, that's. great. But the real magic of deliberate.

long exhales is that they slow your. heart rate down through a process called. respiratory sinus arrhythmia. This is. like the most important thing for anyone. exed stress, exercise, sleep, and. wellness because the wild thing is we. have this Vegas nerve. Everyone likes. talk about the vagus nerve. It's a. massive nerve bundle that collects. sensory information and chemical. information from the organs of the body. and sends it up to the brain. Cool. And. it's classified as parasympathetic.

calming. But you know what's funny? Neuroscientists when they want to wake. up and a person during an experiment. like a neurosurgery experiment, they. stimulate the vagus. A treatment for for. depression is to stimulate the Vegas. Guess what that does? makes people more. alert. So, it's a mixed nerve. But the. really cool part about the vagus is that. it's not all ascending. The 85% of the information is going up. from the body through the vagus. But. there's another pathway too and it goes.

down and it goes down to your heart and. it controls the slowing of the heart. rate when you exhale. Heart rate. variability is the slowing of your heart. rate when you exhale. You want to increase your HRV, do a few. deliberate exhales during the day. People go, "How do I get my HRV up?". Well, yeah, you do some V2 max training, right? Like, you know, obviously you do. some max heart rate training, some HIT. workouts, etc. You really want to.

increase your HRV in sleep and while. waking, just do some deliberate exhales. during the day because that's the. parasympathetic, the calming arm of the. Vegas pushing down. on your heart rate. And all of the. groups I described saw benefits, but it. was the people who did these. physiological size that benefited the. most. So then I started exploring, well, how fast does heart rate slow down with. physiological size? And it turns out you. don't need to do it for 5 minutes. Do it. once. You just go, "Okay, you're feeling. stressed. You're going on stage. You're.

waiting for a diagnosis. You're you. don't feel you feel too alert relative. to how you want to feel for whatever. reason, good or bad. You're about to get. married, right? You whatever. >> You just. [sighs]. [gasps]. until your lungs are empty and it's. immediate.". And I for me that was immensely. gratifying. Yes. Because it's fun to. publish papers. if we publish it and. sell reports and Meliss gets let's the. lion share the credit for that there.

were other people on the paper but she. did so much hard work from that and. analysis I was so gratified because I'm. like ah finally like if I didn't sleep. well or if I something stressful even. though I slept well I can calm myself. down like like that. >> I thought real time tools for stress are. what we all need the interesting thing. is that you can also raise your stress. threshold and a lot of the stress. mitigation chapter is also about how to. do that we need to train for discomfort. so that the little things don't feel so.

big. >> Yeah, >> this is also important in survival. situations, right? You need to be able. to think very clearly about what order. of operations to take, what direction to. escape through. This is not about like. setting yourself to tolerate more pain. and abuse. This is about the exact. opposite. So, this is about safety. This. is about self-p protection. And this is. about noticing when you're when we're. alert but calm. We can notice the subtle. ripples in people around us who needs. [clears throat] our attention who we. really don't like.

>> but we never really realized it. You can. notice that stuff. >> A lot of people they wake up at like 2. 3:00 a.m. in the morning. >> Yeah. >> In the middle of the night and they. don't really know why. They don't know. how to get back to bed. They start. worrying and remuner remunerating. >> Very very common. >> Yeah. So what they can use this as a. tool in that moment. >> definitely 10 long long deliberate. exhales. There's also this really crazy. trick that I put in the book has. indirect scientific support. You want it. like best way to fall back asleep. You. want to hear this crazy this is so nuts. To fall asleep or to fall back asleep, you need to stop thinking about your.

body position. H turns out there's a. direct relationship through a few steps, but there's a dedicated circuit I should. say between your eyes, their movements, and your cerebellum, which is involved. in propriception and balance and a. number of other things. We call we call. the cerebellum the mini brain, but it's. this this guy back here. We really get. nerdy. These hyperfoliated loes back. here. Foliators are just folds. It's. just nerd speak for foldy bumpy. It's. involved in balance. It's involved in.

learning. It's actually very important. for generating and responding to the. error signals between what you're trying. to do and what you can do. That error. signal turns out to be one of the most. important things for generating learning. to make errors through genuine attempts. And your cerebellum is critical for. that. It's also involved in timing. So, you need to kind of turn off your. recognition of your own limbs to fall. asleep. How do you do that? You know. what works with babies? Walk back and. forth at a particular pace. And this was. defined in this Japanese study. And have.

people swing the baby back and forth. just gently as they do it. And the baby. falls asleep. Guess what? Parents figure. out the exact cadence with a very small. margin of error through trial and error. to figure out how to get their kid to. sleep. It's like a natural experiment. It's been looked at in the lab. >> Turns out when you rock back and forth, your eyes move. This is a very, very. ancient system that exists in all jawed. animals, including us, that as we move. through space, walking, running,

swimming, whatever. The world is gliding. by, what we call optic flow. You would. see the world blurry. But you have a. compensatory eye movement that. unbeknownst to you because of a. connection between your eyes and these. brain stem areas whose names aren't. important right now and your cerebellum. creates a visual slip error and your. eyes automatically offset that error. So. when I go like this, the world seems stable. And it turns out. there's a pattern of eye movement that.

can shut down the propriceptive circuits. in the cerebellum make you forget your. limb position and it greatly facilitates. the speed at which you fall back asleep. >> Okay. You're going to close your eyes. Great. You're going to move your eyes. slowly to one side underneath your. eyelids, then to the other side. >> Mhm. >> Then up, then down. Now you're going to. move them counterclockwise in a. circleish. and then clockwise in a circleish. And.

now still with your eyes closed, you're. going to kind of point them towards your. nostrils. You're not going to cross your. eyes and you're going to do a long. exhale. Great. That done two or three times. generally has people waking up the next. morning and like wild. What happens? What happened is your propriceptive. circuits are shut down. Now, that's kind. of fun to do and you'll see and it costs. nothing and it generally works. Some. people, if they're really, really. stressed, it might not work, but this is. what I do if I wake up in the middle of. the night. I usually go to the bathroom,

get back in bed, do long exhale. breathing, and I do that and I wake up. the next morning. It really works well. So well, in fact, that there's a company. based on work done from two MIT. scientists. They have a sleep mask that. generates this pattern of eye movements. through a little electrode behind the. ear. It just like and it stimulates the. extraocular muscles in just the right. patterns. And I tried it and you fall. right asleep. >> You're joking. >> No.

>> And it monitors REM. >> No, you know, we monitor REM through. like an eight sleep or a Whoop or some. other device through changes in heart. rate and breathing. This is direct. monitoring of REM. It's wild. And it can control your eye. movements to induce more REM if you want. more REM. There will be a time very soon. like within the next 12 to 14 months. when because of devices like the one. they and others are making when you're. going to be able to say, you know what, I want 2 hours of deep sleep. I want 2.

hours of REM across a 6-hour night. because I can't afford to sleep my. ration of eight. And you will be. generating those eye movements during. sleep in order to facilitate, not force, but facilitate those patterns of sleep. I've spent the last decade building and. investing in companies. And so often the. conversation around marketing budgets. follows the exact same pattern. The. budget gets approved, but then the. results don't come back. And most of the. time, the creative pitch and the offer. is fine. The problem lies with the. audience. Ads reach people who will.

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at linkedin.com/diary. And if you spend $250 on your first. campaign, you'll get a $250 credit for. your next one just by going to. linkedin.com/diary. Keep this to yourself. Terms and. conditions apply. I want to speak to the. business owners listening and watching. right now. I know what it's like to be. personally responsible for every. decision. I founded my first company at. 21 years old and honestly the pressure. can be immense. It's the kind of mental. load that takes its toll below the. surface. I recently did some tests.

through our sponsor function which got. me thinking about that invisible impact. I found that I had low levels of. omega-3s. I had deficient levels of. vitamin D probably because I sit inside. this dark room all day. And that has. totally changed how I construct my day. going forward. I get up in the morning. and the first thing I now do is I go for. a walk outside in the sunshine. in part. to help my vitamin D levels increase, but also because it helps to reset my. circadian rhythm. With Function, you can. check your brain health, your aging, your stress, and so much more. They.

provide over 160 lab tests for what is. equal to a dollar a day and member. pricing on advanced imaging. Head to. functionalth.com/doac. to join and use code DOAC25. for a $25 credit. Did I hear you say. that there's a peptide that can help. your REM sleep? Yes, I have no. affiliation to to it because um it's. called pinealon. I I will tell you in. the book I do not talk about hormone. therapies, peptides or psychedelics. The book is about what I know for sure.

Hormones, peptide therapies and. psychedelics are at the front edge right. now. I'm very much involved in. looking at the research, talking to the. people that are doing these things. And. yes, I I dabble in these things, right? I'm very interested. I experiment on. myself and I'm an adult. I can do that. So, pinealon is very interesting because. I found that if I took an itty bitty bit. every third night, I tried this. experiment for about a month. I got. massive amounts of REM sleep that night,

but also on subsequent nights. I hosted. a Dr. Abud Bakri on my podcast who's in. my view is the most knowledgeable. physician on the topic of peptides. >> Oh, I saw that episode. It's amazing. >> He's amazing. And I think you guys would. have an even better conversation, frankly. But in any event, he tells me. that pinealon is potentially involved. There are some data supporting its use. for encouraging pinealy health. So the. actual health of the pineal pineal. gland. >> Yeah. The pineal gland which makes.

melatonin and it does other things too. So I think pinealon is a great tool to. use sporadically. I don't use it. regularly. You know as long as we're. talking about peptides I do think that. there's I mean I'm peptide curious is. you know I'm from the Bay Area called. peptide [laughter] curious. I have not. tried any GLPS yet, but I'm getting. curious about very very low dose. tepatide or reatrite. >> I'm peptide curious, but I'm scared. >> Yeah, >> I'm scared because I don't You've got to. inject most of them, right? >> It's a tiny little thing, you know. Um, >> what's your take on peptides as like a c.

It's a big category, isn't it? Bloody. everything seems to be a peptide these. days. >> Here's my opinion. It will be popular. with some people, unpopular with others, but. obviously as with hormone therapies or. anything else or supplements like sleep, hydration, sunlight, exercises, nutrition, like you need all that stuff. The behavioral tools are the foundation. >> Great things can happen when you build. on a foundation. Okay, things can happen when you build. on non-foundation, but it doesn't last. long. But the combination of the two can.

be pretty awesome, especially if. somebody has the means and the interest. So the GLPS. >> Mhm. >> which are the weight loss drugs. >> The weight loss drugs. I think Redat. True Tide is amazing. It's not just a. GLP. It also hits the glucagon and GIP. pathway. This is the one that Lily. invested. Eli Lily invested hundreds of. millions of dollars if not more into. researching and it's went through phase. three. People lost onethird. approximately of their body weight in. about a year or so. >> Is that a is that a good thing for. everybody? >> No. So what's happening is people are.

Okay. So the psychedelic. community talked about micro doing. >> that micro doing phrase has been now. incorporated into GLPs and people. realized they could bypass a lot of the. side effects and the cost by micro doing. GLPs. These are anecdotes so I want to. be clear and I'm not pushing peptides or. selling peptides. I say quite. comfortably. I have a friend who's very. very skeptical about anything that's not. fully FDA approved. I don't want to hear. about your biohacking nonsense. this.

kind of thing, but she has chronic. fatigue syndrome. And she talked to me. about like what can I do? She's seen all. these physicians. Mind you, these are. physicians at Stanford. These are. physicians at UCSF. Like she's and she's. a very smart, nuanced person, but she. has a wall there. She's started taking a very low, very. low dose of tratide once every 10 days. >> And trite is. >> it's one of the GLP drugs. So we could. talk about Mjarompic, but it's it's not. >> it's not touching GIP or glucagon. It's.

mainly just increasing levels of of. glucagon like peptide which is this. thing that suppresses hunger and. appetite but also seems to lower. inflammation. Yes, there are concerns. about vision loss in people who have. certain structural abnormalities of the. eye. Yes, there are concerns about. apathy if people take too much of them. You know, it seems to reduce alcohol. craving for people that like alcohol. >> and sugar craving more generally. And it. can reduce craving for everything if you. take enough of it. >> Yeah. Keep in mind these drugs are. ramping up levels of GLP a thousandfold. or more. Thousandfold or more. The body.

has never seen this level of of glucagon. like peptide in the history of humans. And remember this whole thing was. discovered because a smart biologist was. studying why helila monsters, these. reptiles that I think are ugly, he. probably thinks they're beautiful, only. have to eat a couple times a year. It's. because they make a peptide called. extendin which turns out to be. homologous to glucagon like peptide one. in humans. The reason these reptiles. don't have to eat very often is because. they always feel satiated. Why? Because. they have very high levels of glucagon.

like peptide circulating. We don't. And. it works through two mechanisms. Tells. the brain mechanisms for satiety to ramp. up their activity. And so your brain is. telling you, I don't really want food. And it also makes people feel full, which is the basis of some of the side. effects of nausea and other things. So. she will tell you, oh my god, my. energy's back. My inflammation markers. are way lower. I I'm not cured, but I. feel so much better. Very, very hard to. dispute that kind of experience if.

you're the patient. We could talk about. safety and sourcing and, you know, etc. But anyway, so people are starting to. realize they can micro dose stuff, but. you won't see randomized control trials. that are going to push this kind of. notion. You can tell it's terrible for. business, right? >> So then there are things like pinealon. for sleep, epalon perhaps for DNA. repair. I haven't dabbled with that one. yet. And then there are the so-called. growth hormone secrets. So we're talking. about tessamellin, hypermearin, cjc1 uh. 1295. These will promote more growth.

hormone release and sleep. They will. have a negative feedback effect where. they're going to shut down some of your. own production and people get a bit. leaner and they claim their deep sleep. is better and it can increase insulin. sensitivity. I'll tell you, I've tried. serellin. I've tried a few of these. other ones. They nuke my REM sleep. They. give me a ton of deep sleep. I don't. like them. I've tried pineal and I'll. take it now and again. I don't do it. right now. And BPC is the one that gets. everybody talking because body.

protection compound 157 is made in the. gut. People claim, and I do think their. claims are accurate, that they feel, notice what I said right there, is they. feel as if their recovery from injury. was accelerated. And I believe them. because I've spent a lot of time with. the animal data whether it's an Achilles. tendon transsection or nerve regrowth or. or tendon or ligament regrowth and. vascular. Yes, it does seem to. accelerate healing across the board. But. the concern is you could vascularize. tumors. Now. would I take it? No, I don't have an.

injury right now. I don't have any. reason to take it. So I don't think. people should say should I take. peptides. You should ask what effect in. your life are you trying to achieve? Right? And then maybe BPC makes sense. Maybe it doesn't. You're not going to. find many clinical trials on it. It has. a very very high maybe infinite, you. know, LD50, meaning no one has really. figured out how much can kill you. But. that's not a good kind of way to run. your life. And. you know, it's somewhere between a drug. and a supplement.

>> I think this is one of the concerns or. one of the conversations I often hear. around JLPs at the moment is that. they've just not been long around long. enough for us to know the side effect. profile over a long period of time. Is. there any truth to that? Well, do you want to be in the. experiment or out of the you want to be. in the control group or you want to be. in the experimental group? Well, for. somebody who has like serious obesity. issues, the tepatides and mjaros and. ompics and reatride could potentially. save their life. Okay. Vision loss is a. serious consideration. Although, I'll go. on record, you know, vision is my home.

and I'll just be direct. I don't tap. dance at all and I'm not trying to start. any battles and David and I can talk. about it uh directly. David Sinclair. recently went on Rogan and said, you. know, the amount of of blindness caused. by GLPs has doubled which scared. everybody. >> I heard that. >> But there's a structural abnormality in. the eye of a subset of people for whom. that's true. And it's a great idea to. get your eyes scanned. But yeah, so as. the ah comes apart. >> Yeah. >> Oh man, this is fun. It's a good thing. only come on here every once in a while.

because I do this I do this all day. every day. So you know, light obviously. comes in. You got that cornea on the. outside of the eye and the lens focuses. the the light onto your retina which is. this. pie crust like structure that lines the. back of your eyes. It's an amazing. structure you know three cell layers. thick catches light absorbs light. The. photo receptors turn that into. electricity through photo transduction. Amazing. Then that electricity is cast. forward to a set of cells that line the. inner part of the retina that we call.

retinal ganglion cells. And then they. send their wires, their so-called axons. out the optic nerve into your brain. They course along the bottom of the. brain and they enter your brain, including your circadian clock. You get. vision, you get sleepwake rhythms, you. get hormone regulation by light. You get. it's just incredible. Well, where they. exit the eye is called the optic nerve. head. And if the optic nerve head is a. nice nicely shaped and sized tube for. them to exit, great. Too big, that's not.

good. But too tight's not good either. because those wires get pinched off. This is part of what happens in the. disease glaucoma which is the eye. pressure goes up and those axons die. away. These cells die away and people. it's the second leading cause of. blindness in the world. So in some. people who have a structural. abnormality, a structural feature of the. optic nerve head here where these these. wires leave the eye, it does seem that. the GLPS put them at greater risk for. causing some cinching off of those of.

those cells and and there have been. cases of blindness. But the thing that. wasn't really cool, David, is this. He. is developing some very potentially. impressive tools to rescue vision in. glaucoma, etc. But meanwhile, GLPS are. not making many people go blind. Okay? You know, that's about as true as. masturbation is making people go blind. I'm not saying you should do either one. That's your personal choice. But the. point here is that he scared the. daylights out of people, pun intended,

telling them that they can make you go. blind. But everyone should get this area. of their eye image. And it turns out. it's very easy. You can go to your. opthalmologist or optometrist, ask for. an eye pressure test. Usually insurance. covers it, but definitely worth paying. for. >> That was number five. >> Number five, >> we got into peptides. Yeah. >> Yeah. We've done a question. >> Good thing we're not talking about. psychedelics. We'll do that another. time. We won't do them another time. Um. I don't do psychedelics publicly. >> Listen, I'm open-minded. I did DM. I. don't care. >> Not as openminded as you be if we do.

psychedelics. No. >> True. >> Uh you took you took DMT. >> in a far away land where it was very. legal cuz you know, I sit here and talk. about these things and psychedelics. And. I actually did work in a psychedelics. company for about a year. But it was. deeply deeply fascinating. And I the. reason I was compelled by it is the. efficacy as it relates to mental health. and the studies being done out of London. >> around things like, you know, psilocybin. and ibeane and. >> DMT treatments. And I just thought, wow, you know, it's unbelievable some of the. clinical data. I'd love to learn more. So I did a psilocybin and then I did DMT.

and it was really just. >> I've not done DMT. >> You've never done DMT? >> No. No. I've done um clinical um MDMA. and psilocybin. I think I'm done with. that. Not because I had a negative. experience, but I got what I wanted out. of it and um I found it to be immensely. beneficial. >> The combination of therapy going in, therapy during and therapy coming out of. of combination MDMAs psilocybin. >> Do you know what it it's one of the. things that made me think a lot about. religion? >> Mhm. [clears throat] was having a DMT.

experience where what I experienced felt. indistinguishable from this reality in. terms of the vividness and the the. realness of it and me just pondering. this this concept that a tiny little. inhale of smoke could completely change. my material reality. So therefore I. concluded that my material reality is is. literally but I mean tell me if my. logic's wrong is a small amount of. chemicals being uninterrupted. Does that. make logical sense? >> Yeah. So I I think about this way too. much. I guess we are going to talk about. psychedelics, [laughter] reality and.

religion. Um couple short statements. about this. You're I fascinated by this. I'd love to hear you talk more about it. But here are a couple ways that I think. about it in a non um dismissive way. Most all of biology is just. compartmentalized chemistry. So whether. or not it's the flow of electricity. along neural circuits to generate. tenacity for instance or learning, you're just guiding chemistry in. particular ways. Okay, that's not a way. to trivialize it. It's kind of a way to. think about it. There are two ways that.

you can change brain function, behavior, and chemistry. One is mechanical. I can breathe differently. I can get a. massage, right? I could poke myself with. a knife. Okay? So, there are mechanical. forces that change our physiology. And. then there are chemical forces, pharmarmacology, things we eat, and. chemicals within us, serotonin, etc. That's really it. There's no other. thing. In many ways, you're absolutely. right. It's compartmentalized chemistry. and mechanics and other chemicals are.

what control that chemistry. And. I think organizing one's thoughts. sometimes in that way can be helpful. because you realize the stress response. is really just a bunch of chemicals. happening in certain places and so on. I. personally am intrigued about the idea. of things outside of our conscious. understanding in biology that maybe. things like DMT give us access to or. maybe just prayer gives us access to or. faith gives us access to. And it comes. from my recognition both as a.

neuroscientist and just a human who's. been alive for 50 years and some change. that our biology and psychology, let's. mold those together, are. extraordinarily good at accomplishing. certain things. But there are certain things that are. outside the abilities of our psychology. and biology. And if we are asking our. psychology and biology to satisfy.

something that our psychology and. biology simply cannot satisfy, we're. going to miss out on a lot of potential. meaning in life. And what I to be very. direct about it like at the point where. I decide to really embrace the idea of. faith of a god, right? That there are. powers outside of human understanding. that can be very useful. everything got better. It It relieved me. of the pressure to control everything. internally and externally. And I find it.

not just intriguing, but absolutely. captivating that. a force outside of us, some people call. it God, the universe, right? Some people. might think it's Jesus. Some people. might think it's something else might. actually hold some power in how we could. potentially behave, be better, be. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there's this. thing planted in us or some of us, which. is a question about things outside of us.

that if we were to embrace. could allow us to get to a better place. as a species? Why would we think that a. a technology like AI would do that? AI. is wonderful, but why would we think. that it would come from computers? That's of us, right? Why would we think. it would come from anything that humans. and only humans could do? To me, the. embracing the notion of a God and having. faith, which by the way is about having. doubt, but still doing the the things, the practices, prayer is like to me one.

of the most liberating and educating. thing not just about stuff of God in the. universe, but about the human brain. Okay, I've got some questions. >> Yeah, I mean it's like we're not meant. to solve this on our own. >> Do you believe in God? >> Absolutely. >> When did God come into your life? >> Very early, but I was very. good at suppressing the notion that it. was real. Like I would pray in private.

I would hide it and um and not just in. bad times. And then I think I lived. enough and observed enough hardship. We've talked about some of this on a. previous podcast. I talk a little bit. about that in the book, but but I. observed it out there, too, not just in. my own life that I I started to realize, especially if you stick your hands in. enough brains. And you see my good. friend Eddie Chang record from the brain. of a awake human and remove a tumor and. save that person's life. And you also. realize that brain areas are controlling.

things because when they're stimulated, that person feels and responds in a. certain way. You realize that we're not. all meat and potatoes in there. there's. something. else. But I'm not sure that it all comes. from us. It's it's sort of hard to. explain. The the best way I kind of. wriggle out of this is that I I brought. my dad on my podcast. My dad and I for. many years had a choppy relationship. We. have a great relationship now. He's 83. years old. He's super vigorous. He loves. ideas. He's into quantum, you know,

quantum computing. And he he's a. theoretical physicist, right? And I. asked him to explain quantum mechanics. I go, "Okay, like tell my audience how. relativity works." He worked on chaos. theory. Okay, tell us how chaos works. And he said, "I'll do that, but you have. to understand that one of the most. important things about understanding. quantum mechanics is that early on you. are told and you learn that the human. brain can't wrap its head around quantum. mechanics with logic, with the with.

human understanding. You have to rely on. the math." And he says anyone who talks. about the quantum field who can't show. you the math, can't show you the proofs, is lying. He loves it when people are. like, "Oh, the quantum this and the. quantum that is often is in like the. meditative communities, but others too.". And he goes, "People throw this word. around because very few people actually. understand quantum biology. There's gaps. in there's some logic, but there's gaps. in their logic that the math doesn't. line up with. >> And the math doesn't lie." So what he. was saying and we were having a. discussion about God and he said yeah at.

some point if you're going to have faith. in a higher power God you have to depart. this notion that your logical brain can. go from A to B to C and boom you're. there but in quantum mechanics it's the. same thing but on the basis of quantum. mechanics you can build stuff you can. engineer stuff in the real world like. that red light or a rocket. >> are you saying but you don't know all of. this. >> there's no math to prove this thing that. I call my the existence of God. There's. no math and it's not worth torturing.

yourself over. What I believe is worth. torturing yourself over. And there's. also great beauty in there is embracing. the practice of prayer, embracing the. questions and the like opening the. aperture of your beliefs just for a. moment going maybe I'm going to just. believe in God for 10 seconds. >> See what that's like. And I started to. experience beauty and experience um. peace around not trying to control. things that obviously were not under my. control, not just within me, but in.

other people. And I really started to. see what I could only describe as. miracles. And by miracles, I mean I. would pray for some indication of what. the right path might be on something. where it wasn't clear to me. And then. two or three days later something would. happen which would like seem almost. completely unrelated and the answer. would come in that thing. And then I. just locked in. I'm like listen I'm a. disciplined guy when I really want to. be. I'm going to pray every night before.

I go to sleep. If I fall asleep I'll get. out of bed and pray when I if I wake up. in the middle of the night. I've not. missed a night in nearly 3 years. I was. recently invited up to Stanford to give. a talk with Arthur Brooks who's a. lifetime Catholic. He's in mass every. morning. You know, he and I have very. different experiences of God and. religion. My family was mixed religion. I got to sit up there and just say, "Listen, I'm gonna tell you that I for. sure am the person who's least. knowledgeable, least versed in this. room. But what I can tell you is my. experience with prayer. What I can tell. you is what I've observed in myself when.

I open the aperture for faith. The. reason I did that talk is because our. former director of neurosciences at. Stanford um had written to me and said, 'I think you should consider talking to. this group. And he did some of the most. important experiments in the history of. neuroscience linking neuronal activity. to perception. He really showed that if. you stimulate certain brain areas, people perceive things a certain way. regardless of what's happening out in. the world. Mhm. >> Like there's a brain area I could. trigger right now and I could show you a. movie of a bunch of dots moving up and.

everyone here would be like, "They're. moving up." And if I tickled the right. neuron in your brain, you'd say, "They're going down." And like that's. wild. Then I turn it off and you say, "Oh yeah, of course they're going up.". Your understanding of the world is an. abstraction. that occurs inside your skull on the. basis of photons that come in through. your eyes, sound waves that hit your. ears, mechanical forces that hit your. skin, and chemicals that go in your. nostrils and in your mouth. And then you. create you abstract reality in here.

Now, the laws of physics dictate how. those things like photons have. properties, sound waves have properties, and those are converted. they're. transformed into signals. But then you. abstract the world with enough. accuracies that I can pick up this pen, >> okay, and not miss it, at least for now. So. if you understand neuroscience that way, and then you go, we don't see infrared. in this room because we don't have the. sensors, >> but a pit viper does, does that mean.

that there's a god? No, not necessarily. That alone doesn't prove that. But what. it does prove is that we only have. access to the physical events in the. world that we have the filters within us. to extract which is a kind of. mealymouthed way of saying you can't see. it cuz you can't see it. >> You don't have the sensors. You can. throw on infrared goggles and then you. can see it. But that's a technology. there. I don't think there will ever be. the god goggles. The emotional goggles.

so to speak come from this thing that we. call faith. Faith is the infrared. goggles of of human understanding about. why we're here. And the the challenge. for people is I feel like people come in. three categories. They they either at. least three. They either would force. religion in a bad way so they hate it. They never had access to it in a way. that made them gently pulled toward it. or you know they were like it was like. people knocking on their door. It felt.

like a disturbance. And I, you know, I'm. not against proilitizing if it's done. kindly and with, you know, delicately. Or they are absolutely convinced that it. can't be, which I look at as sort of a. spiritual anorexia. You know, there are. regions of the brain that when. stimulated, people get a godlike exper. the experience of God, not as. themselves, but they feel it. You had. this idea. And so people have said, "Oh, well then there's a God region of the. brain, and it's just a brain region. It's just a brain region. That can't. be." But we have brain regions. Arthur.

says this much more eloquently than I. could. There are brain regions for. thirst which in the philosophical. way again this is coming from him not me. would say well that proves the existence. of water. The thirst proves the. existence of water right. So I have a. thirst circuit for gaining understanding. of this thing that we call life and. whatever comes after it. And in that. thirst, I decided to open the aperture.

to the idea that it's that the thing, the stimulus, the water, the photons, I'm not able to extract that through. thought, through my eyes, through my. ears. Just like my dad couldn't come to. understand quantum mechanics by thinking. really hard about it, you have to do the. math. And there are gaps in the in my. reasoning here. Like it's not a perfect. one to one, but also life's just so much. better, man. I don't think anxiety. sticks in us very long. If we we're. feeling anxious, he pray God please like.

help me remove help me remove this. It's. not do this for me. It's help me. put energy in me to do the right things. today. Put energy in me to serve people. I prayed before I came in here. >> on get on my knees before every podcast. guest or host and I prayed. I prayed for. I just said please help me move my ego. out of the room. We all have an ego. help me move my ego out of the room. I I. would hope that people could learn. useful information that might help them. and that they would propagate that.

information. Please make sure that I. maintain humility, maintain like help me. help me strive for clarity and I also. said and help Stephen and I do something. that we're not predicting that would. happen but you want us to happen that we. don't understand. And maybe that's this. part of the conversation, [laughter]. right? Like you know, I don't know. And. the point is not to know. It's also fun. as a scientist who loves mechanisms and. cells and circuits and neurom modulators. and it's enriching to have a part of. life that like I can just.

explore in like it's I like mysteries. like science is about mysteries and it's. about solving mysteries but it's also. about being in awe of the the mystery. and um I'm all in man. I mean I'm. different allin than. other people talk about being allin and. I don't tell people what to do morally. I'm I'm really just trying to navigate. my own my own path. But it is uh it's. like one of the best things that ever. happened to me. It's so liberating and.

life is still plenty hard. But I love. it. >> It seems to be an antidote that a lot of. people are reaching for now based on the. way that we've kind of designed our. lives over the last couple of decades. the sort of individualism, the. loneliness, the I don't know nihilism, the me me, the material success, the you. could say like low-level narcissism of. being on social media and trying to get. as many followers as you can. And we've. become islands. And I I've been thinking. a lot about this idea of like God and.

meaning because it does appear to me. that we are meant to be like anchored. to, you know, ourselves and our family. and then like, I don't know, our. community and then maybe our city and. then maybe our country and then maybe. the planet and then something above. >> I mean, you're an ambitious guy. Go. bigger, man. I'm not trying to push you. like No, no, please. >> Bigger. The biggest thing is that the. that is a nonhuman force in the universe. that wants goodness. and can exemplify perfection.

and you and I if I may by virtue of. being human by virtue of having circuits. that I mean the famous studies like. people get to stimulate different areas. of their brain you know the area that. people like to stimulate a lot the area. that generates frustration and anger. that arousal I saw that result and I was. like oh man that's disappointing why not. beauty, giddiness or even feelings of. being drunk. Though they found that too, but they were not as interested in that. You know, are we bad? No, we're not bad. We we are wired with an animal part of.

our brain and we are wired with a. conscious thoughtful part of our brain. And it's a lot of work to ascend. I know. that word is like it in the looks maxing. thing now but like it's a to ascend as a. human to a place where you're living in. a controlled and thoughtful and peaceful. way with yourself and with your pursuits. and you're putting trying striving to. put goodness in the world and take care. of people and and to do that uh with a.

little less friction. I know from. experience that comes from trying not to. control every aspect of every process. and somehow everything just goes much. better. So, you know, people will be. like, "Oh, he really drank the. Kool-Aid." Like, I don't know. I I. actually think that this was pumping in. my veins from go. Yes, I worked on a lot. of topics um stress, vision, etc. But I. studied neural development for a long. time and you know sperm meets egg and.

cells start dividing and you get a human. and um yes we understand induction. factors. I teach developmental robotics. cell migration axon guidance you know. misoderm ectoerm etc. Great. Like compartmentalized chemistry. can give you a human, but there are gaps. in our understanding and there's magic. in that orchestration that goes beyond. what the science can even begin to.

understand. And it's nothing short of. spectacular. You just like also who. doesn't want more awe in their life? It's like Dr. Kelner is like the the awe. guy at Berkeley like he said. Yeah. Awe. is when you go from small aperture to. big aperture and from big aperture to. small aperture. That transition induces. awe and you can hear it in sound too. Like when you walk in off the street and. you go into like Stanford has this. incredible church. Memorial church is. unbelievably beautiful with this giant.

organ and you walk in there and people. change. Not just because it's a you like. there's this high ceiling and you're. like wow like this is incredible. Of. course, I know humans made it. Like I'm. not an idiot, but. day aperture to. holy aperture. The like these and you. can get this other ways, right? I'm not. saying you can't get this other ways, but I like the idea that if we dial out. really far. >> that there's something much greater than. us. And and I don't know what it exactly.

what form it takes or exactly what shape. it takes or exactly what ways that it um. God would exert. uh influence over our minds. But. >> you don't need to. >> you don't need to. >> This is the thing that I have to I think. I have to come to terms with is I I go, okay, this is really interesting. There's lots of meaning and benefits to. my life. You know, if we're just. thinking about benefits, right? And then. I go, okay, so which which Bible have I. got to believe? And then I start looking. at the Bibles and I'm like, "Okay, Noah's arc.". >> Look at a bunch of them. I think one.

will call to you more than the others. Listen, it may end up being atheism for. some people. But when I said um when I. said spiritual anorexia earlier, anorexia is the most deadly of the. psychiatric illnesses. It's like it's incredibly deadly. And. it's a something happens to the neural. circuits where people with true anorexia. feel reward some sort of sense of quote. unquote reinforcement is better than. reward. Reinforcement from avoiding food. as opposed to eating it. So that's very. like runs against our evolution as a.

species, right? And our health. But the. desire for food, as Arthur would say, proves the existence of food, right? The. desire of thirst proves the existence of. water. And there are atheists who are. like, "Yeah, I don't need it. Not for. me." And then there are atheists who are. who have a kind of spiritual anorexia. It's almost like they get their. spirituality is not believing in a god. And I look at them and I go, "Well, you're kind of on the like the same like. extreme. It's almost like it wraps.

around so far that you you the the truly. religious people and the atheists kind. of meet right here. They both have the. same sort of thing, but there's kind of. an inversion of the circuit right there. And so I don't know someone will work. out the neuroscience or not. I'm going. to keep praying because my life is that. much better. >> When you when I heard you talk about it, I started praying a little bit. >> Oh, right on. >> Not all the time, but there there's. several moments where I thought, do you. know what? Now would be a good time to. just pray. And someone like you saying. that you do it gives a lot of other. people permission to try and to.

investigate for themselves because you. know you like if I'm in the human camp. maybe I'm someone that really cares. about scientific rigor and precision and. and then if you if that if you change. that camp to also be open-minded to. spirituality and religion and these sort. of other pursuits I can still [laughter]. be sort of ideologically who I believe I. am while also investigating these other. things. So when I it was really. impactful for me to hear you talk about. prayer because it impacted my. >> it gave me permission I should say at. some weird level to also investigate and.

yeah like I report the same findings as. you that. >> it helps. [laughter]. >> Yeah it helps. My former chair and. director of neurosciences at Stanford. who encouraged me to do that talk at. Veraritoss where I mostly talked about. how ignorant and naive I am on these. topics. He's a brilliant neuroscientist. He has faith. >> and I respect him and I respect his. mind. I also think there's maybe a kind. of fun analogy here that just came to. mind. You know, it happens in every. dimension like audience and podcasters. or but this happened during the pandemic.

with the with the health community and. we're seeing the the long tale of that. now. But you know, when you're a kid, you think your parents are everything. you think they can do no wrong and then. there's this thing called being an. adolescent teenager and you catch them. doing like lying or saying things. occasionally or doing things you go wait. you said that and and it's like this and. all of a sudden you're like you don't. know anything. >> then you gain some hopefully some agency. and some philosophy in life and you get.

to this point where you think you know. everything and you accept that they. don't but you're really the one that. understands. I think that as adults, we eventually. get to the place after that where we go, "Oh, wait. It's outside of me. I'm got. to look outside of me." And then you go, "No, every like all these adults, we. were all they went through it and we. went through it." And the real like it's. going, "Oh, wait. No, no. I'm looking at. humans for something that doesn't isn't. going to come from human beings. We're. all flawed. We're all we're all.

imperfect." And so the the notion the. belief that there's the perfection. exists outside us and that we can strive. for certain things through works through. practices. that's not just compelling that's just. like downright fantastic to me because. it you fully embrace the the woes and. the the beauty of being human in. embracing God. It's kind of a weird. thing. So listen, more power to the. atheists if they if they can pull it off. without all that. Great. But you know,

meanwhile, I'm going to keep at it. >> Amen. >> This is something that I've made for. you. I realize that the DEO audience are. striv. goals that we want to accomplish. And. one of the things I've learned is that. when you aim at the big big goal, it can. feel incredibly psychologically. uncomfortable because it's kind of like. being stood at the foot of Mount Everest. and looking upwards. The way to. accomplish your goals is by breaking. them down into tiny small steps. And we.

call this in our team the 1%. And. actually this philosophy is highly. responsible for much of our success. here. So what we've done so that you at. home can accomplish any big goal that. you have is we've made these 1% diaries. and we released these last year and they. all sold out. So I asked my team over. and over again to bring the diaries back. but also to introduce some new colors. and to make some minor tweaks to the. diary. Now, we have a better range for. you. So, if you have a big goal in mind. and you need a framework and a process.

and some motivation, then I highly. recommend you get one of these diaries. before they all sell out once again. And. you can get yours at the diary.com. And if you want the link, the link is in. the description below. There should be a. button just down below here. And if it. says subscribed, you're already. subscribed. If it says subscriber, that. means you're not yet. And if you're not. subscribed, please could you do us a. favor and hit that button? It helps the. show more than you know. And according. to the algorithm, you're someone that. watches our show, but you haven't yet. hit that button. Thank you so much.

>> Okay, so we haven't done number seven. and we And what's number eight then? We. haven't done number eight. >> Yeah. >> And we haven't done. >> Well, we sort of did this. So, at night. once you're asleep, try and keep your. sleeping environment as dark as. possible. A good eye mask is useful. Some people like earplugs, too. If you. wake up in the middle of the night, do. some long exhale breathing or do the, you know, the this wacky eyes to the. side, eyes up and then, you know, counterclockwise and clockwise. So, at. night, dim the lights. Why? Bright. lights stimulate cortisol release. You. want your cortisol low at night. Everyone says, "Yeah, dim the lights to.

because it suppresses melatonin." That's. true, >> but that's just half of the story. The. other reason is it increases cortisol. and you want your cortisol low at night. >> What about this whole conversation. around phones at night? >> Yeah. And blue light. Okay. >> Dim dim your phone or or triple click. program it to the go to the red screen. Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Just do that. >> I I think in the last let's be. reasonable. The last 30 minutes before. sleep. No screens. First 30 minutes. after waking you should be looking at. the sun and exercising, hydrating, and.

doing that kind of thing. >> And chuck the partner out of the bed. I've had I've had some. >> really sleeping. They've been joking. >> I'm the opposite. I'm I'm a spooner. >> So am I. I read some studies. >> I sleep best as big spoon. Yeah, I have. no choice. I don't get Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter]. No, but I I did hear a study that, you. know, it does impact sleep, but who. cares? >> I don't know. I mean, uh the the bed. cooling thing is very helpful because I. tend to run warm. So, having another. person in there is like really warm. Like it it's like sleeping with a. >> That's so funny.

>> I don't want to diminish into a giant. hot water bottle, but she runs really. warm. So, having the cooling mattress. helps. But, okay. You really want to do. these two things. These actually go very. well together. You need to do a bout of work of 90. minutes to two hours. You like you got. to strive and try and learn something. Do something hard every day mentally. This is critical for your ability to. focus. And by the way, you you asked. about phones. Awesome study came out. They had people with their phone off. upside down on the table or in their bag. underneath their chair or in the.

opposite room, a separate room. And what. they found is people can focus just fine. in all three conditions. But if the. phone is anywhere in the room, the. amount of cognitive flexibility they. have with the material they're focusing. on is diminished. In other words, requires more energy to focus. Even if. they're not getting calls and. notifications, there's a subscript. running in the brain apparently that's. anticipating that this thing is going to. reach for me. It's going to call me. So, it's calling you even if it's not. calling you, which is pretty cool. And.

so the way to increase focus and. cognitive capacity is actually to just. get the phone out of the room. That's a. big part of it. And actually visual. field matter matters a lot too. You know. like the the kid in school with the. hoodie who's not asleep like that. actually is helpful. I talk about some. of the the history of tools for focus. pharmarmacology but also physical. devices. You know they used to design. helmets for kids to like try and focus. the kids that had troubles f problem is. now with the with the phone you've moved. the whole world right in front of you. So focusing just here doesn't work but.

get the phone out of the room and do. some effortful learning bout and it. should feel like a fight. Keep in mind. the friction you feel trying to learn. something that's adrenaline. The. remember how do we block learning? We. block adrenaline and its downstream. effects with propranolol. being alert but calm or a little. stressed and making errors through. deliberate attempts to do something, not. just throwaway errors. That's how you learn. Why? If I can.

reach out and grab this pen, my brain. doesn't change. One of the biggest lies. in public education about neuroscience. is that every experience changes your. brain. By the time I'm done saying this, your brain will be different. No, that's. absolutely not true. That's a bunch of. hoie. I studied neuroplasticity. I teach. neuroplasticity. I'll tell you, you know. what induces neuroplasticity? being a. baby who's trying to learn or being an. adult who's forcing yourself to try and. learn and you can't do the thing the. error is what stimulates the plasticity. So if you and the the appropriate level.

of difficulty say the computational. modeling is somewhere around 15% on. average. Now what does that mean? There's two kinds of practice. One is. practicing doing things I already know. how to do. There you're aiming for 100%. performance, right? You're reinforcing. what you already know how to do. talk to. a great dancer and they'll tell you they. drill drill drill drill the things they. already know how to do. But when you're. trying to learn the new language, the. new emotional skill, the new physical. skill, the new cognitive emotional. skill, you need to make genuine attempts.

and you need to fail some of the time. And those failure signals are relayed to. your cerebellum and your cerebellum. propagates through networks that say. change. >> So there's a set of conditions in the. chapter on plasticity that say you need. to be alert. So I talk about all the. ways you can get alert including. pharmarmacology supplements and. behavioral tools. Then you need to be. focused. I talk about all the tools for. focus which you can devote to anything. not just learning. And then I talk about. the conditions for plasticity and you.

need to get this friction and these. errors and then you need to stop. You. need to come back a day or two later do. it again and then you need to make sure. that you reinforce what you learned. The. beet here's where AI is going to be a. wonderful tool already is a wonderful. tool. The best way to learn is to not. forget meaning. if you test yourself mentally or you. could use any one of the LLMs but I'll. go into chat GBT and I'll just say um. generate a short test of a graduate.

student at Stanford level questions. about neuroplasticity and I and I and I. go and I remember this this is there's. this one thing I don't remember. That's. how you maintain and build knowledge. over time. Self- testing. Self- testing. People hear the word test, they think of. external tester. You're the test taker. Self- testing. >> That's a really interesting idea for. this podcast episode, which we should. definitely run. Team, >> should we generate a quiz? >> Yeah. So, we can take the transcript and. we can turn it into a a test. >> Cool. >> Of the 10 protocols that you've talked.

through and we'll link it below if you. want to take the test. >> Awesome. >> JBT is great at doing this. you can. change the difficulty and you can. actually say I'm a professor of. neuroscience and I want a 15% error rate. on average [laughter]. and it so it's pretty cool you know the. the study I love that really backs this. up is that there have been a lot of. studies of learning where they have. students read the same passage one two. three or four times and then they also. have them highlight or take notes or.

they just have them read it once and. self test and they look 6 months and two. years later reading it once no notes. notes, no highlighting and self-. testing, you know, about a week later. and looking up what you got couldn't. remember or got wrong led to much more. stable learning over time. Awesome. Now, this doesn't work so well for physical. endeavors cuz there you have to like. actually do the physical thing. You have. to test yourself physically. But I love. that set of experiments um because tells. us everything we should be doing. So, I.

think in doing this for me, it could be. a book. It could be. Lately, I've been. podcasting and recording my audio book. Have you done a a book? >> Yes. And I did the audio book, which was. horrific. >> Are you due for another one? >> I am. I've I've actually written it. already. I wrote it. I finished writing. it last year, but I. >> Oh, man. What's it about? >> It's called Just Do It. I asked. the audience multiple times what I. showed them multiple covers of books, hundreds of them, and asked them what. they wanted, >> and that was the one that most of them. tried to buy. And so, it's really just a. it's really a breakdown of how to do the.

thing. And actually I referenced you in. that in the chapter about the anterior. mids singular cortex and what you said. about it. And. >> so. >> well to be clear I didn't discover that. structure but I'm happy to u to expound. on all its incredible abilities. >> I just quote what I heard you say about. it in your podcast but I'll show you. what I what I wrote. Um. >> cool. I'll get a copy. I'm late to the. train obviously. [laughter]. >> So I think it's it's it's enriching as a. person. It's not about optimization. per se. A it's it's about being a human. being and learning and effort that's. followed by learning and reward.

especially for things that you might. well including things that may not. immediately benefit you but just to. enrich your mind is is cool like if. you're interested in the history of. medicine read a hard book the prince of. medicine about Galen. If you're. interested in light, there are a bunch. of cool books about sunlight coming out. now from people other than me about how. cool sunlight is. And there's just like. cool books out there. >> But this is this is linked to brain. health and dementia, these kind of. things. No, >> to some extent. Yeah. I mean, the data. on dementia say that people who stay.

mentally and physically active and are. socially enriched um do very do much. better. In fact, Massud Hussein uh who. is this brilliant neurologist from. Oxford um has been talking about. patients who it turns out live a very. long time, have lots of plaques and. tangles, the signature anatomical. features of Alzheimer's dementia, but no. dementia. >> Oh yeah. >> And these people are exercisers and they. are people who stay very avidly engaged. in learning. So there are a lot more. people with quote unquote al with.

Alzheimer's walking around. they have. all the diagnostic features of. Alzheimer's except the memory loss and. dementia. So this says that to some. extent the physical. ramifications of Alzheimer's and the. consequence of those changes in neurons. are somewhat somewhat separable. We want. to be fair. I mean he also told me that. there are patients who have Parkinson's. who can't generate smooth movement but. if they have to escape a burning. building they can which is. interesting a little frustrating as a.

message because it sort of sends could. potentially send the wrong message like. they're just not motivated enough but it. points to the fact that if motivational. systems are high enough that there may. be alternate motivational systems in the. same way that kids with very severe ADHD. if you give them a video game they love. they are locked and loaded. They're in they're in a focus tunnel. like this for two hours which tells you. they can focus but not on things they. they're not really interested in. And a. lot of life is about forcing yourself to. be interested in things you don't really. want to do.

>> So that's number four. We got one left. Number 10 is it? >> Yeah. You said they were linked. >> Number 10 to frame this a little bit. The last chapter of my book is on. personal development. I thought a lot. like am I going to write a book the last. chapter on like relationships? That. seemed like a no. Not because I haven't. had them or not because I haven't had. some great ones. Um but because I think. people who like work on that as their. academics, you know, fundamentally. should do that. Then again, I had a. chapter on nutrition and exercise. But. um in any event, I decided to write.

about relationship to self. And then I thought, no, personal. development is something we're all. trying to do. And here's the key. question set up at the beginning. I talk. about grief and what the science of. grief is and and how to navigate grief. But early on in that the chapter on. personal development, I sort of set it. up the following way. I look out on the. landscape of all the personal, psychological, and relationship. development stuff out there online, in. books, in papers, etc. And it looks like. there's sort of a two bins. One is how.

to. find what's important to you, do what's. best for you, and be the person you're. supposed to be for the world and maybe. for you also. And then there's this. other bin which is that we need to be. very careful about pursuing things and. fulfilling roles because we can get very. far off track from our core like what. Martha Beck would call our essential. self. and I'm a huge fan of her work if. in no small part because she talked. about that in her books which were very.

very impactful for me. But she also has. three degrees from Harvard. So this. isn't somebody who like can't get stuff. done and she's a mom and she's navigated. complicated life landscapes. So I was like, "Okay, this is this kind. of it." And then I I hosted um James. Hollis, this 84 year old Yungian analyst. on my podcast. And um he just wowed the. heck out of all of us. And he basically. said this, here's a really good life. Mind you, this guy's written books like. the Eden Project on on relationships.

He's written books like Under Saturn. Shadow on the healing and trauma of men. He's a he's a brilliant thinker. And he. said, "Look, there's three things you. got to do every day." And he encourages. his patients to write this on their. refrigerator or carry it around with. them. He says, "First, shut up." I'm. like, "What? I thought it was gonna be. like this like nice young analyst.". Like, he goes, "Shut up." There's always. somebody suffering more than you. You. have to have gratitude. You have to have. a gratitude practice. So, I spent some. time talking about what that really.

looks like because there's a science of. gratitude and then there's the common. understanding about what that is. It's. really about. receiving gratitude or yes having a. gratitude practice of all the things. that are good in your life, but really. it's about giving gratitude and. receiving gratitude. And that's a I talk. about that and how to accomplish that. The second thing he he said, so I go, okay, now he'll kind of soften up and he. goes, he says, um, suit up. You're not. going to be able to do well in anything. in life unless you prepare. Get up in. the morning, take care of your health,

do what you need to to shower, brush. your teeth, get organized. This sounds a. little bit like Jordan Peterson's Clean. Your Room, but it was even like edgier. than that. It was like, how in the world. could you perform well on an exam or in. a relationship or in a sport or at work. if you don't actually do your homework? I was like, oh man, this guy's like some. like boomer knowledge right here. And. then he says, "And show up." He said, "Happy people fulfill outward roles. for the world. They fulfill roles. Father, mother, sister, brother. They.

look at themselves and this is not the. totality of it but they look at. themselves as somebody who needs to. fulfill roles. Teacher, mechanic, whatever, engineer, podcaster, but you have to shut up, suit up and. show up. You need to fulfill roles. There is no human being that doesn't get. doesn't have to do stuff for the world. You can't freload. But then he said. there's this other bin which is if you. carry on like that for 10 20 30 years.

you can end up [clears throat] quite. happy but most of the time if people. just do those things they end up pretty. miserable. >> And I was like oh man like and he said. the other piece is once a day you need. to get out of role fulfillment. You need. to get out of preparation suit up and. you need to get out of trying to be more. grateful. You still need to do that, but you need. to get out of that and you need to go. into what he called exiting the stimulus. response mode of being, which could be. sitting quietly in meditation. It could.

be drawing, listening to music. You're. not trying to accomplish anything. And. you're just letting your unconscious. mind feed you information about what he. called your deepest heart's desires. And I was like, "Yes, this is why we go camping." He said, "Yes, you can take longer extended. breaks. You can go backpacking. You can. run. You can do that. You can allow this. to happen in any number of ways. But. once a day, take some space for yourself. and just touch in with self. Now, if.

you're sitting there going, "Okay, what. do I want to be when I grow up? It. should happen." It's not the way it. works. Your unconscious mind speaks to. you in emotions, in analogies, and it. sets you up to go back into life to be. able to see connections and start. navigating in new and interesting ways, ways that are unique to your heart's. desires about what you like and what you. don't like. and to know that those. choices are in goodness and in keeping. with who you are. I can't tell you what. your deepest heart's desires are. Only. you can come to that clarity, but you. need to do it through a practice where.

you're not trying to be the football. coach, the mom, the best this. You need. to listen to yourself, but you also need. to keep fulfilling those roles because. he and I both agree, and I mentioned. this several times because I get asked. all the time, how do I find my calling? You find it while working your butt off. doing something else. That's how you. don't sit around going that's my. calling. >> You work your butt off doing that. something else and you hate it. So you. do something that you hate a little less. and you do something you hate a little. less maybe and eventually you get pulled. forward to this thing that is your key. self. >> and there's not necessarily a sing cuz.

people often when they talk about. finding a find your passion passion is a. word happens to be singular which can be. somewhat. >> distorting. Yeah. Because then you think. almost like an Easter egg I have to go I. have to go search for it and there's. going to be one of them somewhere. >> I can handle fiveyear chunks. Maybe this. just reflects my years and years of like. getting degrees where it's like 3 to 5. years for this then 3 to 5 years for. that posttock, graduate school, etc. I'm. navigating from 50 to 55 now. That's. what I know. I know what I'm going to. carry forward. Exercise, faith,

hydration. I know what I'm going to. carry forward, but I don't know what's. coming next. I've never been 60 before. >> So, the end of the day, and there were. two questions that I had for you here. based on some of the research. Um, the. first is I'll say it's a technical one, but sleeping on your side. I heard. there's um there's different outcomes. for your brain based on how you sleep at. night. >> When you sleep, you have a wash out of. waste products from the brain. >> Very important for offsetting dementia. Very important for feeling rested. And. if that's not enough incentive, very. important for for getting rid of bags.

under your eyes. You know, in the. morning when you're Have you ever seen. yourself after one night's shitty sleep? >> Oh my gosh. >> Right. Sleep two nights well. You see. yourself? >> Yeah. Yeah. What the hell? >> Yeah. You're handsome self again, Stephen. >> You know, so what is that? That's. accumulation of of lymph and other. fluids and waste products here. This. >> one flushed out. >> Yeah. >> Really? >> So during sleep, there's this lymphatic. clearance. Um, and it does seem it can. be slightly but significantly improved. by sleeping on your side with your head. slightly elevated. We used to think it.

was slightly inverted. Now we think it's. slightly elevated. When you get up in. the morning, I'm actually a big fan. I've got one of these inversion tables, but most people won't, you know, where. you lie back and you go upside down. No, you hang upside down. This feels good on. my back. But some people get the shaker. Some people do some jump rope. You can. just kind of shake out and move because. the lymphatic system is really. incredible. It's one-way valves stacked. up from your feet all the way up to your. brain. The people think about the the. role of lymph and lymph nodes in immune. checkpoints and immune system. That's. all true of course, but the lymph system.

is taking liquid and it's dumping it. back into your blood circulation and it. can accumulate when you're lying or when. you're you know this is lympadeema is. you know swelling of the lower limbs. etc. you so you need to move when you. move the you essentially squeezing the. lymph in these one-way valves up to dump. back into the general circulation. Your. brain doesn't have that mechanism. So. miraculously in sleep you get the. aststerytes the gal cells actually. create a bit of extra space in the brain.

between neural tissue that allows the. waste products the glimp as we call it. ga lymph glymph to flow up and out. towards the surface of the brain and. then it dumps out of the brain. still in the body of course and down and. out actually the puffiness of the eyes. the anterior chamber of the eye some of. the cloudiness of the eye these systems. are shared and actually some of it. actually comes out through the nose. which is wild but get upright move.

around there's a a bunch of ways of like. you know these like tapping shaking it. looks silly it looks kind of crazy looks. like you've been in California too long. if you do these things but it can help. move lymph out but sleeping does that. clears glimp the other thing that's. there's a recent study published in. proceedings in the national academy of. sciences that I do detail in the book. which is a short meditation. believe it or not, increases glimpy. clearance in the daytime. Now, this is. super interesting because folks like you.

and me always want to figure out how we. can get by with less sleep and still. feel awesome and not short circuit our. health. Turns out that the regular. meditators are probably able to shave an. hour off their sleep, 20 minutes a day. meditation, because they're getting the. glimp clearance during their meditation. And so in sleep, the timing of sleep and. how long you sleep has a lot to do with. body temperature, but also there seems. to be a drive for glimp clearance that. says you need to sleep longer, which is. why one of the reasons why when you're. sick, you sleep a lot more. One of them.

There are others as well. So short, I'm. now back to meditating. And my. meditation practice is pretty feeble. compared to many. But here's what I do. I wake up in the morning and the first. thing I do is 10 breaths of meditation. I tell myself if I can't concentrate for. 10 breaths without my mind going. elsewhere, what kind of day am I going. to have? And also, what kind of human am. I if I can't organize myself for 10. breaths? Then I get out of bed, I. usually go straight to the bathroom, pee, then I go hydrate, then I get.

sunlight, then I try and get some. movement. Although these days I because. of the dog, I get a walk in, then I come. back, drink some caffeine, exercise, >> and the 10 step starts and it starts all. over again. We are this rhythm. No human. being has ever escaped these circadian. influences in cortisol and melatonin. >> Do you take uh you don't really talk in. depth about supplements or recommend. supplements? >> Oh, I do. I always get asked what should. I take? I talk about alpha GPC, elyroine. I talk about theine. I talk. about theine's use with lowdose caffeine. for enhanced task switching, which is a.

very interesting literature. I talk. about um ways to improve sleep. Everything from tart cherry to apagenine. to queivic um which is one of the doras. one of these uh orrexin drugs I talk I. oh I. >> but what do you take every day. >> you got another three hours really is a. lot. >> n not really. >> what are you like if you had to pick. five if they said to you can only do. five for the rest of your life. >> what five supplements would it be. >> well if somebody's sleeping terrifically.

well I'd say nothing for sleep if. they're not sleeping terrifically well I. would suggest they they try magnesium 3. and8 or magnesium and bislycinate. They're interchangeable for sleep. Okay, that's one. I'm a big believer in. getting at least one gram per day of EPA. omega-3. >> Okay, >> I suggest getting it because it's now. available generic and cheap, but. prescription form, Lovaza, >> EPA, would. >> that form of of omega-3 that's that you. want for brain health, probably also for. cardiovascular health and reduced.

inflammation. >> How do I know if that's the omega-3 that. I have? >> You need a prescription. Oh, you need a. prescription. >> But here's what's awesome about it. It's. very high concentration EPA and it's. cleared of all heavy metals. >> Okay? >> And it's very very inexpensive. So the. challenge is getting a doctor to. prescribe it for you. Just tell them you. want Lavaza or else you're going to take. a bunch of stuff over the counter. You. might get mercury poisoning. There you. go. >> Don't threaten your doctor, but you get. the idea. So that's for mental health, physical health. Big believer in. boosting omega-3s. Also, I don't eat. fatty fish. I don't like salmon unless.

it's sushi and like I'm just not good at. eating seafood. Um, so that's two. vitamin D. >> Vitamin D. >> 5,000 to 10,000 IUs per day. People be. like, "Oh, you don't know that. You need. to blood test. You don't want to over. Okay, don't take 25,000." But most. people are underdosing vitamin D. And. also, I'm not I know it pisses people. off, but I'm not trying to like hit the. RDA, okay? Just like I. >> the recommended daily loss. >> Yeah. I'm not just trying to hit the. RDA. I'm also not trying to like blow a.

gasket by taking too much. Like, let's. be rational here, right? I'm trying to. get to a point where I can derive. safety but additional benefits. And it's. clear that dosing of 5,000 IU per day. has some additional benefits that go way. beyond conventional benefits of vitamin. D that are discussed. For instance, hormone health. Like I can see my bloods. getting better when I take 5,000 as. opposed to 3,000 IU of vitamin D. And. I'm not changing anything else. So. vitamin D and I get sunlight. Maybe.

10,000 was a little high, but I take. five to 10. Um, so that's three. And. then the other two would be if you're. going to exercise or work intensely late. in the day or if you're going to if you. really want a stimulant to go with your. caffeine. By the way, 90% of the world. consumes caffeine every day. So that's a. foregone conclusion that they're already. taking it. I am a big fan of alpha GPC. I am 600 milligrams or 900 milligrams of. of it. It increases choline which.

increases acetylcholine. >> Oh, I feel like acetylcholine in the. cupboard. >> Yeah. Which can increase your ability to. focus. I'm a big believer in this in not. for everyone, but rather than going. straight to a a prescription stimulant. And I'll tell you why. There are very. very few things that can increase focus. and energy that don't damage your sleep. But even better, alpha GPC gives you. more REM sleep. Nobody wants to hear. this, but it's absolutely true. But the. other thing, the important caveat is. that it can increase something called.

TMAO, which can increase cardiovascular. risk. So, a simple way to mitigate that. is you take 600 milligrams of of of a. garlic capsule, and it doesn't smell. like garlic. So, I kind of tuck that in. with it. And you can take it anytime, same day. >> Is that five? >> That's five cuz I threw garlic in there. No, because we said it was um magnesium. bislycinator 3 and 8. We said um. omega-3. We said vitamin D and then we. said alpha GPC would be my preferable. thing to nicotine or prescription.

stimulants and I'm but caffeine is great. great data on caffeine um in fact 200 to. 400 milligrams of caffeine per day has. been shown to offset dementia in. meaningful ways meaningful ways it's not. causal it's correlative but those data. are covered in there as well so I'm I'm. going to continue drinking my yerba mate. and my coffee and then the so I suppose. the Last one. >> I have, >> you know, that's kind of like you Oh, creatine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I was going to say dealer's. choice, but creatine seems to work best.

for cognitive enhancement when you're a. bit sleepd deprived or stressed. This. kind of thing. I don't know. I've been. taking creatine since I was 17 or 18, somewhere in there. 5 to 10 grams per. day. I like it because it I mean, I'm. trying to maintain or build strength and. it puts water in your muscles. It makes. you stronger and it feels good to be. strong. and you got you got trained, but. that's why I take it. >> Okay. The last thing I want to ask you. about is um I saw a clip, I think it was. one of your most viral clips um of all. time where you just talked about how. going for a walk after you eat can have.

a really big impact on your body. >> Yes. >> That most people don't realize. >> Most people don't realize. There's a. section I think walking is necessary but. not sufficient for health. You know, I. don't think you need to count 10,000. steps per day, but I I think 7,000 to. 8,000 steps per day should be the goal. You can do it. I'll pace while I'm on. calls. I take every when I finish a. podcast with my team, we take a walk. I. I'm always trying to take stairs. When I. travel, I take stairs, not the. escalator. You arrive a little sweatier.

to your plane, but you're also rucking. your bags and this kind of thing. So. walking is is incredible because those. low-level repeated muscle contractions. really help buffer blood glucose. especially after a meal. But there's. this wild study where the solius muscle. the one that gives the calf width width. you know when you do seated calf raises. right you're it's this muscle underneath. the gastro nemius right. >> that muscle is about 1% of your total. musculature.

>> but it has an outsized and significant. glucose utilization interesting so in. this study which is not practical they. had people do what they called soius. push-ups which are basically. non-weighted seated calf raises while. sitting and they had them do it. repeatedly and they looked at blood. glucose regulation and that powerfully. regulated blood glucose increases. It. buffered the peaks and it turns out that. this is related to walking. So I'm not. suggesting unless perhaps you're stuck. on a plane or while while in the office. that you you know if you're a knee.

bouncer rejoice. You know you're doing. yourself good. Um but this movement. really seems to help blood glucose. management. Now some people say, "Oh. yeah, this is so silly. They're talking. about all day you're going to do this. Yeah, some people probably accuse us of. this. No, what I'm saying is walk. because when you walk, you're getting. that low-level repeated muscle. contraction. It's a slow twitch muscle. and it seems to be I don't want to call. it a sink, but it seems to be an. unsuspected um furnace for glucose. utilization. >> And why does that matter?

>> You don't want big peaks in glucose. You. can manage them. I mean, you get more. insulin will be secreted if you have a. big peak in in glucose. That's why. insulin's there to make sure that um. glucose is managed. You don't want it. too high. You don't want to be. hypoglycemic. In fact, that can be. deadly. You don't want to be. hypoglycemic. But when people eat, they. experience an increase in blood glucose. And while the peaks are manageable, if. you're buffering them, so you're you're. you're sort of flattening out those. peaks with, you know, 5 to 10 minutes of. walking after a meal, you will have.

fewer energy crashes. In theory, over. time, your metabolic health can be. better or at least cannot get worse. And. you know there's Dr. Rhonda Patrick has. has pointed out there's a sort of a. comparison study where people either. walked after meals were for 30 minutes. or or so on per day or they did you know. 10 air squats every 45 minutes or so. just stand up and do air and it looks. like they were comparable. Maybe the air. squats were better. I don't know about. you but I'm not going to stand up and do. air squats in a restaurant or when I get.

out into the street of New York if I. have the great, you know, experience of. having dinner with you and James Ston. again. the last time you shared a meal. like I'm not going to do air squats. Oh, we're going to walk. So, I think I'm not. being disparaging of of Rhonda. I think. she was pointing out a a mechanistic. feature, not not a not a a protocol, but. necessarily, but if you're stuck on a. plane, you could do some air squats. You. could you could, you know, bounce your. knee. And, you know, non exercise um. induced thermogenesis is a massive. calorie burn. You know, people who move.

a lot tend to be rather thin. They tend. to be lean. it the studies on those like. I go back to my undergraduate days when. we worked on metabolism and physiology. like Rothwell and Stock and some other. folks these scientists who figured out. that there were people who could eat a. lot more than you would think they. needed but they always stayed lean turns. out they're moving a lot during the day. burning up to 1,800 calories a day. Now, that's extreme, but some people who just. move a bit more at a thousand calories.

per day. And there's this paper. published in the journal Science, which. is a great journal, not as great as. nature, but the Brits get the cake. there. And people will argue, but it's. true. That the decline in metabolism. that we all associate with aging, like, oh, metabolism slows as you age. Turns. out that's not true. Turns out that if. people maintain muscle mass, that. doesn't happen. And you say, okay, well, then aging is muscle mass loss is. reduction in metabolism. Actually, no. people are moving less and I've been as. everyone else has been absorbed with. this longevity thing. I look at older.

people and in particular people in their. 80s and you know what I see a lot of a. lot less spontaneous movement and a lot. of mouth breathing [gasps]. [panting and sighs] which at rest is not. good. We know this that deprivives the. brain of oxygen. It's not good. You can. mouth breathe during exercise, physiological size, etc. But you don't. want to be a mouth breather in sleep or. in wakefulness. And then you host people. like James Hollis or Twyla Tharp who's I. don't know her exact age. I think she's. in her early 80s, but choreographer,

world-class dancer who deadlifts a lot. and works out for 2 hours a day at 5 in. the morning, who boxes, who. choreographs. They're so mentally sharp. They're physically lean. There are other. examples I could rattle off and you go, "What is happening?" Mike Snyder, my. colleague at Stanford, who's not that. old, but he's in his 70s. You look at. them, you go, "What's going on?" And. they're moving all the time. They're. moving. They're mentally active. They. have posture like you. They're. exercising, sure, but they are moving, moving, moving. The spontaneous movement.

is burning calories. That's one piece, but it's also the glucose regulation. It's the fact that they're not sitting. stagnant in their own it, you know, there's Bla Norton has pointed out quite. beautifully actually that what's the. problem with caloric excess? Okay, there's the fat aesthetic piece, right? body fat aesthetic piece. But that. aside, it's that you have a toxicity of. over of of energy. The world's expert in. mitochondria came on my podcast. recently, Jared Ruer. I mean, he's.

phenom in the the biochemistry and the. the genetics of mitochondria, and he. will tell you, he's like, when you. overload a system and therefore a cell. with calories, the mitochondria, the. whole system gets sick. the energy. management system of a cell gets sick. and your metabolism, this thing that you. call your metabolism is the collective. makeup of all these trillions of cells. So you jam too much fuel in there, like. they don't work as well. >> And caloric restriction at times might.

be beneficial. Cloric maintenance maybe. a little bit more, at times a little bit. less. This is good. So movement, movement, movement because it's. obviously calories in, calories out. >> You know what this is, right? >> You're telling me I need to stop. >> No, no, no, no, no. This is not a clock. This is a. This is a This is a CO2 monitor. >> I thought it was a lux meter. Okay. Okay. How high Oh, we have a lot of CO2. in here. >> Yeah. It's It's something that we always. have in the studio because I I think I. learned over time that the higher this. got, the more sort of tired I felt. >> And obviously because there's not great.

ventilation in this studio here. We. started at 600 and we're now at 1,700. >> And we're under short wavelength light. But before we came in here, what did we. do? We went outside and we had a blast. of full spectrum. >> sunlight. >> Sunlight. Yeah. Yeah, I always I Yeah, I. think about this a lot now when I'm. trying to do good cognitive work. I read. some studies that if this gets above a. thousand parts per million, cognitive. performance starts to go down. So, >> well, if your cognitive performance gets. any better, we're all hosed cuz you're. >> you're very kind, Andrew. Thank you so. much for so many reasons. It's such an. honor to get to learn from you. But I.

you know, there's I'll be honest, there's no books that I'm waiting for. There's no books that I've been waiting. for. Is there any book in my life that. I've been waiting for? No, there's not. This is the only book in my life that. I've been waiting for for years now. And. um I say that to say because I I I. believe in your approach. I believe in. your approach, your scientific rigor, the nuance you apply, the stories that. you tell, the experiences you've had, the unbelievable almost like mesmerizing. ability you have to remember things, remember name. You didn't reference one. study without referencing like the.

author of the study. And I've like never. seen I was thinking how the has he. done that? Like how do you know all the. names of all these people? years of. years of training and advisers who. drilled into me that attribution is. important. >> It's remarkable. There's so much. information out there around health and. all the things that we've graced today. But um I was waiting for your book. because I'm not very good at reading. books, right? >> Well, there's an audio version too if. you prefer. [laughter] It'll be a long. run. >> No, I'm trying to build the anter and. mids singular cortex, Andrew. I'm going. to I was I I always said to myself.

whenever he whenever he publishes that. bloody book, I will read the whole thing. from cover to cover and uh this is the. first book in the world I believe that's. been printed. >> Yeah. Can this is an opportunity to say. what I've been waiting this entire. podcast to say the copy you're holding. in your hand is the first the very first. and the only hardcover copy that I have. or have touched or have seen. And I'm. gifting it to you if and I'm gifting it. to you. I want you to have the book. Seriously, I want you to have it. and um. and I'll sign it if you want or not sign. it if you don't. But um it would be an.

honor for me uh to be able to do that. because I've learned so much from you. You've been an amazing colleague and. friend and and supporter, but also just. really a you're an amazing human being. You're a truly good human being. And I'm. I've spent time with you on and off Mike. and you know the number one thing that. you need to know about Stephen is he is. who he appears to be. He's a super kind, curious, loving person. Flawed like the.

rest of us, >> albeit less flawed than me. That's. clear. Um, but you really are a a great. human being and you're trying to do. great things in the world, for everyone. around you and for the world. So, um, it's a vastly lesser token of of my. gratitude to you for all those things. than than it it could be or should be, but I'd like to give it to you. >> No, it's such an honor. I was like. thinking of ways to steal it. So. [laughter] so glad. >> Well, I'm gifting it to you. I'm gifting. it to you and and um and now I'm gonna.

go read your book and I look forward to. your next book. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's such. a such a beautiful book and I I'm really. glad that it netted out at the size that. it did as well. It is I think the. perfect size and I think you've you've. done a wonderful job throughout as I was. flicking through as you're speaking and. jumping to different sections. I think. you've done a wonderful job of making it. really accessible because, you know, I'm. not the smartest cookie as it relates to. science, but I was able to understand. everything and I think that's a really. remarkable thing. It is also gorgeous. >> Um, I dare I say, and I'll probably get.

up for this, but I think uh. sometimes the the British version of. books is is good-looking and then the. American versions, I always wonder why. they're a little bit uglier. >> The the aesthetics in Britain, you know, um like. >> people dress really well in Britain. They take care. They like pay attention. to these little details like in their. shoes and things like what do you call. it? Smart. Like they dress really smart, right? I'm a big fan of like Ben Sherman. and Fred Perry clothes and things like. that and like the the details are what. make those look so cool. >> Well, this felt like a very sort of.

European designed beautiful book and uh. and also your podcast is incredible. I, you know, I have to say so many of the. guests that I've had on here are because. I listen to your show and I get mind. blown by the guests that you have on. your show and then I'm like to my team, "Oh my god, this person is unbelievable. He said this one." And I'm sending your. podcast all around whenever my someone. in my life is really struggling with. something. I go out and search usually. on YouTube and then I stumble across. your channel and find an episode that. you've done about that particular thing. and I'm always sending them around. So I. highly recommend anyone that subscribes. to my channel to go and subscribe over. on um your show as well. I'll link it.

below so everyone can get it. So, it. turns out Huberman Lab is the sort of. gateway drug to Diary of the [laughter]. CEO for science and health content. >> Literally, legally, it's worth being. honest about it. Um, and you've got to. get the book. It's finally here. Um, comes out September. So, this episode. will will air in September. So, it. should be out now for pre-order or. order. You've got to go get it. It's. it's the for me the definitive book on. this subject. Thank you so much, Andrew. >> Thank you, Stephen. >> Love this conversation. I hope to have. another conversation sometime soon. >> Yes. >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy.

algorithm where they know exactly what. video you would like to watch next based. on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video. is the perfect video for you. It's. different for everybody looking right. now. Check this video out and I bet you. you might love it.