Why Trump’s Delusions Are So Dangerous: Therapist | The Daily Beast Podcast

His grandiosity is so extreme, right? That not only does he want to be the Pope and Jesus and the President of Venezuela. and the ruler of Iran, and, you know, he wants to be all of these things, and he wants the world to worship him, and he wants to erect massive monuments to praise himself. So this obscene arc de Triomphe, this obscene ballroom, the ways in which he's been pressuring various states to rename their airports. and their train stations and their tunnels after him.

Okay, that he's put his face on a coin, that he wants to stand on the money. He wants the world to worship him as a god. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. And, well, I think we saw a new level. this week of Trump's sense of self. And that sense of self includes him being a deity. Well, who better to understand what this level. of, well, seeing himself as a deity.

actually means in terms of his mental health, especially during a week when Congressman Jamie Raskin from Maryland. has demanded that the president sit for a series of cognitive tests. to pressure test the 25th amendment. Who better to diagnose the president's sense of self as a deity. than one of our favorite guests, Doctor John Gardner? He's a psychologist and he well, he understands mental illness.

He understands grandiosity. He's argued on this podcast before that Donald Trump is showing the same stages. of dementia that his father did when he was around the same age. And earlier this week, we heard Mary Trump argue the same. But just before we go to Doctor John. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. We're trying to get to 700,000 by the end of maybe the month.

With your help. And the reason that we can bring you fearless conversations like this, where we really do ask questions that lots of other people are not asking, is because we are independent media, and we really appreciate your support. Doctor John, let's get into it. Doctor John Gartner is in the House. Thank you very much for what feels like. a psychological emergency in the white House.

Yes. You have talked a lot about Donald Trump. showing symptoms of great grandiosity. But this week we literally saw him portraying himself through AI. as Jesus Christ. What John, what does this reveal about the president? I think what it reveals is that the president is now psychotic. I've actually seriously, yes.

I'm using this term in the medical sense. I'm not using it in some sort of, exaggeration or for effect. And I've avoided saying that up till now. I've talked about him having, grandiosity, but actually, Eric, from who originated the diagnosis. of malignant narcissism, said it at a certain point, malignant narcissist. become so grandiose that it's psychotic that they have delusions of grandeur. And I think that we have gotten there.

He is suffering from delusions of grandeur. You know, I used to say, what's it going to take? What's it going to take for people to beat that Donald Trump is unfit. if he babbles incoherently from the Oval Office, if he claims to be Jesus or the Messiah, if he wears a tinfoil hat. Well, we've got two out of three. We've got two out of three. How scary. And what can you give us? An official diagnosis of what being psychotic means?

Because I think people. throw around these terms, you know, you're hearing is a psychopath. He's a sociopath. I know that you deal in specifics and diagnostics. What does it mean to declare that someone is now. displaying symptoms of of being a psychotic? Well, I think he's having a manic episode. And that and the delusions of grandeur. are concurrent with that or consistent with that. You know, Harry Sisson put out a great, very great timeline.

I just want to read this to you, because actually, the content. of the tweets matter, but also the process whereby he produces them matters. So at 9:40 p.m., that's when he posted the famous Jesus picture at 950. One minute later, he posts a picture of the Ark to Trump. at 1010, a news clip at 1032, a news clip at 1053, a news clip at 1243. He announces the policy that there will be a blockade of the Straits of Hormuz.

This is how he announces the policy. Okay. After midnight, on a tear of, all night tweeting, or posting, at 235 in the morning, he posted something about Joe Biden at 237, something about Eric Swalwell. 237 he reposted the article about Joe Biden. F 238 he posted, an article about his ballroom. And at 410, he posted, I can't read my writing. something else, but oh, he was posting all night.

Okay, so not only was he posting crazy. grandiose things, but he's up all night doing it well, and there are slight gaps. on a sort of 90 minutes or whatever where one assumes he's dozed off. Well, how do we I don't I don't know, I don't know if he's doze off or not, but he's up all night tweeting crazy stuff and these delusions of grandeur, you know, look, he has not only has he said, as he posted himself as Jesus.

Okay? But just to recall, when they were picking the new pope, he posted a picture of himself as the Pope. Right. He has said that that he was going to become president of Venezuela, that that he's running ahead in the polls and he's going to learn. Spanish really quickly and become president of Venezuela. He said that he's going to do that. He said that the Iranians have asked him if he would become the supreme. leader of Iran. He has said that they me, that they are, you know, they don't want to do it, but they should rename the Straits of Hormuz the Trump Strait.

I mean, this is a psychotic level of grandiosity. Losing weight. isn't easy, but weight loss by Hindus has your back. They offer FDA approved GLP one medications, including the Wego. v pill and the Wigo V pen, to help you lose weight and keep it off. And our producer, Devin Roger Eno lost 30 pounds on my Govi. It helps you control your appetite so you eat less.

And it's the first GLP one pill for weight loss, so no needles if you're squeamish. Everything happens online. A license provider evaluates you, and if prescribed. your medication, shipped straight to your door. You also get 24 seven messaging with your care. team and lifestyle support through the app. Visit hims.com/beast to get a personalized plan. That's himss.com/beast hims.com/beast.

Weight Loss by Hims is not available in all 50 states. and we're goofy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk. as to get started and learn more, including important safety information. with goofy clinical study information and restrictions, visit hims.com. Again, just going back to. sort of the behaviors of someone who's psychotic.

beyond tweeting, what else is it a reflective of in terms of what's actually happening. in the brain and, and how does it manifest. in behavior besides, besides posting frantically and apparently. having a very sleep disordered night? Well, I think that his frontotemporal dementia. is contributing to this because as his frontal lobes are deteriorating, he's losing his ability even within his own disordered universe.

Right? Trump has always created his own reality, but now he's really lost within that fake reality. that he is really unable to distinguish between lies. and fantastical ideas. And this is really where he's I think he's crossed the line. He doesn't know when he's lying or when he's. claiming that he's the second coming. So so this is very, very serious.

It's really hard to imagine that we had that. The American president has gone stark raving mad, but he has, it's a very scary thought, actually, isn't it? It's a very scary sort of realization. And when he got a lot of negative feedback about him. posting himself as Jesus, he then deleted the tweet. Does that mean that he cares about what people think?

I mean, he said, oh, I was I was a doctor. I was supposed to at, you know, I was showing myself healing people. And then he said, and I do heal people. I do make people better. So, so what is that about? Well, at a certain level, he can respond to, I mean, I mean, the uproar was amazing, especially among its base. I mean, really, if you want to antagonize evangelical Christians, I'm not sure what you could do that would be worse.

It it'd be better if he came out as trans. than declaring. I think we we're sure that's never going to happen. No, I know, but what I'm just saying, I mean, this is this really is blasphemy. It is the most sacrilegious thing that he could possibly do. And it's also crazy in terms of alienating his own base. He's gone down 40 points with, with non-college-educated, whites in America, 40 points. Imagine dropping 40 points. So he is losing his own base.

So it results in self-destructive behavior. That's absolutely. And and his lack of awareness that this is crazy, that this is self-destructive, is part of the loss of of reality testing. So Jamie Raskin, the congressman, from Maryland this week asked for cognitive tests. He said it's time that the president. Absolutely. What would you recommend would be the most valid tests for the president to take?

Right. You know, I'm not a neuropsychologist, but this is a place where we would refer. someone under normal clinical practice for a very extensive battery. I mean, like an all day, series of tests where they would take, like a dozen different tests, very detailed. These neuropsychological batteries are very detailed. And I suspect that some of that may already have happened, and they're just not sharing it with us, because remember when he went to Walter.

Reed six months after his physical and they gave him the Moca again? First of all, if you're giving some of the Moca. six months later that suggests. you're not screening for dementia, you're monitoring dementia. He also mentioned that he took a series of cognitive tests. plural, which suggests it's more than just the Moca. that they may have been giving him some battery of tests. And he was at Walter Reed for about four hours, which if he was just going for a scan that, I mean, they could have whipped him in and out in 15 minutes.

But these other tests actually take time. So I actually suspect that his doctors have been working him up. But they don't want to share it with us. So can you just explain to people who don't have your, clinical background what the Moca is? It stands for a test from Montreal, right in Montreal. It's called a cognitive assessment test. It's a 30 item screening test. And it has very, very simple items like, can you point out the lion?

Can you draw a clock? Can you repeat a few numbers backwards? Yes, of course. We've said this many times. It's nothing to brag about that you have. That's what the like dragging the roadside sobriety test. Right. Well, I know Michael Wolff and I tried to do part of the motor, and we remembered briefly, and then we immediately forgot everything. It was harder than I think either of us to expect it. But remembering these five words can be hard, right? And we definitely weren't bragging about it. We were like, oh my goodness,

we have where we have older mental ages than we expected. So, so from, you know, the Democratic congressman's point of view, Jamie Raskin, asking for these all the specific things. that the president could do to reassure us that he might be. in on the joke, presenting himself as Jesus Christ. I mean, is there a way for him to come back from. what does feel like manic behavior?

I don't think he's capable of that. You know, the next day, yes, he took down the tweet of him as Jesus. The next day he put it, he posted Jesus and, putting his arm around him, and, in some celestial light. So in other words, what. that implied is, okay, so I'm not Jesus, but I'm Jesus prophet, you know? Right. His I'm his, I'm coming. I'm specially chosen by Jesus, right? To bring, you know, the truth to the world. So it's insane.

It is delusions of grandeur. And he cannot be dissuaded from it. I mean, you would think right after he I mean, first of all, how he could even think that anyone would not respond, negatively. to that tweet of him is Jesus is crazy, but it's not even like he's backing down. He's really doubling down because he is messianic. Okay, remember, I'm the only one who can fix it now, that was messianic. That was crazy. But now, because he is deteriorating, right? It's the messianism is becoming more gross, more disconnected from reality.

It's one thing to say I'm the only guy for the job. It's another thing to say, I'm Jesus and I'm the Pope. and I'm, you know, I mean, that's, that's that's psychotic. And they're delusions, meaning they're not amenable to being disproven. The definition of delusion is something that is patently false or impossible, and the person is not amenable to any level of argument or facts. to dissuade them from it. He believes that he's the messianic one,

and no one is going to convince him that that's not true. So this is really serious. So you mentioned that he might be having a manic episode. What does that comprise of? Well, lack of sleep, and also lack of inhibition, acting out, now, I think it's because he's so complicated, so many things going on. His energy level is flagging, I think because of the dementia.

and because he's not sleeping, but he is over activated. You know, he can't really reach a state of calm. Right? So he's agitated at night and then he's passing out during the day. But he he is in a state of over activation. where he actually believes these fantastical, grandiose ideas. And that's just incredibly shocking. The other thing that's happening is because he is a malignant narcissist.

He's getting a thrill out of war. He's discovering the that he can get. a dopamine rush from blowing stuff up. And the way he's been talking about war, okay, has that quality of a serial sadist. He said to Jonathan Karl, how do you like the performance? You know, when talking about Iran. And then he said, the US military's. looking forward to its next conquest. I mean, this is Glee. He's, you know, usually it's like the most serious thing that, a president can do.

And they way it very thoughtfully. Well, one thing you know is, first of all, he's not capable of weighing. things thoughtfully. Seriously, he's lost the intellectual capacity to do that. And that's reflected in the fact that he can't say the same thing twice about Iran. You know, in terms of why we went, what we're doing, when we'll know when it's time to go, you know, a lot of people on TV, a lot of comedians have been juxtaposing all of his different statements. Right. And there's like a dozen different statements,

none of which are consistent with each other, some of which actually contradict each other. Okay. But this is the fact that his his brain is so deteriorated, he can't even put together a coherent lie and stick with it. Right. He's just all over the place. And what we know from Maggie Haberman, and Jonathan Swan and the book. that they're writing about Trump and the Iran war is this isn't a. we know that he wasn't listening to the national security establishment. or the intelligence establishment or the military establishment.

In fact, he's hollowed out those institutions so that there is nobody. in those institutions who can contradict him. But even. within his tight little circle of, of, of sycophants, right. When he was talking about the Iran war, the only person who was in favor of. it was Pete Hegseth. Right. Who is you know, come on. This is a guy who, with a drinking problem, whose whole body. is tattooed with symbols of, you know, Christian nationalism, who is obviously testosterone pumped, you know,

thug. So, yeah, of course he wants to go to war because he's a, he's, you know, he's he's, he's that type of personality. But JD Vance was against it. Marco Rubio kind of it was. you know, maybe if you just want to take out the missiles. But I don't think regime change really makes sense. So he just made the decision based on his gut. Right. And he'll know he knew it in his bones. But what a lot of people don't realize is we had actually won the negotiations. with Iran, and that's why they were so surprised by the attack.

Iran was giving him everything he asked for. They had agreed to stop enriching uranium. They had agreed to degrade the uranium. They have, and they agreed to permanently stop stockpiling uranium, all of which were concessions they never made to Barack Obama. So Trump's actions, really nothing. to do with anything other than he just wanted to bully someone. He wanted to close a country down. Exactly.

It's, you know, he's a raging ed right now with no frontal lobes. And one of the things that we've talked about on the podcast. before is his anger. And he seems to have picked a fight with the Pope. Which of all the people to pick a fight with? The Pope seems the least likely and again. unhelpful to a large chunk of his Catholic voters.

What does what is that? A manifestation of his determination to argue with the Pope? Right. Clearly, this is very politically unwise. I mean, I can't imagine really any, you know, anyone you'd rather not, you know, start a fight with and actually, you know, as a group, Catholics voted for him. So again, he's attacking his own base. But this is the self-destructive, mad quality.

to his malignant narcissism that nobody can stop, right? That he's destroying himself, but he's taking the world with him. You know, I think that's really important to understand. You know, when Hitler realized he'd lost the war, right? And he went into the bunker to kill himself, he issued a famous. order that wasn't followed, called the Nero Decree. He told Spears, burn all the ports, all the factories, you know, destroy everything. And then Speer said, well, if I destroy everything, all the Germans will die.

He said, so what? All the good ones are dead already. In other words, when these figures start to go down, right. Well, first of all, they love conquering countries. They love blowing things up. They love bullying, right? It's a thrill for them. And so he is actually right looking for opportunities, right. To bully, to conquer, to blow things up. You know, the military is looking forward to their next conquest. You know, when he thought Iran would be easy, he said, you know, I'll take Cuba next.

So this is really Hilarion, right? He's like trying to sweep across the globe, right? Conquering country after country. Right? This is this. This is a hit, Larry. And kind of impulse. And when he was elected, I predicted this was going to happen. And people said, well, now he's running explicitly on the idea. that he's against these Middle Eastern wars. I said, yeah, but he's a malignant narcissist, and there's never been a malignant narcissist who's led a country. who didn't start wars.

It's like the joke about the scorpion or the fable about the scorpion and the frog. Do you know that one? Yes. And the frog carries the scorpion across the river, and then the scorpion stings in any anyway. And it's just in his nature. It's exactly who he is. Just who he is. It's just who he is. And so this is the problem. No one can contain him. Is this time to call for the 25th amendment? Is this actually. Do you feel right? But do you feel as a doctor if you were called in to diagnose him.

and I know you haven't met him, but as you've always said, there's so much evidence of Trump's behavior out there. because he can't stop talking and he's constantly in our faces. Would you feel as a clinical psychologist that you had enough. to work with to invoke section four of the 25th amendment? Look, I'm glad that Jamie Raskin and the Democrats are finally. naming this and and saying this out loud. I have to congratulate Jamie Raskin.

I've actually been working with him since 2017, off and on. When he first was elected, we, approached him because he was sponsoring. a bill called H.R. 187, which is it says in the Constitution in in section. four of the 25th amendment, that Congress shall set up a body that can evaluate. the president in the in the instance that the 25th amendment has been invoked. And it's in the Constitution, the Congress will set up that body. But Raskin is pointed out they've never set up the body.

So his whole thrust since 2017, what he's introducing now is really. something he's been working on now for eight years, is let's set up the body. And the body should have physicians, psychiatrists, psychologists, in other words, experts who can assess the president. not from a distance, but close up, to determine if he is competent. I can tell you that. I would bet the lives of all my children. that if that body was set up, and if they were invoked and if they assessed him,

they would find him to be non compos mentis. and not fit to serve in the office of presidents. And they would remove him. Of course, we know politically this isn't going to happen. because JD Vance has to invoke. the 25th amendment and either the cabinet has to go along with it. Or and if he fights it, then two thirds of the Congress has to go along with it. So it's, it's it's in a way it's just a gesture. But on the other hand, at least we're speaking the truth. to power and acknowledging that, yes,

you know, compared to King George, this guy's a model. You know, King George would be a model of mental health compared to this guy. We have a mad leader. The problem is. we don't have on paper, we have the mechanism. for getting rid of him, but in reality, we don't. And if. someone with the diagnosis that you say Donald Trump has, which is he's psychotic, he's a malignant narcissist. And he's now got full-on dementia.

Do they become violent if you try and, take away their power and take away. the thing that that that feeds them? Absolutely. Well, I mean, first of all, malignant narcissists. rule by violence and intimidation and fear to begin with. They they like they're bullies, they're gangly, they're gang leaders, you know, so it's that's their, their, their métier. But certainly if they feel threatened, they wouldn't hesitate.

And this is the problem, which is, you know, the more threatened he feels, right. And clearly he must be feeling the walls closing in on him to some degree. He's dropped 40 points with his base. Even evangelical Christians, you know, are outraged. You know, the Epstein files aren't going away and oil and gas prices are up, and all this is going to be true during the the midterm election. But the problem is, yeah, we've got him right where we want him. We've got a cornered, wounded animal.

Well, that's not where you want to be. A cornered, wounded animal is the most vicious and dangerous. kind of animal there is. And that's where he is right now. So the what I'm worried about is, even if we win. the both houses of Congress, he's still the commander in chief, and he's still getting off. on the omnipotent destructiveness and power of blowing things up. So we're not going to be able to stop that.

We can impeach him. We can. You know, send the trial to the Senate. We can pass resolutions. We can start investigations. He still is the commander in chief, and he's going to use that to. dominate and potentially destroy the world, because he is. someone who has the kind of psychology like Hitler and his narrow decree, that. he could very well blow up the whole world and take all of us with him. Yeah. I remember I was having dinner Tuesday night with a colleague.

That was the Tuesday we had the deadline. You know, if by 8:00 or whatever it is, you don't, you know, agree to my terms if we're going to destroy a civilization. I remember having dinner with my friends. saying, so, is this our last night on Earth? I guess we should have another drink. Kind of like in Hamilton. You know, where they go rather than have to go to battle. And so they're all having a drink, you know. Right? Right. Yeah, I remember that at that song. Well, so let me ask you something else, because the other thing he does is he makes wild claims.

So this week he made the claim that the reason he drank so much diet Coke. was because if you pour it on grass, it kills grass. Go it. It's very good for staving off cancer. There's a term we have in psychology. It's called magical thinking. And it's something that, again, we associate with psychosis. We also associate it with young children, you know, it's a it's like Freud called it primary process. It's kind of the most primitive type of thinking where.

if you imagine it, it must be true. But this is just magical thinking. Anything that occurs to him, any stray, crazy thought. is true. I mean, we had kind of a warning about this, right? When he said you can inject bleach or use a light to get rid of Covid. We have desensitized right to how nuts this is. We've desensitized. We have desensitized. What about his arch talking about grandiosity?

He wanted something that was bigger than the arc de Triomphe in Paris, and now he's got something which looks like it's going to be 250ft tall. If you include the statues on top of it. Right. His grandiosity is so extreme, right, that not only does. he want to be the Pope and Jesus and the president of Venezuela. and the the ruler of Iran, and, you know, he wants to be all of these things. He wants and he wants the world to worship him, and he wants to erect massive monuments to praise himself.

So this obscene arc de Triomphe, this obscene ballroom, the ways in which he's been pressuring, various states to rename their airports. and their train stations and their tunnels after him. Okay, that he's put his face on a coin, that he's that he's got banners on the bill, right? He's got banners. on all the government buildings, banners and all the government buildings. It's. He wants the world to worship him as a god. This is like the Sun King.

We're getting back to the beginning. Hidden, posting images of himself as Christ, which, as you say, suggests. the president is psychotic. Doctor John Gartner is always good to get your diagnosis. Depressing though it may be. And you've been talking about these symptoms. for several years now, and it really does feel like this week. we hit a new a new point in Trump's sense of himself.

Well, we'll look forward to having you back on again. the next extreme behavior. But we really appreciate your time and your energy and your observational powers. Many, many thanks. Oh, you're very welcome. Thanks for having me. Always good to be here. Well, it's really most alarming, isn't it? I mean, on the one hand,

it seems funny that we have a president who would post pictures of himself. as a Christ like figure, but then when he's also bombing. a country at the same time, it's hard to reconcile them. And also Doctor John's observations that this could be a manic episode, and it's posted during an evening when there appears to have been very. little sleep is clearly cause for, well, it's cause for concern. If you have been. Thank you for joining us.

Don't forget to leave your comments telling us which part of the conversation. most unnerved you or perhaps reassured you. We love to. hear from you, and I find reading the comments. incredibly helpful in terms of understanding. There are other people out there who feel as concerned, certainly as I do, and I know a lot of our guests do. And my co-host inside Trump's head, and Michael. and I will be back tomorrow with Inside Trump's head.

Don't miss it. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devin Roger Reno, Ryan Murray, Rachel Parsa, Heather Pizarro, Neil Rosen. The house.