Why Trump's Blatant Corruption Hurts Us All: Robert Reich | The Daily Beast Podcast

Donald Trump appears to have made at least $5 billion. in the eight months since he was inaugurated. Any thoughts on his crypto holdings? This is pure corruption. Let's not beat around the bush. When history is written about this administration, one of the first lines in the first paragraph is going to be. about the extraordinary payoffs that were made to Donald Trump.

I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. And thank you, thank you, thank you for all your comments on Doctor. John Gardner's diagnosis of Donald Trump as having dementia. Many of you found his arguments and his medical terms extremely convincing. Several of you suggested other doctors we could talk to, so we're reaching out. so we don't just have one person's diagnosis that we're relying on. But as many of you pointed out, what was convincing about Doctor.

John Gardner was just the sense that he's been diagnosing President Trump, who's been in the public eye for so long that there are lots of moments. to judge him against now five years, ten years and 30 years ago, which is what doctors need and often don't have. But in this case, they actually do. So thank you for your comments on YouTube. Let's get into today's guest, who is the same age as the president. and just as busy as the president, but he's busy on Substack, on YouTube.

He's been making documentaries. He's writing books to make sure we know what a catastrophe is. happening to the America he knows and loves. Today, I'm talking to Robert Risch, who was secretary of labor under Bill Clinton. He was advisor to presidents from President Ford to President Obama. He's a beloved Berkeley professor, and he was the subject of this year's documentary, The Last Class. He's also the force behind inequality media.

and of a new memoir, Coming Up Short, referring to his height. He's only four foot 11, but he towers above most of us. A memoir of my America, Robert Reich. Let's get into it. Robert, you were labor secretary. What are you making of this attempt to what appears to be obstruct. the numbers around inflation and around jobs? Well, it's crazy from the standpoint of the the economy.

You've got millions of actors who need accurate information. about the direction the economy is going in. If they're going to make decisions about investing, or building or hiring, and if they don't get that information, they're going to be risk averse. And that's exactly what's happening. A lot of people, who otherwise might be hiring, have slowed down their hiring enormously because they don't. know what's going on, coupled with the fact that there are tariffs. There is, you know, this kind of arbitrary and capricious,

set of decision making coming out of the white House. Well, again, it's all, it all is, it deters, economic investment, which is bad for everyone. And you can't shoot the messenger. I mean, if Donald Trump doesn't like what's coming out of the era of labor statistics. or he doesn't like the the Fed's decisions on interest rates,

attempt mirror attempts by the white House to shoot the messenger, send a very, very dangerous signal to the rest of the economy, not just the United States economy, but the world economy. And that is, you can't trust, the American dollar. You can't trust where the dollar is going. You can't there's nobody on the anti-inflation beach. There's no cop on the beach. And, this is all again, the markets are have reacted.

They will continue to react badly. When Donald Trump and to the extent that Donald Trump tries to, shut off information, or kill or shoot the messenger. And what do you make of his suggestion that public companies stop. reporting quarterly earnings and in fact, move to twice a year every six months? I mean, I think I know a lot of companies that would prefer that, but I'm curious to get your point of view.

John, honestly, there are very few things that I agree with. Donald Trump on. But that may be one I. when I, used to be much closer to watching the economy every minute. and I was labor secretary, and before that I was the at the Federal. Trade Commission, I actually suggested, that companies. have to take a longer term view of what they're doing. And these quarterly reports, forced them into a very,

a very, a very narrow, insular, and, a kind of, kind of a view. that that runs against the long term interests of the economy. So this is not necessarily a bad position to take. And the markets seem to have now. priced in the volatility, don't they? I mean, the stock market is up 15% this year. Well. it's a very. good question about whether they've priced in volatility. I don't think markets price in arbitrary and capricious.

and impossible to predict decision making. Volatility is one thing. Yes. I mean, there is going to be. a lot of volatility whenever there's any kind of a change in administration. Whenever there is, a lot of tumult in the world, given, Israel and given, Putin and given, everything else that's going on. But,

that arbitrary. and capricious decision making, really is something that. the markets cannot price in because again, it's, it's outside anybody's. control, outside anybody's potential vision. All that they're pricing in. And I worry that they're going to price in more and more of this is uncertainty. Robert. It's no secret that Donald Trump appears to have made at least $5 billion. in the eight months since he was inaugurated.

Any thoughts on his crypto holdings? This is pure corruption. Let's not beat around the bush. When history is written about this administration, one of the first lines in the first paragraph is going to be. about the extraordinary payoffs that were made to Donald Trump, some of them violating the emoluments Clause of the Constitution that says, you know, foreign powers cannot pay off a public official.

But some of them are just, nothing but, attempts to curry favor with Donald Trump. And crypto has opened the floodgates. to that kind of currying of favor. It is a scandal. But unfortunately, there's so many scandals with regard. to this administration, it's difficult to come out to really focus on one. Who should actually be policing that most effectively. It's not the SEC. Well, the SEC should be doing that.

And the Commodity. Futures Trading, Corporation could be doing it. The SEC is now run by a Trump. lapdog who has huge crypto holdings, and has basically allowed crypto to do whatever it wants to do. And the crypto industry has become so rich that it's paying off. members of Congress, in terms of campaign contributions, including a number of Democrats and so it is, you know, you have this kind of a doom loop with regard to what it can get away with.

So, you know, the whole thing, is a, a market, that is based upon, nothing but, expectations that some bigger fool is going to come along. and buy even more crypto that you can get rid of. So this is like the tulip, craze in Holland.

This is this is. this is just a matter of when is it going to explode? You know, we all remember what happened in 2008. with regard to, many, The credit swaps. Many, yes, many assets, on Wall Street. that were derivatives of derivatives and derivatives of derivatives. And you can't you can go for a while and you can build and build and build, but eventually, you can't and eventually somebody gets left holding the bag.

That's what's going to happen with crypto. But crypto is even worse because the only, purpose of crypto, as far as I can see, is illicit. Is hiding illicit, illegal, often immoral, transactions, that violate all sorts of international laws and rules. It also uses up a lot of, a lot of, a lot of electricity, a lot of environmental damage,

a lot of water, from areas of the country that don't really, have all that much, there's no redeeming social value in crypto at all. The subtitle for your book is a memoir of America. But. what is America at this point? What should we be most concerned about? Well, I am most concerned, Johanna, about the loss of freedom, the loss of our rights, constitutional rights,

everything from the First Amendment, the right to speak, the right to assemble, the right to due process, the right not to be arrested without due process, the right not to be disappeared off the streets without due process. We have a constitution that provides a lot of a lot of guarantees, a lot of bulwarks against a rogue government. We have a rogue government, but we also are discovering that we don't really have,

a mechanism, a set of mechanisms to guard those constitutional guarantees. The federal district courts have been doing, I think, a credible job. But it's very hard for individual judges. And the administration keeps on appealing those cases. The Supreme Court, who knows? I mean, it's so far they've allowed Trump to do pretty much. what he wants to do, beginning with, John Roberts.

Totally, on an indefensible position. that a president can get away with doing anything the president wants, as long as it's arguably, part of his official duties. But, there was also a. failure of the leadership class in America. And by leadership class, I'm talking about everyone from, the people who run media companies. to religious leaders,

to, people who are university. presidents who keep telling me they don't dare speak out. You know, there's a there's a kind of well, overall, fear. And that has been that it's descended upon people. who have responsibility in this country and respect their responsibility. Excuse me for expressing my view here, but their responsibility is not just. to their organizations, like ABC or CBS.

or Columbia University, or their law firm. They're they're a responsibility if they're a leader is true. leaders is to the country as a whole, including our democracy, including the rule of law, including the Constitution. And so that, to me, is also a, a real, a real concern. So you mentioned that university, presidents are telling you. that they're fearful, clearly, business leaders are fearful, too. I, I've had several conversations with prominent CEOs.

who just don't want to be, don't want their heads above the radar. How do we, or what. should leadership look like at this point? And, I mean, one of the complexities, I think, is that a he was Donald. Trump was elected. Right. And secondly, we say the First Amendment has been, attacked, but there are still plenty of people, us included, able to speak freely about what we're concerned is happening.

So how do you manage to balance all these contradictions? Well, I don't think there are many contradictions here. I mean, first of all, we don't have any idea. how much speech right now is being killed. We know that, a lot of people left, for example, CBS, CBS news, 60 minutes, they resigned. We know people resigned from the editorial board of the Washington Post. We know we can see the resignations. We just don't know what they have, agreed to suppress or what.

kind of suppression went on that, that that led them, to, resent resignation. So when you say we have free speech, I'm sorry. We just don't know how free it is right now. And, when we see Jimmy Kimmel and, you know, the the executives. of Disney and, and others, caving in, it's it's. a pretty awful, set of circumstances and an abdication of of responsibility.

I was talking recently. to a business leader who was very upset about what's going on. And I said to him, well, what are you going to do? Do are you going to put your name to a petition, or are you going to stand up and, and really be counted? And he said, oh no, no, I can't do that. I have too much at stake. And I said, what do you mean you have too much at stake? He said, well, I have, I have, I have, you know, deals that are pending. Well, the more people who have positions of responsibility. and positions of leadership, we say, well, I don't dare.

Let's put my head up because I, I'm going to be, you know, I'm fearful that I'm going to be targeted by this administration. They are complicit. They are enabling this kind of tyranny. So why don't the Democrats put together. a bunch of CEOs so there's some strength in numbers. and get them to speak out and say, this is unacceptable. Well, I wish the Democrats would, but Democrats themselves, if you're talking about congressional Democrats, many of them are nervous.

They depend on a lot of big money for their campaigns. They depend on CEOs and, Wall Street, they don't want to bite the hands that feed them. They certainly don't. want to put the the hands that feed them in an awkward position. So I'm not sure that a lot of Democrats have the will to do anything. like you're suggesting. Well, good Lord, if Democrats don't have the will to do it, then what is to become of us? Well, exactly. I mean, you know, the the,

there's an old saying, we are the leaders we've been waiting for. Right. It's a good phrase. You know, I never really paid much attention to that phrase. It's always seemed to me kind of idealistic, but at a time like this, it may be the case. It may be that we average people who are not not clothed, cloaked with the, you know, the, the, the offices of formal authority. who are not presidents and CEOs and, who are not, heads of organizations.

and, and members of Congress or, or, you know, the presidents of universities, maybe ordinary people have got to take more. leadership responsibility here in this crisis. This is a catastrophe. You you mentioned The Washington Post, you mentioned Jimmy Kimmel, and obviously the big four at Disney. And ABC, you mentioned CBS, all three of which, essentially legacy media. Is there an argument that actually those each of those brands,

are much less relevant than they were, and conversation actually has merely gone on to social media platforms. It's gone on to YouTube where you have a podcast, you have more than a million followers on your YouTube podcast, which, frankly, is more readers than the Washington Post has every day. So is this actually a sense that the media is just changing? The conversation is changing, and it's going elsewhere?

I mean, you think at the top ten podcasts who have crooked media. with speechwriters that used to work for Obama, you have the Midas touch. You hate Donald Trump. So it's not as if criticism of the president. and his cabinet is not out there. Well, a joint I wish I had, but what sounds like your optimism? But, I, I fear that we're on a. we're on a path now, that is very, very dangerous.

And, you know, it's a slippery slope in terms of where we are. I mean, if you talk about social media, who owns social media, I mean, you have Elon Musk and you have, you know, Jeff Bezos, who owns a lot of, I mean, Amazon itself, Amazon Prime, he's working on a big movie, with, With Melania, with the first lady. Melania. You know, you've got, Mark Zuckerberg. You've got a lot of people who have shown absolutely no courage.

Or even worse, they're they're giving, you know, they they're fighting. They're competing, to kiss Trump's derriere. I mean, you know, look at what the apple. The head of Apple gave him a solid 24 karat gold. What was that, a bribe? But, I mean, I don't even know it. Now, how to characterize that? So you are correct, to the extent that there are these fissures, these places, you know, I do my Substack every day,

and I try to do whatever I can, and but, but, but but these are the exceptions. Maybe they're green shoots of something in the future. I hope they are. But, it's not just the legacy media that have failed us. It is also, you know, these billionaires who are in charge. of a lot of social media who are going off into the dark side. Robert, what did you think when you saw the tech leaders like Mark Zuckerberg, like Sergei Brin, sitting at that table with Donald Trump?

I want to come on to the the dinner at Windsor Castle in a minute. Where where they were. sat again with Donald Trump, and this time the king of England. But what. did you make of that first tech dinner where they went around the table. and everybody was paying homage to the president? A pure greed. I mean, I don't think, you know, my my first impulse. was to say, well, you know, I've seen something like this before. I've been, at those dinners when I was Secretary of Labor.

I've been, you know, I've been surrounded by business leaders who they love. the pomp and the circumstance. They love to be invited to the white House. They love to feel important. But, with Trump, you have really only, it seems to me, one major incentive. And that is they don't want to be on his on his bad side. They don't want to, earn his wrath. They want to be on his good side. They want because he's such a, you know, he's. he's such an authoritarian and he's so unpredictable.

He is operating in a world in which he can say tomorrow. I really don't like you, Apple. And I'm going to do everything I can to undermine you. And suddenly Apple stock goes, you know, plummets. Well, that's. in other words, I understand. why these tech leaders and billionaires are, enabling him. But, I don't think they need to go nearly that far. I wish they had more backbone.

They're earning enough money. They don't have to be greedy. I wish they understood that they. This is a time for courage. This is a time where everybody in this country. who has any degree of responsibility, must exercise real courage. Free is not going to be kind to these people if they don't. So what what what I'm trying to to understand is if you're. Tim Cook and the practicality is you've got hundreds. of thousands of people working for you, you've got a massive global business.

What what else would should Tim Cook be doing? I mean, if the value to the president is having Tim Cook. sit there and say flattering things about you. Is that. actually just pragmatic business manners? Well, obviously a big piece of it is a business, but yes, business. It's my you know, Tim Cook's, stock options and the,

his fiduciary obligation to Apple shareholders. And I understand that, we're in a world in which, you know, shareholder capitalism predominates over what we used to have, which is stakeholder capitalism. But we also have enormous media consolidation. You know, in the 1980s, we had something in the order of, 95, 98 media outlets,

competing for about 90% of the media market. Now we're down to five big leviathans competing for 90% of the media market. So that combine those two, that degree of consolidation, a shareholder capitalism. and also the fact that, you've got an amazing amount of money at the top now, you know, these people like Tim Cook and Elon Musk and, and Jeff, Jeff Bezos, they are not just billionaires.

They are multi hundreds of billionaires. They are people who, have a lot at stake. And if I, if I were being very cynical. and I hate to even be this cynical, but I'm going to say it anyway. I'm not sure they have a deep, deep dedication to democracy. They may have so much money that they may worry about majority majorities. coming along and taking it away in terms of a wealth tax or something else. You know, you put these factors together, Q&A,

media concentration, shareholder dominance. and the wealth of the dominant people. in the media business and in many businesses. And you have a tinderbox, that can easily be lit up, by a demagogue like Donald Trump. So what would you have them do instead? How do you show leadership if you're trying, on the one hand, to balance a president, a capricious president and a cabinet?

This is unpredictable. I mean, you saw this weekend that the extraordinary you have Howard. Nick coming out and saying, oh, it's $100,000 for an HB one visa. And it's every year. And then you have the white House press secretary coming out and saying, no, no, it's a one off, and it's only for new visas. So there seems to be some chaos in the way. Obviously, things are being run. How should you manage this if you are managing a business?

I understand your point about shareholder value. and stakeholder value, but if you're in the realpolitik. of trying to manage this now, if you were Tim Cook, what would you do? Would you say, no, I'm not coming for dinner? Or would you. If I were Tim Cook, yes, I would not necessarily. Kisses Dari Arabi coming for dinner and I wouldn't give him gold. 24, you know, karat gold, awards. I would, get together with other CEOs quietly, and have a common front, have some agreement.

You know, we're in this together. The future of our democracy. is very intimately related to the future of our businesses, and vice versa. If I were a university president, if I were Harvard. Harvard is doing a pretty good job right now. But I'd get together with all other higher education. And so we have to have a united front, because this, divider in chief, this demagogue in chief is trying to divide us, and and divided. We are very, very weak. If we can get together with much stronger.

Same thing with law firms. Same with with with cultural institutions. Together. There is a possibility of, of of stopping this, but divided, there's almost no possibility. Everybody has an incentive to do the opposite. Everybody has an incentive to try to appease, this tyrant. Well, and the more you appease the tyrant, the more they come after. Right? I mean, that's the one thing history has shown us that actually, the worst thing you can do to a bully is give him the lunch money, because then the next day, he comes back and he wants twice as much.

Exactly. I mean, Neville Chamberlain, you know, made a point, historically that I think. that it's important for us to remember, you cannot appease a dictator. He does come back asking for more. And, the problem is, as long as he is able. to divide and conquer, then, everybody really becomes much, much weaker. Well, of course, what they say about academics is that the. the knives are so sharp because the stakes are so small.

The idea of pulling together a group of presidents of universities. who could agree seems somewhat fanciful. Do you think, realistically, you could do that? I love the notion of it as a as I do. Similarly, the idea of bringing all these tech. chiefs together, and yet the tech chiefs themselves are frequently suing each other. We know that lots of them don't speak to others, so it's not as if they have a I mean, they may be in the same business, but they have lots of things that would serve them well if another went down.

Aren't they all hoping that the spotlight trumps wrath. just falls on someone else, not them? Well, I think it's worse than that. You know, they're actually competing for his, for benefits from him. for for his, his his, you know, not their they're not trying to avoid his wrath. They're actually competing for his warmth. And, what you say about these institutions getting together, whether they're private sector, public sector, or not for profit.

You're you're absolutely right. Under normal circumstances, but we're no longer in normal circumstances. This is a national emergency. This is a, a catastrophe. Not only for the United States, but for the world. And if we have a leadership class in this, in this country, if we have people. who have positions of responsibility, their responsibility extends. It seems to me, in a crisis like this. to the nation and to the world.

What do you see? The worst impacts being right now. on global affairs and the shifting of the global order, which has suddenly been thrown into disarray by Donald Trump? Well, the same point, applies. That is, other countries have got to get together. And I think the European Union is doing a credible job. But the European Union needs to get together with Canada and Japan. and Australia and all of these countries that had.

traditionally been allies of the United States, where Donald Trump is making now. is basically saying you are no longer allies of the United States. They should ally themselves together, understanding. that, at least temporarily, they cannot rely on the United States. They are all, in some danger from Putin. They are some in some danger from she, they need to, they need to use each other. and rely on each other, rather than trying to,

I don't know, keep in the good graces of Donald Trump or avoid his wrath. I mean, again, this goes back to the same theme. You kind of cannot appease, a dictator. What was your thought when you heard that. Bob Iger, had made the decision with his. as he made it very clear to, to say, his number two, Dana Walden, to suspend Jimmy Kimmel's show indefinitely.

The does seem to have been a backlash to that. Today. We had 400 celebrities, signing, getting together and doing exactly what you say, complaining about the decision you've got people calling for a boycott. Oddly, late night comedians, not people that you would think. would have actually a close fraternity, seem to have gotten together. and supported Jimmy Kimmel. Does that decision do you think there is any way out of that. for Disney in a in a good way, for the freedom of speech at all?

Well, if Disney reversed itself and apologized and rehired Jimmy Kimmel. and said, we made a terrible mistake and we should not have been intimidated. by the FCC, that might be, helpful. But it may be too late for that. And by the way, for, for all these comedians to get together. and support each other is great, but I think more importantly, for people, average Americans who are, are really concerned.

and worried and, and, and feel afraid of what's going on. They should cancel their Disney Plus, Hulu, subscriptions, and instead, take the money and put it into public broadcasting. That's an interesting idea. Yes. I saw John Oliver on his HBO show last night. Was demanding people, cancel their subscriptions. But the idea of putting it into public, fully funded media is a great idea.

I can tell the quality of my WNYC in the morning. has been somewhat impacted, actually. I mean, these these public broadcasting stations. are, you know, in the big cities, in San Francisco, in New York, I think they'll they'll do fine. But it's the smaller cities, that really are being terribly impacted. Some of the public broadcasting has to be is being shut down or limited. So take your money away from Disney. Plus and Hulu and put it into public broadcasting.

You're in the Bay area, you live in San Francisco, which is a fascinating mix of California liberal politics. And then enormous wealth, enormous, concentration. of billionaires and, and tech overlords. What are you seeing politically from the Democrats. in that neighborhood that makes you feel hopeful, if anything? Well, you know, I love Nancy Pelosi, because she is a fighter.

She was the person who basically got a, convinced Barack Obama, to try for, the Affordable Care Act. And she doesn't let up. She's in her mid 80s, and she's continuing to fight every day. So there are a lot of fighters in the Bay area. They may be wealthy, but they still are fighting the good fight. For average working people. Are you seeing any Democrats breakthrough in terms of the next generation?

I appreciate your support for Nancy Pelosi, but she's definitely of a generation now that can't lead forward. I think. Yeah, well, there are others. I mean, Ro Khanna is a good friend and he is here in the Bay area. He is the Silicon Valley representative to Congress. And, there are many, many others. I'm actually quite encouraged about the back bench. of the Democrat Party, particularly if you include the governors. There's some very, very attractive the governors, out there.

And I don't mean only Gavin Newsom. I think JB Pritzker is doing a very, very good job. And, Wes Moore, is standing up, ironically, what Donald Trump is doing, with regard to, trying to squeeze the red state governors to get more, you know, more redistricting that. gives, the Republicans more seats in Congress for. The gerrymandering.

And also using Ice, raids in various places. I mean, he is, making some of these, Democratic governors, into really, he's pushing them into into heroic. kinds of positions where they're taking very tough stands. And I think that's going to, that's very important for the future. Talking about the future, you've just finished a documentary. about your many years as a teacher at Berkeley. What have you observed about students.

recently as opposed to when you started teaching? Well, that's a good question, Johanna. I love teaching. I, I really miss it. But I was I just had reached the point where I thought, I'm getting old and I can't do quite as well as I was doing before. And so, I should put a stop to this. Well, if I can just jump in here and say it's. a very good documentary, every teacher, I think, would love to watch this.

because your, your heart and your enthusiasm for teaching. comes over, as do the many students that come up to you and say, remember me? Class of 1969? And you're like, I have no idea about. Coming up to me every. Yeah, I have no idea who you are, but it's nice to see you. But it hasn't been a show, has been a change in students over the years. Well, in the night when I started to teach in the in 1981, the students were, you know, very, very excited,

and they had a lot of ambition. But I think that, the change I've seen my most recent, cohort of students, and I retired the year before last, but I'm still sneaking in and doing classes. The most recent cohort of students, I would say, if one can generalize about these things, I mean, generation is very difficult. to generalize, but Gen Z, we're talking about people. who are 50 years younger than I am or more,

they are understandably very worried. Not only about what's happening in the country and the world, very upset about, the loss of. or potential loss of freedoms in this country, extremely upset about what's happening in Gaza. And the, the enabling that America is doing and the, you know, giving Netanyahu, all of this, military might,

to undertake a form of genocide. Let's let's speak let's not mince words. So they are very, very concerned about that. And, they're also very activist. They are probably the most activist generation cohort of students. I've, I've, I've taught, and dedicated. I mean, they, they, I said. to a bunch of them, the other day, you know, you are. you are right at the, at the point where we're democracy.

and artificial intelligence and, and, and, and global climate change, you know, are all are all impinging on the existential future of this country. How do you feel? And they said, we feel excited and we feel, you know, revved up. And I said, well, that's good because we need you and we are dependent on you. And then I thought about it a little bit, and I said to them, you know, if everything were good, if everything were settled,

if everything were, you know, if we didn't have any problems. with, with climate change or democracy or artificial intelligence or. or nuclear proliferation or any of the other. nightmare scenarios that we have around us. It would be pretty boring for you, wouldn't it? I mean, you're starting your careers and they said yes. Yes, exactly. We are facing, the largest crises, in, in, in modern history. And they're excited by it and God bless them.

And how did they square them with this whole generation. that very much were brought to life by Charlie Kirk? Because you you're talking to one bunch of young people. But there's also another bunch of young people who are either. not in the college system or feel that the college system didn't listen to them. and are looking for leadership in a different way. Well, they're actually several different groups. If you want to drill down,

they're the non-college young people, and they really do have a reason to be upset. and angry about the fact that the system is rigged against them. I mean, if you don't have a college degree, it's very difficult. to get into the middle class, in this system, and only about. 40% of them have or will have college degrees, 60% of them don't. And they are in, at risk.

And then you have another group who are very, kind of religious and, evangelical. Some of them I know and, some of them are Trump supporters, some of them are had been Charlie Kirk supporters. They are, they feel marginalized in many campuses. They feel, that the country is, has, has rejected religion. And the data do show, a tremendous, tremendous drop in religiosity in the United States.

And, but I, you know, what I tell my students, and I truly believe it, Joanna, is the best way of learning. anything is to talk to people who disagree with you. And so I urge my students, to find. and even cherish, people who are of different views than they are. and sit down and have conversations and eloquent listening, actually listening eloquently what other people say,

and repeat what they say and try to understand. their arguments and try to understand where you might be wrong. Well, that is the art of learning. And the teaching is giving people that art of learning. So you've finished teaching. You seem more prolific than ever on Cafe Klatch. and your YouTube podcasts. What else are you doing? Do you have another book coming out? What is your how do you spend your time? Robert well, I do a Substack every day.

An essay. Some people say to me, you know, you're pushing 80 years old. How do you write every single day? And I said, well, what else am I going to do? And I have ideas for books. And we have, yes. I'm working with a very talented, group of young people, putting out, videos. My son Sam, about ten years ago, that got me interested in social media and, thank goodness, because I'm not sure. I would break through to young people if I were still writing books.

He was very he he was very kind of, if not a little bit condescending to me ten years ago. He's a dad, you know, if you really want to reach my generation, I respect you for writing all the books you've written. But, you know, we don't necessarily read that much. And after I got over my depression. and what he said, I, I did, with, with, with a few other people, we, we started this.

nonprofit called Inequality Media Civic Action and we, we do a lot of videos, and we do a lot of, a lot of other, movies and explainers. And I think that's how to reach a lot of young people. All right. So we have a lot of people that, watch the podcast, listen to the podcast, and I think it's fair to say. our feeling some despair and anxiety about where we are at the moment. As a final note, how would you encourage people to get involved.

to to get engaged in trying to change things? As you say, be the leaders that you want to have? Well, I say to people, number one, if you are despairing, depressed, angry, stressed, I completely understand. I mean, how can you not be, but activism, activism, being an activist against this kind of tyranny, is the best antidote to all of these feelings.

So get out there. I mean, you know, call your members of Congress every single day. Keep the white House and the congressional switchboard, totally occupied. Beyond that, go into your community and protect people who are very vulnerable. to the extent that you can, make bad trouble. Also, you know, right. The your members of Congress write your local newspapers, boycott, companies,

like we talked about ABC, you know, being an activist in terms of consumer, activism and consumer boycotts. You know, there's a long list and I've, on my Substack every, every month or so, I put out another long list of things that you can do. Nobody should feel that they have lack of agency. This is a time when we all have to be leaders. in terms of the mobilizing,

organizing, energizing people around us, who are even more demoralized or who, have decided that, the best strategy. is to keep their heads down and not even read the news. No, that's not the best strategy. The best strategy is to be an activist. Okay, well, I don't know if there are. any local newspapers left to write to, but I love your idea of, leaning into your. own agency and writing to your congresspeople.

They are one forgets that they are there to represent you. and that you can make a difference. Robert Reich, thank you very much. For what I know it's your very precious time. because you're now going off to write another Substack. You're going off to make another video. You're going off to lead another group of young people into the future. But we really appreciate you spending time with us. Well, thank you very much, Joanna. I appreciate. No signs of dementia.

with Robert Risch, even as he approaches his 80th birthday. And I can strongly recommend his documentary, The Last Class, in which he basically looks over his life as a teacher. And for anyone who's been a teacher who wants to be a teacher, it's a very moving, inspiring documentary. And I'm sure there are lots of students out there. who've been through his classes who will thoroughly enjoy this documentary. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us.

We appreciate your support. We are independent media after all. I'll be back tomorrow. with Michael Wolff for a second episode of Inside Trump's Head this week. Don't forget to share this podcast with your friends, with your enemies, with your colleagues at work. The point is to have a discussion. You can argue with us. That's absolutely fine, and please do in the comments. Or you can agree with us. That's nice too if you have been. We appreciate your support. And though we haven't seen her this week as the First lady would have us say beast!

Thank you to our beast members, Connie Rutherford, Karen White, and Heidi Riley. We appreciate your support and thank you to our production team, Devin Roger Reno, Anna Von Ersan, and our editor, Jesse Millwood.