Why Trump 'Reamed Out' Hegseth For Parade Fiasco | The Daily Beast Podcast

So fearful. Donald Trump, the monster that we are all afraid. of, is a true mix of metaphor. Paper Tiger. I'm Joanna Coles, chief content officer of the Daily Beast, and you are listening to watching. Possibly ironing your clothes to or walking your dog to the Daily Beast. podcast. Regular viewers will recognize that I am not in my usual habitat. Instead, I'm staying at the Carlton Hotel in the south of France in Cannes.

for the Cannes Lion Creative Festival, which celebrates marketing, advertising and creativity. So that's why I'm not in all the usual studio, but I am fixed on all things. America, not least, of course, Donald Trump's birthday parade. Who better to unpack it with? And our regular guest, who many of you love. and incredible comments from our last podcast together. The man who lives in Donald Trump's head. Michael Wolff. Michael, let's waste no more time.

Let's get into it. Okay, Michael, so much to discuss as always. And you're in Cannes. I'm in Cannes. Wish I were there, though. You don't wish you were here. I do, I do. I have been many times, and it's, you know, and it's the south of France. It's the south of France. Even even with people you detest. Which are most of the people who go to, Cannes Lions, it is nevertheless still the south of France.

Of course, all anybody is talking about here is Donald Trump. and the significance of Donald Trump. And I, I needs to make a quick apology, following all the comments we got from, our last podcast, because I misidentified Senator Padilla. I called him or Padilla, as you call him. I, called him Anthony instead of Alex. And I actually, I didn't realize that he was the senior senator from California. For some reason.

I thought Adam Schiff was because. Adam Schiff has been on the landscape for such a long time. I mean, but they're both new. Well, they're both new and relatively new in their Senate roles. And, is it Padilla or Padilla? You know, technically it's Padilla, but we're in America. People seem to refer to him as Padilla. Anyway, Senator Padilla, if you're listening. I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were the senior senator from California. And I also felt guilty, actually, to hyperbole about the state of chaos,

as I was referring to it in California, which many people pointed out. It's just not true. It's a small area of L.A. that's in lockdown, which makes it even more. egregious that Donald Trump has called in the National Guard. over the head of Gavin Newsom, who we spoke to last week. Anyway, I want you to address those comments. because many of you wrote in and you're perfectly you're perfectly right. So let's get that out of the way. And then we have another very nice comment about your bookshelf,

which I'm going to come to right at the end of this podcast. But obviously this weekend it was the birthday parade, and I am unbelievably curious to find out what you thought of it. And then, as importantly, what the man. whose birthday parade it was thought of it too. None other than our own president, Donald Trump. What are you what are you hearing? What are people saying? Yeah. You know, it's it's really important to understand,

when we think about Donald Trump, how much time he spends complaining, I mean, nothing makes the man happy. And spending $45 million on a birthday. celebration, appears not to have made him happy, either. He's kind of pissed off. I mean, he's pissed off at the soldiers. I mean, he's accusing them of hamming it up. And but, you know, and and by that, he seems to mean that, that they were having a good time, that they were waving, that they were,

that they were enjoying themselves. and showing a convivial face. rather than a military face. Interesting. And he kind of reamed out Hegseth for this. Apparently there there was a phone call and he was in, he said, and he said to Haig says, you know, the tone was all wrong. Why was the tone wrong? Why? Why what what who staged this?

There was the tone problem. You know, Trump, he keeps repeating himself. So that was the word on that on that phone call was tone. I would interpret that he, you know, he wanted something. menacing, I suppose, you know, something military, like something like, you know, we're. we're this is this is the most staggering force in the world. And maybe it will come for you instead of, you know, I think it appeared.

to a lot of people that this was that there was a kind of festive air. Everybody was was actually. celebrating, celebrating something, you know, the the 250 years of the US military, probably celebrating that more than Donald Trump's birthday. But it didn't send the message that he apparent really wanted, which is that that he was the commander in chief of this,

of this menacing enterprise. Well, certainly having soldiers dressed up in costumes from 200 years ago. would not send a menacing vibe to an enemy. If they were looking at this, I thought it had the vibes of a sort of trade show. A trade show for the army, that the plinths that they were sitting. on, this sort of, theater that the, VIPs were sitting.

on, that Donald Trump was sitting on with next to us and, and, Melania, it looked like it had been put up overnight. And it literally looked like something from a trade show. Yeah. No, no, I mean, it was not none of this was sending the message. that he seems to have wanted to send, which is that this which was a threat. I think that's what he wanted. And he got the opposite of that. He he got a kind of, you know, a kind of a Hampshire gathering.

Right? Which, by the way, no one went to the other thing. So. So he's insisted, you know, put it out. He said 250,000 people. Stephen Chang put that out. Yeah, but but that that was from Trump. Put it out 250,000. That is it. 250,000. He kept he kept saying this, you know, to everybody else saying but but 250,000. when in fact it was I mean the people I know there.

who were there said at tops, tops. maybe 40,000 and probably more like 20,000, you. Could see the empty bleachers. You could see as the drones pulled back. Lots of empty lawn. You couldn't. Yeah. No, I mean, nobody nobody was. I mean, who would go. Yeah. No, I mean, let's I mean, it's hard to get anybody a draw to any parade. It's a parade. Well, I, I couldn't imagine. the I mean, as a parent of two boys, when they were little,

I could imagine having taken them to that because they would be intrigued. by watching the men. March. By I mean the thing I found most striking, and I admit, I come from a land where I'm not sure, but Britain could, do very much militarily now, but we sure can put on a good parade. And so the one thing that you can see is all the soldiers marching in time. And the thing I found really striking was that lots of them, of the. the brigades in camo, literally went in with each other.

And I think we're very bad at parades. I think parades are like one of those old fashioned. entertainment, things like circuses. I mean, you know, we've we've, the, the television. has basically put those things out of business a long time ago. But this was a producer. My understanding is that the Pete Hegseth knew who put the thing together. I mean, I don't know why Mark Burnett wasn't involved. in putting something together that felt more professional.

Yeah, well, it's. not even the professional thing that I think is is is most interesting. that somehow they didn't get the memo from Trump. that he wanted threat and menace, and they and they got the opposite of that. Nice. They got nice. The military's a nice military friendly. We're going to throw sweets into the crowd, which is of course, what they do. And do you think that was a deliberate.

misinterpretation of his message? Was this actually quite a smart, subversive take on his message, or do you think it was just accidental? But they really didn't understand. No, I think it probably was subversive or better heads prevailed. On this as a branding exercise. You know, I mean, Trump's. Trump's thing, I think, is to think of the military like we thought of it. in the, in the, in the 1950s and 60s when Russia was the, the enemy.

And it was a Cold War enterprise. And it was sort of Doctor Strange love again and, you know, and we were always, you know, the the guys in the military. were always ready to bomb someone back into the Stone age. And, and that and it was a threatening force then, which I think was was very difficult.

And many politicians found it very difficult to contain. But the military has changed radically since then. I mean, it's it's now a sort of, you know, very, very PR aware, h r aware kind of, you know, they bring in McKinsey consultants or all the, all the time. I mean, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a. it's a much more corporate. So I mean, for better or worse,

corporate image conscious. And die basically complex organization. And I think that's what we saw out there, yesterday. And that's not what Trump wanted to see. I don't think he understands. That's what the military has become, although, you know, in every situation. which he's in, which he's faced with, with the military,

the the top brass, he's always complaining about it. They're always pulling out PowerPoints to show him. And he's always leaving the room because you can't watch a PowerPoint. Right. Well, and and you think, you know, obviously. the future of military is much more technical. It's much more cyber. It's relying on drones. I mean, it was hard not to listen to that tank. creaking in the silence down the street because nobody was cheering.

That that it was like watching. fax machines roll by in the age of the eyesight. Yeah. No, I mean, I think that that it is. I mean, he is again, you know, Trump is located somewhere in the past. You know, I've, I've often put it as 1965, all of his references, and, and and I think this again, he, he expected to see that kind of military. and said he got, you know, the modern, the modern military,

a complex organization with all kinds of concerted issuances, very aware of, of of how. it is perceive, of how it wants to be perceived. Yeah. Well, I loved the robot dog, but but what I. was struck by was a watching. him watching the parade, and he looked bored. I mean, this is a long time for Donald Trump to sit still. Other the one he was jumping up and saluting.

Melania looked bored, Marco Rubio was yawning, and Pete Hegseth just looked extremely anxious. to be sitting there next to the president in charge of this parade. Well, again, it's parades. Americans don't watch parades. Parades are actually boring. They're repetitive. They go on forever and ever there. There really is no narrative. It's all it's all old fashion.

There's no narrative. It reminds me, actually, of, I think the second time Obama, Obama's. second inauguration, he had to sit there watching all these little bands. from small town America, and he was wildly chewing gum to keep himself, I think sort of focused, but. Well, I was also struck that they're sitting there. watching this parade, as you say, with no narrative whatsoever. Well, the narrative playing out in the Middle East is Israel. and Iran going at it and actual warfare.

going on while Trump is cosplaying. Being commander in chief. Goes further than that. This war is taking, taking place and we are irrelevant to it. We were not even. even if Trump is rushing forward to kind of try to claim. some kind of influence in this thing, he had no influence in. In fact, it was basically against him.

Basically, he got played. They used him. The Israelis appear to have used him as cover, his career carrying on in negotiation, which. which was seeming to go to go nowhere. and, and the theory was that that would go. that Israel would not attack until after that gambit was played out. And of course, they, they did attack, shocking no one so much as Donald Trump.

Oh my goodness. So he's now it feels like trying to muscle himself into relevancy by claiming. that he stopped them from assassinating Iran's leader, the Ayatollah Khomeini. Is that is that likely to be true, do we think? No, I think it's it's completely not. And I think they will. As if they can. They will assassinate him. So what is Donald Trump now doing? He's gone to the G7.

We're recording this on a Monday. It will air on a Tuesday. What are his advisers? Marco Rubio, the secretary of state's. advisors, doing at this moment? Well, let's use the the word advisors loosely around Donald Trump. because because a he doesn't take advice, and be the people who are there. to theoretically offer advice,

don't, you know, are kind of dummies themselves. They have no advice, really, to offer. And this would be his his golf buddy who he talks about in the last podcast. Steve Wyckoff, the supposedly the special envoy to the Middle East. Yes. I mean, I think there there are other people hovering around there too, trying to trying to, trying to get close, you know, they all they all they all. kind of form a little scrum around Donald Trump because proximity literally,

you can measure it in inches is is the currency there. But but I think and I think what the world is seen and, and you can see, see a transformation that has gone on here in the first, early months of this, this new administration, everybody seemed kind of the world seemed kind of stricken. What was he going to do? What moves was he going to make?

What ways, what ways would he destabilize the world order? And I think now people are starting is starting to say, well, he can't do it because he, he, he I'm not going to do anything because he knows nothing. I mean, it's very hard to make moves. in a complex situation when you don't have the details, the facts. You don't really have command of what's going on on the ground. And, and I think more and more, this becomes the, the critique,

a potent critique and an accurate critique of the Trump administration. They're they're they're completely incompetent. They just have they just know nothing. They bring no facility to think things through, to make a plan. to have a strategy. You know, so the tariffs, you know, he can proclaim tariffs. without evidently realizing that that would have a profound effect.

on the world's economy, a negative effect which would come back and bite him. in the ass. So therefore, okay. Yes. To take those tariffs, tariffs today. No tariffs tomorrow. Now we're just dealing with the same the same thing on on on this. this order of these, this plan of mass deportations. He appears not to have been aware that this would that this would include. overwhelmingly include people in the agricultural sector.

in and in hotels and restaurants, all of which he, you know, in. as a or a substantial part of his. of his coalition and a substantial part of the U.S. economy. And he figured this out, apparently, yesterday. Rollins, the agriculture minister, is supposed to have called him. and said, you need to stop the Ice.

raids on farms because 60% of laborers are not turning up. Fruit is going unpicked and rotting in the fields. And so he then announced that he was, sort of putting a halt on farm workers, hotel workers and restaurant workers. Clearly, I'm sure some of his donors who own hotels. and own restaurants were saying, what are you doing? And he must know to a someone that's run construction, that's run restaurants. and hotels that immigrants make up a large part of the taxpaying workforce.

Well, he clearly did not know that. or he clearly did not, did not think that through. So which is even more disturbing. So even stuff that he that he knows or should know, he doesn't appear to know. If he's, he's making his sort of statements out here. and there's no connection to real life whatsoever. Again, which goes back to what you're always saying. He's playing a president on television. This is a television show with no actual consequences in real life.

And this is so it's it's very important and very interesting to get to that, to get to that point where I think lots of people are starting to realize this, so fearful Donald Trump. that they this, this, this, you know, monster that we are. all afraid of is a to mix a metaphor paper tiger. Right. There is no follow through because there can't be a follow through.

If you haven't if you have, if you don't have a plan. other than the announcement of a plan, right, you're kind of screwed. I mean, what do you what are you going to do when the plan kicks in? And, and it starts to backfire on you, which all of these things do. And by the way, that has also happened clearly. in, in, in, in a full range of his foreign policy, actions, nothing happens. So we have Ken Griffin,

big supporter of Donald Trump, saying at the time of the tariffs, America. has lost 20% of its value, which seems. an astonishing legacy for Trump. So he's now. redirected ice into the Democratic cities, he says, partly punitive, because, of course, we haven't even spoken about the King's protest. And I know you went on your own protest with your children. in East Hampton, which I want to come to next.

And now we're hearing that ice is actually running out of cash, that they can't just keep on supporting these sort of, mass roundups of people. So will this stop inevitably to. Yes. Another instance of not thinking through this. Oh, we're going to do this. And it costs a lot of money, right? I mean, yeah, all of this, the idea of mass. deportations is, is just a thing. I mean, it's it's like, you know, building a wall, right?

Which we haven't done. And are we and we are not going to do, it is it, it it is a very complex, expensive, complex. undertaking with a lot of a lot of cores and effects that you have to think through. because it's going to, it's going to, impacts. so many other things that are that are vital to people. And, you know, there was a there was a,

a piece and I should remember where and I don't remember, you know, basically say saying that, that a great many people, in the, in the country approved. of, of the things that Donald Trump says he wants to do. But, but a great many people even. more, found. that found we're troubled by his methods.

I mean, so you you have these this this major, this major clash. It's it's this is kind of kind of reality and illusion. He creates the illusion. The reality is something that doesn't work. that people don't like and that, see, has to be reversed. Right? So. So why does this leave Stephen Miller and all this? Because Stephen Miller is sort of saying we need to deport 3000 people. an our he's he's laying down quotas.

He's the one that was supposed to be saying, you know, in, in Trump one, we didn't really know what was happening. We didn't know how to get ready for it. We didn't know the system. We've come back, we know the system. Now we're going to get things done. And Stephen Miller appears to be. the engine behind the ice. Strategy. It's one of one of the things that happens. And, and we've we've talked about this this before.

Trump, who is lazy, lets other people be in charge. until until they are perceived. as being in charge and then they are no longer in charge. So Stephen Miller is making a mess of this, and he will at some point. fall foul of Trump and be dispatched a bit like Elon at Doe. Yes. And also that that happened in the first administration. You know, remember in the early days of.

of of of Trump, one, there were, you know, the, the, the Muslim bans and, you know, and there were pandemonium at the airport. that was Stephen Miller and and that had to be reversed. That was Bannon to Bannon and Miller. And that was immediately shortly thereafter reversed. You remember that the instance of babies being snatched from their. their mother's arms again, Stephen Miller and that's, that's.

that's that cause, you know, one person in the East, in the, in the inner circle who I know to describe, describe this. as Steven's masturbatory fantasies of, of immigration and deportation. So there there is an awareness. that Stephen Miller is a problem. And even Trump, Trump calls him Weird Stephen.

Weird Stephen because he is weird, by the way. I mean, but you can't spend the moment with him and not saying, oh, something off here. And what is that to do with what? He doesn't keep eye contact. He looks very gray. But that's not enough to say he's weird. What? What constitutes the weirdness other than wanting to deport every immigrant? Yeah, he doesn't make eye contact. And then he talks to you in this, in this, in this monotone voice, and and it,

and it feels very heavy, you know, the, the engine keeps the. and the engine of his voice keeps, keeps going and you kind of step back. Okay. Well, that's definitely not a cell for Stephen Miller, but. So so okay so watch this space on Stephen Miller. as ice all starts that as everything about ice on the roads. Now a noise a lot of Republicans who have supported Trump up until now. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he has to, you know, and even when this began,

when the administration began and another person close to Trump. who I who, you know, I said, okay, what's going to happen here with this? And then, and it was this person was very straightforward. Well, they'll try to deport everybody until the headlines get too bad. And then and then we'll move on to something else. So where, Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson. are now in terms of Trump's, you know, which one does Trump currently favor?

I know Steve Bannon is out to the left, but he's frantically trying to get in. again to fill the gap that Elon has left. And then you've got Tucker Carlson talking about the war. That's the the the crisis. I think that's going to occur basically this week. Trump has to decide. I mean, there's going to be there's there is already enormous pressure. around Trump for to for the U.S. to give Israel its.

I this it's, you know, deep penetration. bunker bombs and a lot of support for that in the Republican leadership, a lot of support to to go in behind behind, Israel in this in this, you know, death battle it seems with Iran. But that. and hold on the bunker bombs are the bombs that are supposed to take out. the military sites, the nuclear sites that are buried deep within the hills.

Exactly, exactly. And only that we have, Israel doesn't have that that capability apparently. So that is. But this is deeply, deeply, deeply opposed by the, the the the core MAGA faction, which would, you know, I think is most publicly represented by Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson. And they don't want any they don't want any military involvement.

or they they don't want us to give the bombs or they. Don't want to see I well, I think they want nothing that's, you know, it's a this is a, you know, they are classic, classic isolationists, you know, and they're the America first. And then Trump came out, said, well, I said this was, you know, another Trumpian, Trumpian thing. Well, how do they know what American First is? Because I made up the term right. I saw that in the Atlantic, right. That if I made up America first. So I must know what America first means.

I define it, I get to define it. Yes. And just to obviously make the point, he did not make up America First. That America first was a was a very potent. right wing conservative movement before the Second World War. Right. But he he went no bat, of course. So he, he so maga doesn't want any involvement. Do we have any sense of of and again, I can hardly believe I'm. asking this question. of what Trump actually thinks would be the right thing to do here.

I mean, he thought the right thing to do right up until. until this, this invasion began. He thought he would be able to squeeze the Iranians for a deal. And then and then everybody would say, oh, he got a deal. I mean, this is the thing. I mean, which which he is essentially, essentially promising around the world, I'm going to solve all the problems because I'm going to make a deal. He has yet to make a deal. Right. And all the deals he promised, none of none of which have come true.

And does he have a sense of this? Is he feeling, humiliated at all by, you know, obviously. he promised he could say he could solve the Ukraine and Russia within a day. He said within 24 hours I could get that done. Does he have any sense whatsoever of his empty bragging and boasting? Are you really asking this question? If he. did have that sense, he would not be Donald Trump.

So the secret of being Donald Trump is to have, a no self-awareness, and, and be always to assume it is someone else's fault, always 100% of the time. He he will always blame somebody else. He will never accept blame, never accept full never accept failure. All right. So we've got a big week ahead of us, which obviously we will be coming. back to you to, to discuss.

I want to read a comment that someone left, which I thought was very well observed. This is by someone called adventure. Charlie 868366I love when you have Michael on, but I'm always so troubled by his bookcase. Norman Mailer in five different locations. And actually, as you're sitting there, I can see a Norman Mailer right behind you, Bernard. Norman Mailer in five different locations, like sprinkles on a cake. Bernard Malamute in three different locations,

a lovely addition of 100 Years of Solitude. It's obvious Michael is a voracious reader. I wish you would do a video just on that alone. Well, I would, I would one of the problems with maintaining. a library is keeping books in place so they get scattered. They did begin at at various points. They are actually alphabetized correctly. But. Well, you add new editions, new versions, new books, and then it's all thing.

But if people use you and Victoria, your wife has sort of launched. a new Instagram page, which I feel we should just at least mention for people. who are intrigued by the different backgrounds. that we interview in, in your lovely house in the mountains. Well, it's called. Our, my. So my wife Victoria, who does in. and when I do, I do this Instagram account and she does all, all of the work. She does basically everything.

The set dress, she does that. Thing. I just step in and do my, you know, my say my piece. But but, and people seem as, as, as in actually. perhaps even more interested in the, in the settings in the background, than they, than they do in what I have to say about Donald Trump. So she's just started a, her own Instagram focused on the house. and the garden called our Amagansett home or house our Amagansett home.

I think it is. Well, you can find it on Michael Wolf NYC and Instagram. because there's some sort of cross connection to it. But I wanted to call it out. because I think people are intrigued by your bookshelf. And at some point we should do a podcast exclusively on your books. Which ones mean the most to you, which ones you like, which additions? All of that. But that's for another day. In the meantime, I'm obsessed by what you, by what you intuit over.

what's happening with Donald Trump and also that what people tell you. And we're looking to a complicated week. Well, all weeks, of course, all Donald Trump weeks are complicated weeks. And in part. because of this Trumpian thing of of everything changes. Everything changes on a dime. Because how do you deal with the fact that this didn't work out? Well, you just do. start, start, launch something else that's not going to work out.

Yeah. I mean, no one's talking about Doge anymore. Gavin Newsom has his moment, but now it looks like, well, the National Guard is still in that tiny quarter of downtown electric. Correct, as. Far as I understand. But you you've now, you know, you move on. Right? This is in, in a way, the secret of Trump's survival, right? The narrative just rolls on to something else. All right, Michael, great to talk to you as always. If you have a comment on what Michael said.

here, please feel free to leave it on YouTube. We love to read them. And, and you were right. I got Alex Padilla's first name wrong. He's not called Anthony. But we've corrected it. That's the point of the comments, Michael. We will talk to you very soon. See you. I totally forgot to ask Michael. about his taking his little children. to a protest in East Hampton, of all places.

We'll do that on the next podcast. Thank you for joining us. Please feel free to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. and The Daily Beast itself for updates of what's going on. We are independent media. We love your support and we love your comments. I try and read as many of them as I possibly can, and I answer as many as. I can to, but we love hearing from you and don't forget the times call for it. Beast. This podcast was produced by Devin Roger Reno and Anna Von Erson, and it was edited.

by Jesse Millwood.