Why This Trump Leak Is The Most Devastating Yet | The Daily Beast Podcast

This is a portrait of a west wing where it is all going wrong. Donald Trump is in the Oval Office. shouting, swearing, screaming and powerless with rage. Is kind of like King Lear. He's a ranting, mad king. And it's all because, as you say, of this war, which he started, we're getting leaks because this West Wing, this administration, the staff around Donald Trump don't know what to do. They are talking endless, or they are gossiping endlessly. about the craziness of this.

I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. It's Friday, so it means our executive editor is here with me to debrief on the week. What happened to those four military who died. after our bombing in Iran campaign? Where have they gone? Because they no longer are on the Pentagon website. They've literally disappeared for Gold star soldiers disappeared. What's happened to the Tate brothers?

Who's challenging Darlene Graham in the most nepo of all elections for senator? There's so much to discuss. And Laura Loomis documentary. Can you believe this? Her documentary on Ukraine. She's had a 180 turn and now says that America must support Ukraine. And it turns out that MAGA is following her. So an unexpected week. Just a very big thank you to all of you who've subscribed.

This week we hit the milestone of 700,000 subscribers. Thank you so much. We love your comments. We love the fact you subscribed. And this is why we can have these conversations. Because we are independent media and we rely on your support. Okay, you tell me everything. Hugh. Oh my God, Joanna, what is going on with your hair? Oh, Huey, this is just what we ladies do.

I've been taking tips, though, to be fair, from the Daily Beast's favorite reader. Oh, I, I think I can guess who you mean, although I didn't know about it, I do. You know who I mean? Let's see what she's been doing this week. What's your question? Okay, my question is, what is something about you. that nobody knows other than the people that are close to you? I don't.

Are you a funny person? Have you a boring person? I don't think people realize that I am silly. I'm funny. I think from a scale of 1 to 10. Well, because when I'm out at the podium, I'm, like, getting after it. But I'm not like that in real life. So, you know, you just have to get to know me, to know the real me. She's actually a total dork, Huey. When I'm doing the podcast, I'm like, let's get to it. But really, I'm kind of fun and a bit of a dork.

What is she doing? She is the press secretary, and tonight she has the white House. Correspondents Dinner, which has been shrunk because of. Well, we can talk about that later. All of this later? Yes. Because you were in the room. next door to the assassin was famously, famously, famously. But this I mean, the white House press secretary is sitting around. doing her hair, finding time to do TikToks and Instagram. Reels while the president is wrestling with a war.

he started against his bases wishes, and which he cannot find a way out of. And his enemy knows that. Right? It's this is a portrait of a West wing where it is all going wrong. We have been learning this morning about what's going on in the Oval Office. at the same time as Caroline Leavitt is getting her hair done and giggling, Donald Trump is in the Oval Office shouting, swearing, screaming and powerless with rage.

He's kind of like King Lear. He's a ranting, mad king. And it's all because, as you say, of this war, which he started. So there's also something going on here, because for the longest time, actually, we didn't get that many leaks from the white House. And Susie Wiles is chief of staff. First woman chief of staff. was supposed to have clamped down on leaking. because we remember from the first administration there were tons of leaks. It was just like a sieve. That was so much information.

And at the beginning of this administration, they only leaked by accident, like when he managed. to put his military classified information chat on signal. But what's going on now? Because it feels chaotic, it feels like this is out of control. Donald Trump has no idea what to do. He's throwing tariffs back around. despite the fact the Supreme Court said no more tariffs, dude. So it seems like you say he's a mad king. He seems like a president out of control.

Yes. This is absolutely the these leaks are the sign of a West Wing. with things, as I said, are going wrong, but also for the control has been lost. You're absolutely right. Susie Wales was supposed to keep it all button down. And yeah, the first few months. certainly maybe the first year, but definitely the very first. few months of this administration, we didn't get a lot of leaks. And now we have a gusher. We have a gusher, a gush, I would say of all. But of course you can't get all anymore.

Can you? And it's over fences. A nobody can afford to afford the Royal anymore. $100 a gallon for for the key measure of oil. That's what Donald Trump had said. Oh, I will go back down. Everything will be fine. It hasn't. Gas will go back down. Everything will be fine. It's over $4 a gallon again and it is going up. And yeah, we're getting leaks because this West Wing, this administration, the staff around Donald Trump don't know what to do.

They are talking endless. So they are gossiping endlessly about the craziness of this. I thought that Michael Wolff's point about Lindsey Graham, that Lindsey Graham was in public slavish to Donald Trump, but in private he was a source for almost everybody. And telling people, I'm now wondering, who is the leaker in the white House? Caroline, in between hairdos, you might want to find that out. Well, they are taking this idea that was leakers in the white House.

so seriously that they've asked people to hand over their phones. Cash. Patel has been involved in this. Oh, do you think Cash Patel is leaking? I have no idea, Joanna, but I'm sure he can look to the president straight in the eye. and tell him that he is not leaking straight in the eyes, his big, big eyes. His eyes that always seemed to be like. And the hunt for this, this idea that there are leakers is has animated. Donald Trump since the moment that he came down the golden escalator. Do you think it's him leaking about himself that we know?

And because we know he used to do we know we know that he used to do it. We know he used to be John Barron. We know from, you know, every every book that's been written about him, that he has been a source of many of these leaks. I'll just say we don't know, obviously, what the source of the latest leaks are. I think what we can say is that these leaks don't offer anything. positive for Donald Trump. The idea that Donald Trump is in the Oval Office shouting. that the Iranians are effing scumbags, effing lunatics, and that the only option.

is to go and bomb them harder and harder doesn't reflect well on Donald Trump. This isn't a strategic mind. It could also be Donald Trump, as we know. when he's not in the Oval Office or is not on the golf course. And obviously he spends a lot of time on the golf course. He's always on the phone to a circuit of people, and we've talked about him. Anthony Scaramucci talks about when he was on the rotor of phone calls. So it's possible that he's telling people and saying,

oh, you know, they're just scum. I can't bear the Iranians. They're just terrible. And that's how it also gets out, because the people he calls then tell journalists and other people, right. Of course. And one of the I think the whole mark of this Trump administration. the second time around is that his phone habits are out of control. We had testimony, I suppose, is one way to put it. this week from Tom Hallman, who is the border czar. I think people will be familiar with this. I think he's he's nicknamed Mr.

Dorito. Right, because he was allegedly bought take him $50,000. in cash in a bag of Doritos in which the FBI was investigating. And Donald Trump shut that right down. And I just a small observation. I've never, to my knowledge, seen $50,000 in cash, but it fits in a bag of Doritos. Kind of surprising. It could have been a family pack, could have been a family. that could have been in hundreds with those different flavors. You know, it's it's surprisingly small $50,000.

in when you say in hundreds, I'll take you a word for it. Tom Hallman described how Donald Trump phones him at 2 a.m. and three m, and these are not casual conversations. He is dictating policy. He is telling he Donald Trump is the chief executive. He is telling the people who work for him what to do. Now we know The Daily Beast. We have relentlessly chronicled the unhealthy. of doing your business at two and three and four in the morning. That's what Donald Trump is doing, is falling, people.

Marco Rubio has said he phones two in the morning. They all complain. about going on the plane with him because they say they can't get any sleep, and now they're complaining about going on the plane with him. because the new plane doesn't have enough security. They're also increasingly. the target of potential assassination attempts. And we've got a fascinating insight. And again, this has leaked. This is, you know, a matter of of security. And people in Washington, DC are obsessed by security and always say,

oh, we don't talk about security. We know more about the security questions over this white House. and the people around it. And we've ever known before, ever at this time, we learned that they were being told not to take those courses to. Trump, are being told not to take car services in case the Iranians use that to. target them and just say it kinda speaks to the out of touch. of this white House that people in it are using car services. Well, what would you want them to use? Well,

the does an. excellent bike share scheme in Washington DC, which I've used. Washington DC has an excellent metro system which with all. that would make them even more targets, wouldn't it, if they if they're being followed. I mean, is the after after the targeted? This is a question, but the fact that they are routinely seeing their commute. through the elitist, you know, way of getting around behind, behind smoked glass, driven. in the back seat, these are not people that are in touch with ordinary people.

And I think this speaks to a very, very important point. about what's happening inside this administration. They appear to have lost touch with ordinary concerns. Donald Trump, remember, said he did not care about inflation. And if you are living in an elitist world as he does, he's a billionaire. He's always flown in always. But he's thrown in his own private jet for decades. If you are beginning to live in that sort of world, how do you stay in touch with what normal people experience?

But just. in terms of the vulnerability of his aides and the people who are supposed to be. targeted, is the idea that the Iranians are somehow in their cell phones. knowing when their car is going? I think I mean, what is the point? What is the point of failure here, that the Iranians. are following people's routines? Well, there's long been suggestions, claims, allegations. that Iran has sleeper cells in the United States.

And let's be honest. They've never been activated. So we don't know. But there have been people who have been prosecuted. There have been attempts to murder the enemies of Iran on American soil before. The point of failure here would be you can work out where. a member of Trump's inner circle is from their cell phone communications. with a car service, as opposed to a not a government car service. Or one assumes Uber Lyft are probably more secure.

because you're not doing an open text messages. The ability to infiltrate phones is something they believe the Iranians. have, and the casualties in the Middle East. Among the concerns that exist about that is that it's entirely possible. the Iranians are using sale site location of American cell phone numbers. to work out where they should target their missiles. Can I just say I used to have a car service when I worked in fashion, especially during the fashion shows, and it was a it was a wonderful thing.

I had a driver called Serge, who was from the Russian military, who always managed to get the nearest possible parking space. when you were coming out of the show, so you would come running out of a show. because you had to go to the next one. They were very badly scheduled and Serge would always be there in the front car. He was a miracle worker. Anyway, that's beside the point. So, more targets on Americans. And yet, what is this story that we had this morning.

that there were fewer military deaths now than there were last week? Four deaths have disappeared off the Pentagon website. Well, as we know, since this, these hostilities started back at the end of February, the United States has lost 18 members of the armed forces. And that's, you know, that's a group of people who, in ordinary.

times, would be honored as war dead. And this morning or late last night, we were on the latest four casualties had disappeared from the Pentagon's. website, which displays them as, you know, as casualties. And people rightly want to know who has sacrificed themselves, who have given their lives their last measure of devotion. And we suddenly have this disappearance. And the reason that the Pentagon has given is extraordinary.

It is that, in fact, the United States was not at war with Iran at the time. So these are not wartime casualties. This was because we had a cease fire, because there was a cease fire in place, and because the six because the president had written to the Congress and said, oh, we're not war anymore, and therefore any casualties are not of war. So is this just a fudging to make it look like there were a few occasions. than there actually are, I think, yes. And I think also did they think nobody would notice?

What about the parents of the four people that have disappeared? These are Goldstar parents who are being told that they are not Gold Star parents. I mean, I don't think you can get any more foundling disturbing. And is that appreciating the warrior class out there. with your vaccination to give everybody extra testosterone? How does this honor the warrior? Well, I mean, quite clearly, Joanna and veterans are talking about that this morning. It doesn't the you know, I think one of the.

the hallmarks of the United States way of life is to honor the war dead. Right. And the process, their dignified transfer, which not every country has. and which is an amazing, an amazing thing to thank people for the ultimate duty. Yes. And I think for many presidents, it has been a humbling woman. and an encounter between them and the ultimate price that the decisions. they have made that are draw on people.

who work for the United States, they don't work for the president. The president's the commander in chief. They work for the United States. They work for every one of the United States, 360 million citizens. And that moment at Dover, where they see. those those coffins being unloaded, is profoundly emotional. But it is a profound moment of recognition that this is a country. that believes in honoring those people, to remove that those names. from that rule of honor is it's just astonishing. And I should say, sitting with these names in front of me so that I get them right.

But in the last, in the last week, the United States has lost four soldiers. Private Isabella Gonzalez, 19, from Texas, Texas, Sergeant Angel. Rampersad, who was from Queens in New York, tenant Tyler Feehan, who was from Hawaii, and Sergeant Michael Swinton, who was killed. I'm just point out here, the first three casualties. were killed by a missile strike.

Sergeant Swinton was disposing of a drone. And in Iraq, both of these places, the first. the missile strike was in Jordan. The drone strike was in the rack. This is not a military that the Iranian military is not a military. that has been degraded to the point of which it cannot attack Americans. In fact, it killed four of them. And that's that's why Trump is raging in the Oval Office. And they're pretending that, oh, if we just don't count them and we come up. with some nonsensical word salad about, oh, we weren't really at war.

The point is, these men and women would not have died. had Trump not started his bombing campaign in Iran. Yeah. And and it's also worth saying that this is all about this white House. And we started with Caroline Leavitt. This white House is all about communications. It's all about the presentation. And the presentation of 18 deaths is worse than the presentation of 14 deaths. Well, and disappearing four soldiers will turn out to be worse. for them than just keeping them on the road.

Major communications. And similarly, we're talking about Trump reading. He was raging about the fact that his insecure Air Force One had been leaked. He wasn't raging. The Air Force One was insecure. He was raging that this had been leaked. And that's that's what a lot of their says. It's the the fact that the communications are what obsessed people. rather than the substance. Well, interestingly, they had the New York Times leaked. the original story about Air Force One, the new Air Force One, the grift Force.

One, as we say every time we talked Force one, your phrase grift force one, because it's based on the plane that was given from Qatar, a $400 million. It's an amazing backstory. It's an amazing you were pointing out Michael Wolff. Well, and we've all forgotten about it, although. Laura Loomer, who we're going to come to in a moment, Laura Luma, even she said that this was too much of a grift, but we know. the plane has had to be retroactively fitted with all sorts of security.

You know, paraphernalia. OpEd was the was was the words used by the president. something I normally here with a credit card with a credit card. and it's not good or it looks maxing and there is a trend. Yes, yes. Which will I don't recommend if anybody's out there with a hammer. thinking of breaking their jaws, stick to Caroline Levitt's hair tips. So Laura Loomer, Laura Loomer, who was last seen saying. that she had it on very good authority and the white House.

was not shutting her down, that Mitch McConnell was in a vegetative state. She's now produced a documentary from Ukraine. I know this is. Laura Loomer is a sort of Zelig like figure in this Trump administration. She doesn't do Carolyn Levitt's hair, but she's pretty. much got a finger in every other party here. And the. So you will know.

We all know that for the last five years, MAGA has been obsessed by basically. wanting Ukraine to give up surrender, to surrender to Russia. And they have been full of conspiracy theories. They have hated Zelensky, the Ukrainian president. They have smeared him as an addict. They have claimed that he's stealing all the aid. The they have gone wild with the idea that there should be no weapons. given to Ukraine, something that JD Vance has continued to advance.

But Laura Wimmer, who had been at the heart of this, made a really extraordinary journey. This week she went to Ukraine to get to Ukraine. Of course, as we know, you don't fly direct. You have to get a train from the Polish border. She documented all this and she has had a Damascene, a Kievan conversion. She knows that is that the Ukrainians are the good guys, that the Christians of Ukraine are being persecuted by, by the Russian attacks, which has been a big MAGA talking point, by the way,

about Christian persecution and that Putin was standing up for Christians. I mean, quite obviously this is crazy, but she had been pushing this. She says, no, I got it all wrong. She sat down with Volodymyr Zelensky, who obviously centered an amazing ton of, you know, ton of view here, which he wants to turn to return to his advantage. And she is going to come back as she is.

going to come back, show this documentary and evangelize for the people of Ukraine. And I think she got caught in an air raid, too, which will also do a lot. when you actually see the reality of war on the ground. It's very different than when she's sitting in the middle of the country just, you know, posting away about something that she has zero experience of. And I think the thing that we should take away from this. conversion is over the last few months, our colleagues at The Daily Beast, particularly Alison Quinn,

who for a long time lived in Russia, then Ukraine, and I was much more safely in the United States, have been documenting how the Ukrainians are not being defeated and in fact, they are beginning. to cripple the Russian economy in a way that people did not foresee. These they have executed drone strikes on all production. on on Russia's version of Amazon, because that's how the Russians. were moving around parts for the drones they have made.

I think Vladimir Putin concerned that he might get overthrown. He's living in a bunker all the time. Alison was revealing yesterday on a live stream, which you can find on this YouTube channel. Go back and watch it. It's fascinating. And clearly there is a question over momentum here. And mica doesn't like, you know, mica doesn't like losing. If it does lose, it says you've cheated. But if you're Putin, it becomes a loser. They don't want anything to do with them. And we had a sign this morning that not just.

what is on this train that there's a comedian called temple. He has a vast MAGA audience. He turned himself around as well and says, yeah, I know back Ukraine. So, so and we know that Volodymyr Zelensky is coming to Washington next week. He's expected to have a meeting with Donald Trump. He's coming for Lindsey Graham Funeral Memorial. And we know that Lindsey Graham, despite. the 180 on Trump having called him a fruit loop.

and that, you know, he was out after January the 6th. And then of course, we discovered that 40 minutes later, he was straight back on. the phone call saying, I don't know why I said that. That wasn't me. I don't know what I was thinking. He was straight back in there. But the one thing he has been consistent on is. Ukraine should win this war. The US should support Ukraine. This is a gateway opportunity for the Russians to go into Europe. if the Americans don't do something. And of course, the Ukrainians have armed themselves with drone, learned.

drone technology and proved like unfortunately, it turns out Iran has proved that just because you invade the smaller power, within theory, a bigger military does not mean you win the war. No, and we saw that this week, actually, when Hegseth was in front of the Senate. and we all saw John Ossoff, forensic. destruction of hex at the reduced him to stuttering mess. But some other senators were asking us about, why are you.

not taking advice from Ukraine? Why have you not gone and got every bit of help you can from Ukraine? And the quid pro quo is Ukraine needs weapons and hexes. Response was to go back to this MAGA talking point of. we sent all our weapons to Ukraine and that was the walk. Joe Biden I'm using a sort of a right of his words here, but, that this was bad and America lost out. And these senators were absolutely robust in pointing out to him that Ukraine. has the technology and the knowledge to prevent the sort of drone attacks.

that led to the death this week over the last few days alone of them, Sergeant. Michael Swinton, and have injured many, many more troops in the Middle East. And the lack of understanding, I think, of that. in MAGA has come to this point is, is intriguing because now. we have these voices seeing the opposite, saying, let's ally ourselves properly. with Ukraine, let's beat Russia and let's get this done. I mean, remember Donald Trump. saying, oh, I'm going to solve this war on the first day that I'm there.

And of course, he's discovered he can't possibly do that. They've got no diplomats in the region. Right? Steve Wyckoff and Jared Kushner have no idea what they're doing. They're just casting around for business deals. And also this cover story that the reason that Pete Hegseth. needs the $1.5 trillion to run the Pentagon, a man who literally was drummed out of his previous two jobs. running veteran affairs organizations under accusations.

of financial mismanagement as well as intoxication at work, are something that we've talked about a lot before, but the idea of the cover story of why we need the money. is because we've sent all our weapons to it, to Ukraine. We've run out of weapons. I mean, the whole thing. is it's a nonsensical cover story, but there are real concerns that there are. There is a lack of supply of munitions and particularly defensive munitions. for the Middle East. And we saw in the last few days this attempt to step up.

bombing on Iran in the belief that this will bring them to the table, which obviously hasn't got so far. They deployed B-1b Lancer. for the first time, I think in four months. The the use of these heavier and heavier munitions is partly. because there are real concerns about supply chains, but it's just a consistent theme in American foreign policy. that America underestimates any other country. It just believes in itself so much.

And it's the disadvantage of America's self-confidence, which is one of the reasons. I think we both moved here, the sense of energy and positivity. And you can do anything here. The the inverse of that is the refusal to understand other countries, refusal. to learn other languages, and a refusal to believe that other countries. have the ability to fight back. Fight back effectively. Absolutely, Joanna. And the Middle East has been a, quote, mire. for the United States, Afghanistan, Iraq.

Now we have Iran. And just to mention that Trump this week we had another leak that he was thirsting. basically the go to war in another country completely. Good Lord Ali. Well, in Mali, yes, in this. And Mali is in north west Africa. France got out of there forever. War. Do you think he's kind of years there? He's confused Mali with Bali. And he thinks it'll be easy to bomb Bali because Bali's a peace loving nation.

They won't see it coming. That's entirely. Isn't it possible? I think it's possible. I can see him on the beach in Bali. Right? Just, you know, sort of. We've had enough of the flowers. The purple flowers are. Don't want the purple flowers everywhere. No, they've got their peace. loving people will eat it out in and out like Venezuela. Oh, it'll just be what a disaster. All right, so Lindsey Graham's funeral memorial. What do we know about it? Other than Darlene appears to be ready to take his seat. Well, it's going to be quite a spectacle.

He is going to be in the capital. So there was going to be a processions of people to come, to come and honor him. We believe that Zelensky is going to be they are not 100% confirmed, but I think that's almost certain. It would be very surprising if he doesn't come. We know that Benjamin Netanyahu has been wanting to come and wants to come. and see Washington, to come and see Donald Trump in Washington. We also know from this week from the Hoover office that Donald Trump. doesn't want to see Benjamin Netanyahu because he's annoyed.

And he feels that that that Netanyahu dragged him into this war in the Middle. East. Netanyahu, I think, would give a very different version of events. Right. But we are going to see a lot of people come to Washington. And as you see Darlene, the newly installed senator, she's newly dropped her married name. She is only calling herself Darlene Graham. She is going to hope that this is an occasion that propels her. into the primary and gets the six year, six year Senate seat.

It's pretty extraordinary spectacle. It's two weeks between the tragic death of her brother, her swearing in. as a senator, her being revealed by the Daily Beast Swamp newsletter. to have made a donation to a pro-choice Republican state senator. That was a great exclusive by the Swamp newsletter, by the way. Fantastic. And it has caused a lot of problems for Darlene. Oh, swamp newsletter comes out every Tuesday, every Wednesday, and it follows the money it does the thing that every journalist in DC.

should do follow the money. We followed the money and we found our only political. donation is to State Senator Healy. And the significance of this is that this is a state senator who filibustered. a Republican state senator. who filibustered a very draconian abortion ban in South Carolina. And we then discovered a second donation. that Darlene made using an alternate spelling of her name.

Darlene usually spells it da l I n e. She is legally. Darlene drl any, but she says that Lindsey Graham. taught her to spell with an eye, so that is what she uses. Anyway, she made a second donation after the state. senator filibustered the abortion law. Another $100. These are the only donations. She's only ever donated to one person. And it is the state senator. And yeah, it's caused ructions, right?

Because what she was trying to do was leave. the door open for women to have abortions for both longer. This this covered time and circumstances. Time and circumstances, which of course is a huge deal. because Lindsey Graham was completely anti-abortion. Yeah. He he was a hard line. He was very hard man that had no apparent relationships. So that he did. Ingraham in the late 90s. So did he. I didn't know that. Good Lord, good for you, Lindsey Graham. Rather you than me.

But for a man that didn't appear to have any sexual relations, I say didn't appear to because he knows what he was doing. He was very keen on others. Yeah. Being held to account. Punitive if they did. Well, I think the important point about this is he was very, very aware of the South Carolina Republican political base, and that political base is very, very against abortion. And he was aware of that. He courted that.

And this when he was in with Trump, he was out with Trump. That didn't really matter, because in South Carolina, he always had the solid calling card of saying, I am the pro-life senator. And he proposed numerous laws. before the overturning of Roe versus Wade. Every year from 2013 onwards, he proposed. some form of abortion ban, and some were more draconian than others. None of these were ever going to pass the Senate. So really this was about positioning, right? It was performative. But Will Darlene has performed the opposite though, right?

Well, she hasn't. I mean, she did it as a private citizen quietly, right? Yes. Clearly didn't want people to know because it would. have been embarrassing for her brother. But do we think that she will be contested in this election? Are people stepping forward? Yes, absolutely. Will be the way. Oldest candidate that you could possibly come up with. in South Carolina has already stepped forward. It is Mark Sanford. Mark Sanford, who used to be the governor, who went,

of course, on his Appalachian Trail walk. Yes. And in fact, it turned out, had a. relationship, at. least as far as we know, with Olivia Nuzzi, Olivia Nuzzi, the journalist from New York magazine, and then Vanity Fair, who was a digital lover of RFK Jr. Yes. And, you know, I don't know other no second acts. in American public life. He's back. He is going to run for this Senate seat, and he says he's better qualified.

And hey. He is. he is a candidate, a candidate. But it's likely that it's therefore likely that others. will throw their hats more firmly in the ring. There have been 3 or 4 other names that have put around, but none of them have immediately gone in on it. He has no. Clearly, if you're a more serious politician in South Carolina, you might be like, oh, don't think Mark Sanford's a great idea, and you might go in yourself.

One of the things that's worth pointing out here is South Carolina has. run off was so Darlene has put her name in for the primary. The. if there are more than two candidates, then the first, the winning candidate in the first round has to get above 50%. Otherwise there's a runoff. So this could this which would take place two weeks later. So this could actually run in well into August. And of course the election's only in November. And this is not what you need. If you're if you're the Republicans. It's kind of messy.

I think of it as a deep red state. But even deep red southern states have yielded surprises. And we've got Mitch McConnell, which is effectively. Darlene is sitting as a senator until the start of January in Linsey. Graham's already, you know, his normal term Lindsey Graham was up for reelection. He was going to run again in November. So she has put in for that. six year term which would start at the start of January. The action would be November.

There is a primary in August. There could be a runoff later in August. But in the meantime she can vote. She has been voting. She's been doing what Mitch McConnell can't. Mitch McConnell, let's talk about Mitch McConnell 40 days and 40 nights. Yes. We pointed out a biblical absence from Washington. Yes. Can he speak? Is Laura Luma right? Is Mitch McConnell in a vegetative state? Well, first of all, we haven't heard from him, have we?

But we do have some new information from Scott Jennings, which we can play now. Scott Jennings, have you had another phone call with the former majority leader recently? Phone call? No. Have you traded? Do you know anything new about his condition that you can update us with? Well, I know he continues to do his rehab activities. I know he's still following doctor's orders, and my assumption. is sometime between now and Monday,

they'll probably issue another update on how he's coming along. I don't know if they've made any decisions about whether he's going to be cleared. to come back to work or not, but I would be surprised if we don't hear. from them again by the by the weekend or by Monday. If I were Mitch McConnell's doctor, I would think it was quite stressful. for Mitch McConnell and his family to have to deal. with rumors that he's essentially comatose. Why don't they issue a ten second video saying, hi, I'm Mitch McConnell.

Thank you for your good wishes. I'm working hard at rehab and I will be back soon. That's all anybody needs. Yeah, we I just see the Daily Beast and I just want to see our subscribers. Thank you. Because of our subscribers, we have been able to do what? Let's be honest. Other people have not done ask these questions. We've been to the hospital. We've seen the security detail. We have tried to track down the people that are that know. the answers well, and the security detail is parked outside the hospital.

These huge black SUV we are paying, we are paying for this health care. We are paying for this. And we've you know, I've, you know, mentioned this before, Joanna. There is medical privacy. There is also the question of he's a senator, he has huge powers. Where is he. So we haven't in the video. We've had no new statement. Terry Carmack, who is his chief of staff, long time aide, paid $226,000. a year, was finally spotted in the corridors of the Senate this week. Absolutely nothing to say.

He was peppered with questions. He didn't say a thing. So what's the actual conspiracy theory here? That that the senator is actually unable to speak? I think that many people have this very reasonable suspicion. that Senator is unable to speak. And if you listen to what Scott Jennings said, he hasn't been Scott Jennings. No. Says he hasn't fallen. The question was incomplete, but he clearly has not been exchanging texts with Mitch McConnell. It is possible that his condition has worsened.

It's also possible that he never had this call in the first place. You know, all we have is this word, for it is never shared any phone records. CNN disowned his has. his version said that his personal recollection. not our fact checks and verified reporting. So in that situation, the chief of staff of the senator becomes. a credible powerful. He is the person who uses with other senators, with other chiefs of staff. And I'll just say there is a real world effect going on here.

Republicans are beginning to warn that they are paralyzed. on some really, really important things, not just for appointing Trump's people, which is, you know, part of their job, but for real, that will have real world consequences. A government shut down the farm bill. The farm bill funds subsidies to farms which allow us to eat. And if this bill is every year, it is a must pass bill. Defense and the farm bill are must pass. Mitch McConnell is critical to these efforts, and he's not there.

and his vote doesn't exist. And if his vote doesn't exist, it might not happen. So there's a real possibility that we are beginning to get moved towards. some sort of government shutdown, where, as Mitch, if you can't speak, can't vote, and we're about to go into the six week. long break that senators take over the summer, correct? Yes. I love how these politicians ward themselves the best health care, the ability to take unlimited time off work without telling anybody.

what they're doing. Witness Tom Kean. Yes, congressman in new Jersey who disappeared for months on end. I mean, he missed how many votes? 146 votes. Yes. This is not what but he did do some stock trading him in for. Yes. Happily. Happily. Because he said that he'd been off because he was depressed. He wasn't so depressed that he couldn't carry out some investment trades. It's a trading that keeps them going. It's the trading that kept him that kept him positive. It's just astonishing to me. And then,

of course, they have great health care and they have very long holidays. Who doesn't want to run for office? Well, the host, by the. way, is firing up the jets this morning to get out of town. They're coming back. You be five weeks time and they won't do anything in between. Independent media has nothing on being a senator or a congressperson. in America, and I know there are lots of very good politicians out there. As we've just mentioned, Jon Ossoff is doing a fantastic job.

and has obviously clearly risen up the Democratic hopeful ladder for 2028. So final question. Epstein has crept back onto the schedule. I've noticed. I mean, I felt as if Donald Trump had actually won the Epstein files. at one point, but the oversight committee had just Daley back into day. The former JP Morgan executive and former CEO of Barclays Bank, an astonishingly high scalp for the Epstein case. and a mystery death of a model.

agent who was very close to Jeffrey Epstein. and supplied him with girls, as hundreds of emails have revealed. Yeah, it's it's been Epstein week. It never goes away. And again, if we go back to that Oval Office, another reason to rage. this week, as you suggest, steely was in front of the House. of members of Congress in a brief appearance. You know of them from their holidays.

But the more. significant thing is this mystery death of Daniel Sayad. Daniel Sayad was found at his home in a suburb of Paris called Cohen, and we still don't know why he died, but this is another. suspicious, weird twist in the Epstein case. He was being investigated by the French authorities. He had been accused himself of a rape back in. He allegedly committed in the 90s against a Swedish model, and he was being investigated on on grounds.

of supplying to Epstein women who, who or girls. obviously at the time who were sexually exploited by Epstein. And some of the emails that he sent are really just so depressing. And there are things like, if you promise her that you'll get her a modeling job, she will be easy. I mean, it was just a terrible, terrible indictment of the whole modeling business. Yeah, a one that obviously you know far better than I do, Joanna, but I'm a real. There's a real question mark here about the French authorities.

But why had he not been arrested? They say they didn't have the evidence. He had protested his innocence, but those emails. were stomach churning on the on their own terms. And they are not dissimilar just daily situation that it was. the emails that really have brought out the worst here. Jess Staley, who appeared in front of Congress and who denied I mean, one of the reasons. he lost his job at Barclays Bank was he knew. Epstein denied that he was a friend. Yes.

And I just the one exchange that he had with Epstein. in 2010 after Epstein's conviction. and recently after recently, it was not this was not a secret. People knew. He knew he had corresponded with Epstein. Well, Epstein was doing his sentence. But in 2010, Staley emailed Epstein. That was fun. Say hi to Snow White at Source. Nestor. So weird. And Epstein said, what character?

Which character would you like next? Which still replied, beauty and the beast. And Epstein said, well, one side is available. And these creepy, horrible, weird, misogynistic emails. I mean, these these emails are sickening. It's such an interesting insight, I think, for people into the lives. of certain powerful men and how they treat women. And just the idea that these are kind of cartoons to them. Yeah, well, those are not, of course, the only powerful men that we've seen exposed this week.

We've also had the Tate brothers, horrible. misogynistic influencers and quote marks, Andrew and Tristan Tate, who were arrested in Miami on charges. which include rape, sexual assault and child sexual abuse imagery. Absolutely horrific selection of charges. They say that they're innocent. and the charges have been brought in the united in the United Kingdom. So they're going to be they are up for extradition. But what is really fascinating about this is that they are closely.

connected to the Trump world, and there are real questions. being asked by one Democratic member of the House. this week who has written to the well, she's. she's written to the House Oversight Committee chairman, James Comer, to say. we need to get Barron Trump in the answer for his relations, the relationship with the Tates, because the Tates are always saying, oh, well, we've talked about Trump. We know they're held up within the manor sphere, slashed the sphere as kind of.

rich, sort of. Well, again, it's just this revolting and many and Andrew. Tate back in 2024 and I've had to just make sure I get these quotes right. So I'm very close with the Trump family. I know them well. And he said he had spoken to Barron and. was also looking forward to telling the president, or. I guess in 2024, the former president, that he's a bullet proof badass.

And it's this is actually a real vulnerability. for the Trumps, because Yasmeen Ansari, who's the the rising Democratic congresswoman who wrote this letter to say. we need to talk. Barron. and the other Trumps, Don Jr appealed on a live stream with Andrew Tait. JD Vance follows these tapes on social media, and they don't have the power to force subpoenas. They don't have the power yet. But Donald Trump, raging in his other office, knows that.

it is very likely that the House is going to flip. to the Democrats at the midterms, and then they can enforce this. And we could very, very well see Barron Trump served with a subpoena to say, what do you know about the tapes? Well, and the tapes also were originally arrested in Romania. for sex trafficking and underage pornography. Right. And were miraculously, because they're American. They are both American and British, American, British.

So they born here but then brought up in in our native country. But am I right in thinking that Donald Trump helped them get out? Well, Romania, we absolutely believe so. We have the word of Andrew Tate for this, because a text message that was. leaked to the New York Times area this year said, I said that. just before Donald Trump came back into office, Tate was texting his friends. and saying, I had one from the Trump admin that they on top of things. I've been told I'll be free soon, but Trump needs to see me in Miami.

So according to Tate himself, yes. Well, the white. and the white House this week have said that. they're not going to stand in the way of the extradition. and that they should be going back to the UK to face charges. They have washed their hands of these tapes in a way that one should. The Tate should have seen this coming. because that's what they did to Epstein back in 2019. But. this is this is going to be a new vulnerability. There is an echo of the Epstein files here, the closeness of the Trump family.

to toxic people is something that Democrats are really, really keen to get their teeth into and could be a real vulnerability, a real narrative of questions and a real problem. Also for Melania Trump, who we haven't discussed. because she has been so protective of Barron, he has vanished. He vanishes from the public eye for months at a time. The most recent time we saw him, obviously last weekend at the World Cup final. But like Monia, he's a bit of a mystery and this could blow him open.

Well, we know that Melania won't be accompanying. her husband to the white House Correspondents Dinner tonight. For those of you who have joined us and don't know what happened. at the last white House Correspondents Dinner, Hugh, why don't you tell them. whose room you were adjacent to in the Washington Hilton? We went to the last white House Correspondents Dinner, not the celebrity Donald Trump, who was going to be there, but because we had thought about this a lot.

and took the view that we have to report on this as journalists. And also we have to say to Donald Trump, this is our territory. You're coming on to our territory. And, you know, I was concerned that a lot of the elite DC media. that go to this thing, we're going to get the champagne, clap, yell, cheer and ask for selfies, because quite frankly, that's what goes on in DC. And I thought it was important that The Daily Beast goes.

and reports as journalists. What I didn't expect was that I would end up being turned out next door. to the gunman who tried to get in. There was an astonishing breach of hotel security. He walked into this hotel armed. Nobody searched him. Nobody searched any of us. And he got to within 20ft of being in the bowl. The vast ballroom for this event takes place. So. And there were 2500 people in the 2500 people.

It's a much smaller event, 700 people. And again, I'm concerned that DC likes this show. We will. One of our reporters, Farrah Thomson, will be there reporting on this event, not clapping, not cheering, not yelling, not seeking selfies, not giving approbation to Trump, who has been attacking the First Amendment, attacking journalism, demanding action against New York Times journalists. for revealing that his grift force one was insecure. I have grieved personal reservations about the idea this event even took place.

We have to. journalistically be there to report on it, because that is the most important thing. that we can do. And we should point out that Trump wanted to serve subpoenas. to the New York Times journalists who broke. the story about the lack of security around the new Qatar grift. And he did on fact serve subpoenas, but then all fell apart. because a judge told them that's not how you serve a subpoena. The DOJ was forced to withdraw this. The voluntarily withdrew the subpoenas before they were ordered by the judge.

But this attack on the First Amendment is not over. They may well come back with fresh subpoenas. and try to force these journalists to reveal who their sources were, which is an incredibly bad idea for the free press, but also so shows you that this story was true. and the story was denied. by the white House, denied by Caroline Levitt with her ruler in her hair. And you can't prosecute a journalist if the story was. if you were going after the journalist, obviously the story was true.

So, you know, quite a remarkable turn of events. Well, I hope that Farah Thomasin does get at least one glass of champagne. tonight at the white House Correspondents Dinner. Well, not not not to toast the toast. The First Amendment. Absolutely. Yeah, the First Amendment. Not really. The dinner is to celebrate the incredible importance of the First Amendment, which we see undermined every single day by this government and this cabinet, not least the removing of four of the service. people's names who died in this bombing of Iran.

Huey, thank you so much for keeping us up to date. I know you have an editorial meeting to get to. I do. It's always a thrill to wind up the week with you. There's one thing I want to stay on top of, Joanna, which is a discussion we had last week about it. High tea? Yes. Has started a debate. It's a very British debate. I'm Scottish, obviously. Joanna, I didn't know you were Scottish. I keep it, I keep it conceived. No idea. You were Scottish.

I know who does he tell us? Every single time. I'm very discreet about it. But we discuss Haiti. And you offered one definition of what height? Well, we it because of right of what it is. Which should be sandwiches. Little cheese sandwich, possibly salmon. Bit of chicken. Coronation chicken. Margaret Thatcher's favorite dish with scones. Cream. It doesn't matter if you put the cream on or the butter on or the jam on first. Always the debate in England.

This is what English people argue about. Well, I hate to tell you, Scottish people and some people from other parts. of the north of England, not Yorkshire, obviously, have a different definition of high tea. And I asked my parents define high tea in Scotland. Bit old fashioned, but we would split five between 4 and 5 p.m.. And it's not scones and cakes first. Fish and chips. Maybe a steak pie. Maybe take me is not height,

but it has to be accompanied by a very, very big steaming pot of tea. And afterwards you can have a cake, fish and chips at 4:00. Who would do that? Who and Scotland do? I would do that. No. It's sandwiches. It's cream, clotted cream and scones and it's fruitcake. And then possibly a fondant. Nothing better than a fondant at Fortnum and Mason's. Oh, that. You can't get any more English than that. You really can't. Anyway, thank you for all your comments about Haiti. You can tell us, do you really want steak pie or battered fish and chips of four?

Yes you do. I don't think so. I don't think so. Hugh, it's very good to see you. If you have comments on who's accent. The fact he's Scottish or on. some of the things we've talked about, like the disappearing of for America, I think there's a few more serious things to talk about. Right. Or Carolyn Leavitt's hair. How do you roll your hair? Is that what you do? I find the lint roller is quite good because the hair sticks up. there of its own accord. Well, the lint rollers accord anyway, right? And let us know.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. We just reach 700,000, 300,000. I can't believe it. It's amazing. Thank someone. Only just over a year ago. So we are thrilled. Thank you very much for your support. I'm really excited for. you to hear this next conversation with Dick Costello. He is the former CEO of Twitter. and the co-founder of oh one advisors. And in it. Well, he really caught me up short, actually, by predicting the end of.

thinking. Now this conversation is produced in partnership with PMI, US, US businesses. of Philip Morris international, as part of a year long initiative. to celebrate and accelerate American innovation and reinvention. We're looking ahead. to the next 250 years of America and reacting directly to your comments. So Dick and I are discussing the future of social media and the internet.

Let's dive right in. So, Dick, is social media basically over now? It's certainly fractured. So what I mean by that is, taking a walk through Soho. here in New York will tell you that it's not dead. The number of boyfriends of Instagram. taking photos of their girlfriends standing in the middle of the street. with a bag over their shoulder, looking longingly down the cobblestones,

is there's one every other block sometimes to. so certainly TikTok and Instagram are not over. I think the challenge is. Facebook feels long, long past. Snapchat is not what it used to be for high schoolers, and Twitter is filled with the very thing that Elaine said. he wanted to get rid of bots and now AI slop, right?

So I'm going to protest about Snapchat because I'm on the board. So I'm just. you poured me in. The Daily Beast cup is delicious in a way. Isn't it good? It's good to have money. Yeah, a sneaky sneaky there. So if you're sort of looking out over the next 5 to 10 years, how do people continue to communicate on social media? And where have the conversations gone that I used to love so much?

In the early Twitter days when you were CEO? Thank you. They're not there. Those are gone, seemingly not to return, at least on one of the existing platforms. Those those things are gone, people. You know, the all you need to do. is look at any one. very sort of anyone. who proposes anything controversial on on Twitter is met with nothing but,

you know, trolls and and and the trolls are so. There. What gets attention, you know, of friends who call it the sort of the, the, the, the the anger economy and the, the, the, the troll economy, they there's a whole economy for those people that by just being mean. and cruel and everything get attention and get engagement and get fans.

One need only look no further than the Tate. brothers who are like rich. from being crazy misogynists. So so the the challenge. with AI now entering the fray is that the discourse is gone. With the emergence of AI, the amount of content that's being posted, that's just AI slop right to spot, by the way, not forget about just social media, but. from Facebook to LinkedIn to Twitter to Spotify music.

to Amazon Books, I have 4 or 5 people now who've sent me. I wrote a book I can you review this book? Well, they're using everyone's going to write a book and everyone's. going to be a musician and everyone's going to be an artist. And the problem is, when everyone does it, nothing is interesting. As you remember, I love. Hold on. Let me just linger on that. I love that when everybody does it, nothing is interesting.

It's increasingly hard to find anything of any value, because you can use AI to create this stuff and then post it. You can be a musician, you can be a author, you can be a. it's impossible to it. It will become almost impossible. to find anything of interest that's new and unique on these platforms. I mean, and don't forget, AI brings as much as social media pushed all of us. to our corners right, the right and left, and everybody hears their echo chamber.

on these platforms, whether they're far right or far left. Artificial intelligence being the having studied. the entire internet and giving you back the average of what everyone thinks, you know, again, I say this all the time, but go. to OpenAI and say pick a random number one through ten. Give me a random number one through ten. It will always say seven. Always. Really, the reason it will always say seven is because that's the average.

AI brings everything back to the middle, meaning a homogeneous. is everything, right? By homogenizing everything, all these books and music. that are published to Spotify and Amazon and so forth are going to all be the same. So none of it will be interesting. And we're at the very early innings of people doing this stuff. You know, look at, look at the millions and millions and millions of songs. that have been added to Spotify that are AI slop.

And, you know, you and I haven't done it yet, but probably will go, oh, wait, wait till it's wait till it's even easier. You know, I got a fun tune in my head. Oh yeah. I promise you, I'm never going to send you that. So. So there was a CEO of Twitter between you and when Elon, there were like nine. There were nine CEOs. No, there were nine. Like, they're like Spinal Tap drummers, the CEOs of Twitter. Okay. So what one was killed in a bizarre gardening incident.

You know, it's no, it's straight out of Spinal Tap. It was like nine of them. No, that was a line from that was okay. What did he must get right. And what did he get wrong about X? Yeah, well, he certainly got right that you didn't need. as many people as were in the company at the time. I mean, I think there were 7000 employees when he took over from Parag. Jack, left, made Parag CEO for a hot minute. And then and then Elon took over. There were something like 7700 people there.

And now, you know, there are, what, a couple. hundred, 300, 400, maybe 200, 300 a while. I mean, it's a radical departure. So yeah. And I think but all these companies Google meta, I mean everyone had over hired and it was just, you know, doesn't matter. because we're profitable and we don't need to pay attention to that. I mean, for whatever reason, all of these companies wildly over hired. And so he got that right.

I think the thing he got wrong is, I mean, they're probably a bunch of things. The thing I think I would say he got wrong is probably more than a couple hundred, because literally, I mean, if you'll remember, when he took over. the platform, he kind of was raging about bots. There are too many bots. And I mean. all of the whenever I post something now, a week later, I'll go and look at my, you know, act engagement and see that, oh,

a few of your tweets, tweets were retweeted like 19 times. It's all done. All teen times. By the way, 19 is magic number. It's all like sex cams adult. You know, it's all bots and it's all for whatever reason. Mine happened to be all porn bots. So. I that's, that's that's unfortunately that's unfortunately you know, the complaint, the thing that he was actually complaining about has gotten significantly worse. Right. I will say this.

The the person that he brought in to run product there. Now, Nikita Bayer is exceptionally good at thinking. about how to grow the platform and the kinds of things that you really want. and what needs to be added. And he's done a great job and he's only he's only one. I think he's the only product manager there. And, you know, good for him because it's a hard job. Right? So if you're looking at sort of 20 to 30 years, how do you think we're going to be communicating with each other?

I think that we underestimate. how much cognitive offloading we do by our use of AI right now. And that's going to get a lot worse. And people are going to stop trying. So there's a great paper out and I can't send it around to all your listeners. The TLDR of this paper is even people who only use AI for as little. as ten minutes stop trying to think for themselves to solve a problem.

And just like, well, I'll just ask for the answer. You know, if you if you're in a university. So interesting. Much better. Yeah. If you're in a university and you're in a, you get one on one time. with your professor and you say, I mean, let's use coding as an example. Hey, how would I code binary tree. to sort x, y, z more quickly? The professor would say, well, you know, how would you start? And you have some back and forth and you learn along the way.

Well, when you ask Codex or cloud code like, hey, I need a, I need to search. for whatever as quickly as possible in something less than three seconds. Can you build it? For me, it's just goes here. And so once you start to use AI and quickly learn, oh, it just will do it for me. Human beings have evolved to offload as much cognitive stuff as they can. so they can, you know, run away from the sabertooth tiger. I can't I don't have time to think right now. I got to chase, get away from that thing and find some berries. Deed. Right.

So we we'll do all the cognitive offloading. Anything will let us do an AI is. Hey, you don't need to try anymore. I'll like answer it for you. And it's already happening significantly. And I think that's going to get a thousand times worse. So I'm like, one of the things I worry about is as AI becomes even better, how do we make sure people are still learning? I it sounds like a simple thing to ask, but it's going to be.

it's going to be for for parents who don't pay attention to their kids. and the way they learn and how they learn, they're not going to learn. They're just going to. they're not they're going to go just this thing will tell me the answer. I don't have to try. And is it so are you predicting the end of thinking? I'm predicting the end of thinking for a lot, for a large segment of humanity. Yeah, yeah. No. It's alarming. I mean, it's so I mean, if you said that ten years ago,

you'd be like, well, people are going to still think. Of course those don't think, but it's already happening. You see people they I'm telling you, this paper, you know, thousands of people. with as little as ten minutes using AI, they just stopped. They just stopped trying. They're like, well, I don't need to ask how to do this. I'll just say, what's the answer? Do you think? Right. Yeah. And also, I know from my own behavior the kind of memos or whatever. that I whip up or that AI whips up for me,

why would I ever want to go back to writing those myself? But actually, something is lost in the offloading, as you say. Probably. Yeah, well, you learn by making mistakes and screwing things up, and then you find out things along the way, right. That you wouldn't that aren't you learn things that aren't the thing. you were trying to learn in the process of making mistakes and screwing things up. and trying and oh, that's interesting. This funny thing happened, right? The serendipity of of the journey. Yeah.

So which are the companies that survive then? You know, open AI, anthropic grok AI. Do you have a sense of of which ones are here to stay? It's very so there's a thing that's. super relevant to right now, which is that once again the Chinese models and, and it's it's different ones on different days. have have emerged again as, hey, these might be getting better a lot more quickly than we thought.

And they're not 9 to 12 months behind. In fact, they might not be that far behind at all. And there's a group of people that will say, well, they're basically going and distilling anthropic and what I mean, but what distilling means is their their AI is just going and asking anthropic. millions and millions of questions and, and and taking them for itself. And you know what I mean. Basically stealing anthropic, if you will. Right. So distilling is essentially. you're going and copying anthropic by just having a billions of bots.

go ask your questions and steal it and try to you're trying to do it. as sneaky way and blah, blah, blah, and anthropic or OpenAI can't stop that. Well, they it's like it's like spam, you know, like now I'm doing. you block or bots on Twitter. I block it over here. And now it comes in. Now they're doing so. There's lots and lots of ways to do this. However, there's. another group of people that are like, it's too good to have distilled anthropic. It's it's it's come it's, you know, it's it's better.

than anthropic in these kinds of things. It's a little bit worse than these kinds of things. The point being these open these open. Wait. Chinese models are very quickly becoming. Abul it all down. The point is these open weight models and in fact. all the models are very quickly becoming commodities and all the same. And you can sort of look to a year from now or two years from now. or three years from now. and say these things are all going to be they're all going to be just as good.

And if that's true and the open source, you know, pick whatever, you know, version nine of this particular Chinese model that's great at coding. is $0.02 for, you know, 10 million tokens. And anthropic and OpenAI are trying to make money and are spending. all this money on compute in the US and data centers and blah, blah, blah. And there are $10 for the same amount of tokens.

Enterprises are going to go, well, I want to pay $0.02. because I'll be much more profitable if I pay $0.02. So there's a there's a sort of reckoning that's on the very near. term horizon here for weather, OpenAI and anthropic and grok. and and and Gemini from Google and Llama from Facebook. are going to. be, you know, profitable businesses or. something else happens and that's something. else is are right.

What is it. Do they go into some sort of new business model. where they're like, oh, we can't charge for token use anymore? Like we, you know, we can't charge $200 a month for x, y, z. We have to be in the, I don't know, workflow automation business or something. Or do they go to the US government and go, hey, you need to take a stake in us. And then, you know, yes, we can't charge as much as we were charging to enter prizes. because people will just use open source models. But you should only use us at very expensive rates.

for the Department of Defense, because otherwise the Chinese models will, you know, be. hack, will hack into our Department of Defense systems and blah, blah, blah, all by way of saying if these things are all commodities and open. an anthropic, are spending as much money as and and Facebook, sorry. and meta and Google and Grok are spending as much money as they're spending. there. They're not going to be able to be profitable doing what they're doing. They'll have to do something else.

And whether that's the government regulating stuff and only using US models. for government contracts or something else happens, or they go into a different business, who knows? But it seems to be true that these things all are headed to being commodities. and all. Are they all going to be? Assuming some American companies do survive? Do you have a sense of. which one at the moment is in the lead?

If you were to put money on it, if you were to go? Yes. But it changes. I mean, anthropic is the answer, right? Okay. They were smart about the way they were. They were smart about the business to go into, they've got a great team. The product works. Mike Krieger there was the chief product officer, and I think as the chief science officer was co-founder of Instagram. is a fantastic I mean, but all these teams have great people. But he's just he's just very, very good.

But having said that, it changes. You know, a year ago it looked like it was open. AI now Crocs got a great coding model and just has the, you know, the ability to go bring in the cursor folks there and have. who are obviously great at this and build out the grok coding model. So so we'll see. They they they certainly keep leapfrogging each other. It looks like anthropic in the lead right now. The digital world was supposed to bring everybody closer together. We appear to be living through what we're told is an epidemic of loneliness.

It's definitely pushed people further apart. Right? Yeah. I mean, you hold all you need to do. is go to a restaurant and look at couples who are both on their phones, right? Like while they're sitting there right across from each other on a date. or whatever, like it's. so, so is there a solution that can take provide a solution for that? Yeah. Yeah. It's making that worse too, as we're already seeing, you know, people are like, well, I'm just going to have an AI girlfriend because it's not going to, you know,

it's not going to tell me she doesn't want to go out with me. I'm never going to get rejected. And I'll just develop this relationship with this AI. You know, you would have thought that was that was still years away. It's happening all over the place already. You know, people have these relationships with some AI bot, which seems crazy to probably you and me, but it's it's happening everywhere. And we'll just get obviously there'll be more and more of that. So there will have to be some sort of a societal like, hey man, enough is enough.

Like no one's talking to any. We're not talking to each other anymore. Regulation. New inventions are making this worse, not better. Like, the glasses are like, wait, now when I'm now, when I'm looking out at the world, it's going to have a layer over it that's like. popping up the next dance, like dance move or like, oh, that's Rebecca, you know? And then then you've got people like, I don't want to talk to anyone. wearing these glasses because they, like, are creepy. And meanwhile the creepy people are like, look, I know. Well, no, I know that's Joanna Coles, right?

It's crazy, but it's not going to that's not going to make it better. Right. Okay. So so you actually not you're not two thumbs up. on human communication going forward or do you think. Do you think we'll see two thumbs up on communication? I mean, look, if you can think. and you know that like, hey, AI, AI is here to make it all easier for me and so I don't have to try and then, you know, that you go, okay, I'm. not going to use it for stuff like that because I don't want to stop thinking.

So I don't use it for things like give me the answer. I use it for things like, hey, I'm trying to figure this out. Like, you know how like, give me the first step and how to do that, to think about how you would go do do something like this. Even for things like cooking. I'll just say like, hey, how would you. if I was trying to do this and this and this. with in this particular meal I'm trying to make? How would you think about getting started with this and and why? And then. Oh, that's interesting and I'll think about it.

So you use it as a kind of companion, not an answer. We are on a text exchange, which I find hilarious. It's a group of four of us. It's incredibly well informed. I'm the least informed person, but and I'm wondering if that's also the way. that social media goes that people just inevitably. form their own little group. Yeah, I'm seeing more and more of that. Right. I think that's that's a hopeful outcome. And I have several of those kinds of communities. There's little groups that are great little WhatsApp chats.

Yeah, the international. and then you can get different perspectives from people, which I found really valuable with the ones I have in Europe. Yeah. Someone will probably someone will come up. with some sort of platform to make that easier. Not that WhatsApp's hard, because it seems like. the right way forward for having thriving conversation again. Okay, we have a question here from a viewer who says, is the internet dead? It definitely seems like it's headed in that direction.

The short answer is, I think the internet is dying because people are just going to this. AI platforms now and asking the question, and they don't have to go search. So. if the internet is dying, what do OpenAI and anthropic and grok and everything? What what's the new stuff that they search? They have to pay or find their own way. to use these data companies like Micro One and Handshake. and Merker and others to go help them aggregate the data they don't have.

Like for example, I need to learn about oncology and I don't know anything about this. particular pancreatic cancer mutation, but here's a PhD candidate. from the University of Washington who's written a thesis on this. We'll go interview him and pull all that data into our platform. And now we know everything that that person knows. Okay. So there's a lot of that going on. And they'll be going and creating new information.

Right okay. That is actually happening right now. So final question will social media sites ever. be able to actually clamp down on bots? I mean, I've completely stopped on X now because it's all bots. The short answer is it's possible. The longer answer is it's it's expensive and hard. So it's just a question of the willingness to do it. And I think that Elon is learning that it's a lot, you know, or.

finding out I don't know whether he's learning. He's finding out that it is not as simple as you. It's not as simple as you think it is. Dick Costello, it's always good to see you and it's always good to get your opinions. Thank you for coming in to talk to us. Happy to do it. Big thanks to Dick Costello for joining me. And next Friday. I'll be talking about the future of sports and technology with Vivek Devey, the co-owner and the chairman of the Sacramento Kings, and great fun.

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