Why Musk Just Made Trump Really Paranoid about JD | The Daily Beast Podcast

I'm Joanna Coles, chief. content officer of The Daily Beast, and this is the Daily Beast podcast. Thank you again for your thousands of comments. We are trying to plow through them all. It's very, very helpful to know what you think. And there is so much intelligent commentary around this extraordinarily. historic moment in America. Today's guest is in the Hamptons. I'm in London and the National Guard are in Los Angeles. What the hell is going on?

We have no time to waste. We're talking of course, to the man who lives inside. Donald Trump's head, the bestselling author Michael Wolff. He's written four books about Donald Trump. He spent the weekend talking to people in the white House. Let's get into it, Michael. I've got, withdrawal symptoms from. having not spoken to you for 48 hours and. the world seems to have changed.

You're in the Hamptons. I'm in London. The National Guard is in L.A. again. Please explain to us what's going on. I feel like last time we talked, we were on the edge of a cliffhanger. And we've come back for you. to explain the episode to us, but it hasn't gone where I was expecting. And I know you've been posting over the weekend on Michael Wolff NYC on Instagram, but I want you to bring listeners and viewers of this podcast up to date. with what the hell is going on between Trump and Musk and America.

Well, I don't think we we, I mean, this is still playing out, so it's not it's not it's not that it hasn't gone where we expected it to go. It may well go where we expected it to go. It's just that in the, in the drama, in both men, both principals are composing a drama here. I mean, they're both working out the narrative in their own minds.

And it's almost as if Elon is. creating a spinoff series now. Yeah. Yes. But it could come back. I mean, I think I think the the point is he will bring this. He will bring this back together. You know, the conflict, the conflict has to come back, but you can't, in any kind of, kind of, traditional dramatic structure in some sense,

it always comes back to a traditional dramatic structure. You're going to delay the climax for some time. As long as you possibly can. How long will the series run? But I think I think Ellen from an on. an on his side. You know, he may have, he may be feeling that he has gotten. gotten, ahead of his skis for the moment. And he may be. feeling, you know, you know, I'm the richest man in the world,

but this is against the government and the United States. Even the richest man in the world against the government of the United States. has to, pause for a second. But I did feel a bit. like we were watching a Shonda Rhimes drama, where she suddenly kills one of the favorite characters. in the middle of the drama, and you're like, whoa, I didn't see that coming. Because even though you had predicted that.

it would end badly between Ellen and Trump and your money was on Trump. winning, it felt like it came very quickly. And also, although they had that press conference. in the white House where Donald Trump presented Elon Musk with the the key, and there was the very symbolic black eye, which Donald. Trump said he didn't want to cover up with, with makeup. It very quickly deteriorated. And of course, they both own social media platforms.

So it had already I mean, behind the scenes, it had already deteriorated. So can you talk so well? I mean, they they were they were, you know, Elon was was demanding more. I think that that he was increasingly upset with the people around Trump. and how they were frustrating what he was trying to do. And he was increasingly frustrated, of course, with Trump himself.

I mean, I mean, I think that he went into this accepting Trump is a crazy person. But I can I can deal with that. I think he, I think he went into the, into that. accepting that, but also also believing. that Trump had bought into his proposition. that technology could. streamline government in a,

sort of revolutionize the management of government, which so so yeah. Yeah, yeah. So beyond the fact that that, that that Elon is a megalomaniac and, and a control freak and, and, and, you know, has has an agenda that changed moment by moment. There was he he is in the end in his real. gift is as a management person.

This is what he does incredibly well. Perhaps better than anybody, I don't know. Can we say, since Henry Ford, you know, it it is. And that's that's that was if there was a messianic vision. that he brought to that, it was this I can bring this to government. I can bring this talent to government. And Trump was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. You know, and and and and again,

Trump's inability to, understand. even even feign interest in the details. is, is one of the most striking things about him. So, so I think Elon took that first as agreement. I don't have to explain. He's on board and then increasingly found that as, as an, as an impediment, the guy is not a guy, doesn't understand what I'm doing here.

So and also was it also that, I mean, Elon I mean, you mentioned Henry Ford. There's also comparisons to Benjamin Franklin that there is something. very serious at the core of Elon about about creating. disruptive technology, which does transform lives. And Donald Trump is not a serious person. Yes. Ultimately, he's not a serious person, of course. But he's and not only is he not a not a serious person,

you can't even engage with the subject with him, which again, in the beginning seems like he agrees with you. Just go do it. And then you find you find that that he. that it's just a a rock in the middle of the road. A man who who doesn't understand anything and who is uninterested in, in, in anything when you're really trying to do something that there that requires. enormous amount of, of attention and commitment.

On the. daily podcast, Jonathan Swan mentioned. that after Elon had been presented with the key. and the cameras had moved out of the room, Donald Trump had said to him, in a somewhat humiliating fashion that he would no longer be. supporting, Elon's choice to run NASA. A guy called Jared Isaacman did. Is that also important? Do you think that was also triggering for Elon in his then spiral?

Yeah. No. You know, I think Swan always gets the human element wrong. And there is only the human element when it comes to Donald Trump. It's not about agenda. It's not about policy. I think Swan's implication was that, was that, Trump saw this as a power grab by Elon. It it's just a slap in the face. Elon wanted something. Trump decided not to give it to him. And,

Elon apparently wanted this. Very much so. Trump took particular joy in not giving this to him, but not for any other reason other than to take. this slap at Elon Musk wants this, so I'm not going to give it to him. You know, never, never underestimate the pettiness of of. of of certainly certainly of of of Trump and, and. and and no doubt of of Musk too.

And and what you have here, the larger. issue here is that, it is the difference between, between a government run by individuals and, and a government. which is essentially the, the, you know, the function of institutions. And, and, I mean, I can't think of a clearer example of this, the clash of these of these two guys who are all about them.

What I want. What, you know, nobody else really counts. And this now is going on in the within the white House itself. And this is one of the things that happened over, over the weekend, really since, since Thursday, it is very clear. Lee, are you and this is the way, the way, several people in the white House have articulated this to me. Are you team policy or or.

or are you Team Musk? And and if you're Team. Musk, that's that's bad news. I mean, everybody who is who who, who who Musk has brought into the into the government. and it's quite a lot of people, are now taints it. And they have to go through, you know, I mean, they have to now in a very quickly.

prove their absolute devotion to, to Trump, they have abandoned, Musk. and they are and they are on the Trump side. And again, which is another layer of this Trump. White House, the demands for absolute loyalty, I mean, loyalty. So performative, that, that, that, that anyone, anyone with a, with a,

with a scintilla of personal dignity. is, in trouble. How seriously are they taking Elon Musk's criticisms? I mean, this is the first time we've seen someone as powerful as Musk. actually go up against the president. We saw his barrage of tweets. Yes, he's taken some of them down, but are they anxious that he can go out. there, create a real fissure in the Republican Party, maybe start a third party and draw enough support.

away from the MAGA of the Republicans to actually create real difficulties? Well, I mean, where does and then I want to go on to. where does JD Vance sit in on and and I understand that one of the Trump. strengths, one of the things that the people around Trump, count on, rely on, is, is that Trump will always, always go over the top in any conflict.

So he is in, in certain certainly in any head to head, he will take down the other the, the other head. I mean, there is something about Trump that it just, just lets him do what nobody else would do. And now there is now a fear in the white House that Elon, you know, I mean, how do you say this, that Elon is as crazy as Trump, right. He's a worthy rival for Trump. That I mean, we saw Trump trying to solidify all the press connections.

and get his side of the story out because he seemed cool. Every reporter he knew over the weekend to say his side of the party. But now he seems I mean, you've always consistently said Donald Trump. needs an enemy, and now he has an enemy who seems unafraid of them. Yeah. No. And the within the white House, that is that is the sudden, you know, existential thing floating in the air.

What will what might Musk do right. Where would he go? And that was symbolized most of most of all by the Epstein's stuff. So the the absence of floats around Trump. as a, as a consistent, as a consistent threat, as a consistent silver bullet, really.

You know, you know, again, and I think I've said. this here, here before, when when Steve Bannon met. Jeffrey Epstein in the fall of 2017, the first thing he said to. to Epstein was, you were the only person I was afraid of. During the 2016 campaign. And that's still is, is, is this. is this thing that, that, that, that, that floats around? What was going on there?

What did these guys do together? Is that the thing that could kill Trump? And so when, when, when Musk brought that up, it was like, okay, this is this is, you know, he's. going to the line and it seems significant. He's since withdrawn the trip that it seems significant. He's since taken down that tweet. Yes, I mean, I you know, I think that that well, I mean, I, I would read that as, as, as Musk.

this is you know, he made the threat. Now he's back down the threat. Could he could he. and and that's a negotiating moment. But he could always bring back the threat. Right. So can we please talk about JD Vance in all this? What is the white House thinking about his role here and, I mean, certainly some people I've talked to have said that. they think that Musk is actually working to get Donald Trump impeached.

because he would. rather have an all his tech friends would clearly rather have JD Vance. No, I think it's that. Yeah. I mean, I think it's the one of I mean, there are several. gradations of of subtext here. But but this is a, this is a big one. This, this. potentially compromises JD. Vance and JD Vance's future.

I mean, he has JD Vance. is really only hard core support. is in the Tech Row community. You know, he's he's, you know, he's an unlikely Republican. Basically, he's an intellectual. He's he's, I mean, he's only been in office a very short period of time. He doesn't have a long political career. And, you know, and Trump is the,

you know, you know, alternative, of, you know, he's he's sometimes, quite interested in impressed by Vance and he's sometimes dismissive of him. I mean, so, you know, you never know where you are with, with with Trump. So, so his foundation is with these tech guys, and, and with, with Musk being a central pillar of that. He, Vance gets to be the vice president,

or gets to be the vice presidential nomination nominee in. July because in part, well, in strong part because Musk says, his support is dependent on that choice. So what does what does Vance. do now? And, you know, he's got to be, he's got to profess his absolute. loyalty to Trump, or he will,

or he will just be marginalized within the administration. And also, shrewdly, Donald Trump will be suspicious of him. because of Musk's support and because of the tech bro support. Yeah, absolutely. So he will challenge, he will set up what we will see as a set of tests. that that that Vance is going to have. to endure and pass. Otherwise he's he is certainly, for the short term, kind of screwed within the, within the white House. But I don't know what that means to the other side.

If he professes his absolute loyalty to Trump, what about these other these these this his other support group? Well, surely he'll be saying to his other support group on signal. or some other, means of communication that he thinks is private. Listen, I'm just. I have to put out personal, statements of support for Donald Trump. I can't do anything other than perform utmost loyalty. But of course, if you try to impeach him, I'll be there to step in.

I mean, that, you know, it's the. Yeah, I don't I don't know, I mean, I don't think it quite it quite. it's quite as easy as that. You know, there is I mean, people know when you're, you know, when you're blowing smoke, I mean, and Donald Trump is actually very good at this, right? I have seen this. I, I have seen, you know, him, you know, here's here's a man who demands flattery. on a constant basis and yet will call you on it.

You're just flattering me because that's what you have to say. So he not only needs flattery, but he needs flattery. That really seems sincere. So it's fascinating. So the National Guard goes in to LA over the weekend. The first time it's been called in, and certainly against the, will of the governor, Gavin Newsom. To what extent is this an attempt the first time, just say, since 1965.

I mean, this is this is profound, right? No, no, that's why I'm raising it. Is this, actually an attempt, a very cynical attempt, in fact, a shockingly cynical attempt to just change the narrative. Well, I certainly that's an advantage. And within the within the white House, this this this weekend, several people. that I spoke to were saying, thank God for la. And, and you'll notice there is no elan today in the headlines.

It is all it is all la. And and again, this is, this is true. Trump pattern. You know, you change the headline with a bigger headline, and this is a pretty big headline. I mean, this is a, I mean, this is an extraordinary event. among all of the extraordinary events in, since, since January 20th. I'd say this is this is the big one was the big one up until now.

I mean, it's the big one until next week. Yes. No. And and and they're there is, you know, there's a lot of fear. in the white House, too, because when you unleash troops, I mean, you can't tell what's going to happen. And, and within the white House, they're talking about. Well, you know, well, we were, you know, I mean, you know, we just hope. that there isn't another Rodney King is what there is is what they're saying. So this could change on a dime.

Of course, in the Trump method. Well, we would just come up with another headline. Right. And of course that would be the. that would be the invasion of Greenland, probably, or Mexico or. I mean, and also Mark Carney would be an interesting. I mean, he's a more interesting rival than the poor prime minister of Denmark. We we don't even know what he looks like. I mean, I've got so many questions, but, I mean, one of the big changes. since Rodney King and one was mindful of watching people,

witnessing the riots this weekend. was just the number of cell phones out there. To what extent also is this Elon Musk and Donald Trump. trying to drum up business for their social media? Well, you know, I mean, this is and I mean, that sounds. it sounds trivial. But there's billions of dollars at risk for, for each man.

And, and this is the nature of social media. Of course, you, you are making business for yourself. This is great for Twitter x. And it is and it is great for Truth Social. And so you know, one of the things among these, these kind of verticals. at all times working in Donald Trump's head is a cash register. You know, what is my what is my worth? What is my net worth?

And truth social is is is key to that. At this point, he is he has built himself. through truth Social. So through the campaign and getting elected another fortune, a legitimate multi-billion dollar fortune which he never had, by the way, before. Right. And I mean, we had Stephanie Rule on the podcast last week saying that Elon. is one of the possible purchasers of Truth Social with X at some point.

So actually, it's foolish of of Trump. to go after Elon as a potential purchaser, which would actually concretize the value of truth social. Well, you know, I was one of the few people. who could actually write him a check for Truth Social. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to I'm trying to think that that sounds, unlikely. Okay. All right. I mean, yeah, just when she said it, I thought, how interesting.

Because at some point he'll want to mean. I mean, I mean that that question is, is, I mean, you're all you would be buying is Donald Trump. In other words, truth be the last check for all Donald Trump truth truth social. Truth social has no value other than Donald Trump. And, I mean, it has one user, the only the only social network. And I mean, it's otherwise it's it remains a complete ghost town.

It's so I was also. very struck by just the sheer. sort of old fashioned ness of Donald Trump. calling all his reporter friends. and non friends to put his side of the story. Well, that's what he does all of the time. I mean, there is no moment of the day. in which of any day in which that's not going on. Donald Trump has one means of, well, he's two means of communication,

through through a social network, and through the telephone. But it is mostly the telephone. The man is always on the phone, always monopolizing whatever about whatever his point of view is. It is, it is. I mean, it's that it's the small loop that he goes that that he operates in. This is my opinion, and I'm telling you this, and you are there to agree with me.

And sometimes, I mean, most mostly you just go, And sometimes you just repeat the opinion back. I mean, that that that's the only the that's the only give and take. Here's my opinion. Yes. I love your opinion. Here it is. Back again. All right. Well, Michael, this story is obviously, especially then, especially with the National Guard now. And I like going to develop. We'd love to have you back, obviously to to analyze further.

And it's very interesting that the white House is, is fearful of what they may have done or what Donald Trump may have done to. trigger Elon Musk. And it's very clear we don't know quite how dangerous Elon Musk is going to be. Absolutely. And then I wonder, I wonder if, if Elon I mean, that's a kind of decision. for for Elon to make. I mean, how how. does does he go for, you know, Trump goes for broke.

I mean, he, he's he has no risk. calculation in, in his, in his head. And you know, we've seen Elon go for broke quite a number of times, but I suspect he has a greater risk calculation than Donald Trump. Well, then he's probably got advisors. Do you think he listens to his advisors? He's certainly got boards for his company. Who must be saying, wait a minute, just put down the phone.

Not particularly. I mean, I don't think he particularly listens. He might listen more than Donald Trump, who absolutely who never does. and who makes a point of pride of not listening. and will say his success is because he didn't listen. Right? I mean, I'm always and and and and and. but by the way, it is his success is because he doesn't listen well. Well. And it's the founding story of almost all the Silicon Valley founders, right. That they say, everybody told me I couldn't do this.

Everybody said I was crazy. I did it anyway. And now look at me. And that's probably Elon's story, too. Yeah, but Silicon Valley really exists in a. in a fairly tight ecosystem of of. of a of a of a clear hierarchy of of. of who you have to listen to and who you don't have to listen to. You know, I mean, Elon may be somewhat out of it, been out outside of that or above that, but not not entirely entirely.

Whereas Donald Trump is entirely outside of any system. which can control him. It's just extraordinary. It's extraordinary. Michael, thank you so much for shedding clarity on, what is an extraordinary situation that none of us could have seen. the National Guard in, in Paramount, National Guard downtown in LA. And, let's let's track this very closely. And for those of you who want to watch minute by Minute,

Michael is on his Instagram on Michael Wolff NYC. And Michael, I can't wait to talk to you again. I feel like this has to be a daily occurrence. My my. my wolf things. I don't know what else to call them, but I think they wolf things. We will speak soon. Okay. Thank you. Well, there you have it. Analysis from inside the head of Donald Trump,

which is just spilling out across the world. And impacting all of us. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget, you can follow minute by minute. What on earth is going on out there on the Daily beast.com? It's very easy to subscribe. and please subscribe to this podcast and do leave us a comment. We try to read them. It informs how we think about things and I know our guests read them too. And tomorrow we'll be back with Anthony Scaramucci. And the only other thing I have to remind you of is beast.

And this podcast was produced by Devin Roger. Reno, Anna Von Ersan, and it was edited by Jesse Millwood.