Why Everything We Knew About Raising Kids Is Wrong

Hello, I'm Joana Coles, the chief content officer. of The Daily Beast, and you're listening to The Daily Beast. podcast. And my co-host today is the wildly talented Dan Bukitinski. He's an award-winning actor, a writer, a producer. You loved him in scandal. You still love him in hacks. And I guarantee there is no listener who. hasn't laughed at his jokes. Dan is currently in Rome.

But I thought of him for today's discussion. because he's an old friend. And from past discussions, I know. he's interested in family dynamics. And that's what this episode is all about. So if you're a parent, if you're a sibling, if you're a child, if you're an only child, this book. is going to explain so much of your life to you. And you are going to find new ways of thinking about yourself. and the people around you. So stay tuned. Dan even wrote his own book, a hilarious book, called.

Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight? Great Title. It's The Confessions of a Gay Dad. And it's currently a steal, Dan. I don't know if you knew this at $1.99 on Kindle. So hopefully people will go and buy it too. Because it's a great book about parenting. But today, Dan and his husband, Don, are proud parents of two fabulous teenagers, if not always the most easy of teenagers. But then what teenager is? He's a keen observer of humanity. So it's always a pleasure to spend time with him.

So Dan, thank you for joining us. And I'm very pleased to introduce you on air. to an old friend, Susan Dominus. Because today we're diving into the battlefield. of the family home, where alliances are formed, grudges calcify, and no one ever quite. forgets who got the bigger or the best bedroom. Our beast of the week this week is Susan Dominus, who's a long time writer at The New York Times Magazine. And she's now the author of a book.

that had me planning to call my sister the moment. I put it down. And to be fair, my sister and I have only spoken once this year. So that was a big deal, Susan. Thank you. Wow. I want to hear about that. Well, your book is called The Family Dynamic, Why Birth Order, Sibling Rivalry, and Long-Held Roles. Still Shape Us. I loved that The Times asked Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of the powerhouses, Ram and Ari Emanuel, to review it.

And he called it wonderfully engaging. And I agree. It's a deeply reported, often moving, and sometimes funny exploration that. examines how some families produce. multiple high-performance individuals, I think they're called. Think of the Brontes. Every single one of them wrote a novel. Horrifying. But what Susan discovered is that much of the motivation. to achieve came not from parents, but from their siblings. So if you're a failure, you might actually. be blaming the wrong person.

Anyway, it's all fascinating. Welcome, Susan. And congrats on the book. I can't believe there isn't anybody. who's interested in this book because everybody. knows the issues of families. But you start the book with a memory of when you were a child. and you go to spend time with another family. and you realize that family rituals are different. And in fact, they were going around the table. doing math problems. Can you just talk a little bit about what actually set you.

down the path of writing this book sort of 40 years. after that incident? Yeah, that was a really interesting--. my parents used to go away for travel for two weeks at a time. And I would go stay with--. and they would sort of drop us with family friends. People used to do that kind of thing two weeks at a time. And this family dinner table for them, dinner table conversation. with them, was very elaborate math games. The father returned to one of the three sons. and say, a plane is leaving Cleveland flying 2,000 miles.

an hour and another is leaving New York two hours later. At what point will they cross? And then we talk about current events over dinner. That was sort of the expectation. And I thought, is this happening at every other household? But mine. And I just love watching the boys do this math in their head. I thought it was great fun until one day Michael Goldie turned. to me and said, so Susie, a plane. is leaving and I burst into tears. Horrifying. Horrifying. So stressful. My brain went completely blank. And in my own home, my father always.

likes to say that there was one role of the dinner table, which. was we had to chew with our mouths closed. That was very strictly enforced. Quite also quite hard to do. Yes, especially if you're nine years old. But I think that I became like a familyologist. I was always very interested after that. What was happening in other families? And I sort of collected string. You know, I was obsessed with like the Kennedy dinner table. rituals and the football games and things like that. And then of course, like many bookish nerdy girls.

But what's funny is I didn't just love the Bronte's fiction. I was very obsessed with how did they all come to be the Bronte's? How could three such talented young women. all write groundbreaking, innovative, beautiful works. of fiction? What was going on in that household? Were they-- you know, so I was just genuinely--. I think I was a kind of ambitious little kid myself, like maybe weirdly so. And I wanted to know what was going on. There was not going on at my house. There were other wonderful things going on at my house.

well, but it wasn't like this concerted enrichment, you know, this cultivated kind of thing. It's fascinating because we as parents, all of us, all parents, you know, are so obsessed with what they have control over. and what they do not have control over. And one would like-- you know, a parent would like to think. that-- and you listen to parents when they're expecting--. their expectations of the child they're expecting are so great. A mind's going to be an unfair pianist.

Mine is going to be the first female president. And you already know, you already start. to see the needs of their expectation growing. while that fetus is growing. This is why your book I found riveting on so many levels. And your own curiosity, your own personal curiosity, drives the narrative and your research and every conversation, every family in a way that echoes our own. I mean, how much of it is us? How much can we really, you know, control and/or shape.

and/or cajole our kids towards success? And how much are their siblings or the competition. they have with their siblings? The thing that's driving them towards success? I just wonder, because you called the book a mystery, and I wonder if, when you finished it, you felt like it was less of a mystery. or it still remained a mystery. I think this should be a relief to parents. I think it is still a mystery. I mean, there is no secret code to this.

I mean, first of all, there's also a tremendous amount of luck. I mean, most successful people would say that luck played a huge--. there was always some fortuitous moment that could have. gone a very different way. But the idea that, you know, a parent can make their kid. into something and then not only make their kid into something, but like control the sibling dynamics. so that they interact for maximum productivity or achievement, I do think the best thing parents can do. is create a spirit of possibility. You know what I mean? Possibility without pressure.

So like, I knew somebody who named their kid Galileo. Maybe not that. Like, that seems like a lot to lay at a kid's feet. But to sort of say, look, if you want to reach for the moon, you can reach for the moon. Like, that is within your power. And we've seen people do it and people you know have done it. Without saying, you must reach for the moon. You must touch the moon. We will be satisfied with nothing less. than you have touched the moon. So, you know, there's only so much control parents do have. The way it basically works is who kids are is, you know,

some big portion of what accounts for the difference. among population-- people in a population is--. it's their genes. There is some genetic component to it. But that's not everything. Huge part of it is the environment. And parenting is just one small part of that. The environment is everything else. It's the video games they play. It's, was their bedroom sunny? Did they see a cool movie about whales one day? You know, it's just-- it could be anything. It's their teachers. It's their neighborhood. So I think parents should like create opportunity, create a sense of opportunity, optimism,

but recognize with humility that there only is so much you can do. Well, and one of the things that you raise in the book--. and certainly we talked about when I ran into you--. was this under-- really understudied fact. of the sibling relationships. And in your book, you alternate between chapters. about specific families. And one of the families is the Groff family. Lauren Groff, a well-known novelist, her brother Adam, who's a serial entrepreneur, and then their athlete sister, Sarah. And I was fascinated by what was clearly competition.

within the family among the siblings. And whether or not parents unwittingly or wittingly. create that sibling rivalry, can you. talk a little bit about that? I mean, I can speak to the Groffs. So I think that the parents in that family, what they created. was a tremendous sense of energy and an emphasis. on productivity. You know, one friend of Lauren said to me, you know, there's some houses you can kind of hang around.

and eat ice cream and watch TV. That was not the Groff house. So there was an emphasis on doing. But I don't know that the parents were so involved. that they were actively fostering competition. The siblings would say it was all between them. You know, I mean, obviously they were trying to please somebody. But to hear them say it, it was all. about proving themselves to each other, much more. to each other than necessarily to their parents. I mean, they wanted to make their parents proud. But the red, hot, emotional motivation.

that came from comparing, contrasting the siblings. themselves, that was my sense. So Sarah, to basically say, what were you going to say, Dan? No, but just think about that. Think about the notion of a family where from birth. we know that the gaze of the mother means life to an infant, right? Getting her attention means life. So as an infant, we learn that there's only so much attention. There's only so much food. So naturally, a sibling comes into the picture.

and there's natural competition just for those basic things. So true. Jump a few knees ahead and Father Groth. is offering a dollar for whoever can jump in that pool. when the mucky pool gets opened. You know, very quickly, they are learning the value. to that dad of doing something for that buck. So Dan, let's explain the anecdotan for, because if you. haven't read the book yet, it's hard to know. But they open the pool at the beginning of the summer. It's freezing.

It's got all sorts of bugs on it from over the winter. And then sometimes they have to break the ice on it even. And he offers them a dollar to--. is it to stay in for whoever stays in longest? They all have to stay in a minute, but it's whoever stays in longest, right? There is actually a differing memory. Some thought maybe you just have to stay in for a minute. Lauren remembers that as a competition. She's a very competitive person by her own admission. And so it was--. to me, that was less about the siblings being. pitted against each other. And it was more about instilling this value of toughness.

They call it graffiness in the family. And you know, both Janine Graff, their mom, and their dad. came from very hard scrabble backgrounds. I mean, her dad had actually been in an orphanage, because the finances were so tough. So here he is, this doctor and a very genial, benevolent human. being, for sure. But I think in the back of his mind, some part of him wanted his kids to be as resilient and as. tough as he was. But he also was--. he went to college and played--.

he was a college athlete. Those people are naturally competitive. And so I do think there's something. that is just in the air. But you're right. I mean, it's not just that the siblings come out. and find each other. They're coming out of a paternal and paternal context. And then maybe even if they think it's about each other, it is about something else. It sort of takes on a light of its own, I would say. Because yeah, the parental stuff was for this family, at least. I think it was at more of a remove.

Yeah, yeah. It's complicated, right? Because I mean, I have a sister. We're 19 months apart. And I don't think we are professionally competitive. We really diversified also. She went into media and I'm a journalist. But I think sometimes with our parents, even though our parents are in their late 80s, sometimes I do think that we are competing for their attention, even as middle-aged women. That's so fascinating. Dan, you have a sister. Are you competing for your mom's attention? Oh, my God. That's such a complicated question. I think as a young kid, I was always--.

there's two things happening. One, I was always a performer. So I was always making jokes and trying. to get the family to laugh and dancing as fast as I can. and sort of getting their attention. by any chance that I could. And my sister was a reader and more quiet and more shy. So I was perceived as the favorite. But I was secretly gay and had tons of shame about it.

and was trying to navigate this idea that if I could cover. for what is a horrible, horrible fact, I can maybe win them over and it won't matter so much. So there was so much going on there. But if you'd asked my sister, she always. felt like she was in the shadow of her brother. And I always looked up to my sister. But we're extremely close as adults. And my parents were Argentinian immigrants.

who were not parented in the ways that we are parents. and are the way that we parent our children by any stretch. And in many ways, the deficits in their getting love. and attention from their immigrant scrappy, trying to just make a buck parents put it on to us. to provide them with the love that they never got. So it is so complicated. I mean, this is why you've bit off such a huge subject matter. because there are so many factors.

and each one's so different. Well, let's talk about birth order as a factor too, because we assume that somehow the older child is. the more responsible, the younger gets to try. You know, the younger becomes the rebel. But in fact, what you discover is that that's not really true. Certainly, if you were going to break it down by personality, like conscientiousness is one of the big five personality traits. And we all assume, oh, it's all over TikTok, right? Oldest sister syndrome. And the best conducted research on birth order. and its effect on personality with a wide of samples.

has basically found that we tanked. that there is no effect of birth order on personality. and that we tend to think that the oldest child is. the most responsible because they are the oldest. But if the middle sibling, when that sibling. reaches the same age, you know, if you compare them, who are able to compare them at the same age, they might be equally or it might even go the other way. And also, if you take the oldest sibling in a family. and compare them to the general population, they may not be particularly conscientious, you know, relative to the rest of the population.

So it's not as formative. Again, there's so many things going on in a child's life. Birth order is really only one of them. And also, each of those siblings comes into the world. with a certain genetic inheritance. That factors towards people's personalities. So, you know, what you do see is the oldest sibling. tends to have the cognitive edge. This comes up over and over and over. You really expect to see this at this point. The oldest child, even by age one, if you compare the oldest child to their siblings,

when those siblings reach the age of one, the oldest child scores higher on cognitive tests. And they think it's because it's one of the best, well, some of the best proof we have. that enrichment early on really matters. They think it's about, as you were saying earlier, Dan, not having to share your parents' gaze. and attention and focus. That just that, you know, they're an only child. for longer than the other siblings, and it apparently makes a real difference. So you have the oldest child who's the most academic,

and then the other siblings, they become kind of like. the funny one, or they become the sports one. They tend to differentiate a little bit. because that lane has taken. This is on average, I should say, as the youngest of three, I'm just gonna put it out there. And the effects are small, but it's real. Like, even people who believe. there's no effective birth order on personality whatsoever, and that's all a big crock, they will all acknowledge that, except for this one thing, which is cognitive strength. Weird, right? It's very interesting.

My young, I have one younger sister. who's five years younger than me, sometimes six. So we have a big gap, and people often observe to us. that we were like single only children. It was like we were a family of two only children, and she was actually much more successful. than I was academically. I think she worked harder, and she got better exam results than I did. And we're very different. We're very different. We're close, but we're different. But it definitely made me want to call her, but Susan, can you change the family dynamics?

'Cause I think one thing that families sometimes know. is they're sort of stuck in this dynamic. Is it possible to sort of move those boundaries? Yeah, I mean, I think we all see this in our own lives. But I do think sometimes it takes an external force. that is as powerful as family. So, I mean, again, not to draw on my own family, but one of my sons went away to this incredible summer camp. that's all about cultivating young men. who don't have toxic masculinity. And there was something about two months.

and immersed with this other environment of older young men. he looked up to, and he came back. And he was kind of, he was able to reset the dynamic. He said some things to us. about what he felt comfortable with, what he wanted to change. I hope he wouldn't mind my sharing this with you. But he's in distance allowed him to see something. So that's just my example. But it's not easy, right? Patterns get very ingrained. It takes probably some real self-awareness. So personality also hard to change, but we know that one of the things that changes,

for example, neuroticism, one of the other big personality traits, therapy. It's, you know, therapy does help. And, you know, I'm a big believer. and I think family therapy can be really meaningful. for people because you stop saying things within a family. because it's the air you breathe. It's the water that you don't even notice. And so, so much goes unsaid. and therapy just forces all of that stuff. to get said and acknowledged. I cannot imagine anything worse. than going for family therapy, either with my own family, with my parents,

with my sister, or my own kids. I think if I suggested to my kids, we went for family therapy, they'd be horrified. But Dan, you're from California. What do you think? - Well, I'm in therapy, listen, I've been in therapy. My husband's been in therapy. Each of my kids have been in therapy. and we've been in group therapy. So there's lots of therapy happening in our family. But also we're a very untraditional family. I mean, Don and I adopted our two kids. We're both dads. The nature-nurture battle has been something.

that obviously has been extremely relevant. and prevalent in our thinking from the very beginning. We made an assumption when we adopted our kids, when we decided to become parents. We made an assumption. I quoted a few things when I was reading the book. The underestimation of the nurture effect, right? But I think we also underestimate the nature effect. How much DNA, you talk about that in the book as well. - Yeah, yeah. - How powerful DNA is.

You know, I have, both of my kids come. from the same birth mom from Wisconsin. who was a mountain dude drinking, smoking, you know, Midwesterner who couldn't be more different. than a gay Jewish dad from Los Angeles. And raising my kids in whatever way we felt. was the right way or the books told us was the right way. And we nurtured them and reflected back. what we thought were good choices.

and all those words that made me wanna blow my head off. and still do. My kids are exactly who they were going to be. And this is just such an interesting part. of the book itself to what degree we have to embrace. the fact that that infant is on a path. much of which has nothing to do with us. And the discovery of that too late, if you ask me. - Too late, interesting. - Do you think parents blame themselves. for things that are beyond their control?

I feel like the parents get blamed. for everything at this point. - I think parents do get blamed. for things that are beyond their control. But also I think that they, you know, because they think they have more control, they can do more, they can do real damage. So for example, I had parents say to me, "I don't understand, you know, I have these two daughters. I've raised them the same way. I set the expectations the same for both of them. And one of them is meeting the expectations. And the other one isn't.". And I wanted to say to her, "You have to know they're different children. and probably different expectations. are appropriate for them. Because we know that if you set the expectations too high,

that is a recipe for anxiety. If your child is not inclined that way, is not every kid can be an A plus student. And if you just say, well, yeah. - Who says it's the job of the kid. to meet their parents' expectations? - Right, right, right. - Are you kidding? This is the thing. Like I have this revelation, like of course, you don't, listen, my kids didn't ask to be born. They certainly were not involved in the question. or the decision making of being adopted,

which is a whole other subject for a whole other book. But their own feelings about who they are, how they wound up where they did, they have no business necessarily, meeting our expectations or even hearing what they are. It's so interesting that some of the tools. that came out of the testing, that, you know, some of the scientific testing. that they did, what language you use. when you tell them what's possible, what you tell them what you hope they will do, or what you model for them and show them what's possible.

and just hope that they pick up on it, are such different and interesting approaches. to how to parent into their adulthood. I found it riveting. - I wanted to ask you one thing. You often hear of people who don't speak to a sibling. Siblings seem to be the easiest people not to speak to. Or you just hear people just no longer talk to that sibling. I'm wondering how people, if there's anybody listening. who's got that situation and perhaps as they've gotten older,

they're trying to figure out, I would actually like to have more contact with the sibling. What is the sort of, are there particular ways to do it? I mean, I do think that probably parents have impact. in setting siblings up against each other possibly, or there may be complicated reasons. why the siblings no longer communicate, some of which may come out of childhood. But is that something that you think is a good thing. for people to do to get back in touch. with people they've lost touch with?

- Even Dolan just wrote a lovely book called, and quite poignant book called "The Power of Parting", which is mostly about his own toxic mother. and how long it took him to completely break off ties. with his mother. And he basically advocates for, if there's someone who does not treat you as well. as a friend should, there's nothing healthy about staying in that relationship. If it's really toxic, it's not your job. to spend your life trying to fix it. I can't weigh in on whether somebody should or shouldn't. with siblings or even parents, but there is something a friend of mine who was one of them.

who said a lovely event for "In Honor of the Book". And when she spoke, she acknowledged. that there's no one who can incite fury in her, the way that a sibling, one of her siblings can. She tells a story in a room full of people. about throwing a yogurt in a car, like right at her sibling. I mean, I definitely related to that. because these are relationships. that go back to that red hot fury you felt as a toddler. And so I think when you feel that anger towards a sibling, it's summoning up that toddler rage.

and that kind of almost inarticulate resentment. of whatever it is. So I think it's fraught. - We fight in the car. We talk about a long car ride when you're eight. With your sibling, you're willing to punch their face. against the window. You would never do that to another kid. That feeling when you become an adult can get tripped so easily. My mother and her sister do not have such a terrible relationship.

And they're trying really hard later in life. One's eight, five, one 79. And I keep telling them like, you have a shared, you have some shared history. You have points of connection. Forget about the points of disconnection. because there are very many and they're obvious. But the only thing you have is a point of connection. that and drive in the direction of those because otherwise.

you're going to be shoving her 85 year old face. against the windshield. (laughing). - I hope that doesn't happen. Well, Susan, it's a fascinating book. Thank you very much for your time. And you've left me with the image now of Dan, you know, Dan's poor aunt having her 85 year old father. face smashed against the windscreen of the car. But it's a fascinating book. And just the sort of the fact that siblings have known you. so long and we all go through transformations as we get older.

But the idea that they knew the original you. is clearly a source of power for many siblings. Anyway, it's fascinating. - Whether you're a sibling or not, any parent, any parent or anybody about to become a parent. should read this book. There is so much in there. - That is helpful in terms of both your scientific research, your personal anecdotes, and these really interesting family snapshots. Each one different from the one before it.

That gives a lot of insight into how little we really have. to say about how successful our kids become. - I so appreciate that Dan, so beautifully summed up. And Joanna, it's just such a treat to spend this time. with you as well and get to know you Dan. So I just can't thank you guys enough. Thank you. - Thank you for joining us. - Bye guys. Thank you so much. - Congrats. - Bye. So Dan, I'm expecting you to be transformed as a parent now. Transformed by this book.

Dan will never make the pressure of himself. He's a writer, he's an actor, he's a producer. He's a endless threat, a quintuple threat. - My daughter's 20 and is in Rome with us right now. And she won't leave her hotel room. She's 20, so we got her her own room, which we thought would be the respectful thing to do. of a grown woman. She has, she's in Rome. She's in Rome, would you understand? She's in Rome. She's been flown to Rome by her parents. She hasn't left her hotel room. And today I got her out to a pizza making class.

And I almost wept because I got to see my daughter. step out of her hotel and make some pizza. But I don't know what, you know, how do you create expect? You can't turn someone into someone who wants. to see the sights in Rome. - Who wants what you want for them, right? Cause the issue is you want her to become educated. and sophisticated and a world class traveler. by getting to know Rome. And of course that's not what she wants. - No, she wants a mountain dew.

She wants a mountain dew, probably, and a pack of Benson and hedges, which I'm not gonna buy her. - So Dan, how are you going to get your daughter. out of her hotel room? - Well, today worked. Today was, we have one more day left. But so we took two, we did two cooking classes. One on the third day we were here, pasta. - Delicious. - And one, okay, that was pizza. But both took an enormous amount of texting, prodding, tears, and you know, this is not,

the idea of going to Rome, I think was very exciting to her. But the actuality of someone who has social anxiety, here's the truth of it. My kid is neurodiverse and has social anxiety. and the impact of the pandemic on our kids. who were coming of age right around that time, 12, 13, 15, those ages. The impact of that on each kid is so unqualifiable.

It really is hard to know what it has done to them. until you sort of experience them. And she's having a hard time with adulting. and she's nervous to make big moves. And a city like Rome on the week of the conclave. is packed with people. - Oh my goodness, you were there for the conclave. - I can't believe they didn't ask me to come in. and weigh in 'cause I had some--. - Well, I know you would have done, you would have had thoughts, you would have had thought even though you weren't Catholic, you would have known exactly who would look best in the robes.

- Duh, and also listen, I've watched every season. of America's Next Top Model. and I feel like there are values. that one learns from a show like that, that they can also bring into who would make the best pope. I mean, it would be an excellent, I don't know, I think they should do it more often. and it would make a great reality show. - Yeah, they should do it more often, I agree. I can't believe you were there for the conclave. And of course, your poor daughter, to be fair, you live in LA, you're, what are you, eight hours ahead, they're nine hours ahead.

It's terrible jet lag from LA to Europe, it's chronic jet lag. I always hate that trip, that's hard. So she's probably just getting round to it. - Exactly, 3 a.m. she falls asleep, she doesn't wake up until 2 p.m. The class that we've signed up for is at 3 p.m. And I'm like, get up, brush your teeth, come downstairs, the car's waiting for us, you know? And yesterday, the only thing she was looking forward to. was this horseback riding trip, an hour out of Rome.

And she didn't make it, she didn't come. And I went by myself, I didn't even want to go. horseback riding and it was quite an experience. - Well, at least you stayed upright by the looks of it, you didn't fall off. - I did my back, you know, doesn't feel great, I'm not 24 anymore, but I did do it, I did do it. - I think I'm seeing a whole new array. of potential reality shows here. The conclave on horseback, something like that. - Conclave Island, I think has been something no one's thought of.

- Conclave Island, so good. - 12 international cardinals are, you know, alone in Fiji. with, you know, a lot of tequila and a bunch of things. that they had, a bunch of, you know. - A bunch of tasks they have to do, who ends up with who? Who ends up with who? - We're gonna burn in hell, okay. - Oh, we're definitely gonna burn in hell. - Dan, I'm so thrilled to have you as a co-host, please come back soon. Your questions are terrific, it's very good to get a different point of view,

and I wish you the very best for your last day in Rome. - All right, thank you, I need it, but it's been great. when I'm, I just have to stop shopping. As a way of feeding my, you know, the hole in my, in my soul, I just find clothing. that I think might actually do it. - I love shopping in Rome, it's such a beautiful place, it's a beautiful city. - We'll do it together next time. - Okay, we'll do a podcast from Rome, live. - No, right. - Perfect, perfect. - Okay. - I miss you. - Okay, onwards, go to Valentino for me.

- I will, I will, bye. - Bye.