Why Epstein's Shadow Still Haunts Trump | The Daily Beast Podcast

I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and over the past. year, we've taken you deep into some of the most shocking, twisted. and revealing corners of the Trump and Epstein worlds. And today we're looking back at some of our most extraordinary episodes. We've had Michael Wolff, the prolific Trump chronicler, walk us through the explosive fallout between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Remember Elon, and explain why Jeffrey Epstein's shadow. still looms over the 47th president of the United States.

I sat down with Stacy Williams, a former Sports Illustrated model. who told her story of encounters with Epstein and Trump, moments. that reveal just how brazen and frankly revolting these men were. We were also joined by Clio Glyde, who, at just 22, enjoyed the glamor of New York's fashion scene in the 80s. when she was a model and found herself swept into Epstein's orbit. Meeting Trump through him and seeing the glittering, dangerous.

mix of power and charm that masked the darker truths. We revisited the Scandal That Shook the World with Tina Brown, who not only broke the Epstein story decades ago, but now reflects on why. this scandal continues to haunt Trump and has fractured his base from within. And finally, Michael Wolff returned to unpack Epstein's shadowy. empire, his ties to MAGA figures and the unspoken truths. surrounding the pedophiles ignominious end.

Each of these conversations is a window into ambition, power. and the moral compromises that surround it, and I promise you won't want to miss a moment. So stay with me, because we're diving back into it all. Michael, when we. last spoke, less than 24 hours ago, we were waiting for Donald Trump. to respond to Elon Musk's criticism of the big beautiful bill.

Now we seem to be into full on. WWE fight. Explain what's going on. You know, well, as as we discussed. yesterday, everybody comes a cropper with Donald, Donald Trump. Donald Trump is going to screw you and you're going to be screwed. So. there has never been someone in a position. to try to screw Donald Trump back.

And so we have a new paradigm. The richest man in the world. And the most powerful man in the world, locked in a blood feud. And who's going to win? It could go either way. It has escalated into, into the into nuclear territory. within the last, what, 30 minutes? Right. And that's we're talking Elon Musk has just fired back. at Donald Trump, who accused him of missing the glamor of the white House.

I mean, you made a very good point in the podcast we dropped today, actually, earlier saying no one leaves the white House voluntarily. Donald Trump then today, possibly having heard you, makes the point that Elon already misses the glamor of the white House. This is what happens when people leave the white House. There was a carefully on the part of the white House, no suggestion that Elon had been forced out, said Elon had been fired.

I mean, this is the way men of affairs do this. They there is no you are fired. There is no reality show denouement. But now Trump is saying, yes, I fired him. We pushed him out. Forget him. But Elon today dropped an absolute bomb. It may not be a total nuclear bomb that's in Trump's camp, but he dropped. the bomb of Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. Does he mean it is the nuclear I mean, I think it has been you know, it is that that I mean, this is issue that I'm particularly interested in.

because because I've been involved in and actually I've been the one who has. dropped the bomb or tried to drop the bomb because it's absolutely true. I mean, Donald Trump, that here is the the story. hiding in plain sight for a very long time now. Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. were the best of friends for a very long time. For 15 years, they shared girlfriends. They shared airplanes, they shared business strategy.

They shared tax advice or sexual actually, they shared how to not pay taxes. They were inseparable. And as I've said on the Daily Beast podcast and in other venues, I have seen the pictures of Donald Trump. and Jeffrey Epstein's girls together. Last November, just before the election, we ran tapes that you had provided us. of Jeffrey Epstein talking extremely intimately about Donald Trump.

What are the specifics in the files that they won't release? I mean, the files and I don't know if if Elon knows, you know, the idea of files may be a meme. It may be something specific, including those pictures. which were in all probability in the safe when the FBI came. and and raided Jeffrey Epstein's house after he was arrested.

So perhaps that's one of the things that that Elon. is very specifically referring to. But I think in general it is it could also. be the Epstein file writ large in the, the, the scope of of the Jeffrey Epstein life. intersects with the Donald Trump life. in a very meaningful and profound way. These guys kind of made each other.

And he Donald Trump is obviously very sensitive about this relationship. Now completely actually, when interviewed Trump at one point. and, you know, they sort of the the people around him. ask you, you know, just give us an idea of the topics. And I gave a whole bunch of topics and including Epstein. and all of the other topics, they said, fine, but but if you ask about Epstein, he will end the interview and you won't get anything. Have you ever spoken to him about Epstein?

I said once to him, oh, we know someone in common. Is the one person you're the one, you know? And he froze. Right. So, I mean, you predicted that this would happen. And 2 or 3 months ago when we spoke and I said, if it comes down to. it between Elon and Donald Trump, who will win? And you said Donald Trump. But what's fascinating here is they've both. got their own social platforms that they can go after each other.

And as you said, we've got the richest man in the world. now going after the most powerful man in the world. And one of the things that we have talked about. and I find so puzzling, is that nobody seems to stand up to Trump. And finally, we have Elon, which may turn out to be his. gift to the world standing up to Donald Trump. Nobody goes after Donald Trump because he'll kill you. Because he is. He has the ability to do well. Just think about Ron DeSantis.

Ron DeSantis. tried to stand up to Donald Trump in a in a very procedural electoral way. I'm going to run against you. Boom. He destroyed Ron DeSantis. Well, Ron. Ron DeSantis arguably also destroyed himself. I mean, he went after Disney. He's not a charismatic politician, though. He's an able politician. He's certainly. not a charismatic politician, but he's a perfectly ordinary politician. who who in this, in the scheme of things, was a plausible contender. Certainly he he has his numbers in Florida.

in virtually everyone up until a certain point. Regarded, Ron DeSantis as a certainly. as a, as a potential Trump killer until Trump kills him. I mean, he just literally went out and pulverized him and all of this. I mean, what we understand now as Ron DeSantis lack of charisma, more than a lack of charisma, the worst politician in the history of bad.

politicians is all Donald Trump's doing so. And he will now. I mean, two things will either happen, he will go after Elon in that same way, and we will see if Elon then can, you know, has the. has the chops, the fortitude and the gift to go after Donald Trump. And then it's a game or this is. both guys going to the nuclear brink. And then they will then they will back off and there will be some negotiation.

and settlement. Right. It was pretty interesting that Elon said you would never have got elected. without my money. The Democrats would have won the House. There should be a third party. Maybe I'm going to finance a third party. Totally. Just, extraordinary. I mean, we are possibly walking through a new portal. into something that we that we have, not that we have never seen before. And it is that and, you know, I think we have to say this on.

Well, you know, we've always talked about the power of money in politics, but this might really be the power of money and politics. And the fact they've both got their own social platforms. You said literally on the podcast that we drop today, yes, he's the president. He's also running Truth Social. And this is the perfect vehicle for him to perfect. And again, remember, part of Trump. now stepping forward to go after Elon.

is that Trump is saying fantastic, bring it on. All right. This is what what I live for. This is what has has made me give me an enemy okay. What's a bigger enemy than Harvard? I was just going to say Alan Garber, president of Harvard, must be exhaling. that the attention spotlight from Donald Trump has moved swiftly on to Elon Musk. Also hard to know with Elon's unpredictable behavior. what he does now and who's advising him, and whether or not his Tesla board.

or his big Tesla shareholders are going to say to him, Elon, you need to back off. This is not a race you can win. Well. And would he listen to him? I mean, Elon and Trump are in in that sense evenly matched. Who advises them. Well nobody really. They advise they advise themselves. You know the occurred to me when Elon started to go after the big beautiful bill. and call it an abomination or, or whatever.

I thought, oh my God. You know, Elon is Zelenskyy. and this is exactly what got Zelenskyy into trouble in the Oval Office. And I think that that's true. I think somebody coming after Trump in that way cannot be ignored. He's going to go after that person. He's going to he's going to go to try to kill that person. And that's obviously what's happened. But again, the issue is, has he ever gone. after someone with the resources of Elon Musk?

And also, is there a diabolical possibility. that Elon is doing this to win back all those Tesla customers that. walked away, that walked away from Tesla? Well, we know that Tesla sales have dropped by 50% in Europe. If you were a conspiracy theorist, you might. think, oh, Elon is doing this on purpose. If you were a smart Democrat, you would immediately start courting him. You want the money, you want his support, and he can somehow.

absolve himself of all the work he did at Doge. Well, I think it's also also that Elon is like Trump. I he understands the value of an enemy and Trump is a pretty good enemy. Well, we've got two extraordinary dinosaurs fighting each other now. It's like a triceratops and a Tyrannosaurus rex. And you're like, well, they've both got, different powers now. And then one of the things I just get an email after email.

after email about people asking me if in the Doge data collection, they have gotten a hold of Epstein. material maintained by the government or the FBI. Has Doge delved into the FBI? I thought it was more concerned with sort of USA and the Education Department. I think the the point is, Doge is everywhere. Those is all powerful. So if you Elon,

you could have left all sorts of little tech bombs waiting to go off. I'm straining at the edges in my imagination here to try. and think what could have been in that safe. that would be so damning to Donald Trump, because there is still a sense. that he could stand, as he once predicted, on Fifth Avenue, and shoot someone and nobody would care. Well, I mean, I think that that is that that is the point. I mean, I remember Steve Bannon said to me, if there were ever photographs and this was specifically related.

to the Russian investigation, Trump would merely say, that's not me, that's somebody's. Fake news. And I think that that is probably true. I mean, what why? I mean, this hasn't been pinned on him yet. Why should it now be pinned on him? But but who. Knows? Elon could have a whole team at grok. AI now just working on imagery, convincing imagery of Trump. And how would we know? Yeah. No, and I, I and listen, I have seen these pictures.

I know that these pictures exist and I can I can describe them. There are about a dozen of them. The ones I specifically remember is, is the two of them. with topless girls of an uncertain age sitting on Trump's lap, and then Trump. standing there with a with a stain on the front of his pants, and 3. or 4 girls, kind of bent over in laughter. They're topless too, pulling in at, Trump's pants.

God, it's the ultimate in toxic masculinity. This right now, isn't it? Well, it would be interesting if if, you know, toxic masculinity. on this side, kills or cancels out. toxic masculinity on this other side? Yeah. I think we need RFK junior to the rescue with the vaccine. With an anti vaccine. Michael, excellent to check in with you. Will be coming back to you the minute this escalates. and indeed as you say they've both deployed the nuclear option.

Who knows what's happening next. Stacey Williams, very pleased to have you on the show. Obviously, I remember your Sports Illustrated covers. We have spent an inordinate amount of time on this podcast mystified. by why Donald Trump is so anxious about the Jeffrey Epstein story. And one of our regular contributors, Michael Wolff, talks a lot. about understanding the relationship between the two of them,

which particularly flourished during the 90s in the model era. You were a model, and you knew both men. You dated Jeffrey Epstein, you had already met Donald Trump. And I would love to to hear from you first, how you got into modeling, because it was many young women's fantasies to be a model. And then tell us about the life of being a model in the 90s. Well, you know, I think my, my career hit its peak in the 90s,

but I actually moved to New York when I was 18 years old, in 1986. That's when I was right after high school. graduation, I was on the first thing smoking to New York. And so, you know, when I arrived, it was, you know, think about the, the, the sort of social landscape. of that period in New York. I mean, the industry was riddled with a lot of, carnage from Aids. It was actually quite a devastating time.

Because, I mean, every day I'd go to work in a different. Yeah, I'd find out different hair, makeup artist or designer or someone who had passed. And, so it was. Yeah. Stacey just stepping back. How did you know you were going into modeling? Because not everybody can be a model. Yeah. So, well, you know, I think by the time I hit, I was like, you know, nine, 14 years old, and I was 511 and weighed like 120 pounds. Were like, oh, you look like a model. You should become a model.

You know, I think there's just that standard, like, you're tall and skinny, you should. You know, that idea, that that indicates you should be a model. And I heard it about it a lot. It was confusing because I think and a lot of models will share this, you know, I was sort of being ridiculed at school. I was called olive oil. I mean, I was wasn't, a lot of us are particularly gawky as teenagers. But somehow that translates really well in fashion. So, I don't think I totally bought into it that I could have become one. And then, you know, basically a former model,

from Philadelphia saw me at the mall. I mean, where else would it be? I'm Gen X, right? So I'm hanging at the mall outside the Orange Julius, and this former model. saw me and said, you know, you could make money, you know, like, you could do model, like you can work for department stores in Philadelphia. And, you know, I was working I was working as a janitor and, and a fast food restaurant making $3.35 an hour. And I went down to Philly and I got booked. right away for a John Wanamaker, which is like a local department,

Pennsylvania department store from back in the day. And I worked for them, and I think I got $1,200 of the day. And I was like. Wow, you went from the janitor to $1,200 one. And I remember the last check I got that overlaps. So I got the last check from the fast food restaurant. and then a check from the department store had come in, and I think I'd worked like 30 hours or something in the fast food place, and it worked out to be like 45 bucks, you know? And then I remember the $1,200 check came in from you know, having fun in a studio in Philadelphia and people doing my hair and makeup.

And I thought, I think I know, which. I think I know where to spend my time. or you know, what to what to pursue at this point. So you moved from Philadelphia to New York? Yeah. So the agencies in New York somehow saw photos of me from Philadelphia, and some photographers had sent them up to agencies. There, and they started calling and saying, Will you please come in and meet with me? And I got signed by an agency called Zoli. At the time, I was with them briefly, and then,

I got a lot of calls from Monique Pollard at, at elite, who she was sort of the vice president of Elite Models under John Casablancas. And I went there and I was with elite for many years in New. York, and elite was really the elite of the modeling agencies, wasn't it? I mean it to have everybody. Yes. And then, you know, they all have satellite agencies. So there's elite Paris and, you know, elite Munich and all these agencies. So you were traveling around the world modeling. And what were the kind of men. that you came across doing this, including the photographers and the.

and the makeup artists, many of whom I get a gay, but some of them are not. You know, we were shit magnets. Young, pretty teenage girls. What kind of men do they attract? So yes, there were there were Saudi princes. There were very wealthy bankers. There were politicians. You know, I think it's not. that different than what it is today in a way, you know, so,

yes, powerful, wealthy men who liked arm candy, were were part of our, our orbit rock stars. Right. But but I think it had even more, kudos back in the 90s because there was also. the sort of there was the excitement about the supermodels. Kate Moss, Naomi Campbell, Cindy Crawford. Nowadays, I think it's shifted a little bit because of the influencers.

and models like celebrities have become more democratized. But at the time, it felt like you were an elite force, didn't it? The most attractive women? Oh, the business is unrecognizable now. I mean, every now and again I'll speak to someone an age in our book. or I've known from back in the day and they're like, it's just, you know, it's about clickbait now, nepo babies and clickbait. But most of us were just, you know, girls. from very normal Middle American,

Midwestern kind of experiences, who'd been discovered just because, we had a certain look that, worked and enabled us to. procure work, for our image. And we were sent, you know, to New York. And, it's totally different now. Now it's, you know, you have to build a following. And as you said, it democratizes it a bit, but the middle's fallen out, you know, so you could be a totally unknown like every other industry.

The middles fallen out. Right? So, so there's like a handful at the top making a fortune. And then there's a million down below, you know, maybe hoping for 1 or 2 jobs or, or calling themselves models because they have a certain number. of Instagram followers. I mean, it's completely, changed, in the digital, in the digital era. But I was going to say you could have you know, a really lucrative career just shooting.

Spiegel and Jcpenney's and Sears back in the day of catalogs. I have friends who bought up you know, tons of real estate just doing that. And you wouldn't recognize them, you know, outside of the industry, right? So there, you know, you're in New York, it's your six foot tall. You've got an incredibly glamorous career. You're starting to do the Sports Illustrated cover. What was your dating life like. If I dated? You know, I was young, I was pretty damaged.

I, I didn't really date much. I'm certainly not going to mention names. But but, I, I was more I was someone who went from relationship to relationship. I didn't do a lot of dating in my 20s, but, you know, the men and the men were around when I. When my parents dropped me off in New York with my, you know, K-Mart suitcase. in the fall of, 86. The agency sent me down to the model apartment and was greeted by my roommate.

She was, I think, from Colorado. She was 15 years old, and she was holding a gin and tonic, and she said, oh, my boyfriend's going to take us out tonight, and it's going to take us to a club. It was Nell's at the time and great club. And he and, he showed up. He was 40 years old. And then we got into the club and, and his friends were circling me, and they were all they were all easily late 30s, early 40s. And I was just very confused. But then, you know, you're young, so you go, you just immediately normalize.

Oh, well, this is just the way it is. This is how it is. And I roll with it. You know, I just so thrilled to be there. I loved New York so much. So when did you first meet Donald Trump? When did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? First time I met Donald Trump was at a taping of Saturday Night Live. I used to hang out there. I was friends with some of the the cast, and I'd go to tapings. It's a really fun thing to do on a Saturday night in New York. And, and he was there with Marla, and that was the first time I met him. And did you have any connection with him?

Yeah. It I was uncomfortable with. Go on. He was, you know, extremely flirtatious. He was looking straight ahead and watching the show, and he sort of turned his head and leaned over and was just, you know, raising his eyebrows and doing things like that. Okay. And then how did you meet Jeffrey Epstein? I met Jeffrey when my agent, which at this point was next, and it was Faith Kates, the owner, she was very good friends with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump.

And she introduced, the introduction came to her when she took a group of us to a dinner. on the Upper East Side in a restaurant, and Jeffrey was there, and it was during the Clinton Gore election. So, someone prompted probably Jeffrey as my guest, but I don't remember. Someone prompted a conversation about the election, and I got very excited because, I mean, how often are you at a model dinner. and someone's bringing up something substantive to talk about? And I've always been a bit of a political junkie.

So, yeah, Jeffrey, you know, looked at me and he didn't condescend, and he had a very straightforward conversation with me about the campaign. And I remember appreciating that because it was very rare. that men in those circles would ever have a conversation with me. about a substantive topic without mansplaining or condescending. And I think that's why I got a little interested. And so what was it like to date him?

He wasn't really dating, you know. It was very odd. I basically it was a period of maybe 4 to 5 months. He didn't like to go. He didn't like to go to restaurants. He said he didn't like humanity. He didn't like I used to joke I was going to make him. go on a subway ride some day to force him to be amongst the peasants, you know? He liked his very insular, you know, giant brownstone and his fancy office and the house in Palm Beach. And then he would be transported, to and fro in.

airplanes and and limousines and things like that. So the times that we got together, really revolved around, meeting at the brownstone. and taking walks around the neighborhood, mostly, having tea in the room that the butler served. You know, Jeffrey had this obsession with that Zabar's. bread, with all the yummy walnuts and raisins in it.

I would meet there in the afternoon, we'd have tea, the butler would come in. It was actually like a tray, a little, like central casting for a butler. The artifice was kind of funny in his place. It was like a little boy with too much money, like acting out or being performatively rich. It was kind of funny, but, Yeah. So the the tray would come in, and there was he. Jeffrey had a thing about that. Zabar's bread, which is that yummy raisin e walnut bread. And he he seemed to think it was important to let me know that, you know,

you had it Fedex, when he would travel because because it. was so important to him, which is like, you know, the most obnoxious, like, self-indulgent thing, but, like, I think he thought it was impressive. You know, that he has bread, his favorite bread, flown to where ever is. I remember that story about that. So that's what he would do. We would have tea. We'd we'd, I spent the night there a couple of times. We took walks in the neighborhood.

And that's it. We didn't go to restaurants. We didn't. You know, the second time I met him after the dinner was, the Christmas party. in the Plaza Hotel in the presidential suite. or one of the big suites there that Donald threw. And there were a lot of celebrities, and, you know, athletes and people like that. And Jeffrey was there, and that's where we really connected. And I gave him my phone number. That was the second meeting. So you would be a trophy girlfriend for someone like him?

I guess so, yeah. I mean, but he wasn't parading me around in public, you know? So, perhaps I served another purpose. You know, to be honest with you, also. And it's. This is hard for people to hear, but, you know, he genuinely liked me, and we generally genuinely had good conversations. He was insane and a creep. And you know, once the data points lined up, I told him he was extremely unwell and to stay away from me. But,

you know, he. we we had some enjoyable conversations. and I had been practicing yoga at that point for many, many years. Yoga, meditation. I started on my 19th birthday and it's still a part of my life. I owned a studio here in Los Angeles for 25 years. And Jeffrey was very interested in it. And one time, one of the studios where I practice regularly called me. and begged me to teach a class because they were short. and they said, like, you know, this inside and out and we don't have anyone else. And I said, of course, you know, and he actually came to the class and did it,

when I taught. And that was the only time. Was it flexible? Not really. It was not very flexible. Okay. And I'm going to ask you something, which is it's a slightly odd question. to ask you, but it's sort of relevant in a way, because one of the things that Glenn Maxwell talks about him after. she dated him was that he had this insatiable sexual appetite. Is that something that you observed? No, ma'am. No. It was we didn't have a very sexual relationship.

I mean, yeah, it's, you know, and and looking back and knowing now what we know about him, I was probably too old. Maybe, I don't know. So. So tell us about the time that he takes you to visit Donald Trump. You're walking down Fifth Avenue and he looks up at Trump Tower. Yeah. So we went on one of our walks and we're heading down fifth. And he was talking about he always talked about Donald. That was I don't I can't name another friend that he ever mentioned.

He spoke about him. regularly when we had contact pretty pretty consistently. And so. he was sort of ever present in those conversations and in those months, and so we took a walk down fifth and he mentioned, oh, you know, Donald might see so much or he's such a fan or, I don't know, whatever. Let's stop by and see him. And that was. kind of a normal thing to me because I knew. at that point how close they were, what good friends they were.

That was the first time I'm hearing, you know, about the degree of their connection, where it's, normal or comfortable to just stop by his office another day. So I said, all right, okay, let's stop by. And Donald came out of his office right outside of. in the sort of the waiting area and started groping me while. the two of them continued having a casual conversation. and Donald had an assistant who was sort of walked back and forth.

a couple times, and they did introduce me to her at one point. I will never remember her name. But Donald is groping you in front of Jeffrey as we are continuing to talk. Yes, yes, this is just moving. his hands sort of up and down my body. And like, smiling at him and Jeffrey smiling back. And I don't remember specific. It was, I think the conversation oriented around me and my career, you know, is on fire, blah, blah. Yeah. And what was Jeffrey doing at this time?

He was engaging in the conversation and just looking at Donald. He didn't. I didn't read any kind of reaction when it was happening. Was that because that feels very odd for a man to stand. with his girlfriend talking to another man who is groping his girlfriend? And you've said that he was groping your breasts. He had his hands all over your buttocks. He was just wildly inappropriate with you. And and,

entitled. I don't know, Jeffrey. I don't think either of us thought. I didn't think of him as my boyfriend, and vice versa. I mean, we were dating, we had, I would say for a period of four months, almost daily contact. Most of it was the telephone. And so, yeah, the incident is completely insane, but but from the the boyfriend point of view, I that's I don't think. it brought up any feelings of jealousy.

I think there he expressed rage to me right afterwards. I wanted to talk to you about that. What did you do in the moment when this was going on? When Donald Trump was allegedly groping you? What did. What did you do? I froze, I just froze, and I was just confused because. They were continuing to talk. So, as if nothing's happening. And so, you know, everything Donald does is hidden and it's brazenness.

You just do it right out there and everyone goes, well, that can't be happening. because it's totally wrong, and he's doing right in front of everyone. So therefore it can't be happening. I mean, that's what went through my head at that point. It was just utter confusion. And for me to be that frozen when I had a rep for really. being a bit of a street fighter and really pushing back in and studios. when photographers are inappropriate. And I mean, I was reprimanded for it by my agencies. So difficult,

you know, you don't just sleep with them, but at least make them think you're going to sleep with them. And, you know, all this game playing that had to go on for these tiny egos and, so, you know, I and I was really combative. And so for me to freeze, you know, how masterful. he is in a way to pull that off. Well, and in your remark about his brazenness and it happening in. plain sight and people not acknowledging it.

is, I think, really valid one. So what happened after you left the building. or after after you left Donald Trump? I do we we got into the elevator and I picked up I looked at Jeffrey, he would make eye contact with me, and he had a really enraged look on his face. He was seething. His whole energy was different. And then by the time I get out on the street, I got out on Fifth Avenue. He just turned to start yelling at me and said, why did you let him do that? He just he just kept repeating it. Why would you let him do that?

And he really, you know, there was a, there was an edge. to it that was also very shaming, and belittling. And I remember standing there thinking like I was starting. to come back into my body and I thought, why did I? I was so confused, you know? And then I went home and we went separate ways. And it wasn't long after that that I stopped seeing him. And when you think about the incident, did you think that he had. set it up with Donald Trump?

Was it was he trying to gaslight you outside? Did he genuinely not understand why you hadn't pushed Trump away? Or do you think that that he had set the whole thing up? I think he was confused. I think he thought because I told him all these stories about guys I had, you know, beaten up in the streets in Paris. and maced and getting in trouble with my agencies for not pretending. I'm going to sleep with disgusting Vogue photographers. And, and I think somehow he thought he has like,

oh, this one, you know, this ornament is actually one that fights. back, you know, let's let's put it to let's test, let's test my let's test. this right here and have some fun. And so when you split up with him. or when you stopped seeing him, how did you tell him. It was a phone call? And, I, you know, I said, look, you are extremely unwell.

You need psychiatric help. And, you know, again, I'm like, basically a teenager. emotionally, intellectually, in a lot of ways. And, but, you know, if I could figure that out. about him after a couple of months, all these people that have for years have surrounded themselves. and gone to dinners, their dinners, they're whether they're women or men, whether they were abusing underage girls or not, I just, I that's where I get very confused. I'm like, I'm this kid right out of, you know, like I said, rural PA.

And it took me a few months to say, oh, yeah, like, you are extremely unwell. Get away from me. Don't come near me again. I think there are a lot more people who could have done that. I don't understand why that didn't happen. And what was his reaction when you did that? Well, this is what's interesting. And it's hard for people to grasp, but he actually choked up a little bit. He was upset and said, oh, okay. All right, all right. And he just he really it was so odd. It was so it was just so odd because it wasn't really a relationship.

And he was so extremely off in so many ways. Clearly very compartmentalized. What were some of the other ways that he seemed off to you in terms of. I take the incident, that you allege happened at Trump Tower, what were all the things that made you realize he was a bit off? You know, there are more details of things that happened that I. I'm not comfortable sharing.

That would solidify this. So can you give us a clue as to what kind of things. He like to intimidate? He like to send out kind of subtle messages. and threats to sort of signal. rather than be direct. So he was there was just something very,

very dark and twisted, and I couldn't see it all. I couldn't understand at all. There were people who warned me I was I was on a trip. I was shooting, a catalog in Saint Barts with some other supermodels and, one of the very well-known. models I was with where she said, you're dating Jeffrey, right? And I said, yeah, you know, he's really smart, interesting, and she kept saying, just be careful. And I remember that. I remember that very clearly where we were sitting. I remember that conversation.

and that, you know, that echoed then throughout the couple of months. that I was seeing him. That's another thing that would just pop up every time. there was a new data point that was very, very strange. And didn't he at one point tell you that he had a video of. you getting changed at his house? Yeah. So I only slept over in the house a couple times, but the one. I think it was a day after I did the one time, first time. he said to me,

You know, I have video of you undressed, you know, naked in the bedroom, and it's one of my prized. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. Or something really creepy like that. Yeah. So that was close to the end. And was that one of the things that made you feel a it's. a very unusual thing to do to someone. And also sort of signaling that I have control over you. or I can do something with this video.

Perhaps that may have been his intention. He liked to share. He liked to send out little signals and let out, eke out. little drops of what was really, I think, going on. And then he wouldn't expand upon it. So it was just enough for you to go kind of stop and think, well, wait, wait, what? What did you just say? You know, today, obviously I look at the woman I am. today as a, you know, a fully formed, hopefully somewhat. more actualized person would look and say, what did you what did you say to me?

Like what? What are you signaling right now? You know, he's older. He has a bunch of power. I was pretty underdeveloped. And so I would hear it and it would, you know, it. it would stick out as odd, but it was very hazy as to the meaning. So you split up. You eventually stopped modeling. You moved to L.A.. What did you think when you heard he'd been arrested?

So I wasn't surprised. I will say that I over the years, once I, you know, transitioned into my second career. and moved to Los Angeles, and I opened my studio and, I was involved in another phase of life. I would still see articles coming out on him. And I think the big one that I noticed was in Vanity. Fair was about him on a 747 going to South Africa. I believe, and I read it and I just remember my heart kind of dropping.

I was like, there's something so much bigger and deeper to this guy. Out of all the men I've dated, even. or even been friends with high level politicians or folks with power. There was something very dark. and also very opaque about him, and I remember seeing that thought. I thought, this story isn't over. There's just so much to this. And it's the story isn't over. I can't remember the name of the article, but I think it was something like. the fantastic Mr.

Obscenely Mysterious Mr. Epstein. So after he died in prison in 2019, and the news of the extent to which, he'd had this network of young girls, and then with the sentencing and the trial. of Ghislaine Maxwell the following year, or 2022, she sentenced, we you surprised by the extent of it? No. Did it, did it feel did it feel somehow.

validating for you that you had always thought there was something odd? And then here it was. Yeah, I. guess it validated my instincts, but I think, I mean, you know, that doesn't have a ton of value to me. The horror of what those women endured as. girls was really upsetting. I think also, you know, MeToo happened. And it's not just me. It's it's a lot of women. When we do happen, we suddenly started.

normalizing so many things that have happened to us. You know, de normalizing I, I work and, and that's I also, I think what. prompted me to revisit a lot of this and start connecting more dots. And I remember going to my storage unit and pulling out all of my boxes. of, like, magazine covers and tear sheets and everything going through them and. and lining them up, to digitize them in my living room and looking. And I was like, you know, okay, that guy, that photographer, that shoot, he exposed himself to me.

Okay. That shoot, he got my number. Wouldn't stop harassing me. That shoot, he kept coming, you know, it's just, there's just so many data points from those years. And they sort of blended with with a lot of the, Jeffrey Donald memories in my mind. And then I started sorting through them more, I'd say. when when Donald ran in 2016.

And he sent you a postcard after the event where he had groped you at. Trump Tower, right? He did. He did. It's, the front of the postcard. It's it's a postcard of of Maria Lago. That's like. It's just so funny. Like, know your audience, dude. Like, that is such a turn off. But anyway, so it's a postcard of Maryland and then on the other side. and there's very, I mean, iconic. handwriting. Is Stacey your home away from home love, Donald.

And you didn't. I was interested that you kept it. I thought props for keeping it, because I think I would have been tempted. to rip it up. Yeah, I was actually surprised when I found it. I found that during the Me Too, this period that I talked about. when I was getting stuff out of storage and there was news about Jeffrey, there was news about me. too, and Harvey Weinstein, and it was all sort of swimming around. And I was trying to sort through. because I all, you know, I've written about it for myself. And, so I open up a box and it was in there.

I don't remember putting it away. I don't remember, but, you know, I'm glad I'm glad I hung on to it. Yeah, well, it turns out to be sort of evidence of assault, doesn't it? And when you look back. on your modeling career now, if you were talking to a young woman. who wanted to go into modeling, what would you. what advice would you give her? I mean, people reach out to me all the time and I say, I'm, I'm, I want advisor and talk about this because there's no point that I wouldn't do it. Listen, there's no business model anymore, you know?

So, like, there was a reason for us. It got me out of rural Pennsylvania when I was where I was looking at. piles of student loans for college, and, And I did like my existence there, to be honest with you. I mean, I, I when I was 12 years old, I saw the KKK burning across. and all of that, those aspects of, of rural Pennsylvania. really, really affected me deeply. And I did not like being there. That's another reason that that was why, you know, it worked perfectly to get to New York. That was the impetus to get to New York.

It wasn't just to become famous and make money, it was to to get. out of a place where I was not happy, that wasn't aligned with my values. And so, Well, and also, it's a great career to earn a lot of money quickly. If you're successful, which you were. I was I was lucky. I did really well. I had my little niece, was able to set myself up and buy a home. You know how many people can do that now? But but like I said, there's no business model.

I mean, I could be. Yes, I did some high level stuff, and I did Sports Illustrated. I got some contracts and things like that. And I had a nice, lucrative career. I was on the cover of a lot of catalogs. or, sorry, a lot of calendars, and there a lot of posters and I, you know, I was. I was sort of I'm in the Hall of Fame and I was in the Hall of Fame shoot. and everything. And but it was a record number of appearances, I believe, at the time. Kathy Ireland and I both had that. So yes. Yeah. So, so I mean, I was very known and I was hosting Access Hollywood and hosting. MTV and doing a lot of television work and things like that.

I mean, I was, you know, I was I had a good career. But but, you know, like I said, there were there were dozens and dozens, hundreds of models who. you would never recognize, who were working every single day, putting money in the bank, buying up real estate. You know, all of us setting ourselves up to go back to college. or to start a business or I mean, how many people get to front load. their maximum earnings in their lifetime in their 20s? It's like the only industry I've ever heard of right? So, you know, and then you fade. Out from sports fan guys, right?

I mean, modeling or sports for guys. Yeah. Right. Right. So, and so, you know, it was a it was it was a great opportunity. But as you know, in a lot of the essays I've written about this, you. you had that devil on the shoulder, right? The devil on the angels. So, you know, the devil would be like, okay, you're around some of the biggest sleazebag, you know, what are you doing here? And then, you know, the other shoulder is you're working on. and a creative industry at a creative peak in New York City. I mean, it was I'd go out, I'd see Basquiat, I'd see Warhol, I'd see Haring.

I was working with the greatest hair and makeup artists and photographers. in the world, you know, being photographed. by Richard Avedon and, and, Scapa Flow and all these people. So it was an incredibly alive, vibrant, compelling world, especially for me, coming from rural Pennsylvania. with a sort of, maybe an innate artistic and intellectual curiosity. And it was a perfect world for me. So did anything ever get did everything ever get bad enough for me.

to want to give it up? No, but I was navigating so much, especially for a very young person. Well, it sounds like you managed to navigate it pretty well. When you heard the news. last week that Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime. who was sentenced to 20 years in 2020 due for sex trafficking, that she was being moved jails from a federal jail in Florida.

to what's known as a camp, a minimal security prison in Texas. What did you think? I cannot believe again how brazen. to do this backroom deal with a trafficker, a child sex trafficker, and then, in addition, not have a single conversation nor acknowledge. any of her victims. It's heinous. It speaks volumes of this administration and what they stand for.

Right. And of course, we don't know that they've done a backroom deal, but we should say that obviously, the move of jails came after Todd. Blanch, Donald Trump's former personal lawyer. Now, number two, the Justice Department went down and spent a day. and a half with Ghislaine Maxwell interviewing her. So it's hard not to put two and two together and conclude. that she's moved as a result of that conversation. Yeah.

Are you in touch with any of the other victims? Yes, I know there are women who have interacted with them, who haven't come forward. They haven't come forward as far as the young women. or the women who were trafficked as young women and girls by him. I've never met any of them. But my heart breaks and I was really quite leveled when I, you know, oh, when I heard about Virginia. Had to go for a walk. Yeah. Virginia Giuffre, who is, of course, was one of the victims.

who gave evidence very movingly, a Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. Yeah. And was poached from Mar a Lago, where she was working. in the locker room at 16 to go and be Jeffrey's personal masseuse. By Glenn Maxwell. Yeah. Well, Stacey, thank you very much for for talking to us. I think, you know, I just want to reiterate to you, and I'm. You probably know this, that I was polygraph, by a very, leading, renowned examiner,

past it, that postcard. I know CNN verified its origins. The signature is obvious. And, you know, I appreciated Michael Wolf, sharing that. he had confirmed with Jeffrey about what the two of them did to me and his podcast. It did Jeffrey tell Michael Wolf that they've done it. as a premeditated sort of joke between them? Not sure, actually. I'd have to revisit.

I couldn't listen to it more than once, to be honest with you, but, I don't know. You'd have to ask Michael that. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much for joining us. And, what an extraordinary experience. And then to have it revisited in such, such a scaled way so much later on in your life. when you probably had forgotten almost all of all about it. Yeah. It's it's mind blowing. I've said to people that.

when I first started talking to reporters about this in 2016, and I was off the record, but I spoke to a lot of reporters, I. when I tell the stories out loud, I almost don't believe myself. It's so true, the stranger than fiction, in a weird way. Or I hear myself and I think, wow, would that be hard to believe. It's all true. I've been polygraph to 100%, but, you know, my life span, as well as these other victims, I'm sure it's,

truth is stranger than fiction. So it's. I don't know if I'll ever fully be able to to digest or process it, you know. Well, thank you for coming on and talking to us about it. And it does shed light on the nature of Jeffrey Epstein. and Donald Trump's friendship. We know they were very close, especially during this sort of peak model era of the 90s. And your story puts it in some perspective for us, side perspective for you, but helpful, I think, to understand. the drama about it now.

Yeah. Thank you. I think it's really important. It's driven me nuts that people, for years have been saying, oh, come on, just because they were in photographs. together doesn't mean when I know the truth. And a whole bunch of us know the truth. And, so the. more, it's healing to to have the truth come out, right? I mean, that's where the alchemy comes, you know, of healing. Why do you think more people haven't spoken out? I mean. Look at what women and or when they come forward. Blasey Ford had to move out of her house, sell it.

Jean Carroll I restored to. Yes. Brett Kavanaugh. Yes. I mean, women take on these men and they get shredded. Their lawyers go after them. I mean, I've seen some of the things written about me. And and so that's just there. Okay. So you, you know, you just block that out, but then, you know, I know women who have received death threats, women have children. A lot of these models now raising children.

Also, a lot of these victims that I know haven't come forward. and I don't want to bring that into their kids lives. That's why I didn't right away. That's why I was off the record, you know? So I think first and foremost is you want, you know, you. when you especially when you've come from that kind of a, insanity and darkness. once you're having kids and you're a parent, you, you know, you really long for just the calm, normal stability. And you want to you want to provide that for your kids. and not have that part impacting their lives. And I think that's another reason why a lot don't come forward.

Well, I think we would all like some calm stability, And. Look like it's on the cards. And it can't wait for boring times. We can't wait for boring times. Stacey, thank you very much for joining you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. So clear. Glide. You are an Australian model. You're in your early 20s, you moved to New York. and you are introduced to Jeffrey Epstein. What was he like? What was your first impression?

Tell us about hanging out with him. Yeah. So I'd been a teenage model in Paris. I'd spent years at the salon couture house, and then, you know, you're traveling in this gypsy caravan. Milan, Paris, Rome, you know, in London. And I fell in love with New York. And that energy at that time that you could bottle, you know, and, the club scene and the creativity. So by the time I met Jeffrey, I would have been, but probably about 22. of the really important thing, Joanna's. And it's probably what's made me hesitate to talk about, knowing Jeffrey for so long. The really important thing is, as a lived experience, it's you're looking forward.

So, you know, looking backwards, seeing the mugshot, being world. famous is a Darth Vader villain is what people's understanding of Jeffrey now is. At that time, my lived experience was he was a, high society A-lister, a sort of an enigmatic Great Gatsby. figure with these on paper, ludicrously over the top, a creature more like having a, you know, a mansion that had an entire city block and,

a vaguely nebulous, wealthy, trust, you know, very, very much a self-made man. He was on boards. He was at, events. He was lauded. And so by the time I met him, there was, on paper, nothing to fear. I had actually heard about him before I met him. Friend of mine, a good friend, a fellow Australian model who I adored. had met him on the At on the traps and models at that time.

Was on the traps. Woman just slapped me. Well, you know, parties and Vanity Fair parties, models are essentially, even though you're very young and in many cases unsophisticated, you're aping, a high fashion ideal. We have the keys to the city in London, Rome, Milan, Paris. You have your instantly connected with a network of, of, let's say. the, the, the parties and the people that make the city tick. And you're a Ford model at this point, which is about as good as it gets.

Now take us back to your Australian friend. Introduces you to Jeffrey Epstein. She had a sense that he was someone too tough for her to handle, she said. I kind of got to know him a bit, and I realized. he's a bit too much of a player for me to really seriously. consider him as a boyfriend. But she knew I sort of liked that very, sort of smart, super verbal, funny New York, high speed kind of personality.

And so she said, I was thinking it could be someone. interesting for you to meet, and this was not done. I is interested in any sleazy way at all. It was more, oh, you know, out of all the men out there in New York, you should really meet him. And I know that I can't take on that level of player. Now. The context was Playboy, and at that point. it was way more James Bond than Darth Vader. It was he was somebody that was known as, many a girl on his arm, lots of girlfriends.

He eventually, when I met him, I realized he had that sort of smarmy. self-satisfaction of, like, women would love to take me down and they never will. You know? And when I actually met him. What do you mean? Women would like to take him down, but they never will. I think, you know, when someone's very wealthy, they're on their guard. And they like to use the fact that, on paper, they're an object of desire for women that want to be with a wealthy man. Okay. So he knew. That he knew that. Offending people off. Well, I think he enjoyed it. I think he enjoyed it.

And I guess part of our dynamic when I met him, I actually and. it's sort of hard to say because I never, ever, ever want to be an apologist. to someone that caused so much destruction and, destroyed so many lives. But if I'm being really honest, my lived experience was we became friendly. And that's the actual truth. It's like a little it's a whole kaleidoscope. It's a very complex situation. And my little, you know, shot of glass in the, in the kaleidoscope that I'm just contributing to.

The picture is initially when I met him, he what he did have a charm and I did. We sought out each other's company and we did hang out in a nonsexual way. And you spent. How long was he a friend of yours? Oh, for. Years, you know, for years, especially in that early period where we was, we were, you know, he'd be someone I'd call. He was he would call back or he would call me. At that time, we had answering machines. And, you know, God knows where those little cassettes are, you know. But,

so it was like, probably. there was a two and a half, three year period where it was at its apex. And you met Donald Trump through him, right? Yes. And as a precursor to the Donald Trump encounter, I have to say, by that time I'd also sort of realized he's a black diamond run of a man. Way to, much for me to handle. I'm a romantic, so I knew there's no way that I'm going.

to just be, a part of a harem, you know? So. And, and that was considered. attractive at the time, in a post MeToo world, everyone's like, oh, gross. But at that time, it just made you a player and it was a value in people. It was it was shiny, you know, and at that point, also people behaving outrageously. It was something that was I sought out and I it was part of the fashion world. And it was part of the 80s and the 90s, wasn't it? I mean, Wall Street was on at the movies. This was about money.

It was about glitz. It was about glamor. And you were living in that in your day job because you were dressing up as that. And then in the evenings you were actually living it. Exactly. And also when you're modeling, when you're doing couture, this whole idea that this, a Parisian designer, like you. said, Lauren, he's basically liberating women. from stifling bourgeois convention by this highly eroticized sexual glamor. So in my hilariously undercooked teenage,

youthful, booksmart life completely naive way, I thought I got the players and the and the and the world. And I was, like, navigating. But even then, I thought, yeah, there's no way. I can take on a Jeffrey Epstein, you know, in terms of being. auditioning him or him auditioning me for partner material. But we instantly slipped into a friendly catch up, mode. And he was someone who was always super busy. He didn't really do, like, four hour lunches in a cafe. It'd be like, hey, I'm going to the airport. Why don't you come to come hang out? And then I'll just.

The car can take you back wherever you want to go. He was always on the run, on the run, on the run. And then one day, he'd spoken, about, Donald Trump as someone that, you know, he kind of whether. he was kind of a bit self-satisfied about that friendship, I think, because at that point, Donald Trump was, you know, larger than life, you know, almost like cartoon like character in the in the New York. landscape. And, he mentioned, I had this white rep. Rep. Rep. Overdress.

And he said, oh, my God, you look just like a nurse. And that'd be really fun. if we got, this other mutual friend that had introduced us. Why don't we both go over to Donald's and, you both look like nurses, and I'll just knock on the door and. And we'll go to Trump Tower and it'll be hilarious. And it kind of, you know, looking back, obviously, it's like there's something kind of mortifying. about that story, about me putting myself in my in that Benny Hill position, but. I'm being like sort of on Jeffrey's arm going to Donald Trump's. It's completely surreal. I mean, it's really mental.

But at the time, it just felt like a bit of fun. And obviously now I look back and go, okay, it's a very odd story, and especially when, it blew up into this global horror show. So take us back to so you're sauntering over town, across. town from Jeffrey's house on East 71st Street to was this Trump Tower. You go to meet Donald Trump? Yeah. We, we went to Trump Tower and we get ushered up. And so I suppose it was a sense of anticipation.

And I wasn't that invested in Donald Trump. But anyone that lived in New York at that time knew he was an outsize figure. He was like a. Macy's Day Parade float of a man, you know, and then, you know, so then. Right. And and I don't know, you know, I'm pretty sure that the. I remember the doors being sort of having all this kind of embedded. Byzantine detail like, you know, like this Persian prince that we're going to see on the other side. And then, when the doors sort of swung open, the two things that really hit you.

One is the outrageous skyline. I mean, it's just. Yeah, you know, that it's just the embodiment. of all aspirational new York design. The view from his window. Unbelievable. I remember that, and I also remember the odd, outrageously opulent, Romanian dictator look of the, I honestly, it was shocking. Like it actually blew my mind. And I'd been in very opulent French spaces, but this was on steroids.

And so I remember blurting out, oh, good thing that we didn't, a good thing I didn't wear silver earrings. You know, I'm just being a smartass. And we came in and he was gracious, and I think he offered us a drink. And Jeffrey was sort of a little bit, you know, you know, the got the cream, like, a little bit, you know, well, you know, unequal. Aren't I great, aren't I fun? And there wasn't anything really seedy or sexual. or weird apart from the, the aspect of us being sort of trophies on display.

And he was really invested in us knowing about. I bought this, I got that I paid the most at the auction. You know, he was really, really invested in, making a good impression, which I found startling. I just could not believe that sort of chasm of need in him. Like, it really, really blew my mind. And what was the relationship like between him and Jeffrey? They seemed warm and friendly, you know, you know, Jeffrey was kind of a bit to you about knowing Donald.

You know, Donald was much more famous than him at that time. You know. So I think he loved kind of accentuating the connection. He probably was showing off Donald to us and us to Donald, you know, and I mean, look, at that time, you know, there was he was a soap opera. So this was part of your New York adventure. It was just an adventure. And, Donald Trump was just another, you know, I'd met I'd done. a show and shaken Diana's hand. It was like, Meet Godzilla. This is just another. You know, this is. Not Princess Diana.

Princess of Wales. was like all these towering figures that you just ended up meeting them. It's very surreal to look back at now. There was no weird, dark, sexual undercurrent. He was gracious, I do remember. Where did he look when? Because this you, your friend, you're both dressed in tiny. little white dresses that Jeffrey things give off a nurse vibe. Is Donald responsive to that? He smiled. He smiled and he laughed. And he obviously thought, this is just Jeffrey like. Because obviously Jeffrey's thinking, I'm literally walking down Fifth Avenue with two nurses.

This is, you know, that he they. he smiled and he laughed, but not in a way that made me uncomfortable at the time. And it's really, really I feel so exposed telling this story in a way. But it is, you know, let's face it, it's, the oddest. thing in the world to be remembering that story, considering the everything. that's swirling around all these you know, seismic events globally now. I mean. So does he invite you in and do you spend time? Do you have a drink? Yes. Yeah.

He was gracious. But I, you know, and I remember he was extremely eager to please in the. sense of this very odd, Gatsby esque need for us to know how much things cost. And I found that a little bit odd and needy and very bizarre. But I there was no there was definitely no, seedy undercurrent. I have to say that. And what was Jeffrey's relationship like with Donald Trump? He spoke about him as somebody that, he I think he felt that he. that was at a time when, Donald Trump was going through some bankruptcy issues,

and he definitely, loved. he kind of was a little boaster about the fact he lent him his plane. And, and I've helped him out a lot. And, you know, definitely the the sense that he was the power center at the time. Definitely. That was how he, spoke of it in those terms. So what was it like actually hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein? Where did you go? You mentioned. that he would go to the airport and say, hop in the car with me so we can catch up. Did you go to his various house? I'd often meet him in his Madison Avenue office.

He, I went to his home on 71st. So when you were hanging out at his house, did you come across Ghislaine Maxwell? I did, and when I met Glenn, it was very odd because at that point. I didn't, understand or know about the backdrop of her position. as, this very high octane figure in British high society. And obviously now I know all about her father. and the, the how connected and how there was this incredibly valuable,

relationship between what she was offering Jeffrey, which was all these. open doors and what he was offering her and supporting her. And there was when I first met her, initially. he was asking you to do this and do that, and she was running off. and doing things and arranging and I just thought she was a, something, some sort of executive assistant. And then she came in and she was really rude to me and cocky and sat on his lap. And so all my signals were jammed, and I, what on earth is going on? And then people would explain, oh, no, no, I mean, no one's ever going. to get to the bottom of Jeffrey Glenn like she's semi girlfriend, semi.

right hand man semi this semi that like and I realized oh it's just extremely. bizarre and and unknowable. And when I actually went to Jeffrey's Zorro Ranch. I was going to LA to, do a show at the Playboy Mansion. And it was the one night where it was actually, an Aids benefit, and it was with Suzanne Bosch, who was a friend in a very, very iconic nightclub promoter. still doing the pony somewhere in a club today as we speak.

And she took over with, you know, us and a retinue of drag queens. The Playboy Mansion. And I told Jeffrey about it, and he thought it was hilarious. And he said, oh, you have to come and visit my ranch. And I remember him saying, it's bigger than Manhattan. It's bigger than Manhattan. I said, well, then I guess I better see it. And I took, my girlfriend Danya, who was also modeling in the show, and we went on a road trip, and I remember. Anita, which was where? New Mexico? Yes. Yes. And it was, at that time, he hadn't built the main structure,

and I took a lot of footage. And there was a very bizarre, mannequin. that was there, and it was dressed in a Zorro costume that George. Hamilton, a friend of Jeffrey's, had given him from the movie Gay blade. Because I said, what's the Zorro costume? And I've actually got video where I think I'm, like, talking to him. in the distance, my friends chatting about to her mom saying, yeah, we've we've met this, friend of Claire's, this crazy guy Jeffrey. I mean, he was almost like Mr. Howell and Gilligan's Island to us. You know, it was just this sort of.

roughly sketched New York billionaire, you know, like, almost like a cigar. Like it was. He wasn't like that. But that's what he kind of seemed to us. And we still wonder why. he was offering these things with very little in return. except friendship, because I prided myself. And this was sort of my youthful arrogance on being the girl at the poker game. that can handle hanging with the big boys, but not getting burnt. And there was a little bit of shame.

when the whole story exploded, a little bit of survivor guilt. It was kind of a cocktail of shock, dismay, relief and guilt, and it kind of paralyzed me a lot. But at that time, I didn't think I had anything to fear. I just thought it was this. It was exciting. And did you sleep with him? No, I didn't, I didn't, but he did do the pounce. I was we went down to Palm Beach once on his plane, and I thought it was very exciting going on a private plane. And when I got on the plane.

It's funny because I'm a I'm a total fantasist. And so I always kind of visually project things. So when I think Private Plane, I always think there's a chic in the corner. He's holding a falcon, there's a woman in a Pan Am outfit. and there's a tinkling fountain, and she's kind of carrying trays of champagne. It was a little bit more shabby than that. It was a bit more, it's like a. it's like an office, you know, and, you know, so it felt a little bit more shabby, a little bit more grubby. I mean, it was still a private plane and, and obviously that was impressive.

And it had enough of a novelty to me, but it wasn't, it, it felt more like a mid-level executive's office in the sky. than a, rock star. LED Zeppelin fantasy. Yeah. And, when, and it came out of nowhere. So when he did the pounds, it was genuinely shocking. because it was we were in the middle. of a conversational beat, and it was a pleasant, happy time. And, you know, he was being gracious. and it was probably a fruit platter and there would have been a server.

And but I do remember that, it was just us. I couldn't handle it. He, he actually, he got that sort of gimlet stare. You know, I think most women are familiar with when the, light goes out of the eyes. and that kind of lustful laser beam focus, most women have probably experienced where you realize if it's unwelcome. and unwanted, it you start to feel queasy and scared. and worried about how you could handle it. And I had a dress with, a wrap dress that he was able to put his hand between.

my legs at the knee and, and then start to kind of get rough, you know, get rough and put his hand on my breast. and put his his hand, on my leg and, like, creeping up to my underwear. And I was, I was I kind of teared up and I was like, Jeffrey, why are you doing this? I thought we were friends. Like, you know, I don't want to be. And I think I said, I, you know, I really don't want to do the whole. Jeffrey Epstein roadkill thing, you know, and and he kind of stopped. And then he dropped it, like, completely. It wasn't like a second or third or fourth attempt.

He almost was like shoulder shrugging about it. And he dropped it and it shocked me to my core, which sounds very silly, naive. But I did not see it coming. With the other people on the. Plane. I it's interesting you asked me that because they would have been starved, but I definitely don't remember anyone looking on all staring, which would have actually been horrific in a way that that would be just. another person dehumanizing you by not even reacting. I don't remember that element, so they must have gone. to the front of the plane. There was always, you know, staff, someone serving drinks and obviously,

you know, but I remember the roughness of the physical. It was it really shocked me. Like it really shocked me. And so you'd been friendly with him up until this. We were. Mates. That's how I just got. Now, obviously this sounds ludicrously naive now, but I just thought I was the, you know, the girl that was. that was it was enough for us to just have banter and talk. And what happened after that? Because you still had some of the journey, presumably. I had a very heightened sense of, what happens?

I'm a bit of a I've got a people pleaser personality. So when something happens that confronts me, I bury it and fake it immediately. So I immediately went back. I was I was shaken, but I, buried it and tried to act like nothing was happening to make it all okay. That's how I make things. Okay. Especially at that time. So it made it, of course, appallingly easy for him. to not even care about, you know, damaging the friendship. But I do remember being violently recoiling and being upset.

and verbalizing, you know, and now I realize, you know, that. there's always kind of an element of danger to planes and boats, obviously, because you're isolated and you're away from, And do you think he had planned it or do you think it was just. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it was premeditated. And and I do remember when we went to Palm Beach, I do remember that. he went and got a massage and I thought, that's all like a, you know, why? You know, surely that's something you can put off to another time.

You don't have a guest. So now I realize that, that was obviously his, you know, he would you would have had on tap relief. at all times, which is obviously creepy and horrific. And but you did you see who was massaging him? No, no, I didn't, but, he just said, look, I'm going to go and have a massage, make use of I am because, you know, he was he. I picked up on his casual normalization. without realizing, oh my God, what is really happening?

You know, and that's and I, you know, that's the God's honest truth. I just didn't know. And the thing that I now realize is now that. I understand that, I only had one piece of the puzzle at the time. Everybody knew that Jeffrey, had a harem like attitude to women. Everybody forgave him for it. Everybody normalized that. But now, of course, we know that, he wanted something much darker. He wanted girls that were underage, friendless, vulnerable,

from poor backgrounds. That was something I literally had no knowledge of. But when I heard it, I realized how little I really knew about what I was living at that time, because that was all going on at the same time. So he pounces on the plane. You repel him. He doesn't try again. Do you stay friends with him? I, the my memory of it. is that it was downhill to a certain extent. The intimacy, the excitement.

Wasn't there for me, but I actually did. It wasn't the end. I did actually look him up again. When I came back to New York, I. I returned to Australia when I had a baby. I got married and had a baby, and I kind of fell out of that, single bachelorette, living the Carrie Bradshaw life. I actually, my life contained went back to Australia, and I did look him up when I came back. Yeah. So, so obviously to to answer your question, I guess I did forgive him yet. And so you forgive him.

You come back to New York and you call him up. Yeah. And he invited me over to the house, and I had a friend with me, an Australian friend, and she had a very overtly sexy sex. Which kind of sexuality? She was someone who's. very attractive to men and, you know, had the kind of geisha way of, you know, like, you just pretty and and much more, I think pleasing. I was sort of had much more of a, shall we say, fag hag energy. And you were sort of sharp.

I've known you for a long time and you're very funny. You're fast, you're sort of sharp talking. This is probably the least funny subject we've ever had. It's. I know it sound quite sober, but yeah, usually I'm a bit more, upbeat, but, yeah, she, she had that, you know, the skin and the body, conscious clothes, you know, really sexy and, and he. And so when we went over there, I said, yo, I felt like Jeffrey was sort of like the Empire State Building. Another interesting aspect of New York to come and visit. Come and see this.

Come and eat that. Come and meet Jeffrey Epstein. It was it just felt like, another another creature in the New York jungle to meet. And when we went to the house, that was then the time. when I really started to just see the kind of seediness where the murkiness, I thought the biggest problem with Jeffrey was that he was a, you know, a kind of a slightly misogynistic Playboy. And then I guess I had this. weakness and, like, a flaw, my character or the vanity of thinking I can.

pass through this, I can move over these laser beams, and I'm going to be okay. And and of course, I feel kind of a bit of shame about around that. But at the time I, you know, I wasn't there yet. And, we went there and, he kind of pulled her. He said, can I just borrow her for a minute? And he pulled her into the cupboard. and she seemed breathy and giggly and okay with it. But. What do you mean? The cupboard? Well, there was, there was, what I assumed was some. Where were you hang coats. It was a big room. That was kind of. It was almost like you remember in 2001, A Space Odyssey, where the aliens create.

this 18th century room. This is a human room. It's like, this is a rich man's room. So there's a giant globe. But he was always, like, in jeans and a polishes. He was almost like, I've set the stage, this Gatsby esque stage of this wealthy man. But he was, you know, it was almost like you. expecting to see somebody come in in a velour robe and slippers and a pipe. You know, it was like a very gentlemen's club. But then he would. He was very contemporary New York. But she was he he dragged her behind the door and,

and they disappeared. And she said he was just whispering all these filthy things. And that's when I thought, oh my God. Like, that's appalling. Like it's, it's it's I was like, are you okay? I'm so sorry. I felt really bad that I'd put her in that position. And she was like, that's okay, it's okay. But you know, she had a you know, I'd obviously internalized that it was okay. And that's when I just didn't contact him again after that, I just felt that it was an appalling way to, you know, and then I've kind of sunken and slipped and yeah, I don't want to go back. And then when you.

Well, when did you first begin to hear the news that he was arrested? I was in some ways horrified, in other ways not surprised. I remembered things, I got flashback memories. I remember him once talking about how he had, nicknames for women. that were akin to hamburgers at McDonald's. Like what? So you'd get the Big Mac, you get the Junior Burger, you know? So in other words, kind of their status and their appeal and their looks.

and whether they're, you know, just pretty or pretty and smart or pretty and smart and funny, like, you know, basically categorizing women and all those things that I'd buried, and. Women. Junior. Yeah. Junior burgers or Big Macs. He told me about. That telling in. Retrospect and in retrospect. And the thing is, when you let things slide, you sort of go into a delusional state, you know, it's like the it's like the the lead cape at the dentist, you know, it's like this and it just lifts.

And that's when I thought, oh my God. And I felt really paralyzed about telling anyone. I must have told. maybe on one hand, people that I actually knew him because I felt like, it really all that I'd gotten through it with really just a grope. If I'm being honest. And it was also very hard to explain to people at that time. why I would even hang out with the monster. Like, how do I even begin? Where do I start? Well, and he didn't seem like a monster when you were hanging out. Not at all. Not at all. And we had conversations and fun and I was embarrassed.

I was ashamed, and I didn't want to appear to be an apologist. for someone who would hurt these, you know, girls. And I think about someone like Virginia Gopher, who never wavered from his story, and they had this unbelievable arrow, straight bravery. And, you know, I guess, you know, we have to honor what, you know, the the long lasting damage, but also the courage. And I just didn't feel like I had a place in the conversation at all at that time. I was really a shame.

So why did you decide to start talking about it now? I think because now I realize as I, you know, it's the decades with bi, you know, it's startling speed. I realize that, you know, even with an issue as black and white. as the moral, you know, carcass of that whole situation of of Jeffrey's. The damage is done. And what a creep. And what a, predator he was. I'm just. I guess I'm just bringing another another, hopefully a bit of understanding. on what it was like on the other side. Why?

He was loud and known and befriended and, just it's another piece of. It's another shot of glass in the kind of scope kaleidoscope. It's another piece of it's another little piece in the puzzle. As I look back on my life and try to make sense of it all. So Donald Trump had a modeling agency that was Jeffrey Epstein's friend. who ended up committing suicide. Actually, his name was John Luke, but now. Oh, yeah. And he was, just appalling.

There are. horrific stories of girls coming, you know, because the girls were really young, 14, 15, and you're staying. and you're staying with a 45 year old grizzled, douchey. Playboy who's going to put the hardware on you night one. And possibly, or maybe not even rewards you for your services. Really, there are horrific stories, and the thing guests. that I like to think of when I talk about that world. and I build that world in my mind, it's a double helix because.

there's the trap doors is the pitfalls, but there's also the glamor. and the intoxicating creativity, and they're entwined. So a lot of people, they either see the glossy fashion page, which doesn't really capture the grit, or they see a very understandably sober, maybe documentary. on Sex Pistols horribly lit with and everybody's, you know, distraught. But when you actually experience it, it's all intertwined at the same time. And also there's a lot of money. And you kind of getting heart surgeon money at the very start of your life.

And of course, you're getting ripped off left, right and center. Like I remember they they would take out a lot of money for tax initially, I said, but I've never filled out a form, you know, like 18, 17 impossibly naive. But even allowing for. how much money's cascading through everyone's hands apart from your own, you still get plenty. So if you were to go back and talk to your younger. self, would you encourage her to go into modeling? I mean, we had Stacy Williams on the podcast about a month ago, and she said she gets outreach all the time from young women saying, oh,

how can I be a model? How can I be a model? And she says, I'm the wrong person to talk to. I could never encourage someone to go into modeling. What's your feeling? Well, you know, it's funny, I was thinking about that the other day. I did buy an apartment. I bought an apartment in Paris, and I'd always been haunted and. How old were you? I would have probably been 19, 20, right. And age of 20, you were able to buy your own apartment in Paris. And I had, a mortgage. But it was, And I have footage because I have hours and hours of footage.

I have footage of that apartment, and there's just empty vodka bottles. and Marlboro cigarets, and I look back and then couture strewn all over the. and all the. And I was spending so much money on the clothes. because we could buy at ludicrously low prices, these clothes that were being designed. for these high society women, and we were aping them, that was our job, was to bring these, to animate these dresses and get the clients to buy them. And we would sort of tour, you know, Salzburg and Castles. and the south of France.

It was all very rarefied air. But then there was also the cattle calls and the auditioning to get to that point. where they were brutal, like people would talk about you like you went there. and that it's very paradoxical because you're on a pedestal, but you're also being dehumanized in many ways. You're the center of attention. And the shoes, with all these adults plucking you and fluffing you. But really, you're the least powerful person in the room. But it's all about you. It's a very bizarre paradox. So in answer to your question, I've had girls talk to me about it before, and you can see that.

they're very drawn by it. And I would say if they're straight arrow gagging for this, just you've got to have your, you've got to have your financial plan in place. But what 17 year old girl is ready to hear that with, you know, life. wisdom from someone you know, that's 45 plus no one. And what did you think when you heard he had died? I was it felt like the under.

the underbelly of evil has reached up and the claw has struck. It just instantly felt very menacing and sinister to me. And did he feel menacing and sinister when you were hanging out with him? The only glimpse of that was that time with my friend in the cupboard. I thought, oh, this is really off. Before that I thought it was, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio, man, about town level. I got that spectacularly wrong, obviously.

I but it was, it was basically the groping was the beginning of the end. and then the and then him being really sleazy and gross was my friend. But before that, if I, you know, in all honesty, he, you know, there was plenty of charm, fun laughs, you know, it felt like it felt like good company. And that's what was so mortifying to admit. And when you look back on your friendship. with Jeffrey Epstein and how he died,

do you think that he was murdered? What do you think about his. I do, yeah, I think so, I think so, I think it's very possible. I mean, we don't know for sure. I think is there's something very, his blueprint in my mind has been completely overwritten. as as everybody else is by the mug shot that, the Irish, horror of that jail cell. and then all these towels, you know, like the 20 towels.

There's all these. There's all this really, gosh, horrific imagery. And there's a lot of high stakes. I mean, it's kind of there's something there's something very there's something. very scary swirling around this whole story. That's why I kind of stayed in the shadows for so long about it. I think, you know, there's something very menacing, very sinister. There are deaths, there's power plays. There is no way on God's green earth, obviously, that, we've gotten to the bottom of all the players that were involved.

And there's no way that somebody as transactional and is now, we know, manipulative and clever as Jeffrey, wouldn't have used girls as a. way to entrap and ensnare power players, both, you know, politically and well, I mean, it's clear to me that there's many, many, many cataclysmic, profound secrets left to uncover. Would you agree? I mean. Well, I spent no time with him. I oddly spent 25 years in New York, but never came across some.

Never really heard of him. Well, isn't it just not my world? So. And isn't it telling that you and I, we worked together at Marie Claire? Not short, you know, shortly after, probably the last time I saw him. And it never occurred to us to even discuss him. because he wasn't on radar yet, you know, you know. On the radio. And now we can't get him off the radar on the president, can't. get him off his radar. And I think that, Yeah. I cannot tell you, Joanna, how surreal it has been. As you know, this story has become a frenzy, and it's,

number one on everybody's minds, and it's etched in the public consciousness. And I'm sitting there going, I cannot believe. I actually was in a room with these two people. It's it's very pinch me. It's very bizarre. And you're making a documentary about. what it was like being a model in these heady days. Well, the thing is, at the time, it's, there was something that came out, and of course, it looks like a gigantic loaf of bread to people now. But at the time, something called a hi8 digital camera came out, and everybody could not believe the luxury of being able.

to hold in the palm of your hand a video. Whereas before, you know, you needed a gigantic, piece of extremely expensive equipment. So it became a really fun novel thing. And I had this instinct to document everything, and I just somehow. knew that there was just as much story going on backstage as the, hyper, interest of of what was going on on the front stage, on the catwalks. And at that time, it was a very elite world, because as amazing as it is to think, you. know, digitally, the fashion magazines were the only authority.

And they held onto those secrets and those images and the next the new, the now for months and then only fashion people knew what was coming. Now an image is digitally ricocheted around the globe in five seconds. So at that time it was this really contained world. And I suppose it was the a part of me that then later. blossomed into, you know, a journalistic instinct to capture it. And there's a lot of candid footage. And now that I've realized now that a few decades have passed.

and I can make sense of it, I've actually found, all of the people in the footage, the friends that I was still in contact, the friends that the models that I'd lost. contact with. Their stories are extraordinary. That are its origin stories, how they got addicted to the industry, how it scarred this all, how they loved it, how they miss it, how they hate it. And this was before inclusion was a movement. It was exclusion, luxury. You know, elegance is refusal. Luxury is exclusion. Did you. Come across Melania Trump as a model. because she was modeling around the same time she.

Was sort of floating around, and Donald, at that time, Donald Trump was, you know, a kind of a cartoon like figure in the, in the, in the streetscape of New York. But I didn't actually get to know her. She wasn't really ever editorial high fashion. So, you know, but I'm sure I was in the room at some point at the same time. Tina, it's an absolute honor to have you at The Daily. Beast is fun for me to be back. Welcome back to this building. We we still we live in your vision.

You created this site, and that is exactly what I want to get into with you. And it thrives in Roswell. Really does. The thing that I want to talk about is one of the one of the greatest rulers. of the Daily Beast, which was of. a groundbreaking piece of journalism that was produced under your watch. But the reason that I mentioned Fresh Hail your Substack is because you dropped. an incredible set of revelations about Jeffrey Epstein, the man of the moment,

the scandal of the century, a story that you continue to cover. And I want to talk about those. I want to talk about, what must be the most chilling encounter that I have read about. with Jeffrey Epstein, which happens right in this building today we are sitting. Yeah, it was it was a start. And there's just there's so much to get into. This is an amazing opportunity to talk about Epstein, about Trump and about MAGA. I will just say to everybody, subscribe to Fresh Hell.

It is absolutely unmissable. Obviously, subscribe to The Daily Beast as well. But, Tina, thank you for joining me. Back to you and comments. Just to set this up, I'm good to go back in time. 1980s and. 1990s, you were at the center of the New York social scene. You were covering it. You were editing first Vanity Fair and The New Yorker. Was Jeffrey Epstein a name on your radar? You know, he really wasn't much.

I mean, I had met Jeffrey Epstein. It is true, because I used to attend the Clinton Global Initiative every year in September. You know, it happened at the time of the UN, and there was always a big opening night reception. I met at Jeffrey Epstein there because actually, he was one of the first donors to CGI. So he always was there kind of working the room. And I, you know, he's just. he was like this cold eyed financier kind of working the crowd, not anybody. That was kind of particularly memorable to me. I do remember him as being a very, cute cold. There's a common cold about his eyes, but that's that's all I knew.

I never really Sutton and chatted with him much. And whether whispers was, was it whether. There was some men at that time, Jeffrey Epstein, he was just a financial coffee Society guy. Glenn Maxwell was a far. more sort of prominent social figure. I knew her not well, either, but, you know, being a Brit and, you know, my husband had exposed her her father, you know, Robert Maxwell when he was editor of the Sunday Times,

he did this excoriating piece proving her father was a crook. And so I sort of, you know, I didn't therefore, eagerly come up with with Glenn Maxwell because I'm sure that, certainly know that Harry was a kind of, you know, noir to to that family. But, you know, she was a lively sort of girl about town. woman who you saw a book parties and the tree functions, and you know, black tie evenings sometimes. So I did know her a bit. But the interesting thing was. she was never with Epstein, so it wasn't as if she came in with Epstein.

She didn't. She never came anywhere with Epstein at that time. So, I mean, I didn't even know. she had this deep relationship with him because I never saw him with her. And the other person on the scene. Of course, or his know, on the scene, Donald Trump. Indeed, indeed. I certainly didn't know him. Yes, indeed I was. I sat next to him at, first, at a dinner. that, Ivana, a lunch that Ivana Gay with Getty at the time. And, Trump was sitting there was somebody quite boring next to me.

and somebody quite boring next to him. So he and I were sort of talking to each other over our lunch partners, and, he was, I thought, hilarious, you know, bravado, sort of swashbuckling. New York character, you know, he said, you know, Ivana made me go to the opera last night, you know, for hours like Pavarotti. Who cares? You know, it was like it was like that. And I thought it was quite amusing. And we covered him, you know, subsequently a lot, until he started to unravel his business and his divorce.

And then he did not like what we said about him. But, yeah, I knew him, too. So I'm going to fast forward, to 2010, because that was the year. that you commissioned Conchita Sarnoff to investigate Jeffrey Epstein. And we are going to put links to those stories in the show notes, because they can still be read. They are absolutely extraordinary pieces of journalism. They are full of details, are names that continue to resonate to this day. But can you just unpack the backstory?

I brought this two. It's very interesting because I didn't know Conchita Sarnoff before this was, I've been at the beast to that point, you know, a couple of years. I didn't know country to sound off at that point, but I was called, by somebody we both knew who said that. because I used to do the women in the World Summits, which were about empowering women who many of whom had been sort. of sexually trafficked or, you know, no education, etc. he thought that I would respond well to a story that he.

knew someone had written. Who is a sex. was a trafficking activist, a sex trafficking activist country to Sarnoff. And she she'd stumble on the story. and she thought that I should say it because he thought it was a big story. And others wouldn't have the courage to publish it. And he thought that we would, because we'd shown a commitment to women who had been, you know, abused. That's really why I think she made her way to me, and she came to see me and told me this extraordinary story about how she had. been in the course of her, sex trafficking investigations.

Not only do the journalism, her activism, she had been interviewing a child. sex Mexican child sex trafficker in the Palm Beach Stockade. And during the course of the interview, he told her that a great many of these. very underage girls were traffic to rich, men, American men in Palm Beach. And she was really taken aback because she had thought that. the whole kind of root of these girls was like, you know, cartel members, etc. she didn't expect to hear that wealthy, you know, A-list.

kind of Palm Beach people were having girls delivered to them. So she decided, and then she remembered a small item. saying that Jeffrey Epstein had been arrested. And she actually did know Jeffrey Epstein, who had asked her out for a date in New York. So the name resonated. So she decided to go to the, Palm Beach police. and ask if she could look at look at the files. And when she looked at the files on the case, she was completely I mean, her hair was on fire because it turned out. Epstein had received a 13 month sentence. for soliciting prostitution with to to minors.

But actually, in the files it showed that he had. there were multiple girls, I think it was two dozen girls who had been, who had lodged complaints about him, his activities, and she couldn't understand how this had got in a bargain down. to such a tiny sentence of 13 months of, of, of, of, you know, where he was able to it was a work release program. It wasn't even actually behind bars. That's when she thought, we've got a story here. And she really actually found that he'd made this sweetheart deal with the,

the, attorney general there. And then the question was why it was. And so what the story really became was, how of this man? Because of his contacts, his political donors, who he gave a huge amount of money, of course, to, to politicians, his contacts, his, his. wealth, his, his pressure, you know, with his lawyers, his willingness to humiliate and sort of, you know, totally denigrate the young girls who'd accused him, had actually got him to a place where he could just get out.

with a slap on the wrist so that that was our story, really. And, it was an outrageous story, in my view. And I'm. And I think I was totally shocked. I think that someone who was obviously such a predatory pedophile. could have such a small sentence and, and he was back in society. I mean, that's when I began to take notice of him again. And, you know, he wasn't totally prominent. It's not like he was in the papers every day. But Jeffrey Epstein was back on the scene. You mean you can see that? So that's where, of course, made it very interesting to me.

And so we published, I think it was a six. part series by Conchita that was fantastic journalism. I just want to I should highlight, the original headline, Jeffrey Epstein Billionaire Pedophile Goes Free. And in this piece, Conchita, I had the privilege to speak to yesterday. And who remains engaged in the story? She highlighted some of the names that still resonate to this day Prince Andrew, the connections to. Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak, who's a former Brit, the former Israeli prime minister,

Bill Richardson, who was a former New Mexico governor, you know, the late Bill Richardson. and Larry Summers, who at the time was described. as a former Treasury secretary, went on to run Harvard. Still a prominent economist. When you saw those names, what was your feeling? Well, I was just stunned. You know, I just thought, there's a web here that we have here. It's something much bigger than I had realized. So we published the first piece, and that's when I first got a phone call. First of all, I got a call from Epstein's lawyer and making.

sort of noises about suing, and I kind of ignored that. Then I got a call from Epstein himself. You know, now he's my best friend, having met him, you know, twice or something. And you had never really spoken to him. You had. No, I mean, no, no, no, he knew who I was. I knew who he was. But yeah. No. So he wasn't a friend and he kind of was very, sort of on the phone. It was like, I just want to say, you know, you should be aware. that Conchita Sarnoff is a well known nutcase. I mean, she's been spreading this nonsense about me.

You know, it's totally ridiculous. You should kill this story. So I thanked him. I said, well, thank you very much. And you got a problem. You know, talk to the database lawyer, end of story. And then a couple of days later, I went out to lunch. and I came back from lunch into this very glass. building that we were sitting into my, you know, glass office. and sitting in my own office. in a chair in front of my desk was, guess who, Jeffrey Epstein? And I was stunned. I mean, I stood at the door just kind of aghast.

because my question is like, how did he get past security? Because we have a security desk. downstairs who apprehended me today and took my picture, and they were there. and, you know, in force then very hard to get past those guys. I don't think people ever do. So how he got through, I don't know. I mean, he is a master class or was a master class con man, so maybe he was just able always to kind of get what he wanted. But he came up and he'd come into my office and, you know, obviously said to my assistant, you know, where is Tina Brown's office?

And then he went and sat in my room. So I stood by the door and. I said to him, Jeffrey, you know, what are you doing here? He said, just stop. And he looked at me with this kind of snake, eyes cold, and it was menacing. It was a really menacing. And he pointed his finger and he said, just stop. And I said, Jeffrey, you know, we are continuing to do these pieces. If you have an issue to talk to, I'll just stop said. if there will be consequences if you don't stop.

And then he just got up and he left my room. And it was a very chilling experience. I mean, it was scary actually, but we barreled ahead and obviously. it meant we were extremely careful with the legal readings, you know, which were which were very careful. But and I fully expected a sort of, you know, a 12, 12 barrel kind of legal assault after this. But he went very quiet. And I think that he decided that at that time, this was the early. days of the beast.

It was. also a time when there was a less of a sense of, like, a story. going viral, you know, and I think that he decided, you know what? I'm going to wait it out, see how bad it gets. If I start to fan the flames, it might get worse. Let's see whether we can just kind of ride it out. And he swiftly followed up with a whole kind of, philanthropic charm offensive where he was constantly. being quoted as having given money to to various foundations, etc.. And I think that one of the points then was that a Jeffrey. Epstein wasn't terribly well, not at all. I mean, he wasn't ready to do anyone except,

you know, the kind of social in crowd, as it were. Secondly, it was pre MeToo. And in those days, you know, those kind of stories. didn't quite get the same traction that they might do. They might they certainly did do later. And of course, the story was then taken up by Judy Brown at the Miami Herald. And she she actually built on country to story. But that was post MeToo. So, you know, it had a far bigger impact then. But, it was a very unsettling experience.

And you could see what a menace he could be. And how, of course, he would overpower. some young, you know, 15 year old girl, you know, very easily. He was so intimidating. So, you know, it was, I look back on it, of course, with, you know, the in in a very different way than how I saw it at the time. Interesting. There, about six months after this, I got a phone call. from the publicist, Peggy Siegel, and she said to me, Tina, I want you to come to a great dinner that we're having tonight.

Prince Andrew's in town, and I thought you might want. to come to this dinner because I know you know Prince Andrew. She said it's a Jeffrey Epstein's house. And the other guests wait for, Woody Allen and Charlie Rose. So I just I was standing out there, and, I don't know, I don't think Michael heard it, but we had a writer called Lloyd Grove. who at the time was working for us, and he was in the next. Assemblage, injury dealing, alleged injury. Media journalist. He was he is never forgotten it because I just kind of exploded into the film.

Oh, fuck. Is this the Pedophiles ball? I said, you know, what are you how dare you like, ask me to this? Because she obviously hadn't read our pieces. I don't know what did she said. Oh, I don't know what you're talking about. I mean, no, that's all old stuff. That's just nothing to do. She obviously. I mean, he was still perpetrating the myth that he was. an inevitable human at that point, and people were still buying into it. I am happy to say I declined. And now, of course, that dinner has become almost like a sort of, you know, where you one of the people who went to that same, you know,

because it was like such. I mean, part of me wishes to God I have been there because I mean, what a. what a scene. Frankly, it was. I believe was. a dinner that was also attended by George Stephanopoulos and Katie Cooper. Indeed. And both of them have expressed grave regret for that. Indeed, I said that they had clearly no idea of the intention. I believe George Stephanopoulos, who said that he was fascinated. by the idea of meeting Prince Andrew and would had no previous.

experience of Epstein and no subsequent killings. That irritated me even more, because it also meant they hadn't read. our six part series on The Daily Beast, of which I was enormously proud. But you see, that is how Epstein worked. So, I mean, the hook was Prince Andrew. Yes, I mean, the fact is, is that George Stephanopoulos would not have gone. to dinner at Epstein's house, but he always use these people. And in many ways, you know, it's interesting. His whole game, you know, was to kind of use other. other names to catch the big only the big whales that he was interested in. But as we know, he really didn't have any clients.

He only had about three clients. Essentially. It didn't matter. The whole kind of charade of like knowing people and. and being able to get anyone to come to his house was really all. about creating the social theater that would excite, he thought. And build credibility with the big whales that would then invest. So did you have any subsequent encounters with him? Was not not. Never another unwise invitation for. All I know, there was no well, no, indeed. I mean piggy back track and such, you have no idea.

And then called me back and said you're not, because I was actually about to sit down and write the story up. And then I'm afraid. I, I went out because she didn't call me, said, oh, you won't write this, will you? You want me to write this? So, yeah. No, she. And then, of course, Peggy suffered a lot from the fact that she did continue. to to see Jeffrey and invited him to her screenings and so forth. I believe that Peggy Siegel has said that she was never paid by Epstein, or represented him directly, but that she helped him socially. And who knows, kind of speaks to that appeal that you're.

Yeah. Yep. I you know, listen I mean I think that to be in. his web was to be, you know, at dinners with the likes of the people. I just mentioned. So there were some people who dug that, you know. What is it. I was just talking you, you you mentioned Michael. and that's Michael Daley, who is, our senior correspondent. He's a legendary figure in The Daily Beast, an amazingly distinguished journalist. And, I was just talking to him. We were discussing the impact that, Jeffrey Epstein has had on this web.

and the names of people that he has either brought down from public life. Prince Andrew. He had a possibly terminal effect. And Bill gates, his marriage, he's led to the disgrace of Jess Staley, who was, of a senior and significant banker. And and there been suicides, too. I mean, there is a kind of terrible darkness around Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, there've been at least four suicides, in the wake of Epstein. You know, the two of the young girls, died, you know, in their 30s. More recently, there was, of course, the the suicide,

which made a lot of news of Virginia Giuffre, who was the girl who, of course, who was trafficked by Epstein to Prince Andrew. And she committed suicide in Australia aged 41, having said she never would. So once again, it's like, did she commit suicide? It there's always this. strange question mark around all these people around Epstein. And of course, there was another suicide of his major partner in crime who was, you know, Jean-Luc Brunel, who was the man the French, model agency owner,

who really essentially was a kind of partner. for an Epstein in finding girls and and sending them to Epstein. You know, he was another real kind of underage, shock. And, he killed himself in a in a prison in Paris. the same way he knotted bedsheets in his case. Well, one of the ones, the other really chilling and, prescient, revelations in on your Substack. was what an FBI agent told Conchita in 2019.

So it just seemed 2019. In July, Jeffrey Epstein was arrested at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey. when he returned from Paris, where he had been spending time. And it was, I was working. I'm a working journalist. But at the time we were absolutely astonished to learn. that this had happened. We had what many, many people, every outlet had covered Jeffrey Epstein extensively for the last few years. And this revelation came out entirely out of the blue.

But, Conchita, told you something absolutely chilling. Will continue to continue. And I sort of stayed in touch, and she remained like a dog. with a bone like, great. Like every sort of great investigator. She just remained outraged. Her outrage never went away anyway. So she texted me. She said, you know, I've just got I must tell you something incredible. And I said, what's that? She said, I just heard. was talking to one of my major FBI sources, and she is sourced up the wazoo.

And the FBI, she really is. She has incredible, high echelon relationships in that, in the Justice Department. And she said he just said to me, I asked him what he thought about the. Epstein arrest, and he said, Jeffrey Epstein will never make it to trial. There are towels in there. It's a chilling thing. I mean, I personally am of. the dissuasion that that he it was not suicide. I have always found it very hard to believe that it was. because he was actually, you know, this was not long after his arrest.

There was still some legal hope that he could be caught out on bail. In fact, he'd had a pretty positive meeting before he killed himself. with his own lawyer, telling him that he thought the chances. of getting bail were, you know, getting out on bail were actually better. So he, you know, it was too early and, you know, in the moment for him to really, I think, you know, commit suicide, not to mention all the multiple, you know, so-called coincidences of the two gods, you know, who were asleep outside is apparently outside the salon. So they didn't notice anything.

One of them was supposedly online shopping. You know, there was the the cellmate who was supposed to be there. Who? Everybody who's a suicide risk in Rikers always has. Oh, MK, as it was, always has, you know, a code cellmate. That person had been moved. And so he was on his own, which was quite against, you know, prison, protocol, in fact. And then, of course, the missing minutes in the, the surveillance footage, which has been gets more and more murky as to what I was. Just before we started this recording. Those missing minutes. apparently grew some excellent reporting by wired magazine had.

found initially. that the metadata suggested that what we were told was the full video. was not, in fact, the full roll video, and that it was at least a minute missing. There are now at least three and a half missing minutes. Indeed, and it was spliced together from other. It wasn't a single discrete piece of video. It was. It was smashed together and no, I mean, it's three minutes is long enough. I mean, how long did it take the Navy Seals to get into a bin lover's.

house and and, and and, you know, kill everybody there. I mean, it is it's a mysterious question. and I don't think has been fully, properly investigated. I mean, I never understood why Bilbao like the day after kind of the war, certainly very close to the day. after it flew immediately down there and spent a long time in the prison. I mean, why, there's too many unanswered questions. And of course, now the biggest question is why,

having hyped this whole question of Epstein all these years, I mean, Don Epstein, a Donald Trump junior, tweeted, I think in 2003, in a time to release the files, you know, so they were all on it. I will say for Trump that when he was asked by Fox if he would. pardon him, the full tape, if you look at it not as a as opposed to. the soundbite, is more equivocal than what we've been told, because we only ever. see the thing where he says, yes, I would, I would release the files. He then followed it up with quite a little demo of he had.

If it seems as if there is credible, you know, say it was a little more, much less, you know, emphatic than when he was asked about there are the JFK files. I thought you offered a vague a brilliant description of this. scandal and mystery that it's like JFK and Marlin Monroe. It seems that every time we pull back another layer, we just find more mystery. Yeah. One of the most remarkable things is we are sitting discussing this.

in 2025. The events that we are talking about began at the very at the very latest. In the in the 1990s, Jeffrey Epstein was abusing children. He was first investigated by the police in 2004. Yeah. He signed a non-prosecution agreement 2007. Yeah. He was convicted by plea agreement for only one count in 2008. And this should all be ancient history. But instead, we have a life unfolding scandal in front of our eyes.

that appears to, well, certainly engulfs the president. and me, threaten his connection to his base. It is. I mean, you know what I say. One thing you know, before when you talked about, the names. Right. One of the things that makes it the Epstein story, sort of so complex. is that his swirl, a network of connections, were often involved with him for sort of different reasons, in a strange way. I mean, they were the people because, I mean, he was a crook, Jeffrey.

Epstein, you know, he was he was either laundering money for people, hiding money for people. He was very, very good at hiding people's money. And he knew how to do that. And there are a lot of people, I think, whose money he hid. And of course, once he'd done that, he they were in his, his thrall. So there were the people that were, you know, were going to him. because he knew they knew he could hide money. There were the people who were, you know, he was laundering money. There were the people who, you know, was sort of interested. in his whole social stuff, you know, in a kind of slightly campy society.

Where's the action kind of way? And then there were the, you know, the outright, you know, hardcore pedophile, you know, people who realized. that Jeffrey Epstein could provide them with underage girls, which he did. So there's a lot of different layers of the people around Epstein. so that when there are some who say, look, I had nothing to do with this stuff, it's true, you know, because he had, a big network. I mean, when I mentioned, you know, the dinner party, I mean, they weren't all that for underage girls. I mean, George Stephanopoulos certainly wasn't.

You know, I mean, there were people. who used to fraternize with Epstein who had nothing to do with those things. So it makes it sort of doubly, hard to penetrate. And of course, for the untutored in kind of what social norms mean, you know, for the MAGA base, it's like all these names are fancy. people who were pedophiles. So that is a perfect moment to ask Donald Trump, a man who absolutely was somewhere in Jeffrey Epstein's web. Where do you place him in that way?

Well, it was 15 years, wasn't it, that he was hanging out with Epstein? I think that I think if you look, there's a video that isn't a. that very good and piece of video from I think it was CNBC. which shows them at a party together talking. And actually, I think it's worth getting a lip reading to just. see if you can find out exactly what they were saying to each other. But to me, the conversation was straight. Grab it by the pussy. It was a grab a by the pussy conversation. You know, it was a he. They're talking together, heads together. And you know that Trump is saying, you know he's talking. And then you can see that.

they're looking at women on the dance floor and saying, well, she's hot. And, you know, wouldn't you like to do sex with her? And, you know, so there was a clearly a bond of, you know, louche, go hunting kind of behavior. So, yeah, I think he was very much involved with that, that sort of sauce scene with, with with Epstein. I don't happen to think that that that little girls are the presidents. Thank you know, I, I really don't. I think that he's a guy who likes you know, we know what he likes. He likes, you know, very sort of Playboy bunny types and and you know,

the models and, you know, he's never shown a predilection for that. So I think that that's why it's complex. I think that he was hanging out with Epstein. because there was a lot of a lot of stuff going on. Girls, rich people. I mean, all this, this, this, this thick texture of stuff that, that Trump is, you know, loves frankly, he loves that kind of scene. And it doesn't do him any good to fact that he used to hang out with him as. president, before he was president. I mean, he obviously doesn't want to talk about that.

It's strange to me, actually, though, that he's become so agitated about these files now. I mean, why is he so agitated? Is it simply that they lied for so long about what was there, you know, or his circle did that he doesn't want to be revealed. as there's really nothing here. It genuinely or, you know, all that people in those files. I mean, is he in the files a lot? And it just simply doesn't want to be there. Other people with whom he's entangled now, who he feels he owes something to.

I mean, I did actually think of another possibility, which was like, is it more useful for Trump to know the names and other people don't? I mean, Trump is the king of leverage, right? Come from that. Come from out. It's great. Kompromat frankly. So that could be one thing, you know, that that that that, you know, is, is there to be explored. I do think, though, that he has not understood how this is such a kind of core. article of faith for MAGA for some reason, that it's worse.

The psychologist telling us is like they are obsessed with pedophilia, his base. So, I mean, it's the whole QAnon thing was all pedophilia. There was a whole thing about how Hillary Clinton. was supposed to be running a pedophile ring in a pizza store. I mean, what it is about pedophilia in these people, I don't know, but they are obsessed and I don't think it is going to get dropped. And I think that what is interesting is that. the explosive tweet that he sent out on Tuesday about. this is like, it's it's, you know, yeah, I'm sick of this basically. You know, it's like, I don't care what my supporters.

think about you know, like if they don't want to be my supporters. Okay. I thought it was a very ill advised tweet on his part. because essentially it was like he's forgetting who owns in. Right. And he's mad as hell now because they're supposed to be owned by him. I mean, as we as we know, famously he said, I can walk down Fifth Avenue and. shoot somebody and my base would still love me. He finds this insurrection deeply aggravating. because they're supposed to just get in line and worship him, and they're not, you know, and they, on their part, have begun to suspect.

I mean, as Candace Owens said, I mean, with the sort of. We are finding ourselves agreeing with. Candace Owens. The sort of. Misogyny suddenly, suddenly says in her thing about it's. almost as if Trump thinks his base is stupid. And I'm thinking, you think you're saying? I mean, he's always thought they were stupid. That's the whole point. That's that's been his his his superpower. He has known this, you know, he is. But he knows in his heart. you think he wants to hang out with a lot of those people? No, he doesn't, you know, so. Just in the last I, I think this is I think I've collated.

48 hours, that explosive tweet. He then followed that up. He talked about how people had bought into bullshit, that they are bad people, that they are weaklings, that they are stupid people. And he sought to blame the Democrats who. very clearly are nowhere near which. MAGA, even MAGA are like, yes, you know, they're not buying that, because to be quite honest, I mean, half the people on those planes were Democrats. I mean, I don't think any Democratic president wanted to release, you know,

any more names like Bill, governor Bill Richardson. and and the whole thing that Clinton was constantly being tarred with. And none of them wanted to go there at all. So this is a nonsense. And it's like it suddenly must have sort of hit him in the shower or something. I can blame this on Democrats. He's too late. I mean, this has not been for him. A dexterous, sort of, you know, use of lying, which is usually very effective in his sight. But it's not working this time. What? What do you think? You've observed so many scandals,

sagas over the years and reported on them. So rigorously. What is it about this that sets it apart? And what is it that makes it so difficult for Trump to shake? Well, I mean, I. think it's it's the names, obviously. It completely dovetails. with the theory of his base. that there is this elite global power class. who have never, who always sneered and had contempt for them.

And Trump is supposed to be the person who understands them and their value. You know, he was the one who saw them, as it were. And indeed, if you not, Alexandra Pelosi's wonderful, documentary about, this January, the Sussexes has got some great interviews. with people who come at who. the January 6th is, who came out of prison in a long before they were pardoned. Who? You know who, she asks, like, how do you feel about Trump now? We love him. I mean, the fact we don't care when he's he's our guy.

He knows who we are. He speaks directly to us. They kept saying, you know, he speaks to us. so suddenly it's like Trump's not speaking to them anymore. He's behaving as if they're fools. In fact, he said, so he said, your weekly tour. So he's really misjudged this because he's basically telling them. he's treating them like the global elite that they hate so much. Have always treated them. This is not good. This is not who that this is not that guy. This is not the president they thought he was going to be. And it's almost as if Trump has forgotten,

who owns them. essentially, and is turning into a president. who does things that they hate, like, you know, he's supposed to be a get he's done great for them on immigration. You know, they always they love what he's done on that. But I mean, he's supposed to hate foreign wars and what's he doing. sending, you know, arms to Ukraine now and dropping bombs on on Iran. And, you know, this is not what he's supposed to be doing. So they're beginning to think what's happened to our guy is our guy. And if they start to think he isn't, that's very dangerous, man.

Which I think for Trump, because it could be a huge sort of pivot in his power, because this has always been his power that that they believe. that they have this intimate bond of sensibility and value to him. And if they think he's just, you know, kicking them to the curb and calling them. weaklings and just get on the train, because I'm telling you, I don't think that's going to play well. Do you sense this man you sat beside that was gregarious and hilarious? Do you sense he has the survival skills that he can come through this,

or is this a is this as, as you put it, a moment that MAGA splits asunder? Well, I think ironically. And who would have thought it. Because how many times in the last decade. and we all said, we'll never get away with this. I mean, all the way. This is the moment. This is. This is. A moment. I mean, from the moment he said, you know, John McCain was like a loser. You know, it's like every time you thought, well, that's the end of his career. Never was. And to his supporters, that's Trump Derangement syndrome.

Still, it's hard. People capsize. So it's never he's he's I mean look at look at all the lawsuits he survived. I mean, he was supposed to be crushed. by all of these, you know, lawsuits during the last 4 or 5 years. He won every one of them, or he got away with one of them. And the ones he didn't win it hasn't mattered. So he has been this Teflon creature, and, you know, he's shot and he's. And, you know, I mean, it's like he's he's been absolutely untouchable. And who would have thought that it's this, you know, tawdry old scandal. that might be the tipping point kind of thing.

any one of us would have said if you were asked any of us. What is the thing. that will finally be, you know, a bridge too far for the MAGA base to turn on him? Well, none of us would have said the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. If you were if you were to go back to 2010, that moment that. you commissioned for I, I'll just repeat my point. There was a scandal foretold it. Almost all the details of what we know about Epstein are in this, these extraordinary, this extraordinary series.

for what would have made it more resonant, what would have made people understand it, or is it something that. I think it was the moment it was too early. You know, when, you know, sometimes when you're first, you're too early. People were not interested enough in him at that point. You know, I mean, there are plenty of stories about, you know, sleazy socialites. or whatever that you read, but, you know, you don't know them, you know, I think perhaps obviously, if I, you know, if, if, if it. if it had happened.

when I was the editor of Vanity Fair, I could have probably made a bigger noise. with it. You know, don't forget the Daily Beast was a young Neil Young, you know, sort of, you know, renegade. site that had not, you know, been on the scene that long. So, you know, had it been published. in the New York Times, perhaps it would have had. But I sort of somehow think it wouldn't because people weren't not interested. in Jeffrey Epstein. I think what people were really interested in of it, in the sort of story moved to that which was like, what was Bill Clinton doing on that play, you know? So then that became that story.

Well, what do you one of the things that you, you wrote about on in your latest, fresh hell on Tuesday night is but Dan Bongino, yes, who is an extraordinary avatar for what is happening inside MAGA. He's a deputy director of the FBI, a position that in normal times would be. held by somebody with extraordinary all law enforcement experience. He is, admittedly a former police officer and Secret Service agent,

but he's really known for being a podcaster and for expressing, robust right wing views would be one way to put it. And somebody who had absolutely fueled the Epstein fire. But he is. No, I just want to, to highlight, the way you look, the way you express it, a tattooed snowflake, he was he was absent. Missing without leave, absent without leave from FBI headquarters setting these.

Yeah. Absolutely pathetic, wasn't it? I mean, I think that he hates the job. I mean, he really has made no secret of that. because it's so much easier and much more lucrative. to be sitting in your basement bloviating and grabbing rumors. out of the air and putting them out there and getting adulation for it and, you know, big bucks. than it is to be sitting, as he put it, you know, in a white office. at 730 in the morning, like, hello, that's what most people do, that's, you know, and sort of working.

I mean, he, you know, he said, oh, I don't deal. I don't deal in, in, in, rumors anymore. You know, I deal. And, you know, we have to deal in evidence. Yeah. You know, I guess what happens when you deal in evidence? I mean, you this rumor mongering goes out the window. So he's in a very difficult position. because all of his life has been about undermining the FBI. And it's been about, you know, propaganda, absolute rubbish on the airwaves. And now he's in the, you know, the most kind of forensically, fact, you know, driven organization in, in the country,

essentially, which is has to be about backing up what you say. So he's in a very difficult situation, and I think it is quite obvious he's. so much farther back in his basement bloviating and getting big checks. Is he isn't. Obviously, we don't know if he's going to stay or go. And I should say we are taping this a few enough hours. before it's going to go out on air that anything could happen. I think he's toast already. I mean, you know, in one thing. one learns about Trump is you have to listen. very carefully to his endorsements, like his fulsome endorsements.

and his fulsome endorsements of Michael Wolff's, you know, who. who was part of signal, Kate. And the next thing is, you know, wait a bit and then suddenly, bam, he's out of there, I think. But Dan is is is toast. Because, you know, Trump says he was asked like, well, is he still in post? You know, is he stuck? And he goes like, yeah, I think he's doing well. I think that, yeah, I think he, you know, I actually I love to show. I used to go on his show a lot, you know, I mean, that's not an endorsement at all.

It has a kind of sinister vagueness to it. And I think he's he's already decided that that he's going to go. And I don't think that I'm wondering I about care much. I think that he will go back to his basement. Who who else are you? Who you looking at next as avatars for this scandal? Because we have had this parade of extraordinary names. Well, I think the banking piece of it hasn't, has still hasn't really been. looked at as closely as it might. I mean, obviously Jesse Staley is the guy who knows more than anyone.

Essentially, he was the banker at, at JP Morgan, who then moved to but had to be head of Barclays Bank. But he was he, he managed, you know, he was the kind of the guy who managed. the Epstein account, you know, and he also his emails are very incriminating. I mean, he had clearly had more. than a money managing relationship with, with Epstein and his world. So there's a lot I think, that he hasn't come up with. And I think he's not a dead story in that there might come a point.

when he starts to sort of talk and talk and talk. to get some change in his predicament, whatever it might be. So I think the banking part of it is, is very, very interesting. I mean, I think we have to have a sort of really, sort of an autopsy on, on, you know, on the way that that Epstein died again, I mean, and. and what is that what is the reason for these tapes being spliced together? I mean, somebody knows who did that. And so let's go back in terms of reporting and find out who's the guy.

who spliced the tapes and who was he reporting to, and what was he asked to do? Because that's a very mysterious circumstance. I think one of the things that you were absolutely right to put at the very heart. of that reporting back in 2010, and I, I hope that we continue to do it. The beast is the victims. Yeah, there are, according to the Department of Justice's allegedly. final memo, as many as a thousand young girls were victimized.

Yes. And. of those we know as. as as you, as you were just highlighting the at least three of them are dead. Yeah. But as I say, this all causes it's a tool of tragedy that. It's a total tragedy. I mean, this is one of the things that absolutely appalled Conchita. when she went through those first police files. So you know that two of the girls, you know, were 14 years old who were shipped in from the Balkans. You know, I mean, this is really heinous. And I think that the Giuffre story remains Virginia Giuffre does remain.

a very interesting story because she was at the heart of this case. You know, she's the one who brought down Prince Andrew. She was there for years with them. She's the one who really sort of helped to finger, Julian as an accomplice. So her story, like she gets, she suddenly commits suicide in Australia. I mean, I know. she'd been having a rough time, though, you know, and she'd gone very bad. And. And her husband, she alleged, you know, was was was abusive towards her.

But it's there's too many questions. again about that and what Virginia knew. I noticed that the sort of the day after her death, you saw people, two people carrying boxes out of her apartment. I thought to myself, well, I wonder what those. I mean, two specific boxes and you think, who, who. who made the decision to go in there right away and take these two boxes out? There's more there than we know. And I think that story has got more legs in it. And for Donald Trump, what's your prediction?

He's going to have. to come up with a better version than he is at the moment. You know, I mean, he has got to be made to understand this is not something he can blow off. So what does he do? I mean, is he going to we don't know what's in those files. If there's nothing in the files, as he says, then why not release them? Yes, there is something in those files he does not want to see out there. And how he gets around that, I don't know. I think it's a really knotty issue for him,

and I don't think it's going to go away. I think he will try to do things that will distract everybody. I know I think he can drop a bomb on Moscow, or he'll do anything he can to try to change the subject, but I don't think this particular story can be expunged like he usually does. Well, Tina, thank you for coming and talking to us. Thank you for being part of it, too. The setting up The Daily Beast. I'm just going to say again, the six part series. is an extraordinary work of journalism, and it stands not just a test of time.

It shows the direction of travel. Tina, thank you for coming. You. It was fun back here. Thank you for an extraordinary set of insights also into Donald Trump, a man who I do. not think is going to be inviting you to dinner in the near future either. Afraid I burn a lot of bridges and fresh hell. But I will say that the beast is alive and I'm so, so thrilled. at the current regime. I think it's finally got its kind of gusto back. Him. You know, it's it's. always been a wonderful sight actually, even in periods which has been less.

you know, less good than others. But right now it's it's on fire. So. Well, congratulations to. Kind and thank you so much for giving us the vision and the DNA. Thank you. And we so much appreciate it and cannot wait to welcome you back. When I think my much more distinguished co-host, Joanna Coles, will be asking the questions. Joanna and I go way back, so that'll be fun. Thank you know, by. Michael, very good to see you. You posted an intriguing,

Instagram today. We're recording this on Tuesday morning about the Epstein files. And you mentioned that Kash Patel and Donald Bongino, the number one and. the number two at the FBI, respectively, have been hoist by their own petard. They've been initially part of the conspiracy theorists demanding. the release of the Epstein files and the Epstein client list. And now, of course, Pam Bondi at the Department of Justice has said.

there's nothing to see here. There is no client list. He definitely killed himself. It wasn't murder. And now the people that were very much at the forefront of the conspiracy. have had to accept that, it is indeed so. So what are your thoughts about all this? I really want to unpack Jeffrey Epstein with you. I know you spent a lot of time with him, and I really want to understand it. And also so interesting to me that the DOJ. literally released or Axios got the story.

The initial story about the DOJ saying this exactly. six years from when Epstein was arrested at Peterborough airport. It was July the 6th, 2019, and I was just checking today, when he was arrested, and it was exactly six years. that they after that, they released a statement. Just to fill in some, some details. He left his apartment in Paris.

And got into his. Maybach to go to the airport. Nice detail. Most expensive Mercedes, I think. And called me and called it. Whoa. Yes. Okay. I'm not really paying attention. Right. To arrange, breakfast the next morning. So this was a Saturday to arrange breakfast on Sunday?

We never had that breakfast. Of course. He arrived at the at the airport and then was immediately arrest. So how did you find out that he wasn't able to meet you for breakfast? You know, I can't quite remember who. who called and how I may have heard it from from the news. It was immediately and, enormous. But somebody in the circle of people who knew. Epstein and in fact,

it may have been Steve Bannon who called. Me, Steve Bannon, who was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein's two. Yeah. Bannon and Epstein were very close. I knew them both. And Bannon was. very concerned about this. Well, can you remind people what the first thing. Steve Bannon said to Jeffrey Epstein was when they met? I was there, and it was that that that moment. And, Bannon said to Epstein, and he said this.

in a, in a, in a good humor, he said. during the campaign that would be the 2016 campaign. You, meaning Jeffrey Epstein, were the only person I was afraid of. Meaning that he had stories about Donald Trump that should they surface. Yes. Bannon felt that that the one person who had the goods. on Donald Trump was Jeffrey Epstein. So we had Anthony Scaramucci on the podcast,

on Tuesday morning. He said, this doesn't smell right. Something definitely odd about this. Elon definitely thinks there's something, between Trump and Epstein. You should ask Michael Wolff. So we're asking. you tell us about the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. But how significant is this statement from the DOJ that there is no client list? Are they parsing words? Well, I think, I mean, Pam Bondi,

let's let's understand the context in which she functions. She, she takes instructions. So the idea of an independent. attorney general no longer exists, in my understanding is that when, when the, the white. House team, the, the inner Trump circle. had had the initial discussion with her. about taking this job and remember,

the, the the first choice was Matt Gates. And then he was he was pushed out for all kinds of. Well, he was pushed out for his own shenanigans with underage girls and drugs. Yes. And a lot of interlocking scandals. And, so she was then she was the second choice, and she was. and she was rather forthrightly told, your job, we're not doing this anymore. like they used to do it. And independent attorney general always at,

or often at loggerheads with the white House. Your job is to carry water for the president of the United States. You work for. Him. So when you say she takes instruction, she takes instruction from the president. Yeah. Or or the president's people. She from the white House. So the the attorney general of the United States works. as essentially an adjunct to the, to the West Wing, to people in the West Wing.

They are her superiors and, and I think it was, you know, she, she completely she accepted this. This is she was going to be Donald Trump's lawyer. Not the nation's, highest ranking law. enforcement officer, but Donald Trump's lawyer. Okay, so she's not like Jeff Sessions, who got appointed as first attorney general. John Trump won and promptly recused himself.

from pretty much everything that was going on. and turned out to be a great disappointment. Trump, right. She's not like in any of even the others. Even Bill Barr, who was certainly carried his share of water, was still there. trying to trying to. at least maintain the pretense of some independence. Successfully or not. But she doesn't she doesn't maintain she there virtually is no pretense. And Bill Barr, who has a strange connection to the Epstein story because his father.

was the headmaster of Dalton who actually hired Jeffrey Epstein. And this is the stuff of which conspiracies are made. Well, that just hand that just. Delivered, right? I mean, you can't make it up. And he wrote a book about sex in space. Very odd for a headmaster to do. He did it after he left Dalton. Well, he was, let us say, a very hard headmaster. And Jeffrey Epstein without a college. degree was a very odd teacher in an expensive private school.

In any school. But. True. True. And he didn't last very long. Although he obviously liked underaged pupils. Whatever. Let's not go down there, but let us talk about. how significant is it that Pam Bondi said there's no class. At least there's nothing to see here. He didn't he wasn't murdered. We're putting this to bed. Well, I think there is this there was there has been. this peculiar tension, of the.

of the right wing of a lot of the MAGA base, propounding this conspiracy. theory about Jeffrey Epstein and in their mind, you know, this was a bunch of Democrats, remember, Bill Clinton was was, was very close to, or for a period. was very close to Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein, Larry, Larry Summers, there was a whole, a whole, a whole range of of of Democrats,

and pay no attention to that. There was a whole range of Republicans, too. They were very focused on, on, on this and not focused. And I really don't know what could be on their, on going through their heads on the fact that, Jeffrey Epstein's. closest relationship in life. was with Donald Trump, that these were, that these were two guys.

joined at the hip for a good 15 years. They did everything together. And this is from from sharing. Well, pursuing women, hunting women, sharing. at least one girlfriend for at least a year. In this kind of, you know, rich guy relationship with each other's planes. To to,

to Epstein advising, advising Trump on his taxes, how to cheat on his taxes. They were. I dare say they kind of loved each other. These were these were, these were the and, you know, brothers in arms for a long time. And why did they stop being friends. 2004 over a real estate deal?

And always fundamental. The reason Rich guy's fall out with each other is nearly. invariably about real estate. And in this case, Epstein had bid on a house in Palm Beach. He had bid $36 million. He thought he had. Had he he thought the deal was his, he brought his friend Trump over to look at the house and advise him on.

how to move the swimming pool. Isn't that the first thing you do. whenever you look at a piece of real estate? Trump immediately went around. his back and bid $40 million. And then there was much squabbling after that. But they their their relationship immediately broke down. So is the assumption that the reason. the DOJ is not releasing any more information on Jeffrey.

Epstein is because it's somehow trying to protect Donald Trump. Well, yeah. I mean, I think throughout the, the, the, the Trump years, both. the first administration and this and now this, this second administration, and in between, it has always been an incredibly sensitive topic. So again, that that, again, that, that weird juxtaposition of the MAGA guys going, Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein and, and Trump, you know, basically kind of cowering,

you know, and there was there was a moment. which I reported on, at the end of the last administration, when, when he became very wary. about the arrest of, of Glenn Maxwell and, and asked whether whether or not, what could she say, what would she say? And should he pardon her? Well, he certainly said, oh, she's a very nice woman.

I wish her well as she was at, you know, shortly after she was arrested. for, at, you know, and accused of grooming young women. Yes, but behind and behind the scenes and this is, as I say, I reported this this was a discussion. I mean, he was I mean, everybody everybody around him was kind of like, oh, God, do we want, you know, we hope, we hope she won't say anything, but we really hope he doesn't pardon her. So do you think the conspiracy theorists stop now?

No, it's this is this is lies. As I said in the. the post I did this morning, that this is Kennedy assassination level stuff. It just feeds on itself and it feeds on itself. for a lot of reasons, not to mention Donald Trump at the center of this, but also because overwhelmingly, the people who have spoken about this, who with great authority, who have reported on this, who have made themselves experts on this, that, don't know anything.

They certainly never met Jeffrey Epstein. They were they were not they were not part of. of of his circle, of his life. And conversely, all of the people who do know something, who were in this inner circle have scrupulously said. nothing first, because and not least of all because, because they might then be implicated in knowing Jeffrey Epstein.

So who are you talking about? You know, from Bill Clinton to Larry Summers to. a, you know, a long, a long list. And there have been a long list of people who have known Jeffrey Epstein. and in fact, know I go. you can go so far as to say anybody who was anybody. knew Jeffrey Epstein and certainly at a moment in time. And, and of course, now no one wants to have known Jeffrey Epstein. There's a one point that and after he was arrested,

I think that The New York Times said, how how did they put it was kind of like, shocking. They said anyone who has. who has shaken hands with Jeffrey Epstein in the last. 20 years, is worthy of suspicion. So you spent time with Jeffrey Epstein. Why did you start spending time with him in 2014?

He asked me, and I had had some, contact with him before. Before this. And but in 2014, he asked if I would be interested in writing a book about him. And, and I said, probably not. But, but Jeffrey, is charming. Jeffrey is is accessible. Jeffrey is is it's kind of like, what's not to like?

Oh, what's not to like was the fact that at that stage, he'd already been in jail for soliciting underage. Yes. No, no, no, of course. But I'm there as a journalist. And that was part of the story. And, and I considered it, so I said and part of his then offer was, was you can come into my house at any time, you can be part of this. kind of ongoing discussion or salon.

or whatever you might want to call it, that he had virtually every day, and filled with, with, with people you might want to meet, from Bill gates to, Peter Teal to, let's I say Larry Summers to Ehud Barak to Steve Bannon to, Joe Ito from MIT just daily, who was the CEO. of Barclays, Prince Andrew Leon Black, the founder of Apple.

Noam Chomsky. Yeah, that one was very confusing to me. Noam Chomsky. The Dalai Lama, I mean, the. The Dalai Lama. Yes. The the list goes on. I mean, the list is extraordinary. Did you actually meet the Dalai Lama? Jeffrey Epstein's. Yeah. Indeed. Whoa. I don't think I knew that. And I it's it's a, I mean, I don't know why I'm laughing. It's just so surprising. What?

Everything is surprising. I mean, that's what. So. So, one of the answers to why is why. I would go or why or why anyone would go. It was always extraordinary. You know, there was. one time I, I came, I came in, and you go, there's. you go through these immense, castle doors and they open the kind of the kind of like in a horror film. And this is his house on the upper East Side,

which is rumored to be the largest private house in Manhattan. Yes. And it's sort of open, like, you know, in those films, like, you know, Igor opening the, the the door to the castle and, and you came in and then and then there's a was a large, a large, a kind of formal reception area. And then, and then the house went up several stairs into the main, into the main, main part of the house. And, so I came in and he was standing at the top of the stairs,

With some the Dalai Lama or. No, no. Epstein, Jeffrey was standing there with another guy who looked very familiar. I mean, Nangong Li familiar, you know, had I gone to high school with him. Who did you know? Was he an actor? It's it's, he wasn't probably an actor because he was pretty ugly. Character actor. Yes. But but then,

Jeffrey said, oh, oh, Bill, you know, Michael, and and then and even then, it was a kind of a second, but then I got, oh, okay. Yes. Bill gates. So it was always that kind of experience. So you went back. You went once, you went twice. You kept going back. Twice to with the the bait of interesting people. And was he filming these people having sex and then blackmailing them?

I mean, that's what we're led to believe. You know, I never I so I, I never I, I certainly never saw any evidence of that. And I would say on the other hand, the contrary point of that is that everybody showed up there, and certainly willingly and because they adored this guy. I mean, he was I mean, this was a collection of people who, who who arrived at Jeffrey's and didn't want to leave.

and then would stay there for meal after meal and while away the day. And, and they, you know, they were they were not there because they were being blackmailed. They were there very clearly because they wanted to be there out of pure choice. So I understand. what was the role of all these young women that were around. Jeffrey Epstein at events like this, where he was having his rolling salons,

which sound a little bit. like sort of intellectual freak offs with perhaps without the baby oil. Well, yeah. Although although it's not, it's not that different except for the, the, the, the quality of the people there who are, I mean, just imagine any, any office around any conference room. where a discussion, especially in Washington, because much of the discussion was always about public policy,

about about what was going on in, in, in, in, around the world. This was all a kind of flow of information. And, and it was incredibly valuable. It could be incredibly valuable information. And what was the Dalai Lama talking about? Well, there was always a steady stream of, of, of people. coming to try to get money from Epstein. And where did his money come from?

And so and so that's a I mean, that's clearly a mystery. That remains a mystery. Probably probably a central mystery. So when when people talk about the blackmail and the clients, you know, I think that. So that's a way to avoid the fact that. that that the real mystery is a much more complicated one. Where did this money come from? And, you know, I don't I don't know, and I don't know anyone who knows Jeffrey, who actually knows.

I have a few things, and I've once I once asked Epstein. directly about this, and, and he said. he said I run a reverse. Ponzi scheme in an actual Ponzi scheme. You make it seem like money that does not exist. Is there? That it exists? I make money that does exist.

Seem like it doesn't exist. So sort of tax loopholes and strange Cayman Island type shenanigans. Yeah. Well, the, the the, the example he gave is if a very wealthy man gets a divorce. and can hide $100 million, then he gets to save $50 million, right? And then Jeffrey Jeffrey gets half of that. And did you ever think of of writing the book? Yes. I've often thought about writing the book. I mean, I'd, I didn't.

I when when he was alive, I was always skeptical of, of doing this book just because I felt he would be a pain in the ass to, if you went forward with it. And then, by the way, at. in this conversation with Epstein, in as soon as Trump started to run and, and he became this key source. for me about about Trump, and obviously, I was.

I had begun writing about Trump as of 2016. But afterwards, after he died, I did consider this. And then it, it, I think it has become extremely difficult. to talk about Epstein in a way. that is not entirely focused. on his victims, so-called victims.

I mean, that became that became the convention, the media convention. And I think most media certainly establish media outlets. have been very, very, very reluctant to deal with this story. They don't want to deal with this story. It's to, you know, it's it has a life is too short aspect to it. Everybody feels they're going to get in trouble, say the wrong thing, go in the wrong direction on this story. Well, I, I couldn't hear listeners and viewers of this podcast saying,

oh my goodness. She let him go unchallenged. When you said so-called victims, what do you mean, so-called victims? Because we've heard the women's story from the tragic Virginia Giuffre, who also took her own life last month, and who appeared to have a terrible life. And we know that a lot of the women that he ended up soliciting massages. from and, and happy endings from came from sad backgrounds. where this was an opportunity for them to crawl their way out.

There was a sort of. pyramid scheme of the girls at the local high school, Neymar, Lago, passing him on. Well, we've had, we've had. Yeah. And I don't, I don't, I don't disagree with this. I mean it's just that, that the I mean, I mean all we have. is, is a set of depositions. This this comes from this is all obviously obviously. there are many each of these things creates many more questions. On top of that, everybody is.

is, is, is is fueled by. by a financial reward here. I mean, this is we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars that have this. this Epstein basically ended up supporting the South Florida bar. Clearly he was doing, you know, Jeffrey. Epstein had had, a part of his life, but, you know, a fairly.

discreet or secret part of his life. was a life devoted to a true, a serious, fetishism abuse. You know, a kind of outside. outside of the of the of the context of what. many people who were around him knew was going on. And why do you think that Ghislaine Maxwell?

Hasn't talked. or hasn't talked more about this. and has accepted a 20 year prison sentence? I assume because you know that much. You know, why else would why why. else would would you, would would you not take a get out of jail ticket? When did you last talk to him? So you were due to meet him for lunch? The day off or breakfast the day after he was arrested?

When did you last speak to him? I believe that I was. I got the last message from him before he died. And what was that message? In this case, this came through one of his. One of his lawyers, and it's gone on a Friday evening. He died on Saturday morning, August the 10th. And his message to me. hours before this happened was,

and it was just in in response to me asking, you know, how he was? And he said, still hanging around. He literally said, still hanging around. And was that do you think that was a coded message? No, I don't I don't know. I mean, it was it was in character. Everything that he said was, was, was cast in, in, in amusing, unserious, ironic.

And I'm not sure I ever quite heard, him say a, a, you know, an utter, an entirely serious sentence. Do you mean it was sort of heavy with irony? Yes. Or it was just blithe. So. Just I mean, I don't know. So, that that means he could not as described. He could not have killed himself as the, as the circumstances presented, he could not have been murdered.

So how do you think he died? I have no idea. I mean. Well, and we're clearly not going to find out. anything more from the Department of Justice. Clearly not. But. And again, remember, and I think it's it it I think it is vital. to understand this story that there is at the center of this, a relationship between two men who are doing the same, just involved.

in the same thing, who are living, they're living their similar lives. They have the same interests, girls, money. Not working. You know, living, living this sybaritic life. And one ends up dead. in the darkest prison in America, and one ends up in the white House. When Elon Musk and Donald Trump had that big up,

Elon Musk tweeted about Epstein. and then later deleted the tweet saying he'd gone too far. Why do you think he deleted that tweet? I think probably it was trying to recover. some, some semblance of a. of a civil relationship. You know, I think he probably realized he had a lot at risk here.

And I think you realize he had touched the, you know, the Epstein. is, for Donald Trump, a third rail. It's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Well, thank you very much for coming on and talking about it. I would refer people to the chapter in your book to famous, which has, an amazing transcript of the conversation. that you witnessed there with Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein. And, had Barack, who arrives in the middle of it.

and asks for a boiled egg with caviar or possibly an omelet, with caviar. He doesn't want the omelet. He wants the cabinet. Just wants the caviar. But there's some egg in there as well. And I remember thinking, well, this is clearly a very heady environment, and appeared to be no girls at that. I think it was taking place in the morning. Yeah. No, I don't, I mean, the, the girls at Epstein's house and I have, haven't. I never went to,

Epstein's island or, or. or the house in Palm Beach. I mean, I've been to the house in Paris and the house in New York and, and, and and there were the girls were. I mean, I never had any sense that these girls were. were younger than they should be, although they weren't old. You know, they were 20. I'm say,

and, and they sort of functioned. as assistants, partly. Kind of, yeah. You know, room decorations, they, they sort of fluttered around the, around the edges. I mean, they certainly weren't in any way central to anything that was. that was going on. With the guests solely men or were the women of substance there, too?

There were a couple of women of substance, women of enormous substance. So can you give us a clue? I can't. I mean, I could, but. But you're saving it. You're are you saving it for the book? You know, I do feel that, I mean, of of the many. there are many people associated with, with Epstein.

And and it is has become difficult for everyone. For everybody. So I, I sort of feel especially with the, with, with the women involved that, that, that they don't, I mean, if, if no one knows who they are, it's, it's kind of. But why not leave it like that? Well, because presumably somebody knows who they are. Are you saving this for your book?

No, I'm I'm just. I mean, I mean, in one instance, you know, I had made a promise about about this. when you're threading this needle and I'm in this awkward position of being both. a journalist in this environment, and then someone who who, who has shared a lot of confidences. Just because that seems to be the. I mean, this happens to me in many situations because I, I,

I kind of fade into the woodwork. I'm there taking notes or having a recorder on, and people forget about this. So, so they don't know if I'm their friend or I'm their. or, the, I'm the reporter in the midst. Well, I can't believe that anybody wouldn't understand. You were the reporter in the mix. You know, you'd be surprised.

I mean, there's a whole, you know, seven months in the Trump White House. Yeah. For the fire. For fire and fury. They didn't seem to register. Quite register that. That's nice. Well, Michael, as of a very interesting talking to and, come back and talk to us. soon any time and just reminding people that they can follow. your daily updates on Instagram on Michael Wolf NYC. Let's speak soon.

What connects. all these stories, models and journalists alike? It's the same stark fact power attracts. predators, secrecy shields them, and reckoning is often long overdue. It's clear Epstein's world was built on secrecy, influence and manipulation, touching the highest levels of wealth and power. From the gilded towers of Manhattan to the chaos of Trump world, we've seen how influence and wealth can mask some of the darkest realities.

These episodes remind us that the consequence of those actions. ripple far beyond the boardrooms, the boardrooms and the private planes. And that history, when examined closely, always leaves a trail. The full picture is still coming into focus. and will be here to follow it wherever it leads. We love you, and I notice a lot of you are beginning to comment too. So thank you to Heidi Riley, Karen White, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Bo Kok, DC.

who Michael sometimes calls Bob Kok but it's Bo Kok. DC, Andrea Hodel, Val Love, Francisco Bond. So last con day Andrew Miller, Herbie, Fulvia, Orlando, M Greiner, Daniel Dog Glover, Dawn McCarthy, Harry. Clark, Cappy, Nita, Andrew Beaver travels. with call, methinks and Sandra Clark. Thank you very much. Thank you to our production team. Devin, Roger, Reno, Anna, Vanessa, and Jesse Millwood.