Why Cornered Trump Is In Full Iran Denial Mode | The Daily Beast Podcast

The quiet part of Trump knows that this has been an abject failure. The lacking part of Trump and the denialism of Trump, which has been the cornerstone of his success. for his entire public life, is now what's kicked in. You've heard of five stage clinger. He's going to go into five stage denialism. He's going to triple down on this lie because he has no other choice. He can't get out of this situation and get the prices lower. in the United States and the straight semi opened, unless he does that.

And so this is a way worse deal. He'll tell people it's a way better deal and he'll live in that denialism. But down deep he knows that this is an abject failure. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. And oh my. Do we have a conversation for you today? But I think it's going to get you shouting at. whichever device you listen to the podcast on. It's Anthony Scaramucci used to work with Trump.

You know him well. He's a regular favorite of this podcast, being very provocative, really throwing down the gantlet to Democrats on this one and saying, come on, Trump is still winning the culture wars. He's still winning, guys. That's what he thinks. Yes, the price of gas is up at the pump. Yes, people don't like ice, but Trump. still has a kind of chokehold on the culture wars. And Anthony is worried that if Democrats don't step up,

the November elections are not going to be what I think. we're all assuming is, well, take back the house and maybe take back the Senate. It's a very provocative conversation. Stay tuned. Just want to remind you, please subscribe to The Daily Beast if you haven't. We're trying to get to 700,000 subscribers by the end of this month. I'm sorry, I'm slightly horse. I've been traveling, but I can assure you. this is a good conversation you will not want to miss.

Anthony Scaramucci, welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. Back again. You look, I've never seen you look this smart. Last time you came into the studio, you had a leather jacket. Oh, I'm playing my raw, I know I. the tie were the tie award. The white House press conference, by the way, ten years ago. But anyway. No I'm not is I'm playing. a role in a British television show.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to disclose it, but I have to go. do a little bit of acting, Joanna. But aren't we all? Isn't it? It wouldn't be. Acting for you. Isn't all the world of stage? Isn't all the world of stage? How are you, by the way? I'm all right. I'm actually back in the UK for my mom's funeral. But. But it's great to see you. Thank you. It's great to see you. And I'm so curious. We're just. We're recording this just after the UFC fight.

on the South Lawn of the white House. You and I have both spent time in the white House. It feels like a sacred space. And this felt like a massive intrusion. And I'm really curious, what are the conversations going on. by the people who are working with Trump right now about about the UFC, about the sort of coarseness that he has brought to American politics? Well, first, I vermis and not saying this.

So my condolences to your family. You know, I lost my dad a few years ago. So I know the pain of all this. And thank you. So my condolences to you and your family. Joanne, I would say on Trump that there's. a like Dickens would say there's a tale of Two cities. But when the music is off and people are talking. confidentially, there's a tale of one city. And so the two city tale is Trump is losing it. He's he's slightly deranged, and he's out there.

fighting this culture war to try to trigger the liberals. And he's trying to do certain desecrating things to the white House, number one, because he can. And number two, because he enjoys the reaction of so many. And then the the flip side of it is the other side of it, at least the public facing side is, you know, we're with him the whole way. and everything he does is a genius mode, 19 dimensional chess. And even though his approval ratings are down right now, he's.

the you know, he's opening the straight and there will be no tolls played. And he keeps saying nuclear dust, which I don't understand how 1,000. pounds of fissile material is dust, but that's a whole other topic. And so so those are the two sides. But when you get people unplugged and they want to talk to you openly, whether it's a congressman who I donate money to or it's a staff member, somebody that I work with on MAGA, one that's still part of MAGA two,

they're worried because, let's face it, I mean, there's news fast. The foreign leaders, they know this already. But the decision making in the American government is down to a committee of one. And so I can't say anything that's less American than that. If you looked at the process from the founding of the government. 250 years ago to the processes. that have been in place for the ensuing two and a half centuries.

So so that, to me is terrifying and on so many different levels. But it's a person now that has a very short attention span, who's very incurious, who's now faced with, you know, my podcast. colleague Katie K calls it Obama Derangement Syndrome. Okay. If you actually if you phrase it out. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's odious right. Odds but it's also odious. Oh that's very good. I like that okay. Yeah. So I can't take credit for that. That's a catty convention.

But but but I think that is the big dilemma now. because there's no way you can turn. the UK's on this deal with the Iranians any way that you want. The the colors still come up worse than the JCPoA. There's nothing he can do. Say he spent several hundred billion dollars prosecuting the war. He's exposed a seam of weakness in the American military doctrine. He's hurt our allies in the Gulf.

He's probably caused by our estimates here at SkyBridge, 700 to $800 billion of global. economic damage in terms of higher prices, less consumption, energy supply shock, ensuing inflation. You know, we started the year with likely three. Federal Reserve interest rate cuts. We now have the prospect of a potential rate increase. So that's 100 basis point or a 1% differential on borrowing costs.

That has a huge impact. on corporate America, consumer spending, credit card debt, etc.. So he's done a tremendous amount of damage. And then if you just look at what's in the memorandum of understanding, if he's releasing $24 billion of frozen assets. Well, that's let's do the math together. That's 12.8 times more. than what President Obama did when he and Fox News. and the others were roundly critical of the JCPoA. So.

So the bottom line is you've got a person. who is playing for the theatrics. If you're a culture warrior in the United States, he is winning the culture war. And that's I say that with great sadness because the Democrats don't. even understand the culture war. They're out there railing on the flyover, and they're railing on him. walking around with Dana White in the in the white House and the.

and the advertising, all the advertising and the display, which, you know, we can find it offensive to our minds, but then you're not really understanding America. And Joanna, you're a Brit. So I'm going to say it to you the way Americans get it, okay. We're talking about Merica. Do you know what America is? Go on. Okay. When somebody says Mirka, that's not an East Coast city, that's not New York City. That is the buckle of the Bible Belt that comes with hot dogs.

It comes with fast food. It comes with NASCAR. It comes with formula one. It comes with UFC fighting both male and female. It comes with tattoo parlors, okay? And it comes with a grittiness, a lot of staining on the uniforms of working class people. And so Trump gets that and people can dislike that,

or they can find a distaste for it, but they're going to lose. 80 to 90 million people. And what Trump did last night with the UFC is very important. He's going after low information voters, primarily male, and he's bringing them literally into the political theater. And those are the people that help carry him to the presidency last time. So so the real question before all of us is, was that just a night or was that a setup for a good November?

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one skin forward slash beast. And be sure to use the code beast at the checkout. After the purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them we sent you. Let me just ask you a couple of questions. First of all, on on the deal or no deal. Iran around Iran, does Donald Trump understand.

that this is a worse deal for America. then the GOP, then the Obama deal? Does he get that? Does he understand that he has surrendered here, Anthony? Or does he actually think it's a win? Okay. So really good question. So in his quiet moments in his mind, he understands. that this has been a disaster. He understands that. Does he actually understand. No question. No question.

Remember remember something I people always famously. say I was there for 11 days. I work for the guy for over a year. I was part of that 12 p.m., 11 p.m. to 12 p.m. phone call circuit. You know, he's a he's a lonely guy. You know, they show up for the UFC fight, but they don't live in the white House. with him. So he's a lonely guy sitting in that 132. room mansion calling his people. And he's on and he's not listening to them. He goes on a stream of consciousness rant to them on the phone.

as he calls the different people. Who's on the rotisserie now? Guys like Scott Bessette, Marco Rubio, Howard, Nick and I'll go through the rotisserie phone call, but but I been part of that. I know how his mind really works. And inside there, he knows that this was an athletic failure. Inside there. He knows that this was a play. He got overplayed by Benjamin Netanyahu. And when he was told by the military intelligence community.

not to do this, that they would induct the mosaic defense doctrine, which if you'd like me to explain that to your viewers and listeners and happy to. It's interesting. I was in Berlin last week speaking at a small dinner. It was probably a combined half $1 trillion of assets in the room. I asked people to raise their hand. if they knew what the Mosaic Defense Doctrine was. Nobody knew what it was. All right. She was totally explain it, explain it, explain it for it. And then. And then I want you to come back to the psychology of Trump,

understanding that this hasn't worked. This is part of that psychology. So the Defense Intelligence Agency, the CIA goes to the president, says, okay, listen, the Iranians have formulated. something that they call the mosaic defense doctrine. What is that? Well, they've studied us in Afghanistan, in Iraq, over a quarter century of. fighting, and they've studied the Mossad and the IDF. And they understand that there is a potential decapitation strategy.

that could happen politically, meaning some combination of the Americans. and the Israelis come in and try to remove our leadership. in an effort to create regime change or a revolutionary overthrow. And so what we're going to do is set ourselves up into 31 separate. and semi-autonomous units, and then we're going to have a ranking. And so if they kill the first 40 senior leaders, no problem.

We go to the number twos of each. Oh they kill those. No problem. We go to the threes and fours all the way down to the nines and tens. And so this way we'll be able to keep the regime going. no matter what the Israelis or the Americans try to do in. terms of predator drones, smartphone explosions, whatever they try to do to us. And so that got inducted immediately after the war happened. And and Trump was told that this was going to happen. But his response was, well, you know, I'm smarter than everybody.

My brain is bigger than yours. and would work for me in Venezuela is going to work for me here. And then he was searching for a secular leader that he could negotiate with. But this is a country that's been captured by fundamentalism for 47 years. So as those layers were getting removed, he was finding more. and more revolutionaries and less secularists, which was something he expressed in terms of his frustration. And so now you're here.

Second stage of the mosaic defense doctrine. is to control the Strait of Hormuz. And so because if you look at geography, they have a pressure. point there, more so than the Omanis or anybody else in the Gulf. And so they did the two things that are CIA and Dia said that they would do. And so Trump said that they wouldn't do that. because he's all knowing and that's his personality. So so again, the quiet part of Trump knows that this has been an abject failure.

The lacking part of Trump and the denialism of Trump, which has been the cornerstone of his success. for his entire public life, is now what's kicked in. And so he's putting out headlines. You know, the Hormuz Strait is open. There will be no tolls. This is an unconditional victory for the United States. The Iranians are putting out. Probably this is the irony of this, Joanna.

I never thought we'd be in a situation where we would trust the Iranian. missives and their communiques more so than the American ones, but the Iranians are putting out something that's actually more accurate. And of course, the president, if you notice, he's not tweeting about it. He's going to go into, you know, you've heard a five stage clinger, he's. going to go into five stage denialism, and he's going to triple down on this, and he's going to start saying things to people that are absolutely not true. But he's going to adhere to something that he firmly believes.

And he told this to Lesley Stahl in his 60 minutes interview long ago. I'm going to lie, I'm going to say it 100 times, and the more times. I say it, the higher the likelihood is that people are going to believe it. And he's also figured out. that a lot of his followers get their information directly from him. And there's a there's such an anti-establishment movement. in the country that when something happens to somebody. like Plattner in Maine.

and he's exposed for sexting or whatever the thing may be, the reaction from the American people is like, oh, that's the establishment hitting the guy because he's one of us. He's part of Merica. See what I mean? And so they discount the actual facts on the ground or the moral or. the various improprieties of the person. And they say, oh, that's the establishment picking on him because they're out to get all of us. Okay. Oh, and by the way, they've done it.

They've done it to Donald Trump. So that's what's going on. So he's going to triple down on this lie because he has no other choice. He can't get out of this situation and get the prices lower. in the United States and the straight semi opened unless he does that. And so this is a way worse deal. He'll tell people it's a way better deal and he'll live in that denialism. But down deep he knows that this is an abject failure. So what about Marco Rubio and Pete and all the people who are dealing with them?

And you mentioned Scott Besant and Howard Nick that, I mean, Scott Besant and Howard Nick must know. that this is a terrible deal for America, that this is far worse than. So how do you manage a man at the center of it. who, as you say deep down, knows that this is a. catastrophic deal for America in comparison to what it was? How are you supposed to manage someone like that?

And what do you think they should be doing? They're going to do what they're doing because. I was there, Joanne, and I think I've mentioned this to you. Okay. They have Potomac fever. Okay. So what is Potomac fever? Right. Thomas fever? Yeah. You cross the. You cross the river Potomac, and you're subsumed with your own significance. And you think you're the man or the woman. You're going to ride around in the presidential motorcade and fly on. Air Force One, and you've got all the cameras.

in front of you and the microphones. You know, you're the man, okay? And you're there to change the world, and you're going to change Washington. But, you know, Washington always changes you. And so they they've made that capitulation. And by the way, one of the great symptoms of Potomac. fever, Joanna, is you don't know you have Potomac fever. So you're sitting there and you're. remember you saying that you sitting there in your own delusion. So I had it. And so he knows that this is a terrible deal.

He's sitting there ready to vomit, that he's got to choke over. $24 billion of frozen assets to the Iranians. He knows that the that they're put over a barrel. He also knows that it's a it's been $1 billion a day that the Treasury. has been funding to foment the war, and the war has gone. on way longer than Benjamin Netanyahu said it was going to go on. And so they're they're sitting and they also know that this is a 60 day. MOU that converts.

into a binding agreement, but they don't have a timeline for that. because, you know, and I know just a little bit of a cursory journalism, you know, that there's no meat to any of it. There's no there's no semblance to whether there's going to be a toll. on the straight transaction fees, what's ultimately going to happen. But the thing that knows that other people don't know, that they should know, is that the golf has now been transformed.

for the worse as it relates to the United States of America. And so the golf countries, those Sunni countries sitting on the eastern side. of the Gulf, were frankly, paying the Americans for protection. And they were patronizing the Americans through capital investments. in the country, military subsidy on. those bases, low oil prices, etc. they were paying for the protection. And it low and behold,

it turned out that the protection wasn't what all of them thought. And they will likely backchannel now to the Iranians. And remember, the Saudis were doing that through the help of the Chinese. intermediaries with the Iranians a few short years ago. And so they'll probably back. channel and start hiding off a piece of that protection payment. that was going to the Americans and start giving it to the Iranians, because their attitude will be, okay, you got this straight. Here's some money.

Get the strait open for us. Okay. And so the great irony here. is always really sitting down with the president and briefing him. He would say, well, the outcome of this war, epic fury. You've put the Iranians in a way stronger position as a result of it. You didn't wipe out their military, though. You know, Trump. wants you to think those missiles and drones that are hitting. the Gulf countries are imaginary missiles and drones. He's he's put out 35 times that he's ended the war, and he's put out 40 times that he's wiped out their whole military.

Yet they still have a very capable military because they've been planning. this. They put much of their munitions underground or deep into these mountains. that were protected from the missile strikes. And so so if you were briefing the president right now, you'd say, okay, we are in a way, weaker position. The Gulf states are going to have to put a portion of their money towards Iran. You've turned us, ironically,

into a hemispheric power as opposed to a global power. And, you know, we better hope that we get our economic. supply lines straight in the Pacific, because if we get our economic. supply lines straight, will probably be okay. From that point of view. But if we don't get it straight, you know, you could see Taiwan. See, to Taiwan is effectively the Cuba of China. And they'll probably seed to the Chinese government.

at a great economic loss and hardship to the Americans and the rest of the West. And let me just say two less things quickly. It turns out that the TPP. was exactly what we needed at exactly that time. And just to remind people what that was, it was an 11 nation deal. with the Americans to be a free trade agreement, more or less, that would protect those nations from the behemoth China. and would put more pressure on China through the help of that trade. The president ripped it up,

has, you know, because I listened to him. and I, I actually still get emails from the Treasury. In many of his speeches, he talks about the idea. of having a trade agreement with nonaligned Asian countries. Excuse me, Mr. Secretary. We were doing that ten years ago. So so the great iron and point number two, the great irony is the TPP. is something we needed. Trump ripped it up. The JCPoA was a way better way to approach Iran.

Okay. And the strait was fully open, unfettered. We've now caused at least $2 trillion worth of economic damage to the world. And the Strait. It's inconclusive is whether or not it's going to be open. So so how do you reconcile all of that? But here's the problem, Joanna. The way I just articulated it to you, I have found no Democrat. that is articulating it to the American people. I found no Democrat that can cross over into Merica, that culture.

that I'm describing to you, and can reach the merchants. and tell them what is actually going on with the country. and how misguided President. Trump's policies and the implementation of them actually are. So when you say that, do you just feel that the Democrats. don't yet have candidates who have enough, could spur in a way. or have enough performance energy to take Trump on?

I mean, it should be fairly easy to say, this is a man who led us into a war, having campaigned on the fact that he was never going to lead us into a war. I mean, there seemed to be so many ways that you could get at him, not least that this is a war measured in the price at the pump. Everybody's feeling that. Anthony, what I would say to you is. the approval ratings are the tell. You know, if you look at the cross tabs on the approval ratings. and being generous to him, he's at 39% being ungenerous to him.

based on the way you asked the question, he's at 31 or 32%. So those are very low approval ratings. But when you then ask people about the Democrats, they don't have high approval ratings. They have very what I would describe as net negative approval ratings. And so I'm simply saying that there are a couple of things going on in the country. At the same time, there's an economic debacle.

I think the president is getting a thumbs down for that. There's a culture crisis. There's the woke versus the non woke America. And when you pull that, there's a very small percentage of the people. that want what we would describe as liberal woke ism. Most of the people don't want that. And so the president understands that, which is why he put out that advertising. After the trends gender athletes were performing in high school, maybe there were ten of them in a population.

of 330 million people, but he spent hundreds of millions of dollars. portraying that in the negative way that it was presented. That worked for him. The UFC fight is an emblem of that. You know, he he he he wants to provoke, agitate and trigger people. And he's he's doing a pretty good job of that. They don't get it, you know. And rather than fighting him differently, they want to fight him by doubling and tripling down on this stuff. You know, look, man, Danny is a very popular.

mayor in the city of New York, a place that I, you know, I go to. I go to my office every day. Very popular here. But is he the type of national figure that could carry the whole country? I don't think he I don't think he could. Those democratic socialist policies. This is not that type of a country. And so you tell me where they're going to line up. They treat Newsom like he's the second coming of Ronald Reagan. Like, yeah, he's a governor from California. But he's he's like writer than Ronald Reagan in the minds of these left leftist.

So so to me. Who are they going to field up against the Republicans. And so yes, they have negative ratings, negative. on the economy, but they win the culture war here, Joanna. And that's the irony of the thing. And I, I can't emphasize it enough to my feet, Uber intellectual elitists, okay, that are in the salons of the wealthy. on the Upper East Side here, or maybe down in Georgetown in Washington.

I'm like, guys, what are you doing? Okay, that's not the country that you're living in, okay? And you got to be very careful. These guys actually have the right trigger points on this country. And you could you could get these messages across, but. embrace those people rather than hating on them. And I'll just say this, Joanna, I can tell by the way I'm treated by certain people on the left. You know, I, I'm a centrist Republican. Always have been.

I was with Trump. I saw the evils of it. I left Trump, there's a group of people on the left that under. no circumstances will ever accept me in any way, shape or form. And that's fine. That's okay. You can do that as a free country, but you can't do that to 80 million people. Joanna. They voted for Trump. Okay? Bring them back into the tent. Stop the nonsense of sneering and pedantic looking down on them.

So I think you're raising something which is really interesting, that there seems to be an assumption that somehow the Democrats. are going to get the House back with a landslide. They may even get the Senate. Are you saying you don't think that's going to happen? Because I take your point that there's no national leader. yet of the Democratic Party. But there do appear to be popular local candidates. Okay. Well, I mean, let's talk about the gerrymandering for a second, okay. And again, you don't have to go by me. There was a New York Times article related to this.

You know, you have 25 seats that are in contest. And if you look at the map, you already know. who's going to win in the remaining 410 seats. So let's say the Democrats win every one of those. They will control the House okay. And you know, if you look at the prediction markets, they're giving an 82.5% probability. that the Democrats will control the House.

But I'm just I'm just saying to you that the gerrymandering. has almost taken the contest out of the races. And so it's it's way closer than people think. is all I'm saying, because a couple things could could break. the Republicans way between now and November. Maybe prices of oil will come down, maybe something else will happen. Maybe it'll be up, up the ante in the culture war. I wouldn't be sitting here, you know, 120, 150 days out.

from the election and think I've got this and being complacent about it. You know, again, you know, the rise of Trump is concomitant. with the failure of Democratic candidates to understand and address Trump. There was only one that was able to do that. That was a mediocre elderly candidate during Covid. who was able to beat Trump because they went with what they saw.

as a saying grandfather over the crazy uncle during a pandemic. But they returned to the crazy uncle. Okay. When the when the when the same grandfather looked like he was sunsetting. And so they picked the older sister to come in. to replace these the same grandfather they said, we don't like the older sister. We're going to go we're going to go back to the crazy uncle. Okay. So now who are the Democrats going to put up? And again, I'm not saying Trump is on the ballot, but his messages.

and the cause of populism in the country are on the ballot. And here's the irony. Trump has done nothing to help these people. Their economic plight has actually gotten worse. But they are adhering to him because he represents their anger. Joanna. So who is it on the Democratic side that can relate to those people. and can say, hey, you know why you were with Trump and all is forgiven. and you got to forgive us to come back to us.

You know, your grandparents. voted for Kennedy or Johnson or great grandparents voted for Roosevelt. But, Anthony, do you not think that people see the rising price at the gas pump? Do you think that they're not moved. by the deaths in Minneapolis of Rene Nicole good. And Alex Brett, do you not think that they feel for. their brown neighbors who are terrified of getting picked up by ice? Do you not think there's been a ripple effect from Trump to. that has alarmed Americans who feel like,

you know what, this actually isn't our country. And I totally take your point about Democrats patronizing maraca as, as you call it, or the flyover states, as others call it, but you don't think that people just feel in their pocketbooks. This hasn't been good for them, that they didn't. want a war with Iran, and that Trump has somehow finagled it. You don't think people see that? I think people see it. But it comes down to the way. those congressional districts are constructed.

And, you know, if you look at that article in the New York Times, you have 181 seats that lean hard Republicans. Okay. So you're already you're already got a pretty big base, even if. there are people in those districts that agree. with everything that you just said, they're being overwhelmed. due to the way the district has been cut with enough Republican support. So yes. No, I absolutely see it. I'll say it differently to you.

Are you in a real democracy, Joanna, if the politicians are picking the voters, you know, I said that at the Scott Galloway event the other night, the the voters should be picking the politicians, right. But under gerrymandering, the politicians are actually picking the voters. So everything that you just said, if. those congressional districts were set up and they look like the geometric shapes. that you and I would have recognized from ninth grade geometry. are the ones the way they looked when I was a kid.

Then the the house would overwhelmingly go to the Democrats. Okay. He would still have they would still have a tough time in the Senate. because the lesser populated states that are red. have two senators apiece, which is the equivalent to the blue. states of New York and California, you know, which are proportionately way. higher populated. They also only have to I mean, think about the genius of the Dakotas. You have North and South Dakota that have a combined.

population just over the island of Manhattan. Okay. And they have four senators representing those two states. Okay. That's the tyranny of the minority. Johanna. So everything that you just said. Yes. Okay. Let me, let me, let me reframe it and repository for your viewers and listeners. But do you know. but but do you not think that people in the Dakotas. are feeling the price at the pump? I get what you're saying about the district and the German. And there's two they're not going to.

they're not going to vote Democrat in those states they're overwhelmed with. They're just never going to vote, never going to do it. Do you think they'll just sit at home? Yeah, they're Christian conservatives. There's like New York and California that are one party systems. They're by and large one party systems out there, and they'll generate four red senators come hell or high water. But again, I want you to think about it, Joanna. You have 40% of the people are registered now as independents.

That's way more than Democrats and Republicans. And then number two are Democrats. So the Republicans have the least number of acknowledged registered voters, yet they control the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court, and the American presidency. So you don't think the Democrats have. they've been playing a different game than the Republicans. Republicans have understood how to exercise the tyranny of the minority.

You see, the founders were worried about the tyranny of the majority, which is why they empowered each state with two senators. They created an electoral college, etc.. So the Republicans looked at that and said, oh, okay, I got this. We they're trying to protect you against the tyranny of the majority. We're going to execute a strategy that puts the minority in power. And they've been very, very successful at that. And the fact that the Democrats don't understand it, like if you bring up. operation Red map to the Democrats and they don't even understand it,

these guys funded all of these local races to flip state assemblies. and state senators over to the Republicans so that they control the map. Okay. And they've been very, very successful at doing that. And so so, guys, I don't know, you're you're not it's not enough. Everything you just said, Joanna, which I totally agree with. And I have been an outspoken critic of Donald Trump.

And I fear for our society, our culture. and our constitutional process because of people like Trump. Everything you just said. So I'm with you the whole way. But the response to it has been lackluster, and the advocacy of the other side in terms of dealing with. and bringing over the current MAGA. voter and making that current MAGA voter, a former MAGA voter, a d cultivation, if you will, a deprogramming.

That's not that's not happening. These people are looking at those people and they're ready to write them off. Joanna. But Anthony, that we know that lots of people in America, as you call it, you know, there were Obama voters there, people, you know, we were told, oh, America will never, never fait in as president a black guy. And yet they did. And yet millions of Obama voters also voted for Trump. I mean, that is the sort of charismatic leadership.

that wins over people, regardless. of gerrymandering and red stating places. I mean, someone who speaks in a bigger way, I don't I don't see it that way, you know, and I respect your opinion, but I don't see it that way. What happened here is you. put up a leader in 2016, you know, very nice person. Secretary of State Clinton, very articulate, likely would have made. a great American president, but she didn't do the campaign work.

Okay. And so I'm saying to you that Trump's. rise is concomitant with the failure of the Democrats. to nominate people that were just middle of the road people. Biden was a middle of the road person beating a sitting president. He beat an incumbent President Trump. But do you think he would have beaten him again? I don't think Biden, in the state that we saw him in.

June of 2024, could have beaten down during the debate? I do not think so. I think. I think if they had another debate, it would have been equally disastrous, and I think Biden would. have gotten knocked off the stage and there would have been way more. consequential damage down ballot. Okay. So they had to seek his removal. You could question whether or not they should have went to a mini. primary process, like President Obama was suggesting,

or just going with the vice president. We can debate that, but it's over now. I'm just saying Trump's rise is concomitant. with the Democrats picking people that weren't. capable of handling and or dealing with Trump and had president, excuse me, had Secretary Clinton dealt with candidate Trump, call him candidate Trump, not president at the time. more seriously and said, okay, we're in the fight of our lives.

I'm going to go to Trump, went to Wisconsin 14 times. I went no times. Trump went to Pennsylvania 22 times. I went one time. You know why we're not going to do that? We're going to work as hard as he is in those areas to bring out the vote. And if you remember the polling, okay, it's nine years ago, but there was a seven point premium on Secretary Clinton the whole way. until the end. Joanna. And they overly relied on that. They were overconfident and and they missed the mark.

And so his rise is a direct result. of their failure to select candidates that could take him on. And that's all it is. He is not the boogeyman, okay? He's not a popular figure. Okay. He is a lesser of two evil figures in this country. A lot of people on Wall Street, my buds. Okay, they voted for the guy in 2024. They saw him as pro-business, lesser of two evils.

A lot of people in the Midwest, they held their nose. to his Piccadilly and his corruption and his self-dealing. They saw him as the lesser of two evils. I just think this has to be a way. I don't think the Democrats hold on. Let me say, are there any Democrats out there? You get what I'm trying to say. No you don't. Actually, that's the problem. I think there are a lot of Democrats. shouting at you, Anthony, saying, what about J.B. Pritzker?

What about Mark Kelly? There are also what about Wes Moore? What about Gretchen Whitmer? What about Gavin Newsom? What about definitely about them going out. Johanna, let me put it back to you. It's your show. Those people, they have the star, they don't have the star power, and they don't have the television similarity that Trump had. But Trump is a kind of a once in a lifetime guy. You can't seriously be saying that you think that JD. Vance has the charisma to take over from Donald Trump, or that Marco.

Rubio does have said for the last year that it won't be JD Vance. Trump is doing everything he can to eviscerate Vance. Okay? He'll fire Rubio before the terms out to embarrass and disgrace Rubio, which will have its own set of consequences. You know, the good thing for the Democrats is Trump is a total nihilist. He'll do everything he can to destroy those guys because he's such a narcissist. He doesn't want anybody to succeed him. He wants to be the guy. And so he'll almost be happier of a Newsom succeeds him.

So he could be like, hey man, you Republicans were nothing. before I got here, and you're nothing again, okay? But no, those people do not have the star power. Those people that you're describing. Remember, this is not a hiring process. Shapiro is an incredibly competent guy, would make a phenomenal president if he got the job. But he's got to get the job, Joanne. And this is a but they're not they're not running against Donald Trump. And you said I understand that.

But they don't get this. He's a nihilist. They don't get the culture though. That's my point. They're not running against Trump. But you should get them on your show. And you should say, what of the 80 million people that voted for Donald Trump? What is the strategy to get them back in the tent and see what they say? Okay. It's a fair point. So so Anthony, final question then. Yeah. What are your buds, as you call them on Wall Street saying about this.

And you say that lots of them voted for Trump is anti regulation. He's pro-business, which Joe Biden certainly didn't feel like. he was pro-business. And a lot of the Democrats don't. What do they need to vote Democrat? I think they would need a moderate Democratic leader. Right. I think they would need a I'll use something a really date myself. They would need a DLC. You remember the Democratic Leadership Council? This was a moderate, pro-business council of the.

of the Bill Clinton's and the Bob Rubens. Okay. They would need that. The woke ism, the wealth taxes, the confiscation of their wealth. They're not they're not up for that. Okay. Now now, I would also stipulate that I think a lot of these guys are making a mistake. I would take Jensen Wong's approach. I'm a New Yorker. I pay my taxes, never complain about my taxes. I made the money here in this beautiful city and I'm staying here.

I don't even have any property outside of New York. But a lot of these guys don't think like that. But they should start thinking like that because you don't want to be in a have. and have not society. You know, you're you're pulling away from people now. in a very robber baron like way, like what was happening in the 1890s. And we got very lucky. You had McKinley and Roosevelt and others. that broke up the trust and built a platform for the middle class.

We have apathetic politicians that don't want to do that now. And you, you're running a risk as a super wealthy person. that you'll get some form of socialism or some form of creeping communism. Actually, this is the irony of it. You should pay your taxes, and you should focus on educating these people. and giving them some, some platform of equal opportunity. But nobody's talking about that. So what the Democrats are saying, hey, we're social Democrats, were democratic socialists, blah blah.

That's going to be very it's going to be very dangerous for the society. that that's all I'm saying. And so my, my, my Wall Street bro's are going. to vote Republican because of that. And to me, you know, listen, I don't know. I'm upset about it because I grew up as a blue collar kid. thinking I was going to be successful. And I'm looking at those people today and I'm saying, yeah, it's. going to be way, way harder. It's not a glass ceiling, Joanna. It's a concrete ceiling. It's going to be way harder for those people.

And and it doesn't have to be in a wealthy country like this. Do not. look out and see any Democrat that you think could pull this off. No, actually don't. So if you if you can help me find one, I'd love to have the conversation with them. You know, I think Newsom, ironically, has the best chance. because he is. physically ready for prime time. television and he's verbally dexterous.

I saw him destroy Ron DeSantis in a debate on Fox News. And, you know, he's a white male, okay. Which, you know, people going to be mad at me, I guess, because it's not politically correct. to say this, but I think the Democrats probably need a dose of that right now. And so, yeah, I think he could pull it off, but he's got to get the nomination in a very fractious party, you know, and, you know, he's got to also go up against the bad. branding that the right is fixed on California,

where I think that's ironic as California is the fourth largest economy, if you pull it out of the United States and it's got so many different. great things going on in it from Silicon Valley all the way down. to Hollywood and agriculture, defense spending. It's just it's just an incredible place. Does it have pockets of problems in terms of its urban economics, etc.? Sure. But if he could overcome that, could he beat any of those Republicans that they would field? Yes. I think Gavin is probably the most likely person to pull it off.

What about you? Anthony? What about you? Joanna, there's no place for me to run. First of all, the Democrats would never accept me because I was once with Trump. There's 20% of them that want to put my head on a spike. You know? I mean, trust me, I'm very well aware of that. And the Republicans, you know, to quote my older son, my son's like, dad, you've ruined my networking opportunities. I'm like, why is that? Well, the Republicans hate you. You left Trump, okay? And the Democrats hate you because you were with Trump. So, you know, you put me in no where's land.

And he sort of right about that. But the messaging there is I'm searching for the truth like everybody else. But there's no place to run for a person like me. You know, you would have to see more of a cremation of the society. and annihilation of the society where people were like, okay, we're going to break the totems of this two party system, this cartel, this duopoly that's existed for the last 50 years. We're going to have to break the duopoly to get a sensible person.

And then I, I wouldn't pick pick me for that. I would pick somebody like Jamie Dimon. But I'm just saying you don't have the. the structure of these parties is not set up to get the mic. You know, the executive style leadership of Mike Bloomberg or somebody thoughtful. that's going to be less focused on the ideology in place right now. Joanna, I just don't see it. If you see that, you let me know. You send me the memo, Joanna. Maybe you'll see it differently.

To me, you're a little bit like a the Tocqueville in America. You'll you may see it before I. In my dreams. In my dreams. Anthony, I will say that lots of people, including I'm sure Jamie Dimon, want him to run. And yet people don't think he can get elected. He's not well enough known. And to your point, the thing about Trump having star. power is that he had 14 seasons of a television show, and it's almost impossible to find anybody that has that presence. except for perhaps Gavin Newsom, because he's had exposure, because he's.

had a sense of fun going up against Trump, because he seems fearless against Trump. And there are lots of people. that still seem very frightened of Trump, even Democrats. Yeah, I think as well said. I think I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying. Okay. Well, Anthony, it's always good to have you on the podcast. I can hear people shouting at you. I can hear them. Yeah, well, I want them to be married. I want them to be mad at me because I want to provoke them. Guys, wake up.

You're you're one of your jobs and Mission impossible. This podcast is going to self-destruct in five seconds. But one of your jobs and Mission Impossible bring over. some of the 80 million people that voted for Trump. Okay, hold your nose and figure it out. And I think what Democrats should be doing is not talking about taxing people more. It should be about more economic opportunities. That's what people want. Wealthy people don't want to be taxed more. I'm not wealthy and I don't want to be taxed more. I don't mind being taxed, but I don't want to be taxed more.

But I do think we should have better economic opportunities for people, and that's what Democrats should be leaning into anyway. Anthony, it's always fun to see you. I'm excited to hear about your role in this. Is it a drama that you're going off to? Yeah. You said you were taking part in a television show. I mean, I do, I how do I look? Am I right? You look fantastic. You always look fantastic. You look particularly smart, you know, particularly smart.

Remember, I'm an actor now, so I need to have my self-esteem built up. You? No. Prior to getting on stage, Anthony Scaramucci, you do not need your self-esteem built up. You do not. Okay. I appreciate that, Joanna. Thank you. I'm 100% confident about my friend. Anyway, it's very good to see you. And perhaps you'll run for mayor. Maybe you should run for mayor of New York City. You talk about the city. You love it. We got. We got plenty of time for all that stuff. We got plenty of time. We never have enough time. Anthony. It's always good to see you.

And we will see you again soon. Looking forward to it, Joanna. Thank you. Okay, so we cannot complain. The mooch doesn't come to play. He really does. What? Provocative opinions. I want to know what you think. Please hit our comments with what you think. Is he right? Should the Democrats take the midterms for granted? Has the gerrymandering basically baked. in a Republican grip on this nation? Has Trump won the culture war?

And I'm still wondering, has Trump won the Epstein files? So join us again tomorrow for Inside Trump's head. And as always, thank you for joining us. If you have been a big thanks to our production team, John. Romero, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passa, Heather Pesaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.