Why Andrew's Epstein Fall Has Only Begun: Author | The Daily Beast Podcast

So Andrew basically has been thrown under the bus. And of course, if some of the obscene material gets released, as we hope, I think that's going to open up a whole new can of worms. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. And close followers may remember that eight weeks ago. we had on the author, Andrew Loney, to talk about his book. entitled The Rise and the fall of the House of York. How little did Andrew know? Quite what impact that book would have?

Last week saw the King stripping Prince Andrew of his royal titles. and banishing him from the 30 room. Royal Lodge to a much smaller farmhouse. in a corner of godforsaken Norfolk, which is rainy and windy on the Sandringham Estate. Though there is very good grouse shooting. Just pointing that out. But I've spent a lot of time in Norfolk, so I happen to know that the weather there is frequently gray. Anyway, of course, there was also then the follow.

on publication of Virginia Giuffre is book Nobody's Girl. But what this is all amounting to is the adjacency. and indeed the friendship and the lying about the friendship. with none other than Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. So no time to waste. Let's get into it with Andrew Loney and talk about his role. in stripping Prince Andrew of his royal titles.

Andrew Loney, welcome back. Last time I'm very pleased to say we had you on the podcast. on the day of the release of your book entitled, subtitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York. and the fall has continued since the publication of your book. and of course, the publication of Nobody's Fool by Virginia Giuffre. Can you bring us up to date.

with what on earth is happening with Andrew, formerly known as Prince? Well, I mean, he's been sent, in effect, into exile, exile in Britain. So he, I mean, finally, that the palace have got to grips with this scandal. They're actually trying to get ahead of it. They realized that public opinion was way ahead of them, that the public was. very concerned about all the information that was coming out. And as you say, the Virginia Giuffre book, I think it really surpassed.

lies and humanized the story. But we'd had a whole series of leaks, showing. that his links with Epstein went on for much longer than he claimed. He was basically lying. And that's true of Sarah Ferguson as well. So the king felt needs to act. I mean, people were asking. bigger questions now about the monarchy, its purpose, its finances. And, they kind of wanted to shut that story down. So Andrew basically has been thrown under the bus to save the rest of them. And so he at the moment, he's going to Sandringham, the royal estate,

which is a private estate. It's not Crown Estate property. So therefore nothing to do. The taxpayer, his wife, who who, claimed to be very loyal to him, is. now become less loyal since he's no longer a prince and living in Royal Lodge. And is going off to Portugal or Switzerland. He may well end up going to the Middle East because, there are also calls. for him to be investigated for his sexual and financial crimes. And that's coming from the former head of royal security.

from a former chief prosecutor in Britain. And so I don't think the story's over for him. And that's why the royal family are so keen to distance themself from him. So there's a good chance he may end up actually going physically. abroad, into exile, to somewhere where there isn't an extradition treaty. Well, I mean, this is such an extraordinary development, isn't it? Because when you came on in September, you were talking about your biggest hope. was that they would be somehow pulled off the public.

financial role, so they were no longer supported. It is this much wilder than you could have imagined. Oh, absolutely. The whole thing is so, you know, was the perfect storm. But there was clearly. a deep public resentment about the way some of the royals, particularly. these two, it operated. And that kind of emerged. And I think you know, particularly scene, there was a recent. appearance of them at a funeral where people felt. they were pretty shameless and tried to sort of grandstand it. And that, I think, was another factor. But it's this could have been underlying sort of concern about how elites.

have operated in their own interests, taking advantage of other people. And I think it plays into that sort of trope at the moment. But yeah, I never expected this reaction. Congratulations. And as many people say, you couldn't be more of the establishment. You're a Cambridge educated historian, and here you are, now really causing some serious movement within the establishment. So can you just talk us through what Andrew is alleged to have done.

and why it might be that he can't just stay in exile in the UK, but he actually has to move to a country with no extradition order. What is it actually, that he's most likely, do you think, to be accused of? And then let's talk about people that used to work for him. now beginning to tell on him, as it were. Yeah. Well, I'm getting I'm getting it, you know, 2 or 3 people a day coming forward. Quite senior people, former protection officers and and staff, people who I think.

want to get on the right side of history or don't feel I feel more emboldened. I think the most likely charge is malfeasance in public office. or misconduct in public office, which carries life imprisonment. And the two, I suppose, elements to this one is recently in, leaked HTML. It was shown that he had tried to get a public official, his PPO, to investigate, Giuffre and indeed smear her. So that's one element. Can you just remind Americans what a PPO is?

So I ppo a police protection officer. So these are the close protection officers around him. So someone who would have known him very well, but is paid. for by the taxpayer, reports the Metropolitan Police. I think there's other things. I mean, he was looked at 20 years ago by the National Crime. Agency will certainly in piece called for it. And this is for his time as a special trade envoy, where he basically was lining his own pockets. Those things, I think, would be grounds. for investigation and I think for charges to be brought on. In the past, no one has really dead go there.

For a member of the royal family. The Mets sort of skirted some of this stuff through the stuff. around sex trafficking. Met being the Metropolitan Police. Sorry, I need to have a little dictionary with me. And, so the Metro police. looked at some of the sex allegations and said there was nothing to see. Well, the office for, basically scrutinizing the police for independent. policing has now come forward and said, look, you need to look at this properly. I mean, I found even when I put in, a freedom information request,

they wouldn't even tell me whether they investigated Andrew or not. So, we've got that. We've got a private prosecution be launched by Republic, the anti-monarchist group. We have the former head of royal security, and the former is a head of, of, for the prosecution service for the north of England saying the grants. for him to be, possibly charged so that there is a groundswell. And I think public opinion still feels he hasn't been held to account properly.

The only thing that's changed is he's moved house and he's no longer Prince. He hasn't really had to explain himself. And we've now got the Senate Oversight Committee. wanting him to give testimony, if necessary, by zoom. We've got people calling for him again to talk to the FBI, to talk to the lawyers, to the lawyers of the victims. So there's a groundswell of opinion that that is really pushing. And the royal family were sort of behind all this. They thought they had seize initiative last Thursday. by getting rid of the titles, getting him out of Royal Lodge.

But I think there's still they still haven't gone far enough. I mean, there was something so sinister about one of the emails. that got released, I think as as part of the, email dump from the. oversight committee, which had him saying, several months after he'd said. that he'd cut off his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, we're on the same side. Don't worry. Looking forward to playing together again soon. Is there a suggestion that he slept with.

more of Jeffrey Epstein's, network of young women than just Virginia Giuffre? So, yes, of course, there are lots of woman, who connected with him. There were several interviewed, at, during some of the legal cases who pleaded the Fifth Amendment. There's a woman who has now emerged in the Mail on Sunday here. Paper has written about her without identifying her as a victim. I've certainly come across a woman who, I think was sex traffic to him.

And actually, one of the other interesting things is Andrew was passing. some of his girlfriends to Epstein, and one of them, who later married a very rich banker. I think many more names are emerge, many more victims, I think now feel. confident of coming forward. We're going to see more leaks from, I think, some of these legal depositions. And of course, if some of the Epstein material gets released, as we hope, I think that's going to open up a whole new can of worms. The irony is that in many ways, the accusations against Andrew were always hiding in plain sight.

I mean, his tabloid nickname. and the way he was referred to by the British reporters was this Randy? Andy, you have in your book, a riveting chapter about. how he behaved sometimes when he went on royal tours. For those who haven't read the book, can you recount his weekend in Thailand? Yes. Well, one of the episodes, I think, is 2004, where he goes. to the King of Thailand, the celebrations paid for by the taxpayer.

And this is material, this is source material. So Ian Proud, a diplomat who's actually subsequently written more about this. It was one of my sources. Another is a man called Andrew MacGregor. Marshall, who's the Reuters correspondent there, and I, a member of the Thai royal family. And they also, Andrew, insisted on going to this very expensive hotel. because he'd like the nightclub in the at the basement. He didn't go to see this in the residence of the ambassador. And in the course of four days, he,

basically had 40 prostitutes brought to him. He was swapping them with an Arab prince who was also in the hotel. And he even went on a trip to Chiang Mai. with, his half Thai mistress, Sonja Cooling. So, I mean, he was very open about it. I think the whole point about Andrew's activities is he didn't operate alone. He was enabled and protected by, his staff, by diplomats, civil servants, by the palace. So, I mean, they've changed the tune now, and they clearly kind of want to to to,

expose him. But know this wouldn't have happened without all these people supporting him. And I think that's what's so extraordinary. I got a story this morning about him in Hong Kong, where he took. the whole floor of the Landmark Hotel and was entertaining prostitutes there. I've got stories of him being paid to open golf courses, and one of his requests was 16 year old blonds. There's a story I tell in the book of, the from the a constant in South Africa. where his private secretary asked it said, there we have.

he here's a list of requirements. He only drinks, water at room temperature. He liked sweet fabrics for breakfast. And by the way, he likes blonds. And the diplomat replied, I'm a diplomat. I'm not a pimp. I remember that quote from the book. It's pretty. Brazen. Yeah, incredibly brazen and amazing that it's taken until now. And also, you have had personally issues reporting this book, correct? Yes. I mean, you know, the we had some legal letters from, Sarah Ferguson,

the attempts to intimidate me saying that monitoring my social media, Foreign Office told diplomats not to talk to me. We've had various papers, like Vanity Fair. actually interview me and then not run the story. We've I've had, my social media people have had to cut the comments. because there was a whole campaign of critical comments. I've had stories spread about me that I've wanted. young, white, escorts underage escorts.

Right. I mean, they were trying to slime you in the way it turns out. He was trying to get his protection officers to slime Virginia Giuffre. Absolutely. And in fact, I think I report in the book. on how a PR firm was brought in to, to to go after Giuffre. And that's what I'm told. They're done with me. So there's a sort of concerted campaign to undermine. anyone who is trying to tell the truth about this story. So what on earth was Sarah Ferguson making of all this?

Because she must have known. that he was spending weekends roaring through 40 prostitutes. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein is said to have had, an insatiable appetite and. needed to have at least three massages with a happy ending every day. Not a happy ending for the girls delivering them, of course, but the idea of getting through 40 prostitutes. over a weekend, I mean, I mean, it's sort of imagination boggles. But what do we think that Sarah Ferguson.

and his daughters knew of this behavior? Well, that's a good question. I mean, Sarah Ferguson has stayed, on a regular basis in Epstein's home. She must have noticed it was pretty unusual. Sort of things going on there. Actually, there are more numbers, actually, for Sarah Ferguson in the little black book than for Andrew. So, you know, I think she knows a lot more. She should be a material witness for the FBI. I think,

you know, Sarah was was with him often when and, and the children. when they were introduced to Diddy and, and Peter Nygaard. and all these people who subsequently been charged with sexual assault. So, you know, there's a famous picture, Petra's Pinterest, Beatrice's 18th birthday party. with Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. as sort of some of one of the most important guests. So this was a world that they were operating in the whole time. And I think the daughters were taken once Epstein come out of prison,

I mean, it was like a special trip to sort of celebrate with Epstein. So they must have been aware of what was going on. But that they were prepared to do that and introduce their children. to a sex offender because they were so in need of his money. Yes. And I think, you know, there were sort of double standards. going on because on one side, as Sarah Ferguson was, was supporting. sex trafficking or against sex trafficking charities, rather, and a children's writer. And at the same time here she was quite happy to, to, to mix to stay at the home.

of a convicted pedophile. And. you know, I, you know, I just think that there was a certain. hypocrisy about the way they behaved, but partly because they wanted money. And I think in the end, they didn't really care. It wasn't something that worried them. I think Sarah Ferguson a must have known a lot of this stuff. There were times when actually Andrew cut short family holidays. in order to go to Little Saint James, and spend time with with Epstein.

So how is Prince Andrew going to manage for money? He's been turfed out of Royal Lodge, which he played a peppercorn rent for, which was literally two peppercorns, I believe. He's going to live on the Sandringham Estate. How does he manage for money? I don't think Andrew has any problems with money. I mean, he's inherited money from the Queen mother, I think probably from the Queen. He, has made money from various business activities, and we know from looking at his accounts and that moneys were transferred.

There was all the, the, business he was doing in China with the alleged Chinese spy. Ten. We know that he's been doing business. in the Middle East, often paid in gifts rather than the money. She doesn't have to pay any rent at all now. He's just basically been housed by his brother. He's going to be given allowance by his brother. He's been given at least 500,000 pounds, six, $700,000. to, pay as part of this repairing lease. I've been told he's actually being paid millions of pounds to move.

That was the incentive to go. So I don't think there's any problem with that money. This idea that the pause is ridiculous. Okay, so how bad is this for the British royal family? We have King Charles, who's got cancer. We have Prince William sort of limbering up. to take over at some point, though it's unclear when. Obviously. How bad is this for them? Well, I think it was very bad until Thursday.

I thought I publicly said. I think this was the most dangerous moment for them until since the abdication. I think they've they've seized initiative since then by being pretty ruthless. They've won a lot of respect for that. William, I think, understood the problem. I think possibly Camilla and Kate as well. And so I think what they've done is, is gone down. very well with the public, who 90% were pretty appalled by Andrew's behavior. But I think what it's done is it's now raised wider questions, which are questions the Royal family don't really want to, to, to to respond to,

which is about, a royal privilege and accountability. So people are now asking questions about people in grace and favor houses. who are not working royals. who whether they're paying market rent or are basically being given. pretty cheap accommodation, which is the case with Andrew and his. and we found was repeated repeatedly with other members of the family. So, for example, the two daughters have the flats. or cottages at Saint James's Palace and Kensington Palace.

And no one knows because they're not working royals. Why, they should have them. Those are Andrew and Fergie's daughters. Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. Yes. Sorry. So? So, the the York daughters, Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. have, accommodation in, royal palaces. Those are not working royals. And I think people are asking questions about that. There were calls as a go for a royal register, like a parliamentary register where people would register their business interests.

And this is true of some of the people on the periphery of the royal family. People like Zara, Phillips, Mike Tindall, Peter Phillips. So these are children of, Princess Anne, and the husband and the husband. So there's there's a sense that we need that we want more power with people. calling for more parliamentary accountability. The rules were that. MPs were never allowed to question anything about the royal family. I think people are trying to change that. They were exempt under the Freedom of Information Act.

Their attempts to get those exemptions, changed so that they can be asked questions. And we also have the question of royal wills, which are sealed, which would reveal how money is passed down from generation to generation. And one can understand that perhaps within the, direct line. of succession, but in many very obscure. minor roles are protected. And I think people want a little bit more, openness about the two very rich estates that,

the Duchy of Cornwall, which is run by the Prince of Wales. and Duchy of Lancaster, which is run by, the King. They're making huge sums of money from them, and often. taking advantage, for example, charging parking in hospitals, which people feel is, is not really very, suitable for them. There was a sort of the way they have their money is called the sovereign Grant, and they've been given it a percentage of basically the income's coming in, to some of these estates, but they're making a lot of money,

particularly from windfarms on the seabed around Britain, because they, own the seabed immediately around the perimeter. So people have just been in there making a lot of money. We don't know how they're making the money. They're not paying taxes. A lot of these estates, there are a lot of very shady, trusts. which are paying, money, for example, the sale of Andrew's, wedding gift house, Sunninghill Park, which was bought by the son.

in law of the president of Kazakhstan, someone he was doing business with. They paid, a 3 million pounds over the asking price, even though there'd be no interest in the property for a period of five years. So there are lots and lots of questions being asked. which the royal family would prefer not to have to answer. So, Andrew, a serious question. Do you think the British royal family actually survives? Yeah, I think they'll survive, but I think they'll only survive if they adapt. They're very good at doing that. They they did that when there was a public outcry. after Diana's death that there needed to be more sort of, a response to that.

So the Queen did a. broadcast, flags were lowered and they they got through that crisis. They'll get through this crisis. But I think increasingly, there's a sense that they've become less and less relevant. The few of them to do the jobs now or with, with Andrew. out of the way, Harry, Meghan out of the way. So I think we're going to move to this much more slimmed down monarchy, a much more European style, just the direct line of succession. I think we have got a precedent for people losing their titles.

So I suspect Harry, Meghan, Beatrice and Eugenie and all these people. will have their titles taken away at some point because they're not working. Royals. And I think the focus will be more on good works than on pomp and ceremony. I mean, I understand that they're reducing the number of working royals, but one of the things that. seem to be a statistic, which we've talked about on the podcast. before, is that 1 in 6 British people have met a member of the royal family, and there's no doubt that if you do meet one of them, especially at an event,

if they're opening a new factory or they've turned up at some charity event. that people tend to warm towards them. So isn't it a sort of vicious circle that if you have fewer working members. of the royal family, fewer members of the public meet them and there's fewer people to support them? Well, I think the problem is, is the cost to people get very concerned about supporting them. If they were all working royals, then that would be one thing. But in London don't want to be working royals. And I mean, Princess Anne's children, she didn't want to have titles.

and they had their own careers. I think that'll happen with Prince Edward. So we're actually left with not many of them wanting to do. the job in the first place. And I. think we just have to accept that, you know, we're not going to meet so many. You know, sometimes as many people are going to meet the royals. and the the jobs that they used to do will have to be done by what are called. deputy lieutenants, who are their representatives in each of the counties. But I think also a recent research has shown that. actually the royals don't necessarily raise more depending on the royal,

but they don't necessarily add to the coffers of charities. And actually they can with, for example, Andrew and Sarah be counterproductive. So I think there's a new new thinking about about the role they play. Well, I live by Buckingham Palace. And often have to cross an James's Park when there are events going on. And certainly, for example, the big events. like Trooping the Color, a color which used to have a lots of, British people there, my experience is, is actually filled just with tourists. So there's a sort of curiosity value about the royal family.

But I think most of us kind of, kind of see them as a slight irrelevance. So I mean, you know, there's definitely a role there, but I think the younger generation are less interested. So you think Prince William will be a much more modern. European style, possibly bicycling royal? Yes. I mean, I think William does. want to, to sort of make it a more low key, thing. I mean, he, he, he wants to to get the balance, particularly now with his family. Right. So he does need his father for elements of family as a sort of workaholics.

And everyone respects him for that. But there's been it's been very damaging to their own family lives. And I think William's very keen. to get that balance right for himself and for all the members of the family. I, I don't think he's going to be more open than the others. I think he's actually more secretive than his father. So the transparency a lot of people are calling for, I think, may take some time, but, you know, they may adapt to the fact is. that, you know, there is pressure on them now to be more transparent. And they may just,

for their own sake, survival except the need to make concessions. Andrew, what do you know about, Prince Andrew's relationship with Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? Because we've also got pictures of them together. Well, Donald Trump claims not to not to have met Andrew, though. There's there's plenty of photographic evidence. I mean, they were close. They had the same interest in women and golf and making money. And they. certainly got lots of testimony of them, meeting and fact. Andrew was kind of the designated role for Trump because of the golf interests.

And, you know, Andrew went to more Lago. There are pictures of him there with with Melania and with Gwendoline Burke, who was one of the people supposedly took to to the island. No, there's plenty. I mean, they went off and play golf. Andrew was designated to show Trump Ryan when he came on his first state visit. So, you know, the link between them are pretty extensive. So, Andrew, can you take us inside the family dynamics.

of the decision to strip Prince Andrew of his title? Because we know there's William waiting in the wings. According to what I've heard and read, the decision to strip, Andrew of his titles, last week. was pretty much driven by, William, Charles. But I think Charles had been heckled. He could see the comments in the papers, lots and lots of editorials and including. a front page of the New Statesman saying, is this the end of the monarchy?

And I think they realize he needs to act. And I think, Camilla was probably quite instrumental here. She was very instrumental in adding, a note to the statement. that they were thinking for the victims, and that was the most important thing. They, I think, realized that these were the questions were being asked, and they needed to, to to basically seize the story and make it their own. So was there a sense in which the king was reluctant to, because there has been this sense that he was trying to,

you know, reconcile with. Harry by Harry coming over for a visit recently. and also trying to sort of, I thought, help Prince Andrew. But perhaps I'm wrong. Yes. No, I think the King Charles is very sentimental. It's his younger brother. I think he gave an undertaking. to the Queen that he would take care of the brother. The run to the letter, as is called. And so I think he found it very difficult to make these tough decisions. I mean, the narrative that's been spun from Buckingham Palace is. it was very much the King's decision.

He's been thinking of doing this for a long time. I think people just. eventually got both fed up with Andrew and his stubbornness, insistence. and staying in Royal Lodge in the heat despite the bad optics, but also, I think they could just say, see the way public opinion was going and they were going to be in big trouble. So it's. it will be interesting to see how things play out. over the next few weeks, even whether people are now. satisfied that justice has been served or will look for more.

And I think. that they will be looking through more, that Andrew hasn't really been fully held. to account for his actions. He hasn't given a statement explaining everything in his relationship. with Epstein. And that he is, I think, vulnerable to charges being brought against him. So, Andrew, one of the things that has certainly happened over the last few years. is that the British royal correspondents for the tabloids. and the broadsheets in the UK have become much more timorous.

of writing about the royal family as one of the reasons that your book, entitled, got so much attention. because you were incredibly robust in your reporting. Are you noticing a change at all? Yes, I am, and I welcome it. So I've noticed that a number of journalists. who I thought were very much on side and reliant. on the royal family for their tip offs, are now much more critical. There's I mean, some of the new books that are coming out. again are much more questioning of the royals.

So this is good. I do feel that there is a change of mood and, and certainly the press have been running some quite hard hitting investigations. They've been running leaks, which I don't think they would have written before. They're, they're criticizing even even the King and the Prince of Wales. And so this is this is a complete sea change, I think, in attitudes which. which is welcome. I mean, I think they, you know, if they have nothing to hide, they should have no problems. about having this proper scrutiny. So let me ask you one final question.

Andrew is now going to be referred to as Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. There is a certain irony to this, because his fall from grace. is to do with his connection to Jeffrey Epstein. A sexual predator. But in taking the name Mountbatten, he. also has a. connection to a predator that you wrote another book about. Well, one of the ironies is one of my previous subjects, Lord. Mountbatten, who was, Prince Philip's, uncle,

and it's now emerged having had a very distinguished. public career as, as for the, for the last viceroy of India. It's been revealed, I've revealed in my book that he was a pedophile. There's actually a case. going through the courts in Belfast about a young boy who was trafficked him. from one of the boys homes. There. So this is on top of the two witnesses I had and indeed, the FBI files I found talking about his pedophilia. So, there is a second pedophile in the family with the same surname now.

as, Andrew, who we used to know is Prince. Good lord. Well, William has his work cut out for him when he eventually takes over. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us, and I'm glad your book is going up the bestseller list again. Thank you. Yes. No, it's it's it's it's gratifying. And it's good that in some ways these issues are now being aired, which. they I've been calling for for years and nothing was done. So I really feel confident that there's going to be some change.

Great. Well, Andrew lonely, thank you very much. And if you haven't. read it, entitled The Rise and the fall of the House of York, well, I guess you'll be rapidly coming out with an updated edition of it, won't you? We will. It's going to be called untitled. Okay. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. It's really quite. unfathomable the number of men. who have lost their entire livelihoods because of their connection.

to Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew is just the latest. The question is, who will be next and when will that be? If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to leave a comment on this podcast. Please subscribe and subscribe to to the Daily Beast. We are independent media and we really appreciate your support. And I think we feel confident. to do stories that other people don't dig into quite as much.

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