Why Ailing Trump Is Paranoid About Mental Decline | The Daily Beast Podcast

Donald Trump was paranoid before he developed dementia. Okay. That's the nature of malignant narcissism. Paranoia is one of the core components. That's why when you hear him speaking in these very articulate talks. and late 1980s, he's like, oh, you know, China, they're just trying to screw us. They want to manipulate blah, blah, blah. So it's still we're being screwed, right? It's still the paranoia. But at least the sentences were comprehensible. Now, as he's starting to deteriorate, one of the signs of dementia. is people becoming more paranoid. The paranoia is becoming more grotesque, more,

primitive. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. Happy new year. And what a year 2026 is going to be. We've got the midterms looming and everything we're thinking about. We're going to. Well, everybody we're talking about. we're going to be looking at it through the lens of the midterms. I think as we go ahead. But who better to talk to as we kick off. January 2026 than Doctor John Gartner, who spent a lot of time.

observing Donald Trump and has all sorts of important thoughts, bringing his 40 years as a clinical psychologist to bear on what is going on. with the president's mental health and how is it impacting the rest of us. And for those of you who haven't seen it, The Wall Street Journal did a long piece. about Donald Trump's health this week, and when they rang up the white House. for fact checking questions, the president himself came on the line.

And Doctor John will analyze for us the president's response. So no time to waste. Let's get into it. What better. way to start the new year than with Doctor John Gartner? Doctor John, you are one of our favorite guests. Comments, comments are full of excitement. For what you have to say. I've even got my soul tweed jacket on as a note to your academic credentials,

because I know you are super swanky at Johns Hopkins University. Great. You're making me feel comfortable. Well. I'm trying. I don't have elbow patches, but, But I do bring questions and and one of the questions, of course, that. lots of people have that I would like you to, address is can Doctor John Gartner actually. form a genuine diagnosis about what's going on with the president? Because that's the whole Goldwater rule, where, you know, psychiatrist and.

therapists aren't supposed to even think about a diagnosis for public figures. A new voice said, you've never sat down with him, but you've also said that he's. he's so evident on the public stage, it's impossible not to form a diagnosis. Can you just talk to us about about how you observe him? Sure. Well, first of all, people need to understand the Goldwater rule. Means is it is a ban against diagnosing public figures.

without interviewing them, and has a lot more to do with protecting. public figures or protecting their relationship to the profession. In fact, we can diagnose patients without interviewing them, and we do quite all the time in clinical practice, and it's not considered unusual or unethical. This was really more of an attempt to manage the relationship. of the profession to public figures who could damage the profession, frankly. The other thing is, we've had a shift in our diagnostic nomenclature in the 1980s.

We went to, the DSM three system, now DSM five. Which is just based on a manual. Right. Just for people who I'm familiar with it. Right. Yeah. Right. Which some people have called the psychiatric Bible, where we list all the diagnoses, but they all have to have observable behavioral criteria. I know we're going to talk about this, Wall Street Journal article that just came out about Trump. But one of the interesting things they said is that in the case of Biden, his handlers kept him out of the public eye as a way of,

basically deceiving the public about his level of cognitive decline. But Trump is taking the opposite strategy. He is basically filling the zone. with so much flagrant, florid manifestations. of dementia and psychopathology that we're essentially getting used to it. So his strategy is not to hide it, but to somehow. say, like they say in Men in Black, hey, but on me this looks good. You know.

All right, so let's talk about this Wall Street Journal for people. who haven't read it or haven't seen it yet, it's a very, it's a fascinating piece because the president calls in, after the paper, which has put together. a list of questions for the white House about Donald Trump's health, because they, too, have been diagnosing. some of his other behavior strategies before they reach out to him. And he, in fact, calls them to complain about the fact. that everybody's obsessed by his health. What did you make of his response to the paper?

I'm glad you asked that question. You know, one of the things that happens when you really become a microscopic. viewer of Trump's behavior is. you start to notice that some of the deranged things he says. actually have a loose chain of association that explain them. And actually, Freud said there's it's not possible for the brain to produce random thoughts. There's always some chain of association. So I want to tell you that what he said is, his exact words were,

yeah. Let's talk about health again for the 25th time now. 25, 24, I go. There you go. You see where I'm going? He has 25th amendment. Just explain. Please explain what the 25th amendment talking. About it for the 25th time, because people keep saying it's 25th amendment time. How so? He gave. Himself away. Like how people talking about my health. That reminds me of the 25th amendment.

So stop talking about it for the 25th time. So is he projecting that he's actually anxious. someone is going to invoke the 25th amendment and remove him. from office on mental, on mental capacity grounds? I'm sure that he's paranoid about that, actually, because he is paranoid and paranoid. People are very quick to see any threat to their power. Malignant narcissism in particular. You know, Saddam Hussein used to execute people. and they would say, well, was he a traitor? He says, no, but I could tell eventually he was going to be.

Right, which is a very good way of undermining everybody, everybody in your room so or everybody around you. So what do we make of the fact. that his physical health is also clearly challenged in front of us? He said he's been taking an inordinate amount of aspirin. because he wants thin blood rushing through his heart, not thick blood. What did you make of that?

You know, I think that's probably he's that's probably true. And it's actually very funny because it's very in-character. He just does wacky things medically. You know, this is the guy that told us to take hydroxychloroquine. and to inject bleach and put light in our arms. And, you know, it was agreeing that vaccines cause autism. So the fact that he would subscribe to some wacky, dated medical theory. about aspirin and not listen to his doctor's advice actually makes sense. And it does actually, to some extent make sense.

of some of the symptoms that they're trying to, explain, the bruises on his hand between his age and taking the aspirin. that could cause him to actually be very easily browsable. We would kind of expect to see bruises other places than just the back of his. hands, but we don't examine his whole body, so it's possible that he is easily, easily bruised. When I was disappointed about it in that Wall Street Journal crows, they mentioned nothing about his cognitive functioning. At least the New York Times article touched on it.

They said, you know, his rambling speeches have become more rambling. The closest they got in the wall Street Journal was saying that he, you know, he often veers from topic to topic, sometimes making factual errors. Okay. So that's again, very mild, right. But we know and this has been reported in The Daily Beast, that no story enrages. Donald Trump more than the stories about his physical and cognitive health. And there's a reason for that one. He knows that he's covering something up, but two was a malignant narcissist.

The one thing you need to project is strength. It's okay to be hated and feared, but you have to appear strong. And so this is really it. Donald Trump's Achilles heel is his brain. And now, I guess, a whole bunch of other organs, you know, his his ankles, his heart, his his hands. You know, also, his psychomotor performance is getting worse. His, you know, wide right based, leg swing is becoming dramatically worse.

We talked about that. I think last time that footage of him and his grandson in the white House. But since then, we're also seeing other signs of weakness on his right side. He's having trouble raising his hand. His right hand to salute. He couldn't flip a coin at the NFL game, where he was given that honor. He's we see him pounding his leg. before his right leg before he walks down the stairs. Of the from Air Force One on to the tarmac. He's clearly we see the right side of his face drooping when he falls asleep.

So clearly he's had some kind of. I think many stroke or stroke that's affected the right side of his body. And this is what happens when people have dementia. See? Right. Think what we now have is a set of careening disorders, right? That when people start to not do well physically, and I think anybody. with eyes in their head can see that this man is not well, let me think. Melting in front of us cognitively and physically. So can you talk to us a little bit.

about one of the symptoms that I find very interesting around dementia. And that's paranoia. What what actually is paranoia? I mean, it's one of those words that we use all the time. But without that, I think probably a true understanding of what it actually means. And I feel like you can give us both the, the sort of root of it. and how Donald Trump is displaying paranoia. And so, look, this is what's sort of frightening. about this deterioration that is going through.

Donald Trump was paranoid before he developed dementia. Okay. That's the nature of malignant narcissism. Paranoia is one of the core components. That's why when you hear him speaking in these very articulate talks. and late 1980s, he's like, oh, you know, China, they're just trying to screw us. They want to manipulate blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's still we're being screwed, right? It's still the paranoia. But at least the sentences were comprehensible. Now, as he's starting to deteriorate, one of the signs of dementia. is people becoming more paranoid. The paranoia is becoming more grotesque, more, primitive.

But just. But what does paranoid mean? That. That you think that other people are coming after you? Is that is that the essence of paranoia? Yes. Well, you feel like people are threatening you. They're trying to hurt you. You're projecting onto them, actually your own aggressive and destructive impulses. And I just wanted to give you an example, by the way, of how his paranoia has gotten worse. Do you remember that scene where he was talking to children? He was sort of playing Santa? Yes.

You know, they were cool. I relate to that scene. Yes. That's right. And they're and they're and officially the white House tracks Santa's sleigh. You know, that's a sort of a faux thing that they do every year. You so he said to one child, you know, we track Santa all over the world, and we have to make sure that Santa is being good. Santa is a very good person, but we have to make sure he's not infiltrated, that we're not infiltrating into our country a bad Santa. I mean, how.

how crazy. You have to be paranoid about Santa. I know it's. Might be infiltrating us. Well, to be fair, Santa, at least the image we have. of Santa actually comes from Coca Cola, right? That Santa used to be green, a Saint Nicholas, and then it was. an ad campaign to make people drink more Coca Cola that turned Santa red, or. put him in his red suit because it's the same color as Coca Cola. So I understand why people might be paranoid about Santa. But I didn't. Know.

I didn't know that was a thing. Santa phobia. I didn't know that was something people were going through. Well, I think it was a very clever marketing ploy. on behalf of the Coca-Cola company. But does it also. I mean, I think he also, when he was talking to kids about Santa, referred to the governors of the states they were living in, and then he used it as an opportunity to attack his predecessor. Why don't you see so paranoid? And why does he keep coming back to Joe Biden?

Because he beat Biden. He's in the white House now. Biden has since been diagnosed with cancer, so it's not like he's still a threat to him. No, I. think this is where he's just trying to shift the blame. Basically he's trying to project the blame. So, you know, we'll be three years into the Trump presidency. and he'll be talking about the Biden economy. That's just a political. Yeah, just trying to shift the blame, which he's so, so good at. But he is,

he does see enemies everywhere. Okay. And basically, even the people who he considers to be allies become enemies. Right. See that we saw that with Elon Musk, and now maybe they're making up. But in other words, everyone could betray him. That's when I talked about, you know, Saddam Hussein killing people. It was because he was scared of them. It was. He was trying to. He was so paranoid that he thought his own people. were going to turn against him, and he had to kill them proactively. Well, I think it's a threat against him. I mean, people say that, oh, Trump is King Lear,

but actually he's much more akin to Macbeth, who was really trying. to kill all his enemies before they could lunge at him and take his seat. Well, you know, if you think about a malignant narcissist, a gang boss, you know, is one kind of. prototypical, prototypical example of a malignant narcissist. And what a gang bosses do, right? They try to rub out not only their enemies, but their rivals, or someone who could even potentially rat on them.

Maybe he had no intention to, but they have the potential. to where they have the information, where they could if they chose to. So it's a lot of proactive killing. to protect yourself, right? Against people who could harm you. And that's the kind of attitude that that he has. Okay. So we're literally watching The Wire in the white House. If that's a good line. The whole The Wire in the white House. So. talk to us a little bit more about I mean, you've always claimed.

that Donald Trump suffers from malignant narcissism. Then there's a layer of age related dementia on top of it. It's sort of, and then he seems, at certain times, highly cogent, highly cogent. Can you can you explain to us, I understand the process of dementia. isn't linear, but as a doctor, when you look at someone's. symptoms, what what are you looking for? And what should we be looking for to check that we shouldn't.

urge someone to invoke the 25th amendment? Well, as you as you pointed out, there's a lot of variability. when people are in the decline of dementia. They have good days and bad days. They have days. when they'll recognize a relative, in days when they won't recognize a relative. We talked about him not recognizing Hakeem Jeffries. Who? Someone he actually knows. Well, when he was negotiating with Chuck Schumer. Well, I'm sure two days later he would recognize that Kim Jeffries. But the fact that he could have moments where he doesn't even recognize Hakeem.

Jeffries shows that that we really are at a serious level of, deterioration. I, I. Can I ask him, what is that to do with? Is that to do with brain tissue disintegrating? I mean, what is basically, triggered by. Well, the type of dementia that he probably has is frontotemporal dementia. So the frontal lobes are really deteriorating. And what's scary about that, if he had Alzheimer's, the memory component would be. what was more front and center with frontotemporal dementia.

What's actually more front and center is the behavioral disinhibition. and the behavioral acting out. So it's even worse if he had Alzheimer's and he was just for his losing his memory, that would be one thing. But he has a form of dementia. that disinhibited people to basically act out badly. So we have this person who has virtually absolute power. and no guardrails, who in a demented state is being is impulsively. being driven to act out in these paranoid and destructive and and crazy ways.

I'll also point out, though, that. I don't think he is that cogent, even on his good days. I think the overall meaning of his intellectual functioning. is going down, so even his good days are not anywhere near as good. as what his baseline was before. I know this is. just a trivial little thing, but I had to pull this quote. He was on Fox having a little softball interview in there. So, Barron, do you think his future is in business or politics? And Trump said, well, I think it's technology. You know, he can look at a computer.

I tried turning off his laptop. I turned off his laptop. I said, oh, good. And five minutes later he's got his laptop and it's on. I said, how did you do that? He said, none of your business. He's got an unbelievable aptitude for technology. That is just priceless. Absolutely. And we shouldn't be laughing because it's the president of the free world. But that is shocking that he thinks his son has an aptitude. for computing because he can switch his computer on. You can press the button.

Yeah. And probably relates to his frustration as the father of a teenager. who was always on his computer at some point. But surely barrenness has got his own ability to switch his, computer on and off. So so we've got we've got malignant narcissism. We've got a level of, what you call frontotemporal dementia. Does the stroke that many people say they think has happened. and certainly would account for the weakness on the right side.

of the body and the drooping of the right hand side of the mouth. Does that accelerate dementia? Well, absolutely. I mean, if you've ever had them. I had a demented relative in my family. And what killed him suddenly was a stroke. So the deterioration of the Alzheimer's was very gradual. But the stroke was very sudden. And that's a very common way for people with dementia to to die. So I think he could be vulnerable to having another stroke at, at any minute.

The other diagnostic layer is his hypomania. That, you know, he's always had a hypomanic temperament. I think I've talked about this. I wrote a book about Bill Clinton. I believe he also has a hypomanic temperament. So that's not necessarily in itself an evil or bad thing. It's a lot people who have a lot of energy and confidence and charisma, and creativity, who are very driven, and very dominant. And they're also can be very arrogant and make errors in judgment.

and be impatient and, and, impulsive. So a lot of the creative types who sort of start new movements. have this temperament. So it's it's a temperament, but it's your character that determines how you channel that temperament. So Bill Clinton has a very different character. I think he is very benign character for the most part. Whereas Trump has always had a destructive malignant. narcissistic personality disorder. So he's always been tweeting into the night, he's. always gotten very little sleep.

And actually that they deal with that. In the Wall Street Journal article, he says, well, I never really got much sleep. That's true. He is one of those people like like Clinton, who congenitally his whole life hasn't needed much sleep. But now he's passing out during the day, you see. And that's a whole other level, of symptomatology that he, you know, there. now in the Wall Street Journal article, he says it's a lie. He's just blinking. He also has said that the people on his staff have begged him. to try to keep his eyes open, but he can't do it,

even though he's enraged at the reporting about his falling asleep. He can't stop falling asleep. Because the point is, it is actually that, I think, is the sign of the dementia. And and it's perhaps disrupting his sleep somewhat at night, which might make him tired or that's, that's possible. But people need to understand his baseline is that he's always been up all night. Hate tweeter, but I think over Christmas he had 150 angry posts. I mean, talk about this guy being the anti Santa. You know, I need to be up all night Christmas.

talking about all the people you hate, is really, really anti-Christian. I think. There are so many books now about sleep and why sleep is important. And one of the arguments they make is because it sort of washes the memory. and it helps the brain process the day and then get ready for the next day. And, I'm always. mindful of people who say they don't sleep very much. because I'm trying to figure out, well, when does your brain actually switch off? When does it relax? And you think of Margaret Thatcher,

who famously only slept five hours a day and got terrible dementia towards the end? Disordered sleeping? Is it a potential symptom of of dementia? It can be because our diurnal rhythm is something our brain imposes. And so as, as as people start to lose control of their basic functions, you know, thinking, remembering, talking, walking, you know, some of those functions are internal, like maintaining their own rhythm. So as in, in general, there is a probably a deterioration in his sleep. We don't know that for sure because he's always been a low sleeper and he's always.

been someone who ate, tweeted, you know, into the into the night. But I think the fact that he's passing out now during the day. is definitely, it's it's meaningful. And he can't stop it. He knows it's it's showing his Achilles heel. And yet he can't stop the behavior because it's involuntary. So he's told us, however, that he's passed endless cognitive tests, including the Moca test and and you pointed out.

the last time you were on that, it's not a question of doing these tests. What what's obvious to any doctor or professional in the field is. if you are repeatedly doing these tests, is because you are being monitored. Your baseline is being absolutely, absolutely. And of course, in his first presidency, he talks about giving, being given a test. where he was asked to repeat the words man, woman, fish, television. I mean, some random words. So we realized that he's actually been.

going through this before and actually as a, as a, I want to say, responsible person whose father had dementia. and whose symptoms Mary Trump, Donald Trump's niece, who's been on the podcast, said she recognized she said she looked at him. one time when he was standing in the white House, and she completely recognized the expression on his face, which was one of looking lost, which increasingly. he does actually in videos that that people release more long ago. Yes. I want to ask you about that, but but can we talk about these tests?

What are these tests? Are they actually do people actually pass them. or what are they exactly. Okay. So the there's there's really two issues here. One, the fact that he's taken them so often and the other that he's. also indicated that he's taken other cognitive tests in addition to the Moca. So as you pointed out, nobody takes the Moca repeatedly. unless they're being monitored for dementia. It might be used as part of a general screening battery for an older person.

If you were doing a very thorough sort of physical and some people have even argued. that should really be part of the standard battery, but you wouldn't be giving it to someone six months later. unless you really had perceived there is a problem. And we need to. to monitor it. We need to keep an eye on it, see if it's getting worse. So the fact that he revealed that he had taken the Moca six months later, again, is essentially revealing that his doctors believe that he is showing. signs of cognitive decline that require medical monitoring.

The other thing that he said is that he took a series of tests, plural, and he kept saying, well, and AOC and Jasmine Crockett, they couldn't take those tests. I challenged them, you know, to a Moca off, a test off. Well, actually, I wish those congresspeople. would be very aggressive about insisting that they have that, the test off, because I think that they would reveal how really demented he is. Because he's bragging about passing something.

that really is a screening device. It has items on it, like, can you identify which one of these animals is the lion? Can you identify which one is the giraffe? Well, my two and a half year old grandson can do that. So it's not really something to brag. About, but it's very strange that he would, but he would actually boast about that. So what does Moca actually stand for? It's the Montreal, cognitive assessment test. So it's a screening test that was developed in Montreal by a group,

I don't remember who the group is, as a screening test. And it's meant to be super, super easy, right? Because the point is, if you can't pass this. Okay, now we've really got a problem, right? So to say, like, no one's ever seen anyone do this. Well, we mean, like, because no one's ever identified the lion as well as you have. I mean, wow, the way you got that lion right away, no one ever did that before. I mean, that's just crazy. It's crazy to say that you did well on the Moca.

Okay, so. And can people find it on online? I mean, I'm actually very curious to take the most Moca test. I want to self diagnose, but but because sometimes when you read off the symptoms, I think to myself, oh lordy, I feel like I show up on some of these. But I think we should encourage everybody. Everybody in America should try and take the Moca test. They should understand. what the president says he has aced, especially if it's not very hard.

The other thing is he keeps saying he took additional tests. And what that suggests is that they gave him not just the screening test, but he did badly enough on the screening test that they felt. they had to give him a battery of tests, some kind of neuropsychological battery. And what, people have noticed, as he was at Walter Reed for almost four hours, if they were just giving him an MRI or a Cat. scan of one part of his body, that would be a 15 minute procedure. But taking these cognitive tests, if you're really giving someone. a real battery, it's about a three hour can be even an all day affair, frankly,

because they get very thorough and there's a lot of tests there. So he's told us he's taken them over three times. He's told us he took additional cognitive tests. Interestingly, in the Wall Street Journal article, he says, I wish I never took any of those tests. because now everybody's so curious about what they found, and I suspect he'll probably refuse future tests. if they say, we want to give you the mask again. or we want to give you a MRI, he may just say, no, I'm good. Because, he thought this would dispel suspicion, but of course, no, it's actually increasing suspicion.

So, Doctor John, what are. the things that people should be most alarmed about? I know there are many things to be alarmed about, not not least some of his so-called policies. But actually, when you're watching someone and you've watched them. deteriorate over a long period of time, are there certain. many tipping points that we should feel doubly concerned about? Well, objectively, looking at his behavior and his deterioration,

this is someone who really probably can't take proper care of himself. How can he possibly discharge the duties of president of the United States? I mean, this is the real Emperor's new clothes, fiasco that we're living here. You know, it's one thing to focus on how bad he is. I think we all know he's bad. Okay, but it's actually worse to be bad and demented. because then there's there's no there's no rhyme or reason,

to the way you act out and there's no one there who can really corral him. You know, even Susan Wiles, you know, and sort of say, no, I don't think you should really bomb this random country. because you read about something, you know, on Twitter. That's not a good idea. I mean, this is the kind of thing it sounds comical, but. he really could do almost anything. First of all, he has no moral compunctions right about anything that he would do. But also, given that he is so completely cognitively confused, he can also do something that just doesn't even make any sense.

Or that completely reflects a disordered view of of reality. We're and. the fact that the Wall Street Journal is like, vaguely touching on this now, maybe because the billionaire class. The reason the Wall Street Journal doesn't like what's happening with the economy. But this is really the tip of the iceberg. I mean, they're being so euphemistic in the ways they're talking about. his really gross decline that if you have eyes in your head, you can just see it. You don't need to be a professional. to see this man's deteriorating physically and mentally.

Okay. So of the moments over the last year. or so, what are the ones that have most alarmed you? Well, you know, I really want to recommend to people an excellent article. in the New Republic. It was written by the entire New Republic staff. It's called cognitive decline. These were Trump's 11 most senile moments of 2025. So, you know, he's got all these best lists, best movies, best books.

So they're putting out a list of Trump's most demented moments. Yeah, a different spin on it. And a different spin on it. And but again, using that word. And so I just wanted to read their best list. So number one falling asleep. We've been. talking about two the word groceries. If you remember him going, you know, groceries. It's an old fashioned where people didn't, you know, don't like to use the word grocery, but groceries, groceries, you know, it's a bag where you put things, groceries. You know, I think that was a basically a paraphrase of his groceries.

His whole thing about magnets, you know, that no one understands magnets. They melt. And his obsession with magnets. So that one person. Pick that one. Do you remember that? Crazy. He had a crazy moment where he talked about boats and sharks. and electricity and and that whole none of which made sense. None of none. Of which made any sense. Right, exactly. Yeah. So he's got that whole thing. Then someone picked the moment when someone asked him about Kirk's death. This was like the next day, and he said, yeah, well, let me show you my ballroom.

As if he just had no reaction to the context of Kirk's death. Just like he had no reaction to that person who passed out in his office. If you remember that. Of course, that I was talking about the GLP one prices and he, you know. Right, right, right. And that's spiked out. Yes. And it was like a comedy scene. You couldn't make it up. There was a man with his legs up in the air behind Trump. And that was the moment, actually, that Mary Trump said she looked at Donald Trump. and he was standing there with this lost expression.

He'd lost control of the narrative. because some poor man had passed out in his office. And she said, like expression is important. The blank expression is important. You know, the moment I think we've lost the Republicans. during the debate, when they looked at Biden. and he had that blank look on his face, wasn't even anything he said. It was that blank look and that you're right, Mary Trump has focused on. That is one of her key diagnostic, indicators. You saw that blank look, that moment when that person passed out. You also saw that blank look when he was wandering in Japan.

Yeah, we've talked about that a couple shows ago, right, where the Prime Minister had to sort of guide him around, and he looked completely disoriented and eventually actually wandered off. quite a far distance. before somebody realized that he was wandering in the wrong direction. And you also saw look, you also saw. on her face her expression of shock. She literally opens her mouth, which reminds me of an expression I, you saw on,

Doug's face. The second gentleman, when they're all gathered to dance. for Juneteenth, and he's standing next to Kamala. There is President Biden, who's just frozen, and you can see Doug Emhoff looking at him. with a side eye, trying to figure out, oh, my goodness, what's going on? And President Biden is just frozen. You know. No, I mean, the thing about these symptoms is they're not subtle. And normal people recognize them when they see them, you know,

and we're seeing them, so they're just trying to gaslight the American people by saying, you know, nothing to see here when we're seeing it with our own eyes. And also people. I think the other thing, and I don't want to stop you on your list, but I think people recognize this because they have experience of it. themselves with people in their offices, though, with their own families, with their friends. This is not something that people don't have experience of. They say, oh my goodness, that's like uncle Frank or Auntie Eileen.

This is what happened to them too. So it's a very examen reaction to getting older. Unfortunately, for lots of people. No. You mentioned the comments. that we've gotten on these shows and, I know you and I both read the comments. We read you. Yeah, we read them copiously. We we do. We read them carefully. And I think one of. the most common comments that we've gotten is this reminds me of my mother. This reminds me of my ex-husband. That's right. You know that they've been through the experience.

and they recognize it when they see it because they've seen it before. Yeah, yeah. It's not unfamiliar people. Okay. I stopped you in the middle of your list. Please continue. Okay. Well. The now my man, but yeah. Japan was one of the things on their list. Okay. Mud beds. I don't know if you remember this, but he he had, retweeted a quote, quote, tweeted. this, promise that Trump is going to deliver med beds and med beds. For those of you who don't know if you're not in the right wing. Paranoid, conspiracy, a sphere.

There is this idea that they are these magic beds that cure everything that. rich people have hoarded to themselves, and they're called med beds, but. they're like a it's a conspiracy to hide them from the regular people. And so Trump weighed in on that, saying, well, I'm going to provide. med beds for everyone and gave a whole like, long, like, promise. everything about these med beds, which don't exist. So that was on the list. His use of the word skedaddle, which actually we've actually read. on this show a verbatim, of his talking about the word skedaddle. Yep.

It's use of of sounds rather than words. So the Dada, dada pop up, boom boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, where he just actually loses language and can only communicate in sort. Of grunts and. Sounds? We shouldn't be laughing. It's not funny. And yet it's again, very noticeable. Yeah. Well, I mean, I know people sometimes do in the comments. criticize us for laughing and, maybe, maybe they're right.

Maybe we're meme girls. I don't know. But, you also, some of this is so absurd, you know, that if you don't laugh at it. Really, you know, I don't know how else to cope with it. And there is a kind of comedic absurdity, right, to the fact. that we're talking about these grossly thought disordered and symptoms, and people are acting as if this is normal, like the Emperor's New clothes. So that's what's really crazy. And I think the way to not go crazy is to laugh at it and go, this is absurd.

Well, and again, it's a little bit how you deal with elderly relatives. who've lost the plot. And so everybody's humoring them. And clearly it's very different when the man is sitting. behind the resolute desk. Let's talk a little bit. Did you finish the list, by the way? Do we have a couple more to go? I feel like we had two levels. One, him calling, Trump Republicans. They should be called tea publicans. And then something about everything's a computer. And actually, I have to admit, I didn't even know where that quote came from. So that that's there. Well, I. Think that that could that could have been the moment when Ellen shows him a Tesla.

and, Trump gets, oh, I car and he goes, oh, wow, computer. And it was just a sort of bizarre, it just felt it felt unfortunate. So so let's talk about one of the most complex things around. dealing with people with dementia, which is how you handle them. We talked on our last podcast just before Christmas about Susie Wiles. His comment caught him, in an interview she did with Chris Whipple,

that Donald Trump has an alcoholic personality, something. she recognized, although Donald Trump doesn't drink, how do people contort themselves. around people with issues like this? And how do they. Because you you reference, Saddam Hussein's erratic behavior and determination. to just occasionally execute people to to encourage others to fall in line.

If you're working in a Donald Trump cabinet, how how do you manage this behavior? And do you think there's a collective acknowledgment around the table? The guy is crackers and we we're all in. on the on this knowledge. I think there is I really do even in the. we found out after the fact in a Vanity Fair article. that even after the first Trump administration, there was apparently. a text chain among Trump staff members that just where they would just do.

hashtag 25, you know, when he would do something really nuts. Just as a way of kind of joking among themselves. Oh, here he goes again, doing something crazy. And obviously the level of deterioration is massive since, his first administration. And so one of the things I think he's angry about it. from the Wall Street Journal article is they they cite people who are inside. the white House who are saying that he's showing signs of aging. Again, we're being euphemistic here by just showing signs of aging.

And talking about his thin skin and physically thin skin, not emotionally. thin skin. And, but the point is, yes, I think that and I think actually Michael Wolf. probably has a hundred times more info on this than I do, but from what. I've heard from some of the things that he said, the people in the white House are, you know, gossiping among themselves. or speaking among themselves. that they know they're dealing with this impaired, difficult person. The problem is how to deal with him, how to cope with them.

And there is no really easy answer. Look, even in nursing homes, we're just dealing with demented. people who don't have, you know, absolute power. It's difficult to deal with them. One of the reasons that there so much antipsychotic abuse, which is actually. something I've been a cause of mine for a number of years. that were over medicating elderly people with antipsychotics because it makes them. more pliable and makes them more manageable, but it also. also basically kills them eventually.

That's why there's a black box warning from the FDA saying, do not give this to elderly people, but yet they do because they don't know how to manage these people. Is there any evidence that Donald Trump is taking medication. for the aging process, or for early onset dementia? We don't have any evidence. I think you can argue that there's evidence. that he could use some medication, but I don't think there's any evidence that he's taking medication. We don't know if those bruises in the back of his hand. mean he's taking an anti Alzheimer's drug. I think we really have no information, you know, about that.

And what I was saying is no. Go ahead. When you were asking about. Well, you were asking about how do they manage him in the white House. or do they have the. are they speaking among themselves, trying to come up with some strategy? And I think the what I was trying to say is, even in a nursing home, when you're. dealing with someone who isn't your boss, who doesn't have absolute power, you're just trying to keep them, from, you know, tearing up the place. It becomes a nightmare, actually, for the staff to manage some of these people,

especially when they go around sunset, when they start sundowning, and the impulsive, aggressive physical behavior can be very difficult to manage. And one of the things they do is often give them very damaging. antipsychotic drugs just to make them more manageable, even though it's very bad medically for the patient. Obviously they can't do that with Donald Trump, but I'm saying that's just managing them in a facility. Imagine what it's like when that person has is your boss and has absolute power. I think the people around him, frankly, are terrified.

because they know they can't manage him and they know he's out of control. and they're just kind of like trying to survive through the day. Basically without something catastrophic happening. Well, well. And he's also, very capable of either contradicting them in public or completely undermining them. And one of the things that Carolyn Leavitt, his white House press. spokesperson has done, is frequently say that the reason his hands are bruised. is because he does so much shaking of hands, which of course, then.

didn't make sense when his other hand, his left hand, started showing bruises to. So his discussion with the Wall Street Journal frankly humiliated her, or at least underlined the fact that she'd just been spinning on his behalf. But but it wasn't true. What she was saying. Well, I. think that any attention brought to the issue of his cognitive. and physical health is a bad media day for Donald Trump.

and a bad psychological day for Donald Trump. You know, see how irritated he is? You know, he said that of all the stories, the one that makes him the angriest. are the ones that come out of places like the Daily Beast. about his cognitive functioning. So no one has made him angrier than us, apparently. You mention you mention, the sort of special hell of senior. centers when, sundowning is coming. But lots of people are being given drugs to to help them stay calm.

And we had a very interesting comment from a young woman who had spent, a year, obviously as part of some research at, at an old people's home. And she just said it was actually a very frightening place to be. Do people with this kind of, Early onset dementia, do they ever get violent? Do you think it's possible that Donald Trump is violent? Well, they do get violent, quite often. So I mean, that's a very because the they become paranoid,

they become aggressive, and they become disinhibited and confused. So, it does make sense for them at some point to physically. lash out, not, out of a, mean spirited, you know, attempt to be hurtful, but because they're frightened and they're confused and they're paranoid. and they feel like they're being under attack. But it does then make them very difficult to manage. I mean, my aunt was managing my uncle alone in her house.

You know, my uncle was a wonderful person for the most part. Even when he got demented, he would say things like, I love you, honey, you know? And then five minutes later, it's say, I love you, honey. You know, he forgot that. He said, I love you and you keep saying it. But sometimes he would become disoriented and want to wander away. into traffic, literally. Oh. One of the things I forgot to put on the list. is that him wandering on the white House roof, that was one of the, moments that when some people pick. And I remember my aunt called me when Trump was wandering on the roof. and she said, that's the worst thing you can happen to have a demented person wandering.

on the roof? Yeah, yeah. That's that's why. that's why somebody sent him up there. So, so so. Yes. But, more than his physical violence, I'm. worried that he could act out because he has all this power, right? He might physically act out by just deciding to kill a few hundred people. You know what I mean? Just blow up a few boats. Not just lash out with his arm, you know what I mean? So the fact that he's got all of this power. and that he is fundamentally a malevolent person,

and now he's disinhibited to act out in these confusing, aggressive ways. I mean, it's sort of really is the worst possible formula. that I could possibly imagine for any kind of stability. So what would you say to people who are working with him and around him, and who deal with him on a daily basis closely? What is your. Take on the 25th amendment. If they're not prepared to do that? Because perhaps they see a more cogent side of him than you do,

what is the best way to handle someone who who has the, you know, who's manifesting these symptoms? Well, part of I think what they do is stroke his ego. We know from these cabinet meetings, right, where they, you know, fall over themselves, right? To to who as to who can be more grotesquely embarrassing. and praising the, the, the great leader. And I think one of the things that's happening is I think they're helping, letting him focus on irrelevant things that pump up his ego.

but don't have much effect. So about the ballroom and the what paint they use. and you know, what, what, what what type of grass they use. And, you know, letting him, you know, he's now he's on a naming spree. Talk about grandiosity, right. When has a living president ever when have we ever named anything. after a living president? Well, the answer is never. We've never named a structure after a living president. And certainly when, as a living president insisted something being named after him. and when as a living president. insisted something mean from this already name for another president.

Right. I mean, the Kennedy Center is amazing. And now he wants to build an arc de Triomphe, but it's going to be an arc. to Trump. You know, it'll be like an imitation of the arc de Triomphe and in Paris. or the Washington Square, you know, but instead it's going to be a Trump monument. So he's kind of on a, on a they're kind of letting him grandiose, run around naming everything after himself and being obsessed. with these, these little details, while meanwhile other people were actually running the government. I think that's one of the ways they're, dealing with him.

is kind of distracting him with these narcissistic niceties. Because he can't really grasp what's going on with policy. I mean, again, to show how he's really not functioning that well. One of the things that happened, it's such a small thing. But he said, you know, I was a leader on five G. Now they have six G. What does that do, give you a deeper look into someone's skin? Okay. So he's confusing, you know five G with the camera on your phone right. Right. I mean that kind of thing.

He just doesn't get it, you know what I mean? He doesn't understand the simplest things anymore. Right? So you can see what the chain of association was. Okay. Five G is a technical, you know, upgrade for phones. Of course, he had nothing to do with introducing 5G. That's a just a grandiose lie. Now they have six G. And what does that mean? You're going to have a hyper, you know, accurate, I mean, camera they have they're just two technologies that do with phones, but. they have nothing to do with each other. Right? Right. Oh, goodness. So so what if you were predicting man,

what would you predict for. the year ahead as the president hits 80? Well, I think I think. I don't see how we avoid some real catastrophic outcomes here. So here we are. We have the president. One of the things that I think has confounded. people is how he's become so friendly with people. that were traditionally thought of as our enemies, and in particular, Vladimir Putin, he who he seems to think he's.

he's corralled into his camp and he can do deals with him, even though he appears by supporting Russia to be undoing 80 years. worth of essentially deterrence using NATO in Europe. And we're seeing a very profound shift in the global order. Is that also a symptom of grandiosity, that he thinks he can always, best Vladimir Putin or XI Jinping?

Well, you know, we almost might need a whole other show to talk about this. On booked, booked. Now, I think with his grandiosity, he doesn't like to think of himself. as Putin's poodle. So I think he like to kind of posture that he was going. to win this Nobel Peace Prize and everyone was going to listen to him. And, you know, he's made peace in seven places. And, you know, now FIFA's giving him a peace prize. Which, by the way, is one thing. I loved about the FIFA Peace Prize, aside from the fact that it's totally fake. and just there to, stroke his ego is that he grabs the medal,

he puts it around his own neck, you know, like Napoleon crowning himself Emperor. Another example of his grandiosity. But but the thing is. Is that so? Yes. I think he imagined that somehow he was going to, you know, be the big peacemaker in the big brouhaha. And of course, Putin, you know, played him. But I don't think that we can ignore this, you know, traitorous collusion between Trump and our greatest enemy. and that is the reason that he's destroying NATO and the 70 year.

alliance that has kept Russia contained because he's working with Russia. I mean, it's really not complicated. Is he working with Russia, or does he recognize in. someone like Putin, Aussie shaping, who are, you know, who had a completely different political system? Does he recognize them as strong men. as he's often referring to them an in so it. and in so doing sort of projecting what he would like for himself.

Yeah. No I think he identifies with strong man and he wants to be one. No. To be sure. I mean, that's why he's, you know, had some kind of love affair with Kim Jong un and, you know, talk about love letters that they were, you know, passing back and forth. But I think what people need to understand is Trump's connection. to Russia goes back decades. In the 80s, Roger Stone was talking about running him for president. And we have intelligence reports of the people in Russia. thinking that they were developing him in the 80s. Okay. Well, on that note, Doctor John Gartner, we we walk confidently into 2026.

I eyes open for the symptoms you've told us to look out for. And we will see you back again very soon. I hope. I'll be happy too. Happy to see you again. I always enjoy talking to you. All right, well, you know, let's see what happens. Let's see what happens. I love talking to Doctor John Gardner, because I love his medical terms.

and his ability to physically understand what's going on that manifests, mentally. and the lack of sleep, the disinhibited behavior, the mania. It's all fascinating. And as he points out, we can see it going on. This is not something that feels like it's being hidden from us. Donald Trump is one of the most transparent presidents. that we can think of, certainly in living memory.

He's always available, he's always talking, he's always in front of the camera. And of course, the flip side of that is we can see exactly. what's going on with him. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us on YouTube. You can join the Daily Beast community where you get extra content. That's exclusive for members. You can become a Beast Tier member. And don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast itself, where we keep you up. to date with minute by minute, nanosecond by nanosecond developments.

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