White Lotus' Deepest Secrets Revealed

- Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Joanna Cole's Chief Content Officer of the Daily Beast. - And I'm Samantha Bee. - What am I the Chief Content Officer of this week? Presidential physicals, perhaps? - Would you like to examine President Trump? - Would I want to be a fly on the wall? Both yes and no. - Do you think he actually does any of the physical stuff. that you're required to do? Do you like count to 10 backwards?

- Absolutely not. I mean, he used to take the cognitive tests, but I would imagine he would be fearful of that now. I mean, if I'm fearful of it in menopause, he's got to be scared. - Yeah, well, his last doctor but one said. that he'd just been ordered what to write, right? Which was that he was in tremendously good health. - He's quite a specimen. - Well, I will say he's got a ton of energy. for a man his age, he's got a ton of energy.

I just wish there was some more women around him. that weren't Laura Luma. - I wish for that so deeply. I wish that he would direct all of that vibrant energy. toward making the world a better place and also America. However, ha ha ha ha ha. - Okay, dream on. Every week we focus on the people and the stories. that we're obsessed with at the Daily Beast. Last week we had our first live show with Don Lemon. at one of New York's hottest members club, Zero Bond.

It was fun. - It was very fun. I didn't know what to expect, but it was actually, it was great. - Well, and I noticed that you and Don. both ordered a margarita at which point I thought, "You know what, I'll have a tequila.". And I thought it was even more fun doing it with alcohol. - I don't really drink all that much. So even a sip of a beverage loosens me tremendously, but I have to be very careful because I don't really drink.

When I do, I immediately start slurring. and I become like just like a lush in some kind of-. - I did not notice you slurring. - In a novel. - I did not notice you slurring. - Thank God. Well, I didn't get there. I didn't, but it would have not taken too much. - Well, I did notice you drank the margarita. - I did. It was delicious. It was very good. They have good bar staff there. And I got through half a tequila with a big rock, which is my favorite drink. So this week we're back in the studio.

and we've got an interview with the executive producer. of the show, everybody is talking about. In fact, I think that White Lotus might have eclipsed. Donald Trump as the biggest conversation stopper this week. because we had the finale on Sunday. - Well, we're also desperate to talk about something. that doesn't feel totally dreadful. So I agree with you. I couldn't, if somebody was open to having a conversation. about the White Lotus, I went there with them. and I intend to do the same thing today.

because I really did, I enjoy it so tremendously. You know what I love? Content for adults. - Content for adults. - It's nice. - I thought that, first of all, how much do we love Jason Isaacs so much, even though he's a corrupt businessman. And I did find the death of Chelsea upsetting. - I found it very upsetting. - Dear innocent Chelsea. Pure, as my daughter would say, pure. - Pure gold-dinging Chelsea. (laughing). With those lovely teeth. - How dare you?

- I think she got her teeth into something in that show. But because we can't stop checking out our 401ks, we're joined by Daily Beast executive editor, Hugh Doctey, to help us unpack the tariffs and the stock market. and whether iPhones made in America really would cost. $45,000. - $45,000 the price keeps going up. - Can I just tell you, I bought a new iPhone. about six weeks ago. I'm still transferring the apps onto it. Such a disruptive nightmare. I absolutely hate it. But the thing that I found very confusing was,

according to my Verizon contract, I should have been able to get the iPhone free. 'cause every two years, according to my contract, of course, when I go in there to try and make it happen, it doesn't happen. And I end up dropping $1,500 on the new iPhone. So God knows what it's gonna cost after tariffs. - Yeah, I have no idea. I just updated myself, so I feel good. about that conversation. - Well, you're gonna need. to sell me a comment by then. - I will do that. Now, we did have, we had a guest. who was supposed to be on the podcast this week,

and then he called in sick and I have to say that. it's not a problem that that happened, but I am a little discombobulated. And I'm kind of crabby in a very New York way, which is to say that when people play the accordion, like on the subway, I'm just like, absolutely not. And I get off the subway and wait for the next. - I cannot imagine. This morning, I also took the subway. and the woman opposite me opened a bottle of pills. and I'm not making this up. Put like probably 20 pills into her open palm,

palmed them into her mouth. and then slugged them down with a cappuccino. - What color were they? - Well, they were double colors. So half were red and half were white. And I thought, is this some kind of vitamin regimen. or is this a sort of, you know, Jason Isaac's Timothy Ratcliffe moment? It was disconcerting. - I don't know what your childhood was like, but when I was growing up. and we were playing with dolls and stuff,

we would always buy tic-tacs. and then pretend that we were popping pills. It was just not, probably not okay. But in the seventies, we all would like get a cocktail, like a rocks glass, put rocks in it and some water. and just slug a bunch of it, like just dramatically. - When did that behavior come about? - In a, like in a penoir. Yeah, like seven years old in a penoir, popping pills with a rocks glass. Anyways, listen, I have a gift for you.

Because I was in France. - It's so nice. - Yeah, because I was in France. and I got you something that I know you treasure. and I'm excited for you. - Oh, I'm very excited. - The box is a little bashed up. because I carried it around for a long time. (all gasping). - Thank you so much. Miracle cream from France. Very difficult to get here. You can't get the French recipe here. 'cause I'm sure it wouldn't pass the FDA. - No, it's definitely, that is chock full. That's just a two, but--. - Did you get one for yourself? - Of course, Blacenta. Of course I did. - Yeah, just smother it everywhere. - Great, I'm slugging.

You know what slugging is, right? - No, what is slugging? - It's when you put grease all over your face. like a slug and then you go to bed. and you grease up your sheets. - Okay, so I will tell you that I got a gift this week. from the friend of one of my sons. who's gone into the beauty business. And he's created a beauty product. He sent me two tubs. I'm gonna bring one in for you. I'm wondering if you can smell it from here. - What is it? - Do I smell different? Does the studio feel different? - Well, now that you mention it, hold on.

I'm intoxicated by my onset this morning, so it's hard for me to tell, but--. - You're looking very lady, by the way. - Thank you. - It's not my oddly. Maybe we're dressing in sync. It's kind of strange. What are you, what are you, what are you? - So I have, I smothered all my or slugging. or whatever you call it. A new cream called Boom, B-U-H-M, I think it'll be H-U-M, which is actually made from, uh-huh, RFK juniors, favorite substance, beef tallow. - So I guess--.

- They've tried to take the, they've tried to take the scent out of it. It still smells, Jamie, I'm talking to you. It still smells a little bit beefy, but I actually, it does actually seem. to leave your skin feeling soft. - So your question to me really was, do you smell meat? - Yes. - Do you smell meat? - Exactly, what am I? - Yeah. - I don't smell meat. - Good, okay, that's good. - So I'll try to get a little closer. - So I need to absorb the smell. - Wow, I wanna, I wanna smear myself with beef.

That sounds wonderful. - I will bring you in the tub next week. Also, are we, I think we're dressed particularly well. We're dressed very corporate lady today, the two of us. - Just very lady. - We've got tea with the OG. - We do, with Gloria Steinem. - With Gloria Steinem. - Later. - Yeah. - That's pretty exciting. We did kind of do a lady thing, which reminds me that someone indicated, someone suggested to us in a last, yesterday, I think, that we should make a video.

and apply to be on the Amazing Rice. - Oh, that's an excellent idea. - And the fact that we're just--. - I've never watched it, I'm happy to apply. - Just like tonally kind of dressing as twinsies, makes me think that it could really work. - We should totally do that. - Oh, we should. - And we should say, if anybody sees Andrew Cuomo. out on the campaign trail today, they should take a photo and send it to us. because he's told us he's ill, which is why he's not sitting there. - He told us he was ill, so he better be ill. - Yeah, 'cause if he's out shaking hands.

- Oh my God, if he's out at us, we should be able to do that tomorrow, eating a pizza slice with a knife and fork. for many, many reasons. Someone needs to photograph that and let us know. - Should we invite Huey Docherty. on to talk to us about what on earth is going on. at Mar-a-Lago, the White House, and Tiananmen Square? - Tell me everything, you get the hell in here. - Welcome back. We're joined now by our executive editor, Huey Docherty.

Join us. The world just gets crazier and crazier. Can you be our finance, bro, for a minute? Do you need a Patagonia vest? You always look so smart in your suit. And as we say in the office, they talk to the jacket. They talk to the shirt, they talk to the jacket, they talk to the tie. Michael Daley says that they talk to the tie, which is why we try and encourage our interns. to look smart, Liam. I'm thinking about you. Can you help us decipher the stock market. and what on earth is going on?

- I can say to you, Joanna, Sam, thank you for having me here. Crack open a Pilsner, down 20 pills, knock back a cappuccino, and get ready for a wild ride. - How much wilder can it get? I just got a knot in my neck. I can feel it. It's like an egg that costs $18. - That's imported, and therefore it will go up by 26%. The stock market is going on,

broadly it's been on its way down, and we're recording this on liberation day plus seven, for those who are counting. - Yeah, it's been that long. - And there's been five days of trading, and the stock market has lost, as we all know, quite a lot of value. And even on the way down, it looks a bit like a heart rate monitor, but not in a good way. - Right, a heart rate monitor, that's literally monitoring a heart attack, and you're not sure if they're gonna survive. - It's been on liberation day, so we've all been liberated from sleeping well. - Your hair looks very good.

- Thank you so much. - I'm just saying, just to interrupt, but we have to enjoy the small things too. - I gave it a little fluff. - Yeah, it looked very good. - We have to live in the moment. - We have to live in the moment, because there is nothing else. Also, Donald Trump lives in the moment. - Well, Donald Trump is the one person. who doesn't seem to be having a heart attack about this. He has tweeted things like, "Be cool, and good time to buy.". - Yes, and Hank tough. - And Hank tough, everybody. - Hank tough, everybody. - And be a panic. Don't be a panic.

I don't, I truly don't understand that one. - We don't yet know of anybody who's literally a panic. See if it's a genetically modified version. of a Republican and a Pelican. But Trump is trying to look unbothered. He is looking unbothered. He is giving long speeches, and he's talking about how this is what he intended. And there are people in MAGA. who are saying this is great. This is what they voted for. Now, did everybody who voted for Trump vote for that?

It's not looking that way. - Nobody knows anything. It is that wonderful William Goldman expression, which Derek Thompson actually used. to describe this in "The Atlantic" this week. It's chaos. It's chaos. And the thing that I find very amusing is the idea. that Trump strutting around saying, "Oh, every single country, every single world leader is calling me.". And you realize that his obsession. with being the center of attention. and driving attention is now global. And I remember Michael Wolf saying this to me,

you know, the author of "All or Nothing.". It's like you build up a tolerance to alcohol or caffeine. He builds up a tolerance to the amount of attention he needs. And he needs it now on a global scale, and he's got it. And he claims that world leaders are calling him, you know, 50 world leaders called. because they need his attention. - Do we think that that is true? - It doesn't feel that does not ring true to me, but do you, are you hearing that that's true? - Well, I don't know. - We have no way of knowing. - We're seeing, there's something in that direction. Joanna, you mentioned Michael Wolf,

and I feel duty-bound to mention the White House always. when Michael Wolf was mentioned, describes him as a lying sack of excrement. - It's true they do, but he does talk. to a lot of people there. - And he absolutely talks to a lot of people. And one of the things that's very clear. is that they might not be speaking to world leaders. They are speaking to each other, and they are feuding with each other. And the feuding is dominating what's going on in DC. - So what are the camps? We've got Elon versus Peter Navarro,

and Elon, I mean, was exing or tweeting on Saturday. He's since deleted his tweets, which is always amusing when they do that too. You just feel this sense of men out of control. The women have completely retreated, apart from Susie Wiles versus Laura Luma, but Melania's not there, Ivanka's not there, even Tiffany is not there anymore. - If I can quote the White House press secretary here, Caroline Levitt said, "Boys will be boys.".

And that's what appears to be happening. There are a lot, there are rival camps, and quite how they divide up is, you know, it's like one of those, it's like Squid Game or something. - Right, so moving, alive is right here. So Elon Musk is without doubt a free trader. He's not in favor of tariffs, and he's been very clear about that. He's also not in favor of the trade advisor, Peter Navarro, who is in very much in favor of tariffs. And that's exploded into the open on X.

And on television, Peter Navarro. is a consistent television performer, and he's himself an unusual background for a Republican. He was a very left-wing, left-of-center Democrat. He's got Harvard PhD. And he is an unusual character. who's not described as somebody that is credible by other aides. from the first Trump administration. He then went to prison for defying an order. to testify in front of Congress.

When in prison, he boned up on tariffs, he watched CNBC round the clock, and he came out refreshed, renewed, and ready to fight China. On the other side of this equation--. I'm writing that sentence down. When in prison, he boned up on tariffs. I'm actually writing that down. because that is just so emblematic of this administration. People do stay in prison, that you get a lot of time to--. When in prison--. You can get all done, Sam. He boned up on tariffs. If you're rounded up, you've got to make use of it.

I'm never going to forget that you said this. OK, go ahead. Sorry. So what were you boned up on, Sam? I mean, you're in prison. Tariffs! That's what you do. Come on. Thank you. It does look like Peter Navarro and Elon Musk. have gone at it in public. Behind the scenes are our national correspondent, David Gardner, and his unmissable swamp email newsletter, which I would urge everybody to subscribe to, to find out about the secrets of DC. He's got a story about Howard Lutnick, and Howard Lutnick has been out there.

like nobody else talking about tariffs. and talking about how this is going to bring trade. and manufacturing back to the United States. As the swamp reports, people are beginning to tire of this. inside the Trump circles. And Lutnick told an audience of high-powered executives. that he speaks truth to power. And the reaction that we heard from a source inside these circles. was only if he says what the powerful want to hear,

and they mean Donald Trump. So he's in one camp. Peter Navarro is with him, but they. would certainly be willing to split if that was needed. Elon Musk is another. And Scott Besant is almost in a fourth camp, that he is out there pushing the case for tariffs. He says that they're non-negotiable, but that there can be negotiation. And I would invite you to try and follow that logic. Sam, maybe you need to bone up on how you can be. open to negotiation. - When in prison, she boned up on tariffs.

- I love the idea that Howard Lutnick is saying, he's one of the few to speak truth to power, and also that he hired Elon and told Elon what to do. - Yes, that's another revelation that's in the swamp this week, that he described himself as hiring Elon. And I think we can all guess that really, Trump would say that he's hired Elon, and there's only one star in Trump world. And I doubt that Elon would regard himself. as being hired in any way. - And certainly not by Howard Lutnick. - Elon has a net worth, even though it's coming down this week,

of about 150 times that of Howard Lutnick. So when it comes to billionaire's competition. - It's got a cushion. It's got a bit of a cushion. It seems like the only person. who everybody should be talking to right now is Laura Loomer. - Laura Loomer. - Laura Loomer. - Laura Loomer is back. And I thought the whole point of someone like Suzy Wiles, who were constantly being told is the one. that is running the place with great discipline,

was supposed to keep Laura Loomer out of there. And somehow Laura Loomer got back into the Wildhouse. - Elbows up Suzy Wiles. Elbows up. - Well, Laura Loomer and Suzy Wiles. have both said that they like each other, but they haven't both said that they want each other. to be in the same place. And Laura Loomer, just to give everybody. a quick recap of her career, she's been a 9/11 truther. She's been a vocal Trump supporter. She's an unsuccessful run as the Republican candidate.

for the district that Mar-a-Lago is in, because she wanted to be Trump's own Congresswoman. And--. - That's ambition for you. - It is ambition. And she now is trying to get a government contract. to do security background, security and background checks on new hires. But she's been freelancing at that anyway. She went in to see Trump on a liberation day. I'll just remind you of that great day. when we were liberated, Sam. After he'd liberated the world, or America,

or people from their 401ks, he went inside and he met Laura Loomer. and he listened to her reservations. about some senior people in the National Security Council. and they were liberated from their employment. at the National Security Council as a result. So Laura Loomer's gone in and given this display of power. and Suzy Wiles, who is known to oppose Laura Loomer. in all shapes and forms, has been powerless to stop it. So there's a real sense of this discipline. that Suzy Wiles was supposed to bring,

beginning to crack at the edges. and Elon Musk tweeting or exing. that Peter Navarro is, among other things, a moron. and dumber than a sack of bricks. And even a fairly horrible slur shows. that there's a beginning of the end, perhaps, of Suzy Wiles' appearance of power. We've just been liberated from all reason. It's just untethered. He doesn't show any stress. because he's at the center of attention.

and that's what fuels him and gives him energy. He's the star of the TV show. Yeah. And that feels great. Every time I walk past Hugh's office, I can hear Donald Trump's voice just booming out. of one of the four televisions that's on. I hate to say that every time we talk about him, I get a stomach ache, but I do. I actually get a cramp on my stomach. It's just... Well, it's lucky that pharmaceuticals. aren't being tariffed yet, Sam. Yet? Gotta go stock up on roll-aids.

The ones that have been made in China. and Trump has promised special pharmaceutical tariffs as well. So enjoy your French face cream while you can and you ask. I'm going to be using it in tiny quantities. You might have to pay Sam a tariff. just for giving you that price. That's just going to be me on the subway. just like hoovering pills of all different shapes and sizes. It's a show. Don't let them while they're cheap. All right, Hugh, thank you so much for coming in.

and whipping Sam up into a frenzy. Yes. Thank you, as always. Thank you for having me. More to come. We're back and we're joined by the executive producer. of the show of the week, the month, the year, the White Lotus. Dave Bernad is also the executive producer of huge hits. like the Brilliant Jury Duty, Superstore, and White House Plumbers. And we are so lucky he was able to come and answer.

all of our most pressing questions. We're also joined for the first time. He's making his pod a debut and we're sharing. We're sharing. Like middle schoolers. Yeah, exactly. Like middle schoolers. We're sharing our headphones. Kevin Fallon, who is the Beast's obsessed editor, and he is obsessivo about the White Lotus. Dave, is there any merch you can send us? Because we do feel like we need some merch. Yes, we're very dedicated fans over here. I'm going to-- yes, Joanna, give me your--.

give me the address. I'll send you guys something. Yes. OK. I want to say, though, I'm a little offended. You didn't mention our hits show, the bold type. I was going to ask you how you know each other. So you-- OK, so you worked on the bold type together. So you've known each other for a long time. We've known each other for a long time. Dave is one of my closest friends. I would say. And over the years, we have given each other endless dating. advice. Is that fair, Dave? It's fair. It's just big wine schools. It's a big question. Dave is my plus one when I'm in LA.

Oh, fantastic. Well, when he's not on a full-season show, that is. When he's not--. Yeah. Dave, I'm so sad that the show is over. I actually don't know what to do with myself. Weeping. Weeping, that's all right. Yes. Please tell me that you're already in progress with the next--. I know you're not already in progress with the next season, but I want you to be so badly so that I can watch it again. really fast. I think he probably is. OK. We are-- I mean, spiritually, we're--. I think we're in progress. Spiritually. We're going to take a little break. And then this is-- I mean, as you notice, I have no voice,

which is probably a result of the stress of season three. But we'll be getting back into it very soon. OK. OK. God bless. I do need to be an extra. I'm so annoyed, because Dave said to me--. Right. --when they were doing the one in Italy, he said, come down. You can be an extra. I'm sitting in all the background shots. And I didn't do it. And I don't know why I didn't do it. You'll think that's why we're going to sit in the snow. mountains of Switzerland or something. Yeah. Where is the next one going to be shot, Dave? Yes. Don't know yet, but I would bet a lot of money.

it won't be in the snow, because Mike White does not. like the cold, but you never know. Anything's possible. Yeah. We're not sure yet where the next season will be. You know what? I heard Scott Galloway's voice in this season of the White. Lotus. So Joanna, that's going to be you next time. I hope so. I hope so. Well, where do we begin? So many questions. So many questions. OK, first of all, what does it feel. like to be at the center of something. that everyone is talking about? Have you lost your voice because you were screaming.

from partying so hard? I wish. I wish it was that interesting. I-- yeah, I mean, it's a shock, truly, that people have embraced the show in the way they have. And we started with a very humble beginning. So it was kind of this COVID experiment. And I think at one point they even. wanted us to shoot kind of like on Zoom. and nobody in the same room. And it started kind of very small. And so Sunday night for the finale, HBO put together this kind of finale event.

And I was there. It was truly surreal, like a room of 1,000 people watching. finale panel. And we never, ever have guessed this is where the show would. end up. Right. I had my own-- I had a very specific theory about how. this season was going to end. And I shared it with Joe Manna. And I'm glad to say that I was wrong. But I thought that as Tsunami was going to--. It was pretty nihilistic. --kill-- it was totally nihilistic. I thought that all of the storylines would resolve. And then Tsunami would come and kill everybody. And that was my version of--.

That is so dumb. Is that dark? Yeah, you're a catastrophist. I am a catastrophist. It's the only doctor that the actual finale was. I know. I know. This really speaks to who I am as a person. What comes first for you? Is it the location? Or is it the idea? Like, what is the first step in the next iteration of the show? Yeah, I think its theme is always the first idea. And I think, you know, season two, we knew it was going to be more about the sexual politics. of men and women. And so as we kind of were-- we took a step back.

We knew we wanted to do Europe. And kind of where thematically with that makes sense--. France, Italy. So we went and scouted both France and Italy. And then we found-- we just found a hotel we fell in love. with in Taramina and Sicily. And I think-- and then organically, you know, the real story is that Mike and I, we were in Palermo in Sicily. And we were on a tour. And we'd seen all these heads everywhere. And they just kind of like--. it's like a head of a Moorish, a Moor soldier. And we asked the tour guy, like, what are these heads? And they told us this very interesting story.

about this soldier who had come to Sicily. and was having an affair with this Sicilian woman. And then she finds out that he has a wife and family back home. And so she chops his head off. Wow. And that's what those heads kind of represent. It's just like this intense jealousy. And so it was like a perfect way into season two. In season three, we knew we was going. to be on Eastern philosophy and religion. And so we kind of were focused on Japan and Thailand.

And as we kind of went around Thailand. and kind of fell in love with just kind of the Buddhism, the people, and the real story, which we've talked about. in the press already, which is we were in the north of Thailand. And Mike-- in Thailand, it's a very witchy place. Like, you kind of feel it as you're there, and especially in the north. And Mike had gotten sick. He got bronchitis. And he went to the hospital. And there was on this thing called a nebulizer. It's a really strong steroid. And he basically was up for two nights.

And he hallucinated the season. And I saw him the next morning, the scout fan. And he basically said, I had this vivid hallucination. And that is pretty much what we shot was his nebulizer. I need that nebulizer. I need that nebulizer. You need to bottle that and sell it. But some branding on it. Wait, let us brand it. Everybody's going to have that. In Silicon Valley, everybody will be nebulizing. That's how we imagine every episode of this podcast. We try to hallucinate it the night before.

And then it just comes to life. So did you become more spiritual when you were there? Yeah, I mean, it's hard not to--. I think I was there for 11 months, almost a year. And I think just Buddhism as a practice, as a religion, is a very beautiful idea. And it's such a gentle culture, nonviolent. And this idea of-- there's an acceptance, I think, that is that Thailand is known for.

And a lot of that kind of permeates out of Buddhism. And so I think being there for that long. and kind of-- especially when you're. on the other side of the world. And so when you wake up, everyone you know. is falling asleep. So most of your day is spent alone without your phone, communicating with people. And so I think there's a lot of time. for existential thought and exploration. And that's really what the show is about, obviously, this season. And so I think everyone have their own experience.

And it was a weird thing going on this season. A lot of us had various health issues during the season. And we all at some point ended up in the hospital. I ended up in the hospital. And so I think a lot of the cast ended up in the hospital. And very weird kind of random stuff. And so I think it was that plus just being. in a very spiritual place for that long, it was impossible not to have some sort of deeper kind. of conversation with yourself, which is what the show, this season really is about.

It's about identity in the prison that we find ourselves in. And that we create for ourselves. And each character is kind of working through their own kind. of prison of their identity. I think what I love about it is that every moment, there's no moment wasted in the show. Everything is so intentional. And even the way that-- because I really am just a huge fan. Like, so I read-- I'm reading all the articles about it. And you all talk about it in such a grounded reality.

I understand that it's very grueling to make a TV show. And the way that you're all talking about it. is helping me to understand it. And I actually really appreciate that. Because I don't like it when people come back from set. And they're like, we're all best friends. And everything was perfect. And it was just like a great big vacation. We all learned to surf. Like, I like talking about things. I like knowing what the work is like. And you've been in the news because your composer. is having such an interesting--. I'm sorry to bring this up, but like your musical composer.

is saying things about the show that are shocking to me, actually. Like, it seems like there was conflict there. Can you talk about that? Can you describe that a little bit? Yeah. I mean, that's a really--. him doing that interview kind of blindsided us, to be honest. Anytime you're taking on a creative venture, there's creative conversations. I mean, what was so surprising for us. was that there was nothing interesting that. happened in that experience other than us giving notes.

to a collaborator, which is the process. in every creative venture. And Mike White, who is a true genius--. and not only is he a creative genius, but he's the most kind, awful collaborator there is. And as someone who kind of was there for every moment. of that experience with our composer, you kind of read this interview and I'm like, what the fuck is he talking about? What the hell?

Genuinely, because I'm like, what the fuck is this guy. talking about? And Mike could not have been more thoughtful on how. he approached Christo, who of course--. Christo is an incredibly talented person. And I think what--. Mike did an interview yesterday, I think he put it past. You realize this guy thought we were a bunch of morons. and respect us. And I think in his interview, he refers to me. as a hysterical producer. Oh, that's you. Oh, that's you. The entire process of trying to make the show in post.

with Christo was one of trying to kind of pulling teeth. and having to kind of resist any urge of getting worked up. because he just would not listen to us. and actually treat us like we were morons. And if the show was for him, as if he created the show, we were just off spending two years making the show that. so he could--. it's all about his genius. Right, right. He made it all about himself. And it's funny, it feels like a very petty, high school.

conversation. And in fact, The New York Times is writing about it. in the midst of an economic meltdown. Sure. I don't-- it was kind of confusing. But it was kind of hurtful because I. think we went out of our way to kind of be good collaborators. to him, who was never a good collaborator to Mike or us. And I just want to say one thing about it, which I think--. and obviously, we're fortunate that people even care. to write about something that is so not interesting. There's nothing interesting that happened in that story.

Other than Christo had one point of view, we had another point of view. He left, we fired him. Like, whatever the he said she said is. Is that it all comes down to this idea of the theme song, which people were so excited about. And really what happened in the third season. is Christo presents a song to us that was very different. from the first two seasons. Right. Right. My theory on that is the second season--. sorry, this isn't so nice. It's not so uninteresting. I think it's interesting.

I think it's very interesting. So the second season, the song was. a nominated for an Emmy, because it. was unable to be nominated for an Emmy. because it was too similar to season one. OK. There's very specific rules. Yes. And then if the theme song is similar--. so same-steam theme song can't win for multiple seasons. So it was this whole issue. We thought-- we were there and we were fighting. with the Academy to get it nominated. It was a nominee. So he presents in the third season. a song that is completely different for the first two. seasons.

Right. We gave notes. He made adjustments. And finally, he's like, this is what I want it to be. So we sent HBO. HBO did not like it. They had thoughts. And I think there was this desire. to make it similar to the first two seasons, which people. obviously responded to, which Christo refused to do. And so ultimately what happened--. Mike and I talked about it in HBO. And it caused me a lot of drama. Like, I got into a lot of fights with HBO about it. And ultimately we said, Christo as an artist.

has earned the right to make the theme song what. he wants it to be. So then I on email wrote to Christo and said, HBO's notes, here are their notes, here are thoughts. But you have earned the right to make the theme song whatever. you want to make it. He responded basically that they don't know what they're. talking about, blah, blah, blah. We said, great. So that was the song that we went forward with. And something's been confused in this conversation, which. for me, I take personally because people.

are attacking Mike or writing his article about Mike. We had nothing to do with the theme song. That is Christo's arena. And we as collaborators respect Christo as an artist. and said, great, this is what you want. We support you. So that is why the theme song in season three changed. That is what Christo wanted. And then at some point, the song comes out. And there's a negative response. And Christo calls me and says, hey, I have a great idea. I'm going to give people what they want. Here's a two and a half minute song, blah, blah, blah.

And we spoke about it internally. And we said, you know what? We're not going to just change it because people. are complaining. That feels like a weak move, right? So we said, no, we're going to stick with the theme song. that we presented. And eventually people grew to love it. And that's how we are now. But just to say it like, I'm very defensive of Mike. And I was there. I lived every experience. And he's a fucking asshole to go out in the press. and make it all about himself, where. there's 1,000 people who've worked really hard to make.

this show. And the finale is coming out. And he's trying to trash us in the press and drag us. For no reason. We never spoke about it. We never talked about firing him. We never talked about the drama of changing. We never blamed him. We never talked about it. And we never talked about it. It was a fucking asshole during the whole process. And then he just kind of, for whatever reason, did multiple interviews trying to trash us. Well, this is the perfect time for the two of you. to do the [HUMMING]. I know. Yeah. [HUMMING]. Yeah. Obviously, like, in "Hying Thrive,".

yes, it would have been great to have all that in the theme song. But it comes down to, Christo, as an artist, earned the right to make the song he wanted to make. And we support it. I shouldn't have named all that for me therapists. I appreciate you listening. We love to be therapists for you. Of course. Our biggest dream. You can tell it's personal on the music. My biggest question for you, because I've counted, and we've written in over 100 stories about the white lotus. for the daily basis sheet. Wow. So my first question is, what is your check of a clear for that?

But also, I know you've also experienced this with jury duty. And what is it like when a show that you maybe never expected. to be this kind of water cooler thing that "The New York Times". is interviewing this composer, and you're now speaking to this. about--. what is it like when that happens at the show that was just. a small thing that you felt really deeply about explodes.

in this way? Yeah, it's very surreal. And I think Mike and I, we're both used to making shows or movies. that are critics love and that really find this white audience. Even like the show "The Bull" type that Joy and I made, it was a great--. I'm very proud of that show, and critics loved it, and never had a massive audience. And that's nine times out of 10 the experience. So for us, I think, for both jury duty and white lotus, it's kind of, again, feels surreal.

It feels like this little thing that you're spending years. of your life on, and it feels like this little secret that you. have. And you can feel proud of it. And we've all worked on things that we think are great, and don't find an audience for whatever reason. And so when you have the good fortune, the universe kind of comes together, and people find the thing that you really believe in, it's--. you feel incredibly grateful, but also it feels surreal. And so sometimes you feel defensive when you're being. attacked in your times. It's like this-- it's all the feelings.

It's a compliment, though, that everyone just. wants to write everything they possibly can, because they're just so obsessed with the show. Everyone's like, what more can I write? What more can I say? And how do you keep from making yourself a suicide. smoothie from Timothy Ratliff when people complain about things. like, nothing's happened this season, or it's going slow. I mean, I can't imagine more things happening than actually. happened in the season. So what is that like for you to hear those complaints?

Yeah, I mean, I hate this term, but I'm going to use it. It feels like you're being gaslit, because you're like--. because I was in a car with someone the other day, and I was talking to my friend. And I was like, what do you mean nothing's happening? Like, season one, literally nothing. happens other than a robbery in the fifth episode. That's all that happens. It was a Cunny-Bernie breakfast, and I loved it. Like, I would watch that for years. And I love it. And I said to my friend the other day, nothing happens. Two brothers jerk each other off. One friend has sex with the other friend's love interest,

and then the other friend goes home with a Russian guy, and then almost gets beat up. And it feels like it feels confusing, but again, it's better than nobody talking about the show. and nobody caring. So I think Mike and I have each other in those moments. that kind of call each other and kind of go, you know. But again, we're incredibly proud of the show. And I think the thing too is you spend all this time. and you dedicate your life.

And I think what people don't realize that Mike, especially, he works on the seven days a week, and it is his entire life. And he's gone, and we're both gone for a year and a half, two years, and you want people, and you're trying to say something, I think, especially with white lotus, and there's a real intention behind everything. And you just want it to land. You want people to kind of feel that. And sometimes they don't, sometimes they do. And as artists, I guess you have to live with that. You know what show I really miss?

- Mike's is, I don't know him at all, but Enlightenment. - Enlightenment. - Enlightenment. - I am enlightened. - Lord earned. - I will watch that show. - The gay fan base. for Enlightenment is we hold it up, we cherish it, we rage with it. - It is a jaw box. - The thing I find interesting is that neither Dave nor Mike. have become assholes themselves. It's so often you see friends on this trajectory. and they hit big and then they become monsters.

Neither of you are monsters. And that's hugely important. And then the other thing I think is that it's, I think the only show I can think of recently. that's actually had people watching in real time, like people I knew were like, what are you doing on Sunday night? - The water cooler, it's back. - Nine o'clock, we're sitting down. It's back and it shows you the craving. for a communal experience. And how few shows actually have the pulling power to do that. - Yeah, I had friends who were texting me like, I'm running late, I'm gonna miss nine PM.

I'm like, it's fine, but it's crazy. that this is now come full circle. We're back to that like you have to be watching it live. - We need it. Carrie's monologue at the end sent me and Sam Rockwell. You know, they're just like moments of stand up. - We must talk about Sam Rockwell. That was such genius casting. And there's been all sorts of stuff out there. that Woody Harrelson was supposed to have the role. Thank goodness you gave it to Sam Rockwell. Just tell us about that. - I wanna clarify that also, like,

Woody Harrelson's the best, he's a friend of ours, he's great, and he would have been amazing in the part, but really just to make sure it's clear, we had a close deal with Woody, we were doing it with Woody. Our schedule moved twice. Woody had a birthday party that he had moved twice. that was his family, great friends, and it was in Europe. And it got to the point where basically he's like, all these people have moved their lives twice. And I'm so sorry, but I just can't. do this to them again and I can't do the show. So that's why it didn't work out with Woody.

And Sam is amazing. Sam and I and Mike did a movie, we did a movie 20 years ago called "Gentlemen Broncos.". So we had known Sam for a long time. and it was just a coincidence that Leslie Bibb, his partner, was in the show this season. So as soon as we knew that Woody couldn't do it, Sam was our first idea and he was in South Africa. doing a movie. And his agent, Rhonda Price, was amazing. And Sam is someone who really loves to prepare. and he won't do anything half-assed.

So she's like, I don't know if there's enough time for him. to do it because he wants to prepare and he's like, we'll send it to him. So he read it and then he sends us this long voice note. to Mike and I and he's like, love it, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think there's enough time, so I don't think I can do it. And we're like, we're not going to let him pass. We're like, great, great, great, great, just. keep thinking about it. And then he's like, yeah, I'm not sure. We're like, great, great, great, just keep thinking about it. And eventually I think that monologue and that character.

got so in his head that he's like, OK, I have to do it. So he really kind of, to Sam's credit, I think he went out of his comfort zone. in terms of having the time to prepare. And I think there was only like a week or two. between finishing that movie and coming to Thailand. And he came and he was so prepared. and he's like, could not be a better human being, could not be better to work with. And we love Sam and he's brilliant in that scene.

Well, I thank you for that scene. I thank you for that image of him in the Leopard print. underwear during that orgy party. And I thank you for the Carrie Coon scene. that Sam just mentioned. That was one of the most beautiful monologues. about friendship that I've ever seen on TV. I rewatched it, I think, probably. a dozen times since the finale aired. It's such a beautiful, beautiful monologue. Yeah. I mean, Mike's a genius. And I think he just somehow he's an observer. of the human condition, I think. And he's always paying attention.

And I think that for me, I've been working with Mike. for a long time and there's no one that captures. the experience of what it is to be a human better than Mike. And I think that moment is very specific. and is specific about the story of the season. But it's also universal. And I think we all have moments where we feel that way, where we've spent our energy and dedicated our lives. to something, work, family, whatever. And then you kind of take stock of your experiences.

and you realize sometimes you're just, you're just happy to be there and be alive. and kind of be able to experience it all. Oh my God, you really have gone to this. If you really, I'm hearing a different kind of Dave Bernat. I mean, speaking of the human condition. and not to totally change the subject, but should Joanna and I go on the amazing race together? Yeah, we're thinking, should we do that? I mean, it sort of makes sense. I'll tell you, what am I life regret?

So Mike and I first met each other 20 years ago. We started talking, one of the first conversations we had. was about the amazing race. And then I said to him, like, we should apply to the amazing race together. We actually, we went out, we made a video, we were in matching blue velour jumpsuits, running around Brentwood, acting like--. Running around Brentwood. Mm-hmm, I'm excited. What country in our, editing the video,

and I edited the video, we like, you know, we like, we hand wrote the, our application. I went to Elsa Gundot, I dropped it in the box. Two weeks later, CBS calls us. in basically long story short, I got recast, eventually for Mike's dad. And 20 years later, it's one of my life regrets. I wish I had like fought for myself. Yep. You guys should definitely go. Mike went twice, amazing seasons of TV, him and his dad. And I think it's, that's like,

when he talks about that experience, it's like, you know, I think it's on his bucket list of, you know, best experiences of his life was going on the race. Okay, well, from your lips to God's ears, Joanna, let's do it. Now, Dave, I think you have a doctor's appointment. for your voice. So we have to let you go, but very grateful. that you gave us the time that you did, and many congrats and looking forward to seeing you soon. Thank you. I wanna say one last thing. Joanna, you're the best, I love you. I wanna say, I met Joanna randomly at a dinner.

I don't know, it was a 2014, 2015. I was, I was at home on my couch on a Wednesday night. My friend called me and said, I'm going to, I'm going to dinner, you wanna come join me at Soho House. I'm like, not really that interested. And he's like, I'm going with like 10 women. Like, yeah, I'll beat you. So I go up my car, I drive over to Soho House, and I get seated next to Joanna. And within 10 seconds of meeting her, she's asking me about my love life and like my sex life. and these crazy questions. And I'm just like, this woman is gonna be my, we're gonna be friends with the rest of our lives.

And so it's great to see all the things you're doing. Congratulations on everything. And look forward to seeing you soon. Good. All right. Well, that's nice of you. Thank you, Dave. And so much fun. And I will say, I went to Mike White, had a screening for his episode of "Survivor" at his house. And because we had had dinner a few times, but always in a small restaurant, I imagined Mike lived in, 'cause he's such a humble guy. I thought, oh, he probably lives. in a two bedroom apartment somewhere, you know,

kind of in Los Feliz or something. And we got to this magnificent house in Brentwood. with beautiful Christmas decorations, 'cause it was in December. And the entire of the Hollywood glitter arty. was there, it was extraordinary, including Angelina with all her children climbing all over her. So that was a fun day. Anyway, Dave, thank you very much. And can't wait to hear what season four holds.

Yes. Thank you. Good to see you guys. - If you have been, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, subscribe, comment, and share it with everyone you know. and everyone you don't know. - Everyone you know and don't know. I will not be here next week. - I know, boo-hoo. - But mind you're replacing me. So swift to replace me. - We are replacing you with Isaac Mizrahi. - Yes. - Who has a point of view on everything. - He does. He's going to be my replacement for a day.

where it went as I go off and do my show. - Well, just tell us exactly what you're doing. and why it's so important that you're missing the podcast. - We are talking about menopause. I'm doing my show, how to survive menopause. in multiple cities, going on a brief tour. - People are having menopause in other places. - I know, it's hard to believe. Well, I'll bring it to them. I'll give it to them. - You'll give it to them. - I'll initiate. It's infectious. - Do you think people would stay away. 'cause they might think it was infectious? - I think people will believe just about anything.

you tell them now. - That's true. Maybe you could have a vaccine like the MMR vaccine. In fact, you could tell people MMR stands for menopause. Menopause repulsion. - Oh my God. Don't forget to keep sending us those emails. to BeastPod@TheDailyBeast.com. Drop us a comment on YouTube. Johanna will get right back to you. Liquity split. - I didn't last week. I dropped the ball last week, but I will go back. If you're not a subscriber to The Daily Beast,

please subscribe. Just go to TheDailyBeast.com. - Yes, and as, thank you so much for today. This was a great bunch of conversations. I have a pit in my stomach. - Not over white lotus. - You know, when she was in prison, she brushed up on tariffs. Is that it? She boned up on tariffs. I'll never forget. Just get out there and as my muse is once again saying, rather inspirationally, be best. Be beast.

Be beast. That's the one. I knew I got it wrong.