What I Learned After RFK Jr. Sold Me Drugs: Author | The Daily Beast Podcast

Well, it's the one and only time in my life I ever bought cocaine. I was I was a boy from Nebraska. I went to Harvard. There was Bobby Kennedy, the celebrity in our class. He was early in his drug, using and dealing career, relatively. We got back to our dorm, and, I don't know, maybe we did our own lines then, and, and, so I get a call on the phone, the, of course, on the landlines. at the time and phone in my dorm room rang and he said, yeah, it's Bobby. Oh, hi.

He said, you took my straw man. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and we have a wonderful conversation for you today with our guest, the writer, the humorist, the former media soothsayer Kurt Anderson. And as Donald Trump was surfing the wave of fame that would land him. astride the world stage, Kurt has been chronicling him. and the functioning of America, as he calls it, in multi color detail.

I urge you to stay for the entirety of this conversation. because we start with the very compelling scene of him purchasing cocaine. from Robert F Kennedy Jr when they were both at Harvard. together, and I demand every detail of that transaction. We have a total recovered memory session, and that somehow feels like the. perfect Prolog to the America that Kurt has been writing about ever since. Now, before we get into it, just some background on Kurt, who is, of course, the co-founding editor of spy magazine, the brilliantly.

satirical magazine that first labeled Donald. Trump a short fingered vulgarian. And Kurtz, the creator and the longtime host of the now defunct. but brilliant show for 20 years, studio 360. He's written by selling novels, cultural autopsies and political takedowns, including You Can't Spell America Without Me, which is a delicious collaboration with Alec Baldwin as Trump's ghostwriter.

And long before President Obama mocked Donald Trump at the white House. Correspondents Dinner, Kurtz had already diagnosed him. as the patient zero of our national derangement. So let's get into it. I know. that Donald Trump is going on a congratulatory. tour of the Middle East this weekend, but I think he's going to feel a little hung. over, over one disappointment. And that would be not winning the Nobel Peace Prize.

Oh, he didn't win it. And come on, he solved seven wars. Some with countries that weren't even at war with each other. That's true. And I only started or tried to start 1. or 2 in the United States by sending in the National Guard to various cities. Now, you know, you're being cynical, Kurt Anderson. No, no. The thing about and as he goes through, Israel, which he's already doing as people watch this, I suppose you can bet. he will be saying, you know, you know, he will mention the Nobel Prize.

I guarantee you he will find ways without, you know, I directly explicitly dissing the heroic, Maria Maria Corina machado in Venezuela, who who has supported who has made at least lip service support of his. thanks to him and thanks to him. for putting a $50 million bounty on, Maduro. How is it possible that no one's come forward with that? By the way, 50 million bounty on the head of Nicolas.

Well, it's not killing him. You have to. You have to get him. You have to. We have to bring him to the state. To the DEA, and they have to convict him. So not just some Joe in. Nevertheless. $50 million is quite an incentive. For just one of his minions. I guess, to to snitch or something. Life changing. It's life changing. Well, and maybe Trump will repeat that. But anyway, he will, he will, he will find it difficult and he will find it. I if I'm wrong.

Okay, come back and tell me I'm wrong. But I bet he will more than once repeat something about the Nobel Peace. Prize and and why he should win if not this time the next time. Right. And that she's a nice lady? Yes, a nice lady, but he's actually stopped seven wars. I wonder if, because Marco Rubio has been a big fan of hers. and I think wrote in support of her getting the Nobel Peace Prize, that actually he will face some backlash from Donald Trump. You wonder about Marco Rubio, who was until,

you know, the day before yesterday, in terms of his foreign policy opinions, everything Trump is not, you know, I mean, he was a conventional conservative interventionist, right? So, yeah, we'll see. I mean, he, you know. Yes. Did you work to prevent me from getting it while Netanyahu is doing his best. or right? And and also, of course, Netanyahu put out an AI version of an enormous. Nobel Peace Prize medal hanging around Donald Trump's neck.

No, it's amazing. It's is you know, Trump is a cartoon. And people like Netanyahu know that the cartoon larger than life. What is this? Forms of flattery is what he likes. It's like when Trump himself, when that AI video came out of Gaza. as a resort that Trump and Netanyahu are running. Right. He shared that. I mean, you know, again, as I've argued and written. a book about the blurred line between fantasy and reality.

in fantasy land, of which Donald Trump is the Lord and master is. is is harder and harder to to suss out what's real and what's not. I'm sure there will be people who see this Netanyahu distributed, picture of Trump with the, you know, foot wide, Nobel Prize hanging from his, his, his neck as Israel. So you mentioned that Donald Trump is a cartoon president. We have obviously a cartoon head of health and Human services,

a man that I referenced in your, introduction today. because you bought cocaine off him at Harvard. I want a blow by blow account of that transaction. Please spare no detail. I need to understand it. It was in a dorm room. Was it outside of campus? I need all of it. What was his hair like? What was your hair like? Good choice. Blow by blow. Well, that was that was just. A rejoicing natural, affinities.

No. Well, I that's the one and only time in my life I ever bought cocaine. I was I was a boy from Nebraska. I went to Harvard. There was Bobby Kennedy, the celebrity in our class. Was he the celebrity in your class? And as handsome as could be, I mean, you know, I felt he made me feel gay. I mean, he was so handsome. He was. And he was cool. And, you know, Bobby Kennedy and, you know, the Kennedys in 1972, 73,

my freshman year, were still, you know, the dynasty that they are now, whatever. And also a tragic figure. because his father and his uncle had been killed in cold blood within. The field while he was, you know, not many years ago, his father four years earlier. So, anyway, he was also, I said my, my, my roommate. And I said, oh, we should try cocaine. And, where did you get it? And, well, Bobby Kennedy was the answer. And so, and I knew. And why was he the answer? Was he a notorious drug dealer?

Well, whoever I asked said, yeah, go to Bobby. Right. And, you know, and we had, I guess, a mutual friend or two already and, and so. I, the connection was, the phone call was made and he said, yeah, come over. And his laconic, preppy Bobby Kennedy way when his voice was still not. whatever destroyed by years of cocaine use. or the illness that he says he has that has done his voice anyway. And my roommate and I went over there, you know, a four minute walk. from our dormitory with our $40, which was a lot of money in 1973.

Right. And you went over to to Bobby's room. To Bobby, Bobby Kennedy, RFK, the future Health and Human Services secretary. His room, in in Hurlbut the dorm. Hurlbut. And, I went in and he. I to say welcome to this, but, you know, so come on in. and and, offered us, his brother Joe, future congressman, from Massachusetts, was also in the room.

So, you know, if I'd snitched, I, you know, I could have whatever, taken them both the family down. And so there they were, and we were talking, and he, as one did, or as he did anyway, offered us some weed, and, showed us open to. a Beckham in case, which was so perfect. in this preppy Ivy League thing that people did is play backgammon. Of course, back then at least, and was full.

Of free internet. Of course, which. Is full of of marijuana. It was just like, I don't know, like probably a pound of marijuana in there. And, I said, I don't have as much as you one. I'm going to go get my stash or whatever. He said he left the room. He and Joe both left the room. So Mark, my friend, and I were both there, and, and we started looking around, you know, he was gone for like five minutes. And, for instance, we looked in his address book. I didn't put this in the Atlantic Magazine article. I wrote about it because it was irrelevant to the serious case I was making it.

because Bobby Kennedy last year in my piece, but in his, address book. Oh, there's Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, there's oh, look at these phone numbers. And there was, I swear, Pope Paul the Sixth, it said Pope Paul the sixth and had a number in Rome. And I thought, we thought and we wrote it down, you know, we wrote all these numbers down in the minute we had before he returned. So that was that was a bit of color. You wanted color. You want to blow by blow. That is a great detail. You got the Pope's number and you go, yeah, yeah.

Who's number one? Yeah. I'm glad your early journalistic chops served you well. Well, I don't know about journalistic, just nosy little brats, but. Yes, indeed. Well, in how strange he would leave it out there. I've since actually seen his sex diary. Someone at the Daily Beast has a copy of it. Yeah. Which is so it's interesting that he leaves his things around. Yeah, well, he certainly did. Well, he's a reckless character. I mean, the thing about him, I. Well, I don't want to interrupt the the transaction.

So you're busy scribbling down the number. Three, scribble down one of the scribbled down the numbers, and he came back and, you know, and he put out. a, you know, a line of coke and, we tried it with his little. He handed us a little piece of, you know, one each straw, that one he'd. gotten from the freshman dorm next to or the freshman, eating place next to his dorm. We did the thing. Okay, what do we know? Sure. Fine. Great.

Well, what we did, you know, he said bye. And and did he give it to you in a little packet? Did you measure it on a scale? You know, I'm an unreliable witness, I don't remember, yeah. So you get a little packet. It might have been. just a little tin foil packet rather than, like, a full on drug dealer. A little tiny one inch baggie probably didn't exist 53 years ago. That professionalized sense? Yes, exactly. And he was early in his drug, using dealing career relatively. So anyway, so he took it and, that was that. And,

about we got back to our dorm and, I don't know, maybe we did our own lines then and, and, so I get a call on the phone, the, of course, all my landlines at the time. and the phone in my dorm room rang and he said, yeah, it's Bobby. Oh, hi. He said, you took my straw man. I said, what is it? You took the straw. And apparently I had pocketed not wanting to steal Robert.

F Kennedy Junior's Coke special cocaine, straw. But it turned out it was his special cocaine straw because he believed, as he explained to me, it had crystals growing. It has crystals in it, man. Meaning somehow the. What? The repeated use, repeated. Use of mucus and cocaine buildup. made it something that it was very precious to him. And therefore now he's the head of, health, the health system of the United States. So there you go. It's a line drawn.

So anyway, so I said, okay, he said, bring it back. I said, okay, and I did, and he took it and like, almost virtually slammed the door of his dorm room. So that was the end of my, my relationship. with my drug dealing relationship with Bobby Kennedy. But I saw him around. We were we were in concentric circles of people, many of his friends and roommates, and things were mine. And so I saw him and heard stories of him. And he was he was a reckless, entitled guy. And and they all, even though they were, you know, he had the celebrity.

radiance of and, you know, there was nobody well, actually, Meher Bhutto, this son of the then. dictator, president of Pakistan and a pal of Bobby's, naturally. But anyway, he was a reckless character. And one of my friends tells me the story of driving with Bobby. Bobby driving? Because he had a car. None of the rest of us did, driving through this tunnel in Cambridge, mass. In Harvard Square at night, turning the lights of the of the car.

So he so it was like, what are we doing? What are you doing? And it was that kind of thing. There are many stories like that of him just behaving recklessly. and heedlessly because, well, he was young. When you're young, you don't think you can die. But you know, this entitled, you know, Rich Kennedy brat. So anyway, that's my experience of of, Robert Kennedy Jr. Okay. Well, we'll come back to that. And why you think Trump chose him in a bit, but you've also had a ton of interaction with Donald Trump.

I mean, he's been around in the media for 40 years. So of you, you're you're younger, but you've had a lot of interaction. And very early on when you were at SPI magazine, you recognized that he was a character that certainly needed lampooning. Yes. He. was, yes, he I am younger, I'm much younger. I'm I'm in fact younger than Trump. Than you are of than me. Just fair, fair, fair comparison. But anyway,

Yeah. When my. Two years. We started, we started spy magazine, this satirical magazine, influenced by all kinds of magazines, including Private Eye, which is. Yeah, the. The British magazine, which is still going, which is. Still growing and different than we were doing spy. We're doing more journalism in less kind of in sheer humor than Private Eye does. But anyway, so we started this thing. It was based in New York, was about New Yorkers. for its first year or two before we kind of went national. It was successful and influential, and it was the pre-Internet age.

So you could actually start a magazine and be. central to the conversation as you can. Well, and as one person said, you were the zeitgeist. when spy came along, you changed the conversation. Well, it was it was. We were lucky in many, many ways. And we I think we did what we did. Well, anyway, right away, because my partner and co-founder, Graydon Carter. had, done a profile of Donald Trump in GQ magazine, as we were plotting and scheming and trying to start spy.

And he came back and to me and said, you know, he's he's he's, you know, said, well, I, I'm not sure I'd even heard of him at that point. He was not that well known. In 1984 or 5 as we were, you know. Anyway, he said he's, you know, he's a bully. He's a liar. He didn't say bully at that time, but he's a liar. Prior to Bridges and Tunnels, you know, want to want to, you know, make it in the big Manhattan world guy. And and he said and he just, you know, made fun of his cufflinks and things.

But he said, you know, for a guy, I don't know, six, 1 or 2, whatever he is, he has the smallest fingers I've ever seen. He has just weirdly small fingers. So then cut forward a couple, three years and we're thinking of the epithet. we would attach to him, as we did all recurring figures, whether you're Henry Kissinger, whom we called every time we mentioned him. in the magazine, socialite, war criminal Henry Kissinger. And so we we came up with various, well, a couple of different ones.

for Donald Trump, which we decided didn't stick. And then we came up with short fingered vulgarian Donald Trump. And that called him that again and again and again. And, and people still say it today and still know it today. Marco Rubio, who, stole the Nobel Prize from, Donald. Trump for his friend Machado when. He was running for president and whenever that was, 2016, I guess. Yes, he he brought up on stage. short fingered vulgarian and as we had honestly never done,

never intended, never thought of related to the size of his penis. So, I mean, like he. Became at the time, a new low level of campaigning, right? There was so much outrage that Marco Rubio had somehow alluded to that. Well, he alluded to it. And again, I mean, I was watching on TV. and thought, I mean, people talk about, oh, it's like an acid flashback. Well, yeah. Suddenly this little silly thing that we'd done, you know, 30 years earlier is like on a debate stage for the Republican.

presidential nomination was incredibly credible. Of course, Donald Trump being Donald Trump, went right into it and said, no, I'll tell you, my mom in that department, meaning his manhood, and I got no problem on the stage. So it was it was the cartoon had begun. Yeah. The the cartoon had begun. Well, and also, didn't he, at one time send you a note saying how good you were. when you when you left spy magazine, you went to edit new magazine.

Didn't he send you a note saying that you were very good? He did well. And he sent he said he'd sent Graydon and me. notes and letters threatening lawsuits while we were doing spy. You know that, you know, he said we were trying to extort him. to get, spy carried on his short lived, unprofitable failed air shuttle. He he he had his lawyers and his letters. About his shuttle. The shuttle? Yeah. One that lasted two and a half years and lost money.

One of his many unsuccessful business. Like Trump University, Trump steaks, Trump warship. Well, this actually had airplanes and it was flying. You know, it was it was the eastern air shuttle until it became, the Trump air shuttle, I. mean, and he bankrupted it once again. But he and he, he had heard. he knew that we were doing a working on a big story cover story, as it turned out, about his wife at the time, his first wife. and his lawyer sent a letter threatening suit over that. So. And he never sued us?

Of course. Or not, of course, of course. Then. Because, like, why he was sensible then? Because why waste money on a lawsuit? You know you're going to lose it anyway. So anyway, I yes, we had interactions with him. and then so I leaves by become editor of New York magazine. Shortly thereafter and. there's in a trade magazine about the media. There was a big story about me and my new editorship and, here's what I was doing and blah, blah. And they quoted Donald Trump at length.

about how great I was doing, how exciting I'd made the magazine and all this. And there's a big pull quote, you know, these large quotes, from him about that and how exciting Curt was that? He tears out that page. of that magazine with his. presidential pre presidential famous. Donald Trump Sharpie writes, circles the whole quote and says. so true about his the quote of him and then signs.

Of his own quote unquote you. And then signs at Donald Trump in that familiar, you know, EKG. Sort of pubic hair type of. Yeah. From, birthday. I said. Yes, and send it to me. And, and I forgot about it, and I found it when I was moving. a couple of years ago and. was happy that I about to discover it. So there it is. There was that then when, we did, I did a story, New York magazine, where the great writer Lisa Birnbaum.

went down to the new Mar-A-Lago to spend a weekend there and just talked to him and. and just and wrote this piece that was hilarious and wonderful. That was almost entirely him talking verbatim. And she did it as a, you know, weekend was at Donald's in three acts. as screenplay writing, you know, dialog. He writes me and I. it's as though he wrote maybe he dictated it, but it was like. as if he wrote it and typed it and and, it was it was not bullying.

It was not angry because I was in this position as editor of New York, that he. feared in some way or wanted my band. It didn't want to alienate me. Right. Because he was just a real estate guy. I mean, whatever he wasn't, he had no power. And so he wrote me this. I say he was just complaining. He was sorry. He was sad. It made him unhappy. It wasn't good. And I said, but. And I wrote him back and and I have all this correspondence. I wrote him back and I said, Donald, you know, it was all verbatim. She didn't really say who it was, just you and you and,

you know, Ivana and stuff and people. talking said, yeah, I know, but it was still so unfair. Which is which again, I mean, it's all these aspects of Donald Trump. that we see now, like, no, they're just mean to me. They're making me look bad, even though it's just my words. you were saying you use my words to make me look stupid. Well, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so now I had many, many, and then when, when I lost to New York magazine, when I was fired from New York magazine, I immediately went to the New York Post to say what a bum I'd been.

and how shitty I'd been as an editor and how awful. Anyway, so that's that's, you know, again, the Donald Trump pattern 35 years ago was clear. And so, I mean, you've written about this. and you came up with another great phrase, the fucking king of America. How did we get here? Because people knew from the beginning that he was a bragger, that he was probably showing off, that he'd lurched from, you know, he was constantly teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.

How do we get from there to here? Yeah, well, you know, he had he had talked about. and flirted with running for president. since I was around 1988, I think was the first time. Which I think it's important to say, because people often, situated back at the 2011 white House correspondents. But it was very clear he had bigger dreams. Well, he had bigger dreams. And they were like all of his dream, like winning the Nobel Peace Prize.

I mean, they're like, preposterous at the time, right? And so we, we like we actually commissioned polls. to say who once Donald Trump be president, we found that 4% of Americans did. We made a big thing of that. Look, you got a 4% groundswell. But no. So he and he did it again and again and again every four years. He would do it because I'm Donald Trump, I'm a great businessman. And of course, as, for instance, the Trump air shuttle and the and his football. and his professional football league at all these businesses, large and small,

which all fail, show he's not a good businessman. He at all what he was was a good guy playing a businessman on The Apprentice. Which right, made him a bunch of money and made him famous and got him elected. president, got him like the president, as I've also written over the years, because, you know, starting with John F Kennedy in television. and certainly through Ronald Reagan, an actual movie star turned president. You know, politics, especially presidential politics,

became this kind of subset of show business and performance. I mean, you know, yes, FDR was on the radio and stuff, but. like with TV and then and all that came with with my Reagan through Bill Clinton. being on talk shows and then Donald Trump taking it to the next level. That's how that's partly how we got here, that celebrity and, and this kind of show business performance ability, got us here.

And in his case, as a really successful television writer friend of mine. said to me in early 2016 before, when he was still like, really? You know, you're not going to be nominated or like and said, no, he is. He's going nominate is going to be elected because people hate politicians. and he doesn't come off as a normal politician. And I and I have never forgotten that. My friend Paul Simms said that to me because it's exactly right. So how do the Democrats sort of countermand that? Because arguably Joe Biden was was almost pre television as a candidate.

They took over from him. And arguably if it hadn't been for Covid, he might not have done. But he squeezed through. and he very much felt like the last of a line of politicians. Yeah. How does the Democratic Party or the. or any opposition to Donald Trump surface at this point? Yeah. Well, I mean, Joe Biden, as I said when he was running, I mean, because I was 20, I mean, you know, the pollsters often run generic.

Democrat, not not a specific person, but a generic Democrat against an incumbent. I thought, well, don't, Joe Biden is the embodiment. of generic Democrats of a certain age and, and and still won. because the generic Democrat beat this freak who was President Donald Trump. Right. The first time. So how do we do it? Well, you know, just as the media are stumbling, have stumbled around for a decade, like, how do we cover this guy. like and still stumbling around like because it's hard. It's a new thing. We are in a new period for now.

I won't say, for better or worse, for worse and horrible, you know, in every way, including this, it's it's and, you know, at Huffington Post, I think covered it his his first campaign as a. Yeah, we're just gonna put this in the entertainment section. Hahaha. Well, no, you know, so nobody's know how to cover him. And Democrats. haven't really, I mean, tried and, you know, in the first term.

behaved as just normal Democrats as though this is a momentary blip away. From an anomaly. And it will return to normal. We haven't, entered a new era. Well, we had and we have, in so many ways. And so, I mean, you have to look at what he did and what he's done and what he does, which is to say, understand. a presidency in addition to one hopes, substantive legislative.

accomplishments and stuff, which, yes, the Biden administration had as a show. as Zelensky did in Ukraine in a very different way. I mean, Zelensky, you know, actor played president, became president. Right. And has been in a heroic, amazing president of a country. at war against a much bigger aggressor, a neighbor. So Donald Trump in his in his way. and he, as a young man, as a 20 year old said, yeah, I thought about a career in show business, but I want to be in real estate, but I'm going to turn it into show business.

He said that, and so that's that. He does that and, you know, I mean, he's. he's he's an idiot about many things, is stupid about many things. But his basic. performative show business instincts are are incredible. And and how to keep the attention. every day as much as he can. And again, one of the things that struck me. when we were doing spy, you know, 35, 40 years ago, was I'd never seen anybody so craving, yearning.

for any kind of attention possible would, you know, call up, talk to reporters on the television pretending to be his PR guy, John Barron? Very good. Yes, indeed. And and just craved it. And like, you know, the old phrase no, no publicity, all publicity is good publicity. I mean, that Donald Trump. lived on that, premise unlike anybody I'd ever seen.

Like, like an addict is addicted to drugs. To me, his need and desire for attention of any kind. Now, preferably, you know, the kind of attention. that the New York Post gave him with a front page. headline saying, best sex I ever had, said Marla maples about, you know, or. His or she was surprised to read that headline when she saw it, because he'd obviously just found it in you. Literally. And there's that was recurrent. He was telling them this and, and but she was somewhere in the background, said Marla. That's true, isn't it?

So. And she said, yes. And. So, but no any I mean, he so breaking norms and, and. and being the ultimate publicity whore of our time was his, his M.O. from the get go. And also what I think is interesting. is your analysis of him as a television star. Clearly 14 seasons of The Apprentice and then obsessive. chronicling of who was taking over from him.

Arnold Schwarzenegger did a, a season. Martha Stewart did a season. They both got fewer ratings than he did, and he was beside himself with. Free Love, talking about how he then social media existed, which again. Well, that's what I was going to ask you about the segue to social media. Obviously, he's got his own now. After he was booted off Twitter, he created truth, Social. Justice, sheer skill in managing. to stay on top of whatever the dominant media is at the time.

What is that about? What is that, as you say, addiction to attention about? Because most people would just be. in the fetal position with a 100th of the attention. He you. No, it's entirely true. Well, because, you know, we. I mean spy treated him as effectively a cartoon character from the beginning. And he kind of treats himself as a cartoon character. And, and and again, one of the probably the great profound problems. to my way of thinking about social media is that it. and the internet is it makes all of us treat our adversaries,

the people we don't like, whatever, as not real humans. that we talk about dehumanization, that's a real thing and it could lead. to has lead to violence will lead to more violence, no doubt. But the thing of like, well, this is this is not a real person. that I'm, that I'm saying these savage, horrible things about online. They're just somebody online. They're just like, in a game or cartoon. And, and so. the, the. sociopath, the psychopath of Donald Trump, which is,

you know, all about no human empathy for anybody. I mean, social media. Great. I'm just I'm just just viewing my lies and fantasies. and and insults and there's no accountability. It doesn't matter. They're not real people. They don't matter. So. So it was a it was a natural sort of. infrastructure for his pathologies, really. In a way. That's an interesting way of thinking. about an infrastructure for his pathologies.

And what does it I mean, you've met and you've known over the years, lots of moderate Republicans, lots of people. Who are child of moderate. Well, I'm tired of conservative Republicans, but who would now be the worst kind of rhinos on earth? Yeah. Right. So what do you think about the people around him. that initially understood he was a cartoon and thought, this isn't serious, and then watch their party co-opted by him and then. all, all his ministers around him, all his cabinet secretaries around him.

fawning over him even when they know this is nonsense. Yeah. I mean, they didn't do that the first term. The the difference between the first term and the second term is so striking in. so many ways. It's not just that he is now actually exercising power. rather than just, you know, using his bully pulpit to. failing to really do much, he surrounded himself the first term with the people. You're supposed to you consider Mitt Romney to be secretary of state, you know,

almost like General Milley. All of them. We're just kind of normal, you know. Remember Rex Tillerson on the. Toilet, you know, and and, you know, and he was he was still playing by the rules. Sure. Breaking the norms, but nothing like. the like the truly terrifying, and and historic horrors that he's, he's doing now. So he was still, you know,

you know, he was still. even though he had been elected, not as a normal Republican. He'd been elected as well and lied and was brilliantly a brilliant liar. about, like basically running as Bernie Sanders economically. I will give you better Medicare. Either Wall Street is picking your pocket. They're destroying your towns. So he was truly look at the last two minute ad he did in his first campaign. It could be Bernie Sanders and and so well, okay. This guy is different than other Republicans.

You know, he's he's he's he's he's. he's a tough Republican who hates the same people we do, you know. Right. The the swamp of Washington, he's going to drain. Well that and he doesn't like black people and he doesn't like immigrants. and he doesn't like gay people. You know, the cultural thing that had been the, you know, the part of the Republican strategy. for since Richard Nixon, really. the Southern strategy was called back when he, first did it. So he had that.

But he was he was he was still a he was playing, pretending. to be a different kind of Republican in that he was he wasn't for Wall Street. He was for Social Security and for Medicare. Well, you know, it was it was a perfect pitch to the white working class. So that that was that was I mean, and Steve Bannon was around who really, you know, to my mind had it. Right. If he if if Donald Trump had governed like Steve Bannon wanted him to,

he he would have been he would have been reelected. No problem. Because if you had really if he had really said, I'm not a regular Republican. and I think Medicare is great and I think we should expand it. And Bernie had a good idea, and let's have mass deportations and let's. stop by those two together, which is that basically the Steve Bannon platform. Would have been, would have like. worked wonders, but it didn't because, because the Republican Party. except for Donald Trump and now is.

you know, various MAGA. people surrounding him in Congress are still, you know, are not. you know, they are not a working class party economically. So that contradiction still exists. And he's giving it up. He doesn't even lie about it anymore. He just he doesn't he doesn't really even pretend that he's, you know, against Wall Street or against big business. So, you know, and that's, that's how we got here and, and the ability to because it's now all about.

paying attention to me. I'm, I'm, I'm a man of action. I'm a president of action. And he is in a certain way, right? I mean, whether it's, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm having a summit with Putin in Alaska. that does nothing. I'm I'm going to Israel because of peace. Well, not peace. It's a ceasefire and good. But like we'll see, right? I mean, I'm calling all the generals together with my head of the war depart. Yeah. To tell them they shouldn't be fat and, and and and and and now I'm.

sending in the National Guard to Portland because it's a hellhole. I mean, and again, I, you know, I, I, I, I it's a hobby horse mine. But this, this not just blurring a fiction reality, but like, but, we have a media sphere that allows him to. if people don't look beyond. him or beyond Fox News to to think, well, I guess Portland is burning. I guess we should send the National Guard there. Just this, this, this basic.

falsehood fabrication that is the basis of of this. probably unconstitutional deployment of, military forces. It's it's it's well enough. And now we've got your old college. buddy, RFK junior and Health and Human. Services, my dealer, not my. But. Well, you just your dealer, right? I love that just your dealer. Now, telling people that not only does Tylenol in pregnancy. cause autism, but I've circumcision causes autism.

He also appears to be an addict for attention. He was certainly a drug addict for a long time. What do you. Why do you think that Donald Trump found him so compelling? Well, compelling point A. he's a Kennedy. Donald Trump, born in 1946, 14 years old when Jack Kennedy was elected president. I mean, he is he is he is is in that first boomer year.

and the boomers are the people, you know, who were young people. during the Kennedy Camelot magic. I mean, and actually the older generation as well. But that's why because he's a Kennedy and a good and a good looking one. They're not all good looking. You know. He's pretty he's pretty good looking. And, you know, for a. Married to an actress, married to a Hollywood actress, major. Hollywood actress and, you know, and and buff and built. and looks great for 71,

you know, so that's why. and and and I don't know how. shrewd or clever he was about this kind of California. new agey, now called Maha part of of the coalition of people. who don't want vaccines and think, you know, additives of food are bad. All the things that but many of us which. Agree and that people are too obese and out of. food industrial complex. You know, 20% of Bobby Kennedy's.

prescriptions for the health system go. Sure. But, so he but but it was it was the celebrity. It was the it was a he's a big, handsome guy who's already famous. Good. You know, central casting, I mean, Pete Hegseth or or Kristi Noem or, you know, they are like people in some third rank. television show, but they're they're pretty in their ways. They're good looking. They're they're they're, you know, like characters in a video game or something.

But but Bobby Kennedy, I mean, this is Bobby Kennedy. He has his own, you know, comes in pre marketed with fame. and had been we I say. because I once ran a very adoring cover story on him in New York magazine. And you know, he was doing good work as a lawyer, as an environmental lawyer. basically, but. Cleaning up the rivers and things. Yes. You know, but and then, you know, at the turn of the century, as the internet came and, you know, you could, you know, you could.

start to. have all kinds of falsehoods and conspiracy theories like vaccines. Cause autism. And he took advantage of that. and became the poster boy for that, as I wrote about in my book Fantasyland. Anyway, so he, he, he was he was a Kennedy. and he obviously had a, had a flexible view of, you know, of empirical reality, you know, which which, you know, the whole MAGA thing is, is like,

you know, island of broken toys of all. kinds of different conspiracy theories that come together, you know, whether it's Jeffrey Epstein, plausible. conspiracy theories about his pedophilia or Bobby Kennedy and about, you know, the vaccine industry working with Fauci. and the pharmaceutical industry to cause the pendant, all all that. So, so, I mean, believe what you want. You know, it's your plot, your own adventure.

So when when Donald Trump gets up there and does his Tylenol spiel, which has no science behind it whatsoever. And consists of just simply saying it's bad, it's bad. News, it it out of it. I longed to ask Melania, did she tough it out when she was pregnant with Barron? Yeah, I don't know. She sure. Well, what do you think he's thinking in that moment? Is he thinking anything? Why is he doing that? It's just the attention. Drug, I believe.

I believe it's just the attention. And, you know, Bobby, Bobby says this, so I don't know anything, so I'll just. I'll just repeat it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's, you know, and, you know, he's taken and all of his children have taken it and, and his wife lives have no doubt. all taken it. And, Well, and also the weird thing is that the one thing that worked from. his first administration was Operation Warp Speed, which suddenly, in the moment now he's hanging out with Bobby Kennedy, doesn't work so well.

So he immediately walks back from it, which also seems crazy. Well, it is crazy. No, it is. I mean, you know, he had a couple of things. that he could take credit for that being the biggest one, being not getting the way. and proper letting the government properly fund this incredible new technology. that got us a incredibly effective vaccine in, in a matter of months, in a year. Right. And was the envy of the world. Correct. And so but, oh, this is these. anti-vax nuts, that are part of my coalition.

Don't like that. Okay. I gotta, you know, play both sides of it as he does on so many things, right? I mean, he's he's because he's Donald Trump who's, who's. one of whose political superpowers is, you know, contradicting himself. within 24 hours or within an hour or within five. Minutes. And like, it doesn't matter. And, and in a certain way, because and in this one of his. overwhelming successful things in. this administration is doing so many different things.

every day. A new thing, a new thing and some new atrocious, horrific. violation of the Constitution or norms or whatever. So there's this too much. It's what Steve Bannon said years ago that we're going to, you know, the whole. strategy is to flood the zone with shit, you know, and my God, he's done that. And so the media, the news media and Democrats like how, how do we how do we focus? What do we focus on. So the one thing that does seem to stick to him and unnerves.

him and unnerves the people around him is Jeffrey Epstein in the story. of Jeffrey Epstein and their friendship for 15 years. Did you ever come across Jeffrey Epstein? I didn't have that privilege of coming across Jeffrey Epstein, although, you know, people I knew did and, you're a contributor, Michael Wolff, sir, and my friend at the time and still, certainly did. And people were aware of him as this.

interesting, highly interesting, unusual rich guy character. But no, I never did. But they they obviously were, you know, they had much in common as as bridge. and tunnel boys who made money in their variously shady, sketchy ways. and, and and came from Brooklyn and Queens. and moved to Manhattan and, you know, as Donald Trump said of Jeffrey Epstein, likes likes of girls really young. So no, but I never. Laughing at that.

I don't know why I'm laughing about that. Every time I do, people write in and say, this is about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't make it funny, but but it's hard not to because it's. because it's such a peculiar situation. Final question then, do you think that Jeffrey Epstein. Well, how do you think Jeffrey Epstein died? Well, I, I if I had to bet money, and again. I meme coins or. Or no actual cash.

I haven't studied it carefully, but. but I've read fairly carefully about the circumstances, and I, I, I, I. disbelieve extraordinary conspiracy theories. until I'm, I can be persuaded that they're real and and this one seems. a plausible, conspiracy theory that somehow, just as, you know, the speaker of the House is now. keeping Congress the House out of session in order to prevent Epstein's.

the Epstein Files from being released that somebody thought like, I've seen better die or you're in trouble, Mr. President, you know, I don't know. I don't know that that's true. But as far as allegations or suspicions. go along with so much of the. the unusual connections and coincidences around. Jeffrey Epstein and his crimes go, it's it's plausible. But if I had to bet $10,000, I'd bet.

Yeah, he killed himself. But, Anderson, such a treat to talk to you. I love hearing your sort of vision of the world and your observations. and also your strange interactions along the way. with the people who I mean, Donald Trump really stands astride the world. Nobel Peace Prize or not. He's the most talked about man in the world, which is all he ever wanted. Is exactly right. And yet. Yet I think he's the. the hole in his soul and his inability. to be satisfied or happy or content with life.

to me, is still manifest and apparent. So, I mean, that's at least I, I take some consolation in that belief. When you come back and and talk to us again, I'm. Sure happy to. I found that a wonderfully stimulating conversation. with Kurt, and I really want him to come back, because it's so helpful to think about the rise of Donald Trump.

on the world stage as not just politics as normal, but as a cultural phenomenon that we have all been privy to. And of course, we've watched it happen through television. and through social media. And it's just it sort of says so much about all of us. Anyway, if you have been thank you for joining us. Don't forget to join the Daily Beast community, and please subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you're on YouTube, you can press the button to join the community below.

Don't forget to be a beast. As our first lady would have us say, I want to thank our special. beast membership tier Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel, and free DC. Whoever free DC is, it's a great, nom de plume. And just to remind you, will be back on Monday with David Rothkopf. And Tuesday, we'll be going back inside Trump's. head with Trump chronicler Michael Wolff.

Thank you to our production team, Devin Roger Reno, and of us and our editor, Jesse Millwood.