What Fellow Inmates Are Saying About Ghislaine Maxwell | The Daily Beast Podcast

The other inmates either have daughters. Many of them have daughters that are of the same age as the daughters of Miss. Maxwell was convicted of of abusing also, and this is a little bit more serious. Many of the women in that facility were abused themselves, had abusive relationships, but were the victims of sexual abuse. So again, imagine you're in this could be a pressure cooker environment. And you see another inmate that's getting this special treatment.

that is convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of. So there is a lot of frustration. amongst the inmates and rightly so because of that. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and we have a riveting conversation today for you about what it's like. being in prison alongside Ghislaine Maxwell, and is particularly timely. to talk about this now, because not only has Glenn Maxwell, who you will remember was sentenced to 20 years.

for sex trafficking after being Jeffrey Epstein's partner. in literal crime, it's particularly timely because next week is the publication. of Virginia Giuffre's memoir Nobody's Girl, which is her memoir of surviving abuse. and what really led to a tragic life. and resulted in her committing suicide earlier this year.

Some mango ended up serving time in jail himself as a white collar criminal. He was involved in an insurance fraud, but he left jail and set up a consultancy. and his clients have included Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro. and various other high profile white collar inmates. Now of course, Ghislaine Maxwell is not a white collar inmate. She was, found guilty of sex trafficking, but she's. now in a prison camp alongside Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos,

a Real Housewife. and several white collar criminals. So we got into it in detail about what their daily life is like. and how she's become this celebrity inmate, this trophy inmate. that everybody else in the prison is trying to avoid in case. they get caught up in her poisonous wake. So, Sam, let's get into it.

Can you start by explaining to us how unusual it is for. someone who's been sentenced, like Ghislaine Maxwell, to 20 years. for sex trafficking is in a essentially. a camp, Bryan prison in Texas. Sure. So in the Bureau of Prisons, there's something called a public safety factor. When someone is sentenced or actually before they're sentenced, they do a pre-sentence report and in that report, it lists their criminal history.

If there's any violence, drug use, and specifically their charge. based upon a public safety factor, they are designated. So there's a central office for the Bureau of Prisons in Grand Prairie, Texas. That takes every single incoming inmate and everyone that's currently in custody. and determines where they should serve their time. There are times when people can be moved from one level of security to another.

In the case of Miss Maxwell, she had two public safety factors on her. One was the easy one to play with, which is the length of time remaining in her sentence. She had a 20 year sentence. In order to qualify for a camp or a minimum security facility, you have to have ten years or less remaining on your sentence. Wow, I yeah, I've had clients with 11 years, 12 years. Sometimes you can get that waived and that is typically the easiest.

of the public safety factors to waive. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the hardest public safety factor to waive. And until now I've never seen waived, which is a conviction for a sex crime, any type of sexual, pornography, anything involving a sexual act, is the most. serious or one of the most serious public safety factors someone can have on them.

And that specifically precludes an individual. from serving their time in a camp. But one step further, once their sentence is over, they are also limited. As far as the amount of. halfway house line they can have or community type. So it's a very severe restriction. I have never and I've helped thousands of, people and we've had a few people with, violations of the man at something.

like, homes has, they will not waive. that public safety factor. So. So this camp is. Crazy, right? This this really is crazy. And also, not only did she have a 20 year sentence, but it was for sex trafficking children, girls. Which lends itself to a whole different dilemma. of where she is and how the other inmates feel about. serving time with our how the inmates families feel like serving time with her.

But right now specifically, and I give tremendous. kudos to Josh Smith and Bill Marshall, who run the Bureau of Prisons. I think they've come in really tried. to clean everything up and get things moving in the proper direction. So it's my understanding that the directive to move her. to a minimum security camp, Brian came from well above their heads. It's the most fascinating story. And of course, the juxtaposition of Virginia Giuffre,

one of Epstein's victims, who killed herself earlier this year, and the publication of her memoir that she'd spent the last sort. of 18 months working on. It's fascinating. But first, Sam, you have clients. in Bryan Prison alongside Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, I know that all the prisoners have been told they cannot talk about her. But I know you've talked to some of their relatives. What? What are you hearing from people in the same jail as Glenn Maxwell. about how things have changed.

since she's come in as basically a trophy prisoner? I've helped many high. clo, high profile, people. I served time in Miami with Peter Madoff, Bernie's brother, and the sentiment that, wow. That's a whole new episode on its own. I am dying to talk to you about that, but let's stay focused on Maxwell, and then promise me you will come back and let's talk about the Madoff's. Absolutely.

So there's two general sentiments amongst the inmates that are there. In many instances, when you have a high profile individual. that enters the facility, there's a lot of fascination. I've had, you know, two, people that are currently. in the president's, inner circle that serve time. And there's a lot of fascinating Steve. Bannon and Peter Navarro. Correct? Correct. And when they go into a prison or anybody of, of, that type of stature or fame, inmates tend to be very curious.

They want to almost live vicariously through them. And many of the staff tend to be very deferential to them. because they understand who they are and who their friends might be. In this case, with Miss Maxwell, it is completely different. They were warned the inmates and the staff were warned. prior to her coming in that under no circumstances. are they to disclose anything that happens with her,

or to her or surrounding her. during her time at, Brian. In one case, there was one inmate that told somebody, a journalist, something about her. And this young lady, was a friend of one of my clients, and she had a very short sentence. Keeping in mind, prison phones and email are subject to being monitored. So you know for sure. they have an AI system that is just looking for the name Maxwell. And as soon as this other inmate made the statement,

she was whisked off that night to Houston federal detention Center, which is a maximum security facility. So. wow. The. sentiment is is one of walking on ice. They're afraid as the staff is afraid to do anything wrong. because they know that in order for her to have gotten there, the strings at the highest possible level had to have been pulled.

And they see and we can talk about some of the things. that that they're experiencing while she's there from, her visits to, how her meals are being handled and they're truly walking on eggshells. The other sentiment, which I find fascinating, is. they the inmates, feel that she is being treated. more like a guest in a hotel than an inmate in a federal prison. So she's been treated as a sort of celebrity prisoner.

Basically, she's getting special treatment. Everybody else is feeling nervous. One person who let something slip has already been moved to a harsher jail. So this is not someone you want to mess with. This is at least for my clients. They're steering clear of her. They want to stay as far away from her, and they're actually afraid. to socialize with her. Because you never know. Especially in a prison environment. What could happen not just between the inmate and Miss Maxwell,

but between the inmate, the socializing with her and other inmates. It's guilt by association. And there's tremendous fear and anxiety. So I know this is a much, lower security prison. We think of it as as a camp, does that mean it's much less violent? Are there violent prisoners there? Because, of course, one's mindful of what happened to Jeffrey Epstein.

I mean, nobody knows. Did he commit suicide or was he actually murdered in jail? But the truth is, as anybody, will tell you, and, you know, from. your own experience, jails are full of people who are violent, and frequently mentally ill. So, so is it. is she, I understand is it's lower security, but are there still violent prisoners in Bryan? No. In order to qualify for a minimum security camp, you can't have any prior.

history of violence or a violent a charge of violence. If you commit violence, get into a fight while you're at the camp, you are immediately removed and sent to a higher level. Security. A low like Tallahassee, where she had just come from. Okay, so there's you know, there might be, I will say, gangs, but groups of women that segregate and and, stick together. But there are no gangs.

There is no violence. You don't see any, sexual activities that are going on, in camps. It turns a campus community custody as an example. If an inmate wants to leave, they can leave very rarely. I mean, the gates are open. They become a fugitive, but they can leave. There are programs that, a nursing program at that camp. that is offered to inmates to get an associate degree in nursing.

Can you imagine being a patient and waking up to discover. the nurse peering over your bed at you is Glenn Maxwell. You would really think you'd lost it. You mentioned to visit that that someone had talked to you about, and that was referred to in. an excellent piece in the Wall Street Journal about conditions. Brian, since Glenn Maxwell was checked in there, do we have any sense of who this visitor was? Because the entire prison was apparently put on lockdown.

while Glenn Maxwell had a special visit from someone? Do we know who that was? Not only was it put on lockdown, it was put on maximum lockdown. In other words. Explain the difference. What is the difference? So in a traditional lockdown, they still let people that have jobs. kitchen staff, food services, a certain orderly positions, people that have certain jobs. They allow them out of the unit to continue doing those jobs. The lockdown is typically the inmates that that are not working.

are confined to the dormitories. In this situation, everyone was locked down, the kitchen staff was closed. Everything was closed. It's my understanding that they, brought her out to the chapel. And the only thing that one of my clients. was able to see was that she went into the chapel, but whoever was visiting her came in through the back of the chapel. So you couldn't even see the type of cars they drove in on.

So was there any speculation inside this prison camp as to who the visitor was? Purely speculation, and. I have no way of confirming this, but in order to get a visit like that, it had to be somebody very, very high up, in the government, possibly also with, with some kind of security protection. And keep in mind, I've had clients that have had. very high ranking government officials and family of government officials. visit them in prison, and we had to make special accommodations.

for those visitors, but they still came in during regular visiting hours. Yes, they were given a separate room off the visiting room, but accommodations were made so it didn't lock up the whole facility. in this instance, which I again, I've never heard of before, everything was locked down and her visitors came into a back entrance. so that no one could see who they were and how they came in. I wonder if it was perhaps the number two in the Justice Department.

Todd Blanch, formerly Donald Trump's personal lawyer, one of his. army of personal lawyers who was checking in as a sort of maitre d, having organized her transfer of prisoners. Perhaps he was checking in to check she liked the room service. Can you tell us a little bit about, what life is like in the prison camp? So you mentioned that you could train. to be a nurse, but I gather there is a sort of in-house. beauty salon that that prisoners can go to and is run by other prisoners.

What? What's the food like? Give us a sense of daily life there. Lights go on. During the week, at six in the morning, you're expected to get up. If you want to go to breakfast, go to breakfast. If you have a morning job, you go to your job, you make your bed, you clean your area. There are no cells. There are no guard towers. There are typically little pods that that have a bunk bed in them. If you have no job, you're allowed.

outside, running track, television, board games, whatever you might do. I think there's pickleball there. There is, all sorts of activities from six in the morning until 9:00 at night, except for what they call count when they do a national census. If you have a job, you're expected to go to your job. And when you finish your job, you come out. And what is. This? What are the sorts of jobs that people do? Is that like. working in the prison library, which is always one of those things in orange?

Orange is the new black. So I had a client. Yes, I one of the best jobs I can get for a client. is what's called a library orderly or a law library orderly, depending upon where they are, it's either that it's better. air conditioned or better heated and they're in the library. They put books away. But it's a good job, especially typically for older people. There's a. puppy program that the women can train puppies. They live with the puppies and they train to be service dogs.

She was denied that program. There is an off premises nursing program. She was denied that program. There are other programs, i.e. cosmetology, that you're referencing, where women can learn. some sort of vocational training so that when they get out. Because remember, if you're in a camp, you're getting out soon, you're at the end of your prison term. So they try to teach women, some sort of vocational training, in men's camps, they might have commercial truck driving and things like that.

So it's a very relaxed atmosphere. One of the biggest problems in a minimum security facility is boredom. There just isn't enough to do. She can take classes. The other interesting thing, and I'm curious to know is, is she getting first step back credits towards time off with her sentence? You typically can't, but there are all sorts of, of, exceptions being made. So there classes like parenting,

a stress management, conflict management that the government. offers to, to inmates to help get time off their sentences. And all the juveniles in this particular prison. because, of course, she's convicted of sex trafficking. And as we heard at her trial, lots of the women. or lots of the girls were under age, all their juveniles. in Bryan prison.

So you can't be a juvenile. under 18 and be in a federal, adult facility, typically had to be over 18. I know when I was in Miami, there was one young man that was 19 or 20. So I'm quite sure that there are young women in there, certainly. women the age of Miss Maxwell's victims. But there's an interesting, sentiment that that is happening there. The other inmates. either have daughters, many of them have daughters that are of.

the same age as the daughters that Miss Maxwell was convicted of, of abusing. Also, and this is a little bit more serious, many of the women in that facility were abused themselves, had abusive relationships, but were the victims of sexual abuse. So again, imagine you're in this could be a pressure cooker environment. And you see another inmate that's getting this special treatment. that is convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of.

So there is a lot of frustration, amongst the inmates, and rightly so, because of that. That's a fascinating point, and not one that I'd considered, when you were a well-educated. criminal like Ghislaine Maxwell is. She went to Oxford. Do they often end up taking on the cases of, other inmates? I mean, is it possible that she can build up relationships.

with them by trying to help them, you know, either on appeal. or trying to get special treatment or whatever? I mean, is there a sense of, of an appetite among other prisoners. to get her help on something like that, or are they really just staying away? So there are things called jailhouse lawyers. Well, that, typically you're white collar, and many times. there are lawyers in the prison and they're lawyers who are inmates.

Jailhouse lawyers are prolific throughout the system. They find a way to get paid through commissary. or other ways, and they can be helpful to other inmates. I tend to doubt she's being asked to do any jailhouse legal work. Would inmates try to use her? I don't know what she has to offer. because there are many, many other very intelligent women. One of my clients is is a physician, the other is a was a successful, businesswoman.

So I don't know why one would go to Miss. Maxwell as opposed to somebody else if they needed help. Now, it's possible that other inmates think that she's going. to get some form of clemency. And they think if they get close to her, maybe they'll also. follow on her coattails. You never know what someone's thinking. I think it's a bit naive to think that. But, you know, it's a prison and people have a lot of wishful thinking, and other inmates have lots of time on their hands to do that thinking.

So people come up with all sorts of of, you know, plans and things inside. I do believe, though, that the, the majority and certainly. the more intelligent inmate population there is staying away from her. Okay. By choice or by by force. And, and what about the food in somewhere like Brian? What what is the food like? Pop has the standard menu. It's offered to every facility, every person,

throughout the system, to all 150,000 inmates. It is a standard menu. So every every Thursday at lunchtime, you get baked chicken. It does not vary. So you get on Monday one week, you get on Monday the next week. if you have, if you're, vegetarian or vegan, instead of. getting the meat product, you can get soy if you are kosher or halal. They have kosher and halal meals, but that's it. Now in Miami, we had a salad bar,

which was great, and I lived off the salad bar. And what you can add to it in the commissary. Plus you find that that the other inmates, the men or the women in prison that have been there for a long time. tend to become some of the most creative cooks. that you can imagine, either using hot water or a microwave. I often tell people, I think I had some of the best key lime. pie that someone made in the Philadelphia Detention Center in a microwave. using cookies, so there's a lot of creativity.

Other inmates do make things, to sell. You know, while there. I remember Martha Stewart when she was in jail, I think picking various leaves. that were growing through the cracks of the prison yard and turning them into, she said, I think the most nutritious thing. she managed to eat the whole time, that that she was there. So talk to us a little bit about the pressure on the staff. of having an inmate like Glenn Maxwell, because we know how,

how the staff at the Manhattan, correctional facility where Jeffrey Epstein was held came. under scrutiny after he was found unresponsive in his cell. No staff member. wants to have any potential liability. in something happened to her, whether by another inmate. or by a simple accident of tripping and falling in the shower, because the perception of her getting hurt.

or injured or worse would be devastating not only to the Bureau of Prisons, but they would be transferred to the detention center in Anchorage. There is there is an overall. View is that the worst thing that can happen to you as a prison officer? You're dispatched to Alaska. Or they can go to Guam. There's only two places that they can send you. Would be warm. But actually, interesting enough now that they've terminated the union. for the, federal, prison where, staff, they could potentially be fired.

So no staff wants. either the responsibility or the, concern of her. getting hurt again, whether by chance or another inmate, because they know that. the people that are watching this are the pinnacle of the government. and the the the risk of of, her being involved in an affray or,

hurting yourself. You know, it happens. So there is, from what I understand, she takes showers privately. Now. There are private showers in prison. It's not like you see on orange is the New Black, where. all the women stand under a group shower and stand there on a pole. No, there are private showers or private bathrooms, but at the same time, it's an open area so women can come and go. It's my understanding she is being segregated. She does take her meals, I'm told privately.

So there are certain. things being afforded her that are typically. never afforded any other inmate, let alone high profile inmates. I've spoken to friends in London who've talked to her brother, Kevin, who has been, telling people that she is under an incredibly tight guard. and that this is, you know, almost suffocating for her.

Do you think she's under 24? Seven? Watch. Minimum security camps are typically very understaffed. As an example, at Miami, there were at the time 400 inmates. And at night there was one guard. It's my understanding that not only do they have an exponentially higher. number of guards and correctional officers. on premises at all times, but they also have what's called a CERT. team, CRT team, which is special emergency response team.

that is on premises as well in case anything happens. If you remember that a week. after she got there, there was gunfire right off of the campus. Right outside of the outside of the prison. And they were very concerned that that had to do with her being there. It's my understanding, which is purely coincidental, but. they are absolutely taking all sorts of additional, there's a whole, yes, precautions, but there's a different protocol in place now with her.

So yes, this is probably in fact, it probably definitely is the highest. staffed prison camp in the Bureau prisons. It might even be the highest staffed prison other than, the ad Max in Florence, Colorado, per capita. Pardon me. So, Sam, you've spent time in jail, you've worked with, as you say, hundreds of people who've gone to jail. knowing what you know. and knowing people who knew Jeffrey Epstein.

Do you believe he committed suicide, or do you think he was murdered in jail? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I know certainly there is a. I was in the Philadelphia Detention Center for six weeks, when I was, first sentence and and, I know what a high level. security facility is, and it can be terribly depressing. Now, granted, he was facing life in prison. I was not. I was facing five years.

But it can be an overwhelming sense. of pressure, strain, anxiety, depression. I do not believe that he was murdered. Again. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I believe that based upon what he was facing and knowing what. the rest of his life would look like, he probably did commit suicide. To me, that would make sense, given his situation. But again, I'm also not a conspiracy theorist.

So, you know, I don't believe that our government. went to the extent of silencing him, especially knowing. that, you know, Miss Maxwell is out and has the same information. Well, and might not have been the government. Right? I mean, as we discussed earlier, prisons are full of violent people. who might have just taken against him or who might have been abused themselves. I saw someone get stabbed my second morning in Philadelphia, and it was scary. There's no question violence does occur at higher level facilities.

where Miss Maxwell was prior to going to Bryant. Tallahassee Tallahassee is a low security facility. that houses violent individuals, gang members. It houses sexual predators. It houses people that were sentenced. to 50 years and finally got down to 20 years. And you know, their crimes can be very, very. overwhelming. And I truly believe that once she started.

cooperating, the Bureau of Prisons had to move her. I, I understand why they moved her and it made sense. She would not have been safe physically in Tallahassee. But but was the solution to move her to a prison camp, which, as you say, never normally takes people who've been convicted. for 20 years for sex trafficking. And as you say, once you go to one of those prison camps, it's. usually because you are towards the end of your sentence.

Not when you've still got 19 years to run. It was the only solution for the Bureau of Prisons, if they wanted, if the goal was to keep her safe and alive, if they moved her to a low security, they would have had the same challenges. So part of this is just to keep her out of the presence of violent criminals. If they want to keep her safe and alive. Yes. So she just has to avoid Elizabeth Holmes, who I gather is also a prisoner. in Bryan, with her machine to test blood.

She is a prisoner. She is an inmate there. Jen Shaw from Real Housewives. Again, I have I've had over the past few years, a number of, clients that were, inmates. They're all professional, white collar, you know, doctors, lawyers, accountants, that I prefer sending my clients there, that that qualify for the programs that they offer. I think it's one of the best female camps in the country. I, I right now, I would be a bit remiss to send my clients there.

That's interesting. And and if you were a betting man, would you, do you think she's going to stay there long, or do you think there's already been as many people suspect a deal, and that in a few months, she'll be quietly released? If, again, purely speculation, I have no way of knowing for a fact. I have to imagine that getting her to Bryant. was the starting point to getting her out of custody.

Whether through commutation or pardon. It just seems to me that you don't move someone. to that type of facility with this kind of protection and precautions. If you're not overly concerned. about her safety and what she has to say and offer. So I my guess and purely speculation. is that at some point she will receive some form of clemency.

Where do you think that leaves the victims of Glenn Maxwell and. and Jeffrey Epstein really upset? Not just the victims, the other inmates. Anybody in the Bureau of Prisons that is serving time for for, you know, any charge, let alone a nonviolent charge. Charges are there, and they see that she's going to get clemency. We help people with clemency all the time. We're very active in that space. But we would never accept a case when it comes to,

you know, sexual, act or charges at all. I think there's going to be quite a bit of animosity and anger. If you're a victim, a victim's family. I know my daughter. I have a 30 year old daughter. If she was the victim, God forbid, I can't tell you how angry I would be. that the, culprit is walking free. Sam Engle, thank you very much for,

giving us your perspective on. what on earth is going on there at Bryan prison in Texas, where Glenn. Maxwell was moved from a higher security jail in, in Tallahassee after her two day long interview. with Todd Blanch, the number two at the DOJ are really remarkable story. Thank you so much. And promise us you will come back. and talk to us about your own experiences in jail and also Peter Madoff, what it was like having him as a as a fellow inmate.

I would love to join a thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. We'll come back to you if, if this story develops. Great. Thank you. It's a highly unusual, almost unheard of for a prisoner. with a sentence of 20 years. for sex trafficking to be in a minimum security camp, as Glenn Maxwell is in Texas. And there's definitely a lot of feeling among.

certain people, including our regular colleague. Michael Wolff, that a deal has already been struck. And you heard from Sam just now that this is often a place where people go. to get ready to segway back into the world and to be a free person again. It seems unlikely the Epstein victims would allow that to happen. And of course, we're still waiting for Mike Johnson. to swear in at Lita Graves.

from Arizona so that Tom Massey and Ro Khanna, who we had on the podcast two weeks ago, can get their vote to demand the release of the Epstein Files. But as Michael Wolff keeps saying, it all comes back. to Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. What else does Ghislaine Maxwell know and why? Why is she being given such preferential treatment?

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