What Being Mocked Really Does to Trump: Wolff | Inside Trump's Head

And then, of course, there are the dancing videos of Maduro. that everybody said actually triggered Trump. Trump personalizes these things. It only really works for him if he personalizes it. I need an enemy in the enemy is not an abstraction, it's a person. In this case, it was Maduro. Remember, they offered him all kinds of stuff. You know, we'll set you up and anywhere you want. You know, a luxurious retirement. And and he said, I completely rejected that.

And then and then danced in a mocking fashion. It pierces Trump directly when you mock him. Michael. Joanna. So we're back in the studio. Is this. This is our first in our first in-person podcast. We've got so much. It feels it feels like we've been away for ever. This was a long holiday. Well, a lot happened in the holidays. My four year old kept saying, I want to go back to school for it.

Yeah, well, but that seems unlikely because Mr. Swanky Pants, you and your wife. have a very nice piece about you in the New York Times today saying what. a lovely home you have and talking about how you're leaving out about my wife. I'm the I'm the bit player in this. You're a bit player, but what you. what she talks about doing is creating this lovely home. I've been to your home so I can I can testify to the fact it's. Or I can attest to the fact it's a lovely home.

Because of the brutality of what you do with on a daily basis. No, I mean, it's this interesting thing that happened and quite, quite unintentionally, that, because I can't do any of this. So when I started, when you say any of this, what do you mean? You mean the home creating a home? No, no, I mean any of the social media stuff. So. So that she I mean, was Victoria said, well, you should start an Instagram. account. And, and she said, you don't have to do anything. and you just say what you always say.

But you're saying anyway, I imagine that. all the time in your house, you're just walking around just going. Yes. Just trying to home with Trump. Trump? Yes. Absolutely. And then but she would put me in particular settings. in the House in which largely had to do where the light was. And that started to send this interesting. I don't know if you'd call it a message or, or, or a kind of.

sub context of this is going to be all right. I mean, you're saying these terrible things and about Trump. and it really, you know, I mean, if you go through all this. and everything that we talk about here and everything. that we're exposed to during the day, I think it's a it's a, it's an obviously reasonable conclusion. that we are living in the middle of a catastrophe, that history will see this moment as,

how did they survive that if they survived it but told against the backdrop, the the backdrop of this place that we live, which is, reassuring and, inviting in every way. And again, it's victorious. Victoria has created this. Not me. I'm just the guy who talks and sits in a corner and types, but that that has had a kind of powerful effect,

you know, and now, you know, from just in a couple of months from a, you know, nothing to hundreds and I think 800,000 followers, it's people want to be. reassured. Yeah. And comforted. And I actually think one of the things that really works about it. too, is that your house is, what, 200 years old. Yeah. And there's something very comforting about seeing things. that have weathered storms. I often think.

New York. itself still feels so new that it's possible. you can walk down the street in New York. and be wrestling with a problem that nobody else has wrestled with. Whereas when you walk in Rome and all the steps and the sidewalks. are worn with the 2000 years of leather sandals, you feel like there is no problem in Rome that someone hasn't had before. And it's a different it's just a different. You feel it in London to actually where again, the steps are worn.

and the pavements are often worn, that that people have lived through a lot. Whereas here it doesn't feel that people have lived through quite as much. Having said that, of course there was a civil war, but there is something very comforting about looking at you. You know, there's something very comforting. about living in a house that's 200 years old. But often something very irritating about it, too. Yeah. The leaks, lack of wind proofing. Exactly. But. But along with that, is that you,

You feel. many people have lived here before, and, and they have left a mark and then or, and it's nice to go home to, you know, who lived in my apartment. before me. I'm John Paulson. John Wolfson, lived in my building, lived in my apartment before, and I think there were a few people between him and me, but.

And now he has a huge he's one of Trump. He's billionaires. He's now got a huge building across the street. And I know John Paulson, in our apartment. in the village, you know, who lived there before us, who? Bogart and Bacall. Really. That was a fantastic apartment with that lovely garden. Yes. Well, there you go. All right. Go. We've got on to domestic things anyway, if you haven't read the piece yet, please do. What's it called? Living with the Wolf. or living with the wolves? Or how to Live like a wolf.

I didn't, I didn't, I didn't understand the head. Okay. All right. Well, anyway, it's it's all good. And, And then, of course, I thought we would might also touch. on your Substack. I don't want to make this all about you, but your Substack. I thought this morning was very good a howl. Thank you. After the Ginsburg poem of death, where you talk about. Donald Trump's first thing in the morning when he wakes up is, how's it playing? It's his constant refrain. How's it playing? How is anything play to everyone?

I mean, and he has actually designated people their job is to call him up. It's his first call. Second call in the morning. And then he always says, how's it play? And it. means anything that has gone on what speech he's given or. or troops he sent into some city or country. How's it playing and how's it playing? Is is for him. Not really a question of of do people. approve of this or.

or am I, am I getting good reviews? It's, am I dominating the news? Right? Is this is this the singular headline? Is anyone paying attention to anything other than this other than me? Now and then? This would be, of course, of course, other than me. Yes. And that is, I mean, and I think you have to see. that's the intelligent way to look at what, what's happened in Venezuela.

I mean, everybody else is grasping for the intelligent way. because this seems so ridiculous, so counterproductive, so self-defeating. So everyone has said, is this a. can we see this in some novel. Trump geopolitical terms? Or we can, can we see this as, as a bid for oil or, or Stephen Miller in the immigration side or drugs.

that seems to have passed now like the fence phase. Right. But there must be some reason. What is that? And, and I think that's an incorrect way of looking at this. The way to look at this is that, is is in, in reality television term. Okay. Then I'm going to read one of your own quotes back to you. And for those of you who are joining the podcast. for the first time, what we try to do is go inside. Donald Trump's head and imagine what's going on there. And in fact, if you can see our design here,

we think that there's a lot of chaos going on inside. And I and one of the premises here is that is that people see this wrong. because they try to the people who analyze politicians. believe that you have to analyze them as politicians, that they're. that they're that their goals have a clear cause and effect or, context that they have. that they have an agenda, a political agenda, a policy agenda.

And our view is that that's really not true about about Donald Trump, who is clearly who is not a politician, and it is about. his motivations are are far different and really have nothing to do. with a political agenda or a policy agenda. They have something to do with his own personal agenda. Yeah. And that you'll fail to understand him and you'll fail to understand the scale. of what's going on. If you only look at it in the way that you have looked at politicians before. So there's sort of obsession with, oh, is this Trump's Iraq?

Venezuela is is sort of missing the point. And I wanted to read a couple of lines from your piece. In television terms, especially, reality television, success is determined. not by positive reviews or even the likability of your characters, but by the inescapable attention often. of the trainwreck variety, that you engender. Conflict and spectacle, which is exactly what he does.

And he's so good at it. And then you go on to say, and I also love this because we know he's surrounded by certain people. that are trying to corral him and make him follow. the straight and narrow that we feel much more comfortable with. This view is at odds with almost every one of his political advisors. Indeed, with almost all people in politics who regularly try to counsel him. on the qualitative response to issues, we need to focus on the economy. He corrects them or ignores them. He leads instead with his guiding viewpoint of 14 years.

as the star of a top rated reality television series. of what will bring viewers to the edge of their seats. and make them full participants in the story. unfolding before their eyes. As we've always very smart. But you're not supposed to say that after. I read, you're supposed to go, oh, I wish I'd phrased it differently, but. but it is that we we keep saying this is a spinoff of The Apprentice.

No, I didn't see is the spin off, and I think I mean, again and let's go back. I mean, this Venezuela thing, which is on everybody's mind for obvious, obvious reasons, makes no sense, makes no sense, no sense. in any kind of kind of global strategy, in any kind of geopolitical point of view. And, and, and from a political standpoint, it's a, it's a, no, no one would have done there is nothing to gain here.

And this idea, his announcements, we're going to take over, we're going to take over Venezuela. That's just the recipe for who's going to run it. I am, I am, I'm going to run it. Who's in charge? I am, so what is going on here and what is going on here? It is just much better in one in this, in this, in this piece. You know, I talk about the reality television shows and the relationship to, to to this white House.

And it sounds like I'm talking about I'm that this is a metaphor. It is not. No, no it's straight. His was very literal on his part. How do I hold the how do I hold the attention? How do I get attention? How do I hold the attention of the public? How how do I do it in a way that ensures that no one else gets any attention? And that is the recipe for Trump political success, right? And also, when he's got the attention, when something like Venezuela,

where completely distracted from health care premiums doubling the Epstein. files, the east wing of the ballroom being demolished at night, all the issues. that actually have given him catastrophically low polls. Right? No, I think it is a it is a function of of distraction. But even that is seen this in a political context. So we have to distract because those issues are not. are not, are not playing in the context that he's seen.

It is, I need the world to focus on me, right. Me alone. And if they focus on me and this is this is this is really critical. And this is really the fundamental Trump political insight. If all that attention is focused on me, it's not focused on anyone else. Attention is a zero sum game, and if no one else can get into the picture, then I'm it.

I'm I'm you know who was trying to get into the picture. pathetically on Air Force One this week Lindsey Graham. Did you see that tragic exchange? Tragic, tragic. Lindsey Graham also has gained a lot of weight. Looks terrible. Well, he could take one of the new drugs. They've just come out in pill form. I think it's weird. Goofy has come out in pill form today and it's much, much cheaper than having the shot, that needle thing. But what I loved was he came out, he grovel to Trump, and then Trump slapped.

him anyway. Yeah, I mean, I shouldn't say I love it because that's horrible behavior from the president, but it was just the worst kind of groveling from Lindsey Graham. No. And I think it's true. And I think I think it's good to look at this in a broader sense. Every other politician is trying. to get into this frame, unsuccessfully. Unsuccessfully. And so apart from trade, you know, appears to have given up altogether. Where is James public. You see, JD Vance tell us, because we're looking for him.

Republicans can't get into this. Democrats certainly can't get into this picture. But Republicans can't get into this picture either. Right. So it is it is a government of one. It is a political moment which has gone on for quite some time now. We've won and Marco Rubio is there to sweep up the mess. But before we get to Marco Rubio, because I do want to unpack him, I do want to talk about Stephen Miller, who is yelling about Greenland.

because he's figured out that he can get attention by saying outrageous things. He's been saying outrageous things. about immigrants for some time, but now he's on the Greenland. Well, he he says outrageous things in a natural way because he is crazy. I mean, let's not this crazy, and grim looking. And he's having another baby. He and his podcast wife, Katie. I mean, the Stephen Miller thing. is, is really interesting and really central to this.

I mean, if there is a consistent policy person. in, in this utterly inconsistent white House, it is Stephen Miller, and the chief of staff, and he has been able. to sell first this immigration policy, which in no way can. in no way can I construct a scenario in which this is. that this is going to ultimately redound to the Trump.

administration's benefit. Yes, yes. Immigration is down. But to then to then pair that. with these, with these pictures. on a daily basis of incredible cruelty. Does this work in America? I think it absolutely does not. And does it work on social media. Yeah. No. And. and this the. cruelty is part of the Stephen Miller thing, you understand?

You look at the man who says I am a cruel person. and didn't want to be cruel, and this is what gives me pleasure. Yeah. And didn't you say that Donald Trump thinks of him as weird? Yes. I mean, always certainly in the first, in the first administration, it was weird. I mean, he would call them weird. Stephen. And there's something wrong with them. I mean, you can't spend spend five minutes without thinking, oh,

I mean, the way the way he looks at you, the way he the way he moves, I mean, I don't want to, let's not make fun. Was a fun of someone's, physical. The oddness of someone's physical presence. Except if they're a cruel motherfucker. And obviously, in this situation, we have whatever is going on there is warped. Is warped, is warped. That's a great way of putting it. All right.

And he is a vital, a vital piece of this Venezuela thing. Where does where did the Venezuela obsession. imagine being obsessed with Venezuela? Hard to imagine. Do you think that Donald Trump could find Venezuela on a map? We have I just many of you challenged us to take the Moca test. So I have to make a test here, and we're going to take part of it. And I urge everybody to download this. This is the Montreal cognitive assessment test that our president aced.

We're going to see if we can use it too. But how did I get we tried it a few minutes do you think. before we went live. And we already had a few problems. Yeah. It didn't go well. It didn't go well. But do you think I know he passed the well? He aced the Montreal. Does he know we're Venezuela and you find it on the map? No. Could. Could he find it on the map if you gave him a map of South America. and said, please draw a shape of Venezuela, he could not, absolutely could not. And so. But anyway, why Venezuela?

Out of out of out of every place. I mean, if it's if it's in if the interest is in, in, in, in interdiction of drugs coming into the country, well then you would pick any number of other, Latin American countries over Venezuela. Well, and you wouldn't have just pardoned the Honduran president, who we talked about, Juan Orlando Hernandez, who had tried to stuff. cocaine up the noses of the gringos, literally, his phrase and I,

I made a mistake in our last podcast when I said, he's personally. been responsible, not personally himself, but overseen 50 tons of the stuff. And someone pointed out, no, no, no, it was near never 500 tons of cocaine into America. Cocaine is not a problem. Drug. I mean, it is a problem drug, but not on the scale of fentanyl. Yeah. No. So you would pick other countries for that if you were. If your concern was a a, an incompetent leftist regime,

there are other more incompetent leftist regimes. Not to say that this is not an incompetent one, because it certainly is. Certainly is. And then which leaves you with the with the oil question. But we're in the middle of a worldwide oil glut. So why Venezuela? Because it's season two of land. Well, it, it sees oil. It's actually season three. I didn't realize Paramount release season two. I can't wait to watch it. It's my absolute favorite show.

Go Billy Bob Thornton. Love him so much. And everybody's learning about the oil industry through land. And it's amazing land one season. Yes. No, no, that's what this is. I bet you Trump's been watching land when at four in the morning. Completely. But anyway, so where does this come from? Why? And there are really two reasons. One is Stephen Miller. Who is obsessed with obsessed. obviously with immigration, Latin,

Latin American immigration, Brown immigration. And one of his part of his, his, his visions here is that we have to take over these other countries, which we end be, and then we can contain the immigrants there. I mean, this is we're we're we're in a, how does this sit with not only MAGA, but Peter Teal and all the Silicon Valley brewers. David Sax, who's his big AI advisor.

who are desperate for, real engineering talent from India, I mean, and from China. How does this work with their worldview? How do they square this circle? Well, I don't know how they they they square this circle by foot, by by believing that they can, that they can control Donald Trump in some way or manage. Donald Trump or get something from Donald Trump.

I mean, they have. they I don't and it may be they have. I mean, the whole the whole it's supposed to be the HB one visa with. Yeah, I mean, the whole the whole crypto world obviously. has been amply rewarded by, by Donald Trump. They're in the AI world. They are trying certainly trying to. trying to get what advantages they, they can. And I think that they believe at this point they have. they have scored certainly certainly scored.

more from this administration than they have from the, from, the last administration, a Democratic administration. So, I mean, I think that they feel I would say the tech. bros feel relatively good about this. At the same time, they think Donald Trump is a moron of course. Right. And, and then which brings that. brings that question to the, to the JD Vance question,

you know, is JD Vance the future that they are riding on right on here. But then the other aspect to come back to this of Venezuela, which is fascinating to me, why Venezuela is. is Marco Rubio, and. and Marco Rubio, who is. Florida politician, senator from, from Florida, deeply involved in Cuban exile matters,

child of Cuban immigrant, child of Cuban immigrants and. and the relationship of Cuba to. Venezuela is is very direct. So that Venezuela is is his one of his hobbyhorse. So both Miller and Rubio. have brought this Venezuela. to Donald Trump and essentially saying we have our issues here.

And then Donald Trump has taken this and, and, bent it to his use, his uses. I'm going to take over Venezuela. I'm going to I'm going to go I'm going to go head to head with this guy Maduro. I'm going to take him out. I'm going to be he's going to be my enemy. I am going to win. He is going to lose. I mean, the whole Trump thing, who is my enemy? I mean, in reality television terms, where's the conflict?

Who is the enemy? There's this good guy and and the bad guy, the person you root for, and the person you root against, by the way. And it doesn't. You don't have to be the person you root for. You know, the the the the villain. is also as charismatic as the hero, right. More right. Well, and and in this situation, it doesn't matter. I mean, I mean, I mean, basically.

basically you have two villains. that I mean, finally, what always have the thugs turn on the thugs. And, so you have you have the bad guy Trump against the bad guy. Maduro, which is, compelling another spin off. It's another spin off, really. It's a telenovela coming out of The Apprentice, slash the presidency, slash Venezuela. Right. But the important thing are the important context. to real to to really to realize here and to see this.

the lens through which to see this is not that there is. anything material to gain. So there is no there is no strategy here. There is no agenda. He does not want to run up Venezuela and he will not run Venezuela. He will say he's got he's running. He and he will say they're going to do what what we tell them to do. But, that's not going to happen.

The oil is probably not going to happen. Nothing is really going to change except the plot line. Okay, who? He couldn't run a bath. So the idea of him running Venezuela is is sort of absurd. But you know who's going. to have to try and run Venezuela or at least try and clear up the mess? And you saw him doing it over the weekend, little Marco. Well, but even even Marco Rubio took the positions. Trump is. We're going to we're taking over Venezuela.

We're running Venezuela. Which I'm just again, what does that even mean? Well, and as you pointed out, when we did our. emergency podcast on Sunday, he made it up on the spot. He just made it up totally a spontaneous utterance. And, which has no basis. Congress is certainly not going to, appropriate the hundreds of billions of dollars this would require, the idea that this will be supported by taking this oil out of the ground.

Who's going to take this oil out of the ground? American, American corporations, conservative American corporations, which will are being asked to make a once. in an era, existential investment in an unstable. one of the most unstable political situations now on Earth. Oh, yeah. That's going to happen. Yeah. Well, and there was there was gunfire last night. I mean, it feels like it's already begun.

Journalists arrested. It doesn't look good. Yeah. No, no, no, but it doesn't matter because none of this is going to happen. And one of the interesting things about, about Rubio is that he basically. contradicted the president. I mean, basically said, yeah, this is this is not really we're not really taking it. We're going to we're going to, work. through the existing government and, and let's remember, so the existing government, all they've have done in this idea of,

you know, I mean, there's a lot of talk about this is regime change. It's not regime change, right? It's the same old regime, at least regime change. would be a goal and an agenda and and something to accomplish. Now they've they've gone no, no, no no no, no. Machado. The the, the the Nobel Peace Prize winning, in theory, leader of the opposition, not forget about her.

We're going to we're going to do the same. We're just going to take Maduro, the enemy. I win, he loses. And then we're going to let everything go on just as it has. Right. So del, which is essentially what Rubio was saying, right. And del C Rodriguez, who was the vice president, is now in charge and appears. to be every bit as potentially difficult as Maduro, although maybe should be more polite because he gave a lots of money.

Yeah. No, no, I think I think that they will. I think that they've, they've, they've come to some accommodation there. How long that will last is, remains to be seen but doesn't have to last very long. It just has to last until the next and until the next plot line. Yes. All right. So, and then we should talk about Mark Kelly, Mark Kelly, who is now being threatened by Pete Hegseth, who lets us remind everybody couldn't run to Veterans affairs. organizations and is now the second most important person.

Well, and he's he's in charge of the military, and he's going to run in Venezuela, too. Who's going to run Venezuela? Someone in the news conference as all these. these guys behind me and they're going like, whoa, yeah. They're like, yeah. Pete's thinking, well, my experience of running things isn't going so great anyway, he's now. turned on Mark Kelly because Mark Kelly with some Democrats in November.

urged members of the military not to fulfill orders. that could be illegal. Alas. What is that? Alas, Hegseth is right. I cannot believe those words have come out of my mouth. I can't believe those words have come out. You're right. Hegseth is right. Surely not. We love Mark Kelly. Well, we may know he's been to space many, many times. He's done how many? 40 combat missions. I'm sure he's.

I'm sure he's a very nice man. But essentially what I've sensually what he was saying. to members of the American armed forces. was disobey orders, you know, yes, there's a technical point if an order is illegal, but that's a highly, a highly rarefied situation, a highly complicated one. Who is to I.

if we had a military in which everyone. Which is essentially what what he was saying, could make the decision. Oh, this is an illegal order. I think this is illegal. I'm not going to follow this. Okay, well, that would be a, That would we would no longer have a military. So, I'm afraid. I'm afraid Pete Hegseth is right. Not afraid for words. I was expecting to come out of your mouth. Now, I wish I'd never mentioned two words. Mark. Kelly, let's move swiftly on. So now I want us to do something that we mentioned on Sunday,

and everybody said, yes, you've got to do it. You've got to do it, which is we are going to live. Take the Montreal Cognitive Assessment test. This is the test they give to people to see if they are suffering. from dementia, and then they repeatedly give it to them. If they are monitoring that dementia. So we could attempt to do the first stage. of the Montreal cognitive assessment, which our president said he had aced.

For those of you who haven't yet downloaded it, this is what it looks like. This is the this is the animal section. that he was saying that he managed to identify. I think this is fairly straightforward. Horse. What do you think the second one is, Michael? Well, I would say that's a tiger. And the third one, and that's a duck. Okay. If it, Could you do this like a duck? Yeah. I've never understood that expression. All right, what about the numbers? This is visual. Spatial.

I quite like that term. Yes, exactly. One a, 2B3C. for D5EI did it. Well done, well done. Could you copy the bad that they've done this a drawing of a birds. that you have to replicate. I think we can both do that. Let's assume we could do that. To do that. All right. We could draw the clock 10:05. I could draw the clock. I would just just doing this with my four year old. Are you, tell time. Okay, so the thing that we both stumbled on,

if we're being truthful beforehand, is the memory risk read list of words. Subject must repeat them. Do two trials even if the first trial is successful. Do recall after five minutes. If I recall, after five minutes was tough. and the words were lag, cotton, school, tomato and white. leg cotton school. You say tomato and white. Very good. We'll come back to that. And if we're still talking in five minutes,

we'll come back and see if either of us can remember those words. I'm. I don't think I'm pretty blurring on them. Yeah. And then this, abstraction. So this is making connections. And apparently our president aced this. So the similarity between banana. and orange, what is the what is the thing they have in common? Can you tell me that one? Well, I can, because I'm reading it right here. But they are. That's the example they are. All right. Well, that's the example. And it's fruit or I'm going to read you the second one they is.

in that hammer and screwdriver. They are tools. Well done. Matches and lamp sources of light. Okay. Very good. Okay. This is humiliating. All right. Can you remember the words. leg cotton, school, tomato y? Well done. Okay, now I'll test you on them again a bit later. Okay. An orientation for this. You have to give your date, month, year, day, place and city.

So can you give me the date with with difficult. The fifth. That's. No, no, I'm going to give you a clue. It's the fifth anniversary of oh, January. Is this January 6th? January the 6th? Yeah. Oh my God. So why aren't we. Why aren't we at work now? Why aren't we pausing at that? Well, oh, we can pause at that. But right now we're trying to orientate ourselves. on the Moca test, which our president has aced. So date? January, the six months? Yeah.

Can you give them the year? No, we're at the month. Yeah. No, you said January. The six month. Yes. Yes. The year. It is 2026. Well done. Which is the year of the in the Chinese astrological year. Do you know what animal it is? No, no. The year of the horse. Day. The horse, the horse, the horse. Right here. It's part of the whole. Yeah, yeah, yeah, part of it. Okay. What's the day? But,

day of the week. It's Tuesday, always Tuesday when I'm sitting here. Yeah. Well, sometimes you come in on Thursday, but mine is Tuesday. place New York City in the Daily Beast offices. Very good. Okay. Far. All right. So I'm going to assign I'm going to sign in. You've passed your mock assessment. Well wait a minute. You have to give me the words. You have to give me the words again. You see if or it. Okay. Wait a minute. Wait it just start me off the.

What was the body part? Body part. Lower body, part. Legs. Cotton. Tomato. White. This one word missing. Where do kids go during the day? School. Excellent. Michael Wolff, you have passed. Make a test. You want the president of both. It's marvelous. It's absolutely marvelous. So the president's mental health clearly a big issue. I know that you're saying that Venezuela is a plot twist. To what extent do we think he really is wrestling with mental health issues?

Well, let me let me frame this in back to reality. Reality television terms. You have to you you have a central character. in, in reality television or you have the character. that, that you want people to focus on. and in, in his character is. I am I am indomitable, I'm the I'm the winner. Everyone else is the loser.

That mean that's basically the single character? No, but he's have problems with that. In the last number, number of months, in which he no longer. seems his strength seems to be fading. And that's on the health side and especially, of course, on his inability to change the Epstein discussion. So, so so we're coming into the. not not just the distraction from, from this,

but a new plotline that gives him makes him, again, the strong, the strong man, because he looks at the press conference. with two things that struck me. One, he appeared to be slurring his words slightly, and the other was. that when Dan Cane or Raisin Cane General Cane was talking, and when Marco Rubio was talking, he appeared to be asleep standing up. He could not keep his eyes, you know, I mean, I think that there is very. and I think that this comes clearer and clearer. that there is decline here, the extent of the decline.

We don't know. But we can see that, that, that there, that it is a fact. He is he is lesser than he was. There are things starting to go wrong here now. Will, will invading the country. and taking out its leader and then putting him on trial. Will all this. distract from that? Will all this, redound to his the image of his strength?

Well, we have we have yet to see. But you know, as I say, and I think it should not be underestimated. He's pretty good at this. Yeah. And, I sort of. It's hard not to see the decline. And then you see him answering questions at the press conference, journalists. hurling questions at him, and he seems very confident in answering them. Although he does definitely seem more irascible, hence him sort of slapping. back,

well, but he's not really I mean, yeah, I mean, he answers, I mean, I mean, he's he's bold in his statements. But are they good answers? We're going to run Argentina. No, no, the terrible answers. But he does it as he he does it. He's still playing a character. I mean, absolutely he is not was coherent enough to ad lib his way. through the press conference, which if he was really. had really wrestling with dementia, he wouldn't be able to do.

I don't think, well, it's a different kind of dementia. I mean, dementia comes in so many forms. There's a Joe Biden form in which he he could not put words together. And then there's the Trump form or the potentially the Trump form. in which he, he departs. By a factor, a reality. at any given moment, or he loses the plot line. And that's back to the Mamdani meeting, where everybody around him, you know, they went into that meeting and he was going to treat Mamdani.

like like, he he he treated Zelensky, upbraid him. And he was going to be he was going to be the strong man. This was this was the weekend. This was a set up. This was this was part of the key midterm set up. Mamdani. Mamdani is going to be, our foil, our enemy. And instead, he embraced him, and everybody around him was going like, what the fuck happened here?

What did you think that supposed? That it was not supposed to play this way? What did you think of Mamdani calling him to register his anxiety. that going into Venezuela and extracting the. I think I'm gonna also wanted to get into the picture, right. Of course. Right. Yeah. And, and I think probably, I think probably Mamdani was confused. by this embrace of Donald Trump. And he, for his own reasons, had to be on the other side of Donald Trump.

So this was his way of, of of asserting his own strength. Okay. So as we're talking as we came into the room, we heard the unfortunate news that Doug Lamalfa, Republican congressman from California, had just died and suddenly died 65. I'm attentive to these things. Yeah, we're all attentive to these things anyway. Very unfortunate. And,

condolences go out to his family. It, of course, means that the, difference between the Republicans and the, you know, his family. I don't know his family, but I feel terrible for them that he died. unexpectedly. He doesn't have a family. I don't believe I mean, this conversation. I suspect he has a family anyway. He certainly has constituents. who must be thinking, who are we going to vote for next? And interestingly, the governor has to call a special election. So this now means that the the by my accounting,

the Democrats have 213 seats, the Republicans have 218. And there are four seats now empty. Doug's newly empty as of today Marjorie Taylor Greens. And then there are two other. One is the special election that's going on forever in Texas. And the other is my kid Cheryl in New Jersey, who became the governor. So there's one clear Democratic seat. Well, are probably the, I think there are. I think.

there are two Democratic seats of there's Mickey, Cheryl's, and then the one in Texas was a Democrat and then Democrat. Doug Lamalfa, in California is Republican. And obviously now it is possible that if the two Democrats if the. if the two Democratic seats are replaced, that will give the that goes to 15, that will go to 215 Dems, and that would be 200. if the other two seats that are Republican now, Marjorie Taylor. Greens and Doug Lemon.

But I'm just I mean, that's I mean the math still does not work. I would just look no, no. But if it were that if Democrats got all four, which could happen in a special election, just as a protest vote, they could be one vote within the Republicans. All they would need is one Republican, Thomas Massie. Doug, Don bacon. All right. Well, we're not anyway, the point is, we're close grasping. we're grasping at straws here, but it's close. And Mike Johnson's got his work cut out. Will Mike Johnson be there in six months time?

Yeah. We're handicapping this, I think. Well, I think we should go on Kelce or. Yeah. No he will not be there. Oh wait a minute. Let's let's figure this on terms of the midterms. They'll want a sacrificial somebody for. for the midterms. So so maybe he gets to hang on just so that they can blame him. Oh. That's interesting. So the minute the midterms are over, assuming the Democrats win, well, they're winning back the House.

Yes. Then it's relevant. That would be an irrelevant position. And he he still seems very unpopular. with the Republicans. Well, any speaker would be unpopular. He's not unpopular. He's not as unpopular as past speaker's. Okay. So he Republican speakers. That is right. Democrat speaker's always quite popular. I mean, that's. a reflection of the of the Republican Party, which is another key subtext in this midterm year.

that the Republicans are fractured, the Republicans hate each other, the Republicans hate Donald Trump and say they hate Donald Trump. So it's a cauldron of unexpressed. or sometimes express bile. All right. So, Michael, you've got young children, your friend. from when you were traveling with him as a reporter. RFK Jr is limiting the number of vaccines that children can have,

seeming to me to be on solving problems we have already solved. You know, it's a number, you know, I mean, there's Venezuela over here. So, so, so we're not paying attention to probably the bigger issue and the bigger problem, which is the undoing of the of the health care. system in the United States. By, Bobby Kennedy Jr, former heroin addict at 72 years old,

still junior. And and that that is, that. is going to be a lasting legacy of the, of the Trump administration. The dismantling of health care that has been, I mean, vaccines. that have been one of the major accomplishments of the last 50 years. No, I and all on the part of a of a. of a no, nothing opportunist. I, you know, also attention seeking.

Yes. I mean, also running for president 2028. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And this is all all MAGA base stuff. So this is all a political agenda. It is not a health care agenda. And and health care for a very long time, in, in this country has certainly remained. has certainly been added. to the side of politics or or over.

it has not been a political there has not been a political agenda here. Now, there is a clear political agenda, a clear. political agenda with a political purpose. Bobby Kennedy Jr, at 72, is running for president. And and at. 72, he's still 20 years younger than the judge. who is now overseeing the Maduro trial, who is 92.

Yeah. Well, that that seems extraordinary. But it's it's incredible to some of us. That's good news. RFK Jr. So anyway, so yes. And and I think this is an I've been trying to work this this out. I mean this can't be good for Trump. The this dismantling of the of the. of the health care system, this anti-vax crusade. It is only relevant.

in terms of the support of the MAGA base, which he needs. But at some point, and I think that point is already begun, that that that bleeds grievously. bleeds over into all other voters. So anyway, a point of distraction. Well, anybody who's Venezuela and we will. we will, and pay no attention to the fact that, that, that the that,

your kids are not going to get vaccinated and of course, this week. we had the tragic memorial service for Tatiana Schlossberg, who just died. His cousin. Yeah, yeah, his cousin's daughter, his cousin's daughter. So his first cousin once removed. Whatever. Yes. Who wrote a very eloquent piece in The New Yorker before she died. about how the Trump government are stopping research into essential work to. Yeah. And and sending it on on him.

Yes. On. RFK Jr still at 72. A truly a truly disturbed individual. No, no. And and he is I mean, that's the other thing. And everyone who has had dealings with him over the years, including myself, it's been very clear there's something something wrong here. He is, as many members of his family have said to, yeah. I mean, he spent, you know, decades as a as a, as a drug addict just to begin with.

Yep yep, yep. And now he's trying to end the Narcan program that has actually been. very effective in helping people who've overdosed, especially from opiates. I mean, you can't make it up. You really can't make it up. Governor Newsom now under, threat because. Governor Walz says he's no longer. running for reelection to governor because he couldn't.

spend enough time on his campaign and serve the people of Minnesota. I don't know what happened last time he ran. Somehow he was able to do it last time, but he can't do it now. He looks like he's just thoroughly beaten up and had enough. So he's stepping aside. Maybe Amy Klobuchar will run for his. And what does that have to do with Newsom? Obviously they're trying to, I think get Newsom out of the way. because he seems to be a head and shoulders above. the rest of the Democratic candidates at the moment. You know? Yes, of course. I mean, I mean, and that's what they're going they're going to do.

that's that's their job to, their job as, as Republicans going into a difficult, a difficult election year is to then start to try to pick off Democrats. I mean, but this is not, not exceptional. This is I mean, Trump is is particularly good. at this, but, you know, you got to rise to the occasion. Let's see what Newsom has. Well, I think it's probably be good for Newsom. He's very good at dealing with Trump and taking whatever's going on.

and what this is what, you know, Kamala Harris was not good at this because she was not particularly tried. So, yeah, bring it on. And also, she didn't seem to have the sense of humor that I think helps in this. Well, whatever. whatever the reason, I mean, there's a lot of ways that you have to deal. to deal with this, but you're only going to learn. how to deal with it if you have to deal with it. Right, right. And then, of course, there are the dancing.

videos of Maduro that everybody said actually triggered Trump. Do you think that's possible in the way that I. Absolutely, 100% this is mano a mano a mano. This is just say that again. What was that mano a mano say one more time. Well, that's what you know. It was. Trump personalizes these things. It only really works for him if he personalizes it. You know, and the walls thing. I am against him.

The news thing. I am against him. I need an enemy in the enemy is not an abstraction. It's a person. In this case, it was Maduro doing that via dance. And then. Yeah. And then this. Yeah. And then and then and then to the extent that, that Maduro. remember, they offered him all kinds of stuff, you know, we'll set you up anywhere you want. You know, a luxurious retirement. And, and he said I completely rejected that and then.

and then danced in a mocking fashion, you know, I mean, it it it goes, it pierces Trump directly when you mock him. The thing you must not do is mock Donald Trump. And, so, yeah, he took come out because of that. And his tracksuit, his sweatsuit that he was wearing. You cannot find it for love. No money because it's sold off the shelves is now wait list. Would you like me to put you on the waitlist for one of those?

It's a sort of beige tracksuit, you know, Joanna, I would not we we blacks that. I'm gonna pass on that. So, Michael, as you made the point, the release of the Epstein files didn't really solve anything. It just threw 1.6 million files. out into the open, and people are still wading through them. And with apparently another 5 million to go. Another 5 million? Yes. Oh, I missed that. Yeah. No, this is this is I mean, that's.

Venezuela, of course. It is going to dominate the news for the next X number of news cycles. But then we are going to come back to Epstein. 2026 is going to be the, it's going to be the this is going to be the Epstein year. This is the year of the horse and the year of Epstein and Epstein on the horse. It's the year of moving forward. It you know, it is the year where Trump is going to have to account for this.

I don't know how he gets out of this. I mean, I guess I guess you know, there's many countries to go. Yeah, it's Cuba. Yeah, it's Greenland, Colombia. It's do you think that we're serious about. where do you think the president and Steve Miller are serious. about getting more of Greenland. because, well, it's a totally confusing thing. because we basically we already have everything. we could want out of out of Greenland, Greenland's and a NATO member.

We can put more military bases there. Actually, we used to have a lot of a lot more military bases there. And then we, by our own decision, shrunk it to one. I think it in two to Lee Greenland. And and then we have a variety of mineral rights there. that we can, we can, we can exercise our access. to or the access through American companies to these. I don't know what we get.

Where are we to take over Greenland, except another plot point. Well, there's only 50,000 people there. So what would we or who would we be taking over? We're not going to extract their president because they don't appear to have one. I mean, it's, it's a compromise. I mean, it is just a again, it is, what Greenland represents. something I want or I heard somebody say, well, that that that, that that Trump wants to be remembered as the first American president.

in X number of years who has increased the the Liberator. Yes. The land mass of of the, of the U.S. but again, I think that that's all all that sees it in terms of agenda, even a, even a ridiculous agenda, but it's still an agenda. where what he wants is just to be the center of attention. Well, it's also what Putin's trying to do with Ukraine, right? And then if he gets eventually Ukraine, he can go further into Eastern Europe.

But it's what he has in common with Putin. Well, I don't know. I think Putin has a very clear agenda. He wants to. recreate the Soviet, hegemony. And, I mean, Trump clearly doesn't want to do that. He doesn't want to wreak American hegemony. We already have there already is an American hegemony. And again, Greenland. Why?

For what reason? Ukraine. Yes, you can you can say Putin wants this. for this following strategic reasons. And those are objectionable on so many levels. But but they're, they're clear and they're consistent. Greenland. I mean, Greenland is like this other thing, Venezuela. But if you look at what are these things that they have in common, is that is.

is that you create conflict where there is no threat. In other words, he's not Trump is never going to go. Trump is not going to go into Iraq. Trump is not going into a situation. where actually he might put U.S. troops in harm's way. I mean, in a way that's, I suppose, good. But it's also, it's almost like a mock war.

Right? It's a mock charge. It's like, you know, standing up to an elephant that's mock charging you. is that a good to know? You know what I think? I think it's just, again, it's the theater of this. Yeah. It's performative. I'm doing this. But really, what is at risk? I mean, it's good that there's very little at risk. Except the world order, of course, but that's an abstraction. All right, again, performative. But can you remember the five words?

No, I can remember school. I can remember why. I can remember tomato. And I can remember legs, but, one let me do I think you probably have to do them in the right order. I think you might do legs school tomato. y. And then the. second one is a kind of fabric. Cotton. Yes. Cotton was on there. You've still passed, though. You've still passed.

You faced Evaristo. All right. Some questions for, ask Melania session. Again, for new viewers and listeners, Michael is suing the first lady, the first person to do it. So we're asking for questions so that when he has, under deposition for his anti-SLAPP suit, we have all the questions that you want him to ask the first lady. or the president or anybody else he chooses to subpoena.

Here's a question for Melania. from Stardust Memories. Here's a question Woody Allen film from in South Chicago for Melania. How were you involved with Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein's modeling agencies? Because, of course, it was another fundamental question. And were you involved with recruiting other, girls and women from Eastern Europe, presumably to model? Valid question.

Okay. This is a question from someone called Amy Bull. I would like to know if Glenn Maxwell could also be deposed. If friends of the Trumps can be deposed. Answer. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. So we will get an update from you. on how it's going with Melania on Thursday. Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm. I'm heading from here to a meeting with a lawyers meeting. Oh. That's exciting. Well, it's actually is pretty exciting. All right, so we promise that if you send Michael your books, he will sign them.

He's going to sign today's to Bob MacLennan. Can you sign it here, please? You know, now I have done this, often enough. Now that I know the place, you sign books on the title page. Okay? And you cross your name out there? Incredibly valuable. Okay, Bob, in years to come. Okay. And, who are we signing the software? Signing it to Bob MacLennan. Can I make can I see Bob's Bob? Bob Barr?

Yeah. Barb says she loves listening to the podcast, and she loves your book. Okay. And she's recommended us to her entire psych circle. So, Bob, if you're watching, Michael is signing your book. Thank you to. And she says, by the way, I picked up your book from biblio.com. I noticed that this was a remainder copy, the office a remainder copy. We're also thank you for sending stamps. We're going to send it back courtesy of The Daily Beast.

But if you have one of Michael's books and God knows there's. four of them on Donald Trump and two on Murdoch, and you want him to sign them, he is very happy to do so. Very scribbly signature. Just like the president. Nice thick Sharpie. All right. So if you have been thank you for watching. Don't forget to leave a comment. Tell us what you think about Venezuela. Do you think you could pass the Moca test? Download it and try to find your friend. Do you think you could run Venezuela?

Yeah. Do you think you could run Venezuela? Very good point. All right. We'll be back on Thursday, God willing. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. God willing. And Michael is going to read out, Beast's tier of members. Don't forget, you can join the Daily Beast community. You get extra content, but also you're supporting. independent media, which we really appreciate. And we have these great dinners, which you can. yeah, we're going to start doing dinners, which you're invited to invitation to.

Yeah. Dinners. I've never been invited, but, you're hosting one, you're hosting. And also, don't forget, I'm not sure if they're sold out or not. 21st of January, the 92nd Street Y in New York. Michael and I will be appearing live. And it will be Trump, Epstein, Melania. Maybe a little. Venezuela, but it will be the day after. It'll be a year to the day. since the inauguration of the second Trump administration. So that will be much to review and bring questions.

And we would like to thank our BBC. level members, Yvette Yvette Event Johnson, methinks. And Betsy O'Farrell at Mills and Linz. Shell, Kelly B Max qubit a lot of new names here. Yep. David Sherry, Thomas Moore, Maria volt, Tain de couture. What's Signe Lund, John H.

over rocker Deb k o Strother. Sandra Clark travels with Carl. Andrew Beaver, the all time favorite, the Kappa Nader, Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel dog lover, M Griner, D Stone, Fulvia, Orlando, Herbie. Andrew. Miller, tap.

No. Val. Love, Francesco, Will. Hutcherson, Andrea. Hodel, Bo. Kok, DC, Sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White, and Heidi Riley, it's Andrea Hurdle hurdle at yodel. She actually had to write in. Teller said no name because you wouldn't get it wrong. Anyway, Andrew, we really appreciate it. And thank you for our team, which has changed now.

So I'm, Devin changed Ryan, I'm Kevin Fallon, and I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with finding the best movies and TV to watch and stream. I'm obsessed with all the celebrity gossip you text your friends. about in that group chat. I've spent years bingeing everything worth watching, and plenty of that isn't going to red carpets and private screenings. and talking to the stars for The Daily Beast, everyone from Meryl. Streep to Mariah Carey to Andy Cohen and my best friends.

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