Trump Told Me All His Shady Business Secrets: Prof | The Daily Beast Podcast

None of with anybody. Trump 2.0 presently is that he, saw the branding value in Trump 1.0. It was it was to sell more things and put his name on stuff, the grandiosity. But it's Trump 2.0. It's to keep himself out of prison. And this is what upsets me about people thinking that he's an idiot. because he's would fail the geography contest at Yale and Wharton. than anywhere else, just because there's a lot. he doesn't know, and he is ignorant of a lot of things. He is not stupid. Trump will constantly try to put you on the defensive.

Shifting from diversion to diversion, you cannot fall for it. You cannot try to keep up with all the diversions he creates. You have to stay relentlessly focused on what you want to focus on. Not with Trump. Like. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and we have what I think is a really provocative discussion for you today. with the associate dean of Leadership Studies at Yale. University, Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, has worked with five presidents.

He's worked on and off with Donald Trump. They've sort of been friends and not friends since The Apprentice arrived. And Jeffrey Rosen, incredibly critical review of it, saying, this is terrible. Nothing in this show makes sense for business leaders. And the next thing he knew, guess who was on the phone? Donald Trump. Anyway, this is the book of the Trump Commandments, which explains. how Trump is now president despite having.

a series of bankrupt companies in his background. So just a reminder, before we get into it, we are independent media, so we really appreciate your support. Please don't forget to press the subscribe button on this podcast. And don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast, where you can stay on top of the minute by minute crazy that's going on out there, but no time to waste. Let's get into it. Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. and Stephen Tien, congratulations on the book.

It's now number. one on the bestseller list, and I gather you cannot get copies for love. No money. So I'm holding mine to my chest. But what I wanted to do was start with. I think this is the first business leadership book on Donald Trump, correct? Apart from the Art of the deal. Isn't that amazing? I mean, here he is, the first CEO president, unless you count Harry Truman, who was a haberdasher as a business leader. President. And not that all CEOs admire him or respect them, but still, nonetheless,

nobody in the world of leadership would have studied him. We have plenty of of of smart political pundit friends of ours, many disenchanted insiders, and of course, political scientists. that are quick to categorize him as, as an anti-democratic. or autocratic or demagogue or whatever, but explaining what does he do. regardless of the categories narcissist, fine, what does he do? And nobody's taking a look at what leadership tools he uses. Okay. So one of the leadership tools he uses and you break them down into.

ten commandments. One of them is that he flips his foes. You were a foe of his. You started writing critically about him when he started The Apprentice. at the Wall Street Journal, and he then very cleverly, actually reached out to you. You pick up the story from here. Well, I can't believe you know that part of it is in the book. I read the book the part that I didn't. put in the book, but just since we're close friends, and just between us. is just between us and 450,000 people on the podcast.

Oh that's fantastic. Get some more books by the publisher. Yeah, just a YouTube. I actually went down to Mar-A-Lago just after he bought it with Steve Forbes, to brainstorm ideas about what he might do with it. I didn't know him before then, and I thought his grandiose plans were crazy, but Jeff Zucker knew I had that relationship. Jeff Zucker and as prissy and as you remember. And before he was the CEO of Katie Couric Inc., he was the, it was the head of CNN. NBC had to. say if NBC universal, Jack Welch, head of GE, owned it,

said, get me that show, pointing to CBS's survivor. And he said, I can't. They own Mark Burnett's producer. We can't get them. So Zucker hired him to put him in a business setting, hired Burnett, and then he said, Jeff will you write a weekly column? We'll get, and I'll give it from NBC. We'll give you the show a day in advance. And The Wall Street Journal then will print us under Paul Stigers era. We'll we'll print, your review each week and give us the leadership lessons. Well, you know, I wasn't reading spy that often with our friends.

Graydon Carter and Kurt Anderson, but I knew that they had labeled him The Donald, and he was part of it. And, you know, cognizant or at least the glitterati. But I thought, sure, I'll take a look at I didn't realize. how flamboyant reprehensible a lot of his approaches were. So as I was watching it, I thought, this is crazy. The only way you win and be selected as a leader is by killing off your own team. It's an elimination game. It's like Lord of the flies by Golding reading it over and over again, like, this is where he got that lesson. There's not much of a lesson here.

So, so I thought that the first column was called Last Emperor Trump, and it was then, the first place where in the Wall Street. Journal where I said he's going to run for president. He liked that part, but he didn't like the fact. that I said that this is basically. a musical chairs game, and a Hooters restaurant is the sexist overlay. And the elimination game premise I thought was really problematic is lessons. And he blew up, as you could imagine, sensitive to criticism. Who would have known? So then they said, no more, you can't do the next week.

But then the Wall Street Journal was so happy with the traffic. They said, let him try it next week. Maybe he'll recant. So Trump said, okay, if he rescinds what he wrote, I said, no or I'll take a look. I said, you know, I said I wouldn't rescind, I was wrong, he was right. Last week I said that was the worst possible portrait on television. I could imagine for young people to emulate, for business leadership. But I hadn't seen this week's episode yet. So. So then he then started calling and threatening, and we'd go off to, unexpectedly, Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia or some Paulo, Brazil.

I'd be like, why? They asked me to give a talk bewildered me. because they're bringing him in from another daughter. ReStage battles. We were having on Nightline or Dateline or today's show or whatever. And, he was getting increasingly hostile, threatening and litigious. You remember Tim O'Brien, who's. now at Bloomberg, was the deputy business editor at The New York Times. And he had revealed at the exact same time that Trump wasn't worth at that time. what he purportedly was. And Trump had him in endless litigation. And I thought, I don't need this. So he starts calling me. I did the only grown up thing, which was to ignore the calls.

and my admin at the day, we had an up and down relationship. She now works for Nobel Prize winners. We both had an upgrade. As she put the call through maliciously, and it was him threatening me. And he said, I said, look, let's just agree to disagree. After he went through his blue streak. We've already said it. Everything. And he said, not so fast. I said, I don't know. He said, how would you like to become? He said, you are such a bright young fellow. I said, oh, can you repeat that? I said, which part? I said, oh yeah, that's the most flattery. Very Trumpian. And also reaching out directly. Very Trumpian. Right.

Which is important. He does that with with reporters in a way. that no other president does his transparency. And you're a perfect you have that. Exactly. A lot of times after we became friends, I would go into Trump Tower. and bring left of center. political scientists and sociologists. who said, you're going to walk out liking this guy. There's no way. They always did. Jacob Packard, just to name one, left a set of who likes him to write. You wrote this. Your friendship with him started because you wrote something. incredibly critical, because he's a terrible businessman.

And let's not forget, you have a long list of the businesses that go belly up in here. And he had, you know, his companies had six bankruptcies, not least his Atlantic casinos, where the house always wins, except not in Donald Trump's case, but he actually he flipped. He was a foe. And then one of the other things you talk about in the book is flattery. He reached out to you and said, reach out to me. The the, the Chancellor or the president of Trump University. Can you believe that? He asked me to become the president, Trump said.

My mom would have always liked me to be a good president, but this is not the right next step. But he said, do you play golf? I'm a terrible golfer, doesn't match my disposition. He said, I'll teach you. I thought, I don't need that, but I thought, I don't need the litigation either. So I went there and my wife at the time, it was a single digit handicap golfer and, a, a colleague of mine who's a very mathematical economist, one of the brightest people I know. And if you don't believe me, just ask him. And he I thought he'll wear out Trump. And the sure enough, they both were charmed by him and he said,

look, your friends like me, what's it take to win you over? I said, look, I can't get bought. My wife started kicking me to find out how much. And, and ISIS said, look, it's the premier's wife. Ex-wife, right? Is she? If she is, that's what you said. So. So that was the set up. So I just said, why don't you just get these fallen celebrities? Like, I hated ethnic humor, Andrew Dice Clay and Joan. Rivers and Don Rickles and, Jackie Mason. I've always hated that kind of humor. Get them there. Their careers are collapsing. That became the the origins of The Celebrity Apprentice, which he admits now. I got no royalties from it, but we became friends after that.

I did bring him into one CEO summit, where the top brass, they're the major company CEOs, many of whom are still office. today, said if he walks in here, the Waldorf, we're walking out. He walked in, they walked out. And then, of course, when he won, he didn't mind having me come over to see. They're all coming to see him now and that is president. But well, well, one of the fascinating aspects of the book. is how he takes his foes and brings them on to his side. So JD Vance, he makes him obviously vice president, little Marco.

Well, and JD Vance has called him the new Hitler. Yeah, right. Not little, little Rubio. Little Marco has gone after him, even after his penis size, which sort of takes the debates to a new low. But Trump singlehandedly picks them up, brings them on side. I wanted you to talk about how he does that, but he has this charm that there's a very interesting chapter. where you talk about what Trump is like one on one behind closed doors.

Now, he obviously charmed you. You had written very critically about his show. and how it was the opposite of what a business show should be, but there he is. There you are playing golf. He persuades you. He wants you on the side. He's punking the public. He's aware of it. And when he brings. you backstage, he lets you know that he doesn't take any of it seriously. But he's trying to get away with whatever he can get away with. He told me, and I have it on video that he was going to go. to the left of Bernie Sanders. He thought that was the anger and the populism of this populism.

on the right, too. And there's only with the meltdown of the Ted Cruz campaign, the Steve Bannon was free with nothing to do. That took him on a faster route to the right. But hold on a minute and then Steve and I'll come to you. Don't worry. You're not going to sit there silently. What is it about Trump that made him want to be president? And he didn't care? As you point out repeatedly in the book, he's not ideological, so he wanted a route to get there. Why did he want to be president? It was a a way to make a lot of money.

He didn't think he was going to win when he kept calling me, and he was calling me more than once a day all the way through 2015. But in the spring of 2015, before that infamous elevator ride in Trump Tower, he called and said, should I run? I said, I think you should, and I think you'll get maybe 15 to 18%. like Ross Perot. Maybe you'll crest at 20%. So Ross wrote Perot at Knots about the CIA invading his daughter's wedding, and that'll be it. And he said, yeah, Melania says the same thing. She also thinks I should run.

Said, no, no, I didn't say that. Right. And that's he was off and running. And so that's. But what do you think he's. Colonel? Why does he want to be president? It doesn't really the branding value. He. That's what he wanted it. Well, the first Trump 1.0. And I've known him longer than. anybody except family members and Wilbur Ross and Trump 1.0 no. No longer with anybody in Trump 2.0 presently is that he, saw the branding value in Trump 1.0. It was it was to sell more things and put his name on stuff, the grandiosity.

But it's Trump 2.0. It's to keep himself out of prison. That was much of the incentive because of the misconduct in Trump 1.0. This is his his death march. And this is how the sevens part and the chariot comes down and takes him out. It was the presidency that people didn't think was possible. That's his that's his way. And this is what upsets me about people thinking that he's an idiot because. he would fail the geography contest at Yale and Wharton than anywhere else, just because there's a lot he doesn't know. And he is ignorant of a lot of things. He is not stupid.

He has incredible street savvy. He has the wisdom of he is dumb as a fox, and the fact that he could come back. continually from the four bankruptcies, from all the 34, you know, criminal. conviction, felony charges. Yeah. Well, convictions, you know, as well as the open ones. Right. And and then on top of that to, you know, to come back. after having been driven from office as he was, you got to say, this guy is doing something. He is he has some tools. And that's what we we we find that in the arc of his career, nobody's.

taken a look at the total pattern over the course of his life. He does the same ten things. There's the the philosopher Abraham Kaplan used to talk. about the law of instrument. You give a child a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Trump has ten hammers and he's pounding away at them. Sometimes it works for them. Often it backfires. Jared Kushner, who has gotten to know pretty well, just said, Jeff, you understand them better than anybody. You should write about this. His style is unorthodox and people can't counter him.

Are friends who are who are prominent critics. By just putting a category around them, calling him a name is not going to counter it. Or people who want to support him, aren't helping him just by honking horns. and waving flags. They have to understand him. So, Stephen, what did you think when you embarked on this work? Well, this has been an incredible, incredible journey. And, Johanna, just to pick up on your previous point. about how JD Vance called Trump America's Hitler. and of course, Marco Rubio was, you know, mocking his size.

There's a chapter in the book called The Fluidity of Friends, Foils and Foes. And for Trump, all human relationships, it comes down to power. It's transactional power. That's what matters in relationships, there's no such thing as permanent. friends or permanent enemies, or permanent foes or permanent foils. Everything is situational and context dependent. So you look at somebody like JD Vance and Marco Rubio. Trump understands they command a constituency, they have followers, and Trump thinks it's better to try to drown.

a squeaky wheel in oil than to try to get rid of that squeaky wheel entirely. And he sees the power of having somebody like JD Vance, who called him. America's Hitler, who was one of the most leading opposition voices within the GOP, come and basically prostrate themselves. in front of the religion that is Trump. And that is such a sign of power for Trump to be able. to bring those constituents, bring those followers into Trump's camp. It's why Trump takes such relish in converting former foils into friends.

It's also why sometimes he'll drop friends. Take Sarah Palin Sarah Palin was one of the first. most vocal supporters of Trump's campaign in 2016. This was the first standard bearer of the GOP, the former 2012. vice presidential nominee. And after Trump won the election, Sarah Palin's been publicly vocal. She couldn't even get her calls returned by Trump anymore. She wanted a cabinet position. She never even got her calls returned. She couldn't even get into some of Trump's speeches when she showed up for them. And that's all been public. And same thing with Rudy Giuliani, unfortunately.

You know, as soon as Rudy Giuliani hits some of his issues, Trump was like, I'm through with them. Jeff Sessions, Bill Barr it's a long list, a long list. No. He drops people very quickly. So one of the things I'm really curious about that. you build a case for in the book, which I think a lot of CEOs do, just looking at him through the CEO lens that the leadership lens. is, he surrounds himself. Certainly in Trump too. It wasn't the case in Trump one, but in Trump two, with people. who would not be in any normal cabinet.

They don't have the experience. They don't have any expertise, they don't have the sophistication. So he knows that they are unlikely to be a threat to him. Can you talk about that with Pete Hegseth, seeing as we're now in the middle of, well, potentially in the middle could be at the end, or are we at the beginning of a war with Iran? This is exactly where we start. The book. In chapter one, there's a tribal. positively called perhaps entrepreneurial focus with him,

with the hub at the center and spokes coming off like a wheel. It's, I rarely see that Martha Stewart had once at one of our CEO. summits, draw on her organization model, which is very similar to Donald Trump's. And they, for a little while, in fact, were business partners. But it is. And she replaced him on the series that The apprentice. Right. And he gleefully took pleasure in the fact that her ratings weren't as high. No. And then he set her up on her own show, and that failed when they turned on each other. But that's right, she wasn't mean enough for him, which is amazing.

But it's, he he wants people to have a filial piety back to him. They don't have any legitimacy. They're not anchored as experts in any field. No, there are nobody who who is in the world of military strategy. that considers, Pete has other than a, a person with an alcohol problem. that had a fox a weekend Fox News, post and has a lot. of rough language and an abusive religion, but they don't quite understand. why he's in this job, but he has a filial piety back to Trump. And that's true of everybody in this Trump 2.0 cabinet.

In Trump 1.0, he thought he needed guardrails is his choice. He once told me that he went to studio 54, and with the velvet ropes there. in the stanchions, he saw an old man sitting on the curb in this. I should have put this in the. And he said he, saw that man. He said, can I help you? In a surprising moment of compassion and empathy that Donald Trump had, as he tells it, and the guy looked up, he said, Don Donald, how's Fred? It's Bill, Bill Leavitt. And he said, Bill Leavitt.

This was the guy who was the world's biggest homebuilder solely in the nation, built these. Levittown is all around for returning GIS and everything for the Second World War. And he had sold his company on it, that he bought it back and it all fell apart on him. And Trump walked away shaking his head, saying, you know, he didn't know his limits. He said that was a cautionary tale to me, to always have people around. that would know where the bright line is, because I'll push it right to the line. But if I don't have people around, I've crossed the line. Well, he's crossed the line to you. He said that to me. Fascinating, because in Trump one, obviously he did have.

that said that to me in public. As a matter of fact, he said that in Malaysia. So if anybody can get that recording I was in Kuala Lumpur. He just felt he could let his hair down because you're so far from home, right. But yeah, but he. But you said four. I thought it was six of his businesses went into bankruptcy. Well it's four that I'm aware of. I there's six. Yes. Of course, as you know, it's a long track. record of Trump adjacent businesses to it through all of his branding deals. He's branded everything from Trump vodka to Trump steaks.

to Trump watches to Trump Bibles, to Trump wines, to Trump mortgages. He can't keep track of all the branding deals. He loves the branding deals because that's the core structure of a Trump deal. He keeps all the upside to himself. He offloads the downside to someone else. It's how he approaches business. It's how he approaches life. It's how he always does everything in the world. Unfortunately. Right. Well, so let's just talk about him. using the law in the way he does, and we'll come on to the war. And I want to ask you about that, but you have some really specific.

examples in the book, which I would love you to talk about. In terms of how he uses the law as a bludgeon to go after people. And there's an excellent example of one of his properties in Doral. Doral, in Florida, where he uses Benjamin Moore paint. It's the wrong paint for the wrong job. The paint starts flaking and he then launches a campaign.

against the paint company and against the guy who did the painting. Can you just talk to that unrelenting on. That's one of the great things about this book is we had the opportunity to talk to. we read dozens and dozens of Trump insiders, and this was a fascinating tale that was told to us by his former fixer. Maybe you can guess who it is after Trump himself ordered the cheapest paint. possible, even though everyone around him said, you can't use this paint. Of course, pique says, I'm going to just paint anyways. And then he gets the paint and the paint starts peeling off the walls.

And instead of taking responsibility, because that's not what Trump does, he. of course blames the paint and says, this is junk. I demand a refund. And he sends his fixer to go after Benjamin Moore. And how he does it is very illustrative of how Trump does things. The fixer threatens that, you know, we're going to just file a lawsuit against you. And every lawsuit. we file gets a lot of attention because Donald Trump is Donald Trump. Do you really want to go and flip the cameras and say, Benjamin. Moore paints such of junk quality that it can't even stick to the walls? And of course, Benjamin Moore is like, where this come from?

We'll do anything. Please, Mr. Trump, just leave us alone. We'll do anything. And of course, they give them, you know, truckloads of free paint buckets that he didn't really need. And he's laughing about the whole thing. when it's reflective of how Trump sees the world. But why do people buy it? We know that this is a consistent business practice of his. Why do people fool over? Why didn't Benjamin Moore say, this is ridiculous? You're on your own. An and for example, it's been an interesting experience.

watching Michael Wolff, my co-host on Inside Trump's Head, not take these threats that Melania Trump was going to sue him. for $1 billion and turning around saying, well, actually, I'm going to sue you. And now they're in an interesting lawsuit because he's like, no, no, I'm not. I'm not falling for this. I know what your game is, and I'm a writer. and I can make great content out of this, but you're not taking me down. I don't understand why me? More people don't stand up to him.

I don't understand why Michael Wolff is a good example. He means he's had the courage to do that. And of course, Bob. Woodward and several others, not as many as though you would think. And you'd say, well, how about the whole Republican primary. in 2015 or 2016 as he mowed them down individually? I went to Larry Kudlow s house and and perhaps this probably. should have been in the book. I don't know if this was in there. Like we're getting lots of extras. Yeah, I know, but we didn't write into the book we trust for his 50,000.

Man, I'll tell you this. This needs to go. Larry had a you know, as you can explain who Larry Kudlow was, and he was. he became the chairman of the, Trump's chief economic adviser. And he, at the time was not a Trump supporter. And this was Trump. What this is this is as he was running for Trump 1.0, and the group had about 60 people in a salon style dinner at Larry's house. And reading, Connecticut, with a somewhat to dramatically right of center people. I think he always would have me there for entertainment reasons. I don't know why, but they're very deep pocketed people.

They went around the room as to who their candidates were, whether or not it was Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz or Carly Fiorina or whomever. And then they got to me as the last person, of course, as the most lowliest of stature there. I just said, I think you folks are missing the elephant in the room, which I thought would be a flattering mascot. to a Republican audience and not an insult. And they I said, it's the guy who has 30%. Nobody in this room has. And they all chortled and they said, And one person stood up and. they were laughing and they were sitting, that's a Roger Stone. It's a Roger. You have to agree.

As Trump's former campaign manager, until today, did you quit or were you fired? He said, I quit. He said, well, then you would know. And he said, I couldn't support Trump only because, what he said. about Megan Kelly, the then Fox News host with blood coming out everywhere. I said, oh, so you care about misogyny? I didn't really think Roger Stone was that kind of person. I'm impressed and said, no, I don't care about the woman thing. You said, I can't be a Republican consultant and have my candidate attacking the party. Oh, okay.

So as they went around the room, one woman stood up. The tall, thin woman, she said, Jeff, you know, if you weren't a schoolteacher, you would know what I know. As an expert on the psychographic behavior of women Republican voters, I said, what is that? And this was Kellyanne Conway. She said, let me tell you, I can tell you with authority. that not even 2% of Republican women will ever support Donald. Trump for president, which is why I'm vice chairman of the Ted Cruz campaign. Kellyanne Conway. and Conway said that she went to what she wanted to call me a senior advisor. And then sitting at the next table was Mary Kissel, who is the one of four members of the white of the Wall Street Journal's.

editorial board. And she said, well, it's got to be Carly Fiorina. She's three times as smart as Trump. The Trump's an idiot. She wound up becoming a senior person in the Justice Department, with Trump. or was it Treasury? But she. Yeah. Trish. So, you know, these people, they flip pretty quickly. and it's it's amazing that, they fall in line. They're afraid. You look at CEOs he's taken on just this year, the CEOs of, Jamie. Dimon of JPMorgan, the CEO Brian Moynihan of of, Bank of America,

the Doug McMillon, CEO of Walmart that David Solomon is fighting back. So he's gone after JP Morgan for banking him after, January the 6th. Right. When I'm sure they couldn't get anybody to support taking him. on whatever the banking regulations are, I'm sure they were. The four bankruptcies didn't didn't help either. So. but but the. January the 6th moment was when they deep banks him. He's now suing them but they're fighting back there they are.

and yet sequentially he's taking them on as well as Walmart. as well as Harley Davidson, the CEO of Harley Davidson. Matt Levity was selling bikes 100%, made the U.S. into the EU until, because of reciprocal, trade barriers that they put up in response to Trump's tariffs. We couldn't get U.S. made bikes into the EU. He had to shut down a factory, in Kansas City. It opened one in Thailand. So the Thai bikes could go into the EU. But 100% of American bikes were made in America that were sold here.

Trump said he took that as a personal offense, he said to his MAGA. following, which is heavily, tied in with MAGA with Harley Ryan. And meanwhile, his his his employee is leading somewhat anti MAGA. The CEO is not political. just trying to pilot the company down the center of the road. The world, Trump tells them, don't buy Harley's. The stock plummeted and the CEO got fired. And what they have failed to learn, which the Business Roundtable. has failed to learn. Even Jamie Diamond, who once chaired the Business Roundtable,

the Doug McMillan, who as the head of Walmart, chaired the Business Roundtable, they're not standing by them. as like Benjamin Franklin said, although I shouldn't. quote that to you, to not be offensive here, too, given the heritage issues, is that if we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately. Is that the CEOs periodically? At one point, in 2020, we pulled together because they wanted me to, 93 CEOs. We called 100 of them overnight. When Trump declared himself the victor in the 2020 elections in November, we pulled them together on 12 hours notice, and 93 of them came out.

with a very strong statement of of, you know, condemnation. Right. And you have evidence show we don't see it. Here's who won. Congratulations. And that became the script that Bibi Netanyahu and XI Jinping and Bush. 30, Bush 41 used, and it certified the truth, because that's the critical role of business leaders. And when Tocqueville came to this country and wrote Democracy in America in 1840, he said, it takes leaders, business. leaders and leaders two pillars of the community to certify the truth, because our laws, to the surprise of many, were intentionally written to be loose.

because we'd have people speak out for what what the truth is to certify it. So they did on that occasion. But they've missed it recently. And this is the trouble we have seen sequentially. Business leaders, and until quite recently the clergy have been too cowardly. Trade union leaders have been too cowardly. Well, you saw the pope speak out on Palm Sunday saying enough with this language. around, praying for people to go and kill other people clearly, directly at Pete Hegseth directly, a PSA, which is a measure of France. We haven't seen the evangelicals take a counter position just yet.

They're they're concerned because, of course, in this country, I think they got Catholic voters about 22%. That's pretty significant. And this is exactly why we wrote the book, because in order to counter Trump, you have to understand how Trump operates and what his methods are. Regardless of what you think about the guy, you can't say, we're normalizing him because we're not. But in order. to actually understand what he does, that is the crucial prophetic words. in order to be able to counter him because he uses certain methods.

For example, as Jeff said, divide and conquer. He will try to pit the CEO of Walmart against target, GM against Ford, Boeing. against Lockheed Martin, NAFTA in Mexico against Canada, France against Germany. This is how he sees the world. It's chapter three divide and conquer. And you have to understand, if you were seeking to resist. Trump's divide and conquer tactics, as Franklin said, surely you must hang together or you will hang separately. You have no stores in the EU or that with Greenland. We just saw that a month and a half ago. It was remarkable, even though they had failed on earlier.

occasions somehow was here's former an EU, the UK and Canada. They rose up together and barked back at him and what does he do? He melts when that happens. He chickened out. He chickened out. But that's another lesson. And that's why we wrote the book. Take his negotiating style. He opens with the punch to the face. Let's talk about his negotiation style. I absolutely love that. I mean, you. you, referenced the Zelensky interview where he goes immediately after Zelensky. You talk a lot about how he opens with his most aggressive offer.

and then frequently backtracks from it. But but talk a bit more about that most times and not most times. Any time anybody you'd interview here from either sector of, government. service or private sector or independent sector from nonprofits, or any political party, or even former Boy Scouts like myself. They'll tell you that, like building the fire is how you build trust. You get little sticks and tinder and kindling. and maybe some branches, and you start building and more and more.

until the it catches before you put in a big, thick, heavy green log. Trump takes that big, thick, heavy green log, smacks you in the nose with it to start. because he thinks after that everything else is going to look reasonable. And why do people fall for it? And I mean, I still find it. incredible that a businessman with that number of bankruptcies, as you say, he slapped his name on absolutely everything. He can't remember what he slapped his name on. A man who pretended that he was a businessman on television,

gets to be president. of the United States of America, the leader of the free world. The smoldering embers of the, Iranian government. seems to be still not be falling for that when he keeps threatening them. as sequentially that he's going to wipe out the the entirety of their. electrical generating infrastructure and whatever else. And talking about even extending even further today, in terms of wiping out. desalination plants just moments ago, is they don't take it seriously.

They they know that he be getting widespread condemnation. They know this. He's not going to get there's limits that even he would try. So they're not falling for it. I'm not saluting what Iran is doing. But just like the the EU, the UK, and Canada challenged him and he melted away. He's hit a wall right now. Some of his tricks are not working, and he's not quite sure what to do. in the divide and conquer. Certainly backfired by insulting our allies so much. Not only is NATO, of course, created to be a defensive organization.

to protect somebody who's been attacked when the US was the aggressor, they didn't have justification. It's also quite far away from the North Atlantic. Treaty Organization to have domain. Still, it's hard for them to justify it. Obviously their self-interest. And clearly in the straits of of of Hormuz for them to get, oil and other cargo through for Europe and elsewhere. But still, it's backfired on him. But he's made so many enemies. But what's interesting is Jared Kushner has countered this. He's managed to stitch together an alliance, even though Trump hates alliances,

because that's how you take down a bully is through a collective action. Right now, the the Saudis are perhaps even more aggressive than the Israelis, and the US in taking on Iran and the Emirates, too, and that they are. actually going to join forces and perhaps some others. I actually worked with Jared and, in support of the earliest days. of the Abraham Accords is that that was remarkable. It was it did support Trump's unorthodox style, like giving Jared the credit for it, because, again, Trump doesn't like to stitch together alliances in Jared Ford.

People will say about him getting a percentage of every deal. and everything else. And that's fine. He does have an ability to be a very quiet, effective backstage negotiator. This was Jared suggestion that you write this book. In fact, what you've written, I think, I don't know that he's going to protect me. from an IRS general compliance order, but but yes, I was going to say, I think what you've done is written a blueprint for Democratic candidates. to take Donald Trump's methodology seriously and counter it. So if you exactly are we allowed to hug you on the set?

That's exactly nobody has gone. That's exactly what it is. Instead of calling names, trying to figure out what he does, to learn how to counter it. Right. So what would you recommend people do? You're a student of people's leadership style. We've established that an enormous part of what Donald Trump, does. is create noise and drama and grab the attention. But actually, it's possible to push back against him either. with an alliance or just by taking a, a just by saying, no.

You see what happens when he goes after people and they don't engage, or they just say, no, and there are people he doesn't go after. So. if you're. read if I'm reading this book and I'm a Democratic presidential. candidate for 2028, what what should I be looking at? Where is Trump weakest? If you want to counter Trump, depending what your. your objective is, there are different lessons from this book. If you're Gavin Newsom as governor, Newsom from. from California is completely different than Governor Ned Lamont from Connecticut.

Governor Lamont is not running for president. Governor Ned Lamont wants to try to figure out how to reverse some ridiculous. denial of funding of already granted wind energy projects and various other things. And, we are a very large defense contractor. He doesn't want to kick the guy in the face. Gavin Newsom doesn't have that objective. He'll kick him in the face. So chapter ten in here, which has to do with the grandiosity. and drawing on the the Ozymandias Shelley poem and everything else. about how some statues in the stand, I think, sound just fade away with time.

They don't have the impact they think they do. If there's anything Trump hates losing more than money, it's pride. So that's what Gavin Newsom goes after. Ned Lamont knows exactly. Stay away from that. Let me try other ways so he'll build coalitions. That shows you something, have something of value. Trump will go so far to embrace Mayor Mondale. because he says Mondale, he sees that he's got a following, a constituency. So Governor Lamont will show that I've got. he's got something of value, his knowledge.

He has a very reliable eco structure for the defense industry. So whether or not it's it's, Pratt and Whitney, whether or not it's, Lockheed, the submarine building that we do, there's a, there's a lot of the southern Connecticut that Trump needs. So he'll take a look at how can he do things that Trump needs in. the Trump will reverse position instead of instead of insulting him. Gavin Newsom it's a different approach. So the Democrats who want to take him down should learn that. They also should learn to divide and conquer, that Trump desperately tries.

You know, he was trying to play a Bernie Sanders versus Chuck Schumer or whatever it is. He's going to try to create wedges and flatter people from time to time. to our shock and amazement. It shouldn't be. To our shock and amazement we saw just two weeks ago, he flattered, you know, of all things Elizabeth Warren, Senator Warren driving his car. She's so, giggly and excited. The president states. called her who she was just tearing the shreds seconds earlier. Oh, he. he chose her to talk about interest rate ceilings, and they could form an alliance. on all this. And, and so he can do that and create fissures.

They should watch that. He doesn't do that. He's very good. So he may well end up splitting. or pitting Democratic candidates against each other. This is what he's going to try to do, right. And they should not let that happen. It's just another lesson. This book also extends far beyond the Democratic candidates running. for president. If you're a grassroots Democratic activist, this book is for you too. Because in order to counter Trump, you have to understand how he operates. He will set traps and you have to be careful not to fall into those trap. So I'll give you one quick example. Chapter six.

We have the Wall of Sound, Trump's perpetual noise machine. The perpetual distractions. Take all the affordability issues, all the domestic issues. where poll after poll shows Trump is consistently polling underwater. What an Epstein? What does Trump do to divert the narrative away. from affordability, away from Epstein, away from domestic challenges? First he goes and he snags Maduro out of Venezuela. Then he creates an entirely invented issue over Greenland. The pitting or NATO allies against each other.

Then, of course, he goes to war in the Mideast with the Iran conflict. even going so far as the the horribly racist. caricatures of the Obamas and monkey outfits is intentional. That wasn't an accident. It also wasn't as impulsive as people thought. just because it came on the late night Truth Social post. It was an intentional device he had. He's the only person will ever know of that actually will shoot themself. in one foot and hurt themselves to take the attention off the other foot. Is he because he knows he'll create something else tomorrow, even negative,

almost anybody we'd know would try to substitute positive imagery. with negative imagery. With positive imagery. He doesn't care. He substitute positive. Negative with even more negative if he wants to get you off of something. And I told, the producers of most of the Sunday news shows that I know on a Friday afternoon. I did this two weeks ago. I did it last week. Everything you think you have scripted. My daughter works for one of them that you have scripted. You think you're going to do on Sunday. It's not going to happen. They said no to. because he was kicking. the ball down the field and everything on Epstein to affordability,

to whatever else they thought they were going to talk about. It went right out the window ice that went right out the window. They wound up talking about whatever nonsense. he created as a an intentional diversion. Venezuela is a perfect case in point. He didn't have an explanation why he went in there. What was the imminent threat? He initially said it was Russian and Chinese warships. Well, that disappeared quickly. That wasn't the case then he said it was drug interdiction. And right away people brought up. Or how about the president of Honduras, right. Who he just pardoned? He just pardoned a guy who actually was, transporting drugs into the U.S.

we didn't see much in the way of illicit drugs from Venezuela coming in. We have problems. with with Mexico and mainly China, with illicit drugs coming in here. Juan Hernandez had been sentenced for 45 years. He was extradited. He was indicted, and then he had a jury. Can, convicted him of multiple charges. And then the judge. sentenced him for 45 years, and then Trump just one month earlier. And that was over. The drug charges got out. That wasn't it. So then he said it was at the behest of the US oil industry. I personally called several of the.

And this was also not in the book as well. It just is in the books. Matter of fact, on the TiVo, what happened is he called the heads of the drug. the he didn't. he didn't record that the oil industry I did and they said that was false. We have no interest in reifying the ugly American imagery of the 1950s and 60s. We had you know, Chiquita and all their predecessor companies. or or when he called them all together and have that meeting. and they defied him and they looked they looked bored. One of them said, Venezuela is un investable.

The CEO of Exxon. Exactly. They had they have no interest in that. They didn't know what that corroded infrastructure, that thick, heavy, sour crude as it's called, is for asphalt and lubricants. You can't convert it into gasoline anyway. So this is nonsense. It was all it was. It was just a distraction. Just a distraction. So just to bring the distraction point to closure, what is the lesson for Democrats? There is you have to stay focused on your own message. Trump will constantly try to put you on the defensive, shifting from diversion to diversion. You cannot fall for it. You cannot try to keep up with all the diversions he creates.

You have to stay relentlessly focused on what you want to focus. on, not with Trump the right. So you cannot let him set the agenda right. So I came across a quote in your book. I I've written down so many quotes, I found such an interesting book. and I was on. sometimes I was arguing with you at the time times I was agreeing with you. But but there was one here that I thought was super interesting. Donald Trump's career path is not that of a conventional. politician, businessman, or media titan, nor that of scholar, historian, psychologist, global diplomat, military leader or economist.

Yet he disrupted each of these. fields, revealing enormous gaps in what the experts. presumed to be the realities of their respective domains. His leadership instincts frequently match. this research of decades of scholarship and academic theory, which he never needed to read to deftly intuit and deploy. Now we know he doesn't read very much. We know he doesn't like experts.

We know he talks when people come in the room. If you talk to anybody. who's tried to show him a PowerPoint, he closes them down. So. just tell us. what sort of intelligence does he have? Because you're right, he's ferreted out gaps that he's able to exploit. Why are you laughing? Was this your line? Was this your paragraph was Jeff's favorite line from the introduction. That's why I'm laughing. Because. Okay. Jeff's favorite. Very good job. He doesn't believe in experts. He's a very good listener, though.

When I went in, he's a very good listener. I went in with this guy, Jacob Hacker. I shouldn't have named it, but political scientist from Yale, he was grilling us about gerrymandering, and, and Jacob walked out thinking, gosh, I don't think he was interested. in reforming. I said, I assure you, he's not interested in beforehand. He was like, he didn't know what it was, but but you could laugh at him not knowing what it was. But he now knows what it is and how to manipulate it. And that's what he listens for. He listens very carefully. And does he listen because he can't read?

I mean, there's a lot of discussion about whether or not he's dyslexic. or he just can't read. He's illiterate. We know that. He got sent to military school because he was performing so badly at school. No one seen his college transcripts. There are never any books around in the white House when he's there. And of course, he mocks Joe Biden all the time for the autograph. Pam. So I'm fascinated. You say he's a good listener, which is often a sign of someone who's disliked. We don't know if he's a dyslexic. He's been making fun of dyslexia recently, as we know, by.

taking on Gavin Newsom, calling it a, you know, a cognitive defect or calling it. the weak mind or whatever it is. But we don't know. We don't know what his grades were at Penn. And I don't know why he doesn't read, but I'm glad he doesn't, because he'll look at this book jacket, which is mildly flattering, and hopefully he'll like it and fall for the, and miss the George Eliot admonition about not judging. a book by its cover is he'll maybe he'll like the cover and will be saved. But if he reads it, it's something different is that he doesn't.

believe in zebras. For example, with the Abraham Accords, we had legions of of Democrat, Republican, Bush, Obama, an earlier era, Mideast experts as well as experts from around the world. He to their credit, they had some 30, different nations represented. There are a lot of Europe all saying that what he wanted to do was wrong, but he listened and he saw, you know, the world Bank investor here, the IMF there. And Trump heard I didn't know this, that the, the, the, the, the, what.

they were trying to do with greenhouses didn't connect the desalination plants. Well, I didn't know. So it was it was hodgepodge and that the power plants didn't connect. to the desalination plants that they had there. and that so things that they they didn't have a workable system. So they came up with a comprehensive plan. And it was actually which is we had. Princess Rima with us, the ambassador to Saudi Arabia, to the United States. It was just so frustrating that at the, towards the end of the Biden administration, we were there about 8 to 10 days right away from actually signing. the final stage of the Abraham Accords.

That would have brought the Saudis and others. in, is that they had a fantastic plan that was comprehensive. So this and, again, I'm not endorsing Trump. I, I'm sort of endorsing Jared or what they had there is that with Morocco, UAE, and, and. other countries, signing on board. there, it was, it was quite promising. It was an alliance that was going to work, but that somehow Trump saw. that there was a missing piece that none of the experts understood. The experts were just too fragmented.

He doesn't see it that way. The way he kept pushing. the United States Constitution or be a constitutional law expert. How much? We learned a lot about the weaknesses of our own government. that we didn't have, the checks and balances. that we thought there by him constantly pushing. Well, how about this? Well, how about that? Why can't I do this? Why can't I do that? And Trump uses very intentional methods to undermine expert authority. I'll give you two of his favorite tactics. Number one, he loves to invert hierarchies of power. He put PDX at the top off and a lieutenant as the secretary of defense.

in his first term. I think Mark Esper topped off as a lieutenant colonel as well. Then the lowest ranked military men to ever serve as secretary of defense, Dan. Kaine, his current Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman, star general, not a four star. general in charge of a bunch of four star. general, the lowest ranking general to ever hold that position. He loves putting the subordinates in charge of the bosses. to invert the hierarchies of authority so that he's not boxed in, so Trump calls all the shots another favorite tactic. Look at how many jobs Marco Rubio has right now.

He's secretary of state, his national security advisor, who's national archivist, who's running USAID. I mean, it's basically running Venezuelans. The fluidity of those roles so that they have it back to chapter one. They have the filial piety. They're beholden back to him, and it backfires on him when they don't have. the legitimate authority as the courts who would rule whether or not their agency. heads or cabinet heads or, or or, U.S. attorneys, they, they.

wind up not being able to execute what they wanted to do. because they don't have the fishing authority. But there's another really critical lesson that ties into. the next round of elections. We have to watch out for that. This country falls. victim to regularly, and that is something which we've called the sleeper effect. But it's not our term. It was actually a term that was created back at Yale's Yale School of Mass. Communications in the 1950s, were studying what gerbils and others did in the 30s. And this is not an overblown, alarmist parallel. It's the truth is, it was the big lie as as Goebbels called it, the Third Reich is what they do is they take something.

And if you tell it's sophisticated audience. both sides of the story and implant 3 or 4 floors in there. So our friends think, oh, I've heard both sides. Let's say our friends are sophisticated. Us presume they heard both sides, but they're driven only. It's like a street magician here with shell games on the street. You think the trick has already. been done in the set up in advance, so they're driven to one side, and you tell those who don't care. about the details of it all, they don't have the time or the interest. One side of the story, and regardless of one side or two sides,

you keep pounding away at repeating and repeating and repeating. so that, the source of news guard may come along, Steve Brill may come along. and Gordon Groves and say, well, that's not the true or, or is the Poynter Institute or some other fact. checker, the Washington Post or whomever. It doesn't matter. They discredit that, challenge. And they and the message live. research shows the message lingers that if they keep repeating it. and almost the sociopathic way people think, well, they're so sure of themselves. so that you can get 22% of the country to believe that Haitian refugees.

are eating their neighbors pets, even though the Republican governor, mayor, and police chief of, you know, Springfield, Ohio, are saying it's not true or you get people to believe, even though 64 courts, including those who are dominated by by Trump, judges. that and his own a top election officials saying the elections were honest in 2020. and that he'll get people convinced that only the top of the ticket, all the down. ballots were just the top of the ticket was somehow manipulated. It's ludicrous, but they get people to believe it. And that's that's the problem. All right.

So final question, do you think and this is to both of you, do you think Donald Trump knows what he's going to do next. in the bombing raids on Iran, this war in Iran? Do you think that he knows what's next? I you know, we think that he is trying. to do something right now to tamp down expectations. Ironically, the alliance with the Saudis and the Emiratis is backfiring on him. a little bit.

because they're talking about. how they're going to help fortify a military campaign. And as we see thousands and thousands of soldiers. coming over there, it's pretty clear he's he's going to at least go. for the enhanced uranium at a minimum, if not the Straits of Hormuz or. or another barrier island, it's going to have a critical role. The he definitely has some sort of a of a ground invasion in mind. But he's trying to it. Don't look over there. Look over here. And it's. That was not working for him. Do you think he's going to end up then like the fellow he saw on the street?

Who? Mr. Levitt, Bill Levitt, who overreached. Is this Donald Trump's overreach? He's meandering that way. If he winds up with, a lot of our soldiers in harm's way as this looking the vulnerability. to have all these people on ships, for example, just a city there as targets. We have some catastrophe. It's going to be way over his head. For Trump, it's all about power. That's what it comes down to. And in this case, he's created such a massive,

overwhelming buildup of the US military in the Mideast. It's such a disproportionate balance of forces that, you know, he's tempted to use those forces no matter what he says. He's a mastering the art of deception. Don't read his truth social posts too literally, because a. lot of that is just smoke and noise, but because he cares so much about power, and because he's created the environment for such an overwhelming projection. of force in the Mideast, there's a good chance. that he will want to use that power.

Well, I think Jared Kushner, the son in law, is going. to regret suggesting that you write this book. And I think the Democrats, anybody running organizers, community leaders, any candidate is going to pick this book up and see it as the blueprint. on how to defeat Donald Trump, which is to humiliate him. and is to fight back and not to take his bullying seriously. Anyway, I say that as someone who's been called a lying sack of shit. by Donald Trump. So which is a badge of honor?

Badge of honor? I'm taking it as a bad number six. on Putin's list of enemies of the Russian Federation. These are badges of honor. The badges of honor. We share our badges of honor. Well, thank you, Stephen Tien and Jeffrey Sonnenfeld for coming into the studio. And I hope they get more books back in stock. You know, when I was reading this book, I really sort of. was arguing with it as I read because I didn't want Trump. to get some of the credit for the things that he does. But you've heard Jeffrey and Stephen argue.

about why he does. deserve, and I agree with them on this to be taken seriously. He is, after all, the president. He's creating all sorts of havoc around the world. We know some of the reasons he does it because he wants attention, because he's desperately trying. to distract from the terrible things that are going on here in America. But you make your own mind up. And when you do, let us know what you think about the book, but also let us know what you think about this conversation.

You know, I love reading the comments. I share them with our guests and we get lots of ideas and advice from you. And as David Rothkopf said on Monday, it's a community. It's a community of people who care about America, who care about democracy, and who want to keep it. So thank you. If you have been for joining us, don't forget subscribe to the podcast. As I said at the top, we're independent media. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.

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