Trump's Twisted Move to Distract from Epstein | Inside Trump's Head Podcast

Welcome to the inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head. It's a dark and strange place. We're going to be spelunking there twice a week, but we have our guide, Michael Wolff, to ensure we don't get so lost. We can't find our way back. And today we'll be focusing on Michael's exclusive conversations. with people in the white House who believe that on Friday, Donald. Trump will get ready to give away chunks of Ukraine. just to move the narrative away from the Jeffrey Epstein story, which is beginning to really drag on his presidency.

and have the MAGA base turn against him. All right. I'm Joanna Coles from the Daily Beast. I'm Michael Wolff. And what are we doing here? We're going inside a fearful place. Donald Trump's head, Donald Trump's head. And the reason we're doing it is because we know. that there are hundreds of journalists covering the Trump administration, and they're covering it very well. But I have always I think they're covering it poorly, but.

Okay. Well, I want to say that because I know it's hard to cover this stuff, but the reason that I love talking to you about Donald Trump. is because I think you have. a completely different perspective, and you cover it from the point of him. not being a politician, not behaving by the rules, and you're not lamenting the fact he's not behaving by the rules. You're just leaning into who he is, which is ultimately a performer,

a television producer, and someone who is craving, who is desperate for attention and will do anything to get it. You know, it's also a different and I have I have tried to make this case. so many times, and it appears I'm made it badly because it never. I never quite I you never quite get across the point. that I am not covering this as a journalist. I'm covering this as a writer and as a storyteller. This is about character.

It's not about policy. It's not about process. When you think about Donald Trump, you have to think about this, this guy, this this person who is doing things for a whole. variety of reasons that really have nothing to do with politics. They have all together to do with him. what he wants, what satisfies him, what weird cravings. he has, what inner the inner. demons are, are, are going on?

What, What dominance? In the end, it's all about dominance and attention, but again, not about politics, about this. very, very unique person. A person like this who we have never seen. in the modern history of American politics. And what I find so interesting is his ability to, by sheer dint and force of his character,

to force the entire Republican Party to fall in behind him. And in fact, to really begin. to squeeze the American institutions, which are supposed to protect. American democracy without wanting to sound to handwringing about it, he has been able to squeeze them in a way that I think was unanticipated. And we have talked about this a lot on the Daily Beast podcast, and we decided to spin this off as a separate podcast,

because we have been overwhelmed by the response from from viewers. on YouTube, from listeners on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, and the sheer number of comments which were simply not able to address. But we want to try and address more of the themes they raise in inside. Trump's head, where we are going to focus entirely on what the hell is going on. Let me let me go. Crazed place. Let me go back to that institutional point, the breaking of institutions that you just just made.

So, in July 2017, I was sitting in the West Wing with Steve Bannon in Steve's office. So this is, what, five, five, six months. after Trump has been elected and assumed the president? Yes. And, and Bannon's view at that point was that this was that. Donald Trump was in some sense a tragic figure because.

because the institutions in American life. were so strong, so determined, so. in, in a. position to, to protect themselves. And Donald Trump was just one man against these institutions, and they were the deep and and he would, Bannon thought, lose in this battle. He would lose.

So the and that was an interesting perspective. But the more interesting perspective which we are seeing now. is that he hasn't lost. Actually, the institutions have lost. Well, and we as Americans, arguably have lost to. I mean, arguably the world has lost, right? I mean, I just had a friend staying from Europe and she said, everybody in. Europe is now just hanging on Trump's every word, not only for the tariffs, but now, because this week he's. going to have his summit in Alaska with Vladimir Putin. And everybody in Europe is just trying to figure out what on earth.

is going to happen to Ukraine. But let's just go back to the moment where you're sitting in the white House. Steve Bannon has invited you in. You end up spending how many months there of eight months, and you write the first book about Trump's presidency, which shows us the insanity of how he runs things. Right? I mean, that books fire and Fury, which which, which I think did the, you know, up up until that point,

it was very hard to characterize this guy, partly because people, the media journalists, continued to see him in a political context. There must be a method here. There must be cause and effect. He must have goals that he wants to achieve. Policy goals, when in fact none of that, I believe. None of that is true. I and I think it's still haunts the way we the way.

the the way the mainstream media has. thinks about him and writes about him. But I think the truth is completely, completely different from that. I mean, at a polar opposite, he's not interested in policies, not interested in process. He's not interested in politics. He is interested in Donald Trump. Well, and to be fair to Donald Trump, whatever you think of him, he has made politics interesting.

to a much larger swathe of people. If you think about the way politics used to be reported, it was always through the lens of these fantastically, erudite political reporters. who sort of handed down almost insider info. And it always felt dumb from the outside. And as a reader, as someone trying to understand how first in Britain and then in America, things were actually being run, I didn't feel I really understood it.

It didn't feel it felt too well. It felt dry. And suddenly we have a character who comes along. And possibly you could argue that about Bill Clinton, but you come along, Donald. Trump comes along and elbows everybody else out of the way. Well, I think it's more extreme than that. I mean, I mean, we are this has been I mean, what is Donald. Trump, the Donald Trump era been about? It's been about. government by one person.

No one else means anything. And no one is able to stand up to him. Well, no one can stand up to him because nobody he just is. I it's a process. Yeah. I mean, it's it's his dominance, but also the fact that he just. is unconcerned about about what anyone else says. He doesn't actually in, in real time, ever listen to what anyone else has said. I mean, I always think that that's that's a.

is a key thing that people that people overlook. Look, he doesn't stop talking. This is not an exaggeration. When you are with him, he just goes on. There is never a moment when you can get anyone can get a word in edgewise. Well, and there are also stark differences between how he's living in the. white House now than when he was living that first time around, his daughter and son in law, Jared.

And if Jared Kushner and Ivana Trump nowhere to be seen, his wife Melania Trump. nowhere to be seen. Well, she was really the. truth is not really there in the in the first white House. And it's really not there now. Really not there now. Jared is still there. Well, he's not very there's no no, but Jared can and that's what. everyone in the white House will tell you can, can at any moment. Bigfoot. Anybody. Okay. Well that's. Yeah. No no no.

Yeah. No. We should spend some time on on on that the Jared hidden hand. You know, Susie Wiles, the the chief of staff. It's a Jared appointment. Okay. So let's let's come back to that. All right. Well, the the point of this podcast, the point of this podcast is. that we're going to be doing special. episodes around certain characters that are very important. within the Trump world. And obviously we're going to be responding to the news,

but this is going to be twice a week where we go deep, dark spelunking. into the head of Donald Trump and there and focus on that. That is both both metaphor but. and and and actual what, what is in this what what motivates him? Why is he doing something? Why is this happening? Why is this moment different from another moment? And that is because he woke up this morning and.

and and had indigestion in the night. Whatever. But again, all about everything that happens, everything 100% is because of the whims, desires and upset stomach of one man, the upset stomach woman that's just so unpleasant to think about. And just for those who don't know, Michael's entire, at least on Trump, you've written for bestselling books.

There is no one better to set up. as a guide to this dark place that we're going to go. So let's start with this week. We wake up on Monday morning to a Trump. Suddenly stage press conference, where he announces that Pam. Bondi is basically going to take over the policing of DC. because he claims that DC is now hell on earth. It's overrun by criminals. Partly to do with the fact that Big Balls, one of the younger.

members of Elon Musk's Doge team, has gotten beaten up. And actually he looks very frightening. He's covered in blood. It looks scary. He's supposedly defending the owner of a young woman. They were attacked by a gang or he was attacked by a gang. What's this all about? Well, this is actually about. Let me go back. About a week or so or ten days. when, when Trump started to say.

to everyone who would listen, and everyone listens to Donald Trump, but in the to staffers and on the, on the phone. calls, the relentless phone calls that he's constantly making. He said, I need a big thing. I need a big thing. I need a big thing. What's the big thing? And everyone understood that this was code for. I need a distraction from Epstein.

What's the thing that will move us beyond that? And there were a lot of a lot of suggestions. I mean, one and in some of this. got a got a little, a little traction. There was this suggestion to make Donny the New York, the New York mayoral candidate, make him the villain. You know, he's the socialist left wing who came out from nowhere, who beat Andrew Cuomo in the Democratic primary for New York mayor.

Right. And so let's make him the villain. He's a Brit. He's a, you know, he's a real left winger. Will will go after him. And they tried that a bit, but it also doesn't. seem a big enough idea to distract from the MAGA base. Is fury over their refusal to release more of the Epstein? Absolutely. So it didn't it didn't get that traction. Yeah. I mean, Epstein is still goes on behind everything. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. That drumbeat. Then there was the suggestion let's put troops into another city.

Remember, they put troops into LA. And that certainly commanded headlines for, you know, that was the week. Yeah, that was right a week. Right. And then Epstein overshadowed that, but, obviously now, they have taken that a step further, and we now have troops in Washington. So we've got the National Guard deployed, and Pam Bundy's.

taken over the Metropolitan District of Policing. Right. And this is this is a big deal. And we should spend let's spend a moment on that. But in having this Trump going around saying, I need a big thing, I need a big thing, he came up with the big thing now, which is always this way Trump, Trump's operate, which is to say to ask a question and then. and then answer it himself. But is that because he's he hasn't got people around him.

who can think as diabolically as he can about how to shift the narrative? Because as you're always reminding us, he is a television producer. Well, he he is that. But even if there were such people, he would not be able to hear them because he doesn't listen. I mean, I can again, and I cannot stress this enough. There is never a moment. in which anyone can interrupt. It doesn't matter who you are.

He would do well on this podcast then, because all the comments. last week are about how I interrupted all the comments. In fact, I began to think they were coming from an Albanian, but well, I and then we can put you into the white House and see how you do. Right? I would like to see if I could even begin to interrupt him. I'm sure I couldn't. So so that that is is. it doesn't he is going to answer. We need a big thing. We need a big thing. What's a big thing?

A do we know a big thing? I need a big thing. So and this is. And then he got to the big thing. Well, he's got two big things this week. because the other big thing that he got, which he announced last week, was he's meeting Putin for summit in Alaska on Friday. So he's bookending the week with two big. Well that is actually that is what he got. to I'm going to have to do Ukraine. So he had been trying to avoid that. because but I'm going to have to do it.

Why am I going to have to do Ukraine? Because that's the give to MAGA. So wait a minute. When you say do Ukraine, what do you mean? I know he's been promising that he could solve this war. Well, that's what that's what he you know, I mean, I think do. Ukraine means, means of. give MAGA what it wants on Ukraine. And what does MAGA want on this American to pull out? Yes. Yeah. America not to be involved in foreign wars.

America want to give. Yes. So in other words, he in he's going to sacrifice. Ukraine for Epstein. Essentially, he's going to say, essentially. this is this is, in his mind, a trade. It is the MAGA people who have pressed this. Epstein issue constantly. I mean, they're the threat. It's not really the, the, the, the liberals who are who are the threat.

It's the MAGA people. So he will trade out and he knows he understands how exposed he is. on Epstein. So he will trade out for, a trade mag, trade Epstein for Ukraine. And and you're getting this from exclusive conversations. you've had with people in the white House? Yes. I mean, and so this is what now, the interesting thing about people in the white House. is that they really don't know what he's going to do either.

I mean, and so they spend as much time speculating about what's in his head. as we are going to go in and spend time doing exactly that. Okay. But this is this I mean, this is what they're they are interpretation. Why are we doing this? Why why is, you know, he was off. Ukraine trying to avoid that because it's intractable. And, and, and and trying to avoid,

avoid going into a meeting just with Putin. So, I mean, up until now or more recently, I mean, there's been several changes in this, but more recently it's. we all only sit down with Putin if Zelenskyy is there. Now we've gotten rid of Zielinski. It's back to Trump. And Putin together. And, nobody in the white House. can see this turning out. so well for Ukraine.

This is such. an astonishing idea that because Donald Trump. is paranoid about people. exploring more about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, that he is prepared to sacrifice. large chunks of landmass of Ukraine. Yes. No, exactly. I mean, this is I mean, so again, the drumbeat,

the Epstein drumbeat is real. It is unceasing, and it is threatening most of all to Donald Trump. And and what is it? I mean, we we ran tapes that you had of your interviews with Jeffrey Epstein. when he invited you to write a biography of him. Before I think anybody knew. the extent of his underage, sex ring.

And he said. he and Donald Trump were best friends for ten years. What what is at the heart of the relationship. that Donald Trump, who has run. roughshod through the last ten years? What is it that he's so frightened about coming out? I mean, he said himself, I could stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot people. Nobody would care. Now they seem to care now. MAGA does seem to care. How is he played this wrong? And what is he so afraid? Well, I mean, I think there are there are a couple of things.

I mean, yes, he could stand and shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, but it. it is arguably worse that it turns out that he, that he was. he was joined at the hip. for years and years and years with someone who we now understand. to be the worst person on earth, the most diabolical. and, that person and, and you can build a portrait.

of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein as the same persons very. You know, they were interested in the same things. Girls, mysterious sources of income. Yes. You know, girls and money. That's basically what they were. What, the sex money. They were interested in sex money models. Yeah. You know, these were, you know, and they were. they were proud of their closeness and, and their misbehave.

You just say looseness? I did. Is it is that supposed to be looseness? I would say louche. You say louche. New Jersey Loesch okay. No, I've never heard of the word like, you say low, I say louche. And. so I mean, I think that that. is, that is truly threatening it. And, and there also is the business stuff, you know, behind everything that Trump has tried to obscure. for, for many, many years is, is his business.

dealings, his tax dealings, his, which we've still never seen his tax return. So I think all of that underlies Jeffrey Epstein. But then this other thing, too, is that the MAGA people, remember, the MAGA people have have built. Jeffrey Epstein up to represent. the thing that they hate most, which is, which is this. specter of a group of, of elites running the world and,

you know, creating a world. in which no one else has agency but these elites. So suddenly you have a thing where it turns, turns out, you know, and yes, I mean, Bill Clinton is connected to Epstein, a long list of people, but no one is as closely. connected to Epstein, to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump. Okay.

So no one is as closely connected to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump. I'm very curious about this idea that the Russians and Putin in particular, have some form of kompromat on Donald Trump. And as we know and as we've talked about before on the podcast, and you've mentioned he sent in his golfing buddy. and real estate buddy Steve Wyckoff to negotiate with Putin. He's had full meetings with the Russians. He won't take anybody else in. He insists on doing it on his own.

So we have no idea what they actually talked about. Where does the conversation on Friday? Well, let me, let me let me give some additional background here. And let me go to Steve Bannon. And Steve Bannon is an interesting I think I will continue to bring up Steve. because Steve, when he is telling the truth, is incredibly insightful. What does that mean when he's telling you from. do you have well, when Steve in public will be the defender of Donald Trump.

and be the, you know, the ultimate MAGA guy. And in private, he is he, he eviscerates Donald Trump. and tears him down and, and and actually, I think understands him. So and I know the private. the private, Steve Bannon matter of fact, I know it so well that I wrote about it and then got him got got Steve cast.

out of the Trump circle and he has worked his way, back into it. But but let's go to what he actually said because it's, it's, you know, to me, invariably insightful and incredibly smart about Trump. And I was with Steve. in Europe when Trump met. Putin for a one on one. meeting in Helsinki in 2018.

I was with Steve Bannon and I were in Europe together. So we we witnessed the press conference. that that happened after that, that meeting. Now, I also know the background. to that meeting is, is that Trump refused to prepare for it. Course he did. And and then refused to have anyone else in the meeting. So it was just it was just Putin, Trump and the translators and, and they came out of that, that meeting.

I think that meeting may have lasted an hour. and a half, two hours, something like that. It came out of that meeting I'm with, with Bannon. And we're seeing this press conference and and Bannon. says, my God, he looks like a beaten dog, meaning Trump. Right. And then Bannon went on to, to. to speculate what must Putin have on Trump? Although Steve's thing that he was his favorite was that they had that Putin.

had Trump's college transcript, which again have never been released. And we would love to read which which Steve said would be just the most, Trump could almost get away with everything else but the humiliation. of of his, of his, deeds at the Wharton School would, would, might, might have. And I always like to remind people he went to Wharton as an undergraduate. after doing the first couple of years at Fordham.

Yes. And also worth. pointing out that it's not Wharton School of Business. It's the undergraduate. So he did not have an MBA, right? Any rate. So, so so again, Bannon, who was one of his closest advisers, saw him coming. out of the press conference with Putin and thought Putin has something on him. He looks completely beaten up like a beaten dog. That's that's quote unquote.

My God, I can just I can hear Bannon now saying he just could not believe it. And and so anyway so we're go. we're going to repeat that one on one. Putin and and Trump in which. they are going to decide the fate of Ukraine. And I predict that the Jeffrey Epstein story will. then perhaps die down for a few days if he really does give away. large chunks of Ukraine.

And Zelensky is not part of it, that will definitely supersede the Epstein narrative. But it feels like the Epstein narrative is always going to come back. Yeah. No. And I'm in. It occurs to me, what does Putin know about. Jeffrey Epstein? Inside Trump's head? Michael Wolff, you've taken us there. We've got to escape somehow. Thank you very much. And more to come, much more.

Michael, how was that for you? Our inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head was good for me. Joanna, how was it for you? Very fun, very fun. And I think you've always said that at some point. almost everybody in America is thinking, why is he doing this? And I think that we can. come as close to answering that question. as, as as possible.

I, you know, I think because we proceed. from the point of view that you have to get inside. and the mainstream media. view of press to the glass doesn't work here. If you've been listening, thank you. Please subscribe, share this podcast and leave us a comment. We want to do episodes that are based on comments, questions, some of your theories. This is important because what does everybody at.

at at some point, many and many people at some point. every day say, why is he doing this? Why is this happening? How did this happen? This is what we ought to come. close, certainly closer, I think, than anyone else. has to answering those questions. All right. I will see you later in the week. You will.

Thank you to our producers, Devin. Roger Reno, Anna Von Ersan, and our editor, Jesse Millwood.